December 6, 2025 • 37 mins
From San Antonio, TX it's The Rock Fight LIVE!
Colin, Shawnté Salabert, Producer Dave and Eoin Comerford take the stage at The Running Event & Switchback 2025 for a fast, funny, high-energy conversation on the annual trade show.
On The Docket!
- The Future of TRE & Switchback: Christina Henderson and Kent Ebersole discuss where the event is heading, how outdoor fits in, and whether an awards program is coming.
- RUNHER Magazine founder and Editor In Chief joins TRF to discuss what outdoor can learn from running when it comes to being more inclusive.
- Gear Abby Live: Shawnté answers your burning questions!
- Booth Hits & Misses: Standouts include Brooks’ funhouse, Superfeet’s geodesic dome, and Rabbit’s unbooth. Low points: Clif Bar’s table and Prana’s identity crisis.
Thanks for listening! The Rock Fight is a production of Rock Fight, LLC.
Please follow and subscribe to The Rock Fight and give us a 5 star rating and a written review wherever you get your podcasts.
Want to pick a fight with The Rock Fight? Send your feedback, questions, and comments to myrockfight@gmail.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey guys, it's Colin.
Just wanted to jump in beforestarting the show to let you know
that today's episode is arecording of the Rock Fights live
show that we did at therunning event in San Antonio, Texas.
We had a blast at TRE duringthe live show and we were joined
that day by Kent Debersol andChristina Henderson as well as Runner
Magazine's Ashley Mateo.
It was a great event and I'mexcited that we get to share it with
(00:21):
you.
Come back on Monday for ourlast bit of TRE coverage where our
Texas crew of myself andproducer Dave and Shantae and Owen
will recap the entire show,including our impressions of the
Tre Retailer Awards. That'scoming up on Monday. But in the meantime,
enjoy the live show and we'llsee you next time. Rock Fighters
Fjallraven isn't here toconquer mountains, tame rivers, or
(00:44):
beat the weather. We're hereto go slowly, to tread carefully,
to cherish the visit. For us,the outdoor experience has never
been a race to victory. It'san ongoing journey to create equipment
and memories that last forgenerations to come. Our mission
is to inspire more people tomove with no nature, and we do this
by developing durable andfunctional equipment that never goes
out of fashion. What we reallywant is to make it easier for people
(01:07):
to enjoy spending time innature on nature's terms. This is
our passion, so let's use ourvast experience and competence to
help more people feel at homein nature, because when they do,
they will take greater care ofit. Get started on your Fjallraven
journey by heading tofjallraven.com today.
Hey Rock Fighters.
The air is cooling down andthe trail is beckoning and Lemz is
(01:28):
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hey retailers, did you knowLemz recently expanded their wholesale
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(01:53):
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(03:00):
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to stay warm out there. Folks.
(03:26):
Welcome to the Rock Fightwhere we speak our truths, slay sacred
cows and sometimes agree todisagree. This is an outdoor podcast
that aims for the head. I'mColin True and we are live at the
running event in San Antonio,Texas. Joining me on stage, to my
left, we have the consigliere,Owen Comerford. We also to my left,
(03:51):
have gear. Abby herself,Shantae Stanlebert. To my right,
the people's champion and cofounder of the Rock Fight, producer
Dave. Music's very loud, butit's gonna be over in a second, guys.
It's coming up.
Today we're gonna be joined byAshley Mateo, the editor in chief
of Runner magazine, as well asthe director of the running event,
(04:12):
Christina Henderson. And thepresident of the outdoor Industry
Association, Kent Ebersol, thepresident of the Outdoor Industry
Association. We also have gearAbbey answer some questions and of
course hand out some opinionson which brands had the best and
maybe the worst booths of theshow that we've seen so far. Honestly,
there's a lot of booths I'veseen, guys, so we didn't get to all
of them. But before we get tothat, I have to ask my co hosts,
(04:35):
what do we think of the showso far as first time attendees? Owen,
Shantae, what did you think ofthe running event so far?
I mean, I love seeing fellowrunners out there. I'm not just a
hiker. I was a littledisappointed at the lack of dogs
at the show though, so maybewe'd step it up tomorrow. If anyone's
got a dog they can.
Bring, just go home and get it.
Yeah, yeah. I was disappointedthat we, you know, we had hoped that
(04:59):
like at an outdoor show you'llsee people all in flannel and hiking
boots. I was really hoping forthis singlet and the short shorts.
Yeah. But I don't think we sawthat at All.
No, not once.
Right.
I saw. Oh, there's a couplebooths where there was some leg happening.
All right. Oh, the hairy leg.
As a hairy legged man myself,I was a little like, oh man, no one
(05:21):
wants to.
You missed the party lastnight though.
Oh, okay.
There were plenty of singlets.There were.
Oh, really? Okay. No, this is.It's great. Definitely get that sort
of mid teens or vibe onceagain. So this kind of scratching,
that itch. In fact, I'm Prettysure the UFOS booth, they bought
it from the Arc' Teryx boothin 2017.
(05:42):
It was for sale on ebay.
It was, yeah. So that's great.That multi level white Formica booth,
it was great.
Just add a few screens,repurpose it.
Totally.
Dave, any follow up thoughtsthat you'd like to chime in with?
You know, I think small boothsseem to be in for sure. You can definitely
see a smaller footprint. The10 by 20 is probably the star of
(06:03):
the show. Recovery. That's atrend that continues.
Someday we will be recovered.
We were recovered for sure.And my other. The ticker seems to
be the new kind of trend inbooth construction. Right. The moving
piece of architecture.
So did you notice maybe a lackof any messaging, maybe some sustainability
(06:24):
messaging that wasn't quitepresent that we see at other outdoor
events?
Well, you know, we do know theoutdoor is very performative in our
sustainability. I don't thinkyou have the same issue here with
Tre. There does seem to be apetrochemical love fest going on,
but like 80 synth would be agood soundtrack. Actually, anything
synth would be a good soundtrack.
We put the synth in synthetic.
That's right. That's right.But other than that, no.
(06:47):
All right. Well, guys, this isour second live rock fight at a switchback
event, which means it's now atradition, which also means we have
to honor that tradition bywelcoming back to the stage the director
of the running event andswitchback, Christina Henderson and
the president of the OutdoorIndustry association and Deborah
Saul. Come back up here, guys.It's like they just saw you. Up top,
(07:10):
up top. All right. SoChristina, every time you've been
on stage with us, there's beena first in Nashville. It was the
first Switchback spring. Thistime it's the first San Antonio for
Tre. Next June, it will be NewOrleans for another first. Do you
ever plan on settling down,maybe making something a little less
stressful? What do you think?
(07:31):
Yeah, I think we are trying tofind the home and trying to find
a location that works best forthe outdoor industry and the Running
industry, so, you know, can'ttell you exactly what the plans are
for the future, but you can.I'll keep you updated. Yeah, yeah.
Who is stopping you fromtelling us?
What, what, what better timethan now with all these lovely people
(07:52):
listening?
They look so eager.
Well, we're still learning,right? So we're still learning and
deciding and we'll share soon,okay? Yeah.
God, it's like she's beenmedia trained. Damn it.
I hate when that happens.
Well, she might be a littlemore media trained now because we
know you have your recentpromotion. Vp, what's up? VP of the
endurance group over here.
(08:13):
Thank you. Thank you so much.
Thank you, thank you. Thankyou for doing all you do. So you
have been promoted. And we'vealso seen the OIA has deepened the
relationship. Absolutely.Nobody told me to say the oia, you
know, double down here on therelationship. So what does this mean
for the future of TreSwitchback? What's the vibe?
(08:35):
So I'm really happy to answerthe question, but I do think it's
worth Kent explaining why youall are calling it the outdoor industry
and why he's annoyed. So Iwant to give him that opportunity.
I'm not actually sure it'sworth talking about. Nobody here
says the Birkenstock, thelims, the teva. It's oaa. It's Teva,
(08:58):
it's Birkenstock. I'm justlooking around. It's not the oia.
It's oia.
I can tell you don't live inSouthern California because we name
all of Our freeways the 405.The 5.
I'm wearing a pair of theultras. I don't. It's in our brand
guidebook. I hear it all thetime. I, a couple months ago told
(09:19):
him if he ever said the OIAagain, I was going to rain hell down
on his house. All of a sudden,we haven't talked. And so I show
the last time.
We'Ll appear on stagetogether, the oia.
Back and forth. So it's notthe oia.
Well, let's talk about the OAreal quick. So, like, looking at.
(09:42):
Who is.
Sorry, that was actually notintentional that time.
It's in your lexicon now. Yougot to get it out.
When you look at who showed upon the brand side here from the outdoors,
you know, are you happy withthe representation from looking at
the outdoor brands who are here?
Yeah, I'm super happy. This isvibrant. There's a lot going on.
