May 5, 2025 • 55 mins
Have you ever wondered who's looking out for the rent-to-own industry in Washington DC? In this eye-opening conversation, host Pete Shau sits down with APRO CEO Charles Smitherman to pull back the curtain on LegCon, the annual legislative conference that forms the front line defense for the $12 billion rent-to-own industry.
Charles shares how this 31-year tradition continues to evolve, with attendance growing to 88 participants this year as industry professionals converge on Capitol Hill to educate lawmakers about the unique nature of rent-to-own transactions. You'll discover the meticulous planning that goes into organizing effective legislative visits, with teams carefully matched to relevant representatives and schedules optimized to prevent unnecessary treks across the massive Capitol campus (though many still clocked an impressive 16,000 steps!).
The conversation takes a fascinating turn when discussing the Fellows Program, an innovative initiative bringing first-time attendees into the advocacy fold. By sponsoring newcomers and pairing them with experienced advocates like industry veterans Larry Carrico and Michael Wall, APRO is cultivating the next generation of industry defenders. The results are impressive – half of last year's inaugural class returned independently this year.
Perhaps most compelling is the emphasis on storytelling as the cornerstone of effective advocacy. As Charles explains, while data matters, it's the personal narratives about providing "cold milk, not just refrigerators" and "good night's sleep, not just mattresses" that truly resonate with legislators. These stories highlight how rent-to-own serves communities and creates opportunities for both customers and employees.
Whether you're a seasoned RTO professional or just curious about how industries protect themselves from regulatory overreach, this episode offers rare insight into the proactive approach that keeps rent-to-own accessible for the one in thirty American families who rely on it. Ready to add your voice to this important conversation? Learn how you can participate in LegCon 2026 and help shape the future of an industry that touches millions of lives.
www.TheRTOshowPodcast.com
Pete@thertoshowpodcast.com
Facebook - The RTO Show
Instagram - the_rto_show
Linkedin - The RTO Show
Youtube - The RTO Show Podcast
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Thank you, hello and welcome to the RTO Show.
(01:28):
I'm your host, pete Hsiao.
Today we're talking aboutsomething that the industry
really needs, something theindustry has done for a long
time, but if you don't knowabout it, we wanted to bring it
to you.
So here's the deal the LegCon.
I got Charles Smitherman here.
He knows all about it.
The LegCon, it's a legalconference here.
He knows all about LegCon.
It's a legal conference thatgoes on in Washington DC every
single year and CharlesSmitherman now leading as the
(01:52):
CEO of APRO, pushing thisforward.
We've had some really goodattendees, charles, the last
couple of years, but we were inthe 70s.
Now we made it to what 88 iswhat I was reading.
I got a bunch of notes up here.
We actually did a really goodjob as far as getting some new
people out here with some newprograms that we have.
But am I right in saying thisis the 31st LegCon conference?
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yeah, that's right.
I mean this has been going onfor a long time.
We took a couple of years offduring COVID not necessarily by
choice and so this is really thethird of the I guess, the
post-COVID era.
We're growing it back steadilyfrom that.
So, yeah, like you said, 88this year, that was up from, I
(02:39):
believe, 78 last year.
So we're trending in that rightdirection, trying to get to 100
.
I think that's our goal fornext year.
So we're we're trending in thatright direction, trying to get
to a hundred.
Um, I think that's our our goalfor uh, for next year.
So, uh, we're going to try todo some things to to make sure
it happens to triple digits.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
We're trying to make some triple digits.
You know what?
I definitely think we can do it.
I wanted to do this because Ithink you know every year we do
the a pro series on the RTOworld and how everybody comes
together and not only are therelearning experiences, but it's a
great shopping experience.
You know, the guys come in, allthe vendors are there, you have
Trib as part of that and then,well, we try to.
(03:13):
I'm on the membership committee.
I said you know we got it.
We've got to bring awareness tothis, because this is just as
important, if not more important, because at a certain point in
time there could be somethingthat happens.
And this is where APRO reallykind of shines.
This is the legal point ofwhere it goes.
Hey, not only do we not haveany issues right now, so this is
probably the best time topresent ourselves in front of
(03:35):
everybody that we can.
And if anybody doesn't know,the way the legal conference at
LegCon works, is that somebodyand I'm going to let you
describe this a little bitbetter somebody at APRO kind of
gets everybody together.
So all the members that want togo, that are a part of APRO, get
together and then somebody kindof mashes it all together, puts
us in our right states, puts uswith our right legislators, so
(03:56):
that we can be in front of theright people and tell them all
the benefits of what Rent to Owndoes, how we do it, how we
affect the lives of the peoplethat are our customers really
the people that make thisindustry the best that it can be
aside the employees and how wereally don't have any issues
right now.
We're pretty much governed theright way, right?
(04:17):
We don't really have any issues.
Charles, how does that work?
How does this whole salad ofyou got 88 people this year?
They're coming from all overthe US.
Like, how do you get thesepeople to be in the right place
at the right time?
All over again?
There's a lot that goes intothat.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Yeah, it is a lot.
It's a balancing act, it's a.
It's a huge puzzle to puttogether.
Huge puzzle to put together and, like you said, I mean you know
this and RTO World are the twomost important events for us of
the calendar and they representthe two sides of our mission at
APRO, that being to protect andsafeguard the industry, which is
(04:58):
what the advocacy portion does,and then to educate and to
bring people together to allowthose networking opportunities,
which is what we do at RTO World.
So it's a big event and I thinkwe apply the appropriate focus,
the resources that go intodoing this.
(05:19):
It starts now.
We're already looking forhotels, trying to get things set
up for next year and thentrying to do things like this to
just generate the raise, thelevel of awareness and the
importance of what we do up hereIn terms of the process.
We can accommodate 200 if weneed to, and so what we do is we
(05:44):
really look at what, what weget to a point.
We look at who is registered,we look at where everyone lives,
we look at where our dealershave, where they're
headquartered, where that theyhave, what districts they have
stores in, and we kind of takethat huge puzzle and start
breaking it down into pieces,and then we will set up teams.
(06:05):
We typically like to do teamsof anywhere from four or six,
even upwards of seven or eight,and then we'll separate people
into teams.
So you're not on your own.
If you haven't done this before, you don't feel comfortable
going into these offices anddoing this by yourself.
Uh, you've got plenty of peoplethere to uh, to help and
(06:26):
support and to uh, uh to havethose conversations.
Um, but it's a, it's a puzzlewe've got, fortunately I mean,
uh, I brag about our staff allthe time and we've got just some
great minds, uh, that helped dothis.
Uh, uh, particularly LisaKrabinoff too.
Too, just as if you wantsomeone to put a puzzle together
(06:47):
, she's got the right, thatanalytical mindset and the
patience and the I guess, thatdrive to be able to do it.
So she's really been, she'staken this on for us for the
past two years and I think ifyou speak to anyone that's been
either of those two years, thatcan tell you.
Well, we did this big thing atthe end where we kind of talk
(07:11):
about you know, we do a debriefdinner and one thing that came
up this year I think you mayhave even brought it up was like
what was your step count?
Speaker 1 (07:18):
You know that was part of what I was going to say
because you know, I mean, andthen there were so many people
that put in so many steps, oh,my God, it was wild.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Well, I mean, if you've ever been to DC, the
campus is huge, I mean, andyou've got the Senate on the
north side, you've got the Houseon the south side, so you've
got 100 offices in the Senate,you've got 435 in the House,
spread out over three buildings.
There are tunnels that rununderground to each of them and
multi-floors, multi-sets ofsteps, stairs going up, and it's
(07:53):
one of those.
If you did not know what youwere doing, or didn't do this
right, and you would be in ameeting in the House and a
meeting in the Senate, meetingin the House, meeting in the
Senate you could easily get30,000 steps in a day.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Yes, it's going back and forth, back and forth.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yes, what Lisa does is we usually we've been trying
to get a hotel.
We're going to try next year toget one over on the Senate side
where we can walk straight tothe Senate buildings.
All teams can start theirSenate meetings in the morning,
walk straight to the Senatebuildings, all teams can start
their Senate meetings in themorning, then go out, walk
across campus, go into the housemeetings in the afternoon, and
(08:31):
so, yeah, people had 10,000steps.
It could have been 20.
It could have been 25.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
I think this year's winner was 16,000 steps, and I
was looking at that and I said,man, what a possible way to
really have, because part ofwhat she does not only
eliminating the double-stepproblem of having to go from one
building to the next, to theback to the next is to schedule
not only in one building, butwith the people that matter for
your group.
And if anybody doesn't I'mgoing to just say this now Mike
Bennett says that his guys werethe Avengers.
(09:06):
I don't know if we're namingall the other teams, but he said
that they were the Avengers.
They're walking around and soyou have your group leaders.
Some of these group leaders,like Michael Wall, Michael
Bennett yourself was included inthat.
We have some other people thathave done it a long time.
I think what Trent Agin is oneof three or four that have done
(09:31):
it for so many years that weactually have to call it out and
recognize that they are.
They are championing this fordecades and doing a great job.
So she puts this, this, thishodgepodge, this, this, this
crazy puzzle together.
That kind of works seamlesslyin this cog.
So then we go see ourlegislative bodies.
What happens when we finallyhad that meeting, right.
So there's a breakdown and justto give you guys concept of
(09:52):
what's going on, as we gettogether the night before we
have kind of like a meetup and atalking and everybody gets to
see each other and kind of meettheir teams in the morning.
Well, this time we had twospeakers in the morning.
So who were they?
How did they matter in what'sgoing on with Washington DC and
Allegicon and why did they comeup to speak to us?
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Well, we try to do something in the morning.
Just to set the stage, lastyear we had a chief of staff
from a congresswoman's office tokind of talk about how to do
the meetings and why that theywere important, and no matter
who you were talking to, whatyour kind of goal was and how to
present it.
This year we were.
You know, there were a fewthings kind of going on in DC
(10:36):
and so we tried to and I thinkit's always good to hear from
the horse's mouth, hear from thehorse's mouth, so to speak,
when you're there.
And so we were fortunate tohave a legislative aide from
Speaker Johnson's office to comein and he really spent some
time talking about the Housepriorities, particularly the tax
(10:58):
bill that they seemed to bereally focusing on.
They had a big vote on that, orwere supposed to that day.
I think it got pushed, buteventually it did pass.
We also had a lobbyist or thedirector of legal or legislative
(11:18):
affairs from the NationalRetail Federation to come in and
talk about tariffs and he camein.
It was kind of a prescientmoment because he kind of at
that time this was at eighto'clock in the morning on
Wednesday April 9th he saidhere's what's going to happen
and there's going to be a Congoline going to the president
(11:41):
saying, hey, we can't, thiscan't be maintained.
I was with a group and about 12o'clock someone's phone started
beeping and they looked at itand saw the stock market had
basically did this and I thinkit gained about 4,000 points.
That just within a few minutes.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yeah, it was crazy because you've got so many
people on one side saying onething and other people saying
the other, and the truth is thisit's like playing the lotto you
don't know who's going to win,you don't know how the turnout's
going to be.
You just got to kind of stickto what you know.
