February 22, 2024 • 40 mins
Dr. Nelson Chepkwony began studying microbiology after bacteria in crops caused an outbreak of disease in his native Kenya. He has been admiring the beauty and complexity of microorganisms ever since. In this episode, he talks with Zack Johnson about his academic journey, helping African students study in North America, and growing faith in secular academic environments. He also shares some of the benefits bacteria bring us, including preventing cancer, teaching us new engineering techniques, and helping us make insulin and cheese.
Nelson Chepkwony holds a Ph.D. in Microbiology from Indiana University and a Bachelor of Science in Biological Sciences from Cornell University. His research focuses on bacterial adhesives and biofilm formation, aiming to develop synthetic bioadhesives for various applications. With a background in microbiology supervision and quality control, Nelson has also contributed to industry standards in food and pharmaceutical testing. Committed to education and mentorship, he has taught microbiology courses, tutored undergraduates, and spearheaded mentorship programs for African students. Outside academia, Nelson is actively involved in Christian fellowship and enjoys soccer, travel, and herding cattle in his native Kenya.
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Episode Transcript
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Zack Johnson (00:04):
It is February 8th , 2024, and I'm here with Dr
Nelson Chepquani.
Thank you so much for beinghere with me today.
Nelson Chepkwony (00:11):
I am so excited.
Zack Johnson (00:12):
Yeah, me, I am as well, and moving forward is okay
if I call you Nelson throughoutthis, we can just have a
conversation.
So I usually love to just readthrough people's bios.
I was looking at your bio and Imight need some help
pronouncing a couple things,because you're in the realm of
microbiology, those are yourpassions and I am not, so I
(00:33):
always need corrected.
Are you ready to go?
Yep, all right.
Dr Nelson Chepquani receivedhis bachelor's of science in
biological sciences from CornellUniversity and his PhD in
microbiology from IndianaUniversity.
Nelson has worked as apost-doctoral fellow and
research scientist at okay,you're going to have to say this
(00:54):
from Canada and French.
Nelson Chepkwony (00:56):
University of Montreal.
Zack Johnson (00:58):
In Quebec, canada.
That didn't sound French to me,but there's some accents on it.
He has researched extensivelyhow bacteria attach the surfaces
and form biofilms, with aspecific focus on the synthesis
and properties of bacterialadhesives, or holdfast, and
their adaptation to differentionic environments marine versus
(01:20):
freshwater.
His research aims in part todevelop synthetic bioadhesives
in order to eliminate biofoulingand corrosion and improve
adhesive uses on wet surfaces.
Wow, yeah, anything you have tosay about that, or explain that
part of your bio to somebodywho doesn't know what I just
(01:41):
read.
Nelson Chepkwony (01:42):
Yeah, that is mouthful, but in just very
layman terms is bacteria want tostick to service, so they
produce a very specific glue.
And my interest is actually howcan we mimic that glue and be
able to use it in medicine inbinding things the way we
(02:02):
usually use other glues?
Usually most glue don't work inwet surfaces, but the bacteria
have engineered a way of doingit and it's amazing that we can
leverage that and people tosynthesize the glue that can
work in different environments.
Zack Johnson (02:17):
Wow, I have a hunch that when you began your
college studies that wasn't oneof your passions.
So can you tell me a little bitabout the journey to how you
specialized throughout yourstudies and just sort of the
path that your research took youon and how you chose to study
(02:39):
that particular topic?
Nelson Chepkwony (02:41):
Yeah, so I've been passionate about research
since high school.
But when I joined CornellUniversity for my biology
program, my advisor, dr RebeccaNelson, was doing studying
Aflatoxin.
Toxins are like toxins that areproduced by some fungus that
(03:04):
poison food.
The Aflatoxin had an impact inKenya sometime in 2003.
It killed about 40 people.
So when I saw our lab wasstudying how this toxin can be
prevented, I was excited aboutresearch and that is how that
was the gateway to research.
So I worked with her studyinghow Aflatoxin is produced.
It's produced by thisaspergillus flavors just fungus
(03:30):
and then eventually that was formy own anesthesies.
But eventually, when I was nowafter graduation, when I wanted
to kind of focus, I look at thelabs and I was also looking for
something that had application.
So when I look at bacteria howpeople use bacteria to produce
different components I saw thatthose group in Indiana was
(03:51):
studying how bacteria stick tosurfaces and how we can not
really mimic that bacteria toproduce a synthetic glue.
That is important.
That's how I end up now movingfrom studying the Aflatoxin to
more friendly, because the waterbacteria that I produce are
friendly.
You don't have to worry aboutthe toxins.
So that's how I was drawn nowinto the field of studying
(04:14):
microbes and the interest waslike how can we leverage
bacteria to be our own allies?
Most people think bacteria issome pathogenic that causes
disease, but when I readactually the description in this
Indiana website, we're sayingthat actually we can make this
as allies to help us develop newthings like nuclear, new
(04:35):
components.
So that's how I end up movingfrom studying the Aflatoxins to
now to bacteria.
Zack Johnson (04:43):
And what like as a young person.
How many years did it take youto sort of develop that?
To me it sounds like a veryspecific research topic, and my
guess is that you didn't walk inas a freshman, thinking I'm
going to study Aflatoxins.
Nelson Chepkwony (05:04):
So yeah, so yeah, badly is because also my
advisor.
So the only way I could end upnarrowing down was my advisor
and the knowledge that I alreadygot from the environment.
So as a freshman, I went to myadvisor and I told, okay, I
don't have any other interestthat I wanted to study.
I wanted to study C elegans,which are a different organism
that I use in research formedicine.
(05:26):
When I took to my advisor, myadvisor say well, you can join
our lab.
We studied this, and given thatI had already been have some
knowledge about Aflatoxinshaving effect in Kenya, then
that kind of connected me to beable to choose.
So always having good advices,I guess for me it's been also
(05:46):
one fact that helped me tochoose a given topic.
So, yeah, so, moving from.
So that was more like myadvisor helping me to navigate
through research and then also,after working for four years and
then also attending differentconferences, I started opening
up my mind and trying to seewhat is really interesting me
out there, and when I read atdifferent universities, I
(06:09):
reached out to Indiana.
Well, if so, by then I reachedout to the lab itself.
Then I wrote an email like I'minterested in joining your lab
because you're studying thisbacteria that produces this
wonderful glue and I wanted tostudy.
So yes, and then I went throughthe application process, so
that's yeah.
Zack Johnson (06:26):
All right, let's make sense.
Let's keep reading through yourbio here and see if anything
else comes up.
Previously, nelson also workedas a microbiology supervisor at
Pathogenia Inc in Montreal,where he developed and validated
analytical methods for testingpresence of microbes in food and
active pharmaceuticalingredients for compliance with
(06:47):
FDA regulations and licensingfrom Health Canada.
Prior to pursuing his graduatestudies, he worked as a lead
quality control chemist at PCISynthesis in Newburyport,
massachusetts, so tell me aboutthat section of your background
too.
Nelson Chepkwony (07:07):
Yeah, so when I finished my undergraduate at
Cornell, I wanted to take twoyears off before going to
graduate school.
So during those two years off Idecided to apply to work in a
pharmaceutical company here inNew Barric Port as a chemist.
So there is your analyze howthe drugs meet the FDA standards
(07:28):
.
So I was pretty much as aquality control analyst there.
So I worked there for two yearsbefore going back to graduate
school, and the other working ina pathogenia was also during
the time.
I was sponsored in Universityof Montreal.
Having mastered how thepharmaceutical industry I guess
(07:49):
the quality control in thepharmaceutical industry I took
that knowledge to help thisstartup company in Montreal to
help them develop the method totest for the presence of
bacteria, because when you areluckily producing or testing
drugs, you need to have thosemethods and protocols to develop
.
So I was helping them todevelop that protocol at the
same time.
Yeah.
Zack Johnson (08:09):
Right, I know somebody who works at a food lab
and I got a tour of it here inEast Boston I love.
One of my favorite parts wasthere was a room full of
unreleased products that Iwasn't allowed to look at.
So there are marketingcompanies that, or just
companies that sent their foodto the labs to be tested to be
(08:31):
kind of approved for market.
Yeah, so that maybe this isjust not necessarily.
This is sort of a naivequestion.
But what is the threshold forwhat kinds of foods need
approval from that kind of labversus which foods don't need
approval?
