April 22, 2025 • 38 mins
Ed Wynn, the legendary legal architect behind rent-to-own's regulatory framework, shares his extraordinary four-decade journey protecting an industry that many lawmakers never fully understood. Fresh into retirement after serving as APRO's legal counsel since its inception, Wynn offers unprecedented insights into how a collection of rental dealers transformed into a sophisticated national organization.
The conversation reveals fascinating origin stories, including how APRO literally began in Wynn's law office with just one secretary. We explore the delicate dance of state-level legislation where, in exchange for accepting regulation and disclosure requirements, the industry secured crucial protection from being recharacterized as credit sales. Wynn walks us through multiple attempts to establish federal legislation—coming tantalizingly close in both 1983 and 2001—while explaining why many Republican lawmakers surprisingly cautioned against federal oversight.
Perhaps most compelling is Wynn's candid discussion of rental theft prosecution, where he shares unconventional but effective strategies for working with reluctant district attorneys. "Go to the DA's website," Wynn advises, "find the law firm that made the largest contributions to his last election, hire somebody from that firm, and get a meeting." This pragmatic approach to political realities perfectly illustrates how Wynn navigated complex challenges throughout his career.
As virtual rent-to-own emerges as the industry's growth frontier, Wynn provides critical context about recent legal victories that affirm the "no obligation" foundation of these transactions. His assessment of today's legal climate and thoughts on the incoming administration offer valuable perspective for anyone connected to rental businesses.
Whether you're a rental operator seeking to understand your industry's legal foundations or simply fascinated by how specialized industries navigate regulatory challenges, this conversation offers rare wisdom from someone who truly shaped an entire business sector. Subscribe now to hear more industry insights from leaders who've been in the trenches!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hello everybody, welcome to the RTO Show podcast.
I'm your host, pete Chow, andtoday we're talking to Ed Wynn,
the newly retired legal counselfor APRO, who just as of
February, decided to take a stepback and retire after 40 long
years in the rental own industry.
Thank God that he's been aroundhere that long, because Lord
knows that we've needed it.
He's been instrumental ingetting things done, and I mean
(00:31):
starting from beginning, ed.
Where did APRO start?
I mean, it was absolutelyalmost nothing when you started,
or nothing when you started,and then you helped it come
along from its infancy all theway to where it is now.
Where did you start so?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
the first AgPro office was in my law office.
I hired a secretary On we went.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
So when you say FRDA, right, the Furniture
Rent-A-Dealer Association andthat wasn't the RDAs that we
normally speak of, because wetalk about Rent-A-Dealer
Association, as in the FloridaRent-A-Dealer Association, the
Missouri association, themissouri renter dealer
association, you know the, thenew york renter dealer
association, how did those comeabout?
When you get this literallyfrom ground up on april and you
get and you start being theirlegal counsel, where did the
(01:16):
rdas come from?
Was that a?
Was that a break off of whatyou had done there in texas?
Speaker 2 (01:20):
frda long predated rent.
I've been around, I'm going tosuppose since the 50s and they
were.
There were I don't know four orfive or six purely furniture
rental companies.
They rented by the month onlyand they rented to visiting
executives.
Sometimes they had ownershipoptions, sometimes they didn't,
and it sort of went to I meanthat was the name.
(01:40):
It was a national tradeassociation, frda, furniture
Rental Dealers of America.
They had a general counsel whomay have been in Atlanta, may
have been in DC.
He and I used to talk.
That trade association may ormay not exist, I don't know.
Now the state groups came intoexistence.
Your Florida and Texas cameinto existence over the course
(02:03):
of time as we as ACRO facilitateenacting state laws, the very
first one of which came intoexistence in 1983, michigan, and
there may have been a MichiganRental Leaders I don't know
Michigan Rental LeadersAssociation.
That kind of came and went.
They came into existence longenough to get the laws passed
(02:25):
and then they went away and it'sbeen a struggle, at least in
some states, to keep those stateassociations going.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
Some obviously are very successful Florida the
(03:00):
Midwest guys, nebraska I couldname the ones if I was looking
at a list that had beensuccessful over the years, but
it's also been.
California, for example, is atroublesome state from many
points of view and we've neverbeen very good at getting a
state association to sustainitself in that state, for
example.
Is that because of the statelaws or is it because the people
in that state or the businessowners in that state have
varying different views and kindof don't see eye to eye, so
that they don't be able, they'renot able to sit down around on
a round table and say this isthe things that we want to enact
or this is what we want to do.
So is it more of a companysituation or is it more that the
state laws created to be alittle bit more difficult to
(03:23):
operate in a state or to hold adealer association?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Well, those state associations came into existence
in order to get the laws passedand rental dealers rarely
fought over the wording in thoselaws, although there were some,
you know.
Some guys said, oh geez, I wishwe had higher late fees and I
don't like this part of the lawand I don't like that part of
the law.
But the quid pro quo in all ofthose state laws was, in
(03:51):
exchange for submitting togovernment regulation and making
disclosures, having to beregistered, having to be
licensed, whatever thoseregulations required, in
exchange for submitting to that,we want protection from
lawsuits.
We don't want to be run out ofbusiness by being
recharacterized as a credit sale.
(04:11):
So all of those state laws saya rent-only transaction is this
and it's not a credit saleconditional sale, installment
sale, security interest underArticle 9.
And that was the deal that westruck when we were getting
these laws passed.
So the groups came together togo to the state capitals to get
(04:32):
the laws passed.
Once the law got passed theywent back to rent TVs.
They weren't interested ingoing to meetings.
So the state associations kindof dissolved.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
One of the big aspects of it is having somebody
who's really willing to kind ofnot only rent and collect on
the TVs but stay true to theactual meetings and making sure
the minutes are taken and goingthrough the action and the
motions to keep it active.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
States that have had a champion somebody who wants to
have a state association havebeen able to keep it going.
States that will lose theirchampion because he sells his
company or they never could findone, they've had trouble
sustaining themselves.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
So, talking about the current legal climate and
what's going on, of course wehave a new administration right
now.
It's right around the corner.
We're right before LegCon.
We plan on going to DC to makesure that we advocate for rent
to own With the currentadministration that's in office.
Do you see that as a?
You know, there's been a bigtalk about Trump being very you
(05:35):
know, let's take out regulation,let's let's work more in the
state level, let's get thingsmoving.
Is that?
Do you see this administrationas a better move for rent to own
overall, or is that possiblysomething that might hurt us in
the long run with the tariffsand some of the regulations that
they might add later on in?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
your opinion.
Well, my personal view is it'sonly a good thing Having Trump
in the White House will be goodfor RTO, because if he's left to
his own devices, he'll put theCFPB out of business.
Yes, and if the prices of TVsrise, if guys are buying TVs
from China and tariffs hitwholesale prices, they'll just
(06:15):
pass them on.
I mean, that's not going to.
That ain't going to hurt thebusiness, I don't think.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
The CFPB, of course, is one of the things that you
know.
One of the topic points wasgoing to come up because I
actually agree with you.
I think that he'd be on theother side of it to deregulate
or to cut that all together tomake sure that it doesn't impede
on some of the things that canhelp growth.
So we still have the situationsand the bills that are coming
(06:43):
up in New York that are kind ofgoing towards that regulation.
Do you see that still happeningas a state level or that can
that?
Do you think that might even becorrected as a federal level?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
And then it kind of covers on the state level
thought Well, when ACR gotstarted, the goal was to get a
federal law passed and have RTOrecognized as its own distinct
transaction, separate and apartfrom the credit.
And we tried and we spent a lotof money in DC with lobbyists
over the years and we were neversuccessful.
We came close in 1983.
(07:16):
We got a bill through theSenate.