Hopefully you pick the rightside of everything, whether you
pick certain stocks, you pick tobuy, sell whatever it is and go
from there.
I mean, what else are you goingto do?
But yeah, so we have these twopeople that come, so one of them
(12:20):
was from the Republicans inside, and then so the speaker that
came in.
Secondly, is he a lobbyist forthe Democratic side?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
He actually works for the National Retail Federation.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
So it's not one way or the other.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah, so similar association.
Like us, he's doing what we dofor advocating on retailers on
behalf of retail stores and sothat you know some more kind of
idea or needs, concerns thatthey have, that we do, and so it
was good to have him kind ofcome in and really talk, get in
(12:57):
the weeds on the tariff issuefor us, because that was the
topic of the day.
I think, yeah, everybody waslistening.
You know, I got the blinders onday.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
I think, yeah, it's a lot.
Everybody was listening.
You know, I got the blinders on, like I need to pay attention
to what's going on here.
Those two really kind of setoff in the morning, which was
great because I think you'reright, I got everybody into that
legal mode Like, hey, I'm notat the White House yet, but you
know what?
This is what we're here for,this is the stuff that we want
to hear about, because then aswe go see our legislators, it
gives us some talking pointsbesides.
Hey, we're rent to own andwe're okay.
(13:27):
It's one of those things likewe are okay, but there are
things that we always worryabout and things that we should
talk about and if anythinghappens, please let us know.
It's part of what we do aswatching everything and it's a
great thing to have to come backto every single year and then
have these new people a part ofthis as the time rolls on, and
these new members and when I saynew members, everybody I want
(13:50):
you to understand just becauseyou're a new member doesn't mean
you're new to Rent to Own.
I've seen some new members thatcame in that have been a Rent
to Own for years, years, whichwas amazing to see, because I
did Rent to Own for a while,while long, while before.
I even knew that half of thisexisted, um, and then it took
even a little bit longer to getapart, to be a part of it.
But now that I am, I couldn'timagine not doing it.
(14:12):
I couldn't imagine not being apart of it, because, you know,
everybody wears a differentshirt, but we're all doing the
same thing, and so we've got toadvocate together, as far as
legally, to make sure that ourindustry is thriving and stays
good.
And then we'll go back tocompeting later on, right, and
then we got, uh, I'm gonna tellyou right now, we got the
avengers on one side.
And then I hear mr supermanhimself, michael wall, from
(14:34):
aaron's uh, the director ofoperations.
Right now, what is he?
The director of?
Uh of affairs, corporateaffairs.
And he, so he's there and, um,everybody, I, I, I, I can't, I
can't imagine anybody not.
I think everybody on his team,and even some people not on his
team, were just like super happythat he was there, because not
only did he uh help everybody inthose, those moments where you
(14:55):
know, hey, you might be new,don't worry about it.
I will help you out and showyou.
But he did it with such flairand panache.
It was like like this is hisdeal, this is like I think he
just clocked in on a normal day.
Hey, I'm at the white house,this is, you know, this is like
what I do for lunch, you know.
Like he just did it so well, umand, and kind of helped guide
these people talking about newpeople, whether they've been in
the business, not been in thebusiness.
(15:16):
There's a fellows program.
Now, this is something that is.
Is this new to what ledge conis doing?
Because I don't rememberhearing about it before.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Yeah.
So this is something we startedlast year and I give my case
the credit for this becausewe're, you know, as a vendor
member, this is to come toLegCon.
We require sponsorship.
It's, you know, just to kind ofcontrol the ratio and numbers,
and it's an important and a goodway to really support the
(15:46):
industry through this importanteffort.
And so we're talking to Mikebut Jen truck and I about the
sponsorship opportunities forLedgeCon, and Ashley is a
champion for the industry, theyalways are a top line sponsor
for, for everything.
And Mike would kind of came inand said well, here's something
I'd like to do.
I'd like to bring in peoplethat have never been before and
(16:11):
you know they'll probably be ourcustomers because we sell to
pretty much everyone and thenthat we can expose them to it
and get you know, have themtrained, and then hopefully they
come back or they get involvedon the state level or in some
way.
And so we kind of took thatidea and really ran with it.
Ashley chipped in for a fewlast year I think they did five
(16:31):
or seven, a lot.
So we took that idea and thatconcept of okay, we're going to
fund the hotel and some travelaround DC.
You've just got to get toWashington.
Some travel around DC.
You just got to get toWashington.
Your qualifications arebasically you got to be a first
timer in the rent own industry,working full time for a store.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
That's not many boxes .
Speaker 2 (16:53):
That's not many boxes , and that's the thing.
And so it's really it's, it's a, it's available out there.
You just have to have thesupport of your supervisor to
sign off for you to do it.
So we had a few stateassociations that chipped in and
said, okay, we'll put in for ascholarship or two here or
fellowship, and so we had 10last year and that was a great
(17:16):
start.
I think really the idea of theprogram is to bring new people
in.
So you've got people who havenever been to DC before.
I think you hit on it.
It's an eye-opening experienceIf you're in your store every
day, if you're kind of new tothe industry, or even if you've
been in the industry but youhaven't gotten this exposure to
(17:37):
a RTO world or a meeting of theminds or a legislative
conference.
You don't really understand, Ithink.
Or a legislative conference,you don't really understand, I
think, conceptually how big andimportant this industry is and
what this program does is Ithink it's an enabler for that
(17:59):
it provides a pathway to be ableto one to go to DC see what we
do up there.
But second, too, we have a lotand you mentioned this we've got
a lot of people that have beendoing this for a long time.
We've got a couple of guys thathave been Shannon Strong and
Larry Carrico, I think are tiedat 27.
Can you imagine that they missedfour.
(18:23):
So that's incredible, um, butwe've got a lot of guys, uh,
that have been doing this for 10, 15, 20 plus years, uh, and
that's a lot of experience.
I mean, you mentioned Michael,michael.
I like walking around withMichael because he knows which
which stairways to take and howto get which uh entrance to go
in when the security line's toolong.
(18:43):
Um, uh, so he's a great personto have.
But we've got all these guysthat have been doing this for a
long time that they know how totalk to the legislators, they
know how to talk to the aides,they know how to promote the
industry and kind of it's just Iknow it's been beneficial for
me to be sitting down to go to ameeting with Larry, beneficial
for me to be sitting down to goto a meeting with Larry, to go
(19:04):
to a meeting with Michael, withthese experienced guys, and hear
how they characterize and talkabout RTO, how they talk about
the transaction, and I believeLarry, he talked about this at
the debrief meeting that night.
But he goes in and tells peoplewe provide cold milk, we
(19:26):
provide a good night's sleep,Just that total reframing of
we're not.
We don't just do rentrefrigerators, we give you cold
milk, we don't rent a mattress,we give you a good night's sleep
to get you energized, refreshed, to be able to go back and do
what we do, and that that kindof reframing.
That's a.
That's huge.
(19:46):
I mean just from ourperspective, from hearing we
learn from each other and we'vegot so much knowledge, and just
institutional knowledge, withthis group of guys and women
that have been doing this for along time, and so to bring that
back together, the fellowshipprogram is a way to introduce
people who haven't done thisbefore to this institutional
(20:08):
knowledge that we have with thisexperience.
And so someone can go in andthey can go into a meeting with
a Michael Bennett or a MichaelWall or Shannon Strunk or Larry
Carrico or Trent Agin and hearthem talk about it.
That then will carry over forthe future, and so this is a
(20:28):
sustainability project becauseyou know, people retire, they
sell their businesses.
There's a limit on how many moretimes that a lot of our
experienced guys will be coming,and we've got to grow.
Our next generation will becoming and we've got to grow our
next generation.
So when we're up there, 40years from now, they can tell
(20:53):
the story of.
I went around with LarryCarrico and heard him tell the
story.
I went around with David Davidand heard him tell the story
this way, and so that's whatreally what we're trying to do
with this fellowship program,and I think it's just a, it's a
great way to accomplish a numberof goals.
And so I'll tell you this wehad 10 fellows last year, we had
15 this year, so we grew it.
I'm really hoping we're gonnagrow to 20 next year.
(21:14):
Um, but of the 10 we had lastyear and this kind of shows you
kind of the I think we've gottraction with this we had five
that came back, so half of ourclass 20, 20.
And back in 25, if we canreplicate even a portion of that
going forward.
That's what helps us grow from78 to 88 to 100.
(21:38):
And that's what keeps us at 100people going back each year to
do this, because it's important.
I mean, this is what we're herefor, here for, and this is what
just the core part of keepingthe industry safe and advocating
for it and really telling thegood things about rent to own to
(21:59):
the people that make the lawsand the regulations that control
it.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Well, I'll tell you one thing if it keeps on going
this way, lisa's going to needan assistant pretty soon, and
the fellowship program is agreat way because it sounds
almost like an apprenticeshipprogram.
If I wanted to be somebody inan industry like, let's say,
plumbing, I've got to standbehind somebody who's done it
(22:26):
for a while.
I've got to learn.
It's easy to say, these are thebook ways, how to do it.
You connect the pipe, you bendit over, that's the way it is
and then you go out in the realworld and you're going to have a
master plumber go.
Yeah, hold on, there's a way todo this.
We don't want the house toflood.
So, going out with theseexperienced people who have
decades, decades of timeframe,and not only that, their
(22:53):
day-to-day is not our day-to-day, our day-to-day is not their
day-to-day.
So they take these, not onlythe years that they've been the
ledge come, but they take theirday-to-day, which are
experiences that we might nothave or their experiences that
we don't know about, and we getto all pull that together into a
conversation and I havedefinitely seen some lights go
off.
Um, being there two years, II've seen people that last year
were kind of very timid on theinside.
(23:14):
They said stuff, but kind ofsat back a little bit to
becoming hey, let me tell youabout my industry.
And it's so different to hearthem talk that way, because last
year they were all like, oh myGod, I'm in some legislator's
office, I'm where CNN standswhen they have the camera, and
now we're here, actually on theother side of it, really doing
the work that needs to get doneto represent the industry in a
(23:36):
certain way.
And so they start coming out ofthat shell and that fellowship
program of being able to be withthose guys that have done it
for years and years and put itin a certain way and say things
a certain way.
It's it goes twofold it's notonly being able to you know,
experience them and them beingable to guide you, but also, you
know, every once in a whileyou've got to expect that
(23:57):
there's going to be a legislatorto say something that you know,
ask you a question, going toput it in a different way.
I'm going to put this in adifferent light and tell you you
know, how does this reallyblatantly affect my constituents
in a good way, really blatantlyaffect my constituents in a
good way?
I hear that there's this or Ihear that there's that, and not
only having somebody there witha little experience can say well
, this is why this is what'sgoing on.
(24:19):
You know, with always one,there comes another.
This is where it comes from andthis is how it goes.
And there's, you know, thelifetime reinstatement and all
this stuff.
So, you know, letting them knowit's.
You're going to hear what youhear on certain social medias,
you know TikTok, whatever.
But to sit down in front of thepeople that actually do it
every day, let me explain to youhow it works.
Like you said, being able toframe it in that other way and
say you know, it's not just theproduct we sell us, the
(24:41):
experience at home that you havewith your family that makes a
difference.
