September 5, 2025 • 34 mins
On this episode of The Rock Fight, Colin sits down with Todd Frank, owner of The Trailhead in Missoula, MT, and board member of the Grassroots Outdoor Alliance, to dig into the state of specialty outdoor retail.
With recent closures like Summit Hut and Next Adventure , the question looms: what’s the future of independent gear shops? Todd shares what makes specialty retail resilient, the challenges of D2C and online competition, and why resale programs could be a lifeline for shops like his.
They also dive into:
- Why community connection still sets local shops apart.
- The role of GOA in elevating specialty retailers.
- Why some markets (like Missoula) thrive while others (like SoCal) struggle.
- The importance of brand storytelling in making product choices.
- Todd’s pick for the next big comeback brand (hint: it’s all about Black Diamond).
Thanks for listening! The Rock Fight is a production of Rock Fight, LLC.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Today's episode of the RockFight is presented by Fjallraven.
Learn more about what's goingon at Fjallraven and how to make
cold optional by heading tofjallraven.com Rock fight.
Rock fight. Rock Fight. RockFight. Rock Fight.
Rock Flight welcome to theRock Fight, where we speak our truth,
(00:20):
slay sacred cows, andsometimes agree to disagree. This
is an outdoor podcast thataims for the head. I'm Colin True,
and today we get a little moreinsight into the state of specialty
retail when I am joined by theowner of the Trailhead, Todd Frank.
But for some programmingreminders, be sure to come back to
the rockflight on Monday,where producer Dave and I will be
joined by outdoor industryinsider Owen Comer to talk shop about
(00:43):
the outdoor industry. OnTuesday, head to the Open Container
podcast feed to get the latestfrom Doug Schnitzbahn and next Thursday
you'll get an all new episodeof Gear Abbey with Shantae Salibair
and me as well. Sign up forour newsletter by heading to rockflight
Co or Pops right up there onthe homepage. You fill in your email
address and then you'll getthe next newsletter. You follow us
(01:05):
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You can also reach out to usby following us on Instagram and
also you can send us an emailby emailing us@myrockflightmail.com
send us out your feedback,some questions, some criticisms,
some jokes. Send us a joke.Maybe send us a good joke. We'll
(01:26):
read it on the podcast. Buttoday we're talking a little bit
about outdoor retail. Earlierthis week, on the Monday episode
of the Rock Fight, we talkedabout the news that Summit Hut in
Tucson, Arizona had announcedthat they were closing. That announcement
came not long after NextAdventure in Portland, Oregon announced
that they were closing andusing those shops as a springboard.
Producer Dave, Owen Comerfordand I dug into the evolving landscape
(01:46):
of outdoor retail because alot of this comes back to the perception
of the outdoor industry by theold guard. There's a great many industry
veterans out there who thinkthe industry has to be a certain
way, that the core outdoorsyindividual is the primary driver
of commerce in the outdoorspace, and that the changing assortments
and retailers, which seem tobe trending away from gear and more
to apparel and footwear, canonly be seen as a bad thing. And
(02:11):
all of that, along with thefact that many of the current shop
owners in the outdoor spaceare the same as they've been for
a long time. It may be settingus up for some bad times ahead in
the old outdoor industry. Anda leading voice on the retail front,
as many of you know, is theGrassroots Outdoor alliance, the
organization that representsthe interests of roughly 100 of the
best outdoor accounts in theUS and one of those dealers is the
(02:32):
Trailhead out of Missoula,Montana. And the owner of the Trailhead
is Todd Frank, who's been inthis game for longer than he may
want me to say publicly onthis podcast. And in addition to
owning the Trailhead, Toddsits on the board of the goa. And
after Monday's episode cameout, Todd reached out to me and offered
to join the show to talk aboutall of this. So Todd is here today
with me to talk about thechanging outdoor retail landscape
(02:55):
and what may or may not becoming down the pike. So welcome
back to the Rock Fight, wheretoday it's a check in on outdoor
specialty retail with ToddFrank. And we'll get right into that
after a quick break and a wordfrom our sponsors. Today's episode
of the Rock Flight ispresented by Lemz Shoes. As the summer
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best fitting shoe you've everworn. Don't let our big time production
value and celebrity names foolyou. Looking at you, producer Dave
But Rockvite LLC is a smallbusiness and growing brand and even
though we have our ownconsigliere, he advises on other
(03:59):
matters. We've got to consulta lawyer every now and then on the
legal structures that everybusiness needs. But for a small business
like ours, the cost to hiregeneral counsel or pay a retainer
is a non starter. So what's anoutdoorsy founder to do? I mean,
come on, we're not flashingthat outside money. Enter Conatus
Council. They can help yourbusiness with fractional general
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(04:21):
and government affairs to realworld implementation for outdoor
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Council has helped Rock Fightnavigate some of these areas. And
let me tell you, knowingsomeone has your back means you can
focus on running yourbusiness. I mean, he had at least
three edits to this read toquote, unquote, protect us from ourselves.
I mean, that's what I'mtalking about. Forest cares just
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So got questions?Conatuscouncil.com to get in touch
with Forest. The first sixhours are free. Wait, what? What?
I can't say that. Oh, initialconsultations are free. Okay, fine.
All right. We're here todaywith Todd Frank, the owner of the
(05:02):
Trailhead and Trailhead RiverSports out of Missoula, Montana.
Welcome to the show, Todd.
Thanks for having me, man.This is great.
I'm glad we made it happen. Wemet last year when I was in town
for the outdoor media Summit.And you, I think you had sent me
a note that morning onLinkedIn through something I had
just said in the podcast. Andthen we bumped into each other at,
like, a coffee shop orsomething like that. So it's great
to get you on the show.
Well, let's. Now, let's behonest. It was at the bar to the
(05:24):
store here. You were outhaving a drink on the.
That's right. That's what itwas on the walk.
And then I drug you into thestore, made you do a tour, and, you
know, gave you my whole shtick.
I will. I want to start byblowing smoke up your ass, because
I've said this on the showbefore, but I. And I do picture the
quintessential outdoor gearshop. Your store is what I have in
mind. And, like, that's what Ihad in mind before. And, like, you
were, like, almost amanifestation of that. So the trailhead
(05:47):
is an incredible shop. Anybodywho's in Missoula should go in and
see Todd's store. It's beautiful.
Well, you know, my joke is wehave a fantastic store that just
doesn't make very much money.So if we could figure out how to
make the money part of it,then people would duplicate what
we do. But at this point, Ithink it's a harder thing to duplicate
because it isn't terribly profitable.
Well, excellent segue into whyyou're on the show today. So let's
(06:12):
talk about what's happening atOutdoor Retailer. Right. So earlier
this week, the show's gonna goup on Friday, September 5th. Earlier
this week, we were talking onthe show about the news that Summit
Hut out of Tucson is closing.That led into A larger conversation
about things sit withspecialty retail and the outdoor
industry in 2025. Like wetalked about you, like we just mentioned,
you're a shop owner, but youalso sit on the board of the Grassroots
Outdoor Alliance. You bring areally interesting POV to this conversation.
(06:34):
Plus, people were getting sickof Wes Allen coming on the show,
so we had to bring in adifferent voice. But let's start
broadly. So how do you view.View the overall health of outdoor
specialty retail?
You know, I think on thewhole, if you compare it to what's
happening in the rest ofretail, outdoor, specialty. Outdoor
is actually in pretty goodshape, I think, you know, because
we're small and we're prettynimble, and we can kind of change
(06:55):
direction a little moreeasily. You know, outdoor specialty
has weathered the last three,four years pretty darn well. That
being said, you know, it'sstill really challenging from an
operational standpoint, so.
Well, how is it differenttoday, then from maybe when you started
the shop? I got to imagine, Imean, going through. From when you
(07:15):
started through the, you know,the rise of D2C and the Internet
and everything has kind ofchanged the landscape dramatically.
Oh, yeah. I mean, I think, youknow, in the old days, it was pretty
easy. We bought stuff we likedand we put it in our store and we
tried to sell it. And if wedidn't, we liquidated it and bought
more and tried again. And, youknow, we've just seen a continued
erosion of margins over thelast. Call it 20 years from D2C,
(07:37):
from the Internet first, youknow, so, you know, it's just more
complicated than it used tobe. I think, you know, at this point,
the thing that we were havinga discussion in the store the other
day about is we essentiallyneed to have a fully functioning
web store so people can justlook at it and then come in and buy
stuff off the floor. And so,you know, we have all the expenses
(07:58):
of an Internet business, butwe don't get any of the benefit because
our consumers still wouldrather walk in the front door and
touch and feel it. And that's.That's the map. That's sort of the
magic we offer.