We came close again in 2001.
We got a bill barely passedthrough the House.
Republican after Republicansaid listen, you guys don't live
in Washington DC, you do notwant federal regulation and
we're not going to help you getit because it's a mistake.
And obviously the Democratshated Rendon anyway just when
(07:38):
they woke up in the morning.
So we snuck a bill.
Really the vote was like three.
We got that bill passed.
We didn't pass the bill.
We got it through the House bymaybe three votes.
It died in the Senate in 2001.
We had a public hearing in 2005, and the industry sort of
abandoned the federal effort.
After that.
(07:58):
We had a fool with Dodd-Frankand the creation of the CFPB.
In 2010, we were able to keepRTO out of that law and that
bureau.
But that's not been a seriousissue and I don't think it's
going to ever be a serious issue.
It costs too much money We'dhave to spend.
I don't know what the numberwould be now.
(08:19):
I used to say it would cost us$10 to $20 million to get a
federal law passed and we werespending $1 to $2 million.
We weren't spending enoughmoney.
There's no telling what itwould cost now to get a federal
law and really my view is wedon't need one, that we've got
all these state laws and they'reworking.
So we're going to have somerear guard actions in the states
(08:41):
like New York, but we'll beatthose back.
I don't see New York changingthe law or any other state
unraveling the existingregulatory environment.
That's just not a lot.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Yeah, I know that Charles Smitherman and the CEO
of April and the guys in the NewYork Rental Dealer Association,
jeff Smith and the rest of them, are working on that.
You know, constantly to getthat taken back.
Uh, once it came back insession I know they were working
very hard with a lot of othercompanies in that area to kind
of to kind of what's going onNow.
I meant to ask you, cause Ireally don't know this and that
(09:17):
I'm possibly going to learn thisas we go, as I, as I do more
rent to own, I know in Floridawe have statute 812.155.
I do more rent to own.
I know in Florida we havestatute 812.155.
Is that a statute that is, orhas a sister statutes like that
in other states that kind ofread the same, or are they all
completely different?
Speaker 2 (09:33):
What statute are you referring to?
In Florida, just the RTOstatutes.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
We know the criminal notice part of it Correct, it's
a third degree felony to keeprental merchandise.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Florida is unique in requiring that disclosure in the
rental agreements, having tohaving to notify customers that
oh, by the way, if you steal TVsit might be a crime.
No other state requires thatand Florida's had a checkered
history regarding theft ofrental property.
(10:05):
It's been outlawed, it's beenbrought back.
It's been outlawed, it's beenbrought back.
These days you can do it.
It's a live issue for the RTOindustry.
There are guys who think youshould never file criminal
charges against rental thieves.
There are other guys who say,hey, somebody steals my TV, I
want them in the penitentiary.
So the industry's split overthat issue.
(10:28):
And Texas did away with theftof rental property for RTO.
It's gone in South Carolina,it's gone in Virginia, it's gone
in Connecticut and, so far as Iknow, it's alive and well in
the other states, depending onwhether you can get your
district attorney to take toprosecute.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
So that was actually going to be.
My next question is I know thatin several occasions, depending
on the county that you're in,you can have them be full force
and with you and you can getthings done, and very legally I
mean nothing outside of thelines but then you have counties
that are a little bit moreliberal, a little bit more ease
at that, and they don't quiteenforce that.
(11:06):
Is there any way to reallytackle that from a legal
standpoint, when you havesomething that's been on the
books, has been on the book, butthey're not enforcing it?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Here's my advice when dealers call and they're pissed
off because the DA won'tprosecute rental thieves, my
advice to them is, or has beengo to the DA's website, because
on that website will be a listof all of the contributors.
Those guys run for office.
That's an elected office.
So if you got a DA you don'tlike vote for the other guy next
.
But in the meantime look to seewho the major contributors to
the existing DA were in the lastelection and they're going to
(11:44):
all be law firms.
That's who is interested ingetting DAs elected or not,
Nobody else cares.
So go to that list, see who thefind the law firm that makes the
largest contribution, that madethe largest contributions to
the DA.
Hire somebody out of that lawfirm and say get me a meeting
with the DA.
And you go sit down with thedistrict attorney and a lawyer
(12:08):
from the law firm that gave himthe most money in his last
election and lay your case outand say, hey, I don't want you
to do my collections, but everynow and again I want you to
prosecute somebody.
That's read the word.
That can't steal TVs fromrental dealers with impunity.
And it will be very hard forthe DA across the table from his
(12:29):
biggest political contributorto say, no, you're going to be
able to work a deal.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
So the idea is to tackle them where it hurts, not
exactly go head to head in thelaw situation.
Find out who their constituentsare, find out who's given them
the money to reelect and thenapproach it publicly, so to
speak.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Politics, politics.
I've done it in Texas in acouple of counties.
I've gone and met with the DAand negotiated the deal.
One time the DA said yeah, Iunderstand.
This is back before the lawchanged.
He said I'll tell you what I'lldo.
Once a quarter, bring me yourbest case and I'll prosecute.
And the other county, the otherDA, said I'll tell you what.
(13:07):
As long as the guy has paidless than half on the deal, I'm
willing to prosecute if you'vegot the facts.
So you can't persuade everybody.
There are some dyed in the woolliberal district attorneys who
are not going to help you.
But if you play the politicalgame you can make headway.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
So this is something new for me.
We're going to LegCon thisApril and we're going to be
talking to a brand newadministration.
I've only done this one year,so I'm just kind of used to the
old administration.
I don't know anything about it.
When you're going into LegCon,we're going to go see these
people, whether it's on thestate level or whether it's on
the federal level.
On the state level, you can havea new governor or, you know,
(13:44):
you can switch from a Republicanto Democrat or, you know,
democrat to Republican.
Same thing like we're doing atbasically the federal level.
We've gone from a Democraticpresident to a Republican
president.
There's a lot of changes.
Is there something that weshould do when the changes are?
It's not like one of thoseeight-year listings where we've
gone seven years out of theeight years and it's been the
(14:06):
same presidency, it's been thesame kind of people.
When you're going to acompletely different cabinet,
you're going to a completelydifferent thought process
between one party and the next.
Do you have any advice for that?
When you're coming in, youhaven't really seen anybody that
you had seen before, and thisis all brand new.
Is there some way that youwould tackle it to basically put
(14:27):
the flare out there and say hey, look at us, look at where we
are and have that best footforward.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Well, every election, every election cycle, every two
years, the makeup of Congresschanges by about a third.
You get a third new bodies inthere.
Whether you change from R to Dor D to R, there are brand new
people in Washington DC withbrand new jobs regulating your
(14:54):
world.
And you want to go up there andmake friends.
And the chances are they'vebeen to Ivy League colleges and
have never heard of Rent to Own.
So it's been this way for 25years that we're not trying to
get anything out of the Congress.
We're not asking them really todo anything.
We're up there to make friendsand to make sure that nothing
(15:17):
bad happens.
So my counsel and when I go andsit with rental leaders at those
meetings is I want them to havea rent-to-own story, explain
what it is that they do and whyit is that they do, and some
good emotional tales ofcustomers that you helped.
They make a good story.
Everybody's got one,everybody's got pockets full,
(15:43):
probably, and that's all you'redoing.
You're just making friends.
I don't think you have to doanything radical because we got
a new Republican administration.
You're going to go and tell awritten story because it's a
good story and a lot of peoplehadn't worried.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
So, going back to the retirement piece, Edwin, who
has been on legal counsel for 40years, doing amazing things
over these past decades onmaking rent to own and helping
rent to own be what it isTalking about the retirement are
you going to be at any one ofthese lunch con events, or is
this?
Are you done with that too?
