January 30, 2024 • 65 mins
Lawyer and history professor? Hans Leaman shares his unexpected journey to Yale University, where he trained to be both a lawyer and a historian. During that time, he researched in Germany and provided attorney services pro bono for refugees in Washington, D.C. He and President Johnson discuss the best ways to welcome and help refugees, especially as the church. Now, as Sattler’s Associate Professor of History (among other roles), he shares his passion for studying humanities and tells President Johnson how he chooses course material and topics for his classes.
Hans Leaman, JD, PhD received his A.B. from Princeton University, a J.D. from Yale Law School, and a Ph.D. from Yale University’s History Department and Renaissance Studies Program. He is the Academic Dean and Associate Professor of History at Sattler College.
Learn more about studying History at Sattler College.
Mentioned in this episode:
• Martyrs Mirror Online
• The Humanities Reading List from Sattler College
• Plough Quarterly – International magazine by the Bruderhof
• First Things - Journal of Religion and Public Life
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Zack Johnson (00:05):
It is November 30th and I'm here with Dr Hans
Lehmann.
Is it okay if I just call youHans?
It's okay, certainly.
So I usually start by reading abio and then I ask you if you
have anything to add or subtractfrom what's written on the bio
online, and then we'll go fromthere.
Sound good?
Sure, all right.
Hans Lehmann received his ABfrom Princeton University, jd
(00:30):
from Yale Law School and a PhDfrom Yale University's History
Department and RenaissanceStudies Program.
He comes most recently from theMax Planck Institute of
Religious and Ethnic Diversityin Getting in Germany.
Good, where he worked as apostdoctoral research fellow in
the Ethics, law and PoliticsDepartment.
(00:51):
He also taught for two years atYale University as a
postdoctoral associate in theIntegrated Humanities,
developing InterdisciplinaryCourses on Refugee Studies,
religion and Human Rights andthe History of Educational
Thought.
Prior to completing his PhD, hepracticed law with an
international firm in WashingtonDC.
(01:13):
Before I keep going, anythingto add or subtract from there.
Hans Leaman (01:18):
Well, I hope there's nothing to subtract.
This is all truthful, but yeah,certainly I could add more
about my life before and besidesstudying, right.
Zack Johnson (01:29):
I'll read what's written next, but just quick AB.
What does AB from Princetonstand for?
Hans Leaman (01:34):
That's just the same as BA, but they award it as
a Latin degree, so it's.
Zack Johnson (01:42):
Got it, put it around and JD.
Hans Leaman (01:45):
That stands for Latin II, juris Doctor, so a
doctor of law.
Zack Johnson (01:52):
Yeah, we want to lack Latin acronyms.
That sounds good and then I'llkeep going here.
Hans is especially interestedin the role that religion plays
in the community, formation andintegration of immigrant groups.
His exam in courts construal ofreligious persecution and
religious freedom in refugee lawand human rights law, and he
wrote his dissertation onconsolation literature that
(02:15):
Reformation era Lutheran andAnabaptist passives wrote to
encourage their confessionalbrethren when they faced exile
on account of religiousnonconformity.
As an attorney he also workedpro bono on behalf of
contemporary refugees and asylumseekers in Washington DC and
Connecticut.
He grew up in Lancaster, countyPennsylvania, and is always
(02:37):
grateful to return for the freshproduce, Hemsings and sunsets
over the farmland.
That resonated with me becausemy wife is now from Lancaster
and I also work with it.
Thank you so much for beinghere, Hans.
Thanks for inviting me.
Yeah, well, I thought we couldjust start by me asking you
about your life a little bit andhow you can probably add before
(02:59):
, during and after the bio there.
I'd love to hear just whereyou're from, some of even why
you chose to go to some of theplaces you went, and how did you
land here at Sattler and you'rekind of all over the map.
So there's a lot to talk aboutSure sure?
Hans Leaman (03:16):
Yeah, well, I would say that when I ended up
focusing in for my studies incollege and graduate school had
a lot to do with where I didgrow up, so in Lancaster, county
Pennsylvania.
It's a place that was settledby a lot of folks with
Anabaptist background comingthere from Switzerland or
Germany in the 1700s becauseWilliam Penn had made
(03:40):
Pennsylvania a colony that wasgoing to respect religious
freedom for the residents thereand then they could practice
their faith, which was unpopularin Europe, freely.
And many of the my ancestorswere many of the Mennonites, or
some of them German Reformed,who might have come for other
reasons to Pennsylvania, but theMennonites brought with them a
(04:06):
book that told the stories oftheir martyrs from the early
period of the Anabaptistmovements, when quite a few went
to the stake on account oftheir nonconformity of their
religious beliefs, and they wereusually given opportunities to
renounce those beliefs but saidthey were remain true to their
(04:28):
faith, their conscience, whetherdeath comes or not.
And what's the name of that?
Yeah, that book is called theMartyr's Mirror or the Bloody
Theater of the DefenselessChristians it was the longer
title and my parents had a copyof that when I was young in our
house and at a very young age Ithink I was in first grade when
(04:50):
I was paging through and ithappens to have some
illustrations, so I didn'tunderstand all the text for sure
and probably didn't read awhole lot of it, but I could
look at the pictures and theycaptivated me.
I had pictures.
It ties the Anabaptist martyrsto the martyrs of the early
church, so I had pictures,images of early Christian
martyrs and with a backdrop ofRome.
(05:12):
But then it also had images ofthose in 16th century Germany or
Switzerland, and so theyfascinated me because I saw
people filled with conviction orthose who were still trying to
testify to their faith to thelast moments that they could to
tell people why they were soconvinced of what they see in
(05:35):
the scriptures that it's willingto give up their lives for that
sake, for the sake of Christ.
So that always stuck with me asan inspiration.
When I read Hebrews 11 of theCloud of Witnesses, I could
think of those types of imagestoo, and extends Paul's concept
of the people of God as goingfrom the Old Testament up
(05:57):
through then Christian history.
And when it came time to figureout what I wanted to study in
school, I thought, yeah, I'dlike to study especially people
like that, who are worthremembering and retelling their
stories so they're not forgotten, but also then to explore the
period in which that book wasmade and to understand the types
(06:20):
of people who are trying tocompile those stories in their
own lifetimes and form aidentity for a congregation of
believers.
So that's why I focused on theReformation and have always been
interested in how Christiansform community and try to hold
(06:40):
it together despite all kinds ofsocial pressures from outside
that would try to make it seemimpractical to hold to tight
community such as Christianspractice.
So, yeah, I've always beeninterested in exploring the
dynamics of successful Christiancommunities, as well as
(07:01):
understanding the dynamics thatare challenges and having them
too, and then for people whodon't know about the martyrs
mirror I know our audience.
Zack Johnson (07:14):
Some of them may or may not have run into that.
I have a copy and it's on ourbookshelf too.
It's what's the best way to getyour hands on a copy of the
martyrs mirror.
Is this somewhere online?
Hans Leaman (07:27):
There is a free edition online that's an English
translation and it does include, I think you can click on each
of the illustrations too, but itis still published, I believe,
by Harold Press, maybe.
Zack Johnson (07:42):
And from what I understand, somebody's gonna
have to correct me, but theillustrations in the martyrs
mirror were done by carving.
Hans Leaman (07:50):
Yeah.
Copper plate etchings yeah.
So I don't know how long ittakes to make a beautiful
etching like that I've etched ina long time.
But yeah, I believe some of theoriginal copper plates still
exist.
Zack Johnson (08:04):
Every time I open it, I love looking through the
illustrations.
I mean, the content of them isheart-wrenching right.
I think they're worth lookingthrough themselves.
And then the one that I bumpinto most often is the Is Dirk
Willems?
Is that a martyr's mirror, or?
Hans Leaman (08:25):
is he's rescuing a man who's fallen into a frozen
river, Right?
Zack Johnson (08:29):
I think that might be one of the more popular
etchings from yeah, probably themost popular.
I bumped into it.
I was just in a businessman'soffice and I was hanging on the
wall in there.
So tell me, why did you choosePrinceton?
I'm assuming?
Hans Leaman (08:49):
Well, sadler College didn't exist.
Yeah, besides, right, yeah,it's a good question, because I
have two older siblings who weredefinitely influential in my
life and people I looked up toand tried to follow in their
path.
Often they both went toChristian colleges, to Messiah
College in particular, andPennsylvania, which was just
(09:09):
about an hour from our home.
So, yeah, to a school wherethere had been plenty of people
that they also knew, friendspeople.
A good number would always gofrom my high school there.
So, yeah, it would have been anatural path for me to follow.
My brother by that point hadgone on from Messiah College to
(09:32):
law school and he loved thoseyears of law school and met a
lot of interesting people.
And he encouraged me when I wasa senior to apply to at least
one school where the odds ofgetting in, getting admitted are
small and see what happens.
(09:52):
And the school that he got areally good impression of from
some of the friends he had inlaw school was Princeton.
He knew a couple who had gonethere and they seemed to say
that they loved their collegeexperience more than many other
students they got to know whowere at schools that also had a
(10:14):
reputation to be especiallychallenging and that also
happened to be a school that'snot too far from home as well
that was only two hours fromhome.
So I applied to Princeton andso just thought give it a shot.
But also applied to Messiah andother schools that I thought
were more likely but that theyhave early decision as a
(10:39):
possibility for the admissions.
So yeah, technically, if you'readmitted under that, then
you're expected to come.
You're kind of obligatingyourself to come, and I had
applied to Princeton first, thenthrough that program, and
didn't expect to get in.
Little did I know about theprocess but I thought, yeah,
maybe it'll boost my chances inthe regular admissions season.
(11:02):
I didn't know at that pointthat if you're rejected for
early decision, you're probablyrejected for the regular too.
But yeah, I got an acceptanceletter, I think the day before
my birthday, remember.
So yeah.
So then I had to go to myparents and say I think I might
have just obligated us to maybego to Princeton.
(11:24):
Then my dad asked how much isthis going to cost?
But no, my parents were verysupportive and they made it
possible to attend.
Zack Johnson (11:35):
And then the hop from Princeton to Yale.
Did you do anything in betweenthose two, or was it direct?
Hans Leaman (11:47):
Yeah, no, I went straight from graduating in the
spring to starting graduateschool the next fall.
Yeah, so it serves that I waskind of, by that point, really
excited about studying historyand yeah, I do have really great
professors in college to thankfor that.
I had one advisor my junioryear named Peter Brown, who
studies a lot of early churchhistory.
(12:10):
He wrote a wonderful biographyof Augustine that's just a
delight to read.
And then I had another advisornamed Anthony Grafton from my
senior project, my senior thesis, and so they were both a very
helpful one, helping me preparefor applications straight away
(12:30):
and do many people do JD and PhD?
Zack Johnson (12:34):
Were those simultaneous or it's not a
common combination?
So I'd love to hear about whyyou chose those two.
Hans Leaman (12:44):
Right.
So when I was deciding to applyto history grad schools, the
other option was to apply to lawschools.
One reason my brother reallyloved it and loved the
profession of law once he waspracticing and I was always
interested, especially in as faras subject matters, especially
(13:04):
political philosophy and thehistory of ideas, and I thought,
well, yeah, I don't know if Ishould, maybe you know if law
school would be the better placeto study than history grad
school.
But I decided by senior yearthat now would I, would I really
love.
My first love is history andyeah, I think I would like to
teach it to.
But after two years of being inmy history program I did
(13:30):
recognize that there are a lotof really talented students who
are graduating with history PhDsand there are more of them than
there are open historypositions to teach at colleges.
So PhD students need to havesome sort of backup plan if they
can't find a teaching job rightaway.
So yeah, I thought on thepractical side I should have a
(13:55):
plan B, but also to fuse it withmy history studies.
I also came back to my stronginterest in political philosophy
and I was also doing a projectfor one of my classes that
brought me into legal historyand I was really enjoying that.
So I thought, well, maybe lawschool will be a good fusion of
(14:16):
my pairing that with my PhD.
It'll actually be somethingthat prepares me well to teach
on a broader spectrum ofsubjects.