So when you hear the news ofnext Adventure in Portland Summit
hut just this last couple ofweeks closing, you know, what's your
reaction? Is it surprising toyou, given those challenges?
I mean, yes and no. I thinkboth of those businesses were around
(08:19):
for a long time. I know, youknow, reasonably well know both the
owners. I have not spoken witheither one of them directly, so I
can't. I Can't give anyinsight onto what was going on internally,
you know, outside of just thebroader understanding that, you know,
when, when stores tend to sortof go down one path more than another.
And they were different pathsfor next adventure than it was for,
(08:42):
for the summit. Hut, you know,you tend to over index in a certain
category or a certain way ofdoing business, whether it's the
Internet or whether it's likebuilding your own OEM kind of products,
you know, you just, you get,you can get leverage really quickly.
And I think that, that, youknow, and then a small change can
have a huge effect. You know,most of the grassroots people are
(09:04):
not really great Internetpeople. Most of them aren't big enough
to do a lot of things on theirown. And so we're, in a way that's
kind of our superpower, isthat we're so slow to change internally,
technology wise. Most of thegroup doesn't do business with Amazon.
They don't have robustwebsites that make up more than 50%
(09:26):
of their business. Those sortsof things sort of insulate us from
a lot of the broader marketchanges that happen. So while I was
saddened, I guess in a waywe've seen that happen with odd members
of the group, you know, overthe years that I've been involved
where you're like, wow, Ididn't see that one coming. And again,
I haven't spoken with themdirectly, so I don't know internally
(09:48):
what was happening. But I cancertainly speculate that, you know,
the online business has gottena lot more challenging than it used
to be.
Yeah, I connected with Danathrough LinkedIn. She has expressed
some interest potentially incoming on the show down, down the
road. We'll see. No pressure,of course, Dana, but we'd love to
have you. And same thing withthe folks in Portland. You guys are.
Anybody from that. That shopwould be welcome to come on to talk
(10:09):
about it. You know, a bigworry of mine prior to this, I've
said it on, I think on thepodcast before, is who's going to
open new shops. It seems that,like, if a retailer doesn't turn
the keys over to newmanagement and they simply close,
kind of, that's it. And whenwe spoke about this on Monday's episode
of the Rock Fight, you know,producer Dave talked about how actually
there is a new shop that'sopening in Portland, which is, you
(10:30):
know, losing next adventure.Then I also learned this week, talking
to a rep in the Midwest, thatthis past spring a new store opened
up in Minneapolis, which lostMidwest mountaineering Not that long
ago, it's not right now, Ithink it's an appointment only shop
in Minneapolis. But it feltlike for a city like that to lose
a Midwest mountaineering like,God, what a gaping hole in sort of
the landscape of, like,outdoor retail. I mean, do you think
(10:50):
some of these new stores aresigns that, you know, more outdoor
shops are coming, or do youthink maybe these are outliers?
Well, I think it's probably alittle both, to be honest with you.
I think it's probably marketdependent in a lot of cases. Where
is there room in a marketplacefor somebody to come in with a very,
very tight perspective orpoint of view on what they want to
do? You have to have enoughpeople to make that work. You can't
(11:12):
probably go into many markets.I think it would be challenging to
go into LA and open upsomebody to compete with an REI and
the costs of doing that. Andby that, I mean a more general specialty
outdoor store, where I thinkif you're in a marketplace that has
room for a true core specialtyclimbing shop or a running store
(11:35):
or. You know, the old adagethat I heard a long time ago was
that, you know, in thebeginning you could only buy golf
clubs at the golf course. Andthen it sort of evolved, and you
could buy golf clubs at thesort of general sporting goods store,
had a golf department.
Right.
And then it sort of evolvedinto Golf USA and the big golf megastores.
(11:56):
And now, you know, in Phoenix,there are stores that don't sell
anything but golf balls.Right, right, right, right. And they're
they're 3 or 400 square feet,and it's a dude sitting behind a
desk and, you know, and he'smaking it work. And so I think my
balls. Exactly. I think it'sjust continuing to evolve, you know,
and I, I, I mean, I'moptimistic in general that, that
(12:18):
brick and mortar specialtystores like mine, you know, we bring
something to the table thatbrands just can't duplicate. Right.
And so what we're trying to dois find that intersection with value
and consumers, like, where dothey see what we do as being valuable?
And I think, you know, wefound our own path. And people in
grassroots are doing somethings differently than we are. Some
(12:40):
of them are doing the same.You know, we, as you know, have had
a lot of success with resale.And you talk ad nauseam about it
on your, on your podcast.
It was impressive. I lovedyour resale. I'm like, guys, everyone
go to Trailhead. You got tosee the resale section. It's Incredible.
Well, yeah.
The thing I, of course, alwayslook over my shoulder at is as vendors
work harder and harder to tryto make it work for them, we keep
(13:03):
going. It's just not built forvendors to do online. If there was
ever a piece of business thatspecialty brick and mortar could
just do better, it's that onething. And I would love to see brands
double down on that and say,we're going to support resale in
all of our specialty stores inGrassroots. We think everybody should
(13:25):
have a component of it. Youknow, my daughter, who's. Who started
that, and she and the guy thatruns it are going to do an education
session at the next Connecttrade show.
Oh, that's great.
About how to set up, you know,because for us, it was really about
not building a new business,but how do you integrate a piece
of it into what you're doing?So, you know, there. There are these.
These little nuggets of. Ofbright light that I see that I think
(13:47):
on the whole, you know,specialty is in a really pretty good
place relative to everyone.
I think a lot of people, maybethe more influential voices at brands
kind of need to kind ofrecognize what's happening and maybe
and sometimes get out of theway, right? Because when you do step
back and look at things andit's really interesting, like, I
think everybody, the people ofour generation who grew up in this
industry and look at your shopand say, that's it. That's the model.
(14:10):
And I'm like, I'm not. I saidthis on Monday's pod. I don't know
if that's the model anymore.You have a really unique thing where
you are and what you haveaccess to. And I think about. You
mentioned the golf analogy youjust said is really interesting because
someone else, actually, thesame rep who told me about what happens
going on in Minneapolis wasalso talking about how, hey, think
about climbing gyms, right?Climbing gyms now are not just, you
(14:30):
know, people who want to goand train to go outside. They are
sort of outdoor hubs for acommunity. And think about if you
go to a climbing gym. The lastthree pairs of rock climbing gym
shoes I purchased were at arock climbing gym because I probably
needed my kids outgrew theirshoes or whatever it was. I wasn't
thinking, I'll wait to goorder online or go to REI or go to
Nomad Ventures down the streetor whatever. I said, no, I'm here
(14:52):
at the gym. I'm going to gobuy those shoes that are right there.
And it's like that That Iwonder if there's almost a return
to form to that, but then alsojust the kind of generalist expectations
of the assortments in shops. Ithink it's just changed forever.
I mean, unless your shopspecializes in something where it's
located, like your shop is ina particular place that demands a
specific assortment, what'swrong with that sort of softer assortment
(15:14):
that will drive what it willbe successful in most shops anyway?
You know what I mean? Youknow, I'm kind of getting at. I think
that's sort of. And I do thinkthere's some people in the industry,
especially in the brand front,who still just kind of want to say,
like, no specialty retailneeds to be that hard goods assortment
and that footwear assortment.It's like, yeah, but why not assort
based off of what's near thestore and the consumer's there? I
don't know, there's just toomany more options to kind of pigeonhole
(15:37):
it into one thing anymore.
Yeah, I mean, I do think youas a retailer, you run a risk of
doing like losing the corevalues of what somebody walks into
a store like ours for. I mean,you walk in and we have hard goods
up front. We want to tellpeople that's what we do. We know,
you know, we've got all thisgreat clothing and we, you know,
we have all this stuffhappening. But at the end of the
(15:59):
day, I, I think part of ouridentity is to show people that no,
we care about this gear. Like,we love this gear and we're going
to help you figure out whatthe right piece of it is, you know,
and that's, I mean, it'scertainly challenging. But I think
the shops, you know, that,that I've seen that have gone away
from that, you know, then, youknow, they just, I mean, there's
(16:20):
a lot of business to be had insome markets there. And again, I
think it's really marketdependent. And, you know, I've been
in Missoula for 40 some yearsnow and have a pretty good sense
for what our community wantsfrom us.
Right.
