September 1, 2025 • 48 mins
Today Colin is joined by The Monday Boys (outdoor industry insider Eoin Comerford and brand & creative expert Producer Dave) to talk about the following topics and news to come out of the outdoor industry over the past week!
- The Footlocker/Dicks merger is one step closer to being finalized. What's next? (05:55)
- The Lightning Round: Nike loses to While On Earth, Polartec's Warm Weather Fleece, and Athleta's disappointing second quarter. (11:05)
- The big news of the week? Retailer Summit Hut announces that it will be closing its doors. Is this a sign of the outdoor industry's demise or just another sign that things are evolving? (18:12)
- The Outdoor Brand Scorecard! Eoin put together a scorecard to evaluate outdoor brands relationship with their retailers. (32:26)
Thanks for listening! The Rock Fight is a production of Rock Fight, LLC.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey, everyone, before we keepgoing here, I need to tell you about
our teammates at DarbyCommunications. Like I've been telling
you, if you run an outdoor, anendurance or an active lifestyle
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(00:20):
And this is an important pointnow. Guys, I want you to hear me
on this. More and more peoplehave reached out to us here at the
Rock Flight because of thatmessaging. Look, guys, I'm dead serious.
If they can help us, they canhelp anybody. Hit them up@darbycommunications.com
do it today. Welcome to theRock Fight, where we speak our truth,
(00:48):
slay sacred cows, andsometimes agree to disagree. This
is an outdoor podcast thataims for the head. I'm Colin True,
and joining me today, straightfrom the top of the podcast charts,
it's the Monday boys. Outdoorindustry insider Owen Comerford and
brand and creative expertproducer Dave. What's up, guys?
Hello.
Hello.
We are straight from the top,from the podcast charts. Yeah, I
(01:08):
want everyone.
Well, we're at the bottom ofthe top.
Well, that's still close tothe top.
It sure is. It sure is.
The sports chart, not just theoutdoor charts.
Right, right. Yeah, yeah,that's right.
We have conquered the outdoorcharts, except for the. The meat
eating carnivore group, which who's.
Ever going to top. No.
(01:29):
And you want to stay kind ofyour distance from that. You don't
want to get caught up in thatfrenzy. Oh, my gosh.
But that, yeah, the sportstrack, I mean, we. We beat some pretty,
like, known names out there.That's kind of wild.
Basically, what we're sayingsuck at other outdoor podcasts.
No, we're not saying that. No,no, we're not saying that. Colin
(01:50):
is saying that. Producer Daveand I are definitely not saying that.
Thank you.
Thank you.
On today's show, we are goingto be talking about some headlines
that come out of the outdoorindustry. But before we get to any
of that, some programmingreminders. Tomorrow, Doug Schnitzman
opens the container like healways does on Tuesday. So head over
to the open container feed andfollow that show. His guest this
(02:11):
week is author andphotographer Andrew Cornelak. And
no doubt we'll have anotherepisode of the Rock Fight later this
week. But what really mattersis that this Thursday, September
4, is Gear Abbey launch day,hosted by our own Shante Salibair.
Gear. Abby will answer yourBurning Outdoor questions. So be
sure to follow that show aswell so you don't miss Thursday's
two episode drop and hey,Dave, how, how can our listeners
(02:35):
get more out of theirexperience with all of the Rock Fight
properties?
Rock Fight Co, Colin. RockFight Co. Newsletters, websites,
lots of pretty pictures.That's the place to go.
One of these days I'll writeanother newsletter. It will happen,
I promise.
I know.
But you know what? Now thatyou've got press junkets and all
(02:56):
this heat coming from thishighly rated PODC podcast, who knows
it's true? Who knows it's true?
I think pretty sure we'rebooked on the Tonight show next week,
guys. I hope you got your,your flight ready. Like, oh my God,
the Rock Fights.
I think you're gonna say wewere booked on Colbert, but then
you know.
Oh, is that something going on?
We're the first guest afterthey shut it down. That is exactly
(03:17):
right.
Oh, guys, you just missed thecut. Oh, and how can our listeners
also reach out to us?
Well, they can emailus@myrockfightmail.com, reach out
on LinkedIn, just search forRockfight or on Instagram, where
we are RockfightCo. All oneword and you can follow along, Send
(03:39):
us a message. But please,email, I think is the best. It's
the one that makes Colinhappiest, I think.
Well, you as well, you're anemail guy. Dave is a purely text
guy. So I have to live at theintersection of text and email with
coordinating with you guysgenerational trauma.
You can do it.
Well, actually, Colin is aphone guy. That's true. Yes. He,
(04:03):
he'll just. I'll see that popup on the phone. I, I don't have
an extra 30 minutes.
I'm sorry. I'm never offendedif, no, if people don't answer, but
if I'm out and about, I'mlike, I'll give it a call. Maybe
you'll pick up. You knowwhat's going to happen.
We have the three mediumscovered between phone, email and
text, so.
All right, so quick Mailbag.After our conversation last week
(04:24):
on the Mon with the Mondayboys about the Nike Lava Dome and
then also the new trend ofgravel shoes, we heard from Wilderness
Exchange owner Don Bushy,former champion on the Rock Fight,
who had this to say aboutgravel shoes. Specifically, said
Colin, I can concur that everyspecialty retailer on earth is euphoric
to add gravel yet anothercategory to their already bloated
(04:45):
and skewed drifted footwearwalls. At. While at Wilderness, we're
even setting up a new gravelmicrometer tech bench where we can
determine through customersourced field specimens the average
gravel size of the surface inquestion and accurately recommend
the appropriate tread, treaddepth for their local trail.
Wow.
Excellent email, Don Bushy.
(05:05):
See, that is the kind ofservice that really sets independent
specialty retail apart.
Yeah, I agree. I agree.
I wish more footwear designersand product people would talk to
people like Don Bushy beforethey start making things. Because
I can see it. You could seethe room, right? Like, hey man, what
(05:26):
if we had a gravel? You know,gravel bikes are crushing it out
there. What if we had a gravelshoe? Oh, my God. Great idea, Bill.
Let's, let's get on that. Youknow, like no man talk to Don. He
doesn't want a gravel shoe.
A lot of it is also, you know,we're really a trail running brand.
Nobody will believe us if wedo road, but if we do gravel, that's
the stepping stone. Yes, exactly.
(05:48):
Look out, Asics, here we come.Thanks, Don, for writing in. All
right, let's move on to theopening shot of today's episode,
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(06:32):
Lems fit first.
Boom.
All right, guys. So today,first up, per sgb, Foot Locker shareholders
have voted to approve theacquisition of the famed retailer
by Dick's Sporting Goods,bringing the merger of the two one
step closer to fruition, saidMary Dillon, Foot Lockers CEO, quote,
we are now one step closer tojoining forces with Dick's and even
(06:52):
better, positioning thebusiness to expand sneaker culture,
elevate the Omni Channelexperience for our customers and
brand partners, and enhanceour position in the industry. So,
Owen, just looking ahead, it'sbeen a minute since we touched on
this story. Any big hurdlesstill looming, you think, for this
merger to be finalized?
Well, I think that was prettymuch it they've passed the FTC review
(07:14):
period where somebody mighthave raised an objection about the
antitrust or uncompetitivenature of two really big retailers
joining together. That'spassed. So yeah, I think it's going
to close here on the 8th of September.
So we've been tracking thisstory since it was announced in May.
(07:36):
And given how the tariffturmoil has played out since then,
do you think there's anyconcerns or predictions for the footwear
world if and what sounds likeand when the merger is finalized?
I don't think so. Like we weretalking about last week that just
that the overall momentum thatwe're seeing in the, in the footwear
category, it has been suchthat it hasn't really been derailed
by the whole tariff thing.It's just been a bit of a road bump
(08:00):
for footwear. Plus most ofit's now concentrated in Vietnam,
which is actually settled inat a 20% level, which I think is
going to stick for a while.Who the heck knows. But that's the
current feeling. The otherthing I would say is that the for
industry is not unused totariffs because it's one of the higher
tariff areas. Historicallyanywhere from 20 to 37.5% is what
(08:25):
they were facing even beforeall this thing happened. So I think
they're used to workingthrough that. To me, the concern
from investors and the stockwas down a little bit post Dick's
earnings on Thursday. Theconcern though is that Foot Locker
may be just becoming more of aboat anchor, right? You've got Dick's
(08:47):
and they're going in differentdirections, right? You've got Dick's
Q2 comp sales up 5% continuedreally strong results there. Foot
locker down 2% yet againcontinued down, down and down. Dick's
Gross margin up 33 basispoints. Foot locker down 50 basis
points. So it's not, not agreat scenario there. I think overall
(09:13):
though, like what, what doesit mean for the wider industry is
that, and this came up onDick's earnings call yesterday, they
view their relationship withall these brands, especially Nike,
as really the way for them tounlock the, the value at Foot Locker
by improving their, theirassortment. Right? So getting more
(09:33):
quote unquote high heat stylesinto those stores which then drive
a differentiated assortment,more full price sales, more higher
value sales. Right? All this,all this good stuff. The issue though
is that there's a finiteamount of those high heat styles
or demand for those high heatstyles. So the allocation, if they
(09:55):
are going to get moreallocation has to come from somewhere
so it's either going to comefrom the D2C sites for those brands.
Maybe probably not. Right. Orit's going to come from other retailers.
And that's probably the biggerconcern, especially for the outdoor
industry because we stock alot of these brands, whether it's
on or Brooks or Hoka, etcetera, but we're not really core
(10:19):
for those brands. And so arewe going to see potentially less
of the high end, the Cliftons,the Clouds, et cetera, from those
brands for outdoor?
I'm actually more interestedin this conversation of Dicks and
footlocker. You know, thatmerging together in one. Colin, it
must be set. Are we waitingfor Dick Locker?
(10:44):
Yes.
Right.
The call of the House of Sports.
Is that in the inevitable. Isthat where this goes to?
Yes.
You had to Dick Locker on yourway to House of Sports, I think is
what happened.
I think so too. The best ofboth worlds together.
That's amazing.
No comment.
