April 17, 2024 • 25 mins
Welcome to "The Rub," a captivating podcast delving into the world of massage therapy. Join your host, Corey Rivera, as they explore the intricacies of continuing education in massage therapy with guests Ruth Werner, Whitney Lowe, and Rebecca Sturgeon.
In this enlightening episode, Corey engages in insightful conversations with industry experts about the transformative shift in massage therapy education, particularly focusing on the transition from traditional in-person classes to the realm of online learning.
The discussion delves into contrasting viewpoints on education's purpose within the massage therapy community. Whitney laments the prevailing focus on technique-oriented courses, advocating for broader clinical reasoning skills.
Ruth Werner shares her passion for teaching ethics in massage therapy, emphasizing the power of role-playing and peer discussions in cultivating a supportive learning environment.
Rebecca Sturgeon champions the emotional and social dimensions of in-person learning, highlighting its unique ability to foster camaraderie and resilience among practitioners.
As the episode draws to a close, Corey invites reflections from the guests on their favorite topics to teach and learn.
Join Corey Rivera and their esteemed guests on "The Rub," where each episode invites you to uncover the secrets, challenges, and triumphs of the massage therapy profession.
Links:
Healwell's Oncology Classes
What is the Transformative Learning Theory?
An Update on Transformational Learning
Ruth Werner
Whitney Lowe
Rebecca Sturgeon's Oncology Book
Send us an email: podcast@healwell.org
Leave us a voice message: 703-468-1799
Check out our interview-style podcast: Interdisciplinary
You can support Healwell and the cool things we make by donating here!
Ways join in:
- Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts
- Check Healwell’s live and online classes
- Continue the conversation with a free 3-day trial of the Healwell Community
- Find a copy of Rebecca Sturgeon's book: "Oncology Massage: An Integrative Approach to Cancer Care"
Thank you to ABMP and AMTA for sponsoring us!
Healwell is a 501(c)(3) non-profit based out of the Washington DC area. Check us out at www.healwell.org
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Corey Rivera (00:08):
Welcome to the Rub , a podcast about massage
therapy.
I'm your host, Corey Rivera,licensed massage therapist and
information magpie.
Today we're going to talk aboutcontinuing education and
massage therapy with Ruth Werner, whitney Lowe and HealWell's
own Rebecca Sturgeon.
Werner, whitney Lowe andHealWell's own Rebecca Sturgeon.
(00:32):
Ruth Werner is the author of AMassage Therapist's Guide to
Pathology, currently in itsseventh edition.
Ruth has a love of octopusesand I can see why she's
fascinated by them.
Ruth has the same kind ofcuriosity, turning ideas over
and consciously examining themfrom all sides.
She gets to exercise her needfor new information in her ABMP
podcast.
I have a Client who, where sheanswers questions from massage
therapists about health concernsthey run into with their
(00:53):
clients.
Ruth has been teaching massagetherapy education for almost 40
years.
It used to be in person, butnow it's almost completely
online.
I asked Ruth how onlineeducation felt different from in
person.
Ruth Werner (01:06):
What's great about it is I feel like I can do a
good job of offering materialthat is accessible.
I can make the case that it'simportant and worth spending
some time on, and people can doit in a setting and at a time
that's convenient for them.
(01:26):
I like that most of theorganizations that I provide
webinars for make recordings ofthose webinars available, for I
typically ask them to make itavailable for about a month and
then pull it down, but thatmeans people can go back and
catch up and re-listen if theywant to.
(01:46):
I have no idea, you know, ifthey even do that, but there are
ways I have learned to takeadvantage of the medium, for
instance, without being able todo live Q&A.
I certainly do Q&A, you know itcomes in through the chat and I
answer questions at anappropriate moment, but it
(02:08):
doesn't leave space forconversations.
But the payoff for that is Ican cover probably 20% more
content in a CE class that'soffered as a webinar as compared
to one that is offered live andit's you know, it's sixes.
(02:32):
There are advantages both waysand that's why I have mixed
feelings, because when I get todo a live in-person,
face-to-face kind of meeting,the possibility for exploration
of concepts that are reallyimportant to people who are
there in the room, where I cango down appropriate tangents
(02:58):
that make the material comealive for the people who are
there, because typically peoplecome and see a class on
fibromyalgia or a class onmental and mood disorders or
whatever, because they havespecific needs in mind, and
doing it live allows me topursue that in ways that are to
me feel really, reallysatisfying.
(03:18):
I learn much more doing a liveclass than I do, you know, doing
a webinar, and I think that myattendees, that the people who
decide to come to my classes,get a different kind of
experience.
Live versus distance learning,it's just, it's two really
(03:39):
different media and there areadvantages to both.
I like them both, but they arenot equivalent.
Corey Rivera (03:53):
In 2019, a proposal allowing online
instruction and entry-leveleducation subjects that don't
require hands-on skills, likebusiness or pathology, was put
forth to the American MassageTherapy Association Assembly of
Delegates.
The assembly's job was to givethe idea a stamp of approval or
turn it down.
