August 18, 2025 • 49 mins
Today Colin along with Outdoor Industry Insider Eoin Comerford and Brand & Creative Expert Producer Dave dig into the following topics and headlines that have been percolating in the outdoor industry:
- With brands like On Running and Brooks joining Altra, Saucony, and Hoka in the 'recent excellent financial performance club', is the category of running set up to weather the tariff storm better than everyone else? (05:50)
- The Rock Fight Lightning Round! This weeks lightning round topics include: Gildan Activewear acquires Hanesbrand for $2.2b, Merrell's claim that they are modernizing hiking, and a stop by Pickleball Corner. (21:41)
- Vuori turns 10 and celebrates by opening its 100th store. Is there anything that can slow them down? (29:03)
- On the other side of the athletic coin Under Armour is still trying to refind it's footing. Maybe they need a little more 'grrrr'. (36:08)
Lastly for The Parting Shot Colin has a look at the endurance world's 'discovery' of Rice Krispie Treats. (45:12)
Thanks for listening! The Rock Fight is a production of Rock Fight, LLC.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
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hero. Sell through is the way.Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.
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Welcome to the Rock Fight,where we speak our truth, slay sacred
cows, and sometimes agree todisagree. This is an outdoor podcast
(01:49):
that aims for the head. I'mColin True, and joining me today,
just like they do every Mondayhere on the Rock Fight, the outdoor
industry insider andconsigliere to the Rock Fight, Owen
Comerford and brand andcreative expert producer Dave, AKA
the Monday boys.
Hey, there it is. All right.We need to actually get a. You know,
an actual sound.
(02:10):
Oh, I like when you do it.
Okay, fine. I'm gonna charge extra.
That.
That's it? I mean, I. Oh,that's a good idea.
Actually. Yeah, that's not inyour original contract.
Yeah, those have been free upto now, but yeah, those are gonna
cost you.
I don't know if you are awarecause it's on a text thread, Owen.
But Shantae Salibar had somenotes about your 90s band's preferences
(02:32):
after listening to last week's EP.
Whoa, I missed that on thetext string. Really? It's been a
busy day. Okay. She didn't.
She took particular exceptionto Sublime being referenced.
What?
Yeah. Really?
Yeah. Oh, okay. It's no longerPC in the current.
(02:52):
World, I think it'd be morebecause his son took over. Bradley
Null's son is the lead singerof Sublime now, which is kind of
a cool story.
There were so many otherbands. I mean, I could go on, on
all the bands that you guysmissed, but, you know, those are
just some that. Those are justsome that came to mind. At least
you called out Matthew's SweetGirlfriend as a classic. One of the
best.
(03:12):
I'm 100%, too. Today, we'regoing to get into some industry headlines,
but first, some programmingreminders. Tomorrow, Doug Schnitzman
opens the container like healways does on Tuesday. His guest
this week is CatherineAndrews, the director of Arkansas's
Office of Outdoor Recreation.So make sure you're listening to
Open Container and check thatout. Also, come back to the Rock
Fight this Wednesday, whereI'll be joined by the aforementioned
(03:34):
Sublime hater Shantae Salibarto check out the latest headlines
that come out of the outdooradventure community. And hey, Dave.
Producer Dave, how can ourlisteners get a little bit more from
the Rock Fight? If they, ifthey would like to.
Call in so many ways, I wouldrecommend subscribing to our newsletter
News from the front. Head overto Rock Fight Co and sign up. And
(03:55):
it's all right there in frontof you. And it's pink and black and
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Oh, and if our listeners wantto reach out to us, what should they
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Well, of course, they canalways email us@myrockfightmail.com
apparently somebody hadrockfightmail.com okay, anyway, myrockfightmail.com,
probably the same asshole thatowns rockfight.com probably. Son
(04:18):
of a bitch. Anyway, becausewe're rockfight co. All right. But
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Fight Co. And just followalong for all of the excitement.
You can even send us a dm andI'm sure somebody will read it or
(04:39):
maybe get back to you.
I'll read it.
Oh, oh. Colin will read it.There we go.
I'll read it and then I'llheart it. Unless you're being mean
and then I won't.
Oh, okay.
Send you to our Discord serverand our Snapchat.
Yes. All of which are realthings. Okay. The opening shot on
today's episode of the RockFight is presented by Lem's shoes.
As the summer season wraps up,now's a great time to get ready for
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And today guys, we're startingwhere we've been a lot lately. We're
talking about running. Nowthis isn't a full on edition of Tariff
Watch 2025, but there weresome stories that come out of the
past week from the runningworld that puts us on Tariff Watch's
(06:03):
corner because I want toexplore the run world, particularly
the brand on running and howthey might, it may be, it might be
a little tariff proof. Solet's get into this here with some
news about on running perretail dive.com on second quarter
sales were up 32% year overyear and the brand raised its full
year outlook to 31% growthafter previously saying they thought
they would grow to be 28% inregards to tariffs on seems to be
(06:27):
non plussed when it comes tothe topic that is driving a lot of
the conversations we're havingon this show recently. CEO/CFO apparently
Martin Hoffman over therewears both hats and he was quoted
as saying, quote, we have noteven spoken to retail or factory
partners about mitigationefforts. We haven't needed to, end
quote. So Owen, does that readto you as hubris, confidence? Maybe
(06:50):
a little of both.
Maybe a little bit of both.I'm sure there are some executives
out there that are thinkingwhat a fucking dickhead.
You know, we just don't needto. I can't do a Swiss accent. I
don't know.
I don't need to. Whatever.Yeah, but it comes from the fact
that they're really seeingtheir demand at strip supply and
(07:12):
I thought it was reallyinteresting that actually their D2C
sales were quite a bit. Thegrowth was even much, much higher
in D2C, it was like over 40%growth in D2C whereas wholesale was
like mid twenties in growth.Right. Which tells me that basically
the wholesale didn't buyenough. They sold out. And so everyone
went to D2C because their D2Cis a full price DTC, they're not
(07:34):
driving their D2C sales withdiscounts. So people are coming to
them because they can't get itat wholesale. And it's this great
virtuous cycle of demandoutstripping supply. And so you can
really kind of do what youwant there and potentially just hey,
if we're going to hit withtariffs, we'll just raise our prices
(07:55):
a little bit, you know,because we're not worried about demand
elasticity with priceincreases because we're selling everything
we can make. So it's a greatplace to be. You're not always going
to be there as a brandtypically, but yeah, good for them.
Apart from tariffs, you know,we talk a lot about the European
brands who are eyeballingcoming into the US and expanding
(08:16):
into this territory here. But.And as a European brand, you know,
ON does seem to be doingthings differently. They're finding
success here when other brandsare struggling to get traction. Like
what do you think thatdifference is? What are they doing
differently?
Well, first the thing thatjumped out at me is the fact that
they're America. So they're aEuropean based brand out of Switzerland,
I believe. Typically whatyou'd see is that brands are biggest
(08:42):
in their home markets and theEuropean market is generally speaking
about the same size as theNorth American market. So you'd have
thought Europe would be atleast slightly bigger than North
America. Not so for an.Actually America is I think two or
three times bigger thanEurope. So they've really not just
been successful here. This istheir main market. And I think there's
(09:06):
a few reasons for that. One isNike's retreat from wholesale really
opened the door for. For ONand other challenger brands. Quite
frankly, ON also reallybenefited from having a distinct
visual tech approach becauseof their soul and the whole things
that are there. Right. Whichreally stood out as being very different
(09:26):
for customers, especiallyyounger customers who didn't want
to be seen wearing theirmother's or father's Nikes. Right.
And so they said they'vereally embraced the brand. This is
cool and different and fun.Okay. All this came at the same time
that Covid was booming. Sotheir timing was just perfect. Really
(09:47):
Through. No, not, not. Theywere just, you know, good timing.
And then finally they'vereally understood the importance
of top of the funnelmarketing. Rather than just come
over here, sell in atwholesale and hope things happen,
they came in, had some initialtraction and then really started
to invest on top of the funnelto where now I think getting Zendaya
(10:08):
as an example, as a brandambassador, rather than just the
tired, oh, let's figure outwhat athlete hasn't signed with Nike
or ID DASA yet and get thesecond tier athlete. No, we're going
to go first tier superstar andyou know, just really break the playbook
for athletic brands. Sothey've just made so many great moves
(10:28):
in this market, I think so.
As you know, it's Zendaya justfor futures. I want you to get in
trouble with the youth in yourfamily, in your life. You know.
We made the consigular speechless.
Had to do it.
Zendaya, he said, yeah, ledyou down the path, he lets you go
there.
Well, you are making reallygood points. I also didn't want you
(10:50):
to, you know.
True. Yeah. No, I mean, if we,if we can't be accurate on this podcast,
what are we?
I seriously, this is theproven to be the most 100% accurate
podcast of all time.
I believe this is not a guarantee.
Dave, what do you like, what'sgoing on over on running from a brand
perspective?
I think he hit all of that. Imean, brand perspective, right? I
mean first the visual tech,it's a clean look, so that's always
(11:11):
going to be popular. It'salways going to have a hit and they
do it well. I think the, likeyou said, the top of the funnel,
the Zendaya, it's not just thefact that they signed an A list celebrity
and a very generational one. Ithink they're using her really well.
I think the. Honestly, whenyou're, when you're Swiss and you're
(11:33):
clean tech, the inclination isto be very structured and very linear
about your communication andeverything must look in that way.
And they did a lot of that atthe beginnings, for sure. But I would
say the stuff that they'redoing now, it has heart.
Right?
There's just, there is a soulto that and there's a. And that's
just a little different thanwhat you expect. And again, that's,
(11:55):
you know, that's the Nikeplaybook. Right. They've been always
very good at bringing out somekind of heart or soul in the athletes
that they bring to theircommunication. And I think that they've
done that but they're alsousing kind of a future tech kind
of wrapping around that. So Ithink it does help that at the same
time they are hitting the corepieces of this. I mean it's on running
(12:16):
right that they are lean into that.
It's in the name.
And again I'll go anecdotallybut they opened their, their concept
store here in Portland not toolong ago and a kind of a trendy spot
kind of place you'd expect itto be. But I'll tell you a couple
times a week, once a week thatrun club that they have in the evening
there's 30, 40 people out infront of that store and they'll you
(12:39):
know, probably a mile or so tothe trail and then back again. So
they're getting good peoplecoming out to it regularly. It's
always going on. And so to methat's just to get another sense
that they're also resonatingwith the core user that they need
to not just as they blow upand go go outward. So I just, I think
the two things going togetherare in their favor for sure. And
get clean aesthetic. You justcan't. You have a nice looking product
(13:01):
that goes with everything.
There you go.
Yeah. The Zendaya of it all isreally interesting. Anytime like
one of their either spots orit doesn't add or something pops
up with her in it, I alwayslike wait, it takes me back. I'm
like oh yeah, that's right, Iforgot that she's in these. It doesn't,
it's not what you expect.
