Can Run Outpace Outdoor? Plus: Are U.S. Outdoor Brands at Risk Abroad?

It's Monday on The Rock Fight! Which means that Colin is joined by outdoor industry insider Eoin Comerford and brand & creative expert Producer Dave to run through the following topics that have emerged over the past week (or so):

• Comeback brand feedback & Eoin's surf brand game: We discuss the listener feedback to last weeks episode where we nominated the candidates for 2026 comeback brand of the year and Eoin quizzes Colin & Producer Dave about their knowledge of current up and coming surf brands. (04:05)
• Topo has themselves a quarter and continues the trend of running brands showing big growth which begs the question, can run overtake outdoor like outdoor once overtook surf and ski? (14:56)
• Adidas releases a new shoe designed just for running on the treadmill. No really, they did that. (21:55)
• The Rock Fight Lightning Round! This weeks fast acting topics: Glamping over camping, are outdoor retailers missing the boat on the grow wearable tech category, and Combat Flip Flops! (26:26)
• Support those who support The Rock Fight! This weeks partners: Ibex, Fjallraven, Royal Robbins, Lems Shoes, Conatus Counsel. (30:37)
• Pre-holiday blues? Three surveys dropped this past week painting a relative gloomy picture of the upcoming holiday shopping season. (35:32)
• Are US outdoor brands at risk overseas? A new article from The Guardian details challenges being faced by US fashion brands, are outdoor brands facing the same challenges? (39:20)

For The Parting Shot Producer Dave offers an update on the roll out of Columbia's campaign and rebrand. (44:42)

Thanks for listening! The Rock Fight is a production of Rock Fight, LLC.

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Breaking news from the IBEXOutdoor News Desk. This just in.
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(00:21):
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(00:41):
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for specialty retail shops.And hey, you want to see more today?
Head to ibex.com rock fight.

(01:02):
Rock fight. Rock Fight. RockFight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight.
Welcome to the Rock Fightwhere we speak our truth, slay sacred
cows and sometimes agree todisagree. This is an outdoor podcast
that aims for the head. I'mColin True and joining me today they
have on their Combat Flipflops and they're ready to roll.

(01:23):
It's the Monday Boys. OwenComerford and producer Dave right?
We're yes indeed.
Combat Flip Flops.
We'll get into the Combat FlipFlops in a little bit here, but I'm
sure you guys are ready foranything apparently.
Yes.
Well today we're going to talkabout more than Combat Flip flops,
but before we do that we havesome programming reminders for you

(01:44):
because we never want you tomiss an episode of the Rock Fight.
So please click Follow on thepodcast app you are using right now
if you're new to the show.Maybe you already did that, but we
would like it if you did. Soplease follow the show tomorrow.
Doug Schnitzman won't beopening the container like he always
does on Tuesday because thisweek Open Container will be out on
Wednesday. We had a one daydelay in production so you're going

(02:05):
to see Open Container onWednesday so you know it'll all be
okay. And then on Thursdayyou'll get an all new episode of
Gear Abby with host ShantaeSalibare who answers all of your
Burning Outdoor questions. Sobe sure to also follow Open Container
and Gear Abbey on theirrespective podcast feeds and producer
Dave how can our listeners geteven more out of the Rock Fight than

(02:26):
maybe they're currentlygetting at this exact moment in time.
Well, there's two ways, Colin.I mean, first, you want to subscribe
to that newsletter, right, andhead to Rockfight Co sign up for
that newsletter. Be amazed, bebewildered, be entertained, be informed.
But before we move on, Colin,how does one get in touch with Gear
Abbey?
Oh, excellent question. Yousend your emails to DearGearAbbyMail.com

(02:50):
and actually Owen's going totell you how to reach out to the
Rock Fight. I'm a littleconcerned because I think we're already
getting more emails for GearAbby and the Rock Fight cats and
we have like four times thedownloads or whatever. More than
that, actually. So, yeah, Ithink it's the Shantae effect, maybe.
Yep, yep.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Imean, yeah, I'm not bitter at all

(03:12):
that she's beaten us now twicein the popular vote, but anywho,
uh, yeah, so she's gonna beatus in the email vote now too. Right?
So if you do wanna beat GearAbbey and you wanna reach out to
the Rock Fight. Oh, and whatshould our listeners do?
They should [e-mail] they can also
reach us on LinkedIn. Justsearch up Rock Fight or on Instagram,

(03:34):
where we are rockfightco, allone word and follow along to all
of the excitement there. Sendus a dm, what have you.
I just like to think that ourmaybe fewer emails is just because
everyone agrees with us in theoutdoor industry. They hear our podcast
like, no notes, 10 out of 10.You guys are good.
We hear it when they don't, sothat's for sure.
That's true.
Fair. That is fair. Yes.

(03:56):
Although Todd Frank slides inthere quite a bit. You probably hear
from Todd Frank the most. Thisis my obligatory Todd Frank mention
on the podcast. We gotta talkabout him every week, I feel like.
Good call.
Okay, so kicking us off today,last Monday here on the Rock Fight,
Dave, Owen and I made somepredictions about who will be the
comeback brand of the year in2026. And if you go back and listen
to that episode, or you shouldgo back and listen to it if you haven't,

(04:16):
but if you did miss it, thebrands we had in contention for that
honor were Black Diamond,Chaco, Columbia Hydro Flask, Marmot,
Nike, acg, Prana, Solo Stove,the North Face, Under Armour and
Vans. Owen, of course postedabout this on his very popular LinkedIn
page, which you should go andfollow the consigliere to the Rock
Fight, owen Comerford onLinkedIn. Go follow him over there.

(04:38):
And of course, on that postpeople started weighing with their
own choices.
So.
Oh, and here's who your yourfollowers voted for. I, I kind of
just did a little tally. Sofrom your comments, Nike ACG got
three votes as did Vans. Thosewere the top vote getters. Very funny.
From the, you know the, the,the pro core crowd on LinkedIn. Kind

(04:58):
of like those are the top, thetop vote getters. Columbia with two,
Marmot with two, Prana withone. The North Face and Hydro Flask
also with Run with one. We didhave some write ins for Goal Zero,
Ocean Pacific, Woolrich, ber,Neurona and Rab. So that was pretty
interesting. But yeah, NikeACG and Vans, those were the top

(05:19):
vote getters from your readers.
I was surprised, honestly.Nike acg, sure. Actually there was
some love for Nike really froma bunch of different folks. But the
Vans one surprised me. Thatwas the one that was like what this?

