April 4, 2025 • 43 mins
On this week's episode of The Rural Woman Podcast™, you'll meet Laurie Mazer.
Laurie Mazer is an experienced founder and entrepreneur with a 20 year history of developing solar and wind projects of every size and scale, in every corner of the US. She also helps her clients to provide mentorship of their growing teams and to develop successful wind and solar projects in Texas, Oklahoma, Ohio and many other states. She is the co-founder of a mid-size solar development company focused on community sized solar projects where she uses her years of experience to site, permit, and ultimately build solar projects in Pennsylvania.
For full show notes, including links mentioned in the show, head over to wildrosefarmer.com/crop-america
. . .
DISCUSSIONS THIS WEEK:
[01:27] - Introduction to Renewable Energy Leadership
[10:27] - Choosing Sites for Renewable Energy Projects
[18:25] - Coexistence of Renewable Energy Projects and Agriculture
[22:33] - Economic Benefits of Renewable Energy in Agriculture
[26:34] - Planning for the Future of Renewable Energy Projects
[30:32] - Benefits of Renewable Energy Projects for Local Communities
[36:41] - Hopes for the Future of Renewable Energy
. . .
This week's episode is brought to you by CROP America
. . .
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:40):
Hi, I'm Katelyn Duban and thisis the Rural Woman Podcast. I'm a
first generation farmer whomarried into agriculture. Born and
raised in a city, I was sounfamiliar with where my food came
from, but I was determined tofigure it out. Through my journey
into agriculture, I saw womenwho were strong but humble, often
(01:03):
taking a backseat. To me.These women were leaders who deserved
a seat at the table. I createdthe Rural Women Podcast to share
the voices of women in anindustry whose stories often went
untold. The ruralentrepreneurs who live and breathe
their work full of grit andpride. We come here to share our
(01:27):
stories, to be in communitywith each other, to be challenged
and inspired, but mostimportantly, to be celebrated and
to be heard. We may not alllive farm, ranch or homestead the
same, but we are allconnected. We are rural women and
our stories are worthy ofbeing told. Hey everyone. Welcome
(01:57):
back to this special featuredepisode of the Rural Woman Podcast.
Today you'll meet Laurie Mazer.
Laurie is an experiencedfounder and entrepreneur.
With a 20 year history ofdeveloping solar and wind projects
of every size and scale inevery corner of the U.S. she also
helps her clients to providementorship of their growing teams
(02:18):
and to develop successful windand solar projects in Texas, Oklahoma,
Ohio and many other states.She is the co founder of a mid sized
solar development companyfocused on community sized solar
solar projects where she usesher years of experience to site permit
and ultimately build solarprojects in Pennsylvania. I want
(02:41):
to give a big thank you tothose of you who saw and answered
our call for questions over onthe Rural Woman Podcast social media
pages. Be sure if you're notfollowing on Instagram, Facebook
and threads, you find us overat the Rural Woman Podcast. Without
further ado, let's get to ourconversation today with Laurie Foreign.
(03:08):
Welcome to the Real WomanPodcast. How are you today?
I'm really well Katelyn. Howare you?
I'm doing so well. Thank youso much for joining me. This is a
topic that we're talking abouttoday that I am super interested
in learning more about and itsounds like my listeners are too.
That's great.
I'm excited for the folks whoare unfamiliar with you, Laurie,
(03:32):
give us your background, tellus who you are, what where you're
from and how you got startedin renewable energy.
So I have been doing renewableenergy for the last 20 years. So
on the development side, whichmeans figuring out all the bits and
pieces that need to cometogether to make a project actually
get built. So I've worked onutility scale wind projects, community
(03:54):
scaled solar projects andutility scale solar projects throughout
my career. Yeah. And I livecurrently in Pennsylvania. I used
to live on the west coast andI have traveled, I think, to almost
every state in the US andprobably worked on energy projects
in almost all of them with alot of time spent in the Midwest
like Nebraska and Oklahoma and Texas.
(04:17):
Very cool. What got youstarted in renewable energy?
I think. I don't know ifanyone else felt idealistic and bright
and shiny when they were intheir 20s, but I felt like I really
wanted to do somethingimpactful and, and I had been hearing
a lot about wind energyprojects. This was 2004, so quite
(04:38):
a while ago. And so I had beenhearing a lot about wind energy projects
and offshore wind and wind andsolar projects in Europe. And I interviewed
as kind of just an officemanager at a company that was doing
those projects throughout theUS and in the uk and I got a job
as an office manager. Andprobably one of the luckiest things
(04:59):
is I, I ended up working forsomeone who was deeply devoted to
mentorship. So just someonewho really, I will, I'll give myself
a little credit that I didspend my lunch hour kind of like
on the Danish wind energysite, trying to figure out how people
knew where it was windy versusnot windy, and asking lots of questions.
But I really had someone whotook that curiosity and said, well,
(05:22):
you know, this is enthusiasmand we can harness it. And gave me
a lot of early opportunitiesto travel to Texas and to meet with
landowners and to start reallyunderstanding what it takes to build
a complex energy project.
Very cool. And I love what yousaid about harnessing the energy
of a 20 year old. I wish wecould bottle that and sell it somehow.
(05:42):
Oh my goodness. And like, andreally like also to have that mentorship
wisdom, to put up with a lotof the kind of overly exuberant,
you know, things that go witha 20 year old who's like, wait, what
about this? And they're like,yeah, in due time. But I really,
I didn't ever feel tempered. Ijust felt really supported. And so,
yeah, and also the landownersI met were wonderful farmers who'd
(06:05):
been stewards of their familylands for generations. And so there
was just such a great learningboth ways. Both me learning my career
and then also learning a lotabout agriculture in the US and in
other places.
Yeah, absolutely. I'm justcurious out of a personal note, your
connection with agriculture orrural America, before you started
(06:27):
in this career, what were kindof some of your first memories around?
Food being grown?
Yeah, so I grew up in a prettysmall Town. And I grew up, my best
friend, her dad was, wassomeone who farmed. And like I do
remember hay baling with themas a kid and riding horses on their
farm and being very jealousthat they had a horse. And her dad
just telling me that it wasonly a headache and a giant way,
(06:50):
way to eat through money, thatthat's what horses were good for,
is spending money on. So,yeah, so I grew up in a pretty rural
small town community and justreally saw, I saw a lot of the boredom
that I had as a teenager andthis kind of thirst for understanding
and learning more and thenadditionally to my own career, some
of the opportunities forindependence and sustainability and
(07:16):
kind of community choice inwhat you want and building the environment
in community with your friendsand neighbors that reflects what
you want and your values. Andso that, that does actually fit in
with renewable energy, whichis kind of weird, but it really does.
Energy independence and theidea that we can choose power sources
(07:37):
and how we want to power ourfarms and our schools and things
like that and make decisionsand choices about that.
So Laurie, what defines autility scale renewable energy project
and how does it work?
Yeah, so I'll keep it reallysimple, which is just the idea that
it's really similar to anyother power plant. And I think maybe,
(08:00):
maybe other folks are like, Iwas where I didn't spend a lot of
time thinking about whathappened before I flipped a light
switch. But all throughout ourworld there are power lines, which
I think people are prettyfamiliar with, of different voltages.
And then there are differentpower plants that are fueled by different
things. So a renewable energyutility scale project is a project
that's big. So it's one thatcan serve, you know, hundreds and
(08:22):
thousands of homes with theelectricity. So it's different than
the solar panels on your roofor the homeowner wind turbine in
your backyard that just feedsyour own house. They're large scale
projects that areinterconnected to the high voltage
grid. So they operate just inthe same way the power plant does,
where they send their energyback into the, into the large electrical
(08:44):
grid. And renewable reallyjust means the idea. I think I had
a, I did a career day at aschool last week and one of the kids
said, well, actually the sunis dying, so it's not renewable when
the sun dies. Like it's not. Isaid, okay, within our lifetime and
the next thousand lifetimestimes before the sun dies, we consider
(09:05):
that we don't have to pay forsunshine and that it comes up every
day whether or not we dosomething so we don't have to extract
it from the ground and wedon't have to mine for it or anything
like that. So it's. Renewableresources are things that we think
of usually that have low tozero emissions in their energy production,
that we just use a naturalresource that is already existing
(09:26):
without having to go and getit. So like a coal or a natural gas
being different thanrenewables in that way.
You have to love the thingsthat come out of kids mouths.
Well, sometimes they're like alittle bit smarter than some of the
things that come out ofadults. I was like, yes, sir, you
are right. That is, that is,that is a flaw in my definition.
I agree. So it was reallygood. Out of the mouths of babes,
(09:48):
you know, Right.
The way that you described it,you know, of power poles, like it's
just a different power poleand I've never thought of it that
way. And it's funny because,you know, in agriculture and in rural
settings there can be that,you know, pushback when it comes
to renewable energy. And we'regoing to talk about that a little
bit. But to put it in thesense of do we really protest power
(10:11):
poles? Not often. Right. Sothere's always that different piece
of looking at it. So thank youfor saying that. That was, that was
my light switch moment ofrenewable energy.