In an athletic and you knowthey're also doing again you take
a go away from the running.The way they've used Federer to get
into tennis though he's notlonger playing and they've now signed
(13:25):
some, you know they're makinga definite move into court sports
like in not, not holding backfrom that. And you know tennis doesn't
have the populationparticipation but it's on tv, it's
on clips. It's definitely it,it marks you as a serious contender
to a multi sport athleticbrand. You know, not just a single,
a single channel.
So they're going after thatsweet sweet pickleball money.
(13:47):
Sweet sweet pickleball clubsports man. That's a, it's a way
to keep your, your brandpremium. You still play in performance
and it's also, it's in a greatextension if your clean running is
kind of where you come from. Awhite court shoe, you know that that's
just the other side of theequation in terms of product that
goes with lots of people's outfits.
(14:07):
The interesting thing for mefrom the outdoor perspective is for
all of the running brands thatwe try to pretend are outdoor brands
and sell in outdoor stores.It's the biggest stretch in my mind
because they really don't havemuch of a, of a trail running background.
Even their tech. Right. Thisbig open cell thing doesn't work
(14:32):
for trail running. Right.Because you get gravel and shit in
there, it's a disaster. Sothey've created versions obviously
that don't have that tech, butit's sort of anti the overall brand
altogether. But it just doesshow that, hey, within the outdoor
industry, if we can sell it toour customers, we're going to sell
it even if it isn't really outdoorsy.
Right, right.
It's outside. And I just, I dowant to point out to all those that
(14:53):
did not vote for my that ON isa power player here. So shame on
you all.
Looking at your fourth placefinish, Dave.
I don't know if that's what I mean.
I think there's a lot ofmiscalculation here. Who's laughing
now?
Shantae?
Shantae.
(15:13):
Well, let's talk about runningin general. Right, so last week we
talked about Altra and Sauconyhaving big quarters. A few weeks
back we talked about HOKAbeing up again. And in addition to
ON's earnings this past week,Brooks also reported a big Q2. So
per SGB, Brooks set an alltime quarterly revenue high for Q2,
achieving quote double digitgrowth in every region and channel
and expanding global revenueby 19% year over year. So Owen, I
(15:37):
know we keep saying the worstis yet to come when it comes to tariffs,
but is running the bestposition category to deal with tariffs?
Because between all thesefacts and figures and the surge in
brands bringing new trailrunning lines to market, I kind of
wonder if we're going to beeating crow next year when it comes
to running. Just got to keepon chugging along even in the face
of all this uncertainty.
Well, running is not theoutdoor industry. I would say that
(15:59):
from the outset. So I thinkwe're talking more about where the
outdoor industry is going tobe maybe in six, eight months. But
yes, running as a category isreally quite well positioned just
because it's in a period ofgrowing demand, whereas the outdoor
category is flat to downsingle digits over the last number
of years. So yeah, it's wellpositioned. I think the other thing
(16:21):
that's really helped runningas it deals with tariffs and other
Things is actually the supershoe of it all. And what I mean by
that is super shoes have sortof changed the price anchor around
running shoes to be muchhigher than they used to be. You
know, if you said to somebody,whatever, five years ago, oh, yeah,
there's going to be a ton of$300 shoes out on the market, and
(16:43):
they'll all actually beselling, you know, at some volume.
People said, are you fuckingcrazy? No way. No way that would
ever happen.
No one would ever accept that price.
Yeah, I mean, maybe like forsome ultra, ultra people who are
just. But no people are outthere buying super shoes to run in
their half marathon in a 5K. Imean, it's a little insane, but obviously
(17:07):
not a ton of people are buyingsuper shoes. But it's just changed
the price anchor or the priceperception to where it used to be.
$120, I mean, I felt like, wasa relatively expensive athletic shoe.
Now it's 150, 160. And sothere does seem to be a little bit
more pot for upward movementon price in this category, which
(17:29):
obviously helps in the face oftariffs and price increases than
in the wider outdoor space.
Yeah, I was just back toschool shopping with my kids yesterday
at the Nike store with my onedaughter, getting a pair of Nike
Pegasus Zooms. And as much aswe talk about this, it was 145 bucks,
which was maybe one of thecheapest running shoes on the wall.
And I still had a moment justmy old brain being like, oh, these
(17:49):
will be like a buck 20. Andthen I'm like, oh, yeah, that's right.
This is what it costs forrunning shoes now. So, Dave, is there
anything that can be takenfrom the broader running brand, categorically
speaking, like the brand ofrunning that can sort of be applied
by runners, by others here?
Well, let's take our outdoorlens. You know, what goes up must
come down.
I mean, look, running is a bigpart of outdoor, and you go to shops
(18:10):
that are running shoes.
It's just, look, you know, ifanything, if a trend, if a fad moves
to a trend, you know, we're.It will soften at some point. You
know, I guess that adage aboutcoming down is only true except for
prices. Right? Prices aregoing to keep going up. But right
now it does seem like runningis a little impervious to this, and
(18:30):
it's just gaining more andmore traction and wider followers.
You know, look, it's a. It's agateway activity to the outdoors.
Right? I mean, in terms ofjust even getting outside and doing
something. We talk about thatas the outdoor shifting. Of course
that's going to be a, animportant piece to that. So I just,
you know, like I said, lookingfor the horizon. What's, where's
(18:51):
it going? I don't know howhigh it's going to get, but at some
point it will come back down.
As you talked about in thispod, it has been driven more by trend
and fashion. People wanting towear those shoes and they're very
comfortable. Right. And sothat makes a ton of sense. But really
the hiking boot of the 10years ago was also driven by trend.
(19:12):
People liked the chunky bootlook of things, the Timberlands,
et cetera. So those thingscould still happen. Right? I mean,
Timberland was a streetwearthing and then now streetwear is
much more of a sneakerculture. But Colin, you even shared
a YouTube video with us thisweek. And in that video, the guy
there who was obviously veryhooked into the streetwear of it
(19:32):
all, was saying, now maybestreetwear is moving a little bit
beyond sneaker culture andgetting into things like loafers
as an example. Hopefully notspeed loafers.
The Snofer snower is acategory now.
There you go. But loafers andthen also even more sort of classically
styled products and then someof the more outdoorsy running aspects.
(19:56):
So are we going to see runningas a trend from a fashion perspective,
morph more into trail running,so taking more of an outdoorsy vibe
to that same running shoe. Andtrail running takes off not because
more people are running on atrail, just because the trail running
of it is a cooler look thanthe non trail running of it.
Right.
(20:17):
If you even go just evenhigher in terms of just mass styles
look, there's going to be asneaker moment, there's going to
be a boot moment, there'sgoing to be a brown shoe moment in
this larger sense. Andobviously brands and categories fit
within those, but they justebbs and flow. So if sneaker or you
know, running and sneakershave been dominant for so long, boots
(20:37):
are going to find their wayback and become the dom. And when
that happens, then maybethey'll come back down to lower,
lower to the ground. I mean,we haven't talked about barefoot,
not the kind of super end ofthe spectrum to that, but just its
just its influence on overall styles.
Yeah, the foot health functionkind aspect of that category.
The trainers, I mean just theclassic trainer are just tend to
(21:00):
be flat. You know, vans hasbeen down while, you know, at some
point that's going to comeback, you know, that's a version
of sneaker, if you will. So Ijust, I think you're just kind of
looking to see whichtraditional large segment will kind
of come up and down and, andit'll move a lot of categories with
it.
I, I can confirm that as thegaze from one of my 14 year olds
(21:22):
yesterday looking at the vanstore at the Grove in la just would
have set it on fire if itcould. Like vans like, not into it
at all. Like, that was like.Yeah, tough times for vans with the
kids.
Yeah.
That just means they're aboutto come back is what that means.
The war, another couple years.
The war is back. Everythingwill be fine. Don't worry about it.
Yep, yep. Exactly.
(21:44):
Lightning round.
All right, it's time for therock fight. Lightning round. Are
you guys ready?
All right.
So ready.
All right, first up, lastweek, Gildan Activewear announced
a proposed acquisition ofHanes brand for $2.2 billion, with
Gildan president Glenn Shamitysaying the big upside of the deal
is expanding Hanes inactivewear. Oh, and I'm gonna give
(22:07):
you two choices. You pick themost likely outcome. Does an expansion
by Hanes and activewear lookmore like a Vuari competitor or being
the dominant active casualbrand at Kohl's?
Well, obviously Kohl's is theobvious answer here. You know, Gildan
is being viewed as activewear.Well, I mean, it's teasing hoodies.
Okay. Is that activewear? Iguess it's activewear. Yeah, sure.
(22:29):
It's really more loungewearmore than anything else. Yes. They've
got some performance pieces inthere, but it's really, it's really
pretty casual stuff. So myfavorite, actually part of that press
release is how they keptcalling Hanes an innerwear brand.
I, I, I, I. Had you heard thatbefore? I had never heard.
I think we're missing out andI feel like we're not doing our job
(22:50):
if we don't know if there'sthe three of us don't know what Inner.
I've not heard of inner.
Innerwear because I've heardof an adwear brand, obviously.
Is that like an Innie or anAudi with your belly button?
Yeah. Right. So, yeah. Is it.You have clothing for your stomach.
Next up, last week, Merrell,who, like other footwear brands we
just talked about, hadthemselves at Gray Q2, laid claim
to, quote, modernizing thetrail. Wolverine's CEO Chris Hufnagle
(23:13):
said that Merrell's, quote,faster, lighter, more athletic product
offerings continue to fuelmomentum and drive significant, significant
share gains in the hikingcategory. End quote. Dave, we said
that hiking is ripe as acategory to be elevated. But between
these and between thesecomments by Huffnagel and Shantae
winning our top outdoor branddraft with Merrill on her team. Do
you think Merrill is alreadysetting the tone for hiking as a
(23:35):
category?
I'm still thinking about theGildan and Hanes acquisition. I think
that is the largest unbrandedacquisition I've ever heard of. Right.
I mean, or not heard of of.
Or don't care about the non brand.
Yeah, right.
2.2 billion non brand.
2.2 billion non branded discussion.
Come on. Hanes is definitely abrand. I, I, I, I agree that Gildan
(23:58):
is, is sort of the, a hiddenbrand, but Hanes is a brand. But
it's known for its inner wearthough. Let's, let's be clear.
Right? And in the 80s they hadcommercials right along with McDonald's.
Yeah, no, no doubt, no doubt.
I'm gonna just formallyapologize to Merrill. Cause I really
tried to throw them up bonethis week and like, you know, and
then we just went where wenormally went with them.
(24:19):
Well, hey, I'll throw him abone. I thought it was really interesting.
They actually announced thatthey are establishing a junior board
within the company. So they'retaking key younger members of the
Wolverine worldwideorganization, you know, whether they
be in design or digitalmarketing or whatever. And they're
creating this junior boardthat's I guess advising the real
(24:43):
board on like oh no, this ishow the world actually works today
and not what a bunch of 60somethings think.
Are they translating memes?No, no, that's not what they really
meant.
No, no gens they meet on TikToks.