You know, and so I don't knowthat it's really about me driving
that as much as it is aboutconsumers that come in. But, you
know, what we hear from peopleall the time that walk in our front
(16:42):
door, especially in the summerwhen we have visitors, is, God, we
don't have anything like thisat home. Like, you know, we got an
REI or we got, you know, thisother store that does a lot of clothing,
but we don't have anybody thathas, you Know, a wall of backpacks
or 11 kinds of backpackingstoves or, you know, the sort of
stuff that, you know,honestly, we don't really make a
lot of money selling thatstuff, but it really is. It's part
(17:05):
of our identity, and it's.It's a core component to what we
bring to the table for brands.
But there's a local demand,though, too, right? Because I think.
And I get that. And if I. Ifyou're from a place where, you know,
maybe the outdoor activitiesaren't as rich as they are in Missoula,
and you walk into your localREI or shop and it's mostly, you
know, cool pants, nodisrespect, cool. And like. And Merrell
hiking shoes. Right. I getwhy, then walk into your shop, you're
(17:27):
like, holy shit, this is anoutdoor store. But then it's also,
if I'm the person who ownsthat store, that local store, that
is a little softer focusedbecause the activities just don't
support it. Because, you know,you know, okay, if I stock ice axes
and backpacks, but I sell twoof them a year, you know, because
I can go on to garage growngear or any number of outdoor sites
and procure that stuff foranybody going on, like, a destination
(17:49):
trip, you know, do I reallywant to tie up that much money in
inventory that just isn'tgoing to move, right. Versus I think
there's other ways you cankind of service those people. Like,
how do you bring attention tothose categories without maybe overextending
yourself on the inventoryfront? And I think that might just
be more the era that we'reheading towards, because I think
ultimately what we do agree onis what is the experience, Right?
And Owen mentioned this on theshow on Monday, too. It's like, it's
(18:11):
that just that. That vibe youget in when you walk in a shop and
you're like, okay, I'm inhere. And now I just really want
to go do something outdoor.Ultimately, what your. I think the
mission should be for a goodoutdoor retailer, I mean, that's.
Certainly what our mission is.We want people to walk in and walk
out of here being like, oh,man, let's go on a hike. This is
really inspiring. And we'relucky because we live in this place
(18:34):
that's at a nexus of a wholebunch of different kinds of activities.
And I think what I see thechallenge is if you're trying to
have a store, and I don't wantto pick on la, but in la, you know,
it's. It's. It's a largerbarrier to get people from your front
door to an activity that islogically adjacent to the category
(18:55):
that you're selling.
Well, okay, LA is aninteresting example and this has
been kind of surprisingthings. I've been in Southern California
for five years now. I'm reallyfortunate that where I live I do
have nomad ventures nearby. SoI have a really solid, you know,
outdoor gear shop that I cango shopping at. I don't have to be
overly reliant on REI andDick's when I want to have that retail
experience. But the thing thatI think is misunderstood about Southern
California is how mountain itis and how much outdoor opportunity
(19:17):
there really is. And I. Andalso then it's very populous so you
would think, okay, there's amillion like fuzz shops. Like why
can't we have a few moreoutdoor stores? I don't, I don't
really know why there's thisdearth of outdoor shops in this area.
I mean, if you want to put itin downtown la, I agree with you.
But in the surrounding area,you think, man, I feel like we could
support more stores here, butthere's just no outdoor shops anymore
(19:39):
here. Ever since a 16 left,it's like, no, we're, we're not going
to even try. And I'mwondering, curious why that is. I'm
not saying that you have theanswers, but I've always been really
curious like why we don't havemore outdoor shops in Southern California.
Well, yeah, I mean, I wouldjust say this is that the places
that I've been to that havehad very successful, robust outdoor
gear marketplaces oftentimesare close to destinations that people
(20:03):
are specifically going to skior they're going to climb or they're
going, you know, and you go toa place like LA and there's so many
other distractions withinthose communities that people are
spending their money on thatyou gotta be a pretty core person
to want to, you know, seek outa shop in a place like that where
it's just, you know, it'sgoing to be a drive.
Right, right. Plus then, youknow, backcountry put that shop in
(20:27):
the Grove, which was just aterrible idea because it was not
a great looking store either.Anyway. Actually it was a good looking
store, which is a badassortment. Anyway.
Well, we could go down thatroad for a long time.
Sorry. Shots fired inbackcountry. Moving in the Goa piece
of it all. Like, so I'veposited on the show and probably,
I think even when Gabe MeyerCame on. I wonder if GOA has kind
of the weight or the abilityto be a more vocal group, maybe put
(20:49):
some pressure back on thebrands. That would maybe raise the
value of a brand's presence inGOA stores and thus elevating specialty
retail in general. As a GOAdealer and someone sitting on the
GOA board, I mean, do youthink that the organization could
do more to raise the profileof specialty dealers and kind of
leverage what you guys do as agroup with outdoor brands?
Man, we're trying, yes. Imean, I think we can, but I think
(21:12):
that's something that's,that's central to what we talk about
as an organization. And youknow, we're, I mean we want, we want
all specialty to do better.And so we, you know, while Grassroots
is a relatively exclusivegroup, you know, we have about 105
shares, owners of, you know,the people have stores, you know,
that number changes a littlebit based on the, you know, losing
(21:35):
a store, gaining a store, orthe board of directors can adjust,
add additional share. So, youknow, I mean, at this point, frankly,
we're running the largesttrade show for outdoor in America.
I mean we, you know, weliterally, I think in some ways are.
It's sort of us and REI or usand the rei, Dick's kind of side
(21:57):
of the business. You know, werepresent something that brands,
you know, I mean, they need tobe in store. You know, a brand told
me one time, they said, youknow, if we're doing well on specialty
and Grassroots store, on thefloor of Grassroots stores, we know
we're doing well becausethat's the most competitive market
that we could ever put ourproduct on the floor in. And if we
do well there, that meanswe're probably going to do well in
(22:19):
the broad market. If specialtyis not picking up our product for
some reason or it's not doingwell against a competitor, then that's
a really important time for usto look back. And I think, you know,
we bring a level ofauthenticity and two party validation
to products in our stores thatyou just can't buy in a D2C format
(22:41):
or an online format becausethere's just so much noise. And when
people walk in and they seethat curated collection. Yeah, I
mean, I do think brandsunderstand how important specialty
is and I hear it all the time.We really want Grassroots to be successful.
We want you guys to bestronger. Should we have a bigger
voice in the overall industry?Probably we're not consumer facing
at all. Like there's no signon our door that says, you know,
(23:05):
we're like, you know, when yougo to an independent brewery, there's
a little sign on the door thatsays, we're a member of the Independent
brewers association, you know,so I think there's opportunity for
a more consumer facing side ofit. But that's, you know, those are
lifts that as an organizationwe're just continuing to talk about
and work on every day.
It is funny for all the, youknow, the discourse around like shows
(23:25):
and things like that, youknow, for the Connect show, which
I would wager pre Covid. Imean, how much of the industry, largely
speaking, was even aware ofthe Connect show, right? I mean the
people, the people with thebrand who needed to know were there.
Right. It's kind of like theoverall general awareness of GOA
Connect. I mean, less than 20%maybe. You know, I think you could
probably argue was pretty,pretty small. Like the people who
(23:46):
who needed to know knew andthat was it. And now I hear I get
asked a lot. Oh, we went toConnect. Like what was it? Should
I, should I go to that? Youknow, like, like people don't even
quite get like what the. Whatit is yet, but it's becoming a little
bit more of a common topic.And I've said, you know, the folks,
I think even at Switchback orwhatever, I'm like, figure out a
way to co locate with JoaConnect if you want your show to
be relevant. I'm not sure I.Not that you guys would ever even
(24:07):
agree to that, but it's justlike everybody you would want to
have at your show is going toConnect. So like, that is definitely,
I think the, the set you guysare setting the bar for what, you
know, an event should be rightnow in terms of on the trade side
anyway, in 2025.
Well, you know, of all thetrade shows that have existed and
I don't really want to go downthe trade show rabbit hole that far.
(24:28):
No, I didn't either. It wasn'ton my list to do today, but, you
know.
Yeah, but I think the thingthat we just talked about today was
of all the trade shows thathave been in existence, Connect is
the one trade show that hasthis laser focused mission. It was
built by retailers for ourneeds. It answers what we want to
get done at a trade show. Andthe question is, could a broader
(24:51):
trade show still do that?Like, that's the.
I don't think so.
I think, I mean that's thechallenge that I think we're all
faced with is I thinkeverybody recognizes. Sure. It'd
be wonderful to go back to thedays where we had those amazing networking
events at or, but you know, weweren't doing the kind of work we're
(25:13):
doing at Connect at all.
Try to, I think there's stilllike, we've said it with like such.