(05:42):
Not only because a to yourpoint, like this is the court outdoor
crowd supposedly, but also Ijust, I just don't see it with Vans.
Yeah. But hey, what do I know?Interesting though are the folks
that got zero votes. Blackdiamond, who we had said was like
the shoe in. Right.
This is bad news for you guys.Sorry, Black Diamond.

(06:03):
Sorry guys. Choco. Okay, not ashocker. Perhaps Solo Stove, which
is my pick and Under Armour,probably not a shocker.
Maybe the lack. Black diamondwas just. There was a general agreement
with our stance on that islike they're the presumed favorite
and just nobody kind ofweighed in to throw their weight
there.
Maybe.
Talk about, talk about turningthe numbers there. Colin, you got

(06:25):
no votes, but I know that'sjust a ringing endorsement like.
That's exactly right. That's impressive.
I wouldn't say this was themost scientific survey in the world.
I would remove the wordscientific from it altogether, frankly.
Next week when we're coveringthe Neil Fisk press release about
a change in strategy based offof the.

(06:47):
That's right.
I'm sure that's all that Neilhas to do with his time is to surf
the comments on my post.That's right.
Hey, it's called executive research.
That's right.
Okay, enough on that. We'vetalked too much about that. Let's
move on here. But Owen, Ithink it sounds like you have a little
game that you've prepared forus. They do.
Yeah. So I was reading CISOand some of the excellent reporting

(07:11):
there and of course you know,I've got the executive pass to see
the really cool. Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
You and like two other people or.
Is it at least three?
So anyway, Colin, don't bebitter just because they don't let
you in.
I want my free executive pass. Okay.
No, actually I got the passbecause I was a contributor.

(07:31):
Oh, that's right.
I've written articles forthose guys. So anyway, I'm not gonna.
I don't pay real. One of theexcellent articles that is available
on the Executive House wasabout talking to different surf shops
and what brands are kind ofpopping and doing well. So the funny

(07:52):
thing for me, though, as Iwent through all these brands were
the number of them that Iwasn't that familiar with. Okay.
Okay.
I've pulled together 10 brandshere that came up in this and maybe
one or two other articles andI want to see if you guys are familiar
with these brands. All right,so it's 10.
And surf shops are still athing. Should we clarify that for

(08:12):
that still happens out there?
That does still happen.
Okay.
Just double checking that sellstuff. Yeah.
So not owned by Rip Curl.
Not owned by Rip Curl. Theseare mainly independent surf shops.
So I'm going to give you thebrand. You've got to tell me if you're
familiar with them or not.
Got it.
Okay. And, and, and I will ifyou say. I, I know who it is. You're

(08:34):
gonna have to actually tell mea little bit about the brand to prove
that you're not just bullshitting.
Damn it.
Okay.
I was totally gonna say I knewwho all these brands were.
Right.
Okay. And so we, we will keepa score here as to who knows which.
Okay, here we go. So we'regonna start with Z Supply.
How do you spell that? Z?
The letter Z or Z if you're,if you're. Yeah, if you're English

(08:55):
or Canadian. Z, like thespelling bee.
Can you use Z supply in a sentence?
This could take forever. Doyou know who it is?
No, I have no idea, Dave.
I don't. They're not newnecessarily, are they?
Not necessarily, no. Okay.
I just. I would consider themjust one of the true brands.

(09:17):
You don't know who they are?
I've seen their logo. I knowI've seen their logo.
Who are they then?
It's like.
I don't know. It's been aroundfor 10, 15 years.
All right, Half a point forknowing their logo.
That's, that's, that's it.
What are they about? No, Idon't know what they differentiate.
Okay. You've got no fucking idea?
No.
All right, is Z Supply. Iswomen's kind of like women's casuals.

(09:39):
Okay. Yeah. Okay. All right.Fair Harbor.
Nothing. I'm just going tofair hard. I'm not even going to
try.
No, no.
I mean, it's good. Liketoday's what we probably cross like
at some point at trade showsI've seen like. Right. But I made
no idea. Nothing. I could tellyou nothing about them.
By the way. I was 0 for 2 atthis point as well. Kind of Men's

(10:02):
casuals, swim shorts, notterribly surfy. Okay. Dark seas.
I think that was a show on AMClast year.
I was going to say, I thinkit's the sixth installment in the
friggin Pirates of theCaribbean franchise.
Stephen Kingdom.
I was going to invest moretime in this and it was going to

(10:23):
be a contest of surf brand orShowtime originally.
That's amazing.
Sea Supply. I mean, that could work.
Yeah, but I didn't have thatmuch time. Anyway.
Is that surf company or is ita skate company?
It is sort of. It is. Soagain, zeros for both of you. It
is a men's surf fashion slashskate. A lot of graphic tees. Founded

(10:46):
by the skateboarder Adrian Lopez.
Yeah, right.
Okay. All right. Park it.
Park it's that the app you useat the beach parking lot?
Oh, that would be great. Iwould love that because that sucks.
I feel like this game'skilling all of our credibility.
I know. That's fine. Park it.
Nope, I got nothing.
Nothing.

(11:07):
Nothing. It's beach chairs.Okay. Okay, here's one I think. Here's
one I think you're gonna get. Florence.
Sure, sure. Apparel.
Okay, all right. Men's apparel.
Yeah.
Yes, exactly. Okay.
They actually were at lastyear's outdoor retailer.
They were.
Really? Yeah. Okay, here'sanother one. Avva.
Nope.

(11:29):
Ava.
No, no. So this is a men'ssurf fashion. It's actually shortened
for ambassadors with aloha. Sothe VV is like a W. It's a surfer
brand founded by professionalsurfer Keoa Cazimero based. Based
in Hawaii. So. Okay. Okay.This one, this one you might get

(11:52):
Pelagic.
What is it?
Pelagic. A G, I C. Yes.
I got nothing.
Okay. Performance, fishing,clothing. So pretty nice stuff, actually.
Psd.
Not surfing.

