AI-Proof Your Salesforce Career: Communication and Leadership Techniques

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jon Cline (00:00):
It's very real and it's happening.
You know AI is not going tohave compassion on you for your
prior circumstances in history,right.
When I type in things, itdoesn't know I was a foster kid
and I'm dealing with my ownchallenges, right.
So it's a very good point onour capability of humans that
will be unsurpassed.

Josh Matthews (00:17):
And now the number one audio program that
helps you to hire, get hired andsoar higher in the Salesforce
ecosystem.
It's the Salesforce Career Showwith Josh Matthews and Vanessa
Grant.
Okay well, welcome everybody tothe Salesforce Career Show.
We have an absolutelyincredible show today because

(00:40):
we're going to be giving away$28,000, $28,000 of leadership
and communication training.
Look, when you've got highlydeveloped leadership and
communication skills, itinvariably leads to
substantially more income.
It impacts your team.

(01:00):
It impacts your clients in very, very positive ways.
One of the things I love aboutit is it actually protects you
from AI encroachment.
There are certain qualitiesabout leaders and highly
valuable communicators in theSalesforce ecosystem that if you
have these skills, you'rereally future-proofing your own

(01:20):
career.
We're going to be talking toJohn Klein, founder of People
First Method, and giving away 12free six-month admissions to
the next cohort in hisleadership and training
organization, which is designed100% specifically for you guys,
for the Salesforce professionalsin the world.

(01:41):
It actually doesn't even matterwhat country you're in.
I know that we're listened toin about 70 or so countries, so
as long as you can make the time, you can do it.
We'll also be sharing the promocode for how you can be one of
those 12 people to win whatactually, for each individual,
works out to about $2,400 perperson.

(02:02):
So we're going to be sharingthat.
So stay tuned for the promocode.
It'll be flashing down below alittle bit later on into the
show.
We're also going to be sharingwith you current openings that
we have in the ecosystem, somestatistics, some changes in
movement that we're seeing inthe job market, in Salesforce,
and we also have a massivebombshell announcement that

(02:26):
Vanessa is going to be sharing.
So definitely stay tuned forthat.
So with that, I'd like to goahead and introduce my lovely
co-host, vanessa Grant, and JohnKlein, our guest of the day and
the individual responsible fordedicating a fortune of
education and opportunity to thelisteners of our program.

(02:47):
So thanks both of you for beingon the show today.
Vanessa, my understanding isthat you've got an announcement
related to the MVP program withSalesforce.
What's that announcement?

Vanessa Grant (03:00):
So a little later than usual.
Usually they do this inDecember, but Salesforce has
just opened up MVP nominationsand they've also shortened the
period of whole section on howyou nominate an MVP.
So if there's somebody that youadmire in the ecosystem, like

(03:30):
John Klein or Josh Matthews, youcan go onto Salesforce's site,
nominate them, say how they'veimpacted your career and submit
that nomination.
Then there's going to be fromFebruary to April.
The nominations are going to gothrough this big review process
.
Usually it has to go throughlike existing MVPs, saying
whether they approve or not,also if folks that are already

(03:52):
MVPs have to get renewed.
And then it looks like it'll beJune 2025 when they announce
the new class of Salesforce MVPs, but a two-week window to make
big decisions for people's livesin June.

Absolutely, and this is a call to action for all
of our listeners.
I'm definitely going to benominating Vanessa because let's
face it, everybody she's earnedit.
She has done so much for thecommunity over the last five
years.
It's absolutely astounding.
If you do a little perplexitysearch on Vanessa, you can even
do a little search and say tellme about, give me the top 10

(04:30):
best inspirational quotes fromVanessa Grant, the Salesforce
professional, and perplexitywill actually just spit it all
out.
It's accessing our transcripts,it's accessing her sessions
that have been posted online andthings like that.
So she's an absolutelywonderful example of someone who
should absolutely be an MVP.
Now I had a really uniqueopportunity to talk to someone

(04:52):
today who's deeply involved inthe MVP ecosystem right the
whole setup and I got a littlebit of insight.
Did you know that some peoplewho are submitting you know
getting submitted or gettingsponsored?
What's the term Nominated,Nominated?
Thank you, brain fart.
Sometimes some people have 600people nominating them.

(05:17):
That doesn't guarantee thatthey're necessarily going to get
in.
It's actually a very complexprocess and I can tell you that
what I learned is that there'sreally not a lot of favoritism
going on.
It's an extremely difficult,very in-depth process with many,
many layers, and they do anexcellent job.

(05:37):
The one area I think that theymay have missed out on is
awarding the MVP to VanessaGrant.
We want to fix that this yearand sometimes they'll be like,
yes, this person definitelydeserves it, but they have to
keep the number low, Otherwiseit devalues what MVP status is,
and sometimes they'll say, look,we really like her, we really

(05:59):
like him, let's look at themnext year.
Yeah.

And I think what they look for I mean, besides
leadership, it's consistencyacross years.
So, like there have been, Ithink they've been burned in the
past and so they have evolvedthis process where, like you
know, they used to have peoplethat you know would just be
really active for a year, getMVP and then, like, fall off the
face of the earth and say, hey,I'm an MVP, so they want to

(06:25):
avoid that.
They also want to make surethat they have a diverse group.
I mean Salesforce professionalscan be in any country.
So maybe somebody who startsthe first trailhead community
group that meets regularly in,like I don't know, algeria or
something, might, might havemore, more of a of an impact,

(06:45):
you know, as far as the MVPprogram is concerned, than, like
you know, whoever does likefive things in the United States
in a major city.
So I think those are the kindsof considerations that also come
into play.

Absolutely.
So it's a big deal it'shappening right now.
The window is a little bitshorter than usual.
Do we know the specific URLthat they can go to?
Maybe you can drop that intothe comments or into a banner
and we can post it in a littlebit.
I do want to cover very quicklya couple key jobs that we're
hiring for through thesalesforcerecruitercom.

(07:21):
Those include look, I've beencalling it senior Salesforce
consultant.
Really it's solution architect.
You'd be running a team ofthree to five people with a
strong focus on sales cloud.
This is a smaller SI that you'dbe joining.
And one of the things I reallylove about this company they are
very, very picky, just likethis guy right here, so they're

(07:45):
very, very picky about who theybring on.
You must be able to developvery clean, clear, extensible
designs that are going to servethe client and be able to think
outside of the box, not just outof the box solutions.
So that's one of them.
We have another role.
It's a lead role.

(08:05):
It's for a nonprofit SI or it'san SI that focuses on nonprofit
.
We get a lot of roles from thisorganization.
We've placed approximately onethird of their staff or
somewhere around there.
I just absolutely love them.
They're the nicest folks.
It's a Midwest company.
You're going to find a familyatmosphere, very good income and

(08:26):
bonuses and wonderful people,and I know that because we
placed them All right.
So here's the URL.
Excuse me, I am getting over alittle bit of a cold, so if I
cough or sound a little scratchy, that's what's going on.
But don't worry about me, I'mjust fine.
So there's the URL.
We'll go ahead and leave thatup for a little bit.

(08:51):
Also, coming down the pike issomeone who's going to also work
for the same nonprofit as I,and that's going to be a little
bit more technical.
Someone who doesn't mind reallylike just sitting down for
eight hours and getting into thedata.
So if that sounds like you, youcan go ahead and tag me on
LinkedIn.
Okay, john Klein is visitingwith us today and John Klein's a
friend and he's got 20 years ofexperience in the ecosystem.

(09:15):
John, maybe you can just sharebefore we talk a little bit more
in depth about the contest andbefore we dive really into our
specific topics today, which, bythe way, are going to be around
how you can get out of chaos,how you can get out of bad

(09:37):
commitments and things like thatthese are a couple of the
modules that people will find ifthey engaged with People First
Method.
But maybe you could just giveus the quick 22nd uh highlight
about yourself and what peoplefirst method does my pleasure.

Jon Cline (09:51):
It's great to be with you today.
Uh, so this is my 24th year theSalesforce ecosystem.
I have 14 certs, including onea user experience from Nielsen
Norman.
Um, I'm also a Toastmasters fanand I think you know, and I'm a
solution architect, so I'm deepin the weeds in the Salesforce

(10:12):
world.
I love just kind of working withpeople in the trenches and out
of that process and working withpeople over the years, I found
that there are significant gapsin how we bring about customer
success.
That what we find on Trailhead,though it's tremendously
beneficial.
I was with Salesforce beforethere was Trailhead.
Those are very valuable, butthere's a tremendous amount of

(10:34):
depth and skill outside of ourtechnical expertise that
actually makes the keydifferences in a project and its
success and, in fact, the topthree causes for project failure
, looking at over 20,000projects over the last 50, 60
years, are all non-technical innature.
So really what I'm trying tohelp with is bring about more

(10:55):
customer success, more projectsuccess for the consultants,
admins, product owners, all theroles out there and ultimately
help our entire ecosystem raisethe bar as it relates to
bringing about meaningfuldigital transformation for
businesses today.

I love it, and can you enlighten our listeners
what kind of commitment thatmight look like to join a cohort
with your organization?

Jon Cline (11:20):
That's a great question and I think it's very
important for people to considerthis because, unlike Trailhead,
where I can go and if I want tograb a super badge I just roll
up, I can do that.
I can plan an afternoon, a week, whatever it's going to take
for me to basically binge thatand knock it out.
Whether I remember all of thedetails about what I did is a
little bit less important thanachieving it and getting the

(11:41):
accomplishment.
I can always refer back to whatI did.
When it comes to our ownpersonal habits and our ruts and
our evasive maneuvers and theways that we sometimes respond
to conversations or react toaccusations, those are a little
bit more deep in our lives.
Many of these things are habitsthat we've had since we were

(12:02):
kids.
They're things that, whenconflict arises, I kind of put
on this particular type ofbehavior, and it takes a minute
to actually find it andultimately figure out how we are
going to move forward andtransform and change that.
So because of that, weintentionally slowed down the
process.
So it's on-demand.

