September 19, 2024 • 59 mins
Sattler alumnus Timothy Miller reflects on how his journey of faith led him to pursue a calling in pastoral ministry and family business. Timothy shares insights on the importance of spiritual disciplines, integrating faith with work, and how the gospel shapes our view of life’s challenges. They explore the significance of witnessing to the resurrection in everyday life and how even ordinary vocations can provide powerful moments for evangelism. Timothy also offers advice on overcoming fear in sharing the gospel and building meaningful relationships within a Christian context.
Learn more about studying Biblical and Religious Studies at Sattler College:
https://sattler.edu/academics/majors/biblical-and-religious-studies/
Mentioned in this episode:
- Prosynergy – marketing and bookkeeping businesses
- Practicing the Way – by John Mark Comer
- Oliver Finds His Way – children's book by Phyllis Root
- The Wingfeather Saga – book series by Andrew Peterson
- Blessed Are the Misfits – by Brant Hansen
Timestamps:
0:04 – Introducing Timothy Miller and His Journey at Sattler
14:52 – Discussing Bivocational Ministry and Family Life
18:51 – The Role of Faith in Everyday Work
29:10 – Developing Spiritual Disciplines in Family and Ministry
41:40 – Overcoming Fear in Evangelism and Witnessing to the Resurrection
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Zack Johnson (00:04):
It is September 5th 2024.
I'm here with Timothy, theTimothy Miller.
How are you doing, timothy?
Timothy Miller (00:13):
I'm doing real well.
It's my birthday, so whatbetter day to be on a podcast.
Zack Johnson (00:19):
I did not know that Happy birthday, thank.
You know that happy birthday,so thank you.
I'd love, I'd love to just uhget a quick intro to who you are
.
Um, I don't have a bio oranything, but who are you, what
are you about and, uh, what aresome of your passions?
Timothy Miller (00:37):
yeah, so I'm timothy miller.
Uh, I'm a sattler alumni.
I was part of the inauguralclass, the class of 2022.
And so I lived in Boston almostfour years working on a
biblical studies degree.
I am now back in Sarasota,florida, which is where I grew
up, and currently pastoring in alocal church here called Hope
(01:01):
Fellowship, in a local churchhere called Hope Fellowship.
I'm also involved in a familybusiness, a furniture store, and
then I have four very energeticboys who I spend a lot of time
with, and one beautiful wife whois a very amazing person.
Zack Johnson (01:20):
That was a beautiful introduction, and then
can you just remind me onething we have in common, I think
, is our love of naming children.
What are your boys'?
Timothy Miller (01:31):
names Timothy.
My oldest is Malachi, he'sseven.
My next is a five-year-old Hisname is Justice, our
three-year-old is Cohen, andthen our youngest is almost one.
He'll be one next week and hisname is Creed.
Zack Johnson (01:49):
Creed, I actually remember a conversation with you
where you met somebody and theyhad children that had very
similar names to yours and itbuilds some sort of camaraderie.
Do you remember thatconversation?
I can't remember who we werechatting about.
Timothy Miller (02:02):
Yeah, One of my professors had a good friend who
their first two boys had theexact same name as ours.
They were Malachi and Justice.
And then our thirds aredifferent.
We're Cohen and they were.
Theirs was Asher, I think, butwe had talked about Asher for
Cohen, so it must be a lot ofsimilar thinking.
Zack Johnson (02:24):
This is a side tangent, but I'm just going to
go on it.
I'm still convinced that wehave free choice in naming
children, but we're completelyshaped by something that that
makes us choose similar names.
I'm I.
Timothy Miller (02:36):
We had a.
We had a great conversationabout that when you founded this
last winter.
Zack Johnson (02:40):
Right, that's, that's right uh, but I'm going
to reiterate that that'scontinues to be the trend, that
continues to be out here.
Timothy Miller (02:48):
We're we're affected by our cultural milieu.
I think is the technical way ofsaying it.
You can't get around it, that'sright.
Zack Johnson (02:56):
Well, I'll throw you a couple of softballs here.
I know that the podcastaudience we're not exactly sure
who listens to this, but I knowthat when I chatted with some of
the new students here, some ofthem had listened, and so it's a
Sattler-centric audience plussome people just probably tuning
in to see what we're up to andchecking in.
Why, way back in the day Ithink I met you in either 2017
(03:20):
or 2018, why did you choose togo to Sattler back then?
Timothy Miller (03:26):
or 2018, why did you choose to go to Sattler
back then?
The thing that caught myattention initially was the fact
that they were offeringbiblical languages at an
undergraduate level, inparticular, intensive,
communicative biblical languages, which is quite unique in the
college landscape.
Biblical languages, which isquite unique in the college
(03:47):
landscape, and my passion Ireally wanted to dig into
biblical Hebrew and Greek, andmost of the time you have to go
to seminary to really getserious with biblical languages.
But, not having anundergraduate degree, I wasn't
ready to make that step, so thisseemed like a great fit for me,
(04:07):
being able to jump right intobiblical languages at the
undergraduate level, anddefinitely have benefited
greatly from that.
I still read biblical Hebrewand biblical Greek every day in
my devotion, so it's been anextreme, really been a blessing
for me.
Zack Johnson (04:23):
How do you do that in your devotions?
I'm just curious, what doesthat look like?
Timothy Miller (04:28):
Yeah, it's pretty low key.
So for me, part of my dailydevotions is reading some from
the Old Testament and from theNew Testament, and so I still
read in English as well, becauseI can't get through stuff
nearly as fast in Hebrew andGreek, but I try to at least
every day.
(04:48):
It ends up usually averagingmore like five to six days a
week that I try to read at leasta couple verses of both the Old
Testament and the New Testament.
So I have a Hebrew reader'sBible and a Greek reader's Bible
in my devotional spot anddepending on how much time I
have, I'll spend more or lesstime in each of them.
(05:09):
So since I graduated Sattler,I've read through the Torah.
Now I just finished thatrecently and I'm into Judges, so
the Torah is the first fivebooks of the Old Testament.
So I've just I think I'm inalmost to the second chapter of
Judges now and I'm just going totry to read through the whole
Old Testament.
It'll take a while.
(05:30):
But then in the New Testament,after I graduated, I started in
the Gospels and I've readMatthew, mark, luke, just
finished John and I'm startingin Acts now.
Zack Johnson (05:44):
It's like that's so encouraging to hear that it's
still alive and alive and wellwith you.
I think that's that's the wholepoint, right?
I get such a thrill out of it.
Timothy Miller (05:53):
I I have so many good memories, Like I'll get to
a word and like oh, I rememberthe first time Jesse introduced
this word to Dr Schumann, theHebrew professor at Sal.
I remember the first time heintroduced this word to us and
there's usually stories andmemories associated with them.
So, yeah, it's been anextremely valuable part of my
spiritual disciplines.
Zack Johnson (06:13):
Yeah, well, I'll just throw in a pitch for
Sattler that we're doubling downon the biblical languages.
We actually hired like one Ithink it's just like one of 10
communicative Greek teachers,that's like obsessed with that,
and they showed up this fall.
So now we sort of got DrSchumann on the Hebrew and this
(06:34):
new guy is actually he's fromMexico.
Originally His name's Jose, buthe actually has more props than
Dr Schumann, so he's walkingaround campus Is that possible?
possible, it is possible.
He's like possible it is.
It's a.
I was just been laughing at itbecause I remember this.
Timothy Miller (06:52):
can I tell a quick story?
This is a little bit of a side,please, yeah aside, but uh, I
was sitting in dr schumann'soffice one day and we're I don't
know what we were talking aboutand he said that, um, when he
decided to go the communicativeHebrew route and he was getting
all these props and stuff, hismom was so embarrassed by him
because she thinks, oh, he'sthis doctor who's a college
(07:13):
professor, and she comes intohis office and there's stuffed
animals laying everywhere andshe's getting on and like he
needs to clean up and look moreprofessional.
And we had a good laugh aboutthat.
So if you know what acommunicative uh language
teacher is, that is beingprofessional.
Zack Johnson (07:27):
having props, that's all over the place yeah,
I, uh, I have a funny story fromtwo years ago.
We were interviewing aprofessor I won't say who it was
and they wanted like a pointerto use to point at us the the
screen and we were in the.
We were in the communicativelanguage class and there was a
sword laying in the corner.
(07:48):
So this biology teacher picksup a sword and and is teaching
the class about biology with asword.
I always, I always get a kickout of that.
But yeah, so we're doublingdown and dr schumann and his
name is jose diaz they'reactually planning on doing
summer intensives, doing a softlaunch this summer for just like
really in-depth biblicallanguages, and we're hoping to
(08:10):
offer it a little bit beyondjust the Sattler crowd.
So, or the Sattler four year,the Sattler four years, anyway,
that's.
That's great to hear.
I know I've been inspired bythe whole cutting the English
umbilical cord idea, but that'svery far away for me.
Timothy Miller (08:25):
Yeah, and just to be clear, I'm not, uh, I'm
not close to cutting the cord.
I, I'm, uh, I, I, I.
I gained great benefit from it.
It's definitely not myexclusive.
I'm not skilled enough to readit exclusively and put it that
way.
Zack Johnson (08:39):
That's right.
And then I just love to hearyou.
You graduated in the first year, or the first 22.
What have you been up to sinceyou graduated?
Timothy Miller (08:49):
I know you kind of mentioned it in your bio, but
yeah, so I graduated in thespring of 22 and we moved back
to the community where I grew upSarasota, florida and I had
been involved in church ministrythe church I grew up in before
we left for Sattler, and so whenI came back I joined the
(09:17):
leadership team again, so I'm apastor in the church it's a
church of about 150 here on theedge of Sarasota, and so I got
involved in that and then alsomy parents own a furniture store
that I had grown up working inand stepped back into the store
as well.
So I'm in a managerial positionin the furniture store and so
(09:41):
between church and work, or thestore and family, I keep my
schedule fairly full.
Zack Johnson (09:52):
Yeah, I can imagine and can you just explain
a little bit about how you sortof think about them as sort of
bivocational Christians.
It's actually a pretty uniquefacet of people in the world who
take on a it could be afull-time ministry position, but
you also have a full-time job.
(10:14):
So how do you think about thatand are you surrounded?
Is that your background and isthat familiar to you?
Timothy Miller (10:23):
Yeah, it's the only thing I ever saw growing up
in my church background.
Um, I I'd say like I'vewrestled with it pretty deeply
on whether this is the wisestpath for churches.
Um, I think there's an argumentto be made for full-time
pastors, at least some level ofleadership that is full time in
(10:45):
the church.
Um, but there is also a benefitto the bi-locational ministry.
Um, there there's definitely aplace for it.
Uh, I, I tell otherbi-locational ministers are some
of the craziest people in theworld.
Uh, because, uh, we voluntarilychoose to uh do a work that
(11:07):
oftentimes reaps very littlefinancial benefit and and yet
lots of emotional uh strain.
Uh, so, yeah, it's, uh, it'sbut I say that kind of tongue in
cheek, cause it is it's anextremely rewarding work as well
, and, uh, and sometimes there'sa benefit to being able to.
Anybody who's been in churchfor very long knows there's
(11:30):
times where you need to just beable to go do something else and
get off the strain of some ofthe things that are a struggle
in church, and so having anothervocation that you're able to go
kind of pour some energy intocan sometimes help you even.
Um, keep, keep both in balance.