Are you going to patch thattorch on to the ones who are
(16:15):
trying to do it?
Speaker 2 (16:16):
I passed the torch.
Smitherman is a lawyer and agood administrator and a PhD,
and he's running APRO like asmooth ship through the water,
so I left APRO in very goodhands.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
I'll agree with you.
I really like Charles.
I like what he's doing withAPRO.
I like the people that he'skind of put around himself as
far as a team that he has.
They're very close, they'revery dedicated.
I've seen a lot of changes inApril in the last you know year
or so.
That feels like Charles beenaround for a lot longer than
that, but you know he's beenaround for a long time enough to
make the changes that's neededso that you can you can see from
(16:52):
from what happened before hewas there till after and how
everything interacts.
It's going very well.
So I will say I agree with you100%.
So you're in Texas now.
Correct Texas since 1976, Austinso out in Texas when
rent-to-own started kicking off.
And you're talking about theTalley's.
I mean, I came along whenTalley still had Renner's Choice
(17:13):
and before he passed he was avery dear person in my eyes,
although I never met him.
You know, I learned rent-to-ownunder that business, under that
company, and everything went.
So as you start expanding andAPRO starts growing, how is it
that you get more states to cometo the table Now that you know
(17:34):
you start this organization andrent-to-own starts growing?
Right, it starts expanding,it's in different states and now
it's pretty much everywhere,except for maybe what two states
now it's Minnesota.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
There's no rent-to-own in Minnesota because
of how the law reads.
There's one dealer in Wisconsinagain because of how the law
reads and there's very littlerent-to-own in New Jersey, again
because those states don't haveeffective rent to own
legislation.
Those three.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
So rent to own is expanding and you have this
organization that's starting tobring people in to gather.
How do you get those new statesor a state in to be a part of
this?
What is the way that we letthem know hey, this is a great
idea, your RDA is a great idea,but we also want to do this as a
collective.
How did they get them in andhow did we get the birth of APRO
off the ground and growing?
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Well, I know growth these days is virtual, that's
true.
It ain't brick and mortar.
Yeah, guys are open in a fewstores, maybe storefronts, but
the real growth is VRTO, whichwill one day dwarf the brick and
mortar guys or at least beequal to them.
And membership in APRO is bycompany.
(18:46):
So we're not states aren'tmembers, and APRO has a very
active marketing campaign thatthey're always on the lookout
for new entrants into thebusiness.
And how they're doing that Idon't know these days I'm not
keeping up with that.
But when they hear of somebodywho is new to the business, they
(19:07):
send them April stuff, say, hey, come join the club, we'll make
your business better and we'llmake it safer.
We'll make your business betterand we'll make it safer.
The problem is that noteverybody understands.
I mean, I equate belonging toAPRO like having insurance we're
going to make sure nothing badhappens to you.
Well, we're not putting moneyin your pocket, we're taking
(19:29):
money out of your pocket.
And that's a hard sell for somerental dealers.
They don't want to spend money,they don't have have to spend
and some people just won't.
But there's some big guys outthere with 100 plus stores who
have just told me, even though Iask them every time I talk to
them or did you need to joinAcro?
No, not going to do it, notgoing to do it.
I'll take care of my ownbusiness and let somebody else
(19:52):
fund Acro.
That's just how tradeassociations, nationally trade
associations the last time Ilooked there are 30,000 or
40,000 trade associations.
Average membership in nationaltrade associations 50% and
APRO's got a much higherpercentage.
We're 70% or 80% of existingrental dealers are members of
(20:14):
APRO, so we're doing a prettygood job.
Historically we've done apretty good job getting people
to belong.
They understand the risks andthere's some outliers and you
know we keep trying to get themand maybe we will.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Maybe we won't, who knows, technically retired, but
you kind of you're the go-tosource right now.
I mean, you have all theseyears of knowledge with
everything that's going on inthe world, the CFPB what's
happening with theadministration changes?
What do?
Speaker 2 (20:48):
you think, legally, is rent-to-owns biggest hurdle
coming up within the next year?
I don't think we got anyserious legal hurdles.
We're going to have a New Yorkpop up every now and again, but
we haven't had a stink battletrying to think Vermont was the
very last state to have enactedmeaningful, comprehensive
rent-to-own legislation.
That was in 2015.
(21:09):
So it's been a decade before astate rent-to-own issue has
popped up.
The New York bill is not goingto go anywhere.
I mean, we have a very good,effective rent on statute.
It's been amended in New Yorkstate, so they're not going to.
No state has unraveled arent-to-own law and so here's an
effort to try to do that.
(21:29):
It will not be successful, Isuppose, if I had to speculate.
The theft issue pops up fromtime to time.
It's politically somewhat of ahot potato.
The liberals can make hay withit.
You know Welfare Mother does 30days for failure to return.
Read it on TV.
So it's got a little politicalpanache if you want to try to do
(21:53):
away with it.
And, quite frankly, theindustry could survive and
prosper if you didn't have thatlaw, if you didn't have the
criminal solution to rebelfeverily South Carolina.
We haven't been able to putpeople in jail in South Carolina
since 1983, past the RTOstatute there.
Nobody has ever been able totell me that rental dealers make
(22:16):
less money in South Carolinathan anywhere else.
So I've lived with that 45years and I understand that.
When we have polled rentaldealers half the guys say I've
never filed criminal charges andI never would.
But 80% say we like that law onthe books.
We don't want it taken awayfrom us, Just in case that's the
(22:37):
only live, that there are someissues there and how they're
doing.
When we got those walls passedstate by state, we went with
three arguments no obligation,keep rate and we fix it.
(22:58):
It's our stuff, We'll fix itfor you.
And those were persuasivearguments.
And the keep rate in the brickand mortar stores weekly
business under 30%, monthlybusiness under 50%.
So most people are giving thestuff back.
We are honest to God and we'renot in the pretend.
So the virtual guys came alongin the I don't know the teens,
(23:19):
the 2000 teens because thepayday money was running scared,
there was a lot of payday money.
They were changing those laws.
So they came and said, hey,we're going to do red tone.
(23:41):
I was feeling a call a week andthey said we got a website,
we're going to do red tone.
I said, great, only going torent to the people who pay.
And so virtual was born.
Well, virtual does have noobligation, but it won't fix the
property unless the lawdictates it.
And the keep rate is high Idon't know how high.
(24:01):
They're kind of cagey aboutthat, but they ain't picking up
much stuff.
They can't pick up much stuff.
So what's important, I thinkand that's been a live issue, in
my mind at least, or was untilI retired Last fall a Utah
federal court judge said in acase against one of the big
virtual companies.
He said as long as the contracthas a no obligation provision
(24:24):
and the customer can give itback at any time, I don't care
what happens after that, I don'tcare what the keep rate is, I
don't care whether they pick itup, I don't care what happens in
the four corners of thedocument.
The customer's not obligated tokeep making payments.
It is not credit, and so thatsort of, at least for the moment
, has answered that question.
Will that stand the test oftime?
I don't know, and I don't haveto.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
Right now you get to say it's okay, I don't need to
know that.
So when the dealers say, okay,not necessarily going to press
the charges, but having that onthe books, to say that it is a
possibility, that is a recourse,even though we might not take
that recourse, does that make itand I know they're completely
separate from a civil situationand a criminal situation does
that give a leeway to a judge orlegally to say we could
(25:10):
prosecute criminally, we're notgoing to, but we just want to
get either the payments out ofthis or the product back?
Does that give them a littlebit more leeway to say, okay,
we'll file it civilly, we couldbe doing this criminally, we're
not going to work with us.
Is that kind of like how it canwork or is it could just
completely?