Yeah, exactly. It is. It's ourbuilt environment and it's how we
actually power our lives. Butwe don't have to engage with it a
lot. But that is what'sdifferent about doing development
(10:33):
in rural communities is youreally do have to engage with it
and you have to understandwhat, how the impacts will be on
the local community.
Absolutely. So something thatI did before we sat down for our
interview is I asked mycommunity online through the Rural
Women podcast, Facebook groupand Instagram threads even. I asked
everywhere what were yourquestions for Laurie. And we got
(10:56):
quite a few of them and I'mgoing to intertwine them through
our conversation today. Butone of the questions that came up
quite often was how do youchoose where to put this renewable
energy source? Whether it'swind turbines or solar power. How
do you choose whichagricultural land that you are going
(11:19):
to. To put your new projects?
I know, and I think everyonethinks I just choose the one that's
next to their house when theydon't want it. That isn't actually
my rubric and that isn't therubric of it. And there is so much
thought that goes into these,the sighting of these projects and,
and maybe I'll just give atiny piece to like the larger energy
infrastructure. Like where dowe need power? Like that's, that's
(11:41):
definitely a consideration.Like where are utilities? Where is
there not enough generationeither because coal plants are coming
offline or because like Texas,there's so much load growth that
we really just like we'reexperiencing price spikes and outages
and things like that becausethere isn't enough energy. So that's
always in the background. Andthen the kind of more nitty gritty,
which is what I think yourcommunity was talking about, is how
(12:02):
do we pick the place. And Ithink we basically use a lot of mapping
technology to show us wherethere are wetlands, where there are
threatened and endangeredspecies, where there are national
monuments, and we avoid all ofthose places. We try and avoid places
with, you know, nearhistorical sites, things like that,
(12:23):
where they, where a projectwon't be able to kind of fit in with
the community. And thenanother piece is just a kind of what
we talked about of thephysical environment. It needs to
be near transmission lines. Sousually if you're already looking
at power poles, you've gotelectricity moving through your area.
And what we try to do is siteour projects near to those power
poles so we can get our powerto market. Another consideration
(12:45):
that I think is reallyimportant is the willingness like
we, we call people. And that'sa lot of my job is just having those
very awkward firstconversations where I say, like,
hey, your property has areally strong wind resource or really
strong solar resource and isright near our power line and we're
interested in talking to youif this is something that you are
interested in doing and it'ssomething that doesn't cost the landowner
(13:08):
any money. It's not really,it's something where we pay them,
but it is a, it's a 30 yearrelationship. It's a long term lease.
And as we've said, it's notfor nothing. Wind turbines are quite
large, you can't really hidethem. Solar panels, we do a lot around
screening and all that, but itis something that will be their neighbor
for 30 years. So we really tryand explain to them all those pieces.
(13:29):
And we don't have the power ofeminent domains, so we only site
projects where landowners areexcited and willing to host them.
Very interesting. So take methrough the process. I'm a farmer.
I get the phone call fromLaurie saying, hey, have you ever
considered this? What is itlike for a farmer to lease land to
(13:50):
our renewable energy project?
I think it's really, I wasjoking with A. With a rancher the
other day about how we justoperate on a timescale of kind of
waiting and seasons and thatthings seem to go really slow until
all of a sudden, just like aharvest, all of a sudden, everything's
happening at once. And that's,that's a little bit with the development
process is like when alandowner first engages with me,
(14:12):
I usually. And most of thecompanies and good industry practice
is to. If someone's interestedin leasing the land, you send them
a copy of a document that willbe the lease agreement that they
sign, and then you work withthem to help them find local counsel,
like someone who can be theirlawyer. Because you're often negotiating
as a landowner with a largercorporate entity that has, you know,
(14:33):
that has more experience inthis than you do. So I'm always really
cautious and advise landownersthat they should, if they want to
get legal representation, theyshould feel really, really empowered
to do that. So they understandevery bit of this contract that governs
our relationship for the next30 years. And then once we've entered
into an agreement, we haveusually a development time period,
(14:55):
which is when we go out and weget permits. We do studies about
the types of soil, we dostudies about erosion. We design
our power plant, our solarenergy facility, our solar farm or
our wind farm to be ascompatible with the local environment
as we can. And that's. That'sto be good stewards. But additionally,
(15:15):
it's to, like, keep theproject, you know, well maintained.
You don't want erosion andsoils leaving the ground, and you
don't want to cause runoff orthings like that. So we really do
a lot of studies. You doenvironmental studies and you do
land surveys to make sure thatyou know exactly what's out there
and where the propertyboundary lines and everything. And
then you start to design yourproject. And then we also work with
(15:38):
the local utility or with theauthority of the power lines and
talk to them about what needsto happen to be able to put this
project into the grid systemwithout causing any blackouts or
any issues. So they study usand they often tell us what kind
of upgrades, like what we haveto pay for to make the grid more
stable to allow the projectin. Yeah. And so then we're kind
(15:58):
of trucking along and this isusually like, I think the fastest
project I've ever seen waslike 18 months from signing the lease
until wind turbines beingconstructed. And so usually it's
a bit longer, between three tofive years. And then we show the
landowner the design, we workwith them to figure out if everything
is sited in a way that workswith them. We get our local permits
(16:19):
and we get our, any otherfederal permits, we get our permission
to interconnect and then westart construction. And that's like
a six to 12 month period. Andthat's probably, that's what I advise
people. That's when you'rereally going to know we're there.
It's a big major constructionproject and having that day to day
contact with your constructionmanager and then once the project's
(16:39):
operational, there's a lot ofgrass growing, there's some sunlight
shining and there's some windturbines spinning, hopefully, and
they're really not intrusive.If they've been well sited, then
they just become a part of thelandscape and a part of the built
environment that is aroundyou. But that construction period
(16:59):
is probably the most taxingfrom a landowner perspective.
There's just so much that goesinto it that, you know, when we think
of it as a farmer, we think,oh, that's really overwhelming. There's
too many things to do. Butlike you said, you know, it's not
a lot of the farmer doing theactual crossing the T's and dotting
the I's. It's, you know, theyhave agreed to this and now the experts
(17:22):
get to come in and do whatthey do best.
That's totally true. I thinkthe key piece though, that I often,
and that I'm sure you and yourlisteners would feel aligned with
is just that the expertise ofthe local community is huge. Like,
I have learned, I mean,because I'm weird and interested.
I've learned a lot aboutlonghorn cattle, but I've also learned
about the effect of, like,what time. If we start our construction
(17:44):
in the middle of lambingseason, we need to be sure that we've
got a plan in place forrelocating those lambs that are birthing
ewes. You know, we have todecide and like, is that going to
be traumatic? And if there isloss, loss of, of any crops or anything
like that, how are we going tofigure out the damages? And how do
we have that conversation withthe landowner? And I had a Great1
maybe 2 years ago where Icalled someone, I said, hey, Tom,
(18:06):
we're probably going to startconstruction mid September. And he's
like, laurie, you're going tohave to pay all the crop damages.
Could you wait 10 days? Like,if it's September 15th versus September
31st, like, or 30th, like,that's a huge difference. And I was
like, oh, yes. Let us startover here in this corner and then
work our way towards the beansor whatever it was that needed to
(18:26):
be harveste harvested. So Ithink there's, there's a lot that
goes into it. There's a lotin. And it's supposed to be pretty
effortless from the landownerperspective, but there should be
a good amount of learning onthe developer side of really understanding
the person who's been there onthe farm or on the property for so
long and, and incorporatingthat into the design and operation
of the facility.
(18:47):
And what I'm taking from thatand the overall theme is communication
and communicating whatexpectations are from the energy
provider and the farmer. Let'stalk more about how these projects
can coexist with agriculture.You had mentioned livestock and that
(19:07):
was one of the questions thatcame in from one of the listeners
is how can we includelivestock or even other crops growing
within these projects that canreally continue to build the environment
as well as take the energyfrom it?
Yeah. So there's a lot ofopportunity. I think we're at the
(19:30):
beginning. So wind turbinesare a little bit easier because they,
the geographic space they takeup is vertical. Right. So it's like
they're up in the air andreally you can run cattle, you can
plant right up to the corner.I've worked with center pivot irrigation.
You know, you just, you takeout a section of pivot but you're
still able to irrigate yourcrop in the same way and just work
around the wind turbine. Ithink solar panels are a more intensive
(19:53):
use and so I think what you'retalking about with the coexistence
is really important and Ithink what has happened has been
great is there's a ton ofsheep grazing that's already happening.