(11:05):
And with that, it's time forthe lightning round. All right, so
earlier this week, SanFrancisco 49ers running back Christian
McCaffrey has taken an equitystake in performance and apparel
footwear brand While on Earth.I've never heard of them, but apparently
that's a thing. Owen, do youthink McCaffrey's involvement will
(11:26):
result in an on the bench lineof performance clothing for those
who are often injured?
I think maybe it might be thatthe special 3F line for a fancy football
fiasco. I think that would bespeaking from personal experience.
Oh, did you have McCaffreylast year on your fantasy football
team?
Maybe on one of them. I mean.Yeah. Hey, that's rough. That is
(11:48):
rough. I think the interestingthing here is that he's given up
that sweet, sweet Nike moneyto do this. Right?
Yeah.
And while it, while, you know,I think people look at the, the Kim
Kardashians of the world orwhatever and then think, oh, well,
I can, I can do that. If youthink about it, right, let's say
(12:09):
he's given up 2 million ayear. Okay. Just from. From a dollars
and cents perspective and he'sgot partners and whatever else. Okay,
this thing's going to need tobe like a hundred million dollars
and it's going to lose moneyfor like two or three years. Of course,
all new brands do. Right. Soit's going to require money, right,
to get. I mean, this thingneeds to get to be like $100 million
(12:29):
before he gets paid back forall those Nike dollars he missed
along the way. I mean, I don'tknow. It's it's interesting.
Next thing last week,performance textile maker Polartech
debuted Power Dry mesh whichthey describe in short as lightweight
warm weather fleece. So Dave,not to take a shot of our at our
former employer, but whentrying to mark when we're trying
to market something eternallyassociated with cold weather, which
(12:51):
is fleece, and now they'retrying to do it as something you
can use in the summertime. Arewe officially scraping the bottom
of the fabric barrel?
Oh well, look, Power Dry is along time part of the Polartec stable,
right. It's one of the baselayers known for See this is the
interesting. It's known formoisture wicking. It's got dry in
(13:14):
the name, right? And so you'vegot this moisture wicking base layer.
They are and you know it's abi component knit. So you're putting
two pieces together, you'renot blending it. And this has really
been kind of Polartech'scalling card, like putting fibers
where they need to go to dothe most good. So it kind of fits
into that that they'reexpanding out and they've done different
versions of Power Drivebefore. So this isn't totally new
(13:36):
and I think it's just more inthe actually speaks to a couple things.
One, versatility is whatthey're all about. They're trying
to give you the widest rangewith their lines for your use. But
really too this just speaks tothe time period they are in their
brand and kind of theirownership. They're in the iterative
stage. We're not seeing anykind of leaps in technology or leaps
(13:57):
in innovation. It's how can wemine more out of our current platforms
to give them a little bit,just a little nudge in a different
direction to create a new usecase story. So I think that's how
it just all fits together. Butthe idea of something of warm weather,
fleece is a tough word forthat. But this idea of just warm
enough is I think somethingthey're really, really looking at.
(14:19):
It's an interesting answer,but the correct answer was yes, we
are officially scraping thebottom of the fabric barrel.
No, hey, actually I work witha brand called Ewer and they just
released a warm weatherversion of their fleece treasure
dress and it sold out in hours.
I think on a garmentperspective that makes a lot. I see
that and I know what they'regoing for with this. It's like all
(14:41):
kidding aside and I think thatmakes sense. Sense. I just think
the Dave's point Fleece, whenI'm if I'M a product designer, and
you're showing me. Oh, here'ssummer fleece. It might be a little
like, okay, guys, like, youknow, how many other lightweight
fabrics do I have to choosefrom? But that's an interesting point
about what you were doing, andI'm sure I can picture it in my head,
and I can. I want to go checkit out now. All right, last story
for the lightning round. Aftera disappointing second quarter for
(15:01):
Athleta, their owner, GapIncorporated, is predicting a reset
to return to form will take afair amount of time as they make
moves to right the ship. Oh,and Athleta is a founding member
of brands that led to the riseof Athleisure. Given where modern
trends are and where Athletasits today, can we safely say that
Athleisure is officially dead?
No, but that's. That's aclassic. True hot take. No. Yeah.
(15:29):
No, no. The industry is dead,Colin. Everything dead. Podcasting
is dead.
Podcasting's dead.
That's right.
The rock fight's on thecharts. We can't have podcasting
anymore.
No, but I would say it isdefinitely oversaturated. I mean,
basically, every brand that iseven, like, tangentially related
(15:49):
to anything active has joinedthe Athleisure trend, including,
let's face it, a lot ofoutdoor brands, Right?
Oh, yeah.
So, yeah, I think that'sreally more of the story here. The
other thing I would say isthat they just also announced as
part of this that they'vemoved on to their second president
since REI's Marybeth Lawtonleft the president role two years
(16:13):
ago. So I'm guessing MB isgoing, aha. So, yeah, see, this is.
You know, I guess thingsweren't so bad when I was first.
Weren't so bad back in theday, huh?
Exactly.
Mb, as always, you're alwayswelcome to come on the Rock Fight
and we can talk about. Wedon't have to talk about rei. Let's
talk about Atleta.
Let's talk about athletes.What the heck's going on?
(16:34):
Yes.
Stirring up some tea rightnow. Let's go.
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love hiking. Okay, big storytoday is about Summit Hut because
(19:23):
news out of the specialtyretail world last week is that the
well known GOA dealer SummitHut out of Tucson, Arizona announced
they would be closing. Per apost on their Instagram page, the
retailer stated that, quote,the past few years brought a combination
of pressures too great toovercome. Rising costs, brands selling
direct, new big boxcompetition, the push for lower prices,
(19:44):
shifts toward online shoppingand a changing customer base all
played a part. Summit Hutended up In a tough spot. Too big
to run super lean, but toosmall to compete with national chains.
We looked at every possibleoption, but in the end it just wasn't
sustainable. So Summit Hutjoins Portland's next adventure.
As Goa accounts calling it aday in 2025. The reaction was swift,
(20:07):
with most people lamenting theloss of a shop that has often been
held up as an example of aspecial. As an exact shining example
of a special outdoor retail.And then of course, there are those
who are wondering how theindustry can survive if a shop like
Summit Hut can't make it. Alot to talk about here. So let's
start with the big picture, Iguess just for both of you, maybe.
Owen, if you want to kick usoff, what are your general thoughts
(20:28):
after hearing this news aboutSummit Hut?
Well, first was really sadnessfor Dana and Jeremy and the whole
crew there who really pouredtheir heart and soul into the business
for the past decades. This wasnot a decision, I'm sure that was
made lightly and yeah, itdefinitely hurts. Second, it really
(20:50):
got me thinking about all thefactors that are feeding into the
issue and the pressure that ison independent outdoor specialty
stores, whether that's D2Ccompetition, aging core customers,
rising labor, rent, operatingcosts, even. Actually climate change
is something because theclimate is affecting how people get
go outdoors or how they can gooutdoors in places like Tucson, Arizona.
(21:13):
So yeah, a lot of differentthoughts swirling around over this
one.
Dave, how about you?
You know, I just, I kind ofecho all of that. I've been to it
one time in my career down inTucson and I just the big wide open
kind of space. I always justkind of looked at it as definitely
an aspirational model in termsof just creating an inviting store.
(21:36):
It definitely had. They werekind of a little more ahead of the
game, modernized in terms ofmerchandising and just kind of creating
this open space.
Yeah.
We've talked about how therehave been transfers of ownership
of outdoor retailers over thepast few years, especially per the
goa. There's some goodstatistics about changing off to
new owners and stuff likethat. But when two stores like Summit
Hunt or Next Adventureoutright close and there is no new
(21:58):
shop not named REI that weknow of anyway to take its place,
what does that really sayabout the state of outdoor retail?
I think you have to look atthe chains that are doing well today
within GOA are the chains thatare growing, adding stores. I call
them the mini chains. Theyhave like 20 plus stores. Really
(22:19):
the big three that I'm seeingright now, you've Got Gearhead Outfitters,
you've got Half MoonOutfitters and then Mountain High
Outfitters. So they're alloutfitters apparently, but really
they're not outfitters becausethey're all very lifestyle focused.
I mean, you might see somegear like a Patagonia Black Hole,
(22:41):
duffel, et cetera, but despitetheir names, you're really not going
to out for yourself for abackpacking trip in any of these
stores. And it's really muchmore focused on fashion driven what
I would say are more impulsepurchases. And there's nothing wrong
with that, right? Becausethey're just stocking what is selling.
But they're not a classic gearstore in the Summit Hut sense. Right.
(23:06):
And I really feel that thattrue outdoor gear shop, like a Summit
Hut or Next Adventure for thatmatter, is in a much tougher spot
because, well, a gear hasgotten so specialized, right. You
can't just have like, youcan't like have one, you know, expedition
pack on the wall and call it aday, right. I mean, you can't have
just one tent, right. I mean,you really have to have a lot of,
(23:27):
a lot of different, differentassortment. And it's also, it's,
it's become such a consideredpurchase that unless you're an outdoor
gift store that's at adestination, like, you know, the
entryway to, you know, to anational park or something, people
are going online, right? Andthey're going on just to research.
(23:47):
And then when they, whenthey're online, they're seeing, oh,
I can get 15% off my firstpurchase at, you know, whatever site.com,
right. And so then they'regoing to maybe buy there and not
so much in that, in that localgear store.
So I'm just becoming growinglyincreasingly more convinced that
the loudest voices in the roomhere, they don't understand where
the industry is actuallyheaded and simply want to force the
(24:09):
industry to fit their owndefinition of it. Like based on what
you just said. Exactly, right.I mean, the things that are growing
are different than what we'vehad historically. I mean, we don't
know what's happened at SummitHut. I mean, I'm sure there's a lot
of factors. I mean, Dana saidit in her post, or whoever wrote
the post, that there were alot of factors that played into this
decision. I've actuallyreached out to Dana as well to hopefully
(24:29):
she'll join the pod at somepoint to kind of talk about it. But
I just feel like the days ofthe hardcore gear shop are over.