So I did go into practice afterlaw school, for a number of
reasons.
One, just to see what theprofession is like, of course.
(14:37):
But I still always thought ofmyself as probably enjoying
teaching the most.
And yeah, after a couple ofyears of practice, which I did
immensely enjoy, had a wonderfullaw firm to practice at, I did
decide, at the same time asdeciding to get married to a
current PhD student, that wouldbe a good transition point to
(14:58):
head back and finish thedissertation.
And yeah, I kind of put my eggsin the history basket.
Zack Johnson (15:05):
How long was it the PhD?
I'm just curious.
Hans Leaman (15:09):
So studying European history involves
learning languages.
So a typical I think an idealpath would typically be seven
years.
It took me eight to do my thehistory PhD side of things.
Zack Johnson (15:25):
Is that eight years of grueling work, or is it
sort of elongated?
I'm just curious how, what lifelooks like during those years.
Hans Leaman (15:35):
Most PhD programs, at least in the humanities, they
start with two years ofcoursework, so you're taking
classes like you would incollege.
Then your third year, you studyfor what they call
comprehensive exams.
So you read a lot for a schoolyear and then at the end of that
school year then you comebefore a panel of professors who
(15:56):
will ask you questions aboutwhat you read.
Zack Johnson (15:59):
Like literally reading books, not the.
Hans Leaman (16:01):
There's no really important books in your field,
so getting a sense of what theliterature is in your field.
So for me, of course, then Iwas reading all the regardless,
the most important scholarlyworks on the Reformation, from
the 20th century and early 21stcentury and the Middle Ages, the
Renaissance, and I had coveredanother field of Renaissance
(16:27):
arts and architecture, so thingsthat would all help to be able
to, you know, be able to respondto students' questions.
So when the time comes, whenthe student asks you, you know,
for a good reading list, whenthey're trying to write a paper
that you'd have, you know, agood store of in your memory, of
classic works to recommend tostudents.
Zack Johnson (16:46):
Okay, I'll take, I'll ask a little, gonna take a
little bit of a turn here.
I know a lot of people, a lotof Christians in particular,
interested in refugee work, workwith asylum seekers, and it
(17:06):
feels like a met, a really bigworld right now.
Would you mind just talking alittle bit about your interest
in that field and what you didin your work as an attorney, and
then maybe even some any adviceto your average, your average
person that's interested inthose, those, those issues and
(17:28):
how, what you would recommendthem reading or preparing for or
just positioning themselves ingeneral to help out?
Hans Leaman (17:37):
Yeah, well, I mean, we have the the good fortune to
be living in a country that isa destination for many migrants.
So the world is, you know,coming to us from from many
different backgrounds, culturaland religious backgrounds.
So it's a wonderful opportunityfor for ministry and to helping
(17:57):
people to feel a sense of homewhen they come to a new land.
So having many, many refugeesanother immigrant say that the
the biggest source of relief forthem or a source of
encouragement, hope for thefuture when they're in a new
land, is when they feel likethey've finally made a friend of
(18:20):
, of somebody who's a native ofthat new country, that they have
a have, somebody that theycould, you know, call up or
visit at their home andexperience, you know,
hospitality, and that theywouldn't feel like they're being
treated as as a stranger, orrather as a friend.
So, yeah, to have Christianswho are simply willing to seek
(18:42):
out and interact and treat ascolleagues and friends newcomers
is makes a huge difference intheir lives.
So, you know, people don't haveto think about it necessarily
as serving as providing somesort of material aid.
I mean, those things are allhelpful, but ultimately, yeah,
(19:03):
friendship is usually whatpeople say that they are they
are most eagerly seeking.
So that's something that we canall do.
For sure, there are particularlegal needs that refugees often
do need once they arrive.
So people who are designated asrefugees and arrive at the US
as refugees usually have somesort of advanced legal work
(19:25):
that's been done for them andthat they went through the
process of being interviewedintensively by State Department
officials to verify, you know,their backgrounds and their
qualifications under theinternational law of definition
of a refugee and the UnitedStates has chosen them as
privileged few out of the manypeople who would love to get
(19:47):
that status and be reset withthe United States.
They're being, you know,they're the ones who have been
chosen to come.
But still, once they arrive,it's a pretty short clock in
which they receive benefits fromthe government.
They need to find a job withinsix months and start being able
to support themselves.
(20:07):
And, of course, to find a job inthe United States is always
complicated by matters oftransportation.
Right, we don't have greattransportation, probably
transportation like in Europe,where you might live somewhere
and be able to get across towneasily, you know, by trains,
tram cars or buses.
So one of the prime ways thatpeople could also help refugees
(20:32):
in that first struggle to find ajob that will work for their
family is to help providetransportation.
Is that like People do that asdrivers Just drivers For them
right?
Because usually they can't?
Many people coming fromdeveloping countries haven't had
the experience of ever drivingbefore.
(20:52):
They didn't take drivinglessons.
So that's something thatthey'll do eventually in the US
typically, but it takes time.
It takes more time than whenthey need to find a job
themselves.
Zack Johnson (21:03):
Are there organizations that facilitate
those partnerships that youmight point people to?
I know it might be.
Hans Leaman (21:10):
Right?
So certainly so, when the waythe US handles their refugee
resettlement work, is they?
There are a number of differentorganizations that are
privately run, but they receivecontracts from the US government
to help resettle them, and sothere'll be organizations like
ChurchWorld Service or theInternational Refugee Committee,
(21:34):
and they will have staff andlocal communities who meet them
when they arrive, certainly, andthen work with other
organizations to find housingfor them, and churches will
sponsor a family and find anapartment before they arrive
that will work for the size ofthe family.
(21:55):
And yeah, then there's refugeeresettlement agencies, there's
voluntary agencies.
They try to coordinate peoplewho will help volunteer to drive
the folks to work and then justbe resource people, for Also,
plenty of medical appointmentsare necessary so they can be
(22:15):
drivers to those appointmentsthat just guide them through all
the different institutions thatseem for voting to newcomers.
So, of course, navigating ourmedical system is confounding to
people Donting.
So yeah.
Zack Johnson (22:32):
I'm gonna ask a little bit more of a Maybe not a
controversial question, but Ihope I'll just get your thoughts
on it.
So in the Christian world youmentioned, one of the greatest
things is developing afriendship with someone.
I love that answer.
Do you have any advice?
On some of the circles I hangout in, there's sort of an
(22:53):
evangelistic pressure that isattached to the friendship and
there's sort of like a hey,ultimately you wanna befriend
someone so that you can presenta gospel message at some point
in time.
Is that?
Do you think that'smanipulative?
(23:14):
Is it okay to think about that?
Any guiding principles that youmight have heard about just how
to think about that?
As a Christian who loves totalk about Christ and his ways
versus trying, what are yourtrue motivations?
Is it friendship or is itevangelism?
Is it okay to have dualmotivations?
(23:35):
I mean there's not a simplesolution to that, but I'd love
to hear your thoughts.
Hans Leaman (23:40):
Yeah, well, I think we could make a distinction
between our motivations and ourunderstanding of the other
person's situation, and I thinkthat would be a good way to
navigate the question.
So we can't deny what we aremotivated by and to be honest
(24:07):
about our sense of personhoodand what inspires us to act.
We should include that we aremotivated by the gospel as
Christians, but there areappropriate times to share
(24:27):
matters of religion with otherpeople and inappropriate times,
I think, because religiondoesn't involve just a cerebral
confession of faith.
It also involves a sense ofcommunity, and we want to be
(24:52):
able to talk about how, when weshare our faith, how it makes a
difference in how we live outour lives, that we have a
relationship with God that we'vegained by placing faith and
Christ's redemption of us.
But it also has a horizontaldimension too, that we share it
with other people and that itdraws us into community of
(25:14):
investment with other people whobelieve likewise, and that we
want to encourage their faithand discipleship too.
So inviting somebody into thatrelationship with God is also we
have to be aware of what itmeans culturally for them and
the community that they would besurrounded by too.
It means, I think it would beto invite somebody into that in
(25:43):
a moment when they areespecially vulnerable and at a
loss of the community that theyhave treasured in their lives so
far and that helped to formthem and gave them a sense of
identity, to seize upon a momentthat they're especially
vulnerable and feeling a loss ofthat when they've migrated from
(26:06):
their home culture to anAmerican one.
I think that would not be theright timing to present the full
gospel message.
But we live out the gospelthrough our love of neighbor.
Zack Johnson (26:21):
So if you're driving someone to work, don't
give them the gospelpresentation If they don't take
it close to door on them.
I'm just kidding.
Hans Leaman (26:30):
Certainly, there are plenty of people who migrate
out of discontentment withtheir current situation too.
Some people might have becomerefugees on account of their
nonconformity, that they'vemaybe fled their family
circumstance because they wantto be, they're curious about a
new faith and maybe they arecurious about Christianity, and
(26:51):
so there might be instances whenyou, as a driver, then
encounter you're talking andthey, a recently migrated person
, will ask questions about whatmotivates you.
Then, of course, that would beappropriate, shows their
curiosity.
But, yeah, I would say thatit's something that we would get
(27:12):
a sense of when is a goodopportunity only after we've
established a sufficiently deeprelationship with the other
person.
So, yeah, so I think thefriendship would need to come
first.
Zack Johnson (27:23):
Yeah, I actually really.
That was really helpful.
And do you have any other anyother thoughts on an appropriate
versus inappropriatecircumstances?
I know any other analogies orexamples that come to your mind.
I'm just curious.
Hans Leaman (27:40):
If not, I think that Well, it's always a golden
rule always ask us to putourselves in the other person's
shoes, right?
So I always I feel empatheticwith people who, who.
So studies often show thatimmigrants actually often come
(28:04):
back to a greater appreciationof their faith once they are in
a new culture, right?
So, and I think that makessense when I think about myself,
when I have lived outside of myhome community, for me, I've
usually been in Europe where thepopulation is, at large, not as
(28:26):
not participating in churchlife as much as those around me
in the United States are.
That, yeah, I sense that andfeel, you know, that I'm in a
minority, right, so I canidentify with somebody who has,
who might be coming from acultural background or from a
faith that's different thanwhat's predominant, than the
(28:49):
Christianity that's predominantin the United States.
Right, and so I can, from myexperience being abroad, that I
kind of know what they theymight be going through
recognizing.
Okay, I'm a minority.
Now, and when I've been inEurope, it's very refreshing for
me, devotionally, and that itdoes cause me to be more
contemplative.
Yeah, I'm not.
(29:10):
As typically, as you know, Idon't have as many people to
talk with.
You know, I don't have as manyfriends there as I do here.
So yeah, then I have more timeto engage in devotional
practices and many people mightvery well be doing that with
their, their faith.
That's what Muslim person orHindu person they might be
(29:33):
appreciating more and more.
You know in now that they're aminority in America appreciating
more about their faith andreflecting more upon that.
So if we we can kind of expectthat they might be going through
that greater and greaterappreciation of their faith, it
(29:54):
might be interesting as aconversation to talk about.
You know what has beenformative for us?
When have we also come to agreater appreciation of our
faith, of Christianity?
What moments did we feel likeit wasn't as guiding us as
intently day to day?
And then when did we come backto make it more of a guide for
(30:17):
us day to day?
And that might be cause forthem to examine, you know, how
they're relating to their faithat the moment and admire
something about your faith.
Zack Johnson (30:28):
Right, I want to ask one more question, then
we'll go on to another one.
But what in your mind?
This is more of a practicalquestion, but in order to set
yourself up for some of thesemeaningful conversations, my
guess is there's like some sortof you don't just happen to have
that conversation with somebodyin the first encounter you have
(30:51):
with them.
And so what are some simplelike cross-cultural bridges that
allow for cross-culturalfriendships?
I mean, the obvious ones thatcome to my mind are languages,
and being able to communicate inmother tongues is important.
But then there's hospitalityhospitality tricks and tips.
(31:15):
Do you have anything that youfound in your own life that sort
of helps bridge some of thecultural gaps that might exist,
that you kind of can find commonground in?
