Don't Quit Your Job. Do This First!

Episode Transcript
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Announcer (00:06):
And now the number one audio program that helps you
to hire, get hired and soarhigher in the Salesforce
ecosystem.
It's the Salesforce Career Showwith Josh Matthews and Vanessa
Grant.

Josh Matthews (00:23):
Vanessa Grant.
Okay, guys, everybody, welcometo the very late start of the
Salesforce Career Show.
We just had a 20-minutepractice round because I did a
bonehead Josh Matthews thing anddidn't click the second button
that you have to hit to go live.
So I apologize to all of you.

(00:44):
You might have to listen tothis on the podcast or on the
stream on YouTube down the roador on our channel.
So deep apologies if you hungout and you're still listening.
Thank you so much.
So here we go.
We're going to go ahead and getcracking.
Welcome to the Salesforce CareerShow.
I'm your host, josh Matthews,with me is Vanessa Grant, and we

(01:05):
have four incredible guests,including my friend, tom Graber.
Tom has been a recruiter formany, many years.
We became friends andcolleagues back in our Robert
Half Days in the early 2000s andhe used to be talent
acquisition for Salesforce.
We also have Brandon Stein.
Welcome, brandon.
You guys know Brandon.
He's been on a couple of ourshows.

(01:26):
We've got Reid Marquand, who'sbeen a regular contributor over
the past year, and we've gotJosh LaQuire, one of the
smartest people I know.
So welcome everybody to theshow.
Today we are talking about whatshould you do if you want to
quit.
That's the deal.
Should you stay or should yougo?
And there are a number ofreasons why you should stay, a

(01:46):
number of reasons why you shouldgo.
We're going to explore all ofthem and, more importantly,
we're going to provide someguidelines to hopefully help you
really make the best decisionthat you possibly can.
That's going to help you in theshort term, near term, but is
also career focused, and by thatI mean the long haul right.

(02:08):
Careers are a marathon, so doyou need to bail out in the
middle of this marathon for good?
Go for it.
It's called retirement, but ifyou're going to stay in the race
, you've got to pace yourselfand make some good decisions,
including hydration and workingfor good companies.
So we're going to help you withthat and with that, we'll just
do a couple quick updates Oneabout our contest from last

(02:29):
episode, about the SalesforceMVP program and what you can do
to support your favoriteSalesforce professional, and
then we're going to go ahead anddive into all this quick, quick
, quick talk.
Okay, ahead and dive into allthis quick, quick, quick talk.
Okay.
So, vanessa, can you share witheverybody when the last date is
for registering or recommendingsomeone for the MVP recognition

(02:53):
?

Vanessa Grant (02:54):
Yep, the last day that you can nominate a
Salesforce MVP is February 7th,and you can always self-nominate
yourself as well, so you couldeither nominate somebody else
that you really admire in thecommunity, somebody that you
feel has contributed a lot, or,if you're like I, need to get
acknowledged because I do a lotand you know, if you, if I, if
you can't toot your own horn,then who can Toot your own?

horn.
Yeah, I mean, you know, toot,toot, toot.
Well, I think that's great.
I've definitely got.
My recommendation has beensubmitted.
I put out a post.
I think we got three or fourmore folks who put in some
submissions, Pretty pleased withsugar on top, let's send a
beautiful, lovely contributor toour show for many, many years,
vanessa Grant.

(03:35):
Next month is her last month asa regular contributor.
We want to send her off withthe best chance possible to
receive an MVP award for all ofher hard work over the many
years that she's served, on herown dime and on her own time,
thousands and thousands ofSalesforce people.
So thank you, vanessa, and ifyou would like to contact me,

(03:56):
you can ping me on LinkedIn.
It's just forward slash, joshuaMatthews, with two Ts.
You can ping me and I will getyou some information.
That makes it much easier foryou to go ahead and make that
submission happen.
Next update is going to bearound our contest which we held
with Mr John Klein with PeopleFirst Leadership, and John has

(04:16):
filled up the queue with 12winners $28,000 worth of
leadership and communicationeducation.
I actually took a look at thelist and happened to know one of
them.
He's a great guy.
I think he's going to get a tonout of it, and we'll probably
do a little once a month update,maybe have John back on, or
even some of these folks who areon his program, who are going

(04:40):
to get better at theircommunication, leadership and
therefore, their careers.
They are investing in theircareers, and if you're listening
to this show, that means thatyou're investing in your career
too, and we appreciate you.
By the way, if you happen tolike this show, give us a thumbs
up on your favorite platform.
Comments always help too, andif you'd like to actually apply

(05:00):
to either be a co-host on thisshow or to be a guest of a guest
spot, you can visitsalesforcecareershowcom.
We'll describe our upcomingshows and there are all these
little forms that you can fillout for any of that stuff.
Okay, at the end of the show,if there's time, or a little bit
later on, I may share a couplelittle updates to one of our
programs early in the year,which was all about efficiencies

(05:22):
, time management, planning andgetting the most out of your
2025.
So stay tuned and we'll coverthat, but first we're going to
go ahead and cover some of thecore reasons why people quit
their job.
We're just going to crankthrough this so that we can get
to the good, meaty stuff.
If you're listening and you'veever quit or you've been
thinking about quitting, youalready know what your reasons

(05:42):
are.
Here are the top five reasons.
This has been vetted.
I ran it through perplexity AI.
I double triple checked so thisis pretty accurate.
Number one reason I can't growhere Raise your hand on the show
, let's see.
Anyone have to leave a jobbecause they could no longer
progress.
And I've got one, two, three,four, five, okay.

(06:02):
So everyone but Vanessa hasleft a job because they couldn't
grow anymore.
How about this one?
They don't pay me enough.
Anyone ever leave because thecompensation wasn't in line with
what you felt you earned, youdeserved.
I've got one, two, three, four,okay.
And then five, okay, five,another five.
This is this is hitting.
How about I need a better worklife?
Brandon's raising his hand thistime in our little practice

(06:23):
session.
He didn't raise his hand.
Okay, five, another five.
This is hitting.
How about I need a better worklife.
Brandon's raising his hand thistime in our little practice
session.
He didn't raise his hand, sohis arm's working again, so
that's good to see.
So I got another five on that.
This one which is a little bitcontroversial is the environment
is toxic.
Yep, we've got a couple who'veleft there.
Four out of the six have leftbecause of that.
There are four out of the sixI've left because of that.

(06:43):
And the big one leadershipsucks.
Yeah, we got double hands.
Yeah, one, two, three, four,yeah, five.
Okay, so we are all, I think,either very close to 40 or
getting darn close to 40.
So we've got about a 20-yearrange of people here on the live
show.
By the way, if you're listeningto this podcast and you would

(07:05):
like to see what we look likewhile we're chatting in all our
six little boxes here, you arewelcome to join us on either the
YouTube channel or you canvisit the recording on LinkedIn.
Just connect with me and I'llshare it with you, or you can
just search for it and it willprobably show up.
So what I'd like to do now,folks, is just dive in to topic

(07:27):
number one, or the reason numberone, which is I can't grow here
.
Right, I can't grow here.
Let's start with Mr Tom Graber.
Tom, you're a recruiter.
You've interviewed thousands ofpeople.
You've interviewed, I'mimagining, hundreds of
Salesforce professionals.
In your career, you've been intech.

(07:47):
When I first interviewed youover 20 years ago, or about 20
years ago, you were an ITdirector at the time.
So you've been involved intechnology for many, many years
and I'm kind of curious, as arecruiter, where you stand.
Do you believe that I Can'tGrow?
Here is the number one reasonthat people cite for wanting to
exit their role.

Tom Graber (08:08):
Yeah, and I think it has multiple dimensions.
I think when I've been trackingthrough various ATS systems
that I've set up, becoming atalent leader and the ability to
learn and grow is always one ofthe top ones.
It's up there with culture,with how the team is constructed

(08:31):
, and that really is aboutcommunication and equity.
They want to contribute tosomething bigger themselves.
They believe in mentorship andwhen you get down to it because
when you look at the competitivenature for something like
software engineering, they'reall relatively going to pay
pretty well but beingacknowledged in the ability to

(08:51):
learn and grow I mean look atthe top engineers in the world
for whatever company orconsultants, in that they kind
of wake up and live and breathethat ability to learn more, not
just from an added value, butit's just innate in them.

Absolutely.
Those are good points.
Yeah, go ahead.
You got something else to share, go for it.

Tom Graber (09:15):
No, no, it's just really.
I think it's the top people intheir field always want to
continually learning.

It's not like I know everything.

Tom Graber (09:26):
I'm just going to write it out from here.

Yep, mr Stein, mr Brandon Stein, what can
companies do to ensure thatthey're helping their employees
to grow, grow their career, growtheir responsibilities and
their revenue and lifestyle?

Brandon Stein (09:44):
Yeah, I think stretch assignments right.
You have to trust youremployees implicitly and sort of
trust until there's reasons notto trust them and that comes
from leadership, right.
I think that leadershipimplicitly needs to provide that
leash and runway and it goesback to those points earlier
right, giving thoseresponsibilities and stretch

(10:04):
roles right and fostering thatgrowth and inspiration and
stretch roles right.
And I think if people feelmotivated and the right
incentives and carrots are inplace to allow people to spread
their wings, it really startsfrom the top down right and
people lead by example and ifthey see leadership inspiring
with those roles and thosecarrots and incentives, they'll

(10:26):
spread their wings and followleadership that creates that
culture of trust and then thoseopportunities to really stretch
and grow.

I agree.
Anyone else have some ideas andthoughts on what companies can
do to keep people and reallyoffer them a path of career
development?

Josh LeQuire (10:44):
I think you can do this through your performance
review cycles that you may haveat a company, and do this in a
way where you're recognizing andgiving accolades for the work
that was done, and just thesimple act of recognition where
there's hey, good job.
Or look at all you did, youknow, just highlighting that
gives people encouragement andvalidation to say my work here

(11:07):
has value and I did something.
And then in the second part ofthat, you can also use that as
an opportunity to say well,you've been here for three
months.
Threeently, proactively workwith your colleague or your team
to map that out and achievethat vision and actually follow

(11:33):
through on that.
Not just say it, but do it.

The follow through is key, right?
I mean, everybody, like so manycompanies, have some sort of OD
group or HR group that's aroundcareer development.
But people can be veryresistant to some of those
programs.
They can include tuitionreimbursement, certification
reimbursement.
You can ask to go toconferences to learn extra

(11:55):
things, or maybe get a small,get some petty cash so that you
can invest in an AI trainingcourse or something like that.
But whose responsibility, mrMarquand?
Whose responsibility is theircareer growth?
Is it their boss or theircompany, or is it them?