(10:03):
It's fun. It's the first timewe you know, it's the second time
we've come together and sowhat's not to like? I think the question
is what happens next and next.Next question you asked her. And
we're, we're fully at worktrying to answer those questions
and figure that out. But I.You can't take step two without this
(10:26):
right here, right now, right?
Did we step on the answer?
Yeah. You did not.
Oh, my God. I just jumpedright over. Sorry, Christina.
No, it's an importantquestion. So, yeah, thank you for
the congrats. So with myelevated position, we are promoting
Jenae Salinas to be therunning event director and we will
(10:48):
be hiring a director forSwitchback. And this is to give dedicated
focus to both industries. Asyou know, they are distinct and they
continue to grow and we justwant to make sure we have focus in
both. So that's the plan.
So in terms of retailers, itfelt busy. Can you tell us if attendance
(11:08):
was up year over year? And doyou think that the switchback of
it all is bringing moreoutdoor retailers to the show?
Great question. So we areslightly ahead in terms of pre registered
retailers.
We.
Which is great. We are seeinginternational attendance as well
as outdoor specialties. So wedo have the most outdoor specialty
(11:29):
retailers in attendance thatwe've ever had at Tre.
Awesome.
Also now looking ahead, one ofthe things that in our pre show we
talked about was the fact thatthis show, it's laid out very well.
Two solid days we don'tstretch into three days. Two high
energy days bookended byeducation on the front end and an
awards show we're going to goto tomorrow night on the back end.
(11:52):
So my prediction was that forSwitchback and given the deepening,
quote unquote relationshipbetween you two, that you guys were
going to add an awardsceremony to the end of day two of
Switchback.
2026 and who will get the bestpodcast award?
That's really the questionwe're all waiting to hear.
(12:12):
I'm going to start readingyour questions.
Can you confirm or deny what does.
The running world or industrydo differently from the outdoor industry
and what can they learn from that?
That's actually a question forsomebody else.
But okay, so it's inconversation. It is not in plans
as of now. We are still tryingto get to know the outdoor industry
(12:34):
and I don't think it's quite,we're quite ready to say, hey, we're
going to honor the bestoutdoor stores because we're still
getting to know them. So I dothink in the future we hope to here's
my answer.
Another good answer.
Okay.
Are you ready for that one?
Yeah.
Okay. Lloyd, I said I wasgonna mention you. Somebody recently
(12:54):
at an event we were both atsaid, I really love Lloyd because
he says yes to everything. AndI just reflected on that, and I went,
God, I say no to everything.Like, every time someone comes to
me, I'm like, no, no, no, no,no, no. Kelly. They're all. He says
no a lot. I think part of thatanswer is what happens next here?
(13:19):
And I think. And what I meanby that is we can't say yes to everything.
So it's about prioritizingwhat matters. And I see all kinds
of different people in thisroom. I see retailers, I see brands,
I see State of Colorado here.And I see all kinds of different
people and from differentbackgrounds. And you ask that question
(13:39):
or you ask a specific questionabout, do we want an award ceremony?
And you get all kinds ofdifferent answers. So to me, your
first question is the numberof people here. That's an important
part. Is it the right numberand the right people? The second
part is Community and Vibe. Dowe have Community and Vibe? And I
(14:00):
check that big box. Yes, shecan answer the numbers, but the Community
and Vibe part. And so if anawards ceremony is critical and functional
to Community and Vibe, we gotto think about it, if we have to
do it. But we have to thinkabout it, because Community and Vibe
is really what allows you allto walk away and go, I'm coming back
(14:22):
or not. And then the thirdpart of this is, are people selling
and buying products? Andthat's a big part of this. It always
has to be a big part of this.For some, it's bigger. For others,
it's not as big, but there'ssome component of that. I think that
at some point, we startanswering those questions with, does
it help the Vibe? Does it helpthe community? I trust Christina
(14:45):
and janae and that DivComorganization because they look at
what they're doing. This isnot easy to do. All right, I'm done.
Should I just.
Sorry, one other question.
Last question. It started withLloyd. It's your fault, Lloyd.
Ken, since we have you here.You just announced that you're bringing
(15:06):
back Rendezvous. Now, this hasbeen a discussion for a decade to
bring this back. Maybe. Sowhy. So why now? And do you have
anything you want to say aboutthat show?
Sure. Why now? Because it'sjust the demand for convening at
different levels is real. It'sjust real. Rendezvous will be very
(15:29):
different than what it's beenin the past. If anybody here has
been a part of Rendezvous inthe past, it was 5, 600 people. We
don't have that. We're notgoing to launch with that many people.
We're going to launch with asmall group of people, and we're
going to try to make it verysimple and try to make sure that
the topics are topics thatwhat's affecting us for the next
(15:49):
five or ten years that we needto be talking about now. I hope that
it grows. I hope it getsbigger. I hope there's people in
this room that are part of it.I know you didn't get an invite.
I know it's very sad.
Rude.
Yeah.
Doesn't mean you can't. Okay.
Depends on the rest of the.Before the OIA and you're mad at
me. Yeah.
Nice.
And you stop saying the.
Oh, I've never again.
(16:12):
So I think it's time to bringit back because I think there's issues.
We see four or five issuesthat the industry needs to address,
and if we don't address themin five years, we're going to go,
what the heck were we thinkingfive years ago? We didn't address
it. And you can't address thatalways with 500, 600, 1000 people
in the room. Sometimes ittakes a small group of people to
be very clear about this. Oneimportant part of it is when you
(16:33):
have a smaller group ofpeople, and I'm between 75 and 100,
you have to walk away withmarching orders. Like, what are the
calls to action? What are wegoing to do? What are we going to.
So that's why we're launchingit. We expect it to be manageable.
And if we can't six monthslater look like we're taking action
for the benefit of theindustry, then we may.
(16:54):
Never do it again.
But I think we have to dothat. That's the mandate.
Well, we appreciate your time,Dave. Any last questions before we
turn these folks loose?
Just wondering if Kent has anyother rules about acronyms that we
should be aware of.
Now's your time, Kent.
Let me get out my notes here.
Well, thank you both so muchfor the show, for being here, for
being such good sports. Thankyou, Kent. And as always, thank you
(17:16):
for everything. Thanks forhaving us and thanks for doing everything
you do.
Yeah, thanks for being here.
Well, guys, given that we'reat the running event and right now
the Rock Fight has becomebasically a trail running podcast,
at this point, we wanted tohave someone from the running world
join us to talk about theoutdoor and running category. So
we're excited to welcome ournext guest, Ashley Mateo. She is
(17:37):
the founder and editor inchief of Runner magazine. Runner
is a quarterly publicationcovering women's running that recently
shipped its second issue. So,Ashley, welcome to the rock fight.
Thanks for being here.
Thanks for having me.
I brought props, and I want tosay run her or run her. Let's just
clarify.
Anybody else want to hold itwhile I talk?
Yes. There we go.
So run her or run her.
(17:59):
I say runner.
What's your magazine?
I think that women areimplicit in running, so we don't
need to stress her. It's justa part of it.
That was my theory.
I love that.
You can say run her. You cansay runner. Just subscribe.
There you go. All right. Well,unfortunately for you, you're on
stage with a, like, not arunning podcast, but an outdoor podcast.
Right. So we're hoping youcould help us with a few things.
(18:20):
Firstly, trail running is thisseemingly evergreen topic in the
industry right now. So I wantto ask you, do real runners view
trail running as running orjust something that outdoors do?
Oh, my God.
This is a wild question,because what is a real runner?
Well, you are. You publish a magazine.
Take issue with the term realrunner. Because I think anybody who
runs is a real runner, and Ithink that is true. Regardless of
(18:43):
the pace you're running, thedistance you're running, the surface
that you run on, if you run,you are a runner. Obviously, trail
running is a different experience.
Right.
It's not my favorite becauseit's so much harder. There are hills.
I prefer to avoid hills, butit's still very much running. And
I think that anyone in anypart of the running space considers
(19:05):
trail runners real runners.
I'm a trail runner. I'minsecure. So this is why I asked
that question.
You're a real runner.
All right, thank you. Allright, show's over, folks. That's
all I needed. So go ahead, Sean.
Wow. How do you follow that upas a trail runner? I'd like to know.
Okay, so we were talking abouthow the outdoor industry has kind
of a. We like to call it askinny white guy problem.
(19:27):
You're not wrong.
Exactly. So I'm wondering howthis translates in running, and are
there things the outdoorindustry can learn from the running
world? There's some thingsrunning is doing a little better.
I don't know.
I don't know. There's probablya lot of things that running is doing
a little bit better.
Ooh.
You asked the question.
