February 16, 2024 • 49 mins
Death isn't often a comfortable coffee table discussion, but it is as natural as life itself. In an honest and eye-opening conversation with Jill McClennen, a seasoned death Doula, we traverse the delicate terrain of end-of-life planning and the profound services provided by those who guide us through our final days. Jill enlightens us on the parallels between preparing for life's milestones and the equally significant act of preparing for its conclusion. With her guidance, we learn to navigate the necessary practicalities, like legal documentation, and understand the emotional and spiritual support that can transform this period into one of meaning, connection, and even unexpected joy.
As the discussion unfolds, we find solace in the stories shared, which reveal the sheer scope of emotions that accompany the end-of-life journey. Jill's personal anecdotes and the experiences of those she's assisted serve to dissolve the fears shrouding death, offering a lens of clarity and peace. Listening to her talk, it's evident that there is great value in being present for those nearing the end, and in fostering an environment where families can address their myriad questions and feelings. This dialogue is a gentle reminder that amidst the sorrow, there can be profound moments of gratitude and love.
As we listen, we're reminded that within each of us lies the potential for great change, and the capacity to make a significant impact on the lives of others, often in ways we least expect.
This is a show where ideas come together. The guest statements expressed on The Savvy Communicator Podcast are their own and not necessarily the views of The Savvy Communicator.
Thanks for joining us! Become part of the conversation at www.savvycommunicator.com, and follow me on social media: my handle is @savvycommunicator.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Savvy Communicator podcast.
I'm your host, amy Flanagan.
Today we are going to discuss atopic that most people truly
don't know how to talk aboutdying and the end-of-life
process.
If that scares you a little bit, it scares me too, but not too
much because I know our expertguest, jill, is going to get us
through it all.
Jill McLennan is a mother, sheis a chef, she is a podcast host
(00:23):
and she is a death doula.
Jill, thank you so much forbeing here today.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Thank you so much, amy, for having me.
I've been looking forward tothis conversation because it is
one of my favorite conversationsto have, and I know that sounds
strange to some people, buttalking about death and dying
really does not have to bemorbid, it doesn't have to be
scary.
It's something that we couldall do with a little practice.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
I think that's absolutely.
What we need is practice,because it's certainly been
through my life that it's theone thing people don't want to
talk about, unless it's kind ofa joke saying, oh well, you kids
are going to have to be the oneto clean out the house or
something similar, and everybodyjust sort of laughs and goes on
.
I have some experience, havingdealt with the end-of-life
(01:10):
process in my family, but trulynot enough to talk about it on a
comfortable level.
That's why I'm so glad you'rehere, because I think a lot of
us can benefit from it.
If you don't mind just startingus off at the beginning, what
is a death doula?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
A death doula is somebody that provides
completely non-medical care.
So we're not nurses, we're notdoctors, even though sometimes
nurses and doctors will becomedeath doulas.
That's not what we do.
As a death doula, we provideemotional, spiritual and
physical support for peoplearound the end of life.
You don't have to be dying toutilize a death doula.
(01:48):
You can use us at any stage oflife to help you prepare
yourself for what you would wantat the end of life, to ask some
of the hard questions, to havethe conversations with your
family members, so that this way, whenever the end of life does
happen, everybody feels a littlebit more prepared, they're a
(02:09):
little bit more relaxed, alittle more comfortable, because
you know what you want, you'vecommunicated what you want and
your family members don't haveto be stressed and anxious, not
knowing what it is that you want.
So really, everybody can use adeath doula, even though we will
often sit with people at theend of life what they will
sometimes say sitting vigil.
(02:29):
So we will work with familiesand, as somebody's actively
dying, we will go and sit withthe family members.
We will sit with the personthat's dying to kind of help
through that process, butthere's so much more that goes
into death doula work thanactually just sitting with
somebody that's dying.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
That's fascinating to hear about.
That's really fascinating.
So I was preparing for thisinterview.
One of the things that Inoticed was that I think in the
media especially, death can beportrayed as something that is
usually sudden and it's usuallya terrible loss and possibly
(03:07):
something that could have beenprevented.
And I wonder if those thingsare possibly some of the things
that you have to deal with,because we really don't get a
lot of information aboutpreparing for this stage of life
.
You prepare for a wedding, youprepare for a baby, you prepare
(03:27):
for knee replacements oranything like that, but this is
supposed to be something that wejust face head on.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
And I find it not just with the general population
but even with medical staffthere's not a lot of preparation
for what the actual end of lifelooks like.
That's really how I got intothe work, because when I was
taking care of my grandmother atthe end of her life, they sent
her home on hospice.
I said, okay, I expected it tobe like TV she closes her eyes,
(04:01):
she maybe sleeps a lot, but thatshe was just going to
peacefully die in her sleep.
There was nobody that actuallytalked to me, nobody that
prepared me for the realities ofit.
And we need to have these open,honest conversations.
But they're not happening onany level.
(04:23):
And, like you said, tv we're sofascinated in this culture by TV
shows and movies and evenpodcasts like the real crime
dramas and the people being shotand blown up and like that's
not how most of us are going todie.
Most of us are going to probablyget a diagnosis that then, over
(04:43):
a long period of time, we'regoing to try treatments, that
then eventually we have to getto that point where the
treatments are not workinganymore and we need to have that
conversation.
We need to make that decision toallow ourselves to transition
off of treatment into what theywould consider comfort, care,
keeping people comfortable untilthe moment of death.
(05:05):
But we don't know that becausethat's not what you see in
movies, that's not what you seeon TV, and that is again a lot
of what a death doula does isjust helping to educate within
our communities, educate thegeneral public and also educate
our families that if somebodycalls me and says my mom just
got a diagnosis, we don't knowwhat to expect, we don't know
(05:27):
what to do, we don't know whatquestions to ask.
That's one of the things thatwe can do as death doulas is
just kind of help peopleunderstand how to advocate for
themselves and what they wantand what they need, rather than
going in blind and being likeI'm so overwhelmed right now I
don't even know where to start.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Yeah, yeah, I can certainly see that.
So if I was coming to you as aclient today, and as I am,
somebody that's relativelyhealthy, nothing on the horizon
that would be of concern.
Where would you start me off?
What are some of the thingsthat just anybody walking down
(06:09):
the street might need to knowand start to think about?
Speaker 2 (06:14):
The first place I always start with people is your
paperwork, which is not fun andexciting, but it's important.
There's legal paperwork that,again, as a death doula, I don't
do the legal paperwork, but Iwant to make sure that people
have their wills in place, thatthey have their person.
Essentially, that will make themedical decisions If they've
(06:36):
lost the ability to make themfor themselves and if they say,
no, I don't have anything, okay,great.
So that's where we're going tostart.
We're going to start by havinga conversation and I have a
document that I created, butthere's ones that you can just
get online something like FiveWishes, where you read through.
(06:56):
You have a conversation withsomebody about what's important
to you.
Is it extending life as long aspossible or is it being
comfortable?
Now your answer is going to bedifferent depending on where
you're at.
Right now I'm 45.
I have two young children.
Absolutely, do anythingpossible.
Whether it's a car accident,whether it's a diagnosis of some
(07:17):
type of cancer, we're going todo everything possible so that I
can be around as long aspossible for my children.
Yes, now, when I'm older, that'sgoing to be a different answer.
You know, if I'm 85 or I'm 90and I get a cancer diagnosis, am
I going to want to go throughtreatments that potentially are
going to make me very ill, maybeextend my life a little bit,
(07:41):
but my quality of life is goingto be really low?
I would rather have a yearwhere I feel pretty good, I
could still get around, I couldstill interact with my family
and my friends, versus two yearswhere I'm bed bound and I don't
feel well and I don't have theenergy to do anything because
I'm going through these reallyextensive treatments.
(08:02):
That's why it needs to be aconversation.
There's no right or wronganswer.
