September 2, 2025 • 40 mins
What happens when early childhood experiences shape your leadership presence as an adult? In this episode of The Right Kind of Uncomfortable, Emma Hayes, Chief Learning and Engagement Officer at State Employees’ Credit Union of North Carolina, shares how a painful moment in first grade set her on a path of self-protection, purpose, and ultimately, transformation.
Emma opens up about the unseen weight many leaders carry, from cultural expectations around food and wellness to the pressures of perception in professional spaces. Her story is both deeply personal and widely relatable for anyone navigating leadership, authenticity, and growth.
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SPEAKER_01 (00:05):
If you happen to have a professional life in
finance or perhaps in the creditunion space, and even more
particular in North Carolina, myguess is you know our next
guest.
Her name is Emma Hayes, and shehas a vibrant history and a
great personality, full ofenergy and pep and verve.
And I'm really looking forwardto you enjoying what she has to
(00:25):
share with us about what shecalls the trauma in first grade.
Lots of good lessons, lots ofgood life lessons, but also
those that can be related toleadership, fellowship, and
teams.
Take a listen.
I think you're gonna enjoy thisone.
Okay, so welcome to the rightkind of uncomfortable.
Emma has joined us to talk alittle bit about one her, her
particular journey, herprofessional journey, and how it
(00:48):
and the lessons from it can helpus all grow in meaningful ways.
But before we get kicked off, Iwant to ask her to introduce
herself in her own way.
SPEAKER_00 (00:56):
Thank you for the opportunity.
So excited to be here and sharewith your audience.
I'll just start with a simple Iam.
I am the youngest of three, theonly girl.
I am the eldest granddaughterand the namesake of my father's
(01:18):
mother.
I am a southern bell and all thethings that come with that.
I am a giver.
I am a loving sister, aunt,cousin, loyal friend.
Um, and I am a passionateperson, and if I'm not
(01:41):
passionate about it, I don't doit.
So that's in a nutshell who Iam.
Uh I am also the chief learningand engagement officer for State
Employees Credit Union of NorthCarolina.
Uh, in partnership with AACUC, Iserve as their chief diversity
officer.
And uh I am above all, I am apeople and planet advocate.
(02:06):
So however I can help to bettereither of those two sign me up.
SPEAKER_01 (02:13):
So my first follow-up question.
Um, you said you're yourfather's mother's namesake.
What does that mean in yourfamily?
SPEAKER_00 (02:24):
My grandmother is um a legend in our community.
She was the safe haven for a lotof people.
She fed the community.
My grandmother's house wasdirectly across the street from
the church, literally across thestreet from the church.
(02:46):
And so people would leave thechurch on Sunday, and a lot of
them took their families acrossthe street to be fed.
Um, she helped a lot ofdifferent communities develop
programs for young people to beeducated.
(03:07):
She was very, very vocal in ourschool system.
During a time when they wereintegrating the schools, she was
one of those parents that was inthe forefront of that fight for
equal opportunity and equalaccess.
Uh, she also is such a lovingperson.
(03:31):
Uh, her love and passion forpeople still lives on.
And all of the people whoselives she touched, um, she has
made an extremely huge impact,and they continue to tell of her
legacy.
And so for me, what does thatmean?
It means huge shoes to fill.
I spend a lot of my time makingsure that I don't disappoint
(03:54):
her.
So uh growing up, I would hearthat from echoed from my aunts
and uncles, you know, don'tdisgrace the family's name.
Again, I'm from I'm from thecountry, so Southern Bell.
Um, but it meant something.
It meant something to be mygrandmother's namesake.
Uh, when I said my name, peopleknew who I was, first and last
(04:16):
name matched.
So they knew who I was.
And they would they would comeback with, oh, I know your
people.
And I knew what that meant.
That meant behave yourself, uh,be on your P's and Q's.
SPEAKER_01 (04:26):
It also sounds like giving is the family business.
SPEAKER_00 (04:31):
Servant leadership.
That's my grandmother was aservant above all.
She served in her community, sheserved in her family, uh, she
served in our church.
Um, it was just not what shedid, it was just who she was.
SPEAKER_01 (04:44):
So you and I met in connection to AACUC African
American Credit Union Coalition.
And on the stage there, youtalked about your journey, and
part of your journey is yourjourney with fitness.
So, most of us, like when itcomes to fitness or academics or
professionalism, we see thefinished product, but there's a
(05:05):
path to get there.
How would you describe yourfitness journey?
SPEAKER_00 (05:11):
Back to my grandmother, she was also an
amazing cook and a baker.
So she had an insatiable sweettooth.
So she cooked dessert with everymeal.
So whether it was some kind ofsweet biscuit with breakfast or
pound cake with dinner, we hadsomething sweet all the time.
(05:35):
Um, and because of it,naturally, there is this
inclination to be heavierbecause we didn't eat a lot of
um pause.
Because we indulged in foodsthat were sometimes high in
sugar, um, very carb dense.
(05:57):
Um we were not that rich, so wedidn't eat a lot of protein.
Protein costs more than a bag offlour.
Uh, so we we tend to be a bithealthier, voluptuous even.
Um, and so it was a mindsetshift for me.
So my journey started withchanging, changing my mind about
(06:22):
my relationship with food.
Food used to be something that Iwould reward myself with.
It was kind of when you're akid, you do something good, they
give you ice cream.
And so you start to form thesehabits really early in age, and
I had to change and shift thatmindset so that food wasn't fun,
(06:43):
food was for function.
And now I eat to fuel and um notfor fun.
And so that's a part of thejourney is making it a
lifestyle, not just a diet.
It's not just dieting, diet issomething you turn on and off,
but I literally had changed mymindset so that it's a decision
(07:05):
with every meal, um, with everymorning when I wake up.
My mindset is around how do Ifuel the body so that it gives
me what I need and I give itwhat it needs.
SPEAKER_01 (07:18):
Would you say that when your mindset shifted or as
it was shifting, that what yousaw in the mirror um was to your
liking?
And I say that sort of in thisbroad context of we got body
image stuff that is happening uhboth with men and women, perhaps
differently, however, in termsof how it's uh received and how
(07:39):
it's given.
But did you your mind was in thebeginning with X, and you look
in the mirror and you say, okay,this is what I see, and this is
how I feel about it.
Then my mind starts to shift.
This is what I see, this is howI feel about it.
Would you were you would is lifeeven the right word to describe
that?
How would you put that together?
SPEAKER_00 (07:57):
I think when I first started my journey, I didn't
have no clue.
I didn't know that I was asunhealthy as I was.
I didn't know.
Um, it was normal in my familyto be heavier.
In fact, when I started losingweight, my family was concerned.
They I got calls from my familymembers saying, Are you okay?
(08:20):
Are you what's wrong?
Um, you don't seem to be eating.
Food is how we show love.
SPEAKER_01 (08:26):
Were you heavy or were you just heavier?
SPEAKER_00 (08:30):
I was um heavier.
Um, but in my mind, I was fit, Iwas healthy, I was, you know,
like every other person.
There wasn't, I couldn't tell adifference between me and
(08:50):
someone a size 10.
I clearly wasn't a size 10, um,but I was I I could stand to
lose a few pounds.
SPEAKER_01 (09:01):
We have all these um kinder, gentler words.
Kinder, gentler words, fluffy,um, uh uh juicy, um, all of
these words, but I, you know, II wonder sometimes if these
words are keep the person thatwe're using it towards, even if
it's the person in the mirror,from seeing the rest of the
(09:21):
story.
SPEAKER_00 (09:22):
Yeah, I think for a very long time I drew a lot of
comfort from the fact that it'snot that bad.
Oh, this isn't that bad.
And to the point that I didn'teven notice that the sizes were
changing.
The sizes changed from eight toten to twelve to fourteen.
(09:43):
Like I it didn't register.