(12:23):
Courseware is the majority ofwhat we do, and though I might
be able to get through theentire thing within, let's say,
three to four weeks, we wouldn'tbe able to kind of marinate and
get the benefit of our peerswho are learning with us and
within that cohort you wouldn'tbe able to benefit from the
coach.
That's actually kind of learningabout you, seeing about your

(12:43):
responses in the courseware andtailoring the courseware to you
and the cohort.
So that's why we essentiallylook at doing one vignette or
lesson per week to help you takethe courseware in the beginning
process.
It let it marinate, figure out.
Why do I do that, what am Ithinking, what are some other

(13:04):
options?
And then bring that to our onehour meeting every week, which
is the only synchronous portion,and now we can actually talk
about that to the benefit of ourentire cohort, which is a very
small we do no more than 12people with the coach.
And that's the goal, becausechanging our intangibles,
changing those aspects thatwe've had as habits for the last
15 years.
Most people don't evenrecognize a lot of these things

(13:26):
on the conscious level and so wefirst have to surface them,
then we process them and thenactually we have the opportunity
to change them.

You know I love all of that, john I you know I
was talking.
I was chatting with a veryclose friend of mine recently
and we talked quite a bit abouthis business sometimes mine, but
mostly about his business andone of the things that he shared
with me is full of great quips,but one of the things he shared
is that there are certainpeople in the world who actually

(13:56):
have an addiction, an addictionto low pain work, and think
about that for a minute.
Do you, someone who does?
I do.
I talked to two people todaywho should be earning somewhere
between 120 and 150 and they'reasking for 90 because the
markets got them a littlefreaked out.
We'll talk about the markethere in a few minutes.

(14:17):
But you know, do you envisionthat some of those folks are
perfect candidates for this kindof education?

Jon Cline (14:28):
They could be and in my experience I've also seen
people like that and you knowthey have such great potential.
You see them, you interact withthem and I find that sometimes
people whether it's out of alittle anxiety, whether it's out
of fear they often divert tocoping mechanisms and just an
acceptance of I just I'm justnot good with people, you know.

(14:49):
I'm just not good in meetings,you know where there's multiple
people, I'm just not goodpresenting Right.
And in my opinion, those areall lies, those are all skills.
Just like, if I wanted to getbetter at baseball, I would just
need to understand themechanics of baseball.
Right, there's a swing, there'sa pitch.
I need to just get better at myhand-eye coordination.
I can be I'm not going to be BoJackson, but I can be better.

(15:12):
And I think the same isabsolutely true with all of
these intangibles and the peoplewho are maybe leaning on those
coping mechanisms and saying,that's fine, I'll let somebody
else do the leading, I'll letsomeone else lead the solution
design, I'll let someone else dothis, and they defer.
There's such an opportunity forthem to step into that role
with greater confidence.
It doesn't mean you have toknow everything, it just means

(15:33):
that you have to step up to yournext level, and when you can
step up to your next level, itopens up a whole new echelon of
kind of growth off of thatplateau.

Yeah, absolutely echelon of kind of growth off of
that plateau?
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean just from my personalexperience and I did not have a
great cohort to teach me thisstuff but certainly I think you
know what do they say, thatgrowth.
You know growth is wherehappens when you're in that
discomfort zone.

(16:04):
You know where things don'tfeel completely comfortable.
And I think a lot of times inthis ecosystem I don't know
about particularly, butcertainly I've seen it a lot in
this ecosystem where people havevery self-limiting beliefs.
I am not this or I am this.
I personally have run into thisin the oh, I'm not a content

(16:28):
creator, I'm bad at publicspeaking.
I didn't have a cohort, I onlyhad Josh Matthews kind of
holding my hand and giving mepep talks before speaking
sessions, but massive stagefright.
I'm not a solution architect isalso another one.
I'm not technical enough isanother one.

(16:49):
And I think once people havethese kind of self-limiting
beliefs and put themselves intothese boxes, they're not leaving
that opportunity for growth andso being open to evolving and
being open to doing thingsscared is so important,
especially if you want yourcareer to grow, if you want to

(17:12):
see where, where, how deep thatocean is as far as your, your
talents and your and your skillsets.
You don't know what.
What you don't know unless youtry.

It's a great point.
It is a great point.
You know, I had a conversationwith someone today, just today,
an interview and lovely personreally, a wonderful guy, very
bright, very capable, smart,deeply experienced.
You know, I'd classify him asan A-plus higher, except he

(17:44):
might not quite get the plus andit's because he has imposter
syndrome.
And he said a couple of thingsthat really stood out for me and
one of the things that heshared was that he's never
really wanted to, you know, pushtoo hard in self-promotion.
And what I was getting from himis almost this idea that like

(18:07):
to do that would potentially berude, right, or that to get
ahead, there's an idea in somepeople with imposter syndrome or
not, but there's an idea thatto get ahead or to promote
yourself is somehow stepping onother people to get there.
It's the same way that somepeople who don't have a whole

(18:30):
lot of they don't have two coinsto rub together, might feel
negative, just in general, aboutpeople who are financially
stable or financially successful.
It's just a thing Usually itcomes from childhood, usually
somewhere in there.
Thing Usually it comes fromchildhood, right, usually
somewhere in there.
That's where it comes from, butit should be washed out because

(18:51):
it's a different version ofhaving blinders on, or living by
a myth, because it's really amyth, right, not for all
communities, but it's anabsolute myth.
Does your program at alladdress some of these things
that we're talking about?

Jon Cline (19:09):
It does.
And just to speak to theexample of imposter syndrome,
everybody deals with impostersyndrome and the bottom line is
imposter syndrome will bepresent in all of our lives.
Until we prove it to ourselvesthat we are no longer an
imposter, no one can tell us.
All they can do is give us theopportunity to step into, and so

(19:32):
what the program highlights isone.
There's two parts of this.
One is the individual, me as Itraverse and navigate my own
professional world, and there'salso how can I create a context
and a setting that encouragesother people to step up and do
the very thing that I need to do.
Both of those elements can bedone at the same time, and they

(19:52):
really start with understandingthe impact of culture and values
on what it is that we're doing.
And that's why we call it thepeople first method, because,
yes, it's about technology,delivery, customer success and
we're focused on the Salesforceecosystem, but in order for that
to be successful, we have to bepeople first, in our posture
and in our perspective, andabsolutely it helps.

(20:14):
And the key here is knowingwhat I need is very common to
other people and what they need,so the more that I can achieve
that next level status in my ownlife, the more I can leave a
wake of welcome behind me toothers to do the exact same
thing.
To say.
You know what?
I still feel like an imposter,for example, when I get into

(20:35):
solution design withintegrations, but I used to feel
that with everything.
But now I can data model freelyaround standard and custom
objects, around automations, andI'm working on getting better
about web services andintegrations.
Other people can walk and followthe same path and our program
starts with that element ofunderstanding the vital role of

(20:57):
culture and values and teachingpeople to essentially put on a
new set of people first glasses,to have a different rubric with
the way that they see the worldand the way that they discern
what's happening in thoseconversations, because the same
things that are true for you andfor me as salesforce pros are
absolutely true in every roleinside that business.

(21:18):
So think about at the tablethere's people who are present,
who are, who don't feel likethey should be there, or who
have had the business tell themtheir opinion is not welcome,
that their role is not respected, that they're just to be quiet
and do the work, and thenthere's people who are not at
the table yet.
They're not even invited yet.
But they should be People fromthe warehouse the guy who runs

(21:40):
the forklift, the gal who doesthe shipping and receiving.
They're the stakeholders ofthis project and they're not
even present yet.
So it's our job as Salesforcepros to create that kind of
priority and welcome, so thatthe right people are at the
table at the right time and thatthey're put in a posture that
they're free to be transparentand vulnerable, because

(22:02):
ultimately, some of them havealready failed at this process.

You know, john that's.
You just said something abouthalf a minute ago.
You said you know, we teachthem to see, we teach them to
see things.
Now I some of you might alreadyknow I was an art major,
painting and drawing andsculpture and things like that
which qualified me to be arecruiter.
But when you, you know, whenyou're doing art, when you're

(22:28):
drawing life or drawing stilllife or whatever it is, or land,
it doesn't matter what you'redrawing.
You know, a lot of times peopleare trying to learn to control
their hand, but you really haveto control how you're seeing
things.
Right.
It's first about your input.
And when we think about, wetalk about MBTI or Myers-Briggs
type indicator on this showquite a bit just because I like

(22:49):
it, and so I bring it up a lot.
But one of the things that oneof the four components is like
what kind of information are youeven taking in?
Right, that's so different.
I mean, we've all got a friend,a partner, a business colleague
, you know, a parent or arelative that when we talk to
them there's this disconnect andwe're not really, we're just

(23:12):
kind of out of sync.
And I learned recently thateven couples, couples that are
perfectly designed for oneanother, are out of sync about
70% of the time, right?
So there should be thisexpectation that just assume
you're going to be out of syncwith people a lot of the time.

(23:33):
You know it's a little bitdifferent when you're five years
old and you're on theplayground and you can meet, you
know you meet someone and youknow within 10 minutes you're
running up to your parents andsaying this is my best friend.
Like it's a little bitdifferent.
You guys are in sync becausethere's just not a lot of
modalities or modes to kind ofexperience the world at that age

(23:55):
.
But as we become older and morecomplex, a little bit more set
in our ways and in particularset in what kind of information
we're actually taking in, boy,does it change.
So you know I'm an intuitiveand that means that I see
potential possibilities.
Frameworks, theory makes sense,but I can miss a lot of the

(24:19):
details which for a lot ofSalesforce pros particularly if
you're more on the technicalside, but even if you're on the
functional side is absolutelycritical.
There's a reason I don't havemy hands on a keyboard building
software Like.
There's a reason, guys, becauseI would suck at it right.
Like I would not be good at all.
So you know, that ability tosee and teach people about how

(24:41):
other people are actually takingin different information from
than you are, so that they cango ahead and make these um, make
these different decisionsaround problem solving, is
absolutely critical.
We're just three minutes awayfrom the top of the hour, which
is seven o'clock Eastern, hereon the live show.
You might be watching this onuh on the recording.