Reed Marquand (12:12):
I think it's someone in HR.
No, it's your own Right.
Yeah, I've been thinking a lotabout your topic today, josh,
and what I would say, what Ishouldn't say, sort of thing.

You, can say whatever you want.
One of them?

was you really have to be the champion of your
own career?
I mean the squeaky wheel,whatever you want to do, there's
there's extremes to everything,right, but I think if you want
to excel, then you're going to.
You know you're going to haveto look for those challenges,
you're going to have to step up,you're going to have to offer
something.
One thing I was just thinkingabout from the last question was
people can do brown bag lunches, they can cross train, other

(12:48):
things like that, whether it'snecessary at the company for
coverage or whatnot, but you canalways offer something up.
Say hey, at 1215 over lunchhour, I'm going to be showing a
demo of what I built last week.
Whoever wants to attend canattend, right.
So I think some of those thingsreally really highlight the

(13:10):
abilities within a company.

But coming back to it, you really have to
self-promote to a point.
Yes, self-promote, be proactive.
And I'll tell you, like Tom andI we were both I mean, I think
I might've I don't think I had apromotion yet, but when when he
joined the team.
So basically he joined Roberthalf technology in in Portland.
I was right, I was on thesoftware side, he was on the
tech or IT side, you know netnetwork systems, things like

(13:32):
that, and we each had our ownlittle team.
But for us to get thosepromotions, do you remember what
we did, tom?
We we set up, you know, someeight week MBTI training for the
entire office.
We just joined at the hip, weput it together, we delivered it
and we started dressing sharper.
We just started to act like, westarted to dress like we were

(13:55):
in that role already and then westarted to assume
responsibilities.
We looked for where is there anabdication of responsibility,
right?
A bang on about this everyother episode.
What Jordan Peterson says ifyou want to grow, look for where
responsibility has beenabdicated, assume that
responsibility and then produceit right.
So I've got a few things here,just three basic points that you

(14:19):
can do.
Okay, if you can't grow yourcareer before you quit your job.
One have you had an honestconversation with your manager
about your goals?
Have you asked them?
You know I would always go toyour manager first and then HR,
like kind of way down the road,right that relation.
Once you start getting HRinvolved, it can put a little

(14:41):
bit of a wedge between you andyour manager.
So if you have a decent, itdoesn't have to be a great
relationship, by the way, itdoesn't even have to be close
relationship, but you have tohave a relationship, one where
you can go in, you can talk tothem and just share.
Hey, I've been a consultant herefor two and a half years and

(15:01):
I'd like to talk about.
I believe I'm ready to take onmore responsibilities, more
learning.
My real goal it took me a whileto figure it out is I want to
be a solution architect and Iwant to know if one.
I want you to know that that'swhat I want.
I think it's important that youknow that.
And then I wanted to ask youwhat will it take, what can I do
here to give myself the bestshot?

(15:24):
And, by the way, I'd love to bea solution architect here, and
I know I'm not there yet.
I'd love to do it here.
Can you help me get there?
So you just have to have anhonest conversation.
We kind of talked about numbertwo, which is just take on new
projects.
Reid, I think you brought thisup and I think it's great.
Take on new projects, take onchallenges to prove that you're

(15:45):
ready for more.
If you're on a team let's saythere's five people on your team
and five people have the samejob and you're not the one doing
more you're either moreefficient, you produce more, you
solve more complex problems,you're the go-to for the client
communications.
You're the person that they'retapping hey, can you check this

(16:05):
email before I send it?
Hey, can you sit in on thisdiscovery call with me?
If people aren't doing thatalready, the chances of getting
a promotion aren't going to beextremely high, unless you're in
a very siloed tech world andwhoever's the decision maker has
seen it.
But if you're on a team, you'vegot to be better than the rest
of the team or you're not.

(16:25):
The obvious choice, right?
And then the last one is haveyou taken advantage of every
available tool mentorshipprograms, certifications,
tuition, reimbursement have youdemonstrated a willingness to
invest unpaid time to get betterat your job so that you can be

(16:46):
worth more for your time.
It's really straightforward.
And if the answer is no to anyof these, we can't put the
pressure on the company.
We've got to own it.
Growth starts with you, right,take control.
And, by the way, if you'regoing to not fix this at this
company, you're going to dragthose problems into the next
company.

(17:07):
I've got a candidate right now.
He's got a job offer through me, through my client.
He wants a leadership role.
He has exhibited leadershipqualities, by the way.
He's a great guy.
I think he's fantastic.
Okay, we're going to offer hima little bit more money and

(17:28):
we're going to offer himinvestment in his ability to
become a leader.
There's no guarantee.
He has to prove it.
People have to start reachingout to him.
If they're not doing that, insix months he might be stuck as
a senior consultant instead of alead, or senior managers,
junior solution architect orwhat have you.
So he's willing to take thatrisk to leave a company because

(17:50):
he knows that he's going to beinvested in Now.
He hasn't accepted the offeryet.
Jury is out, so we'll find out,hopefully tonight.
Maybe he's even watching theshow, I don't know, but we'll
find out soon enough.
But that's the kind ofsituation he can stay.
He's been given kind of apromise hey, down the road,
we're going to make you a leader, but nothing's in writing, you
know.
Versus another company that'sgoing to be like yes, we'll

(18:12):
invest in you, but you stillhave to do a great job or you
don't get the job.

Fair enough, yeah , yeah, any any stories, guys,
any experience I was going to.
Yeah, I was going to say acouple of things.
One, I think, yes, the whole,like find places where
responsibility has beenabdicated, like that's, that's
great and all.
But I think what I, I certainlywhat I encourage folks that I

(18:36):
do mentorship for, is know whereyou're going, at least have the
have your, your, your, yourNorthern light kind of thing.
Cause, yes, opportunities aregoing to present themselves all
the time, particularly if you'relike I want opportunities,
people you know well, ok, youwant some opportunities, here's
an opportunity to do this,here's an opportunity to do that
.
But I think there's somethingdifferent between proactively

(18:59):
guiding your career versus justtaking opportunities as they
come and kind of letting otherfolks maybe push you in other
directions toward your career.
So that's one thing.
And as far as stories go, I'llthrow a couple real quick.
And that's where you know Ithink, yes, I've done a lot to
you know, say, yes, I will takeon all these responsibilities

(19:20):
and these are the things that Iwant to do and goals and all
that other stuff.
But I think there's also aplace for managers that, if they
want to encourage the growth oftheir folks and also keep their
folks.
I had, you know, my first boss.
Really, I stayed at this companyfor like 17 years.
I started as an intern and whenI left, 17 years later, as the

(19:40):
VP of business ops.
But it was from the time I wasearly in that career that my my
boss she, for some reason, she,she saw me in a way that people
you know, I guess.
See, she saw a lot in me and Iremember she said during one of
our reviews that she really sawme on a path to being a COO and
so she started getting meinvolved in the finances of the

(20:02):
company in my mid twenties andthat got me on the path to being
the VP.
I was before I even turned 30.
And then I also, later on in mycareer, when I was contracting,
I actually had somebody dropthe five brands so I could go to
Trailhead Academy and get myadmin certification in a week
and I'd been doing Salesforcefor close to a decade at that

(20:24):
point.
But somebody actually investingin me because they saw what I
could accomplish, or just alittle bit more technical, was a
big boon.

That's great.
That's really good stuff,vanessa, and we're all glad that
someone believed in you andpushed you into that.
Get certified in one week thingthat's awesome.
That's awesome and hard to do.
Josh LaQuire knows all aboutthat.
Go ahead, reed.

Yeah, I think one thing people may look at like
oh, I can't, I can't dropeverything, get a certification
one week and all that stuff.
You don't always have to do thebiggest bang possible.
Sometimes it's justfacilitating conversations, like
you do here, Josh.
You're not providing theentirety of the show, You're
bringing in together a cast ofcharacters and trying to help

(21:10):
people with their Salesforcecareers.
So sometimes the biggestinitiative you can take is just
trying to facilitate and makesomething happen, not
necessarily oh, I got to gobuild this great demo that I
have no idea how to build.
Yeah, bud.
I'm a big believer in creatingcenters of excellence, and most
of those start pretty small.
They're not so excellent at thebeginning.
So, anything you do to gatherintelligence and help your

(21:34):
fellow workers or your clientsor what have you.
I think that's a great place tostart.
You don't have to go with thebiggest thing ever because some
people can't eat the elephant.
If you will, they got toimagine in smaller bites.

You know what I love that and it's so true.
I mean, look, when I thinkabout good leaders, what do they
do?
They elevate people with them.
A great leader is like hightide and it lifts all boats, and
if you want to grow into aleadership role or just grow
your career, well, you can do acouple of things.
One you can attach yourself togreat leadership and so, where

(22:09):
you are, you might be havingbehavior of maybe you're a
consultant and you're reportingto a solution architect or
working side by side, and thatindividual is not exhibiting the
best practices or bestqualities of a solution
architect.
You should definitely ask towork with someone else or leave
the company, because you'll justdevelop the bad habits yourself
.
And if you can be in a positionas a consultant to maybe help a

(22:33):
junior admin or someone who'snew, when you can demonstrate
that you can help elevatesomeone else's career, knowledge
, skillset, communicationabilities, recognition I mean
honest to God, guys, half ofthis stuff is just hey, josh
LaQuire, congratulations on XYZright, and I just wanted to
announce that to the wholecompany on Slack because you

(22:53):
just crushed it.
You can be the janitor and Idon't know how many janitors are
on Slack, but in this case, thejanitor's on Slack and they're
pushing out a message to theentire company about how awesome
Josh LaQuire is right andthat's fantastic.
People see that.
They know that you're going tobe a force of positivity,
encouragement, so it's reallygood stuff.

(23:14):
We're going to jump into numbertwo.
Number two is they don't pay meenough, so you're underpaid.
And I'm going to start this oneoff.
Before we go around Robin andjust say you're underpaid, prove
it.
Like how do you know Right?
Was it water cooler talk?
Did you get on salarycom andactually believe that stuff?

(23:36):
Did you look at Mason Frank'ssalary guide and actually
believe that stuff?
Like, where are you gettingyour information from?
How good was your prompt?
When you asked chat, cheap PTthat barely accesses current
data anyway, did you go toperplexity?
Did you verify?
Did you double check it?
And, by the way, did youevaluate yourself?

