Are you tired of feeling stuck in midlife, constantly battling self-doubt and the weight of "shoulds" that aren't even yours?
In this powerful episode, I sit down with the incredible Jessica Frew, a powerhouse decision-maker who helps women ditch the overthinking, overcome people pleasing, and embrace an unapologetic way of life. Jessica shares her deeply personal journey—from a conservative upbringing to navigating divorce, a gay ex-husband, and successful co-parenting—all while building profound self-trust for women and making aligned decisions.
Her unique experiences forged her into a true "Spark Igniter," empowering others to break free from societal expectations and truly rediscover purpose. This conversation is a testament to the midlife transformation that's possible when you choose to live boldly and authentically, ultimately boosting your midlife confidence.
Listen in to discover:
✔️ How releasing judgment and ego can be your greatest allies in building unshakeable self-trust.
✔️ The transformative power of the "Be Gentle, Be Humble, Be Bold" formula for making aligned decisions that serve you.
✔️ Why redefining love beyond conventional norms opens up a world of expansive joy and true connection, especially after experiencing a divorce healing journey.
This episode is your invitation to let go of what holds you back and step into the vibrant, confident woman you're meant to be. If you're craving deeper fulfillment and ready to live a life you're excited about, this is for you!
More About Jessica:
Jessica Frew is a wife, ex-wife, mom, stepmom, and BOLD action taker. She believes that you find true peace, connection and confidence by making your next best decision. Jessica helps you make clear, confident, and concise decisions to lead a BOLD life that is in alignment with who you were created to be while leaving behind overthinking, people pleasing, and the need to justify your decisions through her proven Be.Be.Be Decision Making Formula.
Social Media:
https://www.instagram.com/heyjessicafrew/
Take Jessica’s Quiz:
https://theboldlogic.com/indecision
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Rise to Shine podcast with Noel Custis where
we ignite the spark to discover your favorite self.
It is time to get real ladies. Hello, hello, welcome back to
the Rise to Shine podcast. I'm your host, Noel Custis, and
(00:20):
I am so excited for today's episode.
Today's guest, believe it or not, is someone I connected with
when I was at a networking eventin Boise, of all places.
And I got to meet Jessica. And within minutes, I knew that
I needed to know her. Her style, her vibe, her
(00:41):
presence. Well, it is all very magnetic.
And since then, we've stayed in touch in the background.
And the more I have learned about her, the more I have had,
I've admired just her bold, beautiful way that she moves
through life. And Jessica, a little bit about
her is a wife. She's also an ex-wife.
(01:02):
She's a mom and a stepmom. We have that in common.
And she is a powerhouse decisionmaker.
She's built a life and a movement around helping women
ditch the overthinking and I love that ditching the people
pleasing and the need to explainthemselves.
Through her signature BBB decision making formula, she's
(01:25):
guiding others to lead boldly and live in alignment with who
they were truly created to be. Welcome Jessica.
So fun to have you today. Oh my goodness.
Thank you so much for having me.It's so fun to like, be able to
connect again and be able to chat together.
Yeah. I love it.
I love it. Well, like I said, we have so
(01:47):
much in common and then we have so much that's not in common
that I just love about your story.
And I, like I said, I really feel like since I have met you
and then just in the couple of years that I've gotten to follow
along, I have just been so impressed by the way you lead
(02:08):
and by the way you speak your truth.
And I feel like it is so important for women to have that
permission to do that. And I feel like that's exactly
what you do. So for all the women out there
that have not met you yet, I would love for you to just tell
us a little bit about yourself before we really dive into all
(02:29):
the goodness and just about yourjourney that's LED you here
today. Sounds great.
And to preface this like it's interesting because I do a lot
of podcast interviews and thingslike this and whenever people
say nice things about me at the beginning of these, as a woman,
we are so conditioned to like not let that come in.
(02:49):
And I get teary every time. So thank you for the kind words.
I appreciate that. And I'm getting better at just
letting them come and think, wow, that's amazing because we
tend to deflect. So thank you always appreciated
yes. So my story really began.
I always say like when I met my ex-husband, people always that's
(03:12):
when things got interesting in my life.
I grew up in a very conservativeChristian religion was a very
straight edge individual, exceptthat I never looked that way.
So there was a lot of people being like, Oh well, Jessica's
this one way like me getting viewed as a certain type of way.
I was always viewed as you know,somebody who is a druggie or
(03:34):
doing like drinking on the weekends and partying and I
never was. I was very straight edge very by
the book, but I didn't look at Ialways like to have fun with who
I was and all those things. So there was all of that leading
up to when I met my husband, my ex-husband Steve.
And he was raised in the same religion and he wanted that like
(03:56):
he wanted somebody that was alsoin the religion, but like that
looked different. And even though he couldn't
vocalize that, that was really the thing that I realized that
connected us is neither of us really fit, even though we were
very much trying to fit. So we met, we fell in love.
It was very much a quick like wemet one day and we were together
(04:18):
the next day and every day afterthat that we could be and, and
we met in February, we were married in December.
So it was a very quick romance and we really enjoyed each other
and all of these things. And people talk about like that
first idyllic year of marriage or like, no, that it's the
hardest year of marriage. And I'm like, no, we had this
(04:38):
idyllic like first year of marriage, like it was easy to to
mesh our lives together. And I say that and then I always
think, OK, but six months into our marriage, I found a bunch of
pornography on our computer one day.
And I remember when like back inthe day, pop ups would just pop
(04:59):
up on your computer and you'd belike, OK, what's going on?
Like if you had clicked the linkor something, it could create
all these pop ups that would show up.
And I got on the computer and that's how I found all this
pornography was all of these popups.
Now in our religion, first and foremost, pornography was like
shame, like shameful. And I already knew Steve looked
at pornography, but what I wasn't prepared for was there
(05:20):
was no women in in these videos,in these pictures.
And I was like, OK, hold up. We have something different
going on here. There's there's no women.
This is all men. And I thought, I'm pretty sure
my husband's gay. Now, that doesn't necessarily
mean he is gay. People are into what they're
into. But for me, there was like this
(05:40):
inner knowing that I'm pretty sure my husband is gay.
And I talked to him that night and he was like, no, I'm not
gay. I just didn't want to disrespect
women. And he was in extreme denial.
He had very much convinced himself that that was his truth.
And he later told me he's like, that night when we talked about
that was the first time I had let myself even think the words
(06:01):
I am gay, like, have it be a consideration in his head.
I was like, OK, so we both kind of just tucked this in the
background and continue forward in our marriage.
Couple years later, he's in counseling and the counselors
like, yeah, these things you're dealing with an issue, but the
real issue is that you're gay. And so until you deal with this
and kind of address and accept this part of you, you're going
(06:23):
to struggle with all these otherthings.
And at that point, he came out to me and we decided to continue
forward. Like it just felt right for both
of us. And people hear that and they
were like, you guys are nuts. And I get it, it sounds crazy,
but it was what was best for both of us.
So we continued forward. We brought a beautiful little
girl into our lives and we endedup getting divorced.
(06:46):
About 7 years into our marriage,Steve had an affair.
We tried to work through the affair and it was just too much
of a mess at that point. And I was just like you, we're
ready like go be your true self.I will go be my true self.
As long as we can come together and figure out how to raise this
little girl together, we are fine.
Like we can figure this out. And I say that like there was a
(07:08):
lot of emotion in that. There was it's, it's everything
that happens when somebody has an affair or goes outside of the
boundaries of what you have established in your marriage.
All of those feelings and emotions came with that.
And also a deep sense of like shame on Steve's part and also
figuring out who he is now and, and all of the things.
(07:30):
So we went through that whole process, but we did it with the
intention of being able to stay close enough that our daughter,
who is now 15, she was 2 at the time we got divorced, would be
able to have parents that she didn't have to worry about if
they were in the same room. And also that our partners,
whoever we invited in the long term, that we could all be
together. And it was never about us.
(07:52):
It was always about Penny. Like we got to be there for
Penny in whatever way she wantedus to be so that she didn't have
to worry about her parents. That was like my intention in
our divorce besides healing myself and all those things
which I knew I had to do for that to happen.
And so we, we continued with that.
I ended up getting married a year and a half later, which is
(08:13):
also super nuts after dating himfor eight weeks.
I didn't know him for longer than that and worked through all
of the mess that comes with second marriages.
I thought, OK, this is going to be easy, I'm married to a
straight man now. Like this is great and it was a
complete disaster for the first few years to the extent that I
(08:35):
have left at one point and worked through all that.
So here we are. We've been, we're coming up on
our 13 or 12 year wedding anniversary and during all this
process, Steve and I and Matt, Matt's, my current husband,
Steven's, my ex-husband, would like share parts of our story
with people and would realize that this really resonated.