It just depends on the person.
That's really where I like tostart with.
Again, everybody, no matterwhat age you are, we need to
think about these things.
Even before my husband and Igot married, we were in our 20s
(08:23):
At the time.
That's when Terri Shiavo, kindof that, was all over in the
news right.
It was all over in the news thatshe had collapsed, she was
being kept alive.
Her husband was saying that'snot what she wanted.
Her parents were sayingsomething else.
And I said to my at that time,my boyfriend I said you know, if
anything like that were to everhappen to me, please, please,
(08:44):
do not keep me on life support,like if they're saying that
there's nothing that can be done, that I'm gonna live like this,
you know, basically in avegetative state, for the rest
of my life.
Please don't let that happen.
But because we weren't married,especially he would have no say
unless we had it down on paper.
And so we did our firstversions of our advanced health
(09:05):
directives when we were in our20s, because you never know, wow
, now again, 25 years later,here I am, 45, healthy, still in
really good condition as far asI know.
I am pretty healthy.
But I still have similar wishes.
But they have changed becausenow we do have children.
Right, things had to change.
(09:26):
So it's gonna be flexible, it'sgoing to be fluid as you go
through different stages of life, and so it's still, even if you
work with a death rule.
It's not like you just sit downand you do this paperwork and
then we say, okay, you're gooduntil you're 90.
Like no, we need to revisitthese things on what we would
consider big life milestones.
(09:47):
Right?
If you get married, if you getdivorced, if you have children,
if you get a diagnosis, thoseare all times when you need to
revisit what your wishes are.
But you're not gonna know whatdecisions you want to make if
you don't understand thedifferent terminologies.
Right, like I'm not a doctor,I'm not a nurse, but part of
(10:08):
what I've done is taken the timeto learn and at least know what
questions you should ask yourdoctor if different things come
up, so that you're makingeducated decisions.
Again, there's no right or wronganswer, but if you're making it
from a place where you feelconfident, because you
understand, then that's muchbetter than being in crisis
(10:29):
because something happens, maybethere is an accident, and
you're like I don't know, I'venever thought about this, I've
never thought about what myspouse wanted.
We never talked about it.
That is not the time to havethat conversation.
You really need to have itearlier on.
And a death tool.
It can just help navigate thatconversation and help it,
(10:50):
because it can be difficult totalk to your loved one about it,
and so that's part of what wecan do is almost like mediate
the conversation, so it's alittle bit more comfortable for
everybody.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense because I could see
wanting that guidance even atthis stage in life where, as far
as I know, everything is okay.
But to have somebody to look towhen things get difficult or
emotional.
Because I love my husband, Ilove my family, I don't want to
(11:25):
think about anything happeningto them.
I don't want to think abouthaving to make these decisions
and yet everybody's going tohave to.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
None of us really want to think about it, right?
Even me, as a death ruler, Iget a little choked up.
I get choked up still when Ithink about the fact that
something could happen to myhusband.
I mean, it's the reality, itcould.
It happens to somebody everyday.
Not thinking about it isn'tgoing to prevent that from
(11:58):
happening to me, but thinkingabout it just makes sure that I
am prepared, if it did happen,as far as what he wants.
But it also gave me a sidebenefit that I didn't expect,
which is I am so much morepresent and appreciative for
every single moment that I havewith my husband and with my
(12:22):
children, in a way that I wasn'tbefore and again, I loved them
and I appreciated them before,but if I was in a rush I might
run out the house and be likesee y'all later and just run out
the door.
Now I try so hard not to do that.
I try to say every single timeI leave the house I love you
guys so much, Like I'll see youwhen I get home.
Y'all are my favorite peopleever.
(12:44):
I really make this consciouseffort so that if something were
to happen to me or somethingwere to happen to one of them,
there would never be thisfeeling of we didn't have that
connection at the end.
Because so often that happens,right?
People leave the house, they'remad at each other, or even if
they're not mad at each other,everybody's just so busy.
(13:05):
We're rush around all the timeand then something happens and
they say oh, you know, I didn'treally say goodbye, I didn't say
I love you I didn't give them ahug or a kiss because I was in
a rush.
So it changed the way that Ilive.
By being okay with the factthat I will die and we will all
(13:25):
die at some point, it doesn'tmean that if something were to
happen, I would be okay with it.
I mean I would still be if myhusband were to die suddenly or
even get a diagnosis right.
I would still be heartbroken, Iwould still struggle, I would
still go through the humanemotions, but I wouldn't look
back with regret thinking, wow,I wasted so much time because
(13:49):
I've really spent the last fewyears being as fully present
with all of my loved ones and Ididn't used to do that before.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Yeah, I can see that.
Like I said, I had someexperience with death in my
family.
So I think that you have thatknowledge after a certain point
in time, that it is going tohappen and you do hang on a
little more closely to thepeople that are there.
But there are still so manythings that I don't know about
it.
I mean, you said paperwork andI was like, oh right, yeah,
(14:23):
that's all I knew about it.
If you asked me what forms doyou need for something like this
, I wouldn't be able to tell you.
So it's really so fascinatingto hear it from your perspective
.
And this may be a little out oforder in terms of questions,
but I just I have to ask becausethere's so much sadness around
(14:43):
it Do you ever find that there'slightness and happiness and
laughter around death?
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Oh, definitely.
Again, it seems unusual, butthere's some people that when
they reach this stage where theyknow for sure that they're
dying and they're workingthrough some of these things,
there actually is joy, there ishappiness, there is this feeling
of you know, okay, I'm readyfor this.
It's time I could actuallyrelax, finally, I could stop
(15:12):
fighting, I could stop trying todo all of these things.
Family members I've seen peoplein rooms, you know, playing
music together and singing andyou know holding hands and
connecting in ways that theyhadn't connected.
I've talked to people thatthey're like I was closer to my
mother at the end of her lifethan I ever was, because I was
(15:35):
showing up and we were togetherand we were having conversations
that we were never able to have.
Because our walls kind of comedown right, Like there's this
facade that we keep up thisstrength.
You know all these things thatwe walk through life, that for a
lot of people, as they near theend of life, they can let that
(15:56):
down and so they actuallyconnect with people so much more
deeply than they did in theirnormal day-to-day life.
So there really is a lot ofbeauty at the end of life.
We just don't hear about it asmuch.
We don't talk about it, but,again, we don't really talk
about death that much.
So it's not like you reallyhear people sharing their
(16:20):
experiences.
You know, even for me with mygrandmother, you know, there was
times when I was sitting up atnight with her and she was
talking about these like womenthat were in the room and they
were singing to her and you know, and I'm not seeing these
people, but I loved that.
I was like really, and I'm likewhat do they look like?
Like what are they singing toyou?
What is it Like?
(16:40):
I was really curious and wewere having these beautiful
conversations and it was twoo'clock in the morning while I
was like sitting up with her andI wouldn't trade that
experience really for anything.
And, yeah, there was somedifficult moments, but the
difficult moments, honestly,were my fear and my confusion,
(17:00):
because I didn't understand,because I had nobody to really
say to me oh no, it's okay, thisis normal, this is natural,
this is what happens.
If I would have known that, Icould have relaxed so much more.
So my hardest moments actuallywouldn't have been as hard,
because I would have understoodwhat was going on rather than
(17:23):
just being like here you go.
Grandma's going home on hospice, good luck.
And that was it, and I was likeoh, all right, I will figure it
out as I go, and I did.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Yeah, we were very fortunate that we had hospice
too.
We had inpatient hospice andeverybody there was amazing.
But it's still a lot of time onyour own with your family
member and I think that beingable to have somebody there that
you could ask questions of,whether it's as simple as what
(17:56):
is this medicine that they'regiving, or where do you go to
get a Diet Coke, All that stuffthat's just the human part of
being around.
I would have wonderfullybenefited from something like
that.