I love that idea. I thinkthat's actually awesome. And not
(25:05):
only does it, it kind of helpyou identify talent, but it really
does at least get some kind ofstructured way to get a, a truly
relevant perspective to bubbleup. No, no doubt. I don't think you
have to be the 60 year oldboard member either to benefit from
that. I think that the kind ofthose discussions and what that comes
out of it could be really,really helpful.
(25:26):
All right. Finally today we'reon Pickleball Corner as Pickle Rage
expanded their indoorpickleball. You have to say it that
way. You can't just say PickleRage. You have to say Pickle Rage
expanded their indoorpickleball facilities last week by
opening a new franchiselocation in New Jersey. For both
of you. When playing at PickleRage, where do you think the rage
comes in when you're out thereplaying pickleball. Where does the
(25:47):
rage manifest itself?
The neighbors, the people thatlive next to these facilities are
rage filled over the constantclacking sound. So I think there's
plenty of rage, Colin.
I think the rage, the ragecomes from losing to oxygen. Veterinarians,
you know, you're out there,you think you're pretty hot stuff.
You're, you know, you're a GenX, you're in your, your 50s, say,
(26:09):
and then, yeah, gramps, grampsand grandma come over and just kick
your ass. Yeah, it's just notgood, that, that. And also apparently
all you're allowed to drink isMC Ultra, which I just.
Exclusive partnership withMick Ultra.
I cannot do that.
Who drinks? The people.Someone must be drinking. Miggle.
They keep advertising it. Ithink they just made a bunch. They
(26:31):
can't sell it. They're justgoing to like keep advertising until
it's finally gone.
Go drink it, apparently.
I think it's got a sales leadership.
Yeah, it probably does. Yeah.It's people that actually don't.
Not only do they not havetaste, they just don't want taste.
Right. They're wearing theirinnerwear and they want a beer to
go with it.
(26:51):
Right, Exactly. Hanging out intheir gilding teas, just drinking
in the culture.
Today's main event on the RockFight is presented by Oboz, who wants
to share their love of hiking.And we want to help them by uncovering
all the different reasons welove to take the long walk, including
the following reasons. Numberone, you can drink instant coffee
while you're out there andpretend it's artisanal because you
(27:13):
know, it's like, wow, you'redrinking coffee and you. Right.
It's true.
Okay.
Number two, you get to pointdramatically at peaks and say, that's
where we're headed. Numberthree, you get to judge other hikers
gear choices in the wild,something I am convinced that everyone
on this podcast does. Ofcourse, Dave's just smiling. And
number four, no one will judgeyou poorly if you're out there hiking
(27:34):
in a pair of obo's highite midwaterproof boots. Obo's highlight
is rooted in the spirit of OBOof Highlight Canyon. Designed for
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(27:56):
footwear for the trail and thecupid to the Outdoor world, Oboz
love hiking.
And I just want to justapologize to Michelob Ultra. While
I am not a connoisseur of yourbeer, evidently they actually have
the highest market share inthe country of 18.7% draft of shares
(28:18):
of draft and they are thenumber 2 total sale size beer next
to Modelo. So that's. Yes. Soclearly pickleballers drink.
As if we didn't need anothersign that this country is headed
in the wrong direction. Oh my God.
Nick on draft sounds terrible.Like just I guess I'm gonna hand
(28:41):
me a cold bottle of it. Imight drink it or something. But.
Well, look, it's the finest ofwhat air and water can do.
It's. It's very hydrating, youknow, which is important. It's important.
It's important to hydrate.
So Y man number two bestselling beer in the US Yep, there
you go.
These are the days we'reliving in, boys. Okay, so per SGB,
(29:04):
last week Vuari celebrated its10 year anniversary by opening its
100th store, beating its goalof 100 retail locations by a full
year. They were targeting tothat for 2026. Vori also recently
opened flagship locations inLondon and Shanghai. And this fall
we'll be opening stores inBeijing. In Seoul, a quote from the
company stated, after garningwidespread attention and loyalty
(29:24):
from consumers in the UnitedStates, the brand has strategically
expanded its globalomnichannel presence, now serving
customers across close to 30countries through a growing network
of brick and mortar locationsand a robust network of distributors.
Because it's only been 10years since they have arrived on
the scene, the industrydiscourse or narrative I feel like
is largely negative stilltowards Vuari on the from, from the
(29:47):
folks we talk about in thespecialty retail front and these
sort of core outdoor fol, yetall they seem to do is go out and
crush it. They are a GOA brandwho sells to our best outdoor retailers
and they are also activelychanging the landscape of active
apparel globally. So when willthe more noisy voices in the industry
move on from the narrativethat Vuori doesn't really belong
in the outdoor conversation?
I would say probably just intime for Viori to pull out of outdoor
(30:10):
retail. I say that justbecause clearly they're traveling
more down the arc' teryx pathwhere D2C is their main channel and
then they strategically chooseother distribution points that align
with where they want to befrom a customer perspective, from
a pricing perspective, butalso from a location perspective.
(30:32):
So at Moose Jaw we actuallydid. Vuori was our number one brand
in store number one. But weweren't allowed to have Vuori in
every store because like ourBoulder location, we couldn't have
Vuori because guess what? Theyopened a Viori store across the street.
So to what degree are we goingto see more of that show up over
time where it's like, oh, hey,Joe's outdoor store, guess what?
(30:55):
We're opening the, whateverstore, the Viori Atlantis store is
going to be down the streetnext month. So yeah, so sorry, we're
not going to sell you anymore.So you could see some of that sort
of thing, I think happening here.
But they have to be seen ashaving a blueprint for success at
this point, right? I mean, itjust, it's.
(31:15):
It's.
I mean, have they had amisstep in your, in your eyes in
the last 10 years? I mean,they're only 10 years old and they
just kind of continue. I mean,I hear, hear stories about, they're
like, oh yeah, we had ourbooth in the Venture out section
next to Vuori and like atOutdoor retailer in like 2014 or
whatever. Like they were oneof those small up and coming brands
and, and now look at them.
They were super smart becauseso much of, of what happens with
(31:38):
brands in their early stagesthat you're just so desperate for
sales that you'll kind of takeany distribution you can get. Right?
And they were not that at all.They were extremely selective in
terms of the doors they wentin. They were also very smart in
that they did not allow anyoneto sell their brand online. Right.
(31:58):
So even with Moose, when wesold Vioria Moustro stores, we couldn't
sell it on our website, whichtypically we wouldn't do because
we're omnichannel. We're notgoing to have you only in brick and
mortar. But those were therules of the game for them. And it
makes total sense for a brandif you can start at a clean slate
and say, well, let's see, do Iwant to compete online with all of
(32:19):
my distributors, right. Andhave them bid up all my terms on
Google and all these otherplaces and potentially have to worry
about them going on sale anddoing all that kind of crap? No,
I want to just own that brandonline and then use brick and mortar
to get that level of exposureinto the market in other places.
Leverage them for what they'rebest at, which is being those local,
(32:41):
those local stores, thoselocal sources for people. So, you
know, I think they did itright. And then obviously then they
kept full price. They werejust, just kind of like Lululemon
in a lot of ways did as well.It was like, hey, we're, we're just,
we're a full price brand andif you, if you want to be part of
this, you're buying it at fullprice. It's, it's where brands start
(33:01):
to over distribute and thenover discount. That's when the wheels
start to fall off. Off.
So with that in mind, likeoutside of things like tariffs, like
what, what are the risks doyou see going, you know, for them
going forward?
Well, potentially they couldend up actually maybe being over
reliant on D2C which, which,which can be challenging. And if
(33:22):
they do start to pull out of,of specialty, that then creates an
opening for another challengerbrand, sort of similar to what happened
with Nike and on. So I justthink they have to be very, hopefully
they'll be as strategic intheir distribution decisions going
forward in terms of maybewhere they pull out of as they have
(33:42):
been up to this point.
All right, I want to move onto a different topic, but I do want
predictions because this to meis the most glaring thing that I'm
surprised hasn't happened. Andmaybe it's the smartest thing they
haven't done yet. When are wegetting Vuari footwear Tomorrow?
Never.
It's got to be coming.
Are they at apparel brand andthat's it when.
Once Allbirds goes into bankruptcy?
(34:03):
Once they buy Allbirds. Yeah,that would have been my. That's exactly.
Why would they do that though,when they just rather, I mean, I
guess, you know, what are youbuying? You know, they don't have
to do that.
No, they don't. I mean, youlook at, look at Vori is much, much
bigger than all birds, is likeprobably four times the size. So
(34:23):
no, they're not going to allbirds, but I do see, I do see the
Vuori footwear aesthetic beingin that vein. I guess when it does
come out, which will be inthree years, you think three years?
I think so.
It sounds about right. So arewe saying that, hey, Consiglieri,
are we saying that Vuori isthe Michael Corleone and Allbirds
(34:45):
is the Fredo in this conversation?
Sure, yeah. I don't know so well.
Okay, look, you know, part of.They have already dipped their toe,
if you will, into footwear.They did a, you know, a collab with
Clay in 2023 and it was, youknow, very basic, gender neutral,
(35:09):
you know, mostly recycled, ecoconscious kind of kind of positioning,
kind of what you'd expect from that.
What was the like, function ofthe Shoes. It's like an everyday
shoe. Was it like a running shoe?
Just an everyday. No, I know,just a comfortable again, nice looking,
clean, clean, clean sneaker.But so, yeah, so like I said that
(35:30):
that line's been crossed. Sowe'll see where it goes.
I mean, Lulu came out with ashoe finally. Eventually, just someone's
gonna say, all right, guys,it's time. We gotta make, we gotta
make shoes now.
Yeah, no, that's, that'sactually a fair point because that
took a long time in terms ofLulu's scale before they went into
footwear. I'm not sure if Iwould get into footwear if I were
them. The landscape isobviously scattered with the bones
(35:54):
of brands that have tried tomake that leap, so we'll see.
It does seem like there are alot more smaller niche footwear brands
or something we need to talkabout. I think on the pod soon. But
yes, I agree with you on theflip side of the athletic coin. Now
we have Under Armour, who isin the news this week according to
sgb, for still trying to rightthe ship, so to speak. So per that
(36:15):
article, which came out outafter Under Armour's Q1 results were
down year over year, CEO KevinPlank said the brand is, quote, executing
a phased plan to rebuild brandloyalty, improve revenue quality
and lay the groundwork forsustainable growth. End quote. Plank
also added that he believesthe brand is regaining cultural relevance
in the US by shifting theirfocus away from gym based activities
(36:36):
and focusing back on teamsports, particularly American football,
which was instrumental intotheir initial growth and rise. You
know, by no means is UnderArmour not relevant. They are a billion
dollar activewear brand, but.And you compare them to the ascendant
brand they were 10 years ago,I think it's fair to ask some questions.
So my first question is, hasVuori sort of market corrected Under
(36:56):
Armour? Right. So Vorilaunches 10 years ago and is currently
on the path that we allthought Under Armour would probably
be on now, or still be onanyway. But instead it feels like
they've run into roadblocksalong the way.