So much so that there areactually more solar projects wanting
sheep grazing because it'ssuch a win win. It's a very low touch
way to keep grass low enoughso that it doesn't shadow the solar
(20:15):
panels. So it's reallybenefit. You know, we'd have to be
out there with mowing crews,but in fact if we have sheep grazing,
we can do that. And then therehave been some great projects in
Maine with low busblueberries. And I know there are
a couple of pilot projects inColorado with where they're looking
for farmers who are interestedin growing beneath solar panels.
So the idea that you wouldhave these kind of slightly more
(20:39):
elevated. So right now solarpanels probably at their tip height
all the way like this, it'slike eight feet to the ground. So
they're not particularly tall,but if you raise them up, you could
start to really growunderneath them. You need shade tolerant
crops and things like that.But the thing that I need someone
to invent is goats and cowsthat don't mess with the wires. I
(21:02):
mean, cows are out therescratching on their solar panels
and just wreck them. And thegoats, they just eat all the wires.
So chickens are totally fineand sheep are totally fine. But we
have yet to find, maybe wecould raise the panels up high enough
that the cows wouldn't botherthem. But it's been, I think those
are the two challenges is someof the nature of the, of the livestock
(21:23):
out there and what, howcurious they are and kind of strong.
So that's, that's been a challenge.
I can tell you for certain asa woman who owns goats that are currently
outside my office, they willdo anything to ruin it. They will
jump on it, they will eat it, anything.
(21:45):
No. And someone can tell youthat who's an expert on goats. And
then of course, if you're asolar person, you're like, I'm gonna
see what happens. And I'veseen the videos and they're, they're
literally prancing on top ofthe solar panels, not a bother in
the world, chewing on thewires. And it's just, it's dangerous
and it's not good for anyone.So, yeah, we definitely, we need
to either find goats thataren't curious about anything or
(22:06):
we need to figure out a wayto, to make the panels, you know,
withstand the force of a goat.
Absolutely. If anybody canfigure that out, please let us know.
Write us immediately.
Exactly. No, I think it'strue. Well, I will say someone figured
out just, you know, 10 yearsinto MIC or five years ago, like
that bifacial panels that youcould put silicon on both sides of
(22:26):
it and there was enoughbalance back light off of the ground
if the ground wasn't black,that it was worth it to do that.
So I'm really here fortechnology. I'm sure one of your
listeners has a great solutionto my goat problem and to my cow
problem, and I would love tohear it.
Absolutely. If anybody has aproblem, ask a farmer or a rancher,
because I'm sure they canfigure it out. It's MacGyver.
(23:52):
That is very, very true. Idefinitely have experienced that.
So in your 20 plus years ofexperience, what have been, you know,
the biggest pros that you'veseen with renewable energy versus
what have been some of thecons has there been in that 20 years.
Yeah, exactly. And I always,you know, folks, folks can listen
(24:14):
to this and they know that Iwork in this industry and I've worked
in a long time. And there areplaces to go, like there's a Center
for Rural Opportunity andPower that has a website that has
a bunch of information kind ofwith these pros and cons that, that
people can use as a resource.But additionally, yeah, some of the
stuff I've experienced in mycareer is just some of the pros are
in Pennsylvania. Our dairyindustry got really hit hard and
(24:36):
folks had a hard time keepingfamily farms or convincing second
generation, third, fourthgeneration to stick around. So we
were able to install solarpanels on a portion of a dairy farm
and to allow that landowner tohave kind of a steady revenue stream
that he could count on. Soit's like a lease payment that's
always going to come. So itgave some operational security to
(24:58):
him and made it so he didn'thave to sell or figure out another
way to keep his land. So someof the economic benefits, additionally,
you work in a state like Ohio,in the United States, we have a tax
program where the solarprojects and wind projects pay a
different property tax andthat goes directly into the local
school community. So there areways in which these projects kind
(25:19):
of benefit. Additionally, justthe idea of providing learning to
local kids and schoolcommunities and all that about what
renewable energy is, you know,that's, that's an, kind of an incidental
benefit. But a lot of theeconomic benefit and the ability
to keep farms and as we'vementioned before, kind of wind turbines,
their footprint is prettysmall and they don't take up a lot
(25:41):
of area. And so a farmer cankind of continue, a rancher can continue
doing what they've alwaysdone. And then with a solar farm,
like we've said, there can besome grazing opportunity. But additionally
the land isn't a solar farmafter 35 years or 30 years or so.
So there's a removal bondthat's usually placed, that should
be placed on any good projectthat would remove the solar. And
(26:02):
then you think about it thatthe, the soil's had a chance, it's
had about 30 years to rest andit just continues to be owned by
the same people that wholetime. So the next generation can
make a decision about whatthey want to do. Which brings me
to like some of the cons andthe things I always ask people to
really consider is it's a 30year lease, it's a very long time.
(26:23):
So to really think about whatdo you want what view shed is important
to you? Is there a hickorytree or something that was like,
of significance to your familythat you really don't want anyone
to cut, or you don't want tohave the view from a particular homestead
location blocked, or you wouldreally love to improve a farm road
(26:43):
so that you can get access toa back corner that you've not had
access to. So some of thosethings when, when folks haven't felt
empowered or haven't beenasked to speak up by developers,
then you can kind of see someof that relationship deteriorate
and it's not treated as like apartnership for 30 years. So I think
that's a piece that I justalways tell people to really consider
is that this is a, it's a bigcommitment and it's a long term relationship
(27:05):
you're entering into. So doingit for a quick monetary gain is one
portion of it. Butadditionally as a long term stewardship
plan and part of estateplanning or part of like planning
with the next generation.Those are my favorite conversations
when I'm sitting down with twoor three generations and it's kind
of like I've been talking todad and the son comes in or I've
(27:27):
been talking to mom and thedaughter and son come in and they're
like, and then we all get, youknow, and then it becomes real brass
tacks and they ask you a lotof questions. And that I feel like
really gets down to whateverybody wants to do and what's
the priority. And sometimeshaving this additional revenue stream
on a portion of, or the entirefarm can allow families to, to keep
(27:47):
land that's been in theirfamily for a long time around and
in the family. So, yeah, it'sreally important.
I, I think it's, you know, theway that you described it, you know,
you're making this long termcommitment. And I'm thinking to myself,
landowners might not be herein 30 years from today when they
make this decision. Right. Soit is on the next generation, whether
(28:10):
that's a child or a businesspartner or whatever it is. So really
it's, it's a transitionplanning conversation more than it
is a renewable energy conversation.
It is, yeah. And it's like,it's what we're going to be doing
for the, it's a plan aboutwhat's going to happen with the land
and what's the ultimate goalwith the land and how does that align
and how does a renewableenergy project align with the vision
(28:31):
that the family has and thatthe community has. And so I think
it's my job usually tofacilitate and thread that needle.
But I think it's always easierwhen people feel comfortable to speak
up. So I think that that partof doing this work and talking to
you is so that people feelarmed with a little bit more information
so they can kind of ask thosequestions and feel a real sense of
(28:52):
ownership and pride if they dodecide to go forward with a renewable
energy project.
Absolutely. The number onequestion that my listeners asked
was the decommissioningprocess. What happens after that
20, 30 year contract is doneand or anything in between that happens?
(29:13):
What is the responsibility ofthe farmer in that? And what can
landowners expect?
I think it's critical. I mean,like we just said, you're thinking
about this in the long term.And I don't, I don't think anyone
is more cognizant of the rapidways in which things can suddenly
change than folks who are asconnected to the land as farmers
(29:35):
and ranchers are. So the ideathat I always tell people is I really
hope this doesn't happen, butlet's plan for what if. So what if
something happens like atornado comes through or something,
Some part of the facility is.So there will. The facilities are
built in such a way that theycan withstand kind of all the local
(29:55):
weather systems that comethrough. But additionally, within
your lease docum, and thensometimes at the local county or
township or state level,there's a requirement to post a security
bond. So the idea is thatdecommissioning cost will exist and
will live in a bond or anescrow account or a letter of credit,
(30:15):
whether or not the developeris still there. I think I saw that
maybe some of your listenerstalked about the fact that these
projects get sold, and that isreally true. They're assets. And
making a deal with LaurieMazer is making. You're making a
deal with a larger entity andthe lease is going to be the document
that governs it. Not, youknow, I'll always pick up the phone,
(30:36):
I guess, to my landowners andto anyone I've developed a relationship
with. But I might not liveforever. So I think folks need to
make sure their leaseprovisions require a bond to be posted.
We usually say in like year 5or year 10 or so when the facility's
been up and running and madeits money back. And there is. There's
maybe a little more risk thatsomeone wouldn't do as good a job
(30:56):
maintaining it because they'vekind of made their initial investment
back. And so we reallyencourage people to push for some
sort of security anddecommissioning bond that will allow
anyone, not just thedeveloper, to come in and remove
the facility. And then. Yeah,I mean, and then what is that? It's
the foundations and some ofthe underground cabling or wires
that are used to connect thesolar panels. Those are usually above
(31:19):
ground and except where we'reconnecting big chunks of arrays or
the wind turbines connectingtogether. So you're removing the
solar panels are really just astake that's driven into a steel
pile that's driven into theground, you know, about 10ft. And
so that can get pulled out.And then the foundations of the wind
turbines get either left andcovered over with topsoil, if that's
(31:41):
what the Leonardo wants, orthey can get demoed.
