April 11, 2025 • 45 mins
On this week's episode of The Rural Woman Podcast™, you'll meet Patti Durand.
A 27 year PAg, with a background in entrepreneurship and finance, Patti has guided hundreds of Canadian farm business families to confidently navigate the paths of transition decision making. As a dynamic speaker and workshop leader, Patti aims to provide relatable, actionable ideas to help business families move ahead, together and with certainty. Her positivity, practical experience and strategic brain means Patti can help "move a lot of dirt" quickly toward impactful results to achieve farm business goals. She has recently authored, "The Future Leader - The Successor's Guide to Family Business Leadership".
For full show notes, including links mentioned in the show, head over to wildrosefarmer.com/217
. . .
DISCUSSIONS THIS WEEK:
[05:33] The Importance of Succession Planning in Agriculture
[11:13] Bright Track Consulting: A New Approach to Succession
[17:32] Preliminary Steps for Effective Succession Planning
[20:30] The Role of a Neutral Third Party in Family Conversations
[23:24] Success Stories in Succession Planning
[26:39] The Future Leader: Patti's New Book
[32:28] Encouragement for Successors in Family Businesses
[35:28] Patti's Vision for the Future of Family Business Leadership
. . .
This week's episode is brought to you by Patti Durand
. . .
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. . .
Meet the Team
Audio Editor | MixBär.
Patreon Executive Producers
Sarah R. | Happiness by The Acre
. ....
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:36):
Hi, I'm Katelyn Duban and thisis the Rural Woman Podcast. I'm a
first generation farmer whomarried into agriculture. Born and
raised in a city, I was sounfamiliar with where my food came
from, but I was determined tofigure it out. Through my journey
into agriculture, I saw womenwho were strong but humble, often
(00:59):
taking a backseat.
To me.
These women were leaders whodeserved a seat at the table. I created
the Rural Women Podcast toshare the voices of women in an industry
whose stories often wentuntold. The rural entrepreneurs who
live and breathe their workfull of grit and pride. We come here
(01:21):
to share our stories, to be incommunity with each other, to be
challenged and inspired, butmost importantly, to be celebrated
and to be heard. We may notall live farm, ranch or homestead
the same, but we are allconnected. We are rural women and
(01:42):
our stories are worthy ofbeing told. Hey everyone.
Welcome back to anotherepisode of the Rural Woman Podcast.
Today you'll meet PattiDurand, a 27 year professional agrologist
with a background inentrepreneurship and finance. Patti
(02:04):
has guided hundreds ofCanadian farm business families to
competently navigate the pathsof transition decision making. As
a dynamic speaker and workshopleader, Patti aims to provide relatable,
actionable ideas to helpbusiness families move ahead together
and with certainty. Herpositivity, practical experience
(02:25):
and strategic brain meansPattie can help move a lot of dirt
quickly towards impactfulresults to.
Achieve farm business goals.
Patti has recently authoredthe Future the Successor's Guide
to Family Business Leadership.Friends, I am so excited for you
to meet my friend Patti Durandtoday on the podcast. I recently
(02:46):
had the opportunity to attenda conference with Patti and it was
an absolute delight to be ableto spend so much time with her and
I am so excited to share herwith you today. Before we get to
Patti's interview, we have alistener review. Friends, I don't
know the last time I got toread one of these on the air, but
(03:09):
I'm so excited to do so. Thislistener review comes from Madeline
Parantis. She left this overon the Rural Women Podcast fake Facebook
page. This podcast is a bingeworthy pastime if you are needing
some company during morningchores or something to pass the time
during a grain run drive.These stories are for you. So many
(03:31):
relatable and knowledgeablewomen get to share their daily lives
with us all and it's a joy toget to listen.
I have learned so much about other.
Types of agriculture outsidemy bubble of livestock and for sure
got misty a time or twolistening to some heartfelt sentiments.
I am a true fan and willcontinue to make listening a part
of my daily routine. Well,thank you so much, Madeline for your
(03:56):
kind review over on ourFacebook page. And friends, if you
haven't left a review on anyof the platforms or a number of the
platforms that there are toleave ratings and review out there,
I would truly appreciate it.Apple, you can leave a rating and
review Spotify. You're able torate with stars. And I believe there's
(04:17):
comment sections on Spotifytoo. So if there is a aha moment
or a misty moment for you, Iwould love to hear that your feedback
helps shape the show and wesure do appreciate it here. Without
further ado, my friends, let'sget to this week's episode with Patti.
(04:40):
Patti, welcome to the RuralWoman Podcast. How are you today?
I am happy to be here.
I am also happy you are hereand I feel like I am sitting with
a friend and we are about tohave just a great conversation about
all things Patti andsuccession planning and your new
book and all of the thingsbefore. I fangirl too much over you,
(05:03):
Patti. Tell everyone listeningwho you are, where you're from, and
what your connection toagriculture is.
Ooh, that's a big request. SoPatti Duran is my name. I am from
Humboldt, Saskatchewan, whichhas been home for 27 years. Originally
from a hog and seed farm northof Winnipeg, community called Two
Line Manitoba. The connectionto agriculture, boy it is. It's a
(05:28):
long list. So my husband and Iboth grew up in farms. We both have
our degrees and he has hismaster's in agriculture. We have
been consulting with farmers,but we haven't actively farmed ourselves
for our entire career. And formyself I've had the privilege of
working with hundreds ofCanadian farm families and I can't
(05:50):
tell you specifically what'saround the corner, but I am so optimistic
about the possibilities.
Amazing. Well, you started outon a farm, so tell us about the family
farm growing up.
So like I said, hog and seedoperation, not a big farm like when
we There was 1/4, I guess 2/4owned and one rented, but it was
(06:11):
a value add of the seedbusiness. Also had some cows and
chickens. It was very mixedfarm and big garden, all of those
things and like a 30 sow barnwhich in the 80s was very suitable
and appropriate. My dad had agenetic lung disease and so had chronic
health issues thatprecipitated some pretty significant
(06:33):
changes required andunfortunately he passed away in March
of 92 when I was 16 and so myjourney in agriculture is something
that he didn't get to Witness.And my gosh, I wish I could have
shared it with him. But mytime talking to my mom in particular,
(06:54):
I've often said that shetaught me how to do what I do for
a living because they had aplan and they had conversations about
what the future looked likeand what would happen if something
happened to him. And we hadthe privilege of focusing on grieving
and not whether we could payfor groceries or not. And so then
(07:16):
going into my degree, what Ialready knew to be true about how
much I loved about ruralCanada just was reinforced. And it
was the beginning of a great story.
So let's dive in more to thatstory and that career that you have
built for yourself inagriculture. What have you been doing
since you graduateduniversity? Patti? Just a few years
(07:38):
ago.
Well, and, you know, Idefinitely. And you and I have spoken
about as entrepreneurs, thejourney can be convoluted. And at
some time sometimes in theworld, there's the perception of,
oh, well, you can't reallykeep a job, can you? Like, you're
not very focused. But instead,what I've come to appreciate as I've
(07:59):
matured, as I. As I've grown,is that I'm a project kid. I tend
to move into things, figurethem out, master them and move on.
And that is a skill set. Andso what it equipped my husband and
I to do was build businessesthat allowed us to be home with our
two daughters who were born inthe early 2000s. They're both at
(08:21):
university now. And so I'vetold clients, I've told friends,
I'm like, I can't tell youwhat our next business will be because
I haven't seen it yet. I seehorizon. I tend to look out and anticipate
what's coming. And sometimesI'm more correct than others. But
the path. I started workingfor a herbicide company straight
(08:42):
out of university. Greatexperience with Cyanamid and MBASF.
Then my maternity business. Webought a Mr. Sub franchise, which
we ran for nine years. Myhusband has an agronomic consulting
company. Feel good,Agronomics, which is in its 22nd,
23rd year. And once our girlswere kind of of an age that it made
(09:04):
sense, I went back tocorporate work and worked for Scotiabank.
And little did I know thatthat was filling out my knowledge
from a financial perspective.I'd had marketing background. I'd
been in the boots of anentrepreneur for a long time. We
built things from scratch. Webuilt relationships, systems, understanding
all of those things. Butunderstanding credit and finance
(09:27):
was the final piece before Ipresented at a conference and was
seen by the individual who washiring at Farm Credit Canada for
their agriculture transitionspecialist role, which was a pilot
role in 2018. At first in thatparticular situation, I was not clear
(09:48):
that I was the right personfor that role. But once I understood
that effectively it wasbuilding a business from within,
I realized like, oh yeah, I'mthe right person. And what an incredible
experience.