We've talked about this on thepodcast, but this kind of just really
drives home the point to me. Idon't think this doesn't mean that
the outdoor industry can'tgrow and thrive, because it is growing
and thriving just in adifferent way. I mean, if you look
at the recent OIAparticipation report, again, more
(24:50):
people participating, it'sbeing led by blacks and Latinos,
so different people are goingoutside than have in the past. I
think the reality is thebroader path that's being forged
by retailers, it's focused,like you said, went on less technical
products. And even REI islikely to be the new normal. And
if you want or need that moretechnical product, you can go to
a GGG or you can buy directfrom the brand to get them. I mean,
(25:13):
honestly, we kind of applyOccam's Razor to the industry. Isn't
that sort of the simplest andmost likely explanation for what
we're seeing? I mean, I gotmultiple messages this week of like,
how can the industry hope tosurvive if Summit Hut can't make
it? I just don't think. Ithink that just doesn't acknowledge
the sort of broader trendsthat seem pretty obvious. If you
really take the step back andlook at it.
(25:34):
I don't know it's quite that simple.
It's that simple.
Of course it is. You'reabsolutely right. Colin, thank you.
Moving on.
No, just because. Okay. What Ithink you have to ask yourself the
question. First of all, I'mnot sure I totally buy that all outdoor
gear shops are going to goaway. I think there is going to be
(25:54):
sort of a molding and adifference and some folks that maybe
don't change with the timessomewhat, maybe they won't survive.
But a good gear shop that'sproviding great service to their
customers I think has a place.But let's just take what you're saying
as actually the truth, thatoutdoor gear shops are going to go
(26:16):
away as we know them. I guessthe question becomes, what will that
do to the industry? What willit do in terms of participation?
I personally think that wouldbe an awful thing for the industry.
It would be an awful thing forparticipation. I think a lot of people's
first experience with theoutdoors and getting into the outdoor
(26:36):
gear is at their local gearshop. And maybe the local gear shop
didn't carry everything, butyou went in there and there were
people that loved doing thethings that you were trying to get
into, perhaps, and wereexcited about it and could tell you
about it and could tell youabout what kind of pack you needed
and do all these things andreally shepherd you through that
process. And if that goesaway, are we just relying on ChatGPT
(27:00):
for that? I mean, is thatwhere we're, where we're going here?
I don't. Why does it have tobe one or the other? I mean, if I
went. If you went to agearhead outfitters who is not kind
of to your point, like alittle softer, sorry for the word.
Right. Why couldn't you havethat same experience? Just because
they're not selling kayaks andice axes, but they're selling, you
know, they sell some hardgoods with mostly soft goods and
shoes. I think, like, there'sa lot more. I think the younger consumers
(27:22):
especially are conditioned toshop that way and look at different
things and go to secondhandstores. And maybe like, maybe it's
like, ah, you know, I can goto a gearhead online or I can go
to ggg or maybe there is thatsort of store that is still positioned
by the national park that hasmore things. And when I'm in town
I go there, but I can stillhave the new authentic experience
is just. Is a little bitdifferent than what we experience.
(27:45):
And you're right, I amspeaking hyperbolic with some hyperbole
that, you know, it's all goingto go away. It's not all going to
go away because there arelocations where it will make sense
to do it. I just think it's a.I bristle at the, you know, the industry
can't survive if we don't haveit the way it was before. And I think
(28:05):
what we're seeing is there's aclear evolution. Maybe we don't know
where it ends up that ishappening and people are still going
outside more than they everhave before. So I just want to kind
of almost meet it on its ownterms and be like, okay, so what
does this actually mean? Whereare things being sold? Where are
people actually shopping? Andwhat does that mean for getting more
people outside or supportingthe people who are already going
outside?
Well, I was just going to sayI agree with Owen in that the shop
(28:30):
isn't dead. It's changing andwe might be in a downward ebb, but
it will flow and it will fillthe spaces left. Once we see where
the legacy, let's call it thelegacy specialty world is kind of
falling apart. E Commerce isfilling in these new brands. GGG
(28:51):
being part of that world. Andsomewhere there's going to create
these spaces. And I think toyour point, it's going to be from
people who have not beentraditionally A part of the industry
ecosystem. Building thesespaces, for example, we've lose.
We're losing Next Adventure. Imean, you can't really replace that
as a footprint in Portlandspecifically. But nearby is opening
(29:13):
up a new core outdoor shop bya couple from Venezuel, and they're
really focusing kind of on theLatino experience in outdoor. They
bring some, you know, heavy,like out wilderness, backcountry,
wilderness chops. But it's asmall concept piece and it's going
to be very much weighted totrying to be more. Inviting more
(29:33):
people in. And so that's anexample. Does it replace Next Adventure?
No, but it's absolutely theseeds for the next generation to
grow and finding that spacesin between. And maybe they couldn't
have done that necessarily ifyou still had an outside presence
right. By some of these folks.And so maybe there is some creative
destruction going on. As muchas I hate to see some of these great
(29:55):
places and spaces go, I just,I think that there's too much, too
much vitality in thisindustry. And again, what we represent,
the idea of going outside tonature is a very strong pull. So
I think it's going to bring.Bring us along with it.
But where are all the straightwhite males supposed to shop if that's
what the future is? That'swhat I'm worried about.
(30:17):
Well, Dicks and Foot Locker emerging.
Okay.
There. I feel better. Thankyou for reminding me about the Dixon
Foot Locker. Got worried for asecond there.
Yeah. But I'm certainly notwilling just to write off traditional
outdoor gear stores. I thinkthat there's a lot that can be done
both from the retailers, butalso from the brands to give make
(30:41):
sure that those stores arehealthy in the future. And so. And
we'll get to this in a littlebit. But I did start looking at what's.
What are some of the brandsand what are some of the things they
can do to help those stores.
Yeah, listen, I am notobviously, I love gear shops. I'm
of the same generation as youguys of like, that's my memory as
well. I just some sort of. Youknow, again, my reaction to this
(31:03):
is, number one, we don't. Weweren't running Summit Hut, so we
don't, you know, only theyreally understand the position they
were in and why they were hadto stay open or decide to close.
There are multiple trends atplay going on here, and I think the
landscape is changing. Isthere a world where a more traditional
(31:23):
gear shop can thrive? I'm surethere is, absolutely. And I want
that to happen. Because Iagree with you, Owen. I think there's
nothing quite like walkinginto a shop like that and just that
feeling of like, oh my God,all I want to do is go outside and
do stuff now. But I also don'tthink. I also think that that doesn't
mean it can't be experiencedin other ways. And probably the trends
are moving that way forcertain markets specific. And there's
(31:44):
the presence of online and allthe other ways that you can procure
things these days that kind ofcomplicate that. So I don't know,
just be interesting to monitorhow this plays out in the coming
years.
How's your Spanish, Colin?
Not great.
Not great?
No.
Loco por la Adventura.
Is that the name of the shopin Portland?
(32:05):
That's the name of the shop. Iwanted to give them a. I mean, I
mentioned them, but I didn'tsay their name. Loco. Loco por la
Adventura. Base CampMountaineering Center.
When does it open?
Crazy for adventure.
That's crazy for adventure.Yeah, they are. They're open now.
They're open now.
All right, so yeah, you gottago. You gotta take some pictures,
right?
(32:25):
Absolutely.
All right, so let's move on tothe next piece of this conversation
because we know there's a lotof complexity in running a retail
shop or a brand that isevident more than ever in today's
outdoor landscape, asevidenced by the conversation we
just had. But let's move fromthe retail part of it to the brand
side because our ownconsigliere attempted this week to
quantify who was out theredoing a good job on the brand front.
And this week, Owen created abrand scorecard to see was checking
(32:49):
the most boxes when it came tohow he views best practices for partnering
with retailers. So, Owen, walkus through what you created.
This actually started with thewhole Summit Hut thing, right? Because
I was thinking about theimpact of D2C and brands, all this
stuff on outdoor specialretailers. And I started to look
at how many brands have emailsignup discounts and then it became
(33:10):
this whole. Basically it blewa whole afternoon. But anyway, let's
get into what this snowballedinto. So I came up. It's a hundred
point scale. The first thingis email signup. Okay. You get 30
points if your email signup isnot a discount. All right, so if
there's no discount, that'sthat, that is 30 points. And then
(33:35):
really if, if it's. If it's 10point, 10% or under, I'm going to
give you a little bit. I'llgive you I'll give you 10 points.
If it is 15% or under, you getfive points. But if it's like 20%
or more, zero points. Okay.
Okay.
So that's, that's the discountfor if.
You start shopping on theirwebsite, you get a discount off of
your order.
Exactly. Yes.
Okay.
(33:55):
Right. The second thing was,is your main message a sale message,
like on your homepage? Thefirst thing you see is that, is that
a sale message? Now, infairness, I did this the Thursday
before Labor Day, so it iskind of a salesy period. So whatever.
But even with that though, 64%of the brands I looked at didn't
(34:16):
have one. Interesting. So itis possible to not have a sale message.
And if you didn't, you got 20points. The next thing I looked at
was the top navigation on thesite. So the persistent navigation,
if you have a persistent salessection always there at the top of
the page, you get zero pointsif you don't have one. If you avoid
that, you get 10 points. Okay,so this is all about sort of the
(34:38):
whole discount orientation ofthe site. That's the first thing.
The second thing we looked atwas to what degree are you supporting
your retailers by suggestingthat they are a place that you could
buy the brand? The main thingis on the product page, the PDP.
Right. Because if you get 30points on the product page, like
(34:59):
below the add to cart, you'resaying, and this is available in
these actual stores right nearyou. And there were actually three
of the 25 brands that didthat. So you get 30 points for that.
You get 20 points if youdidn't actually call it the brand.
But there's like a link thatsays buy it locally or find a store
near you right on the productpage just below the add to cart button.
(35:21):
So that was worth 20 points.And then if you had a dealer locator
up in the top navigation,again, so prominently up there at
the top of the page, notburied at the bottom, at the top
of every page, you get 10points for that. So all of that adds
up to 100 points. And then Ijust, I did like 25 total brands.
So who are the top brands likeand who could stand and maybe, you
know, take a little look inthe mirror and reevaluate their priorities
(35:44):
in life?
Well, so there were two brandshad the a perfect 100 point score,
although one of them has anasterisk. So Oboz, our own sponsor,
Oboz, love hiking oboes. Thatsame oboes, 100 points, perfect score.
