October 10, 2025 • 43 mins
Today on The Rock Fight, Colin digs into the question: what the hell is an “emerging brand” anyway?
Joined by Emily Holland (Founded Outdoors) and Lloyd Vogel (Garage Grown Gear), the conversation talks about what life is really like for small outdoor businesses.
- Defining “Emerging”: Why the term is so fuzzy and whether it even matters.
- Founded Outdoors: How the organization is creating a free, vibrant community (and consulting arm) to support founders, minimize gatekeeping, and provide resources for early stage outdoor companies.
- Success & Failure: Why most small brands don’t flame out dramatically, but quietly fade away and how expectations play a huge role.
- Product vs. Brand: The chicken-and-egg debate. Do you lead with killer gear, or build a story first?
- Why Small Brands Matter: Faster innovation, closer ties to real community needs, and local economic impact.
They also debate whether the outdoor industry is too insular, how outside perspectives (Sephora anyone?) could add value, and why supporting small brands doesn’t always mean paying a premium.
Thanks for listening! The Rock Fight is a production of Rock Fight, LLC.
Sign up for NEWS FROM THE FRONT, Rock Fight's semi-weekly newsletter by heading to www.rockfight.co and clicking Join The Mailing List.
Please follow and subscribe to The Rock Fight and give us a 5 star rating and a written review wherever you get your podcasts.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
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(01:32):
speak our truth, sleaze sacredcows and sometimes agree to disagree.
This is an outdoor podcastthat aims for the head. I'm Colin
True and today we're talkingabout emerging brands. And what does
that even mean? But first,some programming reminders. We never
want you to miss an episode ofthe Rock Fight, so please click Follow
on the podcast app you'reusing right now. This Thursday you're
(01:53):
gonna get an all new episodeof Gear Abbey with host Shantae Salibair
who answers all of youroutdoor burning questions. Be sure
also to follow Gear Abby andif you have a question for Gear Abby,
send it toher@deargearabbymail.com also follow
that podcast on this app thatyou're using right now as well. And
lastly, if you want more fromthe Rock Fight Podcast network, head
to Rockfight Co and sign upfor News from the Front our semi
(02:15):
weekly letter. And if you'dlike to see some video clips from
our episodes, head over toInstagram and find us there. Where
we are rockflight company tofollow along. But for today, you
know, pretty often in ouroutdoor industry conversations we
talk in big broad strokes whendescribing the brands that make up
the industry. On one side wehave the incumbent big outdoor brands
like the North Face, Marmot orMountain Hardware, and then everyone
(02:37):
else tends to get labeled asemerging brands, which I think we
all just assume means younger,more upstart brands who are looking
to become as entrenched as aPatagonia or Outdoor Research. But
a good amount out of thesebrands are well beyond emerging,
and in fact they're fullyemerged and are established in their
own right. Maybe not to thedegree as some of the big guys, but
why does that matter so longas they have a customer base that
(02:59):
loves them and as a businessare earning their right to survive.
So really who we're talkingabout in that regard are the startups,
the brands who haven't maybequite earned that right to survive
yet and are looking for aconstant edge to help them get to
that place. Since we spend somuch time here on the Rock fight,
talking about the big economicdriving brands, and rightfully so,
because they are driving ourindustry's economy, I wanted to dig
(03:21):
into this notion aboutemerging brands a little more. So
today we're bringing in twodifferent points of view on the topic,
and both of them you've heardhere before on the podcast. First,
we have Emily motherfuckingHolland, and those are her words.
I want to clarify. I wasrequired by contract to say it that
way. Emily wears a ton of hatsin our space, and one of those hats
is the Management of CommunityEngagement for Founded Outdoors and
(03:42):
Found. It is an organizationthat exists to help new outdoor industry
founders along theirentrepreneurial journey. And second's
our guy, Trader Lloyd Vogel.The Trader Lloyd part. Those are
actually our words. You know,Lloyd as the CEO of Garage Grown
Gear, the online retailerwhere a ton of their vendors are
young and emerging brands.Both Emily and Lloyd are here to
chat with me today. Although Ishould mention that we recorded this
(04:05):
before the announcement wasmade about outdoor retailer moving
to Minneapolis. So if you'rewondering why we didn't touch base
on that with Lloyd, there yougo. But let's get into it. Welcome
back to the Rock Fight, wheretoday it's what the hell is an Emerging
Brand Anyway? With EmilyHolland and Lloyd Vogel. And that's
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All right, we are here with acouple of returning champions of
the Rock fight. We got EmilyHolland, who has on her founded Outdoors
Hat, which is, I think, hatnumber 856 of the more than 1000
(07:03):
hats that she wears, as wellas the CEO of Garage Grown Gear,
the Dyneema enthusiasthimself, Lloyd Vogel, is back on
the show. Welcome back, guys.Good to have you back here.
Thanks for having us.
Yeah, good to be back. Let'sjust talk over each other, Lloyd,
the entire time. It's funnythat I'm the one who wears the hats
because Lloyd wears a hatevery single day of his life. That's
(07:25):
true. He actually probablydoes have a thousand hats, so.
But you do turn up across theoutdoor industry, Emily. It's kind
of like there's a thinghappening. It's like, oh, Emily's
involved.
You know, she's.
She's here once again. Wecan't get rid of her. She's just
always showing up.
Is that a good penny, badpenny situation? What is it?
Yeah. I don't know. That mustbe a Gen X saying. I don't really
know what that means.
(07:45):
What's a penny? Do we use this anymore?
Coin. I'm confused.
Oh, you were born in the 70s.I did just turn 50.
Yes, I know. And I've told youmany times, your hair is incredible,
especially for your age. Let'smove on.
Colin, I'm a little worried.Are you going to like it as much
when it goes completely gray?That' I'm worried about.
(08:06):
Oh, I'm gonna love it evenmore. That's like, especially because
it's so straight. It's like,so silver fox. You're gonna be such
a silver fox. Yeah, I love it.I feel fine saying that. Yeah.
Personal satisfaction when youlose all of your hair and join the
ranks of bald men like myself.
Well, guys, we're talkingabout emerging brands because both
of you obviously involved inemerging brands. I think we, Lloyd,
(08:28):
before we hit record, made agood point of, like, what is an emerging
brand. That's an interestingconversation starter right there.
But I do want to. And I dowant to start by defining who we're
even talking about, becausethe outdoor industry was not built
on outdoor pursuits really. Itwas built more on the brands who
are seen as enabling ouroutdoor pursuits. And our brands
are really the celebrities ofour space, with many of us looking
(08:48):
to get jobs at those brands.And then when we have those jobs,
our friends and families sortof geek out when you tell them where
you work. And the point beingthat there's a real weight to being
an outdoor active brand. And Iimagine that attracts a lot of folks
who want to try and make it inour space. And so when you think
about someone looking atentering the space, creating an outdoor
(09:09):
and active brand, you know,what does that look like? What, what
is, I mean, to Lloyd to yourquestion, like, what is an emerging
brand look like? Is it theproduct? Is it the positioning? Is
it really the desired point ofdistribution? Like, what are we even
talking about when we'retalking about these new brands?
Yeah, I mean, I think it'skind of arbitrary to some extent.
Like, I think it largely hasto do with what perspective on the
industry you have. Like, ifyou are someone who only has familiarity
(09:32):
with the big companies in thisspace, you could look at, you know,
companies with $100 million ofrevenue and be like, oh yeah, the
small players in this space.And then I think, you know, if you
go down into the garage growngear world of things, you know, our
small makers might do lessthan $250,000 in revenue. And when
(09:54):
those folks look at a bigbrand, that might mean $5 million
in revenue. So I think thereis kind of an arbitrary nature to
it and there's like so manydifferent terminology, parts of terminology
that get slung around withthat if that's small, if that's startup
cottage emerging. And I thinkall really kind of just have different
associations, but none of themhave particularly clear definitions.
(10:16):
And I think people try to puttheir own definition on it and I
don't think it really matters.I think some, like, I don't identify
it as a, a startup to me thatlike has connotations of like tech
and money and newness and it'svery product centered. But I also
don't identify as emergingbecause I don't really know what
that is.
(10:37):
It's like you're giving birth.
It'S emerging. I am here.
I have birthed this brand. Iwas like, what does that mean?
Yeah, yeah, I don't really.And like emerging I think implies
like some form of goal thatyou are emerging towards.
Yeah.
And I'd say most of thebusiness owners that I know don't
(10:59):
necessarily like, when haveyou, if you're emerging, when have
you actualized, like, isn'tthat just like constantly a state
of, of being in flux? So Imean, I identify as being a small
business owner. I identify ashaving a lot of the brands that are
in the garage grown gearsphere as being small. And I think
it is something that you kindof identify as. It's not a label
(11:21):
anyone can just slap on you.It's like, if you identify as a startup.
Sweet. If you want to feellike you're emerging, cool, emerge
and you know, do whatevermakes you feel seen great. I think
my only real beef is when youhave brands that are like suddenly
it's Small Business Saturdayand you've got some, you know, $500
(11:42):
million company being likesupport our small brand and you're
like, right, feels a little off.
So typically an outdoor brandthough that has any clout is like
kind of looking to solve aproblem though we're trying, if we're
trying to hone in on like whata brand actually does and then you
how an emerging brand mightfit into that. You know, enthusiasts
looking for better solutionsor more comfortable ways of going
outside. So when I look atwhat Found It Outdoor does and Emily,
(12:04):
I'm kind of curious like howdo you, when you hear some of that
of like sort of like thediscourse around like what an emerging
brand is, like who are thepeople who come to Found It Outdoors?
Like how do these folks whomaybe have good ideas come to an
organization like FoundedOutdoors to kind of get a leg up
versus in the past it waslike, well I guess I'm going to try
to make this thing and seewhat happens.
