May 1, 2025 • 49 mins
What happens when the supportive village that once raised our young athletes starts to crumble? Former basketball coach Darren Ault pulls back the curtain on youth sports culture today, sharing hard-earned wisdom from over three decades on the sidelines.
In this deeply personal conversation, Ault reveals the inspiration behind his book "Out of Bounds," chronicling how parent-coach relationships have transformed dramatically over his 22 years coaching high school girls basketball. From parents waiting in parking lots after games to public criticism of players, Ault describes the increasingly hostile environment coaches face while trying to build character through team sports.
The discussion explores how unrealistic expectations have warped youth athletics. With only 1% of athletes reaching professional levels, parents nonetheless invest thousands in specialized training, creating immense pressure on both coaches and young players. Social media compounds these challenges, shifting focus toward self-promotion rather than team development, while administrators often fail to provide proper support when conflicts arise.
Particularly fascinating is Ault's perspective on coaching evolution – from the "old school" accountability-focused approach to today's conflict-avoidant styles. This transition raises important questions about what young athletes miss when coaches can't push them beyond comfort zones. Ault shares touching stories about former players still calling him "Coach" decades later, underscoring how these relationships transcend sports and shape lives.
Through his "Outside the Coach's Box" podcast co-hosted with his son, Ault continues exploring sports dynamics while modeling the positive parent-child relationship sports should foster. His message for listeners resonates beyond athletics: remember that raising children truly takes a village, with coaches serving as vital mentors when given proper respect and support.
Whether you're a coach, parent, athlete, or simply concerned about youth development, this conversation offers compassionate wisdom for navigating the complex intersection of sports, parenting, and personal growth. Give Ault's "Out of Bounds" a read and join the conversation about restoring balance to youth sports.
Thank you for listening!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rocky (00:01):
Good evening everybody.
Welcome to another live editionhere on the Rockpile.
I'm excited.
Tonight on the Rockpile,tonight I bring you the second
episode of the Beyond the Gamepodcast Tonight.
This one has a special meaningto me, as many of you that
follow the Mohawk Valley SportsWatch high school coaches,
college coaches, nfl coaches andmore on a very important topic
(00:26):
that hits home for me, withyouth sports, parents and so
much more, and I'm excited towelcome.
He was a coach.
Author of the book Out of Bounds, darren Ault's going to join me
in just a moment.
If you have any questions forthe show tonight, you can put
them right in the comment box.
If you're following us onYouTube tonight, just make sure
you hit the subscribe buttonFacebook, twitter, linkedin, any
(00:48):
of the social media platformstonight.
I appreciate you tuning intonight for this special episode
.
So, without further ado, let mebring Darren on now with us.
Let me switch this up here.
How are you, coach?
I'm doing well, rocky.
How are you?
I'm doing great and, as you andI were just recently talking
before we came on here tonight,this one hits home for me.
(01:10):
We've had numerous discussionsabout the parents' involvement.
I've talked a lot about what Iwould say is the old school
coaches versus the coaches oftoday's game.
That I want to get into withyou.
But first, welcome to thepodcast.
Darren (01:25):
Thank you very much.
I appreciate the platform andthe opportunity to share this
conversation with you.
It is a pretty common thing,more common than most people
know, and I'm eager to share thestory with you.
Rocky (01:38):
So, darren, first give the audience tonight a little
bit of background on yourself.
I know a longtime coach.
You've coached the boys, thegirls, the high school level.
I know you spent some time incollege coaching.
But just give our audience aquick overview of yourself.
Darren (01:54):
Yeah, my pleasure.
I'm a native Californianoriginally but I was swept away
by a New Jersey girl and endedup in New Jersey for the last,
so I don't know since 1994,let's put it that way when I got
out of the Navy, and prettymuch right away well, actually,
when I was in the Navy, Istarted coaching and getting the
coaching bug.
I was working as an assistantcoach at the Naval Academy Prep
(02:16):
School in Newport, rhode Island,which is the college level that
you referred to, and we had aone-year rotation of kids
sometimes 10 recruits for Navy,sometimes one and every year was
a rebuilding year and we playedpeople like Harvard JV and
Brown JV and some of the bigprep schools like New Hampton
Prep and Main Central Institute.
So really fun basketball, butalso the challenge, like I said,
(02:38):
of having to redo every year.
Then, when I moved down to NewJersey, I started coaching
seventh and eighth grade boys.
I did that for about 12 years ata Catholic grammar school
called Holy family.
I had a wonderful time,wonderful experience building
that program and raising it tothe elevation of champions in
the leagues on multiple times.
Um, then I got into high schoolgirls coaching when a friend of
(02:59):
mine encouraged me at theCatholic high school locally
that, hey, this job's open up,why don't you go coach girls?
And I had never coached girls,it was always boys and young men
.
So I was like, okay, that'd bean interesting challenge.
And uh, I tell you what I gotinto it and I absolutely loved
it and I spent 22 years in NewJersey and the Jersey shore
conference um coaching highschool girls basketball at the
(03:20):
varsity level.
Rocky (03:25):
Yeah, I'll say this is.
I had the opportunity this yearso I was giving you a little
bit about my background.
So I was a head varsityfootball coach for a little
while at a small class D schoolhere at Sequoia High School in
Sequoia, new York.
I spent some time with my dad,who was a head varsity coach for
well over 35 years.
And then I came back here to myhometown school in Rome, free
Academy here in Rome, new York,as a modified coach.
(03:48):
But I spent some time at theyouth coach in AAU boys
basketball, which I'll get intowith that, with you here in just
a little bit.
And then this past year mydaughter, who's only nine years
old, said to me one day Dad,you've always coached, aiden,
you've never coached any girlsports.
So I got the opportunity thisyear, darren, I coached girls'
third and fourth gradebasketball and I will tell you
(04:11):
they were better than anyvarsity, any modified coach
boy's sport I've ever coached.
They listened.
It was so much better.
So I said to myself, I said tomy wife, I said I must have
missed something in my daybecause the girls were a lot
easier to coach than the boyswere.
Darren (04:27):
Yeah, you know they're gold and listen, it's.
It's a different style ofcoaching, a different way of
reception between boys and girlsand and I enjoyed the heck out
of both Um, but the girls werereally special in a lot of ways
and the biggest ways.
I always said to uh.
To people ask me, why don't youever go back to boys?
I said the girls are sponges,they want to learn, they want to
(04:48):
be taught the fundamentals,they want to.
They function better genuinelyas a team, where the boys and I
don't know if you know back inmy day it was Reggie vision
Every time Reggie Jackson hit ahome run, or ESPN and the
highlights but they get caughtup a lot in the individuality
and the ego part of the game andsometimes that can get in the
way unless you're able to breakthrough that.
(05:09):
But I absolutely love coachinggirls.
Rocky (05:12):
So, darren, you come up with the book, the topic, the
name of the book Out of Bounds,which I will say I just
purchased, so I haven't gottenit in yet to read the full book.
Yet I've read parts that I'veseen online.
Where did the name Out ofBounds come from for you?
What inspired you to write thebook?
And then the other question ishow did you arrive at the name?
Darren (05:36):
So the inspiration and first of all I have to give my
wife props because she designedthe cover of the book as well.
It's great.
It's great, thank you.
But the the inspiration camefrom when I was at currently at
modern day high school.
I was about 11 or 12 years intothat coaching experience and I
(05:56):
started to notice the couple ofyears prior to that that
engagements with parents not allof them, I mean, trust me, this
is a handful but the engagementwith parents where they started
to challenge more publicly,more openly, the coaches,
decisions around playing time,starters, etc.
The engagements became morenegative, more visceral, more
(06:18):
hateful in a job where you'retrying to, I think, collaborate
with parents in helping shapetheir daughters in this case, or
their sons if you're coachingboys to be good people through
the context of a team sport,basketball.
So I started to notice thatthat was happening more often
and, like I said, there wereactual outbursts on sidelines,
(06:41):
not just towards me, butsometimes fathers of my team
degrading girls that were onthat team playing with their
daughter very loudly, verypublicly.
The point, and I write aboutthis in the book well, one young
lady I happened to call out atimeout because I could hear it
and I could see it affecting her, melted in my arms, crying that
this father would say thatabout her.
So that became kind of the cruxor the meat of hey, there's
(07:08):
something going on here and Iwas trying to understand it.
So I took that opportunity, kindof went backwards through my
career to that point and justthought of those moments not
often, but enough to where itstuck, where there were these
kinds of engagements withparents, and see if I could put
any framework around it.
The title itself came from oneof those conversations again in
(07:28):
the book, where this was afriend of mine who I coached AAU
with and had the absolutepleasure of coaching both or two
of his daughters on my highschool team, where he thought
with his oldest daughter that Ihad given quote, unquote her job
away and we're on a phoneconversation and again, because
he was a friend, we, you know,probably got into areas that I
wouldn't do with normal parents.
But at one point he juststarted to get really angry and
(07:51):
and I said to him you're out ofbounds on this one.
And then it just kind of dawnedon me wow, that that's probably
a really good title for a book.
Rocky (07:59):
Yeah, I had, um, a friend of mine, uh, his father.
His father is one of thewinningest basketball coaches
here in New York State and Iremember he used to tell us and
he's won I think it was twostate championships.
This way coached at a smallclass, d school.
Here we go AA, a, b, c and D,so small school and he used to
say every year he would getvoted in by one vote at the
(08:22):
board meetings to come back andcoach.
And here's a guy that won moregames than anybody but it was
never enough, I feel like, forus coaches and I still consider
myself a coach, but us coaches,even when you're winning, it was
never good enough for parents.
When you're losing, they wantto throw you out.
(08:43):
And one thing and I think youtalked about this on another
podcast and I've talked aboutthis there's a lot of good
athletes in our hometown hereand a lot of good athletes
across the Mohawk Valley where Ilive and I say this all the
time and I don't downgrade anykid because if you have the
opportunity, darren and youcould play at like a division,
three level division, twodivision one junior college.
(09:03):
There's a lot of good collegesout there that you can play
competitively and it's goodbasketball.
Right, in your case, you were abasketball coach.
But I feel like the parentsthink that, well, my kid's going
to be the next stud player atDuke or they're going to be the
next great football player atOhio State.
The percentages of thathappening are so small.
Right, I think it's like 1% or2% of the kids that actually can
(09:24):
play at the professional level,but I feel like that's kind of
taken over with all these AUtournaments that go on.
You have all these privatetrainers now that go on.
Do you agree with that?
Do you think that was one ofthe big issues with parents?
Darren (09:37):
I definitely think it's in the mix of what had started
to elevate these engagements.
Right, you have certainly a lotof people under the hopeful eye
that, hey, I can go get adivision one scholarship, or my
son or daughter can, and, toyour point, even have ambitions
of going to play pro, and formen, that is about 1.3% of
(09:59):
people who do that, and forwomen it's actually less than 1%
.
For basketball and andprofessional sports in general,
unless you want to be, I thinkit was ice hockey, there was
actually the best odds at around33% for men and for women, but
every other sport that there'sonly so many people that can
continue to elevate or have theskill sets or the mental
(10:20):
capacity because the game isjust as much mental as it is
physical to combine all thosethings together to elevate to
the point of being aprofessional.