I don't buy that Vuori is thereason why Under Armour hasn't continued
to grow. Under Armour is thereason why Under Armour hasn't continued
to grow. They've. They'vescrewed the pooch fairly well here
(37:18):
just in terms of doing all ofthe opposite things that we talked
about. Not being strategic interms of their distribution decisions,
having their DTC be all aboutdiscounting and promotion, not being
strategic in terms of who cansell their brand online and Having
it be all over everywhere andthen just chasing the top line, expanding
(37:39):
into every single categoryunder the sun. Like their outerwear
collection and hunting. Theyjust lost the script quite frankly.
And whereas Vuori has beenvori also, I would say they're different.
Different going afterdifferent customers, different segments,
etc.
It's not a one for one, but Isort of look at the things you just
described or it seemed to besome of the things that Fiori has
(37:59):
done well. So if it's justyou're, if you're like a buyer or
even just a consumer andyou're kind of looking at these two
brands and like Under Armoursis like cruising along, chugging
along. Like when I was AtPolar Tech 10 years ago they were,
oh, they're going to be, it'sgoing to be Adidas, Nike and Under
Armour. Right then that wasthat all weird. They had conquered
the us, the world was next.And now it seems that Vuor just sort
(38:19):
of has taken that place. A lotof it's self inflicted wounds to
your point from Under Armourscreated that. But I do wonder, that's
an interesting sliding doorsmoment. If you know Vuoria now did
that open up the door forVuori to kind of become what it is?
I think it's just more ofUnder Armour just didn't adapt or
meet the athleisure trend atall. I mean Nike has the same customer
(38:41):
base that Under Armour and hasmoved into the that very well and
that just goes into kind ofthe DNA of the different brands.
Right. And how they're able tobring artistry and a little bit of
subtlety to aesthetics anddesign and trend. And you know, like,
like you said, Under Armourgot kind of over their skis into
a lot of things and returningback to football is definitely going
(39:03):
back to home base. Personally,I don't think gym sports are necessarily
that different from teamsports in a, in an overall sense
and vibe. So that to me is alittle bit of most mushy, mushy side.
But you can, you can be in thegym and be, you know, be a football
brand or be a team sport brandat the same time. So I, I think missing
that trend. Like you said,again, they've had inventory issues
(39:23):
going back for years. As, asrecently as 2023 they had a billion
dollars of $1.2 billion ininventory sitting there. So like
just getting the house inorder, you know, you mentioned hunting
which you know, maybe wererelatable to the outdoor. That was
a billion dollar category. Youknow, 10 years ago. I mean, so it's
like they were doingsomething. Right.
(39:44):
Yeah.
And just missed out onconsolidating that or taking it forward.
I mean, they definitely,again, they do seem like every. Every
few years they have anunforced error that kind of takes
them off their stride.
I wonder if the moment haspassed them by. Right. We. We always
described Under Armour as a.As a gir brand. Right. Just like
(40:06):
that was kind of like theirwhole thing. It's like, you know,
coming out of the gate, likethe protect this house, like very
masculine and big, bulking,hulking dude kind of brand. I wonder
if that cultural moment haspassed them by. And then you also,
given that they kind of. Youhave these other challenges they're
trying to overcome, you know,that's maybe not as acceptable, largely
speaking, among the populace.And then also you have brands like
(40:26):
A View, Ari or maybe evenothers kind of. Or even Lululemon
to kind of step in and fill inthe opportunities that were there
for Under Armour back in the day.
I think what you missed,Colin, though, is that misogyny is
actually. Actually is back.We, you know, that's Right, right.
It's timeless.
Yeah, exactly. We've got our misogynist.
You're not misogynisticenough, Colin.
Yeah. So, I mean, maybe. Maybeit's. It's. It's back to strip clubs
(40:50):
for. For Under Armour, youknow, and, yeah, those days are coming
back. Right, because it's agood point. Yeah, I potentially,
I think it's. It's aninteresting thought from a brand
perspective. Did Under Armourlose that sort of gur edge trying
(41:11):
to chase the changing tides ofculture around masculinity and this
whole concept of toxicmasculinity, which I hate that term.
I think it should be banned.But anyway, did they feel like, oh,
we can't be ourselves, sowe're going to try to be something
else? And then they becamenothing, really.
I don't even know if they gotthat far in it. Again, I think the
(41:33):
athleisure side is really atrend in aesthetic, specifically
for maybe the women's businessthat they could have brought into
it. But their branding hasnever been to the point of a Nike
or even Adidas. It's alwayshad a little bit of little brotherism
to it. It doesn't have thesame kind of soul. Now some of that
(41:54):
work has changed. Like thestuff that they're bringing back,
they did a video piece with. Ithink it was. It's Jackson State,
one of the historically blackcolleges that won the national title
Last year. Really emotionalpiece to it. Some of their branding
work is starting to get tothat. But I just think before it
just kind of missed and that'sgoing back a while where they just,
(42:18):
they kind of lost the emotion.And so I actually think that a gur
brand is actually a great ideain the sense of where everything
is going and creating adifference and one that actually
goes to their heritage. Itdoesn't mean you have to pick up
all the stupid tropes that youknow that existed in terms of misogynistic
culture and still havestrength and power and leadership.
(42:41):
Look at the, at the end of theday, we're an alpha based country.
We reward sports and brandsthat take the lead and show by example.
And that is to me that is anopportunity for them to get their
place back.
Frankly, a women, a femaleledger campaign would be really interesting
and they've done some of that.
Nike just did that very well.Well, right. And so I just, I think
(43:04):
there's a place for thatacross the board for all of their,
all their categories. But yougot to get out of the price point.
Well, right.
You got to get out of the techbusiness. All those stupid apps that
they bought up and all thatkind of stuff. It's just like get
back to making great lookingproduct, be on trend and build me
something I can want toassociate with, with an emotion.
Right. I mean part of this isvery, a very podcasty conversation,
(43:25):
right. Because 10 years agothat we just saw them as the, the,
the next big brand. Maybe theytake down a Nike or an Adidas and
it definitely be one of the,the third one version of those. And
then also we, we were dealing,working with them a lot on the outdoor
side. They really hadaspirations to be a, to sit next
to a Patagonia or a NorthFace. They really wanted that outdoor
business and they was allsitting there. Then they launched
(43:46):
down Reebok. Oh, who hasn't atthis point?
Actually not that many.
No, I know that's true.
Right. I mean they were, thatwas part of the big three. They definitely
really sharpen their elbowsand got themselves in. No doubt about
it.
But if you look at them now,the opportunity is still there. But
it is just kind of interestingwhat they're trying to do and it
probably is a brand going backto that sort of roots of football.
(44:09):
I would like to lead them withheart, heart on, wear it on their
sleeve. Be emotional and be strong.
I think it's smart going backto that football vibe. Protect this
house, you know, just aboutsolidity and something you can rely
on, you know, being that. Thatcore and having that core to, to
drive the brand. I, I thinkthat's the, the right move.
Well, I mean. Oh, and you dohave better notes. Like, they are
(44:31):
still a $6 billion brand. Sothey're still, you know, they're
still kind of out there.
They're still, I mean, yes,they've had some hard times obviously,
over the last. I don't knowwhat they peaked at. Maybe more like
eight. But yeah, they're stilla player and still a key partner
for Dick's Sporting Goods asan example. So. Yeah, I certainly
wouldn't write them off. Yeah.
No, no. Their merit if seemsto be about, well, you know, SEC
(44:54):
finds inventory managementcarousel. I mean, really, that's
not.
And then now they're going todeal with the whole tariff situation
on top of all solving thoseproblems, too.
That's right. That's not whatyou want. Yeah. As your. Is your
main business narrative. Sosomething that can get away from
that would certainly be helpful.
It's time for a body shot.
(45:16):
All right. Time for theparting shot. And Owen had to peel
off. So it's just Dave herewith me for the parting shot. But
first of all, Dave, I justwant to say I love it when the world
gets caught up to kind ofobvious things. Right. So last week,
FrontOfficesports.com ran astory about the moment that Rice
Krispie treats are having withendurance athletes, particularly
at this summer's Tour deFrance. Apparently, a single prepackaged
(45:38):
Rice Krispie treat can deliverthe sugar and carbs that many endurance
athletes consume when they areparticipating in their events. And
it's also a little more tasty.Tasty, you know, than maybe some
of the other things they haveat their disposal.
And a lot cheaper and cheaper sports.
Speaking of cheaper sports,nutrition has grown a ton over the
past two decades. Andaccording to that front office sports
article, gels alone are ontrack to be a billion dollar category
(46:00):
by 2034, which is a lot of $2sugar packets. Now, the funny thing
is that the point of thatwhole category being gels and what
is being shown by the RiceKrispie treat boom is that the point
point is to get the right kindof calories into your body. Right?
So gels were invented for easeof consumption and easy digestion,
not because the sugar in a gooworks any better than the sugar in
(46:22):
a handful of candy. So muchlike people who think you simply
can't hike unless you have aspecific shirt or jacket procured
at an outdoor gear Shop. Thereare still those who believe that
you shouldn't get on your bikewithout your sports branded drink
or gummy treats or whatever.So sustainability, Sustainability
is the key driver, rightbehind the we make too much stuff
mantra of the outdoor industryfor sure. But a close second to sustainability
(46:44):
is the better mousetrap tosolutions. We probably already have
hanging in our closet or on.In our shelf. On a shelf in our pantry.
So if you're an elite athletewho is paid to perform athletically,
that's one thing. Figure itout. Go use all the sciencey shit
you got. But if you'retraining for that local half marathon,
the Rice Krispie treat, or aminiature three musketeers from last
Halloween or the peanut buttersandwich that you had have will suit
(47:07):
you just fine. It's reallypretty simple, folks. Don't overthink
going outside. You'll figureit out. That's my parting shot.
Are you saying that a cotton Tshirt might be okay? You know what
you're saying?
I think that's what I'm saying.
Maybe so, though. I do. Icould. I can't see. The next big
boom could be crispy kills.
You have to wear yoursynthetic shirt.
(47:29):
That's right.
With your jones, you can'thave your crispy kills. We might
be litigating cotton kills atsome point in the future.
That's right. I think weshould. I'm bringing crispy treats
to that.
Oh, we should eat them there.
Oh, yeah.
All right. That's the show fortoday. We want your emails. Send
them to myrockfightmail.comthe Rock Fight's a production of
Rock Fight LLC. Today'sepisode produced by producer Dave
(47:53):
Art direction provided bySarah Genser. For the now departed
Owen Comerford, I'm ColinTruth. Thanks for listening. And
here to take us out onceagain, Chris Demaicz with the Rock
Fight Fight song. He nevergets sick of playing it and you never
get sick of listening to it.We'll see you next time. Rock fighters.
(48:17):
Welcome to the Rock Fightwhere we speak our truth Slay sacred
cows and sometimes agree todisagree. We talk about about human
powered outdoor activities andbig bites about topics that we find
interesting like pop culturemusic, the latest movie reviews,
(48:38):
ideas that aim for the head.This is where we speak our truth.
This is where we speak ourtruth. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock
fight. Welcome to the RockFight. Rock fight. Rock fight Fight.