(08:58):
We hear so much of like through divorce and just in life in
general, of so much of the negative things that happens in
families that we don't get to see when people actually come
together to make it work to figure out how to love and
support each other along the way.
And you ask my current husband right now and he will say, like,
I love Steve. I love him kind of like a
(09:21):
brother at this point. I view Steve is like I that deep
of a love that I love him that deeply.
We do holidays together, we do Christmases like birthdays
together, including like Steve'sbirthday, which happens to be
this week and all of these things so that we can create a
good situation for ourselves andfor our daughter, which has led
(09:42):
me to now let we, we share our story in a podcast.
That's where I was going with that.
Like we need more of that. So Steve and I and Matt came
together and started a podcast sharing our story.
And we always say it was about love, marriage, divorce, coming
out, like all of the things so that people felt less alone in
their story. And it's interesting because we
don't have to have lived like you and I were saying, the exact
(10:04):
same lives. We might have some things that
are similar to be able to resonate with all of those
things that happened. And so we put that out there.
And then I started coaching women along the way.
And I was coaching women who hadhad a partner come out.
And then I was coaching women who had experienced divorce or
betrayal. And now I coach women and
helping them figure out how to make decisions for themselves
(10:25):
that are in alignment because that is the one thing that
stayed true for me through all of this is being able to make
decisions that were in alignmentwith who I was and what I
needed. And and all of that along the
way so that I didn't lose myselfin the process.
So that's like the very short version of my story and how I've
(10:47):
gotten to where I am today. It's been a up and down journey.
But I always tell people, if youwant like the whole story and
the details from both sides of it, go listen to our podcast.
It's called Husband in Law. We don't release episodes
anymore, but it is all there. Start with episode 1.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, and gosh, you know, so
(11:07):
much to unpack, I know. And I'm sure for women
listening, they're like, whoa, did she just say all of that?
Oh my gosh. Because I remember when we had
met and you had given me not even all of that story, but at
the time you were doing your podcast and you were coaching
women that their spouses had come out.
(11:30):
And I just remember being like, wow, like what a story Because
it's just you think it's not something you hear very often.
But what was so intriguing to meis that I tuned in to some of
your, you know, episodes and I was like, wow, there's way more
(11:54):
people out there dealing with these kinds of things that keep
so hidden. And what a relief for a space
for women to feel seen and heardand to have a place that they
can even be coached. I always say, you know, I mean,
yes, there's all the certifications.
There's all the things, you know, that we have as coaches
(12:16):
and you know, or some don't have, but I'm like, it's the,
it's the experiences too, that bring so much into your space.
And one of the things I am so curious about because I, you
know, I, I am sure our listenersare going to have tons of
questions and, you know, I want to kind of, we'll, we'll go
(12:38):
through it gradually. But one of the things that I was
really curious about is how has your experience of, you know,
rewinding back to that time and,you know, even to where you are
now? How has that influenced your
views on yourself worth on love?What?
What does that look like for you?
(13:01):
It's interesting like my views of self worth for myself have
grown drastically of recognizingthe strength that I have carried
through all of this and also being able to recognize in the
moment that this I am, I'm strong and strong doesn't always
mean I'm pushing through or I amliving into what's expected of
(13:23):
me. Strong means doing what is best
for me. Strong means breaking down and
being like I can't do this today.
I remember there were plenty of times showing up at my parents
house and I had a 2 year old when I'm going through a divorce
and being like here is my daughter, please take her for
the day. I am a mess like right and
leaving. And so strength looks like that.
(13:43):
The strength is being able to state what it is we need and and
being curious enough and gettinguncomfortable enough to figure
that out. So for me, my my worth was was
strengthened of, of all of, you know, realizing this isn't about
me and being able to detach fromthat because we internalize so
(14:04):
much of what our partners do is like, oh, this is all about me.
How do I fix it? How do I come to terms with
that? And me being very much like this
has nothing to do with me. I mean, it seems pretty
straightforward, but I work witha lot of women who have had gay
partners. And we don't think that way.
Just kind of like if there's betrayal, we think it's all
about us. Like they did this because I
wasn't enough and we have to prove ourselves.
(14:25):
And so being able to release that need to prove my worth and
now is tested really hard when Imarried my second husband
because there was a desire to prove I didn't want to fail
again. I didn't want my marriage to
fall apart. And so that that was when it was
the hardest to accept my worth and be able to live into it
without needing to prove it. Second part of that question, I
(14:48):
can't remember what you said. Oh, and just, you know, on your
views on love even. OK, yes, views on love.
This is the other thing that I, I mean, my whole goal in this
life and in leadership and beingsomebody who's willing to be
seen is to help people rethink love because love is completely
(15:10):
expansive. I mean, I think about if you
have more than one children, child, more than one child, I do
not. I just have the one, but I know
how this works of like you love them just as much.
Like if you have another one, the love expands.
We think that like, how could I love someone or something as
much as this first kid as much as this one being.
And then we have another and it's like, whoa, I get to love
(15:34):
more deeply. And I think that's one of the
things that has really hit home to me is when I show up in love,
it gets to expand. So I love Steve deeply.
And people online, of course, like I get so much crazy, like
so much craziness in my comments, which is totally fine.
But people can't grasp that. People can't understand that
(15:54):
love expands. They'll be like, oh, your poor
husband, you're still in love with your ex.
Oh, your poor, like ex, like allof these things.
And I'm like, this is because wecan't perceive how big love gets
to be. And in that when we can
understand how to love ourselves, it on a deep level,
it expands that love as well. And Matt, my current husband,
(16:17):
thankfully can be like, I can see and understand this.
Like I understand your love and appreciation for Steve and also
know that doesn't like take anything away from our
relationship and the love that we feel for each other.
It's completely different type of love.
I have a quote on my office wall.
This is my Home Office, my otheroffice that says there are all
(16:39):
types of love in this world, butnever the same love twice.
And I believe that's Fitzgerald,F Scott Fitzgerald.
And that is something that I just truly believe.
Like there are so many differenttypes of love in this world that
we can experience, that we get to experience when we allow
ourselves to that there's just, it's just never the same.
And so we can't understand otherpeople's love.
(17:01):
Like people aren't going to understand how I love my
ex-husband and they don't have to.
The idea is that we understand that love gets to be expansive
and we get to feel it in so manydifferent ways.
And this is exactly what it was that this energy about you that
I was so drawn to because that is where I felt, believe it or
(17:25):
not. I mean, yes, I, there were other
things I could relate with you on, but this was something that
I feel like ironically, because I don't understand it, that
people have a hard time understanding is this expansive
love and the different types of love because that is who I am
(17:47):
and, and I am with you. So I've also gone through a
divorce. I have two children from my
previous husband and, you know, we were together for almost 20
years and I am now remarried andjust, you know, so happy and
just on a, you know, in a completely different
(18:08):
relationship. And there were a lot of really
hard, horrible things that happened in my first marriage.
But I, I still love him and I have a love for him that I
always want. Like, my heart's desire is for
(18:29):
him to always feel loved by his people, to know that, you know,
he does have people out there that love him and that his, you
know, well-being is, you know, something that's super important
to me. And same thing.
People are shocked that I feel that way and because of our past
(18:52):
and what had happened. But there's something about it.
And, and I think that's what I admire so much about your
relationship with your with yourex and even his loves and his
life and then having, I mean, thank goodness, you know, we are
both married to people that understand that.
And because again, I not everybody does and and I guess
(19:16):
to be in our world, you would have to understand it, right,
because that's who we are and that is how we are going to
carry on our lives. And and they know that.
And but I just, I really commendyou for it because not only have
you shown that love, but you've also put out into the world this
(19:40):
Gosh, I'm trying to look for thethink of the words that I'm
trying to say is that you've putout into the world that it's OK
and that you can still you. We don't have to live with all
of this hate, even if we don't agree.
I mean, and this goes on so manylevels, but I just feel like,
gosh, if we, if we could be grounded in this and understand.
(20:02):
And I think you're right. I think it is a self love which.
It's hard, that's even hard for me to understand because
sometimes I go, gosh, I, I feel like I've been so hard on
myself, you know, but yet I knowthat everyone is worth having
that and I just, I don't know, Ijust really admire you for what
you have done and that relationship that you've built
(20:26):
and that your child gets to experience that gets to live in
a family that comes together andis able to, is able to function
in this space. Because even though it might be
hard and tricky sometimes and it's not always, you know,
(20:47):
perfectly clean. It can be messy, for sure, but
that she's going to grow up knowing that this is what her
mom and her dad and her stepdad have built a life upon, which I
just think is huge. It's just huge.