(12:12):
Disqualified.
Whatever. I mean, psd. No,psd, Dave.
Psd. Is that also fishing?
No, no, no. That is actually.It's underwear and activewear with
very loud prints. Okay. Tenor.
Oh, that one.
As in like a tenor in thechoir. T, N. Yeah.

(12:34):
T, E. N, O, R, E. But the longsound over the O. I see.
Nope. What are we getting athere? Like, is this like you Know,
like.
Are we like predictions aroundlike PSD from that rich upstate New
York surf brands.
Is this leading to what?

(12:54):
Okay, let's keep this ballrolling. Okay. Okay, last one.
What's the last one?
Beach and Barn.
Oh, shut up. I feel like beachand Barn, are.
They an authentic brandsbrand? Honestly, I feel like I heard
of them, but I could besomebody else.
Table magazine for rich people.
It's the country living for the.
Yeah, no, no, beach and Barn.It's actually more of an Atlantic

(13:16):
coast fashion. So it's coastalbut a little bit more on the preppy
side.
Oh, so like southeast Vineyard vines.
A little bit. Little bitVineyard vines.
Actually going further back,Colin, there was a brand called Atlantic
Rancher that probably fitsexactly into that catalog brand.
Yeah, right.
So anyway, so okay, sobasically of.

(13:37):
The 10 small towns, big water.Come on, one.
You got one. Okay. Yeah. Okay, good.
And I would say that youlisted maybe two surf brands out
of that whole discussion.
This came out of coverage fromSurf Expo though, right? I mean,
so are we kind of getting atlike, hey man, this is like where
the surf industries at? Isthat kind of like they're in.
The same dark place as we are,right? Like all those surf brands

(13:59):
are no longer. So they're leftwith these kind of shadow, like well,
we get wet so therefore wemust be a surf brand. I no outer
known. Right? No Vista.
I wasn't going to give you, Iwasn't going to give you the easy
ones.
The easy ones. Yeah, fairenough. Anyway, all right, that was
amazing. All right, so whatdoes that say, Owen?

(14:20):
Yeah, what does it sound like?All kidding aside, like what do you
think this says about likewhere we are with things?
I think it says that the, thesurf industry actually has some good
up and coming brands that areactually popping in these stores.
I mean there are other onesobviously. Like the level above them
would be the Katons and theRhythms and those guys that are,
that are doing well andFlorence really is up there. I gave

(14:42):
you that one as just so thatyou wouldn't.
That was nice of you.
Right, so. But no, it saysthat there is, you know, the ecosystem
is still working. There arestill brands that are popping. So
I think that's, that's a good thing.
Like what has become prettynormal around here lately. We're
going to start today with somefootwear headlines. More specifically,
some news around a trailrunning brand. Amazing, right? We

(15:04):
never do that anymore.
Oh, never.
This time it's Topo Athleticwho according to SGB last week reported
a 45% year over year increasein Q2. CEO Tony Post credited the
growth across all channels ofdistribution, leading to the quarterly
increase, as well as thedriver behind this year's sales,
which Post says are up 62%.So, Owen, I don't know if we need

(15:27):
to break down the specifics ofwhat's going right with Topo, because
it's probably similar towhat's going right with a lot of
these footwear brands thatwe're talking about on a weekly basis.
I'm kind of curious what youthink is happening with the category.
I mean, if you go back years,it feels like for a long time we
had four or five prominentrunning shoe brands and a rotating
cast of bit players that like,you know, like, oh, innovate's on
the wall now, or, you know,another brand's going to take the

(15:48):
place of that, whatever it is.But over the past 15 years, it does
seem that there isincreasingly room for growth. And
what do you think has reallychanged to allow? Because, like I
was joking about at thebeginning of the segment, we're talking
about running shoes a lot.It's just like the dominant topic
right now.
What I would say is let's notjust gloss over plus 62%. I mean,

(16:10):
yes, the category is doingwell, but they're kind of kicking
ass over over at Topo. So,yeah, so kudos to Tony and the whole.
The whole gang. But in termsof what's driving these trends, it's
all sort of coming together.For athletic footwear. You've got,
first of all, one of thethings was footwear casualization,
right? And that was partiallydriven by casualization in the workplace

(16:31):
where people were no longerwearing loafers or what have you.
And that accelerated duringCOVID where everyone's now at home,
they don't need anything thatlooks nice, shoes wise. They want
to wear what's comfortable.Hey, I'm going to wear athletic footwear.
So that definitelysupercharged the category there.
Also, obviously, the wholeathleisure movement, which was tied

(16:53):
into that same kind of thing.If you're going to be wearing athleisure,
you're going to be wearingathletic shoes, right? I mean, it
would look kind of silly ifyou wore a brown shoe with leggings.
So that's really driven it aswell, combined with the whole healthy
lifestyle movement, or atleast wanting to look like you're
healthy. So those have allcome together, plus the maximalist

(17:16):
soul piece that's come outwith the Hocus of the world, et cetera.
Those just appeal to runners.But they appeal from a comfort perspective
and also to even oldercustomers who are the ones who have
the most disposable income. Soyou're seeing a lot of older people
who maybe never would havethought of wearing athletic shoes,
are now running around inhokas or maybe even on or what have

(17:38):
you. And then finally you'vegot the whole emergence of trail
running, which has justcontinued to drive even more acceptance
of running as opposed tohiking as the way to interact with
the outdoors.
Yeah, I just want to, youknow, just kind of reiterate what
Owen said too. It's like,look, their success is not, you know,

(17:58):
it's an overnight 15 yearsuccess. Right. They have put in
the investment and thestructure to change the way they
go to market. Their colorassortment, their style assortment
is vastly different than itused to be. Way more on trend. They've
paid attention to their brandin a way that maybe they didn't always
do in the past. And so I thinkwhat you're seeing is the results

(18:20):
of all of this. These seedsthat have been laid, plus these market
conditions that start tochange the tone and the receptiveness.
But yeah, they've done a lotright to get them to this point.
And now you're just seeingthe. Seeing it move.
No, and you're both right.Total kudos to Tony and team, whether
we talked about them prettyrecently, but those are pretty some

(18:40):
bonkers numbers frankly. Sogood job everybody over at topo.
But the 15 year window youreferenced, Dave, is kind of, it's
almost what I'm referring to.It's like post Born to run barefoot
movement. Barefoot movement.Growth. Right. You have. And in the
past, I'm sorry, I'mreflecting on my time at Timberland
when we were bringing out somedifferent running shoes and whatever,
there just wasn't room. Likeit was like literally like scratching