(23:57):
You might be gay.
Let's say you're making$120,000 in your job and you
think that you're underpaidbecause your friend is making
$135,000 for the same title at adifferent SI partner.
Okay, here's a story.
I've got another offer outtoday.
That is for a company thatspecializes in small SI.

(24:18):
They have a very focusedspecialty and they offer 35-hour
work weeks.
Guess what?
Whoever accepts that job?
Our candidate accepts that job.
He is taking a pay cut for thisjob because he's going to go
from 55 hours of work or alittle bit more to I don't know

(24:38):
what it is, I don't even want toshare, but he's going to take a
pay cut to take this solutionarchitect gig.
But he's done at noon on Fridayand they don't take calls and
you don't work weekends, and atfive o'clock it's done.
Everyone can wait.
So we need to really draw in allthe information.
How do you know you'reunderpaid?

(24:59):
Prove it.
Prove it to yourself first.
And here's another thing proveit.
Prove it to yourself first,right.
And here's another thing.
A reason such as like well, mykid's going to private school,
now I need to make more money.
Or you know I I'm taking upgolf and that's 600 bucks a
month, you know?
Or whatever it is like.
These are not valid reasons.
I'm sorry your car broke down.
You need to buy one.

(25:20):
You don't deserve a raise,right?
That's not what it's based on,brandon.
What are some other things thatpeople should probably consider
before they quit becausethey're not getting paid enough?
And there's a real obvious onehere, but I'm kind of curious
what you think off the top ofyour head.

I mean those are all trade-offs, right, josh?
That are personal, right?
You want to go to privateschool or make those personal
decisions.
Those are not your employer'sproblems, right?
Those are your personaldecisions.
I mean you can collect data, dobenchmarks, talk to your friends
, right?
We all talk and have peers inindustry and there's no better
evidence out there in the marketthan actually going to the

(25:57):
market and assessing your value,right?
And if you're interviewing andyou're talking to Josh Matthews
and other opportunities andyou're collecting data points
and you have interviews andyou're talking to Josh Matthews
and other opportunities andyou're collecting data points
and you have interviews and youhave offers, like there's no
better evidence than an offer ortwo or three to come back with
and say, okay, this is my market, this is what the market is
saying I'm worth.
Sometimes it's good to justhave that validation in the
market and sort of use that as abenchmark.

(26:19):
I'm not saying you have to usethat to go back to your employer
and say you know here's kind ofwhere, where I know.
I'm not saying you have to usethat to go back to your employer
and say you know, here's kindof where I know I'm at in the
market.
But it sometimes is good justto know deep down inside, like
what you could go get in themarket.
Now, if you're at the pointwhere you are thinking of
leaving or you have acompetitive offer out in the
market and your employer iscalling your bluff and saying,
hey, I don't think you're worththat, you can say, actually, you

(26:41):
know, I do have an offer forthe same.
You know, for a manager titlefor 20 grand more.
And here it is, here's thepaper, like there's no better
proof than something in writing.
But before you get to thatpoint, it is helpful sometimes
just to kind of feel the marketand I had an early mentor in my
career that told me it is veryhelpful every two to three years
just to kind of assess themarket and kind of see where

(27:02):
you're at, just kind ofunderstand the data every couple
of years, just to kind of knowwhere the market's at, just to
kind of know where you stand.

That's right, and we've had a lot of fluctuations
the last few years, haven't we.
Yeah, exactly, it's just kindof, it's just kind of good to
calibrate and kind of know right, if it, if it is a good time to
make the basics, have you evenasked for a raise before you

(27:29):
decide to quit for more money,and how do you even ask for a
raise?
Yeah Well, you listened to thepodcast episode that tells you
We've got that.

Tom Graber (27:38):
Yeah, I think, before we get there.
Yes, Having an openconversation.
I think this is with the quitor conquer thing.
Hopefully you have a leaderthat is a good mentor to you as
well and cares about yourtrajectory.
That's one of the things thatkeeps people there the longest.
And I agree with what Brandonwas saying about checking the

(27:59):
waters.
I also think it's important tocalibrate.
I also think it's important tocalibrate.
So, for the example of someonesaying hey, my three friends are
Salesforce admins and I knowthey got jobs at XYZ and PDQ
companies and they're making Xand they work for large

(28:27):
enterprises with a verycomplicated deployment, with
lots of moving parts, lots ofintegrations, and you're a
company of 120 people that isusing Salesforce to its best for
what you're doing and you maybe the most knowledgeable person
at your company for Salesforceat your company.
However, your friends mightwork for companies of 20,000
people or larger and they mighthave more complicated systems.

Yeah, they get higher bill rates, they make
more money.
And by the way, I mean, brendan, you're a former Deloitte guy,
right?
I am yeah, absolutely yeah soyou know the Sunday to Thursday
flight schedule that you'regoing to be walking away from
family.
There are all these nuancesaround.
Well, what are their benefits?
You can look at the dollar.

(29:11):
My base salary is this Okay,but you get 20% bonus.
They get up to 5% bonus, right.
Or you get 100% free healthcare.
They're paying $6,000 a year,right.
You get tuition reimbursement.
They get certificationreimbursement.
You can go get an MBA for halfthe price.
They're going to get 300 bucksa couple of times a year.
It's all trade-offs.

I go back to that trade-off.
People may look on the surfacehey, you make a lot of money.
But I say, hey, I'm working 80,90 hours a week.
That's a trade-off thateventually drove me out of the
big four because I didn't wantthat lifestyle.
But people on the surface maysay, hey, that's the
compensation I want.
So different times in your lifewhere you may want that type of
opportunity Exactly.

And Vanessa.
Let me just ask Vanessasomething here.
We're going to keep thingsmoving fast here.
So, vanessa, talk to me aboutmaybe your experience or some
insight around, like just thequestion have you earned a raise
?
You know you want to raise.
Have you earned it?
We kind of talked about thiswith career growth, but why
would it be any different forthis, this reason, to leave as

(30:14):
well?

Have you earned a raise?
Well, I mean, I think, andcertainly we've talked here
about how it's important totrack your accomplishments
regularly and be able toquantify.
So I remember going to batactually for my team and I was
trying to go to my boss and say,you know, we need more budgets
so that I can pay my teammembers more.

(30:37):
And a lot of that was, hey, Ijust pulled the numbers from
Salesforce, this is how many ofthis thing that we processed in
this year and then the next yearwe've had a X percentage of
this and saying stuff like that,does you know, along with all
the additional responsibilitiesor whatever it might be to help
build that case, but you have tobe able to build the case.

(30:57):
I mean, of course I would sayjust existing in your job is
probably not the best route toget that significant raise.
But if we're talking about,like you know, the whole, one of
the reasons that certainly Iwas compelled to leave once I
should have but didn't, but nowI'm much better about doing that

(31:18):
is I remember I'd been at acompany for so long that every
time somebody new came in withat the same level that I was,
they were making tens ofthousands of dollars more than
me because I'd been at thecompany for so long.
And that's when I realized, oh,I've got to.
Actually, if I don't sayanything, I'm just going to get
the 3% raise every year and goyay, didn't add up in the long

(31:41):
run.

It's a real thing , guys.
You know it often happens thatthe market will change, so you
get.
So there's kind of a couple.
There's a lot of forces at play.
I'll just kind of share two ofthem.
So the first one is you come in, you're new.
We talked about this last fall.
You come in, you're new andthree, four years later they

(32:04):
still look at you like you know.
Maybe you're 25 years old whenyou took a job.
You know you've been with thecompany three and a half years.
You're going to grow asignificant amount in your 20s,
probably more so than in your50s.
It depends on you know what youput into it.
20 somethings in their firstjobs tend to put a lot into it
or else whatever.

(32:24):
They bail and do something else.
But the ambitious ones willlearn a lot.
They're starting from noknowledge and they're capturing
tons of information quickly.
So they're going to adapt veryquickly and they're going to
grow.
And then the managers look atthem.
They still see the little25-year-old.
They can still see them as newand that's why there's a lot of

(32:45):
movement in their 20s.
It just happens because theyneed to grow and they have a
desire to grow.
They want to grow fast, but thecompanies that hire them, that
take a risk on these new folksthey might even invest in them
don't actually have the budgetor don't have the vision to see
that this person is now on theopen market worth 120 grand
instead of 60, the 3% raiseisn't going to cut it.

(33:07):
Thanks for the 10K bonus.
I'm 50K behind.
I'm three and a half yearsdoing this stuff.
I did just graduate from TalentStackers yesterday.
Guys, I'm crushing it and earnmore money.
I'd like to ask you, josh, whatdo you think around this whole

(33:29):
underpaid thing?

I think there are a lot of dynamics at play.
I think it's a complex topic.
It's not as simple or asobvious as it seems.
I think, josh, you led into theconversation talking about how
do I measure against colleaguesin the same role, in the same
industry, even in the sameworkplace?
And I think there's an elementthere, right, it's human

(33:52):
psychology is, you know, our payis sort of a measure of our
worth, right, and am I worth?
You know, I see my colleaguesin these different areas.
Am I worth the same or not?
I think another dynamic we'vesort of touched on but haven't
really called out directly isfor lack of better words, hourly
rate.
I think you know you can work ajob for 130, 150 grand or

(34:14):
whatever that amount is.
But you know, if you're working30, 40 hours a week, you know
per hour that's, that should bea pretty reasonable rate.
If you're working 50, 60 hoursa week, you may actually be paid
less per hour than some peopleworking with half of your salary
.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, and burnout kind of comes with that too.
When people are overworked andthey feel like they're underpaid
, they say I'm out the door,there's nothing that's going to
salvage that.
I do think the other aspectfolks have brought up that's
certainly true is compensationcomes in many forms.
It comes in the number of hoursper week, it comes in the

(34:50):
benefits for 1K, matching ofinsurance and stuff that
small-scale solopreneurs orsmall entrepreneurs can't get on
their own, and I do think thatwhen it comes down to it, you
have to separate you broughtthis up earlier, brandon
separate your personal financedecisions from your work pay.
That's 100% true.

(35:10):
Your employer's not responsiblefor your personal financial
decisions.
I think that's challenging fora lot of folks too.
Admittedly, we'll say my son's16.
In 10th grade he's taking apersonal finance class, which I
think is freaking amazing.
I didn't have that growing up.
Nope, I went to college, I gota credit card and I was like
free money.
Yeah, I don't think I ever haveto pay it back and learn that

(35:31):
lesson the hard way.