I love how you framed this ofessentially having such a well rounded
bit of knowledge when it comesto, you know, building up the business
(10:10):
and then the financial piecebeing really something that well
rounded it out. And how oftenis it that people with that entrepreneurial
mindset of getting into newopportunities or being offered new
opportunities and being like,well, I don't think I'm the right
fit for that because I, youknow, I'm not a farmer or I'm not
(10:31):
an xyz. But knowing thatessentially farm business is a business
and it's, you know, you justget to drive a tractor and have fun
running that business versus,you know, whatever else happens.
Like in a family business,like, so having all of that knowledge
and information and havingthat farming background and like
(10:53):
you said, growing up on thefamily farm and experiencing what
you did with the loss of yourdad and having those plans already,
you've already lived throughfarm succession. So what a perfect
fit and opportunity for you.And you know, I know Patti Durant,
through your time at FCC andthe amazing presentations and the
knowledge and information thatyou were able to share and since
(11:15):
moving on from fcc, stillbeing able to do that and give farmers
and farm families theknowledge and the tools to have these
difficult conversations whenit comes to succession planning.
So tell us more about kind ofwhat your current journey is in your
entrepreneurial journey thatyou've been on.
(11:37):
Thanks. Yeah, I, it's good toreflect. I appreciate it. What I
came to realize is that in mytime working with, with farm families
in succession discussions andthey were asking for help, but there
was not necessarily a commonbond other than they farmed in Canada.
So there was large, there wassmall, there was wealthy, there was
(11:58):
high debt, there was young,there was old, there was small families,
big families, quite rural,pretty close to urban, all of these
common things. But there wasuniversal patterns emerging. And
as I was absorbing this anddigesting it and honestly studying
psychology, like I wasabsorbing as much as I could. I'm
(12:18):
like, why do people respondthat way? Why do they hurt each other
like that? Why is it, whyaren't they having these conversations?
What is going on? I developeda sense that as meaningful as it
is to sit with one family, itfeels hopeless when you consider
the tens of thousands ofCanadian farm families in Canada.
(12:39):
And so how might we help morepeople faster? And so taking that
knowledge and saying, okay,you know what? I see a greater need
that I personally am reallydrawn to and I'm going to go and
do that. The most recentcompany, Bright Track Consulting,
was born. Bright Track comesfrom the message that people tell
(13:00):
me that I help to shine alight on the path in the coaching
and conversations and feedbackand listening that I do with them.
I open doors and I plantseeds. I'm not saying you have to
do this. I'm not saying thisis the way. I'm trying to help them
open their mind to whatpossibilities exist. And so Bright
(13:22):
Track Consulting, my long termvision, where I'm aiming, everything
I do is aiming towards afuture in which Canadian business
families are looked to as theexample of communication excellence.
Which sounds ridiculousbecause ultimately I would say we're
kind of the butt of the joke.Family communication. Yeah, right.
I know these people. They aresmart, they are caring, they are
(13:45):
intelligent, and they arequick to adopt good things. And so
I have faith that this ispossible. And so every initiative,
every action I'm taking isleading in that direction. And the
book is really kind of thefirst, biggest piece of that puzzle
that I believe is missing andcould really help.
(14:05):
I love that. And I love thatyou knew within yourself that you
could be doing more and youcould be helping more people. And
being called to do that tellsme who you are as a person. But I
want to dive into kind of thelogistics of succession and succession
(14:26):
planning. And I know at BrightTrack you are helping more than just
farm families. You arehelping, like you said, Canadian
business owners be effectivecommunicators. And what better family
business or businesses ingeneral than to help than farmers?
So I want to talk aboutsuccession planning within farm families.
(14:50):
And I know there are a lot offolks listening who maybe are hesitant
to have these conversationsnot only around their kitchen table,
but they're hesitant to evenhave them with their partners. Talk
to me about starting theseconversations. How do people start
(15:11):
the conversation aboutsuccession planning?
So, I mean, the answers variedgreatly and. But one of the patterns
that I've witnessed and that Iwould draw attention to is I feel
like there's been a lot ofadvice around this in succession
and investment in resourcesfor decades and yet the statistics
(15:33):
aren't getting better. Sosomething's wrong. And one of the
things that I feel is amiss isthat in advising and in the recommendations
for firm families, you have tohave this conversation and talk to
them about this or talk tothem about this. And what it does
is that it assumes that thepeople have the actual language of
(15:54):
how to do that. So my questionis not about their intelligence.
These are smart people.They've just never done this before.
And so one piece of thepuzzle, and that's what I certainly
attempt to do inpresentations, in workshops, in the
resources I'm building, isaround, how might you say that? How
(16:15):
would you phrase that? Andliterally some scripts that people
can build upon around, okay,if you had to have a question about
wills and estates or about ifyou're concerned about someone's
mental health, or if you hadto introduce the possibility of a
prenuptial agreement, theseare all things that people, they
hear them and they canliterally feel it physically, like
(16:35):
it tightens their chest.Understandably, these are sensitive
and there's risk involved inthe conversation, but that's not
a good enough reason to nothave it. But it's also okay to say,
I don't know how to have thisconversation. So we can, as advisors,
we can kind of wag our fingerand say, do better. But I actually
believe that we are failing toequip. And that's one of the gaps
(17:00):
and why conversations don'tstart in the first place. It's also
where having a third partyfacilitator to be a catalyst to create
a safe space to start theconversation can really take time
off the process. For somefamilies, that's a really important
ingredient.
I think the language piece isso important and I think the language
(17:22):
which we use can really makeor break that conversation to like
get right out of the gate andsay something that is going to offend
your father in law or youknow, make the millennial farmer
have hurt feelings about thework or whatever they've provided.
(17:42):
You had mentioned a lot oftimes when we're having these conversations,
and I'm guessing it's not.It's the lack of language, of knowing
what to say or how to say it,the hurt feelings that come along
with it. And recovering fromthose conversations, I think takes
more time than learning thecorrect language to start these conversations
(18:06):
completely.
One thing that I, I personallypractice, and I will recommend it
consistently is if you haveany hesitation about having a conversation,
and I will call it important.Some people call it difficult, some
people call it hard. I'msaying it's an important conversation.
Take the time and makeyourself a script in a Safe place.
Write out what it is you'retrying to say and work it through
(18:28):
until you can find thoseperfect words. And sometimes you
can bring it to anotherfriend, like a trusted friend and
say, hey, can you have a lookat this? How does this sound? Can
you poke holes in this idea?Because even for myself, if I know
that it's an importantconversation and I'm anxious about
saying it incorrectly, forgoodness sake, I'm a professional
speaker, I will write myself ascript and I will hold it up and
(18:49):
I'll say, caitlin, I havesomething important to say and I'm
really concerned about sayingit incorrectly. So I'm actually going
to read it to you so I can bekind and gentle and I will read it
out. Because our brains arenot our friend when we are in that
state, there's sticks that aregoing to get thrown in the spokes
unintentionally and this istoo precious to not care for it properly.
(19:12):
Absolutely. And you know, wehad mentioned it's smart people having
these conversations and thereis absolutely no shame in writing
out what you're going to say,figuring out what it is that's important
to you so you don't miss itbecause it is anxiety inducing. And
when you're in fight or flightmode, your brain is not working up
(19:36):
top, in tip top shape. So ofcourse there's the opportunity to
say something wrong or to missa point that you wanted to make.
Talk to me about, you know,once we have the language or once
we feel confident in themessaging moving forward that we
want to have these successionconversations, what are some of just
(20:01):
the basic preliminary stepsthat farm families should be looking
at when it comes to planningfor succession? And we can do this
for each generation. What arethe plans for the current older generation
and what are the plans for theupcoming generation?
It's a big question. And Iwill say that I, I don't think there's
(20:22):
a one way, and I repeat thatoften people are looking for the
way. How, you know, how are wegonna do this? And like, there is
no one way, but there is oneway that will be most perfect for
you or the best optionavailable. But something that I have
witnessed is that specificallyin our industry, in our culture of
agriculture, it is notperceived as a safe place to express
(20:44):
your needs. It's perceived asselfish, it's perceived as greedy,
and you don't want to comeacross like that. But ultimately,
succession is a needsanalysis. What do you need? What
do you need? What do you need?Can the farm business handle it?
And so if every person cantake responsibility for what I need
(21:05):
is certainty for the future,here's my cost of living. So here's
some income needs andspecifications, and I've done some
of the math and I have a goodset of that. I'm hoping that I'll
own a home at some point orsome land, some livestock, whatever
that might look like. So fillin those blanks and really paint
the clearest picture youpossibly can of what the desired
(21:26):
outcome will look like andwhat role clarity you might need.
And this goes for everygeneration, right? So it's not necessarily
about the senior generationexiting, but how will their role
change? What involvement wouldthey love to continue to have, if
that's their choice or ifthat's their preference? If you can
express what your needs areand bring that to the table, that's
(21:47):
what allows you to say, oh,okay, like, let's look at the math.