And maybe I know you know theCanada system, canadian and the
(08:53):
US system.
So how do you know?
Like what is it every foodthat's sold at a supermarket?
In a package?
Or how does the FDA regulatethat?
Nelson Chepkwony (09:02):
Yeah, so the regulation for the food is if
you're going to cook the same,if the food are going to be
cooked in terms of, then youdon't have to meet the
regressionist law, because thenyou still be able to kill the
pathogens it's present there.
But any packaged food, anythingthat is sealed, like sugar, or
anything that is sealed thatwhenever you want to eat it you
(09:25):
have to open, that is now youneed to meet the standard.
But for, like potatoes thatyou're going to buy, or salad
that are already pre-packaged,we don't do testing on those
ones.
So the only test is like, thosethings that are already fully
packaged, yeah, so that's andthat doesn't.
Zack Johnson (09:42):
I'm just very curious Does that include bakery
products like bread that's nottechnically sealed?
Nelson Chepkwony (09:49):
That is not technically sealed, because it's
still kind of exposed to theservice, anything that is like
yogurt, for example yogurt, youwill need to pass, milk, you
need to pass standard.
Yeah, you need to measure theamount of pathogens that is in
there and most of the drinksthat are already fully sealed.
But anything that is openusually doesn't need to start.
Zack Johnson (10:09):
Yeah, I learned something every day.
Did you know that Krim?
No, Krim didn't know.
All right, Nelson has a passionfor teaching and mentoring
students at Indiana University.
He taught at a microbiology labcourses, tutored undergraduates
with their biology homework andformed a mentorship program
with other graduate students inthe Department of Microbiology
(10:31):
that offers top performingAfrican students the chance to
have research experience inIndiana University labs.
In addition, he served for twoyears as a student president of
KENSEP.
Nelson Chepkwony (10:42):
Yeah, exactly .
Zack Johnson (10:43):
An NGO that supports international students,
mostly from Eastern Africa.
He supported KENSEP students byproviding a platform where they
could raise issues affectingtheir academics and careers.
Tell me about your relationshipwith students and why you're
passionate about students in theclassroom and mentoring.
Nelson Chepkwony (11:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, you've seen that I
was an international student atsome point and that environment.
When I was a student I had tonavigate a lot of different
hurdles, like immigration,application for new school, like
culture, otherwise, I had toadapt to so many different
aspects in terms of academia.
(11:21):
So it kind of nature brought up, I guess, the urge for me to
mentor other students.
So in terms of mentoring, I dofast.
When I was president for theKENSEP KENSEP is an organization
that brings students from Kenyato undergraduate school here.
So when I was the president Iwas a student president I helped
(11:43):
the student to raise questionslike OK, what are the different
challenges that you have and howdo we solve them?
So in terms of, like I would do, navigating migrations or just
even choosing courses orchoosing universities or what to
do during summer.
So that is what the platformthat I raised.
So we had more like a websitewhere you can put in your
questions and answer.
So whenever we have newstudents, we just refer them to
(12:04):
that space.
And then the other aspect wasOK.
After I completed my graduatedegree, I realized that in those
classes for the graduate schoolI was the only almost African
student in those classes.
So me and Gabriel and otherguys at Indiana University
(12:25):
decided to OK, how can we helpimprove the number of African
students in this researchinstitution?
So we formed the AFRESnet.
So AFRESnet now focus ongraduate students.
We help them to apply forschools.
We talk them about researchfacility, because sometimes they
are really smart students butthey don't have the resources.
(12:45):
They don't know how to apply.
They don't know even if I writea recommendation application
letter, what do I include?
So what we do here is we mentorthe students to know how to
write the recommendation letter,to do the required exams, and
also we also guide them throughthat process.
For example, this this IMAAMalready guiding four students
(13:06):
who are really top students fromGhana and they're applying to
different schools.
So I guide them through theprocess.
I don't do the application, butI tell them what to do and give
them examples on what to do andwhat not to do.
So, yeah, Great yeah.
Zack Johnson (13:20):
And then I've been really encouraged People don't
know, but we have, is it?
Four students from EasternAfrica here and I've been really
encouraged to see sort of acluster of the community here at
Sallar.
Have you managed to talk tothem about sort of their
experience being internationalstudents and things like that?
Nelson Chepkwony (13:42):
Yeah, so yeah , yeah, briefly, we've, we've.
I've already met with them andI've talked to them how to
navigate.
First of all, is theimmigration and how to navigate
to balance between school andall the other requirements.
So I've already talked to themhow to plan for summer and if
they need to work outside, theyalways have my, my, my.
My door is always open for themto come in.
(14:04):
So but I've already met withthem and I already helped them
to navigate the same process.
Zack Johnson (14:09):
Right, that's great.
And then finally, nelson.
This is the last paragraph ofyour bio.
Nelson grew up in anevangelical church in Kenya and
served as a Christian Unionchairperson in high school.
After he moved to the UnitedStates, he served as a student
Christian fellowship leader andBible study teacher at Cornell
University and student presidentfor the Adventist Christian
(14:30):
Fellowship at Indiana University.
Nelson likes to run, playsoccer, travel and cook.
When he visits his native homein Kenya, he enjoys farming,
cattle herding and soaking inthe sun.
I love it.
Nelson Chepkwony (14:42):
Yeah.
Zack Johnson (14:43):
Yeah, how often do you get to go back to Kenya?
Nelson Chepkwony (14:45):
I try to go home once a year.
Okay, but it's been difficultdue to pandemic and and yeah,
yeah, so, but once a year it'sreally good, okay, yeah.
Zack Johnson (14:55):
Yeah, and then was your.
Did you grow up in in the faith?
Was your family?
Your parents are Christians aswell.
Nelson Chepkwony (15:03):
Yeah, so my mom was a Sunday school teacher.
So I grew up in a in aChristian family where every
Sunday a mom will take us to thechurch and she will teach us
the Bible.
I was just from the, from the.
When I was a kid I startedreading the Bible and my dad was
(15:26):
not a Christian in the early,early childhood but he became a
Christian when I was a teenagerand all of us now, the entire
family.
We used to have an evangelicalchurch we had.
We were at the end and also wewere able to read Bibles and we
used to perform skits in church,sing, and then when I moved
here, it was a little bit therewas a.
(15:49):
I was a little bit afraidmoving to America, given America
tend to be very secular societyand what I knew about America
was just in the movies andreally like the.
Zack Johnson (16:00):
Texas Hollywood.
Nelson Chepkwony (16:03):
Yeah, so, yeah.
So I was a little bit afraid so, but I moved in with my Bible
and the first week at Cornell ohno, the first semester when I
was at Cornell, cornell is asecular college I didn't know
which church to go, whichstudent or connection to stay.
So I read my Bible for the.
For one one semester I justevery Sunday I just read my
(16:25):
Bible and pray and then callingback home and fellow shipping.
But eventually I met theAdventist Christian group here
at Cornell and that they kind ofbreached now that spiritual
fellowship that I really needed,because even though I was
reading the Bible I was just Iwasn't feeling good, I wasn't
feel my faith was not strongenough.
(16:45):
So when I met this group nowfor we used to fellowship every
Friday evening and that reallykind of bring like, bring the
faith and strengthen me in termsof going in Christ here- Great.
Zack Johnson (17:00):
And then just this is a we'll move topics here.
When I hear you talk about yourcareer, it seems very natural
to me that the things youstudied were very applicable to
the career you were pursuing.
You studied microbiology andthen you end up, you know,
(17:21):
working in a lab.
But Sattler is a.
We're technically a liberalarts college that have we have
Bachelors of Sciences too, andso I'd love to hear you talk
about how you can make educationapplicable beyond, just beyond
the other things you study, andI know many students right now
(17:43):
in the country are reallyconsidering is college worth it?
Is university worth it?
Should I go under the trades andI, obviously, we work at a
college, so we're, we should beable to make a case for of
course.
Of course it's applicable.
You can make the classroomapplicable to a broad scope of
things.
So do you have any thoughtsabout how to how to make
(18:03):
education applicable, probablybeyond the scope of a specific
thing, or even using it?
No, you can use education tocraft a specific trade like or
skill like, like you've done inthe sciences.
Nelson Chepkwony (18:18):
Yeah.
So I would say yes, my passionis in class.