And then one day I you I lookedin the mirror and I was like,
wow, my my hips are wide.
Um, wow, I I can't wear, I justI just got this, I can't wear
it.
SPEAKER_01 (09:59):
Um, but it was- would you have said my hips are
wide, or were you thinking myhips are too wide for that
dress?
Too wide.
Is it was it too, or was it justuh I'm making some moves here.
I'm I've grown.
SPEAKER_00 (10:14):
It was it was the latter.
It was, oh, my hips are wide, ormy hips are wider, right?
Than they were, and that's mecomparing me to me, to a former
version of me.
Retrospect, hindsight, lookingat the me that I was when I
started this journey.
(10:35):
I was I was I was a big girl,like I was in a size 16, headed
to 18.
And for me, and the frame thatI'm in, and the way that I felt
like and and by felt like I itwas getting difficult to breathe
while I'm tying my shoes.
It was um it my back startedhurting, my knees started
(11:00):
hurting, like I was starting tofeel the impact of the weight
that I was carrying on my jointsand on my body, and all the
weight that I was carryingwasn't just physical weight I
was carrying, mental andemotional weight, which was
masked in what I was eating.
SPEAKER_01 (11:21):
And so you get to the tipping point where you
decide to make some decision.
What did that day look like?
SPEAKER_00 (11:28):
That day, I will never forget that day.
I went to the doctor.
It was my annual, it was myregular appointment.
I went to my doctor and he saidto me, Um, he took my blood
pressure.
Uh actually, you know, justbefore you go back, they take
your blood pressure.
And so I hadn't seen my doctoryet.
It was just me, um, intake.
They took my blood pressure, andshe was like, Hold on.
(11:51):
Because she's got the chart, soshe knows what it should be.
She looked at it and she waslike, Hold on, let me take that
again.
And she took it again.
She took it three times, andthen she put me in a room, in a
dark room, a dark, quiet room.
SPEAKER_01 (12:06):
Did it was it actually dark, or we just was it
like, was this this this yourspirit was not feeling good?
SPEAKER_00 (12:13):
It was rainy, so it was gray and cloudy, and so
outside was dark, which matchedbecause there wasn't a lot of
sunlight coming in.
Uh, so it was gray and dark andcloudy, and uh the lights, for
whatever reason, this day seemeda lot dimmer.
And it was probably me and whereI was in that moment, but the
(12:35):
lights seemed a lot dimmer.
And she told me, she said, I'mgonna come back and take it
again in about 10 minutes.
And at that moment, I knewsomething had to be wrong.
So when she came back to takeit, she said, Your blood
pressure is high.
Um, the doctor's gonna come inand talk to you, but I'm going
(12:56):
to need for it to come downbefore we allow you to drive
home.
Wow.
So we're gonna give you quiettime and we're gonna see if
there is something that istriggering, because it could be
white coat syndrome, if there'ssomething triggering this
response that's spiking yourblood pressure.
And she came back and it hadgone down just a little.
(13:19):
Um, after the doctor came in, heshared with me that he thought
he was gonna have to put me onmedication.
SPEAKER_01 (13:25):
So the the dark room was actually a version of a
quiet room because we need tocalm all this down.
Maybe something happened,whether it's the white coat I'm
wearing, or you had a tough dayat work, or something, and we
need just to how did that it wasthat sounds a bit scary?
SPEAKER_00 (13:42):
It was it was um scary, but it was extremely
eye-opening because both of myparents have are or were at the
time medicated to treat uh highblood pressure, and so um I
thought to myself, it'ssomething I can control.
(14:06):
Um, I can control my stresslevel to a certain degree, I can
control my eating, uh, I cancontrol exercise.
These are things that wouldimpact my health, my blood
pressure.
SPEAKER_01 (14:23):
All of this was in your head during the quiet time.
SPEAKER_00 (14:25):
During the quiet time, during the quiet time when
she already she previewed for mewhat might be coming my way.
And that's when I thought tomyself, I gotta get this
together.
So he came in ready to write mea prescription because this was
my second time where he saw anincrease.
The first time it wasn't thatbad, but this at this point, it
(14:46):
was to the point where he waslike, We're gonna have to write
you a prescription.
And I asked him, Can you give methree months?
Give me three months, and if Icome back and my blood pressure
hasn't improved, we'll do it.
But I believe I can I can changesome things, and I went home and
I uh I changed some things.
SPEAKER_01 (15:07):
What happened in three months?
SPEAKER_00 (15:09):
Three months, my blood pressure went back down to
um so I will my diastolic at thetime was 110.
My systolic at the time was 180,so I was 180 over 110, which is
extremely high for someone at myage, and my age at the time was
(15:29):
so I came back in 90 days.
Um whereas my systolic had been180, my diastolic was 110, it
came down to 120 over 90, and itwas steadily on the decline, and
he was like, Okay, whatever youdid, keep going in that
(15:50):
direction.
SPEAKER_01 (15:51):
And so it was about those numbers, not really the
weight per se, it's about theseother key numbers that he was
like, I'm worried, right?
As opposed to your overallweight per se, I'm focusing on
that.
It was these other things.
SPEAKER_00 (16:05):
Oh, he wasn't focused on the weight at all.
I wasn't focused on the weightat all.
I hadn't seen myself, and sothat day I went home, I started
making some changes, but I alsotook a picture.
I took a picture of myself, andI contacted a coach because
believe it or not, I was in thegym every day.
(16:26):
I was training people, I wasteaching classes, so I was
teaching in the class about 20hours a week at the gym.
I was teaching gym classes, bootcamp, aqua aerobics, all the
things about 20 hours a week.
I was doing all of that at thatweight with those numbers.
SPEAKER_01 (16:46):
That makes it more scary.
SPEAKER_00 (16:48):
That's why it was so scary.
That makes it way more scary.
That's why it was so scarybecause I thought I was doing
all the right things.
Um, but I'd noticed, yeah, Istarted having headaches, my
back, I started seeing littlespots, and they were all
indicators.
SPEAKER_01 (17:04):
And so was it a give me the top two or three changes
that you made that led to eitheryour 90-day success story and
then the continuing workthereafter?
SPEAKER_00 (17:17):
I stopped I minimized my concern for things
outside of my purview.
SPEAKER_01 (17:24):
Okay, including people.
So that's the sort of mental,emotional, uh stress component.
SPEAKER_00 (17:31):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (17:32):
I gotta get some some people further away from
me, some things further awayfrom some responsibilities
further away from me.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (17:38):
Uh, and then I changed my diet.
SPEAKER_01 (17:41):
I cut salt, I cut sugar to zero by 90%, 70%?
SPEAKER_00 (17:46):
I cut salt a hundred percent.
I didn't okay, and let me sayadded salt.
I didn't add salt to anything,and I didn't use anything that
had salt as an ingredient.
Then I cut sugar, so I didn'tadd sugar to anything because
almost everything we eat alreadyhas sugar in it, so I didn't add
(18:09):
any sugar to anything, and Ididn't eat anything that was
sugar-based, so no desserts, nocut the sugar.
Dairy stopped with the dairy, soum I already didn't eat ice
cream, but there were some otherthings I like creamer in my
coffee, uh, cut back oncaffeine, cut back the caffeine,
uh, went from drinking coffee totea, uh, like literally
(18:33):
overnight made some changes.
Um, but the biggest change Iwould have to say that I made
was really managing my stresslevel.
SPEAKER_01 (18:40):
So you gave those those two things, uh, first
being additive stressors wasnumber one.
Number two is thenutrition-related pieces.
So when I think about, so youtalk about the disconnecting or
creating distance betweenpeople, places, and things,
right?
Part of your work requires theability to connect genuinely
(19:02):
across all kinds of differences,and some of those differences to
your point of what people eat orwhat their scores are are
unseen.
So, what are your thoughts onthe most critical unseen barrier
that you have had to work withpeople around?