Yeah. And ideally, what I hope for her
is that she understands no matter what her life looks like,
(21:09):
what she chooses for her life tobe is we are here supporting
that and kind of breaking down these boxes of what her life
needs to be. Because as humans, we want it to
fit in a box. We want it to look a certain
way. And that's why it's hard to see
love outside of that box, outside of what we know is
because there's so many ways it can look.
(21:31):
And when we start breaking down the box, it's like, Oh my gosh,
I, I can't, can't comprehend this.
And our human brains are like freaking out, trying to keep us
safe. No, totally stay in the box.
This is what you've seen. Stay there.
And so that's, that's part of my, one of my biggest hopes for
her. I used to say, you know, like I
wanted Steve and I to be in the room together with whoever else
(21:52):
was in our lives at that time when she gets married and when
she has a kid and when she graduates.
And now I'm like, I don't even know what those events look like
in her life. And I don't want her to think
that it has to look any certain way or whatever, but that she
gets to decide what those important moments are and
whatever they are, we're there. And this comes back to a lot of
(22:12):
like what you were talking aboutand, and my ideal life for
Penny. And there isn't an ideal life.
It's whatever she creates. But is this should that we get
ourselves stuck in? Is there so much of the should
of what our life should look like that then we can't pull
ourselves out to think any differently?
(22:34):
You know, we should the paths there for so many of us, whether
we've been in religion or not, there's this idea of like, OK, I
go to school, I I graduate, I goto college, I get married, I
have children. I and in that I marry a like
person of the other gender. Like all of these things are
just kind of ingrained in our lives of this is how it's
supposed to look. This is how my relationships
(22:56):
should look. And if I'm going to get
divorced, if my husband has an affair, then I should be pissed
and angry and never forgive that.
And I'm like, what a sad way to live for like that isn't serving
you. That isn't going to make you
happy. Do you want boundaries?
100%? But that doesn't mean you have
to carry anger and resentment your whole life or you don't
(23:18):
have to stay in a marriage that isn't serving you just because
it's what you thought was right for you 20 years ago.
You know, like all of these things, we get so stuck in the
should. And I am just like we are
leaving that should behind and making the decisions that feel
best for us. No right or wrong in that, no
good or bad, just our next best decision and that's going to
(23:42):
lead us where we need to be. Right.
And so, I mean, you know, going into, and I definitely want to
talk about this, but I, I'm justso curious when, what is your
advice for someone who knows what they want but fears how
other people will perceive theirdecision or who they are?
(24:02):
Yeah, So often times with my clients, what I will do is I'm
like, you need to embark on either a should challenge or a
trust your gut challenge. It kind of they're similar but
different. So one of them with the should
challenge is I'm going to find one thing a day where I'm
shooting on myself. It could be I should do this
workout, I should eat this food,I should style my hair this way
(24:25):
because that's what my partner likes or whatever.
I should wear this outfit because that's what I've been
told is appropriate or that's what is whatever, you know?
Then I look the best for other people.
So identifying those shots and Itell people, identify one a day
and realize first and foremost how much you're shooting on
yourself of like living into this idea of what it is, what's
(24:49):
expected of me, of what life should look like.
And then I often tell them, now we're going to graduate to a
trust your gut challenge. And this is where we take one
thing a day and we act on it. So if we are shooting on
ourselves about what we should wear, then we are going to go
back and we're going to be like,what do I want to wear today?
(25:10):
What is actually going to feel good in my body?
What is going to like make me feel honestly, what it does when
you do this is then you don't even think about yourself
anymore. You're not uncomfortable in your
clothes. You're not thinking about what
they're doing because it's something you want to wear.
And so you actually get to thinkabout other people more in the
long run. But for now, we're just coming
(25:31):
down to trusting our gut in one way every day.
Now, what this does is it buildsa trust and confidence with
ourselves. So over time we realize, oh, I
did this and the nothing happened, nothing horrible
happened. Maybe that person thought
something about my outfit, but Idon't care because I felt good.
(25:54):
And honestly, you stopped thinking about it.
I don't think about what other people think about my hair or
what I wear or any of these things.
Like it's not something that crosses my mind because I've
been doing this for so long. I don't care.
Now, maybe some bigger things. I still have to work through
those issues, but it gives us a way to start working through
those and to start realizing it's not the end of the world
(26:15):
when I do what is best for me. Even in the little things.
Especially in the little things because those prepare us for
making those big decisions of like Oh my gosh, I know my
parents are going to lose it when I tell them this is
actually something that happenedthat I tell them I am dating my
gay ex-husband again. So we are divorced and I dated
(26:38):
my ex-husband again after that divorce.
My parents are going to die and I'm sure they did, I am sure of
it. And also I knew it was what was
best for me at the time. And so it just didn't matter.
Like does it sound insane? 100% but it doesn't matter what
anybody else thought because I knew that's what Steve and I
(26:58):
needed at the time. And so if we can start
instilling that trust back with ourselves and that connection
back to ourselves on small things on a daily basis, it
allows us to release that peoplepleasing.
It starts helping us feel safe in our own body, like goes into
that nervous system regulation and all of those things so that
we feel safe to then take actionon bigger things.
(27:21):
Still scary. Still like, I don't know if this
is going to go my way, but we don't have other people's voices
in the back of our head constantly telling us like, oh,
but you should do this. Oh, but that's dumb.
Whatever, it can sound insane. I don't care.
It's what I'm going to do because it's what's best for me.
Oh, that's so good. Because I, I just love the idea
(27:42):
of trusting ourselves because that really, when I started
doing the work several years ago, I realized that that was
part of my issue is that I didn't trust myself because I
didn't follow through with certain things or because I
would say I was gonna do one thing and I wouldn't do it.
And it just became a pattern. And I'm so, so curious about
(28:04):
this because you radiate this unapologetic energy.
I have to say you definitely do.And I know that at the
beginning, when you talked aboutyour story, you said, you know,
even when you were in this very conservative church and, you
know, in this religion, you werealways different.
You always stood out. You always dressed a little bit
(28:25):
different, maybe had an edge to you.
And so there's definitely a boldness with you.
Has that always been that? Where do you think that that
came from at a young age? Or do you just, have you always
felt like you've been this way? I think that this is one of the
gifts I was given in life, that this is the way I was created.
(28:46):
And that that is one of the things that, again, like you're
saying, like brings people to mebecause when we are safe being
ourselves, it gives other peoplethe permission to be themselves
and to say, hey, I'm going to dothis thing.
And it sounds crazy, but I thinkyou'll understand.
Or at least be like, yes, you gowithout judging and without all
(29:07):
those things. Like that is a gift that I've
been given. Now, it doesn't mean that I
haven't taken time to understandwhy I am this way and what
actually allows me to live into this.
I remember as a teenager very much struggling with the fact
that I wanted to be different. Like, I wanted to have weird
hair and I wanted to dress. I always wore weird tights all
(29:29):
the time. Like, that was my thing.
Like, I don't know, they were weird and it was great.
And part of me still does that, but there was just this knowing
of like, this is okay. I remember kind of like going to
God with it actually, and just being like, hey, my intention
isn't to be rebellious. But also I'm being told this
isn't how I should look. This isn't how I should dress
(29:53):
and just coming to this place ofrealizing this isn't out of
rebellion. This isn't out of any of those
things. It's actually me trusting God to
be who I was created to be. And once I embrace that, that I
was that, that listening to our inner knowing is actually
trusting universe, whoever, whatever you believe in to guide
(30:14):
you, then it's like, Oh, I don'tneed to care what anybody else
thinks because I know it's in meand I know it's guiding me
towards my purpose on earth, my mission, my, my ability to love
other people. Now I want to touch on real
quick this idea of trusting ourselves because so many of us
as women don't know how to trustourselves.
(30:36):
And I, I go back to when we werekids, we are the first person we
were taught not to trust. And I think this is really
important for us to understand so that we can give ourselves
grace in learning how to trust ourselves.
We were taught not to trust ourselves at very young age when
we were told it doesn't hurt that bad, you're OK.
(30:58):
You shouldn't feel that way. You shouldn't want that.
You shouldn't dress that way. That looks weird.
You're not going to be accepted.You should whatever you need to
do this and that to fit in. And it amplifies the older we
get and we disconnect farther and farther away from ourselves.
And so it takes time and a lot of intention to then come back
(31:20):
to trusting ourselves. But it is possible.
And I have lost myself a few times along the way, like I'm
nobody does this perfectly. But also we can come back to
ourselves. And also there are things we can
do to regain that trust with ourselves.
And that's the only thing we really need in life is trust of
ourselves. People are like, I don't know
how to trust again after, after betrayal, after my partner did
(31:43):
this or that. And I'm like, you don't have to
trust them. You have to learn to trust
yourself again. Yes, so good, so good.