I bought a rickenbacker.
I got I had a 900 credit card.
I was like, okay, let's maxthis out.
I went out, bought a reallynice rickenbacker guitar and
then took my two roommates.
We were living on hate streetin san francisco.
I was like I'm taking you guysout for like salmon, which was
like really fancy.
Like 1992, san francisco, 19year old josh, 20 year old josh
with his new guitar, his hiscredit card, taking his

(35:57):
roommates out for dinner andthen that's it.
And then I didn't pay on thatthing for years and it's totally
like I was just an idiot.

Josh, I did the same.
Thing I bought a drum set.

Oh, there you go.

My first credit card.

Yeah, there you go .
My five roommates would veryquickly be like you're never
playing those things again.
So you know I had to get rid ofthose very quickly after that.
So that was, you know, a foolishthing, but all this kind of
comes together too.
I think there's another pointthat's really interesting to
call out the market right.
Like Josh, you remember acouple of years ago you couldn't

(36:31):
find Salesforce talent.
I remember interviewing peoplefrom my company.
I remember interviewing thiskid who was freshly minted out
of you know, code Academy orsomething, demanding to get paid
$250,000.
And I was like dude, first off,good luck.
I hope you get that whereveryou go.
Second off, when the economyturns like you have a target on
your back, like you're gonefirst because you came in here

(36:54):
entitled yeah, so be carefulwith that.
Like you're gone first, becauseyou came in here entitled yeah,
so be careful with that.
Like economies go up and down,I think a lot of people in our
business know today that it'smuch harder to get a good job
and it's much harder to get thatpay.
So don't be an idiot.
You know, when you go into aworkplace demanding Don't be an
idiot by Josh LaQuire.

I think that's exceptional advice.
We'll wrap up with a couplemore little quick things on this
one and then we'll jump intoour next number or top five
reason We've covered.
Have you earned a raise?
Here's an interesting one.
It's kind of a weird one.
Have you calculated the fullcost of joining a new company

(37:36):
Taxes, commuting, daycare, petsitters, these sorts of things.
You might leave a 100K job for120K gig, but now you're
commuting oh and it's 45 minutes, and you drive God forbid a
1999 Land Rover.
So you get six miles per gallon, right, and you need to dress

(37:57):
sharp.
Let's say it's a fin servecompany, so they want you
showing up in a suit.
Now you're wearing.
Now you've got dry cleaning.
That adds to time.
You've got the driving thatadds to time, right, that's less
time with your family, that'sless time doing things that you
want to do.
It might be great for yourcareer, it might be good for the
money.
Or maybe you are used toletting your aged golden

(38:18):
schnoodle whatever it is out thedoor to go, your little
incontinent nine pound dog outthe door every hour.
Well, that's not going tohappen.
You got a backyard.
Are you sure the falcons aren'tgoing to come steal it, so you
might need a pet sitter.
You know what I mean.
And you've got to take all ofthese other things into your
head.
You might join a company that'slike look, we're going to give

(38:40):
you a really low base salary,but we're going to pay you all
these massive bonuses based onutilization.
And then you find out, oh wow,I'm getting taxed like way more
on that second half of mycompensation and, josh, it's not
just quantitative too.

There's political capital and qualitative pieces.
When I was at Deloitte foreight years, all that political
capital I was leaving behind.
I hesitated to leave because itwas relationships and political
capital that I didn't know.
I didn't know how to monetizethat.
I was like there's a lot tothose relationships that I felt
like I was leaving and there was, there was value.

(39:16):
Right, that value was notsomething I could quantify to go
leave for another job.
So it's not just the dollars tothe new job, but it is the you
know, the qualitative pieces ofmaking that transition to.

And now you know why Brandon Stein is on the show
right now.
I love your insights, man.
There are always stuff that Iwould never even think of.

You got to think about that, right, like, the
longer you're in a job, theharder it is for you to leave,
because of those intrinsicrelationships and what that
transition is going to look like.
Right, it's harder to leave theclients.
It's harder to leave.
Working with Reed, working withVanessa If you're there for six
months, it's a little easier,right, because you don't have

(40:00):
that in Venice.
Right, for eight years, it'sgoing to be harder for me to
leave Josh.
Right, it's going to be alittle trip at the client.
Ndas and non-competes like thatis a lot harder to unwind, a
lot harder to unwind.

And there's the friendship thing too, right I
mean.
And it's more important to bein general.
This isn't sexist, so everyonecalm down.
But in general women will stayin a role longer, much more than
men, if they feel that there isa social group for them in the

(40:26):
workplace that's theirs.
If they've got friends there,they'll be way more comfortable
and they'll stay a long time.
Women stay in jobs a lot longerthan men.
Part of it has to do simplywith.
It's not really about ambitionwhat's the word?
I'm sure it'll come to me it'smore about just this sort of
like around drive and awillingness to propel yourself

(40:50):
and like stand up for yourselfand be the loud voice in the
room, and things like that.
Stand up for yourself and bethe loud voice in the room, and
things like that.
Men move around more than womendo Women.
And again, this is ageneralization based on fact.
So you know, don't get yourpanties in a bunch, but go for
it.

Yeah, I mean I don't know if anybody else has
been at a job as long as I have.
I started off saying job that I, that I was paid for.
I was there for 17 years.
Granted, I made it from internto VP, but it was hard for me to
leave and it wasn't, I don'teven know that it was.
Yes, of course it was a lot ofthe friends and a lot of the,
the network that I had withinthat, that organization, and it

(41:35):
was, you know, about 250 peopleat that company.
But also, I think when you,when you're at a job for a
really long time, you become socompetent at doing that job, you
know that job like the back ofyour hand and I think for a long
time I had I don't know if it'sthe imposter syndrome, it
wasn't, I don't wouldn't call itimposter syndrome.

(41:55):
It was a little bit different.
Where it's the, I didn't knowthat I would be able to do other
jobs as well because my skillset was so honed specifically
for the work that I was doing.

Yeah, yeah, I get that.
No excellent points.
I mean, I had never had acoworker before or since like I
had in Tom Graber, so it'sawesome that he's here.
If you're watching the video,it looks like he's working out
of a music store.
It's not, it's his house, hejust owns a lot of guitars.

(42:29):
But, like I, I haven't had acolleague like Tom Graber.
You know, in in well over adecade.
I mean, I've had employeeswhich are fantastic, like
everyone knows, steven Greger,like fantastic.
But that just generalcamaraderie, because we spent so
much time and we went throughsome really hard stuff.
We went through globalfinancial crisis.

(42:50):
We went through, you know,leadership transitions.
We went through softwareimplementations and changes and
cultural changes within.
You know leadership transitions.
We went through softwareimplementations and changes and
cultural changes within.
You know what is a Fortune 500company, and we went through it
together and it felt great.
I mean, we used to do all sortsof fun stuff right, we used to
drive around and we were.
We had a blog we blog about.
We were trying to find the bestLebanese restaurant and the

(43:13):
worst Chinese food in town andwe blogged about it early and we
did.
We all found the worst Chinesefood in town and we almost all
went to the hospital.
So it's a very real thing.
The social, the social aspect.
Let's jump into number three,which is I need better work life
balance.
I need better work life balanceand I'm going to I'm going to
launch this one a little bitwith like it newsflash.

(43:35):
It might not be the job, I mean, how many people do you know?
I mean, I can count people whoare like highly organized.
I'm talking about like friendsof mine.
Well, actually all my friendsare fairly organized.
But if you look at a company,right, how many of those people
in that company are actuallyhighly organized, reliable,

(43:58):
dependable?
Say, they're going to dosomething, do it, do it on time,
without much fuss, without manycomplaints.
They're efficient, right.
They're going to take thatskill set to their personal life
too, right.
It's like I've blocked out timeto study AI over the next month.
You know, 20 hours.

(44:18):
It's on my calendar.
I've got time to get back intoguitar.
I mostly play piano and drums.
I'm getting back into guitar.
I've got 30 minutes of thatscheduled five days a week.
So if you could be scheduledand you can actually stick to it
and you can socialize it inyour family and all these things
great.
But people can't overcommit.
Now, vanessa, you've hadexperiences of challenges or

(44:39):
difficulty saying no in the past.
Correct, yeah.

Still a problem.

Still a problem, and so overcommitting might be
the problem.
It's got nothing to do with thecompany.
They're just saying like, hey,could you do this?
And you're telling them yes,and they believe you.
So it's not your boss's faultthat they asked you to do
something extra, or you know thesame, not knowing how to say no
.
It's a whole other topic.

I think it's a combination.
I mean, it's also, you know I,I feel sometimes, having been in
consulting for a number ofyears, it's almost like
Groundhog Day, where it's you doget a lot of the, you know the
oh, we got to get 110% and doless with more, or, you know, do
more with less, kind of thing.
But certainly I'm also bad atsetting boundaries and I train

(45:30):
them to take advantage of me,like I have, you know I, this
week.
I've slept like six hours inthe last two and a half days,
you know, just because, well, weneed this thing done, and
instead of me pushing back andsaying like, well, you can't
have it because I don't haveenough time to do it, okay, well
, I guess I'm going to do it,and so that's on me.

Yes, that is on you.
And, and you know, and thereare companies that are going to
be horrible for life balance.
They just exist.
Usually you know going into it,and if you don't know going
into it, you haven't done yourinvestigation enough.
Again, go to Salesforce Ben.
Look at the Salesforce careerchecklist penned by me a couple
of years ago.
It'll tell you exactly how tofigure this stuff out, how to

(46:13):
ask good questions duringinterviews.
What am I going to find outthree months from now that I'll
wish I'd known?
Now, right, you've got an offeron the way.
Great, your offer's in hand.
Now you call them up and yousay by the way, how many hours a
week does the average personwork?
Right?
It's not a first interviewquestion, but you might want to
investigate that before you signon the line that is dotted.
I strongly recommend that youinvestigate with more than just

(46:35):
the person who's extending theoffer to you, what it's actually
like to work there, and youshould try to get a good feel
for how much pushback you canhave.
Now.
If you're new in your career,you're much more likely to be a
yes person.
You're much more likely to sayno, unless you're one of those
zombie people who just thinkeverything should be handed to

(46:55):
them, and if that's the case,good luck to you.
You should just quit and gomove back in your parents'
basement.
But if you're an ambitiousperson and you want to crush it
right, you should probably getgood at time management,
estimating how long things willtake.
You can do it in two weeks.
You can just be like stopwatch.
Great, I'm starting this task.
Stop, record it.