(19:01):
to get a shoe on the wallbecause you know, they had 32 different
ASICs and then there was onespot for somebody else.
No, yeah, you're right. And Iwas just, I was just agreeing with
that. And two, if you're justgoing to talk about your product
feature, there's not going tocreate that room. Right. It's just
there just wasn't the ability.You got to tell the story and build

(19:21):
that tr. And I think that'swhat they've really turned their
attention to.
And I'm sure that some of thisis at retail. There's been a little
more acceptance. If you don'tneed that sort of super dominant
one brand, maybe they kind oflike Fewer styles from some brands
to create room for otherbrands as well. But it kind of leads
me to think about, like wewere talking about before we hit
record about, there was a timewhen surf and ski were like the top
dogs in the industry, right?And outdoor almost existed in a way

(19:44):
to service them. Like, if yougo back to the 60s and 70s and you
told those folks in thatindustry that one day outdoor is
going to eventually outpaceyou, I don't think that they would
believe you. But eventuallythat is ultimately what happened.
And I'm just starting towonder. Kind of a bit of a crazy
experiment here, guys, but,like, could run retail do the same
to outdoor? I mean, if youlook at the blending of functional
apparel, we just had this weeksatisfy a run brand, launch a polartech

(20:08):
Alpha T shirt, right? I mean,so like, which is. Which was a fabric
that was launched with marmotback in 2013. So you have the expansion
of running footwear like we'retalking about, and the sort of diminishing
presence of outdoor specificgear like we've been talking about
in the last couple weeksaround here, too. Is that a possibility
that run is going toeventually outpace outdoor?
It's going to outpace outdoor.I think what you see is that the

(20:30):
outdoor industry over theyears has been a bit of a chameleon,
right? It's willing to adoptwhatever trends are getting people
outside. And to your point, itwas ski, then it was surf, now it's
run. So it's not a matter ofthe run industry outpacing or taking
over outdoor. It's more theoutdoor industry adopting run as
one of its key growth vectors.Right? And you look at it, and it

(20:53):
isn't all totally just goingout and grabbing run. So one could
argue hoka on, they're notreally outdoor brands at all, but
you see them in almost everyoutdoor store. But you've got Salomon,
right? You've got Topo, you'vegot Altra, True outdoor brands that
are all driving the categoryas well. And you've got true traditional
outdoor brands like NorthFace, Merrell, hike brands, really,

(21:16):
in many cases that are gettinginto run, and not just trail running,
but actually in some casesroad running shoes as well. So it's
more just the outdoor industrybeing kind of agile and staying up
with what the trends are thatare driving people outdoors.
I just need to take two pointsaway from Team Comerford for mentioning

(21:36):
Salomon. Okay. I just wantedto mark that down.
It made so much sense, though.I was going along with it.
I was like, oh, that's apoint, Karstad.
All right, you got suckeredin. No, I. I just. It's going to
be an interesting thing to seehow this develops and going forward
over the next five, ten years,for sure. So let's stay in the shoe

(21:56):
world for this next story,because I need to issue an apology
to everyone for all of mygrousing about the growth of gravel
shoes as a category. Becauseaccording to an article earlier this
month on gearpatrol.com Adidasis releasing the Tread Flow, the
first shoe designedspecifically for anybody want to
take a guess running on atreadmill. The Adidas treadmill.

(22:18):
The Adidas Triumph.
It's not outdoor, Colin.
The Adidas Tread Flow willoffer a lightweight, more breathable
pair of shoes that offer zeroweatherproofing and an outsole that
Adidas is calling, quote,light traction that is specifically
formulated to interact withtreadmill belts. And I said I need
to apologize mostly about mygrousing for the category of gravel

(22:39):
shoes, because little did Iknow that the category of treadmill
shoes was about to drop. And Ireally am having a tough time with
this because I think runningon a treadmill sucks, but, man, does
this make sense. Way moresense than gravel shoes makes to
me. What did you guys think?
Totally. Because, I mean, youthink. I mean, part of what we're
bitching about with gravel isthe difference between a gravel shoe
and a trail running shoe isminimal. Right? It's just like, what?

(23:00):
Okay, but this actually makessense because you don't need the
weatherproofing. It's allhappening indoors. You don't have
to worry about, you know,different terrain or whatever. It's
a fucking treadmill, right?It's going to be flat. It's going
to have a little bit of bounceto it, right? I mean, yeah.
Why?
The thing that got me was,like, why. Why is this the first

(23:21):
treadmill shoe? Why hasn'tsomebody thought of this before?
I feel stupid for not thinkingof this sooner because there are
so many people out there whoonly run on treadmills. They will
not run outside.
But the interesting thing forme was it's still $150, so. So it's
not like you're. It's not likewe've taken away all this weatherproofing
and all this other stuff and,you know, and all this traction stuff,
and, hey, now you can have ashoe for 80 bucks that is. That works

(23:42):
great. No, we're actuallygoing to specialize, remove a bunch
of features and charge you $150.
Dave. What do you got on thetreadmill shoe?
I don't know. Didn't wealready talk about this? No.
Adidas last year came out witha one use marathon shoe, like a one
time shoe that you wear for a marathon.
And then we didn't talk aboutthe trail or the.

(24:03):
No, this is new.
No, this is it. I mean, Idon't know, gravel shoes, you know,
treadmill shoes. I mean, likeI said, what's next? You know, a
cobblestone specific retrorunner. Like really, what are.
I think you could crush itwith that, Dave.
Probably could. Right? Patriotcolors, let's go.
And I mean, I'm not kiddingwhen I say this. I'm sort of rethinking

(24:24):
my stance on all of this andjust realizing that it's very much,
you know, old man shakes fistsat clouds. Right. I actually just
got my pair of crafts showedup this week.
Actually. There's a shoe forthat too, Colin.
It's good traction on wetgrass when you're in the front yard
stable.
So you can really get that armup there.
You won't get blow over in astiff breeze. Yeah, my craft showed

(24:46):
up. I'm excited to try them.And I'm just. And to our point, the
point we were talking aboutearlier with just running shoes becoming
sort of just this justdominant player, whether you're talking
outdoor or run or athletic orwhatever, more categories probably
make sense. Honestly, if youwant to have a gravel section makes
a lot of sense. Now we havetreadmill shoes. Makes sense. And
it's a think about where a lotof people are buying these shoes.