SPEAKER_00 (19:21):
Perception.
The biggest barrier I've had todeal with is perception.
People think they know you.
People think they knowthemselves.
Um, but for the most part,people think they know you, so
they come to conversations, theycome into a relationship with a
certain expectation that theydon't articulate, even a
(19:47):
business relationship.
They come in with expectationsthat they don't articulate.
So for me, it is extremelyimportant that I spend time
level setting and laying forthexpectations, setting
boundaries, um being completelyopen, honest, transparent about
(20:10):
what the expectations should beso that it helps people
understand what they are goingto get from me.
SPEAKER_01 (20:21):
And the hope then is I guess because you're role
modeling this then, that I orthey would say, Okay, that's
what you want from me or fromthis experience.
This is what I want from you andthis experience, and we have
some meeting of the minds,hopefully.
That's the hope.
SPEAKER_00 (20:36):
That's the hope, but it's also articulated.
I will say, hey, I will tell youwhat I need from you.
I need you to do the same forme.
SPEAKER_01 (20:45):
Do people do that?
SPEAKER_00 (20:46):
Not always.
And I think part of the reasonwhy they don't do it is because
they don't really know how toarticulate, or they don't
believe that I'm beingcompletely honest with them when
I say say that.
Say say what you need.
I I'm not a mind reader, um, soI don't know.
Um in some instances, we haven'thad enough interactions for me
(21:07):
to know your cues.
So give me a little time andopportunity.
Um, but I really just I need youto lay it out on the table.
SPEAKER_01 (21:17):
Do you think that people who are more seasoned in
their careers are morecomfortable sharing?
Or do you think in today's sortof nouveau environment where
some of our younger colleagueshave gotten very comfortable
expressing themselves since theywere infants, are more
comfortable saying, This is whatI need or I think I need?
(21:37):
Who's generationally, who'sbetter?
SPEAKER_00 (21:40):
I think that's an interesting perspective to put
it in to kind of look at it fromthat view, from that lens,
because I think it's justperson-dependent.
I think there are some peoplewho are extremely self-aware at
an early age, and there are somepeople who are extremely
(22:04):
self-aware as they mature, butacross the spectrum are people
who are completely unaware, andthat's the difference.
SPEAKER_01 (22:16):
So, speaking of being unaware, or potentially
unaware, let's pretend that youhave the superpower being able
to go back in time.
And you go back and you findlittle Emma at whatever age you
want to choose, and you tap heron the shoulder and you can
whisper in her ear, it.
(22:36):
What age, Emma, are we talkingto?
Okay.
And what are you telling her?
SPEAKER_00 (22:40):
I'm talking to Emma between the ages of four and
six.
Okay.
Between four and six, my parentsdivorced.
Um, we'd lived across the streetfrom my grandmother.
We lived in a community that wasonly family, um, like for a few
(23:03):
miles around was only family.
Um, and it was extremelycomfortable.
I knew everyone.
Um we moved between four andsix, and we moved to a new
community, further away from thefamily, into a community where
we didn't know, I didn't know asa child, a lot of other kids,
(23:25):
uh, which meant I had to moveschools, so I became the new kid
in school.
Um, and my brother is an extremeextrovert, so he makes friends
really easy.
He's also a clown, so he makespeople laugh and people love
him.
I, on the other hand, I'm a bitmore of an introvert.
(23:48):
I spend time building deeprelationships, few deep
relationships instead of a lotof surface broad relationships.
And at that age, in the firstgrade, it's just that's a hard
place to be, to be the new kid.
But I would I would go back toher and I would say to her to
(24:11):
trust herself, don't shrink anddon't let people box you in.
SPEAKER_01 (24:20):
What did shrinking look like for her?
From the outside looking in,what what were the symptoms that
little Emma is shrinking whenshe was asked a question, when
she walked in the room?
What is that look like?
SPEAKER_00 (24:36):
So going back to first grade, I was the tallest
person.
There was one kid in my classwho was a low boy who was taller
than me.
So I was I haven't grown much instatue since the sixth grade.
That's so I was essentially thisheight in the sixth grade.
Um, so I was really tall in thefirst grade, so I stood out
(24:58):
automatically.
Um and I they they called meteacher's pet because I enjoyed
conversations with the teacher,um, responding to the questions
from the homework that we had todo.
Um, and so as the students inthe class started making
(25:24):
assumptions about what thatmeant and started calling me
outside of my name and taggingme, it made me stop doing some
of those things, or it made mepurposely answer the question
wrong or not answer at all.
Um, so that I could put myselfin more favorable light with
(25:47):
with some of the students.
Um, it made me less apt to buildthose relationships and share um
openly with my classmates who Iwas in terms of what I liked and
what I didn't like, or so Ididn't give them opportunities
to know me.
So I started to pull back fromthe first grade all the way
(26:11):
through until I graduated highschool.
Wow.
Because I went to school withthat same set of the same group
of people all the way throughhigh school.
I didn't have true friendshipsuntil I got to college.
SPEAKER_01 (26:25):
So those folks received a muted version of you,
a shrunken version of you.
unknown (26:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:33):
So in these conversations, right, kind of
uncomfortable conversations, Ilike to provide something I call
the inclusion moment or yourinclusion moment.
And I wanted you, if you don'tmind, to take a moment and tell
us a story.
A story where you're the maincharacter, and it would help a
stranger understand who you aregenuinely, authentically.
SPEAKER_00 (26:58):
So I'd have to go back to that little girl who was
in the first grade at a newschool with kids she didn't know
in an area that was unfamiliar,with no family per se in the
area, and she goes to school oneday, and all the kids in her
(27:25):
class go to recess, and theydecide that they are going to
get together and they're goingto, for all intents and
purposes, ostracize her from therest of the class.
So they go to there was a swingsand on the playground, so the
entire playground area, and justoutside of the playground area
(27:47):
was a tree line.
This is where all the shade is.
And on very hot days, most ofthe kids would try to play in
that area.
Well, they all decided to go tothat area and chant We Hate
Emma.
That's a thing.
That's a thing.
They didn't know me, they um hadnot given me an opportunity to
(28:11):
really integrate myself into theto to the class or to be a part
of what they had already grownaccustomed to as a friendship
circles.
Um, so the teacher comes over tome and she's like, Are you okay?
And everything inside me wasdying.
(28:32):
And I I looked at her and Isaid, Absolutely, I was okay.
Um, I then made it a point tostart conversations with my
teacher, and that's where Ispent my time.
And in that moment, I made up inmy mind that I would not endear
(28:57):
myself to them, that I wouldn'topen myself up, that I wouldn't
allow them to hurt me any morethan they hurt me that day.
So I started to rub some toughskin on it.
And that tough skin carried overfrom first grade through 12th
grade, through relationships,through professional, it it
(29:22):
there was trauma in that momentthat has impacted, um, impacted
how I navigate, how I navigateeven now relationships.
I'm not quick to open myself up.
So I think the lesson, the moralis understanding that even
(29:47):
early, something that theyprobably have not thought a
second about.
They never had a second thoughtabout what they did in that
moment, has been something Inever forgot.
SPEAKER_01 (30:00):
Do you think so part A of this question?
So you talk about shrinking.
So there's shrinking and thenprotecting.
Right?
Do you think that the shrinkinghappened independent of you
protecting yourself?
SPEAKER_00 (30:17):
No, I think they're they go hand in hand.
I shrunk to protect myself.
Gotcha, gotcha.
I wouldn't, I would not haveneeded to shrink had I not
needed to protect myself.
But I started shrinking in themoment to protect myself.
SPEAKER_01 (30:33):
So then my second question then is do you think
that today, whenever today is,you know, this part of this time
in your life, that thatprotective stuff or that
shrinkage stuff is visible onyou?
SPEAKER_00 (30:54):
They never saw it.