Oh, the skinny white dudeproblem. I mean, I think that running,
(19:51):
to be honest, has had a verymale first narrative for a very long
time. I mean, that's whyRunner exists, because so many of
the people in charge ofrunning media are men. And we wanted
to create a space that allowedwomen to center their stories.
So subscribe today.
I don't 100% know what theanswer is for the outdoor industry,
(20:13):
but I think if you look atrunning, the. The female participation
numbers are just through theroof. Women are participating at
a higher level than men. And Ithink it's because there has been
this. This sense ofempowerment that they found in the
sport, and the sport isleaning into it. It is not as performance
focused as it was at onepoint. And now it is very community
(20:35):
based and participation based.I mean, you do it because it's a
social environment. And. Ithink that the outdoor industry could
learn a little something fromthat social element.
I'm not social. I don't know.So who are some women that are kicking
ass in the space right now,like both in the performance area
(20:56):
and then in the industry?
Oh, man. So, I mean, so many,like, if you look at trail running
specifically, obviouslyCourtney DeWalter is like the greatest
of all time.
Yeah.
And I think she has set this,I don't want to say precedent, but
just this bar for women, andwomen are meeting it and surpassing
(21:17):
it. And so people that I thinkof off the top of my head are like
Tara Dower, Rachel Entrekin.I'm really excited to see Olympian
Molly Seidel move into trailand just see what an Olympic marathoner
can do on a longer course, ona more challenging course. I think.
Who else I'm super stoked by.
You mentioned some effortsbeing led in public lands by women
(21:39):
as well, women runners.
Oh, yes.
So we, in issue two, we have astory on how female runners are really
leading the charge to protectpublic lands. There's an organization
called Runners for PublicLands, and it's just. It's really
inspiring to see the women whospend their time in these spaces,
like, taking action to protectthem and make sure that everyone
(22:02):
still has access to recreatein the outdoor spaces, whether it's
a public park, whether it's,you know, the, I don't know, national
parks, the mountains that Ilive in in Colorado, like, we want
to protect those places. Andwomen are the ones who are leading
that charge, which I think iskind of wild. But honestly, the writer
for issue two did a muchbetter job of telling that story
(22:23):
than I just did summing it up.
Subscribe is what you'resaying subscribe all comes back to
there.
It all comes back tosubscriptions, guys.
So in the outdoor industry,for the longest time, when it came
to products for womenspecifically, the mantra was pink
it and shrinkage.
Oh, man.
Right. And I was actuallysurprised. I did see a couple of
(22:45):
shoe brands on the floor thatstill had unisex lasts or sizing.
Right. So not female specific.Do you think the running industry
is making progress in terms ofwomen's specific product or. Well,
or not.
I do. I think that's. It'ssuch an interesting question because
(23:07):
I don't know if all women needwomen specific shoes or products,
but I think anytime thatbrands are investing more money into
research around women's bodiesand anatomy and biomechanics and
all those things, that is agood thing for the industry. And
whenever there are moreoptions available, that means more
women will pick up the sportand stick with the sport. And that's
(23:28):
true for any activity, notjust running. And so I think, I don't
think unisex is a bad thing.For example, like I wear a women's
size 10 and a men's eight anda half and that works for me, but
it might not work for you. Youmight need a women's specific shoe
that has a different fit thatmakes you more comfortable when you
run, when you hike, whatever.And giving women those options is
(23:49):
how you keep them in the sport.
I just want shorts that fit myass. That's all I ask.
That. That is the tough one, Ifeel like.
Are you saying are youavailable to any brands looking for.
I'm available to model for anybrands that think they have shorts
that will fit my voluptuous ass.
We call this the Shantae.
I've also a number.
We start gear testing forRunner and.
A number of emerging brandsare even. It's shorts that don't
(24:10):
ride up.
Oh, my God. The dream.
The dream. All right, well,thank you so much for joining us,
Ashley, everyone. Subscribe toRunner Magazine. Runner. That's it.
Here it is. Where do you guysgo to runner.comrunnermag.com.
To those listening to the pod,it is r U N H E R. If you want to
(24:30):
check it out.
We will link it in the shownotes. Thank you for joining us.
Thank you guys so much.
I appreciate it.
And you can keep that.
Well, we did see quite a bitof gear out there today and. Oh my
God, is that gear. Abby'smusic wow, folks, not only do you
have the outdoor industry'sleading podcast podcast crew on the
(24:53):
Stage with you today, you alsohave the Outdoor Communities most
entertaining podcast hosts,because Gear Abby is here and we
would be remiss not to ask hera question. Okay, so for those of
you who may not know, and howdare you for not knowing, we launched
a new show this past fallcalled Gear Abbey, where our own
Shantae Salibar answersquestions about outdoor people products,
places and pastimes. So wecame prepared. Shantae. Excuse me,
(25:16):
Gear Abby, thank you. Yeah.Are you ready for the question?
I'm always ready, Colin.
Okay. Dear Gear Abby, I'vebeen using an old ass Gatorade squeeze
bottle for my college days.Sounds like something that Fitzkahal
does on my runs for years now.My wife keeps threatening to throw
it away next time I'm out on a.
Business trip because she saysit's probably.
Moldy at this point. It's not.To be fair, she did also offer to
(25:38):
buy me a new one. So if I'mgoing to say goodbye, what should
I replace it with? Signed Gatorman.
Well, Gatorman, you probablycan't hear this, but I just gave
you a moment of silence foryour decrepit old Gatorade bottle.
You know, that's respect. Bythe way, they still make Gatorade
bottles in all sorts offlavors and shapes and colors. There's
metal ones, all little spigotsituations. It's a real nice time.
(26:01):
But Gatorman and anybody elseout here who's curious, I love a
good handheld. There's a lotof them on the floor here.
Who doesn't?
That's not a euphemism.
Oh, sorry.
Sorry, Colin. Yeah, it's not.But maybe it is. But I like the wood.
So I have tried the thingwhere you will strap them on with.
(26:22):
Don't say anything, Colin.
You can't tee it up like that.
With a headband or a buff. Butit just feels like I'm wearing a
splint, so I want one thatactually attaches to my hand. I also
love it when they're wearingthe little backpacks. I think that's
very exciting as a hiker tobring outdoor. It's like switchback
being here at tr. You'rebringing outdoor into the run category,
(26:43):
right?
Sure.
You can put your credit cardin there, your keys, whatever disgusting
gel you're eating that day.Yeah, I think my.
I feel like you're about tocall out a brand and maybe they're
in attendance. We don't know.
No, I won't call out any gelbrands. That's fine. But I will Say
I use a Nathan handheld speed shot.
Is anyone here from Nathan?
And then I got some. I have abeef because here's the thing. I
(27:05):
bought it because it said itwas insulated. I live in Southern
California, and you know, thevery first time I took that thing
out, there's no insulation. Ifeel like the whole insulated handheld
thing is kind of bullshit. Soif there are any brands out on the
floor at Tre that think theyhave a handheld that's actually insulated.
I'd be interested in this.
My liquids cold in SouthernCalifornia while I am radiating the
(27:28):
heat of a thousand suns onruns. Let me know.
Furnace around it. It's like,I will defeat this insulation.
Listen, I'm an island girl.I'm Cuban. That's. That's what happens.
But yeah, so I thinkultimately, Gator man, I always recommend
go to a run shop. That's whereyou're going to find somebody who
is going to help you find thebest bottle for your little paws
or maybe your large paws. Idon't want to. You know, we don't
kink Shame on this podcast.
(27:49):
No king shaming on gear, Abby.
But yeah, I think that's.That's what I'd say to Gatorman.
And you know what, dude, ifyou want to keep that Gatorade bottle,
you could just clean it. Youcan use a little bit of bleach. You
can use white vinegar andwater and just swirl it around and
like, the sucky part is where.That's the technical term.
Oh, my God.
Sucky part is where. Don't sayanything. Owen's gonna leave where
all the mold lives. Okay. But,dude, maybe Gatorade, if you want
(28:13):
to keep that, like Gatorman,that sweet, sweet. Those sweet, sweet
bpas coming back into yourbody, you could keep your old.
Bottle, but yeah, there you go.
That's all I got for you.
All right.
And we did have one on site question.
Oh, did we?
Came in from a Lloyd Vogel.
Oh, Lloyd.
Lloyd Moogle.
I think he's in attendance.Hi, Lloyd. There he is.
Wow. I can't wait to hear whatLloyd definitely asked.
Lloyd wants to know if youcould only run one surface for the
(28:36):
rest of your life, and you'vealready kind of revealed maybe what
your answer is.
Going to be today.
Would you pick rotor trail,and would the shoe have to have dyneema?
Oh, well, if I was runningwith Lloyd, it would have to have
dyneema, but no, I think I'dpick trail for the rest of my life.
Not just because I likenature. But also because I want it
to look purposeful when Ifall. So that's why trail's better,
(28:56):
in my opinion.