The possibilities of thisentity, of this enterprise, can it
meet these needs? Sometimes itcan't. And so you need to kind of
rejig and address it. But theability for each person to take responsibility
for clearly stating what theirhopes and dreams are specifically
in their needs for the futureis deeply powerful and will lay out
(22:11):
a path like nothing else will.
And even me hearing that, andit's so black and white. And when
you're thinking about it andwhen you are imagining this conversation,
nine times out of 10, it'sprobably not black and white in your
head. There's those emotionsmixed into it, right? But at the
end of the day, it's black andwhite. It's numbers on a piece of
(22:34):
paper. It's saying that thisis my cost of living, this is what
I need out of an operation tocontinue my lifestyle after retirement
on a farm, right? It doesn'tseem so hard, but when there's those
emotions in there, that's whenthe big feelings and potentially
(22:58):
the hurt feelings can come outof it, right?
And just the. The guilt ofexpressing your personal wants, there's
something there that is. Thepeople tend to withhold and in fact,
they deny it all the time.They don't even think it, never mind
speak it. It's not everyfamily, but it is a common enough
bond that I feel it's worthtalking about once people have that
(23:20):
sense. And I hesitate to sayblack and white because, I mean,
everything's gray. But to thebest of our ability here and based
on what we know right now, notbeing able to tell it, read the future,
say, this is what I hope for.Can you State that. Can you clearly
paint that picture so otherpeople can adopt and think about
(23:41):
what it is that's important toyou? That's it's a robust conversation
and it can be hard to getthere. But my gosh, it's so freeing
once it's clear because thenyou can all pull in the same direction.
Talk to us about the benefitsof having a neutral third party in
those conversations.
I really appreciate a quotefrom Elizabeth Gilbert, who is the
(24:02):
author of Eat Pray Love. Andthe quote is, our family knows how
to push our buttons becausethey installed them. And that's why
we can't not trip on some ofour family habits, history, baggage
preferences, assumptions,stories. And even when we're working
(24:24):
really, really hard to bedisciplined, to be performing or
speaking in a businesslikeway, we're gonna get triggered. There's
those little things. And sohaving a third party can kind of
set a tone of expectationamongst everybody and everybody's
behavior tends to tighten up alittle bit. And in a more respectful
way, I would say a goodfacilitator will also have some specific
(24:47):
rules of engagement in termsof this is undivided focus. We're
turning off the phones, we'returning off our watches, there's
no laptops, there's no iPads.We need to give undivided focus for
this to be really effective.They will make sure everybody has
a voice at the table. So itcreates balance where there might
be imbalance otherwise, youknow, the talkers and the not talkers,
that type of thing. Anotherbeautiful thing is that they don't
(25:11):
know what they don't know. Sothey can ask questions that are very
difficult for in familymembers to ask. So I'll give an example.
Like in a family, they'll say,well, you know what I mean? And as
a facilitator, I'll say, Iactually don't know what you mean.
Say more. So the kind ofshortcuts that happen in conversation,
that's actually the nuggets.That's where you peel back some layers
(25:32):
and go, wait a minute, thisactually isn't clear or consistent
or known across the board. Wedon't have a level understanding
here. And so that can bereally powerful and fun. Like the
moments in those rooms whenpeople are like really like things
that they learn about theirfamily members in those moments.
(25:54):
It's pretty powerful.
Well, and like you had said,like, expressing your wants and needs
is not something I feel like alot of us do on a day to day basis
anyways. And like you said,when you're with your farming family,
and you're with them everyday, and you're working every day,
and you think you're workingtowards the same goal, but sometimes
(26:15):
I'm sure it comes out in thoseconversations that you're not even
speaking the same language.And just to have that clarification
around what your wants, needsand expectations are, what a gift
to have.
(27:39):
Yeah. And it can be acatalyst. It can be something that
everything else can be builtupon. It's like, it's my goal, actually,
when I'm in thoseconversations, is that this will
be a touchstone conversationthat people will think back to as,
like, that moment. Not to beso grandiose, but rather. Okay, this
is when we kind of circled thewagons and really began from a place
(28:02):
of understanding.
I have a question for you, andthis is a really broad question because
you've worked with hundredsand hundreds of farm families and
families across Canada. As afarmer myself, and as a person who
gets to connect with a lot ofamazing farmers through the podcast
or through conferences, Ithink it's often that we hear the
(28:22):
horror stories when it comesto succession planning and the lack
of planning and all of thethings. But I want to flip that around
because we've all heard enoughhorror stories. Talk to me about
some of the biggest wins thatyou have seen with your clients throughout
the years.
I love your comments abouthorror stories. I. For whatever reason,
(28:43):
I'm just going to make a quickcomment on this. I actually have
a. It's kind of a bone to pickfrom an advisory perspective in an
effort to monetize servicesand sell them. It uses fear as a
motivator. Fear is a crappymotivator. It doesn't work. It actually
results in paralysis. And thiswork, no matter how fluffy it might
(29:03):
sound, you have to begin withhope. It is a critical success factor
in my mind. And so I willstart with families again. Nobody
cares about this like you do.You are intelligent. You have figured
things out before. You have todo this. How might I support you
and not have to, as in, onlyyou can do this. This is yours. Having
(29:25):
that vote of confidence issomething that I think we can all
do and encourage each other inthe industry and say, you can do
this. You've done freakinghard things before. Like, give me
the list, let's go. So there'sthat. The stories. Oh, gosh, Patti.
We incorporated, like, oh, mygosh. Really? Like, holy cow, this
(29:48):
actually happened. So that'slike just one little example. Or
the dad that came up to memonths later and he's like, Patti,
like, that conversationchanged the way we're treating each
other, or we're talking toeach other differently now. And not
to say that it's me that'sdoing it, but they recognize that
it was a shift of the way theywere looking at things and that they
(30:10):
grew in awareness of what wastheirs and that it was their responsibility
to take action. I've also hadfamilies where they said, you know
what, we actually realize nowthat this is, we need to stop trying.
Like, it's time for us to partways. That's not a fail. Like, if
that provides relief andpermission to stop trying something
(30:33):
that's really not working,like, that's okay too. Even awareness
of their position, becausesome businesses are in a tough spot
and for them to have a safeplace to say, yeah, this isn't working,
I would call that a win aswell. Largely, though, I feel like
a lot of the clients I'veworked with in recent years, it almost
(30:55):
like I send them off likeships into the night, and I'm really
hopeful for them. But Icontinue to have little bits of feedback
and threads that tell me thatthey're figuring it out. And I know
they can.
And I think that piece for youhas to make. Those are the feel good
moments when you've given themjust a way, a path, a light to the
(31:20):
path of which way to go. Andlike you've said, you know, we're,
we're smart people, weunderstand business, we understand
finances, we understand thesethings. It's just the family piece
that sometimes can make it alittle bit more complicated. But
I honestly think sharing thesuccess stories is more important
(31:42):
than sharing, like we said,the stories that we've all heard
time and time again. Becauseit is paralyzing. It is a way to
make us stop in our tracks andover analyze absolutely everything
instead of just having theconversation that's black, white,
and a little gray in between.
Yeah. And it's, I would say,my challenge to advisors in the industry.
(32:06):
And I think a lot about this,the long term messaging has been,
this is really difficult. Youcould lose your farm, you could lose
your family, you could pay alot of taxes. You can't do this without
us. And I personally believethat we can shift that message and
say, this is important. It'llbe some of the most meaningful things
you ever do. You can do this.How can I support you?
(32:27):
Absolutely. And you aresupporting us because you wrote a
book for all of us to read. Solet's dive into the newest venture
of Patti, you are a publishedauthor. Congratulations.
Thank you. It is crazy andamazing and it's my response. I think
it's like someone should dosomething. And so I did it.
(32:48):
I know that feeling all toowell of the, you know, somebody should
really be doing this. And it'sjust like, well, I guess that somebody's
looking back at you in amirror. So.
Right.
Tell us about your new book.
So the Future Leader, theSuccessor's Guide to Family Business
Leadership was born out ofsome of the comments I made earlier
(33:11):
of what are the patterns thatseem to be recurring and seem to
be continuing to hold backtransition succession discussions.
And what I was witnessing isthat, my goodness, first of all,
if you wanted to learn aboutsuccession, you could read for the
rest of your life. Like onlineresources, there was no shortage.
So that is not the limitingfactor. But they tend to be geared
(33:33):
to the senior generation andthat actually makes sense because
really all you have to do isfollow the money who has their name
on title, who has checkwriting authority and who is a decision
making authority. And so itwould be natural that advisors would
typically be drawn to thatgeneration. And so that's where a
lot of the messaging has been.But the flaw I have witnessed, and
(33:56):
I'd like to answer is thesecond generation or the upcoming
generation, the successor issaid wait, work hard and trust me.