See, there is an answer to allof these questions. You just have
to find the right person to ask.
I know. I'm so glad. I'm soglad to that person because these
are things I wonder about too.Like what happened. You know, you
look around, you're like, whatis going to happen with that when
it's. When there no one wantsto use it anymore? Like what happens
to shopping malls when no onegoes there anymore. I think we've
(32:02):
all seen that. So.
Exactly. They have that bigfour lease sign sit on them for years
and years to come. I want totalk about how renewable energy projects
really benefit localcommunities. What are some of the
benefits that you've seen overthe last 20 years working on these
(32:22):
projects?
Yeah, so some of the, morelike nerdy ones are the ideas that
we actually upgrade theutility lines around us and can kind
of build. Sometimes whenyou're in a rural community, you're
kind of at the end of atransmission line or you're midway.
And if there's a cut or abreak or a problem in the line, you
can be blacked out for apretty long time. So what we do is
(32:43):
when we plug our projects in,they provide power closer to these
local communities. And thenadditionally, we also pay for the
upgrades to the utilitysystem, some of which are related
to our facility and some ofwhich are just required for safe
operations. So we kind of canbuild in some resiliency, maybe upgrade
some power lines, put them onmore stable poles and things like
(33:05):
that. But probably the mostimpactful from a local community
perspective is the tax base.There can be a real strong tax base
that's provided where it cango into. It can either be taxed kind
of in the millage rates thatare already set. So a certain percentage
goes to police, schools, fire,all that or projects can be used
to kind of increase theoverall general fund. And I've seen
(33:28):
projects that have paid forteachers or school buses, fire departments,
additional staff, things likethat. So there's, there's a lot of,
a lot of that. And then, andthen the other piece that we've already
spent a lot of time on, whichis just, just allowing local landowners
to maintain and retain theownership of property that's been
in their family for a longtime with a diversified income stream,
(33:50):
when they've hit a bump orthey anticipate there might be a
bump. So, yeah, I thinkthere's a lot of, A lot of, A lot
of ideas around stability andindependence that really tie in with
renewable energy projects.
We talk about there being thatadditional income for your farm.
What does it do for propertyvalue for your farm?
(34:11):
So this is, these are all thenitty gritty details, Katelyn. It's
like, you know what landownersask ahead of time because really,
right. If I'm putting $100million of equipment on your property,
why should you pay the taxbill? So another key term in your
lease is that any increase inyour property taxes should be borne
by the developer of theproject and the owner of that equipment.
(34:31):
And any good developer willwork to really make sure that if
it's not a subdivision, atleast the local taxing authority
knows how to reach, how to taxtheir solar equipment and work in
an agreement with them and gettax payments from them and that the
agricultural land will remainthere. And then we additionally have,
we always check to see ifthere's CRP or clean and green payments
(34:54):
that are being made to alandowner where there's a rollback
penalty. And that is alsosomething that if by installing a
renewable energy project onyour land, it causes a rollback tax
event for the landowner, thatthat should also be. So there really
shouldn't be any taxdifference. And that should all be
borne by the developer who'schoosing to put this on their project.
(35:16):
The landowner should, shouldbe receiving checks and should, you
know, they'll be dealing witha nuisance of construction, but then
they should be just hopefullyenjoying the revenue and kind of
continued use of theirproperty that either doesn't have
solar panels or is leased tothe, to the wind farm.
So if you are a landowner or afarmer that is listening right now
(35:39):
and wants to get started onthis process or learn more, what
are some good resources? Whocan we turn to?
Yeah, I think some greatplaces, at least in the U.S. the
USDA and a number and the U.S.department of Energy have had a lot
of, of resources in the pastabout renewable energy. And there's
(35:59):
nrel, the National RenewableEnergy Labs in Colorado has a lot
of just excellent studieswhere like the questions around property
tax, the questions aroundscreening, what are best practices,
some of those questions sothat a landowner can come in kind
of armed with their own. Andthen as I mentioned before, there's
the center for RuralOpportunity and Power Crop, which
(36:20):
has its own website. And thoseguys do a good job of trying to present
the pluses and the minuses.And I think once you know the pluses
and the minuses, you can startto really form your questions and
understand like okay. Like,yeah, okay, yeah, someone mentioned
that. Let me ask you a littlebit more. So when are you planning
to post that decommissioningbond? I didn't see it in this lease
(36:42):
agreement. Or what do I haveto do with regard to the permits?
Like do I have to, you know,how is this going to impact me and
my own taxes or things likethat. So I think there are a lot
of good resources that are outthere and I think any developer worth
their salt should want to meetwith you multiple times, should want
to answer all your questionsand should want you to have legal
(37:04):
representation to really helpadvocate for you. Because these are
really complicated, like 30and 40 page lease documents that
we said are going to be ineffect for a really long time. So
not feeling rushed orpressured would be really key components
for me if I was, if I was onthe receiving end of my own phone
call. I would want someone whowas patient and took a lot of time
(37:26):
to explain all the things.
Absolutely. One more plug forcrop America. The YouTube channel
is great. There are so manyfarmer producer stories on there
of people's experience withthese projects that have come up.
So definitely check that out.I will put all of those links in
the show notes for people tofind more information and get the
(37:48):
resources and to get theirquestions answered and honestly find
out more questions that theydidn't know to ask.
Exactly. No. And you're soright about those farmer interviews.
There's nothing better thanseeing someone and those no one out
there is sugarcoating it orsaying things they don't believe.
You know, when they're talkingabout the real, the real impacts
to them and the pluses and theminuses. And I think that's a, that's
(38:10):
a great idea. It's anothergreat resource. It's just listening
to some of those folks talkabout their own experience.
Absolutely. Laurie, what areyour hopes for the future? When it
comes to renewable energy.
Oh, I mean, I think it's beenreally fun to do things like career
day and teach my kids aboutit. But additionally, I really love
my job because I get to go outand talk to people about having a
(38:34):
diverse energy mix, that thereis this opportunity to have some
homegrown solar and windenergy resources that power the country,
power our communities, and allof the needs that we have. You know,
these growing electrical needsthat we have and the ability to serve
those without putting anypollutants into the air and without
(38:54):
kind of contaminating anystreams or anything like that. And
so I'm not one of those peoplewho would say that we can power the
entire world with justrenewable resources. I think we need
to have a pretty good mix ofpower out there. But I do think I've
just seen in my own career,like, kind of exponential growth
and the number of theseprojects to really increase. And
so I'm excited because aseverybody knows, the longer you do
(39:17):
something, the better you getat it. So I really do think we're
going to be hitting kind of aplace where the technology is performing
top notch. And additionally,we've been able to mitigate or incorporate
things like agrivoltaics andfigure out that goat problem you
and I were talking about andget some of these things that have
been issues for the. Forrenewable energy projects solved.
(39:38):
I really have a lot of faithin the creativity and ingenuity of
communities working on theseprojects. So, yeah, I'm really excited
for the future.
Very cool. Well, Laurie, wewill put all of the links that we
mentioned in the show notesabout Crop America for the listeners
who would like to connect withyou and for what you do. Where can
they find you online?
(39:59):
Yeah, so people always find meonline and it's fine to find just
my profile on LinkedIn is apretty easy place. I'm. And I'm really
responsive and I'm alwayshappy. And I've been able to just
answer questions for folks andpoint them towards good resources
and things and have them askme questions like, is this normal
or is this a thing? And I'mlike, yeah, that is a thing. People
(40:20):
do ask for that. And like,yeah, some developers don't know
if they're doing wind or solarand they might want the rights to
do both. And you're gonna haveto think about both at the same time.
So, yeah, I'm always. I'malways more than happy to connect,
but I will point people tokind of a more official site of the
center of crop America andtheir their AB kind of answer questions
and rel and things like that.But yeah, always here for any questions
(40:41):
that your your community orlisteners have. And I often think
of my best questions 10minutes after I've hung up the phone.
So yeah, me too. Exactly. Great.
Well, Laurie, thank you somuch for sharing all of this information
with us today. It has beenknowledgeable, it has been helpful,
and again, thank you so muchfor your time.
Oh well, I so appreciateKatelyn and I really do feel like
(41:03):
you and your community oflisteners have, yeah, absolutely
insightful questions and thatI'm really glad we were able to share
some resources for so folkscan feel better and more empowered
as they make decisions aboutwhat they're going to do with their
land and how they want to useit going forward.
Absolutely. Thank you.
Thanks so much.