But parents do get lost in thatwash.
Um, the challenges around aauand the cost.
The cost.
Since I was an aau coach, costhas gotten ridiculous, not just
in what you have to pay to be ona team, but the, the, you know
(10:42):
the?
Um, the shoes, and sometimes,if you're lucky enough, you're
sponsored um, and which makes ita business kind of entity uh to
get into these events is like$90 for for uh for a weekend
showcase.
You know, it's just, it'sridiculous and it's really
taking the emphasis and thefocus off of the game and the
joy and the passion behind itand learning how to be better as
(11:03):
an individual but, mostimportantly, in that team
construct.
Rocky (11:08):
Yeah, I was really fortunate enough.
I played for a lot of oldschool coaches here locally and
in my hometown.
You know we were really knownfor football when I played, and
for a long time.
But I grew up.
What I would say is the oldschool coaches that had no
problem getting in your face.
They were very vocal, right,they yelled, but as us players
(11:31):
back in the day and I'm talkingprobably like in your 80s, 90s,
maybe the early 2000s, where itwas just part of it we respected
those coaches.
And I feel like nowadays, likeif you get a coach that gets on
a player, you know at some pointyou're going to get a call from
the athletic director.
Let's say, hey, you know,joey's mom called in and said
(11:52):
you know you were yelling at himin practice and you're not
playing him.
So I feel like today'sgeneration and some of my
buddies are coaches are going toyell at me when I say this.
I think they're soft, like.
I think they're soft and Ithink they've kind of changed
their style because they're soworried that they're soft, like
I think they're soft and I thinkthey've kind of changed their
style because they're so worriedthat they're going to get
called in and, who knows, maybethey're going to get fired as a
coach because they were tootough.
(12:13):
Would you agree with that?
Nowadays versus the older days?
Darren (12:17):
Well, I do think there's a lot more looking over your
shoulder as to how youadminister coaching today, which
is a shame, because if, firstof all, when you're at a game
and you're hearing a coachbarking out instructions or
elevating their voice so thatthey can be heard over the crowd
of people and the cheerleadersand everything else that's going
on in the gym so that they canbe heard to their players, yeah,
(12:40):
it can sound like yelling, itcan sound like screaming if you
want, but the important partthere is to listen to the
content of what they're saying,not the volume at which they're
saying it.
Right, and so that can be kindof misconstrued they.
What people also don't get theopportunity to see is how that
relationship is built throughpractice.
You know the, the engagement,the, the buildup, the, the
(13:02):
challenge of.
I always coach my kids.
You know, push yourself to failwhen we're doing drills.
I want you to be working sohard that you're going to lose
control of that basketball, andthen I don't want you to drop
your head.
I want you to go, race acrossthe court wherever it is, pick
it up and start over again.
But you had mentioned thegeneration of coaches.
I think it's the currentgeneration of parents that are
(13:24):
afraid of holding their childrenaccountable to those kinds of
challenges, to failing toactually allowing them to fail
and learn from those failures,to coach in their home to
elevate their energy and effortand have expectations out of
them that they will carry thatto things they do outside the
home, and so I think it's kindof a mushing of those two things
(13:47):
.
Rocky (13:48):
Yeah, and you know, what I think is even crazy now today
is you have we have one not toofar from here, but there's a
couple indoor sports complex andI was a three-sport athlete.
I was basketball, baseball andfootball and always found time
to whether it was getting aweight room and get some extra
shots up for basketball.
And it's like nowadays I feellike the three sport athlete is
(14:09):
gone.
I feel like nowadays, like evenwhen I'm seeing with my own son
, if you don't play basketballall year round come basketball
season, you know you might getpassed up because somebody might
be doing it all year round.
What's your thoughts on?
Like the three sport athlete,you know, and nowadays you've
got some kids that are sportspecific.
Darren (14:29):
I prefer the multiple sport athlete to you know, just
in terms of avoiding repetitivestress injuries, because they're
testing their muscles and thesupporting tissues and ligaments
and tendons in different ways.
They're not constantly puttingthe same kind of stress on it,
ligaments and tendons indifferent ways, they're not
constantly putting the same kindof stress on it.
They're learning differentelements of the game that do
translate to basketball or toother sports.
(14:49):
You know angles on the court,advancing to position yourself
for passing or vision to whereyou can engage a teammate when
you have the basketball.
Some of my best basketballplayers have been soccer players
first, as a matter of fact, atmy last stint at Holmdel High
School, one of my favoriteplayers I know we're not
supposed to have favorites, butevery coach does One of my
(15:12):
favorite players during theCOVID year, as we were
navigating, you know, coming outof COVID, but as we navigated
that year coming out, sheactually had the opportunity to
and did letter in five differentsports for the high school and
beyond, the playing and thegrowth and development as an
individual and the understandingof teamwork which is going to
transcend sports into everythingyou do in life.
Rocky (15:33):
Beyond that, she was supporting her school and I
think that's magnificent yeah, Ifeel like as, as us coaches
know, you have a lot ofincidents where and I can count
on one hand of what makes memost proud today is even with my
dad, who's older than I am.
(15:54):
But when I hear people stillcall him coach, they still come
up to me and still call me coachand I'm talking from years ago
10, 15 years ago when I coachedat a couple of schools.
The meaning coach to you, whatdoes it mean to you when you
hear some of your former playersstill say, hey, coach, thanks
for that life lesson that youtaught me when you were coach,
(16:15):
because I know you talk aboutsome of that in your book.
Darren (16:17):
Yeah, it's titles excuse me, titles the wrong word but
it's absolutely anacknowledgement of respect and
relationship, friendship to apoint that has built this
chemistry from years ago.
You know, I've had 40,41-year-old men who come to me
(16:38):
today and say Coach, what Ilearned as a father, as a man,
came from you.
When I played for you in seventhand eighth grade, I had one
young man told me he wanted togo and join the Navy, but his
mother wouldn't let him do itand it was because of what he
saw in the values that I showedin practice and he wanted to
replicate those, you know, youngladies who are now adults,
(17:03):
married, have children, and they, just, you know, scream from
across the shopping center hey,coach, you know, and run up and
give you a hug.
And that is the greatest reward,those relationships that are
built in that player-coachrelationship and the ones that
are not violated, certainly, bythese intrusive parent
(17:23):
circumstances.
But even those, even thehardest one of those where there
was that conflict, even thoseare endearing relationships that
hold today.
And so, as a coach, you know, Ididn't get paid much when I was
in high school coaching, and Ididn't want it, I would coach
for free and most of my time atthe, at the naval academy prep
(17:44):
school and in seventh and eighthgrade boys, was all volunteer,
wasn't getting paid anything,and I would have continued to do
that because it was abouthelping develop these young men
and women morally, mentally andphysically to be better people.
Rocky (17:56):
And I know, darren, you talk about in the book where you
had you had the incident thatled you to why you're not
coaching anymore, and I want toask like is there any regrets
that you have of how it washandled?
And one of the things I knowyou've talked about in some of
your other podcasts is the roleadministrators play, and we can
(18:16):
get into that in a little bit aswell, because I think
administrators now cater toparents more now than they ever
did.
But is there anything that,when you look back on what
happened, would you have doneanything different?
Darren (18:30):
No, because to this day, I'm still not even sure what I
did, so I can't say that I wouldhave done anything different.
However, if there had been aclear delineation of, hey, this
was being perceived or felt thatit was a violation of some kind
or another, then I wouldcertainly have looked at it and
tried to understand it and triedto modify it.
(18:52):
Unfortunately, I was nevergiven that opportunity.
The way I coached was a veryloving and engaged coach.
I wanted the best for my kids,but I also want to let them know
fairly they're going to bechallenged.
I have expectations for you,your teammates have expectations
for you, and we are ultimatelyaccountable to each other.
You know to be the best team wecan be, so the respect was
(19:21):
always there, and so if therewas something that I did wrong,
I would have loved theopportunity for it to be
identified and to correct it,which I think in any walk of
life, anybody would appreciatethat opportunity.
Rocky (19:31):
I say this all the time and I'll stand by this, but I
think that's one of the reasonstoday.
So I'm not a teacher, soteachers in this area always
have the priority.
So like if a teacher applies toa coaching job and I apply to a
coaching job, some schools willhire the teacher over the one
that's not a teacher.
Now some schools do not go bythat.
(19:51):
Where I was hired for my firstcoaching job, there were
teachers that were interestedbut I was hired.
So each school has theirdifferent policies.
I will stand to this day that Ithink coaches the good coaches
walk a really, really thin line,because if you do make a
mistake or you get on a kid,like I said earlier, the way the
(20:14):
administrators have handled alot of coaches, I think is a
reason why, to this day, a lotof those good coaches don't
apply for jobs anymore.
They don't want to coachbecause they don't want to have
to deal with situations likewhat you're talking about and
have to deal with stuff becauseI feel like they're guilty no
matter what.
Like what happened to the dayswhere an athletic director can
(20:36):
pull you in, sit down with witha parent and yourself and say,
let's talk about it.
What happened?
I feel like that's gone away.
Darren (20:44):
Well, I think in order to have any of those kinds of
meaningful conversations aroundconflict or perceived conflict,
uh, you have to have somebody tolead through that, especially
if they're playing the role ofarbitrator or neutral party.
Unfortunately, I don't thinkthat exists in a lot of schools
today and it certainly did notexist in Holmdel High School at
(21:05):
the time when I was incorrectlysuspended and then was afforded
no due process, so, um, butthere was an absolute failure of
leadership or just a lack ofdesire to lead in this perceived
conflict that and I said it inthe book and you probably heard
on a couple of podcasts that ifsomebody had stepped up to be
(21:27):
that leader, to be thatrepresentative of both parties,
a neutral party, this could havebeen resolved in a day.
Instead, it dragged out for 40days and ultimately cost me my
coaching career that season,certainly, which was painful
enough but made me a littleleery of getting back involved
in youth sports Because, likeyou, I didn't work in a school.
(21:50):
I don't work in a school.
I never have worked in a schoolother than the Naval Academy
prep school, because that was myassignment coming out of Naval
Academy at one point.
But I did.
I had my job, my regular job,and oftentimes would take half a
vacation day to be on the buswith the girls to go to a
basketball game.
You know, you know that.
You know the drill and I lovedit.
I had no regrets about that.
(22:11):
Would do that all I could, um.
But at the same time I'm notafforded or people like us who
coach from that perspective arenot afforded any of the safety
and the support that a unionteacher would get in school what
?
Rocky (22:24):
what are your thoughts on the pressure now?
I feel like there's morepressure now on athletes than
what there was years ago.
And again I just my son's aseventh grader playing modified
baseball right now and I look atnow like in college with this
NIL basically it's professionalsports.
The colleges now really aren'trecruiting the high school kids
anymore because they're gettingkids in the transfer portal,
(22:47):
which makes it even more harderon the young kids, which is more
stressful to the young kids,and I did a podcast on mental
health because I think that'sgotten out of hand nowadays too.
But do you think there's morepressure now on these young kids
than what there were years ago?
Darren (23:03):
Yeah, I don't think there's any question about that,
just because of the way collegesports or collegiate athletics,
has become a business.