Zack Johnson (11:48):
Sort of like a sabbatical like or sabbatical
like concepts, yeah, yeah, I, uh, I can sympathize.
I sympathize with you on that,that.
The idea of yeah having a lotat stake and the payoff here
seems, uh, you really have toknow the bible to understand the
(12:10):
payoff yeah, no, it'sabsolutely.
Timothy Miller (12:14):
Uh, it's not a huge.
Church work often carrieslittle um benefit right now.
It often takes years to see thefruit of your labors and many
times it feels like the rewardis small.
But we know in the upside downkingdom that, even though it may
(12:36):
appear sometimes like thereward is small, that this is
really storing up reward thatmatters when we give ourselves
to for Christ's bride.
So, yeah, it's well worth itand yeah, well, let's I'll.
Zack Johnson (12:53):
This will lead into sort of a bigger
conversation here, and I'm Iknow you've put a lot of thought
into this.
So, with that being said,people sort of understanding
that you're a full-time ministerbut you also have a full-time
job.
So how do you think aboutintegrating I'm going to use the
(13:14):
word evangelism into yourvocation there, and I know that
you've probably studied somepeople in history that have done
this in unique ways.
People in history that havedone this have done this in
unique ways.
So I'd love to hear about yourthoughts on just that whole idea
of integrating evangelism intoyour vocation.
Timothy Miller (13:32):
Yeah, this is another example where I do think
bivocational ministry can be areally good path, in that I was
talking with another localpastor last year and he's a
full-time pastor and he saidsomething he's like there is a
blessing you bivocational guyshave that we don't, which is
you're out working among yourpeople more regularly, kind of
(13:56):
in everyday environments,whereas, like for a full-time
someone who's in full-timeministry, often they're working
with people mostly in thecontext of kind of formal church
environments, less so ineveryday life.
And I think there's something tothat where not only do I get to
(14:18):
work, there's people in thebusiness that I work with that
are part of my church, so I getto have kind of those informal
conversations throughout thenormal warp and woof of life
where hard things come up andhave to work.
Through them you can see howpeople are responding to life.
There's that.
(14:38):
And then there's also you'reworking with the public and it
gives you an opportunity towitness for Christ.
You're working with the publicand and it gives you an
opportunity to witness forChrist, whereas church ministry
you're often only working withchurch people or if you're, if
you're a full-time pastoral,it's a little harder to to find
avenues to be in moreevangelistic relationships.
So a bivocational ministrygives you kind of a natural path
(15:04):
to connect with people who arenot currently Jesus followers,
and that can be a real blessing.
So do you want me to go down ahistorical example of that?
Then that I found inspiring.
Yeah, let's jump into it.
I found inspiring.
Let's jump into it.
(15:25):
So there's a little known guyin the Anabaptist movement who I
believe it was pretty early onin the Anabaptist movement there
was some mid-1500s or sothere's a guy named Hans Nodler
who is a needle merchant and hebecomes passionate about Jesus
(15:46):
and his kingdom and and some ofthe beliefs that Anabaptists
were promoting, that you're uh,you have to voluntarily choose
to be a part of God's kingdom.
It's not something you're borninto and um, but he's not.
He's not someone who has formalministry education.
He's not someone who's um,dedicated to full-time ministry,
(16:08):
as it were, you could say.
But he's just a common needlemerchant and he, he the only
record we have of him is in acourt case where he's actually
had charges brought against himand they're questioning him
about his, what he's doing andwhy he's evangelizing and what
he's teaching.
And it becomes obvious thathe's taken it upon himself that
(16:31):
as he goes from town to townselling needles, that he tells
people about the gospel and hespeaks with them about the
Christian way.
And it's a really incredibleexample, I think, of someone who
felt that Great Commission zealand decided that he needed to
make it a part of his everydaylife and so he was like
(16:54):
everywhere I went, everywhere Igo, I'm just making sure I tell
people about Jesus and I foundthat really inspiring to remind
(17:14):
me you know my work that- I getto do in to the public is an
opportunity to always be readyto, to share the gospel.
Zack Johnson (17:17):
And and I'm just curious, I don't want to put you
on the spot in your vocation Doyou, do you get that
opportunity and do?
Timothy Miller (17:28):
you find yourself regularly exercising
that.
I think it comes and goes somebased on what I'm doing at the
time.
So in I've done differentthings in the company.
When I did sales, where I'mactually selling furniture to
people I had a lot ofopportunities during that time
because you're working withpeople outside people all day
long and you often spend you canspend a few hours easily
(17:53):
working with somebody trying tohelp them make decisions, and
often the course of thoseconversations, just other things
in life come up and I found alot of opportunities when I was
doing that to bring God into theconversation or Christianity
and have conversations aboutwhat people believed.
What I'm doing now, I'm more ona managerial, more on the
(18:18):
administrative side and I'mworking more internally than
externally, and so I'd saythere's less opportunities but
they still come up because, yeah, that there are.
There are chances that ariseand so I have to be really
intentional because they're notas frequent.
(18:38):
I think I have to be moreintentional about being ready
when they do come out up and andI'm trying to make sure I don't
miss them.
Zack Johnson (19:04):
Yeah, that's right , and I'm curious I'm going to
go into a topic that we've beendiscussing in our own church
community here in East Boston.
It's a really interesting bookabout like the pressure sort of,
these spiritual pressures thatget sort of implicitly get put
on people.
That might not necessarily beapplicable to everybody at all
(19:25):
times he sort of talks about Ithink he's on some level of the
of the autism scale and but he'spretty high functioning and so
some of the things thatChristians expect of him are
like the most challenging thingsin the whole world and so and
he gets into evangelism a littlebit on, like what's, what's the
(19:50):
church's role in, inencouraging evangelism but not
making it a while doing it in ahealthy way.
That's not sort of a burden,like if you don't do this, then
you're not up to par with thepeople who are doing evangelism.
Does my question make sense toyou?
How do you what's like thebalanced approach to encouraging
(20:13):
evangelism without lettingpeople fall into the pressure
trap, even?
Timothy Miller (20:25):
though you do want to create good pressure.
It's a funny, it's kind of aconundrum no-transcript sales.
(20:57):
It's something where I'minteracting with the public
every day, often withunbelievers almost every day,
which means I need to really beready to give an answer for the
hope that lies within me,because I'm going to have a lot
of opportunities, whereas I havehad a little bit of a hard time
shifting the mindset with whatI'm doing now.
(21:18):
I don't interact withunbelievers nearly as much as I
once did and at one point thatwas frustrating for me.
But I think I've seen that inthis season of life I'm I'm more
discipleship oriented ofbelievers than evangelistic of
unbelievers, because most of mywork is connected with helping
(21:41):
fellow employees work throughrelational issues, often people
who are Christians.
I'm trying to live out what itmeans to be a Christian in our
workplace and so maybe there'smore discipleship stuff that's
required of me than straight orclassical evangelism, and I
think being okay with that, notbeing guilty but then being
(22:03):
ready.
So I thought of when you askedthat question I remember just
last year.
I don't do sales anymore, butthere was a couple that I had
worked with a few years backActually, it was the summer of
2020.
I sold them a whole house fullof furniture.
I'd worked with them for hoursand had a lot of good
conversations.
I don't remember having likeeven super spiritual
(22:23):
conversations with them, maybe afew here and there, and at some
point I guess they had realizedI'm I'm a pastor and like, out
of the blue, I hadn't seen themin a while.
They they had stopped in andjust we talked.
I saw him at the store, wetalked, connected a little bit
and um, and had a goodconversation.
They asked about my family andthey had talked about having us
(22:45):
over for a meal sometime.
Just kind of it was easy tohave a conversation with them.
And and then a few months later,the the wife, calls me and says
I've lost my husband and like,she contacted me at the store
and says, like you know, can youpray for me?
And so I just ended up prayingwith her and and he had died
(23:07):
unexpectedly.
There's some, some mysteryaround what happened and it was
a really difficult situation.
Uh, long story short, she endsup asking me um, she, I didn't.
She asked me a few weeks laterwill you do like a celebration
of life for him?
And he was not a Christian shewas, and she said there's going
(23:31):
to be lots of his friends therewho are not Christians.
And I was like, well, I'mwilling to do it, but can I
share what I believe, can Ishare the gospel?
And she's like, oh, I'd lovefor you to be able to do that.
And so, even though I wasn'tgetting everyday opportunities
to share the gospel in my newrole because of this connection
(23:51):
I had previously with somebody,I then ended up having an
opportunity to share the gospelat a celebration of life to a
group of 50 or 60 people, manyof which I think were unchurched
.
I had a pretty big audiencethere for just at least a little
bit.
That was the fruit of earlierconversations in a different
(24:13):
season of life.
That was the fruit of earlierconversations in a different
season of life.
And so I try to keep thosethings in mind.
And then, obviously, I think ofmy wife.
Like her primary role right nowis homeschooling, which isn't
going to be something that leadsto a lot of evangelistic
opportunities, and so right nowit's probably not a primary
(24:35):
vocation of hers.
It doesn't mean she shouldn'tstill be aware and trying to be
ready if those opportunitiesarise, but it's probably not the
season for her to be headingdowntown to do street ministry
twice a week or something.
There are other things that sheshould be fully devoting
herself to that and not feelingguilt, but this isn't a big part
(24:57):
of her life right now.
Zack Johnson (24:59):
Yeah, that that makes sense.
Thanks for thanks for sharingthat story.
What did you?
What did you talk about?
You didn't know him super well,so did.
Was it just like a?
Did you just give the the the?
What did you talk about?
I was going to make a joke, butI won't.
Timothy Miller (25:18):
I well, no, I I talked about um, oh man, what
did I talk about?
I ended up talking about thestory because of Winn-Dixie.
I don't know if you've everheard the story because of
Winn-Dixie.
Is that a dog?
Is it a dog?
It's a kid's book, fantasticbook.
(25:39):
There was a movie made about itas well.
Yeah, it's a really good kid'sbook and the primary point of
the story is that we all havehurts that never heal.
I think is kind of the big pointof the story, and so I was
(26:01):
reading that book at the timewith my boys and I used that
story.
Many of it seemed like quite afew of the people who were there
were familiar with it, and Iused that to try to say we know,
this is true, everybody knowsthere's hurts in life that never
it seems like never heal, likewe all have hard things that
happen, and this was one ofthose extremely difficult things
(26:24):
that I think was going to bereally hard for people to fully
know how to move forward on.
But the books think the booksum response to that question is
like what do you do with thesehurts that never heal?
It's kind of like just be kindto people and make friends with
his like, build goodrelationships, which is there's
(26:46):
some truth to that idea.
But I I tried to use that tosegue to jesus recognized that
this was the world we live inand he offered a greater
solution than just being kind toeach other.
But there is actually aredemption to the, to the hurts
that we face, and a fullrestoration and healing.
(27:08):
That's possible through him andhis kingdom, and I think I'm
that's kind of how I got to thegospel.
But that was the bridge I builtto the gospel was like there is
a way to heal the hurts that weface in life, and I kind of
skated around like I tried tobless him as much as I could,
knowing that he had not beensomeone who had professed faith.
But there's others who havegone before me who have given
(27:32):
wise pastoral wisdom on what todo when you're overseeing.
This was called a celebrationof life, but of an unbeliever,
and I definitely benefitedgreatly from people who had been
through those kind ofcircumstances and helped me
think about how to use the rightlanguage.
Zack Johnson (27:51):
Got it, and this a just a side question I'll just
say real quick it was a.