Yeah, I think that the Lloyd'sreally spot on. Like it's so different.
The definitions are all overthe place and it also almost doesn't
(12:28):
really matter in a way. ForFounded Outdoors the way that we
think about the community isnot really about if they're calling
themselves emerging or small.We personally call them small because
most of our brands that are inthe community are definitely making
less than 500k annually topline revenue. Right. And many of
(12:52):
them are less than 5 million,less than 10 million. And that's
like the highest, highestrange. Like the very few are making
that. So it's not really aboutlike their size or their stage. But
they have to be activelyworking on their business. They can
still be like prototyping and,and working on pre launch, pre revenue,
(13:12):
that's fine. But they alsoneed to be targeting the outdoor
consumer as their main targetaudience. There are some folks that
have like multiple targetaudiences, that's fine. But they
need to have outdoor as one oftheir main. And so we, we look at
it a little less of like sizeand time spent in your business because
there's some businesses toothat have been in business for five
(13:34):
years and they've made verylittle headway. Maybe they've still
had a full time job. They'rejust doing it on the side. They can't
fully go in yet. Fine. Butthere's some people who in their
first year are getting hugeorders at REI and like fully, you
know, locked in. So theparameters of small are kind of up
(13:54):
to our discretion, I wouldsay. But for the most part, people
come to Found it outdoors whenthey're very early on or within those
like first five years, I wouldsay, and get the most value in those
first five years.
So what, what are some of thethings that found it offers some
of the folks that come to youguys. Emily, like what, what are
some of the actual. Like if Ihave started a brand, whether it's,
you know, Lloyd, to yourpoint, small, medium, large, whatever.
(14:15):
But I kind of fit into thatcriteria that you're looking for.
What, what are the, what isthe offering to a person like that?
Yeah. So Founded Outdoors hastwo parts of the business. I would
say the first part is thecommunity, which is more of what
I think we're talking abouttoday. And that's a free space for
anyone, like I said, who hasalready started their business and
their main target audience isthe outdoor consumer. So when they
(14:38):
come in, the main thing thatwe offer, I would say is peer to
peer knowledge sharing andhaving a space for people to do that
in a way that's veryactionable and engaged. So we have
a huge Slack channel. By huge,I mean it's around 530 people and
people are really popping offin there. Like there are so many
(15:00):
questions, so many greatinsights being shared. There's a
lot of connections being madeand if I do say so myself, it's one
of the best Slack channels outthere. I'll just toot my own horn
in that situation. But it'samazing. It's amazing how much people
give and take and it's a freecommunity. Right. Some people say,
like for community you need tohave it paid for people to invest
in it. And I just don't thinkthat that's fully true. We've kind
(15:24):
of proven that it's notnecessarily true and we're keeping
that free as of right now. So.
So like you can. Almostanybody can take advantage of that.
If you have an. Or if you'vestarted an outdoor brand or you want
to start an outdoor brand,that's just a resource that's out
there for people to tap into.
Yes, if they are aspiring andhave an idea, but do not yet have
(15:45):
a business plan, prototype, etcetera, that's a bit too early for
us. We've noticed that we needto have them actively working on
their business. To get valueand to also offer value in the community.
So that's a big part of it.And then we do tons of virtual events.
Like we have webinars andworkshops on all kinds of things.
This year alone we've hadsales how to crush trade shows, like
(16:06):
how to deal with the tariffs.And then we partnered up with Lloyd
and Garage Grown Gear to do amonthly webinar series called the
Ascent Series, which is apanel that Lloyd runs usually on
a specific topic that we knowsmall slash emerging slash startups,
slash cottage brands care about.
We definitely need a word. Ithink like you said it was Owen,
(16:27):
it came up with emerging. Ithink you might be right but like
it's just not. There's not agood all encompassing word. Let's
work it. We'll take thisoffline. Sor Emily didn't even know.
Maybe it's a chatgpt job. Youjust put all those in there and just
like say come up with a termfor this. And then finally we, I
mean we try to at least haveextra resources too. So we have a
resource guide that kind ofholds everything that we've done.
(16:50):
It's all of our recordings ofall of our workshops, webinars, anything
people share in there that'shelpful. Full list of any outdoor
events. And then when we areat outdoor events we'll do, you know,
happy hours and try to meet upin person as much as possible. So
that's the community side. Sothat's a lot.
And honestly like it is thebest. I mean as someone who I've
had the privilege ofinteracting with Founded Outdoors
(17:12):
in a lot of different waysover the last couple of years. But
as a free resource, itliterally is like the biggest no
brainer if you are a smalloutdoor business. Like if you are
not part of founded outdoors.I'm not sure exactly like what you're
doing. Like it just, it has somany resources. Like you don't, like
I don't engage all the timewith it, but I try to and I. And
(17:34):
it's something that like caneither be a very active or very passive
part of what you do. The SlackChannel is a great way to be able
to pull knowledge fromhundreds of other founders who have
done it before because we alllike to think that our story is very
unique, but it's, it's reallynot. And like everyone else has pretty
much always had had the samechallenges as you and just being
(17:56):
able to have people,especially you know, if you're a
small solo entrepreneur, beingable to kind of, yeah, have Some
camaraderie and solidaritywith other folks. It's, it's brilliant.
I love it.
So you said that you mentionedthere's two parts of founded outdoors.
You mentioned the communitypart and everything. What is the
other side of the organization?
Yeah, so the other side is ourconsulting and partnership side.
(18:16):
And so we consult witheconomic development groups, outdoor
business alliances, outdoorrec offices, sometimes other nonprofits,
or even county. Differentcounties in different states have
differently namedorganizations, but essentially either
consulting with them, sohelping them to understand what the
needs are and their specificregion, state, area, and then delivering
(18:41):
on that and helping theiroutdoor entrepreneurs get those,
those resources. But then wealso fully do programming on behalf
of those places too. So wehave, have had partnerships with
Alabama, Vermont, Maine,Wisconsin, a small county in California,
(19:03):
Siskiyou, which we're doingsome work with this month, which
is going to be very fun, andsome others, and then of course our
accelerator program with rei.So I just wanted to mention that
too, so that if founders arenot necessarily ready to start their
business just yet, but theyhave an idea or something, we often
have programs in their areaswith our partnerships. So just keeping
(19:23):
an eye out for those might be helpful.
What's the success rate here?Right, because I look, think of like,
look, I'm a founder and like,it just, it's a, and I'll tell you
guys, you guys run your ownbusinesses as well, right? It's a
pretty lonely existence. And Iunderstand that it's the community
aspect of it. Right. But it's,it's not, you know, we all have the
days of like, I'm going totake over the world, then the next
day you're like, I'm going toshut it down and go work at a Starbucks.
(19:43):
You know, like, those arelike, that's sort of the life here.
At the same time, there is anelement of the market's going to
really ultimately determine ifyou're successful or not, if you're,
if your brand makes it, ifyour product is viable, all of those
things. Is there a successrate or is there, is there proof
in the pudding that shows thatlike something this organization
can help folks either get overthose hurdles that are in their way,
(20:05):
or is it just truly more ofthat about that support network to
like, get through those lowmoments that we all have as a founder?
Well, I'd be interested to seeLloyd's perspective is on this, but
I, I, we don't have a successrate that we can share. I mean, we
are here to provide supportand minimize gatekeeping to resources
and there's so many otherfactors that come into play when
(20:27):
someone is successful or notsuccessful in their business. And
also the definition of successis different for everyone. So it's
really hard to quantify that.Yeah, you know, there's kinds of
things that we can't control.Like maybe someone's mental health
is getting in the way of liketheir success. Maybe where they live
is impacting them. There's notas many resources there that they
can tap into, like local bankloans and things like that or whatever.
(20:50):
So we're in the business ofsupporting you, of where you're at
in your journey, and we hopethat that leads you to success. And
we think that this communityand the learnings that we share do
that. However, we're not, youknow, at the end of the day, responsible
for your success. And so we.Yeah, but we hope for it.
What's the gatekeeping that'sgoing on that you, that you're referring
(21:12):
to? Is there somethingspecific that you.
I mean, traditionally, first,this is a little bit of coming from
Silicon Valley and you know,other types of industries too, but
traditionally, who gets accessto resources when it comes to founding
businesses? I see there'sinvestment. Right. Mentorship goes.
Let's guess who they are.White men. We all guessed at the
same time.
(21:32):
Look at that. In the outdoorindustry, you left out skinny, by
the way, in your descriptor, so.
Oh, yes. Yeah. Skinny. Ish.White men. Way fish, if you will.
And so, yeah, we want to makesure that this is a space we do a
lot too. Like even with theAscent series or workshops that we're
(21:56):
doing, people that we have forfireside chats, we really try to
make sure that they are notall white men so that people see
different versions of thejourney that they could take as well.
You know, I, I think it's,it's hard to be able to like, I think
there's kind of the thoughtthat when companies go out of business
that it's like up in flames orthere's some declaration of bankruptcy.
(22:16):
But like most small brandsjust kind of slide into non existence.
You know, they, it's eitherit's too hard, it didn't, it didn't
blow up as quickly as theywanted to. They have another opportunity
that can make them more money.They have a kid and they have to
like, like, you know, coversome new costs that just doesn't
jive with their stage in life.So I think for a lot of small brands
(22:37):
it's just less dramatic. Andso it's hard to be able to account
for what makes it successfulor what makes it fail. Because it's
just up to kind of yeah. Whattheir expectations are. Success for
some of our brands isperpetually being a non growth brand
that just is able to subsistone's lifestyle. And there's a lot
of lifestyle companies outthere that that's what they want
(22:59):
to do. And but for a lot ofbrands like that isn't the goal and
if they did that for a numberof years straight, they would call
it a failure and they wouldquit and shut it down or start something
up or go take another nine tofive. So I mean I think it largely
has to do with kind of whatbrands expectations are and if the
reality lines up in aparticular timeline that that works
(23:22):
for them. So yeah, we've seena lot of companies just come and
go. Sometimes it's because youknow, they just don't have the momentum.
