Episode 48 - Christianity Vs. Jehovah's Witnesses - The Saints That Serve Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (00:02):
Welcome to the Saints that Serve, podcast where, each
week, your hosts dive into thecrossroads of faith, culture and
the unknown.

Speaker 1 (00:15):
Christ is Lord and the kingdom is now.
We are the Saints that Serve.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
Welcome to the Saints that Serve.
Podcast with your hosts, Johnnyand Jairus.

Speaker 1 (00:58):
How you doing bud.
That was your funnier than lastweek.

Speaker 3 (01:05):
No, it wasn't funnier than last week, but it was
funny, Do it?

Speaker 1 (01:10):
lady.
So right before we started Itold John, it's your week to
introduce the podcast.
And I said introduce it, but befunnier than my far away bit
last week.
I couldn't.

Speaker 2 (01:22):
I was on the spot, I couldn't think of anything, so I
just stuck with the do it lady.

Speaker 1 (01:28):
That is the Saints that Serve, podcast, episode 48.
Wow, one and up me, okay.
So I'm sitting here, as we wereso a little peek behind the
curtain Before every episode.
We pray before we start theepisode and as we're praying we
say amen and I look down and Isee on my.

(01:49):
So again I guess double peekbehind the curtain.
Both john and I both havesoundboards for the show.
Yeah, so he has a bit of a morerobust soundboard that he kind
of edits and uses throughout theuh.
And then I have like one that'sbuilt into the soundboard like
the audio soundboard for our youknow recording purposes, for

(02:11):
the recording purposes, and Isee one button here that says
you know, I have my differentyou know buttons and they're
labeled and one says eating andI'm just trying to rack my brain
to what the eating was.
Just do it, let's see whathappens.
I'm gonna press it, see whathappens what a flashback oh my

(02:37):
gosh that was.

Speaker 2 (02:39):
That was our political episode back in nove
November of last year.

Speaker 1 (02:43):
Yeah, that's crazy Taking us back.
So if you haven't watched ourlive stream of the election
night as we went through andjust hung out and kind of
monitored the election resultsSpoiler warning Trump won.
But you know you can go backand have some fun with that.

Speaker 2 (03:03):
Yeah, Trump won, but you can go back and have some
fun with that.
Can you believe that he's onlybeen in office for eight months?
Now almost nine months.

Speaker 1 (03:10):
It's been almost nine months now.

Speaker 2 (03:12):
yeah, it feels like it's been much longer it has.

Speaker 1 (03:15):
It's crazy.
Well, I guess because we hadthe whole lead up and all the
nonsense of the political racebetween what it started to be
Biden and Trump, and then itturned into Kamala and Trump,
and then just all that.
So that really was like a two,one and a half year debacle

(03:35):
within itself leading up to ityeah, I mean it was definitely
nothing ever like it has everhappened before.

Speaker 2 (03:42):
But I think the bigger thing is because the news
cycle is so quick, like thenext story, like the interval
between the next big story is soshort now that it feels like
there's been so much timebetween Inauguration Day and

(04:03):
whatever the most recent storyis now.
I don't know, I don't remember.

Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:07):
I mean, the last thing that I got caught up in
was the flooding in Texas, andever since then and that's been
a couple of weeks now I haven'treally kept up with anything
going on in the world.

Speaker 1 (04:21):
Yeah, but yeah, this isn't a political podcast, this
is the Saints that Serve podcast.
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
And on this episode we haveannouncements.
What are our announcements?

Speaker 2 (04:34):
We pray for you every Friday.
So make sure Every singleFriday that if you need prayer
for something, make sure to letus know.
You can direct message usthrough the link at the bottom
of the description for this showor any of our shows.

Speaker 1 (04:50):
They're all there because I put them there.

Speaker 2 (04:51):
They're all there.
You can email us atthesaintsthatserve, at gmailcom,
or you can reach out to usthrough any of our social media,
through Instagram Threads,facebook X, all of it.
We're there.
So, yeah, if you need prayer,just reach out.
And, um, we have a special oneyear anniversary coming up, so

(05:12):
we're gonna do a special maybe alittle bit of an extended maybe
not super long, but just alittle bit of a extended podcast
where we just kind of reflecton the year and we'll have some
guests we'll have some guests.
We'll talk about our highs andour lows and our mids.
You know what I?

Speaker 1 (05:31):
mean, and uh, speaking of that, I saw mid, no,
speaking of highs and lows.
Okay, we were, uh, me andashley were driving somewhere
yesterday, uh-huh, and I saw abumper sticker uh-huh, and the
letter G, the like a.
What is it?
It's not like a bracket, butit's kind of like the the

(05:52):
greater than less than symbolyes, and then an up arrow, then
a down arrow, and I was sittingthere thinking about it and
thinking about it and I was soproud when I realized what it
meant.
What does it mean?
So it's the letter g, yeah, thegreater, sans greater than
symbol, up and down.
It's god is greater than thehighs and lows oh nice, yeah I.

Speaker 2 (06:17):
all of it goes over my head.
The only thing that I get isthe he is greater than I bumper
sticker.
I don't know if you've everseen that, but like it's really
big in Hawaii, like they've gotan actual boutique store a
decade ago, but yeah.
So like everyone had thatbumper sticker Like the he is

(06:38):
greater than I and everyone hadthe shirt and everything.

Speaker 1 (06:41):
Does it say he is greater than I, or is it like in
symbols, it's he, and thengreater than sign I?
He is greater than I.
Or is it like in symbols, it'she, and then greater than sign I
?
He is greater than I.

Speaker 2 (06:49):
Yeah, that's cool, that's pretty cool, but anyways,
yeah, that's pretty much it forannouncements.
We really need to spend therest of our time talking about
our topic tonight.

Speaker 1 (06:59):
Real quick.
Before we start, I have a quicklittle let me apologize segment
.

Speaker 2 (07:05):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (07:06):
Wait, wait, wait, wait.
Say that again.
I have a quick let me apologizesegment.
Yeah, boy, yeah, because Isound like that right now.
Go ahead.
So three little things.
So when editing the podcastlast week, I noticed when I was
talking about the DCEU movieverse I completely left out

(07:30):
Wonder Woman 1984, which is partof the list of those movies I
know.
But it wasn't a good movie.
She did not, she did not do it,she did not do it, lady, not in
that movie Dang.
And then, when I was talkingabout the DC animated cartoon
universe not the movies, but theTV shows I completely left out

(07:55):
the TV show Batman Beyond,batman Beyond, which was a great
show.

Speaker 2 (08:00):
You know what I think I can say with everybody else?

Speaker 1 (08:05):
I forgive you.
Well, I'm not done.
Oh, I got one more.

Speaker 2 (08:09):
Huh.
My face Go ahead.

Speaker 1 (08:11):
I was sick.
I was sick for the past coupleof days.
So at this point I feel great,great, my body feels great, but
I probably don't sound great.

Speaker 2 (08:25):
Well, I think you sound great.
I just think that there's arandom.
I got the black lung pop.

Speaker 1 (08:32):
It does and I'm coughing randomly, but it
doesn't hurt.
Like it did.

Speaker 2 (08:36):
First person to comment what movie that's from.
Do it one more time for us Getsa virtual high five from me.
I've got the black lung pop.

Speaker 1 (08:48):
I feel like that's going to be like a cartoon of
some kind.
Nope, not a cartoon.
All right, in the comments tellus what cartoon that is.
It is a movie with.

Speaker 2 (08:59):
I don't know if I want to say no, don't give any
hints.

Speaker 1 (09:03):
Okay, just talk about it, just reveal it next week.

Speaker 2 (09:05):
It's not a cartoon, I'll reveal it next week.
Okay, all right, so tonight ourtopic.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
So Tyler you always forget about the T-man.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
You know what I need to apologize.

Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, boy.

Speaker 2 (09:20):
Tyler, I'm sorry for not including you in our segment
transitions.
So, Tyler, this is yourtransition.
We are going to end our maintopic, which is Christians vs
JWs or Christians vs Jehovah'sWitnesses.