Timothy Miller (27:56):
It was one of the most unique experiences I've
ever had as a pastor and it hadnothing to do with me being
like my church ministry.
It was totally an opportunitythat arose because of my
business, because of thevocation I have in business, and
so it was.
It was one of those momentswhere I was like I really was
(28:17):
grateful to God for thebivocational ministry that I had
and and the opportunities thatgave me to be a witness to his
kingdom.
Zack Johnson (28:24):
So Well, I think what I was going to mention is I
always forget where I hearthings, but there's this kind of
a funny story about a Christianwho they took some corporate
job and they really wanted theopportunity for evangelism, and
so they said I'm just going tobe a super diligent worker, full
(28:48):
of character, full of integrity, full of hope, displaying all
the attributes and really livethe faith, but not profess the
faiths verbally, and and so thatwas going to be their approach.
And one day somebody knocked ontheir door and said hey, can I
talk to you about something?
And the person was like this isthe moment I've been waiting
(29:10):
for, and they closed the doorand they said I've noticed
something different about you.
Are you a vegan?
And so I don't.
That story illustrates thatsomehow, professing with words
the truth is very important inthis whole idea of how to do, is
(29:37):
very important in this wholeidea of how to do evangelism in
vocation.
Timothy Miller (29:40):
And, like you can't, it's really hard to do
evangelism without theopportunity to speak, and the
gospel is directly tied toverbal pronouncement like yeah,
I, the idea that I know it'scommonly quoted that Francis of
Assisi said preach the gospelalways.
If necessary, use words.
(30:01):
Use words right.
Yeah, I don't.
There's some truth to the ideathat, like, our lifestyle should
proclaim the gospel, and that'strue.
But the gospel is, in nature, averbal pronouncement, um, and
so there's no we.
We have to combine both.
(30:21):
We have to live a lifestylethat's worthy of the gospel and
we have to have our mouths readyto, um, make a defense, be a
witness for the gospel, um,whenever we give the opportunity
.
Because what is our vocation asChristians?
And I was just struck, I wasreading Acts.
I just started reading Actsagain.
(30:42):
And what does Jesus say to thedisciples before he ascends to
the right hand of the Father?
He says you are to be witnessesto the resurrection, like that
was their vocation, waswitnesses of the resurrection
Interesting, and I do thinkevery Christian, that is our
(31:08):
primary vocation in this life isto be a witness to the
resurrection.
So there's ways to witness tothe resurrection with our
lifestyle, but in general,that's actually being ready to
tell people about theresurrection and the hope that
it gives us as christians so I,I love so, if that's, our
(31:29):
primary vocation is to bewitnesses of the resurrection.
Zack Johnson (31:32):
Can, can you, can you just like build that out a
little bit about what that means, what the implications are for
Christians, as that is avocation beyond some of the
things we've just talked about.
Yeah, I think we, yeah, I thinkthat's a familiar.
Timothy Miller (31:50):
I'll give you an example of my, of a failure of,
of my own no-transcript, andyou can get to go to heaven or
(32:18):
whatever.
And so we feel like that's whatwe need to do, and if we don't
do that, then we're not beingevangelistic.
But in reality, I think whatwe're called to do is actually
much more exciting, which is,wherever we go in life, there
are circumstances that ariseconstantly that show the death
(32:39):
that's in the world, yeah, andwe don't know what to do with
the death that we face day inand day out.
And so we should be ready atall times to say but there's
actually another hope, there's ahope of a resurrection, and
this is how we can have thathope of resurrection, life,
which is to give our lives tothe one who rose from the dead.
(33:00):
And just I was thinking aboutthat because just yesterday I
was, I did, I was out doing arepair I do some repair work for
the store and it was an olderman who had bought something
many years ago.
We went out to do a littlerepair on something he had and
in the middle of our work hecomes barreling into the room
(33:22):
and is like you wouldn't believe, did you hear there was a
shooting in Georgia, a schoolshooting, and I I didn't.
And then he said and theRussians are interfering with
our election and Iran isinterfering with our election.
And me and my coworker bothstood there just kind of like oh
, and?
(33:44):
And he went on to say like oh,the world is just such a mess
and we have like no idea how tofix it.
And we're, um, and in thatmoment the thing that popped
into my head was, yeah, we don't, but, but jesus has promised
that there's a resurrectionthat's coming for us and for the
(34:04):
world, that will reverse allthe wrongs in this life, that
will turn death to life and andthat is the answer to, to the
school shootings to, uh, powerhungry warlords.
Um, and I was a coward, Ididn't, I just didn't say what I
(34:25):
thought, um, and I'm notexactly sure why.
It caught me off guard in somesense.
I was like I don't know if thisis.
You know those you starttelling it.
I don't know if this is.
You know those you starttelling it.
I don't know if this is theright time to say that.
I'm going to sound trite, but Ithink God, almost certainly the
Holy Spirit, was prompting me tobe a witness to the
resurrection right here in thisplace, where this man is talking
(34:47):
about all like is wrestlingwith the death, the reality of
death in the world and theseemingly powerlessness we have
in the face of it.
And I had an opportunity thereto say, hey, but wait, listen to
what Jesus said and look whathe did.
And I didn't take it.
I failed.
And I think those kinds ofopportunities actually come up
(35:09):
fairly regularly for almostevery Christian, fairly
regularly for almost everyChristian, where discussion
around sin, death, like all thebrokenness of the world, comes
up, and I think the Christian'sresponse should always be like
but what does the resurrectionsay about this?
And like how does theresurrection change how we view
(35:31):
this?
And that's been somethingthat's just been like really
burning in my heart, and yet Istill sometimes don't fail to
verbalize it, which I think is agenuine failure, because I
wasn't.
I didn't have an opportunity todisplay the was I.
I mean I was being a goodperson by by following up and
like taking care of his problemand doing my work well and all
(35:54):
of that.
But I actually had anopportunity to be verbal about
the hope of the resurrection wehave in Jesus and I didn't take
it, and I don't think there wasanything particularly unique
about my work in that momentthat witnessed to the
resurrection.
Zack Johnson (36:08):
Right, right, and so I guess the a million dollar
question could be what are someways to overcome that cowardice
that I think?
I think I, like you, said itwell that we're prompted.
But many times the easy way outis not to be verbal about, not
(36:31):
to use words with the truthsthat we believe in.
Have you and going back to thatstory about the couple you
shared, sometimes you'reprompted and it's really easy to
to answer.
You know, like, if someone'slike, oh, are you a pastor?
Then that's a, that's asoftball right.
But if you, if you don't getthat prompt, have you thought of
(36:53):
any ways to overcome the,overcome the, the tendency
towards cowardice, and pressinto the, even if it's a two
sentence, a two sentence line,you could say, or something like
that, that's a hard question no, no, it's, it's honestly, I
think it's like a lot of thingsin life the more you do it, the
(37:14):
easier it is.
Timothy Miller (37:15):
Yeah, and we become the habits that we
cultivate, and so if our habitis to be a coward and to not
open our mouths, like thatalmost always just gets more
entrenched, and if the habit isto normally, when those
(37:36):
opportunities arise, open yourmouth and witness to the
resurrection, it actuallybecomes easier to do and starts
to feel more natural.
And probably the reason Ifailed in that moment is that I
haven't.
It's been a little while sinceI had a conversation with an
unbeliever where I really wentinto the hopes I have, and so I
(38:04):
know, yeah, just having thatmindset of wanting to do it
regularly and looking for theopportunity even so, maybe
something I have found that hashelped me at times is there's a
lot of conversations that comeup, even among christians, where
we can kind of think like theworld, where maybe a christian
(38:26):
comes up to me and says did youhear that there was a school
shooting, that russia's doingthis, that, um, you know, all
this chaos is happening, and wejust kind of follow them right
down the dead end trail of like,oh, it's all hopeless and bleak
and we all feel discouraged.
But instead of letting thathappen, saying, hey, let's think
(38:49):
about what's happening here inlight of what Jesus has promised
us, hey, let's think aboutwhat's happening here in light
of what Jesus has promised us,and how would that change how we
think about this particularheadline or thing that's
happening in the world right now?
And if we just verbalize it toeach other more regularly, like
this is our hope, I think itbecomes more natural then to
(39:10):
also verbalize it when we're incontext with unbelievers.
And I do think that's somethingI found helpful is that when
I'm thinking in that kind of way, just in conversations with
other Christians, it also seemsto flow over into Because I have
more conversations withChristians than I do
(39:30):
non-Christians Like it's just.
I think that's the natural way,like the body of Christ becomes
your primary family, which isthe right way, like the right
thing.
But then those conversationsinside the body of Christ about
what our hope is matter to andhow we respond to the sin and
the death and the brokennessthat is in the forefront of our
(39:56):
lives often and yeah, I actuallylike that about it feels easy
to sort of it's not gossip butcomplain with fellow Christians
rather than than to reconfirmthe hopes.
Zack Johnson (40:10):
I think we don't have to get, we don't have to
get into it, but I think thepolitical election coming up is
another massive, massive hope,opportunity, hope opportunity.
Timothy Miller (40:26):
This is a great season for us to practice that
discipline of the hope, of theresurrection in the face of
instability which our countrywill certainly be going through
the next few months that's right.
Zack Johnson (40:37):
I still remember watching the last presidential
inauguration with you.
That seems like a long time ago, but we need to go to Emmett's
again.
Yeah, maybe, hey, if you're inBoston, I'll take you to
Emmett's.
Timothy Miller (40:52):
All right.
So if I'm in Boston January2024.
25, yeah, 2025, yeah, thenyou'll take me to Emmett's.
All right, that's right 2025.
Zack Johnson (41:01):
Yeah, yeah, 2025.
Yeah, then you'll take me down.
I'm sorry, that's right, let me.
I'm going to do a couple ofjust like rapid fire questions
here just to pull some, someother things out of you.
I I know that you and your wifeare pretty I would call you
voracious readers and reallyinterested in in, like
literature for, for children andthings like that.
Are there any?
(41:22):
Are there any other books thatyou and your wife recommend to
other families or homeschoolersthat you've bumped into?
Uh?
Children's books yeah, just Ithink or any, anything that
produces character.
It's those things are are alwaysfun to fun to talk about yeah,
(41:44):
no, there's so many goods.
Timothy Miller (41:46):
There's so many bad children's books, but
there's so many good ones too.
Um, and this is a greatquestion that puts me on the
spot.
I'm trying to remember.
Okay, I'll start.
Yeah, this is a great one forkids.
My favorite all-time book isOliver Finds His Way.
That's what I have you heard ofthat one.
Zack Johnson (42:07):
I've heard of it.
Tell me about it.
Timothy Miller (42:09):
It's this little bear who gets lost in the woods
and becomes very frustrated,and he just cries and cries and
doesn't know what he's going todo, until he starts thinking and
it's like, okay, how toactually get myself out of this
situation?
And so he ends up roaring asloud as he can, and then he
hears his parents roar back andthen he finds his way home.
(42:31):
It's a beautifully illustratedbook, the story is phenomenal,
it captivates kids' imaginationand it's teaching a really
important principle that I goover with my boys on a regular
basis, which is there arenatural tendency, when we get
frustrated or like lost, or likefeel like we're up against
(42:52):
something we can't overcome it,just like I just want to get
discouraged, I just want to cry,I just want to like throw a fit
, but in reality that doesn'thelp anybody, it doesn't help
you, it doesn't get you out ofthe situation.