Sometimes they've you know,realized that it's not scalable and
sometimes it's just like, wellactually I got a job working at Microsoft
and it pays me like 10 timesmore and I don't have to work 80
hours a week. So yeah, whywould I not do that?
(23:44):
Well, kind of going back to mything at the beginning right about
the industry is veryinteresting because it is these sort
of passion fueled productsthat fuel outdoor passions and you
can see a lot of overlap andwhy somebody wants to start things.
I got the chance to work witha lot of founders that are my time
at Polartech and like a lot ofnew upstart apparel brands I've talked
about in this podcast before.Like coat epoxy was one of them and
you always feel that sort of,it's, it's, it's much more than the
(24:07):
product typically. Right.Because these people do go outside
and want to use these thingsand I'm like highlighted a need and
like oh, I'm helping to solvethat need. Right. Does this exist
in other categories? Right. Ithink about this like the outdoors.
Is this something that makesthe outdoors unique? Like is there
someone out there is like heyman, I'm making the next great dishwasher.
It's going to be so sick.You're not going to have to rinse
(24:28):
your plates. It's going to bethe best. Like I don't know. This
feels like a very uniquelyoutdoor thing. Am I, am I correct
in that.
I have a little bit of a hottake on this? I don't care. A dishwasher
is improved. I do care,however, if my pants now Have a zipper
that I can just squat and peeand that. That's sick. So I just.
(24:52):
Maybe I just don't knowbecause I just don't care. No, people
are definitely makingimprovements on and like looking
for spots and needs and, andchallenges that people are having
and trying to solve them. Butit's just somehow not as exciting
as someone figuring this tinylittle thing out when they're hiking
the PCT or something. They'relike, you know what would be great?
If I did this thing. And thenthey go to their garage and they're
(25:13):
like, you know, I'm gonna justsew it together and see what happens.
And then they suddenly arelike, wait, this maybe could be good.
And then they talk to a bunchof people and they think it's good
to like, that is such a cooljourney compared to like, if the
blender has a little bitbetter speed. Oh, that's what I mean,
to have chunks in it.
And look, I, I'm fully willingto claim ignorance if somebody wants
(25:36):
to write in myrockfightgmail.com about like, you know, other
industries that have similarthings like founder outdoors or similarly
passion driven founders likeworking on things. But it seems to
me that most of that comes outof like GE and somebody whose job
it is like, hey, make theseappliances better versus to your
point, like the, the wherethese inspirational moments strike
and how then these things cometo market and then obviously then
(25:58):
the resource they can get froma founded outdoors, it just feels
very like this feels foundedoutdoors feels just very uniquely
outdoor. And in fact, in. Inthe point of view that this is innovation
in of itself of hey, here'sall these people who are working
on these things. Let's provideresources to make sure that they
can find success in theirjourney. Right. That's almost in
itself an outdoor sort ofmissive in a way.
I mean, I think to take thedishwasher and run with it, I think
(26:20):
there's a certain expectation.Yeah, I think the ex. There's a certain
expectation with technologythat it's constantly evolving. And
I think that that is somethingthat like you don't pay attention
to it, but you always expectthat your last, your next dishwater
dishwasher is better than yourlast dishwasher. And if you buy a
fridge, it's going to bebetter than your last fridge. And
I think that there's like a.And that's largely big industry like
(26:43):
the R and D that comesbetween, you know, at GE is very
different than what Emilysaid. If someone hiked the pct, it's
more accessible. And I. And Idon't think, like, I think one of
the most awesome things aboutthe outdoor industry, it's a passion,
but it's a passion becauseit's a. It's something that you do
in your personal time firstand you figure out how to be able
to professionalize it. And,like, I don't think anyone is a,
(27:04):
like, you know, a casualdishwasher for fun, and then they
turn that hobby into a passionof, like, yeah.
It'S got a 1972 GE. It's in alime green. Got it at a flea market.
I'm going to refurbish it.It's going to be so sick.
Yeah, like, because it'ssomething that, like, you know, and
I think that's even, you know,if you look at something like cars,
(27:27):
I feel like there's people whowork on cars and there's this, like,
community around, like,antique and, like, fixing things
up and custom stuff. And Ithink that's because there is a level
of hobbyism that is added intoit. And yes, some does make it to
the level of professionalism.But even if you're not a professional,
and I think, like, there is a.You can go to a show like Pacific
(27:48):
Crest Trail Days and talk tosome of the most foremost, you know,
designers in the world. If I'ma, you know, a yahoo playing basketball
in my local gym, which I do,I'm never going to run into LeBron
James. It's just not going tohappen there. And, you know, similarly,
I use a dishwasher. Doesn'tmean I know anyone who, like, designs
dishwashers. Just like, theaccordion of the community is way
(28:10):
smaller. And I think that thatis something that is fairly unique
to the outdoors. I mean, yousee it in, like, in. In biking as
well. Like, bike packs arelike a big kind of cottage industry
of itself. But I think a lotof the outdoor industry has that
kind of proximity becausewe're of the industry. And when people
come from outside of theindustry and try to monetize it,
(28:32):
people's hackles go upimmediately. Or they're like, oh,
that person came in fromSephora. Or that person used to be
at Best Buy and be like, theydon't understand how it works. Well,
you know, here in the outdindustry, they probably don't even
wear flannels or hats. Theyprobably wear, like, suits and ties
and, like, smell good.
You're teeing up my kind of.My last big question here, because
I do think there comes a timewhen the industry can become limiting.
(28:54):
Right. Example always give,you know, because you only. If you
only pull from, like, a small,you know, pool of voices, there might
be things you don't know. Andhonestly, you can't always evaluate
the quality of the voices thatyou're maybe you're listening to.
And I think there's a lot oftimes I'll see outdoor events, and
it's like, just the same folksthat I've seen in the industry for
a long time giving the samespeeches. And I would be like, I
(29:16):
agree with you, Lloyd, inthat. Like, yeah, when you're setting
strategy, you want tounderstand the world that you're
in. And if you're onlylistening to people from outside
the world, that seems like abad idea. But there's a world where,
like, well, this person workedat Sephora. What did they learn about
retail working for a brandlike that? And what are the learnings
that can then apply to, like,our space as well? And.
No, I. I agree with thatfully. I just think that that's what
(29:37):
the industry thinks.
Like, oh, yeah, myself, yes,you're correct.
Like, I don't. I don't feellike I come necessarily from the
outdoor industry. I was, like,in special education and kind of
just bumbled my way into beingon this podcast over a number of
years.
Welcome. We got. We made it.This is the culmination of a long
journey.
Goodness, he's LinkedIn famous.
(29:57):
Yeah, well, you know, my long,illustrious career at Sephora made
me very, you know, qualifiedfor this.
Poor Sephora is taking abeating on this pod.
We love you, Sephora. Thank you.
Are they a new sponsor of the pod?
They're.
Well, welcome to. That's fine.
Taking money from. Forwherever you can get.
Listen, we're not gonna, like,we're really not gonna bag on you
(30:18):
on this show. You may as well,like, you know, tap into the outdoor
scene, you know, but you knowwhat I mean, though, like, that would,
like. I think it becomesimportant at some point to listen
to other voices as well. Youknow, is that an opportunity for,
like, founded outdoors tobring some of those voices in for
the founders that you guyshave involved with the organization?
I think we prioritize keepingit outdoor. However, we do sometimes
(30:39):
bring in folks who are likegeneral marketing person or general
e commerce professional orsales professional. But generally,
like, we want to keep itspecific. However, a lot of people
who share resources in thecommunity, well, they're pretty consistently
not outdoor specific. Like,there might be lessons from, like,
(31:00):
Apple or even, like, maybeoutdoor. Outdoor adjacent, like the
hunting industry or the CPGand food industry. Like, that's a
big one that they shareresources around. But I just want
to go back to like, what makesthese brands a little bit more unique,
I think, and why people whoare listening, if you're like, well,
(31:21):
I don't really. I just want tobuy from Black diamond or whatever
company that you want to buyfrom, I would just consider that
the smaller brands that we'retalking about who are awesome. Here's
a couple things that youshould think about for them. Okay.
They innovate way faster thanthe big brands. They can. Because
while big brands have R and Dbudgets, small brands have no rules
(31:43):
and they can just do whatwhatever they want. And obviously
they need to be compliant withlike legal restrictions, but they
can innovate faster. And soyou might be able to get like a way
cooler product that worksbetter for what you need way faster
than a big brand. So that'snumber one. The next is that they're
so close to the community'sneeds. Like, so many people, especially
in Lloyd's community, but alsoin founded outdoors, were literally
(32:08):
like we just talked about onthe PCT and they decided to do this
thing or they were trying togo camping with their baby and they're
like, I'm going to get Costcoblankets and put it together. And
now they have a business thatdoes that. So they're so close to
what we actually need. Andthey're also open to feedback a lot
of the time. And that'sincredible. I'm just going to keep
going. And so then they alsodrive economic development in these
(32:28):
local areas, whether it betourism or even like Melanzana in
Leadville. Like Leadville,Colorado has become more on the map
because of Melanzana, which isan outdoor apparel brand.
They've been around for a longtime too. Not emerging, I would say
say.