I was there as a delegate andthe assembly overwhelmingly
turned it down, mostly due tolack of understanding of how
(04:16):
online courses work.
Whitney Lowe was the author ofthat proposal.
Whitney runs the Academy ofClinical Massage, a continuing
education company that expertlyblends online and in-person
learning.
This is unsurprising becauseWhittney is one of the most
deliberately thoughtful peopleI've ever met.
So in September of 2019, theAssembly poo-pooed the idea of
(04:36):
online learning, and then 2020came in like a lion.
I asked both Whittney and Ruthabout the changes they've seen
since.
Whitney Lowe (04:45):
All kinds of things I think have been
changing, you know.
First of all, I mean we can'ttalk about this really without
talking about COVID and itsimpact on that, because clearly,
you know, lots of people hadmade a career and a profession
out of teaching, continuingeducation courses and being on
the road and having live classesand people interacting with
them, and then all of a suddenthat just came to a screeching
halt.
So, you know, everybody rushedto get everything online with
(05:10):
the emergency remote teachingprocess and clearly that was
kind of a disaster in a lot ofways, but it did also pour
gasoline on the fire of people,you know, recognizing what might
be possible or might be able tobe done with online education
as well.
Ruth Werner (05:26):
The big thing for me is that, because my
continuing education classes arealmost entirely lecture-based,
people have discovered that I doa good webinar, do a good
(05:49):
webinar and the consequences Ihave been teaching, you know,
for AMTA chapters and otherorganizations probably about the
same as I did pre, you know, inthe before times, but I'm doing
most of it here from my deskand and instead of, you know,
going away for a weekend andteaching 16 hours over over two
or three days.
Now I, you know, teach a threehour class once a month or
(06:13):
something like that, and I havemixed feelings about that.
But I'm really glad that mymaterial has been pretty well
received in the format ofdistance learning.
Certainly, it would be muchharder to you know, teach a
technique class or an assessmentclass or something like that
(06:34):
without you know, without beingthere in person.
Corey Rivera (06:41):
Now it's 2024 and live classes are back, but
educators are having troublefilling these live classes.
I think we've all settled intoa bit of a rut.
I mean, who doesn't lovelearning in their pajamas?
Heck, I work in my pajamas.
I have lime green Jurassic Parkpants on right now, but in a
time when life seems to becoming at us from all sides,
(07:01):
there often doesn't feel likethere's enough time to make
dinner, let alone dedicate a dayor two to a live class.
However, there are things youcan't learn online and, more
importantly, experiences youcan't have.
Here's Whitney again.
Whitney Lowe (07:15):
I think you know what works well, what works best
.
Live is teaching.
You know movement skills,psychomotor skills, so that's
where you know the massagetechnique.
Things definitely do excel.
The classroom also is great forthe cohesive interactivity that
happens between students,between students and the teacher
, and the communication thathappens, the immediate questions
(07:38):
that come up, the answers, thediscussions that pop out of
questions that come up to letyou think about things, and just
the social aspect of learning,of doing this in communication
with other people.
That's really very effectiveand some of the things that are
most powerful in the classroom,I think.
Corey Rivera (07:57):
I also talked to HealWell's Education Director,
Rebecca Sturgeon, about thebenefits of in-person learning.
Rebecca is the squishy heart ofHealWell.
Rebecca Sturgeon (08:09):
I could try to explain that statement, but I
think you'll hear what I mean.
I think any chance that youhave to take yourself out of
your routine for any amount oftime and sort of immerse
yourself in learning in the waythat you can only do in person
with other people it allows.
I think it does something toyour brain and I wish I had
(08:32):
research behind this, but maybeCorey will find it for me
someday but I think it doessomething to your brain and your
brain's preparedness for takingin and processing new
information.
Corey Rivera (08:46):
I found the research, by the way, and it
does indeed change you.
But I'll let Rebecca finish herthought.
Rebecca Sturgeon (08:52):
I think it also makes you a more creative
practitioner, because takingyourself out of your out of your
environment for a while andlearning something new when you
go back if you've paid attention, when you go back to your
environment, you see itdifferently and you may be able
to see things or do things thatdidn't seem possible before.
(09:13):
I also think the in-personlearning, the social aspect of
it, is really important, and Isay this as an introvert right.
I think being in a room withother humans who are learning
the same thing and maybestruggling with the same thing
that you're struggling with, isreally valuable, really involved
(09:48):
.
I think you learn them betterwhen you have people who are
having the same struggle,because it's it's you have
someone to regulate your nervoussystem against, and it's not,
rather not just the face on thescreen, even if the face on the
screen is in real time, like youand I in a room together,
versus you and I talking realtime over Zoom.
Corey Rivera (10:11):
And now a research tidbit.
The term Rebecca was lookingfor is transformative learning.
Transformative learning is aterm that was originally coined
by a sociologist named JackMesereau in 1978.
It's when an adult student hasan experience that literally
changes their worldview.
The first step intransformative learning is a
disorienting dilemma.
The student realizes theirperspective doesn't quite fit
(10:33):
the reality.
This can happen suddenly, likeduring a life crisis, or it can
happen gradually.