(25:06):
If it's a dicks. And nowDick's Sports Foot Locker, that deal
has closed to kind of make itsimpler for the consumer to walk
in and say, what are youshopping for? Here's the column of
shoes. Shop in this column ofshoes makes it a lot easier and simpler.
So I'm kind of on board withgravel now.
So what I would love to seeand maybe have a listener out here

(25:27):
who can help is what did thefootwear wall look like in REI 10
years ago? Oh, and then whatdoes it look like today? Okay, A,
is the wall bigger? I think itprobably is. But B, how are the sections?
Because. Because it used toobviously mainly be hike and kind
of casual. Right. So now we'vegot run. Run I think is probably

(25:48):
the same size, maybe evenbigger than hike in some cases. So
yeah, I would just love toknow how has it changed over the
last 10 years?
Dude, the brown is a littletanner, the navy is a Little lighter
blue. There's some gray andsome gravel and.
Some black tones and thicker midsoles.
Well, a darker green as well.No, no, it's really changed.

(26:09):
I do like that, though.Somebody, maybe.
I think it's changed a lot. Yeah.
I mean, it doesn't have to berei, but anybody who's worked at
a shop for a while who canrecall the old footwear walls and
maybe take a shot and take aphoto of the current footwear walls
and kind ofmyrockflightmail.com, send us the
differences. I'd be verycurious of that. All right, are we
ready for the lightning round?
Let's go. Ready?

(26:31):
Lightning round.
Okay, first up, glamping orcamping in yardstones and tree houses
is now the preferred way tocamp, according to 29% of respondents
in the RMS 2025 State ofOutdoor Hospitality Report. According
to an article published insgb, RMS CEO Adam Seskis says that

(26:53):
when camping, quote, comfortand convenience are no longer just
nice to haves, they're nowexpected. So, Dave, is it surprising
to you that it took this longfor people to realize that it's,
you know, that sleeping on theground isn't all that comfortable?
Right. I almost read this as,you know, hotels more popular than
sleeping on ground. Right.Like, yeah, I get that.

(27:15):
But also we pulled ourgrandparents and.
Right. But this is one ofthose SUS surveys, I have to say.
Right. This doesn't feel right.
Yeah, yeah, this is right. 550people surveyed by RMS North America,
a cloud based reservation andproperty management system designed
for the outdoor hospitalityindustry. Interesting.

(27:38):
Yeah. Guys, I don't know. Idon't think people like camping all
that much. We asked these few to.
Right, that's right.
Next up, according toathletech.com the fitness wearables
market is set to hit $190billion by 2032. So, Owen, outside
of GPS devices and apps, techis largely absent from a lot of what
we see or talk about in theindustry or at outdoor retail. Is

(28:01):
this an oversight or at leastan opportunity?
Not really. The problem withtech is, first of all, the margins
suck. Right? You're looking atlike 20% margins for like a Garmin
GPS watch or a GoPro orwhatever. So, you know, most retailers,
you know, need at least 40points to make stuff work. So that's
the first issue. The secondthing is, if you go ahead and buy

(28:23):
a bunch of this stuff and youdon't sell it in that, that first
season, it's basicallyobsolete. And so now you're actually
taking A mark down below yourcost. It's just not a great category
for outdoor. It just isn't.
Last lightning round storyaccording to a press release last
week. Here we go, guys. Combatflip flops who say that their flip
flops are quote are engineeredwith a fully contoured zero drop

(28:45):
sole for maximum grip supportand all day comfort and are designed
to handle whatever comes next.Is partnering with Spartan, the quote
world's leading sports andextreme wellness brand.
Extreme Wellness.
Is this press release anachievement of peak hyperbole in
the outdoor and active space?I mean, do you want combat flip flops
to help with your extreme wellness?

(29:08):
All right, I'll go. Yes, I do.Call it, man. I have to say, when
I first heard this story, Idid kind of get on myself for my
own failure of imagination toeven think that this was possible.
Combat flip flops, like Isaid, right? Big time. Like, how
did I not see that come? Andthen secondly, I'm like, man, could

(29:34):
you up armor these things? Dothey become hiking boots if you push
the button? Do they come withsidewinders to kind of clear the
trail for you up ahead?
They're designed to handlewhatever comes next.
There's a lot of pos. Are theydrones? Do they fly to you? I'm thinking
there's some cool stuff thatwe could have here.
Well, I think if you're goingto call it a combat flip flop, it

(29:56):
has to be usable as a weaponof some kind and not just for like
slapping somebody across theface. Like what I think.
Okay, that's a dueling flipflop. That's a wholly different thing.
That's right. I do declarethat you are in my way.
There's a button. Okay, I gotit for you. There's a button. You
press and little blades popout each end. And then you throw

(30:16):
it Frisbee style.
And then like I was gonna say,I think that was in a Bond movie.
No doubt.
Which is the.
Yeah, the Secret Serviceversion of that.
It would be hilarious if it'slike designed to handle whatever
comes next. As long as you'reat the beach.
That's right.
All right, let's take a quickbreak to hear from our sponsors.
Then we'll be back withanother round of headlines. All right,

(30:38):
guys, just in time for fall,we're happy to introduce a new sponsor
to the Rock Fight. FjallRaven. And guys, I heard from the
folks at Fjallraven, it turnsout it's actually not a joke. You
seriously cannot fial withoutFjallraven. It's a real thing. Fall
doesn't get nearly enoughcredit for hiking, guys. Everyone
thinks it's summer's theseason, but for hikers, autumn, it's
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(31:01):
Exactly what fialraven's KEBcollection is built for. Born from
trekking in northern Sweden,their jackets, fleeces and trousers
let you focus on nature. Allspecifically designed to make cold
optional. And on ourproduction call this week, Owen actually
was outside in a jacket, so hewould probably. You made cold optional,
maybe without Fjallraven atthat moment?
Absolutely.