Hans Leaman (31:27):
Yeah, well, certainly, people are really
appreciative when you show aninterest in their culture, right
, and the history of the peoplethat they're coming from, the
country that they're coming from.
So this is actually a point, amotivating point for me to study
and teach history, and that Ihope that most of our students,
(31:47):
as a Sattler, come away with asense of confidence that when
they meet somebody for adifferent culture, that they
have an idea of how they couldrelate to them, they have a
broad enough knowledge ofdifferent cultures, that they
have a few conversational itemsthat they could talk about, that
they would you know a leader inthe person's home country and
(32:10):
in this history, that you couldsay something about them.
And people will typically bevery impressed, right, they
don't expect Americans to knowmuch about history.
Zack Johnson (32:20):
I think a capital city can go a long way yeah.
Hans Leaman (32:23):
But yeah, so just showing, doing a little enough
study to show that youunderstand some of the big
social changes that their homecountry went through.
Of course, to understand thedynamics that might have caused
them to have left their homecountry, of course, would be
especially appreciated,especially when you're dealing
(32:46):
with refugees.
Many have gone throughtraumatic circumstances that
they usually when they'reidentified as refugees and
resettled in the United States.
They have spent a good numberof years in a refugee camp
already.
So they fled their home region,found safety at a UN
administered refugee camp andthen had a long period of
(33:09):
waiting there.
Right, sometimes, you know, thecamps are not incredibly
desirable places to live longterm.
So they fled something, youknow, that compelled them to
leave and had there for sure toseek safety, so they were
fleeing violence.
But then the refugee camps canalso be very difficult places
where there sometimes isviolence.
(33:29):
You know, when you gather a lotof people who have experienced
traumatic circumstances and theyget frustrated with just being
stuck in one location for awhile, yeah, there can be a lot
of difficulties that they'vegone through recently, so they
might not want to talk aboutthat Like they're happy to.
You know, put that behind themfor a while.
Eventually, maybe after years,they wouldn't want to tell their
(33:51):
story right, but they mightlove to talk more about, you
know, what are the underlyingpolitical circumstances that led
to the, the, the strife thatthey ended up fleeing from, or
what are some of the solutionsthey would have in mind.
What would they love to seechange in their home country in
order to restore peace to theirland, make it possible for them
to go back, right?
(34:12):
So, yeah, so I think peopleappreciate that type of
engagement.
So that takes a little workthere, probably the work you
might say, or reading, but, yeah, on a more impromptu basis,
yeah, certainly, people love totalk about their food.
So hospitality and gives youthat opportunity, you know you
might serve what.
(34:33):
You know how to cook, right,but you can talk about you know,
then, traditions, things thatyou associate with your foods
when you're, when you're hostingsomebody, and then ask them
about data, the types of foodsthat they might associate with
various traditions, and thenthat conversation would lead to
you know one of the mainholidays or festivals that have
given you a sense of, you know,family and community, and then
(34:56):
it can lead from from from that,to learning more about, indeed,
their family members, some ofwhich might not be with them
right anymore, or, or, yeah,what they, what they appreciated
about their, their homecommunities, and what they're,
what they're experiencing, thatthat's different here in the US,
right then, once you hear whatthey're, what they know is
different, or what they'restruggling with, then you have a
(35:16):
better sense of how you can canbe of assistance.
Zack Johnson (35:20):
Well, I guess that presents a really compelling
reason to study history, to beable to connect with, with
people from different cultures.
And I guess this will lead meinto just talking about you.
You've said you enjoy teachingand you enjoy the classroom.
I'd love to hear about what aresome of the classes that you
(35:43):
have taught in the past, eachnow, and is there one that
you're has your heart or thatyou're more passionate about
that others than any?
Any former funk, any capacity?
Hans Leaman (35:57):
Well, I have been the, the main faculty member who
crafted the curriculum for ourthree course sequence of
humanities, classes that takestudents from ancient Greece to
the cusp of the 20th century,just reading great texts that
(36:18):
have been especially influentialin Western civilization.
Now, so we don't spend timereading history books about
ancient Greece, ancient Rome,about the Middle Ages,
renaissance and Reformation, butwe just simply read the
writings of authors who havewritten some of the texts that
(36:39):
made the that had the mostinfluence in their day or have
had the most influence over overtime, over centuries.
And, of course, love engagingwith those texts because they
they pose timeless questions, soones that have been studied at
universities for centuries, ofcourse, and ones that still
(36:59):
present questions that, yeah, weall I think all college
students come, come into schoolyou know grappling with, and
usually we don't havesatisfactory answers that we can
come to within our class time.
But they provide issues thatstudents can know that they can
continue to grapple with andstart filling in, you know holes
(37:23):
that they.
They sense from those classes,as they take more and more
classes in their in their upperclassman years at the college,
that they have a good number ofreference points.
Right, they can start to fit in.
When they read a 20th centurytheologian, they can say, oh,
okay, I can see where he'sinfluenced by these reformers.
Or I can see where he's goingback to some something that we
(37:46):
saw in early church theologiansor medieval theologians and
trying to revive something thatthey appreciated about church
life in the past.
Or, yeah, I can see where thisperson is.
Even the 20th century is kindof reviving the stoicism.
Or or, yes, yeah, other ancientsets of value systems.
Zack Johnson (38:06):
So I wanted to link this.
I think there's a humanitiesreading list on our website that
goes I think it's probablypretty, pretty fresh, and it has
a list of some of the worksthat people go through in.
That is that the three coreseries and when I I feel like
(38:32):
the list is pretty long.
Do students make their waythrough all of these books here
while they're here, or is thatexcerpts of them?
Hans Leaman (38:43):
Yes, All those authors on the page they can see
at the Satellar Humanity pageare ones that we read.
Not all of them do we read theentire works.
Many of them we have to becontent with with excerpts.
But we do read usually lengthyexcerpts that are at least 25 to
(39:05):
50 pages, so we get a goodsense of the substance of the
author's argument.
Zack Johnson (39:12):
And so is there a.
There's a long list here so Ican't go through all of them,
but is there a particular workon this list that students tend
to kind of gravitate more likelight up and engage with more
than others?
Some of them I know areimportant but thick to work
through.
I had to work through theacidities in my undergrad and
things like, and it's some ofthe texts are harder to engage
(39:34):
with.
But maybe I'm just asking wheredo you on this list, where
would you start if you are acertain audience member not
engaged in the humanities?
That's a hard question.
Hans Leaman (39:47):
Students really enjoy our first reading,
although I don't know if that'swhere I would say guide people
to immediately, but we start outthe course on the ancient world
reading the Odyssey by Homer,so one of the.
We only have time for one ofthe two great epics by Homer,
and so I chose Odyssey becauseit's a story of homecoming and I
(40:11):
think it resonates with collegestudents' experiences, you know
, being away from home.
So story of homecoming forOdysseus.
But it's also a story of cominginto, growing into one's
identity and having appreciationof their family inheritance.
For Odysseus's son, who goesout in search of information
about where his father has been,after he hasn't returned home
from the treasure more after 20years.
(40:33):
So that's Telemachus.
So I think college students cansee themselves through
Telemachus' journey ofself-discovery as they go away
from home, but then also startto appreciate, you know, what
they desire for flourishing homelife too that Odysseus is
(40:53):
longing for in the meantime.
So yeah, so students reallyenjoy.
They usually say I enjoyed thisa lot more than I expected.
Zack Johnson (41:02):
Sure Instagram.
I get a fat check.
No, sorry.
Hans Leaman (41:10):
And then certainly that has to do with it is a
great tale.
I mean, it wouldn't have lasted.
It was recopied.
We have more copies from theancient world of the Odyssey
than any other text, as Iunderstand.
So it was popular back thenthat people you know invested in
the handwritten recopying of itand yeah, so we have more
(41:30):
manuscripts of it than othertexts.
But yeah, it's resonated downthrough the centuries too and
many Christians have found waysto treat some of the stories in
it as good illustrations ofChristian fortitude as well.
And if the Odyssey certainlyhas character traits that would
not be part of the sameChristian ethical paradigm.
Zack Johnson (41:53):
So you don't have to sell me on this, hans, but
can you try to make the case towhy so?
This is part of our core.
Every single student is goingthrough these humanities classes
.
Why should every student gothrough these, whether you're
biology, business, computerscience, history, biblical and
(42:14):
religious studies?
What's the idea behind everyonetaking these and reading these
and yes.
Hans Leaman (42:21):
Well, I think of it as the syllabus for these three
courses, as providing a basisfor cultural reference points
that students will as they goforward in life.
When they're reading an op-ed ina newspaper or magazine
articles that they will be ableto fit in with the author of
(42:45):
that article is saying with asense of comparison to what some
of the mainstream's mainphilosophies that have been out
there since initiation times,they'll be able to fit them in
and compare them well, but alsosimply be able to know what many
words that the authors areusing, what they mean.
(43:07):
There are all kinds ofcharacters from literature that
authors will simply throw outand they expect an educated
populace to know what that'sreferring to.
That's happened because eversince the renaissance there's
been a canon of great literaturethat people look back to and
(43:27):
said these are great texts andthat an educated person would
have some familiarity with them.
They continue to be taught atuniversities.
There's a lot of assumptionsthat writers make about the
general American audience thatthey would know the reference
(43:48):
points from the texts that we'rereading.
Zack Johnson (43:52):
And then one of the.
I'll try to sell Sattler here alittle bit more when I'm
talking to students about whySattler versus other schools.
We only have five majors and soa lot of students want to
specialize in something that wemight not offer and I often talk
about hey, you could have theopportunity to choose one of our
(44:13):
five majors and then gospecialize later in a graduate
level.
Would you say that that'sdecent advice?
Given our liberal arts approachto education, I know it's kind
of a hard one.
Hans Leaman (44:29):
I've seen more and more studies come out in the
past number of years looking atsuccessful leaders in American
life, so looking at CEOs orpeople who have distinguished
themselves in the sciencesultimately or, yeah, leaders in
public life.
(44:50):
And they keep finding out thatmany of them had studied
something quite broad at thecollege level and even if they
went into the sciences later on,many actually had started in a
humanities field.
And it's surprising but, yeah,especially in the business field
that you might have plenty ofbusiness majors at the middle
(45:13):
management level, but thatthere's something about those
who are promoted into leadershippositions that they have some
sort of emotional quotients, ofability to relate to other
people, to be empathetic and inmeetings that might come from
(45:34):
their study of great literatureand thinking about why people
make decisions that they do intheir life, to think
empathetically about them.
That feels like historyintroduced to students to start
that kind of skill set.
So, yeah, so I think of thesehumanities classes as having a
(45:55):
place in the core to help createwell-rounded students in
general.
So even if we do want them tograduate with, if they're a
computer science major, thatthey do have a skill set that is
appreciated by companies thatneed computer science experts,
that they will fulfill thoseexpectations, that they will be
(46:17):
useful for their futureemployers but that they will
still have the emotional skillsets that come from studying
other fields as well, and viceversa.
That we have a couple ofclasses that are required of
humanities students, that theywill practice quantitative
skills and that they will havebe well-rounded enough to be
(46:40):
able to think critically aboutstatistics that they might be
reading in newspapers ormagazine articles, that they
would be alert to ways thatstatistics can mislead right and
that they can do some hard mathor have sufficient knowledge of
cell biology to sort throughthe incredible amount of medical
(47:02):
claims and studies that aremarketed these days.
Zack Johnson (47:07):
Yeah, and I wanted to.
What you were just talkingabout reminds me of an article
you sent me about the benefitsof having the same teachers who
are with students over multipleyears.
It's sort of a tangent.
So there was an article.
Hans Leaman (47:22):
I think it was in the New York Times.
Zack Johnson (47:23):
You sent me about this topic and it's something
that I didn't have it undergradI only ever had.
I had a couple teachersrepeated, but it was a very odd
thing because there's a biginstitution, so sometimes you
have students they're freshman,sophomore, junior and senior
(47:44):
years.
I think that's right and canyou tell me about some of the
benefits there that you mightsee or that other people are
writing about now as well?