It always has been a business.
It hasn't been very honestabout that, but it has been a
business, but even more so nowthat it's out in the open, with
NIL and the wild, wild west,that the portal has created
(23:23):
beyond the intent of giving acollegiate athlete the
opportunity to.
Hey, the coach who recruited meis gone.
He was a big reason, or she wasthe big reason I came to this
campus.
Uh, I'd like to go somewhereelse.
That has completely blown up.
And you bring up a great point,rocky, that, um, you know that
the kids that are in high schoollooking to get some of these
scholarship positions are nowsecondary and even sometimes
(23:46):
tertiary to that decisionbecause of the portal kids,
because of junior college kids.
And if I'm a college coach insome regard, why wouldn't I go
look at a more seasoned playerfirst to fill my any holes I
have in my roster, as opposed tobringing in a younger person
who's going to need that ramp upperiod?
Rocky (24:06):
What were some of the challenges right right in your
book?
Do you have any any specificparts of the book that that
stands out to you?
That was challenging to write.
Yeah, it was probably allchallenging, right, but you have
so many good stories in there,I'm sure Well you know there's a
couple layers to that onion.
Darren (24:24):
So first of all, I wanted the book.
I wanted to get the message,the messages, the lessons from
the book out in a way that itdidn't feel like I was just
browbeaten people about thetoxicity of sports.
Yes, it has a lot to do withthat and yes, it's through the
lens of basketball.
But I think a lot of theconversation that I offer and I
leave it really to the reader tokind of pull that out in from
(24:45):
their experiences but a lot ofwhat I offer is beyond sports,
beyond the game of basketball.
And so the difficult part,first of all, was making sure I
had that balance.
And you know I offer a lot ofstories in there that are fun,
that are about resilience, thatare about, you know,
accomplishment for the youngplayers through my interactions
(25:08):
with them around those morenegative stories, you know.
So I tried to provide thatbalance and that was a little
tricky.
Staying on target was trickybecause after 33 years of
coaching I got a lot of things Icould share and the book would
have been like 3,000 pages longand nobody would have bought it.
But so trying to make sure Istayed focused on what the
overarching theme was, and thenthe biggest complexity, I think,
(25:32):
of the challenge was theemotional aspect of it, because,
um, some of the more, uh,visceral meetings or engagements
(25:56):
, um, that are laid out prettywell in the book, um, especially
the last, you know my fouryears at at home, though, and
the way that that ended sounexpectedly and so so wrongly,
um, and having to relive thatagain after having just gotten
to a point where I kind ofwasn't thinking about it as much
, but it was.
So it was so much of the meatof, um, or the showcase really
(26:19):
of, of where that parentalinfluence, that negative
influence, was just so over thetop.
Rocky (26:27):
Darren, we were talking before we came on just for a few
minutes and, uh, you talked alittle bit about you get the.
You get the opportunity to toto do a podcast with your son.
Yeah, I had the.
I had the opportunity.
To this day I still say it'sthe best.
Best time of my life that I hadin coaching was I got the
opportunity.
I was assistant coach for mydad and then my dad retired and
(26:49):
then I got him out of retirementwhen I got my first head job to
be one of my assistants.
So I had the opportunity tocoach with my dad, which was
awesome.
Some challenging times, youknow, arguing a little bit
behind the scenes, but at theend of the day it was great.
Talk to us a little bit aboutthe podcast you host with your
son and the name of it and whattype of show is it.
Darren (27:11):
So the name of it is Outside the Coach's Box and it's
on Spotify and on YouTube too,not as a channel, but there are
episodes out there and it was myson's idea.
He came to me one day a coupleof years ago, and probably three
or four now, and said hey, dad,why don't we do a podcast?
And my first instinct, beingGeneration X, was who wants to
(27:32):
listen to me talk about anything?
But he said you know, dad, wetalk about sports all the time
on the, on the couch, and we gothrough topics, you know, not
just the, the top scorers andthat kind of thing, but talk
about some of the challenge,like we just did around nil, or
um, you know, is aaron rogersgoing to be on the steelers, why
, or why not?
Those kind of things.
And so ultimately he worked mefor a couple of years, punched
(27:54):
me like a punching bag until Ifinally committed to it and, um,
it's been great.
He's, he does a really good jobwith it.
Uh, he's kind of the creator.
He is the creator and and theum, you know the uh, he runs the
studio and does all thepublication stuff.
And then I tease him.
I tease him by saying I'm thetalent, but it's really his
(28:15):
talent that has allowed us to doit.
He's very good at networking.
We've had some wonderful guests.
Tim Kapstra, the voice of theNets, was on our podcast.
Coach Brian Newberry from NavyFootball was on our podcast.
We've had an NFL official ontwice and now he's on a
recurring bit with us around,you know, right after the
Superbowl, just talking aboutyeah.
(28:37):
And so we've had Zoe Brooksfrom the NC state, wolf Wolf
pack girls basketball or women'sbasketball.
She was a local fan favoritefrom St John Vianney high school
but you know we got her onafter she went to NC state and,
yeah, just a great experience.
And it I think it's alsosomething that was born out of
basketball, my coaching career,because I did have the wonderful
(28:59):
opportunity to coach all threeof my kids, a son and two
daughters in basketball, mygirls from AAU through high
school.
So there's six to eight yearsat times where we were together
an awful lot, you know, andworking through the dynamics of
hey, I'm your dad, I love youvery much, but I'm your coach
when I'm inside these lines andthere's a little bit of a
(29:21):
dynamic.
Still, love you very much, butthere, you know, there's
different expectations,different challenges and we have
to be able to be on the samepage.
And then, ultimately, to whatyou said with your father.
I definitely had theopportunity at Holmdel High
School to coach with my son hewas my assistant coach there and
then, on the AAU circuit, withmy oldest daughter.
She and I coached together andthen the last stint she was
(29:42):
actually the head coach and Iwas the assistant trying to pass
the torch, and it was a lot offun, a lot of fun.
Rocky (29:47):
Yeah, I got to give my dad some credit because my dad
was one of the old schoolcoaches that I talked about
earlier with you.
But when I came, when Igraduated from college and I
came on with him, I'd like tosay my dad was, in football
terms, line up in the Iformation run the ball between
the tackles and I came, I cameon and said we're gonna throw
the ball around a little bit andwe got one game.
(30:08):
He said if it, if it wasn't foryou, he goes.
We might have been throwing theball 30 times a game because he
goes.
I didn't throw that in my wholeentire career coaching so he
was able to adapt.
Darren (30:17):
So it was fun having dad around, yeah that fresh
perspective that people offertoo, and the combination, the
chemistry between coaches isreally, really important.
And the young lady who I hiredwho's now we consider a part of
the family who I hired as myfirst assistant at Homedale High
School.
We sat, the interview wassupposed to be like 20 minutes.
We sat for an hour and a halftalking about basketball and
(30:40):
offenses and things that she'sdone, and she was only, you know
, in her early twenties at thetime and I was a sponge I wanted
to learn more about.
You know, what can I do totweak my coaching style or my
game, the way I teach the kids?
That might be better fortoday's game and I think a lot
of coaches lose out on thatopportunity, you know.
Rocky (31:00):
Darren, one thing I wanted to ask you a little bit
about, too, was you know,nowadays you know we're doing a
show like this, but all thesesocial media channels that are
out there.
Now you've got these cellphones that all have cameras and
I'm trying to go back to when II played if I would have had
the phone that I have now the,the apple phone or the droids
and you can get on social media.
How much in today's game hasthat impacted too with with
(31:23):
parents, how they can interactnow with with coaches and and
players?
I feel like now even like inyou watch these guys on the NBA.
Some of them are tweeting onthe bench during these games,
but social media has taken over.
Darren (31:36):
It has.
It's definitely part of theproblem and, listen, it's a
great tool in a lot of respectsas well and, like anything else,
you have to be able to dothings in balance.
But certainly, I mean, Iremember not that long ago,
girls would bring their phonesinto practice and have them on
the bench next to their gear andevery water break they'd go to
their phone.
First it was a water break andthey would go to their phone and
(31:59):
and then that would advancewith with social media that
they'd start taking selfiesduring practice.
So I, you know, I I tried toadapt it and say, okay, girls,
listen, I get it, but duringpractice you put the phone in
the bag.
I do not want to see it and ifI do, we're going to be doing
some exercises right.
And then one girl tried tooutsmart me.
She'd get the Apple watch and Inoticed she kept looking down
at her watch during practice.
So that was the next iterationof OK, we've got to manage this.
But I think the the worst partabout social media is how much
(32:24):
of it is driven around promotingself.
Even in what we would considersome individual sports, there is
a team element to it, and ifall you're worried about is
promoting self or getting yoursor getting your attention, then
you're missing the whole pictureand the time that you're
spending with your face in thatphone.
(32:45):
You're missing an opportunityto just get to know a different
teammate that you know.
Maybe a sophomore came up whoyou didn't get to play with last
year because she's on JV.
Rocky (32:59):
Well, let me get to learn a little bit more about her.
Darren.
What would be the message forfor people listening tonight,
and for some that'll listen onthe on the playback, um, or
people to read your book?
What would be the message you'dwant to relate to the audience
tonight?
Darren (33:09):
yeah, I think the biggest thing.
You know, I was taught at avery young age and tried to
bring it into and then actually,because of some of my family
background, you know, my, myparents divorced when I was
three.
But the saying around it takesa village to raise a child
actually resonated with mebecause there were times where
my uncle was my, myauthoritarian.
You know, if I ever crossed mymother she would call my uncle
(33:32):
Chuck.
Oh, I knew at that point I'dgone too far, but he was also
one of my best coaches, one ofmy best consults in life and in
meanings of life.
And then the value of teachers.
I could go through a long listof teachers that that I just
truly appreciated and and and umwere endeared to them in the
way that they taught and the waythey got their message across.
(33:53):
And same with coaches.
And I think a lot of timesparents lose that focus.
Today, to be a parent today iseven more complex because both
parents have to work and youknow, to make ends meet and the
kids are home alone a lot.
So to have that extra set ofeyes, that extra voice in their
head which, again, it's not allcoaches, it's not all teachers,
(34:14):
but I would say most of them arefocused on how do we help make
this child a better person, getthem ready for what comes next.
So that would really be themessage is to remember that
you're not in it alone as aparent.
It does take a village to raisea child and build those
relationships around trust andrespect.
Rocky (34:36):
Yeah, and Darren, you just talked a little bit about
it, but I wanted to ask you youknow, even in the business world
today, I still I tell my peopleat work I'm still a coach At
work, they call me coach.
I'm the VP of a bus company andwhether you're on a playing
field, a court or whatever itmay be, once a coach, always a
coach.
And you know, growing up I hadsome mentors that helped me
(34:56):
along the way, even in the inthe business field.
Who are some mentors for you,whether it be in the business
field, the coaching aspect as aplayer, who are some of your
mentors growing up?
Darren (35:07):
Well, I definitely had some teachers that I, I, uh, I
loved and respected quite a bit,and a lot of times they were
the harder ones, you know.
They were the ones that kept meon track or pushed my my limits
to get the most out of me.