When I, my passion is a teacher, is to work in the make
education applicable.
So when I'm preparing for classlessons, most of my lessons are
also geared towards like, howcan you, just by understanding
what bacteria do, what is, doesthat impact on your just
day-to-day life?
(18:38):
So, in reality, makingeducational curriculum, being
able to, to have applicablethings, is that's how I I focus
on my teaching.
So when I'm teachingmicrobiology, I don't focus on
you getting.
I'm knowing the small detailsonly.
But also, if you know, okay,how does bacteria grow, what
(18:59):
does that have to affect?
So one way is, like you shouldknow that if you both put your
food on the fridge for a longtime, then remove it and then
and leave it on the table,things can grow because bacteria
, they can stay dormant in thefridge.
But how do we know that?
So we study all bacteria liveand survive, and that now helps
you out every day.
(19:19):
I don't want to leave foodoutside.
I need to be able to take careof food.
So how, making just educationand connecting to to real life,
that is how, like I'm passionatewhen I'm teaching how, how we
can intertwine that Now, ifyou're not in biology major or
if you are in other chemistry,other other areas, usually
(19:40):
knowledge of chemistry sometimesknowing one thing how to
calculate the volume ofsomething might not be important
when you're in class, but whenyou later in life, or when you
are like a medical doctor, orwhen you need to feel or doing
other things, it might help youto have just that critical
thinking.
Zack Johnson (19:57):
Got it, yeah.
And then there's a running.
It's not a running joke here atthe campus, but we make it's
kind of a joke.
We make all of our students getto take a core microbiology
class or human biology asfreshmen.
And I think it was a couple ofyears ago.
Everyone made shirts with aspecific protein drawn on and it
(20:21):
said something like praise Godfor our protein, something to
that sorts.
And I've heard it said bySaller's founder that studying
DNA and even the microbiology isone of the most worshipful
experiences that he hasencountered, because of just the
intense intricacy of humankindand even what's going on inside
(20:49):
our bodies.
Do you have any thoughts onlinking science?
And I'll just say, the worshipof God got worship of God
together.
Nelson Chepkwony (20:57):
Yeah, yeah.
Sometimes when I'm explainingthose details, like how DNA is
just a cookbook that makeseverything like the entire human
, sometimes it's just like howcan this happen?
I'm like, okay, it's just likehow intricate life or how
wonderful and fearful God madeus.
So usually I try to tellstudents how this is amazing,
(21:22):
because things just don't fallinto place just by chance.
There's had to be a intelligentor some sort of intelligent
design in it.
So whenever we study even asimple protein or simple DNA
structure, you always see howGod revealed himself in this
creation.
So that is how life iswonderful is because God had a
(21:47):
very, very specific way ofcreation.
It's just wonderful that itjust cannot happen by just
random chance.
So when students understand howDNA makes proteins and
eventually that proteins makethe human being, then they're
able to see God in a small like,in a microscopic view.
Zack Johnson (22:06):
Right.
And then, just mapping a littlebit further on to this, you can
use this question both as aspiritual lens or a scientific
lens.
How can we make bacteria ourally?
I've heard you say that alittle bit about hey, we don't
have to fear an Alaska fallout,we don't have to fear bacteria,
(22:28):
and maybe try to maybe go at itfrom like a explain to me who
doesn't really have a workingknowledge of it.
But how do we make it our allyand what can the normal average
person do to support yourpassion there?
Nelson Chepkwony (22:45):
Yeah, so, yeah.
So my passion is inmicrobiology is just studying
how bacteria live and survive.
So bacteria.
When we talk about bacteria,there are two types of bacteria.
There are bacteria that don'tcause disease and there are
bacteria that cause disease.
So actually what causes diseaseis almost 1% of the bacteria
population On your body.
(23:06):
You have millions and billionsof bacteria.
Most of them are reallyimportant for you, like
microbiome how he helped yourcat to digest and get new
nutrients.
So they are actually arehelping us and we are.
We help them by eating food.
We provide food for them.
They provide essentialnutrients that we need in our
bodies.
Most of them are actually don'tcause disease.
Like the skin microbiota don'tcause any disease.
(23:29):
They are still there.
They just live there and theyprovide actually they prevent
the bad bacteria from growing onyour skin.
So if you, if you actually washall the bacteria in your skin,
then the bad bacteria might comein and cause disease.
So usually they actually helpus.
So when I say we can make themas allies is if you have a good
bacteria that actually on yourbody, that can also prevent you
(23:50):
getting disease.
We've actually known that mostof the cancers can be our
actually lives our microbiome inour stomach.
So actually, you see that ifyou keep our microbiome in a
good state, we prevent most ofthe cancers.
Okay, so in my research that wediscussed earlier, bacteria can
be useful in terms of technology.
(24:11):
For example, we know bacteria.
God made this bacteria and theyable to engineer this amazing
glue.
We don't know how this glue isproduced, but luckily we can
copy, and we've been doing thisin other things, like how planes
fly, we just copy from thenature.
How you know the ships, we justcopy from the nature.
So the same way, we can copywhat bacteria do.
(24:32):
So in this case, bacteriaproduce this glue for them to
stick to the surfaces and not bewashed by the river.
We cannot really use thatknowledge to for them to give us
the structure of the glue, andthen we can, we can make it.
Another thing is most of thedrugs, like insulin, for example
, bacteria actually, instead ofbacteria.
(24:52):
We can give them the DNA thatmakes the insulin we give the
bacteria.
The bacteria produces theinsulin, so which is the protein
?
So again, we're already usingbacteria as our allies.
So even you know making cheese,for example, or other things,
those are bacteria fermentingsugars and giving us good cheese
.
So they're already our allies.
(25:14):
And when I say we can helppeople to understand, or if your
passion is in microbiology too,you can always look for areas
where you can copy what bacteriado and help improve health or
solve the world problems.
The world problems, for example, the plastic.
There are a lot of plastic andwe can use our bacteria that
digest the plastic.
So it's actually upon like newresearchers who are looking for.
(25:38):
Bacteria eat plastic and thenwe can now just be just growing
bacteria on this plastic andthen just destroy the plastic.
So we can make them allies tosolve our problems that we have
by just adding.
But we have to choose a leg forthose bacteria.
So we have to do a reason, wehave to culture them and we have
to like, engineer them to bebetter at what they do.
Zack Johnson (26:00):
Okay, this is more of a a non-scientist asking a
scientist question.
Is there anything that you doon a regular basis because of
your study of microbiology thatyou recommend other people doing
?
Any habits, diet implications,product consumptions, anything
(26:24):
that you recommend to yourfamily to do to leverage your
knowledge of microbiology?
The examples that come to mymind are like consuming
probiotics and things like that.
I'm just curious if there'sanything that you change about
your daily life because of yourstudy.
Nelson Chepkwony (26:42):
Yes, usually what I do is I don't like to
shock my internal microbiome, someaning that you don't want to
change your diet suddenly.
So if you travel to a new place, don't change your diet
completely, because also thatwhen you get to a diet it's kind
of interferes with themicrobiome and then excessive
use of antibiotics.
So don't use, because wheneveryou take antibiotics it always
(27:05):
kills everything, just kill anybacteria.
So minimize unless the doctororders.
If you are going to lose that.
Zack Johnson (27:13):
So don't if you have any infection, don't
Consult your physician.
I'm just kidding.
Nelson Chepkwony (27:17):
But usually yes.
So how to yes?
So just picture and just, Iguess, taking foreign
precautions.
So for example, during coffeetimes I just fall in the
precaution what the healthministry or whatever, as I was
just advised, usually I followthem because I know if you do
(27:39):
fall those guidelines you can beable to prevent spread of
diseases here Got it.
Zack Johnson (27:43):
And then I'd love to just talk about.
This is, I think, a topic thatI'm semi-passionate about,
because I don't know all theanswers completely but the
relationship betweenChristianity and science.
We were chatting a little bitbefore we started here.
And how do you go aboutthinking about how to have an
(28:04):
intense belief in Christianitywhile trusting in the scientific
method, in the evidentiary part, and I'm kind of hoping to hear
you talk about?
Do we have to choose one or theother?
Can Christianity mix well withscience?
And just how to go aboutthinking about how to avoid some
(28:28):
of the narratives that hey,there's this agenda built behind
the scientific community, maybea political agenda or something
like that.
I'd love to hear you talk aboutit.