And this is, this is what we doon a day-to-day basis.
This is how we, you know, thisis how we became the industry
that we've become.
And as, as I've been able togrow in the industry, I hear and
see all these things from like,let's say, a pro started ledge
calm 31 years ago.
(25:03):
There's a lot of things thatare older than that, right, and
you've got tire industry.
That's older than that.
You've got the furnitureindustry that's older than that.
You've got a lot of things thatare old, but we're not that old
.
And we have the people that yousay 31 years and somebody like
Carrico has been there for 27 ofthem.
Well, he's almost a resource,but started this thing in the
(25:30):
beginning and we still have theability to really kind of look
at, follow, talk to andexperience this with the
pioneers that have really helpedget us to where we are.
And I love the fellowshipprogram.
I love the fellows program.
I think it's a great idea.
I was talking to a couple ofpeople and to hear that it was
(25:52):
their first time.
And you know, here I am.
I'm thinking I'm a new kid onthe block.
You know there's about four newkids on the block.
We're going to start our groupNow.
It was more.
And when I was like you'vereally never been.
No, I've never been.
And the program really reachesinto those small areas of rent
(26:19):
to own and say, hey, you want tocome out here, you want to try
this out, you want to be a partof this.
I love the idea.
Mike, if you're listening, weappreciate it.
We think you did a great jobhere, but we are going to take
it a run.
So the amount of people whenthey come in and you have these
multi, you know multi-decadetype people how does so lisa
(26:39):
tries to divide them up with.
You know, we're trying to getthe the most experience, with a
couple of non-experienced inthere so they can kind of follow
everybody around.
And then, um, at the end of theday, you talked about the
debrief.
So we're there, we're talkingto them, we get through the day,
we can finally let our hairdown.
Oh my God, I talked to thisperson, I saw this person in the
(26:59):
hallway and that because Ithink this year we spotted two
legislators that are always onTV.
We managed to see them.
So then we get to the debriefdinner.
How important is that?
I mean, what's the guidancebehind this debrief dinner and
how does it get everybody backto dinner?
What is the point of?
Speaker 2 (27:16):
that.
So you know it's the bookendfor the conference.
We do the reception the nightbefore, we'll do the breakfast
and that's kind of the send-offand then you know it's really we
always try to find somewhereunique.
You know, this year, last yearwe were at the Daughters of
American Revolution, which was areally cool old.
You know all-on-all.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Yeah, all that was awesome.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
That was awesome Ellipse.
This year we were out at Top ofthe Town, which is an event
function space in Arlington, butit has the complete panoramic
view of the entire city, all themonuments.
You can see everything from thewindows and the rooftop open
bar that they've got up there.
(28:00):
So it's just an incrediblething, one to kind of step back.
You've had a long day.
It's kind of relax and tonetwork and to talk to everyone
about their day.
Kind of relax and to networkand to talk to everyone about
their day.
We started doing something lastyear that was kind of an open
(28:21):
mic and we continued it thisyear.
Where it was, we did likeprompts, where, okay, I advocate
for this industry, because Icome to LegCon, because and to
allow really everyone to kind oftell their story.
You know, that's thefundamental basic thing of all
of this, of all of advocacy Ifyou're doing it right, it's
(28:42):
storytelling and that's why Ilike bringing a fellow in that
can tell their story.
I was in one meeting with oneof our fellows and she told her
story about how that she becamea guy that got a job in rent to
own and then became a regionalmanager.
And you know I'm sitting therelistening to it, I'm looking
around, I'm like.
(29:02):
I'm like I'm not crying, you'recrying and you know it.
Just that's what's powerful andthat's what's memorable for
this.
We give you all this data.
Here's our industry health.
We rent-own.
One out of every 30 familiesuses the rent-own transaction.
You know it's a $12 billionindustry.
(29:22):
We throw all this stuff out.
We've got papers, we haveleave-behinds, we do all that
stuff.
But it's that storytellingduring those meetings.
That is what really resonatesand what's memorable.
And then this is kind of ouropportunity to do that a bit of
that storytelling with eachother and to share that Like
(29:43):
here's why I come to LedgeCon.
I mean it's a you know we're at, it's an ask.
It's an ask.
I mean I recognize that we'reasking you to take time out of
your schedule midweek to come toWashington DC to do this, to go
through that expense, give upyour time away all together.
(30:08):
That's the, that's what the tiein.
And so we started doing the,this kind of open mic, and we
want to try to get everyone atleast a representative from each
team that could kind of come upand share a little bit
something that happened duringthe day, that was memorable or
impactful or something that youknow of real significance and
(30:30):
you know, and it's, it can be,it's intended to be, I mean it's
, you know it's it can beemotional, I mean, you know,
just listening to it, but it, Ithink the takeaway, if you sit
through to me, that's myfavorite.
I mean all of this is great.
That's the, that's thehighlight of the whole thing is
hearing everyone's story oftheir day and then really even
(30:52):
deeper for their story of whythey come and advocate for the
industry.
And here's some really powerfulthings with that.
And I think that just in termsof understanding how big this
industry is and how important itis and how it touches so many
lives, and just from theconsumers to the employees, to
the, to our vendor, suppliers,to owners, all just across the
(31:17):
whole spectrum, that's a, it'sthe capstone for the event.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Yeah, Well, you know talking about different things
and and I want to I want to kindof encapsulate some of the
reasons why we go.
Because obviously, if nobodyunderstands why we go Because
obviously if nobody understandswhy we go, it's fun to say it's
a lot harder to get them tounderstand that this is why.
So a couple of things that cameup last year was you know,
there was talk that a little bitof the CFPB and kind of maybe
(31:46):
wanting to look to, you know,put RTO in a different area, to
look to put RTO in a differentarea, but we're not credit-based
.
So we have to have the advocacythere to say let me re-educate
some of the people who reallydon't know about rent-to-own and
say this is not a credittransaction and the laws of the
CFPB and how they regulate itwill drastically affect this $11
(32:09):
, $12 billion industry andthere's a lot of people that are
affected by that, not only thecustomers that use us every day,
but the employees and theowners that we have.
I mean, your $12 billion isn'tsmall and I know every time we
talk about, oh, we're sendingsomebody this or we're spending
that, we're talking aboutnumbers that people will never
see in their lifetime and thisis something that's shared with
every single store owner, everysingle employee, every single
(32:32):
person that drives a truck toowning the business.
It affects all of us.
So in those types of situationsit's super important.
Right now there's a bill in NewYork and I think we're kind of
jockeying back and forth, but inthat state it's important to
that state.
And now the New York RentalDealers Association, with Jeff
Smith as president I knowyourself is gone and it seems
like we're getting some headwayin that.
(32:53):
Hopefully it works out for thebetterment of everything.
But you know, these thingshappen all the time where
something's going on in theworld.
So I should say, in our fourwalls of the United States of
America, we have to be thereApril has to be there to kind of
do it, and if you think itdoesn't come up, it does there.
April has to be there to kindof do it, and if you think it
(33:13):
doesn't come up, it does so.
Things like that and thingslike New York and things like
the CFPB and how they relate toour transactions, maybe putting
us in a different tax situation,well, it does affect us.
So if you think that we just goup there and say hi, it's not
really that, but it's great tosay, hey, we are doing well,
we're highly regulated, thingsare working out and there's
these small things too.
If we can keep an eye out forthem, please let us know so that
we can advocate on our behalfin those areas and in those
(33:36):
arenas.
Just to kind of say how is NewYork going?
Are we past?
Speaker 2 (33:41):
this or we still got a little bit to go.
New York, that's a greatexample, all right, of why this
is important, of why this isimportant?
Because for years, apro and theindustry advocated for a
federal bill to classify therent-to-owner transaction as a
lease, pure and simple.
It's lease, not credit sale.
(34:02):
Along with that, while thateffort went on for really the
better part of I think, 25, 30years, until it was kind of
abandoned prior to Dodd-Frank inthe early mid-2000s, in
(34:22):
parallel to that was the statelaws being passed, and so we've
got 46 state statutes that werepassed, really beginning.
New York's a great example 1986.
I believe the New York statutewas passed.
It was amended in 2009.
And so we've got lots ofamendments.
If there's an issue with thetransaction, with the
disclosures, with the timings,any of these obligations, it
(34:46):
gets addressed in the statute.
And that is what we go to DC tosay leave us alone.
We're regulated on the statelevel and it works well.
And if we have an issue, alocal issue, we can work with
that legislator on addressingwhat the requirements are on the
statute, rather than coming inwith kind of this heavy-handed
(35:11):
approach of the CFPB being thefederal regulator.
I mean, we're regulated by theFTC on that federal level.
That works.
That's the way it has been fordecades, and so that's kind of
the argument on the CFPB iswe're not credit and therefore
we don't need to becharacterized as credit.
On the CFPB is we're not creditand therefore we don't need to
(35:32):
be characterized as credit.
So what's happened in New Yorkis really what we're trying to
prevent with all of theselegislative days.
What we're trying to prevent inDC is, if we're not up there
telling our story, someone'sgoing to tell it for us, and
that's kind of what's happenedin New York.
You've got consumer groups thathave told our story for us.
They've lumped us in with fiveother relatively new fintech
(35:55):
modern products that have onlyexisted for really the better
part of the past five, seven,ten years, not a rent-to-own
transaction that's been around,for I think Aaron's is
celebrating their 70thanniversary.
You know April's been aroundsince 1980.
This is established.
We've got state laws that canback that up, and so when we
(36:17):
were in New York, there wereseveral lobbying teams working.
I was up there with Jeff andthe New York Rental Doers
Association back at thebeginning of February and that
was our message of hey, wepassed this law in 1986.
We worked with you to amend itin 2009.
If there's a problem with it,let's talk, but this is not.
(36:40):
This is you're completelyeviscerating it and I don't
think anybody will know how thisthing will work if you pass
this new one that disregards 40,almost 40 years of history and
precedent.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Yeah, Of stable regulation.
That's kind of it.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
And then you've also got the other issue too is we're
picking our poison in a lot ofways.
We don't want to be regulatedat the federal level and there
are a lot of reasons we don't.
And I know, Ed I think he wason your podcast recently he went
through a lot of some of thosereasons we don't.
But it know, ed, I think he wason your podcast recently he
went through a lot of some ofthose reasons we don't.
But it's a hydra.
You know, cfpb has beenkneecapped right now with some
(37:20):
of the things going on with thenew administration.
But that just means there are50 other opportunities for that
cause to be taken up.
And I think we saw that duringthe first Trump administration.
We're going to see it in thesecond Trump administration.
New York, in addition to thebill we're fighting up there,
has just introduced a it's kindof a mini CFPB bill that adds
(37:45):
the element of abusive to theUDAP enforcement of the Attorney
General's office.
So you've got kind of anexpansion of what they can do,
which is what the CFPB was doing.
We'll see that in other statesthat expertise and all of those
personnel that work for the CFPBaren't going to quit their jobs
(38:08):
, they're going to findsomewhere to go.
And so that means that we'vegot to fight even harder on
these state levels.
And so that's what's going onin New York.