I remember my Spanish andEnglish teacher in my freshman
and sophomore year in highschool Huayrica High School in
Northern California.
(35:27):
It was Doña Lucia Cardosa, youknow, and she came from Spain.
She was a Spanish immigrantfrom the time where Franco was
the dictator and fled Spain andcame to America and she was both
my Spanish and my Englishteacher.
So imagine that.
But you know, she was great andso impactful to my youth that
(35:48):
when I went off to the NavalAcademy, I would often, like you
know, once every three months,I'd send her a letter just
letting her know how I'm doingand she would write me back.
You know, the unfortunate partwas it started off all in
Spanish but by the time I gotaway from Spanish class it
became kind of partially Spanish, partially English.
Some great coaches along thelines you know, in basketball I
(36:11):
had Mr Sly and Mr Pontoni inback-to-back years, seventh and
eighth grade year who totallydifferent kinds of coaches, but
very impactful and on thenot-so-good way.
I had a couple coaches early inhigh school that you know.
I liked them, they were greatpeople, I had a lot of respect
for them.
I just didn't like the way theymanaged the game and I learned
from them and I learned fromthem.
(36:32):
The coach I worked with TomMarriott at the Naval Academy
Prep School.
He was a very big influence inme and you know that was my
first stint in coaching.
So moving from being a playerto a coach and being able to
view the game in a totallydifferent way, I mean I wish I
could have played collegebasketball after having been a
coach.
You know, you just see andunderstand the game in such a
(36:55):
different way and certainly inin in my corporate world, my
corporate experiences aftergetting out of the navy.
There was a gentleman who hiredme out of the navy who was a 59
grad from the academy howardberkowitz.
I was an 88 grad.
He gave me my first opportunityto go to work and just his
leadership, the way he would.
He would walk around thebuilding and talk to every.
(37:16):
He knew everything.
He knew your, your wife's name,your kid's names, their ages,
and he would stop with a cup ofcoffee in his hand and just go
talk to every single person, getto know them as people, not
just his employees, um, and thengo out to the warehouse and do
the same guys for you know, thesame for our operational team
and just phenomenal example ofleadership by example.
And and uh, getting to knowyour folks, uh, and in my
(37:38):
current job I just have awonderful leadership team at
Shaw industries that you knowyou could pick the.
They're all great, but youcould pick little pieces of gold
from each one of them and kindof, um, frankenstein yourself
into being a pretty good leader.
Rocky (37:58):
So the, the, the coach Darren of old, old, and we'll
say the coach darren.
Now what's?
Darren (38:01):
different.
What's changed?
Uh, a lot of self-improvement.
You know, there there was, uh,when I first got into coaching I
would say I was kind of a bitof a hot head.
Um, all for the right reasons,like to protect my kids to, you
know, get caught up in theemotion of the game, get caught
up in the bad call or whateverit is, and just kind of really
intense around that competition.
But then I would start toevolve and, under, you know,
(38:24):
learn how to manage officials inthe game and build
relationships with them, becausethey're important to it as well
, you know, help the playersunderstand more about themselves
.
So and this was a real strugglewith the girls in particular
that they would come in and justdon't have the level of
confidence, self-confidence thatboys do, and sometimes boys
(38:46):
have too much of it, anabundance of self-confidence.
But to be able to help work themthrough the psychology of the
game, you know Michael Jordantalked about it a lot of times.
He's known to hit X amount ofgame-winning shots, but nobody
talks about the ones that hemissed and there's a great
poster out there somewhere thatsays how he missed 9,000 shots
(39:07):
and he just kept working throughthose failures where a lot of
kids today, because of thepressures that you mentioned
previously, are hung on everysingle moment as opposed to, and
when there is failure in thatmoment, they get so absorbed by
it that they become almostineffective in everything else
they do and oftentimes will findtheir way to the bench not
(39:28):
because they did something wrongbut because they've taken
themselves out of the game.
And so to help players workthrough that and understand the
concept of next sequence, youknow, in a game which a good
buddy of mine had taught meduring the AAU days, you know
think about the next event.
No matter what happens in theone, good or bad, what's the
next event?
How can you impact the nextthing?
(39:49):
So next sequence became thatkind of mantra as I got older
and more experienced in coachingwith the kids and helping them
elevate beyond just thatparticular moment.
Rocky (40:00):
And one of the last things I wanted to ask you about
for some of the young coachesout there that will be listening
here tonight and on theplayback what would be some of
your advice to them that arelooking to get into coaching,
knowing how much tougher it isnow than what it was, you know,
years ago, having to deal withthe parents?
Darren (40:18):
Yeah, you know that's.
That's an interesting dynamic,because if it's about getting
into coaching, if you have thatpassion to to work with young
people and help them realize thepotential that's within them,
and then the best part about itis taking those individuals and
having them actually achievesomething as a team.
And it's taking thoseindividuals and having them
actually achieve something as ateam.
Go for it.
There is no greater reward, nogreater engagement than being
(40:42):
able to and to your point.
You said you know you still doit in work and so do I.
But there is no greaterconnection than being able to
help somebody see the lightaround their ability to do
something and then having themcontinue to mature and graduate
to those next steps.
So I would say, from thatcomponent, go for it, but go for
it with eyes wide open, becauseit is.
(41:07):
It is tense, it is a lot morenegative, it is a lot more, much
more of a struggle in thatdynamic between parent and coach
today than I've ever seen it.
You know to where it's not justaround challenging you and your
capabilities or looking to getrid of you because you, you know
Susie doesn't quite get enoughplaying time, but they don't see
(41:29):
how she practices, or thatshe's always running to the
bench to get on her phone, andyou know those kinds of things
that we talked about.
So be wide open and the biggestmessage I would say to both
parent and coach in thatrelationship is is give each
other some grace.
When you're, when you're inthese moments of a as a parent
as to challenging or asking why,well, think about where that
(41:52):
coach is coming from in theirperspective.
They're seeing your son ordaughter every day.
In that particular context.
You are not right.
It would be almost like youknow me as a coach, coming into
your dinner table I'm trying totell you how to parent your
child.
Tell that boy to get his elbowsoff the table or whatever it is
.
And then vice versa, as as acoach, when a player and when a
(42:13):
parent does come hot, don't justdismiss them with all right you
know I don't want to talk aboutthis or I don't want to talk
about that but give them thegrace to understand that maybe,
maybe you know their child had abad game or the team had a bad
game and it's just not a goodtime to talk about these things.
But be willing to have thosethose crucial conversations
around that and then for both,ultimately around the player.
(42:41):
That that's where the biggestamount of grace needs to be
applied, because kids put a lotof pressures on themselves.
I talk about in the book, aboutthe 24 hour rule.
Like you know, my wife waswonderful, but she would always
start to coach the kids rightafter they got out of a game and
I was like, oh my God, this carride is going to be horrible,
you know.
But the worst thing I think youcan do as a parent or a coach
is to harp on that moment likejust to keep reliving it.
They know what they did wrongor what.
You know what the failures were, or even if in an ugly wind, it
(43:05):
wasn't quite as good as itshould have been.
So give them the grace to kindof work through it first and
most kids, I think, will come toyou and say hey, what do you
think about my defense?
Or you know that kind of thing.
Rocky (43:16):
And I remember I had some parents waiting for me in a
parking lot on a Friday night,you know, after a game and the
parents meeting before the yearstarted.
I'd say, listen, I don't cometo your workplace.
All I ask is when the game isover and we played on Friday
nights is, you know, give me theweekend, a Monday, before
practice or after practice, ifyou want to come in and talk to
me, and you know anything likethat.
But the parents that would waitfor you to park a lot or, you
(43:39):
know, after a game.
And I was like, oh, just justjust give me the benefit of the
doubt.
Let me talk to your son first,if your son has a problem why
they're not playing.
And I remember I had a parentcome to me one time and say you
one time and say, you know, whyis my kid not playing?
And I said, well, your kidhasn't been to practice all week
.
And they said, well, what areyou talking about?
I drop them off, they drop,they drop the kid off and the
(44:03):
kid never showed up for practice.
So little things you know likethat that the parents don't know
that happens.
And, like you said, you know,come, sit at a practice and
watch what goes on and you knowit's a lot different than what
they come home and tell mom anddad.
Darren (44:12):
Yeah, and I think you go back to the word I used before
accountability.
As a parent, teach your son ordaughter some accountability in
terms of, hey, the struggleyou're having with your coach,
whatever sport, or your teacher,whatever class, is an
indication of the relationshipyou do or do not have as a
player with your coach or as astudent with your teacher.
(44:35):
Go, build that relationship andputting the emphasis on that
son or daughter to learn how toengage people, to learn how to
hold conversations, you know, tolearn how to question authority
, but with respect and courtesy,not just.
Rocky (44:48):
The coach is a nut job and you know in worse words, so,
darren, how can our listeners,you know, how can they buy the
book, how can they follow youand you know the podcast and you
and your son and so forth.
Darren (45:02):
Yes, thank you.
The book is available prettymuch on all outlets, so Amazon,
barnes, noble, ingramspark is apublisher.
You can purchase it throughthem as well, and I know there's
a litany of them sites thatit's available on, but I don't
remember all of them, so themain ones for sure.
Uh, you can follow me at atcoach all 88 on Instagram and on
(45:23):
um X, and then I have aLinkedIn profile If you're
interested.
It's just.
You know my name, just lookedme up.
It's pretty obvious who I am.
Uh, in that picture the podcastis Outside the Coach's Box.
It's on Spotify.
We absolutely would love andtry to engage with people as
well, to get on and listen.
We're open to any ideas becausewe'll cover just about any
(45:46):
topic.
Rocky (45:48):
Well, I'll tell you what.
This was a lot of fun.
I feel like I can sit and talkany sport with you here for a
while, and I'll tell you what.
You're more than welcome tocome on the Mohawk Valley Sports
Watch.
Here we can talk some sports,and if you guys ever need a
guest out your way to talk aboutanything football, basketball,
you name it I'm always willingto come on.
But this was great.
I purchased a book.
I have not gotten it yet, butthis was absolutely fantastic.
(46:12):
Great insight by you and I lookforward to reading the book and
can't thank you enough fortaking the time tonight with me.
Darren (46:18):
Well, rocky, thank you, and thank you very much for
buying the book and I hope youenjoy it, and I'd love your
input because I, you know, whoknows if I ever do one of these
again.
But I, you know, I'm alwayslooking for the opportunity to
improve and get better at thethings I'm doing.
So but, thank you and I, wewould love to have you on, so
we'll, we'll get that worked out.
Rocky (46:36):
Sounds good.
I appreciate it, Darren.
Have a good rest of the nightand enjoy the weekend.
Darren (46:41):
All right, Rocky, you too Be well.
Rocky (46:43):
Thank you.
Sorry, guys, I was trying toswitch in between screens there,
but, uh, hopefully enjoytonight.
Uh, darren was great.
Uh was just talking to himbefore we came on.
(47:03):
Um, live here tonight and uh,really good.
Uh, insight behind his book outof bounds.
Um, again, I'll post all thatwhere you can purchase his book,
uh, and so forth.
So so I appreciate him comingon here tonight.