The dilemma causes self-doubt,which allows the student to take
in new information and generatenew ideas.
An important part oftransformative learning is
self-reflection, and eventuallythe student builds confidence in
their new way of thinking andbeing.
Naturally, there's a ton moreto the concept of transformative
(10:55):
learning, but that's not reallythe topic of this episode.
If you want to read more aboutit on your own, there's a few
links in the show notes.
Rebecca Sturgeon (11:09):
In the meantime, here's a great story
about the transformativelearning that happens in the
live clinic part of HealWell'sin-person oncology classes.
The live clinic in the oncologyclass oh, I love the live
clinic.
So I mean what it is on paperis you get the chance to offer a
full massage 60 minutes, six,zero minutes, um to a human who
has an experience with a cancerdiagnosis and or a cancer
(11:32):
treatment.
So you do the intake, you dothe massage, you do the whole
thing like a whole session.
Um, what it actually is, um,what it actually is is it's,
it's magic, and I I I'm notsaying that lightly, because
what happens with the, with theclinic session, is that
(11:54):
everything that people havelearned up to this point, you
know, for the past two days orfor the past however many hours
of online and the past two days,um, it all comes together with
stakes.
Right, because this is anactual human.
They're not actors in ourclinics and what happens is that
people this is a generalization, but people immediately forget
(12:19):
that they know how to do thingsand panic.
And then another advantage ofthe live class they're always
like with their co-students,their colleagues, and then you
know, the person that they'rewith calms them down or not, or
they bring an instructor overand the instructor calms them
down and they get to work andthey realize that that right,
(12:44):
still know how to be a massagetherapist, still know how to
plan a session, still know howto do an intake conversation, um
, and there's always a point inthe live clinic where, uh, it
starts in the energy is likereally spiky and really, uh,
nervous, and you know it's.
It's a lot to kind of containthat, but that's part of our job
(13:06):
, you know, as instructors, tokind of contain that and hold
that.
And there's always a point atwhich, like I imagine it as a
cardiograph or cardiogram, thatis real spiky and real spiky and
real spiky.
And then suddenly it's justcalm, just calm and it's and you
(13:27):
can see people sort of realizeI'm doing this and I can do this
and I enjoy doing this, um, soit's, it's a beautiful moment
where everything comes togetherreally, Cause we can practice in
class and we can talk and wecan do scenarios and we can do
(13:48):
case studies and all of that isvaluable.
But where it actually happens isin the live clinic, where you
are in the way that massagetherapists are, you're connected
to a client with this newinformation.
Therapist, are you're connectedto a client with this new
information and you realize thatthe new information doesn't
(14:09):
change your ability to connectwith the client.
So it's actually it's prettyawesome.
Corey Rivera (14:21):
Before we move on, I want Rebecca to tell you what
her first in-person class afterthe COVID crisis was like.
Rebecca Sturgeon (14:27):
The first in-person class I taught after
COVID was an oncology massageworkshop in just outside of
Chicago and it was a real smallgroup, you know, small enough
that we almost didn't run theclass, but we're like no, you
know what, let's do it.
It's the first one and it washard.
I'm not going to say it waseasy.
It was hard because, inaddition to this being the first
(14:48):
live class that I'd taught inlike three years, this was also
a group of people that was thatbrought a lot into the room.
They brought a lot in terms ofskill and compassion and just
care for each other, but also interms of what they were dealing
with in their lives.
Um so it was a lot, but theytook such beautiful care of each
(15:11):
other.
Like for three days I saw themtake such every live class I've
ever taught Like before thenpeople took care of each other,
but not like this.
It was amazing.
Um, so the last day of class, weall walk out of the place
together and the person who wassort of taking care of the venue
locked the door.
(15:32):
We're all standing on thecorner kind of saying goodbye
and getting ready to walk backto our various places where we
were staying, nobody moved.
It's November in Chicago, it'scold, nobody would move, nobody
would cross the street.
Like there's this tight littlegroup of people that didn't want
to leave each other becausethey just had these three days
(15:52):
that they'd been missing for,didn't realize that they'd been
missing for three years andthey're just.
It was beautiful, it was reallybeautiful.
Corey Rivera (16:05):
The last thing I want to touch on are a few
comments Whitney had about howMassage thinks about continuing
education in general.
He doesn't use the termbiopsychosocial, but I'm happy
to say that word as many timesas necessary for it to catch on,
so I will Biopsychosocial,Remember bio is only one third
(16:28):
of the word.
Whitney Lowe (16:28):
But, holy cow, is the bio part so much easier to
market on social media?
Yeah, because I mean it getsmarketed a lot as take my class,
learn my magical technique andyou will either increase your
income or heal everybody intotreatments, kind of thing.
You know, there's a lot of thatpervasive still and that really
gets under my skin because it'sthat's not really what it's
(16:49):
about at all, nor is that reallyrealistic.
But a lot of that still existsand so those attitudes you know
are still out there a great deal.
And when you talk about ROI andrecognizing that in terms of
value of education.