Hans Leaman (47:55):
Yes, so yeah, the op-ed that you're referring to,
that was written by Adam Grant,an professor at the University
of Pennsylvania who's just avery creative guy.
He comes up with a lot of goodstudies to test out that are
mainly interested in oureducational development.
They usually have some sort ofrelationship to what would end
(48:19):
up being effective education.
Thank you, one of the thingsthat I that resonated when I
read that article is that I atSeller I've had the privilege to
be able to walk with studentsfrom freshman year to senior
year and so was with them whenthey were younger students and
(48:42):
just learning more advancedwriting skills and having to
write longer form essays thanasked of them in high school, as
we do At the college level.
So I'm able to see, you know,what some of their inclinations
are in writing and you know,give them initial advice and
(49:06):
then to be able to see ifthey're implementing it, not
just in that first course.
But then I'm able to.
You know I can, I can see kindof writing quirks, you might say
that fit.
You know certain studentspersonalities or and just kind
of train be alert to that.
You know I can expect to seesome of them, but I can also
(49:29):
start to see more conformity tothe expectations of an academic
essay with time, and that'ssomething that's, yeah, one
semester's worth of advice andmonitoring wouldn't wouldn't go
terribly far.
So, yeah, by being able to bethere and, yeah, you know, know
what to expect and then be ableto know what advice I've already
(49:52):
given, we can keep buildingupon what we had before.
Zack Johnson (49:56):
Yeah, I think it's a really.
I think it's a reallycompelling argument and I mean
the basic is parent.
I think about it in parenting.
I can imagine trying to developmy child if I only got to spend
three months at a time withthat over time and I was
thinking about it in terms ofparenting.
Well, we're coming up aboutabout on an hour.
(50:17):
Is there any other topic orinterest that I missed that
you're really passionate aboutthat?
You want to?
You want to touch on before Iask some of our series of
closing questions here?
Hans Leaman (50:29):
Well, I, when you were talking about refugees, I
realized that I hadn't talkedabout the, the legal needs that
I actually that's where I mainlytried to fill fill a gap for
since it was, you know so, askill set that I, that I that I
had developed by going to lawschool.
So that's something that a lotof refugee resettlement agencies
(50:51):
do provide some legal services,and it's actually not something
that you necessarily have to goto law school to be able to do.
It is helpful to have gone tostudy law and to be a licensed
lawyer, but there's, there arevarious elements of legal work
that even somebody with acollege degree can engage in.
(51:15):
So refugees, often they, whenthey come, they often still have
some family members that areabroad.
So one of the first points ontheir wish list once they have
permanent residency in theUnited States is often to
petition for family reunion, areunification to, to bring some
(51:37):
of their family members to, tobe with them and live with them
too.
So, yeah, so there's there'slegal work in going through the
different steps to gainpermanent residency and then
eventually, with time,citizenship too, but also then
family reunification, which is,yeah, the top priority typically
for for people to, because theyof course want their, want
their family to be together.
(51:59):
So, yeah, all those types ofthings are things that you know,
somebody who would volunteerfor a refugee resettlement
agency or work for one as anemployee, that they could get
certified by the Department ofJustice.
There's a Board of ImmigrationAppeals it's called that has has
different procedures in whichthey they can certify you.
(52:20):
You've learned enough in thatfield to be able to to help fill
out the forms for the refugeesand then, certainly, when people
so, as part of those thoseapplications, they usually do
need to rehearse their, theirstory on account of what, what
caused their, their flight fromtheir home country and how they
qualify for, for refugee status.
(52:42):
So that often also requireshelp from translators to be able
to go through in detail nowtheir story and also their,
their, the story of the familymembers that are still need to
come.
So so translation capabilitiesare also of of high, high need
(53:03):
and high, high value.
So of course, that's alsoreason for a Christian to learn
modern languages.
Zack Johnson (53:12):
And is that?
How long does that certificate?
How long does it take to getthat certification?
Hans Leaman (53:19):
Oh, I'm not sure.
Actually off off hands, no, andwhat, what?
Zack Johnson (53:24):
where can we, where can people find out more
about that?
I?
Hans Leaman (53:27):
think the website of the the border immigration
appeals would I'm sure wouldwould give details.
So that would be under thedepartment of justice.
Zack Johnson (53:36):
And are there any?
And if you get connected to a,a refugee resettlement agency,
they might have some of thoseresources.
So, yeah, yes, appointing toyeah.
Hans Leaman (53:50):
So I've been through that process, right, and
there's, there's a websitecalled refworld that has a great
database for all things relatedto the legal needs of of
refugees, right?
No, that's, that's a huge, hugeconsolidation of of useful
sources.
Zack Johnson (54:07):
Right, there might be some competition to the
answer to my next question.
What's the most compellingmodern language to your to learn
as?
A native English speaker fromthe US.
Right now, I know what youwould say.
Hans Leaman (54:22):
Well, yeah, I mean, I certainly think Spanish is is
the most useful not not frompersonal experience, because I
still need to learn it, but yeah, we have the you know, an
increasing number of people who,who, whose families, speak
Spanish at home.
And then, yeah, the the highestnumber of people who are
seeking to find settlements inthe US are are the highest
(54:47):
proportion there's in Spanishspeakers.
Zack Johnson (54:50):
Graham, what would you say to that question?
I'd have to say Dari becausethat's what I'm trying to learn.
Hans Leaman (54:57):
Yes, Well, that I mean certainly.
Yeah, I wouldn't deny that.
No, it doesn't deny the otherone, the language.
They're all.
All we need somebody to tolearn all of them.
Zack Johnson (55:06):
And then is there is there any?
Are there any resources thatyou regularly visit that you
might share with the audience tosay, hey, this, it's really
interesting.
Check out this resource.
It's a broad talk category ofbooks, articles, publications,
podcasts, anything that youregularly frequent.
Hans Leaman (55:27):
Um I do means in my my history studies or in life
in general.
Refugee work yeah, it's hard tohard to narrow things down.
Well, I would say I've got acouple of different publications
(55:48):
that I especially like to lookat when I have some free time
that do often give me good ideasfor teaching and for thinking
about, say, the Western canon.
So first things is yeah, a greatjournal that's yeah, has a
(56:09):
strong interest in maintainingwhat you might say is the
prominence of traditionalChristian morality in American
society and in Western societyat large.
And so they're yeah, they'reinterested in reflecting upon
classic texts and what we canstill learn from them.
(56:29):
Then there's Plough Magazinethat I really love, that's
produced by the Bruderhoffs.
That will bring in plenty moredevotional literature that I
appreciate and remind me ofwonderful texts that I might
have read in my younger yearsbut haven't read recently and
(56:50):
give cause to reflect upon themagain and cover all kinds of
important ethical issues thatChristians need to mull over and
challenge ourselves with.
So those are my two topmagazine recommendations.
Yeah, so the, I think for myhistory studies and preparing
(57:14):
myself to be a teacher ofdifferent historical topics in
general, I actually find it veryuseful to read the most
respected history journals ofthe field.
So, yeah, there's, yeah, great,great number of them, but they
(57:35):
would often be, you know, in thedatabases that our students
have access to as collegestudents.
But from my field in particular, I focus on the Reformation for
my dissertation and my PhD workin general.
So the 16th century journalfocuses on that period and
that's one I try to keep up with.
(57:57):
And then there's a journal onReformation Studies that's
published by Germans, so it'sgot a German name, but it's the
Archive for Reformation History.
Zack Johnson (58:07):
Is it published in German?
Hans Leaman (58:10):
Some articles are in German, some are in English.
Yeah, so those are twoimportant journals that I try to
keep up with, but then there's,yeah, plenty of other journals
that are published by theAmerican Historical Association
or their magazine that give goodtips for just teaching about
(58:30):
history, and yeah will alsoinclude important, yeah kind of
pathbreaking articles in variousfields, not just American
history.
Zack Johnson (58:40):
Great, and do you give books to people?
Yeah, I feel like that's aclassic.
Yeah, so what's one of thebooks that you have most gifted
to people?
That's like the classic, okaythis might be surprising.
Hans Leaman (58:55):
I think I do know the book that I probably have
bought for people most often andthat's Augustine's Confession,
which is on our syllabus in thehumanities classes, and I really
think it was life-changing forme to read that book and I think
a lot of people have anemotional reaction to reading it
(59:20):
, because you have an example ofa early Christian theologian
who's quite distant from us, youknow, culturally right, he's
got very different circumstances, but there's so much that still
resonates with the longingsthat we have as we come into our
(59:42):
teenage years and then tryingto sort out what direction to go
in life professionally.
And Augustine made thosedecisions at that stage of life.
Apart from Christ was anincorporating advice and wisdom
he got from his mother, who wasa Christian at that point but
then, you know, realized it'sstill at a young enough age, as
(01:00:06):
a youngish adult, the wisdom ofwhat his mother taught him and
has a homecoming of his own, youmight say, and yeah, accepts
Christ as his savior and then isreadily welcomed into church
(01:00:27):
leadership positions as peoplenotice the talents that he had
forged.
So it's a story of redeeminglost time in some ways, but also
putting to use the things thatwe can use, that we learn, you
know, even when we might nothave had.
You know God is our goal forthem, but then God got making
(01:00:48):
use of them in the end.
Zack Johnson (01:00:49):
So it's like the story of my life.
Hans Leaman (01:00:53):
So yeah, I think it's a great.
You know we don't have.
People usually find thatreading biographies is the type
of history that they find mostuseful, because you can kind of
pattern your life afterdecisions that you see other
people making that you admire.
But yeah, then an autobiographytakes it to a new level where
(01:01:17):
you can see you know theindividual person writing about
their own struggles.
You know first person, and sowhen they relate to you
emotionally, then it's not justabout you know what can I do to
be successful and then emulatesomebody in that regard, but
what can I do to be a betterperson and feel like a whole
(01:01:38):
other person as we look at thestruggles that other people
might have had internally?
Zack Johnson (01:01:43):
Okay, I kind of want to ask what number two
would be now.
Is there another one that comesto the top of your mind?
Because that one can't quit.
Hans Leaman (01:02:01):
Let's see, I can't think of what I've given more
often, but I really like Tolstoyas an author and so I know I've
given some books by Tolstoyaway, like usually his again
more the autobiographical kindsof works, like he's got one
that's called Confessions abouthimself, but then there's some
(01:02:22):
short stories that I think are alittle bit closer to home as
far as things that he wentthrough, as he also went from
kind of having a profligateyouth to a man of greater
spiritual intensity anddiscernment.
Zack Johnson (01:02:40):
And then I usually finish out with a question do
you have any other passionprojects that you're working on
that I missed?
It can span from hobbies toother passions that we might not
know about.
Hans Leaman (01:02:56):
Well, I have three kids now, so most of my hobbies
revolve around their interests.
And yeah, surprisingly I wasn'ta very athletic child by any
means.
My parents made me play LittleLeague Soccer for a year or two,
of course you did, but I wasmore interested in music and
(01:03:19):
always loved being part ofchoirs or helping to the church
life through music.
So that's always been my kindof side, my extracurricular.
At any schools I was at that, Iwas usually part of some sort of
a singing group, and yeah, Ilearned how to play piano at a
(01:03:41):
young age, so I enjoy sittingdown and doing that.
So my children are learningmusic.
But what they love more tospend their time on is sports,
and so they've gotten me moreinto outside, set the books down
and kick soccer ball with them,or have them team up against me
my hobbies are my children.
Zack Johnson (01:04:03):
I'm listening with that.
Well, thanks so much forjoining us.
I learned a lot and if you wantto follow your work, I think
you can find Hans's info on ourwebsite and things like that Any
other way to sort of find whatyou've done?
Or do you have an onlinepresence at all?
I don't know.
Hans Leaman (01:04:24):
No, not much.
I'm kind of averse.
I understand Social media.
I'm the same.
I'm in the same place.
Zack Johnson (01:04:30):
And for our audience.
Graham, you'll have to helpwith any other announcements,
but we did announce thatEntrustment is live.
It went on our websiteyesterday where every single
student gets a fully fundedoffer to come to Seattle or
release her tuition.