I'll let you know when the nextguest will be joining me on the
Beyond the Game podcast.
Right now I'm shooting forevery couple weeks.
Right now I'm booked throughthe end of June for this show.
(47:25):
I'll let you know when we dothe next Mohawk Valley Sports
Watch.
We're looking at possibly doingone this Sunday night, but I
got to see what the guys aredoing.
I have not put that show to theside.
That show will still continueto air, as well as this one.
So I appreciate it.
I hope everybody enjoyed ittonight.
On behalf of myself and theBeyond the Game podcast and the
(47:47):
Rockpile again, follow me onYouTube, follow me on Facebook,
all the social media sites andI'm also up on Spotify,
iheartradio, apple Podcasts andany of your podcasts and
platforms and more.
So thanks again for tuning intonight.
I'll catch you again soon righthere on the Beyond the Game
(48:07):
podcast.
Have a good evening everybody.
Good evening everybody.
Welcome to another live editionhere on the Rockpile.
I'm excited.
Tonight on the Rockpile,tonight I bring you the second
episode of the Beyond the Gamepodcast Tonight.
This one has a special meaningto me, as many of you that
follow the Mohawk Valley SportsWatch high school coaches,
college coaches, nfl coaches andmore on a very important topic
(00:26):
that hits home for me, withyouth sports, parents and so
much more, and I'm excited towelcome.
He was a coach.
Author of the book Out of Bounds, darren Ault's going to join me
in just a moment.
If you have any questions forthe show tonight, you can put
them right in the comment box.
If you're following us onYouTube tonight, just make sure
you hit the subscribe buttonFacebook, twitter, linkedin, any
(00:48):
of the social media platformstonight.
I appreciate you tuning intonight for this special episode
.
So, without further ado, let mebring Darren on now with us.
Let me switch this up here.
How are you, coach?
I'm doing well, rocky.
How are you?
I'm doing great and, as you andI were just recently talking
before we came on here tonight,this one hits home for me.
(01:10):
We've had numerous discussionsabout the parents' involvement.
I've talked a lot about what Iwould say is the old school
coaches versus the coaches oftoday's game.
That I want to get into withyou.
But first, welcome to thepodcast.
Darren (01:25):
Thank you very much.
I appreciate the platform andthe opportunity to share this
conversation with you.
It is a pretty common thing,more common than most people
know, and I'm eager to share thestory with you.
Rocky (01:38):
So, darren, first give the audience tonight a little
bit of background on yourself.
I know a longtime coach.
You've coached the boys, thegirls, the high school level.
I know you spent some time incollege coaching.
But just give our audience aquick overview of yourself.
Darren (01:54):
Yeah, my pleasure.
I'm a native Californianoriginally but I was swept away
by a New Jersey girl and endedup in New Jersey for the last,
so I don't know since 1994,let's put it that way when I got
out of the Navy, and prettymuch right away well, actually,
when I was in the Navy, Istarted coaching and getting the
coaching bug.
I was working as an assistantcoach at the Naval Academy Prep
(02:16):
School in Newport, rhode Island,which is the college level that
you referred to, and we had aone-year rotation of kids
sometimes 10 recruits for Navy,sometimes one and every year was
a rebuilding year and we playedpeople like Harvard JV and
Brown JV and some of the bigprep schools like New Hampton
Prep and Main Central Institute.
So really fun basketball, butalso the challenge, like I said,
(02:38):
of having to redo every year.
Then, when I moved down to NewJersey, I started coaching
seventh and eighth grade boys.
I did that for about 12 years ata Catholic grammar school
called Holy family.
I had a wonderful time,wonderful experience building
that program and raising it tothe elevation of champions in
the leagues on multiple times.
Um, then I got into high schoolgirls coaching when a friend of
(02:59):
mine encouraged me at theCatholic high school locally
that, hey, this job's open up,why don't you go coach girls?
And I had never coached girls,it was always boys and young men
.
So I was like, okay, that'd bean interesting challenge.
And uh, I tell you what I gotinto it and I absolutely loved
it and I spent 22 years in NewJersey and the Jersey shore
conference um coaching highschool girls basketball at the
(03:20):
varsity level.
Rocky (03:25):
Yeah, I'll say this is.
I had the opportunity this yearso I was giving you a little
bit about my background.
So I was a head varsityfootball coach for a little
while at a small class D schoolhere at Sequoia High School in
Sequoia, new York.
I spent some time with my dad,who was a head varsity coach for
well over 35 years.
And then I came back here to myhometown school in Rome, free
Academy here in Rome, new York,as a modified coach.
(03:48):
But I spent some time at theyouth coach in AAU boys
basketball, which I'll get intowith that, with you here in just
a little bit.
And then this past year mydaughter, who's only nine years
old, said to me one day Dad,you've always coached, aiden,
you've never coached any girlsports.
So I got the opportunity thisyear, darren, I coached girls'
third and fourth gradebasketball and I will tell you
(04:11):
they were better than anyvarsity, any modified coach
boy's sport I've ever coached.
They listened.
It was so much better.
So I said to myself, I said tomy wife, I said I must have
missed something in my daybecause the girls were a lot
easier to coach than the boyswere.
Darren (04:27):
Yeah, you know they're gold and listen, it's.
It's a different style ofcoaching, a different way of
reception between boys and girlsand and I enjoyed the heck out
of both Um, but the girls werereally special in a lot of ways
and the biggest ways.
I always said to uh.
To people ask me, why don't youever go back to boys?
I said the girls are sponges,they want to learn, they want to
(04:48):
be taught the fundamentals,they want to.
They function better genuinelyas a team, where the boys and I
don't know if you know back inmy day it was Reggie vision
Every time Reggie Jackson hit ahome run, or ESPN and the
highlights but they get caughtup a lot in the individuality
and the ego part of the game andsometimes that can get in the
way unless you're able to breakthrough that.
(05:09):
But I absolutely love coachinggirls.
Rocky (05:12):
So, darren, you come up with the book, the topic, the
name of the book Out of Bounds,which I will say I just
purchased, so I haven't gottenit in yet to read the full book.
Yet I've read parts that I'veseen online.
Where did the name Out ofBounds come from for you?
What inspired you to write thebook?
And then the other question ishow did you arrive at the name?
Darren (05:36):
So the inspiration and first of all I have to give my
wife props because she designedthe cover of the book as well.
It's great.
It's great, thank you.
But the the inspiration camefrom when I was at currently at
modern day high school.
I was about 11 or 12 years intothat coaching experience and I
(05:56):
started to notice the couple ofyears prior to that that
engagements with parents not allof them, I mean, trust me, this
is a handful but the engagementwith parents where they started
to challenge more publicly,more openly, the coaches,
decisions around playing time,starters, etc.
The engagements became morenegative, more visceral, more
(06:18):
hateful in a job where you'retrying to, I think, collaborate
with parents in helping shapetheir daughters in this case, or
their sons if you're coachingboys to be good people through
the context of a team sport,basketball.
So I started to notice thatthat was happening more often
and, like I said, there wereactual outbursts on sidelines,
(06:41):
not just towards me, butsometimes fathers of my team
degrading girls that were onthat team playing with their
daughter very loudly, verypublicly.
The point, and I write aboutthis in the book well, one young
lady I happened to call out atimeout because I could hear it
and I could see it affecting her, melted in my arms, crying that
this father would say thatabout her.
So that became kind of the cruxor the meat of hey, there's
(07:08):
something going on here and Iwas trying to understand it.
So I took that opportunity, kindof went backwards through my
career to that point and justthought of those moments not
often, but enough to where itstuck, where there were these
kinds of engagements withparents, and see if I could put
any framework around it.
The title itself came from oneof those conversations again in
(07:28):
the book, where this was afriend of mine who I coached AAU
with and had the absolutepleasure of coaching both or two
of his daughters on my highschool team, where he thought
with his oldest daughter that Ihad given quote, unquote her job
away and we're on a phoneconversation and again, because
he was a friend, we, you know,probably got into areas that I
wouldn't do with normal parents.
But at one point he juststarted to get really angry and
(07:51):
and I said to him you're out ofbounds on this one.
And then it just kind of dawnedon me wow, that that's probably
a really good title for a book.
Rocky (07:59):
Yeah, I had, um, a friend of mine, uh, his father.
His father is one of thewinningest basketball coaches
here in New York State and Iremember he used to tell us and
he's won I think it was twostate championships.
This way coached at a smallclass, d school.
Here we go AA, a, b, c and D,so small school and he used to
say every year he would getvoted in by one vote at the
(08:22):
board meetings to come back andcoach.
And here's a guy that won moregames than anybody but it was
never enough, I feel like, forus coaches and I still consider
myself a coach, but us coaches,even when you're winning, it was
never good enough for parents.
When you're losing, they wantto throw you out.
(08:43):
And one thing and I think youtalked about this on another
podcast and I've talked aboutthis there's a lot of good
athletes in our hometown hereand a lot of good athletes
across the Mohawk Valley where Ilive and I say this all the
time and I don't downgrade anykid because if you have the
opportunity, darren and youcould play at like a division,
three level division, twodivision one junior college.
(09:03):
There's a lot of good collegesout there that you can play
competitively and it's goodbasketball.
Right, in your case, you were abasketball coach.
But I feel like the parentsthink that, well, my kid's going
to be the next stud player atDuke or they're going to be the
next great football player atOhio State.
The percentages of thathappening are so small.
Right, I think it's like 1% or2% of the kids that actually can
(09:24):
play at the professional level,but I feel like that's kind of
taken over with all these AUtournaments that go on.
You have all these privatetrainers now that go on.
Do you agree with that?
Do you think that was one ofthe big issues with parents?
Darren (09:37):
I definitely think it's in the mix of what had started
to elevate these engagements.
Right, you have certainly a lotof people under the hopeful eye
that, hey, I can go get adivision one scholarship, or my
son or daughter can, and, toyour point, even have ambitions
of going to play pro, and formen, that is about 1.3% of
(09:59):
people who do that, and forwomen it's actually less than 1%
.
For basketball and andprofessional sports in general,
unless you want to be, I thinkit was ice hockey, there was
actually the best odds at around33% for men and for women, but
every other sport that there'sonly so many people that can
continue to elevate or have theskill sets or the mental
(10:20):
capacity because the game isjust as much mental as it is
physical to combine all thosethings together to elevate to
the point of being aprofessional.
But parents do get lost in thatwash.
Um, the challenges around aauand the cost.
The cost.
Since I was an aau coach, costhas gotten ridiculous, not just
in what you have to pay to be ona team, but the, the, you know
(10:42):
the?
Um, the shoes, and sometimes,if you're lucky enough, you're
sponsored um, and which makes ita business kind of entity uh to
get into these events is like$90 for for uh for a weekend
showcase.
You know, it's just, it'sridiculous and it's really
taking the emphasis and thefocus off of the game and the
joy and the passion behind itand learning how to be better as
(11:03):
an individual but, mostimportantly, in that team
construct.
Rocky (11:08):
Yeah, I was really fortunate enough.
I played for a lot of oldschool coaches here locally and
in my hometown.
You know we were really knownfor football when I played, and
for a long time.
But I grew up.