I think what are some of themain questions you get from
people or families that you'reworking through?
If they are near the end of life, either with themselves or with
(18:19):
a family member.
What are some of the mostcommon things that you hear?
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Oh man, there's honestly a wide range of things
that I've heard A lot of.
It is that people really doquestion what they believe is
gonna come after this.
Right, there's, there's.
(18:43):
No matter how much somebody hasfaith when they're really
facing the end of life, I do geta lot of questions about it and
I try to do things in a way ofI try to listen 90% of the time
and talk only 10%.
So a lot of times I'll askquestions back well, what do you
(19:05):
think is gonna happen?
What did your family think wasgonna happen?
You know, I'll ask the familymembers a lot of times as
they're preparing for somebody'sactual transition, the end of
life transition.
They will have questions tooabout you know, what's?
What can I expect?
What is it gonna sound like?
What is it gonna look like?
(19:26):
Are they gonna be in pain?
You know, what can I expect theend of life to actually look
like?
And there is some common thingsthat people have happened, but
it doesn't happen to everybody.
You know, everybody is a littlebit different, just like with
birthing, right Like birth tollsand death tolls.
We have a lot of similaritiesand, just like when you have
(19:46):
babies, there's some things thathappen, but it doesn't happen
with everybody and everybody'sbirth experience is different,
and so we can prepare people asmuch as possible.
But a lot of it for me reallyhas just been listening to
people talk about their life,about their experiences, about
(20:07):
their fears, and then they willsometimes ask a question and a
lot of it will be like is thisweird?
Is this weird that I'm talkingabout this?
Is it weird that I feel thisway?
Yeah, you know like, and that'swhat I'm like.
No, all of this is valid theanger, the sadness, the relief,
(20:27):
the gratitude, right Things thatpeople are like.
Why am I feeling these emotions?
All of it's normal, all of it'snatural and that's really more.
What I'm there to do is justkind of hold the space for
people to process on their ownwhat they're feeling and what
they're going through.
(20:48):
But I've had some reallybeautiful conversations with
people that are dying and, again, in a lot of cases there's not
the fears that I expected,there's not the sadness that I
expected.
In a lot of cases, especiallyif somebody's older, like I'm
kind of ready, you know, likeI'm ready for this, like let's,
(21:10):
let's just keep me comfortable.
You know, thanks for sittingwith me, thanks for holding my
hand, you know, thanks for beinghere with me.
But they're not necessarily asafraid as you would think.
But then some people of courseare, and again, usually that's
more, they're afraid of theunknown.
They're afraid that they'rebeing a burden on their family
(21:33):
members.
Right, they're, the fears thatthey're having aren't really
about them, it's the unknownsand how it's affecting the other
people in their life.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
So I want to take a step back,actually, now that we plunged
right into the middle of, youknow, being with a family member
or being the family member thatmight be going through this,
and you know, you weren't alwaysa death doula, you started off
as a chef correct.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
That is correct.
Yeah, that's my background.
I've been in food service sinceI was 16 and I'm 45 now, so you
can do the math on that one.
It's been a really long timesince I've been in food service
and I loved it.
I mean, I've worked inrestaurants, hotels.
I owned my own bakery cafewhere we would do wedding cakes
(22:24):
and breads and soups and saladsand coffees and I taught.
Most recently I taught a jobtraining program where I would
teach people culinary baking anda class called serve safe,
which is how to not get you sickwhen they're making your food
very important class yes right,and so that's where most of my
(22:47):
career was spent, which did meanthat then I had a little
imposter syndrome when I waskind of coming into this new
career right, where I was like,why I'm just a cook, why is
anybody gonna want to know whatI have to say or what I can do?
But I think in some ways itactually was a positive thing
that I came into this as anoutsider, because I was able to
(23:11):
see some of the places where Icould really help fill the holes
in what's already existingbetween hospice and doctors and
nurses and even assisted livings, right, rehab centers, all
these different things that werealready there.
I was like, oh, I see now wherethey need a little extra help.
So it actually worked out well.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
You know that's so true, and again I'll go back and
blame the media.
For another thing is that we'realso kind of led to believe
that being a beginner isn't agood thing, that either.
You're supposed to jump rightin and be a flash and learn
everything in the first fiveminutes and leap ahead.
But if you're kind of goingthrough things you know slowly
(23:57):
but surely and learning thingsand having to learn them again,
you are somehow not doing itright.
And there's such a focus onachievement when actually, by
learning, coming from you know,a different viewpoint, coming
from a different level ofexperience that you actually
(24:18):
have vantage might not be thefirst 10 second advantage, but
it certainly will be the thirdweek or the fourth week
advantage because you haveexperience that you can just lay
on top of everything thatyou're learning right now so.
I know you mentioned that yougot into end-of-life care
because of your grandmother had.
Had anything else been pullingyou towards that particular type
(24:42):
of career, or was it justbecause your own grandmother did
care?
Speaker 2 (24:47):
I think, actually, that I've been meant to do this
work my entire life, becauseeven as a child, one of the
things that my grandmother and Iused to do together we would go
to there was a local veteranhome and then there was also a
local Catholic kind of likerehab hospice center that my
(25:07):
grandmother and I would govolunteer at, and I remember her
telling me even, you know, whenI was in high school, we, we
would do this, since I was achild, all the way until I
graduated high school.
I would go with her aroundholidays and we would sing and
give out rosaries and takepeople to mass, like, do
whatever we needed to do, andshe would say to me, you would
go into the rooms that everybodyelse was afraid of and you
(25:31):
would go up to the people andyou would just talk to them and
you'd hold their hand, like whenyou were really little and I
was like really and I was likeokay, and because I knew that I
was doing it as an adult, but Ididn't have that recollection
that I was naturally doing this.
It didn't scare me, I wasn'tafraid of it.
They look like the people thatneeded me the most, but I never
(25:54):
considered actually it's notreally true.
I did consider becoming adoctor and then I was told at
one point that I was too stupidto become a doctor.
Right, could you imagine.
But it's okay because my pathworked out well.
But I did actually want to be adoctor at one point and then
put it off to the side, ended upworking in a bakery, kind of
(26:15):
went on that whole path and thenwhen I took care of my
grandmother, that's when again Ikind of revisited it and I
thought maybe I want to be ahospice nurse, like I think
that's work I could really do.
But I had a bakery, I had a sixmonth old at the time.
Life just kind of kept moving.
But then this job trainingprogram that I teach I work with
(26:38):
people that have oftentimescome from very traumatic
situations.
So there is a lot of death,there's drug overdoses, there's
shootings, there's stabbings.
I mean I've had students thathave told me stories about the
things that they've witnessed.
I've had students die.
(26:58):
I've found somebody who had drugoverdosed, like I mean I really
was coming across it so much inmy work, but again it was
pulling me towards it.
It wasn't scaring me, it wasn'tpushing me away.
I was like this is a need.
This is what people really needsupport with Telling the
(27:19):
stories that they needed to tell, that they needed to get out,
and not having somebody getuncomfortable and run away and
try to stop the conversation orchange it to a different topic.
I just sat with it and Ibreathed and I just opened my
heart so that they can feel thatsomebody was there to hear them
and to support them.
(27:41):
And so again I thought I wasgonna teach baking, when really
I kind of was doing somethingelse, and so it was kind of
pulling me again down that path.
And so when I really wasgetting close to being about 40
years old and I thought I don'tthink I can be in a kitchen
until I'm 65.
Like I've done this a long timealready, you know, the older I
(28:03):
get, the harder it's gonna be onmy body.
I'm standing, I'm unloadingtrucks, like I'm getting things
out of the oven, like that areabove my head and way half as
much as me.
Like I just physically don'tthink I could do this.
And then I heard the term deathdoula and I was like that's it.
Like as soon as I heard it andthe guy and there's actually not
(28:25):
many men in it but the person Ihappened to hear on a podcast
was a man.