You know, one of the otherthings that really bothers me a
lot about continuing educationin our field is it has really
(17:09):
been for a long time andcontinues to be a perception
that continuing education meanslearning a new massage technique
, something new and different todo with your hands.
That's what a CE course is allabout, and people don't
understand or recognize thevalue of.
There's a whole bunch of otherstuff out there that you really
(17:30):
could benefit tremendously fromand learn a great deal about to
make yourself a much moresuccessful and well-rounded
clinician.
That doesn't necessarily haveto do with learning to do
something new with your hands.
You know learning a newpsychomotor skill with your
hands.
You know learning a newpsychomotor skill.
Corey Rivera (17:44):
To wrap up, I asked Ruth, whitney and Rebecca
about what they love to teachand what they love to learn.
I really enjoy getting peopleto talk about their favorite
things.
Both Ruth and Rebecca answeredboth questions with one answer.
Ruth Werner (17:59):
I have an ethics class that I love to teach and I
particularly love to teach itlive.
I have adapted it for webinars,but it's a it comes in a poor
second.
So it's called.
It's called the ethics ofclient communication talking to
people, talking to clients abouttheir health and it is based on
(18:20):
active communication skillsSorry, and it's based on active
listening skills combined withreal life scenarios that people
have shared with me over theyears.
And what I love about this classis that we may get you know, we
may end up with a scenario thatis from 20 years ago in Nova
(18:43):
Scotia or one that was from sixmonths ago in San Francisco
right, but it's so.
It's.
It's massage therapists sharingtheir experiences over the
globe and over the decades witheach other.
And one of the things I loveabout that class is I talk for
about an hour, maybe an hour anda half, and the rest of it is
(19:06):
small group work where peopleget together and they gather
around tables and they workthrough these scenarios, and I
kind of hate to say the RP wordbecause it turns people off, but
it does involve role-playing.
Corey Rivera (19:21):
It's not a win-sit exactly.
So I think I don't thinkrole-playing is bad or useless.
I think that it's really easyfor people who are uninterested
to like say we role-played andcheck the box and just move on
with life.
I think it's it's easy to dobadly and I think when it's done
(19:42):
well, it's like it's prettygreat.
But I think when it's done well, it's like it's pretty great.
But I think it takes a lot ofpractice by the person who's
facilitating to do it well.
Ruth Werner (19:54):
I, I agree, but I and, and so during the role play
part of that course.
I am literally flying aroundthe room to listen to all of
these conversations happeningaround the tables and and some
of the things I like about thisis a, people can discharge a lot
of fear and anxiety aboutpathologies.
(20:14):
And B, people can use thatopportunity to do something in
massage therapy we almost neverget to do, which is to share
their experiences.
We, you know, we live I keeptalking about how we work in our
little sacred pink bubbles,which is lovely and beautiful
(20:37):
and as it should be right.
Nothing should really begetting through that membrane,
but sometimes we need todischarge.
It may be something wonderful.
I had a client who had thisproblem and I tried something
new and it was amazing and Iwant everybody to know.
Or sometimes it's really hard.
I have a client who had thisproblem and I could not figure
out how to help them and Ifinally gave up, and that's you
(20:59):
know.
It's really important for us tobe able to share those kinds of
conversations respectfully andwithin appropriate boundaries
with each other, and that ethicsclass provides a space to do
that, and I love listening tothose stories.
It's just wonderful and itfills me with joy about this
(21:23):
profession because, bydefinition, the people who come
to a class like that are theyjust want to get better, they
just want to really get betterat what they do, and I will work
with those people all day long.
Corey Rivera (21:38):
Here's Rebecca's favorite thing to learn.
Rebecca Sturgeon (21:42):
I actually really love talking to people
about how to um, regulate theirnervous system as practitioners,
and, and how to uh, and, andhow to, how to be a better human
(22:02):
.
You know, to be the kind ofhuman who can stand in the face
of people who are in extremistsand hold that.
I actually I love teaching that, because it's impossible to
teach, it's absolutelyimpossible to teach you, just
you.
Corey Rivera (22:22):
It's metaphors, it's all metaphors and my last
question is what do you like tolearn?
Rebecca Sturgeon (22:27):
It's like a creative challenge.
Same thing, literally the samething.
Whitney Lowe (22:41):
And here's Whitney one more time concepts for
people, because it's one ofthose things that I think people
just don't get taught a lot,and I love seeing those light
bulbs go off of peoplerecognizing how important it is
(23:04):
to go through some of theseprocesses to figure out how they
can best help somebody, whenthey have a better idea of
what's really happening withthem and you know again, more so
than just learning a technique,they're often learning how to
be a really effective clinicianand work with people in a much
more engaging way and reallymake very significant
(23:25):
differences in people's lives.
Corey Rivera (23:26):
What's your favorite thing to learn?
Whitney Lowe (23:27):
I love seeing that process happen.
Corey Rivera (23:31):
Take your time.
Whitney Lowe (23:34):
Oh, wow, favorite thing to learn.
Corey Rivera (23:36):
I wouldn't do that to you.
Whitney Lowe (23:38):
Does this have to be limited to our field?