(25:05):
You might be listening to thison Spotify or Apple Podcasts or
iHeartRadio or whatever is yourplatform of choice.
So what I want to do now ishave Vanessa share a bit of a
bombshell of an announcement andthen we're going to dive in
more deeply with John to talkabout a solution to get out of

(25:28):
bad commitments We've all made.
You know, we've all committedto clients.
We've all committed to friendsand family.
That didn't necessarily serveus.
So many people I talk to talkabout their inability to say no.
Right, I know I think, vanessa,you might be one of those
people.
Am I wrong?

Yeah for sure, a hundred percent, a million
percent.

Yeah, but you're, but that's something that
you're working on.
You're like you're getting waybetter out of it, out of
necessity, and one of thosethings is right now.
So let's have it, vanessa,bombshell us.

Oh, all right.
Well, after three plus years,um, I have uh decided to step
down.
Uh, as a co-host of theSalesforce career show.
I still want to like come backand visit I, uh it is, it's been
so valuable to me and it it, itit does break my heart.

(26:28):
I just I have to just try and,with everything going on, with
kind of starting up a newbusiness and also I'm
homeschooling my ADHD kiddothese days, Um, I'm I'm just
kind of refocusing, uh, some ofmy time and trying to just focus
a bit also on my family, whichis going through some pretty

(26:48):
major changes right now.
But, gosh, this show has meantso much to me and you, josh, and
even just the relationship thatwe've built together has meant
so much to me and folks thathave come up to me and in
conferences and said that thisshow has been meaningful to them
is it's, it's it's these kindsof like tough decisions where

(27:15):
it's like I wish I could do itall and I just can't do it all
and I'm I'm so grateful and I'mI'm so grateful and all I want
is the continued success of theshow.
I just, unfortunately, there'sjust not enough of me.

There isn't.
And, vanessa, let me just sharepublicly what it's meant to me
to have you on the show.
This isn't going to be a longgoodbye we might do that on your
last episode, but it's beenabsolutely wonderful.
For those of you who are alittle bit newer to our program,
vanessa came on during COVID,when I was running.
I launched the show on Clubhouseand it was in an effort to help

(27:54):
reduce the.
It was basically open officehours where people could ask me
anything and I could help themwith their careers, but in a
very compact two hour once aweek program so that I wasn't
spending 40 hours a week talkingto people that.
You know what am I going to do?
There's no jobs during thoseinitial few months of COVID, so

(28:16):
that's why it got started andVanessa was a regular listener
and started to raise her handand answer some of the questions
that I'm completely unpreparedto be able to answer.
It might be technical, it mightbe hands-on, or it might be
something just a little bitdeeper into the ecosystem than I

(28:39):
get to witness in my positionat Salesforce staffing.
And from that point on and Ithink you've been on for three
years Is that about right?

Kimberly Barnes (28:48):
Yeah, for sure.

Three years, lots of changes, including going
from Clubhouse to X well, tolink to Twitter, that became X
and now to more of a videoformat here on LinkedIn Live and
on YouTube.
It's just been absolutelywonderful.
I appreciate our friendship and, more importantly, I'm just

(29:15):
overwhelmed with how muchwonderful recommendations and
advice and insight you've givento literally thousands and
thousands of people through thisprogram.
We've had over 20,000 downloadsand for some of you who like to
watch Mr Beast, that's notgoing to sound like a lot, but
we're not the largest ecosystemand we tend to serve people who
are typically in transition.

(29:36):
They're leaders who are intransition, they're potential
candidates in transition orpeople who are struggling in
their job, or just people whohappen to love the ecosystem and
get addicted to all sorts ofprograms like this.
But you've helped so manythousands of people.
I can't thank you enough.
You're going to be extremelydifficult to replace, but

(29:56):
Vanessa and I have come up withan idea that we think, along
with my friend Rachel, whoreally helped spur this idea,
which is to create our ownlittle contest for who's going
to be the next co-host.
Now, this is not going to belike being a lead singer of
Journey.
It's.

American Idol.

Yeah, this is not a Netflix special, but we're
going to do a couple of things.
So the first thing I'm going toshare down below is just a
little bitly code JoshForcecom.
If you're listening, it's verysimple.
It's JoshForcecom forward slashco-host and you will find a job
description and you can apply.
You will earn zero dollars andtons and tons and tons of

(30:38):
goodwill.
Okay, so we don't pay anything.
It's a completely voluntaryrole.
You'll probably spend somewherelike the minimum amount is
three hours a month or so, butyou'll probably spend a couple
extra hours helping withpromotions and you know talking,
talking with me about guestsand what the topics are going to
be.

(30:59):
So definitely visit joshforcecomforward slash co-host, and if
you think that you've got thekinds of qualities that make for
entertaining and informativepodcasts that are related to
Salesforce and, in particular,to people's careers, then I
absolutely want to hear from you.
You do not have to try to beVanessa Grant, you get to be

(31:21):
yourself.
Everybody gets to be themselveson this show, right?
So it's not a competition totry and meet the standard that I
think Vanessa has set very high.
It's really about bringingwhatever your ability is and
what your contributions are soyou can apply.
The top candidates from thoseapplications I'll have
one-on-one conversations withand then we'll invite a few of

(31:44):
them to co-host separately threeseparate shows.
We're going to take the topthree, we're going to run them
as co-hosts starting in Marchpossibly a little bit sooner
than that if we get the rightkinds of folks and then we'll
announce who the big winner ofdedicating their time for free
is going to be.

Okay, well, you know I I just want to add a
couple of things.
Um, one, I think our story evenjust the Salesforce career show
is is part of what I've I'vetalked about on this show, um,
where you don't have to be acontent creator, and this is
where I I had myself in a boxfor so long of like I'm not a
content creator, um, but Istarted out as a content

(32:27):
supporter.
I was just somebody who showedup to your show on Clubhouse
every week because I wanted tofind advice that I could give to
my mentees, and by supportingyour show and occasionally bring
me up to answer the you knowwhich certification should I get
next?
Or what does an admin really do?
Or what is a business analyst?
By regularly contributingopportunities presented

(32:50):
themselves, and that's how I'mhere today and the opportunities
that have come up fornetworking through this show,
through supporting people, whichis something that I love to do
through this show, has been, Imean, more valuable than if you
did pay, josh.

Well, I'm glad to hear it, because we can't
afford to pay anything.
We should make nothing, but itsure is fun to do.

Yeah, but it's also you know what I've learned
so much, even just for my owncareer, just being on this show.
I mean, your knowledge is, Imean, invaluable.

I appreciate that .
I appreciate you saying that,so we'll leave it up for just
another moment.
We've got the little linkjoshforcecom forward slash
co-host and I think with that,vanessa, john, let's go ahead
and dive into the contest.
I think a lot of people arelistening to the show or

(33:47):
visiting excuse me specificallyso that they can have an
opportunity to join a cohort forfree.
Again, this is a $2,400 value.
That's the typical cost.
I sort of feel bad even sayingthat, because so many people
have paid for that already,because you've been doing this
for quite some time, john.
This kind of investment intotheir ability to lead and

(34:10):
communicate better actuallyimpacts or improves their
current role.

(34:30):
Now let's go ahead and share acouple of basic things.
First of all, you will be ableto.
This looks like we've gotforward slash cohort and forward
slash co-host, so they're realsimilar.
But joshforcecom forward slashcohort is a quick, easy link to
remember, so you can go aheadand click on that, or we'll have

(34:53):
it in the bottom of YouTube andyou can just write it down, or
you can type it in wherever youare right now.
So go ahead and visitjoshforcecom forward slash
cohort.
That's going to take you to awebpage that John put together
specifically for this promotion,and there is a promotion code
which we'll share at the end ofour explanation here.
So, john, can you describe thetypes of people that should be

(35:17):
applying for this opportunity?

Jon Cline (35:21):
Yes, and we're very excited to share this with your
show and your audience.
I love what you've been doingand contributing and, vanessa,
thank you.
This is my first time beingable to share the stage with you
, but I stand on the shouldersof something very special and so
wish you the best and love yourfamily commitments.
I think the best candidates arethose who have some experience

(35:49):
being a Salesforce professionalalready.
I think the key here is tounderstand they've been in those
situations that have beenawkward.
They felt kind of they hadtheir, you know, someone kind of
manipulated, coerced orotherwise pushed them into
situations that they didn't wantto be in.
Maybe they committed their teamto something that forced them

(36:09):
to work over weekends and theaccount became a red account
anyway.
Those aspects are important froman experience standpoint
because that's going to help youget the most out of the program
.
The program, the cohort, ismost powerful when people
recognize the value it's goingto deliver, because it will
require emotional investment.

(36:29):
It will require contemplationand thinking about those ruts,
as you mentioned earlier, thathave come from our childhood and
if we want something we'venever had, we're going to have
to do something we've never done, and my job in this program is
to help guide you through thatprocess with a set of peers
that's supporting you and acoach that has been there and

(36:50):
can guide you every step of theway.
So I'd say probably at leastone year of experience is
probably a good you know, kindof a good benchmark.

Can I ask you, John, is this best for someone
who's actually working right now?
I mean, can someone who's notworking have the same
opportunity to apply whatthey're learning on a regular
basis?
If they're not currentlyengaged in employment, they
might want to take advantage ofa bit of the availability and

(37:20):
the downtime to make the most ofit From my perspective.

Jon Cline (37:32):
I mean, we had one of our graduates from the last
cohort last year who essentiallygot hired and got promoted
within eight months and they hadnever had a Salesforce career
prior.
They came out of organizationalleadership and ultimately this
was that they actually came fromone of the other tactical
programs and needed more, and sothey came to our program and

(37:53):
really accelerated what theywere looking to do.
So I really think it's thatattitude that we talked about
earlier.
If you're wanting to step intoa role and think about, you know
, upskilling and upthinking toyour next role.
Maybe you're an admin and youwant to try and move into a role
and think about upskilling andup thinking to your next role.
Maybe you're an admin and youwant to try and move into a
senior BA role, or you want tomove into a product owner or
maybe even a junior architect.