Speaker 1 (09:42):
That's right.
Knock knock.
Who's there, the Jehovah'sWitness at that's right.
Knock knock.
Who's there, the Jehovah'sWitness at your door.

Speaker 2 (09:51):
Oh boy, oh boy.
No, I actually ironically, likewhen I got serious and devoted
myself to Christ and, like,became a believer, I have not
run into any opportunity to talkto it.

Speaker 1 (10:09):
Like when you have enough knowledge and you have
enough like what is it?
The drive to spread the word ofGod.

Speaker 2 (10:19):
Yeah, now that I have my own faith, like that, I I
know what.
I believe the opportunity todiscuss it, like with him
knocking on my door, hasn'treally happened like I've had
one time.
And the ironic thing is I didnot realize they were jws,
because they came knocked on mydoor, invited me to a sunday
service or invited us to aneaster service.

(10:41):
That was on saturday night andwe already had something going
on with our church, I think.
But I was like, oh, I'd love tomake it, but I can't.
And he's like, all right, butwe're just talking about Jesus
Christ, the Son of God, who died.
And I was like, yep, I totallybelieve that.
He's like, okay, great.
And then he left and that wasit.
And like, literally, it was theonce he drove off I did the

(11:06):
head slap.
I was like, oh, he was aJehovah's Witness.
No, no.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
So kind of similar to that for me was like somebody
came to the door and answered itand just invited us and handed
me a pamphlet.
And I'm just kind of likebecause at the church I was
going to we did that all thetime, you know what I mean.
Like went and talked to peopleand just like knocked on doors
and invited them to church andI'm just like in my mind when

(11:36):
they came, like they said I wantyou to come.
And just in my mind I'm like,well, I already have a church.
So I kind of ignored it.
No, and set it down on thecounter and then later on looked
at like oh, this is forjehovah's witness, like
jehovah's witnesses.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
and I just do it in the trash.
It's like dang got him, got himhold up there, uh.
No, yeah, the only other timeI've had when I was working for
other people, I had someone whowas one of our technicians when
I was a manager.
He came in and worked for alittle while.
He was a Jehovah's Witness.
We would talk and, uh, I thinkI I mean I don't think that he

(12:29):
stopped being a jehovah'switness, but I think I gave him
a lot to think about, becausethe biggest thing like and we'll
get into it, but the jehovah'switness have their own
translation of the bible, thenew living translation is that
what it's called?

Speaker 1 (12:41):
yeah, in nw.

Speaker 2 (12:44):
So they like, but their belief is this is the only
accurate translation.
All other translations arewrong, and so if you use any
other translation, it won't beas accurate as the NLT NWT.

Speaker 1 (13:03):
NWT, nwo, I thoughtT.

Speaker 2 (13:06):
NWT, nwo I thought it was New World Order.
I thought it was New LivingTranslation.

Speaker 1 (13:10):
My notes say NWT New World, translation, new World.

Speaker 2 (13:14):
Translation.
Okay, anyways, but yeah, so youknow, him and I were talking
one time and we went to I mean,we went to the classic verse and
john 1 1 in the beginning wasthe word and the word was with
god and the word was god.
And in the context of that he'stalking about jesus christ.
But so in the translation thatthe jw's use, it translates it

(13:44):
different.
It doesn't say that in thebeginning was the word and the
word was with God, the word waswith God or the word was God.
It says like the word was a God, it separates the two.
And so him and I got to talkingabout that and he's like, well,
you know, some translationstranslate it that way and some
translated the other.
I was like no translationstranslate it that way and some

(14:05):
translate it the other.
I was like, no, the only onethat translated that way is your
translation.
And so I walked him through,cause I had the app out.
I pulled up differenttranslation after translation
after translation, the only onethat altered.
They all said it the exact sameway.
The only one that altered wasthe Jehovah's witness Bible.
And and the conversation juststopped after that.
He was just like, oh, I'm oh.

Speaker 1 (14:29):
Oh yeah, so I was talking to a coworker about this
this week, about just kind oftalking to people who disagree
with you or need the word yeah,and it's like we can approach
people and we should approachpeople, but no, no one's really
if especially lost people yeahthey're not gonna really take it

(14:53):
and utilize it and consider it.
Yeah, unless they're willing totake it and utilize it and
consider it.
Like if you just go up tosomebody randomly and say, god,
god loves you, this is why Godloves you, you need to be saved
you say that they're going tothink you're crazy.
It's people who you can plantthat seed, but until somebody

(15:14):
really wants to make a change intheir life, they're not going
to make a change in their life.

Speaker 2 (15:21):
Yeah, the Bible talks about it with.
The Holy Spirit has to put thatconviction on your heart, like
the light has to shine into yourlife in order for you to
realize that something's off.

Speaker 1 (15:39):
I mean, you might be that seed to start that.
But it's more of a story.
It's up to you to choose Christ.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
The Bible does say you have to confess with your
mouth and believe in your heartand you will be saved.
So yeah, that's the key wordyou.
It ultimately comes down toeach individual.
You know there is the argumentthat the Calvinist will make

(16:15):
that it's the Holy Spiritoverwhelming you and, you know,
leading you into that becauseyou were predestined to be saved
anyways.
But regardless of whetheryou're a Calvinist or anything
else, it's still clear that youhave to profess with your mouth
and believe in your heart thatChrist is Lord to be saved.
So you know, that's the littleside note amongst evangelicals,
but with Jehovah's Witnesses,that's a whole other ballgame.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
Mm-hmm.
So let's read what I have onthe—just a quick background on
Jehovah's Witnesses.
Okay, I have on the.
Just a quick background onJehovah's Witnesses.
Okay, so it was founded in the1870s by Charles Taze Russell in
Pennsylvania.
Can we just acknowledge thatthere's-.
I haven't even got into it.

(16:56):
We're already acknowledgingsomething.

Speaker 2 (16:57):
Well, there's some weird things about the 1800s,
because we have Mormonism, JWsand dispensationalists all pop
up in the 1800s in America.
Hmm.

Speaker 1 (17:17):
It was originally known as the Bible Student
Movement.
In 1931, under the leadershipof Joseph Franklin Rutherford,
the group adopted the nameJehovah's Witnesses to
distinguish themselves fromother Bible student groups.
Their official legalorganization is the Watchtower

(17:40):
Bible and Track Society.
They are known for door-to-doorevangelism, literature
distribution like the book, theWatchtower and Awake magazines
and strict adherence toorganizational teachings.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
In that I would like to make the note that when they
say that, they're saying thatJehovah Witnesses are only
allowed to source from JehovahWitness approved documentation,
Meaning they can't use Google tojust Google whatever.

(18:18):
They have to go to the JWorgwebsite or other approved
websites to do research and toprep.

Speaker 1 (18:27):
So I got all my information from Google, so none
of my sources are JW approved.

Speaker 2 (18:36):
They're not approved by the, whatever they're called,
the eight dudes who oversee theWatchtower.
I don't remember what they'recalled.

Speaker 1 (18:44):
Superman, wonder Woman, martian Manhunter, dudes
who oversee the watchtower.
I don't remember who they, whatthey're called superman, wonder
woman.
Yeah, martian man hunter.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
It's like the slaves of something I don't.
I can't remember what they callthemselves.
It's the leadership forjehovah's witness.

Speaker 1 (18:57):
It says uh, I thought I had the name here in my notes
.
Maybe I do do later on.

Speaker 2 (19:03):
They call themselves, they give themselves a name,
but they're the leadership forthe overall Jehovah's Witness
Church and they're the ones whodecide what curriculum gets to
be used.
They're the ones who publishthe Watchtower tracks all of it.

Speaker 1 (19:22):
So, talking about their literature, what they read
from their bible it's like wetalked about before is the new
world translation, and it wasproduced by anonymous watchtower
translators.
Certain passages are rewordedto support jw doctrine, like
john 1.1, which for them readsthe word was a God instead of

(19:47):
the word was God.
So it's like we've talked aboutthat too.
It's just like you can't warpGod's word Like just like strike
one right there you knowCorrect.

Speaker 2 (19:57):
But the argument is is that their translation is the
only true translation?
All the other ones have beencorrupted, or?