(41:29):
Thanks for listening to theRural Woman Podcast the Rural Woman
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huge thank you to the RuralWoman Podcast team. Audio Editor
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(41:52):
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(42:12):
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(42:35):
share on your social media.Let's strengthen and amplify the
voices of women in agriculturetogether. Until next time my friend.
Keep sharing your story.
Hi, I'm Katelyn Duban and thisis the Rural Woman Podcast. I'm a
first generation farmer whomarried into agriculture. Born and
raised in a city, I was sounfamiliar with where my food came
from, but I was determined tofigure it out. Through my journey
into agriculture, I saw womenwho were strong but humble, often
(01:03):
taking a backseat. To me.These women were leaders who deserved
a seat at the table. I createdthe Rural Women Podcast to share
the voices of women in anindustry whose stories often went
untold. The ruralentrepreneurs who live and breathe
their work full of grit andpride. We come here to share our
(01:27):
stories, to be in communitywith each other, to be challenged
and inspired, but mostimportantly, to be celebrated and
to be heard. We may not alllive farm, ranch or homestead the
same, but we are allconnected. We are rural women and
our stories are worthy ofbeing told. Hey everyone. Welcome
(01:57):
back to this special featuredepisode of the Rural Woman Podcast.
Today you'll meet Laurie Mazer.
Laurie is an experiencedfounder and entrepreneur.
With a 20 year history ofdeveloping solar and wind projects
of every size and scale inevery corner of the U.S. she also
helps her clients to providementorship of their growing teams
(02:18):
and to develop successful windand solar projects in Texas, Oklahoma,
Ohio and many other states.She is the co founder of a mid sized
solar development companyfocused on community sized solar
solar projects where she usesher years of experience to site permit
and ultimately build solarprojects in Pennsylvania. I want
(02:41):
to give a big thank you tothose of you who saw and answered
our call for questions over onthe Rural Woman Podcast social media
pages. Be sure if you're notfollowing on Instagram, Facebook
and threads, you find us overat the Rural Woman Podcast. Without
further ado, let's get to ourconversation today with Laurie Foreign.
(03:08):
Welcome to the Real WomanPodcast. How are you today?
I'm really well Katelyn. Howare you?
I'm doing so well. Thank youso much for joining me. This is a
topic that we're talking abouttoday that I am super interested
in learning more about and itsounds like my listeners are too.
That's great.
I'm excited for the folks whoare unfamiliar with you, Laurie,
(03:32):
give us your background, tellus who you are, what where you're
from and how you got startedin renewable energy.
So I have been doing renewableenergy for the last 20 years. So
on the development side, whichmeans figuring out all the bits and
pieces that need to cometogether to make a project actually
get built. So I've worked onutility scale wind projects, community
(03:54):
scaled solar projects andutility scale solar projects throughout
my career. Yeah. And I livecurrently in Pennsylvania. I used
to live on the west coast andI have traveled, I think, to almost
every state in the US andprobably worked on energy projects
in almost all of them with alot of time spent in the Midwest
like Nebraska and Oklahoma and Texas.
(04:17):
Very cool. What got youstarted in renewable energy?
I think. I don't know ifanyone else felt idealistic and bright
and shiny when they were intheir 20s, but I felt like I really
wanted to do somethingimpactful and, and I had been hearing
a lot about wind energyprojects. This was 2004, so quite
(04:38):
a while ago. And so I had beenhearing a lot about wind energy projects
and offshore wind and wind andsolar projects in Europe. And I interviewed
as kind of just an officemanager at a company that was doing
those projects throughout theUS and in the uk and I got a job
as an office manager. Andprobably one of the luckiest things
(04:59):
is I, I ended up working forsomeone who was deeply devoted to
mentorship. So just someonewho really, I will, I'll give myself
a little credit that I didspend my lunch hour kind of like
on the Danish wind energysite, trying to figure out how people
knew where it was windy versusnot windy, and asking lots of questions.
But I really had someone whotook that curiosity and said, well,
(05:22):
you know, this is enthusiasmand we can harness it. And gave me
a lot of early opportunitiesto travel to Texas and to meet with
landowners and to start reallyunderstanding what it takes to build
a complex energy project.
Very cool. And I love what yousaid about harnessing the energy
of a 20 year old. I wish wecould bottle that and sell it somehow.
(05:42):
Oh my goodness. And like, andreally like also to have that mentorship
wisdom, to put up with a lotof the kind of overly exuberant,
you know, things that go witha 20 year old who's like, wait, what
about this? And they're like,yeah, in due time. But I really,
I didn't ever feel tempered. Ijust felt really supported. And so,
yeah, and also the landownersI met were wonderful farmers who'd
(06:05):
been stewards of their familylands for generations. And so there
was just such a great learningboth ways. Both me learning my career
and then also learning a lotabout agriculture in the US and in
other places.
Yeah, absolutely. I'm justcurious out of a personal note, your
connection with agriculture orrural America, before you started
(06:27):
in this career, what were kindof some of your first memories around?
Food being grown?
Yeah, so I grew up in a prettysmall Town. And I grew up, my best
friend, her dad was, wassomeone who farmed. And like I do
remember hay baling with themas a kid and riding horses on their
farm and being very jealousthat they had a horse. And her dad
just telling me that it wasonly a headache and a giant way,
(06:50):
way to eat through money, thatthat's what horses were good for,
is spending money on. So,yeah, so I grew up in a pretty rural
small town community and justreally saw, I saw a lot of the boredom
that I had as a teenager andthis kind of thirst for understanding
and learning more and thenadditionally to my own career, some
of the opportunities forindependence and sustainability and
(07:16):
kind of community choice inwhat you want and building the environment
in community with your friendsand neighbors that reflects what
you want and your values. Andso that, that does actually fit in
with renewable energy, whichis kind of weird, but it really does.
Energy independence and theidea that we can choose power sources
(07:37):
and how we want to power ourfarms and our schools and things
like that and make decisionsand choices about that.
So Laurie, what defines autility scale renewable energy project
and how does it work?
Yeah, so I'll keep it reallysimple, which is just the idea that
it's really similar to anyother power plant. And I think maybe,
(08:00):
maybe other folks are like, Iwas where I didn't spend a lot of
time thinking about whathappened before I flipped a light
switch. But all throughout ourworld there are power lines, which
I think people are prettyfamiliar with, of different voltages.
And then there are differentpower plants that are fueled by different
things. So a renewable energyutility scale project is a project
that's big. So it's one thatcan serve, you know, hundreds and
(08:22):
thousands of homes with theelectricity. So it's different than
the solar panels on your roofor the homeowner wind turbine in
your backyard that just feedsyour own house. They're large scale
projects that areinterconnected to the high voltage
grid. So they operate just inthe same way the power plant does,
where they send their energyback into the, into the large electrical
(08:44):
grid. And renewable reallyjust means the idea. I think I had
a, I did a career day at aschool last week and one of the kids
said, well, actually the sunis dying, so it's not renewable when
the sun dies. Like it's not. Isaid, okay, within our lifetime and
the next thousand lifetimestimes before the sun dies, we consider
(09:05):
that we don't have to pay forsunshine and that it comes up every
day whether or not we dosomething so we don't have to extract
it from the ground and wedon't have to mine for it or anything
like that. So it's. Renewableresources are things that we think
of usually that have low tozero emissions in their energy production,
that we just use a naturalresource that is already existing
(09:26):
without having to go and getit. So like a coal or a natural gas
being different thanrenewables in that way.
You have to love the thingsthat come out of kids mouths.
Well, sometimes they're like alittle bit smarter than some of the
things that come out ofadults. I was like, yes, sir, you
are right. That is, that is,that is a flaw in my definition.
I agree. So it was reallygood. Out of the mouths of babes,
(09:48):
you know, Right.
The way that you described it,you know, of power poles, like it's
just a different power poleand I've never thought of it that
way. And it's funny because,you know, in agriculture and in rural
settings there can be that,you know, pushback when it comes
to renewable energy. And we'regoing to talk about that a little
bit. But to put it in thesense of do we really protest power
(10:11):
poles? Not often. Right. Sothere's always that different piece
of looking at it. So thank youfor saying that. That was, that was
my light switch moment ofrenewable energy.
Yeah, exactly. It is. It's ourbuilt environment and it's how we
actually power our lives. Butwe don't have to engage with it a
lot. But that is what'sdifferent about doing development
(10:33):
in rural communities is youreally do have to engage with it
and you have to understandwhat, how the impacts will be on
the local community.
Absolutely. So something thatI did before we sat down for our
interview is I asked mycommunity online through the Rural
Women podcast, Facebook groupand Instagram threads even. I asked
everywhere what were yourquestions for Laurie. And we got
(10:56):
quite a few of them and I'mgoing to intertwine them through
our conversation today. Butone of the questions that came up
quite often was how do youchoose where to put this renewable
energy source? Whether it'swind turbines or solar power. How
do you choose whichagricultural land that you are going
(11:19):
to. To put your new projects?