As he started explaining whathe did, I was like that's it,
that's it, that's what I'msupposed to do, that's what I'm
here for.
And so I think I actuallystarted this work when I was a
child.
I just didn't know it until Iwas about 40.
(28:45):
Then I actually really made theeffort.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
That's so interesting because it's so amazing, I
think, whatever path you take inlife and career, how you look
back after a little while.
You're like no, I was alwayssupposed to end up here, even
though I planned to be afantastic lawyer or an amazing
politician, but somehow itturned around and I'm here and
(29:11):
those skills I had them feedinto the skills I have now, and
I just think that's amazing andvery cool when we have that
realization.
So what was it like for youwhen you began working as a
doula?
Speaker 2 (29:25):
It's so I love the work that I do.
It's hard to get the work andit's partially because it's new
enough that people don't knowwhat it is right.
So even today, there's a localhospital by me that I'm gonna
start volunteering with andagain, this is a hospital.
(29:45):
They have a palliative careteam.
It's actually a trauma hospital, so they have a lot of death
and dying and the volunteercoordinator said I have never
heard of a death doula until wegot your email and I was like,
well, here we go.
So she looked it up, sheresearched it, we had a long
conversation about it, and sopeople just don't know that we
(30:06):
exist, they don't know what wedo, they don't know how and when
to utilize us.
So, as much as I can say like Ilove doing the work, I haven't
done as much of it as I wouldreally like to, especially at
you know I started in July of2020.
And this is now what?
(30:26):
January of 2024.
So it's been quite a few yearsnow and I am slowly getting
clients that I'm working with,but it's really just been a
process of educating peopleabout what it is that I do to
try and bring on the clients.
And it's okay, right, like,it's fine, I'm in it for the
(30:48):
long haul.
And I think in some ways it'sactually been great, because if
I would have just immediatelygotten clients doing what I
thought I was gonna do, whichwas sitting with people at the
end of life, preparing them andtheir families, right Like
having a client hire me on, I gothrough the whole process with
them, I potentially would havenever looked into hospitals.
(31:08):
But now I've been volunteeringalready at another hospital
that's further north, so it'sover an hour away from me, and I
actually found that I reallylike hospital settings.
I like kind of working withpeople in shorter bursts, kind
of going through supporting themwhen they really need support,
because maybe the doctor justcame in and said, hey, we can't
(31:31):
continue treatment, this is it,and then the person's like, oh
well, now, what do I do withthis?
And their family members arelike, what do I do with this
information?
And so I actually have foundthat I really like working in
hospitals.
I don't necessarily want towork in like a hospice type
(31:51):
setting.
So it's been an interestingjourney for me to kind of figure
out where I fit, and I also amfinding too that I do like
educating, and so I am startingto become more of like a paid
speaker where I will go intodifferent businesses.
(32:13):
I do some classes myself online.
I do some classes myself inperson around all different
topics.
It could be grief, it could bedeath and dying.
I have caregiver courses that Ikind of work with people to
train caregivers so that theyunderstand what's going on.
It goes back to my teachingroots, right Of what I've just
done for the last 10 years of mylife, and so I'm really finding
(32:36):
that I love doing that andthat's when I started the
podcast, because I love to talkto people and so there's
definitely a lot of differentthings that I didn't think I was
gonna do when I did my training.
That I realized and it's notjust me, I mean, it is other
death dwellers we're just kindof not at a point yet culturally
where we can make enough moneyto support ourselves.
(33:00):
If we're just gonna do like thekind of death that all the work
that most of us were trained todo, we have to kind of branch
out.
And that's okay, because I'mactually finding a lot of things
that I didn't expect that nowI'm really enjoying and I'm
finding there's a need andpeople really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
So yeah, I love teaching too, and I've had a
similar experience to yours, inthat you start out by thinking,
oh, can you actually teach aclass about this?
And then you discover that, yes, you can, and it is needed, and
that's always the most fun,because you're going with
information that nobody elseknows about, and that's why
(33:40):
you're so needed.
So I do wanna ask you aquestion that might be some
people might roll their eyes atit, but I would say for
listeners, regardless ofreligion or spirituality or
atheism or whatever, do you findthat people find comfort as
(34:01):
they're getting towards the endof their life, or they're with a
family member that's gettingtowards the end of their life,
or is that just something welike to think?
Speaker 2 (34:11):
I have really seen both where some people really
turn to their spirituality atthe end of life, and it does
bring them comfort, it bringsthem a sense of peace.
Some people will start off asatheists and will turn to a
(34:31):
religion at the end of lifewhich, you know I don't know if
that's just a function of it'sbetter to believe and be wrong
than not believe and be wrong.
Right, maybe there's some ofthat happening.
Maybe it is just some of thenatural human ability or human
(34:52):
desire, I guess, to want tobelieve in something, and some
people almost go the other way,where they're like I was.
You know, I believe this thingmy entire life and now I'm not
so sure and I'm okay not beingsure.
And again, that's why I lovethis kind of stuff, because I
(35:14):
love having these conversationswith people about what it is
they're.
You know they're thinking andexpecting and you know sometimes
they're more willing to sharesome of their weirder thoughts
and weirder beliefs becausethey're like I'm dying anyway,
so what do I care if this ladythinks I'm weird and so I think
we're going to go to anotherplanet when we die and I'm like
amazing.
(35:34):
I think that sounds really cooland a lot of times people want
to ask me what I believe and I'mlike, honestly, I don't know.
I really don't know what Ibelieve and I'm okay with that.
Not knowing what I believehappens to us after we die.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
I think a lot of people probably closer to a
majority, you know are not sure,because I know I have what I'd
like to believe and I have whatI'm pretty sure about and but
then there is that not knowingand there is concern and even
(36:16):
fear that can come out of that,because it is a time when you
really, really like to be sureand know that whoever it is, is
going forward into thispredictable situation.
But it is the mostunpredictable of all situations
and you cannot know everythingas much as we'd like to.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
No, and nobody knows for sure.
I don't care what they say,nobody knows for sure.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Yeah, I was reading about you and one of the things
that really caught my eye isthat you not only sit and talk
and answer questions and supportfamily, but you will also do
your best to do some spiritualhealing as well for people that
request.
It Is that?
Tell me a little bit about that, please, of course.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
So it really is more again asking people questions,
not trying to push myspirituality onto them.
That's usually where I kind ofstart, and one of the things
that I like to do is kind ofwhat people would call like
energy healing, reiki.
But it's my own way of doing it.
(37:27):
But I think Reiki is somethingthat a lot of people are kind of
familiar with, where it's likea guided meditation almost,
where I help people relax theirbodies, I help them relax their
minds, and then I talk themthrough this visualization, this
experience, where it helps tobring them within right, to feel
(37:51):
the sense of calm, to feel thesense of peace, and even some of
the healing also is, you know,the regrets, the shame, the
things that they maybe didn'ttell anybody else but they're
really struggling with it at theend of their life.
I'm there to hear all of itbecause I want people to die
(38:13):
feeling like there's not thoseunsaid, unfinished kind of
things that they maybe can'tfinish with the person right,
and maybe the person's notaround anymore, maybe the person
doesn't want to talk to them.
I mean, there's not much thatwould ever make me flinch that
somebody would say, and so I'mlike it's okay, you can say
(38:35):
anything to me If you need toget it out of you.
I do believe again with thislike energy healing thing that
if we hold these things withinus, they almost cause like
pockets of you know.
We visualize it as like smoke orlike this, like dense kind of
like darker pockets, right, thatthat's what we hold when we
(38:55):
hold the grief and we hold theshame and we hold the trauma,
right.
And if we're holding all of thatbefore we die, I feel like that
is going to make it harder forthe person to transition and so
we need to get it out.