(38:14):
There's aspects on the peoplefirst side.
That's what's going to get youthere, because Salesforce, we
have 400 pages of release notesthree times a year.
Nobody knows everything aboutany of it.
That stuff can be grown alongthe way.

Very good, okay.
So there you go.
Super easy to apply.
We're going to go ahead andshare the promo code now.
The promo code for all youlisteners out there is SFCS.
That's Method, okay.
So SFCS 2025 PFM and it's goingto be the first 12 people that

(39:00):
qualify will be accepted intothe program.
Is that accurate?

Jon Cline (39:04):
That's correct, and when they go to the form, you
please type in the promo code.
And then it also talks a littlebit about qualification details
and I think we would love tounderstand your goals, what
you're looking to do andaccomplish.
As you know, Josh mentioned,there's going to be a really
good sweet spot for many peopleand we want to identify who are

(39:27):
the people who are going to bethe best candidates, not only to
just join the program, but wewant to track this cohort and
validate that, the successesthat these people have over
their history.
And so if you could add a fewmore details there and
essentially I will be followingup with everybody, providing
some detail to put an event onmy calendar and then we can have
a conversation.

(39:48):
We want to really help peopleand find the best candidates to
get into this cohortconversation.

And we want to really help people and find the
best candidates to get into thiscohort.
I love it, guys, we're.
We might, uh, talk a little bitabout this a bit later in the
show, but for now you've gotwhat you need right.
So it's joshforcecom forwardslash cohort and it's S F C S.
Two zero two, five PFM is yourpromo code.
Go out, do your best, go grab$2,400 of awesomeness for free.

(40:14):
And, by the way, I can tell youthis and I know this for a fact
because I'm continually tryingto get better, you know, with my
own communication skills, andone of the things that I am
working on, john and audience isI can get pissed off.
I get pissed off pretty fast.
Everyone's got their owntriggers, trust me, I got a
bundle.

(40:34):
I got a bundle of them, and sohow do I like experience that?
And now, old Josh not old rightnow, I am old, but not old.
Old Josh, I mean younger Josh.
Younger Josh had zero and still, to an extent, has zero
problems saying what I think towhomever I think should hear it

(40:57):
Right, and that's one of thethings I think that helps me to
be successful in the role thatI'm in, and I appreciate that.
But anything maximized too much,any good thing maximized too
much, does become a liability.
And I had an experience where aclient this week pushed back on
me, you know about, aboutsomething to do with a candidate

(41:18):
and it just kind of pissed meoff.
It's sort of, you know, I start, I start having these thoughts
like, well, I've done 15,000interviews, how many have you
done?
And I thought this stuff isjust swirling in my brain and
I'd be like, don't tell me that.
Like I know, you know that's amyth.
You don't like, you don't knowwhat you're talking about, Like
all this stuff.
And then eventually I'm like,take a breath, get on.
And I'm like, hey, I totallyget, that Sounds good.

(41:40):
Right, I couldn't do that 10years ago.
I might not have been able todo it five years ago, right, so
you're never too young, or,excuse me, you're never too old
to get better at these things.
That will help you, help yourbusiness, help your
relationships and further youalong.
And so the point, the long pointthat I'm trying to get to here,

(42:01):
is that the sooner you investin these communication skills,
right, and in your leadershipskills, the more it will be
amplified over time.
It's just like dropping.
Like, if you're 25 and for somereason you've got a hundred
thousand dollars to drop into anindex fund, you know you're

(42:23):
going to have I don't know whatit is $400,000 in 20 years,
something like that, right, soyou know, make the investment in
yourself.
Now this is, by the way, thisis not a sales pitch.
You don't have to join peoplefirst method.
There's tons of different waysto go about getting better at
your communication skills andyour leadership skills.
God knows, youtube's full of it, linkedin's got tons of stuff,

(42:47):
but what I like about yoursystem is it's controlled system
, and I've gone through cohortsbefore with recruiter education,
excuse me and I've absolutelyloved it.
I'm still friends with people.
This is six years later.
Seven years later, I'm stillfriends.
We're still bouncing ideas offof each other.
In fact, the only reason whyI've got a YouTube channel at

(43:07):
all is because of these friendsright From a cohort from six
years ago.
So it will pay dividends.
We have on the stage with usKimberly Barnes.
Welcome Kimberly.
How are you today?

I'm good, I guess I'm a friend of the show
now.

You are a friend of the show.
Kimberly was invited by Vanessato join us and we're very
grateful that you're here today.
John's going to dive in alittle bit, but we want you to
feel fully free to share yourinput, ask questions and just be
a little bit of a part of thisnext little segment in our
program.
And so with that, actually, whydon't you just tell us who you

(43:46):
are and what you do before wedive in?

Yeah, absolutely Might as well.
It's nice to meet you all.
My name is Kimberly Barnes Ialso go by Kim Barnes and I am
from my own company, lipstickand Tech, where I help entry and
mid-level tech professionalslaunch into Salesforce careers.
It all kind of started from ablog this is actually
pre-pandemic where I told myselfyou know, I really wanted to

(44:11):
get into content creation, butwhat's something I actually
myself?
You know I really wanted to getinto content creation, but
what's something I actually knowabout?
And that was really just tryingto get more women into tech.
I didn't see a lot of people ofcolor who were in the Salesforce
group and, lo and behold, therewere.
There were communities.
I just wasn't like as tuned in,and my hope is to you know,
it's just kind of grown moreinto welcoming more folks in the

(44:36):
industry, and so I've met a lotof incredible people through
this journey and hopefully I'llhave some stuff to share.
I resonate a lot with beingalmost feeling like my soft
skills were stronger than mytechnical skills, so a lot of
what you're saying is reallyresonant and it can take you
pretty far in the tech industry,where sometimes the hardest

(45:00):
thing is people, not even thetech solution.
So welcome.

Yeah, man, we're complicated, right.
I mean, people are really.
You know, we're reallycomplicated.

And you know we're really complicated.
We're like, okay, it's okay, Icould just run, you know, my
emails through AI and that'll doit, or I can figure out what
questions I should ask in adiscovery through AI.
And having this kind of thecoaching where you can actually
develop these skills is going tobe able to understand what it

(45:45):
means to read people's facialexpressions.
It's not going to understandthat when you walk into a room
as a consultant the first time,that person is going to be
scared that you're going toimpact their job and it's not

(46:05):
going to ask questions or phrasethem appropriately to
accommodate that empathy.
Leave room for those feelings,and that's where can AI do great
things.
Yes, is it going to developthese soft skills in a way that
will get you further in yourcareer, where you are the person

(46:27):
who is leading the AI and notthe AI leading you.
That's where making sure youdevelop these soft skills is so
important, especially with thisAI future coming.

Absolutely and coming.
I mean it's here, it's here.
Sorry, we were saying that twoyears ago, 2.0.
It was a year and a half agothat, or I guess it was just
over two years ago that ChatGPTcame out.
Is that about accurate Twoyears?
I think?
I don't know.

No one knows.

Comment below Let us know if we know what we're
talking about At least two years.

But the company itself, I think, started quite
a while ago.

We'd hope so.
They had to build a lot.

Well, and you know, not to mention, you know,
now, now, all the AI tools arecompeting, so now they're all
competing for attention.
We all.
You know I'm pretty versed withprompting these days, mostly in
quad, but I know you know Istarted with chat GPT.
I'm learning Genesis.
I'm a Salesforce consultant.

(47:29):
Why am I learning this stuffRight?

It's here.
Yeah, it's here.
Yeah, I want to say it was ayear and a half ago.
We had David Giller on andDavid was talking about I mean,
he was giving us great insight.
And then we ran into him a yearlater at New York world tour
and Vanessa and I sat down withhim and he was talking about
what he was doing and how he wasutilizing it.
And I know two people, like I'dsay, david Geller and Mike

(47:55):
McCool are the two people I knowthat have glommed on to the AI
thing so well.
I mean I look at them and like,wow, you guys, this must be
your hobby, right, it's theirhobby.

Ian Gotts too.

I would also say oh yeah, there you go.
Yeah, for sure.

You can't write a post on LinkedIn these days
without you got commenting withlike here's my white paper.

Well, let's go ahead and dive into a little bit
of the meat.
Our show is going to wrap up atleast by 7 PM tonight, so
that's 40 minutes.
So let's talk a little bitabout a solution to get out of
bad commitments and to say no bysaying yes.
John Klein, you have the floor.

Jon Cline (48:37):
Awesome, so welcome.
And I'll just have one commenton kind of role erosion by AI,
because it's very real and it'shappening.
You know, ai is not going tohave compassion on you for your
prior circumstances in history,right, when I type in things, it
doesn't know I was a foster kidand I'm dealing with my own
challenges, right.
So it's a very good point onour capability of humans.

(48:59):
That will be unsurpassed.
So let's get some backgroundhere, just for the circumstance.
So imagine you're a businessanalyst and you're working on a
release, right.
You're kind of putting togethera demo.
You're putting it together withthe client and you go through

(49:20):
the process, you tell a greatstory with the demo and in the
demo are two additional peoplethat you've not met yet, and so
you give the demo.
Your stakeholder says, hey,this is great, love the way this
is looking.
And then the other twostakeholders you find out are
the CFO and the newly hired CTO,who you haven't met yet.
And this is their firstengagement with you and they say

(49:43):
this is really great.
We're excited with what we seehere and I know we have a new
renewal coming up on thecontract, because this is the
CFO renewal coming up on thecontract, right, because this is
the CFO.
All we need to see is ABC addedto that demo, maybe a
transformation, a littleautomation.
From their perspective, it'ssimple, should be no big deal.

(50:03):
We just need to see that in ournext demo, which we'd like to
see before our board meeting infive days.

Can you do that?
And so, john, what you'retalking for for some people who
might not be you know they mightbe Salesforce professionals,
not necessarily working in an SIright, or not necessarily
pitching clients, internalstakeholders, right.
So you know it's it's work forfree.
Usually it's work for free iswhat we're talking about.