Brooks also get 100 points.But a bit of an asterisk because
(36:04):
they do offer a discount fortheir email, but only on their apparel,
which isn't really their corestuff. So I'm like, okay, so they
get 100 points with anasterisk. But then the other folks
that were in what I call tierone, so 75 to 100, Nemo equipment,
obviously. Big friend of thepod, Rab. Another friend of the pod,
(36:24):
by the way. I didn't have themon the initial list and then they
bugged me. So I figured outtheir score.
What about us?
Nice job. Yeti is up there.And then not a friend of the pod.
No, unfortunately. And thenSolomon, which is absolutely, totally
a friend of the pod.
Massive friend of the pod Solomon.
That brand I've never heard of.
(36:46):
We love them so much. We talkabout them all the time.
The reality is we probably dojust because of the one time we.
Sure we do.
So. Right, right. They werethe, they were the tier one and then
sort of tier two, sort of the50 to 75. And this is in, in order
of, of of decreasing score. Soarc' Teryx on Big Agnes Xed Cool
(37:08):
Osprey, smartwool, Fjall Ravenand Patagonia.
And actually Patagonia, someheavy hitters in tier two.
In tier two and Patagonia waskind of right there at the 50 point
level. They used to be liketop of the like one. I was, I've
watched Patty Gunny over theyears. They now have a discount,
email sign up discount whichthey didn't used to have and they
(37:30):
dropped their retailer locatorfrom their product page within the
last 12 months. So that'sokay. Shame. Yes. But the thing that
really occurred to me thoughas I looked at most of these brands
in these top tiers is, youknow, these are, these top scoring
brands are some of thehealthiest brands that are out there
(37:50):
right now in terms of growth,et cetera. Right. And so I guess
the question you ask yourselfis are they healthy because they
do all these things or is itbecause they have healthy sales and
demand that they can afford todo these things? They don't have
to discount. They can affordto support the retailers because
(38:11):
they're healthy or vice versa.So yeah, a bit of a chicken or an
egg kind of scenario.
Honestly, that plays in alittle the conversation we were just
having coming off the SummitHut news.
Right.
It's like that's kind of. AndDana, or again whoever wrote it alludes
to it and the reasons whythey're closing of like these market
forces are chaotic if notanything else. Right. And so the
idea of like, this is also whoyou're up against and what they're
(38:31):
doing, and then the power thatthese folks have in terms of the
money they have in theirpockets to spend versus an independent
retailer. And when I say,like, you know, hey, the, the era
of the gear shop maybe beingover, it's not to say that the era
of the specialty outdoorretailer is over. It is to say, like,
I see why the special is goingwhere it's going, right? The assortment
and the inventory and thingsthat you have to have to be a true
(38:52):
traditional gear shop. It'sgonna, it gets hard, especially if
you don't have like a bignational park or something next door
for people to constantly becoming in to use that stuff for.
Obviously it would help if,you know, when somebody does go onto
whatever the site is, let'ssay Osprey is a great example. You
go on the Osprey site, nodiscount, right? For, for the, for
(39:13):
signing up for their email.And, you know, when you do all that
research and you figure outwhich of, you know, I don't know,
expedition packs are the rightones for you, and you get onto that
product display page, there'sa link right there that says find
it locally. Okay, Right,right. That is what we need if you're
going to support gear storeslong term.
All right, so do we want totalk about the third tier?
(39:36):
Well, let's skip the thirdtier and let's just go to the fourth
tier, which is the lowesttier. So this is 0 to 24 giving a
tier. Well, just because, youknow, they're kind of in the middle.
I mean, they're whatever.
All right, all right, that'sfair. Let's go to the bot bottom.
Let's do it.
Yeah. And so tier four again,from high to low, but high being
(39:56):
20 points. We've got Cotopaxi,Friend of the Pod, Helly Hansen,
obviously the new Contourbrands, Keen, Columbia, Kelty, Marmot
and Prana. So I think you cansee it's sort of the opposite of
the other side of that scalein terms of brands that are maybe
(40:18):
not doing so well. So again,are they not doing well because they're,
they're not doing thesethings, or are they doing these things
because they feel the heat?They need to, you know, cut off any
sales to, to their, to theirretail partners. They need to. I
mean, all of these folks haddiscounts of anywhere from 10 to
20% off.
So, Dave, are you worriedbummed that we didn't see this before
(40:40):
we talked to Matt Sutton at Columbia.
Well, we're gonna, we're gonnadefinitely separate church and state
on our conversation about the.Yes, yes, but look, I mean, to that
point, is it not doing well?It's also, you've got a lot of direct
first kind of mindsets here.You've got some, you know, they've.
All of these brands tend to bemuch more inward focused and so,
(41:03):
you know, maybe you'd thinkthey'd be a little more sensitive
to the needs of a retailerseeing that they run their own retail
and would know that. I alsofind it interesting that some of
the, you know, if you're doingall things right in the retail space,
yet your brand isn't growinglike you want it to, maybe it's not
your retail space, maybe it'snot even your product, maybe it's
(41:26):
your brand, maybe it's someother things that you're not taking
a look at in the same way. Sothis does kind of reveal some, I
don't know, opportunity areasto assess from.
What I would tell you is thatI think a lot of what I put out here
is not news to most retailers.If you ask the west sounds of the
(41:49):
world, which side of thisgroup are they buying from? It's
definitely the people at thetop of the, of the list. Right. Because
they're supporting them.They're supporting and they're driving
full margin sales. So it is avirtuous cycle, I think at the top
of this list. So one thing Idid want to point out as a correction
here, that actually versus theversion that went out on LinkedIn,
(42:13):
Mountain Hardware actually wasinitially in this Tier 4 group and
friend of the prod, TroySaicott reached out and corrected
me that actually they do havea link on their product page to their
dealers and so that bumpedthem up into tier three. So just
so that we're all clear that.Yes, good call. Yes.
(42:35):
I tell you what, this isinteresting about this. And again,
just back and all this stuffcan get tied back to all of our conversations
around core versus casual andthe way even the Columbia ad reaction
and there's so much vibe andemotion tied into so many opinions
on the show included Right. Inthe outdoor industry. And what I
(42:56):
did love about this, Owen, isthat I loved having a metric to go
off of.
Sure.
Right. All of that was asaying about, well, maybe why would
a gear shop stock certainthings or whatever. And it's like,
well, did anybody. It's allfeel. It's like, well, this brand
kind of does well andEverything. But it's like, hold on,
let's put some numbers to thisand show you why perhaps that something's
either a little bit morechallenging or what are the broader
(43:18):
market forces that arehappening that are leading to the
results you're getting or notgetting in your shop with these particular
brands. How does this apply toyour assortment? Because your point
about like a Wes or somebodylike them, if they're in that top
tier, you know, maybe they'renot having some of the same issues
as some of the other brandswho are a little bit heavier on brands
at the bottom tier. And it maysound like a small thing, but to
your point, like people are,we're learning this with, again with
(43:39):
talking to Lloyd at GGG andwith all the other brands that we
have a chance to talk tobecause of our podcast and you start
to understand the landscape ofoutdoor brands and outdoor adjacent
brands is much larger than youmay think. And the business that's
happening on the direct sideis much larger than you might think.
And that will trickle down tothese folks who are incredibly important
(44:00):
to our industry on the retailside. And they might not even have
any purview of like, why it'seven happening, you know. So, like
doing this is actually, it'sfun, but it's also, I think, really
important.
Yeah, it does. Lots of peopleare asking me about adding other
brands to the list. And yeah,this is definitely not meant to be
exhaustive, but moreillustrative of, hey, these are some
(44:23):
of the things that reallymatter in terms of what drive business
for a retailer or full pricebusiness for a retailer. These are
things that really matter. Andso it's pretty straightforward for
people to come up with theirown score and to say, okay, should
I be on sale or should I not?I think it would be cool to revisit
this. Maybe not during a saleseason, to be fair to all the brands.
(44:44):
Maybe during peak season, peakfall season, peak spring season and
see, see where they are, seewhere we come out. Also track these
things over time. Like I'msaying with Patagonia, for example,
actually going backwards asthey remove dealer links from their
homepages just to keep trackon where the vibes are going. Or
(45:06):
like Viori, for example. Ithought Viori would be top of the
list. Top of the list, not. Sono links to the dealers on the PDP,
but more surprisingly, a 20%discount for email signup, which
isn't. I don't think that'show they used to be, which tells
me what's going on with Vuori.
(45:26):
Is it what's going on withyour Fiori or is it again just another
one of those indicators of theinfluence that performance marketing
still has on this. And sothat's such. You get that over and
over and over. And so you'vegot this pull between the wholesale
side, the brand people andthis performance piece. And 20% is
infuriating. If I'm both in abrand or a sales perspective and
(45:48):
for I would argue for a brandlike Riori, is it even really necessary?
Right.
Are you really attracting thatmuch more first time consumer because
of the 20? No, they're therebecause they want the brand or they
felt the product in store andhow soft it is. Like, it's like be
confident in that. Right.Continue, continue to lead versus
like have to grovel.
(46:09):
So that's become so endemicjust in terms of like almost any
DTC brand. The expectationwhen you land on the site is here's
at least 15% off for signingup for email. And it does, I think
beg the question, okay, we'reacquiring that customer, but we're
acquiring them with a discountright off the bat. Is that the right
way to go?
Well, guys, that's the showfor today. No parting shot today.
(46:30):
We went along with everythingelse. And so we do want your emails.
Send them in. Retailers, sendit in. We'd love to hear what you
think about Summit Hut. Whatdo you think about the state of the
world? What do you think aboutOwens metrics and the brands that
you work with? Send yourfeedback to myrockfightmail.com the
Rock Fight's a production ofRock Fight LLC. Today's episode is
produced by producer Dave Artdirection provided by Sarah Gensert
(46:51):
for Owen Comerford. I'm ColinTrue. Thank you for listening and
here to take us out, it'sChris Da Makes with the Rock Fight
Fight song. And we'll see younext time. Rock Fighters.
Yay.
Rock fight. Rock fight. Rockfight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Welcome
to the rock bike where wespeak our truth Slay sacred cows
(47:15):
and sometimes agree todisagree. We talk about human powered
outdoor activities and bigbites about topics that we find interesting
like pop culture music, thelatest movie reviews, ideas that
aim for the hate. This iswhere we speak our truth. This is
(47:36):
where we speak our truth. Rockfight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Welcome
to the rock flight. Rockfight. Rock fight. Welcome to the
rock flight. Rock flight. Rockfight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock
fight. Welcome to the Rockfight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock
(48:00):
fight. Rock flag fight.