So I just like there's thesereal clear benefits to purchasing
from a small brand that oneshould think about when you're making
(32:49):
those purchasing decisions.And listen, I know it's more convenient
sometimes to get the bigbrand. Like, we all have big brands.
We get it. But just thinkingabout that when you need something
for your next trip, I thinkis. Is really important.
It's also just like not thatmuch more expensive if.
Right.
If it's not even cheaper.Like, I mean, I think there is a
mystique that small brandscome with a premium price point,
(33:09):
but not always. A lot of timesthey don't have wholes margins that
are built into it. So there'sless of a need. I mean like we see
it with fabric design of likewe have companies that are kind of
in the cottage space that are,that are making packs out of cool
fabrics and they're expensive.But then you see a bigger company
come in using that samefabric, it's twice as expensive.
(33:30):
There's a reason why it'stwice as expensive is because it
has keystone pricing builtinto it and because that big brand
has to have. Have you know, a50% margin to be able to get into
the brick and mortar retailspaces that they, that they want
to be able to navigate. Andyou know, your, your favorite small
brand that makes packs onInstagram doesn't need that. They
just need to be able tojustify the fabric costs and their
(33:52):
labor costs. And that's. Thatoftentimes is like. So I don't know,
it's not always just like I'mkind of tired of the narrative of
oh, it's so expensive to beable to support small brands and
be like, well, not really. Imean, unless you're comparing it
to like TEMU prices, well theneverything's expensive.
Compared to that bullshit, youknow? You know.
Yeah, totally.
(34:13):
So I guess, you know, lastthing, guys. So where's are any things
happening this fall anythingwe should be promoting? What's, you
know, obviously we'll put allthe links, everything in the show
notes, but are you guys goingto be at any of the fall shows? Like
what's going on in the next inthe upcoming months here with founded
Outdoors?
Oh, well, I have a, I have ahot take that I want to, that I want
to share. Colin, because inyou sharing the show notes with me,
(34:34):
it made me think about thingsand then we didn't talk about. So
now I want.
Did I skip a topic? No.
I'm so nervous.
I know, me too. Like I thoughtI pretty. Pretty light show notes.
Brand versus product. And theidea that, and this is, you know,
terrible content, you can cutit. But the notion that I think it's
(34:57):
for small brands, it's so mucheasier to be able to lead with a
product first as opposed to,you know, the, the brand identity
and messaging at Garage. Likewe don't even hop on the phone with
a brand until we've been ableto see samples of what that, of what
that product is. And I think alot of small brands that are not
(35:18):
successful are ones that kindof lean too heavily on the small
brand narrative that use thelike, oh, we're small, support us,
we're small. But in reality,like people like to be able to support
small brands. But they whatthey want more so than a small brand
is a product that they'rereally stoked about. So I think it's
like that combination of likea product that you're really stoked
about with a brand story thatresonates. But if you're product
(35:41):
sucks and your brand story isgreat, you still have a probably
a non viable brand. And Ithink that that is something that
is like very real. And I thinkit took me at Garage Grown a long
time to realize like it's notenough of a value proposition just
to be small. You have to beable to differentiate and add value
in other ways. And if you justlean on the fact of support small
(36:02):
businesses, you're going tolose to the big businesses because
they're going to crush you ina bunch of other different ways.
Ways.
Yeah, I totally, I mean likeit's a bit of a chicken and egg thing
because I think the branddirective and understanding who your
brand is that will absolutelyallow you a much longer Runway to
grow to be a bigger brand. Butif all you're doing is sort of like
marketing yourself, like, hey,look at us, small and scrappy, like
(36:22):
no, no, tell me why yourproduct rules and why it's going
to make a difference in mylife. Like, let's start there and
then we can figure out therest. It reminds me of what was the
part of. Was it venture out,the part of outdoor retailer that
always had the up and comingbrand brands which mostly felt like
it was sort of, sort of likePortland designer designing like
80 brands and you're like,none of these people were gonna make
it. I just sort of felt like,you know, just never. Maybe most
of them did. I don't know.Just there was always felt like I
(36:45):
felt like the most hopelessarea of the show to me. I'm like,
oh, you guys, you tried so hard.
Iori was in there. Viori andMir were.
They were like.
Which was crazy.
That is hilarious to think about.
Yeah, that's why it alwaysfelt like you were kind of getting
gaslit when you went to thatventure out because it was like,
wait, this is not the smallbrands in the industry. These are
like mass VC backed.
(37:06):
Like you'd look at V and be.
Like, know that we exist.
Yeah, they'll make it. Butthen you see like, here's another
brand with like arrows in thelogo and you're like, okay guys,
like this is not gonna, Here'sa, a hatchet. Like, okay, we know
what you're all about. Likeyou won't be here next show, you
know. But no, I think it's afair point. Don't rely on these sort
of small brand narrative tocarry. Like it's always. It's always
(37:28):
about making a difference inthe consumer. Why is my life better?
Because of what you're doing.
Doing.
Why am I safer going in theoutdoors? Why am I warm, warm, cool,
dry or safe in the outdoors?Make that bargain with me and I will
be invested in your product.That's always what. That's. That.
That's the equation that matters.
I mean, it's the same as likeyou've talked about this on the pod
before, but kind of withsustainability factors of like people
(37:49):
love a good sustainableproduct, but they don't like it if
the product's not as good asthe non sustainable.
It has to be gift withpurchase of it.
Yeah, like it's, it's. It'sgot to be an. And I think that that
also works with, for, forsmall brands of it's got products
got to be really good. Andthen you can get to the narrative.
But yeah.
So where are you guys going tobe this fall?
(38:14):
This is what you signed up for.
You guys, I love having youbest. I missed you both so much.
I think Lloyd has a moreintense travel schedule.
He typically does. He's likecaptain of the trade shows.
I'm gonna be at. Well, by thetime this episode airs, I'll have
just gotten back from the coreoutdoor summit up in Kimberly, Canada,
(38:35):
where your boy is keynoting.
Whoa.
Stand back. Coming for Lloyd'son your corner.
Watch out. Too late. If anyonewas thinking about not going now
that they heard that, it's toolate because it's in the past. But
yeah, I'm going to Goa. I'llbe at the. The running events, all
(38:56):
the hits.
You're gonna be everywhere.
There's something supposed tobe awesome.
Anything, Emily, Anythingcoming up with found outdoors that
people should be aware of orjust more like resources to get people
involved who want to be.
I'll just mention that we dida small business, small outdoor business
benchmarking survey this yearwith a large executive summary and
the full report is availablefor purchase. So you can find that@founded
(39:19):
outdoors.com so if you're likewanting to get some intel on the
market right now and whatsmall businesses are up against or
you're a small business andyou want to feel like you're less
alone, that's a great thing todownload. As far as events this fall,
we're doing a lot ofpartnerships. So we were Katie and
how the co founders and I,we're going to be all doing a lot,
(39:41):
a lot of stuff going on withWisconsin, with California. Katie's
in Michigan right now at aconference. So a lot of travel, a
lot of partnership stuffhappening. So that's always exciting.
I don't think I have anyevents. Maybe Tre, if Lloyd will
pay me to go. But yeah, we'lltry to figure that out.
Love it.
(40:02):
I'm trying to just shoehorn myway in.
That was a very Gen Xreference right there. Shoehorn your
way.
Does. Does Jen even know whata shoehorn is like? No, no, they
could never.
Listen, let's not wait so longto have you both back on again. We're
going to pick another topic,bring you back on soon. So thank
you both so much for beinghere and love having you on. It's
(40:23):
always good to see you both.
Thanks, Colin.
Bye. It's time for a party shot.
All right, welcome back to theparting shot brought to you today
by Garage Grown Gear, yourhome for outdoorsy gear here on the
Rock Fight Podcast network. Goshopping@garagegrown gear.com and
in honor of Emily joining theshow today, I wanted to touch base
(40:45):
on something pop culturerelated because just recently an
iconic artist put out a highlyanticipated album. Now, this is a
person who has been in ourlives for a long time. Someone whose
music is just as integral tomodern life in 2025 as it has been
for years.
Years.
Someone who was prettyuniversally loved, even if they've
had some divisive moments. Iam of course talking about Jeff Tweedy
(41:07):
and his new 30 track magnumopus, Twilight Override. And look,
I'll be honest, I like UncleTupelo more than Sun, Volt or Wilco.
But there are parts about allthree bands that I love. And I haven't
spent much time with Tweety,the solo artist as of yet. But I
still wanted to take in thisnew album and I enjoyed listening
to Twilight Override overoverall, even if I felt like it was
pretty hit or miss for me.Some tracks, like New Orleans, just
(41:29):
absolutely killed it, whileothers, like Lou Reed was my babysitter,
left me kind of wanting more.But overall, I know we can all agree
that this is the album that wehave been waiting for in 2025 and
I was happy to spend some timewith it. All right, that's the show
for today. Thank you to myguests Emily Holland and Trader Lloyd
Vogel. The Rock Fight is aproduction of Rock Rock Fight llc.
(41:52):
I'm Colin True. Thank you forlistening. And back again to take
us out. It's Krista Makes withthe rock fight fight song. Will see
you next time. Rock fighters.Welcome to the rock fight? Where
we speak our truth, Slaysacred cows and sometimes agree?
(42:16):
Agree to disagree? We talkabout human powered outdoor activities
and big bites about topicsthat we find interesting like pop
culture music, the latestmovie reviews, Ideas that aim for
the head? This is where wespeak our truth. This is where we
speak our truth.
(42:37):
Rock fight, Rock fight, Rock fight?
Welcome to the rock side?Welcome to the rock flight?
Rock flight? Rock fight? Rock flight?
Rock fight, Rock fight?
Welcome to the rock fight?Rock fight? Rock fight, Rock fight.