And so I'll use movements, I'lluse again like the guided
meditations, like I'll use justdifferent techniques with people
(39:17):
and have them be able toexpress these things, to come to
a sense of peace withinthemselves so that they're ready
to die.
And sometimes I almost givelike homework, like I have a
client that I work with that Igive them almost like homework
assignments where I'm like allright, let's talk about these
things, but first I want you towrite them out or draw out a
(39:39):
picture of what you think thisthing is right.
I work with everybodyindividually for whatever works
for them to help them process,to help them heal.
So that my goal is is that bythe time they die, they can feel
okay about the fact thatthey're dying, because their
soul is more at peace, and Ifeel that's really probably, to
(40:04):
me, the most important part ofthe work that I do with people.
But it is all interconnected.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Yeah, are you there for people with grief?
Does your work continue to helppeople that are grieving after
a death, or do you tend to juststay within the process itself?
Speaker 2 (40:26):
I do work with grief.
Not all death doulas will Deathdoulas.
We kind of go across thespectrum.
I like to say I'm before,during and after death.
So again, the preparationbefore, the during process, but
then also with the griefafterwards, because a lot of
people that is when they feelyou know, we have all again, we
(40:52):
have the support around us a lotof times as somebody's dying
and then they die and then thepeople that are left behind are
just kind of okay, well, now,what?
Now, what do I do?
I've even talked to people onewoman who was a widow and a
fairly young widow and she saidyou know, they come in, they put
all the equipment out, you knoweverything's in the house, and
(41:13):
then he died.
And then it was like, okay, myhouse is a mess, Everything's
still all over the place.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Right.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
What do I do from here?
You know, like a nail, I havenobody.
My friends aren't really aroundanymore.
I don't have any support.
And so, as a death doula, thatis where I still like to work
with my clients, and I'veactually had clients that I've
only worked with around grief,where they've come to me after a
death.
One woman it was a baby haddied and so I worked with her
(41:44):
for a while.
Another person that was ayounger person, their parent had
committed suicide.
I worked with them for a while.
Again, I don't shy away fromthe really hard stuff.
That's when people need thissupport the most, and so again,
I would kind of do techniqueswith them.
I would do some relaxation,some movement.
I think with grief especially,moving our bodies is so
(42:08):
important.
I try to incorporate all thesenses with grief work because
it's can we just believe.
You want to hold it all in.
We're a, we feel alone.
We feel that sense of peopledon't understand, they don't
want to hear about it anymore.
You know our culture.
They basically give you atimeline.
If it's a child that dies, youhave this much time.
(42:30):
If it's a spouse that does thismuch time, you know like that
it doesn't work that way.
There's no timeline, and so weget this shame and we hold it in
, and so again it's going tostick in our bodies, and so I
like to really incorporate thislike holistic kind of using all
the different senses to workthrough the grief, to be able to
(42:50):
express the grief so that wecan maneuver through the world
in a way that feels a little bitbetter for us, doesn't go away,
but it can get better than whatwe typically do in our culture
when it comes to grief.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Yeah, I saw a lovely little cartoon once about grief
and it was just described.
As you do, grief is a bookcasethat moves into your room and
you don't necessarily want itthere but it's not leaving.
And then one day you put a bookon the bookshelf.
The bookshelf is now servingyou in a little bit and then,
(43:31):
maybe after a while, you put alittle plant on there and then
you know another book and thenmaybe you decide to paint it one
day.
So the bookshelf is not goingaway, but it can become part of
you in a more positive way.
Not to say that the sadnessever goes, but you know that
it's just more, more part of you.
(43:53):
I don't know what the word is,that I'm looking for more part
of you in a comfortable way oran easier way or you know
something, but that you know thebookcase that's moved in with
you is something that can serveto help you to.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
I don't like that.
I've never thought of it thatway, but it's a.
I'm a very visual person, right.
So in my head I'm visualizingthat and I'm like, oh, I really
like that because, you're right,I never going to completely be
gone, and I think one of thethings that I've heard people
say that I really have loved iswhen somebody dies and I've even
(44:36):
heard people say this aboutchildren, which again, part of
me is like I can't imagine.
But after they go through someof the healing process, there's
gratitude for no matter how muchtime they had that person,
whether it was 12 years or 20years or whatever.
It was just this sense ofgratitude that they were in my
(45:00):
life, and it doesn't mean thatthere's this like spiritual
bypassing of it, of like, no,it's wonderful, I'm fine.
But we do tend to sometimes ashumans, right, we get so stuck
in the sadness and the loss andthere's this feeling that if I
(45:21):
quote, unquote move on, it meansI'm okay that they're gone, it
means that I don't miss them, itmeans that I forgot about them,
and that doesn't have to be thecase.
We don't have to get stuck inour grief in order to feel like
we're honoring the person.
We can still be grateful forany time that we have with them.
We can still celebrateanniversaries, we can still
(45:43):
create rituals around.
You know things that they enjoydoing and we enjoy doing with
them.
So now, once a year, we do it,still in a very ritualistic way.
But, not be stuck in it so thatday to day we just can't
function.
So we can work with griefbetter than we do.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
I think that's a wonderful place to kind of bring
this to a close for now.
But if you had to choose, likea piece of advice that you
wanted to leave our listenerswith, you know number one piece
of advice from jail to death tolove, is there something that
leaps to your mind in particular?
Speaker 2 (46:25):
My biggest thing is.
I tell people often to juststart the conversations with
your loved ones in small ways.
It doesn't have to be a big.
Let's sit down and talk aboutdeath and talk about all these
things.
Just start the conversation andjust be like, hey, have you
(46:47):
ever thought about the end oflife?
You know, have you ever thoughtabout what you would want after
you die?
Do you want to be cremated ordo you want to be buried?
Like, just like littleconversations.
Just get the conversationstarted, because once you start
it will get easier.
It's just that fear of evenstarting it stops so many people
(47:09):
.
So you don't have to dive intothe pool.
Just dip your toes in a littlebit and just start it a little,
and then you can work from there.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
All right, that sounds good.
I can hang on to that, I think,and I hope our listeners can
too.
Jill, tell us a little bitabout how people can get in
touch with you if they areinterested, because you do some
virtual sessions as well asin-person work.
Is that correct?
That is correct.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
I do work virtually and in-person, and I do, again
work with people before, duringand after death.
I work with caregivers as well.
So if you are caring forsomebody, or even you know, we
all have parents that are aging,if we have our parents still
around, we're gonna have tonavigate this at some point.
So I'm happy to support peoplethrough any of that, and my
(47:59):
business name is End of LifeClarity.
That's my website, that's whatI am on all social media,
whether it's Instagram or TikTokor Facebook, whatever it is.
But even on Facebook, peopleare welcome to friend me.
I'd like to have conversationswith people you know right on
Facebook.
It's kind of a nice way tointeract, but you could reach
(48:20):
out to me on any of thoseplatforms and I'm happy to talk
to people.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
That's great.
We'll make sure that we getthose in the show notes as well.
Thank you for everyone.
No problem, jill.
Thank you so much for beinghere today.
Thank you for kind of carryingme through this conversation,
and I know my experience.
Inexperience is showing andyeah cannot thank you enough.
Everybody is just Jill atendoflifeclaritycom.
(48:46):
We'll have all of ourinformation in the show notes,
and thank you for taking on thistopic with us.
It's definitely a tough one,but I'm certainly leaving
feeling more relaxed and alittle more uplifted than I was
when we started, so I appreciatethat.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
Wonderful Well, thank you so much, it was my pleasure
.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
Thank you to our listeners for today.
I want to shout out Atlanta,georgia, manassas, virginia and
BelmaPen Hope I got that rightin Belize.
Thank you so much.
I see you.
I appreciate you, lookingforward to seeing you on our
next show.
But if you're enjoying theseepisodes, please leave us a
rating and a review on yourfavorite podcast platform.
(49:27):
Really helps the show out.