Nelson Chepkwony (28:37):
Yeah, that is a big question.
That's a long big question.
But what I can, I guess, givemy own view on this subject is I
don't see, I see science andChristian faith as almost
complementary.
It is sometimes people try tosee like weigh them in different
(28:58):
scales, but I think you can beable to match them together and
in retrospect I always see that,ok, christian right.
Science is just like trying todisapprove Christianity, but
that is more like a notion thatmany people tend to believe in.
(29:19):
How do I reconcile both?
So whenever I do any scientificresearch, I should be able to
collect facts and collecttangible things.
But in faith it is more thanthat.
We know that when you think ofintelligent creation, when we
are intelligent in science, whenwe look at how things, how life
(29:40):
is, how marvelous things aremade in my mind, I've never
found any proof in science thatactually this thing can just
fall into place.
So usually what I take is thatscience is more like just
generating evidence of howcomplex the creation is, and
then, in terms of Christianfaith, we already know the
(30:01):
answer.
We have the faith.
So how do we reconcile justbelieving on something and just
seeing the evidence?
Usually I don't see anycontradiction in that too.
So the only way it can help istrying to learn science as much
(30:22):
as possible, like when peoplesay, ok, dna is something that
is used to generate life, weneed to study that.
And it doesn't mean that we aredisapproving what God made the
DNA for sure.
Not for sure, but that's whatwe believe, that God made the
DNA.
And science says, ok, what isthe DNA to study?
So more like both of them arejust in parallel, like science
(30:46):
is contributing to the knowledgeof what we see and what we feel
.
But faith is more, or justbelieving is more faith.
You have to believe that Godcreated this, because things are
very complex.
You cannot just see things fallin place.
So I have met many, manyChristians who struggle and say,
(31:11):
ok, science is trying todisapprove that God created.
But when you look at whatscience is doing in my field, in
microbiology, we are not tryingto, we are not disapproving the
faith, we're just showing thecomplexity and how things work.
So it's more like if someonecame in and found a house and
then decided, ok, how this housewas built.
(31:33):
You have to look at the bricksand look at the mortar and
cement.
But of course there was acreator.
It doesn't mean that thisbuilding just grew up in its own
.
So that's how I see how thescience is more like studying
how things work.
But faith is, or faith in God,just believing that God created
us.
Those are two differentparallel, I guess, feelings.
Zack Johnson (31:58):
And then another.
We'll switch topics a little.
Is there anything that you loveto recommend that people read
or study?
Is there a book that'sinfluenced you, some sort of
regular news program that youlike to recommend it to people
around you?
Nelson Chepkwony (32:20):
So for graduate students, if you're
already a science studentreading both intelligent design
journals, you can just Googleintelligent design journals.
If you were to be able to giveyou a different how you can
actually see God in creation andat the same time actually
(32:42):
you're not just blanketing andjust having a big plank and say,
oh, this was created, but justhaving to see the details, like,
for example, if you study thestructure of DNA and how those
DNA are regulated in thesejournals the Christian journals
that are publishes are suchfighting.
Zack Johnson (33:00):
Just Google intelligent design, like the
Discovery Institute journals orsomething like that.
And then in related to thatsorry I was going to ask this
before it triggered my thought.
I haven't researched thisextensively, but my general
instinct tells me that over timethe number of scientists who
(33:23):
sort of proclaim faith in God upto about 50 years ago used to
be an overwhelming majority, andthen suddenly we've seen a sort
of a decline of the number ofsort of secular people in
science versus faith-basedpeople in science.
I don't know if that's a littlebit anecdotal, but I've seen a
(33:47):
couple of studies, at least atsome of the Ivy Leagues, about
the number of professors.
But then when you look back toa lot of the giants of science
on who a lot of what we believein is, bill, we see that they
were people of faith.
Do you have any hypothesis asto what's happening behind the
(34:07):
scenes here and why is sciencesecularizing?
And that's a big statement.
I'm not saying that as astatement of fact, but that's
what I generally kind of suspectis happening and that didn't
used to be the case.
So what's happening here?
Nelson Chepkwony (34:27):
I think what I usually say is that there's an
increase of knowledge.
These are like in the last daysthere will be an increase of
knowledge.
So just having many Like thisinstitution.
Initially, most of the collegeswere built under Christian
faith.
Zack Johnson (34:46):
That's right.
Nelson Chepkwony (34:46):
Yeah, but eventually different people just
come in and the way theydisseminate information is more
of I would say more of justtrying to disapprove something.
Sometimes what we can say,sometimes actually the negative
(35:09):
things tend to make big noiseCompared to like a good thing.
So that's what I'm saying.
We might be seeing a lot ofpeople saying, okay, talking
about evolution, evolution.
Evolution is because that's thething that makes big noise as
compared to what the faith.
So it could be just an anecdotein terms of what.
(35:30):
The news that gets covered themost are the negative news or
things that try to disapprovesomething.
Zack Johnson (35:36):
Yeah, and actually to my, just to take back
something I said here, not totake back but to illuminate it
when you actually survey some ofthe historical scientists, like
Nobel Prize winners of the daysome of the top physicists go
back 30 years you actually findquite a few Christians in the
(36:00):
field and even I'll even mapthis onto the study of creation
and evolution and Darwinism.
I like to make that distinctionthat there actually are
significant skeptics, bothChristians and non-Christians,
on the Darwinian theory and Idon't think enough people know
(36:20):
sort of the skeptical side ofthat theory.
Nelson Chepkwony (36:26):
Am.
Zack Johnson (36:26):
I right or am I wrong?
Nelson Chepkwony (36:27):
You're right If you actually read a lot of
people who wrote about Darwinianwhen it came out, even the
scientists themselves thedisputed.
So sometimes what we are tryingto now read and what we see
mostly is just what is makingmore noise.
But there are actually a lot ofcritics and you should be able
(36:48):
to during those, like if youread the intelligent design
papers we should go back to andsee how clearly different and
how people give their views, butnot the popular view.
Zack Johnson (37:01):
Right, Well, is there another topic that you
want to talk about?
Or, Graham, do you have anyrecommendations on other
questions?
I'll ask one more question.
We have a at tea time.
We have this pearl of wisdom,and I heard one of your pearls.
Is there any general pearl ofwisdom that you carry with you
(37:25):
that you like to share withpeople?
Just lessons you've learned inlife that are meaningful to you?
Nelson Chepkwony (37:31):
Yeah, so I think most of I think that's why
it's a big question.
Zack Johnson (37:36):
It's a big question, yeah.
Nelson Chepkwony (37:38):
I think that is stood up.
For me, most of the time, it'sjust having identity.
Like what do you like wheneveryou're doing something?
Like what is your, how do youperceive yourself and how the
world perceive you.
The most important when itcomes to those aspects is, like
the most important is how youperceive yourself towards the
environment.
(37:59):
In this case, when I'm ascientist, how do I see myself
as a Christian scientist?
That is usually important asopposed to how other people see
me Like.
So I guess trying todistinguish that that is usually
my picker's advice.
Like always have a positiveview from your own views as
(38:20):
opposed to expecting positiveview from the outside.
Zack Johnson (38:23):
Right, that makes sense.
And then I'll just close bythanking you for being here and
talking a little bit about somenews at Sattler.
So we just launched somethingcalled Intrustment Tuition this
is just for everybody where onJanuary 22nd every single
(38:43):
accepted students gets a fullyfunded tuition offer.
It's a pretty big deal.
And then one important deadline, just for anyone listening we
really want to have a healthybody of international students
here and that's it's significant.
You have an internationalbackground.
The hard deadline forinternational applicants is
(39:04):
March 15th, so we're going to beannouncing that.
But I would love if anybodylistening can recommend anyone
considering Sattler.
March 15th is our deadline toshow up at the fall of next year
and I'm hoping that over thecourse of time we can have
people from every livablecontinent here.
Every livable continent isCanada livable, and so we're
(39:34):
hoping to go down that road here.
But that's probably asignificant, probably the most
significant announcement forstudents considering Sattler.
And then also we'll be.
We always hire, and so keepyour eyes out for some vacancies
to come and work at the college.
And Nelson, thank you for beinghere, and I did I actually, when
(39:58):
I opened the episode.
We usually podcast have like alittle intro, but we're thinking
about calling this podcast theentrusted podcast, is that right
, graham?