Because, like, wow, favoritething to learn, I don't know.
It probably depends on the day.
You know, like, what my mood is.
You know there's times when Ilove learning about our field.
I love reading medical journalsand diving into an orthopedics
(23:58):
problem.
There's days when I lovelearning about music, you know.
There's days when I lovelearning about systems theory
and nature, you know, and thingslike that.
You know geology, you knowthere's all kinds of things that
can spark my interest and makeme interested in learning.
So it depends on my mood.
(24:19):
That's probably where I'll livewith that.
Corey Rivera (24:25):
And that concludes our brief study of in-person
education.
If you enjoyed this podcast,please leave us a five-star
review on Apple Podcasts,because apparently anything less
is considered a negative.
You can also join us in thecommunity at
communityhealwellorg for a hotwash of the ABMP school forum
that happened on April 5th and6th.
I give a great rundown of theconference and also rail about
(24:45):
Silicon Valley attitudes beingshoehorned into massage therapy
If you want to experience thelive clinic
Welcome to the Rub , a podcast about massage
therapy.
I'm your host, Corey Rivera,licensed massage therapist and
information magpie.
Today we're going to talk aboutcontinuing education and
massage therapy with Ruth Werner, whitney Lowe and HealWell's
own Rebecca Sturgeon.
Werner, whitney Lowe andHealWell's own Rebecca Sturgeon.
(00:32):
Ruth Werner is the author of AMassage Therapist's Guide to
Pathology, currently in itsseventh edition.
Ruth has a love of octopusesand I can see why she's
fascinated by them.
Ruth has the same kind ofcuriosity, turning ideas over
and consciously examining themfrom all sides.
She gets to exercise her needfor new information in her ABMP
podcast.
I have a Client who, where sheanswers questions from massage
therapists about health concernsthey run into with their
(00:53):
clients.
Ruth has been teaching massagetherapy education for almost 40
years.
It used to be in person, butnow it's almost completely
online.
I asked Ruth how onlineeducation felt different from in
person.
Ruth Werner (01:06):
What's great about it is I feel like I can do a
good job of offering materialthat is accessible.
I can make the case that it'simportant and worth spending
some time on, and people can doit in a setting and at a time
that's convenient for them.
(01:26):
I like that most of theorganizations that I provide
webinars for make recordings ofthose webinars available, for I
typically ask them to make itavailable for about a month and
then pull it down, but thatmeans people can go back and
catch up and re-listen if theywant to.
(01:46):
I have no idea, you know, ifthey even do that, but there are
ways I have learned to takeadvantage of the medium, for
instance, without being able todo live Q&A.
I certainly do Q&A, you know itcomes in through the chat and I
answer questions at anappropriate moment, but it
(02:08):
doesn't leave space forconversations.
But the payoff for that is Ican cover probably 20% more
content in a CE class that'soffered as a webinar as compared
to one that is offered live andit's you know, it's sixes.
(02:32):
There are advantages both waysand that's why I have mixed
feelings, because when I get todo a live in-person,
face-to-face kind of meeting,the possibility for exploration
of concepts that are reallyimportant to people who are
there in the room, where I cango down appropriate tangents
(02:58):
that make the material comealive for the people who are
there, because typically peoplecome and see a class on
fibromyalgia or a class onmental and mood disorders or
whatever, because they havespecific needs in mind, and
doing it live allows me topursue that in ways that are to
me feel really, reallysatisfying.
(03:18):
I learn much more doing a liveclass than I do, you know, doing
a webinar, and I think that myattendees, that the people who
decide to come to my classes,get a different kind of
experience.
Live versus distance learning,it's just, it's two really
(03:39):
different media and there areadvantages to both.
I like them both, but they arenot equivalent.
Corey Rivera (03:53):
In 2019, a proposal allowing online
instruction and entry-leveleducation subjects that don't
require hands-on skills, likebusiness or pathology, was put
forth to the American MassageTherapy Association Assembly of
Delegates.
The assembly's job was to givethe idea a stamp of approval or
turn it down.
I was there as a delegate andthe assembly overwhelmingly
turned it down, mostly due tolack of understanding of how
(04:16):
online courses work.
Whitney Lowe was the author ofthat proposal.
Whitney runs the Academy ofClinical Massage, a continuing
education company that expertlyblends online and in-person
learning.
This is unsurprising becauseWhittney is one of the most
deliberately thoughtful peopleI've ever met.
So in September of 2019, theAssembly poo-pooed the idea of
(04:36):
online learning, and then 2020came in like a lion.
I asked both Whittney and Ruthabout the changes they've seen
since.
Whitney Lowe (04:45):
All kinds of things I think have been
changing, you know.
First of all, I mean we can'ttalk about this really without
talking about COVID and itsimpact on that, because clearly,
you know, lots of people hadmade a career and a profession
out of teaching, continuingeducation courses and being on
the road and having live classesand people interacting with
them, and then all of a suddenthat just came to a screeching
halt.