Speaker 1 (20:06):
altered.
But like you said earlier whentalking to that guy that you
used to work with, it's likehere's all the other ones.

Speaker 2 (20:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:15):
And then these are all say the same thing, except
for yours.

Speaker 2 (20:19):
Yeah, what was the name of the founder again?

Speaker 1 (20:22):
Charles Taze Russell.

Speaker 2 (20:27):
I listened to a lecture onJehovah's Witnesses and one of
the things that was brought upis that Charles Taze Russell.
I'll just read this AI overviewreal quick.
It kind of sums it up.
You know, In a libel caseagainst a Canadian pastor named

(20:51):
Reverend JJ Ross, Charles TazeRussell was questioned about his
knowledge of Greek.
So basically, JJ Ross said somethings about Charles Taze
Russell.
Basically, JJ Ross said somethings about Charles Taze
Russell.
Charles Taze Russell broughthim to court about it for you

(21:12):
know, whatever.
But then he in that incross-examination, Russell was
asked if he knew the Greek andhe said yes, I do greek.
And he said yes, I do.
And then they started bringingthe greek to him, to him and

(21:32):
asked him to tell them whichletters they were.
And then he startedbacktracking to.
Ultimately it led to he flatout said in court and it was
documented he does not know thegreek, but his translation, he
does not know the Greek, but histranslation alters from all
other translations and theauthority behind it was that he
knows the Greek better thaneverybody else.

Speaker 1 (21:52):
And talking about this is it's.
You know we talked about theBible for what they read, for
Jehovah's Witnesses and forChristianity or Protestants.
It's widely acceptedtranslations King James Version,
esv, niv, translated bycommittees of scholars from
original Hebrew, aramaic andGreek manuscripts.

Speaker 2 (22:15):
Yeah, I've got the PDF file with the transcription
right here, so I'm just going toread it to you.
Okay, this is from the courtcase.
Attorney Stanton, do you knowthe Greek alphabet?
Russell?
Oh yes, oh yeah, attorney, canyou tell me the correct letters
if you see them, russell, someof them.

(22:36):
I might make a mistake on someof them.
Attorney, would you tell me thenames of those on the top page
of 447?
I have got here from Wellcottand Hort Greek New Testament.
So a New Testament.
That's strictly in the originalGreek.
It's not a translation.

Speaker 1 (22:57):
And what does it say?

Speaker 2 (22:58):
Russell.
Well, I don't know, attorney,you can't tell what those
letters are.
Look at them and see if youknow.
Attorney, you can't tell whatthose letters are.
Look at them and see if youknow, russell.
My way.
Attorney Stan interrupts herewith are you familiar with the

(23:19):
Greek language, russell?
No, so there you go.

Speaker 1 (23:23):
Right, like what?
What you're telling me isyou're reading and putting your
faith into somebody who isclaiming that they translated
the original manuscripts, theoriginal translation, the Greek
translation of the Bible, andsaid I found a new translation.
Then says I don't know Greek.

Speaker 2 (23:42):
Yeah, and this took place on March 17th 1913.
So you can I mean I pulled itup by doing a quick Google
search Right here's a PDF filethat gives you some info from
the court case.

Speaker 1 (23:58):
So you know it's Just keep that in your back pocket,
ready for the next Jehovah'sWitness you run into.

Speaker 2 (24:04):
Yeah, just print it off and hand it out to them when
they hand you the Watchtower.

Speaker 1 (24:09):
This is my.
What are they called Watchtowerpamphlet?
No, this is my pamphlet I'mhanding out for my Lord and
Savior, jesus Christ.
This is just a court casedocument.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:21):
Exactly, you lose Jack, oh man.
Okay, so what else do you wantto?

Speaker 1 (24:28):
talk about their interpretation is a centralized
authority.
The governing body, currentlylocated in Warwick, new York,
decides official doctrine andinterpretation.
Personal interpretation, apartfrom Watchtower teaching, is
discouraged.

Speaker 2 (24:46):
Come on, don't be crazy, don't be crazy.

Speaker 1 (24:53):
But for real, though it's crazy.
Again, it's this.
We talked about it before.
But this cult mentality ofdon't diverge at all, Don't come
to your understanding of it,Don't study it, Just believe
what we tell you yep, it'sreally.

Speaker 2 (25:06):
This is my new uh cult button.

Speaker 1 (25:08):
Oh yeah, because they're busting down doors?
Oh, because they're drinkingthe kool-aid oh yeah, it's the
kool-aid man.

Speaker 2 (25:16):
oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, anyways, yeah.
Does it say on there because I,because we were talking about
that a minute ago the counciland their name?
No, it doesn't give the name,that, it's just the governing
body.

Speaker 1 (25:33):
Governing body.
If you know the name of whatthe governing body of the of the
Jehovah's Witnesses are, let usknow in the comments.
I'm going to know.
They got to.
Let us know in the comments.
I'm gonna.
I'm gonna find out.
They gotta let us know in thecomments no, I must know, is it
something awesome, like anawesome sounding name like a

(25:53):
rock star?
No, like group name.
What is it?
It?

Speaker 2 (25:56):
doesn't?
Uh, it has all the names.
There's an ai search that givesall the names of the governing
body.
Oh, that's funny what?

Speaker 1 (26:07):
It gives each name of oh, the actual, current
governing body, the actual,current governing body.
One of them's name is David.

Speaker 2 (26:16):
David Splane.
David Splane, Is it really?
I mean according to that.

Speaker 1 (26:21):
Google search.
Oh no, I was literally justthrowing something out there
making a guess.

Speaker 2 (26:26):
No, you got it.

Speaker 1 (26:28):
There you go, David, I leveled up.
And then, of course, forChristianity.
Guided by the Holy Spirit, anybeliever can study and
understand Scripture without ahuman governing body.
That's Christianity, kind ofhow we are allowed to interpret.

Speaker 2 (26:48):
Yeah, the guy that I was listening to.
He had a lot of really goodinformation, but he brought
forth that the Jehovah's Witnessorganization put out an article
basically saying that theVatican says that they're the
only authority that cantranslate scripture, and they

(27:08):
put out an article saying anyonecan, and then within I think it
was like 15 years, they put outthat only Jehovah's Witnesses,
the leadership of Jehovah'sWitnesses, can translate
scripture.
So they literally like withinyou know two decades, they they

(27:30):
go from saying like no one hassupreme authority over God's
word to we have supremeauthority over God's word when
it comes to translation.
Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Speaker 1 (27:42):
It's like uh, what is it Netflix saying?
Saying, oh yeah, you can shareyour passwords to when it wasn't
working out for them.
Yeah, yeah, you can't shareyour passwords anymore not
anymore.

Speaker 2 (27:53):
Well, you can share it, it's just they won't be able
to.
They'll shut it down.

Speaker 1 (27:57):
You can't have multiple locations but it was
crazy because how much theypushed for share your passwords,
we don't care, do it.
We're not a dictatorship here.
You know they they reallypushed it and like almost pretty
much said we'll never make younot share your passwords.
Yeah to when it becameaffecting their money.
Yeah, for real it.

(28:18):
Now you're not allowed to sharepasswords, going to the extent
of punishing you if you shareyour passwords.

Speaker 2 (28:32):
It's the same way where it's like you can do what
you want until it impacts whatwe're doing.
Yeah, that PDF that I read fromit comes from TAMinistriesnet,
just in case anybody wants toknow.
But if you I mean literally ifyou type in Jehovah's Witness
court case like it, you shouldfind plenty.

Speaker 1 (28:52):
So for those who want to know more, so final
authority on scripture,watchtower publications and
governing bodies' rulings areconsidered the definitive
explanation of Scripture.
Members are expected to alignwith these interpretations,
period, and then withChristianity.

(29:14):
The Bible is the ultimate andonly infallible authority for
faith and practice.
Church leaders may teach andguide, but their authority is
under scripture, which I agreewith that.
I hope so, because that's whatwe do as Christians.

Speaker 2 (29:29):
That's what we do as evangelical, non-denominational
Well, I guess denominations doit.
What am I looking for?
Protestant?
That's what we believe asProtestants.