And so to be able to controlyour like calm down and think,
okay, how do I actually respondin a way that will help me
resolve this difficulty I'm upagainst, which is something I
(43:16):
need to be reminded of prettyregularly and something I'm
trying to remind my boys ofregularly, and so that book
reminds me of that principle,and so I love that book for
little guys.
Oliver finds his way.
Zack Johnson (43:33):
I'm going to go get that.
Any other ones on the top ofyour mind before the next rapid
fire.
Timothy Miller (43:38):
Yeah, yeah.
So I for older children, I'llnever stop promoting the virtues
of the wing feather saga.
It's one of my favorite.
It's for a little bit olderkids my seven year olds just at
the point of being able to maybewrap his mind around someone.
It's more like eight to twelveprobably, but it's more of a of
(44:04):
a fantasy novel series.
But it has so many reallyvaluable moral lessons
throughout it that I think arereally.
It brings up really goodconversations with families.
So we were doing a read aloudwith our boys in that one and
there's a lot of things thatcome up that have provoked
(44:24):
really important conversations.
Zack Johnson (44:28):
When do you guys read aloud in your?
Is it daily, once a week?
Timothy Miller (44:35):
So my wife does read aloud with them almost
every day as part of the schoolrhythm, almost every day as part
of the school rhythm, and thenusually we're doing a read aloud
of some kind before ourdevotional time evenings.
So we kind of are alwayslooking for new read aloud books
to to do as a family together.
Zack Johnson (44:57):
Great, and then I'm going to.
I this is another putting youon the spot, but not really so.
You did your capstone on.
Why is the on catechesis orcatechisms?
Yeah, has that made your wayinto your, your life at all, or
did it get left by the wayside?
Timothy Miller (45:17):
so, to be honest , I've spent not, I have not
spent a lot of time on it sincegraduation.
Unfortunately, there's there'swork to be done to get it ready
for publication.
Um, what I have done is started.
I did start to use it with myboys, uh, and I realized that I
(45:38):
was still uh, aiming a little.
What I have now was a littleover their heads, like I needed
to simplify more for their agerange.
So I've been working through itwith them as I have time and
taking notes and then trying togo back and simplify so that it,
(46:00):
it, um, will be more beneficialfor them.
So, yeah, I am continuing towork on it, but can you?
Zack Johnson (46:08):
can you define catechesis or catechism for the
layman?
Timothy Miller (46:14):
Yeah, it's.
It's the practice of repeatingthe important things to um.
Repeating the important thingsto younger people who need
instruction is basically theidea.
It's a practice that startedearly on the church.
It started more as an oralpractice where the very core
(46:34):
important principles of thechurch would be taught orally to
catechumens.
Core important principles ofthe church would be taught
orally to catechumens, who werepeople who were candidates for
baptism, who wanted to becomeChristians, and often it's
centered around things like theApostles' Creed.
(46:55):
It started out pretty basic butover time it can get more
extensive and so it's often usedas a way of either um teaching
the print, the core principlesof the Christian faith to, to,
to children, or to baptismalcandidates.
Um, it's been the primary waysit's been used throughout
Christian history, got it.
Zack Johnson (47:33):
And then I'm going to switch gears again here.
So when you, when I asked youabout why did people to share
that passion with, or is that anisolated passion?
And if isolated, is that okay,is a question I I ask this
(47:53):
selfishly because I'm alwayslooking for people with that
passion and, ironically, I havesome work to create that demand
and so there's not a ton ofpeople, of people whose instinct
are to be searching for thoseprograms that would develop that
skill set.
Timothy Miller (48:11):
Yeah, I honestly don't hear of a lot of people
who are particularly interested.
I think people are intrigued bythe idea.
Um, I think people areintrigued by the idea, but the
most common kind of thing that Ihear is people say like, oh,
like you don't really don't needto learn it because we have all
these tools that we can go backand look at the words anyways.
(48:32):
And they tell us what, what itmeans in Greek or Hebrew, and,
and so actually learning thelanguage isn't that important
anymore.
I've heard that objection.
I do think there's a hugedifference between actually
knowing how language works andthen just kind of jumping in and
trying to rip a word out andunderstand it just with the help
(48:55):
of a concordance.
It's not that it doesn't haveany value, but it's a very
different enterprise thanactually reading something in
its whole context.
So, yeah, I would say I don'thear of a lot who are interested
.
Usually, when someone becomesinterested, it's because they
(49:15):
have some kind of exposure tomore formal biblical studies,
where they study through a wholebook of the Bible in a more
intensive environment, like at aBible school I taught at, where
you would go through Romans orJohn or Matthew or Psalms.
Like almost always, when I seepeople actually do more
(49:36):
intensive study of a book andthey realize like how beautiful
and um, intricately crafted manyof the biblical books are, it
seems to fuel like this sense oflike I want to understand more,
and then that can lead to tohunger for biblical languages.
(49:56):
Um, but we're not really toooften we're we're kind of
trained to just dive into likeone verse at a time, here, there
and everywhere, and not reallythink about the bigger picture
that books are trying, thebigger message that a book of
the bible is trying tocommunicate.
And when you're doing that justkind of diving in here and
(50:18):
there and everywhere, maybe justall you need is the tools to be
able to parse words for you.
It makes sense to you.
But if you start to see how thewhole picture, like the whole
book, is actually important andthen the larger story in general
, I do think it starts to help.
You see that actuallyunderstanding the language just
has a real value.
Zack Johnson (50:39):
Yeah, I think it is valuable in uncovering those
bigger themes and stuff I, Ithink it's something that I was
gonna, I was gonna sort of ask aquestion about hey, in in those
daily devotionals, is that, isthat a meaning?
Has it been a meaningfulexperience to you to have that,
(50:59):
that opportunity to to look atthe original languages?
Because we we talk about thisidea of using as early on as you
can, under whatever tools youcan get to understand the bible,
just like take them, and it'skind of like the investment to
(51:20):
compounding interest into yourown spiritual growth, where if
you invest early on in theseskill sets, then over time you
know they build and build andbuild.
And I'm curious if it's, ifit's been meaningful to you, or
is it?
Is it geeky and intellectualand sort of?
And no, I'm serious, I'mserious about that and sort of.
(51:45):
And no, I'm serious, I'mserious about that because some
people was like oh get that awayfrom me like another.
Timothy Miller (51:48):
This is a great no, I love it.
So this is what I'll say.
I just want to up front say,for anyone who doesn't know the
biblical languages, like I am,what I'm about to say is not
saying you're deficient as aChristian in any way.
The Lord can absolutely givesomebody everything they need to
(52:09):
be a mature Christian throughjust study of English
translations of the Bible.
It is your heart orientationtoward the Word of God
fundamental, um key aboutwhether the Lord can speak to
you through scripture.
Um, not everybody has to learnthe original languages.
So just, I'm saying that upfront, um, but then, like, a
(52:34):
passion of mine is it does feellike when you start talking
about reading original languages, people often think like that's
for the academics, that's forthe scholars, the people who
actually don't really havespiritual passion, more of the
geeky, like starchy kind.
(52:55):
Reading scripture in theoriginal languages is often a
very devotional enterprise forme, right, that that fuels
worship, and and so I I heard NTright, say this one time, and I
think it's so true.
He said when he was a youngscholar, someone told him don't
(53:16):
use a different Bible for, like,your personal devotions and
then for your academic study.
And he said I immediatelythought to myself that's the
worst idea I've ever heard.
Right, and and I I always.
I couldn't more.
I don't always agree with NTWright, but I wholeheartedly
(53:39):
agree with him on that point,that that both our our more
academic enterprises withScripture can never be
disconnected from our devotionalenterprises with Scripture.
Because the minute we stopdigging into the Word of God to
understand the God of the Bible,the minute it turns into
something very different thanthe faith that's been handed
(54:02):
down to us by faithfulChristians through the
generations, because everyendeavor to understand scripture
is an endeavor to understandthe living God who speaks and
acts in our lives today.
And so I absolutely do findincredible devotional value in
my I think sometimes people feellike there's this, anything
(54:29):
spiritual happens through, justlike Emotions, emotional, like
there's some kind of deepfeeling and like God just beams
this knowledge into your headand then you're like yeah, I
have real knowledge, but then,like academic study of scripture
is is kind of just humanpowered study, um knowledge and
so.
But I want that real likespiritual.
(54:50):
My brother-in-lawbrother-in-law and I were having
this conversation recently andI and I just don't buy that
dichotomy like.
I think god is not opposed tointense study of his world and
his word.
And it is often in our workinghard at the discipline that had
(55:13):
been given to us in Christianity, like prayer, like scripture
reading, like fasting that inthat intense exertion to
understand and know more aboutGod he speaks to us in deep and
profound and meaningful ways.
And I have absolutely foundthat, as I dive deeper into
Greek and Hebrew, that Godspeaks to me in that discipline.
(55:37):
And that's not to say thatthere aren't people who let it
go to their heads and theybecome starchy, nerdy people who
think they're better thaneverybody who doesn't understand
.
And that's a real temptationand that is something that pride
will prevent you from actuallyunderstanding the God of the
Bible.
So that is a danger certainlyto be warned against and and
(55:59):
wary of yeah, thanks for thanksfor answering that.
Zack Johnson (56:03):
I, uh, I think it's just it's it's a
misconception.
I'm trying to convinceespecially young people,
especially young people, aboutincluding my own young self,
like if yeah, and I, I thinkthere's a little bit of a a
reason to make it compellingagain, because it it's
definitely doesn't have a coolvibe to it right now to to say
(56:26):
that you're gonna go and devoteyourself to, to the biblical
languages.
A lot of people are like, oh,you're gonna be a, you're gonna
be a scholar, but rather than tosay, no, I'm just, I just
really want to understand thescriptures.
So I'm just thinking about waysto talk about that, especially
towards that younger crowd rightnow.
One more question, and thenwe'll do.
(56:48):
I'll pitch it back to you asanything that you wanted to say.
So you are probably aware thatthe 500th anniversary of the
first baptism in the radicalreformation is coming up and I'm
just curious is that meaningfulto your community in any way?
(57:09):
Are you guys planning a way toremember that or not necessarily
?
Timothy Miller (57:16):
That's a great question.
There's not been anyconversation about it.
I've been thinking about it thelast month or two.
Actually, it's funny you bringit up.
It's like man, it's comingbecause I know you and I used to
talk about it I talk about?
Yeah, I have not taken anymeaningful steps to uh preparing
myself to commemorate it or mycommunity.
(57:37):
So what about you?
Zack Johnson (57:39):
we.
So hon hans Lehman is going todo like an evening in January
here and bring in some speakersto commemorate the baptism.
And then I still have been.
The 2027 date with Sattler'smartyrdom is still the one that
I really think should be thewhatever the fireworks.
(58:00):
But I've been morebrainstorming and haven't come
up with a solid idea.
But that idea of pack invitingpeople to commemorate some
well-produced form of content, Iknow the idea of a documentary,
a better documentary or even a.
Some people want us to try togo to a movie like a Sattler
(58:22):
movie somehow, but that's, Idon't know, nothing super
significant beyond Hans.
And then we're actuallycontemplating doing an alumni
and family history trip at somepoint over the summer into where
the Radical Girl Reformationhappened In 2027.
Timothy Miller (58:42):
Yeah, or or leading in the next, just in the
next two years, whenever youwould you go?
Zack Johnson (58:47):
I?