Hey, everyone, before we keepgoing here, I need to tell you about
our teammates at DarbyCommunications. Like I've been telling
you, if you run an outdoor, anendurance or an active lifestyle
brand, there is no better PRand digital marketing belay partner
or drinking buddy than Darby.They can help your business reach
new heights, and they mightjust keep you from falling on your
ass. Since we started workingwith Darby, more and more people.
(00:20):
And this is an important pointnow. Guys, I want you to hear me
on this. More and more peoplehave reached out to us here at the
Rock Flight because of thatmessaging. Look, guys, I'm dead serious.
If they can help us, they canhelp anybody. Hit them up@darbycommunications.com
do it today. Welcome to theRock Fight, where we speak our truth,
(00:48):
slay sacred cows, andsometimes agree to disagree. This
is an outdoor podcast thataims for the head. I'm Colin True,
and joining me today, straightfrom the top of the podcast charts,
it's the Monday boys. Outdoorindustry insider Owen Comerford and
brand and creative expertproducer Dave. What's up, guys?
Hello.
Hello.
We are straight from the top,from the podcast charts. Yeah, I
(01:08):
want everyone.
Well, we're at the bottom ofthe top.
Well, that's still close tothe top.
It sure is. It sure is.
The sports chart, not just theoutdoor charts.
Right, right. Yeah, yeah,that's right.
We have conquered the outdoorcharts, except for the. The meat
eating carnivore group, which who's.
Ever going to top. No.
(01:29):
And you want to stay kind ofyour distance from that. You don't
want to get caught up in thatfrenzy. Oh, my gosh.
But that, yeah, the sportstrack, I mean, we. We beat some pretty,
like, known names out there.That's kind of wild.
Basically, what we're sayingsuck at other outdoor podcasts.
No, we're not saying that. No,no, we're not saying that. Colin
(01:50):
is saying that. Producer Daveand I are definitely not saying that.
Thank you.
Thank you.
On today's show, we are goingto be talking about some headlines
that come out of the outdoorindustry. But before we get to any
of that, some programmingreminders. Tomorrow, Doug Schnitzman
opens the container like healways does on Tuesday. So head over
to the open container feed andfollow that show. His guest this
(02:11):
week is author andphotographer Andrew Cornelak. And
no doubt we'll have anotherepisode of the Rock Fight later this
week. But what really mattersis that this Thursday, September
4, is Gear Abbey launch day,hosted by our own Shante Salibair.
Gear. Abby will answer yourBurning Outdoor questions. So be
sure to follow that show aswell so you don't miss Thursday's
two episode drop and hey,Dave, how, how can our listeners
(02:35):
get more out of theirexperience with all of the Rock Fight
properties?
Rock Fight Co, Colin. RockFight Co. Newsletters, websites,
lots of pretty pictures.That's the place to go.
One of these days I'll writeanother newsletter. It will happen,
I promise.
I know.
But you know what? Now thatyou've got press junkets and all
(02:56):
this heat coming from thishighly rated PODC podcast, who knows
it's true? Who knows it's true?
I think pretty sure we'rebooked on the Tonight show next week,
guys. I hope you got your,your flight ready. Like, oh my God,
the Rock Fights.
I think you're gonna say wewere booked on Colbert, but then
you know.
Oh, is that something going on?
We're the first guest afterthey shut it down. That is exactly
(03:17):
right.
Oh, guys, you just missed thecut. Oh, and how can our listeners
also reach out to us?
Well, they can emailus@myrockfightmail.com, reach out
on LinkedIn, just search forRockfight or on Instagram, where
we are RockfightCo. All oneword and you can follow along, Send
(03:39):
us a message. But please,email, I think is the best. It's
the one that makes Colinhappiest, I think.
Well, you as well, you're anemail guy. Dave is a purely text
guy. So I have to live at theintersection of text and email with
coordinating with you guysgenerational trauma.
You can do it.
Well, actually, Colin is aphone guy. That's true. Yes. He,
(04:03):
he'll just. I'll see that popup on the phone. I, I don't have
an extra 30 minutes.
I'm sorry. I'm never offendedif, no, if people don't answer, but
if I'm out and about, I'mlike, I'll give it a call. Maybe
you'll pick up. You knowwhat's going to happen.
We have the three mediumscovered between phone, email and
text, so.
All right, so quick Mailbag.After our conversation last week
(04:24):
on the Mon with the Mondayboys about the Nike Lava Dome and
then also the new trend ofgravel shoes, we heard from Wilderness
Exchange owner Don Bushy,former champion on the Rock Fight,
who had this to say aboutgravel shoes. Specifically, said
Colin, I can concur that everyspecialty retailer on earth is euphoric
to add gravel yet anothercategory to their already bloated
(04:45):
and skewed drifted footwearwalls. At. While at Wilderness, we're
even setting up a new gravelmicrometer tech bench where we can
determine through customersourced field specimens the average
gravel size of the surface inquestion and accurately recommend
the appropriate tread, treaddepth for their local trail.
Wow.
Excellent email, Don Bushy.
(05:05):
See, that is the kind ofservice that really sets independent
specialty retail apart.
Yeah, I agree. I agree.
I wish more footwear designersand product people would talk to
people like Don Bushy beforethey start making things. Because
I can see it. You could seethe room, right? Like, hey man, what
(05:26):
if we had a gravel? You know,gravel bikes are crushing it out
there. What if we had a gravelshoe? Oh, my God. Great idea, Bill.
Let's, let's get on that. Youknow, like no man talk to Don. He
doesn't want a gravel shoe.
A lot of it is also, you know,we're really a trail running brand.
Nobody will believe us if wedo road, but if we do gravel, that's
the stepping stone. Yes, exactly.
(05:48):
Look out, Asics, here we come.Thanks, Don, for writing in. All
right, let's move on to theopening shot of today's episode,
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All right, guys. So today,first up, per sgb, Foot Locker shareholders
have voted to approve theacquisition of the famed retailer
by Dick's Sporting Goods,bringing the merger of the two one
step closer to fruition, saidMary Dillon, Foot Lockers CEO, quote,
we are now one step closer tojoining forces with Dick's and even
(06:52):
better, positioning thebusiness to expand sneaker culture,
elevate the Omni Channelexperience for our customers and
brand partners, and enhanceour position in the industry. So,
Owen, just looking ahead, it'sbeen a minute since we touched on
this story. Any big hurdlesstill looming, you think, for this
merger to be finalized?
Well, I think that was prettymuch it they've passed the FTC review
(07:14):
period where somebody mighthave raised an objection about the
antitrust or uncompetitivenature of two really big retailers
joining together. That'spassed. So yeah, I think it's going
to close here on the 8th of September.
So we've been tracking thisstory since it was announced in May.
(07:36):
And given how the tariffturmoil has played out since then,
do you think there's anyconcerns or predictions for the footwear
world if and what sounds likeand when the merger is finalized?
I don't think so. Like we weretalking about last week that just
that the overall momentum thatwe're seeing in the, in the footwear
category, it has been suchthat it hasn't really been derailed
by the whole tariff thing.It's just been a bit of a road bump
(08:00):
for footwear. Plus most ofit's now concentrated in Vietnam,
which is actually settled inat a 20% level, which I think is
going to stick for a while.Who the heck knows. But that's the
current feeling. The otherthing I would say is that the for
industry is not unused totariffs because it's one of the higher
tariff areas. Historicallyanywhere from 20 to 37.5% is what
(08:25):
they were facing even beforeall this thing happened. So I think
they're used to workingthrough that. To me, the concern
from investors and the stockwas down a little bit post Dick's
earnings on Thursday. Theconcern though is that Foot Locker
may be just becoming more of aboat anchor, right? You've got Dick's
(08:47):
and they're going in differentdirections, right? You've got Dick's
Q2 comp sales up 5% continuedreally strong results there. Foot
locker down 2% yet againcontinued down, down and down. Dick's
Gross margin up 33 basispoints. Foot locker down 50 basis
points. So it's not, not agreat scenario there. I think overall
(09:13):
though, like what, what doesit mean for the wider industry is
that, and this came up onDick's earnings call yesterday, they
view their relationship withall these brands, especially Nike,
as really the way for them tounlock the, the value at Foot Locker
by improving their, theirassortment. Right? So getting more
(09:33):
quote unquote high heat stylesinto those stores which then drive
a differentiated assortment,more full price sales, more higher
value sales. Right? All this,all this good stuff. The issue though
is that there's a finiteamount of those high heat styles
or demand for those high heatstyles. So the allocation, if they
(09:55):
are going to get moreallocation has to come from somewhere
so it's either going to comefrom the D2C sites for those brands.
Maybe probably not. Right. Orit's going to come from other retailers.
And that's probably the biggerconcern, especially for the outdoor
industry because we stock alot of these brands, whether it's
on or Brooks or Hoka, etcetera, but we're not really core
(10:19):
for those brands. And so arewe going to see potentially less
of the high end, the Cliftons,the Clouds, et cetera, from those
brands for outdoor?
I'm actually more interestedin this conversation of Dicks and
footlocker. You know, thatmerging together in one. Colin, it
must be set. Are we waitingfor Dick Locker?
(10:44):
Yes.
Right.
The call of the House of Sports.
Is that in the inevitable. Isthat where this goes to?
Yes.
You had to Dick Locker on yourway to House of Sports, I think is
what happened.
I think so too. The best ofboth worlds together.
That's amazing.
No comment.
(11:05):
And with that, it's time forthe lightning round. All right, so
earlier this week, SanFrancisco 49ers running back Christian
McCaffrey has taken an equitystake in performance and apparel
footwear brand While on Earth.I've never heard of them, but apparently
that's a thing. Owen, do youthink McCaffrey's involvement will
(11:26):
result in an on the bench lineof performance clothing for those
who are often injured?
I think maybe it might be thatthe special 3F line for a fancy football
fiasco. I think that would bespeaking from personal experience.
Oh, did you have McCaffreylast year on your fantasy football
team?