Thanks so much for being heretoday.
We'll see you next time.
Hello and welcome to the Savvy Communicator podcast.
I'm your host, amy Flanagan.
Today we are going to discuss atopic that most people truly
don't know how to talk aboutdying and the end-of-life
process.
If that scares you a little bit, it scares me too, but not too
much because I know our expertguest, jill, is going to get us
through it all.
Jill McLennan is a mother, sheis a chef, she is a podcast host
(00:23):
and she is a death doula.
Jill, thank you so much forbeing here today.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Thank you so much, amy, for having me.
I've been looking forward tothis conversation because it is
one of my favorite conversationsto have, and I know that sounds
strange to some people, buttalking about death and dying
really does not have to bemorbid, it doesn't have to be
scary.
It's something that we couldall do with a little practice.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
I think that's absolutely.
What we need is practice,because it's certainly been
through my life that it's theone thing people don't want to
talk about, unless it's kind ofa joke saying, oh well, you kids
are going to have to be the oneto clean out the house or
something similar, and everybodyjust sort of laughs and goes on
.
I have some experience, havingdealt with the end-of-life
(01:10):
process in my family, but trulynot enough to talk about it on a
comfortable level.
That's why I'm so glad you'rehere, because I think a lot of
us can benefit from it.
If you don't mind just startingus off at the beginning, what
is a death doula?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
A death doula is somebody that provides
completely non-medical care.
So we're not nurses, we're notdoctors, even though sometimes
nurses and doctors will becomedeath doulas.
That's not what we do.
As a death doula, we provideemotional, spiritual and
physical support for peoplearound the end of life.
You don't have to be dying toutilize a death doula.
(01:48):
You can use us at any stage oflife to help you prepare
yourself for what you would wantat the end of life, to ask some
of the hard questions, to havethe conversations with your
family members, so that this way, whenever the end of life does
happen, everybody feels a littlebit more prepared, they're a
(02:09):
little bit more relaxed, alittle more comfortable, because
you know what you want, you'vecommunicated what you want and
your family members don't haveto be stressed and anxious, not
knowing what it is that you want.
So really, everybody can use adeath doula, even though we will
often sit with people at theend of life what they will
sometimes say sitting vigil.
(02:29):
So we will work with familiesand, as somebody's actively
dying, we will go and sit withthe family members.
We will sit with the personthat's dying to kind of help
through that process, butthere's so much more that goes
into death doula work thanactually just sitting with
somebody that's dying.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
That's fascinating to hear about.
That's really fascinating.
So I was preparing for thisinterview.
One of the things that Inoticed was that I think in the
media especially, death can beportrayed as something that is
usually sudden and it's usuallya terrible loss and possibly
(03:07):
something that could have beenprevented.
And I wonder if those thingsare possibly some of the things
that you have to deal with,because we really don't get a
lot of information aboutpreparing for this stage of life
.
You prepare for a wedding, youprepare for a baby, you prepare
(03:27):
for knee replacements oranything like that, but this is
supposed to be something that wejust face head on.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
And I find it not just with the general population
but even with medical staffthere's not a lot of preparation
for what the actual end of lifelooks like.
That's really how I got intothe work, because when I was
taking care of my grandmother atthe end of her life, they sent
her home on hospice.
I said, okay, I expected it tobe like TV she closes her eyes,
(04:01):
she maybe sleeps a lot, but thatshe was just going to
peacefully die in her sleep.
There was nobody that actuallytalked to me, nobody that
prepared me for the realities ofit.
And we need to have these open,honest conversations.
But they're not happening onany level.
(04:23):
And, like you said, tv we're sofascinated in this culture by TV
shows and movies and evenpodcasts like the real crime
dramas and the people being shotand blown up and like that's
not how most of us are going todie.
Most of us are going to probablyget a diagnosis that then, over
(04:43):
a long period of time, we'regoing to try treatments, that
then eventually we have to getto that point where the
treatments are not workinganymore and we need to have that
conversation.
We need to make that decision toallow ourselves to transition
off of treatment into what theywould consider comfort, care,
keeping people comfortable untilthe moment of death.
(05:05):
But we don't know that becausethat's not what you see in
movies, that's not what you seeon TV, and that is again a lot
of what a death doula does isjust helping to educate within
our communities, educate thegeneral public and also educate
our families that if somebodycalls me and says my mom just
got a diagnosis, we don't knowwhat to expect, we don't know
(05:27):
what to do, we don't know whatquestions to ask.
That's one of the things thatwe can do as death doulas is
just kind of help peopleunderstand how to advocate for
themselves and what they wantand what they need, rather than
going in blind and being likeI'm so overwhelmed right now I
don't even know where to start.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Yeah, yeah, I can certainly see that.
So if I was coming to you as aclient today, and as I am,
somebody that's relativelyhealthy, nothing on the horizon
that would be of concern.
Where would you start me off?
What are some of the thingsthat just anybody walking down
(06:09):
the street might need to knowand start to think about?
Speaker 2 (06:14):
The first place I always start with people is your
paperwork, which is not fun andexciting, but it's important.
There's legal paperwork that,again, as a death doula, I don't
do the legal paperwork, but Iwant to make sure that people
have their wills in place, thatthey have their person.
Essentially, that will make themedical decisions If they've
(06:36):
lost the ability to make themfor themselves and if they say,
no, I don't have anything, okay,great.
So that's where we're going tostart.
We're going to start by havinga conversation and I have a
document that I created, butthere's ones that you can just
get online something like FiveWishes, where you read through.
(06:56):
You have a conversation withsomebody about what's important
to you.
Is it extending life as long aspossible or is it being
comfortable?
Now your answer is going to bedifferent depending on where
you're at.
Right now I'm 45.
I have two young children.
Absolutely, do anythingpossible.
Whether it's a car accident,whether it's a diagnosis of some
(07:17):
type of cancer, we're going todo everything possible so that I
can be around as long aspossible for my children.
Yes, now, when I'm older, that'sgoing to be a different answer.
You know, if I'm 85 or I'm 90and I get a cancer diagnosis, am
I going to want to go throughtreatments that potentially are
going to make me very ill, maybeextend my life a little bit,
(07:41):
but my quality of life is goingto be really low?
I would rather have a yearwhere I feel pretty good, I
could still get around, I couldstill interact with my family
and my friends, versus two yearswhere I'm bed bound and I don't
feel well and I don't have theenergy to do anything because
I'm going through these reallyextensive treatments.
(08:02):
That's why it needs to be aconversation.
There's no right or wronganswer.
It just depends on the person.
That's really where I like tostart with.
Again, everybody, no matterwhat age you are, we need to
think about these things.
Even before my husband and Igot married, we were in our 20s
(08:23):
At the time.
That's when Terri Shiavo, kindof that, was all over in the
news right.
It was all over in the news thatshe had collapsed, she was
being kept alive.
Her husband was saying that'snot what she wanted.
Her parents were sayingsomething else.
And I said to my at that time,my boyfriend I said you know, if
anything like that were to everhappen to me, please, please,
(08:44):
do not keep me on life support,like if they're saying that
there's nothing that can be done, that I'm gonna live like this,
you know, basically in avegetative state, for the rest
of my life.
Please don't let that happen.
But because we weren't married,especially he would have no say
unless we had it down on paper.
And so we did our firstversions of our advanced health
(09:05):
directives when we were in our20s, because you never know, wow
, now again, 25 years later,here I am, 45, healthy, still in
really good condition as far asI know.
I am pretty healthy.
But I still have similar wishes.
But they have changed becausenow we do have children.
Right, things had to change.
(09:26):
So it's gonna be flexible, it'sgoing to be fluid as you go
through different stages of life, and so it's still, even if you
work with a death rule.
It's not like you just sit downand you do this paperwork and
then we say, okay, you're gooduntil you're 90.
Like no, we need to revisitthese things on what we would
consider big life milestones.
