5 Predictions For The Running Event, Dick's Assimilates Foot Locker & Is Resale Profitable?

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Rock fight. Rock fight. RockFight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock
fight.
Welcome to the Rock Fight,where we speak our truth, slay sacred
cows, and sometimes agree todisagree. This is an outdoor podcast
that aims for the head. I'mColin True, and joining me today,
if I have one rule in life,that's anytime. Producer Dave and

(00:21):
Owen Comerford and I offerpredictions for the running event.
Then we have to be joined byGhira Abbey herself. It's Chante
Salibair.
She's back on the Runway.
So glad to be here. Just toadd a little flavor to the Brody.
Thanks for having me, guys.
Rodeo. Okay. No, Much needed.
Yes.
Listen, the outdoor industryhas a reputation. We're just working
to uphold it.
Just injecting some femininemystique here, that's all.

(00:44):
Well, today we have a coupleof quick topics to hit on before
the four of us preview therunning event and Switchback, which
is set to kick off 24 hoursafter this podcast comes out. Then
stick around to the end of theepisode for the final interview that
we recorded at Goa Connectlast month, this time with Fjall
Ravens. Nathan do. But beforewe get to any of that, some programming
reminders. Let's start withwhat we're all doing this week. Guys,

(01:05):
are you ready to see the RockFight live two days from now? You
can come see everyone you'relistening to on this podcast. That's
me, Shantae, Producer Dave andthe consigliere Owen Comerford will
be at the running event. ThisWednesday, December 3rd. We'll be
doing a live taping of theRock Fight in the training camp theater
right by the switchback sideof the event. We're going to be joined
on stage by a bunch ofdifferent guests. We're going to

(01:25):
hear from Gear Abby, you'regoing to get producer Dave and the
rest of our crew's assessmentof of the booth situation. Will code
epoxy rebound from summerSwitchback? We're going to find out.
I think they will. I thinkthey'll bring it.
I think they took a dog.
I think we're in their heads.
Yeah, they did.
Yeah.
So if you were at SwitchbackSpring, you know how much fun we're
going to have. I hope to seeanyone listening to this who's going

(01:46):
to be at the running event,please come see the show. And hey,
guys, just because she'll bein San Antonio does not mean that
you won't get a new episode ofGear Abbey this Thursday. So make
sure you're following the GearAbbey podcast. And lastly, we want
to Hear from you. Emailus@myrockfightmail.com, reach out
on LinkedIn. Search it up.It's Rock Fight over there. Go on
Instagram or Rock Fight.
Co.
Send us a message. We want tohear from you. We have a. Now that

(02:08):
Shantae's here, we need tomake sure she knows that we are aiming
to outdraw the amount ofemails we get here at the Rock Fight.
It's.
We're losing battery.
GearAbbyMail.com is what Colinmeant to say.
Yeah, Gear Abbey isslaughtering us. After 15 episodes,
we have like 400 plus rockfighting. You know, it's like, I
just.

(02:28):
I love having pen pals. Keepwriting to me, people.
Well, maybe we need our own Qand A section, Colin, so we can,
you know, take on Gear Abby. Wow.
A Q and A section hosted byGear Abby on the Rock Fight.
No.
Yes.
No.
The empire grows.
The only one allowed to answerquestions on the Rock Fight podcast
network is Shantae Salovet.

(02:48):
That's it.
Speaking of listener mail, wedo have a quick stop in the mailbag
today, which we're. In lieu ofa parting shot, where is presented
by Garage Grown Gear. I forgotto write in some new products from
Garage Grown Beer.
Beer.
Garage Grown Beer.
Is that their new product?
Spin off brand for.
What is the thing?
New products?
It's ultralight. It's veryaerated. You know, it's dehydrated.
It's like.

(03:08):
That's the thing.
What's that?
Dehydrated beer. That is thething. Yeah.
Oh, my God.
Yeah.
Right? Or is it just nips of beer?
Just in the little. Like inthe little eyedropper. Ultralight
things you can buy on grocery store.
Shantae joins the pod. Andalready Colin is talking about nips.
I mean, come on, is that my fault?

(03:29):
Like alcohol nips. You knowwhat I'm talking about.
Sorry.
Who's the filthy one now, Owen?
Finally, for once.
All right. We received thefollowing email from Becky in response
to our conversation about thePatagonia impact report a few weeks
back. Becky apparently worksfor Tersys Solutions, whose CEO Peter
Whitcomb, has appeared on theRock Fight in the past. And Becky
took some exception withsomething we said about the resale

(03:51):
marketplace. And she wrote in,I want to pick a bit of a fight as
your Patagonia and Viori show.As on your Patagonia and Vori show,
someone mentioned that resaleisn't profitable. This is 100% not
true. We at Tersa Solutionshave dozens of partners all turning
a profit on their resalechannels. Also, the data is in for
2026. Throughout multiplechannels, resale is growing leaps

(04:12):
and bounds over retail. So,Owen, I think this is something in
reference to what you said. Isthat correct?
Absolutely. And hey, listen,we love the resale channel. We're
big fans of it here on therock 5. It is growing by leaps and
bounds. It is the future inmany cases. But I would also say
it is, at least from myexperience, hasn't been terribly

(04:32):
profitable. And the reason forthat is just because consumers obviously
expect a significantly lowerprice for the used items, but they're
actually a lot more difficultto handle than new. Right. Because
each one is a unit of one. Andso each one has to be separately
identified. Like you might noteven know what it is. Right. You
say you have to identify it,inspect it, photograph it, describe

(04:55):
it. So all of it is tricky.And now obviously, the folks at Tersys,
I'm sure, have done a greatjob putting together a whole process
to do all that, but it's stilla lot more work than just receiving
a case of exactly the samething. Right. So that's the first
thing I would say. The secondthing is that if you look at the
publicly traded companies likeThredUp and the RealReal, they've
never been profitable. Now,yes, they're getting more profitable

(05:18):
or closer to profitability,which is great. And in some cases
they're EBITDA positive,depending on the quarter. But bottom
line, they're not making moneyin terms of brand stores. You know,
I think some will talk aboutprofitability, but really they're
not fully burdening thosestores. So, for example, they're
treating what they're. They'retreating the store credit or the

(05:39):
gift card that they're payingthe consumer for that product as
a marketing expense. So thatdoesn't hit the profitability. Right.
Or they're not talking aboutthe marketing cost to drive the store.
So I think you can get toprofitability if you count things
a little bit differently. So,for example, if your online returns

(06:00):
are helping to drive your usedbusiness, if you just write off that
inventory, so it goes to zero.So then again, the cost of the product
is zero. And so, yes, thenit's profitable. But if you really
look at the overall thing, itis still. I stand by the fact that
it's tough to make money ifyou look at all the costs that go
into it.
Yeah, I think it's a scalething. Right. I mean, so teresys.

(06:20):
And I think this is what Beckyis referring to they are the partner
with Geartrade to kind ofhandle the business for them, the
cleaning, the repair, to makesure things are ready to sell. I
believe they've partnered withCode Epoxy in the past.
For those who don't know,they're partners with most of the
biggest brands, yes.
They are a incrediblyimportant player in changing everything.
That kind of what Owen issaying. But we're still kind of in
early days and frankly theconversations I'm going to pat ourselves

(06:43):
on the back, theseconversations are what needs to happen
to bring more visibility to itand continue to grow. That in addition
to all the little efforts ofspecialty retailers offering their,
you know, closeout andsecondhand parts of their stores
as well.
And I think the other part ofthe scale is having scale in terms
of where the product is sold.So I think selling it on some subsection
of the website for thosebrands typically doesn't actually

(07:06):
move through or sell throughthe goods. You have to really have
the backup of a biggerplatform like Geartrade specifically
to Outdoor or Thredup for thewider platform. And actually I think
the new Codapaxi programthrough ThredUP is really interesting
because they're clear out thecloset program gives people Cotopaxi

(07:26):
credit for anything that theysend in. It isn't just Cotopaxi product
and then it gets doubleexposed on Cotopaxi. At least the
Cotopaxi stuff's on Cotopaxi,but the rest of it is double exposed
on Thredup. Right. So it'sreaching this much, much wider audience
where you can get the sellthrough and then Cotopaxi is getting,
you know, consumers who maybebought something totally different
getting a credit whichobviously then they're going to use