Say that louder. Yeah.
Because I think that is so important that it's not about,
like you said, the distrust of other people, It's trusting
ourselves. And what a great point that, you
(32:05):
know, again, these are the typesof things that start to happen
at an early age when we are children and the messages that
were given. And, you know, and, and that's
probably why I love doing this podcast more than anything and
just speaking with women and coaching with women because it
has helped me so much as a parent.
(32:27):
I mean, I had a great mom and she did the best that she could
and her mom did the best that she could.
And I'm doing the best that I can.
But I also know I look at my daughter and I see this person
that she's becoming and I alwaystell her, I go, man, she's 23.
And I say what you know and how you live out your life at age
(32:49):
23. It took me 45 years to figure
that out. And it is so awesome to see.
And she's always been, I kind ofgiggled when you said and I
always wore the different tights, like, Oh my gosh, that
was my kid. She was the girl that she wore
uniforms to school. And I remember the one the well,
(33:12):
two things that they did not make as part of the uniform was
socks. You could pretty much wear
whatever socks you wanted. So of course was my daughter in
all the rainbow socks and the, you know, there was fluffy balls
on her socks and everything elseyou could imagine.
And then she got into hats. And then it was like, oh, well,
(33:32):
this is my way of showing my style.
And again, it was that bite yourtongue.
I was a teacher at this school. So of course I'm going.
OK. I gotta like make sure it's, you
know, within the space of like, I'm still a teacher.
I have to respect the rules. However, she had a point.
I'm like, that's not in the rules.
(33:53):
And I wanted her to be able to express herself.
And that was something I felt like I really wasn't able to do.
And, and not purposely, but it was, it was ought to me to, you
know, like you're, you look weird.
You don't want people to think that or, you know, you need to
look like this. And I mean, it was definitely
how I was raised. And so, you know, and it was, it
(34:16):
was, it was a learning experience for me.
And now I see her as this adult and just, gosh, I just go, man,
girl, I love, I love how you're able to live out this boldness
more so than what I was and justfeeling so much more comfortable
in her skin, even though, you know, again, nothing's perfect
and they're, you know, they're still things, but that in that
(34:40):
area, I'm like, OK, this is good, this is good, you know,
and so I do love that. But now going into some more of
the work that you do, I know that we we're talking about like
how you work with your clients. I know that you created the BBB
decision making formula. So is that is that aligned with
(35:03):
some of the things that you weresharing before or is that a
framework that you could walk usthrough and tell us about?
Yeah, it's 100% in alignment with what I was talking about
before and is a process that we can dive into.
So there are three BS obviously that we go into.
The 1st is be gentle. And I always tell people being
gentle with ourselves is 60% of the decision making process.
(35:27):
And it is this basically on learning or learning how to be
gentle with ourselves of releasing judgement, releasing
those shoulds, really taking time to sort through all of
those things so that we are not judging ourselves with
everything that it is we want. I want to dress this way.
Oh, but I shouldn't Every time you say should, you are placing
(35:48):
the judgement on something that you want to do.
It's the easiest way to catch that judgement is just by
hearing the word should. And you're like, take it.
You're going to hear all the time.
Now I'm. Going to note to self on that
one. Going to come up, but just being
able to do that of of releasing that judgement that we put on
ourselves. And once we start getting in a
(36:09):
pattern of being able to releasethat judgement, we get to move
to the next step, which is beinghumble.
And being humble doesn't mean we're a doormat.
It doesn't mean we aren't proud of ourselves.
It doesn't mean any of that. It means that we are releasing
our ego. So we have to release the ego so
that we can be wrong about how we thought life should look, how
(36:29):
we thought we should live. And when we can release that
ego, it opens up this world of there are so many different ways
my life could look and it doesn't mean anything about me.
And I'm not responsible for other people's thoughts,
feelings and beliefs about what I do.
So this is kind of the step where we unlearn the people
pleasing and we silence the noise of other people's
(36:52):
opinions. We get clear about our values so
that we can show up in those values.
I mean, that was one of the things like as a teenager, real.
I'm not bad, this is just important to me.
Being myself and expressing myself is important to me.
I always say boldness is one of my top values and has been, I
can trace it though my whole life.
(37:12):
And so I can make decisions based on that.
So we go into, we have the firstpart that's be gentle, learning
how to be gentle with ourselves,releasing that judgement, being
kind. 60% of the process, it's the hardest work. 30% of the
process is this understanding ofhow we get to know ourselves.
Again, creating that trust in ourselves, regaining those
(37:35):
things. And so 10% of the process, this
little part up here is what we actually think about when we
think of decision making is taking the action.
And so overcoming the fear and taking action and understanding
this might not go the way that Ihad planned and it doesn't
matter. I just need the information.
We like to like, overthink everything and like go to our
(37:58):
aunt and our cousin and our dad and you know whoever to get all
the information and Google and Instagram and Pinterest and
gather all this information about what we should do.
And it keeps us from taking action when really if we took
action, then we would have the clarity we need to go forward
again and to go forward again. Now, if it doesn't go as
(38:20):
planned, that is information youcan use.
That is where we are. Like, OK, I need to shift this
way. Like now I know for sure this
wasn't the right path for me. That's OK.
It doesn't mean my intuition's off.
It means that I needed to understand this and experience
it so I can go this direction. And so that's kind of the last
step is be bold. And it's taking that action,
(38:41):
being true to who we are. And I always preface that this
because I do, you know, I had a shaved head for years.
Like this is the most tear I've had in a long time.
And like all of these things, like this doesn't mean you go
shave your head. This doesn't mean you wear the
same things I wear. Like I am not trying to turn
anybody into me. My own goal and intention is to
get you in tune with you. Now I create a really safe space
(39:05):
to do that, a very judgement free zone to do that.
And that is my goal is that you get to hear and understand your
own voice on a deep level. So you are taking action on
that. So we got to be gentle, we got
to be humble, and then we get tobe bold.
Love, love that so much and and I can say first hand, I mean, I
(39:27):
like I said, I've been followingyou for two years and I know
that everything that you put outthere is exactly that.
You clearly live by that. And again, just so, so much love
for that because you truly are walking the walk and, and I love
too that you and I absolutely trust that you are letting and
(39:52):
allowing other people to feel safe because there is no
judgement. It is just simply be who you are
and have that safe space to cometo for that.
So. Oh my gosh, so many things.
But I, I want to ask you becauseI would love to know what is
lighting you up right now personally or professionally
(40:12):
that you are excited to share with the world.
Share with all of our listeners.Yeah, so one thing first and
foremost as I'm sitting looking out my window is summertime and
sunshine. I forever am summer and sunshine
and just I know that like we think of winter as a season of
rest, but I feel like summer is my season of rest.
(40:32):
I well and maybe every season ofmy life because I believe women
just do too much in general. And so right now, like laying by
the pool and just taking afternoons to relax like that is
something that lights me up. And also professionally, I am
launching a book and I am so excited about it because it's
talking about these principles and helping it get into the
(40:55):
hands of so many more women thatcan then take take these steps
and work through them on their own or join me along the way.
But they have a reference of, oh, I can go back to this
chapter and read about being bold.
I can go back here and read about being gentle and have
things that help me work throughthis process of learning to
trust myself again and those things that keep us from being
(41:16):
able to trust ourselves. So those are things I'm excited
about summer and my book launch.I'm just really pumped about
those. I am so excited, Jessica, and I
just want to say so much. Thank you for being here and
sharing your truth so boldly andbeautifully of course too.
But I know every woman right now, I, I really feel this in my
(41:37):
heart is walking away with a deeper sense of just that
clarity and permission to just be who she was created to be.
And that's what that's what I, you know, was hoping for with
having you here. It's exactly what you shared
with us. And I love it cuz you are really
such a light. You're such a force.
And I'm so grateful that our paths crossed that day in Boise
(42:01):
of all places. And I really hope, I cannot wait
for this book to come out. I really hope that this is just
going to be the beginning of more conversations like this
because I just think that it is such a reminder.
And it is my hope with this podcast that women will start to
realize that we don't have to overthink and over explain or
(42:23):
overcompensate and that we can live boldly and we can live
fully and be the person that we are meant to be.
So I'm super excited and Jessica, can you just tell us
where everyone can find you and all of the things?
We will have them in the show notes, but I'd love for you to
just share with us. Yeah.
So if you are interested, you can get on the wait list for the
(42:45):
book at Shove Your shoulds.com/book Wait List.