(31:21):
Shh.
Don't say that.
So check out the whole kebcollection by clicking the link in
the show notes or search forit when you head to fjallraven.com
where your fall begins, yourFjall begins. Fjall.
Excuse me, I've got a littleproblem with the pronunciation.
I do.
I think a little. Add someherring to your diet. I think that'll
help with your pronunciation.
Did you have to take like. Forthis particular client, did you have

(31:44):
to take special Fjallravenpronunciation classes?
He did. He did. They were atthe local ikea. They had them in
one of the showrooms.
I had to get a Swiss flagtattoo. I don't wanna show it to
you guys right now, but I got it.
Got it.
All right, guys. Last week welearned that mosquitoes kill more
humans every year than anyother animal. And like the Dalai

(32:05):
Lama once said, if you thinkyou're too small to make a difference,
try sleeping with a mosquito.Do you think when you're glamping
that they take the mosquitoesout? Do they personally remove every
single one?
They do, actually, though Ican vouch for this, the worst night's
sleep I've ever had was ahotel room in Addis Ababa and there
was this mother mosquito thatjust would not. Oh, my. It was the

(32:27):
worst. The worst.
There was one. There was only.Maybe there was many of them. You
couldn't tell.
No, no, it was just onemosquito. And.
Yeah, well, I doubt that DalaiLama was sleeping in an Amp Light
long sleeve shirt and. Oh, andyou definitely weren't sleeping in
an amp Light long sleeve shirtfrom Royal Robbins, because the Amp
Light long sleeve, likeeverything else in Royal's MPT collection.

(32:48):
MPT guys, stands for mosquitoprotection technology, which relies
on protection throughconstruction. It's the chemical free
solution to mosquito freedays. And in Owens hotel room or
in the outdoors, to shop theentire MPT collection from Royal
Robbins. And to stay bite freein these waning days of summer. Head
to royalrobbins.com now.
If they could just make aspider free shirt that would be fantastic.

(33:10):
We're in spider season here.
Oh, Northwest spider season is magical.
Yeah, magical.
I love when you go out and seeall the spiders. They're just hanging
out, just trying to eat the.They're trying to eat the mosquitoes.
It's that dark magic.
Today's episode of the RockFights presented by Lem Shoes. As
summer as the summer seasonwraps up, now's a great time to get
ready for fall with Lem's.From easygoing slip ons and refined

(33:30):
leather lace ups to toughtrail ready boots, Lem's offers footwear
for every occasion and theirfit is unmatched. If you've never
experienced the fit of a pairof Lemz, I just feel sorry for you.
I mean, actually Owen, haveyou tried to you tried out your lems
a little bit more since you,since you got them?
I haven't because actually theweather has not really been Lem's
weather. So I'm lookingforward to a Lem's fall or Lem's

(33:52):
Fjall. If we're going to mixsponsors, we're.
Going to cross the streams.
We're crossing the streams,yes. So no, I'm looking forward to
getting them out and about.
Lems are built with comfort,durability and versatility at the
core. And their collection isready to take you to wherever the
season leads. And with fresh,exciting styles just around the corner,
be sure to stay tuned. But inthe meantime, head to lemshoes.com

(34:14):
right now to get your feetinto the best fitting shoe you've
ever worn. Don't let our bigtime production value and celebrity
names fool you. Looking atyou, producer Dave but Rock Fight
LLC is a small business andgrowing brand. And even though we
have our own consigliere, headvises on other matters. We've got
to consult a lawyer every nowand then on the legal structures

(34:34):
that every business needs. Butfor a small business like ours, the
cost to hire general counselor pay a retainer is a non starter.
So what's an outdoorsy founderto do? I mean, come on, we're not
flashing that outside money.Enter Conatus Council. They can help
your business with fractionalgeneral counsel and legal services.
From strategy consulting toadvocacy and government affairs to

(34:54):
real world implementation foroutdoor recreation industry businesses,
Forest over at Conatus Councilhas helped Rock Fight navigate some
of these areas. And let metell you, knowing someone has your
back means you can Focus onrunning your business. I mean, he
had at least three edits tothis read to quote unquote, protect
us from ourselves. I mean,that's what I'm talking about. Forest
cares just as much about theoutdoors and the outdoor industry

(35:16):
as our listeners. So gotquestions? Conatuscouncil.com to
get in touch with Forest. Thefirst six hours are free. Wait, what?
What? I can't say that. Oh,initial consultations are free. Okay,
fine. Looking ahead, guys, tothe holiday season. SGB this past
week covered three looks atwhat we can expect as we head into

(35:37):
the biggest shopping time ofthe year. Surveys From Bay and Company,
Deloitte and PwC all seem toindicate that the holiday shopping
season is going to be up whencompared to last year or looking
at pre pandemic levels, butdefinitely lower than what was expected
heading into 2025. Probablynot that surprising given all the
tariff chaos we've beentalking about throughout the year.
But definitely not welcomenews either, you know. So Owen, based

(36:00):
on these reports, what you'rehearing, how do you see Q4 playing
out for outdoor retail?
Actually, for the PwC, one,that was a survey, it's their holiday
outlook survey, but itindicates an average decline of 5%
year over year. So now what Iwould say with that is surveys are
what people tell you they'renot, they're going to do not what

(36:21):
they actually do. So I thinkmost of the other experts would say,
yeah, people, you know,obviously consumer confidence is
not great right now, so peopleare giving you a not so great result.
But even so, it's not a greatindication. And we actually just,
we're recording this onFriday. The University of Michigan
Consumer Confidence Index cameout and it was down even more in

(36:43):
September. So it was at 55.7versus 70.1 last year in September.
And we talked about that, thenumbers a month ago. Right.
So now it's even worse. And sothat's a really big drop year over
year. So you think about wherewe were last September and how we
were feeling about Q4, theconsumer is in a much, much worse

(37:05):
shape a year later. So then, Imean, the outdoor industry itself
has been in a bit of a funkkind of regardless. And so with all
those things together, itdoesn't seem to be shaping up like
it's going to be a great year.Hopefully if it's down, it's only
down in the low single digits,but it's not looking great. The one

(37:26):
thing I would say though isthere are some potential glimmers
where it actually could cometogether to be not too bad.
Okay.
The first thing I would say isthe folks that are most impacted
by the whole tariff situationand the cost of living issues are
lower income households andyounger people, neither of whom are

(37:47):
big buyers in the outdoorindustry. Okay. So that's the first
thing I would say.
Are you saying the thing thatwe typically complain about with
the outdoor industry isworking in our favor right now?
It's working in our favorfinally. Yeah. The second thing is
what we talked about adnauseam on this podcast is the ongoing
strength of athletic footwear,which the outdoor industry has basically
co opted as its own, which isgreat. The third thing is early forecasts

(38:11):
are actually pointing to acolder, wetter or more snow forecast
for the. At least for thenorthern part of the country. It's
actually going to be hot anddry in the south, they're saying,
but, you know, cold and snowyin the north, which means outerwear.
Okay. And so there could be abit of a pent up demand there for
outerwear. So that might be a positive.