That bill, we had a billintroduced last March.
It was pending in both houses.
Basically, the clock ran outwhen they adjourned at the
(38:30):
beginning of June.
We're in the same situationthis year.
Identical bills were introducedin both houses.
There They've been reallyfocused on their budget.
So that's really taken themajority of the past two and a
half months plus of theirlegislative time.
And so I think things are aboutto get very busy over the
(38:52):
course of the next six weeks.
And so New York I'm going backup there with Jeff and the team
and Michael while here in acouple of weeks to continue
those conversations.
And we've been having thoseconversations since literally
ongoing consistently since thistime last year conversations.
And we've been having thoseconversations since literally
ongoing consistently since thistime last year.
(39:13):
And so we've got to tell ourstory and why that we are the
odd man out of this.
And whenever you've got thesearguments of okay, we've got a
statute, these other ones don't,we're not credit.
These other ones are.
(39:33):
That resonates a lot better andit's a lot easier too whenever
you've established thoserelationships and you become
that resource, which is whatreally?
A lot of what.
The strategy in DC and theother legislative days that
we're doing it's preemptive.
Dc and the other legislativedays that we're doing it's
preemptive, so we're not havingto react and really mobilize
(39:58):
which is what's happening in NewYork right now making new?
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Now, I mean in a layman's term sort of way, do we
get lumped in because we takeregular payments, just like, you
know, a credit card, but notnecessarily the same way, and
they kind of just scooped it allin one salad and they're going
to regulate this and they don'treally understand what's going
on.
Or were we literally cherrypicked out because to them it
(40:20):
seems like a credit transaction,even though it's been defined
as not?
Speaker 2 (40:25):
I don't think it's either of those those.
I think in New York we werelumped in by consumer groups
that were you've got productsthat aren't regulated.
They're really where we were inthe 80s and we chose to be
regulated.
(40:45):
Okay, here's how we want to beregulated like this We'll agree
to these disclosures.
We'll agree to a rentalagreement that says this We'll
agree to doing these thingsduring the terms of the lease
and post-lease.
We chose that and we pushed it,and so this is how we wanted to
be regulated.
(41:06):
In exchange for not beingcharacterized as a credit
transaction and being subject toall these other regulations.
In exchange for not beingcharacterized as a credit
transaction and being subject toall these other regulations.
What's happening there isyou've got new products that
aren't.
They're round pegs trying to befit, or square pegs fitting
around holes, however you wantto characterize it, but they
don't have that.
You've got to build things likeearned wage access, which is
(41:27):
like payday, but it's notexactly payday loans.
You've got a buy now, pay later, which didn't exist five years
ago, 10 years ago.
That's gotten very big.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
So you know but they don't have a regulatory scheme
They've got.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
They're trying to be fit in.
Okay, well, this looks like aloan, so we're going to throw
you under the lending creditprovisions or regulations here,
and so they're kind of where.
We were just kind of trying tofigure out where they belong.
This is a sledgehammer of likeOK, we're going to, we're going
to do all of this without reallyaddressing some of these other
(42:06):
things on it as well.
Oh yeah, I guess we you knowthis concern.
We still don't like those guyseither, so we're going to throw
them into it.
I mean literally the, the, thebill is being the code name or
the, the moniker I guess it'sbeen given for the one in New
York is in in one Elsa in loanshark act.
Okay, great, end it.
(42:29):
I mean that's that sounds.
I think we would all agree thatno one should be out alone
(42:51):
sharking and doing that, but'renot up there saying that like,
yeah, sure, that sounds, rentdone, sounds like any of these
other things.
I mean that's kind of theperception.
That is the constant battlethat we are fighting and it may
seem like, okay, nothing's goingon in DC, but we are setting.
If we're not harvesting, we'replanting seeds and it is a cycle
(43:14):
and we've got to becontinuously on this, at all
times, persistently,consistently.
It is not something that youcan just do reactionary, and
hope to have that be aneffective strategy and hope to
be successful with it.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
Well, Charles, I got a question Are we going to see
you on some kind of C-SPAN orsomething like?
Speaker 2 (43:34):
that?
Are you going to be in front ofa?
Speaker 1 (43:35):
congressional hearing .
You know the CEO of APRO, wehave you here and you're going
to be sitting in front of acouple of senators and they're
going to be like.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
let me tell you, I would do it.
That's kind of like being incourt.
I mean, I was a litigator forthe beginning of my career and
you never want to be in court inthat situation.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
Yeah right, right, avoid at all costs.
So there's, you know, theimportance is there, the
tradition is there, theexperience and the fellows is
there and we're bringing allthis together and it's great to
hear that out of COVID we'rehitting some great numbers.
We're expanding year after year.
If you guys want to be a partof the fellow program, please
(44:19):
let us know.
Reach out to April.
It's rtohqorg and you canfigure out how to do the fellows
program from there.
At the time next year we willhave a link to a from our
website at the rto showpodcastcom, so that you can find
it anywhere you can.
But one last question I wantedto ask is in your opinion, what
was something different thathappened this year that stood
(44:42):
out, something that you couldsay you know what?
Uh, every year there's alwaysthat one thing that happens, or
two things that happens.
What's something that happenedwith charles or with the group
or whatever that you say thiswas unique to this year?
Speaker 2 (44:53):
Yeah, you know, it's always different, no matter what
time you go up there.
It's just different.
You know, I would say and Imean just even just going back
to the fellow thing, I mean thatbeing up there, we do that,
like I said, we do a recognition.
At the end of them, werecognize the people that have
(45:14):
been there.
For, you know, here's our fiveplus year category, here's our
10 plus years, our 15, we, andwe have a lot of people, uh, we,
we actually started, uh theyused to do this a long time ago
but we brought it back last yearwhere if you've been there for
five plus years, you get acertain pin, like a lapel pin.
They're nice, big, shiny, thatyou know we started doing that
(45:44):
to kind of recognize people.
But there's an element of kindof when you go in and you do the
same meetings with the same themessaging is you get kind of in
a routine and rhythm with thatmessaging and so really kind of
being in the in the room andsome of the meetings with the
fellows and and particularlywith the ones you know it's
(46:06):
intimidating to go up there.
If you've never done this, Imean we try to do everything, we
try we do a training program.
We do a pre a web, apre-conference webinar.
We do the training at breakfast.
We really try to put peoplewith teams of experienced people
, but it's still an intimidatingthing to go through up to one
of those buildings.
You're standing beside theCapitol, you go in through
(46:27):
security and you're in thehallways and you're passing
these people.
You see on CNN or Fox or C-SPANor whatever you know.
You're seeing these people,you're seeing the podiums,
you're seeing all this stuff.
I mean it's an intimidatingatmosphere, particularly if you
haven't done it much.
(46:47):
And so, really, kind of being inthe room with some of these
fellows that were notintimidated for whatever reason,
to speak and to tell, and likeyou know kind of where, that
thing of what I said withstorytelling, and be able to
tell that story, that's whatresonates when you're meeting
with you know congressmen,congresswomen that are
(47:09):
representing your district, andto be able to kind of go and say
, well, I'm from this small townor I'm from here and I used to
went to this high school and I,you know, know these people and,
uh, this is how I got into rentto own, uh, and we service the
people in this area of this town, that that, that that kind of
(47:29):
thing is powerful and thatresonates.
And so, yeah, there was and Ijoked about that I literally was
tearing up listening to, uh, to, to one of these uh and uh,
just, uh, just incredible uhstory to hear that and that's
not, you know, this is a uniqueatmosphere and opportunity to
share that we don't.
You know, this isn't kind of auh, something we would do at RTO
(48:02):
world or at a state associationmeeting.
It's a unique situation,scenario, specific thing to be
able to kind of tell that.
And so, yeah, that was probablythe highlight.
I think I'll remember some ofthese.
Just that happened this yearfor a long time and for me it's
a learning experience for me.
I've been doing this for awhile, not only with APRO but
with other associations, doinglegislative days and doing these
(48:22):
type of meetings and you know,I learn something new every time
and ways to polish the approachand new ideas to share.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
I love that policy approach.
That's a great way to put it,because it does deep polishing.
I'll tell you, one of the mostunique things that I noticed
this time around was number one,was the stories.
The stories did hit home, andto hear that you have people
that become customers, thatbecome employees, that become
advocates for the industry,that's a win.
(48:50):
That's a win all the way around.
But one of the other things thatstuck out to me that was really
unique this year was there wasprobably three to four meetings
that we had where we came in andwe started talking.
We said, listen, there reallyisn't any pressing issue right
now, but we wanted to.
And they just do what?
Like I just got through withlike 45 minutes of getting
(49:23):
somebody just chewing on my earabout what's going on here.
Let's fix this.
And oh my God, what are youdoing?
Because we mentioned I mean youmentioned it before it's a new
administration.
We're going to do it this wayas opposed to that way.
We're going to try new things.
And so they've had those peoplelike hey, wait a minute, we're
upsetting the apple cart.
I'm going to tell you why thisis good or bad for me, or
whatever, whatever.
And then we come in and theyget 15 minutes of wait.
A minute Wait, you're notyelling at me, you're not
(49:47):
telling me that we're you knowwhatever.
We're having a civilconversation about an industry
that I might not know that muchabout, and it was great to just
how it went along.
I was so shocked of howappreciative they were for us to
be preemptive, versus, on theother side of it, to say, hey,
oh, my God, we have this bigproblem, we need your help, we
(50:07):
need you to do this, we need youto do that.
And it was like, oh, wait aminute, I can sit here and
actually listen to you what youhave to say without putting on a
defense and I can't answer that.
I can't say this.
And we had some really goodconversations.
I think we had some eye-openingconversations and for me, that
was a really unique part ofLedgeCon doing this, making sure
(50:28):
that I can say to the peoplethat are around me I've done
what I can for this industry andI'm going to keep on doing it
as much as I humanly can.
So, on my second year, guys, Ihave not experienced by any
means, but hopefully one day,besides all the steps that I
have, I will be coaching andmentoring maybe somebody else in
the far future, but we'll seehow that goes.
Charles, I'm so glad that yougot to be here.
(50:49):
I wish Edwin would have beenhere this year.
He did, he did, he was on thepodcast.
He's always so full ofknowledge.
I love talking to Ed.
He's so good at it.
But you know, ledgecon 2025 wasan absolute success 88 people
Fellows is growing.
We want to break the threedigit mark and that means we
(51:10):
need you to hit us up so Aprilof next year.
Speaker 2 (51:15):
We've got beds for hotels right now, so I think we
may have that lined up.
That's it.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
That's it.
We're putting a marker on thistimestamp.
So if you guys want to be apart of it, keep on watching,
following us and followingwhat's going on.
Again, go to RTOHQ next year.
You can even start it.
I think we start off at the endof January or February when we
start getting the registrationstogether.
That's a great time for you tofigure out what's going on and
if you can make it and I promiseyou, if you tell your boss, hey
(51:43):
, listen, I'm advocating so thatwe can keep this open I
guarantee you they're going togive you a couple of days off.
Not only that Washington DC isso full of history, I will tell
you this.
I did stay a little bit longer.
I went for LegCon, I stayed forDC, I got to see the
Constitution, I got to see theBill of Rights.