And that is not even close toenough to give them the right tools
to develop themselves. Theseare smart, young, caring, ambitious
(34:17):
people that are scrambling tofigure out what it is they're supposed
to be doing. And they tend tobe pointed in the direction of operational
tasks, day to day things, andthere's just a lot more to leadership
development that they can takeon and lead themselves. And so hence
(34:38):
the book. It's everything Iwish successors knew but consistently
seem to be missing.
Right. Well then you've doneit. You've put it in the one book
to make it a lot easier forthem. What has been some of the reaction
so far? The book has justrecently come out, but what has been
some of the reaction from yourreaders so far?
I mean, first of all, sharingit in the first place and putting
(35:01):
it out to the world is likewalking around naked. It's really
vulnerable, but the feedbackhas been solid. In particular, I
did a couple things, so it's abusiness fable style. So what it
is is I wrote all of thecontent, the things that I wish people
knew, the concepts andexplaining them and putting them
in an accessible way, but Iput the business fable around it.
(35:22):
So I wrote a story of JordanAnd Kelly Jordan is the successor.
Kelly is a family friend whowas a successor that agrees to mentor
Jordan. And so it's just aconversation between them over a
period of years. And it is anod to so many common patterns that
prove unhelpful or those thatdo prove helpful and just highlighting
(35:46):
some things that areassumptions that are typically incorrect,
some tips and tricks, some ofthe language concepts around self
awareness. I would say thebook covers topics that are a mile
wide and an inch deep. And sothe feedback is, oh, this reminded
me of stuff I kind of alreadyknew, but I just never thought about
(36:07):
it this way, or I couldn't putit down as another piece of feedback
or everybody in my familyneeds to read this, whether they're
planning to farm or not. It'saccessible, it's not super long,
it's digestible. And I call ita care package for successors.
I'm curious of yourperspective on this and when it comes
(36:30):
to leadership in successors. Iwas recently at a conference and
one of the speakers spokeabout leadership and leadership on
a farm, and I was the mc. So Igot to ask questions afterwards.
And one of my questions to theaudience was, who in here sees themselves
(36:54):
as a leader? And the room thatI was speaking to are the successors
of their farm. And very fewraised their hand or stood up. And
then I made them all stand up.Because I said, I see all of you
as leaders, potential leadersof your farm and of your operation
(37:15):
and of your business. And tome, the sign of leadership on the
right path is taking theinitiative to learn more, to be curious.
What do you see as leadershipfor the next generation, for the
successors?
I think you described itreally well that people perceive
(37:36):
leadership as a title. Soyou're the owner or you're the decision
maker, but really leadershipis a behavior that you can perform
from wherever you are. And Ilike how Abby Wambach talks about
it. She was the former captainof the U.S. women's soccer team and
she talks about leading fromthe bench. It's about accountability
(37:56):
to take risks. If you makemistakes, own the mistakes, clean
up, move on, cheeringeverybody on, being a consistent
encourager, being curious, asyou said. So the fact that people
are waiting to lead, theybelieve that again, they need to
have their check writingauthority and name on title for that
to be true. It just isn'ttrue. That's not the case. It's about
(38:20):
the way you choose to liveyour life every day. And these successors
have that opportunity. But youlayer in what we were talking about
earlier in Family DynamicsParent, child relationships and perception
of other family stakeholdersor business stakeholders. There's
a lot of mixed messages anduncertainty, but it doesn't have
(38:43):
to be that way. It can be mademore clear. And so personal accountability
and ownership of it, togetherwith some communication and really
thoughtful, curious questionscan really exemplify what leadership
is.
Absolutely. For the successorsthat are listening right now, what
(39:06):
do you want them to know abouttheir future in their family business?
They can do this, I have nodoubt. And literally only they can.
So therefore, whatresponsibility are they taking for
their own development? Whatare they doing to make progress and
even baby steps count? Butongoing training, networks, peer
(39:31):
groups, leading conversationsand learning to navigate some of
the important conversationsyou talked about earlier. It's how
you choose to live every day.And so and start as early as possible.
If you haven't started yet,today's a great option. I will say
this book I specifically wrotefor 15 to 25 year olds, meaning it
(39:53):
is accessible for them. But Ithink any successor will find this
will find value. There may besome things they might choose to
skim over if it's, you know,maybe old news. But in general, I
feel like there's somethingthat each successor could take home
and put to work because I'vedeveloped it with resources in it.
You know, here's how you mightask this, Here's a. Have you had
(40:15):
this conversation? Do you knowthe answer to this question? So,
yeah, I think just to comeback to the successors, I know you
can do this. How might wesupport you?
Absolutely. And find thepeople that can support you in this.
And that could be aprofessional, that could be your
neighbor, that could besomebody on the Internet who has
(40:37):
gone through the same thingsyou have. Right. Like we can all
learn from each other.
Absolutely. I think that thatis a real risk. And I know that you
think about it, and I'vetalked about this before in terms
of the isolation of ourindustry. Often people don't see
a better way other than whatthey know. And they. What they know
is a sample set of 1. And sowe live in an incredibly connected
(41:00):
time. Don't waste it. Reachout. And if you don't find the first
great contact, go to the nextone. And it's not necessarily about
whether you're introverted orextroverted. It's more so about.
I need more examples or moreinformation than just the one I'm
working on here. So seek thatbecause it's available.
(41:21):
Yeah, absolutely. The beingconnected and having all of this
information is such a gift forus and we should really, really be
using that to our advantage.Patti, what is your vision for the
future of family businessleadership in agriculture?
(41:42):
I have come to the conclusion,and I say it often enough, I said,
I'm tired of watching peoplehurt each other. And because I know
these to be smart, agile,adaptive people who care very much
about making it work, I knowthis is possible. I know that there
will be a time when we willlook back and say, man, can you remember
(42:04):
when it was so crazy how hardtransition was? That's what I crave.
That's what I see. And I seeit happening in terms of the language
that people are using. And Iwant to just keep fanning that flame
and putting more fuel in thattank, more resources and examples
(42:26):
and samples and ways thatpeople can practice it. And then
there will be very little thatwill hold us back because we have
just an incredible resource interms of people and in terms of the
farms and assets and thecountry that we live in. And so imagine
if we weren't tripping overthis narrative that has been repeating
(42:50):
for quite a while. I'msincerely optimistic. Yeah, I can't
wait to witness what happensbecause the potential is great.
Absolutely. Well, and you'veseen what happens when good conversations
happen and respectfulconversations happen and the. It
(43:11):
moves forward and people havethe good stories to share and people
are craving those goodstories. And we want to hear good
stories when it comes totransition and family business and
especially in agriculture. Sothank you for the work that you have
done for the families thatyou've worked with, and thank you
(43:31):
for sharing this wealth ofknowledge with the folks listening
today. And I'm. I'm so excitedto see the bright future of Patti
in Bright Track.
You know what? It takes avillage. I have no desire to do this
alone, but I sure want to becontributing to the common good.
And my hope is that the futureleader becomes a book that people
(43:54):
recommend to their loved ones,to their friends, to their peers
in the industry and pass it onbecause that's where the power will
happen in terms of we can allbe pulling in that direction and.
Yeah, I can't wait.
Yeah, that's amazing. For thefolks listening who would like to
connect with you or find acopy of the book. Where can they
(44:16):
find you and where can theyfind the book?
The best place is at thewebsite www.thefutureleader.ca so
you can go and find the book.You can find it in print, ebook,
and audiobook formats. I knowthere's a fair number of people in
this target audience that arenot readers and I don't want that
(44:37):
that to hold you back. Andthere's also a let's Talk section
so you can reach out to me andwe can continue the conversation.
Perfect. I count audiobooks asreading on my Goodreads total for
the year. Some people mightnot, but I certainly do.
It's a key part of trainingfor me. Like I windshield time is
the reality of living on theprairies. And I I it's very seldom
(45:00):
that I won't be on the road orin some piece of machinery with an
audiobook.
Yeah, absolutely. Patti, mylast question for you is what is
the most rewarding part abouthelping farm families with transition?
When I can feel theirshoulders lower or witness their
(45:22):
shoulders lowering in theconversation. When they recognize
that this is for them andthere is hope. People lose a lot
of sleep over this stuff andit doesn't have to be that way. And
so that, yeah, that's really rewarding.
The shoulders dropping is myfavorite part of any conversation.
(45:46):
When the defense is lower andwe all realize that we are here for
the common good.
We're on the same team.
Yep, Absolutely. Absolutely.Patti, thank you so much for sharing
your story with us. I reallyappreciate it.
My pleasure. Thank you.
(46:06):
Thanks for listening to theRural Woman Podcast. The Rural Woman
Podcast is more than just apodcast. We are a community. A huge
thank you to the Rural WomanPodcast team, Audio Editor Max Hofer.