Speaker 1 (29:41):
There you go yeah, boy.
I just feel offended with mycurrent voice state every time
you press that button.
Do it lady.
I don't know if I should beoffended or laugh.
Just laugh.
If I laugh, I'll cough.
Do it lady.
Got him, got me.

Speaker 2 (30:02):
Oh man.

Speaker 1 (30:04):
You want to talk about views on God and the
Trinity.

Speaker 2 (30:08):
Yeah, yeah, because they don't believe in the
Trinity, they don't YepJehovah's Witness are.

Speaker 1 (30:13):
I don't know what it's called so the trinity being
god the father, god the father,god the son and god the holy
spirit well, the trinity beinggod, three persons, one being
right.

Speaker 2 (30:29):
So yeah, the father, holy Spirit are three individual
persons, all part of that, areall part of one being, which is
God.

Speaker 1 (30:38):
Right.
So their views on God.
Jehovah is the one true God.
The concept of the Trinity isrejected as unbiblical for
Jehovah's Witnesses, unbiblicalFor Christianity Protestant.
One God in three persons,father, son and Holy Spirit,
co-equal and co-eternal, whichis that's the Trinity, that is

(31:00):
our Trinity, yes, the trueTrinity.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
The true Trinity, that's the Trinity belief,
because it's good to point outthat the Mormons don't believe
in the Trinity.
They believe that God theFather, god the Son, god the
Holy Spirit are three separateentities, three separate beings
and persons, that God the Father, god the Son, god the Holy
Spirit are three separateentities, three separate beings
and persons.
And Jehovah's Witnesses believethat God the Father is the only

(31:27):
God and Jesus is his only sonor his first son, but not part
of him, not part of him.
Not part of him, not God Lesserthan him.
They also believe that JesusChrist, the man, died and did
not come back to life.

Speaker 1 (31:44):
So Jesus is the first .
This is what Jehovah'sWitnesses believe.
Yeah, the first creation.
Jesus is the first creation ofJehovah, originally Michael the
archangel, who became human.
He is not eternal and he is notalmighty God.
I don't believe that.
That's what the Mormons, that'swhat, no, the Jehovah's
Witnesses believe.

(32:04):
That's right.
You said Mormon Dang.
That was like a month ago.

Speaker 2 (32:08):
Yeah, do you know where they get that Biblically?

Speaker 1 (32:11):
Yeah, Jesus is the archangel.
I'll assume some mistranslation.

Speaker 2 (32:16):
Revelations 1115.
Are you ready?
I'm going to go to Revelations1115.

Speaker 1 (32:23):
Oh, this is where they get that from.
Okay go ahead.

Speaker 2 (32:26):
This is one of their verses for it and this is what
they use on their website totalk about Jesus.
And so it says and the seventhangel sounded, and there were
great voices in heaven sayingthe kingdom of this world are
become the kingdoms of our Lordand of his Christ, and he shall

(32:47):
reign over and he shall reignever and ever.
I think in that verse.
Am I wrong Somewhere in thatverse?
I think the idea of like the,and he sounds like an arcane, or
maybe I'm looking at the wrongthing.
Yeah, this, this portion wasJesus is the king of God's

(33:07):
kingdom.
Okay, so nevermind, that's awhole other thing.
I guess we'll talk about thatlater, but the whole Jesus came
back in 1914.

Speaker 1 (33:17):
What Did you not?
I'm just hyping up the okay.
So, while you look for that,the uh, for for what we believe
jesus is, we can't.
I'm sure we've gone over it athousand times and a half, but
let's do it again.
Okay, jesus is god, the soneternal, uncreated co-equal with

(33:38):
the father and the spirit.
He took on human flesh throughin.
That sounds weird.
It says he took on human fleshthrough the re, the incarnation.
Now I'm thinking reincarnation.
Now I'm thinking ofreincarnation.
Yeah, sorry, you want to talkabout the Holy Spirit, though.

(33:58):
How they view the Holy Spirit.
Let's do it.
The Holy Spirit is Jehovah'simpersonal, active force used to
accomplish His will, not aperson Is what they believe.
So, again, it's just like Goddid it, commanded it.
So God did it, I guess.
But that's the Holy Spirit ofGod.

(34:19):
It's like they see the HolySpirit as an action.
Yeah, it's odd, but for us theHoly Spirit is the third person
of the Trinity, personal, divineand active in creation,
conviction and empowerment.

Speaker 2 (34:32):
Okay conviction and empowerment.
Okay, so the verse that theyhave cited for, basically that
the Trinity is not biblical, isJohn 14, 28 is on their website
and it says so.
That verse this is the articlefrom their website but it says
you heard that I said to you Iam going away and I'm coming

(34:55):
back to you.
If you loved me, you wouldrejoice that I am going to the
Father, for the Father isgreater than I am.
So that is the.
That's what they use to showthat like there's only one God,
and it's Jehovah, and Jesus ishis son, a lesser being, because

(35:18):
Jesus says that the Father isgreater than he is.
So that's their argument for it.
But they have to mistranslateJohn 1-1.

Speaker 1 (35:29):
To make it make sense .
To make it make sense Becausewe are misunderstanding another
verse.
Yeah, or they are.
It would be a contradictionbecause so they take one thing,
keep it, but then have to changeanother thing to justify their
explanation of a verse.

Speaker 2 (35:45):
well, let me pull up john 14, 28 and just a regular
translation.
But once again, john 1, 1.1 inthe ESV says In the beginning
was the Word and the Word waswith God and the Word was God.
Verse 2, he was in thebeginning with God.
Verse 3, in Him all things werecreated and through Him all

(36:08):
things were made, and withoutHim was not anything made that
was made.
So those are the first threeverses of the chapter one of the
book of John.
So the King James translates1428, john, 1428.
You have heard how I said untoyou I go away and come again

(36:30):
unto you.
If you loved me, you wouldrejoice, because I said I go
unto the father, for my fatheris greater than I, and now I
have told you, before it come topass, that when it comes to
pass, you might believe I justread 29 as well, but I mean no

(36:51):
mistranslation there.
Like it, it reads the same.

Speaker 1 (36:55):
Right.

Speaker 2 (36:57):
It's just misinterpreted.
But in John 1, it's different.
You know, for the Jehovah'sWitness, because any verse that
would read that Jesus and Godare the same or one, has to be
altered.
It can't be the same, one hasto be altered.
It can't be the same.

(37:18):
And that's the big thing withthe Mormons is they believe that
Jesus is God.
They believe that God, theFather, is God.
They believe that God, the HolySpirit, is God, but they
believe they're three separategods, believe they're three

(37:40):
separate gods, uh, and theyco-rule and and oversee all of
creation in a union, a triuneunion.
But they're not.
They're three separate beings,entities.
So you know, once again, itcomes back around to that like,
if you're not, if you don't holdto the Trinity, you have to
wrestle with verses like John 1and verses, and then like
chapter 40 in the book of Isaiah, where God talks about there is

(38:03):
no other God besides me.
There's only one God andthere's none before me, there's
none after me.
I know of no other God is whathe says.
I'm paraphrasing, but that'sessentially what it says there's
no other God.

Speaker 1 (38:18):
And people are translating it or
misinterpreting that, because weunderstand God being three in
one and so he is referring tohimself as God in different, as
God, the son God, the father God, the Holy Spirit.
God as God, the Son God, theFather God, the Holy Spirit,

(38:38):
where these other people areinterpreting it as oh, there's
just one God and then the HolySpirit and Jesus are separate
from that.

Speaker 2 (38:43):
Yeah, I would, because here's what I would say
Once again these, the Mormonsand the Jehovah's Witness, both
rose, the ideologies rose in the19th century, and that is

(39:07):
almost 2,000 years removed fromChrist.
So for almost 2,000 years, thechurch has held the Trinity
belief of God, god the Father,god the Son, god the Holy Spirit
, three persons in one entity.
So, and then somewhere, andthen somewhere, you know, a

(39:30):
hundred years ago to 200 yearsago, these guys came out and
said nope, it's this way,actually, though everyone has
mistranslated the Bible up untilthis point, and now we're going
to reveal the truth and havecome up with things that are not
Trinity doctrine.