I mean, there's so much goingon.
There's all the Smithsonian'swhere you can see all of our
(52:05):
culture, all of our history.
There's so much.
There's Arlington NationalCemetery and if you ever want to
do something crazy, if you everget a group of people together
or whatever, the top of the townwas amazing.
Those views, charles will tellyou they were great, they were
good in the daytime.
They were even better at night,when everything was lit up and
you've got the backgrounds.
You've got the WashingtonMonument Absolutely gorgeous.
(52:27):
Well, if you guys have anyquestions, always reach out to
me.
It's Pete at theRTOshowpodcastcom.
Always feel free to hit us inDMs on Facebook, instagram,
linkedin and on YouTube.
Now make sure you subscribe,and this is what we do, guys.
This is how we make theindustry work.
Charles Smitherman, from April,we are so happy that you got to
be here and I'm going to tellyou guys, as always, get your
(52:49):
collections low, thanks.
Sales high, thank you.
Thank you, hello and welcome to the RTO Show.
(01:28):
I'm your host, pete Hsiao.
Today we're talking aboutsomething that the industry
really needs, something theindustry has done for a long
time, but if you don't knowabout it, we wanted to bring it
to you.
So here's the deal the LegCon.
I got Charles Smitherman here.
He knows all about it.
The LegCon, it's a legalconference here.
He knows all about LegCon.
It's a legal conference thatgoes on in Washington DC every
single year and CharlesSmitherman now leading as the
(01:52):
CEO of APRO, pushing thisforward.
We've had some really goodattendees, charles, the last
couple of years, but we were inthe 70s.
Now we made it to what 88 iswhat I was reading.
I got a bunch of notes up here.
We actually did a really goodjob as far as getting some new
people out here with some newprograms that we have.
But am I right in saying thisis the 31st LegCon conference?
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yeah, that's right.
I mean this has been going onfor a long time.
We took a couple of years offduring COVID not necessarily by
choice and so this is really thethird of the I guess, the
post-COVID era.
We're growing it back steadilyfrom that.
So, yeah, like you said, 88this year, that was up from, I
(02:39):
believe, 78 last year.
So we're trending in that rightdirection, trying to get to 100
.
I think that's our goal fornext year.
So we're we're trending in thatright direction, trying to get
to a hundred.
Um, I think that's our our goalfor uh, for next year.
So, uh, we're going to try todo some things to to make sure
it happens to triple digits.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
We're trying to make some triple digits.
You know what?
I definitely think we can do it.
I wanted to do this because Ithink you know every year we do
the a pro series on the RTOworld and how everybody comes
together and not only are therelearning experiences, but it's a
great shopping experience.
You know, the guys come in, allthe vendors are there, you have
Trib as part of that and then,well, we try to.
(03:13):
I'm on the membership committee.
I said you know we got it.
We've got to bring awareness tothis, because this is just as
important, if not more important, because at a certain point in
time there could be somethingthat happens.
And this is where APRO reallykind of shines.
This is the legal point ofwhere it goes.
Hey, not only do we not haveany issues right now, so this is
probably the best time topresent ourselves in front of
(03:35):
everybody that we can.
And if anybody doesn't know,the way the legal conference at
LegCon works, is that somebodyand I'm going to let you
describe this a little bitbetter somebody at APRO kind of
gets everybody together.
So all the members that want togo, that are a part of APRO, get
together and then somebody kindof mashes it all together, puts
us in our right states, puts uswith our right legislators, so
(03:56):
that we can be in front of theright people and tell them all
the benefits of what Rent to Owndoes, how we do it, how we
affect the lives of the peoplethat are our customers really
the people that make thisindustry the best that it can be
aside the employees and how wereally don't have any issues
right now.
We're pretty much governed theright way, right?
(04:17):
We don't really have any issues.
Charles, how does that work?
How does this whole salad ofyou got 88 people this year?
They're coming from all overthe US.
Like, how do you get thesepeople to be in the right place
at the right time?
All over again?
There's a lot that goes intothat.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Yeah, it is a lot.
It's a balancing act, it's a.
It's a huge puzzle to puttogether.
Huge puzzle to put together and, like you said, I mean you know
this and RTO World are the twomost important events for us of
the calendar and they representthe two sides of our mission at
APRO, that being to protect andsafeguard the industry, which is
(04:58):
what the advocacy portion does,and then to educate and to
bring people together to allowthose networking opportunities,
which is what we do at RTO World.
So it's a big event and I thinkwe apply the appropriate focus,
the resources that go intodoing this.
(05:19):
It starts now.
We're already looking forhotels, trying to get things set
up for next year and thentrying to do things like this to
just generate the raise, thelevel of awareness and the
importance of what we do up hereIn terms of the process.
We can accommodate 200 if weneed to, and so what we do is we
(05:44):
really look at what, what weget to a point.
We look at who is registered,we look at where everyone lives,
we look at where our dealershave, where they're
headquartered, where that theyhave, what districts they have
stores in, and we kind of takethat huge puzzle and start
breaking it down into pieces,and then we will set up teams.
(06:05):
We typically like to do teamsof anywhere from four or six,
even upwards of seven or eight,and then we'll separate people
into teams.
So you're not on your own.
If you haven't done this before, you don't feel comfortable
going into these offices anddoing this by yourself.
Uh, you've got plenty of peoplethere to uh, to help and
(06:26):
support and to uh, uh to havethose conversations.
Um, but it's a, it's a puzzlewe've got, fortunately I mean,
uh, I brag about our staff allthe time and we've got just some
great minds, uh, that helped dothis.
Uh, uh, particularly LisaKrabinoff too.
Too, just as if you wantsomeone to put a puzzle together
(06:47):
, she's got the right, thatanalytical mindset and the
patience and the I guess, thatdrive to be able to do it.
So she's really been, she'staken this on for us for the
past two years and I think ifyou speak to anyone that's been
either of those two years, thatcan tell you.
Well, we did this big thing atthe end where we kind of talk
(07:11):
about you know, we do a debriefdinner and one thing that came
up this year I think you mayhave even brought it up was like
what was your step count?
Speaker 1 (07:18):
You know that was part of what I was going to say
because you know, I mean, andthen there were so many people
that put in so many steps, oh,my God, it was wild.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Well, I mean, if you've ever been to DC, the
campus is huge, I mean, andyou've got the Senate on the
north side, you've got the Houseon the south side, so you've
got 100 offices in the Senate,you've got 435 in the House,
spread out over three buildings.
There are tunnels that rununderground to each of them and
multi-floors, multi-sets ofsteps, stairs going up, and it's
(07:53):
one of those.
If you did not know what youwere doing, or didn't do this
right, and you would be in ameeting in the House and a
meeting in the Senate, meetingin the House, meeting in the
Senate you could easily get30,000 steps in a day.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Yes, it's going back and forth, back and forth.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yes, what Lisa does is we usually we've been trying
to get a hotel.
We're going to try next year toget one over on the Senate side
where we can walk straight tothe Senate buildings.
All teams can start theirSenate meetings in the morning,
walk straight to the Senatebuildings, all teams can start
their Senate meetings in themorning, then go out, walk
across campus, go into the housemeetings in the afternoon, and
(08:31):
so, yeah, people had 10,000steps.
It could have been 20.
It could have been 25.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
I think this year's winner was 16,000 steps, and I
was looking at that and I said,man, what a possible way to
really have, because part ofwhat she does not only
eliminating the double-stepproblem of having to go from one
building to the next, to theback to the next is to schedule
not only in one building, butwith the people that matter for
your group.
And if anybody doesn't I'mgoing to just say this now Mike
Bennett says that his guys werethe Avengers.
(09:06):
I don't know if we're namingall the other teams, but he said
that they were the Avengers.
They're walking around and soyou have your group leaders.
Some of these group leaders,like Michael Wall, Michael
Bennett yourself was included inthat.
We have some other people thathave done it a long time.
I think what Trent Agin is oneof three or four that have done
(09:31):
it for so many years that weactually have to call it out and
recognize that they are.
They are championing this fordecades and doing a great job.
So she puts this, this, thishodgepodge, this, this, this
crazy puzzle together.
That kind of works seamlesslyin this cog.
So then we go see ourlegislative bodies.
What happens when we finallyhad that meeting, right.
So there's a breakdown and justto give you guys concept of
(09:52):
what's going on, as we gettogether the night before we
have kind of like a meetup and atalking and everybody gets to
see each other and kind of meettheir teams in the morning.
Well, this time we had twospeakers in the morning.
So who were they?
How did they matter in what'sgoing on with Washington DC and
Allegicon and why did they comeup to speak to us?
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Well, we try to do something in the morning.
Just to set the stage, lastyear we had a chief of staff
from a congresswoman's office tokind of talk about how to do
the meetings and why that theywere important, and no matter
who you were talking to, whatyour kind of goal was and how to
present it.
This year we were.
You know, there were a fewthings kind of going on in DC
(10:36):
and so we tried to and I thinkit's always good to hear from
the horse's mouth, hear from thehorse's mouth, so to speak,
when you're there.
And so we were fortunate tohave a legislative aide from
Speaker Johnson's office to comein and he really spent some
time talking about the Housepriorities, particularly the tax
(10:58):
bill that they seemed to bereally focusing on.
They had a big vote on that, orwere supposed to that day.
I think it got pushed, buteventually it did pass.
We also had a lobbyist or thedirector of legal or legislative
(11:18):
affairs from the NationalRetail Federation to come in and
talk about tariffs and he camein.
It was kind of a prescientmoment because he kind of at
that time this was at eighto'clock in the morning on
Wednesday April 9th he saidhere's what's going to happen
and there's going to be a Congoline going to the president
(11:41):
saying, hey, we can't, thiscan't be maintained.
I was with a group and about 12o'clock someone's phone started
beeping and they looked at itand saw the stock market had
basically did this and I thinkit gained about 4,000 points.
That just within a few minutes.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yeah, it was crazy because you've got so many
people on one side saying onething and other people saying
the other, and the truth is thisit's like playing the lotto you
don't know who's going to win,you don't know how the turnout's
going to be.
You just got to kind of stickto what you know.
Hopefully you pick the rightside of everything, whether you
pick certain stocks, you pick tobuy, sell whatever it is and go
from there.
I mean, what else are you goingto do?
But yeah, so we have these twopeople that come, so one of them
(12:20):
was from the Republicans inside, and then so the speaker that
came in.
Secondly, is he a lobbyist forthe Democratic side?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
He actually works for the National Retail Federation.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
So it's not one way or the other.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah, so similar association.
Like us, he's doing what we dofor advocating on retailers on
behalf of retail stores and sothat you know some more kind of
idea or needs, concerns thatthey have, that we do, and so it
was good to have him kind ofcome in and really talk, get in
(12:57):
the weeds on the tariff issuefor us, because that was the
topic of the day.
I think, yeah, everybody waslistening.
You know, I got the blinders onday.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
I think, yeah, it's a lot.
Everybody was listening.
You know, I got the blinders on, like I need to pay attention
to what's going on here.