(38:33):
So this is where we're at.Things are so bleak that now we're
looking to the Farmer'sAlmanac to look.
For signs of optimism. Not thefarm. No, this is science. We didn't
look to the Farmer's Almanac,but yeah. Hey, any glimmer, please?
Cold and snow this winterwould just be lovely. A nice even
coating from coast to coast.Let every market revel in that white

(38:54):
goodness out there. Yes.
Yeah. So it could all be okay.But I think at a macro level, I think
the equipment business really,though, is probably going to be in
a tougher spot. But outerwearand footwear could be high points.
You know, the pessimist in mesays 5% would probably be dodging
a bullet. It in terms of justthe way it feels out there right

(39:16):
now. But let's. Let's hope not.
All right, guys, well, nextthing, kind of last thing today,
we've talked a lot abouttariffs in the show as perhaps the
biggest threat, like we justdid to the outdoor industry that
we've seen in some time. Butthis past week, A piece on theguardian.com
highlights a different type offallout that could be occurring,
which is a potential drop inenthusiasm for American fashion brands
and in markets outside of theUS in the piece, which was written

(39:38):
by Lauren Cochran, theunpopular global policies of the
Trump administration don'tseem to be impacting brands like
Netflix or Apple. But when itcomes to brands that present themselves
as decidedly American, Levi'sis highlighted in the article, there
is a backlash coming, if notalready happening. So, Owen, reading
through this article, do youthink that there are outdoor brands
that are similarly at risk tothis kind of backlash?

(40:01):
I don't think so, becauseoutside of yeti, most of the brands
don't really, you know, wavethe flag or, you know, you don't
really chant usa, USA outsideof, outside of the country here.
And in fact, I would say a lotof brands have positioned themselves

(40:21):
as sort of the. On theopposite side of the spectrum to
the current administration.Some by just leaning into sustainability
or pretending to, whereasothers have been more active and
vocal. Like Patagonia, as anexample, is very vocal about their
stance versus the currentadministration. North Face was more

(40:45):
active, I would say, in thefirst term. They had their walls
are for climbing campaign,which I thought was great. They've
been a lot quieter this timearound, as have a lot of brands.
In fairness, I don't want tojust pick on North Face, but yeah,
I don't think so. I think alot of these brands are really viewed
as more global at this point.
Do you think people think ofthat though? Or is it more of a knee

(41:06):
jerk thing like, that's anAmerican brand. I know that they
are, so screw those guys.
You know, I'm gonna take theopposite to that. Where they do think
that they have options wheremaybe in some of these other, like
Netflix or Apple, it's notquite as easy to replace that. But
when we're talking apparel andfootwear, there's so many great options
and they are marketing that,you know, I mean, I wouldn't say

(41:26):
there's so much to boycotts,but you totally have movements on
all the social media platformsabout who is and who isn't, you know,
European. You've got MapleScan up in Canada, you know, talking
about Canadian brands. So Ithink it's just more of guilt by
association from that. Like,to your point, a lot of these brands
identify with a lot of thesame value sets that these customers

(41:48):
have. But these Europeans orCanadians, they're kind of. How else
can they register theirdiscontent? How can they show that
they don't approve but to takeit out commercially, Right, in one
way. And I think that's justthe unfortunate reality of, of the
place that we've been putting.
If I understand what you'resaying, Dave, it's not necessarily

(42:10):
a protest against a NorthAmerican brand in terms of the purchase.
It's more of a support forEurope and European brands.
They're together. I thinkthey're a little bit Together. And
it's easier to do that whenyou have almost a like replacement
sitting right there.
Oh, sure, right.
Do you know what I mean? Andso the American brand doesn't need
to be out. Like you said,Kindaletti being pro, we're made

(42:32):
in USA type of thing. It'sjust that word gets out now because
of social media, people aremaking an issue of knowing who's
where or who's from where. Andlike I said, I think outdoor brands
are probably the least suspectin terms of supporting this type
of these moves. But they'rejust. How else does a young European

(42:53):
outdoor customer registertheir opposition to what's going
on? And that's just an easyway to do that.
Just like any Canada's gonnamean they're definitely looking to
not buy anything from the us.
Well, that's a big broader.That's a case where it's an entire
national kind of credo now,right, that they turn that into affecting

(43:13):
all sectors. But if you're inScandinavia or something, you've
got some great options thatyou would already be looking at.
So why would you? Why wouldn'tyou? Why wouldn't you?
What I would say though is ifyou actually look at the numbers
that are being reported by thepublic companies right now, almost
everyone is struggling in theUS market and doing much better in

(43:34):
the rest of the world. Sothey're flat to down quite a bit
in the US market, whereas therest of the world, they're up. And
I think that is more atestament to the impact of tariffs
and other things on the USmarket than it is to overall consumer
love or hate about the usa.But yeah, those international markets

(43:57):
are what's propping us upright now.
Yeah, interesting.
We probably have to change howwe're covering this stuff on the
show because it feels like nowa lot of stuff we said is it's slowly
coming to fruition. It's goingto be like this is what is going
to continue to happen, whetherit's choice or the terrorists themselves
or whatever it is. And nowit's going to be like, what are we
looking for wins? Or we'rejust waiting for the, you know, the
cracks to form so thatsomething actually changes. Because

(44:18):
like, yep, this is what'shappening now is the way it said
though.
It really is two distinctactions. There's the tariff aspect
which has the economic andsupply chain piece to this and it's
going to affect places differently.
But.
But then there is the. Justthe anti Americanism based on our
foreign policy choices.
Right.
That's also becoming more andmore in the faces of people that

(44:41):
maybe it didn't before.
It's time for a party shot.
All right, it's time for theparting shot. And for this week,
I think, I think producerDave's got a couple updates on our
pals over at Columbia. Afterthe brief and a few other things
we've been talking about withtheir engineer for whatever campaign,
there were some developmentsgoing on over there. Dave, what's
creatively happening overwith. Hold on.