Speaker 1 (39:50):
Right, and it's funny that you say that.
Like you said earlier, in the1800s, several different cults
have come out and said verysimilar things, but wrong things
yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:02):
Yeah, and I mean these are modern, these are
what's in our time, and it seemslike they've just always been
around because they have.
I mean, it's been 100 years to200 years since these things
have grown in popularity.

Speaker 1 (40:16):
Wait, you're telling me, the world is not only 100
years old?

Speaker 2 (40:18):
Yeah, but sorry, I just kicked his foot.
Oh, but I think about Paul wasalready dealing with cults in
the first century and peoplethat were presenting a different
Jesus and a different gospel.
You can go to Galatians.
He's combating these guys thatare bringing a different gospel

(40:43):
message and he says if, even ifwe, the apostles, or an angel
from heaven brings you adifferent gospel, let them be
accursed.
So that's like how serious heis, like there's only one gospel
, there's only one Jesus.

(41:04):
If anyone adds or changes orbrings a different version to
you, let them be accursed.
And so it's like now, let's.
That happened in the firstcentury, when all the apostles
were still around.
You know, the eyewitnesses werestill there and they're already

(41:26):
dealing with people trying totake Jesus and use him for their
own political, for their ownpolitical mystical purposes.
Right, and the church has dealtwith it throughout all history.
Right, there's been differentcults, there's been different
apostate practices andideologies.

(41:47):
And here we are and we'rethinking like oh my goodness,
jehovah's Witness and Mormons,it's going to be the end of the
world.
These guys are so crazy andit's insane.
And this, that and Mormons,it's going to be the end of the
world.
These guys are so crazy andit's insane, and this, that and
the other was like.
You know what?
There's been a great number ofJesuses that have popped up
throughout history and they'verisen and they've fallen, but

(42:07):
the only true Jesus has remainedthroughout history.
When you say risen.
They risen in popularity, notfrom the grave.
Yeah, in popularity, differentthings.
It's kind of like what thePharisee, gamaliel, says in the
book of Acts when they'remeeting, like all the Pharisees
and Sadducees and the priests,they're all meeting together to

(42:30):
talk about this.
Like what should they do withJohn and Peter?
This, like how, what shouldthey do with the?
With, uh, john and Peter,because they were preaching
Jesus in the temple and theyhealed a man and they were like
don't talk about this Jesus.
And they're like we need tobeat him up, we need to get
ahead of this before it gets outof control.
And Gamaliel basically sayslike hey, there's been this guy

(42:52):
that he claimed to be theMessiah.
He rose up in popularity, hegained a following and then he
fell off and all of hisfollowers left.
And then another guy did it andand he he gives a couple of
examples.
But he then he says like ifthis Jesus don't get involved,
because if this Jesus or thisMessiah is a false one, he will

(43:17):
fail, he will fall apart and hisfollowing will die out, just
like the other ones.
But if this is from God, don'tfight it, because then you'll
find yourselves fighting againstGod is basically how he puts it
.
Yeah, and that's how it's been.
I mean, look at us, yeah, andthat's how it's been.
I mean, look at us,christianity's still growing and

(43:43):
it's 2,000 years removed fromthe event of the death and the
resurrection of Jesus Christ.
And I think that some peopleallow the fear of the
secularization of America andthe West.
They're like, oh no,christianity's dying, but it's
not.
Christianity is growing and theWord of God's like oh no,
christianity is dying, but it'snot.
Christianity is growing and theword of God is being made known
throughout the world.
And the world can't do anythingabout Jesus.

(44:05):
They can't get rid of him, theycan't beat him or destroy him.
And they have tried.
And they have tried.
And they're trying because look, we're talking about Jehovah's
Witnesses.
They are distorting the truejesus.

Speaker 1 (44:17):
And let's talk about that.
Okay, because you're right.
They are like, specifically,jesus, um, the thing that is the
focal point of our faith, andif it didn't happen, then
there's no reason for what we do.
Yeah and it.
Yeah, we believe in God.
It's not the true God, becauseif you're warping what is being

(44:41):
said about him and then you takethe important thing and lessen
it, it's falsified, it's no good.
Yeah, and they believe that.
They believe, for Jehovah'sWitnesses, that Jesus was a
created spirit who became aperfect man after his death,
returned to heaven as a spiritcreature Correct.

(45:04):
He died on a wooden stake, nota cross, as a ransom sacrifice
to pay for Adam's sin and openthe way for obedient humans to
have eternal life.

Speaker 2 (45:16):
And also I'd like to point out that they didn't
always believe in the stakething.
That changed over time.

Speaker 1 (45:20):
That changed over time.
So how good is what you believeif you have to change it to
finally make it make sense?
Correct For the resurrection?
He was raised as a spiritcreature.
His physical body was notresurrected.
God disposed of his physicalbody.
What the heck, dude?
And for us, obviously, uh.

(45:43):
Fully god and fully man.
The eternal word made flesh,died on the cross as a
substitutionary sacrifice to payfor the sins of all humanity.
Bodily resurrection, jesus rosein the same body that was
crucified, transformed andglorified.

Speaker 2 (46:00):
Physically rose and is physically at the right hand
of the Father and willphysically return on the final
day.
That's what Christians believe.
He is a part of the triune God.
He is the son being of thetriune God and he's the
manifestation of the one andonly God.
He is the son being of thetriune God and he's the
manifestation of the one andonly God.
And to me God intentionallyreveals himself as a trinity God

(46:28):
, three persons in one entity,because you get to see the
beautiful imagery of Christbeing the only begotten son of
the father.
You have that father and sonrelationship.
It shows that personability ofgod.
He's a personal god and itshows the like jesus coming as

(46:49):
the manifestation of god andputting on the term the son.
He's the ambassador of hisfather, he represents his father
.
And that's why you see languagein the book of John throughout
where he says I only come to dothe will of my father, I'm only
doing your will.
And even in the garden, whenhe's praying and he's saying

(47:10):
Lord, if it be, take this yokefrom me.
But not my will be done, butyours.
You see all this and so that'sto me.
That's the beauty of theimagery of that son and father.
Aspect of the Trinity is God'smanifestation of himself, is the

(47:30):
ambassador proclaiming you know, the king?
Like, hey, I am the physicalrepresentation of the one and
only God.
And then the spirit of God,being the God with like God
comes into our hearts and ispresent in our everyday lives

(47:50):
and he is there as the personalrebuker and trainer of us in our
faith.
That's the personal aspect ofGod, you know.
So it's like all parts of theTrinity are essential and they
each represent God in a verypersonal and intimate way.
So I think it's cool, but Ialso enjoy the reality of like.

(48:13):
God's so big that he gives,kind of he gives.
He's bigger than the.
He gives out truth.
Yeah, he is bigger than thebook.
He gives us truth, but he alsopresents it in a way to where we
have to wrestle with it.
We have to meditate and pray onhis word and seek the deeper

(48:35):
meaning that can only be foundin his presence.

Speaker 1 (48:38):
Because, let's be honest, I've always thought
about it like this right, yeah,what would feel better?
That if something was justgiven to you, or if something
was earned, like, you worked forit and you got it?
Well, we got to be careful.
I'm talking about, in the sense, like, not your person, not
your salvation.
I'm talking about, just in ageneral sense, your

(49:00):
understanding, yourunderstanding.
But what I'm talking about is,like you go out and you plant
some seeds, yeah, and it growssome tomatoes.
Would those tomatoes tastebetter because, like, if
somebody gave it to you, likesomebody just handed you a
tomato, yeah, or would thattomato taste better because you

(49:21):
worked hard to create that andyou ate it yourself?
My point being is earningsomething versus a handout you
earning that thing, there's morevalue to it, there's more value
to it.
I see what you're trying to say, yeah.
So it's the same way as, likeyou working, or you accepting

(49:41):
Christ, versus even though it isfreely given, of course, you
just have to accept it Versus.
Like you just, yeah, youautomatically go to heaven.
Yeah, I would.