Those two really kind of setoff in the morning, which was
great because I think you'reright, I got everybody into that
legal mode Like, hey, I'm notat the White House yet, but you
know what?
This is what we're here for,this is the stuff that we want
to hear about, because then aswe go see our legislators, it
gives us some talking pointsbesides.
Hey, we're rent to own andwe're okay.
(13:27):
It's one of those things likewe are okay, but there are
things that we always worryabout and things that we should
talk about and if anythinghappens, please let us know.
It's part of what we do aswatching everything and it's a
great thing to have to come backto every single year and then
have these new people a part ofthis as the time rolls on, and
these new members and when I saynew members, everybody I want
(13:50):
you to understand just becauseyou're a new member doesn't mean
you're new to Rent to Own.
I've seen some new members thatcame in that have been a Rent
to Own for years, years, whichwas amazing to see, because I
did Rent to Own for a while,while long, while before.
I even knew that half of thisexisted, um, and then it took
even a little bit longer to getapart, to be a part of it.
But now that I am, I couldn'timagine not doing it.
(14:12):
I couldn't imagine not being apart of it, because, you know,
everybody wears a differentshirt, but we're all doing the
same thing, and so we've got toadvocate together, as far as
legally, to make sure that ourindustry is thriving and stays
good.
And then we'll go back tocompeting later on, right, and
then we got, uh, I'm gonna tellyou right now, we got the
avengers on one side.
And then I hear mr supermanhimself, michael wall, from
(14:34):
aaron's uh, the director ofoperations.
Right now, what is he?
The director of?
Uh of affairs, corporateaffairs.
And he, so he's there and, um,everybody, I, I, I, I can't, I
can't imagine anybody not.
I think everybody on his team,and even some people not on his
team, were just like super happythat he was there, because not
only did he uh help everybody inthose, those moments where you
(14:55):
know, hey, you might be new,don't worry about it.
I will help you out and showyou.
But he did it with such flairand panache.
It was like like this is hisdeal, this is like I think he
just clocked in on a normal day.
Hey, I'm at the white house,this is, you know, this is like
what I do for lunch, you know.
Like he just did it so well, umand, and kind of helped guide
these people talking about newpeople, whether they've been in
the business, not been in thebusiness.
(15:16):
There's a fellows program.
Now, this is something that is.
Is this new to what ledge conis doing?
Because I don't rememberhearing about it before.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Yeah.
So this is something we startedlast year and I give my case
the credit for this becausewe're, you know, as a vendor
member, this is to come toLegCon.
We require sponsorship.
It's, you know, just to kind ofcontrol the ratio and numbers,
and it's an important and a goodway to really support the
(15:46):
industry through this importanteffort.
And so we're talking to Mikebut Jen truck and I about the
sponsorship opportunities forLedgeCon, and Ashley is a
champion for the industry, theyalways are a top line sponsor
for, for everything.
And Mike would kind of came inand said well, here's something
I'd like to do.
I'd like to bring in peoplethat have never been before and
(16:11):
you know they'll probably be ourcustomers because we sell to
pretty much everyone and thenthat we can expose them to it
and get you know, have themtrained, and then hopefully they
come back or they get involvedon the state level or in some
way.
And so we kind of took thatidea and really ran with it.
Ashley chipped in for a fewlast year I think they did five
(16:31):
or seven, a lot.
So we took that idea and thatconcept of okay, we're going to
fund the hotel and some travelaround DC.
You've just got to get toWashington.
Some travel around DC.
You just got to get toWashington.
Your qualifications arebasically you got to be a first
timer in the rent own industry,working full time for a store.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
That's not many boxes .
Speaker 2 (16:53):
That's not many boxes , and that's the thing.
And so it's really it's, it's a, it's available out there.
You just have to have thesupport of your supervisor to
sign off for you to do it.
So we had a few stateassociations that chipped in and
said, okay, we'll put in for ascholarship or two here or
fellowship, and so we had 10last year and that was a great
(17:16):
start.
I think really the idea of theprogram is to bring new people
in.
So you've got people who havenever been to DC before.
I think you hit on it.
It's an eye-opening experienceIf you're in your store every
day, if you're kind of new tothe industry, or even if you've
been in the industry but youhaven't gotten this exposure to
(17:37):
a RTO world or a meeting of theminds or a legislative
conference.
You don't really understand, Ithink.
Or a legislative conference,you don't really understand, I
think, conceptually how big andimportant this industry is and
what this program does is Ithink it's an enabler for that
(17:59):
it provides a pathway to be ableto one to go to DC see what we
do up there.
But second, too, we have a lotand you mentioned this we've got
a lot of people that have beendoing this for a long time.
We've got a couple of guys thathave been Shannon Strong and
Larry Carrico, I think are tiedat 27.
Can you imagine that they missedfour.
(18:23):
So that's incredible, um, butwe've got a lot of guys, uh,
that have been doing this for 10, 15, 20 plus years, uh, and
that's a lot of experience.
I mean, you mentioned Michael,michael.
I like walking around withMichael because he knows which
which stairways to take and howto get which uh entrance to go
in when the security line's toolong.
(18:43):
Um, uh, so he's a great personto have.
But we've got all these guysthat have been doing this for a
long time that they know how totalk to the legislators, they
know how to talk to the aides,they know how to promote the
industry and kind of it's just Iknow it's been beneficial for
me to be sitting down to go to ameeting with Larry, beneficial
for me to be sitting down to goto a meeting with Larry, to go
(19:04):
to a meeting with Michael, withthese experienced guys, and hear
how they characterize and talkabout RTO, how they talk about
the transaction, and I believeLarry, he talked about this at
the debrief meeting that night.
But he goes in and tells peoplewe provide cold milk, we
(19:26):
provide a good night's sleep,Just that total reframing of
we're not.
We don't just do rentrefrigerators, we give you cold
milk, we don't rent a mattress,we give you a good night's sleep
to get you energized, refreshed, to be able to go back and do
what we do, and that that kindof reframing.
That's a.
That's huge.
(19:46):
I mean just from ourperspective, from hearing we
learn from each other and we'vegot so much knowledge, and just
institutional knowledge, withthis group of guys and women
that have been doing this for along time, and so to bring that
back together, the fellowshipprogram is a way to introduce
people who haven't done thisbefore to this institutional
(20:08):
knowledge that we have with thisexperience.
And so someone can go in andthey can go into a meeting with
a Michael Bennett or a MichaelWall or Shannon Strunk or Larry
Carrico or Trent Agin and hearthem talk about it.
That then will carry over forthe future, and so this is a
(20:28):
sustainability project becauseyou know, people retire, they
sell their businesses.
There's a limit on how many moretimes that a lot of our
experienced guys will be coming,and we've got to grow.
Our next generation will becoming and we've got to grow our
next generation.
So when we're up there, 40years from now, they can tell
(20:53):
the story of.
I went around with LarryCarrico and heard him tell the
story.
I went around with David Davidand heard him tell the story
this way, and so that's whatreally what we're trying to do
with this fellowship program,and I think it's just a, it's a
great way to accomplish a numberof goals.
And so I'll tell you this wehad 10 fellows last year, we had
15 this year, so we grew it.
I'm really hoping we're gonnagrow to 20 next year.
(21:14):
Um, but of the 10 we had lastyear and this kind of shows you
kind of the I think we've gottraction with this we had five
that came back, so half of ourclass 20, 20.
And back in 25, if we canreplicate even a portion of that
going forward.
That's what helps us grow from78 to 88 to 100.
(21:38):
And that's what keeps us at 100people going back each year to
do this, because it's important.
I mean, this is what we're herefor, here for, and this is what
just the core part of keepingthe industry safe and advocating
for it and really telling thegood things about rent to own to
(21:59):
the people that make the lawsand the regulations that control
it.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Well, I'll tell you one thing if it keeps on going
this way, lisa's going to needan assistant pretty soon, and
the fellowship program is agreat way because it sounds
almost like an apprenticeshipprogram.
If I wanted to be somebody inan industry like, let's say,
plumbing, I've got to standbehind somebody who's done it
(22:26):
for a while.
I've got to learn.
It's easy to say, these are thebook ways, how to do it.
You connect the pipe, you bendit over, that's the way it is
and then you go out in the realworld and you're going to have a
master plumber go.
Yeah, hold on, there's a way todo this.
We don't want the house toflood.
So, going out with theseexperienced people who have
decades, decades of timeframe,and not only that, their
(22:53):
day-to-day is not our day-to-day, our day-to-day is not their
day-to-day.
So they take these, not onlythe years that they've been the
ledge come, but they take theirday-to-day, which are
experiences that we might nothave or their experiences that
we don't know about, and we getto all pull that together into a
conversation and I havedefinitely seen some lights go
off.
Um, being there two years, II've seen people that last year
were kind of very timid on theinside.
(23:14):
They said stuff, but kind ofsat back a little bit to
becoming hey, let me tell youabout my industry.
And it's so different to hearthem talk that way, because last
year they were all like, oh myGod, I'm in some legislator's
office, I'm where CNN standswhen they have the camera, and
now we're here, actually on theother side of it, really doing
the work that needs to get doneto represent the industry in a
(23:36):
certain way.
And so they start coming out ofthat shell and that fellowship
program of being able to be withthose guys that have done it
for years and years and put itin a certain way and say things
a certain way.
It's it goes twofold it's notonly being able to you know,
experience them and them beingable to guide you, but also, you
know, every once in a whileyou've got to expect that
(23:57):
there's going to be a legislatorto say something that you know,
ask you a question, going toput it in a different way.
I'm going to put this in adifferent light and tell you you
know, how does this reallyblatantly affect my constituents
in a good way, really blatantlyaffect my constituents in a
good way?
I hear that there's this or Ihear that there's that, and not
only having somebody there witha little experience can say well
, this is why this is what'sgoing on.
(24:19):
You know, with always one,there comes another.
This is where it comes from andthis is how it goes.
And there's, you know, thelifetime reinstatement and all
this stuff.
So, you know, letting them knowit's.
You're going to hear what youhear on certain social medias,
you know TikTok, whatever.
But to sit down in front of thepeople that actually do it
every day, let me explain to youhow it works.
Like you said, being able toframe it in that other way and
say you know, it's not just theproduct we sell us, the
(24:41):
experience at home that you havewith your family that makes a
difference.
And this is, this is what we doon a day-to-day basis.
This is how we, you know, thisis how we became the industry
that we've become.
And as, as I've been able togrow in the industry, I hear and
see all these things from like,let's say, a pro started ledge
calm 31 years ago.
(25:03):
There's a lot of things thatare older than that, right, and
you've got tire industry.
That's older than that.
You've got the furnitureindustry that's older than that.
You've got a lot of things thatare old, but we're not that old
.
And we have the people that yousay 31 years and somebody like
Carrico has been there for 27 ofthem.
Well, he's almost a resource,but started this thing in the
(25:30):
beginning and we still have theability to really kind of look
at, follow, talk to andexperience this with the
pioneers that have really helpedget us to where we are.
And I love the fellowshipprogram.
I love the fellows program.
I think it's a great idea.
I was talking to a couple ofpeople and to hear that it was
(25:52):
their first time.
And you know, here I am.
I'm thinking I'm a new kid onthe block.