A special thanks to ourPatreon Executive producers Sarah
Riedner from Happiness by theAcre and Carrie Munven from Blaestone
(46:29):
Farms to learn how you canbecome a Patreon Executive Producer
or other ways to financiallysupport the show. Head on over to
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Subscribe button wherever youyou listen to the podcast to get
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(46:49):
loving the show, please besure to leave a rating and review
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reviews. You can connect withus on social media at the Whirlwoman
Podcast and with me,ildrosefarmer. One of the best ways
you can support the show is bysharing sharing it. Send this episode
(47:11):
to a friend or share on yoursocial media. Let's strengthen and
amplify the voices of women inagriculture together. Until next
time my friend. Keep sharingyour story.
Hi, I'm Katelyn Duban and thisis the Rural Woman Podcast. I'm a
first generation farmer whomarried into agriculture. Born and
raised in a city, I was sounfamiliar with where my food came
from, but I was determined tofigure it out. Through my journey
into agriculture, I saw womenwho were strong but humble, often
(00:59):
taking a backseat.
To me.
These women were leaders whodeserved a seat at the table. I created
the Rural Women Podcast toshare the voices of women in an industry
whose stories often wentuntold. The rural entrepreneurs who
live and breathe their workfull of grit and pride. We come here
(01:21):
to share our stories, to be incommunity with each other, to be
challenged and inspired, butmost importantly, to be celebrated
and to be heard. We may notall live farm, ranch or homestead
the same, but we are allconnected. We are rural women and
(01:42):
our stories are worthy ofbeing told. Hey everyone.
Welcome back to anotherepisode of the Rural Woman Podcast.
Today you'll meet PattiDurand, a 27 year professional agrologist
with a background inentrepreneurship and finance. Patti
(02:04):
has guided hundreds ofCanadian farm business families to
competently navigate the pathsof transition decision making. As
a dynamic speaker and workshopleader, Patti aims to provide relatable,
actionable ideas to helpbusiness families move ahead together
and with certainty. Herpositivity, practical experience
(02:25):
and strategic brain meansPattie can help move a lot of dirt
quickly towards impactfulresults to.
Achieve farm business goals.
Patti has recently authoredthe Future the Successor's Guide
to Family Business Leadership.Friends, I am so excited for you
to meet my friend Patti Durandtoday on the podcast. I recently
(02:46):
had the opportunity to attenda conference with Patti and it was
an absolute delight to be ableto spend so much time with her and
I am so excited to share herwith you today. Before we get to
Patti's interview, we have alistener review. Friends, I don't
know the last time I got toread one of these on the air, but
(03:09):
I'm so excited to do so. Thislistener review comes from Madeline
Parantis. She left this overon the Rural Women Podcast fake Facebook
page. This podcast is a bingeworthy pastime if you are needing
some company during morningchores or something to pass the time
during a grain run drive.These stories are for you. So many
(03:31):
relatable and knowledgeablewomen get to share their daily lives
with us all and it's a joy toget to listen.
I have learned so much about other.
Types of agriculture outsidemy bubble of livestock and for sure
got misty a time or twolistening to some heartfelt sentiments.
I am a true fan and willcontinue to make listening a part
of my daily routine. Well,thank you so much, Madeline for your
(03:56):
kind review over on ourFacebook page. And friends, if you
haven't left a review on anyof the platforms or a number of the
platforms that there are toleave ratings and review out there,
I would truly appreciate it.Apple, you can leave a rating and
review Spotify. You're able torate with stars. And I believe there's
(04:17):
comment sections on Spotifytoo. So if there is a aha moment
or a misty moment for you, Iwould love to hear that your feedback
helps shape the show and wesure do appreciate it here. Without
further ado, my friends, let'sget to this week's episode with Patti.
(04:40):
Patti, welcome to the RuralWoman Podcast. How are you today?
I am happy to be here.
I am also happy you are hereand I feel like I am sitting with
a friend and we are about tohave just a great conversation about
all things Patti andsuccession planning and your new
book and all of the thingsbefore. I fangirl too much over you,
(05:03):
Patti. Tell everyone listeningwho you are, where you're from, and
what your connection toagriculture is.
Ooh, that's a big request. SoPatti Duran is my name. I am from
Humboldt, Saskatchewan, whichhas been home for 27 years. Originally
from a hog and seed farm northof Winnipeg, community called Two
Line Manitoba. The connectionto agriculture, boy it is. It's a
(05:28):
long list. So my husband and Iboth grew up in farms. We both have
our degrees and he has hismaster's in agriculture. We have
been consulting with farmers,but we haven't actively farmed ourselves
for our entire career. And formyself I've had the privilege of
working with hundreds ofCanadian farm families and I can't
(05:50):
tell you specifically what'saround the corner, but I am so optimistic
about the possibilities.
Amazing. Well, you started outon a farm, so tell us about the family
farm growing up.
So like I said, hog and seedoperation, not a big farm like when
we There was 1/4, I guess 2/4owned and one rented, but it was
(06:11):
a value add of the seedbusiness. Also had some cows and
chickens. It was very mixedfarm and big garden, all of those
things and like a 30 sow barnwhich in the 80s was very suitable
and appropriate. My dad had agenetic lung disease and so had chronic
health issues thatprecipitated some pretty significant
(06:33):
changes required andunfortunately he passed away in March
of 92 when I was 16 and so myjourney in agriculture is something
that he didn't get to Witness.And my gosh, I wish I could have
shared it with him. But mytime talking to my mom in particular,
(06:54):
I've often said that shetaught me how to do what I do for
a living because they had aplan and they had conversations about
what the future looked likeand what would happen if something
happened to him. And we hadthe privilege of focusing on grieving
and not whether we could payfor groceries or not. And so then
(07:16):
going into my degree, what Ialready knew to be true about how
much I loved about ruralCanada just was reinforced. And it
was the beginning of a great story.
So let's dive in more to thatstory and that career that you have
built for yourself inagriculture. What have you been doing
since you graduateduniversity? Patti? Just a few years
(07:38):
ago.
Well, and, you know, Idefinitely. And you and I have spoken
about as entrepreneurs, thejourney can be convoluted. And at
some time sometimes in theworld, there's the perception of,
oh, well, you can't reallykeep a job, can you? Like, you're
not very focused. But instead,what I've come to appreciate as I've
(07:59):
matured, as I. As I've grown,is that I'm a project kid. I tend
to move into things, figurethem out, master them and move on.
And that is a skill set. Andso what it equipped my husband and
I to do was build businessesthat allowed us to be home with our
two daughters who were born inthe early 2000s. They're both at
(08:21):
university now. And so I'vetold clients, I've told friends,
I'm like, I can't tell youwhat our next business will be because
I haven't seen it yet. I seehorizon. I tend to look out and anticipate
what's coming. And sometimesI'm more correct than others. But
the path. I started workingfor a herbicide company straight
(08:42):
out of university. Greatexperience with Cyanamid and MBASF.
Then my maternity business. Webought a Mr. Sub franchise, which
we ran for nine years. Myhusband has an agronomic consulting
company. Feel good,Agronomics, which is in its 22nd,
23rd year. And once our girlswere kind of of an age that it made
(09:04):
sense, I went back tocorporate work and worked for Scotiabank.
And little did I know thatthat was filling out my knowledge
from a financial perspective.I'd had marketing background. I'd
been in the boots of anentrepreneur for a long time. We
built things from scratch. Webuilt relationships, systems, understanding
all of those things. Butunderstanding credit and finance
(09:27):
was the final piece before Ipresented at a conference and was
seen by the individual who washiring at Farm Credit Canada for
their agriculture transitionspecialist role, which was a pilot
role in 2018. At first in thatparticular situation, I was not clear
(09:48):
that I was the right personfor that role. But once I understood
that effectively it wasbuilding a business from within,
I realized like, oh yeah, I'mthe right person. And what an incredible
experience.
I love how you framed this ofessentially having such a well rounded
bit of knowledge when it comesto, you know, building up the business
(10:10):
and then the financial piecebeing really something that well
rounded it out. And how oftenis it that people with that entrepreneurial
mindset of getting into newopportunities or being offered new
opportunities and being like,well, I don't think I'm the right
fit for that because I, youknow, I'm not a farmer or I'm not
(10:31):
an xyz. But knowing thatessentially farm business is a business
and it's, you know, you justget to drive a tractor and have fun
running that business versus,you know, whatever else happens.
Like in a family business,like, so having all of that knowledge
and information and havingthat farming background and like
(10:53):
you said, growing up on thefamily farm and experiencing what
you did with the loss of yourdad and having those plans already,
you've already lived throughfarm succession. So what a perfect
fit and opportunity for you.And you know, I know Patti Durant,
through your time at FCC andthe amazing presentations and the
knowledge and information thatyou were able to share and since
(11:15):
moving on from fcc, stillbeing able to do that and give farmers
and farm families theknowledge and the tools to have these
difficult conversations whenit comes to succession planning.