Timothy Miller (58:48):
would love to go .
I'm not promising anything, butthat you definitely would get
serious consideration for me.
Zack Johnson (58:54):
All right, got it well, I always end with just
saying, hey, is there?
Is there anything else you'dlike to say to our mystery
audience here?
Timothy Miller (59:06):
Nothing's coming to mind offhand.
Zack Johnson (59:09):
Hey well, timothy, thanks so much for taking the
time to chat with me and send myregards to your boys and your
wife.
Keep raising those humble, meekwarriors for, for the kingdom
and um, yeah, thanks, manappreciate you having me zach,
(59:31):
great to catch up again allright, take it easy.
It is September 5th 2024.
I'm here with Timothy, theTimothy Miller.
How are you doing, timothy?
Timothy Miller (00:13):
I'm doing real well.
It's my birthday, so whatbetter day to be on a podcast.
Zack Johnson (00:19):
I did not know that Happy birthday, thank.
You know that happy birthday,so thank you.
I'd love, I'd love to just uhget a quick intro to who you are
.
Um, I don't have a bio oranything, but who are you, what
are you about and, uh, what aresome of your passions?
Timothy Miller (00:37):
yeah, so I'm timothy miller.
Uh, I'm a sattler alumni.
I was part of the inauguralclass, the class of 2022.
And so I lived in Boston almostfour years working on a
biblical studies degree.
I am now back in Sarasota,florida, which is where I grew
up, and currently pastoring in alocal church here called Hope
(01:01):
Fellowship, in a local churchhere called Hope Fellowship.
I'm also involved in a familybusiness, a furniture store, and
then I have four very energeticboys who I spend a lot of time
with, and one beautiful wife whois a very amazing person.
Zack Johnson (01:20):
That was a beautiful introduction, and then
can you just remind me onething we have in common, I think
, is our love of naming children.
What are your boys'?
Timothy Miller (01:31):
names Timothy.
My oldest is Malachi, he'sseven.
My next is a five-year-old Hisname is Justice, our
three-year-old is Cohen, andthen our youngest is almost one.
He'll be one next week and hisname is Creed.
Zack Johnson (01:49):
Creed, I actually remember a conversation with you
where you met somebody and theyhad children that had very
similar names to yours and itbuilds some sort of camaraderie.
Do you remember thatconversation?
I can't remember who we werechatting about.
Timothy Miller (02:02):
Yeah, One of my professors had a good friend who
their first two boys had theexact same name as ours.
They were Malachi and Justice.
And then our thirds aredifferent.
We're Cohen and they were.
Theirs was Asher, I think, butwe had talked about Asher for
Cohen, so it must be a lot ofsimilar thinking.
Zack Johnson (02:24):
This is a side tangent, but I'm just going to
go on it.
I'm still convinced that wehave free choice in naming
children, but we're completelyshaped by something that that
makes us choose similar names.
I'm I.
Timothy Miller (02:36):
We had a.
We had a great conversationabout that when you founded this
last winter.
Zack Johnson (02:40):
Right, that's, that's right uh, but I'm going
to reiterate that that'scontinues to be the trend, that
continues to be out here.
Timothy Miller (02:48):
We're we're affected by our cultural milieu.
I think is the technical way ofsaying it.
You can't get around it, that'sright.
Zack Johnson (02:56):
Well, I'll throw you a couple of softballs here.
I know that the podcastaudience we're not exactly sure
who listens to this, but I knowthat when I chatted with some of
the new students here, some ofthem had listened, and so it's a
Sattler-centric audience plussome people just probably tuning
in to see what we're up to andchecking in.
Why, way back in the day Ithink I met you in either 2017
(03:20):
or 2018, why did you choose togo to Sattler back then?
Timothy Miller (03:26):
or 2018, why did you choose to go to Sattler
back then?
The thing that caught myattention initially was the fact
that they were offeringbiblical languages at an
undergraduate level, inparticular, intensive,
communicative biblical languages, which is quite unique in the
college landscape.
Biblical languages, which isquite unique in the college
(03:47):
landscape, and my passion Ireally wanted to dig into
biblical Hebrew and Greek, andmost of the time you have to go
to seminary to really getserious with biblical languages.
But, not having anundergraduate degree, I wasn't
ready to make that step, so thisseemed like a great fit for me,
(04:07):
being able to jump right intobiblical languages at the
undergraduate level, anddefinitely have benefited
greatly from that.
I still read biblical Hebrewand biblical Greek every day in
my devotion, so it's been anextreme, really been a blessing
for me.
Zack Johnson (04:23):
How do you do that in your devotions?
I'm just curious, what doesthat look like?
Timothy Miller (04:28):
Yeah, it's pretty low key.
So for me, part of my dailydevotions is reading some from
the Old Testament and from theNew Testament, and so I still
read in English as well, becauseI can't get through stuff
nearly as fast in Hebrew andGreek, but I try to at least
every day.
(04:48):
It ends up usually averagingmore like five to six days a
week that I try to read at leasta couple verses of both the Old
Testament and the New Testament.
So I have a Hebrew reader'sBible and a Greek reader's Bible
in my devotional spot anddepending on how much time I
have, I'll spend more or lesstime in each of them.
(05:09):
So since I graduated Sattler,I've read through the Torah.
Now I just finished thatrecently and I'm into Judges, so
the Torah is the first fivebooks of the Old Testament.
So I've just I think I'm inalmost to the second chapter of
Judges now and I'm just going totry to read through the whole
Old Testament.
It'll take a while.
(05:30):
But then in the New Testament,after I graduated, I started in
the Gospels and I've readMatthew, mark, luke, just
finished John and I'm startingin Acts now.
Zack Johnson (05:44):
It's like that's so encouraging to hear that it's
still alive and alive and wellwith you.
I think that's that's the wholepoint, right?
I get such a thrill out of it.
Timothy Miller (05:53):
I I have so many good memories, Like I'll get to
a word and like oh, I rememberthe first time Jesse introduced
this word to Dr Schumann, theHebrew professor at Sal.
I remember the first time heintroduced this word to us and
there's usually stories andmemories associated with them.
So, yeah, it's been anextremely valuable part of my
spiritual disciplines.
Zack Johnson (06:13):
Yeah, well, I'll just throw in a pitch for
Sattler that we're doubling downon the biblical languages.
We actually hired like one Ithink it's just like one of 10
communicative Greek teachers,that's like obsessed with that,
and they showed up this fall.
So now we sort of got DrSchumann on the Hebrew and this
(06:34):
new guy is actually he's fromMexico.
Originally His name's Jose, buthe actually has more props than
Dr Schumann, so he's walkingaround campus Is that possible?
possible, it is possible.
He's like possible it is.
It's a.
I was just been laughing at itbecause I remember this.
Timothy Miller (06:52):
can I tell a quick story?
This is a little bit of a side,please, yeah aside, but uh, I
was sitting in dr schumann'soffice one day and we're I don't
know what we were talking aboutand he said that, um, when he
decided to go the communicativeHebrew route and he was getting
all these props and stuff, hismom was so embarrassed by him
because she thinks, oh, he'sthis doctor who's a college
(07:13):
professor, and she comes intohis office and there's stuffed
animals laying everywhere andshe's getting on and like he
needs to clean up and look moreprofessional.
And we had a good laugh aboutthat.
So if you know what acommunicative uh language
teacher is, that is beingprofessional.
Zack Johnson (07:27):
having props, that's all over the place yeah,
I, uh, I have a funny story fromtwo years ago.
We were interviewing aprofessor I won't say who it was
and they wanted like a pointerto use to point at us the the
screen and we were in the.
We were in the communicativelanguage class and there was a
sword laying in the corner.
(07:48):
So this biology teacher picksup a sword and and is teaching
the class about biology with asword.
I always, I always get a kickout of that.
But yeah, so we're doublingdown and dr schumann and his
name is jose diaz they'reactually planning on doing
summer intensives, doing a softlaunch this summer for just like
really in-depth biblicallanguages, and we're hoping to
(08:10):
offer it a little bit beyondjust the Sattler crowd.
So, or the Sattler four year,the Sattler four years, anyway,
that's.
That's great to hear.
I know I've been inspired bythe whole cutting the English
umbilical cord idea, but that'svery far away for me.
Timothy Miller (08:25):
Yeah, and just to be clear, I'm not, uh, I'm
not close to cutting the cord.
I, I'm, uh, I, I, I.
I gained great benefit from it.
It's definitely not myexclusive.
I'm not skilled enough to readit exclusively and put it that
way.
Zack Johnson (08:39):
That's right.
And then I just love to hearyou.
You graduated in the first year, or the first 22.
What have you been up to sinceyou graduated?
Timothy Miller (08:49):
I know you kind of mentioned it in your bio, but
yeah, so I graduated in thespring of 22 and we moved back
to the community where I grew upSarasota, florida and I had
been involved in church ministrythe church I grew up in before
we left for Sattler, and so whenI came back I joined the
(09:17):
leadership team again, so I'm apastor in the church it's a
church of about 150 here on theedge of Sarasota, and so I got
involved in that and then alsomy parents own a furniture store
that I had grown up working inand stepped back into the store
as well.
So I'm in a managerial positionin the furniture store and so
(09:41):
between church and work, or thestore and family, I keep my
schedule fairly full.
Zack Johnson (09:52):
Yeah, I can imagine and can you just explain
a little bit about how you sortof think about them as sort of
bivocational Christians.
It's actually a pretty uniquefacet of people in the world who
take on a it could be afull-time ministry position, but
you also have a full-time job.
(10:14):
So how do you think about thatand are you surrounded?
Is that your background and isthat familiar to you?
Timothy Miller (10:23):
Yeah, it's the only thing I ever saw growing up
in my church background.
Um, I I'd say like I'vewrestled with it pretty deeply
on whether this is the wisestpath for churches.
Um, I think there's an argumentto be made for full-time
pastors, at least some level ofleadership that is full time in
(10:45):
the church.
Um, but there is also a benefitto the bi-locational ministry.
Um, there there's definitely aplace for it.
Uh, I, I tell otherbi-locational ministers are some
of the craziest people in theworld.
Uh, because, uh, we voluntarilychoose to uh do a work that
(11:07):
oftentimes reaps very littlefinancial benefit and and yet
lots of emotional uh strain.
Uh, so, yeah, it's, uh, it'sbut I say that kind of tongue in
cheek, cause it is it's anextremely rewarding work as well
, and, uh, and sometimes there'sa benefit to being able to.
Anybody who's been in churchfor very long knows there's
(11:30):
times where you need to just beable to go do something else and
get off the strain of some ofthe things that are a struggle
in church, and so having anothervocation that you're able to go
kind of pour some energy intocan sometimes help you even.
Um, keep, keep both in balance.
Zack Johnson (11:48):
Sort of like a sabbatical like or sabbatical
like concepts, yeah, yeah, I, uh, I can sympathize.
I sympathize with you on that,that.
The idea of yeah having a lotat stake and the payoff here
seems, uh, you really have toknow the bible to understand the
(12:10):
payoff yeah, no, it'sabsolutely.
Timothy Miller (12:14):
Uh, it's not a huge.
Church work often carrieslittle um benefit right now.
It often takes years to see thefruit of your labors and many
times it feels like the rewardis small.
But we know in the upside downkingdom that, even though it may
(12:36):
appear sometimes like thereward is small, that this is
really storing up reward thatmatters when we give ourselves
to for Christ's bride.