Speaker 2 (49:57):
I would word it differently because, like the
understanding of God, it's justthat like, think about okay,
think about with IT, right?
If you sat in a crash course for, let's just say, three days,
you've never done any IT work inthe past, you're brand new to
computers.
You're given a crash courseover three days and then thrown

(50:21):
in.
You know some of theterminology, you have a basic
understanding of the operatingsystem, but you don't truly know
it until you get in there withyour hands and you get the
understanding of how it allworks, right, yeah, so that's
what I would say is withChristianity, with being a

(50:43):
believer and coming to know God,being introduced to God, you
have a basic understanding, youget the basic principles and
it's revealed to you.
But there's deeperunderstanding of who God is,
because God's an infinite God.
There's more to know, and theonly way to understand and to
know that is to dive deeper intoGod and gain a deeper

(51:08):
understanding of who he is.
It means more.
It means more because you spendmore time in it.
That's what sanctification isis it's spending more time in
God and him revealing to youdeeper truths about him.

Speaker 1 (51:25):
So, yeah, you're right, so you could have your.
You know your.
Jesus loves me.
Level of salvation you can besaved, and all you ever know is
the song Jesus loves me.
Level of salvation you can besaved and all you ever know is
the song Jesus loves me.
But you would know so much moreand get so much more out of it
if you dive deeper, yes, andhave a deeper understanding and

(51:47):
a closer relationship with God.

Speaker 2 (51:49):
Yes, that's why so many I mean so many Protestants,
and I mean even Catholics andOrthodox like they have so many
different guys that they didn'twrite scripture, but they revere
them and respect their writingsand the teachings that they
gave throughout history.
Because of their pressing intoGod God, they spend so much time

(52:18):
in sanctification, getting toknow God, getting a deeper
understanding of who God is, andjust writing their revelations
down.
It helps other people get intoGod's Word and dig deeper, and
so that's what we are called todo as believers, as the church
is to come together and buildone another up in the faith.
And by building one another upin the faith, it's by getting to
know God more, pressing in andfinding out who he is and what

(52:42):
he says about himself, not whatthe predetermined understandings
of God by the watchtowerorganization you know.
So it's yeah, I would say it'sharder to have a personal
relationship with God as aJehovah's witness, because you

(53:06):
have to believe what theJehovah's witness, watchtower or
like, dictates.
If they ever want to changeanything, that means you have to
change as well.

Speaker 1 (53:20):
So yeah, yeah, I came to this understanding, but the
rule set changed, so I have tochange, correct what I believe.

Speaker 2 (53:28):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:33):
Yeah.
You want to talk aboutsalvation, do, do I?
Let's talk about salvation.

Speaker 2 (53:40):
This is what jehovah's witnesses believe
about salvation okay, faith injesus plus obedience to
watchtower teachings, plus works, oh yeah like the only way for
you to be saved is if you abideby what we say and go do what we

(54:00):
tell you to do and yeah, whatis?
Uh, they have a term for it.
I can't remember what it'scalled, but uh, publishers,
that's what?
So jehovah's witnesses that aregoing out and like handing out
watchtower tracks at people'shouses or setting up like
magazine stands.

Speaker 1 (54:16):
Yeah, so door to door preaching, meeting attendance
and moral conduct, it's like acombination of those things
we're talking about, like works.

Speaker 2 (54:26):
So if you don't participate in the church, you
lose your salvation.

Speaker 1 (54:31):
Correct, but that's incorrect.
That's what they believe, butthat is not correct.
Yeah, jehovah's.

Speaker 2 (54:35):
Witness If you what they believe, but that is not
correct.
Yeah, yeah, jehovah's Witness,if you do not put in a minimum I
think it's 10 hours you have toput 10 hours.
It's either a week or a monthof active ministry, being like
door knocking and setting up astand and stuff.
You have to do that stuff andparticipate in all of the
meetings and gatherings and ifyou don't, then you're kicked

(55:04):
out of the organization andtherefore you have lost your
salvation.
According to Jehovah's Witness,the Bible says that salvation is
not a losable thing.

Speaker 1 (55:12):
Like you, can't lose it Once saved, always saved,
always saved I mean, I wouldargue with that.

Speaker 2 (55:19):
I'm not a baptist, but but the idea is, like you
can't be like.
I believe in jesus and he's theonly way for me to be forgiven
of my sins.
To the next day I still believeall that, but now I'm not saved
anymore because I didn't dothis so I've lost it.

(55:40):
That's the argument is that ifyou are, if you're of the
understanding that Christ haspaid the price for you to be
saved and you believe that andyou abide in that, that the only
way to be saved is throughChrist, by faith, then by his
grace, through faith, thenyou're saved because you believe

(56:01):
that and you hold onto it.
So you can't lose yoursalvation.
But at the same time, I stillbelieve that apostasy is a real
thing.
So I think that people canwillingly choose to reject
Christ, I see and turn away fromhim, but that's not losing your
salvation.

Speaker 1 (56:19):
No, that's you declining your salvation.

Speaker 2 (56:20):
Yeah, that's you rejecting it and walking away.

Speaker 1 (56:24):
So who in Jehovah's Witnesses is saved?
Hypothetical question.
I'm about to tell you.

Speaker 2 (56:31):
It depends on what you mean by saved, because
there's two tiers.

Speaker 1 (56:33):
It depends on what you mean by save, because
there's two tiers Mm-hmm.
So only 144,000 anointed go toheaven, the spiritual realm
where God resides, their heaven.

Speaker 2 (56:45):
Their heaven Only 144,000.

Speaker 1 (56:48):
Mm-hmm.
The rest of faithful believerswill live forever on a paradise
earth.

Speaker 2 (56:53):
Which sounds like a sci-fi thing.

Speaker 1 (56:55):
It does Paradise earth.
Okay, live forever on aparadise earth, which sounds
like a sci-fi thing.
It does earth.
Or it's okay, like, imagine ifyou were, you know you, you did
all your works.
Because you got to do all theseworks right.
And it's like you know, yeah, Igot my my second place prize,
you know what I mean my runnerup prize.
Yeah, I get, I get, you know,paradise earth, but I wanted to

(57:16):
be in heaven.
Like, yeah, it kind of it setsitself up for like this whole,
like like what am I trying tosay?
This whole like anger about it.
You know what I mean.
When it comes to your faith,it's like I worked hard to be
part of that 144 000, but I'mnot part of that number, so I'm
just in paradise dude.

Speaker 2 (57:36):
It's kind of like.
It kind of sounds like thetitle to like a post-apocalyptic
, like sci-fi fantasy, likeescape from paradise earth.
Escape from paradise earth.
But yeah, no, I think that it.
What it does is it promotes andmaintains the premise of

(58:01):
hierarchy.

Speaker 1 (58:03):
Work harder and maybe you can earn this thing.

Speaker 2 (58:05):
Well, yeah, I mean well, but they're not even at
that point anymore.
It's an unattainable goal now,but it solidifies the idea of
there's the leadership andthere's everybody else, the
anointed and the lessors or thesaved, the general population,
right.
So it creates a caste systemwithin Jehovah's Witness.

(58:27):
There's nothing you can do tobe anointed there's only 144,000
of them and they're alreadypicked.
But you can try and get toparadise earth by doing these
things submitting to theauthority of Jehovah and the
anointed class and doing theworks that they tell you to do,

(58:51):
the works that they tell you todo.
So that's what it does.
Is it truly is a cult, becauseit forces people to get into the
mindset of I'm a lesser andthere's a higher above me in
authority and they have a finalsay in my life.
Right, like God's not the onlyone who determines my outcome.

(59:12):
They also get to determine.

Speaker 1 (59:14):
A person tells me how I'm supposed to do my thing.

Speaker 2 (59:17):
And they get to tell me if I'm saved or not.
Yeah, that's the thing is, onlyGod determines who comes into
his kingdom.
Now he's extended that gracethrough Jesus, giving an
opportunity, as first Timothysays, for all to be saved.
He extends it but it stilldoesn't change the reality of

(59:38):
God makes the way and God closesthe door Right and he does not
open it unless he decides hewants to open it.
So Jesus gives that parable ofthe different women who had
their lanterns wicked and theones who didn't, the ones who,

(59:58):
and as the noble, walked throughthe city streets.
The women who had theirlanterns wicked were ready and
they followed him and they wentinto the bride feastal party,
and then the door was shut.
And the women who didn't havetheir lanterns wicked and were
delayed came to the door but itwas shut.
It was not opened to them.