So tell us more about kind ofwhat your current journey is in your
entrepreneurial journey thatyou've been on.
(11:37):
Thanks. Yeah, I, it's good toreflect. I appreciate it. What I
came to realize is that in mytime working with, with farm families
in succession discussions andthey were asking for help, but there
was not necessarily a commonbond other than they farmed in Canada.
So there was large, there wassmall, there was wealthy, there was
(11:58):
high debt, there was young,there was old, there was small families,
big families, quite rural,pretty close to urban, all of these
common things. But there wasuniversal patterns emerging. And
as I was absorbing this anddigesting it and honestly studying
psychology, like I wasabsorbing as much as I could. I'm
(12:18):
like, why do people respondthat way? Why do they hurt each other
like that? Why is it, whyaren't they having these conversations?
What is going on? I developeda sense that as meaningful as it
is to sit with one family, itfeels hopeless when you consider
the tens of thousands ofCanadian farm families in Canada.
(12:39):
And so how might we help morepeople faster? And so taking that
knowledge and saying, okay,you know what? I see a greater need
that I personally am reallydrawn to and I'm going to go and
do that. The most recentcompany, Bright Track Consulting,
was born. Bright Track comesfrom the message that people tell
(13:00):
me that I help to shine alight on the path in the coaching
and conversations and feedbackand listening that I do with them.
I open doors and I plantseeds. I'm not saying you have to
do this. I'm not saying thisis the way. I'm trying to help them
open their mind to whatpossibilities exist. And so Bright
(13:22):
Track Consulting, my long termvision, where I'm aiming, everything
I do is aiming towards afuture in which Canadian business
families are looked to as theexample of communication excellence.
Which sounds ridiculousbecause ultimately I would say we're
kind of the butt of the joke.Family communication. Yeah, right.
I know these people. They aresmart, they are caring, they are
(13:45):
intelligent, and they arequick to adopt good things. And so
I have faith that this ispossible. And so every initiative,
every action I'm taking isleading in that direction. And the
book is really kind of thefirst, biggest piece of that puzzle
that I believe is missing andcould really help.
(14:05):
I love that. And I love thatyou knew within yourself that you
could be doing more and youcould be helping more people. And
being called to do that tellsme who you are as a person. But I
want to dive into kind of thelogistics of succession and succession
(14:26):
planning. And I know at BrightTrack you are helping more than just
farm families. You arehelping, like you said, Canadian
business owners be effectivecommunicators. And what better family
business or businesses ingeneral than to help than farmers?
So I want to talk aboutsuccession planning within farm families.
(14:50):
And I know there are a lot offolks listening who maybe are hesitant
to have these conversationsnot only around their kitchen table,
but they're hesitant to evenhave them with their partners. Talk
to me about starting theseconversations. How do people start
(15:11):
the conversation aboutsuccession planning?
So, I mean, the answers variedgreatly and. But one of the patterns
that I've witnessed and that Iwould draw attention to is I feel
like there's been a lot ofadvice around this in succession
and investment in resourcesfor decades and yet the statistics
(15:33):
aren't getting better. Sosomething's wrong. And one of the
things that I feel is amiss isthat in advising and in the recommendations
for firm families, you have tohave this conversation and talk to
them about this or talk tothem about this. And what it does
is that it assumes that thepeople have the actual language of
(15:54):
how to do that. So my questionis not about their intelligence.
These are smart people.They've just never done this before.
And so one piece of thepuzzle, and that's what I certainly
attempt to do inpresentations, in workshops, in the
resources I'm building, isaround, how might you say that? How
(16:15):
would you phrase that? Andliterally some scripts that people
can build upon around, okay,if you had to have a question about
wills and estates or about ifyou're concerned about someone's
mental health, or if you hadto introduce the possibility of a
prenuptial agreement, theseare all things that people, they
hear them and they canliterally feel it physically, like
(16:35):
it tightens their chest.Understandably, these are sensitive
and there's risk involved inthe conversation, but that's not
a good enough reason to nothave it. But it's also okay to say,
I don't know how to have thisconversation. So we can, as advisors,
we can kind of wag our fingerand say, do better. But I actually
believe that we are failing toequip. And that's one of the gaps
(17:00):
and why conversations don'tstart in the first place. It's also
where having a third partyfacilitator to be a catalyst to create
a safe space to start theconversation can really take time
off the process. For somefamilies, that's a really important
ingredient.
I think the language piece isso important and I think the language
(17:22):
which we use can really makeor break that conversation to like
get right out of the gate andsay something that is going to offend
your father in law or youknow, make the millennial farmer
have hurt feelings about thework or whatever they've provided.
(17:42):
You had mentioned a lot oftimes when we're having these conversations,
and I'm guessing it's not.It's the lack of language, of knowing
what to say or how to say it,the hurt feelings that come along
with it. And recovering fromthose conversations, I think takes
more time than learning thecorrect language to start these conversations
(18:06):
completely.
One thing that I, I personallypractice, and I will recommend it
consistently is if you haveany hesitation about having a conversation,
and I will call it important.Some people call it difficult, some
people call it hard. I'msaying it's an important conversation.
Take the time and makeyourself a script in a Safe place.
Write out what it is you'retrying to say and work it through
(18:28):
until you can find thoseperfect words. And sometimes you
can bring it to anotherfriend, like a trusted friend and
say, hey, can you have a lookat this? How does this sound? Can
you poke holes in this idea?Because even for myself, if I know
that it's an importantconversation and I'm anxious about
saying it incorrectly, forgoodness sake, I'm a professional
speaker, I will write myself ascript and I will hold it up and
(18:49):
I'll say, caitlin, I havesomething important to say and I'm
really concerned about sayingit incorrectly. So I'm actually going
to read it to you so I can bekind and gentle and I will read it
out. Because our brains arenot our friend when we are in that
state, there's sticks that aregoing to get thrown in the spokes
unintentionally and this istoo precious to not care for it properly.
(19:12):
Absolutely. And you know, wehad mentioned it's smart people having
these conversations and thereis absolutely no shame in writing
out what you're going to say,figuring out what it is that's important
to you so you don't miss itbecause it is anxiety inducing. And
when you're in fight or flightmode, your brain is not working up
(19:36):
top, in tip top shape. So ofcourse there's the opportunity to
say something wrong or to missa point that you wanted to make.
Talk to me about, you know,once we have the language or once
we feel confident in themessaging moving forward that we
want to have these successionconversations, what are some of just
(20:01):
the basic preliminary stepsthat farm families should be looking
at when it comes to planningfor succession? And we can do this
for each generation. What arethe plans for the current older generation
and what are the plans for theupcoming generation?
It's a big question. And Iwill say that I, I don't think there's
(20:22):
a one way, and I repeat thatoften people are looking for the
way. How, you know, how are wegonna do this? And like, there is
no one way, but there is oneway that will be most perfect for
you or the best optionavailable. But something that I have
witnessed is that specificallyin our industry, in our culture of
agriculture, it is notperceived as a safe place to express
(20:44):
your needs. It's perceived asselfish, it's perceived as greedy,
and you don't want to comeacross like that. But ultimately,
succession is a needsanalysis. What do you need? What
do you need? What do you need?Can the farm business handle it?
And so if every person cantake responsibility for what I need
(21:05):
is certainty for the future,here's my cost of living. So here's
some income needs andspecifications, and I've done some
of the math and I have a goodset of that. I'm hoping that I'll
own a home at some point orsome land, some livestock, whatever
that might look like. So fillin those blanks and really paint
the clearest picture youpossibly can of what the desired
(21:26):
outcome will look like andwhat role clarity you might need.
And this goes for everygeneration, right? So it's not necessarily
about the senior generationexiting, but how will their role
change? What involvement wouldthey love to continue to have, if
that's their choice or ifthat's their preference? If you can
express what your needs areand bring that to the table, that's
(21:47):
what allows you to say, oh,okay, like, let's look at the math.
The possibilities of thisentity, of this enterprise, can it
meet these needs? Sometimes itcan't. And so you need to kind of
rejig and address it. But theability for each person to take responsibility
for clearly stating what theirhopes and dreams are specifically
in their needs for the futureis deeply powerful and will lay out
(22:11):
a path like nothing else will.
And even me hearing that, andit's so black and white. And when
you're thinking about it andwhen you are imagining this conversation,
nine times out of 10, it'sprobably not black and white in your
head. There's those emotionsmixed into it, right? But at the
end of the day, it's black andwhite. It's numbers on a piece of
(22:34):
paper. It's saying that thisis my cost of living, this is what
I need out of an operation tocontinue my lifestyle after retirement
on a farm, right? It doesn'tseem so hard, but when there's those
emotions in there, that's whenthe big feelings and potentially
(22:58):
the hurt feelings can come outof it, right?