Jon Cline (50:30):
Yeah, in this case, right, it's work for free or
it's work over the weekend,right, you had a wedding you
were going to attend, right,with your family, and now you
have to stay and it's not justyou In order to put that demo
together.
You have a developer you'reworking with.
It doesn't really matter thecircumstance of whether it's an
internal staff or externalSalesforce partner or SI, the

(50:51):
same is true.
Ultimately, you found yourselfin a predicament where that
executive is asking somethingunreasonable of you, and this
happens all the time.

If you don't mind , I'll even share something that
happened to me really recently.
So I'm going to be travelingsoon for work, and so I had a
manager say well, since you'regoing to be traveling that day
and it's going to be a long trip, we're just going to need that
deliverable sooner.
And I'm like okay, so it's, youknow, it's the do more with

(51:24):
less.
And so I was telling somebodyabout it and they're like yeah,
you know time is finite unlessyou're in Salesforce consulting.

Jon Cline (51:31):
Yeah, you know time is finite unless you're in
Salesforce consulting Right yes,it's a good point.
And the more you think aboutthis category, you start to find
that there's people who I callthis boundary jumping.
People are totally fine to jumpyour boundaries, and as long as
they get what they're lookingfor and sometimes people aren't
even conscious that they'redoing this They've just been
having this habit that this ishow they treat their lower staff

(51:55):
people, their consultants,whoever it might be.
I just get stuff done.
This is how I get done.
I grind people and I boundaryjump.

It's an assertive nature.
I'm just going to jump in.
It's an assertive nature,quality right, and oftentimes,
typically people who are moreassertive make more money and
and rise in leadership.
It's just a fact, right.
But again, anything maximizedtoo much becomes a liability,
and I think that's the case inthis situation.

Jon Cline (52:22):
Agreed Right, because there's there's cultural and
relational dimensions that areessentially eroded and degraded
with this.
So, given the fact that this isa reality, this is going to
happen with this.
So, given the fact that this isa reality, this is going to
happen, I want to ask a question.
Let's say that right, that BAor that admin.
In that scenario, she respondsto the request and says I'm

(52:43):
sorry, I can't do that.
What's the emotional responseof the two stakeholders that are
there, the CFO and the CTO?
How do they feel?

Well, people who are in leadership positions tend
not to like to hear the word no, you are correct, right, I mean
, this is negotiating 101, right, oh, not negotiating again,
josh.

That's a start shriveling.

Jon Cline (53:04):
Yes.
So they don't like to hear theword no, and, in fact, when they
hear the word no, commonly whathappens is they stop listening
to anything else you might say,because now they are so
frustrated what did you just say?
But they're not going to saythat.
But that's what they'rethinking, kind of like.
The moment you had Josh, whenyou just had all the things
swirling in your head, there'san aspect of like wait, did you

(53:25):
understand who I am?
All of this?
Okay, so my recommendation is Iencourage people not to say no,
and we provide a simple formula.
So this is one week's, which isone week's lesson, and the
program, particularly thislesson, is called.
This is what I can do, and it'sessentially a formula.
Many of our alumni have told methat they take a post-it note

(53:46):
and they stick it right belowtheir monitor so that when they
get in these situations andtheir heart rate goes right when
that happens, because they feelthe tension and they don't like
it, and they're hospitalityoriented, they're people
pleasers, which is a beautifulthing in the right context.
In this context, though,they're about to commit their
entire team to work over theweekend by saying yes, and they

(54:07):
really need to be empowered tofigure out how to get out of
that situation while preservingthose relationships.
So the formula that I recommend,after presenting the background
, is we need to do three things.
First thing we need to do is weneed to validate the ask.
We need to tell them, you knowwhat.
What you're asking for isreally valuable.
I see how this is really goingto impact the business and I'm

(54:28):
really glad.
I'm really glad you brought itup.
The second thing we do is wevalidate the assignment.
You know what.
I'm really glad that youbelieve in us in such a way,
because that's a really tightturnaround, and I'm really happy
you have confidence in us thatwe're able to accomplish
something of that measure andsignificance in such a short
amount of time.
So I validated the ask, Ivalidated the assignment and now

(54:50):
I make my offer of compromise.
You know, thinking about it, Ineed to connect with my team,
but what I can do is I know wehave a little time on Friday
that we can open up and we canexplore this more deeply and
really figure out what thefinish line looks like, and we
can take some time early onMonday because I know the team
has a meeting that I can push tothe back of the week and we can
open up some more time there.

How does that sound a?

Jon Cline (55:12):
meeting that I can push to the back of the week and
we can open up some more timethere.
How does that sound Now?
I never said no, but I alsonever committed to anything more
than I was willing to commit to, and the benefit there is all
the executives in the room.
They're still listening to me,they're still hearing and
they're processing what I said.
And there's an aspect where me,as the technical professional
in the room, where there'smystery, there's margin, there's

(55:35):
a phrase right where there's anaspect of I know more about
what it's going to take, who isgoing to be involved, what the
actual downstream elements arearound testing and UAT and all
of the aspect of how they'vebeen doing.
I know way more about that thanthey do, and so that mystery
becomes my asset in thisarrangement.
But the key here is that I wasable to focus back on my

(55:58):
storytelling and my demo andkeep the meeting back on track.
I never said no.
This is my first time meetingthese two people.
All they heard was yes tosomething, and we'll do that.
And now we'll help define thefinish line and I'll reserve the
difficult conversation when wego to figure out the finish line
and say, great, running amarathon is too much, but
running a sprint is probablylikely.

(56:19):
So here's what we can do again,and I basically reapply the
same principle over and over andover validate the ask, validate
the assignment and make myoffer of compromise.

I love that too .
I and again I also raised myhand with, having seen that
literally a few weeks ago in myline of work One of the things
that you know when you are at alower level you think, oh, I
don't have the authority tospeak to it.
But the reality is, even ifyou're not in a leadership

(56:51):
position, anything you say, theclient will hear it and then say
, oh, they said they could do it.
Now you almost devalue yourwork if you say yes to
everything.

Jon Cline (57:01):
You're right.

If you go into that room and say, oh, I can
complete this, you set yourselfup for a deadline and if it's
not the highest quality youwanted, you never gave yourself
even an opportunity to say, hey,you know, can we just like
frame it in a way that will likedeliver more, like, if I'm
given X time, the value of mespending the extra time is

(57:24):
you'll actually meet your goal.
So so much of what you said waslike so true, and one of the
things you know, know, how didit make you feel?
Uh, what was the question thatyou asked on?
And for me it's like, oh mygosh, he's not a team player.
He just dismissed any of myrequests and feelings and and,
frankly, just I don't want totalk to you anymore.

(57:46):
I want to talk to your leader.

Jon Cline (57:47):
Maybe your leader will work with me and I want to
highlight one thing you justmentioned there, which which is
really good.
So, this is essentially a themeacross all of our vignettes is
the ability to leveragecommunication as a recon device,
and you just highlighted anexample there.
So, first of all, if I'mlooking to move to the next
echelon of my career, I want toget a 20% boost in my next

(58:11):
salary negotiation.
Is that more likely, by mesaying yes or by me saying no?

Yeah, I mean yeah , we're not going to have too
long a pause, but yeah, it's aredundant question.

Jon Cline (58:26):
Yeah, yes, by me saying no and recognizing that
I'm the one who actuallyunderstands this, and you put me
responsible for this, and soI'm going to take responsibility
.
The second aspect is exactlywhat you highlighted, by me
putting myself out there andstating my offer of compromise.
I wait and listen and just putup my antennae and I know what
kind of people am I dealing with.
Are they people who are attunedto relational dynamics?

(58:50):
Do they recognize that I'm avaluable part of this
organization?
And if you continue jumping myboundaries, I am out of here,
because there's 10 companiesbehind you who want me, and if
you're not one of them, I'mhappy to move on to the next,
because I am qualified, I amskilled, I am capable, and I'm
not going to be put in anenvironment where I am put under

(59:12):
someone's thumb, as thougheverything is negotiable and all
of this is just magic.

Yeah, I love it.
I keep thinking of the reallystraightforward chapter one.
Chris Voss, never Split theDifference, favorite book on
negotiating.
And when he just says, you know, like, yeah, that's great, but
how am I supposed to do that?
Right, and getting the gettingthe other person to come up with

(59:41):
the actual solution instead ofsaying yes to what they think is
the right thing you know to dofirst, and I think, too, you
bring up a really good point.
I mean the validate, validate,validate.
I mean you guys do that whenyou're building product, aren't
you?
I mean, you're constantlyvalidating, so why wouldn't you
do it in a human context?
Right, it's absolutelynecessary.

(01:00:03):
And making certain that peoplefeel heard, that you have a
clear understanding of it, iscritical.
And, sabrina, uh sorry, um, kimkim barnes, kimberly barnes,
kim barnes, um, you know yousaid something in there.
I'm trying to remember exactlywhat it was, but it but, uh, the
idea that you may devalue thequality of your work or the

(01:00:25):
perception of your capabilitiesby saying yes to everything, and
I absolutely believe in that.
And the reason.
There's a reason behind that.
How is it being devalued?
Well, people are picking upthese subtle inputs that you're
not discerning If you can'tprotect your own time, how can
you protect theirs?
You know, if you're a pushover,how good a quality are your

(01:00:48):
ideas actually, if you're ableto be.
You know, I don't want to usethe word bully, but I can't.
Yeah, you don't want to be apushover or wuss wimpy.
You know anything like that,right?

Jon Cline (01:01:02):
Well, another key point on this is that this habit
is also important with your ownteam, because even people who
are on your own team willsometimes look to push you and
jump your boundaries.
So one of the common things Ihear from alumni who come
through our program is that whenI go to my management and when

(01:01:23):
I go to my team leads and I say,hey look, I can't sustain 75
hours a week, I can't do this.
I understand the deadlines havebeen set by the customer and
and there's these boundaries, oryou know, like we have these
release deadlines right, like Ican't sustain this, like I have
to have a family life, and thecommon response they get is this
is just kind of the way it isin consulting or in the

(01:01:46):
Salesforce world.
There's this kind of status quoexpectation, which I personally
totally disagree.
I think there's an aspect ofempowering people, with even
their own team members, toleverage the same method of
offering an offer, whilevalidating the ask and the
assignment is also somethingthat people should be.