Let's just do civil, not worryabout it.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
I'm sure from time to time, rental dealers are at the
doorstep saying if you don'tgive me back my TV, I'm going to
have you breaking rocks in thehot sun.
I mean that's.
I'm sure that those words arespoken, but I thought they
should be You're not supposed tothreaten criminal prosecution.
You can do it.
You can file criminal charges.
(25:50):
You're not supposed to threatenit, but I'm sure that that
happens.
And so what dealers?
As I say, reasonable mindsdiffer about that and I used to
say when I came along there wereno laws.
I was trying to get laws passedand I thought we were
vulnerable and I didn't go withmy chest puffed out.
I went hat in hand to thelegislature saying listen, we're
honest, guys, we're making aliving, we're making people's
(26:12):
lives better and we need thislaw.
And I told rental dealers Isaid it's going to make my job
and the job of everybody who'strying to make rent on legal a
lot harder If we wake up onemorning and read in the
newspaper welfare mom does 30days in jail for failure to
return rented TV.
That's going to make it harderto get the laws passed.
(26:34):
And so I said don't do it.
And guys said mind your ownbusiness, wynn, you know I got a
business to run and peoplesteal my TVs.
I'm going to buy a gun.
Get them back or I'm going toget a pound of flesh.
So that's been a debate for aslong as I've been around and
it's going to continue to bearound.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
Yeah, it's definitely a hot potato.
I mean you don't want to.
It's certainly a case-by-case.
When you try to look at asituation and go, okay, what do
I do here?
What is the right move?
Is it intentional ornon-intentional?
Who's on the other end of this?
But then you also have to thinkif I let this situation go, is
it going to hurt my business tothe point because other things
are going to follow the suit tothis activity?
(27:12):
In other words, is somebodygoing to follow it because it's
there to follow, or is it theright thing to do and we legally
go down this road because it'swhat we're owed and what the
customer signed on to?
There's so much to that andgoing from state to state
thinking.
Everybody has their differentlaws and everybody approaches it
differently.
(27:32):
There are a few states that dothat rent to rent.
Can you give me a reason as towhy those particular states do
rent to rent versus a rent toown transaction?
Is there a particular legalreason why they can't do a rent
toown?
Speaker 2 (27:46):
I'm not aware of anybody seriously doing
rent-to-rent other than rollyards, lawnmowers and backhoe
diggers, to my knowledge atleast, vibrant rent-to-rent
industry of TVs, appliances andfurniture, other than there's a
shadow of the executivefurniture rentals.
(28:08):
They rent an apartment full offurniture at a time for three
rooms.
That's still out there, I think, but it's tiny.
Rent to rent is not vibrant inany state that I know of, other
than, as I say, the rental yardstents that stuff.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
You're putting together everything that's
happened.
You're putting together what'shappening now and you're looking
forward and going.
I don't have anything on thedocket, I don't have anything
lined up, I don't have anythingfor the next few months or years
.
How do you put away 40 years ofbeing really one of the better
(28:45):
parts of APRO, being one of thebackbone members of APRO, to not
being able to do?
Now I say that I'm not 40 yearsinto it, so it might be easier
to say you know, I can put myhead up and walk away with my
head held high, but how do youget away from that?
How does your normal day to daywork now that you've been able
to go through that and then say,okay, I'm done, do you still
get that calling?
Do you still get that callingthat you know make the phone
(29:06):
calls or find out what's goingon, or look on the computer or
read the newspaper?
How does that feel now thatyou're at the end of things?
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Well, you'd be surprised.
It's fairly easy to walk away.
I'm still sorting out what todo next, but I'm not hawking the
rent only.
You know I used to have to wakeup every single morning of my
life and scroll through 200 RTOalerts on Google for news about
the industry.
I had to look at all the billswe've got.
(29:33):
April's got a service that hasa computerized retrieval system
from every legislature in thecountry, so we have keywords.
There are 35 or so phrases interms.
Keywords they're 35 or sophrases in terms and I would
have to review all of thosebills.
That popped through Incrediblenumbers of bills over the last
(29:55):
few years about rent, on housing, for example, but I had to make
sure that they didn't touch us.
I don't do that now.
I'm not, you know it's gone.
It's gone.
You don't miss that at all.
No, shit, no, I don't miss it.
I mean I didn't have to.
(30:21):
They didn't run me off.
You don't miss that at all.
Put a lot of energy in it.
I thought fine, you know I'llfind something else to do.
I haven't yet, but I'm notruining the day that I retire.
I feel fine about it.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
So I've got one last question and I'm just curious.
When we were emailing, to kindof get on this, I see that you
still have the law firm email.
Are you still part of the lawfirm or have you retired all the
way, that's?
Speaker 2 (30:49):
just my email.
I did that just withoutchanging email and I've rented
an office and I have an office,but I'm not a lawyer, I'm a
citizen of the world.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Well, I want to tell you, mr Wynn, we are so
appreciative of everything thatyou've done from the point of
APRO's inception throughout theyears and letting us know what's
going on, to giving the greatadvice that you've given over
the years as far as what to do,how to do it, getting people
aboard and keeping an eye on allthese things.
I mean, I'm certainly curious.
I kind of feel like you do.
(31:20):
I don't think New York is goingto go very far.
I do think that we have a lotof legs on the ground that's
going to really kind of tacklethis and keep it where it's at.
But you know there's, you know,like any good bet, there's
always the underdog, there'salways the other side, there's
always something that can comeout on the other end.
So I do, you know, keep on topof it as best as I can and try
to report on it when I can.
But I'm with you, I like doingthat.
(31:41):
It's great to have been a rentto own and everything that's
happening.
You know, I do wonder how thisnew administration going forward
is going to help us or hinderus.
I don't know if one or eitherway, I'd like to say that I
think the deregulation and someof the ideas that are coming
forward, especially with theCFPB possibly, you know, taking
(32:01):
some of that power back and nothaving to worry about that as
much can really change how we,how we do the things
fundamentally and growthroughout the next few years,
and I'm hoping that it juststays that way because we're at
your own is is.
You know, it's an industry thathas a lot of good people trying
to do a lot of good things andI just want to keep that.
You know going and and peoplelike you seeing, seeing someone
(32:22):
like you retire they go.
Man, one of the greats has gone.
Was there like a passing of thetorch ceremony?
When you left, did you getCharles the torch?
Speaker 2 (32:30):
as things happened, Well, charles comes to Austin, I
don't know how often once aquarter, once every couple of
months and we try to get lunchtogether when he does.
I stay in touch with Charles asneeds be, but he ain't picking
up the phone calling me worryingabout that.
He knows how to do this job.
(32:52):
He's been at it two or threeyears and it's working.
It's working.
So you know, it was a lot offun.
It was a fun ride, it was goodto me and I did the best I could
.
I showed up every day and there, now I'm done.
Now I'm done Well.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
I tell you what we're every day and there, now I'm
done.
Now I'm done.
Well, I tell you what we'regoing to miss you at LitchCon
this year.
I'm going to be going with someother people from Florida and
some of the other people that Iknow, some of the colleagues
that I have across the country,and it's going to be great.
I can't wait to see everythingthat's going on.
I know that you've probablyforgotten more about it than
I've ever seen, but the truth isgoing in my second year I'm
looking forward to more of whatI you know.
(33:28):
When you first go, you don'teven really know what to expect.
They know what people tell youwhen you read on it.
Going there and actually beingin DC was my first time in DC
and I really like it was.
It was just a whole take in.
Now I think I'm a little bitmore streamlined and I can.
I kind of know what to expect,who I'm going with Some of the
(33:49):
things that I want to say.
Like you said, have a good story.
At least come up with two orthree and have one in the back
pocket just in case.
Let them know that we are heredoing the best we can.