Right on. Well, thank you,Gear Abby, for putting on your Gear
Abbey hat.
No problem. Anything?
Answering some questions.Listen to the Gear Abbey podcast.
Everybody out there, if youdon't listen to it already, you're
missing out.
It's stickers. I got stickerswith you.
There's stickers.
All right.
And lastly for today, if youwere at our show at Switchback Spring,
we know why you're here. Youwant to know which booths we liked
(29:17):
and which booths maybe missed the.
Mark a little bit.
So let's turn things over tothe rock Fights brand and creative
expert. You know, he's yourfavorite producer. Dave. Dave. Are
you ready to reveal your dayone findings?
Come on.
You know, this was a groupeffort. Colin and I don't think we
said anything. I don't know ifthey missed the mark. Maybe they
were hitting a different markthat we weren't aware of. Right.
(29:39):
Might be more appropriate. Butlook, some of the standouts in day
one, and I hate to lead withthe biggest booth on the floor, and
I'm looking at you, Brooks, but.
If you go from the moon, but.
If you go behind the kid, youknow, part, you know, big coliseum
that they have there, there'sa fun house. Right. And back in the
(30:00):
Freedom Flex funhouse. Funhouse. And it is a, I think, one
of the best expressions of aproduct concept brought into a booth
that I've seen in a long time.So it's the flex, it's the mirrors,
it's curved metal shelves,it's the floor graphics. It really
brings to life this idea of adimensional shoe that moves in shapes.
And so that just is, like,really well done. It's really.
(30:21):
How much are they paying youto say that? They clearly didn't
blow their entire budget onthe booth.
I think you got some freeshoes for free. They give away shoes,
right?
I hear they give away shoes.
No, I think they reallycornered the market on the parkour
shoe, though.
Yeah, they did one and onlyunderserved part of the industry.
Yeah. The other one, you gottago with Superfeet in their geodesic
(30:42):
dome. It's mirrored. It's likea tour of a past tense future. It's
fantastic. I think you saidpre apocalyptic.
Pre apocalyptic, yeah.
That's great. I'm a sucker forthe classic. So I am going to call
out North Face. They do abooth. Well, simulated ground kind
of terrain. Just nice productdisplay. Arc' teryx. Does the same
(31:03):
thing. I'm just wondering whenthey're going to have the Riverwalk
fireworks display. I thinkthat'll go over really well.
Did you hear something latertonight? Actually, there are Antos
on the other side of thebuilding because they know what's
going on at the show.
Okay. From kind of the smallerbrands. There's Revive and Revel.
Or Revel. Excuse me, do itagain. Revive and Revel. They took
(31:24):
a 10 by 10 and turned it intokind of like Wayne's World's room
with album covers and some,you know, like a.
Like a teenage boy's band.
That was great. It was justwell done in terms.
Of you related is what you'resaying, looking at that.
Well, it was a little almostfamous. Sure, right. But no, I just
think it's good thought interms of what they're doing. So I
(31:45):
love seeing that. Next on ourlist is always looking for kind of
the sustainability position orthe nature based booths. And like
I kind of, you know, comment.It's a little different here because
we have, you know, twoindustries coming together. But you
know, Teva Recycling, thatwooden structure, you're always going
to get a call out for thatKeen, you know, that's their brand.
(32:07):
So they really brought it. Ithink their booth kind of embodies
this idea of a sustainablefootprint. They are growing a sprinter
van in the middle of thebooth, which I think is pretty cool.
You put some petroleum in the ground.
It just kind of comes up.Rabbit has an open floor plan, which
is also a nice way to do it.Where you.
The unbooth.
It's an unbooth, right? Kindof like Patagonia. They're kind of
(32:29):
like an unbooth.
Are they here?
Okay, they are.
They're right over there.
Oh, okay.
There's a space and then shoutout to mount to coast. They're using
the kind of the cardboard wallstructures. All free form. Again,
really, really smart use of it.
They sort of assembled anaggregate of different booth types.
I feel like they had therunning the finish line.
(32:50):
They did, you're right.
Whatever.
No, I think that's spot on.The next segment is brought to you
by the Mannequin DefenseLeague. This is a group that's out
there to make sure that brandsare using mannequins in a proper
way. And I'm gonna say Sauconyand Anta both have nice little displays
of mannequins. They're active,they're running. They look like right
(33:12):
form.
Mannequins don't like to be static.
They do not. Which, you know,New balance. The product looks nice,
but they're kind of like anormcore squad you got there. So
I think they're just standing.I think they prefer to be moving.
What y' all didn't see wasevery time Dave passed a booth with
mannequins, we lost him. Hewas standing there, just this little
small smile on his face,taking notes into his phone.
Only the good ones.
(33:32):
We're all pretty convinced hehas a bad one of mannequins in his
face.
We cry for sure. ACG had aterrarium going on, so it's always
nice to see mannequins intheir natural trail environment.
Who else did we see?
I know who we saw. We saw an animal.
We did Cotopaxi brought thedog Akin, which is also really cool.
And shout out to darn tough.They always have the sheep. Akin.
(33:55):
Right. Which is really cool tobring. But Cotopaxi.
Yeah.
Cotopaxi comeback player ofthe year from the Switchback spring
show, where we gave them some grief.
So.
Yeah.
Right, right.
It was a better use of space.They had it cozy, nice and warm.
We think you can do better.
We do.
Keep upping the game, guys.See you in New Orleans.
(34:16):
Which.
Which.
Which does lead us to what wecall the sad trombones, the underperformers.
This is why you've stayedaround users. You are still here.
I think, you know, this isjust one person's opinion. Colin's.
This is Colin's.
It's all Colin. Yes.
We weren't involved in this.
Not at all.
I'm going to say we saw CliffBar and it was really more of a table.
(34:37):
We did. They were here.
They were. It was. You know what?
It's just an assortment ofshot blocks just laid out on the
floor. Essentially.
It was just, you know what, Cliff?
Like, they have Kroger money.They don't need to be like, you know,
like, whatever, dude. Yeah,here's are some bars.
You know, just like when yourClif bar gets all soggy, that's kind
of just what they were doing.Ultimate direction. I didn't feel
(34:58):
very ultimate, and it didn'tfeel like in the right direction.
I think again, you got to justwork a little bit more, get that
concept out, which I'm alsogoing to call out Zero, the minimalist
brand. They stuffed a lot ofcontent into 10 by 10. And if you're
a minimal brand, that does notnot give me minimal vibes. So I think
we got to think about that.And then lastly, and probably most
(35:21):
sadly, here is Prana Right.Can somebody help me here? But is
Prana okay?
Are they okay?
Right?
Blink twice if you need help, please.
Prana, reach out.
They just brought a table. Ithink we can do more. I think they
forget they're owned byColumbia sometimes. Like, you've
got some money back there.Let's bring it.
I don't know. I think Columbiaalready spent all that money on their
advertising campaigns.
There's like the over. You geta rebrand, you get a re. Not you.
(35:43):
You do not get a rebrand.
Right?
Yeah, look, it was that sorrelad that was. That was.
Yeah, they spent all theproducts, all their money.
Exactly.
I think, though, it just goesback to, like, it doesn't matter
how big your booth is, howmuch budget you have to do this storytelling
is a conceptual thing in a 3Dspace. So can you bring your product
to life? Can you bring whatyour product or your brand values
(36:05):
to life? And like I said, it'snot about two stories. I mean, UFOS
has shown that, but you canreally be clever if you put some
thought to it.
Well done, Dave.
All right.
Did we offend anyone, do youthink? Was it too bad?
I think we did.
All right. Missionaccomplished. Listen, guys, that's
the show for today. Thank youall so much for being here. Thank
(36:25):
you for listening to the rockFight and showing up to support the
show. Please tip your servers.All right.
Over here. All right.
That guy right there, There heis. Yeah, he's waiting on him.
That's it.
We'll be here tomorrow. Pleasestop by and see us if you see us
running around. Listen to thisshow. We'll be up on Friday and then
we'll do our recap show forthe entire event, which will be out
next Monday. And like always,here to take us out is Krista Manx
(36:49):
with the rock fight fightsong. And we'll see you next time.
Rock fighters.
Rock fight. Rock fight. Rockfight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock
fight. Welcome to the rockfight where we speak our truth, slay
sacred cows and sometimesagree to disagree. We talk about
(37:10):
human powered outdoor activactivities and big bites about topics
that we find interesting likepop culture music, the latest movie
reviews, ideas that aim forthe head. This is where we speak
our truth. This is where wespeak our truth. Rock flight. Rock
flight. Rock flight. Welcometo the Rock flight. Rock flight.
(37:35):
Rock flight. Welcome to theRock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.
Rock flight. Rock fight. Rockfight. Fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.
Hey guys, it's Colin.