And so the idea is that God hasentrusted us with a sort of a
sacred commission and then,hence, the institution, entrust
(40:21):
students by investing in them,and we get to talk about a lot
of things surrounding God'sentrustment of humanity and what
he's given here.
So thanks for exploringmicrobiology with us today, and
I hope you had a good time.
Nelson Chepkwony (40:36):
Yeah, my pleasure.
I really enjoyed sharing myexperience in microbiology and
walking outside playing mentalinsurance here.
Zack Johnson (40:44):
Yeah, amen, all right.
Thanks, Nelson.
It is February 8th , 2024, and I'm here with Dr
Nelson Chepquani.
Thank you so much for beinghere with me today.
Nelson Chepkwony (00:11):
I am so excited.
Zack Johnson (00:12):
Yeah, me, I am as well, and moving forward is okay
if I call you Nelson throughoutthis, we can just have a
conversation.
So I usually love to just readthrough people's bios.
I was looking at your bio and Imight need some help
pronouncing a couple things,because you're in the realm of
microbiology, those are yourpassions and I am not, so I
(00:33):
always need corrected.
Are you ready to go?
Yep, all right.
Dr Nelson Chepquani receivedhis bachelor's of science in
biological sciences from CornellUniversity and his PhD in
microbiology from IndianaUniversity.
Nelson has worked as apost-doctoral fellow and
research scientist at okay,you're going to have to say this
(00:54):
from Canada and French.
Nelson Chepkwony (00:56):
University of Montreal.
Zack Johnson (00:58):
In Quebec, canada.
That didn't sound French to me,but there's some accents on it.
He has researched extensivelyhow bacteria attach the surfaces
and form biofilms, with aspecific focus on the synthesis
and properties of bacterialadhesives, or holdfast, and
their adaptation to differentionic environments marine versus
(01:20):
freshwater.
His research aims in part todevelop synthetic bioadhesives
in order to eliminate biofoulingand corrosion and improve
adhesive uses on wet surfaces.
Wow, yeah, anything you have tosay about that, or explain that
part of your bio to somebodywho doesn't know what I just
(01:41):
read.
Nelson Chepkwony (01:42):
Yeah, that is mouthful, but in just very
layman terms is bacteria want tostick to service, so they
produce a very specific glue.
And my interest is actually howcan we mimic that glue and be
able to use it in medicine inbinding things the way we
(02:02):
usually use other glues?
Usually most glue don't work inwet surfaces, but the bacteria
have engineered a way of doingit and it's amazing that we can
leverage that and people tosynthesize the glue that can
work in different environments.
Zack Johnson (02:17):
Wow, I have a hunch that when you began your
college studies that wasn't oneof your passions.
So can you tell me a little bitabout the journey to how you
specialized throughout yourstudies and just sort of the
path that your research took youon and how you chose to study
(02:39):
that particular topic?
Nelson Chepkwony (02:41):
Yeah, so I've been passionate about research
since high school.
But when I joined CornellUniversity for my biology
program, my advisor, dr RebeccaNelson, was doing studying
Aflatoxin.
Toxins are like toxins that areproduced by some fungus that
(03:04):
poison food.
The Aflatoxin had an impact inKenya sometime in 2003.
It killed about 40 people.
So when I saw our lab wasstudying how this toxin can be
prevented, I was excited aboutresearch and that is how that
was the gateway to research.
So I worked with her studyinghow Aflatoxin is produced.
It's produced by thisaspergillus flavors just fungus
(03:30):
and then eventually that was formy own anesthesies.
But eventually, when I was nowafter graduation, when I wanted
to kind of focus, I look at thelabs and I was also looking for
something that had application.
So when I look at bacteria howpeople use bacteria to produce
different components I saw thatthose group in Indiana was
(03:51):
studying how bacteria stick tosurfaces and how we can not
really mimic that bacteria toproduce a synthetic glue.
That is important.
That's how I end up now movingfrom studying the Aflatoxin to
more friendly, because the waterbacteria that I produce are
friendly.
You don't have to worry aboutthe toxins.
So that's how I was drawn nowinto the field of studying
(04:14):
microbes and the interest waslike how can we leverage
bacteria to be our own allies?
Most people think bacteria issome pathogenic that causes
disease, but when I readactually the description in this
Indiana website, we're sayingthat actually we can make this
as allies to help us develop newthings like nuclear, new
(04:35):
components.
So that's how I end up movingfrom studying the Aflatoxins to
now to bacteria.
Zack Johnson (04:43):
And what like as a young person.
How many years did it take youto sort of develop that?
To me it sounds like a veryspecific research topic, and my
guess is that you didn't walk inas a freshman, thinking I'm
going to study Aflatoxins.
Nelson Chepkwony (05:04):
So yeah, so yeah, badly is because also my
advisor.
So the only way I could end upnarrowing down was my advisor
and the knowledge that I alreadygot from the environment.
So as a freshman, I went to myadvisor and I told, okay, I
don't have any other interestthat I wanted to study.
I wanted to study C elegans,which are a different organism
that I use in research formedicine.
(05:26):
When I took to my advisor, myadvisor say well, you can join
our lab.
We studied this, and given thatI had already been have some
knowledge about Aflatoxinshaving effect in Kenya, then
that kind of connected me to beable to choose.
So always having good advices,I guess for me it's been also
(05:46):
one fact that helped me tochoose a given topic.
So, yeah, so, moving from.
So that was more like myadvisor helping me to navigate
through research and then also,after working for four years and
then also attending differentconferences, I started opening
up my mind and trying to seewhat is really interesting me
out there, and when I read atdifferent universities, I
(06:09):
reached out to Indiana.
Well, if so, by then I reachedout to the lab itself.
Then I wrote an email like I'minterested in joining your lab
because you're studying thisbacteria that produces this
wonderful glue and I wanted tostudy.
So yes, and then I went throughthe application process, so
that's yeah.
Zack Johnson (06:26):
All right, let's make sense.
Let's keep reading through yourbio here and see if anything
else comes up.
Previously, nelson also workedas a microbiology supervisor at
Pathogenia Inc in Montreal,where he developed and validated
analytical methods for testingpresence of microbes in food and
active pharmaceuticalingredients for compliance with
(06:47):
FDA regulations and licensingfrom Health Canada.
Prior to pursuing his graduatestudies, he worked as a lead
quality control chemist at PCISynthesis in Newburyport,
massachusetts, so tell me aboutthat section of your background
too.
Nelson Chepkwony (07:07):
Yeah, so when I finished my undergraduate at
Cornell, I wanted to take twoyears off before going to
graduate school.
So during those two years off Idecided to apply to work in a
pharmaceutical company here inNew Barric Port as a chemist.
So there is your analyze howthe drugs meet the FDA standards
(07:28):
.
So I was pretty much as aquality control analyst there.
So I worked there for two yearsbefore going back to graduate
school, and the other working ina pathogenia was also during
the time.
I was sponsored in Universityof Montreal.
Having mastered how thepharmaceutical industry I guess
(07:49):
the quality control in thepharmaceutical industry I took
that knowledge to help thisstartup company in Montreal to
help them develop the method totest for the presence of
bacteria, because when you areluckily producing or testing
drugs, you need to have thosemethods and protocols to develop
.
So I was helping them todevelop that protocol at the
same time.
Yeah.
Zack Johnson (08:09):
Right, I know somebody who works at a food lab
and I got a tour of it here inEast Boston I love.
One of my favorite parts wasthere was a room full of
unreleased products that Iwasn't allowed to look at.
So there are marketingcompanies that, or just
companies that sent their foodto the labs to be tested to be
(08:31):
kind of approved for market.
Yeah, so that maybe this isjust not necessarily.
This is sort of a naivequestion.
But what is the threshold forwhat kinds of foods need
approval from that kind of labversus which foods don't need
approval?
And maybe I know you know theCanada system, canadian and the
(08:53):
US system.
So how do you know?
Like what is it every foodthat's sold at a supermarket?
In a package?
Or how does the FDA regulatethat?
Nelson Chepkwony (09:02):
Yeah, so the regulation for the food is if
you're going to cook the same,if the food are going to be
cooked in terms of, then youdon't have to meet the
regressionist law, because thenyou still be able to kill the
pathogens it's present there.
But any packaged food, anythingthat is sealed, like sugar, or
anything that is sealed thatwhenever you want to eat it you
(09:25):
have to open, that is now youneed to meet the standard.