What I would say is the oldschool coaches that had no
problem getting in your face.
They were very vocal, right,they yelled, but as us players
(11:31):
back in the day and I'm talkingprobably like in your 80s, 90s,
maybe the early 2000s, where itwas just part of it we respected
those coaches.
And I feel like nowadays, likeif you get a coach that gets on
a player, you know at some pointyou're going to get a call from
the athletic director.
Let's say, hey, you know,joey's mom called in and said
(11:52):
you know you were yelling at himin practice and you're not
playing him.
So I feel like today'sgeneration and some of my
buddies are coaches are going toyell at me when I say this.
I think they're soft, like.
I think they're soft and Ithink they've kind of changed
their style because they're soworried that they're soft, like
I think they're soft and I thinkthey've kind of changed their
style because they're so worriedthat they're going to get
called in and, who knows, maybethey're going to get fired as a
coach because they were tootough.
(12:13):
Would you agree with that?
Nowadays versus the older days?
Darren (12:17):
Well, I do think there's a lot more looking over your
shoulder as to how youadminister coaching today, which
is a shame, because if, firstof all, when you're at a game
and you're hearing a coachbarking out instructions or
elevating their voice so thatthey can be heard over the crowd
of people and the cheerleadersand everything else that's going
on in the gym so that they canbe heard to their players, yeah,
(12:40):
it can sound like yelling, itcan sound like screaming if you
want, but the important partthere is to listen to the
content of what they're saying,not the volume at which they're
saying it.
Right, and so that can be kindof misconstrued they.
What people also don't get theopportunity to see is how that
relationship is built throughpractice.
You know the, the engagement,the, the buildup, the, the
(13:02):
challenge of.
I always coach my kids.
You know, push yourself to failwhen we're doing drills.
I want you to be working sohard that you're going to lose
control of that basketball, andthen I don't want you to drop
your head.
I want you to go, race acrossthe court wherever it is, pick
it up and start over again.
But you had mentioned thegeneration of coaches.
I think it's the currentgeneration of parents that are
(13:24):
afraid of holding their childrenaccountable to those kinds of
challenges, to failing toactually allowing them to fail
and learn from those failures,to coach in their home to
elevate their energy and effortand have expectations out of
them that they will carry thatto things they do outside the
home, and so I think it's kindof a mushing of those two things
(13:47):
.
Rocky (13:48):
Yeah, and you know, what I think is even crazy now today
is you have we have one not toofar from here, but there's a
couple indoor sports complex andI was a three-sport athlete.
I was basketball, baseball andfootball and always found time
to whether it was getting aweight room and get some extra
shots up for basketball.
And it's like nowadays I feellike the three sport athlete is
(14:09):
gone.
I feel like nowadays, like evenwhen I'm seeing with my own son
, if you don't play basketballall year round come basketball
season, you know you might getpassed up because somebody might
be doing it all year round.
What's your thoughts on?
Like the three sport athlete,you know, and nowadays you've
got some kids that are sportspecific.
Darren (14:29):
I prefer the multiple sport athlete to you know, just
in terms of avoiding repetitivestress injuries, because they're
testing their muscles and thesupporting tissues and ligaments
and tendons in different ways.
They're not constantly puttingthe same kind of stress on it,
ligaments and tendons indifferent ways, they're not
constantly putting the same kindof stress on it.
They're learning differentelements of the game that do
translate to basketball or toother sports.
(14:49):
You know angles on the court,advancing to position yourself
for passing or vision to whereyou can engage a teammate when
you have the basketball.
Some of my best basketballplayers have been soccer players
first, as a matter of fact, atmy last stint at Holmdel High
School, one of my favoriteplayers I know we're not
supposed to have favorites, butevery coach does One of my
(15:12):
favorite players during theCOVID year, as we were
navigating, you know, coming outof COVID, but as we navigated
that year coming out, sheactually had the opportunity to
and did letter in five differentsports for the high school and
beyond, the playing and thegrowth and development as an
individual and the understandingof teamwork which is going to
transcend sports into everythingyou do in life.
Rocky (15:33):
Beyond that, she was supporting her school and I
think that's magnificent yeah, Ifeel like as, as us coaches
know, you have a lot ofincidents where and I can count
on one hand of what makes memost proud today is even with my
dad, who's older than I am.
(15:54):
But when I hear people stillcall him coach, they still come
up to me and still call me coachand I'm talking from years ago
10, 15 years ago when I coachedat a couple of schools.
The meaning coach to you, whatdoes it mean to you when you
hear some of your former playersstill say, hey, coach, thanks
for that life lesson that youtaught me when you were coach,
(16:15):
because I know you talk aboutsome of that in your book.
Darren (16:17):
Yeah, it's titles excuse me, titles the wrong word but
it's absolutely anacknowledgement of respect and
relationship, friendship to apoint that has built this
chemistry from years ago.
You know, I've had 40,41-year-old men who come to me
(16:38):
today and say Coach, what Ilearned as a father, as a man,
came from you.
When I played for you in seventhand eighth grade, I had one
young man told me he wanted togo and join the Navy, but his
mother wouldn't let him do itand it was because of what he
saw in the values that I showedin practice and he wanted to
replicate those, you know, youngladies who are now adults,
(17:03):
married, have children, and they, just, you know, scream from
across the shopping center hey,coach, you know, and run up and
give you a hug.
And that is the greatest reward,those relationships that are
built in that player-coachrelationship and the ones that
are not violated, certainly, bythese intrusive parent
(17:23):
circumstances.
But even those, even thehardest one of those where there
was that conflict, even thoseare endearing relationships that
hold today.
And so, as a coach, you know, Ididn't get paid much when I was
in high school coaching, and Ididn't want it, I would coach
for free and most of my time atthe, at the naval academy prep
(17:44):
school and in seventh and eighthgrade boys, was all volunteer,
wasn't getting paid anything,and I would have continued to do
that because it was abouthelping develop these young men
and women morally, mentally andphysically to be better people.
Rocky (17:56):
And I know, darren, you talk about in the book where you
had you had the incident thatled you to why you're not
coaching anymore, and I want toask like is there any regrets
that you have of how it washandled?
And one of the things I knowyou've talked about in some of
your other podcasts is the roleadministrators play, and we can
(18:16):
get into that in a little bit aswell, because I think
administrators now cater toparents more now than they ever
did.
But is there anything that,when you look back on what
happened, would you have doneanything different?
Darren (18:30):
No, because to this day, I'm still not even sure what I
did, so I can't say that I wouldhave done anything different.
However, if there had been aclear delineation of, hey, this
was being perceived or felt thatit was a violation of some kind
or another, then I wouldcertainly have looked at it and
tried to understand it and triedto modify it.
(18:52):
Unfortunately, I was nevergiven that opportunity.
The way I coached was a veryloving and engaged coach.
I wanted the best for my kids,but I also want to let them know
fairly they're going to bechallenged.
I have expectations for you,your teammates have expectations
for you, and we are ultimatelyaccountable to each other.
You know to be the best team wecan be, so the respect was
(19:21):
always there, and so if therewas something that I did wrong,
I would have loved theopportunity for it to be
identified and to correct it,which I think in any walk of
life, anybody would appreciatethat opportunity.
Rocky (19:31):
I say this all the time and I'll stand by this, but I
think that's one of the reasonstoday.
So I'm not a teacher, soteachers in this area always
have the priority.
So like if a teacher applies toa coaching job and I apply to a
coaching job, some schools willhire the teacher over the one
that's not a teacher.
Now some schools do not go bythat.
(19:51):
Where I was hired for my firstcoaching job, there were
teachers that were interestedbut I was hired.
So each school has theirdifferent policies.
I will stand to this day that Ithink coaches the good coaches
walk a really, really thin line,because if you do make a
mistake or you get on a kid,like I said earlier, the way the
(20:14):
administrators have handled alot of coaches, I think is a
reason why, to this day, a lotof those good coaches don't
apply for jobs anymore.
They don't want to coachbecause they don't want to have
to deal with situations likewhat you're talking about and
have to deal with stuff becauseI feel like they're guilty no
matter what.
Like what happened to the dayswhere an athletic director can
(20:36):
pull you in, sit down with witha parent and yourself and say,
let's talk about it.
What happened?
I feel like that's gone away.
Darren (20:44):
Well, I think in order to have any of those kinds of
meaningful conversations aroundconflict or perceived conflict,
uh, you have to have somebody tolead through that, especially
if they're playing the role ofarbitrator or neutral party.
Unfortunately, I don't thinkthat exists in a lot of schools
today and it certainly did notexist in Holmdel High School at
(21:05):
the time when I was incorrectlysuspended and then was afforded
no due process, so, um, butthere was an absolute failure of
leadership or just a lack ofdesire to lead in this perceived
conflict that and I said it inthe book and you probably heard
on a couple of podcasts that ifsomebody had stepped up to be
(21:27):
that leader, to be thatrepresentative of both parties,
a neutral party, this could havebeen resolved in a day.
Instead, it dragged out for 40days and ultimately cost me my
coaching career that season,certainly, which was painful
enough but made me a littleleery of getting back involved
in youth sports Because, likeyou, I didn't work in a school.
(21:50):
I don't work in a school.
I never have worked in a schoolother than the Naval Academy
prep school, because that was myassignment coming out of Naval
Academy at one point.
But I did.
I had my job, my regular job,and oftentimes would take half a
vacation day to be on the buswith the girls to go to a
basketball game.
You know, you know that.
You know the drill and I lovedit.
I had no regrets about that.
(22:11):
Would do that all I could, um.
But at the same time I'm notafforded or people like us who
coach from that perspective arenot afforded any of the safety
and the support that a unionteacher would get in school what
?
Rocky (22:24):
what are your thoughts on the pressure now?
I feel like there's morepressure now on athletes than
what there was years ago.
And again I just my son's aseventh grader playing modified
baseball right now and I look atnow like in college with this
NIL basically it's professionalsports.
The colleges now really aren'trecruiting the high school kids
anymore because they're gettingkids in the transfer portal,
(22:47):
which makes it even more harderon the young kids, which is more
stressful to the young kids,and I did a podcast on mental
health because I think that'sgotten out of hand nowadays too.
But do you think there's morepressure now on these young kids
than what there were years ago?
Darren (23:03):
Yeah, I don't think there's any question about that,
just because of the way collegesports or collegiate athletics,
has become a business.
It always has been a business.
It hasn't been very honestabout that, but it has been a
business, but even more so nowthat it's out in the open, with
NIL and the wild, wild west,that the portal has created
(23:23):
beyond the intent of giving acollegiate athlete the
opportunity to.
Hey, the coach who recruited meis gone.
He was a big reason, or she wasthe big reason I came to this
campus.
Uh, I'd like to go somewhereelse.
That has completely blown up.
And you bring up a great point,rocky, that, um, you know that
the kids that are in high schoollooking to get some of these
scholarship positions are nowsecondary and even sometimes
(23:46):
tertiary to that decisionbecause of the portal kids,
because of junior college kids.
And if I'm a college coach insome regard, why wouldn't I go
look at a more seasoned playerfirst to fill my any holes I
have in my roster, as opposed tobringing in a younger person
who's going to need that ramp upperiod?