We're still charging for roomand board and, hans, I want to
(01:04:51):
praise you for that.
You actually sent an originalemail that pointed me in, I
think, a really digestible wayto go about thinking about that.
So thank you for that.
That watch is 2024, january2024.
So if you're interested incoming, to.
Seattle or Entrust is in historyand the humanities.
There's no better place tostudy.
(01:05:13):
I'm just kidding.
So thank you so much Anythingthat I missed Anything else,
hans, no, all right, thank you,thank you, thank you.
It is November 30th and I'm here with Dr Hans
Lehmann.
Is it okay if I just call youHans?
It's okay, certainly.
So I usually start by reading abio and then I ask you if you
have anything to add or subtractfrom what's written on the bio
online, and then we'll go fromthere.
Sound good?
Sure, all right.
Hans Lehmann received his ABfrom Princeton University, jd
(00:30):
from Yale Law School and a PhDfrom Yale University's History
Department and RenaissanceStudies Program.
He comes most recently from theMax Planck Institute of
Religious and Ethnic Diversityin Getting in Germany.
Good, where he worked as apostdoctoral research fellow in
the Ethics, law and PoliticsDepartment.
(00:51):
He also taught for two years atYale University as a
postdoctoral associate in theIntegrated Humanities,
developing InterdisciplinaryCourses on Refugee Studies,
religion and Human Rights andthe History of Educational
Thought.
Prior to completing his PhD, hepracticed law with an
international firm in WashingtonDC.
(01:13):
Before I keep going, anythingto add or subtract from there.
Hans Leaman (01:18):
Well, I hope there's nothing to subtract.
This is all truthful, but yeah,certainly I could add more
about my life before and besidesstudying, right.
Zack Johnson (01:29):
I'll read what's written next, but just quick AB.
What does AB from Princetonstand for?
Hans Leaman (01:34):
That's just the same as BA, but they award it as
a Latin degree, so it's.
Zack Johnson (01:42):
Got it, put it around and JD.
Hans Leaman (01:45):
That stands for Latin II, juris Doctor, so a
doctor of law.
Zack Johnson (01:52):
Yeah, we want to lack Latin acronyms.
That sounds good and then I'llkeep going here.
Hans is especially interestedin the role that religion plays
in the community, formation andintegration of immigrant groups.
His exam in courts construal ofreligious persecution and
religious freedom in refugee lawand human rights law, and he
wrote his dissertation onconsolation literature that
(02:15):
Reformation era Lutheran andAnabaptist passives wrote to
encourage their confessionalbrethren when they faced exile
on account of religiousnonconformity.
As an attorney he also workedpro bono on behalf of
contemporary refugees and asylumseekers in Washington DC and
Connecticut.
He grew up in Lancaster, countyPennsylvania, and is always
(02:37):
grateful to return for the freshproduce, Hemsings and sunsets
over the farmland.
That resonated with me becausemy wife is now from Lancaster
and I also work with it.
Thank you so much for beinghere, Hans.
Thanks for inviting me.
Yeah, well, I thought we couldjust start by me asking you
about your life a little bit andhow you can probably add before
(02:59):
, during and after the bio there.
I'd love to hear just whereyou're from, some of even why
you chose to go to some of theplaces you went, and how did you
land here at Sattler and you'rekind of all over the map.
So there's a lot to talk aboutSure sure?
Hans Leaman (03:16):
Yeah, well, I would say that when I ended up
focusing in for my studies incollege and graduate school had
a lot to do with where I didgrow up, so in Lancaster, county
Pennsylvania.
It's a place that was settledby a lot of folks with
Anabaptist background comingthere from Switzerland or
Germany in the 1700s becauseWilliam Penn had made
(03:40):
Pennsylvania a colony that wasgoing to respect religious
freedom for the residents thereand then they could practice
their faith, which was unpopularin Europe, freely.
And many of the my ancestorswere many of the Mennonites, or
some of them German Reformed,who might have come for other
reasons to Pennsylvania, but theMennonites brought with them a
(04:06):
book that told the stories oftheir martyrs from the early
period of the Anabaptistmovements, when quite a few went
to the stake on account oftheir nonconformity of their
religious beliefs, and they wereusually given opportunities to
renounce those beliefs but saidthey were remain true to their
(04:28):
faith, their conscience, whetherdeath comes or not.
And what's the name of that?
Yeah, that book is called theMartyr's Mirror or the Bloody
Theater of the DefenselessChristians it was the longer
title and my parents had a copyof that when I was young in our
house and at a very young age Ithink I was in first grade when
(04:50):
I was paging through and ithappens to have some
illustrations, so I didn'tunderstand all the text for sure
and probably didn't read awhole lot of it, but I could
look at the pictures and theycaptivated me.
I had pictures.
It ties the Anabaptist martyrsto the martyrs of the early
church, so I had pictures,images of early Christian
martyrs and with a backdrop ofRome.
(05:12):
But then it also had images ofthose in 16th century Germany or
Switzerland, and so theyfascinated me because I saw
people filled with conviction orthose who were still trying to
testify to their faith to thelast moments that they could to
tell people why they were soconvinced of what they see in
(05:35):
the scriptures that it's willingto give up their lives for that
sake, for the sake of Christ.
So that always stuck with me asan inspiration.
When I read Hebrews 11 of theCloud of Witnesses, I could
think of those types of imagestoo, and extends Paul's concept
of the people of God as goingfrom the Old Testament up
(05:57):
through then Christian history.
And when it came time to figureout what I wanted to study in
school, I thought, yeah, I'dlike to study especially people
like that, who are worthremembering and retelling their
stories so they're not forgotten, but also then to explore the
period in which that book wasmade and to understand the types
(06:20):
of people who are trying tocompile those stories in their
own lifetimes and form aidentity for a congregation of
believers.
So that's why I focused on theReformation and have always been
interested in how Christiansform community and try to hold
(06:40):
it together despite all kinds ofsocial pressures from outside
that would try to make it seemimpractical to hold to tight
community such as Christianspractice.
So, yeah, I've always beeninterested in exploring the
dynamics of successful Christiancommunities, as well as
(07:01):
understanding the dynamics thatare challenges and having them
too, and then for people whodon't know about the martyrs
mirror I know our audience.
Zack Johnson (07:14):
Some of them may or may not have run into that.
I have a copy and it's on ourbookshelf too.
It's what's the best way to getyour hands on a copy of the
martyrs mirror.
Is this somewhere online?
Hans Leaman (07:27):
There is a free edition online that's an English
translation and it does include, I think you can click on each
of the illustrations too, but itis still published, I believe,
by Harold Press, maybe.
Zack Johnson (07:42):
And from what I understand, somebody's gonna
have to correct me, but theillustrations in the martyrs
mirror were done by carving.
Hans Leaman (07:50):
Yeah.
Copper plate etchings yeah.
So I don't know how long ittakes to make a beautiful
etching like that I've etched ina long time.
But yeah, I believe some of theoriginal copper plates still
exist.
Zack Johnson (08:04):
Every time I open it, I love looking through the
illustrations.
I mean, the content of them isheart-wrenching right.
I think they're worth lookingthrough themselves.
And then the one that I bumpinto most often is the Is Dirk
Willems?
Is that a martyr's mirror, or?
Hans Leaman (08:25):
is he's rescuing a man who's fallen into a frozen
river, Right?
Zack Johnson (08:29):
I think that might be one of the more popular
etchings from yeah, probably themost popular.
I bumped into it.
I was just in a businessman'soffice and I was hanging on the
wall in there.
So tell me, why did you choosePrinceton?
I'm assuming?
Hans Leaman (08:49):
Well, sadler College didn't exist.
Yeah, besides, right, yeah,it's a good question, because I
have two older siblings who weredefinitely influential in my
life and people I looked up toand tried to follow in their
path.
Often they both went toChristian colleges, to Messiah
College in particular, andPennsylvania, which was just
(09:09):
about an hour from our home.
So, yeah, to a school wherethere had been plenty of people
that they also knew, friendspeople.
A good number would always gofrom my high school there.
So, yeah, it would have been anatural path for me to follow.
My brother by that point hadgone on from Messiah College to
(09:32):
law school and he loved thoseyears of law school and met a
lot of interesting people.
And he encouraged me when I wasa senior to apply to at least
one school where the odds ofgetting in, getting admitted are
small and see what happens.
(09:52):
And the school that he got areally good impression of from
some of the friends he had inlaw school was Princeton.
He knew a couple who had gonethere and they seemed to say
that they loved their collegeexperience more than many other
students they got to know whowere at schools that also had a
(10:14):
reputation to be especiallychallenging and that also
happened to be a school that'snot too far from home as well
that was only two hours fromhome.
So I applied to Princeton andso just thought give it a shot.
But also applied to Messiah andother schools that I thought
were more likely but that theyhave early decision as a
(10:39):
possibility for the admissions.
So yeah, technically, if you'readmitted under that, then
you're expected to come.
You're kind of obligatingyourself to come, and I had
applied to Princeton first, thenthrough that program, and
didn't expect to get in.
Little did I know about theprocess but I thought, yeah,
maybe it'll boost my chances inthe regular admissions season.
(11:02):
I didn't know at that pointthat if you're rejected for
early decision, you're probablyrejected for the regular too.
But yeah, I got an acceptanceletter, I think the day before
my birthday, remember.
So yeah.
So then I had to go to myparents and say I think I might
have just obligated us to maybego to Princeton.
(11:24):
Then my dad asked how much isthis going to cost?
But no, my parents were verysupportive and they made it
possible to attend.
Zack Johnson (11:35):
And then the hop from Princeton to Yale.
Did you do anything in betweenthose two, or was it direct?
Hans Leaman (11:47):
Yeah, no, I went straight from graduating in the
spring to starting graduateschool the next fall.
Yeah, so it serves that I waskind of, by that point, really
excited about studying historyand yeah, I do have really great
professors in college to thankfor that.
I had one advisor my junioryear named Peter Brown, who
studies a lot of early churchhistory.
(12:10):
He wrote a wonderful biographyof Augustine that's just a
delight to read.
And then I had another advisornamed Anthony Grafton from my
senior project, my senior thesis, and so they were both a very
helpful one, helping me preparefor applications straight away
(12:30):
and do many people do JD and PhD?
Zack Johnson (12:34):
Were those simultaneous or it's not a
common combination?
So I'd love to hear about whyyou chose those two.
Hans Leaman (12:44):
Right.
So when I was deciding to applyto history grad schools, the
other option was to apply to lawschools.
One reason my brother reallyloved it and loved the
profession of law once he waspracticing and I was always
interested, especially in as faras subject matters, especially
(13:04):
political philosophy and thehistory of ideas, and I thought,
well, yeah, I don't know if Ishould, maybe you know if law
school would be the better placeto study than history grad
school.
But I decided by senior yearthat now would I, would I really
love.
My first love is history andyeah, I think I would like to
teach it to.
But after two years of being inmy history program I did
(13:30):
recognize that there are a lotof really talented students who
are graduating with history PhDsand there are more of them than
there are open historypositions to teach at colleges.
So PhD students need to havesome sort of backup plan if they
can't find a teaching job rightaway.
So yeah, I thought on thepractical side I should have a
(13:55):
plan B, but also to fuse it withmy history studies.
I also came back to my stronginterest in political philosophy
and I was also doing a projectfor one of my classes that
brought me into legal historyand I was really enjoying that.
So I thought, well, maybe lawschool will be a good fusion of
(14:16):
my pairing that with my PhD.
It'll actually be somethingthat prepares me well to teach
on a broader spectrum ofsubjects.
So I did go into practice afterlaw school, for a number of
reasons.
One, just to see what theprofession is like, of course.
(14:37):
But I still always thought ofmyself as probably enjoying
teaching the most.
And yeah, after a couple ofyears of practice, which I did
immensely enjoy, had a wonderfullaw firm to practice at, I did
decide, at the same time asdeciding to get married to a
current PhD student, that wouldbe a good transition point to
(14:58):
head back and finish thedissertation.
And yeah, I kind of put my eggsin the history basket.