(47:16):
Next, there's software for it,right, I think it's called time
or timer software, and it justtracks where you're spending all
your time on all of your appsand everything.
So there's software for that.
Guys, you can figure out whereyou're spending time and whether
or not you're efficient or not.
But blaming the company beforeyou investigate it with yourself
is potentially a mistake, andhere's why we're talking about

(47:37):
this.
This is the whole reason forthe show.
What happens if you leave a jobtoo early?
What happens if you left meaton the bone, right?
What if you leave a companybecause you've got a reason that
hasn't been validated andyou're going to face that same
challenge in the next companyyou go to and you might think

(47:57):
it's their fault again, whenit's really yours, because you
haven't taken responsibility,pushed back, asked more
questions, set expectations morefairly.
You know what, mr and Mrs Boss,I would absolutely love to do
that.
That's a fantastic idea.
I want, mr and Mrs Boss, Iwould absolutely love to do that
.
That's a fantastic idea.
I think if we could get this tothem by 12 o'clock on Friday, I

(48:20):
could see how everyone's goingto be happy, out of curiosity.
How can I do that?
How am I supposed to do that?
This is some old Chris Vossstuff, right?
Never split the difference.
How can I do that?
And the reason I ask is you'vealso given me this and we're at
the tail end of that and we'vegot so-and-so is out, and so

(48:41):
what I'm estimating is 20 hoursof work in the next.
What we've got is 12 actualwork hours.
I can work all night.
I don't think you want that.
I'm pretty sure my familydoesn't want that, and I wonder
if the client knew that that'swhat I had to do if they would
want to affect all of thosepeople as well.
We talked about this on the lastshow with John Klein, right?

(49:03):
So getting really good atcommunicating what your needs
are, setting boundaries,investigating the company
beforehand, but if you leave ajob too early.
Tom Graber, what's the worstthing that you can see?
Obviously, from a resume.
We all know what they are.
They live down in Australia.
They've got big giant legs andfunny little dog faces.
What are those things thatpeople do?

(49:25):
That's the biggest mistake thatthey could possibly do for
their career.
Tell me.

Tom Graber (49:30):
Are you talking about Jermaine Clement?

Oh my God, how did you know?
No?
I'm talking about kangaroos.

Tom Graber (49:36):
Yes.

Kangaroos are hoppers.
They jump around from job tojob.
They never settled down.
They can't spend two years in asingle company, god forbid.
They think that every time theytake a job that they're leasing
the job on a one-year lease.
And I don't know if anyone herehas ever done a one-year car
lease, I haven't Know why,because it's stupid and

(50:01):
extremely expensive.
And so is staying in a full-timejob for a year and then going
into another full-time job for ayear.
It's a dumb move.
And if I look at a resume andyou're 42 years old and you've
had 11 jobs in the last nineyears, or nine jobs in the last
11 years, it's not going to gogood, buddy, I'm sorry, it's
already a problem.
So you can cover some of thisstuff by writing the little word
contract next to the job.

(50:21):
If it's the truth, becausethere's nothing wrong with 11
jobs in nine years, if they'reall contracts, but don't expect
to get hired for some long-termfull-time thing.
You should probably stick tocontracting.
So it's bad.
And there are really smart,lovely, wonderful, sharp,
interesting, capable people whohave woken up just a little bit

(50:44):
too late to that fact and whatthey haven't done and what they
need to do is some seriousself-reflection to get a handle
on why they leave.
And generally why people leaveis they have pressure, they feel
pressure, they feel pressurefrom a spouse, they feel
pressure from a boss, they feelpressure from a client and they

(51:05):
feel pain.
And that pain becomespersistent and pervasive and it
starts to hurt and they start towonder if they can ever even do
it.
And I'll tell you a story.
I'm going to tell you a quickstory.
I was working at a restaurant inPark City, utah.
It was actually in Deer Valleyand I think it was springtime.
It was a five-star, four-starrestaurant, whatever.
It was a fancy place and I'dbeen a waiter for years.

(51:28):
I worked in some really niceplaces.
I got to serve Robert Redfordand Gabriel Byrne and some
really famous people, which waskind of fun.
And I got to serve RobertRedford and Gabriel Byrne and
some really famous people, whichwas kind of fun, and I got free
dinner and I was poor, so thatwas great.
I was in this one restaurant andthe place was empty and I had
one family and the table washeaded by a father.
It was the father, his wife,two little girls, and he was

(51:52):
being so mean and rude to me andI was a pretty nice guy and a
very experienced server at thetime and he kept like just
giving me evil eye and talkingsharply and dressing me down.
And you know those movies where, like, some incredible scene
unfolds and then it ends and itsnaps back and it's just the
person's imagination.

(52:13):
That literally happened to me.
I walked over to him, I pickedup these heavy these were not
plastic pitchers, these werelike heavy, heavy glass, leaded
glass pitchers and I walked overto him and I swung my arm and I
smashed it across his head.
And then I woke up and I'mstanding right there holding the
pitcher, looking at the table,and I took a breath, I turned

(52:35):
around, I put it down, I walkedinto the kitchen, I took off my
apron and I walked out becausethat environment, that kind of
behavior, that that that washappening.
I don't know what the situationwas.
Maybe I'm sharing too much here, but it was too much.
I had to go.
There is nothing that wouldhave kept me there because I
felt it was dangerous for me tostay in that in that moment, in

(52:58):
that in that job.
Now, I was a young kid, I waslike 20 years old or whatever,
right.
So don't judge me too harshlyon a story like that.
But we have our reasons.
We quit because we're in pain,because it hurts, because it
sucks.
You got to get out of here andwe don't see any light.
Where's the light?
Well, the light is you.
The light is you.

(53:19):
You take a moment and you startinvestigating, asking good
questions, take some ownershipand get a coach, get a
psychologist, get some therapy,have a friend, get some support.
Just get some support.
Guys Coming to this show,you're going to get support, you
can come on, you can ask somequestions.
We'll support you.
That's why we're talking aboutall this.

(53:41):
To begin with, better work-lifebalance.
What are some reasons whysomeone might not, or why
someone might feel burnt outthat have nothing to do with the
company that they're workingfor?

Some of the obvious ones is a commute, like
you already mentioned.

New baby.

I do want to kind of touch on what Reid just
mentioned.
A friend of mine, his brother,is a high up executive at Amazon
Web Services making really goodmoney.
But for two years since COVIDhe's been working from home.
And now Amazon and I've heardthis story multiple times from
multiple people is now sayingcome back in the office Like the

(54:30):
feds this week, yeah, and he'sbasically saying I'm not doing
it and quit his job.
I think in that case it's notunreasonable, right, like if you
extend a benefit to an employeethat you rescind that benefit.
Then you're going to have someattrition.

Yeah, I think that's a great point.
It's not the same job anymore,is it?
Yeah, they else, though, right,like Vanessa, you don't sleep
enough, like you know.
Are you burned out becauseyou're not eating well, because

(55:05):
you're not sleeping enough?
I, I struggle off and on withmy sleep, you know, I think I
figured it out, like over thelast month, and that's great,
but sometimes I really strugglewith it.
That's not my employer's fault,you know.
That's my own chemistry orhabits.
You know what about exercise?
You know, are you exercising?
Well, I don't have work-lifebalance.
I'd exercise if I had lifebalance.

(55:27):
Well, you might have a clearhead if you exercised and
accomplished everything in 70%of the time, because you can
work quickly and you have themental energy for it, right, so
you've got to invest in thesethings.
Any other reasons, or any otherreasons why someone might feel
like they don't have work-lifebalance, but it's actually
within their control?

I think a lot of it's self-inflicted, right?
Vanessa was saying like you'rea yes man or yes woman and you
overexert and overextend and alot of that's intrinsic.
And so when people are stressed, Josh, a lot of that pressure
is intrinsic.
They do that to themselves.
And so if you're notprioritizing your mental and
physical health I don't care ifyou're working a 30 hour week or

(56:09):
an 80 hour week you shouldschedule your workouts, your
mental, your yoga, yournighttime reading, whatever it
is you need for your mental andphysical breaks.
You schedule them like anyother work, meeting, and make it
a priority and do not giveyourself an excuse, right,
Because it's really easy to justlet that stuff slide, whether
it's a 30 hour week or 80 hourweek, and and that way you're,

(56:33):
you're always prioritizing thatstuff and and not give, not give
yourself those types of outs,right.

I love that.
It's like don't cheat yourselfout of health.
That's what it is.

It is I'm going to throw something in here that
we've kind of talked around butwe haven't actually hit.
Sometimes people in this youknow I'm 44 and learning this
about myself you look 30,sometimes people don't know what
they want and who they are andthey take on a job thinking it's
what they should be orsomething they want to be, and

(57:08):
there's this internal struggleof me trying to be this thing I
think I'm supposed to be butit's not me.
And not being aware of thatright Like this causes great
inner turmoil and I think that'ssomething that's really
difficult to put your thumb on.
I think a lot of people.
That's why they change careers.
And, josh, we talked in one ofour last shows, I think maybe
the last one I was on with yousome of the most interesting

(57:31):
people I've ever met are thoseinto a second career.
You know who actually kind offigured out my first career
didn't fit and I tried somethingnew and made it.

That happened with me.
My server career waiting tablesdidn't work out for me, so I'm
a headhunter.

Exactly, but I think it takes a lot of
self-awareness as to like whatreally animates you and drives
you.
Are you taking on a job or acareer that fits or doesn't fit?

Yeah, it's.
Where are you like?
Where are you aiming?
Guys, we do talk about this onthe show a fair amount, but it
stands to reason to bring it upall the time.
Where do you want to go?
And now, why do you want to gothere?
And now, how are you going toget there?
And, by the way, who's going tohelp you?
And what are you willing togive up to get that?
You, and what are you willingto give up to get that?
You don't get that without thegive up, right?

(58:19):
I mean, I want to learn AI likecrazy over the next month.
Guess what I'm giving up.
Well, I'm going to give upprobably 20 hours of television
because I like TV.
I really do.
People never say I love TV.
I love TV.
I love TV.
I don't like commercials, Ilove good television.
I'm talking like platform shows, netflix shows and things like
that.
I love it.
Get sucked in.
It's my relax time, but I'mgoing to give up some of that so

(58:41):
I can invest in myself.

Josh, can I share a story?
So I called Josh a week or twoago as a confidant, as a friend
and as a colleague and I saidwhat makes people go out on
their own and start their ownbusiness?
Right, and it goes back, reed,to something you said in the
first 10 minutes is nobody isgoing to care about your career
more than you.
And once you realize that nocompany, no title, no job to

(59:06):
Josh's point is going to defineyou, once you've realized that
you've come to grips that no oneelse and no other entity, no
other company can define you butyou can control and you can
care about yourself.
That, I think, ultimately, iswhat drives people to go start
their own business or become anentrepreneur, or go set up a
single shingle or go, you know,become a solopreneur, right,

(59:29):
whatever it is.
And so Josh and I had thatconversation a few weeks ago,
kind of confidentially, but that, that, that piece, sometimes it
takes some people realize it intheir thirties, forties,
fifties.
It just depends at what lifestage you're in, but it goes
back to no HR department, no, no, no boss, no one, not even your
spouse, your parents, is goingto care more about your career

(59:49):
than you are, because you're theonly one that has the agency
and the power that can makethose decisions and care about
it.