Just wanted to jump in beforestarting the show to let you know
that today's episode is arecording of the Rock Fights live
show that we did at therunning event in San Antonio, Texas.
We had a blast at TRE duringthe live show and we were joined
that day by Kent Debersol andChristina Henderson as well as Runner
Magazine's Ashley Mateo.
It was a great event and I'mexcited that we get to share it with
(00:21):
you.
Come back on Monday for ourlast bit of TRE coverage where our
Texas crew of myself andproducer Dave and Shantae and Owen
will recap the entire show,including our impressions of the
Tre Retailer Awards. That'scoming up on Monday. But in the meantime,
enjoy the live show and we'llsee you next time. Rock Fighters
Fjallraven isn't here toconquer mountains, tame rivers, or
(00:44):
beat the weather. We're hereto go slowly, to tread carefully,
to cherish the visit. For us,the outdoor experience has never
been a race to victory. It'san ongoing journey to create equipment
and memories that last forgenerations to come. Our mission
is to inspire more people tomove with no nature, and we do this
by developing durable andfunctional equipment that never goes
out of fashion. What we reallywant is to make it easier for people
(01:07):
to enjoy spending time innature on nature's terms. This is
our passion, so let's use ourvast experience and competence to
help more people feel at homein nature, because when they do,
they will take greater care ofit. Get started on your Fjallraven
journey by heading tofjallraven.com today.
Hey Rock Fighters.
The air is cooling down andthe trail is beckoning and Lemz is
(01:28):
ready to move with you. Lemzhas new shoes like the the Trailblazer
Mid, the mighty TrailThrasher, and the insulated Breck
Boot. Get your Lem's boots toget ready for the season ahead. And
hey retailers, did you knowLemz recently expanded their wholesale
sales team? So do you want tomeet with your new local rep? Well,
if you do, send an email toColo. That's c o l o emsshoes.com
(01:53):
just make sure you tell themthat the rock fight sent you lems,
where less equals more.
Roy Robbins presents the storyof the Shacket, the sturdy overshirt
of adventure. It begins in19th century France. Indigo was cheap
and stains were tough andworkers wore a boxy blue overshirt
for utility, which turned outto be pretty comfortable. The look
(02:17):
caught on by the 1970s postwar overstock had turned overshirts
into a new staple with a newname, the Shacket. Rugged, versatile
and forever comfortable. Nowleave it to Royal Robins to perfect
the Shacket. There's a vista,stretchy, breathable and fleece line
(02:40):
for fireside coziness. Thecloud rest a hemp mid weight that's
a base camp essential. Andlet's not forget the LCAP organic
cotton Sherpa line. Canvastough with a soft side. You too can
climb to new heights ofwarmth, durability and easygoing
(03:00):
comfort with Royal Robinshackets. Contact your rep today
for a perfect addition to yourshop. And Royal Robins remind you
to stay warm out there. Folks.
(03:26):
Welcome to the Rock Fightwhere we speak our truths, slay sacred
cows and sometimes agree todisagree. This is an outdoor podcast
that aims for the head. I'mColin True and we are live at the
running event in San Antonio,Texas. Joining me on stage, to my
left, we have the consigliere,Owen Comerford. We also to my left,
(03:51):
have gear. Abby herself,Shantae Stanlebert. To my right,
the people's champion and cofounder of the Rock Fight, producer
Dave. Music's very loud, butit's gonna be over in a second, guys.
It's coming up.
Today we're gonna be joined byAshley Mateo, the editor in chief
of Runner magazine, as well asthe director of the running event,
(04:12):
Christina Henderson. And thepresident of the outdoor Industry
Association, Kent Ebersol, thepresident of the Outdoor Industry
Association. We also have gearAbbey answer some questions and of
course hand out some opinionson which brands had the best and
maybe the worst booths of theshow that we've seen so far. Honestly,
there's a lot of booths I'veseen, guys, so we didn't get to all
of them. But before we get tothat, I have to ask my co hosts,
(04:35):
what do we think of the showso far as first time attendees? Owen,
Shantae, what did you think ofthe running event so far?
I mean, I love seeing fellowrunners out there. I'm not just a
hiker. I was a littledisappointed at the lack of dogs
at the show though, so maybewe'd step it up tomorrow. If anyone's
got a dog they can.
Bring, just go home and get it.
Yeah, yeah. I was disappointedthat we, you know, we had hoped that
(04:59):
like at an outdoor show you'llsee people all in flannel and hiking
boots. I was really hoping forthis singlet and the short shorts.
Yeah. But I don't think we sawthat at All.
No, not once.
Right.
I saw. Oh, there's a couplebooths where there was some leg happening.
All right. Oh, the hairy leg.
As a hairy legged man myself,I was a little like, oh man, no one
(05:21):
wants to.
You missed the party lastnight though.
Oh, okay.
There were plenty of singlets.There were.
Oh, really? Okay. No, this is.It's great. Definitely get that sort
of mid teens or vibe onceagain. So this kind of scratching,
that itch. In fact, I'm Prettysure the UFOS booth, they bought
it from the Arc' Teryx boothin 2017.
(05:42):
It was for sale on ebay.
It was, yeah. So that's great.That multi level white Formica booth,
it was great.
Just add a few screens,repurpose it.
Totally.
Dave, any follow up thoughtsthat you'd like to chime in with?
You know, I think small boothsseem to be in for sure. You can definitely
see a smaller footprint. The10 by 20 is probably the star of
(06:03):
the show. Recovery. That's atrend that continues.
Someday we will be recovered.
We were recovered for sure.And my other. The ticker seems to
be the new kind of trend inbooth construction. Right. The moving
piece of architecture.
So did you notice maybe a lackof any messaging, maybe some sustainability
(06:24):
messaging that wasn't quitepresent that we see at other outdoor
events?
Well, you know, we do know theoutdoor is very performative in our
sustainability. I don't thinkyou have the same issue here with
Tre. There does seem to be apetrochemical love fest going on,
but like 80 synth would be agood soundtrack. Actually, anything
synth would be a good soundtrack.
We put the synth in synthetic.
That's right. That's right.But other than that, no.
(06:47):
All right. Well, guys, this isour second live rock fight at a switchback
event, which means it's now atradition, which also means we have
to honor that tradition bywelcoming back to the stage the director
of the running event andswitchback, Christina Henderson and
the president of the OutdoorIndustry association and Deborah
Saul. Come back up here, guys.It's like they just saw you. Up top,
(07:10):
up top. All right. SoChristina, every time you've been
on stage with us, there's beena first in Nashville. It was the
first Switchback spring. Thistime it's the first San Antonio for
Tre. Next June, it will be NewOrleans for another first. Do you
ever plan on settling down,maybe making something a little less
stressful? What do you think?
(07:31):
Yeah, I think we are trying tofind the home and trying to find
a location that works best forthe outdoor industry and the Running
industry, so, you know, can'ttell you exactly what the plans are
for the future, but you can.I'll keep you updated. Yeah, yeah.
Who is stopping you fromtelling us?
What, what, what better timethan now with all these lovely people
(07:52):
listening?
They look so eager.
Well, we're still learning,right? So we're still learning and
deciding and we'll share soon,okay? Yeah.
God, it's like she's beenmedia trained. Damn it.
I hate when that happens.
Well, she might be a littlemore media trained now because we
know you have your recentpromotion. Vp, what's up? VP of the
endurance group over here.
(08:13):
Thank you. Thank you so much.
Thank you, thank you. Thankyou for doing all you do. So you
have been promoted. And we'vealso seen the OIA has deepened the
relationship. Absolutely.Nobody told me to say the oia, you
know, double down here on therelationship. So what does this mean
for the future of TreSwitchback? What's the vibe?
(08:35):
So I'm really happy to answerthe question, but I do think it's
worth Kent explaining why youall are calling it the outdoor industry
and why he's annoyed. So Iwant to give him that opportunity.
I'm not actually sure it'sworth talking about. Nobody here
says the Birkenstock, thelims, the teva. It's oaa. It's Teva,
(08:58):
it's Birkenstock. I'm justlooking around. It's not the oia.
It's oia.
I can tell you don't live inSouthern California because we name
all of Our freeways the 405.The 5.
I'm wearing a pair of theultras. I don't. It's in our brand
guidebook. I hear it all thetime. I, a couple months ago told
(09:19):
him if he ever said the OIAagain, I was going to rain hell down
on his house. All of a sudden,we haven't talked. And so I show
the last time.
We'Ll appear on stagetogether, the oia.
Back and forth. So it's notthe oia.
Well, let's talk about the OAreal quick. So, like, looking at.
(09:42):
Who is.
Sorry, that was actually notintentional that time.
It's in your lexicon now. Yougot to get it out.
When you look at who showed upon the brand side here from the outdoors,
you know, are you happy withthe representation from looking at
the outdoor brands who are here?