So, you know, everybody rushedto get everything online with
(05:10):
the emergency remote teachingprocess and clearly that was
kind of a disaster in a lot ofways, but it did also pour
gasoline on the fire of people,you know, recognizing what might
be possible or might be able tobe done with online education
as well.
Ruth Werner (05:26):
The big thing for me is that, because my
continuing education classes arealmost entirely lecture-based,
people have discovered that I doa good webinar, do a good
(05:49):
webinar and the consequences Ihave been teaching, you know,
for AMTA chapters and otherorganizations probably about the
same as I did pre, you know, inthe before times, but I'm doing
most of it here from my deskand and instead of, you know,
going away for a weekend andteaching 16 hours over over two
or three days.
Now I, you know, teach a threehour class once a month or
(06:13):
something like that, and I havemixed feelings about that.
But I'm really glad that mymaterial has been pretty well
received in the format ofdistance learning.
Certainly, it would be muchharder to you know, teach a
technique class or an assessmentclass or something like that
(06:34):
without you know, without beingthere in person.
Corey Rivera (06:41):
Now it's 2024 and live classes are back, but
educators are having troublefilling these live classes.
I think we've all settled intoa bit of a rut.
I mean, who doesn't lovelearning in their pajamas?
Heck, I work in my pajamas.
I have lime green Jurassic Parkpants on right now, but in a
time when life seems to becoming at us from all sides,
(07:01):
there often doesn't feel likethere's enough time to make
dinner, let alone dedicate a dayor two to a live class.
However, there are things youcan't learn online and, more
importantly, experiences youcan't have.
Here's Whitney again.
Whitney Lowe (07:15):
I think you know what works well, what works best
.
Live is teaching.
You know movement skills,psychomotor skills, so that's
where you know the massagetechnique.
Things definitely do excel.
The classroom also is great forthe cohesive interactivity that
happens between students,between students and the teacher
, and the communication thathappens, the immediate questions
(07:38):
that come up, the answers, thediscussions that pop out of
questions that come up to letyou think about things, and just
the social aspect of learning,of doing this in communication
with other people.
That's really very effectiveand some of the things that are
most powerful in the classroom,I think.
Corey Rivera (07:57):
I also talked to HealWell's Education Director,
Rebecca Sturgeon, about thebenefits of in-person learning.
Rebecca is the squishy heart ofHealWell.
Rebecca Sturgeon (08:09):
I could try to explain that statement, but I
think you'll hear what I mean.
I think any chance that youhave to take yourself out of
your routine for any amount oftime and sort of immerse
yourself in learning in the waythat you can only do in person
with other people it allows.
I think it does something toyour brain and I wish I had
(08:32):
research behind this, but maybeCorey will find it for me
someday but I think it doessomething to your brain and your
brain's preparedness for takingin and processing new
information.
Corey Rivera (08:46):
I found the research, by the way, and it
does indeed change you.
But I'll let Rebecca finish herthought.
Rebecca Sturgeon (08:52):
I think it also makes you a more creative
practitioner, because takingyourself out of your out of your
environment for a while andlearning something new when you
go back if you've paid attention, when you go back to your
environment, you see itdifferently and you may be able
to see things or do things thatdidn't seem possible before.
(09:13):
I also think the in-personlearning, the social aspect of
it, is really important, and Isay this as an introvert right.
I think being in a room withother humans who are learning
the same thing and maybestruggling with the same thing
that you're struggling with, isreally valuable, really involved
(09:48):
.
I think you learn them betterwhen you have people who are
having the same struggle,because it's it's you have
someone to regulate your nervoussystem against, and it's not,
rather not just the face on thescreen, even if the face on the
screen is in real time, like youand I in a room together,
versus you and I talking realtime over Zoom.
Corey Rivera (10:11):
And now a research tidbit.
The term Rebecca was lookingfor is transformative learning.
Transformative learning is aterm that was originally coined
by a sociologist named JackMesereau in 1978.
It's when an adult student hasan experience that literally
changes their worldview.
The first step intransformative learning is a
disorienting dilemma.
The student realizes theirperspective doesn't quite fit
(10:33):
the reality.
This can happen suddenly, likeduring a life crisis, or it can
happen gradually.
The dilemma causes self-doubt,which allows the student to take
in new information and generatenew ideas.
An important part oftransformative learning is
self-reflection, and eventuallythe student builds confidence in
their new way of thinking andbeing.
Naturally, there's a ton moreto the concept of transformative
(10:55):
learning, but that's not reallythe topic of this episode.
If you want to read more aboutit on your own, there's a few
links in the show notes.
Rebecca Sturgeon (11:09):
In the meantime, here's a great story
about the transformativelearning that happens in the
live clinic part of HealWell'sin-person oncology classes.
The live clinic in the oncologyclass oh, I love the live
clinic.
So I mean what it is on paperis you get the chance to offer a
full massage 60 minutes, six,zero minutes, um to a human who
has an experience with a cancerdiagnosis and or a cancer
(11:32):
treatment.
So you do the intake, you dothe massage, you do the whole
thing like a whole session.