(07:48):
to buy a new product onCotopaxi. So those are the kinds
of programs where I think thisall starts to work together and make
make sense.
Yeah, I think the Tersys Geartrade partnership, the Thredup code
epoxy, like Dave and I caughtsome heat. I think a little over
a year ago we did an episodebecause there was this continuing
trend of hey, we're a brandand now we have a resale section
of our own website where we'rereselling our own stuff. And it's

(08:11):
like, yeah, that's, that'sgood. You weren't doing anything
before, so good for you. Butit doesn't really tip the scales
towards what we actually needwith the, you know, just sheer volume
of excess we have in theapparel marketplace here. So the,
the brands partnering with theTersis or a Thredup, that is a real
meaningful step in the rightdirection here.
I was going to add on to that.I do think that it is a combination
of these, of these scenariosbut a brand agnostic program with

(08:35):
tied to incentive is going tobe the really much needed energy
in the sector to move consumerbehavior. And so I think that like
you said, just the fact thatyou can start to blend brand when
it's talked about the returnor the, you know, the resale is going
to be really important to thisand I think brands are starting to
catch on to that, that theycan't have their own little walled

(08:57):
gardens when it comes toresale piece of this.
Right?
Yeah. See Becky, same team.We're on the same team here.
That's right.
I was going to nitpick hernitpick though and she said that
26, 2026 is already locked up,you know, and showing all of this
growth. We haven't even gottenthere yet. We're projecting, we're
projecting. Let's keep ourfingers crossed.

(09:20):
I know we don't want toembrace any positive news early.
That's right.
So we've had the carpet pulledout from under us way too often.
Right. The second hand tariffis on its.
Way in the predictions.
The 2025 predictions morgue islittered with bad takes.
Yeah, I don't know who you'retalking about, Colin. Certainly no.
No one on this.

(09:41):
Certainly not my Sierra take. No.
All right, well before we getinto our preview of the running event,
there was one news story wewanted to touch on. As it has become.
As it has become clear thatpost their acquisition by Dick's
Sporting Goods there arechanges coming to Foot Locker. So
per SGB last week Chairman ofDick's EdStack said on Dick's quarterly
earnings call that when itcomes to Foot Locker, quote, we need

(10:01):
to clean out the garage ofunderperforming assets, end quote.
Most notably, Dick's isexpected to absorb pre tax charges
between 500 million and $750million as well as close a number
of Foot Locker stores, thenumber of which has yet to be revealed.
So Shantae, can you walk usthrough all this? You know you were.
Oh no, Shanta, can you.
Right on that.
Rose. Owen, can you break allthis down for us? I mean what's with

(10:25):
the pre tax charges? That'ssomething that was completely over
my head about what that even is.
Yeah. So basically, you know,they paid for all these assets, right.
Inventory, store equipment,yada yada that went on their balance
sheet as part of this as partof the acquisition. So now that they're
getting in there, looking atall these assets, they're like, eh,
no, no, no. They're not reallyworth what we paid for them. So we're

(10:45):
going to write them down. Sois just a balance sheet transaction.
There's no cash impact to thebusiness here at all. So it's kind
of cleaning things up a littlebit. Now did. Was this a surprise
to Dick's once they got underthe covers? I don't know. You know,
I was just going to.
Ask you how much of this ispoor due diligence versus just the

(11:06):
natural order?
That never happens.
Speaking from experience, thatnever happens with these sorts of
acquisitions.
Never.
But what I would say is Ithink it's a much needed cleanup.
And listening to the earningscall, I mean Ed was in classic form.

(11:29):
He's a very decisive guy. Eddigs in and once he decides it's
like, okay, we're not going tokind of milk this thing and try to
move through this inventory.It's like, no, no. We're going to
cut and move. Right. And hejust didn't pull any punches. I mean
basically this was really ahuge I gu. Black eyed to the prior

(11:50):
management of Foot Locker.Because basically what Ed said is
that they have the wrongproduct that's merchandise poorly
in bad store locations. I meanthat in some like, you know, they
were doing it.
In short, you.
In short, it was a shit show.Like he was like, like he used the
term retail 101 when talkingabout this. The stuff that was. That's
brutal. Right? So.

(12:11):
But there's no like. Well,thanks to the prior regime, we're
excited to continue on thetime honored tradition of Foot Locker.
Don't let the foot hit you inthe ass.
Oh, absolutely. But it was soreally it's worth your time if you're
a geek like me into this stuffto listen to the earnings call. But
it does sound like a goodchunk of that 500 and 700k is actually

(12:34):
going to be an inventory writedown. Okay. Because basically they're
saying they've got all thewrong stuff. So we're going to basically
flush it for a sense of sortof scale there. They had $1.7 billion
of inventory on the balancesheet in August. So And I think we're
talking about. But you know,they said it was like the majority
was inventory. So maybe 300 to500 million write down on a base

(12:57):
of 1.7 billion. That's a shitton of inventory that they're writing
off.
Yeah. Where's all that goingto go? Where does that all get liquidated?
Sierra. They're called the onthe phone to.
Sierra 100%, believe me. So, Imean, EdStack used the term jobber
on the call, which is like ho, woof.
Whoa.
Yeah, that's a throwback, right?

(13:18):
I mean, so we're talking. So Ithink what's basically going to happen
is that they're going to put aton of stuff on sale here at the
high point of the season. Imean, you may as well like, you know,
fish, while the fish arebiting, take advantage. So they're
going to see major discountson the stuff that they want to go
away for the next, you know,certainly through Christmas and then
maybe into January, I wouldsay. But then whatever doesn't move

(13:40):
pretty early on. It's justgoing to get flushed because they've
already been talking to brandsabout bringing in new product, you
know, where they can fillholes. Right. I mean, there's only
so much that's in the system,but they're going to need to make
space on the shelves and moreimportantly in the back rooms. So
they're just going to broom awhole bunch of stuff.
So yeah, it sounds like theywant to move quickly. Like I said,

(14:01):
they mentioned they want to beready for back to school 20, 26 basically
with whatever their new sortof rollout is going to be.
Yeah, exactly.
So I guess the big question ishow many stores do they.
Hold on real quick. Go back towhen you say when they're going to
flush. Where does flush go andwhat do the brands think about this?
Because it's not footlockerbrand that's being flushed, it's

(14:23):
branded Point. Right. So whatdoes that mean?
You sold us the wrong thing.
That's your fault.
Here's your chargeback.
Right.
I mean, I mean like when yousay is this in the states, is this
internationally, Is theregoing to be all of a sudden a run
of, I don't know, white dunksin the Philippines just like just
everywhere alongside the.
Super bowl loser T shirts?

(14:43):
Yeah, yeah, possibly. Youknow, I mean, in the grand scheme
of things, $300 million ininventory isn't going to totally
upend the whole market. Butit's not going to be good news. I
know that Dick's has been incontact with all the brands involved
and I think they understandthat, you know, it's going to be
sort of a short term pain,long term gain scenario where, yes,

(15:05):
we're going to have to burnthrough some of this stuff. But hey,
guess what? We're going to.That's going to create open to buy
for you that you didn't have.Right. Because we need to replace
it with stuff. So they'relike. So the brand's like, yeah,
well, we already sold thatstuff. Okay, yeah, sure. Blow that
stuff out. Oh, you're going towrite a PO for $50 million? Sure.
Yeah.
That sounds like a great idea.So I think there's going to be some

(15:25):
of that. But the otherinteresting question, you know, on
the earnings call was, well,is this actually going to undermine
your existing Dick's business?Right. And basically the answer was,
yeah, a.
Lot of shared brands.
A lot of shared brands.Exactly. And the answer was, well,
no, because we only have goodproduct and so the competing product
is bad product. And therefore,you know, we at Dick's are perfectly

(15:47):
assorted.
Exactly.
So. So no, it's not going to be.
How dare you insinuate. So nowlet us tell you about the new house
of sport that's replacingPublic Lands.
Yeah, right. Well, no, I thinkmaybe it's going to. Well, and also
the other thing through isthat Dick's has its own liquidation
channel too, and Going GoingGone and, and the. And their warehouse

(16:09):
channel. So I don't know howmuch of it will actually go through
that liquidation channel.Double Dipper.
They're gonna like buy fromthemselves. Like Going Going Gone
is gonna submit a PO to FootLocker for a bunch of dropped styles.
Yeah. At an incredible price.Right. An incredible deal. So, you
know, they'll get it at 80 offmoney in that circle and then, you
know, in the Going, GoingGone. So I don't even know how the
transfer pricing would work.But yes.