We switch back and you'reright, we shouldn't go on a total
rabbit hole with trade shows.But it is like recognize what the
event is for and if the eventis for getting together, that's not,
That's a worthy initiative.Right. But to your point, my two
favorite things, events I'vebeen to in the last few years, GOA
(25:34):
Connect and then the OMA MediaSummit. I'm not Media Summit. Media
Media event. Because it'slaser focused about what it's about.
You come here for this andit's like, okay, good. I know, I'm,
I know why I'm spending moneyto show up at this event. Right.
And then if the other, if likea switchback or somebody can grow
to be that sort of biggathering where it's like, well,
you got to go to that becauselike, that's what we do every year.
(25:54):
That's great too. I'm on boardwith that. I endorse that. But you
know, that needs to be earnedover time for sure.
Yeah, yeah. And I, you know, Ithink, yeah, I mean there's, there's
lots of pieces to it, but Ithink, you know, that re vendors
are going to tend to show upwhere retailers want to be to do
business. And so if you canfigure out how to make that happen,
you know, there's probably asolution to this problem that we're
(26:16):
all trying to solve for andwe're part of it. You know, we're
not the outdoor industry.Like, we get that. And one of the
things that we continue towork on at Grassroots is to make
sure that we go back to thatNorth Star of, you know, what is
Grassroots? What are we doing?Why are we here? What's our mission?
And make sure that we sort oftruth test everything we get asked
to do against that.
(26:37):
That's why I think you guysshould kick in the door in some of
these brands and be like,listen, GOA is doing this across
the board. Get on board withit or you're out. That brand's out
of our stores. You're out.
Yeah, well, you know, like, atthe end of the day, I like to joke
that I'm the low volume, highmaintenance guy that you're going
to deal with. I'm a total painin the ass. But, you know, I don't
(26:59):
do Very much business either.I want a lot. You're not going to
get much out of it.
Why do we think this guy's soimportant? I don't. Have you seen
the. Have you seen the. Thepos. Not great.
No, not great.
All right. Hey, listen, Iappreciate you joining me today.
I do have one question for youbefore we leave because this is a
bit of a teaser. This is goingto come out on Friday the 5th. On
Monday's episode, we're doingthis. We're going to do a little
(27:21):
kind of predictions episode.And so I'm going to ask you now as
a teaser for that Mondayepisode, so, you know, kind of universally
accepted this year that, like,you know, the comeback story of the
year was Mountain Hardware.Right. It started a bit last year.
Right. But everybody kind ofpretty happy with where Hardware
has gotten to, given where itwas over the past decade or so. So
we're going to make ourpredictions. Fall 26. You know, the
Mountain Hardware comebackaward winner will be. And I'm going
(27:44):
to give you 10 options. Youtell me who you think it's going
to be. All right? On the listwe have Marmot, Columbia, Nike, Choco,
Under Armour, TNF Vans, HydroFlask, Black Diamond, Prana, or Solo
Stove. Now, I know there'sprobably some on there that maybe
you don't carry in your shop,but they all sort of. We wanted to
(28:05):
go with, like, publicly tradedcompany people. We could really kind
of track their finances to seehow they would do.
Yeah.
So that list, is there anybodywho jumps out as, like, that's gonna
be the next year's Mountain Hardware?
Absolutely. Yeah. Blackdiamond for sure.
Yeah.
You know, I mean, I will tellyou that, you know, this business
has always been aboutrelationships. And, you know, we
(28:25):
had completely stopped buyingBlack Diamond. We left them, which
is crazy for a shop. This was,you know, my account number with
Black diamond is the same asmy account number with Patagonia.
I mean, we've been doingbusiness since they were one company.
And we stopped for about twoyears. We stopped buying product.
And, you know, I trust theteam of people running that business
(28:45):
right now more than I havetrusted any team running any business
that I do business with in adecade or more. Neil's the real deal.
I mean, he is like a straightshooter. And I think that. That if
they play their cards right,you know, I think there's an opportunity
there that doesn't exist.
Yeah.
For other. For other people,sure, I do. I will. I got to throw
(29:06):
out, though, that, you know,the Mountain Hardware thing The national
sales manager for MountainHardware was my heart or my apparel
buyer for about 14 years.
Oh, we're taking credit. Ilove it.
So fully taking credit for thesuccess of Mountain Hardware because
she took the mission to thoseguys and said if you want to get
back into special. Now to befair, we don't buy Mountain Hardware
here because we have a largeregional chain based in Montana that
(29:30):
has had a big hardwarecommitment. And the second that they
don't buy it, we'll buy backin. But you know, one of the long
term tenants I've always hadis that if I truly want to be special,
be called a specialty outdoorstore, people need to walk in my
store and see brands that theydon't see everywhere else in town.
And you know, we have a largestate like level retailer and then
(29:54):
we also have shields andbetween the two of them there's not
a lot of room left for us tofind things that nobody else carries.
I mean it's gotten right, youknow, but they're out there and we
just have to work harder at itand you know, it's riskier. So you
know, we have. Yeah, it's agood balance. Right. But fully credit
for the Mountain Hardwarething, I'm just going to put that
out there. Troy can call me ifhe wants and argue with me, but I'm
(30:16):
going.
To say Aaron, no, I think TroyPsychot, president of Mountain Hardware.
Where's, where's, you know,where's Todd's kickback? You know,
he can't carry your brand. Youbetter make sure you're sending some
checks to Missoula.
You know, I trained Aaron onwhat it means to be a specialty retailer.
Of course she went on to do awhole bunch of other amazing things
afterwards. So, you know, fullcredit to her as a, as an amazing
(30:38):
person.
I get her on the phone, she'slike Todd who? What?
Yeah, exactly.
I don't know. I never lived inMissoula. I don't know what you're
talking about. But the.
Right.
Yeah.
Never heard of him.
Well, we might have to. Imight, I might have to eliminate.
But I, I agree. I think Blackdiamond is the, the hands down favorite.
You know that would just be.You wouldn't make any money if you
bet on them in Vegas. You knowI think they're because. And I agree
with the Neil, Neil, formerguest of the pod, just legit leader
(30:59):
and doing all the right thingsthere. We may have to take him take
Black diamond off the list forMonday's episode because it just
seems like it's it's too. It'sjust too obvious. It's not gonna
be a fun conversation. Sothat's what I thought you were gonna
say.
But, yeah, no, I loveColumbia's new. New campaign. I think
it's fantastic. You guys did abunch of work on it, and, you know,
we haven't bought Columbia andprobably close to 30 years here at
(31:19):
the store. But that doesn'tmean I don't have a ton of respect
for, like, trying to figureout how to be in the right place
at the right time.
And it sounds like talking toMatt Sutton, who came on last week,
that, you know, that. That ifthey're gonna see this through, maybe
you would rethink that. Theirgoal would be to make you rethink
that. Right. And I actuallygot in. It was some guy who was getting
into it with me on this, onthe whole campaign on LinkedIn, and
(31:40):
he's like, did you think aboutbuying anything after you saw the
video? I'm like, actually, Ikind of did. I immediately went to
the website to see what theirassortment looked like because it
made me interested in thebrand. So it did make me want to.
I didn't, but I also was. Idefinitely looked. Yeah.
I mean, I think, you know,when. When we look at why brands
make sense for our stores, canwe tell a story about that brand?
You know?
Right.
I mean, you know, if theSandal guys we tell a story about
(32:02):
because they're from Missoula,you know, the Mystery Ranch pack
guys, because they are fromBozeman, I mean, there's, you know,
there's a lot of stories thatwe get to tell about why we support
a particular brand. And, youknow, if you have a good story to
tell retailers, you know, we.We can kind of. We have our choice.
We can sell almost anything.So give us a good story and give
us a place to sell somethingnobody else has in the market or
(32:25):
at least is not grossly overdistributed, and we'll find a way
to sell it.
Todd, thanks for taking a fewminutes to hang out with me today.
Yeah, thank you. We'll talk soon.
All right, that's the show fortoday. Thanks to my guest, Todd Frank.
What do you think about all ofthis sense? Send us your emails to
myrockfightmail.com we want tohear all about it, especially if
(32:46):
you're a retailer, if you're abrand, if you're one of those curmudgeons
I talked about earlier thatthinks the industry is going down
the toilet. Send me youremails. Myrockfightmail.com. the
Rock fight's a production ofrock fight llc. I'm Colin true. Thanks
for listening. And back toclose us out and take you into the
weekend is the voice of therock fight Krista makes with the
rock fight fights song. We'llsee you next time. Rock fighters.
(33:18):
Welcome to the rock fightwhere we speak our truth, slay sacred
cows and sometimes agree todisagree. We talk about human powered
outdoor activities and bigfights about topics that that we
find interesting like popculture music, the latest movie reviews,
(33:39):
ideas that aim for the head.This is where we speak our truth.