(09:47):
Right?
If you get married, if you getdivorced, if you have children,
if you get a diagnosis, thoseare all times when you need to
revisit what your wishes are.
But you're not gonna know whatdecisions you want to make if
you don't understand thedifferent terminologies.
Right, like I'm not a doctor,I'm not a nurse, but part of
(10:08):
what I've done is taken the timeto learn and at least know what
questions you should ask yourdoctor if different things come
up, so that you're makingeducated decisions.
Again, there's no right or wronganswer, but if you're making it
from a place where you feelconfident, because you
understand, then that's muchbetter than being in crisis
(10:29):
because something happens, maybethere is an accident, and
you're like I don't know, I'venever thought about this, I've
never thought about what myspouse wanted.
We never talked about it.
That is not the time to havethat conversation.
You really need to have itearlier on.
And a death tool.
It can just help navigate thatconversation and help it,
(10:50):
because it can be difficult totalk to your loved one about it,
and so that's part of what wecan do is almost like mediate
the conversation, so it's alittle bit more comfortable for
everybody.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense because I could see
wanting that guidance even atthis stage in life where, as far
as I know, everything is okay.
But to have somebody to look towhen things get difficult or
emotional.
Because I love my husband, Ilove my family, I don't want to
(11:25):
think about anything happeningto them.
I don't want to think abouthaving to make these decisions
and yet everybody's going tohave to.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
None of us really want to think about it, right?
Even me, as a death ruler, Iget a little choked up.
I get choked up still when Ithink about the fact that
something could happen to myhusband.
I mean, it's the reality, itcould.
It happens to somebody everyday.
Not thinking about it isn'tgoing to prevent that from
(11:58):
happening to me, but thinkingabout it just makes sure that I
am prepared, if it did happen,as far as what he wants.
But it also gave me a sidebenefit that I didn't expect,
which is I am so much morepresent and appreciative for
every single moment that I havewith my husband and with my
(12:22):
children, in a way that I wasn'tbefore and again, I loved them
and I appreciated them before,but if I was in a rush I might
run out the house and be likesee y'all later and just run out
the door.
Now I try so hard not to do that.
I try to say every single timeI leave the house I love you
guys so much, Like I'll see youwhen I get home.
Y'all are my favorite peopleever.
(12:44):
I really make this consciouseffort so that if something were
to happen to me or somethingwere to happen to one of them,
there would never be thisfeeling of we didn't have that
connection at the end.
Because so often that happens,right?
People leave the house, they'remad at each other, or even if
they're not mad at each other,everybody's just so busy.
(13:05):
We're rush around all the timeand then something happens and
they say oh, you know, I didn'treally say goodbye, I didn't say
I love you I didn't give them ahug or a kiss because I was in
a rush.
So it changed the way that Ilive.
By being okay with the factthat I will die and we will all
(13:25):
die at some point, it doesn'tmean that if something were to
happen, I would be okay with it.
I mean I would still be if myhusband were to die suddenly or
even get a diagnosis right.
I would still be heartbroken, Iwould still struggle, I would
still go through the humanemotions, but I wouldn't look
back with regret thinking, wow,I wasted so much time because
(13:49):
I've really spent the last fewyears being as fully present
with all of my loved ones and Ididn't used to do that before.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Yeah, I can see that.
Like I said, I had someexperience with death in my
family.
So I think that you have thatknowledge after a certain point
in time, that it is going tohappen and you do hang on a
little more closely to thepeople that are there.
But there are still so manythings that I don't know about
it.
I mean, you said paperwork andI was like, oh right, yeah,
(14:23):
that's all I knew about it.
If you asked me what forms doyou need for something like this
, I wouldn't be able to tell you.
So it's really so fascinatingto hear it from your perspective
.
And this may be a little out oforder in terms of questions,
but I just I have to ask becausethere's so much sadness around
(14:43):
it Do you ever find that there'slightness and happiness and
laughter around death?
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Oh, definitely.
Again, it seems unusual, butthere's some people that when
they reach this stage where theyknow for sure that they're
dying and they're workingthrough some of these things,
there actually is joy, there ishappiness, there is this feeling
of you know, okay, I'm readyfor this.
It's time I could actuallyrelax, finally, I could stop
(15:12):
fighting, I could stop trying todo all of these things.
Family members I've seen peoplein rooms, you know, playing
music together and singing andyou know holding hands and
connecting in ways that theyhadn't connected.
I've talked to people thatthey're like I was closer to my
mother at the end of her lifethan I ever was, because I was
(15:35):
showing up and we were togetherand we were having conversations
that we were never able to have.
Because our walls kind of comedown right, Like there's this
facade that we keep up thisstrength.
You know all these things thatwe walk through life, that for a
lot of people, as they near theend of life, they can let that
(15:56):
down and so they actuallyconnect with people so much more
deeply than they did in theirnormal day-to-day life.
So there really is a lot ofbeauty at the end of life.
We just don't hear about it asmuch.
We don't talk about it, but,again, we don't really talk
about death that much.
So it's not like you reallyhear people sharing their
(16:20):
experiences.
You know, even for me with mygrandmother, you know, there was
times when I was sitting up atnight with her and she was
talking about these like womenthat were in the room and they
were singing to her and you know, and I'm not seeing these
people, but I loved that.
I was like really, and I'm likewhat do they look like?
Like what are they singing toyou?
What is it Like?
(16:40):
I was really curious and wewere having these beautiful
conversations and it was twoo'clock in the morning while I
was like sitting up with her andI wouldn't trade that
experience really for anything.
And, yeah, there was somedifficult moments, but the
difficult moments, honestly,were my fear and my confusion,
(17:00):
because I didn't understand,because I had nobody to really
say to me oh no, it's okay, thisis normal, this is natural,
this is what happens.
If I would have known that, Icould have relaxed so much more.
So my hardest moments actuallywouldn't have been as hard,
because I would have understoodwhat was going on rather than
(17:23):
just being like here you go.
Grandma's going home on hospice, good luck.
And that was it, and I was likeoh, all right, I will figure it
out as I go, and I did.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Yeah, we were very fortunate that we had hospice
too.
We had inpatient hospice andeverybody there was amazing.
But it's still a lot of time onyour own with your family
member and I think that beingable to have somebody there that
you could ask questions of,whether it's as simple as what
(17:56):
is this medicine that they'regiving, or where do you go to
get a Diet Coke, All that stuffthat's just the human part of
being around.
I would have wonderfullybenefited from something like
that.
I think what are some of themain questions you get from
people or families that you'reworking through?
If they are near the end of life, either with themselves or with
(18:19):
a family member.
What are some of the mostcommon things that you hear?
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Oh man, there's honestly a wide range of things
that I've heard A lot of.
It is that people really doquestion what they believe is
gonna come after this.
Right, there's, there's.
(18:43):
No matter how much somebody hasfaith when they're really
facing the end of life, I do geta lot of questions about it and
I try to do things in a way ofI try to listen 90% of the time
and talk only 10%.
So a lot of times I'll askquestions back well, what do you
(19:05):
think is gonna happen?
What did your family think wasgonna happen?
You know, I'll ask the familymembers a lot of times as
they're preparing for somebody'sactual transition, the end of
life transition.
They will have questions tooabout you know, what's?
What can I expect?
What is it gonna sound like?
What is it gonna look like?
(19:26):
Are they gonna be in pain?
You know, what can I expect theend of life to actually look
like?
And there is some common thingsthat people have happened, but
it doesn't happen to everybody.
You know, everybody is a littlebit different, just like with
birthing, right Like birth tollsand death tolls.
We have a lot of similaritiesand, just like when you have
(19:46):
babies, there's some things thathappen, but it doesn't happen
with everybody and everybody'sbirth experience is different,
and so we can prepare people asmuch as possible.