So, yeah, it's well worth itand yeah, well, let's I'll.
Zack Johnson (12:53):
This will lead into sort of a bigger
conversation here, and I'm Iknow you've put a lot of thought
into this.
So, with that being said,people sort of understanding
that you're a full-time ministerbut you also have a full-time
job.
So how do you think aboutintegrating I'm going to use the
(13:14):
word evangelism into yourvocation there, and I know that
you've probably studied somepeople in history that have done
this in unique ways.
People in history that havedone this have done this in
unique ways.
So I'd love to hear about yourthoughts on just that whole idea
of integrating evangelism intoyour vocation.
Timothy Miller (13:32):
Yeah, this is another example where I do think
bivocational ministry can be areally good path, in that I was
talking with another localpastor last year and he's a
full-time pastor and he saidsomething he's like there is a
blessing you bivocational guyshave that we don't, which is
you're out working among yourpeople more regularly, kind of
(13:56):
in everyday environments,whereas, like for a full-time
someone who's in full-timeministry, often they're working
with people mostly in thecontext of kind of formal church
environments, less so ineveryday life.
And I think there's something tothat where not only do I get to
(14:18):
work, there's people in thebusiness that I work with that
are part of my church, so I getto have kind of those informal
conversations throughout thenormal warp and woof of life
where hard things come up andhave to work.
Through them you can see howpeople are responding to life.
There's that.
(14:38):
And then there's also you'reworking with the public and it
gives you an opportunity towitness for Christ.
You're working with the publicand and it gives you an
opportunity to witness forChrist, whereas church ministry
you're often only working withchurch people or if you're, if
you're a full-time pastoral,it's a little harder to to find
avenues to be in moreevangelistic relationships.
So a bivocational ministrygives you kind of a natural path
(15:04):
to connect with people who arenot currently Jesus followers,
and that can be a real blessing.
So do you want me to go down ahistorical example of that?
Then that I found inspiring.
Yeah, let's jump into it.
I found inspiring.
Let's jump into it.
(15:25):
So there's a little known guyin the Anabaptist movement who I
believe it was pretty early onin the Anabaptist movement there
was some mid-1500s or sothere's a guy named Hans Nodler
who is a needle merchant and hebecomes passionate about Jesus
(15:46):
and his kingdom and and some ofthe beliefs that Anabaptists
were promoting, that you're uh,you have to voluntarily choose
to be a part of God's kingdom.
It's not something you're borninto and um, but he's not.
He's not someone who has formalministry education.
He's not someone who's um,dedicated to full-time ministry,
(16:08):
as it were, you could say.
But he's just a common needlemerchant and he, he the only
record we have of him is in acourt case where he's actually
had charges brought against himand they're questioning him
about his, what he's doing andwhy he's evangelizing and what
he's teaching.
And it becomes obvious thathe's taken it upon himself that
(16:31):
as he goes from town to townselling needles, that he tells
people about the gospel and hespeaks with them about the
Christian way.
And it's a really incredibleexample, I think, of someone who
felt that Great Commission zealand decided that he needed to
make it a part of his everydaylife and so he was like
(16:54):
everywhere I went, everywhere Igo, I'm just making sure I tell
people about Jesus and I foundthat really inspiring to remind
(17:14):
me you know my work that- I getto do in to the public is an
opportunity to always be readyto, to share the gospel.
Zack Johnson (17:17):
And and I'm just curious, I don't want to put you
on the spot in your vocation Doyou, do you get that
opportunity and do?
Timothy Miller (17:28):
you find yourself regularly exercising
that.
I think it comes and goes somebased on what I'm doing at the
time.
So in I've done differentthings in the company.
When I did sales, where I'mactually selling furniture to
people I had a lot ofopportunities during that time
because you're working withpeople outside people all day
long and you often spend you canspend a few hours easily
(17:53):
working with somebody trying tohelp them make decisions, and
often the course of thoseconversations, just other things
in life come up and I found alot of opportunities when I was
doing that to bring God into theconversation or Christianity
and have conversations aboutwhat people believed.
What I'm doing now, I'm more ona managerial, more on the
(18:18):
administrative side and I'mworking more internally than
externally, and so I'd saythere's less opportunities but
they still come up because, yeah, that there are.
There are chances that ariseand so I have to be really
intentional because they're notas frequent.
(18:38):
I think I have to be moreintentional about being ready
when they do come out up and andI'm trying to make sure I don't
miss them.
Zack Johnson (19:04):
Yeah, that's right , and I'm curious I'm going to
go into a topic that we've beendiscussing in our own church
community here in East Boston.
It's a really interesting bookabout like the pressure sort of,
these spiritual pressures thatget sort of implicitly get put
on people.
That might not necessarily beapplicable to everybody at all
(19:25):
times he sort of talks about Ithink he's on some level of the
of the autism scale and but he'spretty high functioning and so
some of the things thatChristians expect of him are
like the most challenging thingsin the whole world and so and
he gets into evangelism a littlebit on, like what's, what's the
(19:50):
church's role in, inencouraging evangelism but not
making it a while doing it in ahealthy way.
That's not sort of a burden,like if you don't do this, then
you're not up to par with thepeople who are doing evangelism.
Does my question make sense toyou?
How do you what's like thebalanced approach to encouraging
(20:13):
evangelism without lettingpeople fall into the pressure
trap, even?
Timothy Miller (20:25):
though you do want to create good pressure.
It's a funny, it's kind of aconundrum no-transcript sales.
(20:57):
It's something where I'minteracting with the public
every day, often withunbelievers almost every day,
which means I need to really beready to give an answer for the
hope that lies within me,because I'm going to have a lot
of opportunities, whereas I havehad a little bit of a hard time
shifting the mindset with whatI'm doing now.
(21:18):
I don't interact withunbelievers nearly as much as I
once did and at one point thatwas frustrating for me.
But I think I've seen that inthis season of life I'm I'm more
discipleship oriented ofbelievers than evangelistic of
unbelievers, because most of mywork is connected with helping
(21:41):
fellow employees work throughrelational issues, often people
who are Christians.
I'm trying to live out what itmeans to be a Christian in our
workplace and so maybe there'smore discipleship stuff that's
required of me than straight orclassical evangelism, and I
think being okay with that, notbeing guilty but then being
(22:03):
ready.
So I thought of when you askedthat question I remember just
last year.
I don't do sales anymore, butthere was a couple that I had
worked with a few years backActually, it was the summer of
2020.
I sold them a whole house fullof furniture.
I'd worked with them for hoursand had a lot of good
conversations.
I don't remember having likeeven super spiritual
(22:23):
conversations with them, maybe afew here and there, and at some
point I guess they had realizedI'm I'm a pastor and like, out
of the blue, I hadn't seen themin a while.
They they had stopped in andjust we talked.
I saw him at the store, wetalked, connected a little bit
and um, and had a goodconversation.
They asked about my family andthey had talked about having us
(22:45):
over for a meal sometime.
Just kind of it was easy tohave a conversation with them.
And and then a few months later,the the wife, calls me and says
I've lost my husband and like,she contacted me at the store
and says, like you know, can youpray for me?
And so I just ended up prayingwith her and and he had died
(23:07):
unexpectedly.
There's some, some mysteryaround what happened and it was
a really difficult situation.
Uh, long story short, she endsup asking me um, she, I didn't.
She asked me a few weeks laterwill you do like a celebration
of life for him?
And he was not a Christian shewas, and she said there's going
(23:31):
to be lots of his friends therewho are not Christians.
And I was like, well, I'mwilling to do it, but can I
share what I believe, can Ishare the gospel?
And she's like, oh, I'd lovefor you to be able to do that.
And so, even though I wasn'tgetting everyday opportunities
to share the gospel in my newrole because of this connection
(23:51):
I had previously with somebody,I then ended up having an
opportunity to share the gospelat a celebration of life to a
group of 50 or 60 people, manyof which I think were unchurched
.
I had a pretty big audiencethere for just at least a little
bit.
That was the fruit of earlierconversations in a different
(24:13):
season of life.
That was the fruit of earlierconversations in a different
season of life.
And so I try to keep thosethings in mind.
And then, obviously, I think ofmy wife.
Like her primary role right nowis homeschooling, which isn't
going to be something that leadsto a lot of evangelistic
opportunities, and so right nowit's probably not a primary
(24:35):
vocation of hers.
It doesn't mean she shouldn'tstill be aware and trying to be
ready if those opportunitiesarise, but it's probably not the
season for her to be headingdowntown to do street ministry
twice a week or something.
There are other things that sheshould be fully devoting
herself to that and not feelingguilt, but this isn't a big part
(24:57):
of her life right now.
Zack Johnson (24:59):
Yeah, that that makes sense.
Thanks for thanks for sharingthat story.
What did you?
What did you talk about?
You didn't know him super well,so did.
Was it just like a?
Did you just give the the the?
What did you talk about?
I was going to make a joke, butI won't.
Timothy Miller (25:18):
I well, no, I I talked about um, oh man, what
did I talk about?
I ended up talking about thestory because of Winn-Dixie.
I don't know if you've everheard the story because of
Winn-Dixie.
Is that a dog?
Is it a dog?
It's a kid's book, fantasticbook.
(25:39):
There was a movie made about itas well.
Yeah, it's a really good kid'sbook and the primary point of
the story is that we all havehurts that never heal.
I think is kind of the big pointof the story, and so I was
(26:01):
reading that book at the timewith my boys and I used that
story.
Many of it seemed like quite afew of the people who were there
were familiar with it, and Iused that to try to say we know,
this is true, everybody knowsthere's hurts in life that never
it seems like never heal, likewe all have hard things that
happen, and this was one ofthose extremely difficult things
(26:24):
that I think was going to bereally hard for people to fully
know how to move forward on.
But the books think the booksum response to that question is
like what do you do with thesehurts that never heal?
It's kind of like just be kindto people and make friends with
his like, build goodrelationships, which is there's
(26:46):
some truth to that idea.
But I I tried to use that tosegue to jesus recognized that
this was the world we live inand he offered a greater
solution than just being kind toeach other.
But there is actually aredemption to the, to the hurts
that we face, and a fullrestoration and healing.
(27:08):
That's possible through him andhis kingdom, and I think I'm
that's kind of how I got to thegospel.
But that was the bridge I builtto the gospel was like there is
a way to heal the hurts that weface in life, and I kind of
skated around like I tried tobless him as much as I could,
knowing that he had not beensomeone who had professed faith.
But there's others who havegone before me who have given
(27:32):
wise pastoral wisdom on what todo when you're overseeing.
This was called a celebrationof life, but of an unbeliever,
and I definitely benefitedgreatly from people who had been
through those kind ofcircumstances and helped me
think about how to use the rightlanguage.
Zack Johnson (27:51):
Got it, and this a just a side question I'll just
say real quick it was a.
Timothy Miller (27:56):
It was one of the most unique experiences I've
ever had as a pastor and it hadnothing to do with me being
like my church ministry.
It was totally an opportunitythat arose because of my
business, because of thevocation I have in business, and
so it was.
It was one of those momentswhere I was like I really was
(28:17):
grateful to God for thebivocational ministry that I had
and and the opportunities thatgave me to be a witness to his
kingdom.
Zack Johnson (28:24):
So Well, I think what I was going to mention is I
always forget where I hearthings, but there's this kind of
a funny story about a Christianwho they took some corporate
job and they really wanted theopportunity for evangelism, and
so they said I'm just going tobe a super diligent worker, full
(28:48):
of character, full of integrity, full of hope, displaying all
the attributes and really livethe faith, but not profess the
faiths verbally, and and so thatwas going to be their approach.