(16:30):
What's the, what's thelikelihood that Foot Locker becomes
that channel for Dicks that itactually they downstream it and turn
it into the Sierra?
They've got to be seeing it asa premium player.
They're going to go the otherdirection. I mean, like, of Sport
is super investment inexperience. I think we just saw that
North Face dropped that.They're doing a big flagship open.

(16:50):
Their big flagship in NewYork, you know, multi level, you
know, 20,000 square feet. Imean, you think that that's where
the Foot Locker piece goes to this.
I think the Foot Locker storefootprint or the type of store looks,
looks similar. Maybe they tryto get maybe a little bit more off
mall than they are today, butI think it stays in that sort of,
you know, smallish 2,000square foot footprint. But no, no,

(17:12):
they want to go the other way.They want to go to High Heat.
Right.
Premium. Like the. They wantto have.
That's the legacy brand. Whata name you have as far as.
Right.
I mean, they want to be wherethe sneaker head wants to shop. Right.
And what that means then isthey want to have the high Heat styles
that this, that they, theycan. So they go in and they're getting.
When they walk into that FootLocker, they want to be able to see

(17:32):
all the coolest shit that'spossible. Right. For that consumer,
not, you know, warmed overretreads of, of old styles that nobody
cares about.
I mean, it is a locker. Imean, you could put stuff that you
want to get rid of. I don'tknow, maybe Foot Dumpster might be
the way to go for yourdownstream stream play.
Maybe that's their. Maybethat's the clearance channel.
That's right.

(17:52):
It's our stepchild over here,the Foot Dumpster. We don't pay much
attention. This is Cinderella.
We're just moving productthrough it, right? Just moving.
So.
Well, let's wrap it up here sowe can get to our running event preview.
But I mean, I'm curious.
But to answer your question onthe store count thing, I think it
is tricky, right, to figurethat out. But if I had to guess based
on the comments, I would say100 to 200 million of those write

(18:17):
downs would be in storeclosing costs. Now, it's tough to
figure it out because like thewrite downs are their lease liabilities,
their PP&E and other stuff.But typically these are smaller,
older stores. So let's justsay just round figures. We're talking
about 400k per store betweenlease liabilities, all these other
stuff, that's 250 to 500stores. Okay. Out of a current base

(18:41):
of about 2,300 stores. Sowe're talking upwards of 20, 25%
of the stores.
Many stores.
Yeah.
That's a lot. I mean,obviously the thoughts and you know,
go to the people who are goingto be impacted by this.
Absolutely.
25, 20, 300 doors, especiallyif you're. If to your point, if they
are looking to elevate theexperience in the store, then they,
they probably definitely haveto. If, if that's the new model,

(19:02):
then they definitely have toomany stores. Right. So. Wow. Okay.
Well, we'll be keeping an eyeon that as, as it unfolds and see
how this all plays out. And itsounds like it's going to all unfold
pretty quickly here in thefirst half of 2026. So. Yeah, as
the air cools and the trailsbeckon. Lemz is ready to move with
you. Lemz has new shoes likethe Trailblazer Mid, the mighty Trail

(19:23):
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(19:43):
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(21:51):
Thousand line and switchbacks. Humming with the breakout
shine. Cause we're going torun, run, run at the running event.
Have fun, fun, fun Till thedemo was spent. We'll switch direction
toward outdoor perfection.
Stock bar stock.
Keeping that connection.

(22:15):
There we go.
Wow, that is beautiful.Beautiful work.
Little impromptu rock Fightradio here as we get ready for the
running event.
I feel more jazzed.
Absolutely. Yeah.
Look, Dave needs things to do, guys.
I do, apparently. And here'sme without my poodle skirt.
Right?

(22:36):
You still have a few days toget one before we get there.
Well, like we said, shortlyafter this episode is released, the
four of us will be on our wayto San Antonio, Texas to attend the
running event and switch back.A little background. For those who
may not know, the runningevent was launched in 2006 called
calls itself North America'spremier run and outdoor specialty
retail conference and tradeshow. Just rolls off the tongue.
The show started mainly as aneducation conference for running

(22:58):
retailers with a smallerassembly of brands that has now grown
into be a day of panelsfollowed by a two day trade show.
And then two years ago Treadded the Switchback section of outdoor
brands to the show. The ideabeing to give run retailers more
options outside of just purelyrunning brands. That of course led
to the launch of Switchbackspring this past June, which we covered

(23:19):
extensively here on the RockFight. So let's start broadly. Let's
go around the horn. Actually,Shantae, let's start with you. Since
you had to sit through our ARdicks conversation.
So many dicks.
So what, what are you lookingforward to checking out at the running
event?
I mean, well, this is actuallygoing to be my first time at Tres,
so I am just excited tomarinate amongst all of the other

(23:40):
running nerds. So that'll bevery exciting for me. Um, I am very
curious though how the, youknow, outdoor feels like the ugly
stepchild here. I mean it'sobviously the focus is running. You
got a little outdoor here onthe side, a little spice. I'm just
curious, is it going to.
Be a wait, ugly stepchild orthe mistress? Which one?

(24:00):
Yeah, let's go with mistress.I like that better. Yeah, I mean,
I'm just curious, is it goingto be a seamless integration? You
know, I think we were kind oftalking off mic yesterday about does
it kind of create an ombreeffect of like really hardcore running
then Maybe you get into trailrunning and then you start going
into, like, body glide and,you know, clif bars. So, yeah, I

(24:22):
think that'll be reallyinteresting. I. You know, for me,
honestly, I think outdoor is astrange category. I still don't get
why. Because we're doing allof this outside for the most part,
unless you're on a treadmill.But, yeah, I don't know. I'm curious
about that. I'm also curiousto see if it feels as congenial as
Switchback Spring did. I feellike the size of that show is, you

(24:44):
know, it's never going to bethat small again. I think we know
that as far as a standaloneevent goes, but it really felt like
you could talk to anybody. Youtalked to everybody and you made
real connections. So I'mcurious to see if that vibe exists
here.
Do you think you'll go homewith, like, $2,000 worth of gear
like you did at Switchback?
I hope so.

(25:06):
From a Gear Abbey point ofview, is there something that you're
looking for, like, in terms ofhow it applies to what we do over
on Gear Abbey?
Oh, man. You know, I'm curiousto see. I'm always interested in
innovations. I'm alwayscurious about sustainability, but
really I'm looking forpractical things for everyday runners.
Because I think, yeah, we hadKillian on the show, but he. He is
an outlier in our audience.
No, everybody does what he does.