But for, like potatoes thatyou're going to buy, or salad
that are already pre-packaged,we don't do testing on those
ones.
So the only test is like, thosethings that are already fully
packaged, yeah, so that's andthat doesn't.
Zack Johnson (09:42):
I'm just very curious Does that include bakery
products like bread that's nottechnically sealed?
Nelson Chepkwony (09:49):
That is not technically sealed, because it's
still kind of exposed to theservice, anything that is like
yogurt, for example yogurt, youwill need to pass, milk, you
need to pass standard.
Yeah, you need to measure theamount of pathogens that is in
there and most of the drinksthat are already fully sealed.
But anything that is openusually doesn't need to start.
Zack Johnson (10:09):
Yeah, I learned something every day.
Did you know that Krim?
No, Krim didn't know.
All right, Nelson has a passionfor teaching and mentoring
students at Indiana University.
He taught at a microbiology labcourses, tutored undergraduates
with their biology homework andformed a mentorship program
with other graduate students inthe Department of Microbiology
(10:31):
that offers top performingAfrican students the chance to
have research experience inIndiana University labs.
In addition, he served for twoyears as a student president of
KENSEP.
Nelson Chepkwony (10:42):
Yeah, exactly .
Zack Johnson (10:43):
An NGO that supports international students,
mostly from Eastern Africa.
He supported KENSEP students byproviding a platform where they
could raise issues affectingtheir academics and careers.
Tell me about your relationshipwith students and why you're
passionate about students in theclassroom and mentoring.
Nelson Chepkwony (11:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, you've seen that I
was an international student atsome point and that environment.
When I was a student I had tonavigate a lot of different
hurdles, like immigration,application for new school, like
culture, otherwise, I had toadapt to so many different
aspects in terms of academia.
(11:21):
So it kind of nature brought up, I guess, the urge for me to
mentor other students.
So in terms of mentoring, I dofast.
When I was president for theKENSEP KENSEP is an organization
that brings students from Kenyato undergraduate school here.
So when I was the president Iwas a student president I helped
(11:43):
the student to raise questionslike OK, what are the different
challenges that you have and howdo we solve them?
So in terms of, like I would do, navigating migrations or just
even choosing courses orchoosing universities or what to
do during summer.
So that is what the platformthat I raised.
So we had more like a websitewhere you can put in your
questions and answer.
So whenever we have newstudents, we just refer them to
(12:04):
that space.
And then the other aspect wasOK.
After I completed my graduatedegree, I realized that in those
classes for the graduate schoolI was the only almost African
student in those classes.
So me and Gabriel and otherguys at Indiana University
(12:25):
decided to OK, how can we helpimprove the number of African
students in this researchinstitution?
So we formed the AFRESnet.
So AFRESnet now focus ongraduate students.
We help them to apply forschools.
We talk them about researchfacility, because sometimes they
are really smart students butthey don't have the resources.
(12:45):
They don't know how to apply.
They don't know even if I writea recommendation application
letter, what do I include?
So what we do here is we mentorthe students to know how to
write the recommendation letter,to do the required exams, and
also we also guide them throughthat process.
For example, this this IMAAMalready guiding four students
(13:06):
who are really top students fromGhana and they're applying to
different schools.
So I guide them through theprocess.
I don't do the application, butI tell them what to do and give
them examples on what to do andwhat not to do.
So, yeah, Great yeah.
Zack Johnson (13:20):
And then I've been really encouraged People don't
know, but we have, is it?
Four students from EasternAfrica here and I've been really
encouraged to see sort of acluster of the community here at
Sallar.
Have you managed to talk tothem about sort of their
experience being internationalstudents and things like that?
Nelson Chepkwony (13:42):
Yeah, so yeah , yeah, briefly, we've, we've.
I've already met with them andI've talked to them how to
navigate.
First of all, is theimmigration and how to navigate
to balance between school andall the other requirements.
So I've already talked to themhow to plan for summer and if
they need to work outside, theyalways have my, my, my.
My door is always open for themto come in.
(14:04):
So but I've already met withthem and I already helped them
to navigate the same process.
Zack Johnson (14:09):
Right, that's great.
And then finally, nelson.
This is the last paragraph ofyour bio.
Nelson grew up in anevangelical church in Kenya and
served as a Christian Unionchairperson in high school.
After he moved to the UnitedStates, he served as a student
Christian fellowship leader andBible study teacher at Cornell
University and student presidentfor the Adventist Christian
(14:30):
Fellowship at Indiana University.
Nelson likes to run, playsoccer, travel and cook.
When he visits his native homein Kenya, he enjoys farming,
cattle herding and soaking inthe sun.
I love it.
Nelson Chepkwony (14:42):
Yeah.
Zack Johnson (14:43):
Yeah, how often do you get to go back to Kenya?
Nelson Chepkwony (14:45):
I try to go home once a year.
Okay, but it's been difficultdue to pandemic and and yeah,
yeah, so, but once a year it'sreally good, okay, yeah.
Zack Johnson (14:55):
Yeah, and then was your.
Did you grow up in in the faith?
Was your family?
Your parents are Christians aswell.
Nelson Chepkwony (15:03):
Yeah, so my mom was a Sunday school teacher.
So I grew up in a in aChristian family where every
Sunday a mom will take us to thechurch and she will teach us
the Bible.
I was just from the, from the.
When I was a kid I startedreading the Bible and my dad was
(15:26):
not a Christian in the early,early childhood but he became a
Christian when I was a teenagerand all of us now, the entire
family.
We used to have an evangelicalchurch we had.
We were at the end and also wewere able to read Bibles and we
used to perform skits in church,sing, and then when I moved
here, it was a little bit therewas a.
(15:49):
I was a little bit afraidmoving to America, given America
tend to be very secular societyand what I knew about America
was just in the movies andreally like the.
Zack Johnson (16:00):
Texas Hollywood.
Nelson Chepkwony (16:03):
Yeah, so, yeah.
So I was a little bit afraid so, but I moved in with my Bible
and the first week at Cornell ohno, the first semester when I
was at Cornell, cornell is asecular college I didn't know
which church to go, whichstudent or connection to stay.
So I read my Bible for the.
For one one semester I justevery Sunday I just read my
(16:25):
Bible and pray and then callingback home and fellow shipping.
But eventually I met theAdventist Christian group here
at Cornell and that they kind ofbreached now that spiritual
fellowship that I really needed,because even though I was
reading the Bible I was just Iwasn't feeling good, I wasn't
feel my faith was not strongenough.
(16:45):
So when I met this group nowfor we used to fellowship every
Friday evening and that reallykind of bring like, bring the
faith and strengthen me in termsof going in Christ here- Great.
Zack Johnson (17:00):
And then just this is a we'll move topics here.
When I hear you talk about yourcareer, it seems very natural
to me that the things youstudied were very applicable to
the career you were pursuing.
You studied microbiology andthen you end up, you know,
(17:21):
working in a lab.
But Sattler is a.
We're technically a liberalarts college that have we have
Bachelors of Sciences too, andso I'd love to hear you talk
about how you can make educationapplicable beyond, just beyond
the other things you study, andI know many students right now
(17:43):
in the country are reallyconsidering is college worth it?
Is university worth it?
Should I go under the trades andI, obviously, we work at a
college, so we're, we should beable to make a case for of
course.
Of course it's applicable.
You can make the classroomapplicable to a broad scope of
things.
So do you have any thoughtsabout how to how to make
(18:03):
education applicable, probablybeyond the scope of a specific
thing, or even using it?
No, you can use education tocraft a specific trade like or
skill like, like you've done inthe sciences.
Nelson Chepkwony (18:18):
Yeah.
So I would say yes, my passionis in class.
When I, my passion is a teacher, is to work in the make
education applicable.
So when I'm preparing for classlessons, most of my lessons are
also geared towards like, howcan you, just by understanding
what bacteria do, what is, doesthat impact on your just
day-to-day life?
(18:38):
So, in reality, makingeducational curriculum, being
able to, to have applicablethings, is that's how I I focus
on my teaching.
So when I'm teachingmicrobiology, I don't focus on
you getting.
I'm knowing the small detailsonly.
But also, if you know, okay,how does bacteria grow, what
(18:59):
does that have to affect?