Zack Johnson (15:05):
How long was it the PhD?
I'm just curious.
Hans Leaman (15:09):
So studying European history involves
learning languages.
So a typical I think an idealpath would typically be seven
years.
It took me eight to do my thehistory PhD side of things.
Zack Johnson (15:25):
Is that eight years of grueling work, or is it
sort of elongated?
I'm just curious how, what lifelooks like during those years.
Hans Leaman (15:35):
Most PhD programs, at least in the humanities, they
start with two years ofcoursework, so you're taking
classes like you would incollege.
Then your third year, you studyfor what they call
comprehensive exams.
So you read a lot for a schoolyear and then at the end of that
school year then you comebefore a panel of professors who
(15:56):
will ask you questions aboutwhat you read.
Zack Johnson (15:59):
Like literally reading books, not the.
Hans Leaman (16:01):
There's no really important books in your field,
so getting a sense of what theliterature is in your field.
So for me, of course, then Iwas reading all the regardless,
the most important scholarlyworks on the Reformation, from
the 20th century and early 21stcentury and the Middle Ages, the
Renaissance, and I had coveredanother field of Renaissance
(16:27):
arts and architecture, so thingsthat would all help to be able
to, you know, be able to respondto students' questions.
So when the time comes, whenthe student asks you, you know,
for a good reading list, whenthey're trying to write a paper
that you'd have, you know, agood store of in your memory, of
classic works to recommend tostudents.
Zack Johnson (16:46):
Okay, I'll take, I'll ask a little, gonna take a
little bit of a turn here.
I know a lot of people, a lotof Christians in particular,
interested in refugee work, workwith asylum seekers, and it
(17:06):
feels like a met, a really bigworld right now.
Would you mind just talking alittle bit about your interest
in that field and what you didin your work as an attorney, and
then maybe even some any adviceto your average, your average
person that's interested inthose, those, those issues and
(17:28):
how, what you would recommendthem reading or preparing for or
just positioning themselves ingeneral to help out?
Hans Leaman (17:37):
Yeah, well, I mean, we have the the good fortune to
be living in a country that isa destination for many migrants.
So the world is, you know,coming to us from from many
different backgrounds, culturaland religious backgrounds.
So it's a wonderful opportunityfor for ministry and to helping
(17:57):
people to feel a sense of homewhen they come to a new land.
So having many, many refugeesanother immigrant say that the
the biggest source of relief forthem or a source of
encouragement, hope for thefuture when they're in a new
land, is when they feel likethey've finally made a friend of
(18:20):
, of somebody who's a native ofthat new country, that they have
a have, somebody that theycould, you know, call up or
visit at their home andexperience, you know,
hospitality, and that theywouldn't feel like they're being
treated as as a stranger, orrather as a friend.
So, yeah, to have Christianswho are simply willing to seek
(18:42):
out and interact and treat ascolleagues and friends newcomers
is makes a huge difference intheir lives.
So, you know, people don't haveto think about it necessarily
as serving as providing somesort of material aid.
I mean, those things are allhelpful, but ultimately, yeah,
(19:03):
friendship is usually whatpeople say that they are they
are most eagerly seeking.
So that's something that we canall do.
For sure, there are particularlegal needs that refugees often
do need once they arrive.
So people who are designated asrefugees and arrive at the US
as refugees usually have somesort of advanced legal work
(19:25):
that's been done for them andthat they went through the
process of being interviewedintensively by State Department
officials to verify, you know,their backgrounds and their
qualifications under theinternational law of definition
of a refugee and the UnitedStates has chosen them as
privileged few out of the manypeople who would love to get
(19:47):
that status and be reset withthe United States.
They're being, you know,they're the ones who have been
chosen to come.
But still, once they arrive,it's a pretty short clock in
which they receive benefits fromthe government.
They need to find a job withinsix months and start being able
to support themselves.
(20:07):
And, of course, to find a job inthe United States is always
complicated by matters oftransportation.
Right, we don't have greattransportation, probably
transportation like in Europe,where you might live somewhere
and be able to get across towneasily, you know, by trains,
tram cars or buses.
So one of the prime ways thatpeople could also help refugees
(20:32):
in that first struggle to find ajob that will work for their
family is to help providetransportation.
Is that like People do that asdrivers Just drivers For them
right?
Because usually they can't?
Many people coming fromdeveloping countries haven't had
the experience of ever drivingbefore.
(20:52):
They didn't take drivinglessons.
So that's something thatthey'll do eventually in the US
typically, but it takes time.
It takes more time than whenthey need to find a job
themselves.
Zack Johnson (21:03):
Are there organizations that facilitate
those partnerships that youmight point people to?
I know it might be.
Hans Leaman (21:10):
Right?
So certainly so, when the waythe US handles their refugee
resettlement work, is they?
There are a number of differentorganizations that are
privately run, but they receivecontracts from the US government
to help resettle them, and sothere'll be organizations like
ChurchWorld Service or theInternational Refugee Committee,
(21:34):
and they will have staff andlocal communities who meet them
when they arrive, certainly, andthen work with other
organizations to find housingfor them, and churches will
sponsor a family and find anapartment before they arrive
that will work for the size ofthe family.
(21:55):
And yeah, then there's refugeeresettlement agencies, there's
voluntary agencies.
They try to coordinate peoplewho will help volunteer to drive
the folks to work and then justbe resource people, for Also,
plenty of medical appointmentsare necessary so they can be
(22:15):
drivers to those appointmentsthat just guide them through all
the different institutions thatseem for voting to newcomers.
So, of course, navigating ourmedical system is confounding to
people Donting.
So yeah.
Zack Johnson (22:32):
I'm gonna ask a little bit more of a Maybe not a
controversial question, but Ihope I'll just get your thoughts
on it.
So in the Christian world youmentioned, one of the greatest
things is developing afriendship with someone.
I love that answer.
Do you have any advice?
On some of the circles I hangout in, there's sort of an
(22:53):
evangelistic pressure that isattached to the friendship and
there's sort of like a hey,ultimately you wanna befriend
someone so that you can presenta gospel message at some point
in time.
Is that?
Do you think that'smanipulative?
(23:14):
Is it okay to think about that?
Any guiding principles that youmight have heard about just how
to think about that?
As a Christian who loves totalk about Christ and his ways
versus trying, what are yourtrue motivations?
Is it friendship or is itevangelism?
Is it okay to have dualmotivations?
(23:35):
I mean there's not a simplesolution to that, but I'd love
to hear your thoughts.
Hans Leaman (23:40):
Yeah, well, I think we could make a distinction
between our motivations and ourunderstanding of the other
person's situation, and I thinkthat would be a good way to
navigate the question.
So we can't deny what we aremotivated by and to be honest
(24:07):
about our sense of personhoodand what inspires us to act.
We should include that we aremotivated by the gospel as
Christians, but there areappropriate times to share
(24:27):
matters of religion with otherpeople and inappropriate times,
I think, because religiondoesn't involve just a cerebral
confession of faith.
It also involves a sense ofcommunity, and we want to be
(24:52):
able to talk about how, when weshare our faith, how it makes a
difference in how we live outour lives, that we have a
relationship with God that we'vegained by placing faith and
Christ's redemption of us.
But it also has a horizontaldimension too, that we share it
with other people and that itdraws us into community of
(25:14):
investment with other people whobelieve likewise, and that we
want to encourage their faithand discipleship too.
So inviting somebody into thatrelationship with God is also we
have to be aware of what itmeans culturally for them and
the community that they would besurrounded by too.
It means, I think it would beto invite somebody into that in
(25:43):
a moment when they areespecially vulnerable and at a
loss of the community that theyhave treasured in their lives so
far and that helped to formthem and gave them a sense of
identity, to seize upon a momentthat they're especially
vulnerable and feeling a loss ofthat when they've migrated from
(26:06):
their home culture to anAmerican one.
I think that would not be theright timing to present the full
gospel message.
But we live out the gospelthrough our love of neighbor.
Zack Johnson (26:21):
So if you're driving someone to work, don't
give them the gospelpresentation If they don't take
it close to door on them.
I'm just kidding.
Hans Leaman (26:30):
Certainly, there are plenty of people who migrate
out of discontentment withtheir current situation too.
Some people might have becomerefugees on account of their
nonconformity, that they'vemaybe fled their family
circumstance because they wantto be, they're curious about a
new faith and maybe they arecurious about Christianity, and
(26:51):
so there might be instances whenyou, as a driver, then
encounter you're talking andthey, a recently migrated person
, will ask questions about whatmotivates you.
Then, of course, that would beappropriate, shows their
curiosity.
But, yeah, I would say thatit's something that we would get
(27:12):
a sense of when is a goodopportunity only after we've
established a sufficiently deeprelationship with the other
person.
So, yeah, so I think thefriendship would need to come
first.
Zack Johnson (27:23):
Yeah, I actually really.
That was really helpful.
And do you have any other anyother thoughts on an appropriate
versus inappropriatecircumstances?
I know any other analogies orexamples that come to your mind.
I'm just curious.
Hans Leaman (27:40):
If not, I think that Well, it's always a golden
rule always ask us to putourselves in the other person's
shoes, right?
So I always I feel empatheticwith people who, who.
So studies often show thatimmigrants actually often come
(28:04):
back to a greater appreciationof their faith once they are in
a new culture, right?
So, and I think that makessense when I think about myself,
when I have lived outside of myhome community, for me, I've
usually been in Europe where thepopulation is, at large, not as
(28:26):
not participating in churchlife as much as those around me
in the United States are.
That, yeah, I sense that andfeel, you know, that I'm in a
minority, right, so I canidentify with somebody who has,
who might be coming from acultural background or from a
faith that's different thanwhat's predominant, than the
(28:49):
Christianity that's predominantin the United States.
Right, and so I can, from myexperience being abroad, that I
kind of know what they theymight be going through
recognizing.
Okay, I'm a minority.
Now, and when I've been inEurope, it's very refreshing for
me, devotionally, and that itdoes cause me to be more
contemplative.
Yeah, I'm not.
(29:10):
As typically, as you know, Idon't have as many people to
talk with.
You know, I don't have as manyfriends there as I do here.
So yeah, then I have more timeto engage in devotional
practices and many people mightvery well be doing that with
their, their faith.
That's what Muslim person orHindu person they might be
(29:33):
appreciating more and more.
You know in now that they're aminority in America appreciating
more about their faith andreflecting more upon that.
So if we we can kind of expectthat they might be going through
that greater and greaterappreciation of their faith, it
(29:54):
might be interesting as aconversation to talk about.
You know what has beenformative for us?
When have we also come to agreater appreciation of our
faith, of Christianity?
What moments did we feel likeit wasn't as guiding us as
intently day to day?
And then when did we come backto make it more of a guide for
(30:17):
us day to day?
And that might be cause forthem to examine, you know, how
they're relating to their faithat the moment and admire
something about your faith.
Zack Johnson (30:28):
Right, I want to ask one more question, then
we'll go on to another one.
But what in your mind?
This is more of a practicalquestion, but in order to set
yourself up for some of thesemeaningful conversations, my
guess is there's like some sortof you don't just happen to have
that conversation with somebodyin the first encounter you have
(30:51):
with them.
And so what are some simplelike cross-cultural bridges that
allow for cross-culturalfriendships?
I mean, the obvious ones thatcome to my mind are languages,
and being able to communicate inmother tongues is important.
But then there's hospitalityhospitality tricks and tips.
(31:15):
Do you have anything that youfound in your own life that sort
of helps bridge some of thecultural gaps that might exist,
that you kind of can find commonground in?
Hans Leaman (31:27):
Yeah, well, certainly, people are really
appreciative when you show aninterest in their culture, right
, and the history of the peoplethat they're coming from, the
country that they're coming from.
So this is actually a point, amotivating point for me to study
and teach history, and that Ihope that most of our students,
(31:47):
as a Sattler, come away with asense of confidence that when
they meet somebody for adifferent culture, that they
have an idea of how they couldrelate to them, they have a
broad enough knowledge ofdifferent cultures, that they
have a few conversational itemsthat they could talk about, that
they would you know a leader inthe person's home country and
(32:10):
in this history, that you couldsay something about them.