And just the. The guilt ofexpressing your personal wants, there's
something there that is. Thepeople tend to withhold and in fact,
they deny it all the time.They don't even think it, never mind
speak it. It's not everyfamily, but it is a common enough
bond that I feel it's worthtalking about once people have that
(23:20):
sense. And I hesitate to sayblack and white because, I mean,
everything's gray. But to thebest of our ability here and based
on what we know right now, notbeing able to tell it, read the future,
say, this is what I hope for.Can you State that. Can you clearly
paint that picture so otherpeople can adopt and think about
(23:41):
what it is that's important toyou? That's it's a robust conversation
and it can be hard to getthere. But my gosh, it's so freeing
once it's clear because thenyou can all pull in the same direction.
Talk to us about the benefitsof having a neutral third party in
those conversations.
I really appreciate a quotefrom Elizabeth Gilbert, who is the
(24:02):
author of Eat Pray Love. Andthe quote is, our family knows how
to push our buttons becausethey installed them. And that's why
we can't not trip on some ofour family habits, history, baggage
preferences, assumptions,stories. And even when we're working
(24:24):
really, really hard to bedisciplined, to be performing or
speaking in a businesslikeway, we're gonna get triggered. There's
those little things. And sohaving a third party can kind of
set a tone of expectationamongst everybody and everybody's
behavior tends to tighten up alittle bit. And in a more respectful
way, I would say a goodfacilitator will also have some specific
(24:47):
rules of engagement in termsof this is undivided focus. We're
turning off the phones, we'returning off our watches, there's
no laptops, there's no iPads.We need to give undivided focus for
this to be really effective.They will make sure everybody has
a voice at the table. So itcreates balance where there might
be imbalance otherwise, youknow, the talkers and the not talkers,
that type of thing. Anotherbeautiful thing is that they don't
(25:11):
know what they don't know. Sothey can ask questions that are very
difficult for in familymembers to ask. So I'll give an example.
Like in a family, they'll say,well, you know what I mean? And as
a facilitator, I'll say, Iactually don't know what you mean.
Say more. So the kind ofshortcuts that happen in conversation,
that's actually the nuggets.That's where you peel back some layers
(25:32):
and go, wait a minute, thisactually isn't clear or consistent
or known across the board. Wedon't have a level understanding
here. And so that can bereally powerful and fun. Like the
moments in those rooms whenpeople are like really like things
that they learn about theirfamily members in those moments.
(25:54):
It's pretty powerful.
Well, and like you had said,like, expressing your wants and needs
is not something I feel like alot of us do on a day to day basis
anyways. And like you said,when you're with your farming family,
and you're with them everyday, and you're working every day,
and you think you're workingtowards the same goal, but sometimes
(26:15):
I'm sure it comes out in thoseconversations that you're not even
speaking the same language.And just to have that clarification
around what your wants, needsand expectations are, what a gift
to have.
(27:39):
Yeah. And it can be acatalyst. It can be something that
everything else can be builtupon. It's like, it's my goal, actually,
when I'm in thoseconversations, is that this will
be a touchstone conversationthat people will think back to as,
like, that moment. Not to beso grandiose, but rather. Okay, this
is when we kind of circled thewagons and really began from a place
(28:02):
of understanding.
I have a question for you, andthis is a really broad question because
you've worked with hundredsand hundreds of farm families and
families across Canada. As afarmer myself, and as a person who
gets to connect with a lot ofamazing farmers through the podcast
or through conferences, Ithink it's often that we hear the
(28:22):
horror stories when it comesto succession planning and the lack
of planning and all of thethings. But I want to flip that around
because we've all heard enoughhorror stories. Talk to me about
some of the biggest wins thatyou have seen with your clients throughout
the years.
I love your comments abouthorror stories. I. For whatever reason,
(28:43):
I'm just going to make a quickcomment on this. I actually have
a. It's kind of a bone to pickfrom an advisory perspective in an
effort to monetize servicesand sell them. It uses fear as a
motivator. Fear is a crappymotivator. It doesn't work. It actually
results in paralysis. And thiswork, no matter how fluffy it might
(29:03):
sound, you have to begin withhope. It is a critical success factor
in my mind. And so I willstart with families again. Nobody
cares about this like you do.You are intelligent. You have figured
things out before. You have todo this. How might I support you
and not have to, as in, onlyyou can do this. This is yours. Having
(29:25):
that vote of confidence issomething that I think we can all
do and encourage each other inthe industry and say, you can do
this. You've done freakinghard things before. Like, give me
the list, let's go. So there'sthat. The stories. Oh, gosh, Patti.
We incorporated, like, oh, mygosh. Really? Like, holy cow, this
(29:48):
actually happened. So that'slike just one little example. Or
the dad that came up to memonths later and he's like, Patti,
like, that conversationchanged the way we're treating each
other, or we're talking toeach other differently now. And not
to say that it's me that'sdoing it, but they recognize that
it was a shift of the way theywere looking at things and that they
(30:10):
grew in awareness of what wastheirs and that it was their responsibility
to take action. I've also hadfamilies where they said, you know
what, we actually realize nowthat this is, we need to stop trying.
Like, it's time for us to partways. That's not a fail. Like, if
that provides relief andpermission to stop trying something
(30:33):
that's really not working,like, that's okay too. Even awareness
of their position, becausesome businesses are in a tough spot
and for them to have a safeplace to say, yeah, this isn't working,
I would call that a win aswell. Largely, though, I feel like
a lot of the clients I'veworked with in recent years, it almost
(30:55):
like I send them off likeships into the night, and I'm really
hopeful for them. But Icontinue to have little bits of feedback
and threads that tell me thatthey're figuring it out. And I know
they can.
And I think that piece for youhas to make. Those are the feel good
moments when you've given themjust a way, a path, a light to the
(31:20):
path of which way to go. Andlike you've said, you know, we're,
we're smart people, weunderstand business, we understand
finances, we understand thesethings. It's just the family piece
that sometimes can make it alittle bit more complicated. But
I honestly think sharing thesuccess stories is more important
(31:42):
than sharing, like we said,the stories that we've all heard
time and time again. Becauseit is paralyzing. It is a way to
make us stop in our tracks andover analyze absolutely everything
instead of just having theconversation that's black, white,
and a little gray in between.
Yeah. And it's, I would say,my challenge to advisors in the industry.
(32:06):
And I think a lot about this,the long term messaging has been,
this is really difficult. Youcould lose your farm, you could lose
your family, you could pay alot of taxes. You can't do this without
us. And I personally believethat we can shift that message and
say, this is important. It'llbe some of the most meaningful things
you ever do. You can do this.How can I support you?
(32:27):
Absolutely. And you aresupporting us because you wrote a
book for all of us to read. Solet's dive into the newest venture
of Patti, you are a publishedauthor. Congratulations.
Thank you. It is crazy andamazing and it's my response. I think
it's like someone should dosomething. And so I did it.
(32:48):
I know that feeling all toowell of the, you know, somebody should
really be doing this. And it'sjust like, well, I guess that somebody's
looking back at you in amirror. So.
Right.
Tell us about your new book.
So the Future Leader, theSuccessor's Guide to Family Business
Leadership was born out ofsome of the comments I made earlier
(33:11):
of what are the patterns thatseem to be recurring and seem to
be continuing to hold backtransition succession discussions.
And what I was witnessing isthat, my goodness, first of all,
if you wanted to learn aboutsuccession, you could read for the
rest of your life. Like onlineresources, there was no shortage.
So that is not the limitingfactor. But they tend to be geared
(33:33):
to the senior generation andthat actually makes sense because
really all you have to do isfollow the money who has their name
on title, who has checkwriting authority and who is a decision
making authority. And so itwould be natural that advisors would
typically be drawn to thatgeneration. And so that's where a
lot of the messaging has been.But the flaw I have witnessed, and
(33:56):
I'd like to answer is thesecond generation or the upcoming
generation, the successor issaid wait, work hard and trust me.
And that is not even close toenough to give them the right tools
to develop themselves. Theseare smart, young, caring, ambitious
(34:17):
people that are scrambling tofigure out what it is they're supposed
to be doing. And they tend tobe pointed in the direction of operational
tasks, day to day things, andthere's just a lot more to leadership
development that they can takeon and lead themselves. And so hence
(34:38):
the book. It's everything Iwish successors knew but consistently
seem to be missing.
Right. Well then you've doneit. You've put it in the one book
to make it a lot easier forthem. What has been some of the reaction
so far? The book has justrecently come out, but what has been
some of the reaction from yourreaders so far?
I mean, first of all, sharingit in the first place and putting
(35:01):
it out to the world is likewalking around naked. It's really
vulnerable, but the feedbackhas been solid. In particular, I
did a couple things, so it's abusiness fable style. So what it
is is I wrote all of thecontent, the things that I wish people
knew, the concepts andexplaining them and putting them
in an accessible way, but Iput the business fable around it.