So Shove Your Shoulds. That is the name, that is the
title of the book because we aregoing to shove those shoulds out
of our lives. But you can find me on Instagram
at Hey, Jessica Fru. That is where I am by far the
most active. Those are probably the two best
(43:07):
places to go right now. And then if you want to go back
and listen to our podcast, it iscalled Husband in Law.
It is out there if you are looking for it.
Awesome. And you guys, to everyone
listening, if today sparks something in you, please follow
that. Make your next best decision.
Be bold, be you. And as always, thank you so much
(43:28):
Jessica, and keep rising, keep shining and know that your best
day is right here waiting for you.
Bye friends. Thanks for having me.
Thank you. Thanks for joining me here
today. Your presence means the world to
me. If you enjoyed what you heard,
please consider leaving a ratingand review and don't forget to
follow or subscribe so you nevermiss an episode.
(43:49):
Head to the show notes and let'sconnect.
Rise to Shine Co is ready to support you in coaching,
collaboration, light tips, or even a coffee chat.
Until next time, keep shining myfriends.
Welcome to the Rise to Shine podcast with Noel Custis where
we ignite the spark to discover your favorite self.
It is time to get real ladies. Hello, hello, welcome back to
the Rise to Shine podcast. I'm your host, Noel Custis, and
(00:20):
I am so excited for today's episode.
Today's guest, believe it or not, is someone I connected with
when I was at a networking eventin Boise, of all places.
And I got to meet Jessica. And within minutes, I knew that
I needed to know her. Her style, her vibe, her
(00:41):
presence. Well, it is all very magnetic.
And since then, we've stayed in touch in the background.
And the more I have learned about her, the more I have had,
I've admired just her bold, beautiful way that she moves
through life. And Jessica, a little bit about
her is a wife. She's also an ex-wife.
(01:02):
She's a mom and a stepmom. We have that in common.
And she is a powerhouse decisionmaker.
She's built a life and a movement around helping women
ditch the overthinking and I love that ditching the people
pleasing and the need to explainthemselves.
Through her signature BBB decision making formula, she's
(01:25):
guiding others to lead boldly and live in alignment with who
they were truly created to be. Welcome Jessica.
So fun to have you today. Oh my goodness.
Thank you so much for having me.It's so fun to like, be able to
connect again and be able to chat together.
Yeah. I love it.
I love it. Well, like I said, we have so
(01:47):
much in common and then we have so much that's not in common
that I just love about your story.
And I, like I said, I really feel like since I have met you
and then just in the couple of years that I've gotten to follow
along, I have just been so impressed by the way you lead
(02:08):
and by the way you speak your truth.
And I feel like it is so important for women to have that
permission to do that. And I feel like that's exactly
what you do. So for all the women out there
that have not met you yet, I would love for you to just tell
us a little bit about yourself before we really dive into all
(02:29):
the goodness and just about yourjourney that's LED you here
today. Sounds great.
And to preface this like it's interesting because I do a lot
of podcast interviews and thingslike this and whenever people
say nice things about me at the beginning of these, as a woman,
we are so conditioned to like not let that come in.
(02:49):
And I get teary every time. So thank you for the kind words.
I appreciate that. And I'm getting better at just
letting them come and think, wow, that's amazing because we
tend to deflect. So thank you always appreciated
yes. So my story really began.
I always say like when I met my ex-husband, people always that's
(03:12):
when things got interesting in my life.
I grew up in a very conservativeChristian religion was a very
straight edge individual, exceptthat I never looked that way.
So there was a lot of people being like, Oh well, Jessica's
this one way like me getting viewed as a certain type of way.
I was always viewed as you know,somebody who is a druggie or
(03:34):
doing like drinking on the weekends and partying and I
never was. I was very straight edge very by
the book, but I didn't look at Ialways like to have fun with who
I was and all those things. So there was all of that leading
up to when I met my husband, my ex-husband Steve.
And he was raised in the same religion and he wanted that like
(03:56):
he wanted somebody that was alsoin the religion, but like that
looked different. And even though he couldn't
vocalize that, that was really the thing that I realized that
connected us is neither of us really fit, even though we were
very much trying to fit. So we met, we fell in love.
It was very much a quick like wemet one day and we were together
(04:18):
the next day and every day afterthat that we could be and, and
we met in February, we were married in December.
So it was a very quick romance and we really enjoyed each other
and all of these things. And people talk about like that
first idyllic year of marriage or like, no, that it's the
hardest year of marriage. And I'm like, no, we had this
(04:38):
idyllic like first year of marriage, like it was easy to to
mesh our lives together. And I say that and then I always
think, OK, but six months into our marriage, I found a bunch of
pornography on our computer one day.
And I remember when like back inthe day, pop ups would just pop
(04:59):
up on your computer and you'd belike, OK, what's going on?
Like if you had clicked the linkor something, it could create
all these pop ups that would show up.
And I got on the computer and that's how I found all this
pornography was all of these popups.
Now in our religion, first and foremost, pornography was like
shame, like shameful. And I already knew Steve looked
at pornography, but what I wasn't prepared for was there
(05:20):
was no women in in these videos,in these pictures.
And I was like, OK, hold up. We have something different
going on here. There's there's no women.
This is all men. And I thought, I'm pretty sure
my husband's gay. Now, that doesn't necessarily
mean he is gay. People are into what they're
into. But for me, there was like this
(05:40):
inner knowing that I'm pretty sure my husband is gay.
And I talked to him that night and he was like, no, I'm not
gay. I just didn't want to disrespect
women. And he was in extreme denial.
He had very much convinced himself that that was his truth.
And he later told me he's like, that night when we talked about
that was the first time I had let myself even think the words
(06:01):
I am gay, like, have it be a consideration in his head.
I was like, OK, so we both kind of just tucked this in the
background and continue forward in our marriage.
Couple years later, he's in counseling and the counselors
like, yeah, these things you're dealing with an issue, but the
real issue is that you're gay. And so until you deal with this
and kind of address and accept this part of you, you're going
(06:23):
to struggle with all these otherthings.
And at that point, he came out to me and we decided to continue
forward. Like it just felt right for both
of us. And people hear that and they
were like, you guys are nuts. And I get it, it sounds crazy,
but it was what was best for both of us.
So we continued forward. We brought a beautiful little
girl into our lives and we endedup getting divorced.
(06:46):
About 7 years into our marriage,Steve had an affair.
We tried to work through the affair and it was just too much
of a mess at that point. And I was just like you, we're
ready like go be your true self.I will go be my true self.
As long as we can come together and figure out how to raise this
little girl together, we are fine.
Like we can figure this out. And I say that like there was a
(07:08):
lot of emotion in that. There was it's, it's everything
that happens when somebody has an affair or goes outside of the
boundaries of what you have established in your marriage.
All of those feelings and emotions came with that.
And also a deep sense of like shame on Steve's part and also
figuring out who he is now and, and all of the things.
(07:30):
So we went through that whole process, but we did it with the
intention of being able to stay close enough that our daughter,
who is now 15, she was 2 at the time we got divorced, would be
able to have parents that she didn't have to worry about if
they were in the same room. And also that our partners,
whoever we invited in the long term, that we could all be
together. And it was never about us.
(07:52):
It was always about Penny. Like we got to be there for
Penny in whatever way she wantedus to be so that she didn't have
to worry about her parents. That was like my intention in
our divorce besides healing myself and all those things
which I knew I had to do for that to happen.
And so we, we continued with that.
I ended up getting married a year and a half later, which is
(08:13):
also super nuts after dating himfor eight weeks.
I didn't know him for longer than that and worked through all
of the mess that comes with second marriages.
I thought, OK, this is going to be easy, I'm married to a
straight man now. Like this is great and it was a
complete disaster for the first few years to the extent that I
(08:35):
have left at one point and worked through all that.
So here we are. We've been, we're coming up on
our 13 or 12 year wedding anniversary and during all this
process, Steve and I and Matt, Matt's, my current husband,
Steven's, my ex-husband, would like share parts of our story
with people and would realize that this really resonated.
(08:58):
We hear so much of like through divorce and just in life in
general, of so much of the negative things that happens in
families that we don't get to see when people actually come
together to make it work to figure out how to love and
support each other along the way.
And you ask my current husband right now and he will say, like,
I love Steve. I love him kind of like a
(09:21):
brother at this point. I view Steve is like I that deep
of a love that I love him that deeply.
We do holidays together, we do Christmases like birthdays
together, including like Steve'sbirthday, which happens to be
this week and all of these things so that we can create a
good situation for ourselves andfor our daughter, which has led
(09:42):
me to now let we, we share our story in a podcast.
That's where I was going with that.
Like we need more of that. So Steve and I and Matt came
together and started a podcast sharing our story.