So one way is, like you shouldknow that if you both put your
food on the fridge for a longtime, then remove it and then
and leave it on the table,things can grow because bacteria
, they can stay dormant in thefridge.
But how do we know that?
So we study all bacteria liveand survive, and that now helps
you out every day.
(19:19):
I don't want to leave foodoutside.
I need to be able to take careof food.
So how, making just educationand connecting to to real life,
that is how, like I'm passionatewhen I'm teaching how, how we
can intertwine that Now, ifyou're not in biology major or
if you are in other chemistry,other other areas, usually
(19:40):
knowledge of chemistry sometimesknowing one thing how to
calculate the volume ofsomething might not be important
when you're in class, but whenyou later in life, or when you
are like a medical doctor, orwhen you need to feel or doing
other things, it might help youto have just that critical
thinking.
Zack Johnson (19:57):
Got it, yeah.
And then there's a running.
It's not a running joke here atthe campus, but we make it's
kind of a joke.
We make all of our students getto take a core microbiology
class or human biology asfreshmen.
And I think it was a couple ofyears ago.
Everyone made shirts with aspecific protein drawn on and it
(20:21):
said something like praise Godfor our protein, something to
that sorts.
And I've heard it said bySaller's founder that studying
DNA and even the microbiology isone of the most worshipful
experiences that he hasencountered, because of just the
intense intricacy of humankindand even what's going on inside
(20:49):
our bodies.
Do you have any thoughts onlinking science?
And I'll just say, the worshipof God got worship of God
together.
Nelson Chepkwony (20:57):
Yeah, yeah.
Sometimes when I'm explainingthose details, like how DNA is
just a cookbook that makeseverything like the entire human
, sometimes it's just like howcan this happen?
I'm like, okay, it's just likehow intricate life or how
wonderful and fearful God madeus.
So usually I try to tellstudents how this is amazing,
(21:22):
because things just don't fallinto place just by chance.
There's had to be a intelligentor some sort of intelligent
design in it.
So whenever we study even asimple protein or simple DNA
structure, you always see howGod revealed himself in this
creation.
So that is how life iswonderful is because God had a
(21:47):
very, very specific way ofcreation.
It's just wonderful that itjust cannot happen by just
random chance.
So when students understand howDNA makes proteins and
eventually that proteins makethe human being, then they're
able to see God in a small like,in a microscopic view.
Zack Johnson (22:06):
Right.
And then, just mapping a littlebit further on to this, you can
use this question both as aspiritual lens or a scientific
lens.
How can we make bacteria ourally?
I've heard you say that alittle bit about hey, we don't
have to fear an Alaska fallout,we don't have to fear bacteria,
(22:28):
and maybe try to maybe go at itfrom like a explain to me who
doesn't really have a workingknowledge of it.
But how do we make it our allyand what can the normal average
person do to support yourpassion there?
Nelson Chepkwony (22:45):
Yeah, so, yeah.
So my passion is inmicrobiology is just studying
how bacteria live and survive.
So bacteria.
When we talk about bacteria,there are two types of bacteria.
There are bacteria that don'tcause disease and there are
bacteria that cause disease.
So actually what causes diseaseis almost 1% of the bacteria
population On your body.
(23:06):
You have millions and billionsof bacteria.
Most of them are reallyimportant for you, like
microbiome how he helped yourcat to digest and get new
nutrients.
So they are actually arehelping us and we are.
We help them by eating food.
We provide food for them.
They provide essentialnutrients that we need in our
bodies.
Most of them are actually don'tcause disease.
Like the skin microbiota don'tcause any disease.
(23:29):
They are still there.
They just live there and theyprovide actually they prevent
the bad bacteria from growing onyour skin.
So if you, if you actually washall the bacteria in your skin,
then the bad bacteria might comein and cause disease.
So usually they actually helpus.
So when I say we can make themas allies is if you have a good
bacteria that actually on yourbody, that can also prevent you
(23:50):
getting disease.
We've actually known that mostof the cancers can be our
actually lives our microbiome inour stomach.
So actually, you see that ifyou keep our microbiome in a
good state, we prevent most ofthe cancers.
Okay, so in my research that wediscussed earlier, bacteria can
be useful in terms of technology.
(24:11):
For example, we know bacteria.
God made this bacteria and theyable to engineer this amazing
glue.
We don't know how this glue isproduced, but luckily we can
copy, and we've been doing thisin other things, like how planes
fly, we just copy from thenature.
How you know the ships, we justcopy from the nature.
So the same way, we can copywhat bacteria do.
(24:32):
So in this case, bacteriaproduce this glue for them to
stick to the surfaces and not bewashed by the river.
We cannot really use thatknowledge to for them to give us
the structure of the glue, andthen we can, we can make it.
Another thing is most of thedrugs, like insulin, for example
, bacteria actually, instead ofbacteria.
(24:52):
We can give them the DNA thatmakes the insulin we give the
bacteria.
The bacteria produces theinsulin, so which is the protein
?
So again, we're already usingbacteria as our allies.
So even you know making cheese,for example, or other things,
those are bacteria fermentingsugars and giving us good cheese
.
So they're already our allies.
(25:14):
And when I say we can helppeople to understand, or if your
passion is in microbiology too,you can always look for areas
where you can copy what bacteriado and help improve health or
solve the world problems.
The world problems, for example, the plastic.
There are a lot of plastic andwe can use our bacteria that
digest the plastic.
So it's actually upon like newresearchers who are looking for.
(25:38):
Bacteria eat plastic and thenwe can now just be just growing
bacteria on this plastic andthen just destroy the plastic.
So we can make them allies tosolve our problems that we have
by just adding.
But we have to choose a leg forthose bacteria.
So we have to do a reason, wehave to culture them and we have
to like, engineer them to bebetter at what they do.
Zack Johnson (26:00):
Okay, this is more of a a non-scientist asking a
scientist question.
Is there anything that you doon a regular basis because of
your study of microbiology thatyou recommend other people doing
?
Any habits, diet implications,product consumptions, anything
(26:24):
that you recommend to yourfamily to do to leverage your
knowledge of microbiology?
The examples that come to mymind are like consuming
probiotics and things like that.
I'm just curious if there'sanything that you change about
your daily life because of yourstudy.
Nelson Chepkwony (26:42):
Yes, usually what I do is I don't like to
shock my internal microbiome, someaning that you don't want to
change your diet suddenly.
So if you travel to a new place, don't change your diet
completely, because also thatwhen you get to a diet it's kind
of interferes with themicrobiome and then excessive
use of antibiotics.
So don't use, because wheneveryou take antibiotics it always
(27:05):
kills everything, just kill anybacteria.
So minimize unless the doctororders.
If you are going to lose that.
Zack Johnson (27:13):
So don't if you have any infection, don't
Consult your physician.
I'm just kidding.
Nelson Chepkwony (27:17):
But usually yes.
So how to yes?
So just picture and just, Iguess, taking foreign
precautions.
So for example, during coffeetimes I just fall in the
precaution what the healthministry or whatever, as I was
just advised, usually I followthem because I know if you do
(27:39):
fall those guidelines you can beable to prevent spread of
diseases here Got it.
Zack Johnson (27:43):
And then I'd love to just talk about.
This is, I think, a topic thatI'm semi-passionate about,
because I don't know all theanswers completely but the
relationship betweenChristianity and science.
We were chatting a little bitbefore we started here.
And how do you go aboutthinking about how to have an
(28:04):
intense belief in Christianitywhile trusting in the scientific
method, in the evidentiary part, and I'm kind of hoping to hear
you talk about?
Do we have to choose one or theother?
Can Christianity mix well withscience?
And just how to go aboutthinking about how to avoid some
(28:28):
of the narratives that hey,there's this agenda built behind
the scientific community, maybea political agenda or something
like that.
I'd love to hear you talk aboutit.
Nelson Chepkwony (28:37):
Yeah, that is a big question.
That's a long big question.
But what I can, I guess, givemy own view on this subject is I
don't see, I see science andChristian faith as almost
complementary.
It is sometimes people try tosee like weigh them in different
(28:58):
scales, but I think you can beable to match them together and
in retrospect I always see that,ok, christian right.
Science is just like trying todisapprove Christianity, but
that is more like a notion thatmany people tend to believe in.
(29:19):
How do I reconcile both?
So whenever I do any scientificresearch, I should be able to
collect facts and collecttangible things.