But I just want to say I reallyappreciate everything that
you've done at APRO, everythingyou've done for N2Own.
I appreciate you being on theshow and I will tell you guys,
if you want to be a part ofwhat's going on at Legicon,
please reach out to April.
If you want to reach out to ushere at the show, pete at the
(34:12):
RTOShowPodcastcom.
If you want to ask Ed aquestion and you don't have his
email, it's okay.
You can DM the RTOShow and ifit's a good question, I will
pass it on to Ed and see if hehas time to stop from the
retirement to slow down justenough to answer a question.
We really appreciate it.
(34:33):
Hit us up on Facebook on.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Instagram.
See us on YouTube.
Mr Ed, I really appreciate youbeing with us today.
Good work with your RTO show.
By the way, You're doing a goodjob.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
Thank you, sir.
And I will tell you guys, asalways, get your collections low
to get your sales high.
Have a great one.
Hello everybody, welcome to the RTO Show podcast.
I'm your host, pete Chow, andtoday we're talking to Ed Wynn,
the newly retired legal counselfor APRO, who just as of
February, decided to take a stepback and retire after 40 long
years in the rental own industry.
Thank God that he's been aroundhere that long, because Lord
knows that we've needed it.
He's been instrumental ingetting things done, and I mean
(00:31):
starting from beginning, ed.
Where did APRO start?
I mean, it was absolutelyalmost nothing when you started,
or nothing when you started,and then you helped it come
along from its infancy all theway to where it is now.
Where did you start so?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
the first AgPro office was in my law office.
I hired a secretary On we went.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
So when you say FRDA, right, the Furniture
Rent-A-Dealer Association andthat wasn't the RDAs that we
normally speak of, because wetalk about Rent-A-Dealer
Association, as in the FloridaRent-A-Dealer Association, the
Missouri association, themissouri renter dealer
association, you know the, thenew york renter dealer
association, how did those comeabout?
When you get this literallyfrom ground up on april and you
get and you start being theirlegal counsel, where did the
(01:16):
rdas come from?
Was that a?
Was that a break off of whatyou had done there in texas?
Speaker 2 (01:20):
frda long predated rent.
I've been around, I'm going tosuppose since the 50s and they
were.
There were I don't know four orfive or six purely furniture
rental companies.
They rented by the month onlyand they rented to visiting
executives.
Sometimes they had ownershipoptions, sometimes they didn't,
and it sort of went to I meanthat was the name.
(01:40):
It was a national tradeassociation, frda, furniture
Rental Dealers of America.
They had a general counsel whomay have been in Atlanta, may
have been in DC.
He and I used to talk.
That trade association may ormay not exist, I don't know.
Now the state groups came intoexistence.
Your Florida and Texas cameinto existence over the course
(02:03):
of time as we as ACRO facilitateenacting state laws, the very
first one of which came intoexistence in 1983, michigan, and
there may have been a MichiganRental Leaders I don't know
Michigan Rental LeadersAssociation.
That kind of came and went.
They came into existence longenough to get the laws passed
(02:25):
and then they went away and it'sbeen a struggle, at least in
some states, to keep those stateassociations going.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
Some obviously are very successful Florida the
(03:00):
Midwest guys, nebraska I couldname the ones if I was looking
at a list that had beensuccessful over the years, but
it's also been.
California, for example, is atroublesome state from many
points of view and we've neverbeen very good at getting a
state association to sustainitself in that state, for
example.
Is that because of the statelaws or is it because the people
in that state or the businessowners in that state have
varying different views and kindof don't see eye to eye, so
that they don't be able, they'renot able to sit down around on
a round table and say this isthe things that we want to enact
or this is what we want to do.
So is it more of a companysituation or is it more that the
state laws created to be alittle bit more difficult to
(03:23):
operate in a state or to hold adealer association?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Well, those state associations came into existence
in order to get the laws passedand rental dealers rarely
fought over the wording in thoselaws, although there were some,
you know.
Some guys said, oh geez, I wishwe had higher late fees and I
don't like this part of the lawand I don't like that part of
the law.
But the quid pro quo in all ofthose state laws was, in
(03:51):
exchange for submitting togovernment regulation and making
disclosures, having to beregistered, having to be
licensed, whatever thoseregulations required, in
exchange for submitting to that,we want protection from
lawsuits.
We don't want to be run out ofbusiness by being
recharacterized as a credit sale.
(04:11):
So all of those state laws saya rent-only transaction is this
and it's not a credit saleconditional sale, installment
sale, security interest underArticle 9.
And that was the deal that westruck when we were getting
these laws passed.
So the groups came together togo to the state capitals to get
(04:32):
the laws passed.
Once the law got passed theywent back to rent TVs.
They weren't interested ingoing to meetings.
So the state associations kindof dissolved.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
One of the big aspects of it is having somebody
who's really willing to kind ofnot only rent and collect on
the TVs but stay true to theactual meetings and making sure
the minutes are taken and goingthrough the action and the
motions to keep it active.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
States that have had a champion somebody who wants to
have a state association havebeen able to keep it going.
States that will lose theirchampion because he sells his
company or they never could findone, they've had trouble
sustaining themselves.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
So, talking about the current legal climate and
what's going on, of course wehave a new administration right
now.
It's right around the corner.
We're right before LegCon.
We plan on going to DC to makesure that we advocate for rent
to own With the currentadministration that's in office.
Do you see that as a?
You know, there's been a bigtalk about Trump being very you
(05:35):
know, let's take out regulation,let's let's work more in the
state level, let's get thingsmoving.
Is that?
Do you see this administrationas a better move for rent to own
overall, or is that possiblysomething that might hurt us in
the long run with the tariffsand some of the regulations that
they might add later on in?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
your opinion.
Well, my personal view is it'sonly a good thing Having Trump
in the White House will be goodfor RTO, because if he's left to
his own devices, he'll put theCFPB out of business.
Yes, and if the prices of TVsrise, if guys are buying TVs
from China and tariffs hitwholesale prices, they'll just
(06:15):
pass them on.
I mean, that's not going to.
That ain't going to hurt thebusiness, I don't think.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
The CFPB, of course, is one of the things that you
know.
One of the topic points wasgoing to come up because I
actually agree with you.
I think that he'd be on theother side of it to deregulate
or to cut that all together tomake sure that it doesn't impede
on some of the things that canhelp growth.
So we still have the situationsand the bills that are coming
(06:43):
up in New York that are kind ofgoing towards that regulation.
Do you see that still happeningas a state level or that can
that?
Do you think that might even becorrected as a federal level?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
And then it kind of covers on the state level
thought Well, when ACR gotstarted, the goal was to get a
federal law passed and have RTOrecognized as its own distinct
transaction, separate and apartfrom the credit.
And we tried and we spent a lotof money in DC with lobbyists
over the years and we were neversuccessful.
We came close in 1983.
(07:16):
We got a bill through theSenate.
We came close again in 2001.
We got a bill barely passedthrough the House.
Republican after Republicansaid listen, you guys don't live
in Washington DC, you do notwant federal regulation and
we're not going to help you getit because it's a mistake.
And obviously the Democratshated Rendon anyway just when
(07:38):
they woke up in the morning.
So we snuck a bill.
Really the vote was like three.
We got that bill passed.
We didn't pass the bill.
We got it through the House bymaybe three votes.
It died in the Senate in 2001.
We had a public hearing in 2005, and the industry sort of
abandoned the federal effort.
After that.
(07:58):
We had a fool with Dodd-Frankand the creation of the CFPB.
In 2010, we were able to keepRTO out of that law and that
bureau.
But that's not been a seriousissue and I don't think it's
going to ever be a serious issue.
It costs too much money We'dhave to spend.
I don't know what the numberwould be now.