Yeah, I'm super happy. This isvibrant. There's a lot going on.
(10:03):
It's fun. It's the first timewe you know, it's the second time
we've come together and sowhat's not to like? I think the question
is what happens next and next.Next question you asked her. And
we're, we're fully at worktrying to answer those questions
and figure that out. But I.You can't take step two without this
(10:26):
right here, right now, right?
Did we step on the answer?
Yeah. You did not.
Oh, my God. I just jumpedright over. Sorry, Christina.
No, it's an importantquestion. So, yeah, thank you for
the congrats. So with myelevated position, we are promoting
Jenae Salinas to be therunning event director and we will
(10:48):
be hiring a director forSwitchback. And this is to give dedicated
focus to both industries. Asyou know, they are distinct and they
continue to grow and we justwant to make sure we have focus in
both. So that's the plan.
So in terms of retailers, itfelt busy. Can you tell us if attendance
(11:08):
was up year over year? And doyou think that the switchback of
it all is bringing moreoutdoor retailers to the show?
Great question. So we areslightly ahead in terms of pre registered
retailers.
We.
Which is great. We are seeinginternational attendance as well
as outdoor specialties. So wedo have the most outdoor specialty
(11:29):
retailers in attendance thatwe've ever had at Tre.
Awesome.
Also now looking ahead, one ofthe things that in our pre show we
talked about was the fact thatthis show, it's laid out very well.
Two solid days we don'tstretch into three days. Two high
energy days bookended byeducation on the front end and an
awards show we're going to goto tomorrow night on the back end.
(11:52):
So my prediction was that forSwitchback and given the deepening,
quote unquote relationshipbetween you two, that you guys were
going to add an awardsceremony to the end of day two of
Switchback.
2026 and who will get the bestpodcast award?
That's really the questionwe're all waiting to hear.
(12:12):
I'm going to start readingyour questions.
Can you confirm or deny what does.
The running world or industrydo differently from the outdoor industry
and what can they learn from that?
That's actually a question forsomebody else.
But okay, so it's inconversation. It is not in plans
as of now. We are still tryingto get to know the outdoor industry
(12:34):
and I don't think it's quite,we're quite ready to say, hey, we're
going to honor the bestoutdoor stores because we're still
getting to know them. So I dothink in the future we hope to here's
my answer.
Another good answer.
Okay.
Are you ready for that one?
Yeah.
Okay. Lloyd, I said I wasgonna mention you. Somebody recently
(12:54):
at an event we were both atsaid, I really love Lloyd because
he says yes to everything. AndI just reflected on that, and I went,
God, I say no to everything.Like, every time someone comes to
me, I'm like, no, no, no, no,no, no. Kelly. They're all. He says
no a lot. I think part of thatanswer is what happens next here?
(13:19):
And I think. And what I meanby that is we can't say yes to everything.
So it's about prioritizingwhat matters. And I see all kinds
of different people in thisroom. I see retailers, I see brands,
I see State of Colorado here.And I see all kinds of different
people and from differentbackgrounds. And you ask that question
(13:39):
or you ask a specific questionabout, do we want an award ceremony?
And you get all kinds ofdifferent answers. So to me, your
first question is the numberof people here. That's an important
part. Is it the right numberand the right people? The second
part is Community and Vibe. Dowe have Community and Vibe? And I
(14:00):
check that big box. Yes, shecan answer the numbers, but the Community
and Vibe part. And so if anawards ceremony is critical and functional
to Community and Vibe, we gotto think about it, if we have to
do it. But we have to thinkabout it, because Community and Vibe
is really what allows you allto walk away and go, I'm coming back
(14:22):
or not. And then the thirdpart of this is, are people selling
and buying products? Andthat's a big part of this. It always
has to be a big part of this.For some, it's bigger. For others,
it's not as big, but there'ssome component of that. I think that
at some point, we startanswering those questions with, does
it help the Vibe? Does it helpthe community? I trust Christina
(14:45):
and janae and that DivComorganization because they look at
what they're doing. This isnot easy to do. All right, I'm done.
Should I just.
Sorry, one other question.
Last question. It started withLloyd. It's your fault, Lloyd.
Ken, since we have you here.You just announced that you're bringing
(15:06):
back Rendezvous. Now, this hasbeen a discussion for a decade to
bring this back. Maybe. Sowhy. So why now? And do you have
anything you want to say aboutthat show?
Sure. Why now? Because it'sjust the demand for convening at
different levels is real. It'sjust real. Rendezvous will be very
(15:29):
different than what it's beenin the past. If anybody here has
been a part of Rendezvous inthe past, it was 5, 600 people. We
don't have that. We're notgoing to launch with that many people.
We're going to launch with asmall group of people, and we're
going to try to make it verysimple and try to make sure that
the topics are topics thatwhat's affecting us for the next
(15:49):
five or ten years that we needto be talking about now. I hope that
it grows. I hope it getsbigger. I hope there's people in
this room that are part of it.I know you didn't get an invite.
I know it's very sad.
Rude.
Yeah.
Doesn't mean you can't. Okay.
Depends on the rest of the.Before the OIA and you're mad at
me. Yeah.
Nice.
And you stop saying the.
Oh, I've never again.
(16:12):
So I think it's time to bringit back because I think there's issues.
We see four or five issuesthat the industry needs to address,
and if we don't address themin five years, we're going to go,
what the heck were we thinkingfive years ago? We didn't address
it. And you can't address thatalways with 500, 600, 1000 people
in the room. Sometimes ittakes a small group of people to
be very clear about this. Oneimportant part of it is when you
(16:33):
have a smaller group ofpeople, and I'm between 75 and 100,
you have to walk away withmarching orders. Like, what are the
calls to action? What are wegoing to do? What are we going to.
So that's why we're launchingit. We expect it to be manageable.
And if we can't six monthslater look like we're taking action
for the benefit of theindustry, then we may.
(16:54):
Never do it again.
But I think we have to dothat. That's the mandate.
Well, we appreciate your time,Dave. Any last questions before we
turn these folks loose?
Just wondering if Kent has anyother rules about acronyms that we
should be aware of.
Now's your time, Kent.
Let me get out my notes here.
Well, thank you both so muchfor the show, for being here, for
being such good sports. Thankyou, Kent. And as always, thank you
(17:16):
for everything. Thanks forhaving us and thanks for doing everything
you do.
Yeah, thanks for being here.
Well, guys, given that we'reat the running event and right now
the Rock Fight has becomebasically a trail running podcast,
at this point, we wanted tohave someone from the running world
join us to talk about theoutdoor and running category. So
we're excited to welcome ournext guest, Ashley Mateo. She is
(17:37):
the founder and editor inchief of Runner magazine. Runner
is a quarterly publicationcovering women's running that recently
shipped its second issue. So,Ashley, welcome to the rock fight.
Thanks for being here.
Thanks for having me.
I brought props, and I want tosay run her or run her. Let's just
clarify.
Anybody else want to hold itwhile I talk?
Yes. There we go.
So run her or run her.
(17:59):
I say runner.
What's your magazine?
I think that women areimplicit in running, so we don't
need to stress her. It's justa part of it.
That was my theory.
I love that.
You can say run her. You cansay runner. Just subscribe.
There you go. All right. Well,unfortunately for you, you're on
stage with a, like, not arunning podcast, but an outdoor podcast.
Right. So we're hoping youcould help us with a few things.
(18:20):
Firstly, trail running is thisseemingly evergreen topic in the
industry right now. So I wantto ask you, do real runners view
trail running as running orjust something that outdoors do?
Oh, my God.
This is a wild question,because what is a real runner?
Well, you are. You publish a magazine.
Take issue with the term realrunner. Because I think anybody who
runs is a real runner, and Ithink that is true. Regardless of
(18:43):
the pace you're running, thedistance you're running, the surface
that you run on, if you run,you are a runner. Obviously, trail
running is a different experience.
Right.
It's not my favorite becauseit's so much harder. There are hills.
I prefer to avoid hills, butit's still very much running. And
I think that anyone in anypart of the running space considers
(19:05):
trail runners real runners.
I'm a trail runner. I'minsecure. So this is why I asked
that question.
You're a real runner.
All right, thank you. Allright, show's over, folks. That's
all I needed. So go ahead, Sean.
Wow. How do you follow that upas a trail runner? I'd like to know.
Okay, so we were talking abouthow the outdoor industry has kind
of a. We like to call it askinny white guy problem.
(19:27):
You're not wrong.
Exactly. So I'm wondering howthis translates in running, and are
there things the outdoorindustry can learn from the running
world? There's some thingsrunning is doing a little better.
I don't know.
I don't know. There's probablya lot of things that running is doing
a little bit better.
Ooh.
You asked the question.