SPEAKER_01 (30:56):
Not them, but the people you're around now.
SPEAKER_00 (30:58):
The people that I'm around now wouldn't know it if
they saw it because it's becomea part of who I am and how I
navigate.
So it's there now because it hadto be there then.
And it just carried over and itgrew.
(31:22):
So it started off really smallwith okay, I'm going to not
answer the question.
Now I'm gonna answer thequestion wrong.
Now I'm gonna make myself small.
Uh and by small I mean smallerin statute.
I'm gonna try to find the othertaller people to be like it just
becomes a part of how you nav orhow I navigated.
(31:44):
And in today's world, and as Ishow up now, um I show up now
confident.
They they didn't know then thatthere was a piece of me dying,
to the point I make that evennow, if someone were to do
something, they wouldn't knowthat a piece of me was dying.
(32:06):
I would never let them see thatpart of me, even though people
do it all the time.
SPEAKER_01 (32:11):
Is there any part of you that's grateful to them for
helping to build you into whatyou are?
SPEAKER_00 (32:17):
Absolutely.
I thank them.
I had a conversation, so this isour 50th.
Every so the majority of thepeople in that class turned 50
this year.
SPEAKER_01 (32:28):
And they were also part of your graduating class.
SPEAKER_00 (32:30):
They were my graduating class.
So a part of part of that theyturned 50 this year, and several
of them have had birthdayparties and um and I've gotten
invitations, we've hadopportunities to interact, and
um we talked about that moment.
I talked about that moment andthanked them for the journey
(32:54):
that they put me on becausebefore that, I would say in the
south we call it tenderhearted,right?
I was tenderhearted, and itdidn't take much for me to show
my emotions, but in that moment,I don't know what it was about
that moment that made me realizeI couldn't allow them to see the
(33:18):
tender-heartedness because Ithought they would exploit it.
Now I didn't have language forthat at age six.
Now I know what it was, but Iknew that like every part of me
wanted to just break down andcry and let the tears flow and I
refused.
It it almost felt like I wasreaching over my own eyelids and
(33:39):
pulling the tears back andsaying, You better not, you
better not let them see you cry.
And it's it that's become a partof when people hurt me, you
better not let them see you cry,you better not let them see you
hurt, don't show them your pain.
For for whatever reason, good,bad, or indifferent, that's just
(34:00):
what it is.
Thank you for sharing.
SPEAKER_01 (34:03):
I appreciate you.
So I asked you if you might havea question for me.
SPEAKER_00 (34:08):
I do, and I wrote it down because I I did not want to
um squander this opportunity toask you a question.
And I actually I actually hadtwo.
I came up with two, and I waslike, oh, both of these are
good, and I and I wanted that tohave the chance, but it's a big
buildup.
It's a big buildup.
Okay, so so my first question iswe all have failures in our
(34:33):
lives, but I would wasinterested in knowing for you
what role does failure play inyour personal and professional
growth?
And can you share an example ofwhen failure ultimately led to a
major breakthrough ortransformation?
SPEAKER_01 (34:52):
Well, I wouldn't be good at anything had I not
failed a lot.
Like I you gotta get to be areally good friend of failure.
You know, it's gotta be afamiliar place, maybe not a
comfortable place, a place thatbrings joy and happiness, but
you know, you better getcomfortable with it if you want
to be good.
(35:13):
And if you want to be great, youbetter get real comfortable with
it.
You want to be elite, unique,that you want to be that person,
you're gonna fail a lot.
A lot.
So I hope that I have a good andhealthy relationship with
failure.
The the reality, however, is Idon't live out here by myself.
So when I fail, it impacts otherpeople.
(35:35):
And the older I've gotten andthe more I've had the
opportunity to spread my wingsand my roots have gotten a
little deeper, my failuresimpact more and more and more
people.
That concerns me a great deal.
And it reminds me of this ideaof am I willing to fail knowing
if I'm this feeling for me it'seasier if it's just gonna impact
(35:58):
me, but am I willing to risk andpotentially fail, knowing it
might impact these dozen people,these five dozen people or more?
I have to.
I have to.
I have to jump off the cliffface first.
If I gotta build something onthe way down, then so be it.
I must.
(36:18):
I mean, there's there's only somany of us that have been
blessed with time andopportunity and resources and
support mechanisms to be able tojump, to get to the top of the
cliff.
So you can jump.
So I must.
And I will do my best not tofail.
And if I do, then I'll startover.
You know, as the poem goes withworn-out tools and try to try to
(36:41):
do it again.
SPEAKER_00 (36:42):
Um, but yeah, me and failure, but so talk about that
transformational, that time whenyou failed and it was absolutely
transformational.
It changed everything.
SPEAKER_01 (36:56):
I have uh one personal, one professional.
So the personal one is my firsttime going to the national
championships in martial arts.
And um I was fit, I was fast, Iwas strong, I was all of these
things, and I knew I wascompetitive.
How competitive?
We're gonna find out, right?
So I'm in there and I'm fightingthese guys, and it's a two uh
(37:18):
double elimination.
So I lost like my second orthird fight, so I go into the
losers bracket, and I'm fightingthese folks, and um they are
beating me up.
My face is swollen.
I don't understand because allthe tournaments I went to before
this had never happened.
And so my instructor walks by,and there's no coaching allowed,
but I had a minute in between,I'm getting myself together, and
(37:41):
I said, Um, you know, Sensei, Idon't I don't understand.
They're they're hitting me inthe face hard.
And uh the rules say light facecontact allowed.
And he said, Are they hittingyou in the face lightly?
I said, No.
He says, Well, that must be thedefinition of light today.
Then he walked off.
(38:01):
And so I said, Okay, let mesettle in.
It means I'm gonna have to hitpeople hard.
And if they're not seeing thepoint, then I gotta knock you
out.
These are the rules of the gamethat I have chosen to play.
So I make it the fight for firstand second.
I've lost once, and then the guythat I had to beat, he had lost
zero times.
I have to beat him twice, he'sgonna beat me once.
He mocked the floor with me.
(38:24):
I mean, he embarrassed me.
SPEAKER_00 (38:26):
Oh wow.
SPEAKER_01 (38:27):
Oh yeah.
He I was when you say failure,there's it's like I didn't even
have any skills.
That's how badly he beat me.
And, you know, I pick myself upafterwards, you know, I get my
silver medal, and I'm like, I'mjust not I'm not ready.
It was a year later when he toldme why he handled me that way.
(38:49):
He says, I watched you, and if Iyou had any thought that you
might win, you might win.
So I have to take from you, Ihave to take hope from you.
I have to take it right now.
There's no time to wait.
And he did.
So from that failure, it waslike, okay, I have to recognize
there's certain things you can'ttake from me.
(39:10):
Like our grandmamas may havetaught us, you get educated that
can't take it from you.
Get this.
If you get hope, you can't letthem take that from you either.
Had I kept hope, I might havehad a shot.
But as soon as he took that, Iwas toast.
SPEAKER_00 (39:27):
Wow.
All right, quickly.
The second one was societalnorms.
Like this work that we do reallyis to provide access.
So when we think when you thinkabout societal norms, what is
one norm, one societal norm thatyou would change?
Um and why?
(39:49):
Because you know, on a broaderscale, if you think about the
communities that we are here toserve.
SPEAKER_01 (39:55):
A societal norm.
That somehow we're different.
People go in looking for thedifference.
You're taller, you're shorter,you're Baptist, I'm Muslim.
You're from the states, I'm fromCanada.
(40:15):
They're looking for thedifference instead of letting
the norm be.
Let's talk about how we're thesame.
SPEAKER_00 (40:23):
I like that.
I like that.
Well, thank you.
I appreciate you for indulgingme in my two questions.
SPEAKER_01 (40:28):
And thank you for joining me on our podcast, The
Right Kind of Uncomfortable.