(01:02:06):
It's a rinse and repeat processwhenever you need to protect
your boundaries because you'resaying no by saying yes, and
it's very difficult.
It's like Tim Ferriss says,when you want to negotiate
something really, reallychallenging.
You always ask does that soundreasonable?
Because who can say no to thatquestion?
Yeah Right, because it soundsso reasonable.
And that's really the goal hereis to come up with something so

(01:02:27):
reasonable that it just becomesirresistible and you get your
boundary protected andultimately that protects your
team and people start to lovebeing with you and working with
you because you lead with thisexample and take on kind of a
mama bear, papa bear sentimentwhen it comes to protecting
people's world, and that bringsout the best in people, in my

(01:02:49):
opinion.

Josh Matthews (01:02:51):
John, I'd like to ask you something about this
before we turn into the nextlittle segment, which is going
to be about turning chaos intocompliments.
Do you have any recommendationsfor the audience if they've
made a bad commitment alreadyand they need to get out of it?

Jon Cline (01:03:09):
Absolutely, and this will happen from time to time.
Sometimes the courage to standup and do this will come after
the fact, and so, for me, Iwould always recommend you can
leverage the same principle,just by going back and
highlighting this is what wasasked for, this is what we

(01:03:29):
committed to, and often I wouldhighlight that the new element
of clarity that's been receivedsince that conversation.
Maybe I've thought through mycalendar now.
Maybe I talked to one of myassociates or my teammates and
found out some additionalinformation.
I talked to one of myassociates or my teammates and
found out some additionalinformation.
Leverage that additional pieceof information back into the
conversation and highlight andsay I prematurely committed to
that and I I want to make surethat I respect the time of my

(01:03:53):
peers.
In the same way I would want torespect your time, and so this
is what I can do.
So you basically walk throughthe same process with the new
offer that you can make to themin light of that new information
.

You know, you, just you.
You just brought up somethingvery powerful, which was pulling
in third party, right, Pullingin other people, right?
This, this is a way of reducingthe heat on you, right?
You're demonstrating thatyou're looking out for others
and that the impact of whatthey're requesting isn't just an

(01:04:28):
impact on you, but an impact onmany people, and they're not in
a position.
The person we'll call them anopponent, the person that is
making the request isn't in aposition to negotiate with all
of those people.
And so, when you're showing upas the team lead maybe you're
not a team lead, but you stillknow that your decisions are

(01:04:48):
going to impact that team You'redemonstrating care for the team
and you can leverage that withthe person that you're
negotiating with.
Right, such as look, I'm veryclear that if we do this, if we
say yes to this, it's going toimpact about three or four
people immediately.

(01:05:08):
There's going to be a rippleeffect to all of their families
over the weekend, right?
So we're talking about 25people that are going to be
impacted by this enhancement tothe demo that you're looking for
, and we haven't known eachother long.
You seem like a really niceperson.
You also seem like the kind ofperson that probably doesn't
want to negatively impact 25people this weekend.

(01:05:30):
So I've come up with an idea, asolution that I think is going
to get you really, really closeto what you're looking for but
keep the goodwill, not just forme, but everyone else on the
team and everyone else that theygo home to.

Jon Cline (01:05:46):
That sounds reasonable, doesn't it Right?
Yeah, that's a great appeal tocollaboration, appeal to
compassion.
There, I totally agree and, Ithink, highlighting that,
because sometimes, as a recondevice, you'll find that the
person was totally non-cognizantas to what the impact would be,
which is very common in theSalesforce world.

(01:06:06):
Right, it's the Salesforce thatyou told me.
I can just point, click, createa field and it just happens
right.
I don't know about all thiscustodian stuff and all the
automation stuff and all of ourgovernance programs and I don't
understand any of that.
I just thought it was actuallyfor something simple, because
that's what I was sold, and soleaning on that idea that people
are probably coming to this notin a nefarious way but really

(01:06:28):
in an innocent way, and havingthat attitude and that kind of
grounding initially is reallyreally valuable so that they can
respond and be like thank youfor sharing that with me.
You're right, I would neverwant to ask for all of that, and
so let's put it on the backlogand figure out when we can put
it into place right In a morereasonable time and then you
learn a lot about that person.

Vanessa Grant (01:06:48):
So I I think the scenario that I run into, though
maybe more often, is and againcoming from a probably a good
place, still, like you know,they're not.
They're not looking foreverybody to have to, you know,
not spend time with their kidsall weekend so that they can
finish something, but a lot of,especially in the consulting

(01:07:10):
world, they don't want todeliver bad news to the client
and it's easier to, you know,lean into the team and get them
to work overdrive rather thantell the client no.
And that's where I think it isa little bit challenging,
because it's like, well, I mean,I'm sorry it's all hands on

(01:07:32):
deck because we don't, but theyjust don't want to tell the
client.
That's not the best way to moveforward, that's not the, and I
find so many consultants arejust kind of yes people to their
clients to a certain extent,rather than being realistic
about how much things actuallycost and how much, how they
maybe shouldn't be doing thesecertain things.

Yeah, I think I'm going to jump in here, vanessa.
I think it's been exacerbatedby the, by the market of the
last two years.
Right, there's there's feweropportunities for SIs.
Sis, there are smaller teams atsalesforce, customers everyone
wants more or the same to getdone with fewer people.

(01:08:12):
There's a fear of uh, clientloss.
Right, there are a number of Idon't know how many new, how
many SIs came up in the lastyear.
We talked about it in our yearend show about four weeks ago.
It's like 700,000.
I mean, it's like a ton right,and many of these people don't

(01:08:32):
need to make a lot of money andcan still do a good job, and so
they're afraid of gettingundercut, they're afraid of
losing the client, they'reafraid of losing future business
with the client, and so theyall become yes-men.
I don't think it's a healthything at all.
People like transparency.
They want to know what's real.
You've got to show them thevalue.

(01:08:52):
And one last little thingbefore we jump into the next
mini segment here is a momentago we were talking about
bringing in other people right,talking about the team, talking
about the team's family andthings like that.
I do this with emails sometimes.
If I need a faster response.
I've messaged a client, or I'vemessaged a candidate or a

(01:09:16):
vendor, and I'm not comfortablewith the tempo with which
they're responding.
I will begin to send themfollow-up messages and I'll drop
all my employees in there.
I'll just make a show out of it.
Maybe there's two people, maybethere's five people, but I'll
just drop in a bunch of CC'dpeople, because there's that

(01:09:37):
social pressure then to respondquickly.
L so leveraging social pressureto get the kind of information
that you need when you need itis a very valuable little trick
that you can utilize in thesetypes of situations as well.
So, john-.
I'll add one tiny thing beforewe move on yeah, go for it, Kim.

Kimberly Barnes (01:09:58):
The only thing I'll say is when I don't have an
opportunity to negotiate withthe customer, because you
actually have to have a betteridea of like what that customer
is looking for like that.
But that takes interactions tofigure out whether they're the
kind one or the.
No, I need this now, customer.
But what I was going to say wasyou can't negotiate with
customer, you can negotiate withyour team.

(01:10:20):
I work at a company with greatcompany culture.
We're like yes, there will bedays where I'm working
relentlessly, but then, likeFriday, I have off Because I
invested all that time earlier.
So there's always opportunityto negotiate.
That was my last thought.

Jon Cline (01:10:38):
That's a great reciprocity example, right, you
feel good?

about that.
Very good.
Reciprocity example, right, youfeel good about that.
Very good.
For our last section thatyou're going to be sharing with
us is how to turn chaos intocompliments.
This is one of your modules.
What do you mean?
Turning chaos into compliments?

Jon Cline (01:10:57):
So it goes to that example of, let's imagine, right
, whether an admin or we're aconsultant, but we are at the
table and we recognize thatthere's some people at the table
right.
There might be an officemanager.
There might be, you know, likea warehouse manager.
Maybe there's, you know, couldbe a clerk, or could be what

(01:11:18):
some would perceive in thebusiness as a you know, kind of
a lower level frontline staffperson.
All right, and in my experienceI've not found that those
people are the mostwell-respected, most esteemed
people inside the organization,although they should be.
The other aspect is there'speople on the team recognize
when they hire a Salesforceconsultant or they make a hire

(01:11:39):
for a Salesforce, you know,expert, an admin, an architect,
the business has likely tried tosolve whatever problems or
innovations that they're tryingto do.
They've likely tried to solveit already and have not been
successful, which is why you memay be there.
So it's important to understandthat there's already a level of

(01:12:00):
potential embarrassment,potential vulnerability.
People are putting their maskson, they're putting their
protections on.
They don't know if, as somebodymentioned earlier I think it
was Kimberly right that we mightbe coming for their job.
That's what they think, right.
So all these things are alreadypresent in the room before we
ever get there.

(01:12:20):
We have to understand that.

So there's, a setting.

Jon Cline (01:12:23):
there's an environment there that is not
conducive for people to betransparent, to be open, to be
essentially to share about theirscabs, their wounds, their
bruises right.
For example, most Salesforceadoption problems actually are
not technology related either.
There's a tremendous allergyinside the organization of
something prior that happened.

(01:12:43):
Maybe it was the first releasefailed, maybe it was the prior
system was crazy, maybe it was.
They just get berated andmocked by the technical people,
like we've heard about the ID10Terrors that people get in their
technology right.
That spells idiot, by the way,so these are terrible ways that
people get Now I feel like anidiot.

Thanks, john, thanks for telling it out buddy.
Yeah, just just you know that'slike Saturday Night Live.