(08:19):
I used to say it would cost us$10 to $20 million to get a
federal law passed and we werespending $1 to $2 million.
We weren't spending enoughmoney.
There's no telling what itwould cost now to get a federal
law and really my view is wedon't need one, that we've got
all these state laws and they'reworking.
So we're going to have somerear guard actions in the states
(08:41):
like New York, but we'll beatthose back.
I don't see New York changingthe law or any other state
unraveling the existingregulatory environment.
That's just not a lot.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Yeah, I know that Charles Smitherman and the CEO
of April and the guys in the NewYork Rental Dealer Association,
jeff Smith and the rest of them, are working on that.
You know, constantly to getthat taken back.
Uh, once it came back insession I know they were working
very hard with a lot of othercompanies in that area to kind
of to kind of what's going onNow.
I meant to ask you, cause Ireally don't know this and that
(09:17):
I'm possibly going to learn thisas we go, as I, as I do more
rent to own, I know in Floridawe have statute 812.155.
I do more rent to own.
I know in Florida we havestatute 812.155.
Is that a statute that is, orhas a sister statutes like that
in other states that kind ofread the same, or are they all
completely different?
Speaker 2 (09:33):
What statute are you referring to?
In Florida, just the RTOstatutes.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
We know the criminal notice part of it Correct, it's
a third degree felony to keeprental merchandise.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Florida is unique in requiring that disclosure in the
rental agreements, having tohaving to notify customers that
oh, by the way, if you steal TVsit might be a crime.
No other state requires thatand Florida's had a checkered
history regarding theft ofrental property.
(10:05):
It's been outlawed, it's beenbrought back.
It's been outlawed, it's beenbrought back.
These days you can do it.
It's a live issue for the RTOindustry.
There are guys who think youshould never file criminal
charges against rental thieves.
There are other guys who say,hey, somebody steals my TV, I
want them in the penitentiary.
So the industry's split overthat issue.
(10:28):
And Texas did away with theftof rental property for RTO.
It's gone in South Carolina,it's gone in Virginia, it's gone
in Connecticut and, so far as Iknow, it's alive and well in
the other states, depending onwhether you can get your
district attorney to take toprosecute.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
So that was actually going to be.
My next question is I know thatin several occasions, depending
on the county that you're in,you can have them be full force
and with you and you can getthings done, and very legally I
mean nothing outside of thelines but then you have counties
that are a little bit moreliberal, a little bit more ease
at that, and they don't quiteenforce that.
(11:06):
Is there any way to reallytackle that from a legal
standpoint, when you havesomething that's been on the
books, has been on the book, butthey're not enforcing it?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Here's my advice when dealers call and they're pissed
off because the DA won'tprosecute rental thieves, my
advice to them is, or has beengo to the DA's website, because
on that website will be a listof all of the contributors.
Those guys run for office.
That's an elected office.
So if you got a DA you don'tlike vote for the other guy next
.
But in the meantime look to seewho the major contributors to
the existing DA were in the lastelection and they're going to
(11:44):
all be law firms.
That's who is interested ingetting DAs elected or not,
Nobody else cares.
So go to that list, see who thefind the law firm that makes the
largest contribution, that madethe largest contributions to
the DA.
Hire somebody out of that lawfirm and say get me a meeting
with the DA.
And you go sit down with thedistrict attorney and a lawyer
(12:08):
from the law firm that gave himthe most money in his last
election and lay your case outand say, hey, I don't want you
to do my collections, but everynow and again I want you to
prosecute somebody.
That's read the word.
That can't steal TVs fromrental dealers with impunity.
And it will be very hard forthe DA across the table from his
(12:29):
biggest political contributorto say, no, you're going to be
able to work a deal.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
So the idea is to tackle them where it hurts, not
exactly go head to head in thelaw situation.
Find out who their constituentsare, find out who's given them
the money to reelect and thenapproach it publicly, so to
speak.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Politics, politics.
I've done it in Texas in acouple of counties.
I've gone and met with the DAand negotiated the deal.
One time the DA said yeah, Iunderstand.
This is back before the lawchanged.
He said I'll tell you what I'lldo.
Once a quarter, bring me yourbest case and I'll prosecute.
And the other county, the otherDA, said I'll tell you what.
(13:07):
As long as the guy has paidless than half on the deal, I'm
willing to prosecute if you'vegot the facts.
So you can't persuade everybody.
There are some dyed in the woolliberal district attorneys who
are not going to help you.
But if you play the politicalgame you can make headway.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
So this is something new for me.
We're going to LegCon thisApril and we're going to be
talking to a brand newadministration.
I've only done this one year,so I'm just kind of used to the
old administration.
I don't know anything about it.
When you're going into LegCon,we're going to go see these
people, whether it's on thestate level or whether it's on
the federal level.
On the state level, you can havea new governor or, you know,
(13:44):
you can switch from a Republicanto Democrat or, you know,
democrat to Republican.
Same thing like we're doing atbasically the federal level.
We've gone from a Democraticpresident to a Republican
president.
There's a lot of changes.
Is there something that weshould do when the changes are?
It's not like one of thoseeight-year listings where we've
gone seven years out of theeight years and it's been the
(14:06):
same presidency, it's been thesame kind of people.
When you're going to acompletely different cabinet,
you're going to a completelydifferent thought process
between one party and the next.
Do you have any advice for that?
When you're coming in, youhaven't really seen anybody that
you had seen before, and thisis all brand new.
Is there some way that youwould tackle it to basically put
(14:27):
the flare out there and say hey, look at us, look at where we
are and have that best footforward.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Well, every election, every election cycle, every two
years, the makeup of Congresschanges by about a third.
You get a third new bodies inthere.
Whether you change from R to Dor D to R, there are brand new
people in Washington DC withbrand new jobs regulating your
(14:54):
world.
And you want to go up there andmake friends.
And the chances are they'vebeen to Ivy League colleges and
have never heard of Rent to Own.
So it's been this way for 25years that we're not trying to
get anything out of the Congress.
We're not asking them really todo anything.
We're up there to make friendsand to make sure that nothing
(15:17):
bad happens.
So my counsel and when I go andsit with rental leaders at those
meetings is I want them to havea rent-to-own story, explain
what it is that they do and whyit is that they do, and some
good emotional tales ofcustomers that you helped.
They make a good story.
Everybody's got one,everybody's got pockets full,
(15:43):
probably, and that's all you'redoing.
You're just making friends.
I don't think you have to doanything radical because we got
a new Republican administration.
You're going to go and tell awritten story because it's a
good story and a lot of peoplehadn't worried.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
So, going back to the retirement piece, Edwin, who
has been on legal counsel for 40years, doing amazing things
over these past decades onmaking rent to own and helping
rent to own be what it isTalking about the retirement are
you going to be at any one ofthese lunch con events, or is
this?
Are you done with that too?
Are you going to patch thattorch on to the ones who are
(16:15):
trying to do it?
Speaker 2 (16:16):
I passed the torch.
Smitherman is a lawyer and agood administrator and a PhD,
and he's running APRO like asmooth ship through the water,
so I left APRO in very goodhands.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
I'll agree with you.
I really like Charles.
I like what he's doing withAPRO.
I like the people that he'skind of put around himself as
far as a team that he has.
They're very close, they'revery dedicated.
I've seen a lot of changes inApril in the last you know year
or so.
That feels like Charles beenaround for a lot longer than
that, but you know he's beenaround for a long time enough to
make the changes that's neededso that you can you can see from
(16:52):
from what happened before hewas there till after and how
everything interacts.
It's going very well.
So I will say I agree with you100%.
So you're in Texas now.
Correct Texas since 1976, Austinso out in Texas when
rent-to-own started kicking off.