I'm really uh deeplyappreciative that you peeled
back the onion layers all theway back to first grade.
All the way back to first gradeand the trauma.
First grade and the trauma.
That that could be the title ofthis one.
Well, we'll have to think.
SPEAKER_00 (40:45):
Well, thank you.
Thank you.
If you happen to have a professional life in
finance or perhaps in the creditunion space, and even more
particular in North Carolina, myguess is you know our next
guest.
Her name is Emma Hayes, and shehas a vibrant history and a
great personality, full ofenergy and pep and verve.
And I'm really looking forwardto you enjoying what she has to
(00:25):
share with us about what shecalls the trauma in first grade.
Lots of good lessons, lots ofgood life lessons, but also
those that can be related toleadership, fellowship, and
teams.
Take a listen.
I think you're gonna enjoy thisone.
Okay, so welcome to the rightkind of uncomfortable.
Emma has joined us to talk alittle bit about one her, her
particular journey, herprofessional journey, and how it
(00:48):
and the lessons from it can helpus all grow in meaningful ways.
But before we get kicked off, Iwant to ask her to introduce
herself in her own way.
SPEAKER_00 (00:56):
Thank you for the opportunity.
So excited to be here and sharewith your audience.
I'll just start with a simple Iam.
I am the youngest of three, theonly girl.
I am the eldest granddaughterand the namesake of my father's
(01:18):
mother.
I am a southern bell and all thethings that come with that.
I am a giver.
I am a loving sister, aunt,cousin, loyal friend.
Um, and I am a passionateperson, and if I'm not
(01:41):
passionate about it, I don't doit.
So that's in a nutshell who Iam.
Uh I am also the chief learningand engagement officer for State
Employees Credit Union of NorthCarolina.
Uh, in partnership with AACUC, Iserve as their chief diversity
officer.
And uh I am above all, I am apeople and planet advocate.
(02:06):
So however I can help to bettereither of those two sign me up.
SPEAKER_01 (02:13):
So my first follow-up question.
Um, you said you're yourfather's mother's namesake.
What does that mean in yourfamily?
SPEAKER_00 (02:24):
My grandmother is um a legend in our community.
She was the safe haven for a lotof people.
She fed the community.
My grandmother's house wasdirectly across the street from
the church, literally across thestreet from the church.
(02:46):
And so people would leave thechurch on Sunday, and a lot of
them took their families acrossthe street to be fed.
Um, she helped a lot ofdifferent communities develop
programs for young people to beeducated.
(03:07):
She was very, very vocal in ourschool system.
During a time when they wereintegrating the schools, she was
one of those parents that was inthe forefront of that fight for
equal opportunity and equalaccess.
Uh, she also is such a lovingperson.
(03:31):
Uh, her love and passion forpeople still lives on.
And all of the people whoselives she touched, um, she has
made an extremely huge impact,and they continue to tell of her
legacy.
And so for me, what does thatmean?
It means huge shoes to fill.
I spend a lot of my time makingsure that I don't disappoint
(03:54):
her.
So uh growing up, I would hearthat from echoed from my aunts
and uncles, you know, don'tdisgrace the family's name.
Again, I'm from I'm from thecountry, so Southern Bell.
Um, but it meant something.
It meant something to be mygrandmother's namesake.
Uh, when I said my name, peopleknew who I was, first and last
(04:16):
name matched.
So they knew who I was.
And they would they would comeback with, oh, I know your
people.
And I knew what that meant.
That meant behave yourself, uh,be on your P's and Q's.
SPEAKER_01 (04:26):
It also sounds like giving is the family business.
SPEAKER_00 (04:31):
Servant leadership.
That's my grandmother was aservant above all.
She served in her community, sheserved in her family, uh, she
served in our church.
Um, it was just not what shedid, it was just who she was.
SPEAKER_01 (04:44):
So you and I met in connection to AACUC African
American Credit Union Coalition.
And on the stage there, youtalked about your journey, and
part of your journey is yourjourney with fitness.
So, most of us, like when itcomes to fitness or academics or
professionalism, we see thefinished product, but there's a
(05:05):
path to get there.
How would you describe yourfitness journey?
SPEAKER_00 (05:11):
Back to my grandmother, she was also an
amazing cook and a baker.
So she had an insatiable sweettooth.
So she cooked dessert with everymeal.
So whether it was some kind ofsweet biscuit with breakfast or
pound cake with dinner, we hadsomething sweet all the time.
(05:35):
Um, and because of it,naturally, there is this
inclination to be heavierbecause we didn't eat a lot of
um pause.
Because we indulged in foodsthat were sometimes high in
sugar, um, very carb dense.
(05:57):
Um we were not that rich, so wedidn't eat a lot of protein.
Protein costs more than a bag offlour.
Uh, so we we tend to be a bithealthier, voluptuous even.
Um, and so it was a mindsetshift for me.
So my journey started withchanging, changing my mind about
(06:22):
my relationship with food.
Food used to be something that Iwould reward myself with.
It was kind of when you're akid, you do something good, they
give you ice cream.
And so you start to form thesehabits really early in age, and
I had to change and shift thatmindset so that food wasn't fun,
(06:43):
food was for function.
And now I eat to fuel and um notfor fun.
And so that's a part of thejourney is making it a
lifestyle, not just a diet.
It's not just dieting, diet issomething you turn on and off,
but I literally had changed mymindset so that it's a decision
(07:05):
with every meal, um, with everymorning when I wake up.
My mindset is around how do Ifuel the body so that it gives
me what I need and I give itwhat it needs.
SPEAKER_01 (07:18):
Would you say that when your mindset shifted or as
it was shifting, that what yousaw in the mirror um was to your
liking?
And I say that sort of in thisbroad context of we got body
image stuff that is happening uhboth with men and women, perhaps
differently, however, in termsof how it's uh received and how
(07:39):
it's given.
But did you your mind was in thebeginning with X, and you look
in the mirror and you say, okay,this is what I see, and this is
how I feel about it.
Then my mind starts to shift.
This is what I see, this is howI feel about it.
Would you were you would is lifeeven the right word to describe
that?
How would you put that together?
SPEAKER_00 (07:57):
I think when I first started my journey, I didn't
have no clue.
I didn't know that I was asunhealthy as I was.
I didn't know.
Um, it was normal in my familyto be heavier.
In fact, when I started losingweight, my family was concerned.
They I got calls from my familymembers saying, Are you okay?
(08:20):
Are you what's wrong?
Um, you don't seem to be eating.
Food is how we show love.
SPEAKER_01 (08:26):
Were you heavy or were you just heavier?
SPEAKER_00 (08:30):
I was um heavier.
Um, but in my mind, I was fit, Iwas healthy, I was, you know,
like every other person.
There wasn't, I couldn't tell adifference between me and
(08:50):
someone a size 10.
I clearly wasn't a size 10, um,but I was I I could stand to
lose a few pounds.
SPEAKER_01 (09:01):
We have all these um kinder, gentler words.
Kinder, gentler words, fluffy,um, uh uh juicy, um, all of
these words, but I, you know, II wonder sometimes if these
words are keep the person thatwe're using it towards, even if
it's the person in the mirror,from seeing the rest of the
(09:21):
story.
SPEAKER_00 (09:22):
Yeah, I think for a very long time I drew a lot of
comfort from the fact that it'snot that bad.
Oh, this isn't that bad.
And to the point that I didn'teven notice that the sizes were
changing.
The sizes changed from eight toten to twelve to fourteen.
(09:43):
Like I it didn't register.
And then one day I you I lookedin the mirror and I was like,
wow, my my hips are wide.
Um, wow, I I can't wear, I justI just got this, I can't wear
it.
SPEAKER_01 (09:59):
Um, but it was- would you have said my hips are
wide, or were you thinking myhips are too wide for that
dress?
Too wide.