Rocky (24:06):
What were some of the challenges right right in your
book?
Do you have any any specificparts of the book that that
stands out to you?
That was challenging to write.
Yeah, it was probably allchallenging, right, but you have
so many good stories in there,I'm sure Well you know there's a
couple layers to that onion.
Darren (24:24):
So first of all, I wanted the book.
I wanted to get the message,the messages, the lessons from
the book out in a way that itdidn't feel like I was just
browbeaten people about thetoxicity of sports.
Yes, it has a lot to do withthat and yes, it's through the
lens of basketball.
But I think a lot of theconversation that I offer and I
leave it really to the reader tokind of pull that out in from
(24:45):
their experiences but a lot ofwhat I offer is beyond sports,
beyond the game of basketball.
And so the difficult part,first of all, was making sure I
had that balance.
And you know I offer a lot ofstories in there that are fun,
that are about resilience, thatare about, you know,
accomplishment for the youngplayers through my interactions
(25:08):
with them around those morenegative stories, you know.
So I tried to provide thatbalance and that was a little
tricky.
Staying on target was trickybecause after 33 years of
coaching I got a lot of things Icould share and the book would
have been like 3,000 pages longand nobody would have bought it.
But so trying to make sure Istayed focused on what the
overarching theme was, and thenthe biggest complexity, I think,
(25:32):
of the challenge was theemotional aspect of it, because,
um, some of the more, uh,visceral meetings or engagements
(25:56):
, um, that are laid out prettywell in the book, um, especially
the last, you know my fouryears at at home, though, and
the way that that ended sounexpectedly and so so wrongly,
um, and having to relive thatagain after having just gotten
to a point where I kind ofwasn't thinking about it as much
, but it was.
So it was so much of the meatof, um, or the showcase really
(26:19):
of, of where that parentalinfluence, that negative
influence, was just so over thetop.
Rocky (26:27):
Darren, we were talking before we came on just for a few
minutes and, uh, you talked alittle bit about you get the.
You get the opportunity to toto do a podcast with your son.
Yeah, I had the.
I had the opportunity.
To this day I still say it'sthe best.
Best time of my life that I hadin coaching was I got the
opportunity.
I was assistant coach for mydad and then my dad retired and
(26:49):
then I got him out of retirementwhen I got my first head job to
be one of my assistants.
So I had the opportunity tocoach with my dad, which was
awesome.
Some challenging times, youknow, arguing a little bit
behind the scenes, but at theend of the day it was great.
Talk to us a little bit aboutthe podcast you host with your
son and the name of it and whattype of show is it.
Darren (27:11):
So the name of it is Outside the Coach's Box and it's
on Spotify and on YouTube too,not as a channel, but there are
episodes out there and it was myson's idea.
He came to me one day a coupleof years ago, and probably three
or four now, and said hey, dad,why don't we do a podcast?
And my first instinct, beingGeneration X, was who wants to
(27:32):
listen to me talk about anything?
But he said you know, dad, wetalk about sports all the time
on the, on the couch, and we gothrough topics, you know, not
just the, the top scorers andthat kind of thing, but talk
about some of the challenge,like we just did around nil, or
um, you know, is aaron rogersgoing to be on the steelers, why
, or why not?
Those kind of things.
And so ultimately he worked mefor a couple of years, punched
(27:54):
me like a punching bag until Ifinally committed to it and, um,
it's been great.
He's, he does a really good jobwith it.
Uh, he's kind of the creator.
He is the creator and and theum, you know the uh, he runs the
studio and does all thepublication stuff.
And then I tease him.
I tease him by saying I'm thetalent, but it's really his
(28:15):
talent that has allowed us to doit.
He's very good at networking.
We've had some wonderful guests.
Tim Kapstra, the voice of theNets, was on our podcast.
Coach Brian Newberry from NavyFootball was on our podcast.
We've had an NFL official ontwice and now he's on a
recurring bit with us around,you know, right after the
Superbowl, just talking aboutyeah.
(28:37):
And so we've had Zoe Brooksfrom the NC state, wolf Wolf
pack girls basketball or women'sbasketball.
She was a local fan favoritefrom St John Vianney high school
but you know we got her onafter she went to NC state and,
yeah, just a great experience.
And it I think it's alsosomething that was born out of
basketball, my coaching career,because I did have the wonderful
(28:59):
opportunity to coach all threeof my kids, a son and two
daughters in basketball, mygirls from AAU through high
school.
So there's six to eight yearsat times where we were together
an awful lot, you know, andworking through the dynamics of
hey, I'm your dad, I love youvery much, but I'm your coach
when I'm inside these lines andthere's a little bit of a
(29:21):
dynamic.
Still, love you very much, butthere, you know, there's
different expectations,different challenges and we have
to be able to be on the samepage.
And then, ultimately, to whatyou said with your father.
I definitely had theopportunity at Holmdel High
School to coach with my son hewas my assistant coach there and
then, on the AAU circuit, withmy oldest daughter.
She and I coached together andthen the last stint she was
(29:42):
actually the head coach and Iwas the assistant trying to pass
the torch, and it was a lot offun, a lot of fun.
Rocky (29:47):
Yeah, I got to give my dad some credit because my dad
was one of the old schoolcoaches that I talked about
earlier with you.
But when I came, when Igraduated from college and I
came on with him, I'd like tosay my dad was, in football
terms, line up in the Iformation run the ball between
the tackles and I came, I cameon and said we're gonna throw
the ball around a little bit andwe got one game.
(30:08):
He said if it, if it wasn't foryou, he goes.
We might have been throwing theball 30 times a game because he
goes.
I didn't throw that in my wholeentire career coaching so he
was able to adapt.
Darren (30:17):
So it was fun having dad around, yeah that fresh
perspective that people offertoo, and the combination, the
chemistry between coaches isreally, really important.
And the young lady who I hiredwho's now we consider a part of
the family who I hired as myfirst assistant at Homedale High
School.
We sat, the interview wassupposed to be like 20 minutes.
We sat for an hour and a halftalking about basketball and
(30:40):
offenses and things that she'sdone, and she was only, you know
, in her early twenties at thetime and I was a sponge I wanted
to learn more about.
You know, what can I do totweak my coaching style or my
game, the way I teach the kids?
That might be better fortoday's game and I think a lot
of coaches lose out on thatopportunity, you know.
Rocky (31:00):
Darren, one thing I wanted to ask you a little bit
about, too, was you know,nowadays you know we're doing a
show like this, but all thesesocial media channels that are
out there.
Now you've got these cellphones that all have cameras and
I'm trying to go back to when II played if I would have had
the phone that I have now the,the apple phone or the droids
and you can get on social media.
How much in today's game hasthat impacted too with with
(31:23):
parents, how they can interactnow with with coaches and and
players?
I feel like now even like inyou watch these guys on the NBA.
Some of them are tweeting onthe bench during these games,
but social media has taken over.
Darren (31:36):
It has.
It's definitely part of theproblem and, listen, it's a
great tool in a lot of respectsas well and, like anything else,
you have to be able to dothings in balance.
But certainly, I mean, Iremember not that long ago,
girls would bring their phonesinto practice and have them on
the bench next to their gear andevery water break they'd go to
their phone.
First it was a water break andthey would go to their phone and
(31:59):
and then that would advancewith with social media that
they'd start taking selfiesduring practice.
So I, you know, I I tried toadapt it and say, okay, girls,
listen, I get it, but duringpractice you put the phone in
the bag.
I do not want to see it and ifI do, we're going to be doing
some exercises right.
And then one girl tried tooutsmart me.
She'd get the Apple watch and Inoticed she kept looking down
at her watch during practice.
So that was the next iterationof OK, we've got to manage this.
But I think the the worst partabout social media is how much
(32:24):
of it is driven around promotingself.
Even in what we would considersome individual sports, there is
a team element to it, and ifall you're worried about is
promoting self or getting yoursor getting your attention, then
you're missing the whole pictureand the time that you're
spending with your face in thatphone.
(32:45):
You're missing an opportunityto just get to know a different
teammate that you know.
Maybe a sophomore came up whoyou didn't get to play with last
year because she's on JV.
Rocky (32:59):
Well, let me get to learn a little bit more about her.
Darren.
What would be the message forfor people listening tonight,
and for some that'll listen onthe on the playback, um, or
people to read your book?
What would be the message you'dwant to relate to the audience
tonight?
Darren (33:09):
yeah, I think the biggest thing.
You know, I was taught at avery young age and tried to
bring it into and then actually,because of some of my family
background, you know, my, myparents divorced when I was
three.
But the saying around it takesa village to raise a child
actually resonated with mebecause there were times where
my uncle was my, myauthoritarian.
You know, if I ever crossed mymother she would call my uncle
(33:32):
Chuck.
Oh, I knew at that point I'dgone too far, but he was also
one of my best coaches, one ofmy best consults in life and in
meanings of life.
And then the value of teachers.
I could go through a long listof teachers that that I just
truly appreciated and and and umwere endeared to them in the
way that they taught and the waythey got their message across.
(33:53):
And same with coaches.
And I think a lot of timesparents lose that focus.
Today, to be a parent today iseven more complex because both
parents have to work and youknow, to make ends meet and the
kids are home alone a lot.
So to have that extra set ofeyes, that extra voice in their
head which, again, it's not allcoaches, it's not all teachers,
(34:14):
but I would say most of them arefocused on how do we help make
this child a better person, getthem ready for what comes next.
So that would really be themessage is to remember that
you're not in it alone as aparent.
It does take a village to raisea child and build those
relationships around trust andrespect.
Rocky (34:36):
Yeah, and Darren, you just talked a little bit about
it, but I wanted to ask you youknow, even in the business world
today, I still I tell my peopleat work I'm still a coach At
work, they call me coach.
I'm the VP of a bus company andwhether you're on a playing
field, a court or whatever itmay be, once a coach, always a
coach.
And you know, growing up I hadsome mentors that helped me
(34:56):
along the way, even in the inthe business field.
Who are some mentors for you,whether it be in the business
field, the coaching aspect as aplayer, who are some of your
mentors growing up?
Darren (35:07):
Well, I definitely had some teachers that I, I, uh, I
loved and respected quite a bit,and a lot of times they were
the harder ones, you know.
They were the ones that kept meon track or pushed my my limits
to get the most out of me.
I remember my Spanish andEnglish teacher in my freshman
and sophomore year in highschool Huayrica High School in
Northern California.
(35:27):
It was Doña Lucia Cardosa, youknow, and she came from Spain.
She was a Spanish immigrantfrom the time where Franco was
the dictator and fled Spain andcame to America and she was both
my Spanish and my Englishteacher.
So imagine that.
But you know, she was great andso impactful to my youth that
(35:48):
when I went off to the NavalAcademy, I would often, like you
know, once every three months,I'd send her a letter just
letting her know how I'm doingand she would write me back.
You know, the unfortunate partwas it started off all in
Spanish but by the time I gotaway from Spanish class it
became kind of partially Spanish, partially English.
Some great coaches along thelines you know, in basketball I
(36:11):
had Mr Sly and Mr Pontoni inback-to-back years, seventh and
eighth grade year who totallydifferent kinds of coaches, but
very impactful and on thenot-so-good way.