I know, and I think everyonethinks I just choose the one that's
next to their house when theydon't want it. That isn't actually
my rubric and that isn't therubric of it. And there is so much
thought that goes into these,the sighting of these projects and,
and maybe I'll just give atiny piece to like the larger energy
infrastructure. Like where dowe need power? Like that's, that's
(11:41):
definitely a consideration.Like where are utilities? Where is
there not enough generationeither because coal plants are coming
offline or because like Texas,there's so much load growth that
we really just like we'reexperiencing price spikes and outages
and things like that becausethere isn't enough energy. So that's
always in the background. Andthen the kind of more nitty gritty,
which is what I think yourcommunity was talking about, is how
(12:02):
do we pick the place. And Ithink we basically use a lot of mapping
technology to show us wherethere are wetlands, where there are
threatened and endangeredspecies, where there are national
monuments, and we avoid all ofthose places. We try and avoid places
with, you know, nearhistorical sites, things like that,
(12:23):
where they, where a projectwon't be able to kind of fit in with
the community. And thenanother piece is just a kind of what
we talked about of thephysical environment. It needs to
be near transmission lines. Sousually if you're already looking
at power poles, you've gotelectricity moving through your area.
And what we try to do is siteour projects near to those power
poles so we can get our powerto market. Another consideration
(12:45):
that I think is reallyimportant is the willingness like
we, we call people. And that'sa lot of my job is just having those
very awkward firstconversations where I say, like,
hey, your property has areally strong wind resource or really
strong solar resource and isright near our power line and we're
interested in talking to youif this is something that you are
interested in doing and it'ssomething that doesn't cost the landowner
(13:08):
any money. It's not really,it's something where we pay them,
but it is a, it's a 30 yearrelationship. It's a long term lease.
And as we've said, it's notfor nothing. Wind turbines are quite
large, you can't really hidethem. Solar panels, we do a lot around
screening and all that, but itis something that will be their neighbor
for 30 years. So we really tryand explain to them all those pieces.
(13:29):
And we don't have the power ofeminent domains, so we only site
projects where landowners areexcited and willing to host them.
Very interesting. So take methrough the process. I'm a farmer.
I get the phone call fromLaurie saying, hey, have you ever
considered this? What is itlike for a farmer to lease land to
(13:50):
our renewable energy project?
I think it's really, I wasjoking with A. With a rancher the
other day about how we justoperate on a timescale of kind of
waiting and seasons and thatthings seem to go really slow until
all of a sudden, just like aharvest, all of a sudden, everything's
happening at once. And that's,that's a little bit with the development
process is like when alandowner first engages with me,
(14:12):
I usually. And most of thecompanies and good industry practice
is to. If someone's interestedin leasing the land, you send them
a copy of a document that willbe the lease agreement that they
sign, and then you work withthem to help them find local counsel,
like someone who can be theirlawyer. Because you're often negotiating
as a landowner with a largercorporate entity that has, you know,
(14:33):
that has more experience inthis than you do. So I'm always really
cautious and advise landownersthat they should, if they want to
get legal representation, theyshould feel really, really empowered
to do that. So they understandevery bit of this contract that governs
our relationship for the next30 years. And then once we've entered
into an agreement, we haveusually a development time period,
(14:55):
which is when we go out and weget permits. We do studies about
the types of soil, we dostudies about erosion. We design
our power plant, our solarenergy facility, our solar farm or
our wind farm to be ascompatible with the local environment
as we can. And that's. That'sto be good stewards. But additionally,
(15:15):
it's to, like, keep theproject, you know, well maintained.
You don't want erosion andsoils leaving the ground, and you
don't want to cause runoff orthings like that. So we really do
a lot of studies. You doenvironmental studies and you do
land surveys to make sure thatyou know exactly what's out there
and where the propertyboundary lines and everything. And
then you start to design yourproject. And then we also work with
(15:38):
the local utility or with theauthority of the power lines and
talk to them about what needsto happen to be able to put this
project into the grid systemwithout causing any blackouts or
any issues. So they study usand they often tell us what kind
of upgrades, like what we haveto pay for to make the grid more
stable to allow the projectin. Yeah. And so then we're kind
(15:58):
of trucking along and this isusually like, I think the fastest
project I've ever seen waslike 18 months from signing the lease
until wind turbines beingconstructed. And so usually it's
a bit longer, between three tofive years. And then we show the
landowner the design, we workwith them to figure out if everything
is sited in a way that workswith them. We get our local permits
(16:19):
and we get our, any otherfederal permits, we get our permission
to interconnect and then westart construction. And that's like
a six to 12 month period. Andthat's probably, that's what I advise
people. That's when you'rereally going to know we're there.
It's a big major constructionproject and having that day to day
contact with your constructionmanager and then once the project's
(16:39):
operational, there's a lot ofgrass growing, there's some sunlight
shining and there's some windturbines spinning, hopefully, and
they're really not intrusive.If they've been well sited, then
they just become a part of thelandscape and a part of the built
environment that is aroundyou. But that construction period
(16:59):
is probably the most taxingfrom a landowner perspective.
There's just so much that goesinto it that, you know, when we think
of it as a farmer, we think,oh, that's really overwhelming. There's
too many things to do. Butlike you said, you know, it's not
a lot of the farmer doing theactual crossing the T's and dotting
the I's. It's, you know, theyhave agreed to this and now the experts
(17:22):
get to come in and do whatthey do best.
That's totally true. I thinkthe key piece though, that I often,
and that I'm sure you and yourlisteners would feel aligned with
is just that the expertise ofthe local community is huge. Like,
I have learned, I mean,because I'm weird and interested.
I've learned a lot aboutlonghorn cattle, but I've also learned
about the effect of, like,what time. If we start our construction
(17:44):
in the middle of lambingseason, we need to be sure that we've
got a plan in place forrelocating those lambs that are birthing
ewes. You know, we have todecide and like, is that going to
be traumatic? And if there isloss, loss of, of any crops or anything
like that, how are we going tofigure out the damages? And how do
we have that conversation withthe landowner? And I had a Great1
maybe 2 years ago where Icalled someone, I said, hey, Tom,
(18:06):
we're probably going to startconstruction mid September. And he's
like, laurie, you're going tohave to pay all the crop damages.
Could you wait 10 days? Like,if it's September 15th versus September
31st, like, or 30th, like,that's a huge difference. And I was
like, oh, yes. Let us startover here in this corner and then
work our way towards the beansor whatever it was that needed to
(18:26):
be harveste harvested. So Ithink there's, there's a lot that
goes into it. There's a lotin. And it's supposed to be pretty
effortless from the landownerperspective, but there should be
a good amount of learning onthe developer side of really understanding
the person who's been there onthe farm or on the property for so
long and, and incorporatingthat into the design and operation
of the facility.
(18:47):
And what I'm taking from thatand the overall theme is communication
and communicating whatexpectations are from the energy
provider and the farmer. Let'stalk more about how these projects
can coexist with agriculture.You had mentioned livestock and that
(19:07):
was one of the questions thatcame in from one of the listeners
is how can we includelivestock or even other crops growing
within these projects that canreally continue to build the environment
as well as take the energyfrom it?
Yeah. So there's a lot ofopportunity. I think we're at the
(19:30):
beginning. So wind turbinesare a little bit easier because they,
the geographic space they takeup is vertical. Right. So it's like
they're up in the air andreally you can run cattle, you can
plant right up to the corner.I've worked with center pivot irrigation.
You know, you just, you takeout a section of pivot but you're
still able to irrigate yourcrop in the same way and just work
around the wind turbine. Ithink solar panels are a more intensive
(19:53):
use and so I think what you'retalking about with the coexistence
is really important and Ithink what has happened has been
great is there's a ton ofsheep grazing that's already happening.
So much so that there areactually more solar projects wanting
sheep grazing because it'ssuch a win win. It's a very low touch
way to keep grass low enoughso that it doesn't shadow the solar
(20:15):
panels. So it's reallybenefit. You know, we'd have to be
out there with mowing crews,but in fact if we have sheep grazing,
we can do that. And then therehave been some great projects in
Maine with low busblueberries. And I know there are
a couple of pilot projects inColorado with where they're looking
for farmers who are interestedin growing beneath solar panels.
So the idea that you wouldhave these kind of slightly more
(20:39):
elevated. So right now solarpanels probably at their tip height
all the way like this, it'slike eight feet to the ground. So
they're not particularly tall,but if you raise them up, you could
start to really growunderneath them. You need shade tolerant
crops and things like that.But the thing that I need someone
to invent is goats and cowsthat don't mess with the wires. I
(21:02):
mean, cows are out therescratching on their solar panels
and just wreck them. And thegoats, they just eat all the wires.
So chickens are totally fineand sheep are totally fine. But we
have yet to find, maybe wecould raise the panels up high enough
that the cows wouldn't botherthem. But it's been, I think those
are the two challenges is someof the nature of the, of the livestock
(21:23):
out there and what, howcurious they are and kind of strong.