And people will typically bevery impressed, right, they
don't expect Americans to knowmuch about history.
Zack Johnson (32:20):
I think a capital city can go a long way yeah.
Hans Leaman (32:23):
But yeah, so just showing, doing a little enough
study to show that youunderstand some of the big
social changes that their homecountry went through.
Of course, to understand thedynamics that might have caused
them to have left their homecountry, of course, would be
especially appreciated,especially when you're dealing
(32:46):
with refugees.
Many have gone throughtraumatic circumstances that
they usually when they'reidentified as refugees and
resettled in the United States.
They have spent a good numberof years in a refugee camp
already.
So they fled their home region,found safety at a UN
administered refugee camp andthen had a long period of
(33:09):
waiting there.
Right, sometimes, you know, thecamps are not incredibly
desirable places to live longterm.
So they fled something, youknow, that compelled them to
leave and had there for sure toseek safety, so they were
fleeing violence.
But then the refugee camps canalso be very difficult places
where there sometimes isviolence.
(33:29):
You know, when you gather a lotof people who have experienced
traumatic circumstances and theyget frustrated with just being
stuck in one location for awhile, yeah, there can be a lot
of difficulties that they'vegone through recently, so they
might not want to talk aboutthat Like they're happy to.
You know, put that behind themfor a while.
Eventually, maybe after years,they wouldn't want to tell their
(33:51):
story right, but they mightlove to talk more about, you
know, what are the underlyingpolitical circumstances that led
to the, the, the strife thatthey ended up fleeing from, or
what are some of the solutionsthey would have in mind.
What would they love to seechange in their home country in
order to restore peace to theirland, make it possible for them
to go back, right?
(34:12):
So, yeah, so I think peopleappreciate that type of
engagement.
So that takes a little workthere, probably the work you
might say, or reading, but, yeah, on a more impromptu basis,
yeah, certainly, people love totalk about their food.
So hospitality and gives youthat opportunity, you know you
might serve what.
(34:33):
You know how to cook, right,but you can talk about you know,
then, traditions, things thatyou associate with your foods
when you're, when you're hostingsomebody, and then ask them
about data, the types of foodsthat they might associate with
various traditions, and thenthat conversation would lead to
you know one of the mainholidays or festivals that have
given you a sense of, you know,family and community, and then
(34:56):
it can lead from from from that,to learning more about, indeed,
their family members, some ofwhich might not be with them
right anymore, or, or, yeah,what they, what they appreciated
about their, their homecommunities, and what they're,
what they're experiencing, thatthat's different here in the US,
right then, once you hear whatthey're, what they know is
different, or what they'restruggling with, then you have a
(35:16):
better sense of how you can canbe of assistance.
Zack Johnson (35:20):
Well, I guess that presents a really compelling
reason to study history, to beable to connect with, with
people from different cultures.
And I guess this will lead meinto just talking about you.
You've said you enjoy teachingand you enjoy the classroom.
I'd love to hear about what aresome of the classes that you
(35:43):
have taught in the past, eachnow, and is there one that
you're has your heart or thatyou're more passionate about
that others than any?
Any former funk, any capacity?
Hans Leaman (35:57):
Well, I have been the, the main faculty member who
crafted the curriculum for ourthree course sequence of
humanities, classes that takestudents from ancient Greece to
the cusp of the 20th century,just reading great texts that
(36:18):
have been especially influentialin Western civilization.
Now, so we don't spend timereading history books about
ancient Greece, ancient Rome,about the Middle Ages,
renaissance and Reformation, butwe just simply read the
writings of authors who havewritten some of the texts that
(36:39):
made the that had the mostinfluence in their day or have
had the most influence over overtime, over centuries.
And, of course, love engagingwith those texts because they
they pose timeless questions, soones that have been studied at
universities for centuries, ofcourse, and ones that still
(36:59):
present questions that, yeah, weall I think all college
students come, come into schoolyou know grappling with, and
usually we don't havesatisfactory answers that we can
come to within our class time.
But they provide issues thatstudents can know that they can
continue to grapple with andstart filling in, you know holes
(37:23):
that they.
They sense from those classes,as they take more and more
classes in their in their upperclassman years at the college,
that they have a good number ofreference points.
Right, they can start to fit in.
When they read a 20th centurytheologian, they can say, oh,
okay, I can see where he'sinfluenced by these reformers.
Or I can see where he's goingback to some something that we
(37:46):
saw in early church theologiansor medieval theologians and
trying to revive something thatthey appreciated about church
life in the past.
Or, yeah, I can see where thisperson is.
Even the 20th century is kindof reviving the stoicism.
Or or, yes, yeah, other ancientsets of value systems.
Zack Johnson (38:06):
So I wanted to link this.
I think there's a humanitiesreading list on our website that
goes I think it's probablypretty, pretty fresh, and it has
a list of some of the worksthat people go through in.
That is that the three coreseries and when I I feel like
(38:32):
the list is pretty long.
Do students make their waythrough all of these books here
while they're here, or is thatexcerpts of them?
Hans Leaman (38:43):
Yes, All those authors on the page they can see
at the Satellar Humanity pageare ones that we read.
Not all of them do we read theentire works.
Many of them we have to becontent with with excerpts.
But we do read usually lengthyexcerpts that are at least 25 to
(39:05):
50 pages, so we get a goodsense of the substance of the
author's argument.
Zack Johnson (39:12):
And so is there a.
There's a long list here so Ican't go through all of them,
but is there a particular workon this list that students tend
to kind of gravitate more likelight up and engage with more
than others?
Some of them I know areimportant but thick to work
through.
I had to work through theacidities in my undergrad and
things like, and it's some ofthe texts are harder to engage
(39:34):
with.
But maybe I'm just asking wheredo you on this list, where
would you start if you are acertain audience member not
engaged in the humanities?
That's a hard question.
Hans Leaman (39:47):
Students really enjoy our first reading,
although I don't know if that'swhere I would say guide people
to immediately, but we start outthe course on the ancient world
reading the Odyssey by Homer,so one of the.
We only have time for one ofthe two great epics by Homer,
and so I chose Odyssey becauseit's a story of homecoming and I
(40:11):
think it resonates with collegestudents' experiences, you know
, being away from home.
So story of homecoming forOdysseus.
But it's also a story of cominginto, growing into one's
identity and having appreciationof their family inheritance.
For Odysseus's son, who goesout in search of information
about where his father has been,after he hasn't returned home
from the treasure more after 20years.
(40:33):
So that's Telemachus.
So I think college students cansee themselves through
Telemachus' journey ofself-discovery as they go away
from home, but then also startto appreciate, you know, what
they desire for flourishing homelife too that Odysseus is
(40:53):
longing for in the meantime.
So yeah, so students reallyenjoy.
They usually say I enjoyed thisa lot more than I expected.
Zack Johnson (41:02):
Sure Instagram.
I get a fat check.
No, sorry.
Hans Leaman (41:10):
And then certainly that has to do with it is a
great tale.
I mean, it wouldn't have lasted.
It was recopied.
We have more copies from theancient world of the Odyssey
than any other text, as Iunderstand.
So it was popular back thenthat people you know invested in
the handwritten recopying of itand yeah, so we have more
(41:30):
manuscripts of it than othertexts.
But yeah, it's resonated downthrough the centuries too and
many Christians have found waysto treat some of the stories in
it as good illustrations ofChristian fortitude as well.
And if the Odyssey certainlyhas character traits that would
not be part of the sameChristian ethical paradigm.
Zack Johnson (41:53):
So you don't have to sell me on this, hans, but
can you try to make the case towhy so?
This is part of our core.
Every single student is goingthrough these humanities classes
.
Why should every student gothrough these, whether you're
biology, business, computerscience, history, biblical and
(42:14):
religious studies?
What's the idea behind everyonetaking these and reading these
and yes.
Hans Leaman (42:21):
Well, I think of it as the syllabus for these three
courses, as providing a basisfor cultural reference points
that students will as they goforward in life.
When they're reading an op-ed ina newspaper or magazine
articles that they will be ableto fit in with the author of
(42:45):
that article is saying with asense of comparison to what some
of the mainstream's mainphilosophies that have been out
there since initiation times,they'll be able to fit them in
and compare them well, but alsosimply be able to know what many
words that the authors areusing, what they mean.
(43:07):
There are all kinds ofcharacters from literature that
authors will simply throw outand they expect an educated
populace to know what that'sreferring to.
That's happened because eversince the renaissance there's
been a canon of great literaturethat people look back to and
(43:27):
said these are great texts andthat an educated person would
have some familiarity with them.
They continue to be taught atuniversities.
There's a lot of assumptionsthat writers make about the
general American audience thatthey would know the reference
(43:48):
points from the texts that we'rereading.
Zack Johnson (43:52):
And then one of the.
I'll try to sell Sattler here alittle bit more when I'm
talking to students about whySattler versus other schools.
We only have five majors and soa lot of students want to
specialize in something that wemight not offer and I often talk
about hey, you could have theopportunity to choose one of our
(44:13):
five majors and then gospecialize later in a graduate
level.
Would you say that that'sdecent advice?
Given our liberal arts approachto education, I know it's kind
of a hard one.
Hans Leaman (44:29):
I've seen more and more studies come out in the
past number of years looking atsuccessful leaders in American
life, so looking at CEOs orpeople who have distinguished
themselves in the sciencesultimately or, yeah, leaders in
public life.
(44:50):
And they keep finding out thatmany of them had studied
something quite broad at thecollege level and even if they
went into the sciences later on,many actually had started in a
humanities field.
And it's surprising but, yeah,especially in the business field
that you might have plenty ofbusiness majors at the middle
(45:13):
management level, but thatthere's something about those
who are promoted into leadershippositions that they have some
sort of emotional quotients, ofability to relate to other
people, to be empathetic and inmeetings that might come from
(45:34):
their study of great literatureand thinking about why people
make decisions that they do intheir life, to think
empathetically about them.
That feels like historyintroduced to students to start
that kind of skill set.
So, yeah, so I think of thesehumanities classes as having a
(45:55):
place in the core to help createwell-rounded students in
general.
So even if we do want them tograduate with, if they're a
computer science major, thatthey do have a skill set that is
appreciated by companies thatneed computer science experts,
that they will fulfill thoseexpectations, that they will be
(46:17):
useful for their futureemployers but that they will
still have the emotional skillsets that come from studying
other fields as well, and viceversa.
That we have a couple ofclasses that are required of
humanities students, that theywill practice quantitative
skills and that they will havebe well-rounded enough to be
(46:40):
able to think critically aboutstatistics that they might be
reading in newspapers ormagazine articles, that they
would be alert to ways thatstatistics can mislead right and
that they can do some hard mathor have sufficient knowledge of
cell biology to sort throughthe incredible amount of medical
(47:02):
claims and studies that aremarketed these days.
Zack Johnson (47:07):
Yeah, and I wanted to.
What you were just talkingabout reminds me of an article
you sent me about the benefitsof having the same teachers who
are with students over multipleyears.
It's sort of a tangent.
So there was an article.
Hans Leaman (47:22):
I think it was in the New York Times.
Zack Johnson (47:23):
You sent me about this topic and it's something
that I didn't have it undergradI only ever had.
I had a couple teachersrepeated, but it was a very odd
thing because there's a biginstitution, so sometimes you
have students they're freshman,sophomore, junior and senior
(47:44):
years.
I think that's right and canyou tell me about some of the
benefits there that you mightsee or that other people are
writing about now as well?
Hans Leaman (47:55):
Yes, so yeah, the op-ed that you're referring to,
that was written by Adam Grant,an professor at the University
of Pennsylvania who's just avery creative guy.
He comes up with a lot of goodstudies to test out that are
mainly interested in oureducational development.
They usually have some sort ofrelationship to what would end
(48:19):
up being effective education.
Thank you, one of the thingsthat I that resonated when I
read that article is that I atSeller I've had the privilege to
be able to walk with studentsfrom freshman year to senior
year and so was with them whenthey were younger students and
(48:42):
just learning more advancedwriting skills and having to
write longer form essays thanasked of them in high school, as
we do At the college level.