Um, what it actually is, um,what it actually is is it's,
it's magic, and I I I'm notsaying that lightly, because
what happens with the, with theclinic session, is that
(11:54):
everything that people havelearned up to this point, you
know, for the past two days orfor the past however many hours
of online and the past two days,um, it all comes together with
stakes.
Right, because this is anactual human.
They're not actors in ourclinics and what happens is that
people this is a generalization, but people immediately forget
(12:19):
that they know how to do thingsand panic.
And then another advantage ofthe live class they're always
like with their co-students,their colleagues, and then you
know, the person that they'rewith calms them down or not, or
they bring an instructor overand the instructor calms them
down and they get to work andthey realize that that right,
(12:44):
still know how to be a massagetherapist, still know how to
plan a session, still know howto do an intake conversation, um
, and there's always a point inthe live clinic where, uh, it
starts in the energy is likereally spiky and really, uh,
nervous, and you know it's.
It's a lot to kind of containthat, but that's part of our job
(13:06):
, you know, as instructors, tokind of contain that and hold
that.
And there's always a point atwhich, like I imagine it as a
cardiograph or cardiogram, thatis real spiky and real spiky and
real spiky.
And then suddenly it's justcalm, just calm and it's and you
(13:27):
can see people sort of realizeI'm doing this and I can do this
and I enjoy doing this, um, soit's, it's a beautiful moment
where everything comes togetherreally, Cause we can practice in
class and we can talk and wecan do scenarios and we can do
(13:48):
case studies and all of that isvaluable.
But where it actually happens isin the live clinic, where you
are in the way that massagetherapists are, you're connected
to a client with this newinformation.
Therapist, are you're connectedto a client with this new
information and you realize thatthe new information doesn't
(14:09):
change your ability to connectwith the client.
So it's actually it's prettyawesome.
Corey Rivera (14:21):
Before we move on, I want Rebecca to tell you what
her first in-person class afterthe COVID crisis was like.
Rebecca Sturgeon (14:27):
The first in-person class I taught after
COVID was an oncology massageworkshop in just outside of
Chicago and it was a real smallgroup, you know, small enough
that we almost didn't run theclass, but we're like no, you
know what, let's do it.
It's the first one and it washard.
I'm not going to say it waseasy.
It was hard because, inaddition to this being the first
(14:48):
live class that I'd taught inlike three years, this was also
a group of people that was thatbrought a lot into the room.
They brought a lot in terms ofskill and compassion and just
care for each other, but also interms of what they were dealing
with in their lives.
Um so it was a lot, but theytook such beautiful care of each
(15:11):
other.
Like for three days I saw themtake such every live class I've
ever taught Like before thenpeople took care of each other,
but not like this.
It was amazing.
Um, so the last day of class, weall walk out of the place
together and the person who wassort of taking care of the venue
locked the door.
(15:32):
We're all standing on thecorner kind of saying goodbye
and getting ready to walk backto our various places where we
were staying, nobody moved.
It's November in Chicago, it'scold, nobody would move, nobody
would cross the street.
Like there's this tight littlegroup of people that didn't want
to leave each other becausethey just had these three days
(15:52):
that they'd been missing for,didn't realize that they'd been
missing for three years andthey're just.
It was beautiful, it was reallybeautiful.
Corey Rivera (16:05):
The last thing I want to touch on are a few
comments Whitney had about howMassage thinks about continuing
education in general.
He doesn't use the termbiopsychosocial, but I'm happy
to say that word as many timesas necessary for it to catch on,
so I will Biopsychosocial,Remember bio is only one third
(16:28):
of the word.
Whitney Lowe (16:28):
But, holy cow, is the bio part so much easier to
market on social media?
Yeah, because I mean it getsmarketed a lot as take my class,
learn my magical technique andyou will either increase your
income or heal everybody intotreatments, kind of thing.
You know, there's a lot of thatpervasive still and that really
gets under my skin because it'sthat's not really what it's
(16:49):
about at all, nor is that reallyrealistic.
But a lot of that still existsand so those attitudes you know
are still out there a great deal.
And when you talk about ROI andrecognizing that in terms of
value of education.
You know, one of the otherthings that really bothers me a
lot about continuing educationin our field is it has really
(17:09):
been for a long time andcontinues to be a perception
that continuing education meanslearning a new massage technique
, something new and different todo with your hands.
That's what a CE course is allabout, and people don't
understand or recognize thevalue of.
There's a whole bunch of otherstuff out there that you really
(17:30):
could benefit tremendously fromand learn a great deal about to
make yourself a much moresuccessful and well-rounded
clinician.
That doesn't necessarily haveto do with learning to do
something new with your hands.
You know learning a newpsychomotor skill with your
hands.
You know learning a newpsychomotor skill.
Corey Rivera (17:44):
To wrap up, I asked Ruth, whitney and Rebecca
about what they love to teachand what they love to learn.
I really enjoy getting peopleto talk about their favorite
things.
Both Ruth and Rebecca answeredboth questions with one answer.
Ruth Werner (17:59):
I have an ethics class that I love to teach and I
particularly love to teach itlive.
I have adapted it for webinars,but it's a it comes in a poor
second.