Welcome to the rock light Rocklight Rock fight. Rock light Rock
(48:59):
light Rock fight. Welcome tothe Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock
fight. Rock fight.
In the store aisles, a quietrevolution is happening with Endeavor.
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Let's see how. He didn't knowwhich brand he wanted, just that
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Welcome to the Rock Fight,where we speak our truth, slay sacred
cows, and sometimes agree todisagree. This is an outdoor podcast
(01:49):
that aims for the head. I'mColin True, and joining me today,
just like they do every Mondayhere on the Rock Fight, the outdoor
industry insider andconsigliere to the Rock Fight, Owen
Comerford and brand andcreative expert producer Dave, AKA
the Monday boys.
Hey, there it is. All right.We need to actually get a. You know,
an actual sound.
(02:10):
Oh, I like when you do it.
Okay, fine. I'm gonna charge extra.
That.
That's it? I mean, I. Oh,that's a good idea.
Actually. Yeah, that's not inyour original contract.
Yeah, those have been free upto now, but yeah, those are gonna
cost you.
I don't know if you are awarecause it's on a text thread, Owen.
But Shantae Salibar had somenotes about your 90s band's preferences
(02:32):
after listening to last week's EP.
Whoa, I missed that on thetext string. Really? It's been a
busy day. Okay. She didn't.
She took particular exceptionto Sublime being referenced.
What?
Yeah. Really?
Yeah. Oh, okay. It's no longerPC in the current.
(02:52):
World, I think it'd be morebecause his son took over. Bradley
Null's son is the lead singerof Sublime now, which is kind of
a cool story.
There were so many otherbands. I mean, I could go on, on
all the bands that you guysmissed, but, you know, those are
just some that. Those are justsome that came to mind. At least
you called out Matthew's SweetGirlfriend as a classic. One of the
best.
(03:12):
I'm 100%, too. Today, we'regoing to get into some industry headlines,
but first, some programmingreminders. Tomorrow, Doug Schnitzman
opens the container like healways does on Tuesday. His guest
this week is CatherineAndrews, the director of Arkansas's
Office of Outdoor Recreation.So make sure you're listening to
Open Container and check thatout. Also, come back to the Rock
Fight this Wednesday, whereI'll be joined by the aforementioned
(03:34):
Sublime hater Shantae Salibarto check out the latest headlines
that come out of the outdooradventure community. And hey, Dave.
Producer Dave, how can ourlisteners get a little bit more from
the Rock Fight? If they, ifthey would like to.
Call in so many ways, I wouldrecommend subscribing to our newsletter
News from the front. Head overto Rock Fight Co and sign up. And
(03:55):
it's all right there in frontof you. And it's pink and black and
colorful glory and.
Oh, and if our listeners wantto reach out to us, what should they
do?
Well, of course, they canalways email us@myrockfightmail.com
apparently somebody hadrockfightmail.com okay, anyway, myrockfightmail.com,
probably the same asshole thatowns rockfight.com probably. Son
(04:18):
of a bitch. Anyway, becausewe're rockfight co. All right. But
you can also obviously hit usup on LinkedIn. Just search on Rock
Fight there to find our pageor on Instagram where we are Rock
Fight Co. And just followalong for all of the excitement.
You can even send us a dm andI'm sure somebody will read it or
(04:39):
maybe get back to you.
I'll read it.
Oh, oh. Colin will read it.There we go.
I'll read it and then I'llheart it. Unless you're being mean
and then I won't.
Oh, okay.
Send you to our Discord serverand our Snapchat.
Yes. All of which are realthings. Okay. The opening shot on
today's episode of the RockFight is presented by Lem's shoes.
As the summer season wraps up,now's a great time to get ready for
(05:02):
fall with Lem's guys Allright. From easygoing slip ons and
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Lem's shoes and boots.
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(05:22):
Oh yeah.
What? Oh yeah, I thought wegot you some of those.
You got. I think we got methe, the sandals but.
Sandals.
I'm not a sandals person so we're.
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sure to stay tuned. But in themeantime, head to lemshoes.com right
now to get your feet into thebest fitting shoe you've ever worn.
And today guys, we're startingwhere we've been a lot lately. We're
talking about running. Nowthis isn't a full on edition of Tariff
Watch 2025, but there weresome stories that come out of the
past week from the runningworld that puts us on Tariff Watch's
(06:03):
corner because I want toexplore the run world, particularly
the brand on running and howthey might, it may be, it might be
a little tariff proof. Solet's get into this here with some
news about on running perretail dive.com on second quarter
sales were up 32% year overyear and the brand raised its full
year outlook to 31% growthafter previously saying they thought
they would grow to be 28% inregards to tariffs on seems to be
(06:27):
non plussed when it comes tothe topic that is driving a lot of
the conversations we're havingon this show recently. CEO/CFO apparently
Martin Hoffman over therewears both hats and he was quoted
as saying, quote, we have noteven spoken to retail or factory
partners about mitigationefforts. We haven't needed to, end
quote. So Owen, does that readto you as hubris, confidence? Maybe
(06:50):
a little of both.
Maybe a little bit of both.I'm sure there are some executives
out there that are thinkingwhat a fucking dickhead.
You know, we just don't needto. I can't do a Swiss accent. I
don't know.
I don't need to. Whatever.Yeah, but it comes from the fact
that they're really seeingtheir demand at strip supply and
(07:12):
I thought it was reallyinteresting that actually their D2C
sales were quite a bit. Thegrowth was even much, much higher
in D2C, it was like over 40%growth in D2C whereas wholesale was
like mid twenties in growth.Right. Which tells me that basically
the wholesale didn't buyenough. They sold out. And so everyone
went to D2C because their D2Cis a full price DTC, they're not
(07:34):
driving their D2C sales withdiscounts. So people are coming to
them because they can't get itat wholesale. And it's this great
virtuous cycle of demandoutstripping supply. And so you can
really kind of do what youwant there and potentially just hey,
if we're going to hit withtariffs, we'll just raise our prices
(07:55):
a little bit, you know,because we're not worried about demand
elasticity with priceincreases because we're selling everything
we can make. So it's a greatplace to be. You're not always going
to be there as a brandtypically, but yeah, good for them.
Apart from tariffs, you know,we talk a lot about the European
brands who are eyeballingcoming into the US and expanding
(08:16):
into this territory here. But.And as a European brand, you know,
ON does seem to be doingthings differently. They're finding
success here when other brandsare struggling to get traction. Like
what do you think thatdifference is? What are they doing
differently?
Well, first the thing thatjumped out at me is the fact that
they're America. So they're aEuropean based brand out of Switzerland,
I believe. Typically whatyou'd see is that brands are biggest
(08:42):
in their home markets and theEuropean market is generally speaking
about the same size as theNorth American market. So you'd have
thought Europe would be atleast slightly bigger than North
America. Not so for an.Actually America is I think two or
three times bigger thanEurope. So they've really not just
been successful here. This istheir main market. And I think there's
(09:06):
a few reasons for that. One isNike's retreat from wholesale really
opened the door for. For ONand other challenger brands. Quite
frankly, ON also reallybenefited from having a distinct
visual tech approach becauseof their soul and the whole things
that are there. Right. Whichreally stood out as being very different
(09:26):
for customers, especiallyyounger customers who didn't want
to be seen wearing theirmother's or father's Nikes. Right.
And so they said they'vereally embraced the brand. This is
cool and different and fun.Okay. All this came at the same time
that Covid was booming. Sotheir timing was just perfect. Really
(09:47):
Through. No, not, not. Theywere just, you know, good timing.
And then finally they'vereally understood the importance
of top of the funnelmarketing. Rather than just come
over here, sell in atwholesale and hope things happen,
they came in, had some initialtraction and then really started
to invest on top of the funnelto where now I think getting Zendaya
(10:08):
as an example, as a brandambassador, rather than just the
tired, oh, let's figure outwhat athlete hasn't signed with Nike
or ID DASA yet and get thesecond tier athlete. No, we're going
to go first tier superstar andyou know, just really break the playbook
for athletic brands. Sothey've just made so many great moves
(10:28):
in this market, I think so.
As you know, it's Zendaya justfor futures. I want you to get in
trouble with the youth in yourfamily, in your life. You know.
We made the consigular speechless.
Had to do it.
Zendaya, he said, yeah, ledyou down the path, he lets you go
there.
Well, you are making reallygood points. I also didn't want you
(10:50):
to, you know.
True. Yeah. No, I mean, if we,if we can't be accurate on this podcast,
what are we?
I seriously, this is theproven to be the most 100% accurate
podcast of all time.
I believe this is not a guarantee.
Dave, what do you like, what'sgoing on over on running from a brand
perspective?
I think he hit all of that. Imean, brand perspective, right? I
mean first the visual tech,it's a clean look, so that's always
(11:11):
going to be popular. It'salways going to have a hit and they
do it well. I think the, likeyou said, the top of the funnel,
the Zendaya, it's not just thefact that they signed an A list celebrity
and a very generational one. Ithink they're using her really well.
I think the. Honestly, whenyou're, when you're Swiss and you're
(11:33):
clean tech, the inclination isto be very structured and very linear
about your communication andeverything must look in that way.
And they did a lot of that atthe beginnings, for sure. But I would
say the stuff that they'redoing now, it has heart.
Right?
There's just, there is a soulto that and there's a. And that's
just a little different thanwhat you expect. And again, that's,
(11:55):
you know, that's the Nikeplaybook. Right. They've been always
very good at bringing out somekind of heart or soul in the athletes
that they bring to theircommunication. And I think that they've
done that but they're alsousing kind of a future tech kind
of wrapping around that. So Ithink it does help that at the same
time they are hitting the corepieces of this. I mean it's on running
(12:16):
right that they are lean into that.
It's in the name.
And again I'll go anecdotallybut they opened their, their concept
store here in Portland not toolong ago and a kind of a trendy spot
kind of place you'd expect itto be. But I'll tell you a couple
times a week, once a week thatrun club that they have in the evening
there's 30, 40 people out infront of that store and they'll you
(12:39):
know, probably a mile or so tothe trail and then back again. So
they're getting good peoplecoming out to it regularly. It's
always going on. And so to methat's just to get another sense
that they're also resonatingwith the core user that they need
to not just as they blow upand go go outward. So I just, I think
the two things going togetherare in their favor for sure. And
get clean aesthetic. You justcan't. You have a nice looking product
(13:01):
that goes with everything.
There you go.
Yeah. The Zendaya of it all isreally interesting. Anytime like
one of their either spots orit doesn't add or something pops
up with her in it, I alwayslike wait, it takes me back. I'm
like oh yeah, that's right, Iforgot that she's in these. It doesn't,
it's not what you expect.
In an athletic and you knowthey're also doing again you take
a go away from the running.The way they've used Federer to get
into tennis though he's notlonger playing and they've now signed
(13:25):
some, you know they're makinga definite move into court sports
like in not, not holding backfrom that. And you know tennis doesn't
have the populationparticipation but it's on tv, it's
on clips. It's definitely it,it marks you as a serious contender
to a multi sport athleticbrand. You know, not just a single,
a single channel.
So they're going after thatsweet sweet pickleball money.