And we always say it was about love, marriage, divorce, coming
out, like all of the things so that people felt less alone in
their story. And it's interesting because we
don't have to have lived like you and I were saying, the exact
(10:04):
same lives. We might have some things that
are similar to be able to resonate with all of those
things that happened. And so we put that out there.
And then I started coaching women along the way.
And I was coaching women who hadhad a partner come out.
And then I was coaching women who had experienced divorce or
betrayal. And now I coach women and
helping them figure out how to make decisions for themselves
(10:25):
that are in alignment because that is the one thing that
stayed true for me through all of this is being able to make
decisions that were in alignmentwith who I was and what I
needed. And and all of that along the
way so that I didn't lose myselfin the process.
So that's like the very short version of my story and how I've
(10:47):
gotten to where I am today. It's been a up and down journey.
But I always tell people, if youwant like the whole story and
the details from both sides of it, go listen to our podcast.
It's called Husband in Law. We don't release episodes
anymore, but it is all there. Start with episode 1.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, and gosh, you know, so
(11:07):
much to unpack, I know. And I'm sure for women
listening, they're like, whoa, did she just say all of that?
Oh my gosh. Because I remember when we had
met and you had given me not even all of that story, but at
the time you were doing your podcast and you were coaching
women that their spouses had come out.
(11:30):
And I just remember being like, wow, like what a story Because
it's just you think it's not something you hear very often.
But what was so intriguing to meis that I tuned in to some of
your, you know, episodes and I was like, wow, there's way more
(11:54):
people out there dealing with these kinds of things that keep
so hidden. And what a relief for a space
for women to feel seen and heardand to have a place that they
can even be coached. I always say, you know, I mean,
yes, there's all the certifications.
There's all the things, you know, that we have as coaches
(12:16):
and you know, or some don't have, but I'm like, it's the,
it's the experiences too, that bring so much into your space.
And one of the things I am so curious about because I, you
know, I, I am sure our listenersare going to have tons of
questions and, you know, I want to kind of, we'll, we'll go
(12:38):
through it gradually. But one of the things that I was
really curious about is how has your experience of, you know,
rewinding back to that time and,you know, even to where you are
now? How has that influenced your
views on yourself worth on love?What?
What does that look like for you?
(13:01):
It's interesting like my views of self worth for myself have
grown drastically of recognizingthe strength that I have carried
through all of this and also being able to recognize in the
moment that this I am, I'm strong and strong doesn't always
mean I'm pushing through or I amliving into what's expected of
(13:23):
me. Strong means doing what is best
for me. Strong means breaking down and
being like I can't do this today.
I remember there were plenty of times showing up at my parents
house and I had a 2 year old when I'm going through a divorce
and being like here is my daughter, please take her for
the day. I am a mess like right and
leaving. And so strength looks like that.
(13:43):
The strength is being able to state what it is we need and and
being curious enough and gettinguncomfortable enough to figure
that out. So for me, my my worth was was
strengthened of, of all of, you know, realizing this isn't about
me and being able to detach fromthat because we internalize so
(14:04):
much of what our partners do is like, oh, this is all about me.
How do I fix it? How do I come to terms with
that? And me being very much like this
has nothing to do with me. I mean, it seems pretty
straightforward, but I work witha lot of women who have had gay
partners. And we don't think that way.
Just kind of like if there's betrayal, we think it's all
about us. Like they did this because I
wasn't enough and we have to prove ourselves.
(14:25):
And so being able to release that need to prove my worth and
now is tested really hard when Imarried my second husband
because there was a desire to prove I didn't want to fail
again. I didn't want my marriage to
fall apart. And so that that was when it was
the hardest to accept my worth and be able to live into it
without needing to prove it. Second part of that question, I
(14:48):
can't remember what you said. Oh, and just, you know, on your
views on love even. OK, yes, views on love.
This is the other thing that I, I mean, my whole goal in this
life and in leadership and beingsomebody who's willing to be
seen is to help people rethink love because love is completely
(15:10):
expansive. I mean, I think about if you
have more than one children, child, more than one child, I do
not. I just have the one, but I know
how this works of like you love them just as much.
Like if you have another one, the love expands.
We think that like, how could I love someone or something as
much as this first kid as much as this one being.
And then we have another and it's like, whoa, I get to love
(15:34):
more deeply. And I think that's one of the
things that has really hit home to me is when I show up in love,
it gets to expand. So I love Steve deeply.
And people online, of course, like I get so much crazy, like
so much craziness in my comments, which is totally fine.
But people can't grasp that. People can't understand that
(15:54):
love expands. They'll be like, oh, your poor
husband, you're still in love with your ex.
Oh, your poor, like ex, like allof these things.
And I'm like, this is because wecan't perceive how big love gets
to be. And in that when we can
understand how to love ourselves, it on a deep level,
it expands that love as well. And Matt, my current husband,
(16:17):
thankfully can be like, I can see and understand this.
Like I understand your love and appreciation for Steve and also
know that doesn't like take anything away from our
relationship and the love that we feel for each other.
It's completely different type of love.
I have a quote on my office wall.
This is my Home Office, my otheroffice that says there are all
(16:39):
types of love in this world, butnever the same love twice.
And I believe that's Fitzgerald,F Scott Fitzgerald.
And that is something that I just truly believe.
Like there are so many differenttypes of love in this world that
we can experience, that we get to experience when we allow
ourselves to that there's just, it's just never the same.
And so we can't understand otherpeople's love.
(17:01):
Like people aren't going to understand how I love my
ex-husband and they don't have to.
The idea is that we understand that love gets to be expansive
and we get to feel it in so manydifferent ways.
And this is exactly what it was that this energy about you that
I was so drawn to because that is where I felt, believe it or
(17:25):
not. I mean, yes, I, there were other
things I could relate with you on, but this was something that
I feel like ironically, because I don't understand it, that
people have a hard time understanding is this expansive
love and the different types of love because that is who I am
(17:47):
and, and I am with you. So I've also gone through a
divorce. I have two children from my
previous husband and, you know, we were together for almost 20
years and I am now remarried andjust, you know, so happy and
just on a, you know, in a completely different
(18:08):
relationship. And there were a lot of really
hard, horrible things that happened in my first marriage.
But I, I still love him and I have a love for him that I
always want. Like, my heart's desire is for
(18:29):
him to always feel loved by his people, to know that, you know,
he does have people out there that love him and that his, you
know, well-being is, you know, something that's super important
to me. And same thing.
People are shocked that I feel that way and because of our past
(18:52):
and what had happened. But there's something about it.
And, and I think that's what I admire so much about your
relationship with your with yourex and even his loves and his
life and then having, I mean, thank goodness, you know, we are
both married to people that understand that.
And because again, I not everybody does and and I guess
(19:16):
to be in our world, you would have to understand it, right,
because that's who we are and that is how we are going to
carry on our lives. And and they know that.
And but I just, I really commendyou for it because not only have
you shown that love, but you've also put out into the world this
(19:40):
Gosh, I'm trying to look for thethink of the words that I'm
trying to say is that you've putout into the world that it's OK
and that you can still you. We don't have to live with all
of this hate, even if we don't agree.
I mean, and this goes on so manylevels, but I just feel like,
gosh, if we, if we could be grounded in this and understand.
(20:02):
And I think you're right. I think it is a self love which.
It's hard, that's even hard for me to understand because
sometimes I go, gosh, I, I feel like I've been so hard on
myself, you know, but yet I knowthat everyone is worth having
that and I just, I don't know, Ijust really admire you for what
you have done and that relationship that you've built
(20:26):
and that your child gets to experience that gets to live in
a family that comes together andis able to, is able to function
in this space. Because even though it might be
hard and tricky sometimes and it's not always, you know,
(20:47):
perfectly clean. It can be messy, for sure, but
that she's going to grow up knowing that this is what her
mom and her dad and her stepdad have built a life upon, which I
just think is huge. It's just huge.
Yeah. And ideally, what I hope for her
is that she understands no matter what her life looks like,
(21:09):
what she chooses for her life tobe is we are here supporting
that and kind of breaking down these boxes of what her life
needs to be. Because as humans, we want it to
fit in a box. We want it to look a certain
way. And that's why it's hard to see
love outside of that box, outside of what we know is
because there's so many ways it can look.
(21:31):
And when we start breaking down the box, it's like, Oh my gosh,
I, I can't, can't comprehend this.
And our human brains are like freaking out, trying to keep us
safe. No, totally stay in the box.
This is what you've seen. Stay there.
And so that's, that's part of my, one of my biggest hopes for
her. I used to say, you know, like I
wanted Steve and I to be in the room together with whoever else
(21:52):
was in our lives at that time when she gets married and when
she has a kid and when she graduates.