This is where we speak ourtruth. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock
fight. Welcome to the rockfight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Welcome
to the rock fight. Rock fight.Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.
(34:00):
Rock fight. Welcome to therock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.
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Today's episode of the RockFight is presented by Fjallraven.
Learn more about what's goingon at Fjallraven and how to make
cold optional by heading tofjallraven.com Rock fight.
Rock fight. Rock Fight. RockFight. Rock Fight.
Rock Flight welcome to theRock Fight, where we speak our truth,
(00:20):
slay sacred cows, andsometimes agree to disagree. This
is an outdoor podcast thataims for the head. I'm Colin True,
and today we get a little moreinsight into the state of specialty
retail when I am joined by theowner of the Trailhead, Todd Frank.
But for some programmingreminders, be sure to come back to
the rockflight on Monday,where producer Dave and I will be
joined by outdoor industryinsider Owen Comer to talk shop about
(00:43):
the outdoor industry. OnTuesday, head to the Open Container
podcast feed to get the latestfrom Doug Schnitzbahn and next Thursday
you'll get an all new episodeof Gear Abbey with Shantae Salibair
and me as well. Sign up forour newsletter by heading to rockflight
Co or Pops right up there onthe homepage. You fill in your email
address and then you'll getthe next newsletter. You follow us
(01:05):
over on Instagram to get videoclips from all of our podcast episodes.
You can also reach out to usby following us on Instagram and
also you can send us an emailby emailing us@myrockflightmail.com
send us out your feedback,some questions, some criticisms,
some jokes. Send us a joke.Maybe send us a good joke. We'll
(01:26):
read it on the podcast. Buttoday we're talking a little bit
about outdoor retail. Earlierthis week, on the Monday episode
of the Rock Fight, we talkedabout the news that Summit Hut in
Tucson, Arizona had announcedthat they were closing. That announcement
came not long after NextAdventure in Portland, Oregon announced
that they were closing andusing those shops as a springboard.
Producer Dave, Owen Comerfordand I dug into the evolving landscape
(01:46):
of outdoor retail because alot of this comes back to the perception
of the outdoor industry by theold guard. There's a great many industry
veterans out there who thinkthe industry has to be a certain
way, that the core outdoorsyindividual is the primary driver
of commerce in the outdoorspace, and that the changing assortments
and retailers, which seem tobe trending away from gear and more
to apparel and footwear, canonly be seen as a bad thing. And
(02:11):
all of that, along with thefact that many of the current shop
owners in the outdoor spaceare the same as they've been for
a long time. It may be settingus up for some bad times ahead in
the old outdoor industry. Anda leading voice on the retail front,
as many of you know, is theGrassroots Outdoor alliance, the
organization that representsthe interests of roughly 100 of the
best outdoor accounts in theUS and one of those dealers is the
(02:32):
Trailhead out of Missoula,Montana. And the owner of the Trailhead
is Todd Frank, who's been inthis game for longer than he may
want me to say publicly onthis podcast. And in addition to
owning the Trailhead, Toddsits on the board of the goa. And
after Monday's episode cameout, Todd reached out to me and offered
to join the show to talk aboutall of this. So Todd is here today
with me to talk about thechanging outdoor retail landscape
(02:55):
and what may or may not becoming down the pike. So welcome
back to the Rock Fight, wheretoday it's a check in on outdoor
specialty retail with ToddFrank. And we'll get right into that
after a quick break and a wordfrom our sponsors. Today's episode
of the Rock Flight ispresented by Lemz Shoes. As the summer
season wraps up, now's a greattime to get ready for fall with Lem's.
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meantime, head to lemshoes.comright now to get your feet into the
best fitting shoe you've everworn. Don't let our big time production
value and celebrity names foolyou. Looking at you, producer Dave
But Rockvite LLC is a smallbusiness and growing brand and even
though we have our ownconsigliere, he advises on other
(03:59):
matters. We've got to consulta lawyer every now and then on the
legal structures that everybusiness needs. But for a small business
like ours, the cost to hiregeneral counsel or pay a retainer
is a non starter. So what's anoutdoorsy founder to do? I mean,
come on, we're not flashingthat outside money. Enter Conatus
Council. They can help yourbusiness with fractional general
counsel and legal servicesfrom strategy consulting to advocacy
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and government affairs to realworld implementation for outdoor
recreation industrybusinesses. Forrest over at Kannadas
Council has helped Rock Fightnavigate some of these areas. And
let me tell you, knowingsomeone has your back means you can
focus on running yourbusiness. I mean, he had at least
three edits to this read toquote, unquote, protect us from ourselves.
I mean, that's what I'mtalking about. Forest cares just
(04:42):
as much about the outdoors andthe outdoor industry as our listeners.
So got questions?Conatuscouncil.com to get in touch
with Forest. The first sixhours are free. Wait, what? What?
I can't say that. Oh, initialconsultations are free. Okay, fine.
All right. We're here todaywith Todd Frank, the owner of the
(05:02):
Trailhead and Trailhead RiverSports out of Missoula, Montana.
Welcome to the show, Todd.
Thanks for having me, man.This is great.
I'm glad we made it happen. Wemet last year when I was in town
for the outdoor media Summit.And you, I think you had sent me
a note that morning onLinkedIn through something I had
just said in the podcast. Andthen we bumped into each other at,
like, a coffee shop orsomething like that. So it's great
to get you on the show.
Well, let's. Now, let's behonest. It was at the bar to the
(05:24):
store here. You were outhaving a drink on the.
That's right. That's what itwas on the walk.
And then I drug you into thestore, made you do a tour, and, you
know, gave you my whole shtick.
I will. I want to start byblowing smoke up your ass, because
I've said this on the showbefore, but I. And I do picture the
quintessential outdoor gearshop. Your store is what I have in
mind. And, like, that's what Ihad in mind before. And, like, you
were, like, almost amanifestation of that. So the trailhead
(05:47):
is an incredible shop. Anybodywho's in Missoula should go in and
see Todd's store. It's beautiful.
Well, you know, my joke is wehave a fantastic store that just
doesn't make very much money.So if we could figure out how to
make the money part of it,then people would duplicate what
we do. But at this point, Ithink it's a harder thing to duplicate
because it isn't terribly profitable.
Well, excellent segue into whyyou're on the show today. So let's
(06:12):
talk about what's happening atOutdoor Retailer. Right. So earlier
this week, the show's gonna goup on Friday, September 5th. Earlier
this week, we were talking onthe show about the news that Summit
Hut out of Tucson is closing.That led into A larger conversation
about things sit withspecialty retail and the outdoor
industry in 2025. Like wetalked about you, like we just mentioned,
you're a shop owner, but youalso sit on the board of the Grassroots
Outdoor Alliance. You bring areally interesting POV to this conversation.
(06:34):
Plus, people were getting sickof Wes Allen coming on the show,
so we had to bring in adifferent voice. But let's start
broadly. So how do you view.View the overall health of outdoor
specialty retail?
You know, I think on thewhole, if you compare it to what's
happening in the rest ofretail, outdoor, specialty. Outdoor
is actually in pretty goodshape, I think, you know, because
we're small and we're prettynimble, and we can kind of change
(06:55):
direction a little moreeasily. You know, outdoor specialty
has weathered the last three,four years pretty darn well. That
being said, you know, it'sstill really challenging from an
operational standpoint, so.
Well, how is it differenttoday, then from maybe when you started
the shop? I got to imagine, Imean, going through. From when you
(07:15):
started through the, you know,the rise of D2C and the Internet
and everything has kind ofchanged the landscape dramatically.
Oh, yeah. I mean, I think, youknow, in the old days, it was pretty
easy. We bought stuff we likedand we put it in our store and we
tried to sell it. And if wedidn't, we liquidated it and bought
more and tried again. And, youknow, we've just seen a continued
erosion of margins over thelast. Call it 20 years from D2C,
(07:37):
from the Internet first, youknow, so, you know, it's just more
complicated than it used tobe. I think, you know, at this point,
the thing that we were havinga discussion in the store the other
day about is we essentiallyneed to have a fully functioning
web store so people can justlook at it and then come in and buy
stuff off the floor. And so,you know, we have all the expenses
(07:58):
of an Internet business, butwe don't get any of the benefit because
our consumers still wouldrather walk in the front door and
touch and feel it. And that's.That's the map. That's sort of the
magic we offer.
So when you hear the news ofnext Adventure in Portland Summit
hut just this last couple ofweeks closing, you know, what's your
reaction? Is it surprising toyou, given those challenges?