Is it was it too, or was it justuh I'm making some moves here.
I'm I've grown.
SPEAKER_00 (10:14):
It was it was the latter.
It was, oh, my hips are wide, ormy hips are wider, right?
Than they were, and that's mecomparing me to me, to a former
version of me.
Retrospect, hindsight, lookingat the me that I was when I
started this journey.
(10:35):
I was I was I was a big girl,like I was in a size 16, headed
to 18.
And for me, and the frame thatI'm in, and the way that I felt
like and and by felt like I itwas getting difficult to breathe
while I'm tying my shoes.
It was um it my back startedhurting, my knees started
(11:00):
hurting, like I was starting tofeel the impact of the weight
that I was carrying on my jointsand on my body, and all the
weight that I was carryingwasn't just physical weight I
was carrying, mental andemotional weight, which was
masked in what I was eating.
SPEAKER_01 (11:21):
And so you get to the tipping point where you
decide to make some decision.
What did that day look like?
SPEAKER_00 (11:28):
That day, I will never forget that day.
I went to the doctor.
It was my annual, it was myregular appointment.
I went to my doctor and he saidto me, Um, he took my blood
pressure.
Uh actually, you know, justbefore you go back, they take
your blood pressure.
And so I hadn't seen my doctoryet.
It was just me, um, intake.
They took my blood pressure, andshe was like, Hold on.
(11:51):
Because she's got the chart, soshe knows what it should be.
She looked at it and she waslike, Hold on, let me take that
again.
And she took it again.
She took it three times, andthen she put me in a room, in a
dark room, a dark, quiet room.
SPEAKER_01 (12:06):
Did it was it actually dark, or we just was it
like, was this this this yourspirit was not feeling good?
SPEAKER_00 (12:13):
It was rainy, so it was gray and cloudy, and so
outside was dark, which matchedbecause there wasn't a lot of
sunlight coming in.
Uh, so it was gray and dark andcloudy, and uh the lights, for
whatever reason, this day seemeda lot dimmer.
And it was probably me and whereI was in that moment, but the
(12:35):
lights seemed a lot dimmer.
And she told me, she said, I'mgonna come back and take it
again in about 10 minutes.
And at that moment, I knewsomething had to be wrong.
So when she came back to takeit, she said, Your blood
pressure is high.
Um, the doctor's gonna come inand talk to you, but I'm going
(12:56):
to need for it to come downbefore we allow you to drive
home.
Wow.
So we're gonna give you quiettime and we're gonna see if
there is something that istriggering, because it could be
white coat syndrome, if there'ssomething triggering this
response that's spiking yourblood pressure.
And she came back and it hadgone down just a little.
(13:19):
Um, after the doctor came in, heshared with me that he thought
he was gonna have to put me onmedication.
SPEAKER_01 (13:25):
So the the dark room was actually a version of a
quiet room because we need tocalm all this down.
Maybe something happened,whether it's the white coat I'm
wearing, or you had a tough dayat work, or something, and we
need just to how did that it wasthat sounds a bit scary?
SPEAKER_00 (13:42):
It was it was um scary, but it was extremely
eye-opening because both of myparents have are or were at the
time medicated to treat uh highblood pressure, and so um I
thought to myself, it'ssomething I can control.
(14:06):
Um, I can control my stresslevel to a certain degree, I can
control my eating, uh, I cancontrol exercise.
These are things that wouldimpact my health, my blood
pressure.
SPEAKER_01 (14:23):
All of this was in your head during the quiet time.
SPEAKER_00 (14:25):
During the quiet time, during the quiet time when
she already she previewed for mewhat might be coming my way.
And that's when I thought tomyself, I gotta get this
together.
So he came in ready to write mea prescription because this was
my second time where he saw anincrease.
The first time it wasn't thatbad, but this at this point, it
(14:46):
was to the point where he waslike, We're gonna have to write
you a prescription.
And I asked him, Can you give methree months?
Give me three months, and if Icome back and my blood pressure
hasn't improved, we'll do it.
But I believe I can I can changesome things, and I went home and
I uh I changed some things.
SPEAKER_01 (15:07):
What happened in three months?
SPEAKER_00 (15:09):
Three months, my blood pressure went back down to
um so I will my diastolic at thetime was 110.
My systolic at the time was 180,so I was 180 over 110, which is
extremely high for someone at myage, and my age at the time was
(15:29):
so I came back in 90 days.
Um whereas my systolic had been180, my diastolic was 110, it
came down to 120 over 90, and itwas steadily on the decline, and
he was like, Okay, whatever youdid, keep going in that
(15:50):
direction.
SPEAKER_01 (15:51):
And so it was about those numbers, not really the
weight per se, it's about theseother key numbers that he was
like, I'm worried, right?
As opposed to your overallweight per se, I'm focusing on
that.
It was these other things.
SPEAKER_00 (16:05):
Oh, he wasn't focused on the weight at all.
I wasn't focused on the weightat all.
I hadn't seen myself, and sothat day I went home, I started
making some changes, but I alsotook a picture.
I took a picture of myself, andI contacted a coach because
believe it or not, I was in thegym every day.
(16:26):
I was training people, I wasteaching classes, so I was
teaching in the class about 20hours a week at the gym.
I was teaching gym classes, bootcamp, aqua aerobics, all the
things about 20 hours a week.
I was doing all of that at thatweight with those numbers.
SPEAKER_01 (16:46):
That makes it more scary.
SPEAKER_00 (16:48):
That's why it was so scary.
That makes it way more scary.
That's why it was so scarybecause I thought I was doing
all the right things.
Um, but I'd noticed, yeah, Istarted having headaches, my
back, I started seeing littlespots, and they were all
indicators.
SPEAKER_01 (17:04):
And so was it a give me the top two or three changes
that you made that led to eitheryour 90-day success story and
then the continuing workthereafter?
SPEAKER_00 (17:17):
I stopped I minimized my concern for things
outside of my purview.
SPEAKER_01 (17:24):
Okay, including people.
So that's the sort of mental,emotional, uh stress component.
SPEAKER_00 (17:31):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (17:32):
I gotta get some some people further away from
me, some things further awayfrom some responsibilities
further away from me.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (17:38):
Uh, and then I changed my diet.
SPEAKER_01 (17:41):
I cut salt, I cut sugar to zero by 90%, 70%?
SPEAKER_00 (17:46):
I cut salt a hundred percent.
I didn't okay, and let me sayadded salt.
I didn't add salt to anything,and I didn't use anything that
had salt as an ingredient.
Then I cut sugar, so I didn'tadd sugar to anything because
almost everything we eat alreadyhas sugar in it, so I didn't add
(18:09):
any sugar to anything, and Ididn't eat anything that was
sugar-based, so no desserts, nocut the sugar.
Dairy stopped with the dairy, soum I already didn't eat ice
cream, but there were some otherthings I like creamer in my
coffee, uh, cut back oncaffeine, cut back the caffeine,
uh, went from drinking coffee totea, uh, like literally
(18:33):
overnight made some changes.
Um, but the biggest change Iwould have to say that I made
was really managing my stresslevel.
SPEAKER_01 (18:40):
So you gave those those two things, uh, first
being additive stressors wasnumber one.
Number two is thenutrition-related pieces.
So when I think about, so youtalk about the disconnecting or
creating distance betweenpeople, places, and things,
right?
Part of your work requires theability to connect genuinely
(19:02):
across all kinds of differences,and some of those differences to
your point of what people eat orwhat their scores are are
unseen.
So, what are your thoughts onthe most critical unseen barrier
that you have had to work withpeople around?
SPEAKER_00 (19:21):
Perception.
The biggest barrier I've had todeal with is perception.
People think they know you.
People think they knowthemselves.
Um, but for the most part,people think they know you, so
they come to conversations, theycome into a relationship with a
certain expectation that theydon't articulate, even a
(19:47):
business relationship.