(25:27):
I know I just got finishedrunning, you know, running 100 miles
in two hours. So, yeah, I.Yeah, I think it'll be interesting
to see what kinds of thingspop up that appeal to the everyday
runner.
So.
And I think there will be alot of it.
So I went to the running eventduring my pro bar days, which was
more than a decade ago, whenthe show was much smaller. I didn't
get to see the exhibition lastyear. And, Dave, you're the one on

(25:50):
this call who got to see themost recent exhibition of the running
event. So what are you lookingto check out this year?
I'm looking for more of thesame here. Like, I'm looking forward
to the energy. Like, it is adefinite callback to kind of the
outdoor retailer days thatour. Our folks know. You know, you've
got the mega boothopolis goingon with presenting brands. You've

(26:12):
got the frenzy of free stuffand wanting handouts of excess. I
mean, it's just really, thereis such an energy of people doing
business and being there. Thepromotional side is fully on display,
so I think that that's alwaysit's just, it's a great energy to
walk into. And to your point,Shantae, how can outdoor, you know,
borrow from that, bring fromthat? Are they going to learn and

(26:37):
add to it? So I, I just, Ithink those things and then the other
thing I'm really lookingforward to seeing is the, how the
factional rivalry withinrunning is going to play out. Right.
The road versus trail. Right.I think that we're going to be.
Gangs in New York style rumble.
Civil war is on and I'm herefor it. And I just want to see, you
know, how does it, how does itmanifest everything we've been talking

(26:59):
about? How does it manifestitself in the, you know, the ground
zero of running promotion?Like, are we going to see big wall
sized banners of trails? Youknow, are there going to be an f
asphalt kind of movement?Like, just let's see where it goes.
One thing for all. And when Iget to my part, it's a little bit
more about the show itself.But I think one thing, when you do

(27:20):
show up at these events, youcan tell who it matters to the most,
right? I mean like forexample, Patagonia, not at Switchback
Spring, they're at this event.So that kind of says to me like,
hey, they, they show up herebecause they want to talk to the
running audience, which theymaybe see as a weak spot from the
running and the endemicrunning world. As you reflect on
last year, like, is this ameaningful event to like Nike? Did
they have one of thoseboothopolises, like where it was

(27:41):
like multi. Yeah, right. Sothis, this is a meaningful event
to the running world.
Last year I'm going to callout Brooks, I'm going to call out
Nike, you're going to call outMerrill. All brought it. Now I'm
leaving others out. So this isnot my comprehensive review, but
those just made impressions onme in terms of booth size, material
structure, environment. Likeit's like. Yep, they're, they're,

(28:02):
they're, they're bringing it.
So this is where Merrillbrings in Merrell.
By Merrill, by Merrell. We'regoing to triple, quadruple this.
They're gonna, they're gonnahave. That's right. They're gonna
have four different boothfloor plan spaces when you're only
supposed to have two.
Merrell trade show brand nowtheir product as they show up at
trade shows. I like that idea.That's all they do.
That's exactly right. They'regonna have the free first five story

(28:23):
trade show booth. It'd be great.
They're gonna have to cut ahole in the roof of the convention
center. It's gonna be reallynext level, literally.
Yep. Right? Next level, literally.
Owen, what do you think? Thisis your first time going, right?
This is my first time. And forme, I'm kind of fascinated because
it is that outlier, which is avibrant national industry show. Right.

(28:44):
And really it is. I mean, youlook at ispo, you look at or whatever.
So, you know, it is thatoutlier. So I'm really interested
just to understand. Try. Well,try to understand what makes it,
um. If I were in the, youknow, the or village. What. What
is it? The leadership village.I would be sneaking into the show
just to kind of figure out,okay, what. What is it that makes

(29:05):
this thing tick? So that'sreally, really interesting. The other
interesting thing, you know,is the looking at emerging brands
on the run side and seeing howthey live here. Because, you know,
like, so. Yeah, like, does.Does tre have like an emerging brands
section? Is that a thing? Orare they sp in between? And if we

(29:27):
have the mega booths, is itthat kind of like, redheaded stepchild.
Here's my tiny 10 by 10 forthis emerging trail running brand
or this emerging running vestbrand or whatever. And you're just
sort of overshadowed, likepeople were back in the day. So kind
of interested on that front.And then the whole switchback of
it all. Having been to thestandalone switchback, how does the

(29:49):
stepchild switchback feel?Does it still feel energetic and
cool and whatever else, ordoes it feel a little bit subdued,
you know, surrounded.
By this bigger show that mightbleed into my predictions.
Yeah. Get lost in the sauce,you know.
Right.
I just, you know, just toecho. And that's the first part we
said is what I'm mostinterested in. Right. I think the.
I want to see if what theenthusiasm, just the objective acceptance

(30:12):
and enthusiasm of the show canbe replicated outside of the running
event. I mean, the trade showscene for the outdoors, I think it's.
At best, you can say itcontinues to be unsettled. Right.
There's a lot of. And I thinka lot of that is due to the value
of the proposition our outdoorshows make in a world where retailers
and brands don't necessarilyneed a big national show to do business
with each other. So I'mlooking forward to talking brands
and hopefully some dealers aswell, about what makes this event

(30:34):
a different animal. And isthere a learning there that switchback
spring or outdoor retailer orispo to your point, zero and like,
you know, can apply to theirevents now, as we look at the schedule,
I'm going to get there alittle early, so I'm going to get
a chance to spend some timewith the education days. You know,
I know we, we were at the onesat Switchback Spring. Oh, and you
sat on a panel. One of theeducation days. I want to get a sense
from you guys because that'sthe heritage of the show. Right.

(30:57):
That is where they really waslike, let's get the retailers together
and help them learn together.And then also, oh, by the way, we
brought some brands in thatyou can hang out with and now the
brand part is really grown.But that's really the main focus
of the show that people talkabout the most. When it comes to
the running event, do theymatter? I mean, do you think attendance
would drop off at this pointif they didn't happen? Again, it's
a heritage of the show, but inthe bigger trade show conversation,

(31:17):
is the education day a nice tohave on the schedule to make it look
like you're doing something,or does it really bring value to
the show? Owen, what do you think?
I think it does, especially ifyou're tying the show into a national
organization, which is thecase here, because they're tied in
with ria, the running industryassociation. So they've got a membership
meeting, et cetera. So that isa key value as that one time a year

(31:41):
where everybody gets to cometogether within that association.
So that is cool. The other keything then is, is it valuable content?
Right. Is it just sort ofendless panels of people who are
just, you know, talking ingeneralities and platitudes, or are
you actually digging into thereal issues that are driving the

(32:03):
industry, which unfortunatelyI don't see a lot of in a lot of
these industry days.
Yeah, that's. I mean, I feelvery similar. It's got to be substantive
and that's, you know, I thinkthere's a lot of chit chat, you know,
constantly about diversity andlet's get women and let's do sustainability.
And it's just a lot of lipservice. Let's do sustainability.
There's a T shirt, Dave.
Let's do sustain sustainability.

(32:24):
Yes, let's do it. But I'd loveto see education days become a little
bit more solutions oriented. Ithink of this, it's a journalism
term, but I think of the ideaof, yeah, we, we've identified the
problems, I think, at thispoint, and whether that's pain points
for retailers or for brands orfor consumers, like, let's get into
the solutions part. Of it. Nowguys, we know what the problems are.
I think I sell to what I'mgetting at. Like usually as an outside

(32:46):
observer of someone who's notat a brand or with a retailer and
I'm sitting, listening, putmyself in the shoes of who's this,
who they're trying to speak toand I'm like, what are my takeaways
from this? That I'm like, ohman, that's great. I'm going to do
that. Usually it's like, yeah,that was nice. Those people had.
They had things to say, youknow, and that's usually my.
Another graph.
Did you see the Venn diagram?
I did.
Hey, let's leave Venn diagramsout of this.

(33:10):
So on the flip side of that,we were specifically asked to stay
for the whole show. Right. Andso we could take part or at least
observe the big retailerawards dinner on the last night of
the show. And I think, youknow, having been there a long time
ago, Dave last year, neither.None of us have seen they end the
show every year with theretailer of the year awards or the
running awards show, whateverit's called. And it's a big soiree

(33:30):
and it gets people to stickaround and they hand out awards to
these people who are very muchinvested in the running industry.
So if the opening educationday is sounds like it can be necessary
from what Shantae and Owenjust said. But if there's some work
to be done, there is a can'tmiss it closer a potential to a show's
success. Because I feel likethat has always been a problem for
trade shows is not having.What's the thing at the end that

(33:52):
gets people to stick around?
Absolutely. I think three dayshows or four day shows, the last
day is always just a ghosttown. Right. Everyone is in their
booths waiting to break downbecause they haven't had somebody
stop by in the last 10 hours.But even like Switchback Spring,
a two day show, from what Iheard we had left. But from what

(34:15):
I heard the afternoon of daytwo was pretty sparsely attended.
So I think this is the morning.
Was a little thin for being okay.
But no, I think having guysare super smart having it be a two
day show, high energy bothdays and then you've got pillars
on each end. The education dayat the beginning, the awards thing

(34:35):
at the end, everybody wants tocome for the whole thing. You're
not cherry picking days hereor there. That to me just makes a
ton of sense.
Yeah. If you have like youneed to have that thing at the end
because it just having peopleleave and they will leave. If you
had a one day train show by 11o' clock, everyone would be gone.
Right. I mean it's just likethis is how it always goes. I mean
Dave and I both, you know,worked plenty of booths on the brand
side. You spend to the four ofthe four day show. You're right.