And you're talking about theTalley's.
I mean, I came along whenTalley still had Renner's Choice
(17:13):
and before he passed he was avery dear person in my eyes,
although I never met him.
You know, I learned rent-to-ownunder that business, under that
company, and everything went.
So as you start expanding andAPRO starts growing, how is it
that you get more states to cometo the table Now that you know
(17:34):
you start this organization andrent-to-own starts growing?
Right, it starts expanding,it's in different states and now
it's pretty much everywhere,except for maybe what two states
now it's Minnesota.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
There's no rent-to-own in Minnesota because
of how the law reads.
There's one dealer in Wisconsinagain because of how the law
reads and there's very littlerent-to-own in New Jersey, again
because those states don't haveeffective rent to own
legislation.
Those three.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
So rent to own is expanding and you have this
organization that's starting tobring people in to gather.
How do you get those new statesor a state in to be a part of
this?
What is the way that we letthem know hey, this is a great
idea, your RDA is a great idea,but we also want to do this as a
collective.
How did they get them in andhow did we get the birth of APRO
off the ground and growing?
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Well, I know growth these days is virtual, that's
true.
It ain't brick and mortar.
Yeah, guys are open in a fewstores, maybe storefronts, but
the real growth is VRTO, whichwill one day dwarf the brick and
mortar guys or at least beequal to them.
And membership in APRO is bycompany.
(18:46):
So we're not states aren'tmembers, and APRO has a very
active marketing campaign thatthey're always on the lookout
for new entrants into thebusiness.
And how they're doing that Idon't know these days I'm not
keeping up with that.
But when they hear of somebodywho is new to the business, they
(19:07):
send them April stuff, say, hey, come join the club, we'll make
your business better and we'llmake it safer.
We'll make your business betterand we'll make it safer.
The problem is that noteverybody understands.
I mean, I equate belonging toAPRO like having insurance we're
going to make sure nothing badhappens to you.
Well, we're not putting moneyin your pocket, we're taking
(19:29):
money out of your pocket.
And that's a hard sell for somerental dealers.
They don't want to spend money,they don't have have to spend
and some people just won't.
But there's some big guys outthere with 100 plus stores who
have just told me, even though Iask them every time I talk to
them or did you need to joinAcro?
No, not going to do it, notgoing to do it.
I'll take care of my ownbusiness and let somebody else
(19:52):
fund Acro.
That's just how tradeassociations, nationally trade
associations the last time Ilooked there are 30,000 or
40,000 trade associations.
Average membership in nationaltrade associations 50% and
APRO's got a much higherpercentage.
We're 70% or 80% of existingrental dealers are members of
(20:14):
APRO, so we're doing a prettygood job.
Historically we've done apretty good job getting people
to belong.
They understand the risks andthere's some outliers and you
know we keep trying to get themand maybe we will.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Maybe we won't, who knows, technically retired, but
you kind of you're the go-tosource right now.
I mean, you have all theseyears of knowledge with
everything that's going on inthe world, the CFPB what's
happening with theadministration changes?
What do?
Speaker 2 (20:48):
you think, legally, is rent-to-owns biggest hurdle
coming up within the next year?
I don't think we got anyserious legal hurdles.
We're going to have a New Yorkpop up every now and again, but
we haven't had a stink battletrying to think Vermont was the
very last state to have enactedmeaningful, comprehensive
rent-to-own legislation.
That was in 2015.
(21:09):
So it's been a decade before astate rent-to-own issue has
popped up.
The New York bill is not goingto go anywhere.
I mean, we have a very good,effective rent on statute.
It's been amended in New Yorkstate, so they're not going to.
No state has unraveled arent-to-own law and so here's an
effort to try to do that.
(21:29):
It will not be successful, Isuppose, if I had to speculate.
The theft issue pops up fromtime to time.
It's politically somewhat of ahot potato.
The liberals can make hay withit.
You know Welfare Mother does 30days for failure to return.
Read it on TV.
So it's got a little politicalpanache if you want to try to do
(21:53):
away with it.
And, quite frankly, theindustry could survive and
prosper if you didn't have thatlaw, if you didn't have the
criminal solution to rebelfeverily South Carolina.
We haven't been able to putpeople in jail in South Carolina
since 1983, past the RTOstatute there.
Nobody has ever been able totell me that rental dealers make
(22:16):
less money in South Carolinathan anywhere else.
So I've lived with that 45years and I understand that.
When we have polled rentaldealers half the guys say I've
never filed criminal charges andI never would.
But 80% say we like that law onthe books.
We don't want it taken awayfrom us, Just in case that's the
(22:37):
only live, that there are someissues there and how they're
doing.
When we got those walls passedstate by state, we went with
three arguments no obligation,keep rate and we fix it.
(22:58):
It's our stuff, We'll fix itfor you.
And those were persuasivearguments.
And the keep rate in the brickand mortar stores weekly
business under 30%, monthlybusiness under 50%.
So most people are giving thestuff back.
We are honest to God and we'renot in the pretend.
So the virtual guys came alongin the I don't know the teens,
(23:19):
the 2000 teens because thepayday money was running scared,
there was a lot of payday money.
They were changing those laws.
So they came and said, hey,we're going to do red tone.
(23:41):
I was feeling a call a week andthey said we got a website,
we're going to do red tone.
I said, great, only going torent to the people who pay.
And so virtual was born.
Well, virtual does have noobligation, but it won't fix the
property unless the lawdictates it.
And the keep rate is high Idon't know how high.
(24:01):
They're kind of cagey aboutthat, but they ain't picking up
much stuff.
They can't pick up much stuff.
So what's important, I thinkand that's been a live issue, in
my mind at least, or was untilI retired Last fall a Utah
federal court judge said in acase against one of the big
virtual companies.
He said as long as the contracthas a no obligation provision
(24:24):
and the customer can give itback at any time, I don't care
what happens after that, I don'tcare what the keep rate is, I
don't care whether they pick itup, I don't care what happens in
the four corners of thedocument.
The customer's not obligated tokeep making payments.
It is not credit, and so thatsort of, at least for the moment
, has answered that question.
Will that stand the test oftime?
I don't know, and I don't haveto.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
Right now you get to say it's okay, I don't need to
know that.
So when the dealers say, okay,not necessarily going to press
the charges, but having that onthe books, to say that it is a
possibility, that is a recourse,even though we might not take
that recourse, does that make itand I know they're completely
separate from a civil situationand a criminal situation does
that give a leeway to a judge orlegally to say we could
(25:10):
prosecute criminally, we're notgoing to, but we just want to
get either the payments out ofthis or the product back?
Does that give them a littlebit more leeway to say, okay,
we'll file it civilly, we couldbe doing this criminally, we're
not going to work with us.
Is that kind of like how it canwork or is it could just
completely?
Let's just do civil, not worryabout it.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
I'm sure from time to time, rental dealers are at the
doorstep saying if you don'tgive me back my TV, I'm going to
have you breaking rocks in thehot sun.
I mean that's.
I'm sure that those words arespoken, but I thought they
should be You're not supposed tothreaten criminal prosecution.
You can do it.
You can file criminal charges.
(25:50):
You're not supposed to threatenit, but I'm sure that that
happens.
And so what dealers?
As I say, reasonable mindsdiffer about that and I used to
say when I came along there wereno laws.
I was trying to get laws passedand I thought we were
vulnerable and I didn't go withmy chest puffed out.
I went hat in hand to thelegislature saying listen, we're
honest, guys, we're making aliving, we're making people's
(26:12):
lives better and we need thislaw.
And I told rental dealers Isaid it's going to make my job
and the job of everybody who'strying to make rent on legal a
lot harder If we wake up onemorning and read in the
newspaper welfare mom does 30days in jail for failure to
return rented TV.