They come in with expectationsthat they don't articulate.
So for me, it is extremelyimportant that I spend time
level setting and laying forthexpectations, setting
boundaries, um being completelyopen, honest, transparent about
(20:10):
what the expectations should beso that it helps people
understand what they are goingto get from me.
SPEAKER_01 (20:21):
And the hope then is I guess because you're role
modeling this then, that I orthey would say, Okay, that's
what you want from me or fromthis experience.
This is what I want from you andthis experience, and we have
some meeting of the minds,hopefully.
That's the hope.
SPEAKER_00 (20:36):
That's the hope, but it's also articulated.
I will say, hey, I will tell youwhat I need from you.
I need you to do the same forme.
SPEAKER_01 (20:45):
Do people do that?
SPEAKER_00 (20:46):
Not always.
And I think part of the reasonwhy they don't do it is because
they don't really know how toarticulate, or they don't
believe that I'm beingcompletely honest with them when
I say say that.
Say say what you need.
I I'm not a mind reader, um, soI don't know.
Um in some instances, we haven'thad enough interactions for me
(21:07):
to know your cues.
So give me a little time andopportunity.
Um, but I really just I need youto lay it out on the table.
SPEAKER_01 (21:17):
Do you think that people who are more seasoned in
their careers are morecomfortable sharing?
Or do you think in today's sortof nouveau environment where
some of our younger colleagueshave gotten very comfortable
expressing themselves since theywere infants, are more
comfortable saying, This is whatI need or I think I need?
(21:37):
Who's generationally, who'sbetter?
SPEAKER_00 (21:40):
I think that's an interesting perspective to put
it in to kind of look at it fromthat view, from that lens,
because I think it's justperson-dependent.
I think there are some peoplewho are extremely self-aware at
an early age, and there are somepeople who are extremely
(22:04):
self-aware as they mature, butacross the spectrum are people
who are completely unaware, andthat's the difference.
SPEAKER_01 (22:16):
So, speaking of being unaware, or potentially
unaware, let's pretend that youhave the superpower being able
to go back in time.
And you go back and you findlittle Emma at whatever age you
want to choose, and you tap heron the shoulder and you can
whisper in her ear, it.
(22:36):
What age, Emma, are we talkingto?
Okay.
And what are you telling her?
SPEAKER_00 (22:40):
I'm talking to Emma between the ages of four and
six.
Okay.
Between four and six, my parentsdivorced.
Um, we'd lived across the streetfrom my grandmother.
We lived in a community that wasonly family, um, like for a few
(23:03):
miles around was only family.
Um, and it was extremelycomfortable.
I knew everyone.
Um we moved between four andsix, and we moved to a new
community, further away from thefamily, into a community where
we didn't know, I didn't know asa child, a lot of other kids,
(23:25):
uh, which meant I had to moveschools, so I became the new kid
in school.
Um, and my brother is an extremeextrovert, so he makes friends
really easy.
He's also a clown, so he makespeople laugh and people love
him.
I, on the other hand, I'm a bitmore of an introvert.
(23:48):
I spend time building deeprelationships, few deep
relationships instead of a lotof surface broad relationships.
And at that age, in the firstgrade, it's just that's a hard
place to be, to be the new kid.
But I would I would go back toher and I would say to her to
(24:11):
trust herself, don't shrink anddon't let people box you in.
SPEAKER_01 (24:20):
What did shrinking look like for her?
From the outside looking in,what what were the symptoms that
little Emma is shrinking whenshe was asked a question, when
she walked in the room?
What is that look like?
SPEAKER_00 (24:36):
So going back to first grade, I was the tallest
person.
There was one kid in my classwho was a low boy who was taller
than me.
So I was I haven't grown much instatue since the sixth grade.
That's so I was essentially thisheight in the sixth grade.
Um, so I was really tall in thefirst grade, so I stood out
(24:58):
automatically.
Um and I they they called meteacher's pet because I enjoyed
conversations with the teacher,um, responding to the questions
from the homework that we had todo.
Um, and so as the students inthe class started making
(25:24):
assumptions about what thatmeant and started calling me
outside of my name and taggingme, it made me stop doing some
of those things, or it made mepurposely answer the question
wrong or not answer at all.
Um, so that I could put myselfin more favorable light with
(25:47):
with some of the students.
Um, it made me less apt to buildthose relationships and share um
openly with my classmates who Iwas in terms of what I liked and
what I didn't like, or so Ididn't give them opportunities
to know me.
So I started to pull back fromthe first grade all the way
(26:11):
through until I graduated highschool.
Wow.
Because I went to school withthat same set of the same group
of people all the way throughhigh school.
I didn't have true friendshipsuntil I got to college.
SPEAKER_01 (26:25):
So those folks received a muted version of you,
a shrunken version of you.
unknown (26:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:33):
So in these conversations, right, kind of
uncomfortable conversations, Ilike to provide something I call
the inclusion moment or yourinclusion moment.
And I wanted you, if you don'tmind, to take a moment and tell
us a story.
A story where you're the maincharacter, and it would help a
stranger understand who you aregenuinely, authentically.
SPEAKER_00 (26:58):
So I'd have to go back to that little girl who was
in the first grade at a newschool with kids she didn't know
in an area that was unfamiliar,with no family per se in the
area, and she goes to school oneday, and all the kids in her
(27:25):
class go to recess, and theydecide that they are going to
get together and they're goingto, for all intents and
purposes, ostracize her from therest of the class.
So they go to there was a swingsand on the playground, so the
entire playground area, and justoutside of the playground area
(27:47):
was a tree line.
This is where all the shade is.
And on very hot days, most ofthe kids would try to play in
that area.
Well, they all decided to go tothat area and chant We Hate
Emma.
That's a thing.
That's a thing.
They didn't know me, they um hadnot given me an opportunity to
(28:11):
really integrate myself into theto to the class or to be a part
of what they had already grownaccustomed to as a friendship
circles.
Um, so the teacher comes over tome and she's like, Are you okay?
And everything inside me wasdying.
(28:32):
And I I looked at her and Isaid, Absolutely, I was okay.
Um, I then made it a point tostart conversations with my
teacher, and that's where Ispent my time.
And in that moment, I made up inmy mind that I would not endear
(28:57):
myself to them, that I wouldn'topen myself up, that I wouldn't
allow them to hurt me any morethan they hurt me that day.
So I started to rub some toughskin on it.
And that tough skin carried overfrom first grade through 12th
grade, through relationships,through professional, it it
(29:22):
there was trauma in that momentthat has impacted, um, impacted
how I navigate, how I navigateeven now relationships.
I'm not quick to open myself up.
So I think the lesson, the moralis understanding that even
(29:47):
early, something that theyprobably have not thought a
second about.
They never had a second thoughtabout what they did in that
moment, has been something Inever forgot.
SPEAKER_01 (30:00):
Do you think so part A of this question?
So you talk about shrinking.
So there's shrinking and thenprotecting.
Right?
Do you think that the shrinkinghappened independent of you
protecting yourself?
SPEAKER_00 (30:17):
No, I think they're they go hand in hand.
I shrunk to protect myself.
Gotcha, gotcha.
I wouldn't, I would not haveneeded to shrink had I not
needed to protect myself.
But I started shrinking in themoment to protect myself.
SPEAKER_01 (30:33):
So then my second question then is do you think
that today, whenever today is,you know, this part of this time
in your life, that thatprotective stuff or that
shrinkage stuff is visible onyou?
SPEAKER_00 (30:54):
They never saw it.
SPEAKER_01 (30:56):
Not them, but the people you're around now.
SPEAKER_00 (30:58):
The people that I'm around now wouldn't know it if
they saw it because it's becomea part of who I am and how I
navigate.
So it's there now because it hadto be there then.
And it just carried over and itgrew.