(34:55):
A day and a half usually likewhen do we get our pallets can get
the out of here. But if youknow, like, oh, tomorrow night is
the thing that we're allactually here for, like what an interesting
idea. Then, then you can. Thevalue is baked in that people are
going to stay and you takeaway that opportunity for them to
be like, oh, it got kind ofweak at the end. Yeah, it didn't
go. So last half wasn't thatgood. It's like, no, the whole thing
was good because you werewaiting around. Shantae, what do

(35:16):
you think?
Yeah, going out on a highnote, I guess. Yeah, I love the idea.
I think it's. I think back toSwitchback Spring and how we had
the opening night party. And Ialways go back to yes, people are
coming here to get businessdone. You're, you know, making orders,
all this stuff. But we're alsohere to connect. And I think it's
partially, you know, peopledeepening relationships that exist
but also forming newrelationships. And so this idea of

(35:37):
bookending the event with twobig social opportunities, you know,
education day. But there is aparty that night and then the, you
know, the awards ceremony.It's this opportunity for you to
continue connecting withpeople and to end on high note again.
I think, you know, all thesepeople that you don't know that you
meet in those two days, thenthat last day everybody's loosened

(35:59):
up a bit, we're all done, youknow, in business mode. We can just
enjoy the evening. I thinkit's a really nice way to wrap things
up and keep everybody engaged.So yeah, I'm all for it.
Dave, anything you want to addthere? Are you good?
No, I was just going to, youknow, speak for the group of people
that don't see an award showis a must attend type of draw. At
the end of the, at the end ofthe show, Dave's ready to go home.

(36:21):
That's just me. That's right.
No, I mean, and I agree withthat. But if the, the whole thing
of these trade shows that wetalk about, right is they're like,
we gotta get the retail buyersthere. A lot of times we're hearing
that from the buyers like Nah,I don't really need to be there.
But if the awards are focusedon the retailers, right. And now
it's like we're handing outretailers a year.
10% of those retailers want tobe there. The other 90 don't.

(36:41):
But what matters, Dave, is thepost show surveys. Oh my God, it
was great. They gave me an award.
See, I think there should be asecond hoka party with the retailer
awards. Now we're talking.
And that's. They should do thesurvey right after the party.
Right during, during the party actually.
10 drink minimum.

(37:02):
Minimum.
And here's your survey.
There you go.
This is the best party ever. Imean, trade show.
I love you, man.
Oh, I'm totally coming backnext year. All right, well, it wouldn't
be very on brand for us not tomake some predictions or take some
wild swings. So as we're allpacking our bags and getting ready

(37:22):
to head to San Antonio, let'sgo around the horn one more and make
predictions for the runningevent gear. Abby, let's start with
you. What do you got?
Oh my God. I was, I turned upa couple different predictions but
I'm actually going to leaninto the one. I really think, I think
that like one in every fiveconversations is going to be about
how trail running is the newroad running. And I think we're going
to see that reflected inbrands showcasing more trail oriented

(37:44):
apparel and footwear andaccessories. I think we're going
to see it probably in some ofthe booths that they're going to
lean into trail as their, youknow, motif for the, the booth.
So.
And not just the brands you'dexpect like Altra. So I'm pretty
excited to see that. As atrail running nerd myself.
Also Katherine Hepburn backfrom the dead at the running event
apparently.
Totally.
Trail running is the trailrunning, isn't it?

(38:05):
I love that.
I love it.
Dave, what do you got? Whatare your predictions?
I have so many predictions.Call and none of them will come true.
But.
Well, we all have to beaccountable. We're going to record
our recap while we're at the show.
Okay, well look, I told youbefore, shit's going down at the
soccer like I can just tellyou that, that, that is.
When did you tell me that that.

(38:25):
Is where, you know, I'mlooking side eyed at the sock wall.
I don't know what it is withwalls in Texas, but I think this,
the sock wall is where theenergy's gonna be. So I'm just saying
like the sock wall also too. Iwas kind of, I'M still thinking this
may happen that the show willannounce their official name change
to Running Daze. But it willbe Daze to avoid confusion with the

(38:51):
outside festival, which Ithink is smart. Right.
And you know, new change inthe outside festival.
That's right.
News. I hadn't heard that.
It's a little hip. Outsideannounced that they are changing
the name of the outsidefestival to Outside days.
Without the Z seven days.
No, that's with D A Y S.They're a little more conservative

(39:12):
in their nomenclature. I thinkhere with days we can really kind
of bring in a little grooviersense. I mean, this is all about
trail running these days.
Yeah. I mean you get the postrun high. I know all about that.
Right. See, there you go.There you go.
But the pre run high.
The pre run high.
There are ways to run high.
Yeah, right. It really, itgoes everywhere mostly and.
Legal in a lot of places.

(39:32):
But, but, but the I I one morehere is this. I do think that the
switchback booth envy is realand someone is going to bring it.
Someone is going to.
Oh, someone on the switchback side.
Someone on the switchback isgoing to say at a. And I think that
like we said last time, theoutdoors looked a little meager next
to the running nerds. So Ithink that this year somebody's going

(39:55):
to step up and make a mentionworthy booth. So fingers crossed.
All right, Owen, you want togo or you want me to go?
So my prediction is that basedupon the success of the TRE awards
presentation, how it is thisbookend thing combined with their
announcement of this deeperrelationship with the oia, we are
going to see diversified theshift. The show organizer announce

(40:17):
a major awards push forSwitchback 2026 as the Outdoor Industry
Awards. On that second day,they're going to follow the same
exact model. So that's myprediction. Now will they announce
it at the show? I don't know.I may grill Kent and Christina during
the live portion that we're at.
Oh, I think, I think we have a responsibility.

(40:37):
I think if they come backwith, well, we're not ready to announce
anything right now. Now I'mgoing to take that as a yes and that
my prediction was correct.
I'll support that.
Yes.
Well done.
No, it's a moral imperativethat you ask the question. Yeah.
All right, Colin, what's your prediction?
Okay, I have two. First, I'mpredicting outdoor run posers.

(40:59):
Okay.
I think there's going to be atleast three outdoor brands that don't
really speak to the runningcategory who show up with either
ill fated running, marketingor products.
That sounds like.
So speaking about outdoor runposer. Sorry, just interject here.
You've talked a lot, Colin,about the people that show up to
outdoor shows looking superoutdoorsy. They've got to wear their

(41:20):
flannels and their hikingboots. Right. Do people show up to
tre in like short, shortrunning shorts and like little running.
Running singlets? Is that a thing?
Dave, you were there lastyear. Did you see any of that?
Did you wear it?
I so want that to be true. Ijust. I so want that to be true.
You can make it true, Dave.
I can tell you can.
Where they get some knee high.

(41:41):
Nobody wants that. Nobodywants that at all.
There are three people on thiscall who want that date.
That's three people, and Ithink all the listeners.
Oh, my gosh, that's amazing.
I would take back every badthing I've said about the outdoor
community if. If that ended upbeing true. Like, okay, plaid shirts
and chocos. Not too badcompared to what we're seeing here.
That's so awesome.
All right, so.
So no, but my outdoor poserthing, I think this is like the,

(42:04):
the running equivalentequivalent of Steve Buscemi dressed
as a skate punk saying, how doyou do, fellow kids? You know, of
like, you know, the outdoorpeople rolling into the running event,
trying to be a running brand.So I'm going to take it one step
further. I'm going to call,I'm going to make here my three predictions
of who I think is the mostlikely to do this.
Okay?
Okay. And if I'm wrong, I willeat crow on our recap. But I think

(42:25):
my number one choice is Pranabecause they are kind of identity
list right now. They're verygappish and they're exhibiting at
Switchback. So I could seethem rolling in like, hey, we're
a running brand now. Look atour running stuff. You know, I could
see that happening. Numbertwo, see to summit, because I don't
really think of them. I seethey have a lot of stuff that I could
see that runners using, but Ican't. I could see them showing up,

(42:45):
trying to brand themselves asa running brand.
I don't think so.
Okay.
I'm just saying it's, youknow. And then number three is Berghaus,
who's trying desperatelyanything to get accepted. You know,
sorry to Shane, who was very.Who was, as I said, lovely things
about the podcast. We'll findout. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe apologizing.
I think honestly, they wanttraction in the US market.