(01:00:19):
So it's that it's God.
God determines the way, heextends it to all mankind in
hopes that all will be saved,but ultimately he gets to decide
when it's opened and shut, notsome council that oversees the
doctrine.

Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
Right, and let's talk about hell.
Hell For Jehovah's Witnesses.
No eternal conscious tormentfor them.
The wicked will be annihilatedand cease to exist.
That's what they believe andI'll be honest, if I was a
sinner going to hell, thatactually sounds pretty great,

(01:01:00):
because that means that you justare done.
That's it.
Yeah, like it's not, like it'sjust talking to you.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah, and there's norepercussions for decline.
God, really, it's just likethat's it.
I'm done.
Cease to exist, no pain, notorment.

(01:01:20):
Yeah, it actually sounds likenot a terrible runner-up prize,
almost.
You know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:01:27):
It's easy to say that , though, because I wrestle with
this right.
Like there's kind of within theProtestant and Catholic and
Orthodox, like there's kind ofthree, the protestant and
catholic and orthodox.
Like there's kind of threedifferent views of hell that
float around.
They each have their ownposition or whatever, but one of
them is that, like it's thetotal destruction of body and

(01:01:49):
spirit.
And so, you know, we like topromote the idea of like, oh, I
cease to exist, that's not thatbad, that's better than burning
eternally, you know.
But at the same time, it's likeyeah, but all we've known is
existence, mm-hmm, we don't knowwhat non-existence is,

(01:02:10):
non-existence is.
And when you I mean if you startgoing down the philosophical
rabbit hole, it's like well,would it be better to be alive
spiritually and burning in hellthan to not spiritually be alive
at all?
You know, it's kind of themindset of like, well, you know

(01:02:32):
it sucks to be crippled, butwouldn't it be better to be
crippled and alive than dead?
Yeah, you know, you, just it'shard to, it's hard to really
understand, because we justdon't really have a true
understanding, little bit ofevidence for it.

(01:02:57):
Because Jesus tells people tofear God only because God is the
only person who can destroyboth body and spirit, and so
it's like, well, what does thatmean?
He can destroy your body andyour spirit Like they can cease
to exist, you know?
So, yeah, it's just, it's amind-boggling thing, but I will
say that Jesus paints hell as aplace that is Hold on.

Speaker 1 (01:03:23):
Let me do my thing real quick, because it does kind
of cover that.
So, going back to salvation,but for Christianity, salvation
is by grace alone, through faithalone in Christ alone.
Works are the fruit, not thebasis of salvation.
Correct, all who repent andbelieve in Jesus as Lord and
Savior will have eternal lifewith God.

(01:03:45):
Hell for them or hell for us?
Yeah, eternal, consciousseparation from God for
unbelievers.
So now what you were saying, Isometimes think and wonder it
might not really be hellfire andit might be something worse,
which is that separation fromGod.

Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:07):
That eternal pain of being separated from what
literally gave us life and whatkeeps us going.

Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
And you know, hell, like.
In the Bible, hell is describedas just, it's outside of the
anointing of God, it's utterdarkness, but at the same time
it's also a lake of fire.
You know, so like there's thesedifferent ways that it's
described, but if you, theconsistency that can be drawn is

(01:04:40):
it's the absence of god'spresence.
We were creatures that werecreated to be in the presence of
god and even though you know wedon't see God clearly right now
in creation, we still seeaspects of God.
Because of creation.

(01:05:03):
Hell is a place that you gowhere there is nothing about the
presence of God around you.
You are totally cut off.
So everything that we have andwe hold on to in creation that
is good comes from God, meaningthose things will not be around.
And I think the reason thatit's hell is because we were

(01:05:25):
created.
God created us to be beingsthat are physical and spiritual,
that worship a spiritual,infinite god.
And when we are totally cut offfrom that opportunity, I mean
it's total, bleak, darkawfulness.

(01:05:47):
And you know we're so luckyright now here on earth.
I mean sin is in the world andit's corrupting people, but
everyone on earth, even inopposition of God, they're so
lucky right now?
Yeah, cause they're stillbreathing air.

Speaker 1 (01:06:05):
They still have the opportunity to choose Christ to
choose Christ.

Speaker 2 (01:06:10):
But I'm just saying, think about everything in
creation, even if you know yougot a sucky 401k right, or you
don't have a house, or you don'teat every single day because
it's too expensive or whateverit is.
Take all the bad, okay, and justput it on pause for a second.
There's air for you to breathe.

(01:06:31):
Your body can still breathe.
There's gravity for you to beable to, to move.
You know there's still creationaround you the smells, the, the
visuals, the tangibles, likeeverything that that we take for
granted or that we enjoy right,like the saints that serve

(01:06:52):
podcast, like the saints thatserve podcast.
They're all a gift from God,the creator.
Now, when he says that you'llbe taken away from his presence,
you'll be taken away from hiscreation and sent to a place
that's absence of the presenceof God and you won't have any
enjoyment.
There's no enjoyment in hell.

(01:07:13):
I think people try to say like,oh, hell's where all the
sinners are going to go, so it'sgoing to be full and all the
cool guys is going to party anddrink and party for eternity.
Yeah, and you know fire's notall that bad and all that stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:07:26):
Yeah, I can hold my hand over a light lit lighter
yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:07:30):
But everything that is good is a blessing from the
Lord that will be taken away.
And so you know, I think thatthe Jehovah's Witness stance,
their stance, is that, like theydo, to me it seems like they do
a hard thing where they a hardseparation of spirit and

(01:07:52):
physical, and they try to make,like the spiritual is the, is
the top tier, like this is whatyou want to attain a spiritual
body so you can be in heavenwith jehovah, god.
And then there's the middletier, which is the physical and
you know, in the final day orwhatever it's like, it's not as
good as heaven because it's nota spiritual body, but you know

(01:08:15):
it's better than not existing atall.
So you get Paradise, earth, andthat's okay, and then everyone
else just ceases to existbecause you know there's, it's
so, but Come join our religion.

Speaker 1 (01:08:29):
It's a win-win?
No, not really.

Speaker 2 (01:08:32):
No, but that's what I'm saying is they're separating
the spiritual and the physical.
No, not really no, but that'swhat I'm saying is they're
separating the spiritual and thephysical.
And the Bible preaches that inthe final day the spiritual and
physical will come together in awhole union.
Heaven and earth will cometogether as one and will be in
the light of God for alleternity and will eat from the
tree of life.
So you know, there's a bunch ofbeautiful imagery of that of

(01:08:55):
union with God forever, and it'sa spiritual and physical thing,
they're not separated.
So that's the big thing that Iwould say is God is working
towards bringing the union backof the physical and spiritual.
In Jehovah's Witness.

(01:09:18):
They separate them and create atier system and a caste system
in their religion, in their cult, saying that the higher caste
gets a spiritual body and goesto heaven with Jehovah.
The lesser caste system gets togo to paradise, earth in a

(01:09:39):
physical form and stay thereforever.
Wacky, wack-a-deedle.

Speaker 1 (01:09:43):
Mm-hmm, so do you have anything else for the?

Speaker 2 (01:09:47):
old JWs.
I think that there is more tobe said, but I don't think we
have enough time, mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (01:09:56):
So what I would like to say is because I have a
feeling that we are going torevisit Mormonism and Jehovah's
Witness and stuff like that,yeah, we have ample opportunity
to come back to a part two onthis versus series on a lot of
these religions, on a lot ofthese religions, and a lot of
opportunity, too, to get intosome that aren't really like.

(01:10:19):
That can be more classified asa cryptid corner, because
there's just such weird one-offsthat we could talk about.
Maybe we have like a one-offepisode where we talk about
these smaller religions or,sorry, smaller cults that were
around for a short period oftime.

Speaker 2 (01:10:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:10:35):
Yeah, but that's for another time.

Speaker 2 (01:10:39):
Another time.