So it's called.
It's called the ethics ofclient communication talking to
people, talking to clients abouttheir health and it is based on
(18:20):
active communication skillsSorry, and it's based on active
listening skills combined withreal life scenarios that people
have shared with me over theyears.
And what I love about this classis that we may get you know, we
may end up with a scenario thatis from 20 years ago in Nova
(18:43):
Scotia or one that was from sixmonths ago in San Francisco
right, but it's so.
It's.
It's massage therapists sharingtheir experiences over the
globe and over the decades witheach other.
And one of the things I loveabout that class is I talk for
about an hour, maybe an hour anda half, and the rest of it is
(19:06):
small group work where peopleget together and they gather
around tables and they workthrough these scenarios, and I
kind of hate to say the RP wordbecause it turns people off, but
it does involve role-playing.
Corey Rivera (19:21):
It's not a win-sit exactly.
So I think I don't thinkrole-playing is bad or useless.
I think that it's really easyfor people who are uninterested
to like say we role-played andcheck the box and just move on
with life.
I think it's it's easy to dobadly and I think when it's done
(19:42):
well, it's like it's prettygreat.
But I think when it's done well, it's like it's pretty great.
But I think it takes a lot ofpractice by the person who's
facilitating to do it well.
Ruth Werner (19:54):
I, I agree, but I and, and so during the role play
part of that course.
I am literally flying aroundthe room to listen to all of
these conversations happeningaround the tables and and some
of the things I like about thisis a, people can discharge a lot
of fear and anxiety aboutpathologies.
(20:14):
And B, people can use thatopportunity to do something in
massage therapy we almost neverget to do, which is to share
their experiences.
We, you know, we live I keeptalking about how we work in our
little sacred pink bubbles,which is lovely and beautiful
(20:37):
and as it should be right.
Nothing should really begetting through that membrane,
but sometimes we need todischarge.
It may be something wonderful.
I had a client who had thisproblem and I tried something
new and it was amazing and Iwant everybody to know.
Or sometimes it's really hard.
I have a client who had thisproblem and I could not figure
out how to help them and Ifinally gave up, and that's you
(20:59):
know.
It's really important for us tobe able to share those kinds of
conversations respectfully andwithin appropriate boundaries
with each other, and that ethicsclass provides a space to do
that, and I love listening tothose stories.
It's just wonderful and itfills me with joy about this
(21:23):
profession because, bydefinition, the people who come
to a class like that are theyjust want to get better, they
just want to really get betterat what they do, and I will work
with those people all day long.
Corey Rivera (21:38):
Here's Rebecca's favorite thing to learn.
Rebecca Sturgeon (21:42):
I actually really love talking to people
about how to um, regulate theirnervous system as practitioners,
and, and how to uh, and, andhow to, how to be a better human
(22:02):
.
You know, to be the kind ofhuman who can stand in the face
of people who are in extremistsand hold that.
I actually I love teaching that, because it's impossible to
teach, it's absolutelyimpossible to teach you, just
you.
Corey Rivera (22:22):
It's metaphors, it's all metaphors and my last
question is what do you like tolearn?
Rebecca Sturgeon (22:27):
It's like a creative challenge.
Same thing, literally the samething.
Whitney Lowe (22:41):
And here's Whitney one more time concepts for
people, because it's one ofthose things that I think people
just don't get taught a lot,and I love seeing those light
bulbs go off of peoplerecognizing how important it is
(23:04):
to go through some of theseprocesses to figure out how they
can best help somebody, whenthey have a better idea of
what's really happening withthem and you know again, more so
than just learning a technique,they're often learning how to
be a really effective clinicianand work with people in a much
more engaging way and reallymake very significant
(23:25):
differences in people's lives.
Corey Rivera (23:26):
What's your favorite thing to learn?
Whitney Lowe (23:27):
I love seeing that process happen.
Corey Rivera (23:31):
Take your time.
Whitney Lowe (23:34):
Oh, wow, favorite thing to learn.
Corey Rivera (23:36):
I wouldn't do that to you.
Whitney Lowe (23:38):
Does this have to be limited to our field?
Because, like, wow, favoritething to learn, I don't know.
It probably depends on the day.
You know, like, what my mood is.
You know there's times when Ilove learning about our field.
I love reading medical journalsand diving into an orthopedics
(23:58):
problem.
There's days when I lovelearning about music, you know.
There's days when I lovelearning about systems theory
and nature, you know, and thingslike that.
You know geology, you knowthere's all kinds of things that
can spark my interest and makeme interested in learning.
So it depends on my mood.
(24:19):
That's probably where I'll livewith that.
Corey Rivera (24:25):
And that concludes our brief study of in-person
education.
If you enjoyed this podcast,please leave us a five-star
review on Apple Podcasts,because apparently anything less
is considered a negative.
You can also join us in thecommunity at
communityhealwellorg for a hotwash of the ABMP school forum
that happened on April 5th and6th.
I give a great rundown of theconference and also rail about
(24:45):
Silicon Valley attitudes beingshoehorned into massage therapy
If you want to experience thelive clinic
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