I had a couple coaches early inhigh school that you know.
I liked them, they were greatpeople, I had a lot of respect
for them.
I just didn't like the way theymanaged the game and I learned
from them and I learned fromthem.
(36:32):
The coach I worked with TomMarriott at the Naval Academy
Prep School.
He was a very big influence inme and you know that was my
first stint in coaching.
So moving from being a playerto a coach and being able to
view the game in a totallydifferent way, I mean I wish I
could have played collegebasketball after having been a
coach.
You know, you just see andunderstand the game in such a
(36:55):
different way and certainly inin in my corporate world, my
corporate experiences aftergetting out of the navy.
There was a gentleman who hiredme out of the navy who was a 59
grad from the academy howardberkowitz.
I was an 88 grad.
He gave me my first opportunityto go to work and just his
leadership, the way he would.
He would walk around thebuilding and talk to every.
(37:16):
He knew everything.
He knew your, your wife's name,your kid's names, their ages,
and he would stop with a cup ofcoffee in his hand and just go
talk to every single person, getto know them as people, not
just his employees, um, and thengo out to the warehouse and do
the same guys for you know, thesame for our operational team
and just phenomenal example ofleadership by example.
And and uh, getting to knowyour folks, uh, and in my
(37:38):
current job I just have awonderful leadership team at
Shaw industries that you knowyou could pick the.
They're all great, but youcould pick little pieces of gold
from each one of them and kindof, um, frankenstein yourself
into being a pretty good leader.
Rocky (37:58):
So the, the, the coach Darren of old, old, and we'll
say the coach darren.
Now what's?
Darren (38:01):
different.
What's changed?
Uh, a lot of self-improvement.
You know, there there was, uh,when I first got into coaching I
would say I was kind of a bitof a hot head.
Um, all for the right reasons,like to protect my kids to, you
know, get caught up in theemotion of the game, get caught
up in the bad call or whateverit is, and just kind of really
intense around that competition.
But then I would start toevolve and, under, you know,
(38:24):
learn how to manage officials inthe game and build
relationships with them, becausethey're important to it as well
, you know, help the playersunderstand more about themselves
.
So and this was a real strugglewith the girls in particular
that they would come in and justdon't have the level of
confidence, self-confidence thatboys do, and sometimes boys
(38:46):
have too much of it, anabundance of self-confidence.
But to be able to help work themthrough the psychology of the
game, you know Michael Jordantalked about it a lot of times.
He's known to hit X amount ofgame-winning shots, but nobody
talks about the ones that hemissed and there's a great
poster out there somewhere thatsays how he missed 9,000 shots
(39:07):
and he just kept working throughthose failures where a lot of
kids today, because of thepressures that you mentioned
previously, are hung on everysingle moment as opposed to, and
when there is failure in thatmoment, they get so absorbed by
it that they become almostineffective in everything else
they do and oftentimes will findtheir way to the bench not
(39:28):
because they did something wrongbut because they've taken
themselves out of the game.
And so to help players workthrough that and understand the
concept of next sequence, youknow, in a game which a good
buddy of mine had taught meduring the AAU days, you know
think about the next event.
No matter what happens in theone, good or bad, what's the
next event?
How can you impact the nextthing?
(39:49):
So next sequence became thatkind of mantra as I got older
and more experienced in coachingwith the kids and helping them
elevate beyond just thatparticular moment.
Rocky (40:00):
And one of the last things I wanted to ask you about
for some of the young coachesout there that will be listening
here tonight and on theplayback what would be some of
your advice to them that arelooking to get into coaching,
knowing how much tougher it isnow than what it was, you know,
years ago, having to deal withthe parents?
Darren (40:18):
Yeah, you know that's.
That's an interesting dynamic,because if it's about getting
into coaching, if you have thatpassion to to work with young
people and help them realize thepotential that's within them,
and then the best part about itis taking those individuals and
having them actually achievesomething as a team.
And it's taking thoseindividuals and having them
actually achieve something as ateam.
Go for it.
There is no greater reward, nogreater engagement than being
(40:42):
able to and to your point.
You said you know you still doit in work and so do I.
But there is no greaterconnection than being able to
help somebody see the lightaround their ability to do
something and then having themcontinue to mature and graduate
to those next steps.
So I would say, from thatcomponent, go for it, but go for
it with eyes wide open, becauseit is.
(41:07):
It is tense, it is a lot morenegative, it is a lot more, much
more of a struggle in thatdynamic between parent and coach
today than I've ever seen it.
You know to where it's not justaround challenging you and your
capabilities or looking to getrid of you because you, you know
Susie doesn't quite get enoughplaying time, but they don't see
(41:29):
how she practices, or thatshe's always running to the
bench to get on her phone, andyou know those kinds of things
that we talked about.
So be wide open and the biggestmessage I would say to both
parent and coach in thatrelationship is is give each
other some grace.
When you're, when you're inthese moments of a as a parent
as to challenging or asking why,well, think about where that
(41:52):
coach is coming from in theirperspective.
They're seeing your son ordaughter every day.
In that particular context.
You are not right.
It would be almost like youknow me as a coach, coming into
your dinner table I'm trying totell you how to parent your
child.
Tell that boy to get his elbowsoff the table or whatever it is
.
And then vice versa, as as acoach, when a player and when a
(42:13):
parent does come hot, don't justdismiss them with all right you
know I don't want to talk aboutthis or I don't want to talk
about that but give them thegrace to understand that maybe,
maybe you know their child had abad game or the team had a bad
game and it's just not a goodtime to talk about these things.
But be willing to have thosethose crucial conversations
around that and then for both,ultimately around the player.
(42:41):
That that's where the biggestamount of grace needs to be
applied, because kids put a lotof pressures on themselves.
I talk about in the book, aboutthe 24 hour rule.
Like you know, my wife waswonderful, but she would always
start to coach the kids rightafter they got out of a game and
I was like, oh my God, this carride is going to be horrible,
you know.
But the worst thing I think youcan do as a parent or a coach
is to harp on that moment likejust to keep reliving it.
They know what they did wrongor what.
You know what the failures were, or even if in an ugly wind, it
(43:05):
wasn't quite as good as itshould have been.
So give them the grace to kindof work through it first and
most kids, I think, will come toyou and say hey, what do you
think about my defense?
Or you know that kind of thing.
Rocky (43:16):
And I remember I had some parents waiting for me in a
parking lot on a Friday night,you know, after a game and the
parents meeting before the yearstarted.
I'd say, listen, I don't cometo your workplace.
All I ask is when the game isover and we played on Friday
nights is, you know, give me theweekend, a Monday, before
practice or after practice, ifyou want to come in and talk to
me, and you know anything likethat.
But the parents that would waitfor you to park a lot or, you
(43:39):
know, after a game.
And I was like, oh, just justjust give me the benefit of the
doubt.
Let me talk to your son first,if your son has a problem why
they're not playing.
And I remember I had a parentcome to me one time and say you
one time and say, you know, whyis my kid not playing?
And I said, well, your kidhasn't been to practice all week
.
And they said, well, what areyou talking about?
I drop them off, they drop,they drop the kid off and the
(44:03):
kid never showed up for practice.
So little things you know likethat that the parents don't know
that happens.
And, like you said, you know,come, sit at a practice and
watch what goes on and you knowit's a lot different than what
they come home and tell mom anddad.
Darren (44:12):
Yeah, and I think you go back to the word I used before
accountability.
As a parent, teach your son ordaughter some accountability in
terms of, hey, the struggleyou're having with your coach,
whatever sport, or your teacher,whatever class, is an
indication of the relationshipyou do or do not have as a
player with your coach or as astudent with your teacher.
(44:35):
Go, build that relationship andputting the emphasis on that
son or daughter to learn how toengage people, to learn how to
hold conversations, you know, tolearn how to question authority
, but with respect and courtesy,not just.
Rocky (44:48):
The coach is a nut job and you know in worse words, so,
darren, how can our listeners,you know, how can they buy the
book, how can they follow youand you know the podcast and you
and your son and so forth.
Darren (45:02):
Yes, thank you.
The book is available prettymuch on all outlets, so Amazon,
barnes, noble, ingramspark is apublisher.
You can purchase it throughthem as well, and I know there's
a litany of them sites thatit's available on, but I don't
remember all of them, so themain ones for sure.
Uh, you can follow me at atcoach all 88 on Instagram and on
(45:23):
um X, and then I have aLinkedIn profile If you're
interested.
It's just.
You know my name, just lookedme up.
It's pretty obvious who I am.
Uh, in that picture the podcastis Outside the Coach's Box.
It's on Spotify.
We absolutely would love andtry to engage with people as
well, to get on and listen.
We're open to any ideas becausewe'll cover just about any
(45:46):
topic.
Rocky (45:48):
Well, I'll tell you what.
This was a lot of fun.
I feel like I can sit and talkany sport with you here for a
while, and I'll tell you what.
You're more than welcome tocome on the Mohawk Valley Sports
Watch.
Here we can talk some sports,and if you guys ever need a
guest out your way to talk aboutanything football, basketball,
you name it I'm always willingto come on.
But this was great.
I purchased a book.
I have not gotten it yet, butthis was absolutely fantastic.
(46:12):
Great insight by you and I lookforward to reading the book and
can't thank you enough fortaking the time tonight with me.
Darren (46:18):
Well, rocky, thank you, and thank you very much for
buying the book and I hope youenjoy it, and I'd love your
input because I, you know, whoknows if I ever do one of these
again.
But I, you know, I'm alwayslooking for the opportunity to
improve and get better at thethings I'm doing.
So but, thank you and I, wewould love to have you on, so
we'll, we'll get that worked out.
Rocky (46:36):
Sounds good.
I appreciate it, Darren.
Have a good rest of the nightand enjoy the weekend.
Darren (46:41):
All right, Rocky, you too Be well.
Rocky (46:43):
Thank you.
Sorry, guys, I was trying toswitch in between screens there,
but, uh, hopefully enjoytonight.
Uh, darren was great.
Uh was just talking to himbefore we came on.
(47:03):
Um, live here tonight and uh,really good.
Uh, insight behind his book outof bounds.
Um, again, I'll post all thatwhere you can purchase his book,
uh, and so forth.
So so I appreciate him comingon here tonight.
I'll let you know when the nextguest will be joining me on the
Beyond the Game podcast.
Right now I'm shooting forevery couple weeks.
Right now I'm booked throughthe end of June for this show.
(47:25):
I'll let you know when we dothe next Mohawk Valley Sports
Watch.
We're looking at possibly doingone this Sunday night, but I
got to see what the guys aredoing.
I have not put that show to theside.
That show will still continueto air, as well as this one.
So I appreciate it.
I hope everybody enjoyed ittonight.
On behalf of myself and theBeyond the Game podcast and the
(47:47):
Rockpile again, follow me onYouTube, follow me on Facebook,
all the social media sites andI'm also up on Spotify,
iheartradio, apple Podcasts andany of your podcasts and
platforms and more.
So thanks again for tuning intonight.
I'll catch you again soon righthere on the Beyond the Game
(48:07):
podcast.
Have a good evening everybody.
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