Maybe on one of them. I mean.Yeah. Hey, that's rough. That is
(11:48):
rough. I think the interestingthing here is that he's given up
that sweet, sweet Nike moneyto do this. Right?
Yeah.
And while it, while, you know,I think people look at the, the Kim
Kardashians of the world orwhatever and then think, oh, well,
I can, I can do that. If youthink about it, right, let's say
(12:09):
he's given up 2 million ayear. Okay. Just from. From a dollars
and cents perspective and he'sgot partners and whatever else. Okay,
this thing's going to need tobe like a hundred million dollars
and it's going to lose moneyfor like two or three years. Of course,
all new brands do. Right. Soit's going to require money, right,
to get. I mean, this thingneeds to get to be like $100 million
(12:29):
before he gets paid back forall those Nike dollars he missed
along the way. I mean, I don'tknow. It's it's interesting.
Next thing last week,performance textile maker Polartech
debuted Power Dry mesh whichthey describe in short as lightweight
warm weather fleece. So Dave,not to take a shot of our at our
former employer, but whentrying to mark when we're trying
to market something eternallyassociated with cold weather, which
(12:51):
is fleece, and now they'retrying to do it as something you
can use in the summertime. Arewe officially scraping the bottom
of the fabric barrel?
Oh well, look, Power Dry is along time part of the Polartec stable,
right. It's one of the baselayers known for See this is the
interesting. It's known formoisture wicking. It's got dry in
(13:14):
the name, right? And so you'vegot this moisture wicking base layer.
They are and you know it's abi component knit. So you're putting
two pieces together, you'renot blending it. And this has really
been kind of Polartech'scalling card, like putting fibers
where they need to go to dothe most good. So it kind of fits
into that that they'reexpanding out and they've done different
versions of Power Drivebefore. So this isn't totally new
(13:36):
and I think it's just more inthe actually speaks to a couple things.
One, versatility is whatthey're all about. They're trying
to give you the widest rangewith their lines for your use. But
really too this just speaks tothe time period they are in their
brand and kind of theirownership. They're in the iterative
stage. We're not seeing anykind of leaps in technology or leaps
(13:57):
in innovation. It's how can wemine more out of our current platforms
to give them a little bit,just a little nudge in a different
direction to create a new usecase story. So I think that's how
it just all fits together. Butthe idea of something of warm weather,
fleece is a tough word forthat. But this idea of just warm
enough is I think somethingthey're really, really looking at.
(14:19):
It's an interesting answer,but the correct answer was yes, we
are officially scraping thebottom of the fabric barrel.
No, hey, actually I work witha brand called Ewer and they just
released a warm weatherversion of their fleece treasure
dress and it sold out in hours.
I think on a garmentperspective that makes a lot. I see
that and I know what they'regoing for with this. It's like all
(14:41):
kidding aside and I think thatmakes sense. Sense. I just think
the Dave's point Fleece, whenI'm if I'M a product designer, and
you're showing me. Oh, here'ssummer fleece. It might be a little
like, okay, guys, like, youknow, how many other lightweight
fabrics do I have to choosefrom? But that's an interesting point
about what you were doing, andI'm sure I can picture it in my head,
and I can. I want to go checkit out now. All right, last story
for the lightning round. Aftera disappointing second quarter for
(15:01):
Athleta, their owner, GapIncorporated, is predicting a reset
to return to form will take afair amount of time as they make
moves to right the ship. Oh,and Athleta is a founding member
of brands that led to the riseof Athleisure. Given where modern
trends are and where Athletasits today, can we safely say that
Athleisure is officially dead?
No, but that's. That's aclassic. True hot take. No. Yeah.
(15:29):
No, no. The industry is dead,Colin. Everything dead. Podcasting
is dead.
Podcasting's dead.
That's right.
The rock fight's on thecharts. We can't have podcasting
anymore.
No, but I would say it isdefinitely oversaturated. I mean,
basically, every brand that iseven, like, tangentially related
(15:49):
to anything active has joinedthe Athleisure trend, including,
let's face it, a lot ofoutdoor brands, Right?
Oh, yeah.
So, yeah, I think that'sreally more of the story here. The
other thing I would say isthat they just also announced as
part of this that they'vemoved on to their second president
since REI's Marybeth Lawtonleft the president role two years
(16:13):
ago. So I'm guessing MB isgoing, aha. So, yeah, see, this is.
You know, I guess thingsweren't so bad when I was first.
Weren't so bad back in theday, huh?
Exactly.
Mb, as always, you're alwayswelcome to come on the Rock Fight
and we can talk about. Wedon't have to talk about rei. Let's
talk about Atleta.
Let's talk about athletes.What the heck's going on?
(16:34):
Yes.
Stirring up some tea rightnow. Let's go.
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All right, Today's main eventon the Rock Fight is presented by
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(18:20):
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love hiking. Okay, big storytoday is about Summit Hut because
(19:23):
news out of the specialtyretail world last week is that the
well known GOA dealer SummitHut out of Tucson, Arizona announced
they would be closing. Per apost on their Instagram page, the
retailer stated that, quote,the past few years brought a combination
of pressures too great toovercome. Rising costs, brands selling
direct, new big boxcompetition, the push for lower prices,
(19:44):
shifts toward online shoppingand a changing customer base all
played a part. Summit Hutended up In a tough spot. Too big
to run super lean, but toosmall to compete with national chains.
We looked at every possibleoption, but in the end it just wasn't
sustainable. So Summit Hutjoins Portland's next adventure.
As Goa accounts calling it aday in 2025. The reaction was swift,
(20:07):
with most people lamenting theloss of a shop that has often been
held up as an example of aspecial. As an exact shining example
of a special outdoor retail.And then of course, there are those
who are wondering how theindustry can survive if a shop like
Summit Hut can't make it. Alot to talk about here. So let's
start with the big picture, Iguess just for both of you, maybe.
Owen, if you want to kick usoff, what are your general thoughts
(20:28):
after hearing this news aboutSummit Hut?
Well, first was really sadnessfor Dana and Jeremy and the whole
crew there who really pouredtheir heart and soul into the business
for the past decades. This wasnot a decision, I'm sure that was
made lightly and yeah, itdefinitely hurts. Second, it really
(20:50):
got me thinking about all thefactors that are feeding into the
issue and the pressure that ison independent outdoor specialty
stores, whether that's D2Ccompetition, aging core customers,
rising labor, rent, operatingcosts, even. Actually climate change
is something because theclimate is affecting how people get
go outdoors or how they can gooutdoors in places like Tucson, Arizona.
(21:13):
So yeah, a lot of differentthoughts swirling around over this
one.
Dave, how about you?
You know, I just, I kind ofecho all of that. I've been to it
one time in my career down inTucson and I just the big wide open
kind of space. I always justkind of looked at it as definitely
an aspirational model in termsof just creating an inviting store.
(21:36):
It definitely had. They werekind of a little more ahead of the
game, modernized in terms ofmerchandising and just kind of creating
this open space.
Yeah.
We've talked about how therehave been transfers of ownership
of outdoor retailers over thepast few years, especially per the
goa. There's some goodstatistics about changing off to
new owners and stuff likethat. But when two stores like Summit
Hunt or Next Adventureoutright close and there is no new
(21:58):
shop not named REI that weknow of anyway to take its place,
what does that really sayabout the state of outdoor retail?
I think you have to look atthe chains that are doing well today
within GOA are the chains thatare growing, adding stores. I call
them the mini chains. Theyhave like 20 plus stores. Really
(22:19):
the big three that I'm seeingright now, you've Got Gearhead Outfitters,
you've got Half MoonOutfitters and then Mountain High
Outfitters. So they're alloutfitters apparently, but really
they're not outfitters becausethey're all very lifestyle focused.
I mean, you might see somegear like a Patagonia Black Hole,
(22:41):
duffel, et cetera, but despitetheir names, you're really not going
to out for yourself for abackpacking trip in any of these
stores. And it's really muchmore focused on fashion driven what
I would say are more impulsepurchases. And there's nothing wrong
with that, right? Becausethey're just stocking what is selling.
But they're not a classic gearstore in the Summit Hut sense. Right.
(23:06):
And I really feel that thattrue outdoor gear shop, like a Summit
Hut or Next Adventure for thatmatter, is in a much tougher spot
because, well, a gear hasgotten so specialized, right. You
can't just have like, youcan't like have one, you know, expedition
pack on the wall and call it aday, right. I mean, you can't have
just one tent, right. I mean,you really have to have a lot of,
(23:27):
a lot of different, differentassortment. And it's also, it's,
it's become such a consideredpurchase that unless you're an outdoor
gift store that's at adestination, like, you know, the
entryway to, you know, to anational park or something, people
are going online, right? Andthey're going on just to research.
(23:47):
And then when they, whenthey're online, they're seeing, oh,
I can get 15% off my firstpurchase at, you know, whatever site.com,
right. And so then they'regoing to maybe buy there and not
so much in that, in that localgear store.
So I'm just becoming growinglyincreasingly more convinced that
the loudest voices in the roomhere, they don't understand where
the industry is actuallyheaded and simply want to force the
(24:09):
industry to fit their owndefinition of it. Like based on what
you just said. Exactly, right.I mean, the things that are growing
are different than what we'vehad historically. I mean, we don't
know what's happened at SummitHut. I mean, I'm sure there's a lot
of factors. I mean, Dana saidit in her post, or whoever wrote
the post, that there were alot of factors that played into this
decision. I've actuallyreached out to Dana as well to hopefully
(24:29):
she'll join the pod at somepoint to kind of talk about it. But
I just feel like the days ofthe hardcore gear shop are over.
We've talked about this on thepodcast, but this kind of just really
drives home the point to me. Idon't think this doesn't mean that
the outdoor industry can'tgrow and thrive, because it is growing
and thriving just in adifferent way. I mean, if you look
at the recent OIAparticipation report, again, more
(24:50):
people participating, it'sbeing led by blacks and Latinos,
so different people are goingoutside than have in the past. I
think the reality is thebroader path that's being forged
by retailers, it's focused,like you said, went on less technical
products. And even REI islikely to be the new normal. And
if you want or need that moretechnical product, you can go to
a GGG or you can buy directfrom the brand to get them. I mean,
(25:13):
honestly, we kind of applyOccam's Razor to the industry. Isn't
that sort of the simplest andmost likely explanation for what
we're seeing? I mean, I gotmultiple messages this week of like,
how can the industry hope tosurvive if Summit Hut can't make
it? I just don't think. Ithink that just doesn't acknowledge
the sort of broader trendsthat seem pretty obvious. If you
really take the step back andlook at it.