And now I'm like, I don't even know what those events look like
in her life. And I don't want her to think
that it has to look any certain way or whatever, but that she
gets to decide what those important moments are and
whatever they are, we're there. And this comes back to a lot of
(22:12):
like what you were talking aboutand, and my ideal life for
Penny. And there isn't an ideal life.
It's whatever she creates. But is this should that we get
ourselves stuck in? Is there so much of the should
of what our life should look like that then we can't pull
ourselves out to think any differently?
(22:34):
You know, we should the paths there for so many of us, whether
we've been in religion or not, there's this idea of like, OK, I
go to school, I I graduate, I goto college, I get married, I
have children. I and in that I marry a like
person of the other gender. Like all of these things are
just kind of ingrained in our lives of this is how it's
supposed to look. This is how my relationships
(22:56):
should look. And if I'm going to get
divorced, if my husband has an affair, then I should be pissed
and angry and never forgive that.
And I'm like, what a sad way to live for like that isn't serving
you. That isn't going to make you
happy. Do you want boundaries?
100%? But that doesn't mean you have
to carry anger and resentment your whole life or you don't
(23:18):
have to stay in a marriage that isn't serving you just because
it's what you thought was right for you 20 years ago.
You know, like all of these things, we get so stuck in the
should. And I am just like we are
leaving that should behind and making the decisions that feel
best for us. No right or wrong in that, no
good or bad, just our next best decision and that's going to
(23:42):
lead us where we need to be. Right.
And so, I mean, you know, going into, and I definitely want to
talk about this, but I, I'm justso curious when, what is your
advice for someone who knows what they want but fears how
other people will perceive theirdecision or who they are?
(24:02):
Yeah, So often times with my clients, what I will do is I'm
like, you need to embark on either a should challenge or a
trust your gut challenge. It kind of they're similar but
different. So one of them with the should
challenge is I'm going to find one thing a day where I'm
shooting on myself. It could be I should do this
workout, I should eat this food,I should style my hair this way
(24:25):
because that's what my partner likes or whatever.
I should wear this outfit because that's what I've been
told is appropriate or that's what is whatever, you know?
Then I look the best for other people.
So identifying those shots and Itell people, identify one a day
and realize first and foremost how much you're shooting on
yourself of like living into this idea of what it is, what's
(24:49):
expected of me, of what life should look like.
And then I often tell them, now we're going to graduate to a
trust your gut challenge. And this is where we take one
thing a day and we act on it. So if we are shooting on
ourselves about what we should wear, then we are going to go
back and we're going to be like,what do I want to wear today?
(25:10):
What is actually going to feel good in my body?
What is going to like make me feel honestly, what it does when
you do this is then you don't even think about yourself
anymore. You're not uncomfortable in your
clothes. You're not thinking about what
they're doing because it's something you want to wear.
And so you actually get to thinkabout other people more in the
long run. But for now, we're just coming
(25:31):
down to trusting our gut in one way every day.
Now, what this does is it buildsa trust and confidence with
ourselves. So over time we realize, oh, I
did this and the nothing happened, nothing horrible
happened. Maybe that person thought
something about my outfit, but Idon't care because I felt good.
(25:54):
And honestly, you stopped thinking about it.
I don't think about what other people think about my hair or
what I wear or any of these things.
Like it's not something that crosses my mind because I've
been doing this for so long. I don't care.
Now, maybe some bigger things. I still have to work through
those issues, but it gives us a way to start working through
those and to start realizing it's not the end of the world
(26:15):
when I do what is best for me. Even in the little things.
Especially in the little things because those prepare us for
making those big decisions of like Oh my gosh, I know my
parents are going to lose it when I tell them this is
actually something that happenedthat I tell them I am dating my
gay ex-husband again. So we are divorced and I dated
(26:38):
my ex-husband again after that divorce.
My parents are going to die and I'm sure they did, I am sure of
it. And also I knew it was what was
best for me at the time. And so it just didn't matter.
Like does it sound insane? 100% but it doesn't matter what
anybody else thought because I knew that's what Steve and I
(26:58):
needed at the time. And so if we can start
instilling that trust back with ourselves and that connection
back to ourselves on small things on a daily basis, it
allows us to release that peoplepleasing.
It starts helping us feel safe in our own body, like goes into
that nervous system regulation and all of those things so that
we feel safe to then take actionon bigger things.
(27:21):
Still scary. Still like, I don't know if this
is going to go my way, but we don't have other people's voices
in the back of our head constantly telling us like, oh,
but you should do this. Oh, but that's dumb.
Whatever, it can sound insane. I don't care.
It's what I'm going to do because it's what's best for me.
Oh, that's so good. Because I, I just love the idea
(27:42):
of trusting ourselves because that really, when I started
doing the work several years ago, I realized that that was
part of my issue is that I didn't trust myself because I
didn't follow through with certain things or because I
would say I was gonna do one thing and I wouldn't do it.
And it just became a pattern. And I'm so, so curious about
(28:04):
this because you radiate this unapologetic energy.
I have to say you definitely do.And I know that at the
beginning, when you talked aboutyour story, you said, you know,
even when you were in this very conservative church and, you
know, in this religion, you werealways different.
You always stood out. You always dressed a little bit
(28:25):
different, maybe had an edge to you.
And so there's definitely a boldness with you.
Has that always been that? Where do you think that that
came from at a young age? Or do you just, have you always
felt like you've been this way? I think that this is one of the
gifts I was given in life, that this is the way I was created.
(28:46):
And that that is one of the things that, again, like you're
saying, like brings people to mebecause when we are safe being
ourselves, it gives other peoplethe permission to be themselves
and to say, hey, I'm going to dothis thing.
And it sounds crazy, but I thinkyou'll understand.
Or at least be like, yes, you gowithout judging and without all
(29:07):
those things. Like that is a gift that I've
been given. Now, it doesn't mean that I
haven't taken time to understandwhy I am this way and what
actually allows me to live into this.
I remember as a teenager very much struggling with the fact
that I wanted to be different. Like, I wanted to have weird
hair and I wanted to dress. I always wore weird tights all
(29:29):
the time. Like, that was my thing.
Like, I don't know, they were weird and it was great.
And part of me still does that, but there was just this knowing
of like, this is okay. I remember kind of like going to
God with it actually, and just being like, hey, my intention
isn't to be rebellious. But also I'm being told this
isn't how I should look. This isn't how I should dress
(29:53):
and just coming to this place ofrealizing this isn't out of
rebellion. This isn't out of any of those
things. It's actually me trusting God to
be who I was created to be. And once I embrace that, that I
was that, that listening to our inner knowing is actually
trusting universe, whoever, whatever you believe in to guide
(30:14):
you, then it's like, Oh, I don'tneed to care what anybody else
thinks because I know it's in meand I know it's guiding me
towards my purpose on earth, my mission, my, my ability to love
other people. Now I want to touch on real
quick this idea of trusting ourselves because so many of us
as women don't know how to trustourselves.
(30:36):
And I, I go back to when we werekids, we are the first person we
were taught not to trust. And I think this is really
important for us to understand so that we can give ourselves
grace in learning how to trust ourselves.
We were taught not to trust ourselves at very young age when
we were told it doesn't hurt that bad, you're OK.
(30:58):
You shouldn't feel that way. You shouldn't want that.
You shouldn't dress that way. That looks weird.
You're not going to be accepted.You should whatever you need to
do this and that to fit in. And it amplifies the older we
get and we disconnect farther and farther away from ourselves.
And so it takes time and a lot of intention to then come back
(31:20):
to trusting ourselves. But it is possible.
And I have lost myself a few times along the way, like I'm
nobody does this perfectly. But also we can come back to
ourselves. And also there are things we can
do to regain that trust with ourselves.
And that's the only thing we really need in life is trust of
ourselves. People are like, I don't know
how to trust again after, after betrayal, after my partner did
(31:43):
this or that. And I'm like, you don't have to
trust them. You have to learn to trust
yourself again. Yes, so good, so good.
Say that louder. Yeah.
Because I think that is so important that it's not about,
like you said, the distrust of other people, It's trusting
ourselves. And what a great point that, you
(32:05):
know, again, these are the typesof things that start to happen
at an early age when we are children and the messages that
were given. And, you know, and, and that's
probably why I love doing this podcast more than anything and
just speaking with women and coaching with women because it
has helped me so much as a parent.
(32:27):
I mean, I had a great mom and she did the best that she could
and her mom did the best that she could.
And I'm doing the best that I can.
But I also know I look at my daughter and I see this person
that she's becoming and I alwaystell her, I go, man, she's 23.
And I say what you know and how you live out your life at age
(32:49):
23. It took me 45 years to figure
that out. And it is so awesome to see.