But in faith it is more thanthat.
We know that when you think ofintelligent creation, when we
are intelligent in science, whenwe look at how things, how life
(29:40):
is, how marvelous things aremade in my mind, I've never
found any proof in science thatactually this thing can just
fall into place.
So usually what I take is thatscience is more like just
generating evidence of howcomplex the creation is, and
then, in terms of Christianfaith, we already know the
(30:01):
answer.
We have the faith.
So how do we reconcile justbelieving on something and just
seeing the evidence?
Usually I don't see anycontradiction in that too.
So the only way it can help istrying to learn science as much
(30:22):
as possible, like when peoplesay, ok, dna is something that
is used to generate life, weneed to study that.
And it doesn't mean that we aredisapproving what God made the
DNA for sure.
Not for sure, but that's whatwe believe, that God made the
DNA.
And science says, ok, what isthe DNA to study?
So more like both of them arejust in parallel, like science
(30:46):
is contributing to the knowledgeof what we see and what we feel
.
But faith is more, or justbelieving is more faith.
You have to believe that Godcreated this, because things are
very complex.
You cannot just see things fallin place.
So I have met many, manyChristians who struggle and say,
(31:11):
ok, science is trying todisapprove that God created.
But when you look at whatscience is doing in my field, in
microbiology, we are not tryingto, we are not disapproving the
faith, we're just showing thecomplexity and how things work.
So it's more like if someonecame in and found a house and
then decided, ok, how this housewas built.
(31:33):
You have to look at the bricksand look at the mortar and
cement.
But of course there was acreator.
It doesn't mean that thisbuilding just grew up in its own
.
So that's how I see how thescience is more like studying
how things work.
But faith is, or faith in God,just believing that God created
us.
Those are two differentparallel, I guess, feelings.
Zack Johnson (31:58):
And then another.
We'll switch topics a little.
Is there anything that you loveto recommend that people read
or study?
Is there a book that'sinfluenced you, some sort of
regular news program that youlike to recommend it to people
around you?
Nelson Chepkwony (32:20):
So for graduate students, if you're
already a science studentreading both intelligent design
journals, you can just Googleintelligent design journals.
If you were to be able to giveyou a different how you can
actually see God in creation andat the same time actually
(32:42):
you're not just blanketing andjust having a big plank and say,
oh, this was created, but justhaving to see the details, like,
for example, if you study thestructure of DNA and how those
DNA are regulated in thesejournals the Christian journals
that are publishes are suchfighting.
Zack Johnson (33:00):
Just Google intelligent design, like the
Discovery Institute journals orsomething like that.
And then in related to thatsorry I was going to ask this
before it triggered my thought.
I haven't researched thisextensively, but my general
instinct tells me that over timethe number of scientists who
(33:23):
sort of proclaim faith in God upto about 50 years ago used to
be an overwhelming majority, andthen suddenly we've seen a sort
of a decline of the number ofsort of secular people in
science versus faith-basedpeople in science.
I don't know if that's a littlebit anecdotal, but I've seen a
(33:47):
couple of studies, at least atsome of the Ivy Leagues, about
the number of professors.
But then when you look back toa lot of the giants of science
on who a lot of what we believein is, bill, we see that they
were people of faith.
Do you have any hypothesis asto what's happening behind the
(34:07):
scenes here and why is sciencesecularizing?
And that's a big statement.
I'm not saying that as astatement of fact, but that's
what I generally kind of suspectis happening and that didn't
used to be the case.
So what's happening here?
Nelson Chepkwony (34:27):
I think what I usually say is that there's an
increase of knowledge.
These are like in the last daysthere will be an increase of
knowledge.
So just having many Like thisinstitution.
Initially, most of the collegeswere built under Christian
faith.
Zack Johnson (34:46):
That's right.
Nelson Chepkwony (34:46):
Yeah, but eventually different people just
come in and the way theydisseminate information is more
of I would say more of justtrying to disapprove something.
Sometimes what we can say,sometimes actually the negative
(35:09):
things tend to make big noiseCompared to like a good thing.
So that's what I'm saying.
We might be seeing a lot ofpeople saying, okay, talking
about evolution, evolution.
Evolution is because that's thething that makes big noise as
compared to what the faith.
So it could be just an anecdotein terms of what.
(35:30):
The news that gets covered themost are the negative news or
things that try to disapprovesomething.
Zack Johnson (35:36):
Yeah, and actually to my, just to take back
something I said here, not totake back but to illuminate it
when you actually survey some ofthe historical scientists, like
Nobel Prize winners of the daysome of the top physicists go
back 30 years you actually findquite a few Christians in the
(36:00):
field and even I'll even mapthis onto the study of creation
and evolution and Darwinism.
I like to make that distinctionthat there actually are
significant skeptics, bothChristians and non-Christians,
on the Darwinian theory and Idon't think enough people know
(36:20):
sort of the skeptical side ofthat theory.
Nelson Chepkwony (36:26):
Am.
Zack Johnson (36:26):
I right or am I wrong?
Nelson Chepkwony (36:27):
You're right If you actually read a lot of
people who wrote about Darwinianwhen it came out, even the
scientists themselves thedisputed.
So sometimes what we are tryingto now read and what we see
mostly is just what is makingmore noise.
But there are actually a lot ofcritics and you should be able
(36:48):
to during those, like if youread the intelligent design
papers we should go back to andsee how clearly different and
how people give their views, butnot the popular view.
Zack Johnson (37:01):
Right, Well, is there another topic that you
want to talk about?
Or, Graham, do you have anyrecommendations on other
questions?
I'll ask one more question.
We have a at tea time.
We have this pearl of wisdom,and I heard one of your pearls.
Is there any general pearl ofwisdom that you carry with you
(37:25):
that you like to share withpeople?
Just lessons you've learned inlife that are meaningful to you?
Nelson Chepkwony (37:31):
Yeah, so I think most of I think that's why
it's a big question.
Zack Johnson (37:36):
It's a big question, yeah.
Nelson Chepkwony (37:38):
I think that is stood up.
For me, most of the time, it'sjust having identity.
Like what do you like wheneveryou're doing something?
Like what is your, how do youperceive yourself and how the
world perceive you.
The most important when itcomes to those aspects is, like
the most important is how youperceive yourself towards the
environment.
(37:59):
In this case, when I'm ascientist, how do I see myself
as a Christian scientist?
That is usually important asopposed to how other people see
me Like.
So I guess trying todistinguish that that is usually
my picker's advice.
Like always have a positiveview from your own views as
(38:20):
opposed to expecting positiveview from the outside.
Zack Johnson (38:23):
Right, that makes sense.
And then I'll just close bythanking you for being here and
talking a little bit about somenews at Sattler.
So we just launched somethingcalled Intrustment Tuition this
is just for everybody where onJanuary 22nd every single
(38:43):
accepted students gets a fullyfunded tuition offer.
It's a pretty big deal.
And then one important deadline, just for anyone listening we
really want to have a healthybody of international students
here and that's it's significant.
You have an internationalbackground.
The hard deadline forinternational applicants is
(39:04):
March 15th, so we're going to beannouncing that.
But I would love if anybodylistening can recommend anyone
considering Sattler.
March 15th is our deadline toshow up at the fall of next year
and I'm hoping that over thecourse of time we can have
people from every livablecontinent here.
Every livable continent isCanada livable, and so we're
(39:34):
hoping to go down that road here.
But that's probably asignificant, probably the most
significant announcement forstudents considering Sattler.
And then also we'll be.
We always hire, and so keepyour eyes out for some vacancies
to come and work at the college.
And Nelson, thank you for beinghere, and I did I actually, when
(39:58):
I opened the episode.
We usually podcast have like alittle intro, but we're thinking
about calling this podcast theentrusted podcast, is that right
, graham?
And so the idea is that God hasentrusted us with a sort of a
sacred commission and then,hence, the institution, entrust
(40:21):
students by investing in them,and we get to talk about a lot
of things surrounding God'sentrustment of humanity and what
he's given here.
So thanks for exploringmicrobiology with us today, and
I hope you had a good time.
Nelson Chepkwony (40:36):
Yeah, my pleasure.
I really enjoyed sharing myexperience in microbiology and
walking outside playing mentalinsurance here.
Zack Johnson (40:44):
Yeah, amen, all right.
Thanks, Nelson.
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