This just in. Breaking Newsfrom the Rock Fight Rumors are swirling
about a merger between twooutdoor footwear titans. While news
blackout protocols are ineffect, we are unable to name brands
involved in the transaction.However, this hasn't stopped wild
speculation from populatingLinkedIn that a monster RE release
is in the works. Plans for apotential collab were recently spotted
(00:23):
near a local watering hole.Adding to the frenzy, the new item,
called Jungle Croc, comes inat 17ft long and contains nearly
900 pounds of proprietaryclosed cell resin Fury. Placing the
new shoe has reportedly beendifficult as floor models consistently
eat their smaller trailridding neighbors, with some Jungle
Crocs even taking down theoccasional 10 inch logger boot or
(00:46):
small child who's touchingthings they were told not to.
Alright, while that may not betrue, you know what is true? Ibex
Merino is as home in your shopas Dale's in a drag bag. We're talking
authentic heritage, realsustainability, privately owned and
of course premium performancethat has become legendary. From everyday
essentials like the goatee toexpedition ready pieces like the
(01:08):
mammoth hoodie, Ibex has apremium Merino lair ready to outfit
any of your customers.Schedule some time with the Ibex
team at Goa Connect in KansasCity this November and Ibex Premium
Merino. And that's not a Crocwelcome to the Rock Fight where we
(01:32):
speak our truth, sleaze sacredcows and sometimes agree to disagree.
This is an outdoor podcastthat aims for the head. I'm Colin
True and today we're talkingabout emerging brands. And what does
that even mean? But first,some programming reminders. We never
want you to miss an episode ofthe Rock Fight, so please click Follow
on the podcast app you'reusing right now. This Thursday you're
(01:53):
gonna get an all new episodeof Gear Abbey with host Shantae Salibair
who answers all of youroutdoor burning questions. Be sure
also to follow Gear Abby andif you have a question for Gear Abby,
send it toher@deargearabbymail.com also follow
that podcast on this app thatyou're using right now as well. And
lastly, if you want more fromthe Rock Fight Podcast network, head
to Rockfight Co and sign upfor News from the Front our semi
(02:15):
weekly letter. And if you'dlike to see some video clips from
our episodes, head over toInstagram and find us there. Where
we are rockflight company tofollow along. But for today, you
know, pretty often in ouroutdoor industry conversations we
talk in big broad strokes whendescribing the brands that make up
the industry. On one side wehave the incumbent big outdoor brands
like the North Face, Marmot orMountain Hardware, and then everyone
(02:37):
else tends to get labeled asemerging brands, which I think we
all just assume means younger,more upstart brands who are looking
to become as entrenched as aPatagonia or Outdoor Research. But
a good amount out of thesebrands are well beyond emerging,
and in fact they're fullyemerged and are established in their
own right. Maybe not to thedegree as some of the big guys, but
why does that matter so longas they have a customer base that
(02:59):
loves them and as a businessare earning their right to survive.
So really who we're talkingabout in that regard are the startups,
the brands who haven't maybequite earned that right to survive
yet and are looking for aconstant edge to help them get to
that place. Since we spend somuch time here on the Rock fight,
talking about the big economicdriving brands, and rightfully so,
because they are driving ourindustry's economy, I wanted to dig
(03:21):
into this notion aboutemerging brands a little more. So
today we're bringing in twodifferent points of view on the topic,
and both of them you've heardhere before on the podcast. First,
we have Emily motherfuckingHolland, and those are her words.
I want to clarify. I wasrequired by contract to say it that
way. Emily wears a ton of hatsin our space, and one of those hats
is the Management of CommunityEngagement for Founded Outdoors and
(03:42):
Found. It is an organizationthat exists to help new outdoor industry
founders along theirentrepreneurial journey. And second's
our guy, Trader Lloyd Vogel.The Trader Lloyd part. Those are
actually our words. You know,Lloyd as the CEO of Garage Grown
Gear, the online retailerwhere a ton of their vendors are
young and emerging brands.Both Emily and Lloyd are here to
chat with me today. Although Ishould mention that we recorded this
(04:05):
before the announcement wasmade about outdoor retailer moving
to Minneapolis. So if you'rewondering why we didn't touch base
on that with Lloyd, there yougo. But let's get into it. Welcome
back to the Rock Fight, wheretoday it's what the hell is an Emerging
Brand Anyway? With EmilyHolland and Lloyd Vogel. And that's
coming up right after somewords from our sponsors. All right,
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All right, we are here with acouple of returning champions of
the Rock fight. We got EmilyHolland, who has on her founded Outdoors
Hat, which is, I think, hatnumber 856 of the more than 1000
(07:03):
hats that she wears, as wellas the CEO of Garage Grown Gear,
the Dyneema enthusiasthimself, Lloyd Vogel, is back on
the show. Welcome back, guys.Good to have you back here.
Thanks for having us.
Yeah, good to be back. Let'sjust talk over each other, Lloyd,
the entire time. It's funnythat I'm the one who wears the hats
because Lloyd wears a hatevery single day of his life. That's
(07:25):
true. He actually probablydoes have a thousand hats, so.
But you do turn up across theoutdoor industry, Emily. It's kind
of like there's a thinghappening. It's like, oh, Emily's
involved.
You know, she's.
She's here once again. Wecan't get rid of her. She's just
always showing up.
Is that a good penny, badpenny situation? What is it?
Yeah. I don't know. That mustbe a Gen X saying. I don't really
know what that means.
(07:45):
What's a penny? Do we use this anymore?
Coin. I'm confused.
Oh, you were born in the 70s.I did just turn 50.
Yes, I know. And I've told youmany times, your hair is incredible,
especially for your age. Let'smove on.
Colin, I'm a little worried.Are you going to like it as much
when it goes completely gray?That' I'm worried about.
(08:06):
Oh, I'm gonna love it evenmore. That's like, especially because
it's so straight. It's like,so silver fox. You're gonna be such
a silver fox. Yeah, I love it.I feel fine saying that. Yeah.
Personal satisfaction when youlose all of your hair and join the
ranks of bald men like myself.
Well, guys, we're talkingabout emerging brands because both
of you obviously involved inemerging brands. I think we, Lloyd,
(08:28):
before we hit record, made agood point of, like, what is an emerging
brand. That's an interestingconversation starter right there.
But I do want to. And I dowant to start by defining who we're
even talking about, becausethe outdoor industry was not built
on outdoor pursuits really. Itwas built more on the brands who
are seen as enabling ouroutdoor pursuits. And our brands
are really the celebrities ofour space, with many of us looking
(08:48):
to get jobs at those brands.And then when we have those jobs,
our friends and families sortof geek out when you tell them where
you work. And the point beingthat there's a real weight to being
an outdoor active brand. And Iimagine that attracts a lot of folks
who want to try and make it inour space. And so when you think
about someone looking atentering the space, creating an outdoor
(09:09):
and active brand, you know,what does that look like? What, what
is, I mean, to Lloyd to yourquestion, like, what is an emerging
brand look like? Is it theproduct? Is it the positioning? Is
it really the desired point ofdistribution? Like, what are we even
talking about when we'retalking about these new brands?
Yeah, I mean, I think it'skind of arbitrary to some extent.
Like, I think it largely hasto do with what perspective on the
industry you have. Like, ifyou are someone who only has familiarity
(09:32):
with the big companies in thisspace, you could look at, you know,
companies with $100 million ofrevenue and be like, oh yeah, the
small players in this space.And then I think, you know, if you
go down into the garage growngear world of things, you know, our
small makers might do lessthan $250,000 in revenue. And when
(09:54):
those folks look at a bigbrand, that might mean $5 million
in revenue. So I think thereis kind of an arbitrary nature to
it and there's like so manydifferent terminology, parts of terminology
that get slung around withthat if that's small, if that's startup
cottage emerging. And I thinkall really kind of just have different
associations, but none of themhave particularly clear definitions.
(10:16):
And I think people try to puttheir own definition on it and I
don't think it really matters.I think some, like, I don't identify
it as a, a startup to me thatlike has connotations of like tech
and money and newness and it'svery product centered. But I also
don't identify as emergingbecause I don't really know what
that is.
(10:37):
It's like you're giving birth.
It'S emerging. I am here.
I have birthed this brand. Iwas like, what does that mean?
Yeah, yeah, I don't really.And like emerging I think implies
like some form of goal thatyou are emerging towards.
Yeah.
And I'd say most of thebusiness owners that I know don't
(10:59):
necessarily like, when haveyou, if you're emerging, when have
you actualized, like, isn'tthat just like constantly a state
of, of being in flux? So Imean, I identify as being a small
business owner. I identify ashaving a lot of the brands that are
in the garage grown gearsphere as being small. And I think
it is something that you kindof identify as. It's not a label
(11:21):
anyone can just slap on you.It's like, if you identify as a startup.
Sweet. If you want to feellike you're emerging, cool, emerge
and you know, do whatevermakes you feel seen great. I think
my only real beef is when youhave brands that are like suddenly
it's Small Business Saturdayand you've got some, you know, $500
(11:42):
million company being likesupport our small brand and you're
like, right, feels a little off.
So typically an outdoor brandthough that has any clout is like
kind of looking to solve aproblem though we're trying, if we're
trying to hone in on like whata brand actually does and then you
how an emerging brand mightfit into that. You know, enthusiasts
looking for better solutionsor more comfortable ways of going
outside. So when I look atwhat Found It Outdoor does and Emily,
(12:04):
I'm kind of curious like howdo you, when you hear some of that
of like sort of like thediscourse around like what an emerging
brand is, like who are thepeople who come to Found It Outdoors?