(31:22):
So it started off really smallwith okay, I'm going to not
answer the question.
Now I'm gonna answer thequestion wrong.
Now I'm gonna make myself small.
Uh and by small I mean smallerin statute.
I'm gonna try to find the othertaller people to be like it just
becomes a part of how you nav orhow I navigated.
(31:44):
And in today's world, and as Ishow up now, um I show up now
confident.
They they didn't know then thatthere was a piece of me dying,
to the point I make that evennow, if someone were to do
something, they wouldn't knowthat a piece of me was dying.
(32:06):
I would never let them see thatpart of me, even though people
do it all the time.
SPEAKER_01 (32:11):
Is there any part of you that's grateful to them for
helping to build you into whatyou are?
SPEAKER_00 (32:17):
Absolutely.
I thank them.
I had a conversation, so this isour 50th.
Every so the majority of thepeople in that class turned 50
this year.
SPEAKER_01 (32:28):
And they were also part of your graduating class.
SPEAKER_00 (32:30):
They were my graduating class.
So a part of part of that theyturned 50 this year, and several
of them have had birthdayparties and um and I've gotten
invitations, we've hadopportunities to interact, and
um we talked about that moment.
I talked about that moment andthanked them for the journey
(32:54):
that they put me on becausebefore that, I would say in the
south we call it tenderhearted,right?
I was tenderhearted, and itdidn't take much for me to show
my emotions, but in that moment,I don't know what it was about
that moment that made me realizeI couldn't allow them to see the
(33:18):
tender-heartedness because Ithought they would exploit it.
Now I didn't have language forthat at age six.
Now I know what it was, but Iknew that like every part of me
wanted to just break down andcry and let the tears flow and I
refused.
It it almost felt like I wasreaching over my own eyelids and
(33:39):
pulling the tears back andsaying, You better not, you
better not let them see you cry.
And it's it that's become a partof when people hurt me, you
better not let them see you cry,you better not let them see you
hurt, don't show them your pain.
For for whatever reason, good,bad, or indifferent, that's just
(34:00):
what it is.
Thank you for sharing.
SPEAKER_01 (34:03):
I appreciate you.
So I asked you if you might havea question for me.
SPEAKER_00 (34:08):
I do, and I wrote it down because I I did not want to
um squander this opportunity toask you a question.
And I actually I actually hadtwo.
I came up with two, and I waslike, oh, both of these are
good, and I and I wanted that tohave the chance, but it's a big
buildup.
It's a big buildup.
Okay, so so my first question iswe all have failures in our
(34:33):
lives, but I would wasinterested in knowing for you
what role does failure play inyour personal and professional
growth?
And can you share an example ofwhen failure ultimately led to a
major breakthrough ortransformation?
SPEAKER_01 (34:52):
Well, I wouldn't be good at anything had I not
failed a lot.
Like I you gotta get to be areally good friend of failure.
You know, it's gotta be afamiliar place, maybe not a
comfortable place, a place thatbrings joy and happiness, but
you know, you better getcomfortable with it if you want
to be good.
(35:13):
And if you want to be great, youbetter get real comfortable with
it.
You want to be elite, unique,that you want to be that person,
you're gonna fail a lot.
A lot.
So I hope that I have a good andhealthy relationship with
failure.
The the reality, however, is Idon't live out here by myself.
So when I fail, it impacts otherpeople.
(35:35):
And the older I've gotten andthe more I've had the
opportunity to spread my wingsand my roots have gotten a
little deeper, my failuresimpact more and more and more
people.
That concerns me a great deal.
And it reminds me of this ideaof am I willing to fail knowing
if I'm this feeling for me it'seasier if it's just gonna impact
(35:58):
me, but am I willing to risk andpotentially fail, knowing it
might impact these dozen people,these five dozen people or more?
I have to.
I have to.
I have to jump off the cliffface first.
If I gotta build something onthe way down, then so be it.
I must.
(36:18):
I mean, there's there's only somany of us that have been
blessed with time andopportunity and resources and
support mechanisms to be able tojump, to get to the top of the
cliff.
So you can jump.
So I must.
And I will do my best not tofail.
And if I do, then I'll startover.
You know, as the poem goes withworn-out tools and try to try to
(36:41):
do it again.
SPEAKER_00 (36:42):
Um, but yeah, me and failure, but so talk about that
transformational, that time whenyou failed and it was absolutely
transformational.
It changed everything.
SPEAKER_01 (36:56):
I have uh one personal, one professional.
So the personal one is my firsttime going to the national
championships in martial arts.
And um I was fit, I was fast, Iwas strong, I was all of these
things, and I knew I wascompetitive.
How competitive?
We're gonna find out, right?
So I'm in there and I'm fightingthese guys, and it's a two uh
(37:18):
double elimination.
So I lost like my second orthird fight, so I go into the
losers bracket, and I'm fightingthese folks, and um they are
beating me up.
My face is swollen.
I don't understand because allthe tournaments I went to before
this had never happened.
And so my instructor walks by,and there's no coaching allowed,
but I had a minute in between,I'm getting myself together, and
(37:41):
I said, Um, you know, Sensei, Idon't I don't understand.
They're they're hitting me inthe face hard.
And uh the rules say light facecontact allowed.
And he said, Are they hittingyou in the face lightly?
I said, No.
He says, Well, that must be thedefinition of light today.
Then he walked off.
(38:01):
And so I said, Okay, let mesettle in.
It means I'm gonna have to hitpeople hard.
And if they're not seeing thepoint, then I gotta knock you
out.
These are the rules of the gamethat I have chosen to play.
So I make it the fight for firstand second.
I've lost once, and then the guythat I had to beat, he had lost
zero times.
I have to beat him twice, he'sgonna beat me once.
He mocked the floor with me.
(38:24):
I mean, he embarrassed me.
SPEAKER_00 (38:26):
Oh wow.
SPEAKER_01 (38:27):
Oh yeah.
He I was when you say failure,there's it's like I didn't even
have any skills.
That's how badly he beat me.
And, you know, I pick myself upafterwards, you know, I get my
silver medal, and I'm like, I'mjust not I'm not ready.
It was a year later when he toldme why he handled me that way.
(38:49):
He says, I watched you, and if Iyou had any thought that you
might win, you might win.
So I have to take from you, Ihave to take hope from you.
I have to take it right now.
There's no time to wait.
And he did.
So from that failure, it waslike, okay, I have to recognize
there's certain things you can'ttake from me.
(39:10):
Like our grandmamas may havetaught us, you get educated that
can't take it from you.
Get this.
If you get hope, you can't letthem take that from you either.
Had I kept hope, I might havehad a shot.
But as soon as he took that, Iwas toast.
SPEAKER_00 (39:27):
Wow.
All right, quickly.
The second one was societalnorms.
Like this work that we do reallyis to provide access.
So when we think when you thinkabout societal norms, what is
one norm, one societal norm thatyou would change?
Um and why?
(39:49):
Because you know, on a broaderscale, if you think about the
communities that we are here toserve.
SPEAKER_01 (39:55):
A societal norm.
That somehow we're different.
People go in looking for thedifference.
You're taller, you're shorter,you're Baptist, I'm Muslim.
You're from the states, I'm fromCanada.
(40:15):
They're looking for thedifference instead of letting
the norm be.
Let's talk about how we're thesame.
SPEAKER_00 (40:23):
I like that.
I like that.
Well, thank you.
I appreciate you for indulgingme in my two questions.
SPEAKER_01 (40:28):
And thank you for joining me on our podcast, The
Right Kind of Uncomfortable.
I'm really uh deeplyappreciative that you peeled
back the onion layers all theway back to first grade.
All the way back to first gradeand the trauma.
First grade and the trauma.
That that could be the title ofthis one.
Well, we'll have to think.
SPEAKER_00 (40:45):
Well, thank you.
Thank you.
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