(43:05):
And I think they can actuallydo it if they lean into not just
snow, which I think they do.Is. Yeah, running makes a lot of
sense to me. Trail running.Because they do. I. I tried on one
of their little packs. Iforget the name of it. They got all
these great, like, wind shirtsand things. That one might be the
one most likely for me.
Yeah. I would say the trail.Isn't that as much of a stretch for
Berghaus? So it's.

(43:26):
Right now their big marketingstory is Oasis, so they're gonna
have to pivot away from thatat some point. Right. Cause, you
know, the.
The.
The Oasis reunion story isgetting old.
You didn't.
You didn't know that LiamGallagher is an ultra runner now.
I'm sure he says that he is.
Right.
So I.
But.
So. And Patagonia isn't onyour list. I would think Patagonia
would be top of the list for that.
Patagonia's had a trailrunning line for a while.

(43:46):
They've been in the category,so they get a pass.
Shorts are the only ones thatfit me.
Oh.
So the one that I did want tosay is code epoxy, but I think I'm
saving my judgment for theirbooth, which I'm. Like we said, we're
sure they were going to be themost. They're going to win Dave's
most improved award.
Do you think they're justgoing to put, like, a little sign
with all of our faces on itand just as a bid to win our affection?

(44:07):
If they're smart.
Yeah, that's right. You guysstill have a few more days.
Okay.
Rush it to the Kinkos.
My. My big prediction, whichisn't relevant to the show, so I
didn't want to make it. Myonly prediction is that this will
be the last switchback at therunning event. I think it has now
become confusing. Right nowyou have switchback spring. Also,
if we're in out for one ofthese outdoor brands, who wants to

(44:28):
get in the running? Why can'tI just go exhibit at the running
event? Why do I need to bepart of switchback? I think it was
a good idea to sort of draw inthe outdoor element. I don't think
you need it anymore. So Ithink switchback becomes its own
thing. And the running backgoes back to being just the running
event. And if you're outdoorand you want to exhibit at the running
event, then.
Run an exhibit at the run. Isthere going to be a Switchback winter
then? As part of the corollaryto that.
Prediction, that's a good question.

(44:49):
And does there need to be aneven better question?
Right, That's a betterquestion. Well, all right. Lastly,
we didn't want to leave youguys short change today. So to end
the show, we're sharing ourfinal interview from last month's
Goa Connect in Kansas City.Owen, Dave and I had the chance to
sit down with Nathan Dopp,who's the CEO of America for Fjallraven
and VP for Phoenix Outdoor.During our conversation, we got to

(45:11):
talk with Nathan about thestate of business as 2025 wraps up
how they're planning for thefuture given the level of uncertainty
the outdoor industry isfacing, as well as how they've evolved
to create a more flexiblesupply chain. Nathan's a super thoughtful
leader and a great guy and wewere fortunate to get a few minutes
of his time. Plus, he broughtus all Fjallraven products emblazoned
with the Rockvite logo. So heearned himself a pass from at least

(45:33):
two or three future rockslingings. And Shantae's gonna get
hers at the running event.
Excited walk around like athat's gonna we're going back to
the Sharks vs Jets here. Thisis be great.
Yes, we are.
Any, any thoughts on Nathanbefore we roll the interview winner?
Dave No, I think it was, itwas a, it was a great conversation,
you know, very thoughtful, Ithink. And, and you know, in, in

(45:55):
a lot of these interviews youtend to get very sort of guarded
question or answers to yourquestions. And I felt like it was
just a pretty straightforward conversation.
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(47:28):
Well, we're here with the RockFight's favorite sponsor because
he just hooked us up with someincredible swag. We're with Nathan
Dobb, who's the CEO ofAmerica's for Fjallraven. Vp Phoenix
Outdoor America Group ag.
No, the. The Global Group.
Global Group.
Sorry, you've quit the title.
It's a long sentence.
Yeah.
Yes.
Let's just start simply here.2025. It's November. We're at Goa

(47:48):
Connect. It's coming to aclose. Interesting year.
Very.
Say the least.
They all are anymore.
How you doing? Are you doingall right?
I'm doing well.
Yeah.
You know, I just came out of areally nice luncheon the GOA put
on and I would tend to concurwith them that I feel like we've
gotten to a stable place in,in the industry, especially with
the specialty accounts andthat, you know, maybe the future's

(48:09):
bright. You know, depending onwhat happens outside.
Our 26 looking.
You know, I think it. Well,all, all seasons are challenging
anymore. I mean, there'salways something that we don't expect.
Expect.
Yeah.
And certainly, what do I sayabout that? The, you know, the tariff
situation, the uncertainty andwhat's going on with that? I would

(48:29):
prefer that wasn't the case,but I feel pretty confident. All,
I think all the brands arefeeling pretty confident right now
coming out of.
Yeah. What, what, what is itthat makes you feel confident? Because
that was actually the firstthing we're going to ask, right.
Is like we just had the dealthe Trump administration supposedly
made with China. You know,it's always fingers crossed this
is going to stick, all thatkind of thing. You guys actually
just had, you know, some goodreporting coming out for, for Phoenix
Group. What is it that givesyou the confidence?

(48:51):
I think I feel confident. Ithink we feel confident because of
our organization. I think thefact that we are not as driven or
owned by, you know, a PE or,you know, not driven by that situation,
which I understand the needfor that in the, in the world and
in the industry. But for us,it's nice to be able to make decisions
based on what we think is bestfor long term. We're not in a short
term situation and, and we'recertainly not beholden to any investors

(49:14):
who can help us drive ourdecisions. So we get to make our
decisions the way we want toand acquisitions and tariffs and
all those things. We get tomake really, I think, thoughtful
decisions around what we'regoing to do and what we're going
to do next.
How have you handled priceincreases as it relates to tariffs.
We've talked with a number ofbrands. Some have absorbed it themselves,
some are passing it on. Somehave done nothing so far. But those,

(49:38):
those price increases aregoing to hit early next year. Where
are you in all of that?
All of the above, I'd say.First of all, we started divesting
from China sourcing six orseven years ago, and that was a myriad
of factors. But so when thisall started happening, I think we

(49:58):
were fortunate that we didn'thave as much being produced in China.
Fall we absorbed in at all.Certainly we had some pretty unexpected
blows around air freight andthings that we hate to do. So.
Right.
But we just, we made the, Ithink, the right decision to absorb
all that for fall spring. Weare looking at some price increases.
We're going to absorb some ofit. We're going to increase prices

(50:19):
a little bit. I think thebiggest challenge I believe we face
is just the uncertainty aroundthe whole thing.
Right.
I have a warehouse right nowthat is putting new prices on about
580,000 units, all carryoverproduct that, you know, we need to
fix that price and get it towhere it needs to go. And God forbid

(50:39):
somebody wakes up on the otherside of the bed and decides tariffs
are a thing of the past and wehave to go back now and fix it again.
So the uncertainty is thebiggest thing keeping me up right
now.
Okay. So your chairman, MartinNorden, love his investor letters.
Very outspoken guy. He must befun to work for.
He's a fun guy. Yeah.
Yeah.
And so he's talked about andbeen one of the few that really talked

(51:04):
about this fact that retailersare trying to push more of the risks
onto the brands. Right. Thefact that, you know, the reorder
percentages are going down,they want to chase a little bit more
in season, which totally getit from the retailer's perspective.
But it does put more risk onyou. And he's saying that you're
actually working to make yoursupply chain more agile to be able