You know there's about four newkids on the block.
We're going to start our groupNow.
It was more.
And when I was like you'vereally never been.
No, I've never been.
And the program really reachesinto those small areas of rent
(26:19):
to own and say, hey, you want tocome out here, you want to try
this out, you want to be a partof this.
I love the idea.
Mike, if you're listening, weappreciate it.
We think you did a great jobhere, but we are going to take
it a run.
So the amount of people whenthey come in and you have these
multi, you know multi-decadetype people how does so lisa
(26:39):
tries to divide them up with.
You know, we're trying to getthe the most experience, with a
couple of non-experienced inthere so they can kind of follow
everybody around.
And then, um, at the end of theday, you talked about the
debrief.
So we're there, we're talkingto them, we get through the day,
we can finally let our hairdown.
Oh my God, I talked to thisperson, I saw this person in the
(26:59):
hallway and that because Ithink this year we spotted two
legislators that are always onTV.
We managed to see them.
So then we get to the debriefdinner.
How important is that?
I mean, what's the guidancebehind this debrief dinner and
how does it get everybody backto dinner?
What is the point of?
Speaker 2 (27:16):
that.
So you know it's the bookendfor the conference.
We do the reception the nightbefore, we'll do the breakfast
and that's kind of the send-offand then you know it's really we
always try to find somewhereunique.
You know, this year, last yearwe were at the Daughters of
American Revolution, which was areally cool old.
You know all-on-all.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Yeah, all that was awesome.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
That was awesome Ellipse.
This year we were out at Top ofthe Town, which is an event
function space in Arlington, butit has the complete panoramic
view of the entire city, all themonuments.
You can see everything from thewindows and the rooftop open
bar that they've got up there.
(28:00):
So it's just an incrediblething, one to kind of step back.
You've had a long day.
It's kind of relax and tonetwork and to talk to everyone
about their day.
Kind of relax and to networkand to talk to everyone about
their day.
We started doing something lastyear that was kind of an open
(28:21):
mic and we continued it thisyear.
Where it was, we did likeprompts, where, okay, I advocate
for this industry, because Icome to LegCon, because and to
allow really everyone to kind oftell their story.
You know, that's thefundamental basic thing of all
of this, of all of advocacy Ifyou're doing it right, it's
(28:42):
storytelling and that's why Ilike bringing a fellow in that
can tell their story.
I was in one meeting with oneof our fellows and she told her
story about how that she becamea guy that got a job in rent to
own and then became a regionalmanager.
And you know I'm sitting therelistening to it, I'm looking
around, I'm like.
(29:02):
I'm like I'm not crying, you'recrying and you know it.
Just that's what's powerful andthat's what's memorable for
this.
We give you all this data.
Here's our industry health.
We rent-own.
One out of every 30 familiesuses the rent-own transaction.
You know it's a $12 billionindustry.
(29:22):
We throw all this stuff out.
We've got papers, we haveleave-behinds, we do all that
stuff.
But it's that storytellingduring those meetings.
That is what really resonatesand what's memorable.
And then this is kind of ouropportunity to do that a bit of
that storytelling with eachother and to share that Like
(29:43):
here's why I come to LedgeCon.
I mean it's a you know we're at, it's an ask.
It's an ask.
I mean I recognize that we'reasking you to take time out of
your schedule midweek to come toWashington DC to do this, to go
through that expense, give upyour time away all together.
(30:08):
That's the, that's what the tiein.
And so we started doing the,this kind of open mic, and we
want to try to get everyone atleast a representative from each
team that could kind of come upand share a little bit
something that happened duringthe day, that was memorable or
impactful or something that youknow of real significance and
(30:30):
you know, and it's, it can be,it's intended to be, I mean it's
, you know it's it can beemotional, I mean, you know,
just listening to it, but it, Ithink the takeaway, if you sit
through to me, that's myfavorite.
I mean all of this is great.
That's the, that's thehighlight of the whole thing is
hearing everyone's story oftheir day and then really even
(30:52):
deeper for their story of whythey come and advocate for the
industry.
And here's some really powerfulthings with that.
And I think that just in termsof understanding how big this
industry is and how important itis and how it touches so many
lives, and just from theconsumers to the employees, to
the, to our vendor, suppliers,to owners, all just across the
(31:17):
whole spectrum, that's a, it'sthe capstone for the event.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Yeah, Well, you know talking about different things
and and I want to I want to kindof encapsulate some of the
reasons why we go.
Because obviously, if nobodyunderstands why we go Because
obviously if nobody understandswhy we go, it's fun to say it's
a lot harder to get them tounderstand that this is why.
So a couple of things that cameup last year was you know,
there was talk that a little bitof the CFPB and kind of maybe
(31:46):
wanting to look to, you know,put RTO in a different area, to
look to put RTO in a differentarea, but we're not credit-based
.
So we have to have the advocacythere to say let me re-educate
some of the people who reallydon't know about rent-to-own and
say this is not a credittransaction and the laws of the
CFPB and how they regulate itwill drastically affect this $11
(32:09):
, $12 billion industry andthere's a lot of people that are
affected by that, not only thecustomers that use us every day,
but the employees and theowners that we have.
I mean, your $12 billion isn'tsmall and I know every time we
talk about, oh, we're sendingsomebody this or we're spending
that, we're talking aboutnumbers that people will never
see in their lifetime and thisis something that's shared with
every single store owner, everysingle employee, every single
(32:32):
person that drives a truck toowning the business.
It affects all of us.
So in those types of situationsit's super important.
Right now there's a bill in NewYork and I think we're kind of
jockeying back and forth, but inthat state it's important to
that state.
And now the New York RentalDealers Association, with Jeff
Smith as president I knowyourself is gone and it seems
like we're getting some headwayin that.
(32:53):
Hopefully it works out for thebetterment of everything.
But you know, these thingshappen all the time where
something's going on in theworld.
So I should say, in our fourwalls of the United States of
America, we have to be thereApril has to be there to kind of
do it, and if you think itdoesn't come up, it does there.
April has to be there to kindof do it, and if you think it
(33:13):
doesn't come up, it does so.
Things like that and thingslike New York and things like
the CFPB and how they relate toour transactions, maybe putting
us in a different tax situation,well, it does affect us.
So if you think that we just goup there and say hi, it's not
really that, but it's great tosay, hey, we are doing well,
we're highly regulated, thingsare working out and there's
these small things too.
If we can keep an eye out forthem, please let us know so that
we can advocate on our behalfin those areas and in those
(33:36):
arenas.
Just to kind of say how is NewYork going?
Are we past?
Speaker 2 (33:41):
this or we still got a little bit to go.
New York, that's a greatexample, all right, of why this
is important, of why this isimportant?
Because for years, apro and theindustry advocated for a
federal bill to classify therent-to-owner transaction as a
lease, pure and simple.
It's lease, not credit sale.
(34:02):
Along with that, while thateffort went on for really the
better part of I think, 25, 30years, until it was kind of
abandoned prior to Dodd-Frank inthe early mid-2000s, in
(34:22):
parallel to that was the statelaws being passed, and so we've
got 46 state statutes that werepassed, really beginning.
New York's a great example 1986.
I believe the New York statutewas passed.
It was amended in 2009.
And so we've got lots ofamendments.
If there's an issue with thetransaction, with the
disclosures, with the timings,any of these obligations, it
(34:46):
gets addressed in the statute.
And that is what we go to DC tosay leave us alone.
We're regulated on the statelevel and it works well.
And if we have an issue, alocal issue, we can work with
that legislator on addressingwhat the requirements are on the
statute, rather than coming inwith kind of this heavy-handed
(35:11):
approach of the CFPB being thefederal regulator.
I mean, we're regulated by theFTC on that federal level.
That works.
That's the way it has been fordecades, and so that's kind of
the argument on the CFPB iswe're not credit and therefore
we don't need to becharacterized as credit.
On the CFPB is we're not creditand therefore we don't need to
(35:32):
be characterized as credit.
So what's happened in New Yorkis really what we're trying to
prevent with all of theselegislative days.
What we're trying to prevent inDC is, if we're not up there
telling our story, someone'sgoing to tell it for us, and
that's kind of what's happenedin New York.
You've got consumer groups thathave told our story for us.
They've lumped us in with fiveother relatively new fintech
(35:55):
modern products that have onlyexisted for really the better
part of the past five, seven,ten years, not a rent-to-own
transaction that's been around,for I think Aaron's is
celebrating their 70thanniversary.
You know April's been aroundsince 1980.
This is established.
We've got state laws that canback that up, and so when we
(36:17):
were in New York, there wereseveral lobbying teams working.
I was up there with Jeff andthe New York Rental Doers
Association back at thebeginning of February and that
was our message of hey, wepassed this law in 1986.
We worked with you to amend itin 2009.
If there's a problem with it,let's talk, but this is not.
(36:40):
This is you're completelyeviscerating it and I don't
think anybody will know how thisthing will work if you pass
this new one that disregards 40,almost 40 years of history and
precedent.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Yeah, Of stable regulation.
That's kind of it.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
And then you've also got the other issue too is we're
picking our poison in a lot ofways.
We don't want to be regulatedat the federal level and there
are a lot of reasons we don't.
And I know, Ed I think he wason your podcast recently he went
through a lot of some of thosereasons we don't.
But it know, ed, I think he wason your podcast recently he
went through a lot of some ofthose reasons we don't.
But it's a hydra.
You know, cfpb has beenkneecapped right now with some
(37:20):
of the things going on with thenew administration.
But that just means there are50 other opportunities for that
cause to be taken up.
And I think we saw that duringthe first Trump administration.
We're going to see it in thesecond Trump administration.
New York, in addition to thebill we're fighting up there,
has just introduced a it's kindof a mini CFPB bill that adds
(37:45):
the element of abusive to theUDAP enforcement of the Attorney
General's office.
So you've got kind of anexpansion of what they can do,
which is what the CFPB was doing.
We'll see that in other statesthat expertise and all of those
personnel that work for the CFPBaren't going to quit their jobs
(38:08):
, they're going to findsomewhere to go.
And so that means that we'vegot to fight even harder on
these state levels.
And so that's what's going onin New York.
That bill, we had a billintroduced last March.
It was pending in both houses.
Basically, the clock ran outwhen they adjourned at the
(38:30):
beginning of June.
We're in the same situationthis year.
Identical bills were introducedin both houses.
There They've been reallyfocused on their budget.
So that's really taken themajority of the past two and a
half months plus of theirlegislative time.
And so I think things are aboutto get very busy over the
(38:52):
course of the next six weeks.
And so New York I'm going backup there with Jeff and the team
and Michael while here in acouple of weeks to continue
those conversations.
And we've been having thoseconversations since literally
ongoing consistently since thistime last year conversations.
And we've been having thoseconversations since literally
ongoing consistently since thistime last year.
(39:13):
And so we've got to tell ourstory and why that we are the
odd man out of this.
And whenever you've got thesearguments of okay, we've got a
statute, these other ones don't,we're not credit.
These other ones are.
(39:33):
That resonates a lot better andit's a lot easier too whenever
you've established thoserelationships and you become
that resource, which is whatreally?