Oh, the skinny white dudeproblem. I mean, I think that running,
(19:51):
to be honest, has had a verymale first narrative for a very long
time. I mean, that's whyRunner exists, because so many of
the people in charge ofrunning media are men. And we wanted
to create a space that allowedwomen to center their stories.
So subscribe today.
I don't 100% know what theanswer is for the outdoor industry,
(20:13):
but I think if you look atrunning, the. The female participation
numbers are just through theroof. Women are participating at
a higher level than men. And Ithink it's because there has been
this. This sense ofempowerment that they found in the
sport, and the sport isleaning into it. It is not as performance
focused as it was at onepoint. And now it is very community
(20:35):
based and participation based.I mean, you do it because it's a
social environment. And. Ithink that the outdoor industry could
learn a little something fromthat social element.
I'm not social. I don't know.So who are some women that are kicking
ass in the space right now,like both in the performance area
(20:56):
and then in the industry?
Oh, man. So, I mean, so many,like, if you look at trail running
specifically, obviouslyCourtney DeWalter is like the greatest
of all time.
Yeah.
And I think she has set this,I don't want to say precedent, but
just this bar for women, andwomen are meeting it and surpassing
(21:17):
it. And so people that I thinkof off the top of my head are like
Tara Dower, Rachel Entrekin.I'm really excited to see Olympian
Molly Seidel move into trailand just see what an Olympic marathoner
can do on a longer course, ona more challenging course. I think.
Who else I'm super stoked by.
You mentioned some effortsbeing led in public lands by women
(21:39):
as well, women runners.
Oh, yes.
So we, in issue two, we have astory on how female runners are really
leading the charge to protectpublic lands. There's an organization
called Runners for PublicLands, and it's just. It's really
inspiring to see the women whospend their time in these spaces,
like, taking action to protectthem and make sure that everyone
(22:02):
still has access to recreatein the outdoor spaces, whether it's
a public park, whether it's,you know, the, I don't know, national
parks, the mountains that Ilive in in Colorado, like, we want
to protect those places. Andwomen are the ones who are leading
that charge, which I think iskind of wild. But honestly, the writer
for issue two did a muchbetter job of telling that story
(22:23):
than I just did summing it up.
Subscribe is what you'resaying subscribe all comes back to
there.
It all comes back tosubscriptions, guys.
So in the outdoor industry,for the longest time, when it came
to products for womenspecifically, the mantra was pink
it and shrinkage.
Oh, man.
Right. And I was actuallysurprised. I did see a couple of
(22:45):
shoe brands on the floor thatstill had unisex lasts or sizing.
Right. So not female specific.Do you think the running industry
is making progress in terms ofwomen's specific product or. Well,
or not.
I do. I think that's. It'ssuch an interesting question because
(23:07):
I don't know if all women needwomen specific shoes or products,
but I think anytime thatbrands are investing more money into
research around women's bodiesand anatomy and biomechanics and
all those things, that is agood thing for the industry. And
whenever there are moreoptions available, that means more
women will pick up the sportand stick with the sport. And that's
(23:28):
true for any activity, notjust running. And so I think, I don't
think unisex is a bad thing.For example, like I wear a women's
size 10 and a men's eight anda half and that works for me, but
it might not work for you. Youmight need a women's specific shoe
that has a different fit thatmakes you more comfortable when you
run, when you hike, whatever.And giving women those options is
(23:49):
how you keep them in the sport.
I just want shorts that fit myass. That's all I ask.
That. That is the tough one, Ifeel like.
Are you saying are youavailable to any brands looking for.
I'm available to model for anybrands that think they have shorts
that will fit my voluptuous ass.
We call this the Shantae.
I've also a number.
We start gear testing forRunner and.
A number of emerging brandsare even. It's shorts that don't
(24:10):
ride up.
Oh, my God. The dream.
The dream. All right, well,thank you so much for joining us,
Ashley, everyone. Subscribe toRunner Magazine. Runner. That's it.
Here it is. Where do you guysgo to runner.comrunnermag.com.
To those listening to the pod,it is r U N H E R. If you want to
(24:30):
check it out.
We will link it in the shownotes. Thank you for joining us.
Thank you guys so much.
I appreciate it.
And you can keep that.
Well, we did see quite a bitof gear out there today and. Oh my
God, is that gear. Abby'smusic wow, folks, not only do you
have the outdoor industry'sleading podcast podcast crew on the
(24:53):
Stage with you today, you alsohave the Outdoor Communities most
entertaining podcast hosts,because Gear Abby is here and we
would be remiss not to ask hera question. Okay, so for those of
you who may not know, and howdare you for not knowing, we launched
a new show this past fallcalled Gear Abbey, where our own
Shantae Salibar answersquestions about outdoor people products,
places and pastimes. So wecame prepared. Shantae. Excuse me,
(25:16):
Gear Abby, thank you. Yeah.Are you ready for the question?
I'm always ready, Colin.
Okay. Dear Gear Abby, I'vebeen using an old ass Gatorade squeeze
bottle for my college days.Sounds like something that Fitzkahal
does on my runs for years now.My wife keeps threatening to throw
it away next time I'm out on a.
Business trip because she saysit's probably.
Moldy at this point. It's not.To be fair, she did also offer to
(25:38):
buy me a new one. So if I'mgoing to say goodbye, what should
I replace it with? Signed Gatorman.
Well, Gatorman, you probablycan't hear this, but I just gave
you a moment of silence foryour decrepit old Gatorade bottle.
You know, that's respect. Bythe way, they still make Gatorade
bottles in all sorts offlavors and shapes and colors. There's
metal ones, all little spigotsituations. It's a real nice time.
(26:01):
But Gatorman and anybody elseout here who's curious, I love a
good handheld. There's a lotof them on the floor here.
Who doesn't?
That's not a euphemism.
Oh, sorry.
Sorry, Colin. Yeah, it's not.But maybe it is. But I like the wood.
So I have tried the thingwhere you will strap them on with.
(26:22):
Don't say anything, Colin.
You can't tee it up like that.
With a headband or a buff. Butit just feels like I'm wearing a
splint, so I want one thatactually attaches to my hand. I also
love it when they're wearingthe little backpacks. I think that's
very exciting as a hiker tobring outdoor. It's like switchback
being here at tr. You'rebringing outdoor into the run category,
(26:43):
right?
Sure.
You can put your credit cardin there, your keys, whatever disgusting
gel you're eating that day.Yeah, I think my.
I feel like you're about tocall out a brand and maybe they're
in attendance. We don't know.
No, I won't call out any gelbrands. That's fine. But I will Say
I use a Nathan handheld speed shot.
Is anyone here from Nathan?
And then I got some. I have abeef because here's the thing. I
(27:05):
bought it because it said itwas insulated. I live in Southern
California, and you know, thevery first time I took that thing
out, there's no insulation. Ifeel like the whole insulated handheld
thing is kind of bullshit. Soif there are any brands out on the
floor at Tre that think theyhave a handheld that's actually insulated.
I'd be interested in this.
My liquids cold in SouthernCalifornia while I am radiating the
(27:28):
heat of a thousand suns onruns. Let me know.
Furnace around it. It's like,I will defeat this insulation.
Listen, I'm an island girl.I'm Cuban. That's. That's what happens.
But yeah, so I thinkultimately, Gator man, I always recommend
go to a run shop. That's whereyou're going to find somebody who
is going to help you find thebest bottle for your little paws
or maybe your large paws. Idon't want to. You know, we don't
kink Shame on this podcast.
(27:49):
No king shaming on gear, Abby.
But yeah, I think that's.That's what I'd say to Gatorman.
And you know what, dude, ifyou want to keep that Gatorade bottle,
you could just clean it. Youcan use a little bit of bleach. You
can use white vinegar andwater and just swirl it around and
like, the sucky part is where.That's the technical term.
Oh, my God.
Sucky part is where. Don't sayanything. Owen's gonna leave where
all the mold lives. Okay. But,dude, maybe Gatorade, if you want
(28:13):
to keep that, like Gatorman,that sweet, sweet. Those sweet, sweet
bpas coming back into yourbody, you could keep your old.
Bottle, but yeah, there you go.
That's all I got for you.
All right.
And we did have one on site question.
Oh, did we?
Came in from a Lloyd Vogel.
Oh, Lloyd.
Lloyd Moogle.
I think he's in attendance.Hi, Lloyd. There he is.
Wow. I can't wait to hear whatLloyd definitely asked.
Lloyd wants to know if youcould only run one surface for the
(28:36):
rest of your life, and you'vealready kind of revealed maybe what
your answer is.
Going to be today.
Would you pick rotor trail,and would the shoe have to have dyneema?
Oh, well, if I was runningwith Lloyd, it would have to have
dyneema, but no, I think I'dpick trail for the rest of my life.
Not just because I likenature. But also because I want it
to look purposeful when Ifall. So that's why trail's better,
(28:56):
in my opinion.