(35:22):
So I wrote a story of JordanAnd Kelly Jordan is the successor.
Kelly is a family friend whowas a successor that agrees to mentor
Jordan. And so it's just aconversation between them over a
period of years. And it is anod to so many common patterns that
prove unhelpful or those thatdo prove helpful and just highlighting
(35:46):
some things that areassumptions that are typically incorrect,
some tips and tricks, some ofthe language concepts around self
awareness. I would say thebook covers topics that are a mile
wide and an inch deep. And sothe feedback is, oh, this reminded
me of stuff I kind of alreadyknew, but I just never thought about
(36:07):
it this way, or I couldn't putit down as another piece of feedback
or everybody in my familyneeds to read this, whether they're
planning to farm or not. It'saccessible, it's not super long,
it's digestible. And I call ita care package for successors.
I'm curious of yourperspective on this and when it comes
(36:30):
to leadership in successors. Iwas recently at a conference and
one of the speakers spokeabout leadership and leadership on
a farm, and I was the mc. So Igot to ask questions afterwards.
And one of my questions to theaudience was, who in here sees themselves
(36:54):
as a leader? And the room thatI was speaking to are the successors
of their farm. And very fewraised their hand or stood up. And
then I made them all stand up.Because I said, I see all of you
as leaders, potential leadersof your farm and of your operation
(37:15):
and of your business. And tome, the sign of leadership on the
right path is taking theinitiative to learn more, to be curious.
What do you see as leadershipfor the next generation, for the
successors?
I think you described itreally well that people perceive
(37:36):
leadership as a title. Soyou're the owner or you're the decision
maker, but really leadershipis a behavior that you can perform
from wherever you are. And Ilike how Abby Wambach talks about
it. She was the former captainof the U.S. women's soccer team and
she talks about leading fromthe bench. It's about accountability
(37:56):
to take risks. If you makemistakes, own the mistakes, clean
up, move on, cheeringeverybody on, being a consistent
encourager, being curious, asyou said. So the fact that people
are waiting to lead, theybelieve that again, they need to
have their check writingauthority and name on title for that
to be true. It just isn'ttrue. That's not the case. It's about
(38:20):
the way you choose to liveyour life every day. And these successors
have that opportunity. But youlayer in what we were talking about
earlier in Family DynamicsParent, child relationships and perception
of other family stakeholdersor business stakeholders. There's
a lot of mixed messages anduncertainty, but it doesn't have
(38:43):
to be that way. It can be mademore clear. And so personal accountability
and ownership of it, togetherwith some communication and really
thoughtful, curious questionscan really exemplify what leadership
is.
Absolutely. For the successorsthat are listening right now, what
(39:06):
do you want them to know abouttheir future in their family business?
They can do this, I have nodoubt. And literally only they can.
So therefore, whatresponsibility are they taking for
their own development? Whatare they doing to make progress and
even baby steps count? Butongoing training, networks, peer
(39:31):
groups, leading conversationsand learning to navigate some of
the important conversationsyou talked about earlier. It's how
you choose to live every day.And so and start as early as possible.
If you haven't started yet,today's a great option. I will say
this book I specifically wrotefor 15 to 25 year olds, meaning it
(39:53):
is accessible for them. But Ithink any successor will find this
will find value. There may besome things they might choose to
skim over if it's, you know,maybe old news. But in general, I
feel like there's somethingthat each successor could take home
and put to work because I'vedeveloped it with resources in it.
You know, here's how you mightask this, Here's a. Have you had
(40:15):
this conversation? Do you knowthe answer to this question? So,
yeah, I think just to comeback to the successors, I know you
can do this. How might wesupport you?
Absolutely. And find thepeople that can support you in this.
And that could be aprofessional, that could be your
neighbor, that could besomebody on the Internet who has
(40:37):
gone through the same thingsyou have. Right. Like we can all
learn from each other.
Absolutely. I think that thatis a real risk. And I know that you
think about it, and I'vetalked about this before in terms
of the isolation of ourindustry. Often people don't see
a better way other than whatthey know. And they. What they know
is a sample set of 1. And sowe live in an incredibly connected
(41:00):
time. Don't waste it. Reachout. And if you don't find the first
great contact, go to the nextone. And it's not necessarily about
whether you're introverted orextroverted. It's more so about.
I need more examples or moreinformation than just the one I'm
working on here. So seek thatbecause it's available.
(41:21):
Yeah, absolutely. The beingconnected and having all of this
information is such a gift forus and we should really, really be
using that to our advantage.Patti, what is your vision for the
future of family businessleadership in agriculture?
(41:42):
I have come to the conclusion,and I say it often enough, I said,
I'm tired of watching peoplehurt each other. And because I know
these to be smart, agile,adaptive people who care very much
about making it work, I knowthis is possible. I know that there
will be a time when we willlook back and say, man, can you remember
(42:04):
when it was so crazy how hardtransition was? That's what I crave.
That's what I see. And I seeit happening in terms of the language
that people are using. And Iwant to just keep fanning that flame
and putting more fuel in thattank, more resources and examples
(42:26):
and samples and ways thatpeople can practice it. And then
there will be very little thatwill hold us back because we have
just an incredible resource interms of people and in terms of the
farms and assets and thecountry that we live in. And so imagine
if we weren't tripping overthis narrative that has been repeating
(42:50):
for quite a while. I'msincerely optimistic. Yeah, I can't
wait to witness what happensbecause the potential is great.
Absolutely. Well, and you'veseen what happens when good conversations
happen and respectfulconversations happen and the. It
(43:11):
moves forward and people havethe good stories to share and people
are craving those goodstories. And we want to hear good
stories when it comes totransition and family business and
especially in agriculture. Sothank you for the work that you have
done for the families thatyou've worked with, and thank you
(43:31):
for sharing this wealth ofknowledge with the folks listening
today. And I'm. I'm so excitedto see the bright future of Patti
in Bright Track.
You know what? It takes avillage. I have no desire to do this
alone, but I sure want to becontributing to the common good.
And my hope is that the futureleader becomes a book that people
(43:54):
recommend to their loved ones,to their friends, to their peers
in the industry and pass it onbecause that's where the power will
happen in terms of we can allbe pulling in that direction and.
Yeah, I can't wait.
Yeah, that's amazing. For thefolks listening who would like to
connect with you or find acopy of the book. Where can they
(44:16):
find you and where can theyfind the book?
The best place is at thewebsite www.thefutureleader.ca so
you can go and find the book.You can find it in print, ebook,
and audiobook formats. I knowthere's a fair number of people in
this target audience that arenot readers and I don't want that
(44:37):
that to hold you back. Andthere's also a let's Talk section
so you can reach out to me andwe can continue the conversation.
Perfect. I count audiobooks asreading on my Goodreads total for
the year. Some people mightnot, but I certainly do.
It's a key part of trainingfor me. Like I windshield time is
the reality of living on theprairies. And I I it's very seldom
(45:00):
that I won't be on the road orin some piece of machinery with an
audiobook.
Yeah, absolutely. Patti, mylast question for you is what is
the most rewarding part abouthelping farm families with transition?
When I can feel theirshoulders lower or witness their
(45:22):
shoulders lowering in theconversation. When they recognize
that this is for them andthere is hope. People lose a lot
of sleep over this stuff andit doesn't have to be that way. And
so that, yeah, that's really rewarding.
The shoulders dropping is myfavorite part of any conversation.
(45:46):
When the defense is lower andwe all realize that we are here for
the common good.
We're on the same team.
Yep, Absolutely. Absolutely.Patti, thank you so much for sharing
your story with us. I reallyappreciate it.
My pleasure. Thank you.
(46:06):
Thanks for listening to theRural Woman Podcast. The Rural Woman
Podcast is more than just apodcast. We are a community. A huge
thank you to the Rural WomanPodcast team, Audio Editor Max Hofer.
A special thanks to ourPatreon Executive producers Sarah
Riedner from Happiness by theAcre and Carrie Munven from Blaestone
(46:29):
Farms to learn how you canbecome a Patreon Executive Producer
or other ways to financiallysupport the show. Head on over to
wildrosefarmer.com to learnmore. Be sure to hit the Follow or
Subscribe button wherever youyou listen to the podcast to get
the latest episodes directlyon your playlist. And if you are
(46:49):
loving the show, please besure to leave a rating and review
on Apple Podcast or any otherplatform that accepts ratings and
reviews. You can connect withus on social media at the Whirlwoman
Podcast and with me,ildrosefarmer. One of the best ways
you can support the show is bysharing sharing it. Send this episode
(47:11):
to a friend or share on yoursocial media. Let's strengthen and
amplify the voices of women inagriculture together. Until next
time my friend. Keep sharingyour story.
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