A lot of what.
The strategy in DC and theother legislative days that
we're doing it's preemptive.
Dc and the other legislativedays that we're doing it's
preemptive, so we're not havingto react and really mobilize
(39:58):
which is what's happening in NewYork right now making new?
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Now, I mean in a layman's term sort of way, do we
get lumped in because we takeregular payments, just like, you
know, a credit card, but notnecessarily the same way, and
they kind of just scooped it allin one salad and they're going
to regulate this and they don'treally understand what's going
on.
Or were we literally cherrypicked out because to them it
(40:20):
seems like a credit transaction,even though it's been defined
as not?
Speaker 2 (40:25):
I don't think it's either of those those.
I think in New York we werelumped in by consumer groups
that were you've got productsthat aren't regulated.
They're really where we were inthe 80s and we chose to be
regulated.
(40:45):
Okay, here's how we want to beregulated like this We'll agree
to these disclosures.
We'll agree to a rentalagreement that says this We'll
agree to doing these thingsduring the terms of the lease
and post-lease.
We chose that and we pushed it,and so this is how we wanted to
be regulated.
(41:06):
In exchange for not beingcharacterized as a credit
transaction and being subject toall these other regulations.
In exchange for not beingcharacterized as a credit
transaction and being subject toall these other regulations.
What's happening there isyou've got new products that
aren't.
They're round pegs trying to befit, or square pegs fitting
around holes, however you wantto characterize it, but they
don't have that.
You've got to build things likeearned wage access, which is
(41:27):
like payday, but it's notexactly payday loans.
You've got a buy now, pay later, which didn't exist five years
ago, 10 years ago.
That's gotten very big.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
So you know but they don't have a regulatory scheme
They've got.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
They're trying to be fit in.
Okay, well, this looks like aloan, so we're going to throw
you under the lending creditprovisions or regulations here,
and so they're kind of where.
We were just kind of trying tofigure out where they belong.
This is a sledgehammer of likeOK, we're going to, we're going
to do all of this without reallyaddressing some of these other
(42:06):
things on it as well.
Oh yeah, I guess we you knowthis concern.
We still don't like those guyseither, so we're going to throw
them into it.
I mean literally the, the, thebill is being the code name or
the, the moniker I guess it'sbeen given for the one in New
York is in in one Elsa in loanshark act.
Okay, great, end it.
(42:29):
I mean that's that sounds.
I think we would all agree thatno one should be out alone
(42:51):
sharking and doing that, but'renot up there saying that like,
yeah, sure, that sounds, rentdone, sounds like any of these
other things.
I mean that's kind of theperception.
That is the constant battlethat we are fighting and it may
seem like, okay, nothing's goingon in DC, but we are setting.
If we're not harvesting, we'replanting seeds and it is a cycle
(43:14):
and we've got to becontinuously on this, at all
times, persistently,consistently.
It is not something that youcan just do reactionary, and
hope to have that be aneffective strategy and hope to
be successful with it.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
Well, Charles, I got a question Are we going to see
you on some kind of C-SPAN orsomething like?
Speaker 2 (43:34):
that?
Are you going to be in front ofa?
Speaker 1 (43:35):
congressional hearing .
You know the CEO of APRO, wehave you here and you're going
to be sitting in front of acouple of senators and they're
going to be like.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
let me tell you, I would do it.
That's kind of like being incourt.
I mean, I was a litigator forthe beginning of my career and
you never want to be in court inthat situation.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
Yeah right, right, avoid at all costs.
So there's, you know, theimportance is there, the
tradition is there, theexperience and the fellows is
there and we're bringing allthis together and it's great to
hear that out of COVID we'rehitting some great numbers.
We're expanding year after year.
If you guys want to be a partof the fellow program, please
(44:19):
let us know.
Reach out to April.
It's rtohqorg and you canfigure out how to do the fellows
program from there.
At the time next year we willhave a link to a from our
website at the rto showpodcastcom, so that you can find
it anywhere you can.
But one last question I wantedto ask is in your opinion, what
was something different thathappened this year that stood
(44:42):
out, something that you couldsay you know what?
Uh, every year there's alwaysthat one thing that happens, or
two things that happens.
What's something that happenedwith charles or with the group
or whatever that you say thiswas unique to this year?
Speaker 2 (44:53):
Yeah, you know, it's always different, no matter what
time you go up there.
It's just different.
You know, I would say and Imean just even just going back
to the fellow thing, I mean thatbeing up there, we do that,
like I said, we do a recognition.
At the end of them, werecognize the people that have
(45:14):
been there.
For, you know, here's our fiveplus year category, here's our
10 plus years, our 15, we, andwe have a lot of people, uh, we,
we actually started, uh theyused to do this a long time ago
but we brought it back last yearwhere if you've been there for
five plus years, you get acertain pin, like a lapel pin.
They're nice, big, shiny, thatyou know we started doing that
(45:44):
to kind of recognize people.
But there's an element of kindof when you go in and you do the
same meetings with the same themessaging is you get kind of in
a routine and rhythm with thatmessaging and so really kind of
being in the in the room andsome of the meetings with the
fellows and and particularlywith the ones you know it's
(46:06):
intimidating to go up there.
If you've never done this, Imean we try to do everything, we
try we do a training program.
We do a pre a web, apre-conference webinar.
We do the training at breakfast.
We really try to put peoplewith teams of experienced people
, but it's still an intimidatingthing to go through up to one
of those buildings.
You're standing beside theCapitol, you go in through
(46:27):
security and you're in thehallways and you're passing
these people.
You see on CNN or Fox or C-SPANor whatever you know.
You're seeing these people,you're seeing the podiums,
you're seeing all this stuff.
I mean it's an intimidatingatmosphere, particularly if you
haven't done it much.
(46:47):
And so, really, kind of being inthe room with some of these
fellows that were notintimidated for whatever reason,
to speak and to tell, and likeyou know kind of where, that
thing of what I said withstorytelling, and be able to
tell that story, that's whatresonates when you're meeting
with you know congressmen,congresswomen that are
(47:09):
representing your district, andto be able to kind of go and say
, well, I'm from this small townor I'm from here and I used to
went to this high school and I,you know, know these people and,
uh, this is how I got into rentto own, uh, and we service the
people in this area of this town, that that, that that kind of
(47:29):
thing is powerful and thatresonates.
And so, yeah, there was and Ijoked about that I literally was
tearing up listening to, uh, to, to one of these uh and uh,
just, uh, just incredible uhstory to hear that and that's
not, you know, this is a uniqueatmosphere and opportunity to
share that we don't.
You know, this isn't kind of auh, something we would do at RTO
(48:02):
world or at a state associationmeeting.
It's a unique situation,scenario, specific thing to be
able to kind of tell that.
And so, yeah, that was probablythe highlight.
I think I'll remember some ofthese.
Just that happened this yearfor a long time and for me it's
a learning experience for me.
I've been doing this for awhile, not only with APRO but
with other associations, doinglegislative days and doing these
(48:22):
type of meetings and you know,I learn something new every time
and ways to polish the approachand new ideas to share.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
I love that policy approach.
That's a great way to put it,because it does deep polishing.
I'll tell you, one of the mostunique things that I noticed
this time around was number one,was the stories.
The stories did hit home, andto hear that you have people
that become customers, thatbecome employees, that become
advocates for the industry,that's a win.
(48:50):
That's a win all the way around.
But one of the other things thatstuck out to me that was really
unique this year was there wasprobably three to four meetings
that we had where we came in andwe started talking.
We said, listen, there reallyisn't any pressing issue right
now, but we wanted to.
And they just do what?
Like I just got through withlike 45 minutes of getting
(49:23):
somebody just chewing on my earabout what's going on here.
Let's fix this.
And oh my God, what are youdoing?
Because we mentioned I mean youmentioned it before it's a new
administration.
We're going to do it this wayas opposed to that way.
We're going to try new things.
And so they've had those peoplelike hey, wait a minute, we're
upsetting the apple cart.
I'm going to tell you why thisis good or bad for me, or
whatever, whatever.
And then we come in and theyget 15 minutes of wait.
A minute Wait, you're notyelling at me, you're not
(49:47):
telling me that we're you knowwhatever.
We're having a civilconversation about an industry
that I might not know that muchabout, and it was great to just
how it went along.
I was so shocked of howappreciative they were for us to
be preemptive, versus, on theother side of it, to say, hey,
oh, my God, we have this bigproblem, we need your help, we
(50:07):
need you to do this, we need youto do that.
And it was like, oh, wait aminute, I can sit here and
actually listen to you what youhave to say without putting on a
defense and I can't answer that.
I can't say this.
And we had some really goodconversations.
I think we had some eye-openingconversations and for me, that
was a really unique part ofLedgeCon doing this, making sure
(50:28):
that I can say to the peoplethat are around me I've done
what I can for this industry andI'm going to keep on doing it
as much as I humanly can.
So, on my second year, guys, Ihave not experienced by any
means, but hopefully one day,besides all the steps that I
have, I will be coaching andmentoring maybe somebody else in
the far future, but we'll seehow that goes.
Charles, I'm so glad that yougot to be here.
(50:49):
I wish Edwin would have beenhere this year.
He did, he did, he was on thepodcast.
He's always so full ofknowledge.
I love talking to Ed.
He's so good at it.
But you know, ledgecon 2025 wasan absolute success 88 people
Fellows is growing.
We want to break the threedigit mark and that means we
(51:10):
need you to hit us up so Aprilof next year.
Speaker 2 (51:15):
We've got beds for hotels right now, so I think we
may have that lined up.
That's it.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
That's it.
We're putting a marker on thistimestamp.
So if you guys want to be apart of it, keep on watching,
following us and followingwhat's going on.
Again, go to RTOHQ next year.
You can even start it.
I think we start off at the endof January or February when we
start getting the registrationstogether.
That's a great time for you tofigure out what's going on and
if you can make it and I promiseyou, if you tell your boss, hey
(51:43):
, listen, I'm advocating so thatwe can keep this open I
guarantee you they're going togive you a couple of days off.
Not only that Washington DC isso full of history, I will tell
you this.
I did stay a little bit longer.
I went for LegCon, I stayed forDC, I got to see the
Constitution, I got to see theBill of Rights.
I mean, there's so much goingon.
There's all the Smithsonian'swhere you can see all of our
(52:05):
culture, all of our history.
There's so much.
There's Arlington NationalCemetery and if you ever want to
do something crazy, if you everget a group of people together
or whatever, the top of the townwas amazing.
Those views, charles will tellyou they were great, they were
good in the daytime.
They were even better at night,when everything was lit up and
you've got the backgrounds.
You've got the WashingtonMonument Absolutely gorgeous.
(52:27):
Well, if you guys have anyquestions, always reach out to
me.
It's Pete at theRTOshowpodcastcom.
Always feel free to hit us inDMs on Facebook, instagram,
linkedin and on YouTube.
Now make sure you subscribe,and this is what we do, guys.
This is how we make theindustry work.
Charles Smitherman, from April,we are so happy that you got to
be here and I'm going to tellyou guys, as always, get your
(52:49):
collections low, thanks.
Sales high, thank you.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.