I mean, yes and no. I thinkboth of those businesses were around
(08:19):
for a long time. I know, youknow, reasonably well know both the
owners. I have not spoken witheither one of them directly, so I
can't. I Can't give anyinsight onto what was going on internally,
you know, outside of just thebroader understanding that, you know,
when, when stores tend to sortof go down one path more than another.
And they were different pathsfor next adventure than it was for,
(08:42):
for the summit. Hut, you know,you tend to over index in a certain
category or a certain way ofdoing business, whether it's the
Internet or whether it's likebuilding your own OEM kind of products,
you know, you just, you get,you can get leverage really quickly.
And I think that, that, youknow, and then a small change can
have a huge effect. You know,most of the grassroots people are
(09:04):
not really great Internetpeople. Most of them aren't big enough
to do a lot of things on theirown. And so we're, in a way that's
kind of our superpower, isthat we're so slow to change internally,
technology wise. Most of thegroup doesn't do business with Amazon.
They don't have robustwebsites that make up more than 50%
(09:26):
of their business. Those sortsof things sort of insulate us from
a lot of the broader marketchanges that happen. So while I was
saddened, I guess in a waywe've seen that happen with odd members
of the group, you know, overthe years that I've been involved
where you're like, wow, Ididn't see that one coming. And again,
I haven't spoken with themdirectly, so I don't know internally
(09:48):
what was happening. But I cancertainly speculate that, you know,
the online business has gottena lot more challenging than it used
to be.
Yeah, I connected with Danathrough LinkedIn. She has expressed
some interest potentially incoming on the show down, down the
road. We'll see. No pressure,of course, Dana, but we'd love to
have you. And same thing withthe folks in Portland. You guys are.
Anybody from that. That shopwould be welcome to come on to talk
(10:09):
about it. You know, a bigworry of mine prior to this, I've
said it on, I think on thepodcast before, is who's going to
open new shops. It seems that,like, if a retailer doesn't turn
the keys over to newmanagement and they simply close,
kind of, that's it. And whenwe spoke about this on Monday's episode
of the Rock Fight, you know,producer Dave talked about how actually
there is a new shop that'sopening in Portland, which is, you
(10:30):
know, losing next adventure.Then I also learned this week, talking
to a rep in the Midwest, thatthis past spring a new store opened
up in Minneapolis, which lostMidwest mountaineering Not that long
ago, it's not right now, Ithink it's an appointment only shop
in Minneapolis. But it feltlike for a city like that to lose
a Midwest mountaineering like,God, what a gaping hole in sort of
the landscape of, like,outdoor retail. I mean, do you think
(10:50):
some of these new stores aresigns that, you know, more outdoor
shops are coming, or do youthink maybe these are outliers?
Well, I think it's probably alittle both, to be honest with you.
I think it's probably marketdependent in a lot of cases. Where
is there room in a marketplacefor somebody to come in with a very,
very tight perspective orpoint of view on what they want to
do? You have to have enoughpeople to make that work. You can't
(11:12):
probably go into many markets.I think it would be challenging to
go into LA and open upsomebody to compete with an REI and
the costs of doing that. Andby that, I mean a more general specialty
outdoor store, where I thinkif you're in a marketplace that has
room for a true core specialtyclimbing shop or a running store
(11:35):
or. You know, the old adagethat I heard a long time ago was
that, you know, in thebeginning you could only buy golf
clubs at the golf course. Andthen it sort of evolved, and you
could buy golf clubs at thesort of general sporting goods store,
had a golf department.
Right.
And then it sort of evolvedinto Golf USA and the big golf megastores.
(11:56):
And now, you know, in Phoenix,there are stores that don't sell
anything but golf balls.Right, right, right, right. And they're
they're 3 or 400 square feet,and it's a dude sitting behind a
desk and, you know, and he'smaking it work. And so I think my
balls. Exactly. I think it'sjust continuing to evolve, you know,
and I, I, I mean, I'moptimistic in general that, that
(12:18):
brick and mortar specialtystores like mine, you know, we bring
something to the table thatbrands just can't duplicate. Right.
And so what we're trying to dois find that intersection with value
and consumers, like, where dothey see what we do as being valuable?
And I think, you know, wefound our own path. And people in
grassroots are doing somethings differently than we are. Some
(12:40):
of them are doing the same.You know, we, as you know, have had
a lot of success with resale.And you talk ad nauseam about it
on your, on your podcast.
It was impressive. I lovedyour resale. I'm like, guys, everyone
go to Trailhead. You got tosee the resale section. It's Incredible.
Well, yeah.
The thing I, of course, alwayslook over my shoulder at is as vendors
work harder and harder to tryto make it work for them, we keep
(13:03):
going. It's just not built forvendors to do online. If there was
ever a piece of business thatspecialty brick and mortar could
just do better, it's that onething. And I would love to see brands
double down on that and say,we're going to support resale in
all of our specialty stores inGrassroots. We think everybody should
(13:25):
have a component of it. Youknow, my daughter, who's. Who started
that, and she and the guy thatruns it are going to do an education
session at the next Connecttrade show.
Oh, that's great.
About how to set up, you know,because for us, it was really about
not building a new business,but how do you integrate a piece
of it into what you're doing?So, you know, there. There are these.
These little nuggets of. Ofbright light that I see that I think
(13:47):
on the whole, you know,specialty is in a really pretty good
place relative to everyone.
I think a lot of people, maybethe more influential voices at brands
kind of need to kind ofrecognize what's happening and maybe
and sometimes get out of theway, right? Because when you do step
back and look at things andit's really interesting, like, I
think everybody, the people ofour generation who grew up in this
industry and look at your shopand say, that's it. That's the model.
(14:10):
And I'm like, I'm not. I saidthis on Monday's pod. I don't know
if that's the model anymore.You have a really unique thing where
you are and what you haveaccess to. And I think about. You
mentioned the golf analogy youjust said is really interesting because
someone else, actually, thesame rep who told me about what happens
going on in Minneapolis wasalso talking about how, hey, think
about climbing gyms, right?Climbing gyms now are not just, you
(14:30):
know, people who want to goand train to go outside. They are
sort of outdoor hubs for acommunity. And think about if you
go to a climbing gym. The lastthree pairs of rock climbing gym
shoes I purchased were at arock climbing gym because I probably
needed my kids outgrew theirshoes or whatever it was. I wasn't
thinking, I'll wait to goorder online or go to REI or go to
Nomad Ventures down the streetor whatever. I said, no, I'm here
(14:52):
at the gym. I'm going to gobuy those shoes that are right there.
And it's like that That Iwonder if there's almost a return
to form to that, but then alsojust the kind of generalist expectations
of the assortments in shops. Ithink it's just changed forever.
I mean, unless your shopspecializes in something where it's
located, like your shop is ina particular place that demands a
specific assortment, what'swrong with that sort of softer assortment
(15:14):
that will drive what it willbe successful in most shops anyway?
You know what I mean? Youknow, I'm kind of getting at. I think
that's sort of. And I do thinkthere's some people in the industry,
especially in the brand front,who still just kind of want to say,
like, no specialty retailneeds to be that hard goods assortment
and that footwear assortment.It's like, yeah, but why not assort
based off of what's near thestore and the consumer's there? I
don't know, there's just toomany more options to kind of pigeonhole
(15:37):
it into one thing anymore.
Yeah, I mean, I do think youas a retailer, you run a risk of
doing like losing the corevalues of what somebody walks into
a store like ours for. I mean,you walk in and we have hard goods
up front. We want to tellpeople that's what we do. We know,
you know, we've got all thisgreat clothing and we, you know,
we have all this stuffhappening. But at the end of the
(15:59):
day, I, I think part of ouridentity is to show people that no,
we care about this gear. Like,we love this gear and we're going
to help you figure out whatthe right piece of it is, you know,
and that's, I mean, it'scertainly challenging. But I think
the shops, you know, that,that I've seen that have gone away
from that, you know, then, youknow, they just, I mean, there's
(16:20):
a lot of business to be had insome markets there. And again, I
think it's really marketdependent. And, you know, I've been
in Missoula for 40 some yearsnow and have a pretty good sense
for what our community wantsfrom us.
Right.
You know, and so I don't knowthat it's really about me driving
that as much as it is aboutconsumers that come in. But, you
know, what we hear from peopleall the time that walk in our front
(16:42):
door, especially in the summerwhen we have visitors, is, God, we
don't have anything like thisat home. Like, you know, we got an
REI or we got, you know, thisother store that does a lot of clothing,
but we don't have anybody thathas, you Know, a wall of backpacks
or 11 kinds of backpackingstoves or, you know, the sort of
stuff that, you know,honestly, we don't really make a
lot of money selling thatstuff, but it really is. It's part
(17:05):
of our identity, and it's.It's a core component to what we
bring to the table for brands.