(25:34):
I don't know it's quite that simple.
It's that simple.
Of course it is. You'reabsolutely right. Colin, thank you.
Moving on.
No, just because. Okay. What Ithink you have to ask yourself the
question. First of all, I'mnot sure I totally buy that all outdoor
gear shops are going to goaway. I think there is going to be
(25:54):
sort of a molding and adifference and some folks that maybe
don't change with the timessomewhat, maybe they won't survive.
But a good gear shop that'sproviding great service to their
customers I think has a place.But let's just take what you're saying
as actually the truth, thatoutdoor gear shops are going to go
(26:16):
away as we know them. I guessthe question becomes, what will that
do to the industry? What willit do in terms of participation?
I personally think that wouldbe an awful thing for the industry.
It would be an awful thing forparticipation. I think a lot of people's
first experience with theoutdoors and getting into the outdoor
(26:36):
gear is at their local gearshop. And maybe the local gear shop
didn't carry everything, butyou went in there and there were
people that loved doing thethings that you were trying to get
into, perhaps, and wereexcited about it and could tell you
about it and could tell youabout what kind of pack you needed
and do all these things andreally shepherd you through that
process. And if that goesaway, are we just relying on ChatGPT
(27:00):
for that? I mean, is thatwhere we're, where we're going here?
I don't. Why does it have tobe one or the other? I mean, if I
went. If you went to agearhead outfitters who is not kind
of to your point, like alittle softer, sorry for the word.
Right. Why couldn't you havethat same experience? Just because
they're not selling kayaks andice axes, but they're selling, you
know, they sell some hardgoods with mostly soft goods and
shoes. I think, like, there'sa lot more. I think the younger consumers
(27:22):
especially are conditioned toshop that way and look at different
things and go to secondhandstores. And maybe like, maybe it's
like, ah, you know, I can goto a gearhead online or I can go
to ggg or maybe there is thatsort of store that is still positioned
by the national park that hasmore things. And when I'm in town
I go there, but I can stillhave the new authentic experience
is just. Is a little bitdifferent than what we experience.
(27:45):
And you're right, I amspeaking hyperbolic with some hyperbole
that, you know, it's all goingto go away. It's not all going to
go away because there arelocations where it will make sense
to do it. I just think it's a.I bristle at the, you know, the industry
can't survive if we don't haveit the way it was before. And I think
(28:05):
what we're seeing is there's aclear evolution. Maybe we don't know
where it ends up that ishappening and people are still going
outside more than they everhave before. So I just want to kind
of almost meet it on its ownterms and be like, okay, so what
does this actually mean? Whereare things being sold? Where are
people actually shopping? Andwhat does that mean for getting more
people outside or supportingthe people who are already going
outside?
Well, I was just going to sayI agree with Owen in that the shop
(28:30):
isn't dead. It's changing andwe might be in a downward ebb, but
it will flow and it will fillthe spaces left. Once we see where
the legacy, let's call it thelegacy specialty world is kind of
falling apart. E Commerce isfilling in these new brands. GGG
(28:51):
being part of that world. Andsomewhere there's going to create
these spaces. And I think toyour point, it's going to be from
people who have not beentraditionally A part of the industry
ecosystem. Building thesespaces, for example, we've lose.
We're losing Next Adventure. Imean, you can't really replace that
as a footprint in Portlandspecifically. But nearby is opening
(29:13):
up a new core outdoor shop bya couple from Venezuel, and they're
really focusing kind of on theLatino experience in outdoor. They
bring some, you know, heavy,like out wilderness, backcountry,
wilderness chops. But it's asmall concept piece and it's going
to be very much weighted totrying to be more. Inviting more
(29:33):
people in. And so that's anexample. Does it replace Next Adventure?
No, but it's absolutely theseeds for the next generation to
grow and finding that spacesin between. And maybe they couldn't
have done that necessarily ifyou still had an outside presence
right. By some of these folks.And so maybe there is some creative
destruction going on. As muchas I hate to see some of these great
(29:55):
places and spaces go, I just,I think that there's too much, too
much vitality in thisindustry. And again, what we represent,
the idea of going outside tonature is a very strong pull. So
I think it's going to bring.Bring us along with it.
But where are all the straightwhite males supposed to shop if that's
what the future is? That'swhat I'm worried about.
(30:17):
Well, Dicks and Foot Locker emerging.
Okay.
There. I feel better. Thankyou for reminding me about the Dixon
Foot Locker. Got worried for asecond there.
Yeah. But I'm certainly notwilling just to write off traditional
outdoor gear stores. I thinkthat there's a lot that can be done
both from the retailers, butalso from the brands to give make
(30:41):
sure that those stores arehealthy in the future. And so. And
we'll get to this in a littlebit. But I did start looking at what's.
What are some of the brandsand what are some of the things they
can do to help those stores.
Yeah, listen, I am notobviously, I love gear shops. I'm
of the same generation as youguys of like, that's my memory as
well. I just some sort of. Youknow, again, my reaction to this
(31:03):
is, number one, we don't. Weweren't running Summit Hut, so we
don't, you know, only theyreally understand the position they
were in and why they were hadto stay open or decide to close.
There are multiple trends atplay going on here, and I think the
landscape is changing. Isthere a world where a more traditional
(31:23):
gear shop can thrive? I'm surethere is, absolutely. And I want
that to happen. Because Iagree with you, Owen. I think there's
nothing quite like walkinginto a shop like that and just that
feeling of like, oh my God,all I want to do is go outside and
do stuff now. But I also don'tthink. I also think that that doesn't
mean it can't be experiencedin other ways. And probably the trends
are moving that way forcertain markets specific. And there's
(31:44):
the presence of online and allthe other ways that you can procure
things these days that kind ofcomplicate that. So I don't know,
just be interesting to monitorhow this plays out in the coming
years.
How's your Spanish, Colin?
Not great.
Not great?
No.
Loco por la Adventura.
Is that the name of the shopin Portland?
(32:05):
That's the name of the shop. Iwanted to give them a. I mean, I
mentioned them, but I didn'tsay their name. Loco. Loco por la
Adventura. Base CampMountaineering Center.
When does it open?
Crazy for adventure.
That's crazy for adventure.Yeah, they are. They're open now.
They're open now.
All right, so yeah, you gottago. You gotta take some pictures,
right?
(32:25):
Absolutely.
All right, so let's move on tothe next piece of this conversation
because we know there's a lotof complexity in running a retail
shop or a brand that isevident more than ever in today's
outdoor landscape, asevidenced by the conversation we
just had. But let's move fromthe retail part of it to the brand
side because our ownconsigliere attempted this week to
quantify who was out theredoing a good job on the brand front.
And this week, Owen created abrand scorecard to see was checking
(32:49):
the most boxes when it came tohow he views best practices for partnering
with retailers. So, Owen, walkus through what you created.
This actually started with thewhole Summit Hut thing, right? Because
I was thinking about theimpact of D2C and brands, all this
stuff on outdoor specialretailers. And I started to look
at how many brands have emailsignup discounts and then it became
(33:10):
this whole. Basically it blewa whole afternoon. But anyway, let's
get into what this snowballedinto. So I came up. It's a hundred
point scale. The first thingis email signup. Okay. You get 30
points if your email signup isnot a discount. All right, so if
there's no discount, that'sthat, that is 30 points. And then
(33:35):
really if, if it's. If it's 10point, 10% or under, I'm going to
give you a little bit. I'llgive you I'll give you 10 points.
If it is 15% or under, you getfive points. But if it's like 20%
or more, zero points. Okay.
Okay.
So that's, that's the discountfor if.
You start shopping on theirwebsite, you get a discount off of
your order.
Exactly. Yes.
Okay.
(33:55):
Right. The second thing was,is your main message a sale message,
like on your homepage? Thefirst thing you see is that, is that
a sale message? Now, infairness, I did this the Thursday
before Labor Day, so it iskind of a salesy period. So whatever.
But even with that though, 64%of the brands I looked at didn't
(34:16):
have one. Interesting. So itis possible to not have a sale message.
And if you didn't, you got 20points. The next thing I looked at
was the top navigation on thesite. So the persistent navigation,
if you have a persistent salessection always there at the top of
the page, you get zero pointsif you don't have one. If you avoid
that, you get 10 points. Okay,so this is all about sort of the
(34:38):
whole discount orientation ofthe site. That's the first thing.
The second thing we looked atwas to what degree are you supporting
your retailers by suggestingthat they are a place that you could
buy the brand? The main thingis on the product page, the PDP.
Right. Because if you get 30points on the product page, like
(34:59):
below the add to cart, you'resaying, and this is available in
these actual stores right nearyou. And there were actually three
of the 25 brands that didthat. So you get 30 points for that.
You get 20 points if youdidn't actually call it the brand.
But there's like a link thatsays buy it locally or find a store
near you right on the productpage just below the add to cart button.
(35:21):
So that was worth 20 points.And then if you had a dealer locator
up in the top navigation,again, so prominently up there at
the top of the page, notburied at the bottom, at the top
of every page, you get 10points for that. So all of that adds
up to 100 points. And then Ijust, I did like 25 total brands.
So who are the top brands likeand who could stand and maybe, you
know, take a little look inthe mirror and reevaluate their priorities
(35:44):
in life?
Well, so there were two brandshad the a perfect 100 point score,
although one of them has anasterisk. So Oboz, our own sponsor,
Oboz, love hiking oboes. Thatsame oboes, 100 points, perfect score.
Brooks also get 100 points.But a bit of an asterisk because
(36:04):
they do offer a discount fortheir email, but only on their apparel,
which isn't really their corestuff. So I'm like, okay, so they
get 100 points with anasterisk. But then the other folks
that were in what I call tierone, so 75 to 100, Nemo equipment,
obviously. Big friend of thepod, Rab. Another friend of the pod,
(36:24):
by the way. I didn't have themon the initial list and then they
bugged me. So I figured outtheir score.