(13:47):
Sweet sweet pickleball clubsports man. That's a, it's a way
to keep your, your brandpremium. You still play in performance
and it's also, it's in a greatextension if your clean running is
kind of where you come from. Awhite court shoe, you know that that's
just the other side of theequation in terms of product that
goes with lots of people's outfits.
(14:07):
The interesting thing for mefrom the outdoor perspective is for
all of the running brands thatwe try to pretend are outdoor brands
and sell in outdoor stores.It's the biggest stretch in my mind
because they really don't havemuch of a, of a trail running background.
Even their tech. Right. Thisbig open cell thing doesn't work
(14:32):
for trail running. Right.Because you get gravel and shit in
there, it's a disaster. Sothey've created versions obviously
that don't have that tech, butit's sort of anti the overall brand
altogether. But it just doesshow that, hey, within the outdoor
industry, if we can sell it toour customers, we're going to sell
it even if it isn't really outdoorsy.
Right, right.
It's outside. And I just, I dowant to point out to all those that
(14:53):
did not vote for my that ON isa power player here. So shame on
you all.
Looking at your fourth placefinish, Dave.
I don't know if that's what I mean.
I think there's a lot ofmiscalculation here. Who's laughing
now?
Shantae?
Shantae.
(15:13):
Well, let's talk about runningin general. Right, so last week we
talked about Altra and Sauconyhaving big quarters. A few weeks
back we talked about HOKAbeing up again. And in addition to
ON's earnings this past week,Brooks also reported a big Q2. So
per SGB, Brooks set an alltime quarterly revenue high for Q2,
achieving quote double digitgrowth in every region and channel
and expanding global revenueby 19% year over year. So Owen, I
(15:37):
know we keep saying the worstis yet to come when it comes to tariffs,
but is running the bestposition category to deal with tariffs?
Because between all thesefacts and figures and the surge in
brands bringing new trailrunning lines to market, I kind of
wonder if we're going to beeating crow next year when it comes
to running. Just got to keepon chugging along even in the face
of all this uncertainty.
Well, running is not theoutdoor industry. I would say that
(15:59):
from the outset. So I thinkwe're talking more about where the
outdoor industry is going tobe maybe in six, eight months. But
yes, running as a category isreally quite well positioned just
because it's in a period ofgrowing demand, whereas the outdoor
category is flat to downsingle digits over the last number
of years. So yeah, it's wellpositioned. I think the other thing
(16:21):
that's really helped runningas it deals with tariffs and other
Things is actually the supershoe of it all. And what I mean by
that is super shoes have sortof changed the price anchor around
running shoes to be muchhigher than they used to be. You
know, if you said to somebody,whatever, five years ago, oh, yeah,
there's going to be a ton of$300 shoes out on the market, and
(16:43):
they'll all actually beselling, you know, at some volume.
People said, are you fuckingcrazy? No way. No way that would
ever happen.
No one would ever accept that price.
Yeah, I mean, maybe like forsome ultra, ultra people who are
just. But no people are outthere buying super shoes to run in
their half marathon in a 5K. Imean, it's a little insane, but obviously
(17:07):
not a ton of people are buyingsuper shoes. But it's just changed
the price anchor or the priceperception to where it used to be.
$120, I mean, I felt like, wasa relatively expensive athletic shoe.
Now it's 150, 160. And sothere does seem to be a little bit
more pot for upward movementon price in this category, which
(17:29):
obviously helps in the face oftariffs and price increases than
in the wider outdoor space.
Yeah, I was just back toschool shopping with my kids yesterday
at the Nike store with my onedaughter, getting a pair of Nike
Pegasus Zooms. And as much aswe talk about this, it was 145 bucks,
which was maybe one of thecheapest running shoes on the wall.
And I still had a moment justmy old brain being like, oh, these
(17:49):
will be like a buck 20. Andthen I'm like, oh, yeah, that's right.
This is what it costs forrunning shoes now. So, Dave, is there
anything that can be takenfrom the broader running brand, categorically
speaking, like the brand ofrunning that can sort of be applied
by runners, by others here?
Well, let's take our outdoorlens. You know, what goes up must
come down.
I mean, look, running is a bigpart of outdoor, and you go to shops
(18:10):
that are running shoes.
It's just, look, you know, ifanything, if a trend, if a fad moves
to a trend, you know, we're.It will soften at some point. You
know, I guess that adage aboutcoming down is only true except for
prices. Right? Prices aregoing to keep going up. But right
now it does seem like runningis a little impervious to this, and
(18:30):
it's just gaining more andmore traction and wider followers.
You know, look, it's a. It's agateway activity to the outdoors.
Right? I mean, in terms ofjust even getting outside and doing
something. We talk about thatas the outdoor shifting. Of course
that's going to be a, animportant piece to that. So I just,
you know, like I said, lookingfor the horizon. What's, where's
(18:51):
it going? I don't know howhigh it's going to get, but at some
point it will come back down.
As you talked about in thispod, it has been driven more by trend
and fashion. People wanting towear those shoes and they're very
comfortable. Right. And sothat makes a ton of sense. But really
the hiking boot of the 10years ago was also driven by trend.
(19:12):
People liked the chunky bootlook of things, the Timberlands,
et cetera. So those thingscould still happen. Right? I mean,
Timberland was a streetwearthing and then now streetwear is
much more of a sneakerculture. But Colin, you even shared
a YouTube video with us thisweek. And in that video, the guy
there who was obviously veryhooked into the streetwear of it
(19:32):
all, was saying, now maybestreetwear is moving a little bit
beyond sneaker culture andgetting into things like loafers
as an example. Hopefully notspeed loafers.
The Snofer snower is acategory now.
There you go. But loafers andthen also even more sort of classically
styled products and then someof the more outdoorsy running aspects.
(19:56):
So are we going to see runningas a trend from a fashion perspective,
morph more into trail running,so taking more of an outdoorsy vibe
to that same running shoe. Andtrail running takes off not because
more people are running on atrail, just because the trail running
of it is a cooler look thanthe non trail running of it.
Right.
(20:17):
If you even go just evenhigher in terms of just mass styles
look, there's going to be asneaker moment, there's going to
be a boot moment, there'sgoing to be a brown shoe moment in
this larger sense. Andobviously brands and categories fit
within those, but they justebbs and flow. So if sneaker or you
know, running and sneakershave been dominant for so long, boots
(20:37):
are going to find their wayback and become the dom. And when
that happens, then maybethey'll come back down to lower,
lower to the ground. I mean,we haven't talked about barefoot,
not the kind of super end ofthe spectrum to that, but just its
just its influence on overall styles.
Yeah, the foot health functionkind aspect of that category.
The trainers, I mean just theclassic trainer are just tend to
(21:00):
be flat. You know, vans hasbeen down while, you know, at some
point that's going to comeback, you know, that's a version
of sneaker, if you will. So Ijust, I think you're just kind of
looking to see whichtraditional large segment will kind
of come up and down and, andit'll move a lot of categories with
it.
I, I can confirm that as thegaze from one of my 14 year olds
(21:22):
yesterday looking at the vanstore at the Grove in la just would
have set it on fire if itcould. Like vans like, not into it
at all. Like, that was like.Yeah, tough times for vans with the
kids.
Yeah.
That just means they're aboutto come back is what that means.
The war, another couple years.
The war is back. Everythingwill be fine. Don't worry about it.
Yep, yep. Exactly.
(21:44):
Lightning round.
All right, it's time for therock fight. Lightning round. Are
you guys ready?
All right.
So ready.
All right, first up, lastweek, Gildan Activewear announced
a proposed acquisition ofHanes brand for $2.2 billion, with
Gildan president Glenn Shamitysaying the big upside of the deal
is expanding Hanes inactivewear. Oh, and I'm gonna give
(22:07):
you two choices. You pick themost likely outcome. Does an expansion
by Hanes and activewear lookmore like a Vuari competitor or being
the dominant active casualbrand at Kohl's?
Well, obviously Kohl's is theobvious answer here. You know, Gildan
is being viewed as activewear.Well, I mean, it's teasing hoodies.
Okay. Is that activewear? Iguess it's activewear. Yeah, sure.
(22:29):
It's really more loungewearmore than anything else. Yes. They've
got some performance pieces inthere, but it's really, it's really
pretty casual stuff. So myfavorite, actually part of that press
release is how they keptcalling Hanes an innerwear brand.
I, I, I, I. Had you heard thatbefore? I had never heard.
I think we're missing out andI feel like we're not doing our job
(22:50):
if we don't know if there'sthe three of us don't know what Inner.
I've not heard of inner.
Innerwear because I've heardof an adwear brand, obviously.
Is that like an Innie or anAudi with your belly button?
Yeah. Right. So, yeah. Is it.You have clothing for your stomach.
Next up, last week, Merrell,who, like other footwear brands we
just talked about, hadthemselves at Gray Q2, laid claim
to, quote, modernizing thetrail. Wolverine's CEO Chris Hufnagle
(23:13):
said that Merrell's, quote,faster, lighter, more athletic product
offerings continue to fuelmomentum and drive significant, significant
share gains in the hikingcategory. End quote. Dave, we said
that hiking is ripe as acategory to be elevated. But between
these and between thesecomments by Huffnagel and Shantae
winning our top outdoor branddraft with Merrill on her team. Do
you think Merrill is alreadysetting the tone for hiking as a
(23:35):
category?
I'm still thinking about theGildan and Hanes acquisition. I think
that is the largest unbrandedacquisition I've ever heard of. Right.
I mean, or not heard of of.
Or don't care about the non brand.
Yeah, right.
2.2 billion non brand.
2.2 billion non branded discussion.
Come on. Hanes is definitely abrand. I, I, I, I agree that Gildan
(23:58):
is, is sort of the, a hiddenbrand, but Hanes is a brand. But
it's known for its inner wearthough. Let's, let's be clear.
Right? And in the 80s they hadcommercials right along with McDonald's.
Yeah, no, no doubt, no doubt.
I'm gonna just formallyapologize to Merrill. Cause I really
tried to throw them up bonethis week and like, you know, and
then we just went where wenormally went with them.
(24:19):
Well, hey, I'll throw him abone. I thought it was really interesting.
They actually announced thatthey are establishing a junior board
within the company. So they'retaking key younger members of the
Wolverine worldwideorganization, you know, whether they
be in design or digitalmarketing or whatever. And they're
creating this junior boardthat's I guess advising the real
(24:43):
board on like oh no, this ishow the world actually works today
and not what a bunch of 60somethings think.
Are they translating memes?No, no, that's not what they really
meant.
No, no gens they meet on TikToks.
I love that idea. I thinkthat's actually awesome. And not
(25:05):
only does it, it kind of helpyou identify talent, but it really
does at least get some kind ofstructured way to get a, a truly
relevant perspective to bubbleup. No, no doubt. I don't think you
have to be the 60 year oldboard member either to benefit from
that. I think that the kind ofthose discussions and what that comes
out of it could be really,really helpful.