Josh Matthews (01:00:03):
Amen, amen to that man.
Yeah, like, don't be a victim,right.
And the trick there is reallysimple.
You just pause and say, okay, Ifeel like a victim, that's okay
, you can accept that.
It's okay to feel like a victim.
The trick is to not behave likeone right, because the sooner
you stop behaving like a victimyou can feel like.
Because the sooner you stopbehaving like a victim you can
feel like it.
The sooner you stop behavinglike a victim, the more control
you're going to get over thechallenges that you're facing

(01:00:24):
and you can actually dosomething about it.
By the way, it's going to meandoing things differently.
That might feel uncomfortable.
That might not feel nice.
I still have a challenge withinterrupting people lifelong.
I mean, I was notorious in theday.
I'm getting better at it.
What's that bud?
is the day today or no, no man,I just I, you know, I like, like

(01:00:50):
, and I'm talking mostly in mypersonal life.
I I interrupt people when I'minterviewing them because I need
them to stop talking and I gota lot to get through, or their
answers are too long or I'mbored, you know.

Reed Marquand (01:01:02):
I think it's also because you're excited.
You want to add to thatconversation.

Well, it is.
But generally, if I interrupt,it's just going to be because I
need to know more information.
I'm going to interrupt.
Great, I get that.
Let me ask you this.
And now I'm back to listeningmode.
It's not because I need to tellsomeone my thing.
That's what this show is for,Haven't you noticed?
It's really about, like gettingmore information out of them in
an interview.
But I sometimes that crossesover to personal life.

(01:01:29):
Now I am so much better and itI'm paying attention to it all
the time, it still physicallyhurts.
It's a physical pain.
It's not like a thought, it's aphysical chemical in my chest,
Like I need to move on, I needto go do this, I want to do

(01:01:50):
whatever it is.
So I'm getting better at that.
You just get comfortable withthe pain and then the pain goes
away and it gets softer andsofter and softer.
It's okay, it's nothing wrongwith it.
There's nothing wrong withworking yourself, working on
yourself.
I'm 52.
I'm still working on myself.
It's nothing wrong with that,it's good.
And it's okay to own yourfaults right.
I'm imperfect.
Everyone on this room isimperfect, exceptional people.

(01:02:12):
You know you really are.
Let's keep moving.
We've got two more to getthrough and I know we started
this show a little bit late.
My bad, but let's dive intothis one.
This is an interesting one.
It's a toxic environment.
It's a toxic environment.
I'm going to go to you read injust one moment, but before we
go to you, toxic gets thrownaround so much that it's

(01:02:37):
subjective.
Okay, it's just been thrownaround too much and we all know
who has been throwing it around.
I think they all live inPortland or something.
But we all know that it's beenthrown around way, way, way too
much.
It doesn't mean it's not real.
There are real situations.
Way, way, way too much.

(01:02:57):
It doesn't mean it's not real.
There are real situations.
So I would like to define.
Let's define, you know.
Basically, you need to definewhat toxic means to you.
Okay, but let's let's kind ofcough up some of the reasons
that we think might be examplesof toxic environments.
Go ahead, read.

So I pulled this up.
I wanted to find thequintessential example of it, so
I'll read this to you verbatimThanks, nothing will destroy a
great employee's morale andinspiration faster than watching
their employer tolerate andreward a bad one.
And I think a lot of timesyou'll hear toxic environment,
whatever, and they think badboss.
It's not necessarily thatthere's always a bad boss.

(01:03:36):
It's maybe that there's adistracted boss, or I think,
vanessa, in your first 20minutes that might've been on
broadcast you were mentioning asituation where your management
was aware of someone who was notquite cutting and it was
dragging the team down and theyjust hope that they leave or
whatnot.
So I think there's all sorts ofthings that could be toxic.

(01:03:58):
As you said, josh, I think it'sthrown around too much these
days.
Irrelevancy but that's one ofmy definitions of what a toxic
environment is is seeing a placethat continuously lets someone
who is the demoralizer, the lateone, they never get their work
done, always rides on others.

(01:04:18):
Everyone else is the hero tosave them.
I think those are the placesthat I consider that sort of
toxic environment.
I'll let others weigh in herenow.

Thanks, for sharing Reid.

Vanessa Grant (01:04:29):
Yeah, I'll throw in the micromanagement.
I mean, I think that's thequintessential toxic environment
.
And to finish that story, reid.
So they were trying to get ridof that person on the team as
opposed to just getting rid ofthem.
They set up six hours of Zoommeetings a day that we all had
to be mandatory on camera forfull team meetings and it was

(01:04:49):
everybody wanted to leave,everybody wanted to leave at
that point and that's the kindof that quintessential toxic
environment example.
For me, it was like you know,if you don't trust us enough to
not force us to like literallyco-work on camera for six hours
a day, like whew.

Yeah, but that those like those decisions come
from somewhere.
Right, like they come fromsomewhere.
You know there could be anumber of people that are
abusing, abusing remote work andthey have a fiduciary
responsibility to theirinvestors and to their clients
to ensure that the work getsdone.
I hear what you're saying.
I know that it feels toxic toyou.

(01:05:27):
It sounds like it felt toxic toa lot of people, but an
argument could be made that itwasn't toxic.
I'm just saying I would debatethis.
I'm not saying that you're wrong, vanessa, and I believe you.
You tell me that it was a toxicenvironment.
Trust me, I'm all in.
I'm on team Vanessa, and youknow that.
But we're talking to a lot ofpeople that, and right now,

(01:05:48):
hundreds of people are listeningto this program maybe not right
in this moment, but they'regoing to be listening to it not
right in this moment, butthey're going to be listening to
it and I want to make sure thatthey've got a real setup, like
just because you're on meetingsall day long, or because they
want you on a bunch of teammeetings on camera.
That's not good for you.
Some people don't care, I don'tcare.
I'm on six hours of video callsevery day, I don't care.

If it were meetings, it'd be different,
Josh.

No, literally we were all working in silence,
like on our own thing, and wejust had to be on camera for six
hours.
Oh yeah, that's kind of gross.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's a little weird.

I hate to do it, but I got to run.
I will say I guess it'sSalesforce related and also,
josh, since you're doing your AIjourney.

Yeah, guys, this is not the end of the show.
Vanessa's just going to pop out.
We cover the rest of the stuff.
Yeah.

The virtual classes at Trailhead Academy are
, you know, for AI?
They're available.
I'm about to take my GetStarted with AgentForce for zero
dollars.
You get a nice littlecertificate at the end that you
could throw up on LinkedIn.
So if you want to use yourhours someday to get started
with Prompt Builder orAgentForce or anybody out there,
those classes are free untilthe end of the year and they

(01:06:53):
offer them multiple times.
Throwing that out there.
Thanks, thanks all.

Thank you, vanessa.
Yeah, and that's great.
I mean, there's free resources.
You definitely want to do it.
I'm not a fan of everyonethrowing all their
certifications up and all thechatter around that on LinkedIn.
It's like, come on, yeah, youknow, just own it and like, if
you need that acc, you're goingto get tons and tons and tons
and tons of likes.
You've shared no value otherthan a small accomplishment that

(01:07:16):
you've made.
So I, you know, I'm not a fanof that, and if you're the
person who does that, there'snothing wrong with that.
I'm just saying, personally,not a big fan, but off you go,
young lady, good luck tonight.
Okay, toxic environment guys.
Here's something that I wouldask people to consider.
Is it bad communication, right?

(01:07:37):
Is it harassment?
Are you getting bullied?
Is it the whole company?
Is it the entire leadershipteam, or is it just one boss?
Tom and I had a toxic, toxicmanager.
You know who I'm talking about,mr Tom.
I mean.

Tom Graber (01:07:55):
I was sitting in park city enjoying a brunch with
my daughters and wife and a guya waiter, trying to sell me his
old reichenbacher came overwith a very heavy glass, hit me
upside the head.
It kind of ruined my day if youwere paying attention the whole
time.

Oh, yeah, this is not a soundbite, but close
enough.

In all seriousness.
Yes, I know who you're talkingabout.
Yeah, and it does happen.
I think one of the things isthere was an article written
about fire, the jerk and jerkwasn't the word where sometimes
in tech companies, people willcome in and this guy will be an
expert on something and he has avery abrasive way of working

(01:08:42):
and the turnover was really highwith him, like, well, he's
brilliant.
Well, because that's who theyknew, that was the devil they
knew.
Yeah.
And if they started interviewingother people, they realized,
hey, not everyone that has thatrole is a complete jerk.
In fact, one of the concepts Iwas floating when we had to deal

(01:09:04):
with this person the word toxiccame up a lot and I said what
we need is a Pied Piper.
Pied Piper is someone who's sowell liked and respected that,
rather than losing all of ourcandidates to these interviews
with this abrasive person, thisguy has a lot of people that

(01:09:25):
would love to work with them,just from previous experience,
and they're the kind of personthat goes to a company and
people follow them, and it'slike you hear this about people
like leaders go to a certaincompany, like a guy goes from
Lamborghini to Ferrari and thewhole team follows him over, and

(01:09:45):
the same can be said in anysort of company.
So I think identifying is one.
There's this exceptionalism.
People have to it.
I think it was mentioned before.
I think you said said it wait,maybe.
So I forget who said it, butsometimes it just is one person
that's allowed to get away withit, that really does it, and

(01:10:07):
then everyone else.
It kind of has a trickle-downeffect on the way people go and
I think you have to inspect whatyou expect.
You have to understand howpeople are talking to each other
by auditing their meetings,sitting in on it, finding out
what makes a tick.
Now, I think what a lot ofcompanies have been doing I've

(01:10:31):
seen for the past five years is360-degree reviews that you pick
out people that are yoursubordinates, they're your
superiors, that have workingrelationships, that are in the
location, whatever it is, andyou get a view of the person, a

(01:10:51):
360 degree view, the pluses, theminuses, and that and, ideally,
anonymously.