So I'm able to see, you know,what some of their inclinations
are in writing and you know,give them initial advice and
(49:06):
then to be able to see ifthey're implementing it, not
just in that first course.
But then I'm able to.
You know I can, I can see kindof writing quirks, you might say
that fit.
You know certain studentspersonalities or and just kind
of train be alert to that.
You know I can expect to seesome of them, but I can also
(49:29):
start to see more conformity tothe expectations of an academic
essay with time, and that'ssomething that's, yeah, one
semester's worth of advice andmonitoring wouldn't wouldn't go
terribly far.
So, yeah, by being able to bethere and, yeah, you know, know
what to expect and then be ableto know what advice I've already
(49:52):
given, we can keep buildingupon what we had before.
Zack Johnson (49:56):
Yeah, I think it's a really.
I think it's a reallycompelling argument and I mean
the basic is parent.
I think about it in parenting.
I can imagine trying to developmy child if I only got to spend
three months at a time withthat over time and I was
thinking about it in terms ofparenting.
Well, we're coming up aboutabout on an hour.
(50:17):
Is there any other topic orinterest that I missed that
you're really passionate aboutthat?
You want to?
You want to touch on before Iask some of our series of
closing questions here?
Hans Leaman (50:29):
Well, I, when you were talking about refugees, I
realized that I hadn't talkedabout the, the legal needs that
I actually that's where I mainlytried to fill fill a gap for
since it was, you know so, askill set that I, that I that I
had developed by going to lawschool.
So that's something that a lotof refugee resettlement agencies
(50:51):
do provide some legal services,and it's actually not something
that you necessarily have to goto law school to be able to do.
It is helpful to have gone tostudy law and to be a licensed
lawyer, but there's, there arevarious elements of legal work
that even somebody with acollege degree can engage in.
(51:15):
So refugees, often they, whenthey come, they often still have
some family members that areabroad.
So one of the first points ontheir wish list once they have
permanent residency in theUnited States is often to
petition for family reunion, areunification to, to bring some
(51:37):
of their family members to, tobe with them and live with them
too.
So, yeah, so there's there'slegal work in going through the
different steps to gainpermanent residency and then
eventually, with time,citizenship too, but also then
family reunification, which is,yeah, the top priority typically
for for people to, because theyof course want their, want
their family to be together.
(51:59):
So, yeah, all those types ofthings are things that you know,
somebody who would volunteerfor a refugee resettlement
agency or work for one as anemployee, that they could get
certified by the Department ofJustice.
There's a Board of ImmigrationAppeals it's called that has has
different procedures in whichthey they can certify you.
(52:20):
You've learned enough in thatfield to be able to to help fill
out the forms for the refugeesand then, certainly, when people
so, as part of those thoseapplications, they usually do
need to rehearse their, theirstory on account of what, what
caused their, their flight fromtheir home country and how they
qualify for, for refugee status.
(52:42):
So that often also requireshelp from translators to be able
to go through in detail nowtheir story and also their,
their, the story of the familymembers that are still need to
come.
So so translation capabilitiesare also of of high, high need
(53:03):
and high, high value.
So of course, that's alsoreason for a Christian to learn
modern languages.
Zack Johnson (53:12):
And is that?
How long does that certificate?
How long does it take to getthat certification?
Hans Leaman (53:19):
Oh, I'm not sure.
Actually off off hands, no, andwhat, what?
Zack Johnson (53:24):
where can we, where can people find out more
about that?
I?
Hans Leaman (53:27):
think the website of the the border immigration
appeals would I'm sure wouldwould give details.
So that would be under thedepartment of justice.
Zack Johnson (53:36):
And are there any?
And if you get connected to a,a refugee resettlement agency,
they might have some of thoseresources.
So, yeah, yes, appointing toyeah.
Hans Leaman (53:50):
So I've been through that process, right, and
there's, there's a websitecalled refworld that has a great
database for all things relatedto the legal needs of of
refugees, right?
No, that's, that's a huge, hugeconsolidation of of useful
sources.
Zack Johnson (54:07):
Right, there might be some competition to the
answer to my next question.
What's the most compellingmodern language to your to learn
as?
A native English speaker fromthe US.
Right now, I know what youwould say.
Hans Leaman (54:22):
Well, yeah, I mean, I certainly think Spanish is is
the most useful not not frompersonal experience, because I
still need to learn it, but yeah, we have the you know, an
increasing number of people who,who, whose families, speak
Spanish at home.
And then, yeah, the the highestnumber of people who are
seeking to find settlements inthe US are are the highest
(54:47):
proportion there's in Spanishspeakers.
Zack Johnson (54:50):
Graham, what would you say to that question?
I'd have to say Dari becausethat's what I'm trying to learn.
Hans Leaman (54:57):
Yes, Well, that I mean certainly.
Yeah, I wouldn't deny that.
No, it doesn't deny the otherone, the language.
They're all.
All we need somebody to tolearn all of them.
Zack Johnson (55:06):
And then is there is there any?
Are there any resources thatyou regularly visit that you
might share with the audience tosay, hey, this, it's really
interesting.
Check out this resource.
It's a broad talk category ofbooks, articles, publications,
podcasts, anything that youregularly frequent.
Hans Leaman (55:27):
Um I do means in my my history studies or in life
in general.
Refugee work yeah, it's hard tohard to narrow things down.
Well, I would say I've got acouple of different publications
(55:48):
that I especially like to lookat when I have some free time
that do often give me good ideasfor teaching and for thinking
about, say, the Western canon.
So first things is yeah, a greatjournal that's yeah, has a
(56:09):
strong interest in maintainingwhat you might say is the
prominence of traditionalChristian morality in American
society and in Western societyat large.
And so they're yeah, they'reinterested in reflecting upon
classic texts and what we canstill learn from them.
(56:29):
Then there's Plough Magazinethat I really love, that's
produced by the Bruderhoffs.
That will bring in plenty moredevotional literature that I
appreciate and remind me ofwonderful texts that I might
have read in my younger yearsbut haven't read recently and
(56:50):
give cause to reflect upon themagain and cover all kinds of
important ethical issues thatChristians need to mull over and
challenge ourselves with.
So those are my two topmagazine recommendations.
Yeah, so the, I think for myhistory studies and preparing
(57:14):
myself to be a teacher ofdifferent historical topics in
general, I actually find it veryuseful to read the most
respected history journals ofthe field.
So, yeah, there's, yeah, great,great number of them, but they
(57:35):
would often be, you know, in thedatabases that our students
have access to as collegestudents.
But from my field in particular, I focus on the Reformation for
my dissertation and my PhD workin general.
So the 16th century journalfocuses on that period and
that's one I try to keep up with.
(57:57):
And then there's a journal onReformation Studies that's
published by Germans, so it'sgot a German name, but it's the
Archive for Reformation History.
Zack Johnson (58:07):
Is it published in German?
Hans Leaman (58:10):
Some articles are in German, some are in English.
Yeah, so those are twoimportant journals that I try to
keep up with, but then there's,yeah, plenty of other journals
that are published by theAmerican Historical Association
or their magazine that give goodtips for just teaching about
(58:30):
history, and yeah will alsoinclude important, yeah kind of
pathbreaking articles in variousfields, not just American
history.
Zack Johnson (58:40):
Great, and do you give books to people?
Yeah, I feel like that's aclassic.
Yeah, so what's one of thebooks that you have most gifted
to people?
That's like the classic, okaythis might be surprising.
Hans Leaman (58:55):
I think I do know the book that I probably have
bought for people most often andthat's Augustine's Confession,
which is on our syllabus in thehumanities classes, and I really
think it was life-changing forme to read that book and I think
a lot of people have anemotional reaction to reading it
(59:20):
, because you have an example ofa early Christian theologian
who's quite distant from us, youknow, culturally right, he's
got very different circumstances, but there's so much that still
resonates with the longingsthat we have as we come into our
(59:42):
teenage years and then tryingto sort out what direction to go
in life professionally.
And Augustine made thosedecisions at that stage of life.
Apart from Christ was anincorporating advice and wisdom
he got from his mother, who wasa Christian at that point but
then, you know, realized it'sstill at a young enough age, as
(01:00:06):
a youngish adult, the wisdom ofwhat his mother taught him and
has a homecoming of his own, youmight say, and yeah, accepts
Christ as his savior and then isreadily welcomed into church
(01:00:27):
leadership positions as peoplenotice the talents that he had
forged.
So it's a story of redeeminglost time in some ways, but also
putting to use the things thatwe can use, that we learn, you
know, even when we might nothave had.
You know God is our goal forthem, but then God got making
(01:00:48):
use of them in the end.
Zack Johnson (01:00:49):
So it's like the story of my life.
Hans Leaman (01:00:53):
So yeah, I think it's a great.
You know we don't have.
People usually find thatreading biographies is the type
of history that they find mostuseful, because you can kind of
pattern your life afterdecisions that you see other
people making that you admire.
But yeah, then an autobiographytakes it to a new level where
(01:01:17):
you can see you know theindividual person writing about
their own struggles.
You know first person, and sowhen they relate to you
emotionally, then it's not justabout you know what can I do to
be successful and then emulatesomebody in that regard, but
what can I do to be a betterperson and feel like a whole
(01:01:38):
other person as we look at thestruggles that other people
might have had internally?
Zack Johnson (01:01:43):
Okay, I kind of want to ask what number two
would be now.
Is there another one that comesto the top of your mind?
Because that one can't quit.
Hans Leaman (01:02:01):
Let's see, I can't think of what I've given more
often, but I really like Tolstoyas an author and so I know I've
given some books by Tolstoyaway, like usually his again
more the autobiographical kindsof works, like he's got one
that's called Confessions abouthimself, but then there's some
(01:02:22):
short stories that I think are alittle bit closer to home as
far as things that he wentthrough, as he also went from
kind of having a profligateyouth to a man of greater
spiritual intensity anddiscernment.
Zack Johnson (01:02:40):
And then I usually finish out with a question do
you have any other passionprojects that you're working on
that I missed?
It can span from hobbies toother passions that we might not
know about.
Hans Leaman (01:02:56):
Well, I have three kids now, so most of my hobbies
revolve around their interests.
And yeah, surprisingly I wasn'ta very athletic child by any
means.
My parents made me play LittleLeague Soccer for a year or two,
of course you did, but I wasmore interested in music and
(01:03:19):
always loved being part ofchoirs or helping to the church
life through music.
So that's always been my kindof side, my extracurricular.
At any schools I was at that, Iwas usually part of some sort of
a singing group, and yeah, Ilearned how to play piano at a
(01:03:41):
young age, so I enjoy sittingdown and doing that.
So my children are learningmusic.
But what they love more tospend their time on is sports,
and so they've gotten me moreinto outside, set the books down
and kick soccer ball with them,or have them team up against me
my hobbies are my children.
Zack Johnson (01:04:03):
I'm listening with that.
Well, thanks so much forjoining us.
I learned a lot and if you wantto follow your work, I think
you can find Hans's info on ourwebsite and things like that Any
other way to sort of find whatyou've done?
Or do you have an onlinepresence at all?
I don't know.
Hans Leaman (01:04:24):
No, not much.
I'm kind of averse.
I understand Social media.
I'm the same.
I'm in the same place.
Zack Johnson (01:04:30):
And for our audience.
Graham, you'll have to helpwith any other announcements,
but we did announce thatEntrustment is live.
It went on our websiteyesterday where every single
student gets a fully fundedoffer to come to Seattle or
release her tuition.
We're still charging for roomand board and, hans, I want to
(01:04:51):
praise you for that.
You actually sent an originalemail that pointed me in, I
think, a really digestible wayto go about thinking about that.
So thank you for that.
That watch is 2024, january2024.
So if you're interested incoming, to.
Seattle or Entrust is in historyand the humanities.
There's no better place tostudy.
(01:05:13):
I'm just kidding.
So thank you so much Anythingthat I missed Anything else,
hans, no, all right, thank you,thank you, thank you.
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