But there's a local demand,though, too, right? Because I think.
And I get that. And if I. Ifyou're from a place where, you know,
maybe the outdoor activitiesaren't as rich as they are in Missoula,
and you walk into your localREI or shop and it's mostly, you
know, cool pants, nodisrespect, cool. And like. And Merrell
hiking shoes. Right. I getwhy, then walk into your shop, you're
(17:27):
like, holy shit, this is anoutdoor store. But then it's also,
if I'm the person who ownsthat store, that local store, that
is a little softer focusedbecause the activities just don't
support it. Because, you know,you know, okay, if I stock ice axes
and backpacks, but I sell twoof them a year, you know, because
I can go on to garage growngear or any number of outdoor sites
and procure that stuff foranybody going on, like, a destination
(17:49):
trip, you know, do I reallywant to tie up that much money in
inventory that just isn'tgoing to move, right. Versus I think
there's other ways you cankind of service those people. Like,
how do you bring attention tothose categories without maybe overextending
yourself on the inventoryfront? And I think that might just
be more the era that we'reheading towards, because I think
ultimately what we do agree onis what is the experience, Right?
And Owen mentioned this on theshow on Monday, too. It's like, it's
(18:11):
that just that. That vibe youget in when you walk in a shop and
you're like, okay, I'm inhere. And now I just really want
to go do something outdoor.Ultimately, what your. I think the
mission should be for a goodoutdoor retailer, I mean, that's.
Certainly what our mission is.We want people to walk in and walk
out of here being like, oh,man, let's go on a hike. This is
really inspiring. And we'relucky because we live in this place
(18:34):
that's at a nexus of a wholebunch of different kinds of activities.
And I think what I see thechallenge is if you're trying to
have a store, and I don't wantto pick on la, but in la, you know,
it's. It's. It's a largerbarrier to get people from your front
door to an activity that islogically adjacent to the category
(18:55):
that you're selling.
Well, okay, LA is aninteresting example and this has
been kind of surprisingthings. I've been in Southern California
for five years now. I'm reallyfortunate that where I live I do
have nomad ventures nearby. SoI have a really solid, you know,
outdoor gear shop that I cango shopping at. I don't have to be
overly reliant on REI andDick's when I want to have that retail
experience. But the thing thatI think is misunderstood about Southern
California is how mountain itis and how much outdoor opportunity
(19:17):
there really is. And I. Andalso then it's very populous so you
would think, okay, there's amillion like fuzz shops. Like why
can't we have a few moreoutdoor stores? I don't, I don't
really know why there's thisdearth of outdoor shops in this area.
I mean, if you want to put itin downtown la, I agree with you.
But in the surrounding area,you think, man, I feel like we could
support more stores here, butthere's just no outdoor shops anymore
(19:39):
here. Ever since a 16 left,it's like, no, we're, we're not going
to even try. And I'mwondering, curious why that is. I'm
not saying that you have theanswers, but I've always been really
curious like why we don't havemore outdoor shops in Southern California.
Well, yeah, I mean, I wouldjust say this is that the places
that I've been to that havehad very successful, robust outdoor
gear marketplaces oftentimesare close to destinations that people
(20:03):
are specifically going to skior they're going to climb or they're
going, you know, and you go toa place like LA and there's so many
other distractions withinthose communities that people are
spending their money on thatyou gotta be a pretty core person
to want to, you know, seek outa shop in a place like that where
it's just, you know, it'sgoing to be a drive.
Right, right. Plus then, youknow, backcountry put that shop in
(20:27):
the Grove, which was just aterrible idea because it was not
a great looking store either.Anyway. Actually it was a good looking
store, which is a badassortment. Anyway.
Well, we could go down thatroad for a long time.
Sorry. Shots fired inbackcountry. Moving in the Goa piece
of it all. Like, so I'veposited on the show and probably,
I think even when Gabe MeyerCame on. I wonder if GOA has kind
of the weight or the abilityto be a more vocal group, maybe put
(20:49):
some pressure back on thebrands. That would maybe raise the
value of a brand's presence inGOA stores and thus elevating specialty
retail in general. As a GOAdealer and someone sitting on the
GOA board, I mean, do youthink that the organization could
do more to raise the profileof specialty dealers and kind of
leverage what you guys do as agroup with outdoor brands?
Man, we're trying, yes. Imean, I think we can, but I think
(21:12):
that's something that's,that's central to what we talk about
as an organization. And youknow, we're, I mean we want, we want
all specialty to do better.And so we, you know, while Grassroots
is a relatively exclusivegroup, you know, we have about 105
shares, owners of, you know,the people have stores, you know,
that number changes a littlebit based on the, you know, losing
(21:35):
a store, gaining a store, orthe board of directors can adjust,
add additional share. So, youknow, I mean, at this point, frankly,
we're running the largesttrade show for outdoor in America.
I mean we, you know, weliterally, I think in some ways are.
It's sort of us and REI or usand the rei, Dick's kind of side
(21:57):
of the business. You know, werepresent something that brands,
you know, I mean, they need tobe in store. You know, a brand told
me one time, they said, youknow, if we're doing well on specialty
and Grassroots store, on thefloor of Grassroots stores, we know
we're doing well becausethat's the most competitive market
that we could ever put ourproduct on the floor in. And if we
do well there, that meanswe're probably going to do well in
(22:19):
the broad market. If specialtyis not picking up our product for
some reason or it's not doingwell against a competitor, then that's
a really important time for usto look back. And I think, you know,
we bring a level ofauthenticity and two party validation
to products in our stores thatyou just can't buy in a D2C format
(22:41):
or an online format becausethere's just so much noise. And when
people walk in and they seethat curated collection. Yeah, I
mean, I do think brandsunderstand how important specialty
is and I hear it all the time.We really want Grassroots to be successful.
We want you guys to bestronger. Should we have a bigger
voice in the overall industry?Probably we're not consumer facing
at all. Like there's no signon our door that says, you know,
(23:05):
we're like, you know, when yougo to an independent brewery, there's
a little sign on the door thatsays, we're a member of the Independent
brewers association, you know,so I think there's opportunity for
a more consumer facing side ofit. But that's, you know, those are
lifts that as an organizationwe're just continuing to talk about
and work on every day.
It is funny for all the, youknow, the discourse around like shows
(23:25):
and things like that, youknow, for the Connect show, which
I would wager pre Covid. Imean, how much of the industry, largely
speaking, was even aware ofthe Connect show, right? I mean the
people, the people with thebrand who needed to know were there.
Right. It's kind of like theoverall general awareness of GOA
Connect. I mean, less than 20%maybe. You know, I think you could
probably argue was pretty,pretty small. Like the people who
(23:46):
who needed to know knew andthat was it. And now I hear I get
asked a lot. Oh, we went toConnect. Like what was it? Should
I, should I go to that? Youknow, like, like people don't even
quite get like what the. Whatit is yet, but it's becoming a little
bit more of a common topic.And I've said, you know, the folks,
I think even at Switchback orwhatever, I'm like, figure out a
way to co locate with JoaConnect if you want your show to
be relevant. I'm not sure I.Not that you guys would ever even
(24:07):
agree to that, but it's justlike everybody you would want to
have at your show is going toConnect. So like, that is definitely,
I think the, the set you guysare setting the bar for what, you
know, an event should be rightnow in terms of on the trade side
anyway, in 2025.
Well, you know, of all thetrade shows that have existed and
I don't really want to go downthe trade show rabbit hole that far.
(24:28):
No, I didn't either. It wasn'ton my list to do today, but, you
know.
Yeah, but I think the thingthat we just talked about today was
of all the trade shows thathave been in existence, Connect is
the one trade show that hasthis laser focused mission. It was
built by retailers for ourneeds. It answers what we want to
get done at a trade show. Andthe question is, could a broader
(24:51):
trade show still do that?Like, that's the.
I don't think so.
I think, I mean that's thechallenge that I think we're all
faced with is I thinkeverybody recognizes. Sure. It'd
be wonderful to go back to thedays where we had those amazing networking
events at or, but you know, weweren't doing the kind of work we're
(25:13):
doing at Connect at all.
Try to, I think there's stilllike, we've said it with like such.
We switch back and you'reright, we shouldn't go on a total
rabbit hole with trade shows.But it is like recognize what the
event is for and if the eventis for getting together, that's not,
That's a worthy initiative.Right. But to your point, my two
favorite things, events I'vebeen to in the last few years, GOA
(25:34):
Connect and then the OMA MediaSummit. I'm not Media Summit. Media
Media event. Because it'slaser focused about what it's about.