Absolutely Right, these are really good.
I think it's really importanthere.
Folks Like when you're thinking, and this is going to be a big
one, it might frustrate somepeople, it might piss them off,
I don't know, but I just want tosay this, and Tommy's done this
You've interviewed people wherethe last three jobs that they

(01:11:19):
had were toxic.
Right, and I'm telling you, ifyour last three jobs were toxic,
it's not them, it's you, forreal.
It's not them, it's you Okay,because they have a company,
they make money, they hirepeople and they're successful.
And you're bouncing from job tojob to job, complaining about

(01:11:39):
every environment, and thecommon denominator is you, and I
don't mean that in a crappy way, that's just knowledge.
Okay, so if and here's anexample I talked to I talked to
a potential candidate the otherday and he said, for each of his

(01:12:01):
last jobs, oh yeah, that placewas toxic.
Oh yeah, that place was toxic.
Oh yeah, that place was toxic.
And I just said okay, man, talkto me about what's going on.
I, I've seen this before.
And I asked him.
I said do you happen to have,do you have, a condition?
Do you?
You know, you don't have totell me because it's medical.
But have you in your life everexperienced severe trauma?

(01:12:22):
And he said, yes, my wholechildhood.
He said, okay, so you, you havePTSD or complex PTSD?
And he said, yes, I havecomplex PTSD.
I was like, okay, now that'sserious.
That's a serious, seriouscondition, okay, and it requires
a lot of treatment and therapy.
And whoever's making noise?

(01:12:43):
If you could mute your mic,please, that would be helpful.
So am I going to be like, hey,it's you buddy, yeah, it's your
fault.
No, it's not his fault.
He didn't ask for what heexperienced that then becomes
expressed in his work life as anadult.
It's not his fault.

(01:13:04):
I ain't mad at him, right, butsomeone keeps making squeaky
mouse sounds like an r2d2.

Josh LeQuire (01:13:13):
uh, is that you, tom?

Graber, is that you?
I don't know, I don't know.
I'm just going to mute everybody.
So it's not his fault and I'mnot mad at him.
I can't place him.
But I was able to have a reallyopen, vulnerable conversation
with him about what he's doingto ensure that his next role is

(01:13:37):
a successful one that allows himto to hopefully succeed,
because there's an opportunityout there for everyone and I
really do believe that, uh,everyone, except for about 10%
of the population, If you agreewith some of the old French IQ
studies back in the day.
But for the most part, you knowthere's an opportunity for
people.
So I I can come off kind ofbrazen, but I really do mean

(01:14:00):
that there are people with veryreal mental health challenges
that it's not their fault.
And then there are all thepretenders, the fakers.
They're just short on patienceand they're just not good at
communicating and they're justimpatient or they're prima
donnas or they want everythinghanded to them.
That's who I'm talking to.

(01:14:22):
Don't throw around the wordtoxic people, please.
It's a very dangerous word.
Someone calls you toxic.
Think about what that mightfeel like for you, right?
And I would say have you goneto this person and, without
using the word toxic, say, hey,some of the aspects of this
company are causing me somediscomfort, and I don't want to

(01:14:48):
speak for anyone else, but I'mwitnessing signs that possibly
others are feeling this way too,and I want to help.
I really, really want to help,Okay.
So can we talk about this?
Can we talk?
I can share a couple scenariosthat I'm talking about because
I'd love to see a slight changein behavior, and I just think

(01:15:08):
about Jan from the office.
Jan did this with Michael allthe time in the office, you know
, try to try to help him.
She just like kind of blow itoff and go to him and be like
hey, man, you can't really actlike that, you know.
So I really, I really like that, and it's a big word.
Please be careful throwing itaround.
And before you call yourworkplace toxic, is it just your

(01:15:29):
one bad boss?
Tom and I had such a bad boss,and I'll just say I got him
fired and it's because I caughthim in numerous, numerous,
numerous lies.
And tom taught me somethingyears ago.
He said information is power.
Information withheld is twiceas powerful.
Now I don't like to playpolitics.
I'll play them if I have to,but I don't like to play it.

(01:15:49):
I like to just go to work, getmy stuff done and have some fun,
right?
And this guy was such a nuisance.
I mean, we had turnover in ourteams.
It was one new person every sixweeks.
Can you imagine that?
A new person every six weeks?
Because they couldn't standworking there or they weren't
given the tools to succeed.
He had to go.
And finally he said somethingand I caught him in a lie and an

(01:16:17):
opportunity presented like areal one that I could prove, and
I brought it casually up to hisboss's boss and within a week
he resigned to his boss's bossand within a week he resigned.
You know, he quote unquote,resigned.
And guess what, Tom, didn'tlife get a little bit better
after that?

It was, it was better.
And I will say something as acaveat to that is it's good to
have checks.
You know, go out lunch, drinksor whateverworkers vent there.
Maybe you're just having a badweek.
But one thing that you have toremember is you don't know who

(01:16:54):
other people know, and what Imean by that is if you say, oh
gosh, this guy Sam, oh, he's sotoxic, blah, blah, blah.
And you go into this person andthey talk about him.
They could be his next doorneighbor, he could be his best
friend from high school, hecould have worked and he could
have worked with them at aprevious company, and they still

(01:17:15):
play golf every weekend.
So when you say something likethat, be aware of the context of
what you're saying.
Because he said that toxic is.
It's a very loaded word.
It's over the past five years,it's become very heavy and
weighted, yeah.
So if you say something likethat, they're gonna go hey guess

(01:17:36):
what?
part three, right, hey, I wastalking to josh and he was
saying you were toxic and he'sbeen telling everyone at the
office.

Yeah.
And so you, you can't in inconfidence, get around kind of
saying that you have to talksmack about people at work in
general, like keep it toyourself and talk to your
manager or address the issuedirectly with them.
That's it.
That's it.
Get rid of all that behavior,yeah.

And if you're going to go back to our office
references, Chili's is the placewhere business happens.
It's more efficient than goingto a McDonald's now.

That's right.

My plug for Chili's.

Guys, we're going to talk about the last one,
which is the leadership isterrible.
That's your reason for leavingand I think that that has been
probably one of the most commonones that I've seen out of.
I don't know however manypeople I've talked to in the
last 25 years.
Brandon, look, most people knowwhat makes a good leader, but

(01:18:39):
the question I would ask peopleis what's so bad about the
leadership?
Again, this guys, there's atheme to this right Articulate
the specific issue, research it,confront it, have options and
move forward one way or theother, but it's articulate what

(01:18:59):
the real problem is.
So what are some of thedifferent like?
Is someone lazy?
Are they unethical?
Are they emotionally checkedout?
Is it just not your style?
Like Vanessa said earlier, likemicromanagement is toxic, I
completely, 100%, disagree withher.
Micromanagement is a style ofmanagement for people who aren't

(01:19:19):
familiar with doing lots ofrepetitive tasks and delivering
results.
Let's say you're in sales.
If your numbers are good, noone's going to micromanage you,
period.
If you're not producing whatyou're asked to produce, you're
going to get micromanaged.
It's not toxic, it's just astyle, right?

Brandon Stein (01:19:37):
And it tends to, especially in client service or
professional services, it tendsto type A delivery.
Top tier professionals tend tobe, you know, control freaks and
they like to micromanage.
They'd like to deliver andcontrol right and they tend to
sort of, you know, they like tocontrol their client delivery
and they tend to be kind of hardto work for.

(01:19:58):
But they're good.
They're good at what they doand that's why they're hard to
work for.
They have high deliverystandards and that's kind of the
consulting mindset.
I'm a big Scott Galloway fan.
He is a NYU professor, he's amarketing guru, he produces a
podcast, he writes a lot ofbooks he says he has.
He writes a lot aboutleadership, right, and he says
greatness is in the agency ofothers.

(01:20:21):
Right, and I truly believe that, instead of talking about what
bad leaders do or what not to do, but greatness is in the agency
of others, good leaders, right,know how to promote others,
know how to delegate, know howto give other responsibilities
and grow other people.
So you try to attract andsurround yourself with other
people that grow, that getpromoted, and he's all about

(01:20:42):
surrounding yourself with othergreat leaders and how you do
that is you see how they growtheir careers, how they sponsor
others, how they true leaders.
They know to be better and togrow and to succeed and to scale
their businesses and to growtheir startups or to grow their
consulting practices.
They truly need to surroundthemselves with other great
people and they believe thatgreatness is in the agency of

(01:21:05):
others, so they are going toallow other people to be great,
which allows them to succeed.
They get that right, and sohe's a big proponent of
leadership and identifying othergreatness and surrounding
yourself with other people.
I'm a big Scott Galloway fan,so instead of talking about like
bad leaders and how to identifytoxicity, let's talk about just
turning that backwards andidentifying like what good

(01:21:26):
leadership looks like.

Yeah, I love it, Reid.
What are your thoughts on this?

Well, I've had lots of thoughts about certain
things and I don't know if it'sall toxic and I know that's not
the theme of your show, butthat's seeped in here right.
I do feel there's nepotism,cronyism.
You can kind of spot thateasily sometimes.
But to some of the I think,tom's comments, you never know
who knows whom and who talks towho, and buddy, buddy.
So there's something tominefield there.

(01:21:54):
I think some of that I've seenare echo chambers.
You know some managementstructure that has said
something.
That sort of bounces around, itbecomes a truth and you as
maybe a outsider to that group,you say that's not right at all.
Or here's the latest technologyor research or what have you.
So it doesn't necessarily thatall these bad leaderships are

(01:22:15):
just bad guys.
I think we kind of go in thatdirection a lot of the time.
Sometimes it's that they're inover their head.
Sometimes they there, you go,they got hired on, and I mean
facing that title or whatever Ithink brandon or josh said
earlier, and they, theyshouldn't be there.
It's not that they're a badperson, it's.
This was not the right placefor them, sure sort of thing.

(01:22:36):
So and I've been in places whereI've I've not always done this,
but I've gotten better at overthe years is sometimes coaching
up and sometimes that is not theeasiest thing to do.
Manager doesn't want to hearhow to do their job.
If you can go to your Chili'sor whatever and have those
moments where it's it's lessboss and employer and more just

(01:22:59):
two guys out or two people outhaving a conversation, I think
you can imply some thingswithout being overtly you're
doing this wrong or what haveyou so?

you, can I?
Okay, I hear what you're saying.
Sorry, did I just interrupt you?
You did, but I think it's yourshow, josh.
Yeah, it is my show, I'm goingto jump in.
So I look, I I think you'reright.
But here's the problem when Iface bad leaders, they're
generally either incompetent orarrogant.