(45:03):
Is this a parting shot or isthis a whole segment? I thought a
parting shot was just like,all right, we're on our way out.
What do you got?
Exit.
That's what I'm doing. But yousaid you really set it up as like
this is going to be some kindof thought out reporting structure.
And I guarantee you it's notright. It's definitely a party shot.
All right. I was trying togive you a little meet up.

(45:27):
We all saw it and kids wereColumbia with their first off. This
is the most we've talked aboutColumbia in the years that we've
been doing this. And heremarketing works one hit after another.
But I have to say, if you'regoing to follow up the made for whatever
and you're following it upwith an announcement that Robert
Irwin, son of Steve Irwin,carrying on that legacy is going

(45:49):
to be a global ambassador foryou. And just the way they're positioning
it and I think the kind of thepower of that platform, it's fantastic.
What a perfect representationfor their brand as just, well, as
the category. I just, I thinkit's a, it's a great expression of
kind of taking us to thatlevel in, in a way that's going to

(46:09):
resonate with people. So Ithink that is, I think I called that.
That's 10 out of 10 rightthere. That's a perfect execution
of this. And then, you know,they've of course made it on all
the socials and you go totheir website and if you go to their
website, you're also in for atreat because it has also been completely
overhauled. Right. And thewebsite is that. Okay, we asked what's

(46:30):
next after this video campaignand we see the paid pieces. Okay,
it's just an ad campaign.Well, the website really looks like
they're now taking that secondstep in terms of modernization of
the brand. It's way morecontemporary. Of course it has elements
of the visual campaign in it,but man, even the way you take their
current product line andpresent it in this new way, it feels

(46:51):
Fresher. The whole thing feelsfresher. So I think in terms of.
This is a next step. It's apretty powerful one two in to kind
of moving the bar of howpeople perceive the brand.
All right. And Matt Sutton,that's the last time we talk about
this without you paying this.
That's right.
That's right.
That's it. You've reached your limit.

(47:12):
Come on.
Of freebies.
What I like is that obviouslythey're rolling out sort of the vibe
of the engineer for whatever,into just the way that they're even.
Just the copy on the website.There's a section here about joining
their loyalty. It says, not amember. Let's fix that. You know,

(47:34):
so it's much more like directand that sort of thing. Even like,
for. They're talking abouttheir trail running shoes. Shoes
that give the trail blisters,you know, so it's taken that little
bit edgy, tougher wording andworking it into the whole copy of
the site, which I think isgreat, which is why.
I think you hear theenthusiasm in Dave's voice as a creative

(47:55):
director. If you go back,there's an episode we did a few months
ago where Shantae, Dave and Ikind of broke down some brand videos.
And some of the things I thinkwe talked about in that episode was
how a lot of times brands willjust make a brand video and then
they put it on YouTube, youknow, or their website for a month,
and then it just lives there.
Yeah.
And so which easily Columbiacould have had a 400 good press.
Right. With this cool videothey made. And then you still like

(48:16):
it seems like. And Matt toldus this when he was on the show.
They're taking the. This is a.This is a rebrand now, not just a
campaign.
Oh.
Some of the print work, whichis amazing that we still do print
work out there. It's prettycool. Cool. But one of the headlines
is this cl. This jacket is aclimate denier. Right. You know,
or Jack Frost ain't got jack.You know, and. Fantastic, right?

(48:40):
Fantastic.
And to prove that thediscourse is alive and well, especially
on LinkedIn, Mammut has a newcampaign out that is now like, you
know, gatekeeping, you know,keeping their. Their apparel. You
can't go use it in the citynow. They're gonna make it. They're
gonna take it away from you.And it's. And it's pissing. That's
pissing people off. So. So youcan't win if you're an outdoor brand
in 2020.

(49:01):
No, you can't yeah, that'sright. Because they had that whole
we are not streetwear brandright thing. Yeah.
And their whole video is like,there's like a task force that's
going out and taking the stuffthat people are just like hanging
out at a coffee shop, takingtheir jacket off and then like mailing
it back to the mountains kindof thing. And, and some people were
upset about that. So it's kindof just, it's pretty fun.

(49:22):
I think that, I think that'sgreat because, you know, we, we,
we, we talk about the whole,you know, whatever it is, mountain
to bar aspect of the wholething, which really is the way that
we're going. But it's great totake the opposite of that approach,
I think is fun.
Even though 90% of whatthey're selling is guaranteed of
being worn in a.
City somewhere, 100% they'rejust going to Bar Mountain. I think

(49:46):
that's just turning it around.
See, that would have been agood end to that game if the mountain
they were sending to was justa bar somewhere.
Bar Mountain.
Yeah. Bar Mountain.
Yeah.
Right.
Bar Mountain.
That's right. Right.
All right, everybody, that'sthe show for today. We want your
emails. Please send them tomyrockfightmail.com we need to get
more emails than gear. I'm onboth shows so I really win in both
kind of these instances. Butgear Abbey or versus the Rock Fight

(50:11):
email fight. It's onmyrockfightmail.com the Rock Fight's
a production of Rock Fight LLCin today's episode produced by producer
Dave Art direction Provided bySarah Gensert 4 For Owen Comerford,
I'm Colin True. Thank you forlistening. And back again to take
us out's Krista Meigs with theRock Fight Fight song. We'll see
you next time. Rock fighters.
Rock fight. Rock fight. Rockfight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock

(50:36):
Fight. Welcome to the Rockfight Where we speak our truth Slay
sacred cows and sometimesagree to disagree. We talk about
human powered outdooractivities and big bites about topics
that we find interesting likepop culture, music, the latest movie

(50:58):
reviews, ideas that aim forthe head. This is where we speak
our truth. This is where wespeak our truth. Rock fight. Rock
fight. Rock Fight. Welcome tothe Rock fight. Rock fight. Welcome
to the Rock light Rock lightRock fight. Rock light Rock light

(51:20):
Rock fight. Welcome to theRock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.
Rock fight.