You come here for this andit's like, okay, good. I know, I'm,
I know why I'm spending moneyto show up at this event. Right.
And then if the other, if likea switchback or somebody can grow
to be that sort of biggathering where it's like, well,
you got to go to that becauselike, that's what we do every year.
(25:54):
That's great too. I'm on boardwith that. I endorse that. But you
know, that needs to be earnedover time for sure.
Yeah, yeah. And I, you know, Ithink, yeah, I mean there's, there's
lots of pieces to it, but Ithink, you know, that re vendors
are going to tend to show upwhere retailers want to be to do
business. And so if you canfigure out how to make that happen,
you know, there's probably asolution to this problem that we're
(26:16):
all trying to solve for andwe're part of it. You know, we're
not the outdoor industry.Like, we get that. And one of the
things that we continue towork on at Grassroots is to make
sure that we go back to thatNorth Star of, you know, what is
Grassroots? What are we doing?Why are we here? What's our mission?
And make sure that we sort oftruth test everything we get asked
to do against that.
(26:37):
That's why I think you guysshould kick in the door in some of
these brands and be like,listen, GOA is doing this across
the board. Get on board withit or you're out. That brand's out
of our stores. You're out.
Yeah, well, you know, like, atthe end of the day, I like to joke
that I'm the low volume, highmaintenance guy that you're going
to deal with. I'm a total painin the ass. But, you know, I don't
(26:59):
do Very much business either.I want a lot. You're not going to
get much out of it.
Why do we think this guy's soimportant? I don't. Have you seen
the. Have you seen the. Thepos. Not great.
No, not great.
All right. Hey, listen, Iappreciate you joining me today.
I do have one question for youbefore we leave because this is a
bit of a teaser. This is goingto come out on Friday the 5th. On
Monday's episode, we're doingthis. We're going to do a little
(27:21):
kind of predictions episode.And so I'm going to ask you now as
a teaser for that Mondayepisode, so, you know, kind of universally
accepted this year that, like,you know, the comeback story of the
year was Mountain Hardware.Right. It started a bit last year.
Right. But everybody kind ofpretty happy with where Hardware
has gotten to, given where itwas over the past decade or so. So
we're going to make ourpredictions. Fall 26. You know, the
Mountain Hardware comebackaward winner will be. And I'm going
(27:44):
to give you 10 options. Youtell me who you think it's going
to be. All right? On the listwe have Marmot, Columbia, Nike, Choco,
Under Armour, TNF Vans, HydroFlask, Black Diamond, Prana, or Solo
Stove. Now, I know there'sprobably some on there that maybe
you don't carry in your shop,but they all sort of. We wanted to
(28:05):
go with, like, publicly tradedcompany people. We could really kind
of track their finances to seehow they would do.
Yeah.
So that list, is there anybodywho jumps out as, like, that's gonna
be the next year's Mountain Hardware?
Absolutely. Yeah. Blackdiamond for sure.
Yeah.
You know, I mean, I will tellyou that, you know, this business
has always been aboutrelationships. And, you know, we
(28:25):
had completely stopped buyingBlack Diamond. We left them, which
is crazy for a shop. This was,you know, my account number with
Black diamond is the same asmy account number with Patagonia.
I mean, we've been doingbusiness since they were one company.
And we stopped for about twoyears. We stopped buying product.
And, you know, I trust theteam of people running that business
(28:45):
right now more than I havetrusted any team running any business
that I do business with in adecade or more. Neil's the real deal.
I mean, he is like a straightshooter. And I think that. That if
they play their cards right,you know, I think there's an opportunity
there that doesn't exist.
Yeah.
For other. For other people,sure, I do. I will. I got to throw
(29:06):
out, though, that, you know,the Mountain Hardware thing The national
sales manager for MountainHardware was my heart or my apparel
buyer for about 14 years.
Oh, we're taking credit. Ilove it.
So fully taking credit for thesuccess of Mountain Hardware because
she took the mission to thoseguys and said if you want to get
back into special. Now to befair, we don't buy Mountain Hardware
here because we have a largeregional chain based in Montana that
(29:30):
has had a big hardwarecommitment. And the second that they
don't buy it, we'll buy backin. But you know, one of the long
term tenants I've always hadis that if I truly want to be special,
be called a specialty outdoorstore, people need to walk in my
store and see brands that theydon't see everywhere else in town.
And you know, we have a largestate like level retailer and then
(29:54):
we also have shields andbetween the two of them there's not
a lot of room left for us tofind things that nobody else carries.
I mean it's gotten right, youknow, but they're out there and we
just have to work harder at itand you know, it's riskier. So you
know, we have. Yeah, it's agood balance. Right. But fully credit
for the Mountain Hardwarething, I'm just going to put that
out there. Troy can call me ifhe wants and argue with me, but I'm
(30:16):
going.
To say Aaron, no, I think TroyPsychot, president of Mountain Hardware.
Where's, where's, you know,where's Todd's kickback? You know,
he can't carry your brand. Youbetter make sure you're sending some
checks to Missoula.
You know, I trained Aaron onwhat it means to be a specialty retailer.
Of course she went on to do awhole bunch of other amazing things
afterwards. So, you know, fullcredit to her as a, as an amazing
(30:38):
person.
I get her on the phone, she'slike Todd who? What?
Yeah, exactly.
I don't know. I never lived inMissoula. I don't know what you're
talking about. But the.
Right.
Yeah.
Never heard of him.
Well, we might have to. Imight, I might have to eliminate.
But I, I agree. I think Blackdiamond is the, the hands down favorite.
You know that would just be.You wouldn't make any money if you
bet on them in Vegas. You knowI think they're because. And I agree
with the Neil, Neil, formerguest of the pod, just legit leader
(30:59):
and doing all the right thingsthere. We may have to take him take
Black diamond off the list forMonday's episode because it just
seems like it's it's too. It'sjust too obvious. It's not gonna
be a fun conversation. Sothat's what I thought you were gonna
say.
But, yeah, no, I loveColumbia's new. New campaign. I think
it's fantastic. You guys did abunch of work on it, and, you know,
we haven't bought Columbia andprobably close to 30 years here at
(31:19):
the store. But that doesn'tmean I don't have a ton of respect
for, like, trying to figureout how to be in the right place
at the right time.
And it sounds like talking toMatt Sutton, who came on last week,
that, you know, that. That ifthey're gonna see this through, maybe
you would rethink that. Theirgoal would be to make you rethink
that. Right. And I actuallygot in. It was some guy who was getting
into it with me on this, onthe whole campaign on LinkedIn, and
(31:40):
he's like, did you think aboutbuying anything after you saw the
video? I'm like, actually, Ikind of did. I immediately went to
the website to see what theirassortment looked like because it
made me interested in thebrand. So it did make me want to.
I didn't, but I also was. Idefinitely looked. Yeah.
I mean, I think, you know,when. When we look at why brands
make sense for our stores, canwe tell a story about that brand?
You know?
Right.
I mean, you know, if theSandal guys we tell a story about
(32:02):
because they're from Missoula,you know, the Mystery Ranch pack
guys, because they are fromBozeman, I mean, there's, you know,
there's a lot of stories thatwe get to tell about why we support
a particular brand. And, youknow, if you have a good story to
tell retailers, you know, we.We can kind of. We have our choice.
We can sell almost anything.So give us a good story and give
us a place to sell somethingnobody else has in the market or
(32:25):
at least is not grossly overdistributed, and we'll find a way
to sell it.
Todd, thanks for taking a fewminutes to hang out with me today.
Yeah, thank you. We'll talk soon.
All right, that's the show fortoday. Thanks to my guest, Todd Frank.
What do you think about all ofthis sense? Send us your emails to
myrockfightmail.com we want tohear all about it, especially if
(32:46):
you're a retailer, if you're abrand, if you're one of those curmudgeons
I talked about earlier thatthinks the industry is going down
the toilet. Send me youremails. Myrockfightmail.com. the
Rock fight's a production ofrock fight llc. I'm Colin true. Thanks
for listening. And back toclose us out and take you into the
weekend is the voice of therock fight Krista makes with the
rock fight fights song. We'llsee you next time. Rock fighters.
(33:18):
Welcome to the rock fightwhere we speak our truth, slay sacred
cows and sometimes agree todisagree. We talk about human powered
outdoor activities and bigfights about topics that that we
find interesting like popculture music, the latest movie reviews,
(33:39):
ideas that aim for the head.This is where we speak our truth.
This is where we speak ourtruth. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock
fight. Welcome to the rockfight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Welcome
to the rock fight. Rock fight.Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.
(34:00):
Rock fight. Welcome to therock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.
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