(51:24):
to address that changing riskreality. Can you talk a little bit
about that?
Yeah. I think first of all, weare fortunate in that for Fjallraven
and for Hanvog and in someways and Royal, it's very much carryover
business to begin with. So aBlack Vita Pant, if we produce it
this year and it doesn't sellthis year, we. We feel very comfortable

(51:45):
with it carrying over into thenext year. Of course, we don't expect
to price change all thetickets, you know, along the way.
But, you know, you know, otherthan That I feel like the nature
of our business is veryconsistent enough that we can feel
comfortable in what we'rebuying, how much inventory we're
carrying. So I think thatgives us a leg up. We're not trying

(52:08):
to reinvent ourselves every year.
Okay. The other piece thathe's talked about is the fact that
he really has called out ECommerce and basically said, you
know what, what? E Commerce isbasically a discount play. When it's
discounted, it gets sales.When it isn't, it doesn't. And it
feels like you're taking moreof a hey, let's lean into brick and

(52:29):
mortar approach. Is that afair statement?
I think. Well, I've alwaysthought specialty and specialty brick
and mortar is the cornerstoneand the most important piece of our
business. We all need that tosurvive and thrive. So of course
that's where we have a lot offocus. I know from past experiences
and current experiences themajors are amazing and they can write

(52:50):
such a wonderful PO for youand you know, change, change your
business's life and all that.But I also know that the, the winds
of change come along for thoseguys and, and they decide to go in
different directions and sothat can be a major blow the other
way. Department stores run ona completely different cycle than
the, the time cycle that werun on. They have different business
models, so that's superchallenging. So the only thing we

(53:11):
can really count on is thatspecialty business. Then. I do think
we have some really nice, youknow, online retailers who I think
are doing a tremendous job.But you have to choose really carefully
and you have to have reallygreat, strong, mutually respectful
relationships so that they'renot going to be discounting you all
the time and they're going torun the business the way we need
to be strong long term. I knowfor Martin and for the Europeans,

(53:35):
they have a tremendous problemover there because they can't control
any price. They don't have map.
Right.
They have no real teeth to it.So it's very challenging for them
when somebody decides to justflood the market and they flood it
cross country. So they'll gointo other, other markets, they'll
stay full price in their ownmarket, but they'll put a bunch of
product into somebody else'smarket. So it's a particular challenge
for the team over there. So Ithink we're fortunate over here.

(53:58):
Wow.
Okay. So we actually have itbetter over here than. It's interesting.
Phoenix is a portfolio ofbrands and in the industry we've
seen a number of these multibrand companies, whether It's VF
Corp. Divesting of brands. Wejust had some write downs at Columbia

(54:19):
for a couple of theirportfolio brands. But you guys are
actually still buying. Youjust bought Devold, if I'm pronouncing
that correctly. Talk to meabout that. Is there still an appetite
to continue to acquire brands?
I think we're alwaysinterested and we're always looking,
but it has to be a veryparticular situation for it to be

(54:42):
the right play for us. AndDevold is the perfect brand for us
to add to the family. They'revery strong and something that we
are good at but not great at.With Fjallraven, they have their
own sourcing, they have sheepto shop process, where they have
their own sheep farm and canreally raise our expertise in that

(55:03):
sector. And we've alwayswanted to have a base layer collection
to add to the line and we'vedabbled in that. But here's some
people who have over 170 yearsof experience keeping people warm
with wool. That's a perfectpartnership for us. So we're not
aggressively looking for newpartners, but when it's something
that's that perfect of a fit,it's a heritage brand, it's from
Scandinavia. Beautiful team,beautiful product. It's just a really

(55:26):
good fit for us.
So in that scenario then, willthe Fjallraven US team basically
help to launch that here?Because they were at the marketplace,
we saw them there yesterday.So they'll just basically piggyback
onto this existing infrastructure?
Yes and no. So there was adistributor taken in Canada who had

(55:46):
started the business up there.They did a nice job getting it launched.
So we will use ourinfrastructure and our back end and
all of our storage strengthsto help them launch in North America.
And we're also looking at itfor Latin America, which they're
down there right now having ameeting about that. So our goal is
to, with, as with everything,be thoughtful, be strategic about

(56:10):
it. We're not going to raceinto the market. We're not going
to try to buy business withdiscounting or any of the strategies
that people can employ. We'regoing to launch kind of thoughtfully
and I think fall 26 is whenwe'll be fully, fully up and running.
We want to make sure thatwe're set. The infrastructure strat,
we're ready to go when, whenwe really get going. So. But it's
going to be a lot of fun.
So we were just chatting withsomebody else who remained unnamed

(56:33):
and I, you know, asked whattheir thoughts were for 2026 trade
shows. And he's, and he, hiscomment was, oh, it's a show. And
you know, I think that's a, asmuch as, you know, we talk about
it a lot and it's not anunfair assessment. You know, as you
look ahead to 2026, what's theplan for the, for the brands you
work with? Are you, is thereanything that's interesting about
the trade shows that are outthere now? As the, as the scene sort

(56:54):
of evolves, is anything sortof pulling ahead in terms of like
adding more value to thebrands you work with?
Well, I, I have a probablyunhealthy love of trade shows. I,
I, I think they're like, it'sone of my favorite things.
We kind of all do well.
Just like the, the energy andthe passion and the, the getting
together with folks and, andyou know, having that glass of wine
and find out what's going onin the industry is I miss the big

(57:18):
old, you know, the big olddays. I miss spending six months
coming up with a new boothidea and building a big showcase
to the brand and all that.That said, I think those days are
pretty much in our past, atleast in the near term. I think shows
like this GOA with, they'reincredibly efficient, incredibly
well run, everybody comes towork and get things done. I think
that's amazing. I did go downto, to switch back and I think they're

(57:42):
doing a really nice, you know,job down there. We're certainly going
to take a look at that. AndI'm always interested in what OR
is doing. I mean that, that isthe, that's the place where we all
grew up. And so I, I certainlyam pulling for them to figure, figure
out what they want to do next.That said, I think I was probably
the last major brand to pullout of or and I probably will not
go back in until I see aserious momentum shift towards that

(58:06):
show is reestablishing it. Ialso don't really want to spend a
million dollars a year ontrade show booths. So I think we've
all learned to reallocate that money.
I think we all sort of tookit's 2025. So we fast went back in
time 10 years and looked atour marketing budgets and the line
item expenses for trade shows.We'd all gag a little. Probably as
fun as it was.
Yeah, that line item needs togo to podcast advertising 100%.

(58:30):
Yes, but you just said, youknow, you really focus on brick and
mortar when you're talking toretailers. Like, what are you hearing
from the field. What are theysaying about this? I mean they do,
they share sort of our branddriven enthusiasm for the get together
or is it more of a take it orleave it and sometimes they show
up and other times, you know,the regional shows are all I need.
Is there, is there even a consensus?
I think they feel like theyget what they. Because they've all

(58:52):
triaged and they've all becomeso much more conservative and they're
trying to be more safe withtheir own investment and time, money.
A lot of people have smallerteams out there, especially in the
specialty shops. So I thinkit's a. They may want to go, but
I just, I think they have tojustify it and it's hard for them
to get on a plane and leavetheir shops and I completely respect
that. So it's on us to makesure that they have a really efficient

(59:14):
trip and that it works forthem based on that.
You know, what is it that youguys can do to help it make it easier
for the retailer to make those decisions?
Well, I think, I think we haveto show up where they are. I mean
we have to meet them, meetthem on their own grounds. So if
G OA is happening, we're goingto be here, regional shows, we're
going to support them everyway we can. Our amazing agencies
and teams out there, the fieldreps, I try to give them every tool

(59:35):
they can possibly have becausethey're the eyes and ears out there
and they're the ones who haveto be motivated and get out there
and show the shops and supportthem in every way they can. So it's
just a matter of meeting thesepeople where they need to be, be
met and giving them what they need.
Folks may not know the wholePhoenix world and everything that
Phoenix is into and the factthat actually Phoenix is a big retailer

(01:00:00):
in the European outdoormarket. Would Phoenix ever consider
getting into retail in the US market?
I would say no. I think I'd belying if we haven't looked at it
a couple times. I think forall the reasons, you know, I think