That's going to make it harderto get the laws passed.
(26:34):
And so I said don't do it.
And guys said mind your ownbusiness, wynn, you know I got a
business to run and peoplesteal my TVs.
I'm going to buy a gun.
Get them back or I'm going toget a pound of flesh.
So that's been a debate for aslong as I've been around and
it's going to continue to bearound.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
Yeah, it's definitely a hot potato.
I mean you don't want to.
It's certainly a case-by-case.
When you try to look at asituation and go, okay, what do
I do here?
What is the right move?
Is it intentional ornon-intentional?
Who's on the other end of this?
But then you also have to thinkif I let this situation go, is
it going to hurt my business tothe point because other things
are going to follow the suit tothis activity?
(27:12):
In other words, is somebodygoing to follow it because it's
there to follow, or is it theright thing to do and we legally
go down this road because it'swhat we're owed and what the
customer signed on to?
There's so much to that andgoing from state to state
thinking.
Everybody has their differentlaws and everybody approaches it
differently.
(27:32):
There are a few states that dothat rent to rent.
Can you give me a reason as towhy those particular states do
rent to rent versus a rent toown transaction?
Is there a particular legalreason why they can't do a rent
toown?
Speaker 2 (27:46):
I'm not aware of anybody seriously doing
rent-to-rent other than rollyards, lawnmowers and backhoe
diggers, to my knowledge atleast, vibrant rent-to-rent
industry of TVs, appliances andfurniture, other than there's a
shadow of the executivefurniture rentals.
(28:08):
They rent an apartment full offurniture at a time for three
rooms.
That's still out there, I think, but it's tiny.
Rent to rent is not vibrant inany state that I know of, other
than, as I say, the rental yardstents that stuff.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
You're putting together everything that's
happened.
You're putting together what'shappening now and you're looking
forward and going.
I don't have anything on thedocket, I don't have anything
lined up, I don't have anythingfor the next few months or years
.
How do you put away 40 years ofbeing really one of the better
(28:45):
parts of APRO, being one of thebackbone members of APRO, to not
being able to do?
Now I say that I'm not 40 yearsinto it, so it might be easier
to say you know, I can put myhead up and walk away with my
head held high, but how do youget away from that?
How does your normal day to daywork now that you've been able
to go through that and then say,okay, I'm done, do you still
get that calling?
Do you still get that callingthat you know make the phone
(29:06):
calls or find out what's goingon, or look on the computer or
read the newspaper?
How does that feel now thatyou're at the end of things?
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Well, you'd be surprised.
It's fairly easy to walk away.
I'm still sorting out what todo next, but I'm not hawking the
rent only.
You know I used to have to wakeup every single morning of my
life and scroll through 200 RTOalerts on Google for news about
the industry.
I had to look at all the billswe've got.
(29:33):
April's got a service that hasa computerized retrieval system
from every legislature in thecountry, so we have keywords.
There are 35 or so phrases interms.
Keywords they're 35 or sophrases in terms and I would
have to review all of thosebills.
That popped through Incrediblenumbers of bills over the last
(29:55):
few years about rent, on housing, for example, but I had to make
sure that they didn't touch us.
I don't do that now.
I'm not, you know it's gone.
It's gone.
You don't miss that at all.
No, shit, no, I don't miss it.
I mean I didn't have to.
(30:21):
They didn't run me off.
You don't miss that at all.
Put a lot of energy in it.
I thought fine, you know I'llfind something else to do.
I haven't yet, but I'm notruining the day that I retire.
I feel fine about it.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
So I've got one last question and I'm just curious.
When we were emailing, to kindof get on this, I see that you
still have the law firm email.
Are you still part of the lawfirm or have you retired all the
way, that's?
Speaker 2 (30:49):
just my email.
I did that just withoutchanging email and I've rented
an office and I have an office,but I'm not a lawyer, I'm a
citizen of the world.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Well, I want to tell you, mr Wynn, we are so
appreciative of everything thatyou've done from the point of
APRO's inception throughout theyears and letting us know what's
going on, to giving the greatadvice that you've given over
the years as far as what to do,how to do it, getting people
aboard and keeping an eye on allthese things.
I mean, I'm certainly curious.
I kind of feel like you do.
(31:20):
I don't think New York is goingto go very far.
I do think that we have a lotof legs on the ground that's
going to really kind of tacklethis and keep it where it's at.
But you know there's, you know,like any good bet, there's
always the underdog, there'salways the other side, there's
always something that can comeout on the other end.
So I do, you know, keep on topof it as best as I can and try
to report on it when I can.
But I'm with you, I like doingthat.
(31:41):
It's great to have been a rentto own and everything that's
happening.
You know, I do wonder how thisnew administration going forward
is going to help us or hinderus.
I don't know if one or eitherway, I'd like to say that I
think the deregulation and someof the ideas that are coming
forward, especially with theCFPB possibly, you know, taking
(32:01):
some of that power back and nothaving to worry about that as
much can really change how we,how we do the things
fundamentally and growthroughout the next few years,
and I'm hoping that it juststays that way because we're at
your own is is.
You know, it's an industry thathas a lot of good people trying
to do a lot of good things andI just want to keep that.
You know going and and peoplelike you seeing, seeing someone
(32:22):
like you retire they go.
Man, one of the greats has gone.
Was there like a passing of thetorch ceremony?
When you left, did you getCharles the torch?
Speaker 2 (32:30):
as things happened, Well, charles comes to Austin, I
don't know how often once aquarter, once every couple of
months and we try to get lunchtogether when he does.
I stay in touch with Charles asneeds be, but he ain't picking
up the phone calling me worryingabout that.
He knows how to do this job.
(32:52):
He's been at it two or threeyears and it's working.
It's working.
So you know, it was a lot offun.
It was a fun ride, it was goodto me and I did the best I could
.
I showed up every day and there, now I'm done.
Now I'm done Well.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
I tell you what we're every day and there, now I'm
done.
Now I'm done.
Well, I tell you what we'regoing to miss you at LitchCon
this year.
I'm going to be going with someother people from Florida and
some of the other people that Iknow, some of the colleagues
that I have across the country,and it's going to be great.
I can't wait to see everythingthat's going on.
I know that you've probablyforgotten more about it than
I've ever seen, but the truth isgoing in my second year I'm
looking forward to more of whatI you know.
(33:28):
When you first go, you don'teven really know what to expect.
They know what people tell youwhen you read on it.
Going there and actually beingin DC was my first time in DC
and I really like it was.
It was just a whole take in.
Now I think I'm a little bitmore streamlined and I can.
I kind of know what to expect,who I'm going with Some of the
(33:49):
things that I want to say.
Like you said, have a good story.
At least come up with two orthree and have one in the back
pocket just in case.
Let them know that we are heredoing the best we can.
But I just want to say I reallyappreciate everything that
you've done at APRO, everythingyou've done for N2Own.
I appreciate you being on theshow and I will tell you guys,
if you want to be a part ofwhat's going on at Legicon,
please reach out to April.
If you want to reach out to ushere at the show, pete at the
(34:12):
RTOShowPodcastcom.
If you want to ask Ed aquestion and you don't have his
email, it's okay.
You can DM the RTOShow and ifit's a good question, I will
pass it on to Ed and see if hehas time to stop from the
retirement to slow down justenough to answer a question.
We really appreciate it.
(34:33):
Hit us up on Facebook on.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Instagram.
See us on YouTube.
Mr Ed, I really appreciate youbeing with us today.
Good work with your RTO show.
By the way, You're doing a goodjob.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
Thank you, sir.
And I will tell you guys, asalways, get your collections low
to get your sales high.
Have a great one.
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