What about us?
Nice job. Yeti is up there.And then not a friend of the pod.
No, unfortunately. And thenSolomon, which is absolutely, totally
a friend of the pod.
Massive friend of the pod Solomon.
That brand I've never heard of.
(36:46):
We love them so much. We talkabout them all the time.
The reality is we probably dojust because of the one time we.
Sure we do.
So. Right, right. They werethe, they were the tier one and then
sort of tier two, sort of the50 to 75. And this is in, in order
of, of of decreasing score. Soarc' Teryx on Big Agnes Xed Cool
(37:08):
Osprey, smartwool, Fjall Ravenand Patagonia.
And actually Patagonia, someheavy hitters in tier two.
In tier two and Patagonia waskind of right there at the 50 point
level. They used to be liketop of the like one. I was, I've
watched Patty Gunny over theyears. They now have a discount,
email sign up discount whichthey didn't used to have and they
(37:30):
dropped their retailer locatorfrom their product page within the
last 12 months. So that'sokay. Shame. Yes. But the thing that
really occurred to me thoughas I looked at most of these brands
in these top tiers is, youknow, these are, these top scoring
brands are some of thehealthiest brands that are out there
(37:50):
right now in terms of growth,et cetera. Right. And so I guess
the question you ask yourselfis are they healthy because they
do all these things or is itbecause they have healthy sales and
demand that they can afford todo these things? They don't have
to discount. They can affordto support the retailers because
(38:11):
they're healthy or vice versa.So yeah, a bit of a chicken or an
egg kind of scenario.
Honestly, that plays in alittle the conversation we were just
having coming off the SummitHut news.
Right.
It's like that's kind of. AndDana, or again whoever wrote it alludes
to it and the reasons whythey're closing of like these market
forces are chaotic if notanything else. Right. And so the
idea of like, this is also whoyou're up against and what they're
(38:31):
doing, and then the power thatthese folks have in terms of the
money they have in theirpockets to spend versus an independent
retailer. And when I say,like, you know, hey, the, the era
of the gear shop maybe beingover, it's not to say that the era
of the specialty outdoorretailer is over. It is to say, like,
I see why the special is goingwhere it's going, right? The assortment
and the inventory and thingsthat you have to have to be a true
(38:52):
traditional gear shop. It'sgonna, it gets hard, especially if
you don't have like a bignational park or something next door
for people to constantly becoming in to use that stuff for.
Obviously it would help if,you know, when somebody does go onto
whatever the site is, let'ssay Osprey is a great example. You
go on the Osprey site, nodiscount, right? For, for the, for
(39:13):
signing up for their email.And, you know, when you do all that
research and you figure outwhich of, you know, I don't know,
expedition packs are the rightones for you, and you get onto that
product display page, there'sa link right there that says find
it locally. Okay, Right,right. That is what we need if you're
going to support gear storeslong term.
All right, so do we want totalk about the third tier?
(39:36):
Well, let's skip the thirdtier and let's just go to the fourth
tier, which is the lowesttier. So this is 0 to 24 giving a
tier. Well, just because, youknow, they're kind of in the middle.
I mean, they're whatever.
All right, all right, that'sfair. Let's go to the bot bottom.
Let's do it.
Yeah. And so tier four again,from high to low, but high being
(39:56):
20 points. We've got Cotopaxi,Friend of the Pod, Helly Hansen,
obviously the new Contourbrands, Keen, Columbia, Kelty, Marmot
and Prana. So I think you cansee it's sort of the opposite of
the other side of that scalein terms of brands that are maybe
(40:18):
not doing so well. So again,are they not doing well because they're,
they're not doing thesethings, or are they doing these things
because they feel the heat?They need to, you know, cut off any
sales to, to their, to theirretail partners. They need to. I
mean, all of these folks haddiscounts of anywhere from 10 to
20% off.
So, Dave, are you worriedbummed that we didn't see this before
(40:40):
we talked to Matt Sutton at Columbia.
Well, we're gonna, we're gonnadefinitely separate church and state
on our conversation about the.Yes, yes, but look, I mean, to that
point, is it not doing well?It's also, you've got a lot of direct
first kind of mindsets here.You've got some, you know, they've.
All of these brands tend to bemuch more inward focused and so,
(41:03):
you know, maybe you'd thinkthey'd be a little more sensitive
to the needs of a retailerseeing that they run their own retail
and would know that. I alsofind it interesting that some of
the, you know, if you're doingall things right in the retail space,
yet your brand isn't growinglike you want it to, maybe it's not
your retail space, maybe it'snot even your product, maybe it's
(41:26):
your brand, maybe it's someother things that you're not taking
a look at in the same way. Sothis does kind of reveal some, I
don't know, opportunity areasto assess from.
What I would tell you is thatI think a lot of what I put out here
is not news to most retailers.If you ask the west sounds of the
(41:49):
world, which side of thisgroup are they buying from? It's
definitely the people at thetop of the, of the list. Right. Because
they're supporting them.They're supporting and they're driving
full margin sales. So it is avirtuous cycle, I think at the top
of this list. So one thing Idid want to point out as a correction
here, that actually versus theversion that went out on LinkedIn,
(42:13):
Mountain Hardware actually wasinitially in this Tier 4 group and
friend of the prod, TroySaicott reached out and corrected
me that actually they do havea link on their product page to their
dealers and so that bumpedthem up into tier three. So just
so that we're all clear that.Yes, good call. Yes.
(42:35):
I tell you what, this isinteresting about this. And again,
just back and all this stuffcan get tied back to all of our conversations
around core versus casual andthe way even the Columbia ad reaction
and there's so much vibe andemotion tied into so many opinions
on the show included Right. Inthe outdoor industry. And what I
(42:56):
did love about this, Owen, isthat I loved having a metric to go
off of.
Sure.
Right. All of that was asaying about, well, maybe why would
a gear shop stock certainthings or whatever. And it's like,
well, did anybody. It's allfeel. It's like, well, this brand
kind of does well andEverything. But it's like, hold on,
let's put some numbers to thisand show you why perhaps that something's
either a little bit morechallenging or what are the broader
(43:18):
market forces that arehappening that are leading to the
results you're getting or notgetting in your shop with these particular
brands. How does this apply toyour assortment? Because your point
about like a Wes or somebodylike them, if they're in that top
tier, you know, maybe they'renot having some of the same issues
as some of the other brandswho are a little bit heavier on brands
at the bottom tier. And it maysound like a small thing, but to
your point, like people are,we're learning this with, again with
(43:39):
talking to Lloyd at GGG andwith all the other brands that we
have a chance to talk tobecause of our podcast and you start
to understand the landscape ofoutdoor brands and outdoor adjacent
brands is much larger than youmay think. And the business that's
happening on the direct sideis much larger than you might think.
And that will trickle down tothese folks who are incredibly important
(44:00):
to our industry on the retailside. And they might not even have
any purview of like, why it'seven happening, you know. So, like
doing this is actually, it'sfun, but it's also, I think, really
important.
Yeah, it does. Lots of peopleare asking me about adding other
brands to the list. And yeah,this is definitely not meant to be
exhaustive, but moreillustrative of, hey, these are some
(44:23):
of the things that reallymatter in terms of what drive business
for a retailer or full pricebusiness for a retailer. These are
things that really matter. Andso it's pretty straightforward for
people to come up with theirown score and to say, okay, should
I be on sale or should I not?I think it would be cool to revisit
this. Maybe not during a saleseason, to be fair to all the brands.
(44:44):
Maybe during peak season, peakfall season, peak spring season and
see, see where they are, seewhere we come out. Also track these
things over time. Like I'msaying with Patagonia, for example,
actually going backwards asthey remove dealer links from their
homepages just to keep trackon where the vibes are going. Or
(45:06):
like Viori, for example. Ithought Viori would be top of the
list. Top of the list, not. Sono links to the dealers on the PDP,
but more surprisingly, a 20%discount for email signup, which
isn't. I don't think that'show they used to be, which tells
me what's going on with Vuori.
(45:26):
Is it what's going on withyour Fiori or is it again just another
one of those indicators of theinfluence that performance marketing
still has on this. And sothat's such. You get that over and
over and over. And so you'vegot this pull between the wholesale
side, the brand people andthis performance piece. And 20% is
infuriating. If I'm both in abrand or a sales perspective and
(45:48):
for I would argue for a brandlike Riori, is it even really necessary?
Right.
Are you really attracting thatmuch more first time consumer because
of the 20? No, they're therebecause they want the brand or they
felt the product in store andhow soft it is. Like, it's like be
confident in that. Right.Continue, continue to lead versus
like have to grovel.
(46:09):
So that's become so endemicjust in terms of like almost any
DTC brand. The expectationwhen you land on the site is here's
at least 15% off for signingup for email. And it does, I think
beg the question, okay, we'reacquiring that customer, but we're
acquiring them with a discountright off the bat. Is that the right
way to go?
Well, guys, that's the showfor today. No parting shot today.
(46:30):
We went along with everythingelse. And so we do want your emails.
Send them in. Retailers, sendit in. We'd love to hear what you
think about Summit Hut. Whatdo you think about the state of the
world? What do you think aboutOwens metrics and the brands that
you work with? Send yourfeedback to myrockfightmail.com the
Rock Fight's a production ofRock Fight LLC. Today's episode is
produced by producer Dave Artdirection provided by Sarah Gensert
(46:51):
for Owen Comerford. I'm ColinTrue. Thank you for listening and
here to take us out, it'sChris Da Makes with the Rock Fight
Fight song. And we'll see younext time. Rock Fighters.
Yay.
Rock fight. Rock fight. Rockfight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Welcome
to the rock bike where wespeak our truth Slay sacred cows
(47:15):
and sometimes agree todisagree. We talk about human powered
outdoor activities and bigbites about topics that we find interesting
like pop culture music, thelatest movie reviews, ideas that
aim for the hate. This iswhere we speak our truth. This is
(47:36):
where we speak our truth. Rockfight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Welcome
to the rock flight. Rockfight. Rock fight. Welcome to the
rock flight. Rock flight. Rockfight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock
fight. Welcome to the Rockfight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock
(48:00):
fight. Rock flag fight.
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