And she's always been, I kind ofgiggled when you said and I
always wore the different tights, like, Oh my gosh, that
was my kid. She was the girl that she wore
uniforms to school. And I remember the one the well,
(33:12):
two things that they did not make as part of the uniform was
socks. You could pretty much wear
whatever socks you wanted. So of course was my daughter in
all the rainbow socks and the, you know, there was fluffy balls
on her socks and everything elseyou could imagine.
And then she got into hats. And then it was like, oh, well,
(33:32):
this is my way of showing my style.
And again, it was that bite yourtongue.
I was a teacher at this school. So of course I'm going.
OK. I gotta like make sure it's, you
know, within the space of like, I'm still a teacher.
I have to respect the rules. However, she had a point.
I'm like, that's not in the rules.
(33:53):
And I wanted her to be able to express herself.
And that was something I felt like I really wasn't able to do.
And, and not purposely, but it was, it was ought to me to, you
know, like you're, you look weird.
You don't want people to think that or, you know, you need to
look like this. And I mean, it was definitely
how I was raised. And so, you know, and it was, it
(34:16):
was, it was a learning experience for me.
And now I see her as this adult and just, gosh, I just go, man,
girl, I love, I love how you're able to live out this boldness
more so than what I was and justfeeling so much more comfortable
in her skin, even though, you know, again, nothing's perfect
and they're, you know, they're still things, but that in that
(34:40):
area, I'm like, OK, this is good, this is good, you know,
and so I do love that. But now going into some more of
the work that you do, I know that we we're talking about like
how you work with your clients. I know that you created the BBB
decision making formula. So is that is that aligned with
(35:03):
some of the things that you weresharing before or is that a
framework that you could walk usthrough and tell us about?
Yeah, it's 100% in alignment with what I was talking about
before and is a process that we can dive into.
So there are three BS obviously that we go into.
The 1st is be gentle. And I always tell people being
gentle with ourselves is 60% of the decision making process.
(35:27):
And it is this basically on learning or learning how to be
gentle with ourselves of releasing judgement, releasing
those shoulds, really taking time to sort through all of
those things so that we are not judging ourselves with
everything that it is we want. I want to dress this way.
Oh, but I shouldn't Every time you say should, you are placing
(35:48):
the judgement on something that you want to do.
It's the easiest way to catch that judgement is just by
hearing the word should. And you're like, take it.
You're going to hear all the time.
Now I'm. Going to note to self on that
one. Going to come up, but just being
able to do that of of releasing that judgement that we put on
ourselves. And once we start getting in a
(36:09):
pattern of being able to releasethat judgement, we get to move
to the next step, which is beinghumble.
And being humble doesn't mean we're a doormat.
It doesn't mean we aren't proud of ourselves.
It doesn't mean any of that. It means that we are releasing
our ego. So we have to release the ego so
that we can be wrong about how we thought life should look, how
(36:29):
we thought we should live. And when we can release that
ego, it opens up this world of there are so many different ways
my life could look and it doesn't mean anything about me.
And I'm not responsible for other people's thoughts,
feelings and beliefs about what I do.
So this is kind of the step where we unlearn the people
pleasing and we silence the noise of other people's
(36:52):
opinions. We get clear about our values so
that we can show up in those values.
I mean, that was one of the things like as a teenager, real.
I'm not bad, this is just important to me.
Being myself and expressing myself is important to me.
I always say boldness is one of my top values and has been, I
can trace it though my whole life.
(37:12):
And so I can make decisions based on that.
So we go into, we have the firstpart that's be gentle, learning
how to be gentle with ourselves,releasing that judgement, being
kind. 60% of the process, it's the hardest work. 30% of the
process is this understanding ofhow we get to know ourselves.
Again, creating that trust in ourselves, regaining those
(37:35):
things. And so 10% of the process, this
little part up here is what we actually think about when we
think of decision making is taking the action.
And so overcoming the fear and taking action and understanding
this might not go the way that Ihad planned and it doesn't
matter. I just need the information.
We like to like, overthink everything and like go to our
(37:58):
aunt and our cousin and our dad and you know whoever to get all
the information and Google and Instagram and Pinterest and
gather all this information about what we should do.
And it keeps us from taking action when really if we took
action, then we would have the clarity we need to go forward
again and to go forward again. Now, if it doesn't go as
(38:20):
planned, that is information youcan use.
That is where we are. Like, OK, I need to shift this
way. Like now I know for sure this
wasn't the right path for me. That's OK.
It doesn't mean my intuition's off.
It means that I needed to understand this and experience
it so I can go this direction. And so that's kind of the last
step is be bold. And it's taking that action,
(38:41):
being true to who we are. And I always preface that this
because I do, you know, I had a shaved head for years.
Like this is the most tear I've had in a long time.
And like all of these things, like this doesn't mean you go
shave your head. This doesn't mean you wear the
same things I wear. Like I am not trying to turn
anybody into me. My own goal and intention is to
get you in tune with you. Now I create a really safe space
(39:05):
to do that, a very judgement free zone to do that.
And that is my goal is that you get to hear and understand your
own voice on a deep level. So you are taking action on
that. So we got to be gentle, we got
to be humble, and then we get tobe bold.
Love, love that so much and and I can say first hand, I mean, I
(39:27):
like I said, I've been followingyou for two years and I know
that everything that you put outthere is exactly that.
You clearly live by that. And again, just so, so much love
for that because you truly are walking the walk and, and I love
too that you and I absolutely trust that you are letting and
(39:52):
allowing other people to feel safe because there is no
judgement. It is just simply be who you are
and have that safe space to cometo for that.
So. Oh my gosh, so many things.
But I, I want to ask you becauseI would love to know what is
lighting you up right now personally or professionally
(40:12):
that you are excited to share with the world.
Share with all of our listeners.Yeah, so one thing first and
foremost as I'm sitting looking out my window is summertime and
sunshine. I forever am summer and sunshine
and just I know that like we think of winter as a season of
rest, but I feel like summer is my season of rest.
(40:32):
I well and maybe every season ofmy life because I believe women
just do too much in general. And so right now, like laying by
the pool and just taking afternoons to relax like that is
something that lights me up. And also professionally, I am
launching a book and I am so excited about it because it's
talking about these principles and helping it get into the
(40:55):
hands of so many more women thatcan then take take these steps
and work through them on their own or join me along the way.
But they have a reference of, oh, I can go back to this
chapter and read about being bold.
I can go back here and read about being gentle and have
things that help me work throughthis process of learning to
trust myself again and those things that keep us from being
(41:16):
able to trust ourselves. So those are things I'm excited
about summer and my book launch.I'm just really pumped about
those. I am so excited, Jessica, and I
just want to say so much. Thank you for being here and
sharing your truth so boldly andbeautifully of course too.
But I know every woman right now, I, I really feel this in my
(41:37):
heart is walking away with a deeper sense of just that
clarity and permission to just be who she was created to be.
And that's what that's what I, you know, was hoping for with
having you here. It's exactly what you shared
with us. And I love it cuz you are really
such a light. You're such a force.
And I'm so grateful that our paths crossed that day in Boise
(42:01):
of all places. And I really hope, I cannot wait
for this book to come out. I really hope that this is just
going to be the beginning of more conversations like this
because I just think that it is such a reminder.
And it is my hope with this podcast that women will start to
realize that we don't have to overthink and over explain or
(42:23):
overcompensate and that we can live boldly and we can live
fully and be the person that we are meant to be.
So I'm super excited and Jessica, can you just tell us
where everyone can find you and all of the things?
We will have them in the show notes, but I'd love for you to
just share with us. Yeah.
So if you are interested, you can get on the wait list for the
(42:45):
book at Shove Your shoulds.com/book Wait List.
So Shove Your Shoulds. That is the name, that is the
title of the book because we aregoing to shove those shoulds out
of our lives. But you can find me on Instagram
at Hey, Jessica Fru. That is where I am by far the
most active. Those are probably the two best
(43:07):
places to go right now. And then if you want to go back
and listen to our podcast, it iscalled Husband in Law.
It is out there if you are looking for it.
Awesome. And you guys, to everyone
listening, if today sparks something in you, please follow
that. Make your next best decision.
Be bold, be you. And as always, thank you so much
(43:28):
Jessica, and keep rising, keep shining and know that your best
day is right here waiting for you.
Bye friends. Thanks for having me.
Thank you. Thanks for joining me here
today. Your presence means the world to
me. If you enjoyed what you heard,
please consider leaving a ratingand review and don't forget to
follow or subscribe so you nevermiss an episode.
(43:49):
Head to the show notes and let'sconnect.
Rise to Shine Co is ready to support you in coaching,
collaboration, light tips, or even a coffee chat.
Until next time, keep shining myfriends.
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