(01:00:22):
this market I have no interestin competing head to head with especially
retailer if I, if I can helpit. So then who am I competing with?
Shields and REI and you know,Dick sporting guys like they're so
good at what they do. So Ibelieve we're very good at what we
do in Europe and I think, Ithink we have other things, we have
a lot of other things to dobefore we start getting into that

(01:00:42):
business and I don't know thatI need to Sit on both sides of the
table with all the otherbrands and ask them for discounts
and you know, can I, can Ibring that into my shop?
So you got enough on your plate?
I've got enough on my plate.And I think, I think we've got, we've
got a lot of growth to getbefore we get to that spot.
Okay, gotcha.
Producer Dave jumping in here,I couldn't keep quiet. I know we're

(01:01:04):
talking a lot about thestructure and the business here,
but let's talk about the brandjust in it. You guys have been on
a run that's a long time. Likein just steadily building, building.
And I'm going back to, youknow, look, there are these little
packs that catch and then allof a sudden now I see packs everywhere
and where usually the trendgoes up and it goes down and those

(01:01:27):
packs would give way tokipling bags and it would be over.
Yep.
What do you think? What waswhat, what helped the brand pull
out of that and continue thegrowth and expansion in the US market?
Oh boy, I could give so manyanswers. I'd like to take all the
credit. Okay, we can do thatbased on.

(01:01:48):
The merch that you brought us in.
That it's all in the, in thetheme. But of course a lot of it
is luck and a lot of it is theharder you work, the luckier get
kind of mentality. But I thinkjust as Konkin was slowing down,
I mean Konkin was anincredible launch mechanism. I mean
for that to take off the wayit did and to expose as many people
as it did to the brand istremendously fortunate. And we tried

(01:02:10):
very hard to manage thatcleanly and for as long as possible.
But just as that was slowingdown, the rest of the brand really
caught on and people startedseeing the pants.
And they started seeing, okay,was it the product mix? I mean you
guys don't do a ton ofadvertising or kind of external communication
piece, but all of a sudden nowevery hip quarter of a city has a
Fjallraven shop. And like yousaid, this product mix go. I just

(01:02:34):
interesting in terms of thestrategy behind that, I think the
product.
You know, you're right, wedon't. We're not a marketing driven
company. We're a productdriven company. A lot of the products
in our line that are populartoday are 30 and 40 year old styles.
So I think there's somethingto be said for just that. That resonance
that people found in thequality and the craftsmanship and
the effort that went intothose products. And then keeping

(01:02:56):
that kind of. And we have toreinvent ourselves a.
Little bit as well.
Because even, even in that theheritage of the brand was not to
update a successful line or toadd colors, just to add colors. Like
that's not really the Swedishway or the way that Fjallraven operated.
So we know we need to keepthings fresh in the market. So we're
starting to learn that andwe're looking for ways to address

(01:03:18):
different sectors of themarket. We know that we need probably
something approachable for theyounger consumer. We're very expensive
and frank premium.
Well, it's. From an Americanperspective, it does seem like that
most people come became awareof a Fjallraven as more of a mainstream
product. Yep. Yet it's reallythis core specialty kind of brand.
And so that's usually thosetwo aren't. Usually that's not two

(01:03:41):
way street.
Yeah, right.
Usually it's a one way street.
It's, it's special in thatway. And I, if, if, if we're guilty
of anything, we probably tryto do too much all the time. Right
now we're, we're trying veryhard to create really, really beautiful
PFAS free Gore jackets for thehigh end winter consumer and rain

(01:04:01):
use. But at the same timewe're looking for ways to expand
into that a little moreapproachable. Price still has to
be incredibly value present,has to be very durable, sustainable.
But try to find ways to getinto that kind of more lifestyle
look. Yeah, it's got to be cool.
So how's that, that awesomebackpack you guys put out with, you

(01:04:22):
know, with the wooden staysand stuff? Is that doing well?
It's, it's, you know, it isreally resonating. I knew it was
cool because my brother in lawwho's a geology professor saw that
pack and just grabbed it andgravitated to it and he's like, this
is what I want for Christmas.This is what I'm going to take in
the field when I go to Alaska.
That was Owen and I at theOutdoor Market alliance, the media
event. And we're like just. Ikept picking it up and I'm like,

(01:04:43):
I kind of just want to wearthis thing around. It's just a great
product. So is it, is it res.Is it fine?
You know, when something'sgreat because everyone in the office
wants one, everybody startswearing it or has one of those. I
just love that, I love thatwhole thing about the product team
when they come up with awindow like that.
Well, and that's what I'vealways loved about Fjallraven from

(01:05:04):
the very beginning with Mizshow, when we brought you guys in
was just that I am. I am aPhil Raven. So off mic here, I was
called a fanboy. But. But Iam, because it's the brand, actually,
that I usually use as myexample of when you cover up the
logo, can you still say who itis? And FJo Raven is the example,

(01:05:27):
but that pack is the perfectembodiment of that, which is to say
only FJo Raven would have donethis pack, as opposed to this could
have been any brand. Sototally love that. And I think it's
just a great example of abrand that knows who it is and where
it comes from and that it justshows in the product.
And I love that you've saidthat because you're not the only
one who's. Who said that inthe past. And I think that's where

(01:05:49):
we. When we really are in ourgroove. It's that kind of product
that is recognizable and hasthe feel and the look and the. And
the durability that we talkabout and the sustainability that
we talk about. And that, youknow, in some ways limits you, because
you can't just make anythingand you can't chase markets.
But I can tell because.Because I can tell that there are

(01:06:10):
those conversations thathappen where it's like, we should
have an xyz. And thensomebody, I think, internally says,
well, how do we make aFjallraven one of those? And if we
can't make a real, then weshouldn't do it.
Because then it's just like ithappens to us. It just happened a
few years ago. We decided wereally needed a less expensive technical
pant. And so we, the team,created this pant. And then when

(01:06:34):
we all saw. Saw it, we startedadding things back in. I was like,
well, it's got to have thisand it has to have this, and. But
that fabric's not very good.And by the time they added all the
stuff back in, it was rightback to where it started.
So.
And. And you have to be okaywith that. You have to say, for us
to make things the way wewant, we've gotta. It's gonna have
to be at a certain level, andit's gonna have to cost a certain
amount of money. So.
Well, this is where thecontrarian in me would want to. On

(01:06:56):
something you guys are doing,because we're just like, you're lavishing
praise, but you brought asweet, sweet swag. So wrap it up.
But thank you so much fortaking a few minutes.
My pleasure.
It's been great to chat withyou. Thanks for the support. As everyone
knows, F Raven sponsors thepodcast, but that's okay. That's
not why Nathan's here. He'shere because he wants to talk about
what's going on in theindustry. So thanks for, thanks for
your time.
And I have to say, we allappreciate you guys doing what you
do because it's. It's nice tohave a voice that's keeping an eye

(01:07:16):
on the industry and sharingback what's happening out there because
we do feel disconnected. Soyou guys help. You're helping us
all stay connected. So Iappreciate that.
All right, well, that's theshow. We want your emails. Actually,
I have to play both sideshere. We want your Gearab emails
and we want your Rock Fightemails. My Rock Fight and deergearabby@gmail.com.
rock Fight's a production atRock Fight LLC today with episode

(01:07:39):
produced by producer Dave, artdirection provided by Sarah Gensert.
Big thanks to gear Abbeyherself, Shantae Salibar for dropping
in with us and for going toTexas with us. We're going to hear
more from her a bunch over thenext week. And also for Owen Comerford,
I'm Colin True. Thank you forlistening and like always here to
take us out and send us toTexas, it's Krista Makes with the
Rock Fight Fight song. We'llsee you next time. Rock fight.

(01:08:09):
Welcome to the Rock fightWhere we speak our truth slay sacred
cows and sometimes agree todisagree. We talk about human powered
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like pop culture, music, thelatest movie reviews, ideas that

(01:08:30):
aim for the head. This iswhere we speak our truth. This is
where we speak our truth. Rockfight. Rock fight. Rock fight welcome
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Rock fight. Rock fight. Rockflight, ride, flight Rock fight Welcome

(01:08:52):
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