So that's, that's been a challenge.
I can tell you for certain asa woman who owns goats that are currently
outside my office, they willdo anything to ruin it. They will
jump on it, they will eat it, anything.
(21:45):
No. And someone can tell youthat who's an expert on goats. And
then of course, if you're asolar person, you're like, I'm gonna
see what happens. And I'veseen the videos and they're, they're
literally prancing on top ofthe solar panels, not a bother in
the world, chewing on thewires. And it's just, it's dangerous
and it's not good for anyone.So, yeah, we definitely, we need
to either find goats thataren't curious about anything or
(22:06):
we need to figure out a wayto, to make the panels, you know,
withstand the force of a goat.
Absolutely. If anybody canfigure that out, please let us know.
Write us immediately.
Exactly. No, I think it'strue. Well, I will say someone figured
out just, you know, 10 yearsinto MIC or five years ago, like
that bifacial panels that youcould put silicon on both sides of
(22:26):
it and there was enoughbalance back light off of the ground
if the ground wasn't black,that it was worth it to do that.
So I'm really here fortechnology. I'm sure one of your
listeners has a great solutionto my goat problem and to my cow
problem, and I would love tohear it.
Absolutely. If anybody has aproblem, ask a farmer or a rancher,
because I'm sure they canfigure it out. It's MacGyver.
(23:52):
That is very, very true. Idefinitely have experienced that.
So in your 20 plus years ofexperience, what have been, you know,
the biggest pros that you'veseen with renewable energy versus
what have been some of thecons has there been in that 20 years.
Yeah, exactly. And I always,you know, folks, folks can listen
(24:14):
to this and they know that Iwork in this industry and I've worked
in a long time. And there areplaces to go, like there's a Center
for Rural Opportunity andPower that has a website that has
a bunch of information kind ofwith these pros and cons that, that
people can use as a resource.But additionally, yeah, some of the
stuff I've experienced in mycareer is just some of the pros are
in Pennsylvania. Our dairyindustry got really hit hard and
(24:36):
folks had a hard time keepingfamily farms or convincing second
generation, third, fourthgeneration to stick around. So we
were able to install solarpanels on a portion of a dairy farm
and to allow that landowner tohave kind of a steady revenue stream
that he could count on. Soit's like a lease payment that's
always going to come. So itgave some operational security to
(24:58):
him and made it so he didn'thave to sell or figure out another
way to keep his land. So someof the economic benefits, additionally,
you work in a state like Ohio,in the United States, we have a tax
program where the solarprojects and wind projects pay a
different property tax andthat goes directly into the local
school community. So there areways in which these projects kind
(25:19):
of benefit. Additionally, justthe idea of providing learning to
local kids and schoolcommunities and all that about what
renewable energy is, you know,that's, that's an, kind of an incidental
benefit. But a lot of theeconomic benefit and the ability
to keep farms and as we'vementioned before, kind of wind turbines,
their footprint is prettysmall and they don't take up a lot
(25:41):
of area. And so a farmer cankind of continue, a rancher can continue
doing what they've alwaysdone. And then with a solar farm,
like we've said, there can besome grazing opportunity. But additionally
the land isn't a solar farmafter 35 years or 30 years or so.
So there's a removal bondthat's usually placed, that should
be placed on any good projectthat would remove the solar. And
(26:02):
then you think about it thatthe, the soil's had a chance, it's
had about 30 years to rest andit just continues to be owned by
the same people that wholetime. So the next generation can
make a decision about whatthey want to do. Which brings me
to like some of the cons andthe things I always ask people to
really consider is it's a 30year lease, it's a very long time.
(26:23):
So to really think about whatdo you want what view shed is important
to you? Is there a hickorytree or something that was like,
of significance to your familythat you really don't want anyone
to cut, or you don't want tohave the view from a particular homestead
location blocked, or you wouldreally love to improve a farm road
(26:43):
so that you can get access toa back corner that you've not had
access to. So some of thosethings when, when folks haven't felt
empowered or haven't beenasked to speak up by developers,
then you can kind of see someof that relationship deteriorate
and it's not treated as like apartnership for 30 years. So I think
that's a piece that I justalways tell people to really consider
is that this is a, it's a bigcommitment and it's a long term relationship
(27:05):
you're entering into. So doingit for a quick monetary gain is one
portion of it. Butadditionally as a long term stewardship
plan and part of estateplanning or part of like planning
with the next generation.Those are my favorite conversations
when I'm sitting down with twoor three generations and it's kind
of like I've been talking todad and the son comes in or I've
(27:27):
been talking to mom and thedaughter and son come in and they're
like, and then we all get, youknow, and then it becomes real brass
tacks and they ask you a lotof questions. And that I feel like
really gets down to whateverybody wants to do and what's
the priority. And sometimeshaving this additional revenue stream
on a portion of, or the entirefarm can allow families to, to keep
(27:47):
land that's been in theirfamily for a long time around and
in the family. So, yeah, it'sreally important.
I, I think it's, you know, theway that you described it, you know,
you're making this long termcommitment. And I'm thinking to myself,
landowners might not be herein 30 years from today when they
make this decision. Right. Soit is on the next generation, whether
(28:10):
that's a child or a businesspartner or whatever it is. So really
it's, it's a transitionplanning conversation more than it
is a renewable energy conversation.
It is, yeah. And it's like,it's what we're going to be doing
for the, it's a plan aboutwhat's going to happen with the land
and what's the ultimate goalwith the land and how does that align
and how does a renewableenergy project align with the vision
(28:31):
that the family has and thatthe community has. And so I think
it's my job usually tofacilitate and thread that needle.
But I think it's always easierwhen people feel comfortable to speak
up. So I think that that partof doing this work and talking to
you is so that people feelarmed with a little bit more information
so they can kind of ask thosequestions and feel a real sense of
(28:52):
ownership and pride if they dodecide to go forward with a renewable
energy project.
Absolutely. The number onequestion that my listeners asked
was the decommissioningprocess. What happens after that
20, 30 year contract is doneand or anything in between that happens?
(29:13):
What is the responsibility ofthe farmer in that? And what can
landowners expect?
I think it's critical. I mean,like we just said, you're thinking
about this in the long term.And I don't, I don't think anyone
is more cognizant of the rapidways in which things can suddenly
change than folks who are asconnected to the land as farmers
(29:35):
and ranchers are. So the ideathat I always tell people is I really
hope this doesn't happen, butlet's plan for what if. So what if
something happens like atornado comes through or something,
Some part of the facility is.So there will. The facilities are
built in such a way that theycan withstand kind of all the local
(29:55):
weather systems that comethrough. But additionally, within
your lease docum, and thensometimes at the local county or
township or state level,there's a requirement to post a security
bond. So the idea is thatdecommissioning cost will exist and
will live in a bond or anescrow account or a letter of credit,
(30:15):
whether or not the developeris still there. I think I saw that
maybe some of your listenerstalked about the fact that these
projects get sold, and that isreally true. They're assets. And
making a deal with LaurieMazer is making. You're making a
deal with a larger entity andthe lease is going to be the document
that governs it. Not, youknow, I'll always pick up the phone,
(30:36):
I guess, to my landowners andto anyone I've developed a relationship
with. But I might not liveforever. So I think folks need to
make sure their leaseprovisions require a bond to be posted.
We usually say in like year 5or year 10 or so when the facility's
been up and running and madeits money back. And there is. There's
maybe a little more risk thatsomeone wouldn't do as good a job
(30:56):
maintaining it because they'vekind of made their initial investment
back. And so we reallyencourage people to push for some
sort of security anddecommissioning bond that will allow
anyone, not just thedeveloper, to come in and remove
the facility. And then. Yeah,I mean, and then what is that? It's
the foundations and some ofthe underground cabling or wires
that are used to connect thesolar panels. Those are usually above
(31:19):
ground and except where we'reconnecting big chunks of arrays or
the wind turbines connectingtogether. So you're removing the
solar panels are really just astake that's driven into a steel
pile that's driven into theground, you know, about 10ft. And
so that can get pulled out.And then the foundations of the wind
turbines get either left andcovered over with topsoil, if that's
(31:41):
what the Leonardo wants, orthey can get demoed.
See, there is an answer to allof these questions. You just have
to find the right person to ask.
I know. I'm so glad. I'm soglad to that person because these
are things I wonder about too.Like what happened. You know, you
look around, you're like, whatis going to happen with that when
it's. When there no one wantsto use it anymore? Like what happens
to shopping malls when no onegoes there anymore. I think we've
(32:02):
all seen that. So.
Exactly. They have that bigfour lease sign sit on them for years
and years to come. I want totalk about how renewable energy projects
really benefit localcommunities. What are some of the
benefits that you've seen overthe last 20 years working on these
(32:22):
projects?