Like how do these folks whomaybe have good ideas come to an
organization like FoundedOutdoors to kind of get a leg up
versus in the past it waslike, well I guess I'm going to try
to make this thing and seewhat happens.
Yeah, I think that the Lloyd'sreally spot on. Like it's so different.
The definitions are all overthe place and it also almost doesn't
(12:28):
really matter in a way. ForFounded Outdoors the way that we
think about the community isnot really about if they're calling
themselves emerging or small.We personally call them small because
most of our brands that are inthe community are definitely making
less than 500k annually topline revenue. Right. And many of
(12:52):
them are less than 5 million,less than 10 million. And that's
like the highest, highestrange. Like the very few are making
that. So it's not really aboutlike their size or their stage. But
they have to be activelyworking on their business. They can
still be like prototyping and,and working on pre launch, pre revenue,
(13:12):
that's fine. But they alsoneed to be targeting the outdoor
consumer as their main targetaudience. There are some folks that
have like multiple targetaudiences, that's fine. But they
need to have outdoor as one oftheir main. And so we, we look at
it a little less of like sizeand time spent in your business because
there's some businesses toothat have been in business for five
(13:34):
years and they've made verylittle headway. Maybe they've still
had a full time job. They'rejust doing it on the side. They can't
fully go in yet. Fine. Butthere's some people who in their
first year are getting hugeorders at REI and like fully, you
know, locked in. So theparameters of small are kind of up
(13:54):
to our discretion, I wouldsay. But for the most part, people
come to Found it outdoors whenthey're very early on or within those
like first five years, I wouldsay, and get the most value in those
first five years.
So what, what are some of thethings that found it offers some
of the folks that come to youguys. Emily, like what, what are
some of the actual. Like if Ihave started a brand, whether it's,
you know, Lloyd, to yourpoint, small, medium, large, whatever.
(14:15):
But I kind of fit into thatcriteria that you're looking for.
What, what are the, what isthe offering to a person like that?
Yeah. So Founded Outdoors hastwo parts of the business. I would
say the first part is thecommunity, which is more of what
I think we're talking abouttoday. And that's a free space for
anyone, like I said, who hasalready started their business and
their main target audience isthe outdoor consumer. So when they
(14:38):
come in, the main thing thatwe offer, I would say is peer to
peer knowledge sharing andhaving a space for people to do that
in a way that's veryactionable and engaged. So we have
a huge Slack channel. By huge,I mean it's around 530 people and
people are really popping offin there. Like there are so many
(15:00):
questions, so many greatinsights being shared. There's a
lot of connections being madeand if I do say so myself, it's one
of the best Slack channels outthere. I'll just toot my own horn
in that situation. But it'samazing. It's amazing how much people
give and take and it's a freecommunity. Right. Some people say,
like for community you need tohave it paid for people to invest
in it. And I just don't thinkthat that's fully true. We've kind
(15:24):
of proven that it's notnecessarily true and we're keeping
that free as of right now. So.
So like you can. Almostanybody can take advantage of that.
If you have an. Or if you'vestarted an outdoor brand or you want
to start an outdoor brand,that's just a resource that's out
there for people to tap into.
Yes, if they are aspiring andhave an idea, but do not yet have
(15:45):
a business plan, prototype, etcetera, that's a bit too early for
us. We've noticed that we needto have them actively working on
their business. To get valueand to also offer value in the community.
So that's a big part of it.And then we do tons of virtual events.
Like we have webinars andworkshops on all kinds of things.
This year alone we've hadsales how to crush trade shows, like
(16:06):
how to deal with the tariffs.And then we partnered up with Lloyd
and Garage Grown Gear to do amonthly webinar series called the
Ascent Series, which is apanel that Lloyd runs usually on
a specific topic that we knowsmall slash emerging slash startups,
slash cottage brands care about.
We definitely need a word. Ithink like you said it was Owen,
(16:27):
it came up with emerging. Ithink you might be right but like
it's just not. There's not agood all encompassing word. Let's
work it. We'll take thisoffline. Sor Emily didn't even know.
Maybe it's a chatgpt job. Youjust put all those in there and just
like say come up with a termfor this. And then finally we, I
mean we try to at least haveextra resources too. So we have a
resource guide that kind ofholds everything that we've done.
(16:50):
It's all of our recordings ofall of our workshops, webinars, anything
people share in there that'shelpful. Full list of any outdoor
events. And then when we areat outdoor events we'll do, you know,
happy hours and try to meet upin person as much as possible. So
that's the community side. Sothat's a lot.
And honestly like it is thebest. I mean as someone who I've
had the privilege ofinteracting with Founded Outdoors
(17:12):
in a lot of different waysover the last couple of years. But
as a free resource, itliterally is like the biggest no
brainer if you are a smalloutdoor business. Like if you are
not part of founded outdoors.I'm not sure exactly like what you're
doing. Like it just, it has somany resources. Like you don't, like
I don't engage all the timewith it, but I try to and I. And
(17:34):
it's something that like caneither be a very active or very passive
part of what you do. The SlackChannel is a great way to be able
to pull knowledge fromhundreds of other founders who have
done it before because we alllike to think that our story is very
unique, but it's, it's reallynot. And like everyone else has pretty
much always had had the samechallenges as you and just being
(17:56):
able to have people,especially you know, if you're a
small solo entrepreneur, beingable to kind of, yeah, have Some
camaraderie and solidaritywith other folks. It's, it's brilliant.
I love it.
So you said that you mentionedthere's two parts of founded outdoors.
You mentioned the communitypart and everything. What is the
other side of the organization?
Yeah, so the other side is ourconsulting and partnership side.
(18:16):
And so we consult witheconomic development groups, outdoor
business alliances, outdoorrec offices, sometimes other nonprofits,
or even county. Differentcounties in different states have
differently namedorganizations, but essentially either
consulting with them, sohelping them to understand what the
needs are and their specificregion, state, area, and then delivering
(18:41):
on that and helping theiroutdoor entrepreneurs get those,
those resources. But then wealso fully do programming on behalf
of those places too. So wehave, have had partnerships with
Alabama, Vermont, Maine,Wisconsin, a small county in California,
(19:03):
Siskiyou, which we're doingsome work with this month, which
is going to be very fun, andsome others, and then of course our
accelerator program with rei.So I just wanted to mention that
too, so that if founders arenot necessarily ready to start their
business just yet, but theyhave an idea or something, we often
have programs in their areaswith our partnerships. So just keeping
(19:23):
an eye out for those might be helpful.
What's the success rate here?Right, because I look, think of like,
look, I'm a founder and like,it just, it's a, and I'll tell you
guys, you guys run your ownbusinesses as well, right? It's a
pretty lonely existence. And Iunderstand that it's the community
aspect of it. Right. But it's,it's not, you know, we all have the
days of like, I'm going totake over the world, then the next
day you're like, I'm going toshut it down and go work at a Starbucks.
(19:43):
You know, like, those arelike, that's sort of the life here.
At the same time, there is anelement of the market's going to
really ultimately determine ifyou're successful or not, if you're,
if your brand makes it, ifyour product is viable, all of those
things. Is there a successrate or is there, is there proof
in the pudding that shows thatlike something this organization
can help folks either get overthose hurdles that are in their way,
(20:05):
or is it just truly more ofthat about that support network to
like, get through those lowmoments that we all have as a founder?
Well, I'd be interested to seeLloyd's perspective is on this, but
I, I, we don't have a successrate that we can share. I mean, we
are here to provide supportand minimize gatekeeping to resources
and there's so many otherfactors that come into play when
(20:27):
someone is successful or notsuccessful in their business. And
also the definition of successis different for everyone. So it's
really hard to quantify that.Yeah, you know, there's kinds of
things that we can't control.Like maybe someone's mental health
is getting in the way of liketheir success. Maybe where they live
is impacting them. There's notas many resources there that they
can tap into, like local bankloans and things like that or whatever.
(20:50):
So we're in the business ofsupporting you, of where you're at
in your journey, and we hopethat that leads you to success. And
we think that this communityand the learnings that we share do
that. However, we're not, youknow, at the end of the day, responsible
for your success. And so we.Yeah, but we hope for it.
What's the gatekeeping that'sgoing on that you, that you're referring
(21:12):
to? Is there somethingspecific that you.
I mean, traditionally, first,this is a little bit of coming from
Silicon Valley and you know,other types of industries too, but
traditionally, who gets accessto resources when it comes to founding
businesses? I see there'sinvestment. Right. Mentorship goes.
Let's guess who they are.White men. We all guessed at the
same time.
(21:32):
Look at that. In the outdoorindustry, you left out skinny, by
the way, in your descriptor, so.
Oh, yes. Yeah. Skinny. Ish.White men. Way fish, if you will.
And so, yeah, we want to makesure that this is a space we do a
lot too. Like even with theAscent series or workshops that we're
(21:56):
doing, people that we have forfireside chats, we really try to
make sure that they are notall white men so that people see
different versions of thejourney that they could take as well.
You know, I, I think it's,it's hard to be able to like, I think
there's kind of the thoughtthat when companies go out of business
that it's like up in flames orthere's some declaration of bankruptcy.
(22:16):
But like most small brandsjust kind of slide into non existence.
You know, they, it's eitherit's too hard, it didn't, it didn't
blow up as quickly as theywanted to. They have another opportunity
that can make them more money.They have a kid and they have to
like, like, you know, coversome new costs that just doesn't
jive with their stage in life.So I think for a lot of small brands
(22:37):
it's just less dramatic. Andso it's hard to be able to account
for what makes it successfulor what makes it fail. Because it's
just up to kind of yeah. Whattheir expectations are. Success for
some of our brands isperpetually being a non growth brand
that just is able to subsistone's lifestyle. And there's a lot
of lifestyle companies outthere that that's what they want
(22:59):
to do. And but for a lot ofbrands like that isn't the goal and
if they did that for a numberof years straight, they would call
it a failure and they wouldquit and shut it down or start something
up or go take another nine tofive. So I mean I think it largely
has to do with kind of whatbrands expectations are and if the
reality lines up in aparticular timeline that that works
(23:22):
for them. So yeah, we've seena lot of companies just come and
go. Sometimes it's because youknow, they just don't have the momentum.