(01:23:30):
Right, and God forbid, they'reboth.
That's really tough and you'vegot to figure out how to
communicate.
Incompetent, but maybe there'sincompetent and sensitive, right
, you don't want to break theirspirit.
So encouragement and hey, youknow what that soft approach of
like.
Hey, you know what.

(01:23:50):
I just saw this really coolYouTube on how to get more out
of your employees and I watchedit.
I was like, oh my gosh, reed'sgoing to love this.
Can I send it to you?
And then maybe we can talkabout it on a Monday meeting.
What do you think?
Like?
You can do little things likethat.
That's the soft sell with thearrogant folks.
It often requires ademonstration of success, of of

(01:24:11):
of strength and resilience, butyou have to appeal to the ego at
the same time.
But a lot of arrogant peoplewill not, or people in
leadership, they will see asskissery from 10 miles away and
they won't want it.
You know they might kind oftemporarily like it, but it's
not authentic, right, andthere's a there's a style of of

(01:24:33):
community.
Communicating with those folkswe're beating around the bush
isn't going to get you anywherebecause they're just going to
think like that guy.
I just had lunch with Reed andReed implied I wasn't doing a
good job, screw Reed, so you'vegot to be like Reed.
I wanted to talk to you about aspecific and you pick out a
specific behavior.
And this is how you do it youpick out the event, the specific

(01:24:57):
event.
You can allude to others, butyou want to keep it really
straightforward and small.
And you say, when we were inthat team meeting, I'd shared an
idea and you kind of cut me.
You know, I don't know what wasgoing on, but you didn't seem
very open to that idea and youshut me down.

(01:25:20):
And you shut me down in frontof the whole team.
And frankly, I need you to knowthat when you did that, that
embarrassed me and that doesn't,by the way, that doesn't mean I
don't have thick skin, but Ilike to call it like I see it.
I figured you'd want to knowbecause you seem a direct person
and I thought I'd share thatwith you.
Now you're sharing what theydid right and what the impact
was to you.
You're not saying you did thisand you made me feel bad and you
blah, blah and you embarrassedme.

(01:25:40):
You know, it's just like whenyou, when you jumped in it, made
me feel this way.
That's a softer way of saying it, but you're being direct and,
by the way, I don't like that.
So I would ask, if there's aproblem with one of my ideas, if
you could maybe socialize withthat with me in private, you
know, or on Slack or somewhere,not in front of my peers, whose

(01:26:01):
respect I have earned and wantto keep.
That would mean a lot to me.
Do you see what I'm saying?
It's direct and head on, butyou're not using you and you and
you.
You see what I'm saying, soit's less painful for them.
What do you guys think aboutthat style of confrontation.

I think you have to put people.
If you want to provide honestfeedback and build stronger
relationships, you have todeliver feedback in a way that
somebody will receive and if youcome out firing shots and are
accusatory, you're going to turnoff the other party and turn
them away and there's noconversation.
It now becomes a battle whereeverybody is entrenched in their

(01:26:45):
camp and builds strongerdefenses and fights back.
So feedback, two-way dialogue,is, in my opinion, a hallmark of
great leadership.
Great leaders will ask forfeedback and will say how can I
do better?
And I think it kind of flipsthe conversation we did start
with.
And I do deeply appreciate thepersonal accountability side of
this that you're highlighting,josh.

(01:27:06):
I think that's critical becausethat's a big piece of honestly
being receptive to goodleadership and actually
identifying good leadership.
But the flip side of that, too,is good leaders should really.
A lot of people are thrown intoleadership positions.
You'd identified micromanagingas a way to get people to
perform and deliver results as astyle of management.

(01:27:28):
Yeah, that's definitely true.
Micromanagement is also peoplegetting thrown into leadership
positions early in their career,not having a lot of leadership
experience.
Yeah, it's the go-to, isn't it?

Step one you're in manager, Congratulations.
Module one is your introductionto micromanagement.

Yeah.
So, we encountered this allright.
So you as a good, you know kindof team member, have to
recognize and in some cases, youknow, have a little bit thicker
skin or a little bit more kindof fault tolerance and you have
to look at.
There's one of the things youbrought up earlier in our
conversation, Josh having alonger term lens and not leaving
the job prematurely.
Large organizations, leadershipturnover is quite frequent.

(01:28:11):
It could be every six months,every year.
So if you don't like it, justhang on for a little bit, you
might.

Oh man, that's so true.
Did you find that to be thecase for you, Brandon?

Just in prior roles.

Yeah, probably at Deloitte.
Did you have a new managerevery six months, or was it
pretty stable when you werethere?

No, I mean it's pretty chaotic right.
Salesforce is the same way andDeloitte.
It's like a war of attrition.
If you just kind of hang on andyou hang around long enough,
you'll get promoted, right.

So it's like the weather in Portland wait five
minutes, it'll change, right?
Yeah, that makes sense.
I think we're at a point wherewe can summarize this for folks
and then maybe share some lastminute stories and talk about
what's coming down the pike.
The bottom line is you've gotto protect your career.
No one's going to do it for youas well as you can.

(01:29:02):
No one's going to do it for youas well as you can.
And protecting your career isthinking even as a 25-year-old.
What kind of opportunities doyou want available for you when
you're 40?
What can you do?
There's a great book I've got onthis little bookshelf right
back here and it's calledRecruit Rockstars.
It's by Jeff Hyman and one ofthe things I really liked.

(01:29:24):
He said he's like we don't evenlook at, we don't even talk to
candidates about jobs they'vehad if they haven't been in that
job for two years, because whatdo they know If you haven't
gone through two seasons?
How are you like?
What do you really know?
You know, and I can think aboutwhat I know about the jobs that
I stayed at for less than ayear is that I didn't like them

(01:29:47):
and that's why I'm not there.
And what I know about the jobsthat I stayed at for two years
or more is I liked them a lot.
They weren't perfect, but Iliked them a lot.
I had a president I reported toin a large organization and she
was great.
And she told me she said, Josh,I think about quitting every

(01:30:15):
three months, but I don't,because the other 89 days are
pretty good.
It's going to happen.
Folks, you're going to want toquit.
We talk about this on the showall the time, no-transcript.

(01:30:45):
You want to know why somepeople have these long, storied
careers at a company.
It's because they didn't quit.
It's like trying to grow abeard Just don't shave.
It's harder than you think.
I don't like how it grows in ormy face feels itchy or whatever
, but it's no different.
So you want to challenge.
Stay in your job for two yearsbefore you even start thinking

(01:31:07):
about moving.
Do everything you can todemonstrate your value to your
employer and to your clients andto your team members.
Communicate with the rightpeople, Reflect on your role in
any issues, and I thinkeverybody in this room has done
a very good job in their careers, because you've all had

(01:31:27):
wonderful careers.
And how can you not when you'renot like gosh, you know what.
Maybe I should read a book andget better at this, or maybe I
should take a course and getbetter at that.
Or maybe I should stopinterrupting people or stop
hitting people in the head withwater pitchers, Like.
Whatever it happens, Whatever ithappens to be that you can work
on, maybe I could assume moreresponsibility.

(01:31:47):
Maybe I could teach these otherpeople.
Who could I elevate today?
Whose day could I make?
How could I make my boss's jobeasier?
How could I communicate myvalue to him on a weekly or
monthly basis so that I'm theobvious contender for the next
promotion or the next raise?
These are all within yourcontrol.
I really believe it.
I really believe it.

(01:32:08):
I don't believe in fate.
I believe that we all havetalents that we're born with.
I am not one of these.
I am a nature over nurture guy.
In case that's not apparent, bythe way, science is on my side.
Here you come out how you areand you're given this bandwidth
of happiness, a bandwidth ofsadness, whatever potential

(01:32:28):
mental things that could happenjust chemically with you.
You come out like that.
Then you enter the world andyou learn Wherever you are in
life.
If you're listening to thisshow.
You're already a step ahead ofthe game because you're
listening to a show that isdesigned, hopefully, to help
your career.
Congratulations, You're alreadywinning and doing the right

(01:32:48):
thing.
Keep it up and, if you like theshow, give us a thumbs up and
subscribe, but for real, likeyou're already doing the right
stuff.
So why would you not take thatknowledge and bring it to the
workplace?
In other words, you know, it'sjust like what's the glass house
, what's your stuff?

(01:33:09):
Figure that out and theninvestigate and then socialize
it and address things in asdirect a way as you can.
I'd love to get some finalthoughts and, by the way, we
will be back in two weeks live.
This time we're going to starton time.
I apologize for the 20 minutedelay on the live show.
I hope we haven't lost somelisteners permanently.
Let's go.
Some last words of wisdom.

(01:33:31):
We'll start with Mr Reid.
What are some final words ofwisdom that you have for anyone
who's thinking about quitting?

Well, I take it back to this quote that I said
earlier.
I had it up on my screen solong we had the whole show going
.
Let's talk about an employeelosing morale because of their
employer.
Well, as we talked about quitea bit during the show, you're
the champion of your own career,so you are both employee and
employer in that situation.
That analogy that far is if youcan't be happy in what you're

(01:34:04):
doing, then you have to make achange, whether you need to go,
work out or take.
You know, as you were saying,with the perplexity and the AI
classes, I'm doing a bit of thesame, josh.
You know, expand your reach.
You got to find your happiness.
You got to find your anchor.
So I probably ended up ramblinghere, but be the champion of
your own career and, you know,take responsibility.

(01:34:24):
I think you would tend to agreewith that one quite a bit.

Wonderful Mr Graber.

The old adage get out in nature every once in a
while.
I think that's everyone who'stalked about overcoming
depression or things.
I don't care how quick it is 15, 20 minutes Get outside, do
something.
Find a park I think that's good.
Find a safe place to vent andrealize everything is temporary.

Wonderful words.
Thank you, tom, mr LaQuire.

Yeah, I'll kind of sort of rehash some of the
things we were talking aboutearlier.
You're the captain of your ownship, but know what you want and
find that out.
If there's tension between youand your employer, your job, and
you're feeling like you got toquit, step back, take a breather
, go out in nature.
I think it's great adviceReflect, figure out who you are,

(01:35:17):
what you want and whether it'sthe job, the employer, that is
the problem or it's you.
And before, as Josh said,suggested earlier, if there's
something you need to shift inyourself, give it a try.
The worst thing that can happenis you come back a month or two
months down the road and decideyou want to leave.
Or maybe you made the greatestdecision of your life to stick
around there you go.

Thank you, Josh, Mr Stein call a long lost friend
that you haven't connected within many months or many years.
That's always been a nicelifeline right.
It's just to reconnect withsomeone you've lost touch with.
That always kind of grounds youand reminisce about something
that kind of takes your.

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