Jon Cline (01:13:08):
Remember the guys like move, right, yeah.
So what this?
The goal of this is, isprimarily two things.
One is we have to create anenvironment that people are
willing to share with us.
They don't know who we are,we're intimidating, we're like
the high priced person coming inthe room thinking that we know
it all.
Right, like the consultant onthe on the office or office

(01:13:28):
space.
We have to create anenvironment where we can connect
with people so that they'llshare with us, because unless we
get to the truth, unless weunderstand why this failed and
what the allergies are and whatthe you know, the elephants in
the room and all of these things, right, like you know, like the
people, politics process,profit, product.
We got to be able to get thetruth on all that.
If we don't create anenvironment where people can

(01:13:49):
share, they won't share and ourproject will be compromised
because we never actually got tothe real problem.
So, in order to do that, thetemptation for a consultant who
comes in and wants to establishthemselves.
They want to show people theyreally know what's going on, and
so they see one person open up.
They're demoing this crazyExcel spreadsheet with, like,

(01:14:10):
colored cells all over.
We've all seen it right Greensand reds and all kinds of stuff.
What's the temptation?
The temptation is to exaltmyself by potentially
denigrating what's here.
I can't believe you guys areusing this.
Oh my gosh, you guys have beenable to get along with this
right Now.
It's not always, sometimes it'sbehind closed doors or whatever

(01:14:31):
, but the point is is thatthere's the risk of even
accidentally denigratingsomeone's effort for the sake of
exalting the fact that we'rebringing a new solution and
we're doing it in.

Someone built that.

Jon Cline (01:14:44):
That's their whole job and we have to recognize
that, in fact, not only is ittheir whole job, but when they
were put into this position, theboss said sink or swim, figure
it out.
And this is the evidence andthe artifact of them figuring it
out.
And so not only should they notbe mocked, but they should be
applauded, and the businesshasn't been doing that.

(01:15:05):
The business has likelydisrespected them, saying what
is this crazy thing?
I don't even like to see it so.
Chaos to compliments is astrategy where we go into the
situation, one to put the peopleat ease and to validate the
hard work that they've done tobasically get to the point where
they can do what they werehired to do and whatever it is

(01:15:25):
that they've invented thatactually is getting the job done
.
We want to highlight specificaspects of that that are great.
That's a great insight, that'sa really good thing you're doing
for the customer.
Oh wow, I can't believe youspend so much time doing that so
that you can deliver on whatthe customer needs.
That's the first thing wevalidate that while we're doing

(01:15:46):
this, we are modeling to therest of the business that this
is the posture that we will beleading with in this project.
You've hired us or you'veeither hired me as a staff
person or as a consultant tolead this project.
This is the ethos by which wewill be leading this process.
We will be modeling that anddemonstrating it to everybody.

John, I'm going to jump in real quick.
Casey and I, casey's mygirlfriend, four years.
Casey and I talk about thissometimes and we call it a PTP
or a positive transitionalphrase, me being a dyed in the
wool, entj, just pick out anya-hole from any TV show.

(01:16:31):
It's me right.
Like it's Jon Hamm in Mad Men,it's Napoleon, it's Michael's
boss in the office.
It's like they can bowl peopleover and they can just be like,
yeah, no, like they might besmart, they might have really
good ideas, but they can bechallenged to recognize other

(01:16:52):
people in the moment beforethey're like trying to be the
smart guy or the smart gal inthe room.
So we call it PTP.
And now it's just like.
You know, she might saysomething and I'll be like, well
, blah, blah, blah, I'm going todo this, and she'll be like PTP
.
I'll be like, hey, that's areally great idea.
I like that it does this andthat I didn't even think about
that.
And it slows me down too.

(01:17:13):
Like it slows me down.
About an hour ago we weretalking about seeing, like, what
information are you actuallytaking?
And it'll, it slows you downand allows you to take in way
more information whilemaintaining really goodwill.
So this is just me saying likeI get it, yeah, I love it, and.

Jon Cline (01:17:34):
I want you to think about the dynamics in the room
because they're likely not theonly person who has something to
share or who is potentiallyembarrassed or has been mocked
previously about what they'vebeen doing.
So once they see that hey,here's a risk taker, they chose
to go first.
And now look at the way theSalesforce pro is guiding this
conversation, affirming them,validating that and, in fact,

(01:17:57):
finding future anchor points.
That's a future lesson we have,but essentially those anchor
points that we will want to putinto the future Salesforce
solution to maximize adoption,because it's something that
customer loves and it'ssomething that really is part of
the secret sauce of what theydeliver.
So we want to capture that andmake sure we don't denigrate it
in a rip and replace as thoughnothing in that is valuable.
There's a lot that's valuable inthere, though it might be

(01:18:19):
cloaked what I call it's a roughdiamond.
It's a rough diamond.
It's not yet been cut, but whenit's cut it's going to be
amazing and beautiful, and myjob is to not to discard rough
diamonds, even though they looklike rocks, right?
So when that's happening, theother people at the table who
were afraid initially to sharesomething, all of a sudden guess

(01:18:41):
what?
You know?
That's interesting because I,and now they, are encouraged and
all of a sudden we have thispopcorning and bubbling up of
latent innovation that thebusiness again a recon device
that the business has not beenwelcoming from these people
because they don't have respectfor them.
They don't think that they'reat the level of strategic

(01:19:03):
advisor or whatever it might be,but they are the frontline
experts.
They hear the customercomplaint every day.
They are absolutely the rightperson to bring this wisdom to
the table and we have to createthe environment to give them
that freedom.
So when they know, I want to benext up for chaos to compliments
.

They're going to line up and they're going to
just lay it all out and they'regoing to be like, hey, even
though I was the one who triedto make Salesforce work and I
couldn't do it.

Jon Cline (01:19:28):
I'm so happy that you're here and I'm so happy to
show you what I've done.
And I did this and I have thisExcel spreadsheet and this
access database and I have thislegal pad and I mean whatever,
and we just give compliments onall of that, no complaints,
because it's all raw materialsfull of rough diamonds.

John, thank you so much for sharing this.
This is wonderful insight intowhat People First Method does.
It clearly demonstrates you'vebeen through the ropes, man,
You've done it.
I imagine you've done a fairamount of investigation and
personal development yourself tobe able to even come to this.
Oh look, I'm.
I'm doing the chaos tocompliments right now.

(01:20:08):
It was unintentional but I am.
But, like you've clearly had tospend hours and years putting
this kind of informationtogether that you're able to
share it with people, share itwith our audience.
Today we are so grateful, andwe're really grateful for the
most gracious gift this show hasever got $28,000 worth of

(01:20:32):
education and training for ouraudience members.
We're excited about theSalesforce Career Show cohort
with your group.
At the very end of the showwe're going to flash those back
up on the stage.
Oh, there we go right now.
Thank you, Vanessa.
I want to take just a coupleminutes because we announced it
at the start of the show thatwe'd be sharing a little bit of
information from some polls thatwe've run recently, and I also

(01:20:55):
wanted to share just a smallamount of insight as to what's
going on in the Salesforceecosystem.
Now I will tell you I have notlooked at this today, but a key
metric that we track here atSalesforce staffing is how many
job orders are there that haveSalesforce in the title.
That's a pretty easy metric totrack and I've been tracking it

(01:21:18):
for years.
I know that we've probablyannounced some of this stuff
about four weeks ago in ouryear-end show.
And, by the way, folks, if youhaven't planned for 2025 yet, if
you haven't done that yet, Istrongly encourage you to check
the other video or the mostrecent podcast, where we share a
multitude of mindsets, tools,tactics, techniques for you to

(01:21:43):
get the most out of 2025.
So definitely check that out.
So I'm just going to share onepoll today.
We've got others.
I think that we can share thosein the next episode, which will
be airing two weeks from todayat 5.30 Eastern, 2.30 Pacific.
So we asked the audience inLinkedIn.
We asked, in your opinion, whatis the biggest advantage of

(01:22:05):
having a small team of A-plusplayers, and the options were
ability to attract additionaltalent, less internal drama,
reduced turnover or easier tomanage.
I'm kind of curious.
Before we go ahead and announcethe results, I'd like to hear
from John, Vanessa and Kim.
What do you think is thebiggest advantage?

(01:22:25):
Ability to attract additionaltalent, less internal drama,
reduced turnover or easier tomanage?
John, this is from thecompany's perspective, your
perspective.
There's an advantage of havinga small team of A-plus players
versus a larger team thatincorporates or includes a lot

(01:22:47):
of B and C players.
Sorry to sit in judgment, butlet's face it.
Not all employees are equal.
They just aren't.
Some people will run circlesaround others.
I'm a huge advocate of peoplespending more money on fewer
staff, but picking better staff,and I'm not just a fan of it.

(01:23:08):
So Steve Jobs, so are a lot ofvery, very successful people in
the world.
So what do you think is thegreatest advantage?
Anyone can pipe up.

Jon Cline (01:23:20):
Yeah, well you call on me, I'll answer.
I think it's absolutely thefirst one the ability to attract
good people, and I wouldinclude the attract and retain
good people, and that tends tosolve the other three, in my
opinion, because with goodpeople you have less drama, you
have a lot of these otheraspects and it means that your
customer feels that sense ofculture and values alignment
that your team does, which isgoing to be a big one.

Very good, thanks for sharing.
What about you, vanessa?

What was the second one again?

Less internal drama, reduced turnover and
easier to manage.

I think easier to manage Okay.

That's what I would have said too.

Yeah, I think when you've got a bunch of
A-plus players I was actuallyjust reading a post from Sarah
McNamara, who is a LinkedIninfluencer that I really like,
and saying how when you've gotthose rock star employees,
sometimes you just have to letthem do their thing, and when
you have a bunch of A-pluspeople together, they're going

(01:24:18):
to push each other justnaturally.
I think they will brainstorm,they will come up with things
that you didn't even think of,and so if you're trying to
overmanage those types of people, you're just going to hold back
.
Um, and so, of course, you haveto structure things in a way
and put systems in place so thatyou can focus their you know,
focus their, their, their,harness their energy, focus

(01:24:39):
their, their uh efforts.
But I think that's where themost value is.

Very good.
Well, I think they're all greatanswers and I'll show the
results.
It was 22% for ability toattract additional talent.
It was 8% for reduced turnover,27% selected easier to manage
and an overwhelming 43% choseless internal drama.