Speaker 1 (01:10:40):
So In a world where we had more time, where we had
more time, all right, yes,that's all I've got, but that's
not what all I've got.
Do it lady.
It's because I've got a game.

Speaker 2 (01:10:56):
You know, I was actually talking with my brother
on the phone this week abouthow I need to surprise you with
a game, a mini-game but make itsomething to where you just have
no idea, just to make you looklike a silly goofball.

Speaker 1 (01:11:11):
Yeah, but I didn't come up with a game, so Okay,
because I'm surprising you again, because and it's funny that
you say that last week Isurprised John with not one but
two games and it made him lookvery foolish Because he didn't
know any of these DC questions.
I did not.
So I have a game this week.

(01:11:33):
It doesn't really have a goodname or anything like that,
because I threw this togetherreally quick, so really I'm just
going to explain it.
I'm going to throw at you astatement, a fact.
You're going to tell me if thatis truth or Jehovah's Witness.

Speaker 2 (01:11:54):
Alright, we're going to do this.
First, though, Grab the D20.
You got to roll it.
If you can get anything above a12, we'll play the game.

Speaker 1 (01:12:04):
All right, I guess we're not playing this game.
Yeah, no, go ahead.
That's fine.
Hey, this is.
I felt bad, so I'm throwing youa lifeline in the sense of you
should know these, you betterknow.
If you don't know these, you'refired.
All right, so again.
So you're going to tell me ifthis is jehovah's witness or

(01:12:26):
biblical?
All right, that's it.
Jw or biblical, got it?
That's the name of the game,all right?
Okay, jesus is michael, theArchangel in his heavenly
existence.

Speaker 2 (01:12:38):
That is, the JWs.

Speaker 1 (01:12:39):
That is correct Perfection.
This is also kind of a summaryof the episode.
So oh great.
Yeah, it's just like a quickquiz.
That's what this is A quiz,this is a quick quiz.
Okay, jesus returned invisiblyto Earth in 1914 to begin ruling
as king.
No, he did not, he did not comeon don't be crazy.

(01:13:01):
That was based on watchtowerinterpretation of daniel and
matthew come on, don't be crazywhich I think we hinted to talk
about then we never really gotto yeah, we didn't yeah that's
right.
The dead are unconscious untilthe resurrection.
The dead are unconscious untilthe resurrection.

Speaker 2 (01:13:15):
The dead are unconscious until the
resurrection.

Speaker 1 (01:13:18):
Yes, or known as soul sleep.

Speaker 2 (01:13:23):
I think that's up to interpretation.

Speaker 1 (01:13:25):
I got it here as JW.

Speaker 2 (01:13:27):
Oh, okay.
Well, because that's the thingis like, I think some
Protestants Soul sleep is taught, denies conscious existence
after death.
I mean, I don't believe that.
I think that, yeah, there'sconscious.
I think that your consciencedoes go somewhere.

Speaker 1 (01:13:43):
I'm not going to mark you right or wrong on that.
The Holy Spirit is fully God,co-equal and co-eternal with
Father and Son.
That is true.
That is true, or Bible.
That is true.
That is true, or Bible or theBible.
The great crowd of believerswill live forever on a paradise

(01:14:05):
earth.
That is.

Speaker 2 (01:14:07):
Jehovah's Witness.

Speaker 1 (01:14:08):
That is Jehovah's Witness.
Christ's return will be visibleand unmistakable to all.
That is the truth.
That is truth.
Yeah boy, satan was cast toearth in 1914, marking the
beginning of the last days.
Huh, that's JW.

(01:14:30):
That's JW.
Salvation requires faith inJesus, plus active participation
in God's organization.

Speaker 2 (01:14:38):
That is JW.

Speaker 1 (01:14:39):
That is JW.
Only those who partake in thebread and wine at the memorial
are in the new covenant.
That's JW.
That's JW.
Oh yeah, God's kingdom wasestablished in heaven in 1914.

Speaker 2 (01:15:03):
Let me think that's JW.

Speaker 1 (01:15:05):
That's JW.
Jesus was resurrected as aspirit creature, not in a
physical body.
Jw, jw, w.
I need to just say W J-W.
Good works are the evidence ofsaving faith.

Speaker 2 (01:15:22):
I mean Protestants believe that that your fruit
reveals your salvation.
That is correct.
Doesn't determine yoursalvation, but it reveals it,
yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:15:31):
The cross is a pagan symbol.
The cross is a pagan symbol.
Hold on, let me finish it.
The cross is a pagan symbol andshould not be used in worship.

Speaker 2 (01:15:43):
Here's another thing that it's like they're not wrong
, but they are wrong.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
Like, the cross originally wasa torture symbol and it was used
like to show the worst of theworst, but now it is a Christian
symbol because Christ died andresurrected on it.
So it's not a pagan symbol,correct?

Speaker 1 (01:16:07):
Yeah, boy, the Bible should be interpreted only
through God's appointed channelson earth.

Speaker 2 (01:16:14):
Hold on.
Can you reword that?

Speaker 1 (01:16:16):
Yeah, the Bible should be interpreted only
through God's appointed channelson earth.

Speaker 2 (01:16:23):
I'm going to say because it sounds very similar
to what the JWs would say.
So I'm going to say that's JW.

Speaker 1 (01:16:29):
That's JW.
Why are you hung up on that onea little bit.

Speaker 2 (01:16:32):
Because, like interpretation of the Bible, the
Bible's on earth.

Speaker 1 (01:16:38):
Oh, the way it's worded.
Yeah, like it.
No, what it's saying is throughGod's appointed channels that
are on earth.
The channels are on earth.
That's what I'm saying is every, but the way it's worded is
specifically talking about thosewho are allowed to interpret it
.
Yeah, not the Bible itself.

Speaker 2 (01:16:55):
Yeah, yeah, okay, okay, I see what you're saying.
So who are allowed to interpretit?
Not the Bible itself.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, okay, Isee what you're saying.
So it's not a sola scripturadeal, it's a hey, we're outside
of the Bible, but we get todecide what the Bible says.
Yes, okay, gotcha.

Speaker 1 (01:17:07):
Jesus' kingdom will have no end.
I agree with that.
Good, you're good.
The name Jehovah must be usedin worship to be accepted by God
.

Speaker 2 (01:17:19):
That's a Jehovah's Witness thing.

Speaker 1 (01:17:21):
Yeah, it is.
And then the last one which weshould have talked about but we
didn't, and that's okay.

Speaker 2 (01:17:30):
Christians should not celebrate birthdays or holidays
.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:17:34):
No, that's a JW thing .
That's a JW thing and on that,it's based on selective biblical
narratives and watchtowerrulings, so it's something like
it's vanity right, something tothat effect.
Like you're not supposed to do,it's wacky.
Do it lady.
Do it lady.
So, speaking of do it lady, youdidn't get any wrong, so hey,

(01:17:55):
so you redeemed yourself fromlast week.

Speaker 2 (01:17:57):
Celebration Celebration.
So, that's a 100?
.

Speaker 1 (01:18:00):
That is a 100%, so happy.
So there you go.
So this has been episode 48.
48, baby Of the Saints thatServe, podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:18:14):
Of the Saints that Serve podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:18:16):
You have anything else before we say the things.

Speaker 2 (01:18:19):
Only this, hey, charlie, haven't done it in a
while you haven't done it in awhile.

Speaker 1 (01:18:26):
Yeah, yeah Well, christ is Lord and the kingdom
is now.

Speaker 2 (01:18:30):
We are the Saints that Serve that serve.

(01:18:56):
She's got a smile and it seems.

Speaker 1 (01:19:06):
How did I know what you were doing?
It didn't sound anything likethe opening.

Speaker 2 (01:19:09):
It didn't at all.
And then I was like you know,it'd be funny if I just pivot
and switch out.
I'm like, Only if I just pivotand switch out.

Speaker 1 (01:19:25):
What am I paying $2,000 for?
For these singing lessons?
That's a Catalina wine mixer.
Right there, it's got to be theCatalina wine mixer.

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Episode 48 - Christianity Vs. Jehovah's Witnesses

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 48 - Christianity Vs. Jehovah's Witnesses