(25:26):
All right. Finally today we'reon Pickleball Corner as Pickle Rage
expanded their indoorpickleball. You have to say it that
way. You can't just say PickleRage. You have to say Pickle Rage
expanded their indoorpickleball facilities last week by
opening a new franchiselocation in New Jersey. For both
of you. When playing at PickleRage, where do you think the rage
comes in when you're out thereplaying pickleball. Where does the
(25:47):
rage manifest itself?
The neighbors, the people thatlive next to these facilities are
rage filled over the constantclacking sound. So I think there's
plenty of rage, Colin.
I think the rage, the ragecomes from losing to oxygen. Veterinarians,
you know, you're out there,you think you're pretty hot stuff.
You're, you know, you're a GenX, you're in your, your 50s, say,
(26:09):
and then, yeah, gramps, grampsand grandma come over and just kick
your ass. Yeah, it's just notgood, that, that. And also apparently
all you're allowed to drink isMC Ultra, which I just.
Exclusive partnership withMick Ultra.
I cannot do that.
Who drinks? The people.Someone must be drinking. Miggle.
They keep advertising it. Ithink they just made a bunch. They
(26:31):
can't sell it. They're justgoing to like keep advertising until
it's finally gone.
Go drink it, apparently.
I think it's got a sales leadership.
Yeah, it probably does. Yeah.It's people that actually don't.
Not only do they not havetaste, they just don't want taste.
Right. They're wearing theirinnerwear and they want a beer to
go with it.
(26:51):
Right, Exactly. Hanging out intheir gilding teas, just drinking
in the culture.
Today's main event on the RockFight is presented by Oboz, who wants
to share their love of hiking.And we want to help them by uncovering
all the different reasons welove to take the long walk, including
the following reasons. Numberone, you can drink instant coffee
while you're out there andpretend it's artisanal because you
(27:13):
know, it's like, wow, you'redrinking coffee and you. Right.
It's true.
Okay.
Number two, you get to pointdramatically at peaks and say, that's
where we're headed. Numberthree, you get to judge other hikers
gear choices in the wild,something I am convinced that everyone
on this podcast does. Ofcourse, Dave's just smiling. And
number four, no one will judgeyou poorly if you're out there hiking
(27:34):
in a pair of obo's highite midwaterproof boots. Obo's highlight
is rooted in the spirit of OBOof Highlight Canyon. Designed for
lasting comfort and made withrecycled and biobased materials,
the Highlight collection isdesigned to support your stride,
whether that's out on rockyswitchbacks or wandering closer to
home. And this hikingappreciation moment is brought to
you by obo's of Bozeman,Montana, the maker of premium quality
(27:56):
footwear for the trail and thecupid to the Outdoor world, Oboz
love hiking.
And I just want to justapologize to Michelob Ultra. While
I am not a connoisseur of yourbeer, evidently they actually have
the highest market share inthe country of 18.7% draft of shares
(28:18):
of draft and they are thenumber 2 total sale size beer next
to Modelo. So that's. Yes. Soclearly pickleballers drink.
As if we didn't need anothersign that this country is headed
in the wrong direction. Oh my God.
Nick on draft sounds terrible.Like just I guess I'm gonna hand
(28:41):
me a cold bottle of it. Imight drink it or something. But.
Well, look, it's the finest ofwhat air and water can do.
It's. It's very hydrating, youknow, which is important. It's important.
It's important to hydrate.
So Y man number two bestselling beer in the US Yep, there
you go.
These are the days we'reliving in, boys. Okay, so per SGB,
(29:04):
last week Vuari celebrated its10 year anniversary by opening its
100th store, beating its goalof 100 retail locations by a full
year. They were targeting tothat for 2026. Vori also recently
opened flagship locations inLondon and Shanghai. And this fall
we'll be opening stores inBeijing. In Seoul, a quote from the
company stated, after garningwidespread attention and loyalty
(29:24):
from consumers in the UnitedStates, the brand has strategically
expanded its globalomnichannel presence, now serving
customers across close to 30countries through a growing network
of brick and mortar locationsand a robust network of distributors.
Because it's only been 10years since they have arrived on
the scene, the industrydiscourse or narrative I feel like
is largely negative stilltowards Vuari on the from, from the
(29:47):
folks we talk about in thespecialty retail front and these
sort of core outdoor fol, yetall they seem to do is go out and
crush it. They are a GOA brandwho sells to our best outdoor retailers
and they are also activelychanging the landscape of active
apparel globally. So when willthe more noisy voices in the industry
move on from the narrativethat Vuori doesn't really belong
in the outdoor conversation?
I would say probably just intime for Viori to pull out of outdoor
(30:10):
retail. I say that justbecause clearly they're traveling
more down the arc' teryx pathwhere D2C is their main channel and
then they strategically chooseother distribution points that align
with where they want to befrom a customer perspective, from
a pricing perspective, butalso from a location perspective.
(30:32):
So at Moose Jaw we actuallydid. Vuori was our number one brand
in store number one. But weweren't allowed to have Vuori in
every store because like ourBoulder location, we couldn't have
Vuori because guess what? Theyopened a Viori store across the street.
So to what degree are we goingto see more of that show up over
time where it's like, oh, hey,Joe's outdoor store, guess what?
(30:55):
We're opening the, whateverstore, the Viori Atlantis store is
going to be down the streetnext month. So yeah, so sorry, we're
not going to sell you anymore.So you could see some of that sort
of thing, I think happening here.
But they have to be seen ashaving a blueprint for success at
this point, right? I mean, itjust, it's.
(31:15):
It's.
I mean, have they had amisstep in your, in your eyes in
the last 10 years? I mean,they're only 10 years old and they
just kind of continue. I mean,I hear, hear stories about, they're
like, oh yeah, we had ourbooth in the Venture out section
next to Vuori and like atOutdoor retailer in like 2014 or
whatever. Like they were oneof those small up and coming brands
and, and now look at them.
They were super smart becauseso much of, of what happens with
(31:38):
brands in their early stagesthat you're just so desperate for
sales that you'll kind of takeany distribution you can get. Right?
And they were not that at all.They were extremely selective in
terms of the doors they wentin. They were also very smart in
that they did not allow anyoneto sell their brand online. Right.
(31:58):
So even with Moose, when wesold Vioria Moustro stores, we couldn't
sell it on our website, whichtypically we wouldn't do because
we're omnichannel. We're notgoing to have you only in brick and
mortar. But those were therules of the game for them. And it
makes total sense for a brandif you can start at a clean slate
and say, well, let's see, do Iwant to compete online with all of
(32:19):
my distributors, right. Andhave them bid up all my terms on
Google and all these otherplaces and potentially have to worry
about them going on sale anddoing all that kind of crap? No,
I want to just own that brandonline and then use brick and mortar
to get that level of exposureinto the market in other places.
Leverage them for what they'rebest at, which is being those local,
(32:41):
those local stores, thoselocal sources for people. So, you
know, I think they did itright. And then obviously then they
kept full price. They werejust, just kind of like Lululemon
in a lot of ways did as well.It was like, hey, we're, we're just,
we're a full price brand andif you, if you want to be part of
this, you're buying it at fullprice. It's, it's where brands start
(33:01):
to over distribute and thenover discount. That's when the wheels
start to fall off. Off.
So with that in mind, likeoutside of things like tariffs, like
what, what are the risks doyou see going, you know, for them
going forward?
Well, potentially they couldend up actually maybe being over
reliant on D2C which, which,which can be challenging. And if
(33:22):
they do start to pull out of,of specialty, that then creates an
opening for another challengerbrand, sort of similar to what happened
with Nike and on. So I justthink they have to be very, hopefully
they'll be as strategic intheir distribution decisions going
forward in terms of maybewhere they pull out of as they have
(33:42):
been up to this point.
All right, I want to move onto a different topic, but I do want
predictions because this to meis the most glaring thing that I'm
surprised hasn't happened. Andmaybe it's the smartest thing they
haven't done yet. When are wegetting Vuari footwear Tomorrow?
Never.
It's got to be coming.
Are they at apparel brand andthat's it when.
Once Allbirds goes into bankruptcy?
(34:03):
Once they buy Allbirds. Yeah,that would have been my. That's exactly.
Why would they do that though,when they just rather, I mean, I
guess, you know, what are youbuying? You know, they don't have
to do that.
No, they don't. I mean, youlook at, look at Vori is much, much
bigger than all birds, is likeprobably four times the size. So
(34:23):
no, they're not going to allbirds, but I do see, I do see the
Vuori footwear aesthetic beingin that vein. I guess when it does
come out, which will be inthree years, you think three years?
I think so.
It sounds about right. So arewe saying that, hey, Consiglieri,
are we saying that Vuori isthe Michael Corleone and Allbirds
(34:45):
is the Fredo in this conversation?
Sure, yeah. I don't know so well.
Okay, look, you know, part of.They have already dipped their toe,
if you will, into footwear.They did a, you know, a collab with
Clay in 2023 and it was, youknow, very basic, gender neutral,
(35:09):
you know, mostly recycled, ecoconscious kind of kind of positioning,
kind of what you'd expect from that.
What was the like, function ofthe Shoes. It's like an everyday
shoe. Was it like a running shoe?
Just an everyday. No, I know,just a comfortable again, nice looking,
clean, clean, clean sneaker.But so, yeah, so like I said that
(35:30):
that line's been crossed. Sowe'll see where it goes.
I mean, Lulu came out with ashoe finally. Eventually, just someone's
gonna say, all right, guys,it's time. We gotta make, we gotta
make shoes now.
Yeah, no, that's, that'sactually a fair point because that
took a long time in terms ofLulu's scale before they went into
footwear. I'm not sure if Iwould get into footwear if I were
them. The landscape isobviously scattered with the bones
(35:54):
of brands that have tried tomake that leap, so we'll see.
It does seem like there are alot more smaller niche footwear brands
or something we need to talkabout. I think on the pod soon. But
yes, I agree with you on theflip side of the athletic coin. Now
we have Under Armour, who isin the news this week according to
sgb, for still trying to rightthe ship, so to speak. So per that
(36:15):
article, which came out outafter Under Armour's Q1 results were
down year over year, CEO KevinPlank said the brand is, quote, executing
a phased plan to rebuild brandloyalty, improve revenue quality
and lay the groundwork forsustainable growth. End quote. Plank
also added that he believesthe brand is regaining cultural relevance
in the US by shifting theirfocus away from gym based activities
(36:36):
and focusing back on teamsports, particularly American football,
which was instrumental intotheir initial growth and rise. You
know, by no means is UnderArmour not relevant. They are a billion
dollar activewear brand, but.And you compare them to the ascendant
brand they were 10 years ago,I think it's fair to ask some questions.
So my first question is, hasVuori sort of market corrected Under
(36:56):
Armour? Right. So Vorilaunches 10 years ago and is currently
on the path that we allthought Under Armour would probably
be on now, or still be onanyway. But instead it feels like
they've run into roadblocksalong the way.