And one day somebody knocked ontheir door and said hey, can I
talk to you about something?
And the person was like this isthe moment I've been waiting
(29:10):
for, and they closed the doorand they said I've noticed
something different about you.
Are you a vegan?
And so I don't.
That story illustrates thatsomehow, professing with words
the truth is very important inthis whole idea of how to do, is
(29:37):
very important in this wholeidea of how to do evangelism in
vocation.
Timothy Miller (29:40):
And, like you can't, it's really hard to do
evangelism without theopportunity to speak, and the
gospel is directly tied toverbal pronouncement like yeah,
I, the idea that I know it'scommonly quoted that Francis of
Assisi said preach the gospelalways.
If necessary, use words.
(30:01):
Use words right.
Yeah, I don't.
There's some truth to the ideathat, like, our lifestyle should
proclaim the gospel, and that'strue.
But the gospel is, in nature, averbal pronouncement, um, and
so there's no we.
We have to combine both.
(30:21):
We have to live a lifestylethat's worthy of the gospel and
we have to have our mouths readyto, um, make a defense, be a
witness for the gospel, um,whenever we give the opportunity
.
Because what is our vocation asChristians?
And I was just struck, I wasreading Acts.
I just started reading Actsagain.
(30:42):
And what does Jesus say to thedisciples before he ascends to
the right hand of the Father?
He says you are to be witnessesto the resurrection, like that
was their vocation, waswitnesses of the resurrection
Interesting, and I do thinkevery Christian, that is our
(31:08):
primary vocation in this life isto be a witness to the
resurrection.
So there's ways to witness tothe resurrection with our
lifestyle, but in general,that's actually being ready to
tell people about theresurrection and the hope that
it gives us as christians so I,I love so, if that's, our
(31:29):
primary vocation is to bewitnesses of the resurrection.
Zack Johnson (31:32):
Can, can you, can you just like build that out a
little bit about what that means, what the implications are for
Christians, as that is avocation beyond some of the
things we've just talked about.
Yeah, I think we, yeah, I thinkthat's a familiar.
Timothy Miller (31:50):
I'll give you an example of my, of a failure of,
of my own no-transcript, andyou can get to go to heaven or
(32:18):
whatever.
And so we feel like that's whatwe need to do, and if we don't
do that, then we're not beingevangelistic.
But in reality, I think whatwe're called to do is actually
much more exciting, which is,wherever we go in life, there
are circumstances that ariseconstantly that show the death
(32:39):
that's in the world, yeah, andwe don't know what to do with
the death that we face day inand day out.
And so we should be ready atall times to say but there's
actually another hope, there's ahope of a resurrection, and
this is how we can have thathope of resurrection, life,
which is to give our lives tothe one who rose from the dead.
(33:00):
And just I was thinking aboutthat because just yesterday I
was, I did, I was out doing arepair I do some repair work for
the store and it was an olderman who had bought something
many years ago.
We went out to do a littlerepair on something he had and
in the middle of our work hecomes barreling into the room
(33:22):
and is like you wouldn't believe, did you hear there was a
shooting in Georgia, a schoolshooting, and I I didn't.
And then he said and theRussians are interfering with
our election and Iran isinterfering with our election.
And me and my coworker bothstood there just kind of like oh
, and?
(33:44):
And he went on to say like oh,the world is just such a mess
and we have like no idea how tofix it.
And we're, um, and in thatmoment the thing that popped
into my head was, yeah, we don't, but, but jesus has promised
that there's a resurrectionthat's coming for us and for the
(34:04):
world, that will reverse allthe wrongs in this life, that
will turn death to life and andthat is the answer to, to the
school shootings to, uh, powerhungry warlords.
Um, and I was a coward, Ididn't, I just didn't say what I
(34:25):
thought, um, and I'm notexactly sure why.
It caught me off guard in somesense.
I was like I don't know if thisis.
You know those you starttelling it.
I don't know if this is.
You know those you starttelling it.
I don't know if this is theright time to say that.
I'm going to sound trite, but Ithink God, almost certainly the
Holy Spirit, was prompting me tobe a witness to the
resurrection right here in thisplace, where this man is talking
(34:47):
about all like is wrestlingwith the death, the reality of
death in the world and theseemingly powerlessness we have
in the face of it.
And I had an opportunity thereto say, hey, but wait, listen to
what Jesus said and look whathe did.
And I didn't take it.
I failed.
And I think those kinds ofopportunities actually come up
(35:09):
fairly regularly for almostevery Christian, fairly
regularly for almost everyChristian, where discussion
around sin, death, like all thebrokenness of the world, comes
up, and I think the Christian'sresponse should always be like
but what does the resurrectionsay about this?
And like how does theresurrection change how we view
(35:31):
this?
And that's been somethingthat's just been like really
burning in my heart, and yet Istill sometimes don't fail to
verbalize it, which I think is agenuine failure, because I
wasn't.
I didn't have an opportunity todisplay the was I.
I mean I was being a goodperson by by following up and
like taking care of his problemand doing my work well and all
(35:54):
of that.
But I actually had anopportunity to be verbal about
the hope of the resurrection wehave in Jesus and I didn't take
it, and I don't think there wasanything particularly unique
about my work in that momentthat witnessed to the
resurrection.
Zack Johnson (36:08):
Right, right, and so I guess the a million dollar
question could be what are someways to overcome that cowardice
that I think?
I think I, like you, said itwell that we're prompted.
But many times the easy way outis not to be verbal about, not
(36:31):
to use words with the truthsthat we believe in.
Have you and going back to thatstory about the couple you
shared, sometimes you'reprompted and it's really easy to
to answer.
You know, like, if someone'slike, oh, are you a pastor?
Then that's a, that's asoftball right.
But if you, if you don't getthat prompt, have you thought of
(36:53):
any ways to overcome the,overcome the, the tendency
towards cowardice, and pressinto the, even if it's a two
sentence, a two sentence line,you could say, or something like
that, that's a hard question no, no, it's, it's honestly, I
think it's like a lot of thingsin life the more you do it, the
(37:14):
easier it is.
Timothy Miller (37:15):
Yeah, and we become the habits that we
cultivate, and so if our habitis to be a coward and to not
open our mouths, like thatalmost always just gets more
entrenched, and if the habit isto normally, when those
(37:36):
opportunities arise, open yourmouth and witness to the
resurrection, it actuallybecomes easier to do and starts
to feel more natural.
And probably the reason Ifailed in that moment is that I
haven't.
It's been a little while sinceI had a conversation with an
unbeliever where I really wentinto the hopes I have, and so I
(38:04):
know, yeah, just having thatmindset of wanting to do it
regularly and looking for theopportunity even so, maybe
something I have found that hashelped me at times is there's a
lot of conversations that comeup, even among christians, where
we can kind of think like theworld, where maybe a christian
(38:26):
comes up to me and says did youhear that there was a school
shooting, that russia's doingthis, that, um, you know, all
this chaos is happening, and wejust kind of follow them right
down the dead end trail of like,oh, it's all hopeless and bleak
and we all feel discouraged.
But instead of letting thathappen, saying, hey, let's think
(38:49):
about what's happening here inlight of what Jesus has promised
us, hey, let's think aboutwhat's happening here in light
of what Jesus has promised us,and how would that change how we
think about this particularheadline or thing that's
happening in the world right now?
And if we just verbalize it toeach other more regularly, like
this is our hope, I think itbecomes more natural then to
(39:10):
also verbalize it when we're incontext with unbelievers.
And I do think that's somethingI found helpful is that when
I'm thinking in that kind of way, just in conversations with
other Christians, it also seemsto flow over into Because I have
more conversations withChristians than I do
(39:30):
non-Christians Like it's just.
I think that's the natural way,like the body of Christ becomes
your primary family, which isthe right way, like the right
thing.
But then those conversationsinside the body of Christ about
what our hope is matter to andhow we respond to the sin and
the death and the brokennessthat is in the forefront of our
(39:56):
lives often and yeah, I actuallylike that about it feels easy
to sort of it's not gossip butcomplain with fellow Christians
rather than than to reconfirmthe hopes.
Zack Johnson (40:10):
I think we don't have to get, we don't have to
get into it, but I think thepolitical election coming up is
another massive, massive hope,opportunity, hope opportunity.
Timothy Miller (40:26):
This is a great season for us to practice that
discipline of the hope, of theresurrection in the face of
instability which our countrywill certainly be going through
the next few months that's right.
Zack Johnson (40:37):
I still remember watching the last presidential
inauguration with you.
That seems like a long time ago, but we need to go to Emmett's
again.
Yeah, maybe, hey, if you're inBoston, I'll take you to
Emmett's.
Timothy Miller (40:52):
All right.
So if I'm in Boston January2024.
25, yeah, 2025, yeah, thenyou'll take me to Emmett's.
All right, that's right 2025.
Zack Johnson (41:01):
Yeah, yeah, 2025.
Yeah, then you'll take me down.
I'm sorry, that's right, let me.
I'm going to do a couple ofjust like rapid fire questions
here just to pull some, someother things out of you.
I I know that you and your wifeare pretty I would call you
voracious readers and reallyinterested in in, like
literature for, for children andthings like that.
Are there any?
(41:22):
Are there any other books thatyou and your wife recommend to
other families or homeschoolersthat you've bumped into?
Uh?
Children's books yeah, just Ithink or any, anything that
produces character.
It's those things are are alwaysfun to fun to talk about yeah,
(41:44):
no, there's so many goods.
Timothy Miller (41:46):
There's so many bad children's books, but
there's so many good ones too.
Um, and this is a greatquestion that puts me on the
spot.
I'm trying to remember.
Okay, I'll start.
Yeah, this is a great one forkids.
My favorite all-time book isOliver Finds His Way.
That's what I have you heard ofthat one.
Zack Johnson (42:07):
I've heard of it.
Tell me about it.
Timothy Miller (42:09):
It's this little bear who gets lost in the woods
and becomes very frustrated,and he just cries and cries and
doesn't know what he's going todo, until he starts thinking and
it's like, okay, how toactually get myself out of this
situation?
And so he ends up roaring asloud as he can, and then he
hears his parents roar back andthen he finds his way home.
(42:31):
It's a beautifully illustratedbook, the story is phenomenal,
it captivates kids' imaginationand it's teaching a really
important principle that I goover with my boys on a regular
basis, which is there arenatural tendency, when we get
frustrated or like lost, or likefeel like we're up against
(42:52):
something we can't overcome it,just like I just want to get
discouraged, I just want to cry,I just want to like throw a fit
, but in reality that doesn'thelp anybody, it doesn't help
you, it doesn't get you out ofthe situation.
And so to be able to controlyour like calm down and think,
okay, how do I actually respondin a way that will help me
resolve this difficulty I'm upagainst, which is something I
(43:16):
need to be reminded of prettyregularly and something I'm
trying to remind my boys ofregularly, and so that book
reminds me of that principle,and so I love that book for
little guys.
Oliver finds his way.
Zack Johnson (43:33):
I'm going to go get that.
Any other ones on the top ofyour mind before the next rapid
fire.
Timothy Miller (43:38):
Yeah, yeah.
So I for older children, I'llnever stop promoting the virtues
of the wing feather saga.
It's one of my favorite.