Right on. Well, thank you,Gear Abby, for putting on your Gear
Abbey hat.
No problem. Anything?
Answering some questions.Listen to the Gear Abbey podcast.
Everybody out there, if youdon't listen to it already, you're
missing out.
It's stickers. I got stickerswith you.
There's stickers.
All right.
And lastly for today, if youwere at our show at Switchback Spring,
we know why you're here. Youwant to know which booths we liked
(29:17):
and which booths maybe missed the.
Mark a little bit.
So let's turn things over tothe rock Fights brand and creative
expert. You know, he's yourfavorite producer. Dave. Dave. Are
you ready to reveal your dayone findings?
Come on.
You know, this was a groupeffort. Colin and I don't think we
said anything. I don't know ifthey missed the mark. Maybe they
were hitting a different markthat we weren't aware of. Right.
(29:39):
Might be more appropriate. Butlook, some of the standouts in day
one, and I hate to lead withthe biggest booth on the floor, and
I'm looking at you, Brooks, but.
If you go from the moon, but.
If you go behind the kid, youknow, part, you know, big coliseum
that they have there, there'sa fun house. Right. And back in the
(30:00):
Freedom Flex funhouse. Funhouse. And it is a, I think, one
of the best expressions of aproduct concept brought into a booth
that I've seen in a long time.So it's the flex, it's the mirrors,
it's curved metal shelves,it's the floor graphics. It really
brings to life this idea of adimensional shoe that moves in shapes.
And so that just is, like,really well done. It's really.
(30:21):
How much are they paying youto say that? They clearly didn't
blow their entire budget onthe booth.
I think you got some freeshoes for free. They give away shoes,
right?
I hear they give away shoes.
No, I think they reallycornered the market on the parkour
shoe, though.
Yeah, they did one and onlyunderserved part of the industry.
Yeah. The other one, you gottago with Superfeet in their geodesic
(30:42):
dome. It's mirrored. It's likea tour of a past tense future. It's
fantastic. I think you saidpre apocalyptic.
Pre apocalyptic, yeah.
That's great. I'm a sucker forthe classic. So I am going to call
out North Face. They do abooth. Well, simulated ground kind
of terrain. Just nice productdisplay. Arc' teryx. Does the same
(31:03):
thing. I'm just wondering whenthey're going to have the Riverwalk
fireworks display. I thinkthat'll go over really well.
Did you hear something latertonight? Actually, there are Antos
on the other side of thebuilding because they know what's
going on at the show.
Okay. From kind of the smallerbrands. There's Revive and Revel.
Or Revel. Excuse me, do itagain. Revive and Revel. They took
(31:24):
a 10 by 10 and turned it intokind of like Wayne's World's room
with album covers and some,you know, like a.
Like a teenage boy's band.
That was great. It was justwell done in terms.
Of you related is what you'resaying, looking at that.
Well, it was a little almostfamous. Sure, right. But no, I just
think it's good thought interms of what they're doing. So I
(31:45):
love seeing that. Next on ourlist is always looking for kind of
the sustainability position orthe nature based booths. And like
I kind of, you know, comment.It's a little different here because
we have, you know, twoindustries coming together. But you
know, Teva Recycling, thatwooden structure, you're always going
to get a call out for thatKeen, you know, that's their brand.
(32:07):
So they really brought it. Ithink their booth kind of embodies
this idea of a sustainablefootprint. They are growing a sprinter
van in the middle of thebooth, which I think is pretty cool.
You put some petroleum in the ground.
It just kind of comes up.Rabbit has an open floor plan, which
is also a nice way to do it.Where you.
The unbooth.
It's an unbooth, right? Kindof like Patagonia. They're kind of
(32:29):
like an unbooth.
Are they here?
Okay, they are.
They're right over there.
Oh, okay.
There's a space and then shoutout to mount to coast. They're using
the kind of the cardboard wallstructures. All free form. Again,
really, really smart use of it.
They sort of assembled anaggregate of different booth types.
I feel like they had therunning the finish line.
(32:50):
They did, you're right.
Whatever.
No, I think that's spot on.The next segment is brought to you
by the Mannequin DefenseLeague. This is a group that's out
there to make sure that brandsare using mannequins in a proper
way. And I'm gonna say Sauconyand Anta both have nice little displays
of mannequins. They're active,they're running. They look like right
(33:12):
form.
Mannequins don't like to be static.
They do not. Which, you know,New balance. The product looks nice,
but they're kind of like anormcore squad you got there. So
I think they're just standing.I think they prefer to be moving.
What y' all didn't see wasevery time Dave passed a booth with
mannequins, we lost him. Hewas standing there, just this little
small smile on his face,taking notes into his phone.
Only the good ones.
(33:32):
We're all pretty convinced hehas a bad one of mannequins in his
face.
We cry for sure. ACG had aterrarium going on, so it's always
nice to see mannequins intheir natural trail environment.
Who else did we see?
I know who we saw. We saw an animal.
We did Cotopaxi brought thedog Akin, which is also really cool.
And shout out to darn tough.They always have the sheep. Akin.
(33:55):
Right. Which is really cool tobring. But Cotopaxi.
Yeah.
Cotopaxi comeback player ofthe year from the Switchback spring
show, where we gave them some grief.
So.
Yeah.
Right, right.
It was a better use of space.They had it cozy, nice and warm.
We think you can do better.
We do.
Keep upping the game, guys.See you in New Orleans.
(34:16):
Which.
Which.
Which does lead us to what wecall the sad trombones, the underperformers.
This is why you've stayedaround users. You are still here.
I think, you know, this isjust one person's opinion. Colin's.
This is Colin's.
It's all Colin. Yes.
We weren't involved in this.
Not at all.
I'm going to say we saw CliffBar and it was really more of a table.
(34:37):
We did. They were here.
They were. It was. You know what?
It's just an assortment ofshot blocks just laid out on the
floor. Essentially.
It was just, you know what, Cliff?
Like, they have Kroger money.They don't need to be like, you know,
like, whatever, dude. Yeah,here's are some bars.
You know, just like when yourClif bar gets all soggy, that's kind
of just what they were doing.Ultimate direction. I didn't feel
(34:58):
very ultimate, and it didn'tfeel like in the right direction.
I think again, you got to justwork a little bit more, get that
concept out, which I'm alsogoing to call out Zero, the minimalist
brand. They stuffed a lot ofcontent into 10 by 10. And if you're
a minimal brand, that does notnot give me minimal vibes. So I think
we got to think about that.And then lastly, and probably most
(35:21):
sadly, here is Prana Right.Can somebody help me here? But is
Prana okay?
Are they okay?
Right?
Blink twice if you need help, please.
Prana, reach out.
They just brought a table. Ithink we can do more. I think they
forget they're owned byColumbia sometimes. Like, you've
got some money back there.Let's bring it.
I don't know. I think Columbiaalready spent all that money on their
advertising campaigns.
There's like the over. You geta rebrand, you get a re. Not you.
(35:43):
You do not get a rebrand.
Right?
Yeah, look, it was that sorrelad that was. That was.
Yeah, they spent all theproducts, all their money.
Exactly.
I think, though, it just goesback to, like, it doesn't matter
how big your booth is, howmuch budget you have to do this storytelling
is a conceptual thing in a 3Dspace. So can you bring your product
to life? Can you bring whatyour product or your brand values
(36:05):
to life? And like I said, it'snot about two stories. I mean, UFOS
has shown that, but you canreally be clever if you put some
thought to it.
Well done, Dave.
All right.
Did we offend anyone, do youthink? Was it too bad?
I think we did.
All right. Missionaccomplished. Listen, guys, that's
the show for today. Thank youall so much for being here. Thank
(36:25):
you for listening to the rockFight and showing up to support the
show. Please tip your servers.All right.
Over here. All right.
That guy right there, There heis. Yeah, he's waiting on him.
That's it.
We'll be here tomorrow. Pleasestop by and see us if you see us
running around. Listen to thisshow. We'll be up on Friday and then
we'll do our recap show forthe entire event, which will be out
next Monday. And like always,here to take us out is Krista Manx
(36:49):
with the rock fight fightsong. And we'll see you next time.
Rock fighters.
Rock fight. Rock fight. Rockfight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock
fight. Welcome to the rockfight where we speak our truth, slay
sacred cows and sometimesagree to disagree. We talk about
(37:10):
human powered outdoor activactivities and big bites about topics
that we find interesting likepop culture music, the latest movie
reviews, ideas that aim forthe head. This is where we speak
our truth. This is where wespeak our truth. Rock flight. Rock
flight. Rock flight. Welcometo the Rock flight. Rock flight.
(37:35):
Rock flight. Welcome to theRock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.
Rock flight. Rock fight. Rockfight. Fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.
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