See, I don't know , I feel like when you've got a
bunch of A-plus players, youmight end up with more drama,
just because they all feel likethey're very good at what they
do, and so when there is abutting of heads, it's it's a
little bit, maybe morecomplicated.
You're not going to just havelike one leader and a bunch of
sheep that are like okay, cool,whatever that person says.

I can understand that when it comes to, say, an
NFL team, right, where they'resimply being judged on their
actual performance, but on thesidelines they're a fricking
nightmare.
Okay, like, we've all.
Like, everybody knows that iswhat happens and everybody knows
that getting rid of that is whythe Patriots, you know, had the
most killer dynasty of thiscentury.

(01:25:55):
Right, it was because they gotrid of that.
They got completely rid of it.
But I would I would pause itand just push back slightly to
say that if they are on the teamthat and they're behaving that
way, they are automatically notan A plus player, right?
So an A plus player does notnecessarily mean like, oh my God

(01:26:18):
, they're just like the greatestarchitect known known to man.
Right, that's certainly awonderful skill set to possess.
But are they really an A-plusplayer if they're pissing
everybody off while they'redoing it?
No, and if I'm interviewing andI'm picking up on that, if I'm
picking up a level of arroganceor resistance to others' ideas,

(01:26:42):
they're not gonna get a 111Arating from me.
And I do rank people.
Sorry if you don't like that,but I do it because I can't
remember everything.
We've got 80,000 people in thedatabase.
We have to do something right.
So I'm with you.
You have to watch out for starpower to a degree, like you can

(01:27:05):
you?
You have to watch out for starpower to a degree.
But star power and a plus uh, aplus team member Isn't the same
thing.
Does that make sense?

That's fair, I will add, though I mean I think
ultimately, you know, I getalong with my siblings, I can,
we're all a plus siblings, butwe're going to bicker Sometimes.
I'm having a really terribleday and then it just ruins
myicker.
Sometimes I'm having a reallyterrible day and then it just
ruins my week.
So I guess it's fair that Idon't think drama is unavoidable

(01:27:31):
.
I don't think drama isunavoidable.
You do not have the ability toavoid it ultimately, at the end
of the day, the reason why Istill you don't think you can
avoid drama.

Are you still seeing drama?

a hundred percent of the time I think, I
think drama is a very strongword for what I'm describing
here, but like even bickering orlike a really heated
conversation.
As far as I'm concerned, to bea little drama.
So again, part of it is likedefinitions here.
Maybe is where I think you'reright, but ultimately,

(01:28:05):
management means that, likethere's some cohesiveness and
everyone's going with the flow,some of my like best work has
happened where, like I was likefive steps ahead nearly I was
like two steps ahead of mycolleague who was working on
another random part of it andjust like, somehow, without
talking, we knew, oh, you'regoing to take up this part.
Well, I'm going to take up thispart, and it's obviously easy

(01:28:28):
to manage if you don't have todelegate.
So that was my logic going intoit.

Yeah, yeah, look, all reasonable, and I think it
opens up the door for a verylong conversation.
I mean, I could sit around andtalk about this for another hour
, but we're not going to.
Those were the results, and Ithink in my experience look,
I've always run not always, Ihave deigned to run a team of A

(01:28:56):
players for many years and wehave zero drama.
And we have zero drama.
None, I mean, if anyone'screating drama, it's me, you
know so.
But as far as, like, the teamgoes, nope, no drama, no
infighting, nothing like that,because everyone to be on the
team has to be an exceptionalcommunicator to begin with, and

(01:29:20):
so the way that they'recommunicating is is highly
effective, very inoffensive andsupportive and understanding,
but still they're able to maketheir point and put their foot
down and be strong about wherethey stand.
You know, if it's necessary, andI think too, if you hold, look,

(01:29:40):
anytime we start to internalizethings, make things about us.
That's where drama comes from.
Right, we're feeding into somesort of fear, right, I'm not
enough, could be one.
Or I need this recognition,right, somehow I built up like,
if I do this, I'm going to getthis certain amount of
recognition, and that's going tobe key to my elevating, to my

(01:30:03):
next stage, or making me theobvious choice for the promotion
or whatever.
And so when we start to lose agrip on that, when we're seeing
it start to slip away, thenwe're living in a state of
anxiety or fear, right, and thenwe begin behaving in a state of
anxiety and fear and then dramahappens, right, I mean it just
does.

(01:30:23):
But when you've got people whoare thick-skinned, by the way, I
think being an A-plus playermeans you have to have thick
skin.
I don't know anyone who'sachieved a high level of success
that hasn't had to develop alayer where things will just
bounce off of them to a degree.

(01:30:44):
Right, they might go home andthey might feel it later on,
right, but at least for like thepurposes of team communication
and interaction, they're able tolet certain things slide.
Anytime you get a lot.
I don't know that there are alot of thin skinned A plus
players.
Let me just put it that way.
Right, because thin skinnedpeople tend to resist

(01:31:11):
recommendations, they tend toresist constructive criticism or
feedback.
They can view it as an attackinstead of an opportunity for
improvement.
And I can tell you I know thisbecause I'm talking to.
I don't know how many peopleevery single week I'll recognize
something's'm talking to.
I don't know how many peopleevery single week I'll recognize
something's going on.
I talked to a guy today and hewas doing this in his chair.
Just subtle little thing, justa little wiggle.

(01:31:36):
Just a little wiggle in hischair, a little swivel in the in
the butt, and I happen to notthink that that's a very
professional thing to do duringan interview, right, I don't
care that he's doing it with me,but I do care if he's going to
do it with clients, right?
And so I first ask permissionAre you open to feedback?
Yes, you might not like what Ihave to say, are you okay with

(01:31:58):
that?
And they'll say yeah, no, tellme, josh, josh, no, tell me, I
want to know, you probably know,so tell me.
And sometimes they're like Idon't know.
I guess it kind of depends onwhat you have to say.
Well, now I know somethingabout these people, right, and
I'm typing up what I know aboutthem in that moment so that I
know what kind of environmentcan I actually put this person

(01:32:20):
in, or can I not put them intoany environment that my clients
possess?
Right, and I shared.
I said look, when you wigglearound a little bit, it's a
self-soothing thing.
That's what we do, you know.
Like it's like rubbing yourhands, it's, you know, touching,
you know scratching your ear,it's like playing, fiddling with
your hair and when it's notflirting, right, so like there's
all these little things that,excuse me, me, that we do to

(01:32:46):
self-soothe.
But what it does is it showssomeone that someone's
uncomfortable, they're trying to, they're trying to soothe
themselves, and that can showI'll just say it can show
weakness.
Is it really weak?
I don't think so.
There's nothing wrong with it.
But could it show a strangerthat?
And that person won't even beable to articulate why they just

(01:33:07):
don't want to hire that person.
They won't even be able to knowwhat it is.
I can see it because I do itall the time, but they won't
even know.
And so I'm always asking thatpermission and I'm always
shocked at how many people arelike I don't know.
I guess it kind of depends.
Like, what, what's going tohappen here?
Like I don't know.
I guess it kind of depends.
What's going to happen here,what are you going to do?
You want to hire the peoplethat are like yeah, tell me.

(01:33:33):
What can I do better?
I'm a glutton for this.
Tell me, help me be better.
I don't know everything.
I think I'm really good andhere's why.
But I also know that I've gotthis much further to go, and the
only reason why I'm even herewhere I am right now is because
I've kept an open ear and I'velistened to people that I think
probably know something that Idon't Right, and so if we're

(01:33:54):
talking about A players, I thinkA players always have that kind
of attitude.
Right, all right.
Sorry to slam the final word onthis, but thanks everybody.
This has been a wonderful show.
Let's do a quick to say no bysaying yes.
We learned about turning chaosinto compliments.

(01:34:27):
I love both of these topics, bythe way.
John.
Like great selection for ourprogram.
Today we learned that ourhighly esteemed and lovable
Vanessa Grant is going to be aguest on our show this year,
which we're really excited about, but by the end of April we'll
be vacating her seat and givingsomeone else a turn to co-host

(01:34:47):
the show, and you can learn moreabout that at joshforcecom
forward slash co.
-host.
We're also giving away $28,000worth of leadership and
communication training.
The promo code for that isSFCS2025PFM.
That's Salesforce Career Show2025.
People First Method.
We also I'm going to throw up,not throw up, I'm going to show

(01:35:11):
the link.
It's joshforcecom forward slashcohort and that's where you can
go.
Make sure that you're includingsome information about yourself
so that John can make a verygood, calculated decision about
whether or not you're going tobe an excellent addition to the
Salesforce career show cohort atPeople First Method.
Okay, and we also got introducedto Kim Barnes.

(01:35:31):
Kim, you haven't been on theshow before, but I'm glad that
you're on today.
You're welcome back anytime.
Thanks, everybody for your timetoday.
Thank you to our audience and,just as a favor, if you could do
us a favor, I'm going to investa little bit into the Josh
force channel.
Right, I've got my, my, my guy,heart, uh, heart Bosch.
I can't say his name, but he'sa nice guy.
I've known him for years.
He's going to be doing somestuff to the to the um YouTube

(01:35:55):
channel.
Go ahead and sign up.
Go ahead and subscribe to Joshforce, right.
That way, you can access thesevideos at any time.
We'd love to get to over athousand subscribers this year.
Right now it's I don't knowwhat it is five, 600, something
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So let's make a little bit of apush.
If you've enjoyed this content,go ahead and subscribe.
I'd really appreciate it.

(01:36:15):
But more importantly, I justthink it'll help you stay
updated on our latest contentand with that we'll be back in
two weeks.
Subject unknown because latestcontent and with that we'll be
back in two weeks.
Subject unknown because we'vehad to move our next guest,
whitney Ferris.
She will be visiting with us atsome point this winter.
She's a wonderful person.
She's got a lot to share.
But we'll be updating you bynext week what the content of

(01:36:39):
our next show is going to be andwe hope to see everybody here
again.
Bye for now, everybody.
Have a wonderful, wonderfulweek.

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