Sometimes they've you know,realized that it's not scalable and
sometimes it's just like, wellactually I got a job working at Microsoft
and it pays me like 10 timesmore and I don't have to work 80
hours a week. So yeah, whywould I not do that?
(23:44):
Well, kind of going back to mything at the beginning right about
the industry is veryinteresting because it is these sort
of passion fueled productsthat fuel outdoor passions and you
can see a lot of overlap andwhy somebody wants to start things.
I got the chance to work witha lot of founders that are my time
at Polartech and like a lot ofnew upstart apparel brands I've talked
about in this podcast before.Like coat epoxy was one of them and
you always feel that sort of,it's, it's, it's much more than the
(24:07):
product typically. Right.Because these people do go outside
and want to use these thingsand I'm like highlighted a need and
like oh, I'm helping to solvethat need. Right. Does this exist
in other categories? Right. Ithink about this like the outdoors.
Is this something that makesthe outdoors unique? Like is there
someone out there is like heyman, I'm making the next great dishwasher.
It's going to be so sick.You're not going to have to rinse
(24:28):
your plates. It's going to bethe best. Like I don't know. This
feels like a very uniquelyoutdoor thing. Am I, am I correct
in that.
I have a little bit of a hottake on this? I don't care. A dishwasher
is improved. I do care,however, if my pants now Have a zipper
that I can just squat and peeand that. That's sick. So I just.
(24:52):
Maybe I just don't knowbecause I just don't care. No, people
are definitely makingimprovements on and like looking
for spots and needs and, andchallenges that people are having
and trying to solve them. Butit's just somehow not as exciting
as someone figuring this tinylittle thing out when they're hiking
the PCT or something. They'relike, you know what would be great?
If I did this thing. And thenthey go to their garage and they're
(25:13):
like, you know, I'm gonna justsew it together and see what happens.
And then they suddenly arelike, wait, this maybe could be good.
And then they talk to a bunchof people and they think it's good
to like, that is such a cooljourney compared to like, if the
blender has a little bitbetter speed. Oh, that's what I mean,
to have chunks in it.
And look, I, I'm fully willingto claim ignorance if somebody wants
(25:36):
to write in myrockfightgmail.com about like, you know, other
industries that have similarthings like founder outdoors or similarly
passion driven founders likeworking on things. But it seems to
me that most of that comes outof like GE and somebody whose job
it is like, hey, make theseappliances better versus to your
point, like the, the wherethese inspirational moments strike
and how then these things cometo market and then obviously then
(25:58):
the resource they can get froma founded outdoors, it just feels
very like this feels foundedoutdoors feels just very uniquely
outdoor. And in fact, in. Inthe point of view that this is innovation
in of itself of hey, here'sall these people who are working
on these things. Let's provideresources to make sure that they
can find success in theirjourney. Right. That's almost in
itself an outdoor sort ofmissive in a way.
I mean, I think to take thedishwasher and run with it, I think
(26:20):
there's a certain expectation.Yeah, I think the ex. There's a certain
expectation with technologythat it's constantly evolving. And
I think that that is somethingthat like you don't pay attention
to it, but you always expectthat your last, your next dishwater
dishwasher is better than yourlast dishwasher. And if you buy a
fridge, it's going to bebetter than your last fridge. And
I think that there's like a.And that's largely big industry like
(26:43):
the R and D that comesbetween, you know, at GE is very
different than what Emilysaid. If someone hiked the pct, it's
more accessible. And I. And Idon't think, like, I think one of
the most awesome things aboutthe outdoor industry, it's a passion,
but it's a passion becauseit's a. It's something that you do
in your personal time firstand you figure out how to be able
to professionalize it. And,like, I don't think anyone is a,
(27:04):
like, you know, a casualdishwasher for fun, and then they
turn that hobby into a passionof, like, yeah.
It'S got a 1972 GE. It's in alime green. Got it at a flea market.
I'm going to refurbish it.It's going to be so sick.
Yeah, like, because it'ssomething that, like, you know, and
I think that's even, you know,if you look at something like cars,
(27:27):
I feel like there's people whowork on cars and there's this, like,
community around, like,antique and, like, fixing things
up and custom stuff. And Ithink that's because there is a level
of hobbyism that is added intoit. And yes, some does make it to
the level of professionalism.But even if you're not a professional,
and I think, like, there is a.You can go to a show like Pacific
(27:48):
Crest Trail Days and talk tosome of the most foremost, you know,
designers in the world. If I'ma, you know, a yahoo playing basketball
in my local gym, which I do,I'm never going to run into LeBron
James. It's just not going tohappen there. And, you know, similarly,
I use a dishwasher. Doesn'tmean I know anyone who, like, designs
dishwashers. Just like, theaccordion of the community is way
(28:10):
smaller. And I think that thatis something that is fairly unique
to the outdoors. I mean, yousee it in, like, in. In biking as
well. Like, bike packs arelike a big kind of cottage industry
of itself. But I think a lotof the outdoor industry has that
kind of proximity becausewe're of the industry. And when people
come from outside of theindustry and try to monetize it,
(28:32):
people's hackles go upimmediately. Or they're like, oh,
that person came in fromSephora. Or that person used to be
at Best Buy and be like, theydon't understand how it works. Well,
you know, here in the outdindustry, they probably don't even
wear flannels or hats. Theyprobably wear, like, suits and ties
and, like, smell good.
You're teeing up my kind of.My last big question here, because
I do think there comes a timewhen the industry can become limiting.
(28:54):
Right. Example always give,you know, because you only. If you
only pull from, like, a small,you know, pool of voices, there might
be things you don't know. Andhonestly, you can't always evaluate
the quality of the voices thatyou're maybe you're listening to.
And I think there's a lot oftimes I'll see outdoor events, and
it's like, just the same folksthat I've seen in the industry for
a long time giving the samespeeches. And I would be like, I
(29:16):
agree with you, Lloyd, inthat. Like, yeah, when you're setting
strategy, you want tounderstand the world that you're
in. And if you're onlylistening to people from outside
the world, that seems like abad idea. But there's a world where,
like, well, this person workedat Sephora. What did they learn about
retail working for a brandlike that? And what are the learnings
that can then apply to, like,our space as well? And.
No, I. I agree with thatfully. I just think that that's what
(29:37):
the industry thinks.
Like, oh, yeah, myself, yes,you're correct.
Like, I don't. I don't feellike I come necessarily from the
outdoor industry. I was, like,in special education and kind of
just bumbled my way into beingon this podcast over a number of
years.
Welcome. We got. We made it.This is the culmination of a long
journey.
Goodness, he's LinkedIn famous.
(29:57):
Yeah, well, you know, my long,illustrious career at Sephora made
me very, you know, qualifiedfor this.
Poor Sephora is taking abeating on this pod.
We love you, Sephora. Thank you.
Are they a new sponsor of the pod?
They're.
Well, welcome to. That's fine.
Taking money from. Forwherever you can get.
Listen, we're not gonna, like,we're really not gonna bag on you
(30:18):
on this show. You may as well,like, you know, tap into the outdoor
scene, you know, but you knowwhat I mean, though, like, that would,
like. I think it becomesimportant at some point to listen
to other voices as well. Youknow, is that an opportunity for,
like, founded outdoors tobring some of those voices in for
the founders that you guyshave involved with the organization?
I think we prioritize keepingit outdoor. However, we do sometimes
(30:39):
bring in folks who are likegeneral marketing person or general
e commerce professional orsales professional. But generally,
like, we want to keep itspecific. However, a lot of people
who share resources in thecommunity, well, they're pretty consistently
not outdoor specific. Like,there might be lessons from, like,
(31:00):
Apple or even, like, maybeoutdoor. Outdoor adjacent, like the
hunting industry or the CPGand food industry. Like, that's a
big one that they shareresources around. But I just want
to go back to like, what makesthese brands a little bit more unique,
I think, and why people whoare listening, if you're like, well,
(31:21):
I don't really. I just want tobuy from Black diamond or whatever
company that you want to buyfrom, I would just consider that
the smaller brands that we'retalking about who are awesome. Here's
a couple things that youshould think about for them. Okay.
They innovate way faster thanthe big brands. They can. Because
while big brands have R and Dbudgets, small brands have no rules
(31:43):
and they can just do whatwhatever they want. And obviously
they need to be compliant withlike legal restrictions, but they
can innovate faster. And soyou might be able to get like a way
cooler product that worksbetter for what you need way faster
than a big brand. So that'snumber one. The next is that they're
so close to the community'sneeds. Like, so many people, especially
in Lloyd's community, but alsoin founded outdoors, were literally
(32:08):
like we just talked about onthe PCT and they decided to do this
thing or they were trying togo camping with their baby and they're
like, I'm going to get Costcoblankets and put it together. And
now they have a business thatdoes that. So they're so close to
what we actually need. Andthey're also open to feedback a lot
of the time. And that'sincredible. I'm just going to keep
going. And so then they alsodrive economic development in these
(32:28):
local areas, whether it betourism or even like Melanzana in
Leadville. Like Leadville,Colorado has become more on the map
because of Melanzana, which isan outdoor apparel brand.
They've been around for a longtime too. Not emerging, I would say
say.