It's for a little bit olderkids my seven year olds just at
the point of being able to maybewrap his mind around someone.
It's more like eight to twelveprobably, but it's more of a of
(44:04):
a fantasy novel series.
But it has so many reallyvaluable moral lessons
throughout it that I think arereally.
It brings up really goodconversations with families.
So we were doing a read aloudwith our boys in that one and
there's a lot of things thatcome up that have provoked
(44:24):
really important conversations.
Zack Johnson (44:28):
When do you guys read aloud in your?
Is it daily, once a week?
Timothy Miller (44:35):
So my wife does read aloud with them almost
every day as part of the schoolrhythm, almost every day as part
of the school rhythm, and thenusually we're doing a read aloud
of some kind before ourdevotional time evenings.
So we kind of are alwayslooking for new read aloud books
to to do as a family together.
Zack Johnson (44:57):
Great, and then I'm going to.
I this is another putting youon the spot, but not really so.
You did your capstone on.
Why is the on catechesis orcatechisms?
Yeah, has that made your wayinto your, your life at all, or
did it get left by the wayside?
Timothy Miller (45:17):
so, to be honest , I've spent not, I have not
spent a lot of time on it sincegraduation.
Unfortunately, there's there'swork to be done to get it ready
for publication.
Um, what I have done is started.
I did start to use it with myboys, uh, and I realized that I
(45:38):
was still uh, aiming a little.
What I have now was a littleover their heads, like I needed
to simplify more for their agerange.
So I've been working through itwith them as I have time and
taking notes and then trying togo back and simplify so that it,
(46:00):
it, um, will be more beneficialfor them.
So, yeah, I am continuing towork on it, but can you?
Zack Johnson (46:08):
can you define catechesis or catechism for the
layman?
Timothy Miller (46:14):
Yeah, it's.
It's the practice of repeatingthe important things to um.
Repeating the important thingsto younger people who need
instruction is basically theidea.
It's a practice that startedearly on the church.
It started more as an oralpractice where the very core
(46:34):
important principles of thechurch would be taught orally to
catechumens.
Core important principles ofthe church would be taught
orally to catechumens, who werepeople who were candidates for
baptism, who wanted to becomeChristians, and often it's
centered around things like theApostles' Creed.
(46:55):
It started out pretty basic butover time it can get more
extensive and so it's often usedas a way of either um teaching
the print, the core principlesof the Christian faith to, to,
to children, or to baptismalcandidates.
Um, it's been the primary waysit's been used throughout
Christian history, got it.
Zack Johnson (47:33):
And then I'm going to switch gears again here.
So when you, when I asked youabout why did people to share
that passion with, or is that anisolated passion?
And if isolated, is that okay,is a question I I ask this
(47:53):
selfishly because I'm alwayslooking for people with that
passion and, ironically, I havesome work to create that demand
and so there's not a ton ofpeople, of people whose instinct
are to be searching for thoseprograms that would develop that
skill set.
Timothy Miller (48:11):
Yeah, I honestly don't hear of a lot of people
who are particularly interested.
I think people are intrigued bythe idea.
Um, I think people areintrigued by the idea, but the
most common kind of thing that Ihear is people say like, oh,
like you don't really don't needto learn it because we have all
these tools that we can go backand look at the words anyways.
(48:32):
And they tell us what, what itmeans in Greek or Hebrew, and,
and so actually learning thelanguage isn't that important
anymore.
I've heard that objection.
I do think there's a hugedifference between actually
knowing how language works andthen just kind of jumping in and
trying to rip a word out andunderstand it just with the help
(48:55):
of a concordance.
It's not that it doesn't haveany value, but it's a very
different enterprise thanactually reading something in
its whole context.
So, yeah, I would say I don'thear of a lot who are interested
.
Usually, when someone becomesinterested, it's because they
(49:15):
have some kind of exposure tomore formal biblical studies,
where they study through a wholebook of the Bible in a more
intensive environment, like at aBible school I taught at, where
you would go through Romans orJohn or Matthew or Psalms.
Like almost always, when I seepeople actually do more
(49:36):
intensive study of a book andthey realize like how beautiful
and um, intricately crafted manyof the biblical books are, it
seems to fuel like this sense oflike I want to understand more,
and then that can lead to tohunger for biblical languages.
(49:56):
Um, but we're not really toooften we're we're kind of
trained to just dive into likeone verse at a time, here, there
and everywhere, and not reallythink about the bigger picture
that books are trying, thebigger message that a book of
the bible is trying tocommunicate.
And when you're doing that justkind of diving in here and
(50:18):
there and everywhere, maybe justall you need is the tools to be
able to parse words for you.
It makes sense to you.
But if you start to see how thewhole picture, like the whole
book, is actually important andthen the larger story in general
, I do think it starts to help.
You see that actuallyunderstanding the language just
has a real value.
Zack Johnson (50:39):
Yeah, I think it is valuable in uncovering those
bigger themes and stuff I, Ithink it's something that I was
gonna, I was gonna sort of ask aquestion about hey, in in those
daily devotionals, is that, isthat a meaning?
Has it been a meaningfulexperience to you to have that,
(50:59):
that opportunity to to look atthe original languages?
Because we we talk about thisidea of using as early on as you
can, under whatever tools youcan get to understand the bible,
just like take them, and it'skind of like the investment to
(51:20):
compounding interest into yourown spiritual growth, where if
you invest early on in theseskill sets, then over time you
know they build and build andbuild.
And I'm curious if it's, ifit's been meaningful to you, or
is it?
Is it geeky and intellectualand sort of?
And no, I'm serious, I'mserious about that and sort of.
(51:45):
And no, I'm serious, I'mserious about that because some
people was like oh get that awayfrom me like another.
Timothy Miller (51:48):
This is a great no, I love it.
So this is what I'll say.
I just want to up front say,for anyone who doesn't know the
biblical languages, like I am,what I'm about to say is not
saying you're deficient as aChristian in any way.
The Lord can absolutely givesomebody everything they need to
(52:09):
be a mature Christian throughjust study of English
translations of the Bible.
It is your heart orientationtoward the Word of God
fundamental, um key aboutwhether the Lord can speak to
you through scripture.
Um, not everybody has to learnthe original languages.
So just, I'm saying that upfront, um, but then, like, a
(52:34):
passion of mine is it does feellike when you start talking
about reading original languages, people often think like that's
for the academics, that's forthe scholars, the people who
actually don't really havespiritual passion, more of the
geeky, like starchy kind.
(52:55):
Reading scripture in theoriginal languages is often a
very devotional enterprise forme, right, that that fuels
worship, and and so I I heard NTright, say this one time, and I
think it's so true.
He said when he was a youngscholar, someone told him don't
(53:16):
use a different Bible for, like,your personal devotions and
then for your academic study.
And he said I immediatelythought to myself that's the
worst idea I've ever heard.
Right, and and I I always.
I couldn't more.
I don't always agree with NTWright, but I wholeheartedly
(53:39):
agree with him on that point,that that both our our more
academic enterprises withScripture can never be
disconnected from our devotionalenterprises with Scripture.
Because the minute we stopdigging into the Word of God to
understand the God of the Bible,the minute it turns into
something very different thanthe faith that's been handed
(54:02):
down to us by faithfulChristians through the
generations, because everyendeavor to understand scripture
is an endeavor to understandthe living God who speaks and
acts in our lives today.
And so I absolutely do findincredible devotional value in
my I think sometimes people feellike there's this, anything
(54:29):
spiritual happens through, justlike Emotions, emotional, like
there's some kind of deepfeeling and like God just beams
this knowledge into your headand then you're like yeah, I
have real knowledge, but then,like academic study of scripture
is is kind of just humanpowered study, um knowledge and
so.
But I want that real likespiritual.
(54:50):
My brother-in-lawbrother-in-law and I were having
this conversation recently andI and I just don't buy that
dichotomy like.
I think god is not opposed tointense study of his world and
his word.
And it is often in our workinghard at the discipline that had
(55:13):
been given to us in Christianity, like prayer, like scripture
reading, like fasting that inthat intense exertion to
understand and know more aboutGod he speaks to us in deep and
profound and meaningful ways.
And I have absolutely foundthat, as I dive deeper into
Greek and Hebrew, that Godspeaks to me in that discipline.
(55:37):
And that's not to say thatthere aren't people who let it
go to their heads and theybecome starchy, nerdy people who
think they're better thaneverybody who doesn't understand
.
And that's a real temptationand that is something that pride
will prevent you from actuallyunderstanding the God of the
Bible.
So that is a danger certainlyto be warned against and and
(55:59):
wary of yeah, thanks for thanksfor answering that.
Zack Johnson (56:03):
I, uh, I think it's just it's it's a
misconception.
I'm trying to convinceespecially young people,
especially young people, aboutincluding my own young self,
like if yeah, and I, I thinkthere's a little bit of a a
reason to make it compellingagain, because it it's
definitely doesn't have a coolvibe to it right now to to say
(56:26):
that you're gonna go and devoteyourself to, to the biblical
languages.
A lot of people are like, oh,you're gonna be a, you're gonna
be a scholar, but rather than tosay, no, I'm just, I just
really want to understand thescriptures.
So I'm just thinking about waysto talk about that, especially
towards that younger crowd rightnow.
One more question, and thenwe'll do.
(56:48):
I'll pitch it back to you asanything that you wanted to say.
So you are probably aware thatthe 500th anniversary of the
first baptism in the radicalreformation is coming up and I'm
just curious is that meaningfulto your community in any way?
(57:09):
Are you guys planning a way toremember that or not necessarily
?
Timothy Miller (57:16):
That's a great question.
There's not been anyconversation about it.
I've been thinking about it thelast month or two.
Actually, it's funny you bringit up.
It's like man, it's comingbecause I know you and I used to
talk about it I talk about?
Yeah, I have not taken anymeaningful steps to uh preparing
myself to commemorate it or mycommunity.
(57:37):
So what about you?
Zack Johnson (57:39):
we.
So hon hans Lehman is going todo like an evening in January
here and bring in some speakersto commemorate the baptism.
And then I still have been.
The 2027 date with Sattler'smartyrdom is still the one that
I really think should be thewhatever the fireworks.
(58:00):
But I've been morebrainstorming and haven't come
up with a solid idea.
But that idea of pack invitingpeople to commemorate some
well-produced form of content, Iknow the idea of a documentary,
a better documentary or even a.
Some people want us to try togo to a movie like a Sattler
(58:22):
movie somehow, but that's, Idon't know, nothing super
significant beyond Hans.
And then we're actuallycontemplating doing an alumni
and family history trip at somepoint over the summer into where
the Radical Girl Reformationhappened In 2027.
Timothy Miller (58:42):
Yeah, or or leading in the next, just in the
next two years, whenever youwould you go?
Zack Johnson (58:47):
I?
Timothy Miller (58:48):
would love to go .
I'm not promising anything, butthat you definitely would get
serious consideration for me.
Zack Johnson (58:54):
All right, got it well, I always end with just
saying, hey, is there?
Is there anything else you'dlike to say to our mystery
audience here?
Timothy Miller (59:06):
Nothing's coming to mind offhand.
Zack Johnson (59:09):
Hey well, timothy, thanks so much for taking the
time to chat with me and send myregards to your boys and your
wife.
Keep raising those humble, meekwarriors for, for the kingdom
and um, yeah, thanks, manappreciate you having me zach,
(59:31):
great to catch up again allright, take it easy.
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