Yeah, so some of the, morelike nerdy ones are the ideas that
we actually upgrade theutility lines around us and can kind
of build. Sometimes whenyou're in a rural community, you're
kind of at the end of atransmission line or you're midway.
And if there's a cut or abreak or a problem in the line, you
can be blacked out for apretty long time. So what we do is
(32:43):
when we plug our projects in,they provide power closer to these
local communities. And thenadditionally, we also pay for the
upgrades to the utilitysystem, some of which are related
to our facility and some ofwhich are just required for safe
operations. So we kind of canbuild in some resiliency, maybe upgrade
some power lines, put them onmore stable poles and things like
(33:05):
that. But probably the mostimpactful from a local community
perspective is the tax base.There can be a real strong tax base
that's provided where it cango into. It can either be taxed kind
of in the millage rates thatare already set. So a certain percentage
goes to police, schools, fire,all that or projects can be used
to kind of increase theoverall general fund. And I've seen
(33:28):
projects that have paid forteachers or school buses, fire departments,
additional staff, things likethat. So there's, there's a lot of,
a lot of that. And then, andthen the other piece that we've already
spent a lot of time on, whichis just, just allowing local landowners
to maintain and retain theownership of property that's been
in their family for a longtime with a diversified income stream,
(33:50):
when they've hit a bump orthey anticipate there might be a
bump. So, yeah, I thinkthere's a lot of, A lot of, A lot
of ideas around stability andindependence that really tie in with
renewable energy projects.
We talk about there being thatadditional income for your farm.
What does it do for propertyvalue for your farm?
(34:11):
So this is, these are all thenitty gritty details, Katelyn. It's
like, you know what landownersask ahead of time because really,
right. If I'm putting $100million of equipment on your property,
why should you pay the taxbill? So another key term in your
lease is that any increase inyour property taxes should be borne
by the developer of theproject and the owner of that equipment.
(34:31):
And any good developer willwork to really make sure that if
it's not a subdivision, atleast the local taxing authority
knows how to reach, how to taxtheir solar equipment and work in
an agreement with them and gettax payments from them and that the
agricultural land will remainthere. And then we additionally have,
we always check to see ifthere's CRP or clean and green payments
(34:54):
that are being made to alandowner where there's a rollback
penalty. And that is alsosomething that if by installing a
renewable energy project onyour land, it causes a rollback tax
event for the landowner, thatthat should also be. So there really
shouldn't be any taxdifference. And that should all be
borne by the developer who'schoosing to put this on their project.
(35:16):
The landowner should, shouldbe receiving checks and should, you
know, they'll be dealing witha nuisance of construction, but then
they should be just hopefullyenjoying the revenue and kind of
continued use of theirproperty that either doesn't have
solar panels or is leased tothe, to the wind farm.
So if you are a landowner or afarmer that is listening right now
(35:39):
and wants to get started onthis process or learn more, what
are some good resources? Whocan we turn to?
Yeah, I think some greatplaces, at least in the U.S. the
USDA and a number and the U.S.department of Energy have had a lot
of, of resources in the pastabout renewable energy. And there's
(35:59):
nrel, the National RenewableEnergy Labs in Colorado has a lot
of just excellent studieswhere like the questions around property
tax, the questions aroundscreening, what are best practices,
some of those questions sothat a landowner can come in kind
of armed with their own. Andthen as I mentioned before, there's
the center for RuralOpportunity and Power Crop, which
(36:20):
has its own website. And thoseguys do a good job of trying to present
the pluses and the minuses.And I think once you know the pluses
and the minuses, you can startto really form your questions and
understand like okay. Like,yeah, okay, yeah, someone mentioned
that. Let me ask you a littlebit more. So when are you planning
to post that decommissioningbond? I didn't see it in this lease
(36:42):
agreement. Or what do I haveto do with regard to the permits?
Like do I have to, you know,how is this going to impact me and
my own taxes or things likethat. So I think there are a lot
of good resources that are outthere and I think any developer worth
their salt should want to meetwith you multiple times, should want
to answer all your questionsand should want you to have legal
(37:04):
representation to really helpadvocate for you. Because these are
really complicated, like 30and 40 page lease documents that
we said are going to be ineffect for a really long time. So
not feeling rushed orpressured would be really key components
for me if I was, if I was onthe receiving end of my own phone
call. I would want someone whowas patient and took a lot of time
(37:26):
to explain all the things.
Absolutely. One more plug forcrop America. The YouTube channel
is great. There are so manyfarmer producer stories on there
of people's experience withthese projects that have come up.
So definitely check that out.I will put all of those links in
the show notes for people tofind more information and get the
(37:48):
resources and to get theirquestions answered and honestly find
out more questions that theydidn't know to ask.
Exactly. No. And you're soright about those farmer interviews.
There's nothing better thanseeing someone and those no one out
there is sugarcoating it orsaying things they don't believe.
You know, when they're talkingabout the real, the real impacts
to them and the pluses and theminuses. And I think that's a, that's
(38:10):
a great idea. It's anothergreat resource. It's just listening
to some of those folks talkabout their own experience.
Absolutely. Laurie, what areyour hopes for the future? When it
comes to renewable energy.
Oh, I mean, I think it's beenreally fun to do things like career
day and teach my kids aboutit. But additionally, I really love
my job because I get to go outand talk to people about having a
(38:34):
diverse energy mix, that thereis this opportunity to have some
homegrown solar and windenergy resources that power the country,
power our communities, and allof the needs that we have. You know,
these growing electrical needsthat we have and the ability to serve
those without putting anypollutants into the air and without
(38:54):
kind of contaminating anystreams or anything like that. And
so I'm not one of those peoplewho would say that we can power the
entire world with justrenewable resources. I think we need
to have a pretty good mix ofpower out there. But I do think I've
just seen in my own career,like, kind of exponential growth
and the number of theseprojects to really increase. And
so I'm excited because aseverybody knows, the longer you do
(39:17):
something, the better you getat it. So I really do think we're
going to be hitting kind of aplace where the technology is performing
top notch. And additionally,we've been able to mitigate or incorporate
things like agrivoltaics andfigure out that goat problem you
and I were talking about andget some of these things that have
been issues for the. Forrenewable energy projects solved.
(39:38):
I really have a lot of faithin the creativity and ingenuity of
communities working on theseprojects. So, yeah, I'm really excited
for the future.
Very cool. Well, Laurie, wewill put all of the links that we
mentioned in the show notesabout Crop America for the listeners
who would like to connect withyou and for what you do. Where can
they find you online?
(39:59):
Yeah, so people always find meonline and it's fine to find just
my profile on LinkedIn is apretty easy place. I'm. And I'm really
responsive and I'm alwayshappy. And I've been able to just
answer questions for folks andpoint them towards good resources
and things and have them askme questions like, is this normal
or is this a thing? And I'mlike, yeah, that is a thing. People
(40:20):
do ask for that. And like,yeah, some developers don't know
if they're doing wind or solarand they might want the rights to
do both. And you're gonna haveto think about both at the same time.
So, yeah, I'm always. I'malways more than happy to connect,
but I will point people tokind of a more official site of the
center of crop America andtheir their AB kind of answer questions
and rel and things like that.But yeah, always here for any questions
(40:41):
that your your community orlisteners have. And I often think
of my best questions 10minutes after I've hung up the phone.
So yeah, me too. Exactly. Great.
Well, Laurie, thank you somuch for sharing all of this information
with us today. It has beenknowledgeable, it has been helpful,
and again, thank you so muchfor your time.
Oh well, I so appreciateKatelyn and I really do feel like
(41:03):
you and your community oflisteners have, yeah, absolutely
insightful questions and thatI'm really glad we were able to share
some resources for so folkscan feel better and more empowered
as they make decisions aboutwhat they're going to do with their
land and how they want to useit going forward.
Absolutely. Thank you.
Thanks so much.
(41:29):
Thanks for listening to theRural Woman Podcast the Rural Woman
Podcast is more than just justa podcast. We are a community. A
huge thank you to the RuralWoman Podcast team. Audio Editor
Max Hofer. A special thanks toour Patreon Executive producers Sarah
Riedner from Happiness by theAcre and Carrie Munven from Blaestone
(41:52):
Farms. To learn how you canbecome a Patreon Executive Producer
or other ways to financiallysupport the show, head on over to
wildrosefarmer.com to learnmore. Be sure to hit the Follow or
Subscribe button wherever youlisten to the podcast to get the
latest episodes directly onyour playlist. And if you are loving
(42:12):
the show, please be sure toleave a rating and review on Apple
Podcasts or any other platformthat accepts ratings and reviews.
You can connect with us onsocial media at the Whirlwoman Podcast
and with me, ildrosefarmer.One of the best ways you can support
the show is by sharing it.Send this episode to a friend or
(42:35):
share on your social media.Let's strengthen and amplify the
voices of women in agriculturetogether. Until next time my friend.
Keep sharing your story.
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