So I just like there's thesereal clear benefits to purchasing
from a small brand that oneshould think about when you're making
(32:49):
those purchasing decisions.And listen, I know it's more convenient
sometimes to get the bigbrand. Like, we all have big brands.
We get it. But just thinkingabout that when you need something
for your next trip, I thinkis. Is really important.
It's also just like not thatmuch more expensive if.
Right.
If it's not even cheaper.Like, I mean, I think there is a
mystique that small brandscome with a premium price point,
(33:09):
but not always. A lot of timesthey don't have wholes margins that
are built into it. So there'sless of a need. I mean like we see
it with fabric design of likewe have companies that are kind of
in the cottage space that are,that are making packs out of cool
fabrics and they're expensive.But then you see a bigger company
come in using that samefabric, it's twice as expensive.
(33:30):
There's a reason why it'stwice as expensive is because it
has keystone pricing builtinto it and because that big brand
has to have. Have you know, a50% margin to be able to get into
the brick and mortar retailspaces that they, that they want
to be able to navigate. Andyou know, your, your favorite small
brand that makes packs onInstagram doesn't need that. They
just need to be able tojustify the fabric costs and their
(33:52):
labor costs. And that's. Thatoftentimes is like. So I don't know,
it's not always just like I'mkind of tired of the narrative of
oh, it's so expensive to beable to support small brands and
be like, well, not really. Imean, unless you're comparing it
to like TEMU prices, well theneverything's expensive.
Compared to that bullshit, youknow? You know.
Yeah, totally.
(34:13):
So I guess, you know, lastthing, guys. So where's are any things
happening this fall anythingwe should be promoting? What's, you
know, obviously we'll put allthe links, everything in the show
notes, but are you guys goingto be at any of the fall shows? Like
what's going on in the next inthe upcoming months here with founded
Outdoors?
Oh, well, I have a, I have ahot take that I want to, that I want
to share. Colin, because inyou sharing the show notes with me,
(34:34):
it made me think about thingsand then we didn't talk about. So
now I want.
Did I skip a topic? No.
I'm so nervous.
I know, me too. Like I thoughtI pretty. Pretty light show notes.
Brand versus product. And theidea that, and this is, you know,
terrible content, you can cutit. But the notion that I think it's
(34:57):
for small brands, it's so mucheasier to be able to lead with a
product first as opposed to,you know, the, the brand identity
and messaging at Garage. Likewe don't even hop on the phone with
a brand until we've been ableto see samples of what that, of what
that product is. And I think alot of small brands that are not
(35:18):
successful are ones that kindof lean too heavily on the small
brand narrative that use thelike, oh, we're small, support us,
we're small. But in reality,like people like to be able to support
small brands. But they whatthey want more so than a small brand
is a product that they'rereally stoked about. So I think it's
like that combination of likea product that you're really stoked
about with a brand story thatresonates. But if you're product
(35:41):
sucks and your brand story isgreat, you still have a probably
a non viable brand. And Ithink that that is something that
is like very real. And I thinkit took me at Garage Grown a long
time to realize like it's notenough of a value proposition just
to be small. You have to beable to differentiate and add value
in other ways. And if you justlean on the fact of support small
(36:02):
businesses, you're going tolose to the big businesses because
they're going to crush you ina bunch of other different ways.
Ways.
Yeah, I totally, I mean likeit's a bit of a chicken and egg thing
because I think the branddirective and understanding who your
brand is that will absolutelyallow you a much longer Runway to
grow to be a bigger brand. Butif all you're doing is sort of like
marketing yourself, like, hey,look at us, small and scrappy, like
(36:22):
no, no, tell me why yourproduct rules and why it's going
to make a difference in mylife. Like, let's start there and
then we can figure out therest. It reminds me of what was the
part of. Was it venture out,the part of outdoor retailer that
always had the up and comingbrand brands which mostly felt like
it was sort of, sort of likePortland designer designing like
80 brands and you're like,none of these people were gonna make
it. I just sort of felt like,you know, just never. Maybe most
of them did. I don't know.Just there was always felt like I
(36:45):
felt like the most hopelessarea of the show to me. I'm like,
oh, you guys, you tried so hard.
Iori was in there. Viori andMir were.
They were like.
Which was crazy.
That is hilarious to think about.
Yeah, that's why it alwaysfelt like you were kind of getting
gaslit when you went to thatventure out because it was like,
wait, this is not the smallbrands in the industry. These are
like mass VC backed.
(37:06):
Like you'd look at V and be.
Like, know that we exist.
Yeah, they'll make it. Butthen you see like, here's another
brand with like arrows in thelogo and you're like, okay guys,
like this is not gonna, Here'sa, a hatchet. Like, okay, we know
what you're all about. Likeyou won't be here next show, you
know. But no, I think it's afair point. Don't rely on these sort
of small brand narrative tocarry. Like it's always. It's always
(37:28):
about making a difference inthe consumer. Why is my life better?
Because of what you're doing.
Doing.
Why am I safer going in theoutdoors? Why am I warm, warm, cool,
dry or safe in the outdoors?Make that bargain with me and I will
be invested in your product.That's always what. That's. That.
That's the equation that matters.
I mean, it's the same as likeyou've talked about this on the pod
before, but kind of withsustainability factors of like people
(37:49):
love a good sustainableproduct, but they don't like it if
the product's not as good asthe non sustainable.
It has to be gift withpurchase of it.
Yeah, like it's, it's. It'sgot to be an. And I think that that
also works with, for, forsmall brands of it's got products
got to be really good. Andthen you can get to the narrative.
But yeah.
So where are you guys going tobe this fall?
(38:14):
This is what you signed up for.
You guys, I love having youbest. I missed you both so much.
I think Lloyd has a moreintense travel schedule.
He typically does. He's likecaptain of the trade shows.
I'm gonna be at. Well, by thetime this episode airs, I'll have
just gotten back from the coreoutdoor summit up in Kimberly, Canada,
(38:35):
where your boy is keynoting.
Whoa.
Stand back. Coming for Lloyd'son your corner.
Watch out. Too late. If anyonewas thinking about not going now
that they heard that, it's toolate because it's in the past. But
yeah, I'm going to Goa. I'llbe at the. The running events, all
(38:56):
the hits.
You're gonna be everywhere.
There's something supposed tobe awesome.
Anything, Emily, Anythingcoming up with found outdoors that
people should be aware of orjust more like resources to get people
involved who want to be.
I'll just mention that we dida small business, small outdoor business
benchmarking survey this yearwith a large executive summary and
the full report is availablefor purchase. So you can find that@founded
(39:19):
outdoors.com so if you're likewanting to get some intel on the
market right now and whatsmall businesses are up against or
you're a small business andyou want to feel like you're less
alone, that's a great thing todownload. As far as events this fall,
we're doing a lot ofpartnerships. So we were Katie and
how the co founders and I,we're going to be all doing a lot,
(39:41):
a lot of stuff going on withWisconsin, with California. Katie's
in Michigan right now at aconference. So a lot of travel, a
lot of partnership stuffhappening. So that's always exciting.
I don't think I have anyevents. Maybe Tre, if Lloyd will
pay me to go. But yeah, we'lltry to figure that out.
Love it.
(40:02):
I'm trying to just shoehorn myway in.
That was a very Gen Xreference right there. Shoehorn your
way.
Does. Does Jen even know whata shoehorn is like? No, no, they
could never.
Listen, let's not wait so longto have you both back on again. We're
going to pick another topic,bring you back on soon. So thank
you both so much for beinghere and love having you on. It's
(40:23):
always good to see you both.
Thanks, Colin.
Bye. It's time for a party shot.
All right, welcome back to theparting shot brought to you today
by Garage Grown Gear, yourhome for outdoorsy gear here on the
Rock Fight Podcast network. Goshopping@garagegrown gear.com and
in honor of Emily joining theshow today, I wanted to touch base
(40:45):
on something pop culturerelated because just recently an
iconic artist put out a highlyanticipated album. Now, this is a
person who has been in ourlives for a long time. Someone whose
music is just as integral tomodern life in 2025 as it has been
for years.
Years.
Someone who was prettyuniversally loved, even if they've
had some divisive moments. Iam of course talking about Jeff Tweedy
(41:07):
and his new 30 track magnumopus, Twilight Override. And look,
I'll be honest, I like UncleTupelo more than Sun, Volt or Wilco.
But there are parts about allthree bands that I love. And I haven't
spent much time with Tweety,the solo artist as of yet. But I
still wanted to take in thisnew album and I enjoyed listening
to Twilight Override overoverall, even if I felt like it was
pretty hit or miss for me.Some tracks, like New Orleans, just
(41:29):
absolutely killed it, whileothers, like Lou Reed was my babysitter,
left me kind of wanting more.But overall, I know we can all agree
that this is the album that wehave been waiting for in 2025 and
I was happy to spend some timewith it. All right, that's the show
for today. Thank you to myguests Emily Holland and Trader Lloyd
Vogel. The Rock Fight is aproduction of Rock Rock Fight llc.
(41:52):
I'm Colin True. Thank you forlistening. And back again to take
us out. It's Krista Makes withthe rock fight fight song. Will see
you next time. Rock fighters.Welcome to the rock fight? Where
we speak our truth, Slaysacred cows and sometimes agree?
(42:16):
Agree to disagree? We talkabout human powered outdoor activities
and big bites about topicsthat we find interesting like pop
culture music, the latestmovie reviews, Ideas that aim for
the head? This is where wespeak our truth. This is where we
speak our truth.
(42:37):
Rock fight, Rock fight, Rock fight?
Welcome to the rock side?Welcome to the rock flight?
Rock flight? Rock fight? Rock flight?
Rock fight, Rock fight?
Welcome to the rock fight?Rock fight? Rock fight, Rock fight.
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