I don't buy that Vuori is thereason why Under Armour hasn't continued
to grow. Under Armour is thereason why Under Armour hasn't continued
to grow. They've. They'vescrewed the pooch fairly well here
(37:18):
just in terms of doing all ofthe opposite things that we talked
about. Not being strategic interms of their distribution decisions,
having their DTC be all aboutdiscounting and promotion, not being
strategic in terms of who cansell their brand online and Having
it be all over everywhere andthen just chasing the top line, expanding
(37:39):
into every single categoryunder the sun. Like their outerwear
collection and hunting. Theyjust lost the script quite frankly.
And whereas Vuori has beenvori also, I would say they're different.
Different going afterdifferent customers, different segments,
etc.
It's not a one for one, but Isort of look at the things you just
described or it seemed to besome of the things that Fiori has
(37:59):
done well. So if it's justyou're, if you're like a buyer or
even just a consumer andyou're kind of looking at these two
brands and like Under Armoursis like cruising along, chugging
along. Like when I was AtPolar Tech 10 years ago they were,
oh, they're going to be, it'sgoing to be Adidas, Nike and Under
Armour. Right then that wasthat all weird. They had conquered
the us, the world was next.And now it seems that Vuor just sort
(38:19):
of has taken that place. A lotof it's self inflicted wounds to
your point from Under Armourscreated that. But I do wonder, that's
an interesting sliding doorsmoment. If you know Vuoria now did
that open up the door forVuori to kind of become what it is?
I think it's just more ofUnder Armour just didn't adapt or
meet the athleisure trend atall. I mean Nike has the same customer
(38:41):
base that Under Armour and hasmoved into the that very well and
that just goes into kind ofthe DNA of the different brands.
Right. And how they're able tobring artistry and a little bit of
subtlety to aesthetics anddesign and trend. And you know, like,
like you said, Under Armourgot kind of over their skis into
a lot of things and returningback to football is definitely going
(39:03):
back to home base. Personally,I don't think gym sports are necessarily
that different from teamsports in a, in an overall sense
and vibe. So that to me is alittle bit of most mushy, mushy side.
But you can, you can be in thegym and be, you know, be a football
brand or be a team sport brandat the same time. So I, I think missing
that trend. Like you said,again, they've had inventory issues
(39:23):
going back for years. As, asrecently as 2023 they had a billion
dollars of $1.2 billion ininventory sitting there. So like
just getting the house inorder, you know, you mentioned hunting
which you know, maybe wererelatable to the outdoor. That was
a billion dollar category. Youknow, 10 years ago. I mean, so it's
like they were doingsomething. Right.
(39:44):
Yeah.
And just missed out onconsolidating that or taking it forward.
I mean, they definitely,again, they do seem like every. Every
few years they have anunforced error that kind of takes
them off their stride.
I wonder if the moment haspassed them by. Right. We. We always
described Under Armour as a.As a gir brand. Right. Just like
(40:06):
that was kind of like theirwhole thing. It's like, you know,
coming out of the gate, likethe protect this house, like very
masculine and big, bulking,hulking dude kind of brand. I wonder
if that cultural moment haspassed them by. And then you also,
given that they kind of. Youhave these other challenges they're
trying to overcome, you know,that's maybe not as acceptable, largely
speaking, among the populace.And then also you have brands like
(40:26):
A View, Ari or maybe evenothers kind of. Or even Lululemon
to kind of step in and fill inthe opportunities that were there
for Under Armour back in the day.
I think what you missed,Colin, though, is that misogyny is
actually. Actually is back.We, you know, that's Right, right.
It's timeless.
Yeah, exactly. We've got our misogynist.
You're not misogynisticenough, Colin.
Yeah. So, I mean, maybe. Maybeit's. It's. It's back to strip clubs
(40:50):
for. For Under Armour, youknow, and, yeah, those days are coming
back. Right, because it's agood point. Yeah, I potentially,
I think it's. It's aninteresting thought from a brand
perspective. Did Under Armourlose that sort of gur edge trying
(41:11):
to chase the changing tides ofculture around masculinity and this
whole concept of toxicmasculinity, which I hate that term.
I think it should be banned.But anyway, did they feel like, oh,
we can't be ourselves, sowe're going to try to be something
else? And then they becamenothing, really.
I don't even know if they gotthat far in it. Again, I think the
(41:33):
athleisure side is really atrend in aesthetic, specifically
for maybe the women's businessthat they could have brought into
it. But their branding hasnever been to the point of a Nike
or even Adidas. It's alwayshad a little bit of little brotherism
to it. It doesn't have thesame kind of soul. Now some of that
(41:54):
work has changed. Like thestuff that they're bringing back,
they did a video piece with. Ithink it was. It's Jackson State,
one of the historically blackcolleges that won the national title
Last year. Really emotionalpiece to it. Some of their branding
work is starting to get tothat. But I just think before it
just kind of missed and that'sgoing back a while where they just,
(42:18):
they kind of lost the emotion.And so I actually think that a gur
brand is actually a great ideain the sense of where everything
is going and creating adifference and one that actually
goes to their heritage. Itdoesn't mean you have to pick up
all the stupid tropes that youknow that existed in terms of misogynistic
culture and still havestrength and power and leadership.
(42:41):
Look at the, at the end of theday, we're an alpha based country.
We reward sports and brandsthat take the lead and show by example.
And that is to me that is anopportunity for them to get their
place back.
Frankly, a women, a femaleledger campaign would be really interesting
and they've done some of that.
Nike just did that very well.Well, right. And so I just, I think
(43:04):
there's a place for thatacross the board for all of their,
all their categories. But yougot to get out of the price point.
Well, right.
You got to get out of the techbusiness. All those stupid apps that
they bought up and all thatkind of stuff. It's just like get
back to making great lookingproduct, be on trend and build me
something I can want toassociate with, with an emotion.
Right. I mean part of this isvery, a very podcasty conversation,
(43:25):
right. Because 10 years agothat we just saw them as the, the,
the next big brand. Maybe theytake down a Nike or an Adidas and
it definitely be one of the,the third one version of those. And
then also we, we were dealing,working with them a lot on the outdoor
side. They really hadaspirations to be a, to sit next
to a Patagonia or a NorthFace. They really wanted that outdoor
business and they was allsitting there. Then they launched
(43:46):
down Reebok. Oh, who hasn't atthis point?
Actually not that many.
No, I know that's true.
Right. I mean they were, thatwas part of the big three. They definitely
really sharpen their elbowsand got themselves in. No doubt about
it.
But if you look at them now,the opportunity is still there. But
it is just kind of interestingwhat they're trying to do and it
probably is a brand going backto that sort of roots of football.
(44:09):
I would like to lead them withheart, heart on, wear it on their
sleeve. Be emotional and be strong.
I think it's smart going backto that football vibe. Protect this
house, you know, just aboutsolidity and something you can rely
on, you know, being that. Thatcore and having that core to, to
drive the brand. I, I thinkthat's the, the right move.
Well, I mean. Oh, and you dohave better notes. Like, they are
(44:31):
still a $6 billion brand. Sothey're still, you know, they're
still kind of out there.
They're still, I mean, yes,they've had some hard times obviously,
over the last. I don't knowwhat they peaked at. Maybe more like
eight. But yeah, they're stilla player and still a key partner
for Dick's Sporting Goods asan example. So. Yeah, I certainly
wouldn't write them off. Yeah.
No, no. Their merit if seemsto be about, well, you know, SEC
(44:54):
finds inventory managementcarousel. I mean, really, that's
not.
And then now they're going todeal with the whole tariff situation
on top of all solving thoseproblems, too.
That's right. That's not whatyou want. Yeah. As your. Is your
main business narrative. Sosomething that can get away from
that would certainly be helpful.
It's time for a body shot.
(45:16):
All right. Time for theparting shot. And Owen had to peel
off. So it's just Dave herewith me for the parting shot. But
first of all, Dave, I justwant to say I love it when the world
gets caught up to kind ofobvious things. Right. So last week,
FrontOfficesports.com ran astory about the moment that Rice
Krispie treats are having withendurance athletes, particularly
at this summer's Tour deFrance. Apparently, a single prepackaged
(45:38):
Rice Krispie treat can deliverthe sugar and carbs that many endurance
athletes consume when they areparticipating in their events. And
it's also a little more tasty.Tasty, you know, than maybe some
of the other things they haveat their disposal.
And a lot cheaper and cheaper sports.
Speaking of cheaper sports,nutrition has grown a ton over the
past two decades. Andaccording to that front office sports
article, gels alone are ontrack to be a billion dollar category
(46:00):
by 2034, which is a lot of $2sugar packets. Now, the funny thing
is that the point of thatwhole category being gels and what
is being shown by the RiceKrispie treat boom is that the point
point is to get the right kindof calories into your body. Right?
So gels were invented for easeof consumption and easy digestion,
not because the sugar in a gooworks any better than the sugar in
(46:22):
a handful of candy. So muchlike people who think you simply
can't hike unless you have aspecific shirt or jacket procured
at an outdoor gear Shop. Thereare still those who believe that
you shouldn't get on your bikewithout your sports branded drink
or gummy treats or whatever.So sustainability, Sustainability
is the key driver, rightbehind the we make too much stuff
mantra of the outdoor industryfor sure. But a close second to sustainability
(46:44):
is the better mousetrap tosolutions. We probably already have
hanging in our closet or on.In our shelf. On a shelf in our pantry.
So if you're an elite athletewho is paid to perform athletically,
that's one thing. Figure itout. Go use all the sciencey shit
you got. But if you'retraining for that local half marathon,
the Rice Krispie treat, or aminiature three musketeers from last
Halloween or the peanut buttersandwich that you had have will suit
(47:07):
you just fine. It's reallypretty simple, folks. Don't overthink
going outside. You'll figureit out. That's my parting shot.
Are you saying that a cotton Tshirt might be okay? You know what
you're saying?
I think that's what I'm saying.
Maybe so, though. I do. Icould. I can't see. The next big
boom could be crispy kills.
You have to wear yoursynthetic shirt.
(47:29):
That's right.
With your jones, you can'thave your crispy kills. We might
be litigating cotton kills atsome point in the future.
That's right. I think weshould. I'm bringing crispy treats
to that.
Oh, we should eat them there.
Oh, yeah.
All right. That's the show fortoday. We want your emails. Send
them to myrockfightmail.comthe Rock Fight's a production of
Rock Fight LLC. Today'sepisode produced by producer Dave
(47:53):
Art direction provided bySarah Genser. For the now departed
Owen Comerford, I'm ColinTruth. Thanks for listening. And
here to take us out onceagain, Chris Demaicz with the Rock
Fight Fight song. He nevergets sick of playing it and you never
get sick of listening to it.We'll see you next time. Rock fighters.
(48:17):
Welcome to the Rock Fightwhere we speak our truth Slay sacred
cows and sometimes agree todisagree. We talk about about human
powered outdoor activities andbig bites about topics that we find
interesting like pop culturemusic, the latest movie reviews,
(48:38):
ideas that aim for the head.This is where we speak our truth.
This is where we speak ourtruth. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock
fight. Welcome to the RockFight. Rock fight. Rock fight Fight.
Welcome to the rock light Rocklight Rock fight. Rock light Rock
(48:59):
light Rock fight. Welcome tothe Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock
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