But a lot of it for me reallyhas just been listening to
people talk about their life,about their experiences, about
(20:07):
their fears, and then they willsometimes ask a question and a
lot of it will be like is thisweird?
Is this weird that I'm talkingabout this?
Is it weird that I feel thisway?
Yeah, you know like, and that'swhat I'm like.
No, all of this is valid theanger, the sadness, the relief,
(20:27):
the gratitude, right Things thatpeople are like.
Why am I feeling these emotions?
All of it's normal, all of it'snatural and that's really more.
What I'm there to do is justkind of hold the space for
people to process on their ownwhat they're feeling and what
they're going through.
(20:48):
But I've had some reallybeautiful conversations with
people that are dying and, again, in a lot of cases there's not
the fears that I expected,there's not the sadness that I
expected.
In a lot of cases, especiallyif somebody's older, like I'm
kind of ready, you know, likeI'm ready for this, like let's,
(21:10):
let's just keep me comfortable.
You know, thanks for sittingwith me, thanks for holding my
hand, you know, thanks for beinghere with me.
But they're not necessarily asafraid as you would think.
But then some people of courseare, and again, usually that's
more, they're afraid of theunknown.
They're afraid that they'rebeing a burden on their family
(21:33):
members.
Right, they're, the fears thatthey're having aren't really
about them, it's the unknownsand how it's affecting the other
people in their life.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
So I want to take a step back,actually, now that we plunged
right into the middle of, youknow, being with a family member
or being the family member thatmight be going through this,
and you know, you weren't alwaysa death doula, you started off
as a chef correct.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
That is correct.
Yeah, that's my background.
I've been in food service sinceI was 16 and I'm 45 now, so you
can do the math on that one.
It's been a really long timesince I've been in food service
and I loved it.
I mean, I've worked inrestaurants, hotels.
I owned my own bakery cafewhere we would do wedding cakes
(22:24):
and breads and soups and saladsand coffees and I taught.
Most recently I taught a jobtraining program where I would
teach people culinary baking anda class called serve safe,
which is how to not get you sickwhen they're making your food
very important class yes right,and so that's where most of my
(22:47):
career was spent, which did meanthat then I had a little
imposter syndrome when I waskind of coming into this new
career right, where I was like,why I'm just a cook, why is
anybody gonna want to know whatI have to say or what I can do?
But I think in some ways itactually was a positive thing
that I came into this as anoutsider, because I was able to
(23:11):
see some of the places where Icould really help fill the holes
in what's already existingbetween hospice and doctors and
nurses and even assisted livings, right, rehab centers, all
these different things that werealready there.
I was like, oh, I see now wherethey need a little extra help.
So it actually worked out well.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
You know that's so true, and again I'll go back and
blame the media.
For another thing is that we'realso kind of led to believe
that being a beginner isn't agood thing, that either.
You're supposed to jump rightin and be a flash and learn
everything in the first fiveminutes and leap ahead.
But if you're kind of goingthrough things you know slowly
(23:57):
but surely and learning thingsand having to learn them again,
you are somehow not doing itright.
And there's such a focus onachievement when actually, by
learning, coming from you know,a different viewpoint, coming
from a different level ofexperience that you actually
(24:18):
have vantage might not be thefirst 10 second advantage, but
it certainly will be the thirdweek or the fourth week
advantage because you haveexperience that you can just lay
on top of everything thatyou're learning right now so.
I know you mentioned that yougot into end-of-life care
because of your grandmother had.
Had anything else been pullingyou towards that particular type
(24:42):
of career, or was it justbecause your own grandmother did
care?
Speaker 2 (24:47):
I think, actually, that I've been meant to do this
work my entire life, becauseeven as a child, one of the
things that my grandmother and Iused to do together we would go
to there was a local veteranhome and then there was also a
local Catholic kind of likerehab hospice center that my
(25:07):
grandmother and I would govolunteer at, and I remember her
telling me even, you know, whenI was in high school, we, we
would do this, since I was achild, all the way until I
graduated high school.
I would go with her aroundholidays and we would sing and
give out rosaries and takepeople to mass, like, do
whatever we needed to do, andshe would say to me, you would
go into the rooms that everybodyelse was afraid of and you
(25:31):
would go up to the people andyou would just talk to them and
you'd hold their hand, like whenyou were really little and I
was like really and I was likeokay, and because I knew that I
was doing it as an adult, but Ididn't have that recollection
that I was naturally doing this.
It didn't scare me, I wasn'tafraid of it.
They look like the people thatneeded me the most, but I never
(25:54):
considered actually it's notreally true.
I did consider becoming adoctor and then I was told at
one point that I was too stupidto become a doctor.
Right, could you imagine.
But it's okay because my pathworked out well.
But I did actually want to be adoctor at one point and then
put it off to the side, ended upworking in a bakery, kind of
(26:15):
went on that whole path and thenwhen I took care of my
grandmother, that's when again Ikind of revisited it and I
thought maybe I want to be ahospice nurse, like I think
that's work I could really do.
But I had a bakery, I had a sixmonth old at the time.
Life just kind of kept moving.
But then this job trainingprogram that I teach I work with
(26:38):
people that have oftentimescome from very traumatic
situations.
So there is a lot of death,there's drug overdoses, there's
shootings, there's stabbings.
I mean I've had students thathave told me stories about the
things that they've witnessed.
I've had students die.
(26:58):
I've found somebody who had drugoverdosed, like I mean I really
was coming across it so much inmy work, but again it was
pulling me towards it.
It wasn't scaring me, it wasn'tpushing me away.
I was like this is a need.
This is what people really needsupport with Telling the
(27:19):
stories that they needed to tell, that they needed to get out,
and not having somebody getuncomfortable and run away and
try to stop the conversation orchange it to a different topic.
I just sat with it and Ibreathed and I just opened my
heart so that they can feel thatsomebody was there to hear them
and to support them.
(27:41):
And so again I thought I wasgonna teach baking, when really
I kind of was doing somethingelse, and so it was kind of
pulling me again down that path.
And so when I really wasgetting close to being about 40
years old and I thought I don'tthink I can be in a kitchen
until I'm 65.
Like I've done this a long timealready, you know, the older I
(28:03):
get, the harder it's gonna be onmy body.
I'm standing, I'm unloadingtrucks, like I'm getting things
out of the oven, like that areabove my head and way half as
much as me.
Like I just physically don'tthink I could do this.
And then I heard the term deathdoula and I was like that's it.
Like as soon as I heard it andthe guy and there's actually not
(28:25):
many men in it but the person Ihappened to hear on a podcast
was a man.
As he started explaining whathe did, I was like that's it,
that's it, that's what I'msupposed to do, that's what I'm
here for.
And so I think I actuallystarted this work when I was a
child.
I just didn't know it until Iwas about 40.
(28:45):
Then I actually really made theeffort.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
That's so interesting because it's so amazing, I
think, whatever path you take inlife and career, how you look
back after a little while.
You're like no, I was alwayssupposed to end up here, even
though I planned to be afantastic lawyer or an amazing
politician, but somehow itturned around and I'm here and
(29:11):
those skills I had them feedinto the skills I have now, and
I just think that's amazing andvery cool when we have that
realization.
So what was it like for youwhen you began working as a
doula?
Speaker 2 (29:25):
It's so I love the work that I do.
It's hard to get the work andit's partially because it's new
enough that people don't knowwhat it is right.
So even today, there's a localhospital by me that I'm gonna
start volunteering with andagain, this is a hospital.
(29:45):
They have a palliative careteam.
It's actually a trauma hospital, so they have a lot of death
and dying and the volunteercoordinator said I have never
heard of a death doula until wegot your email and I was like,
well, here we go.
So she looked it up, sheresearched it, we had a long
conversation about it, and sopeople just don't know that we
(30:06):
exist, they don't know what wedo, they don't know how and when
to utilize us.
So, as much as I can say like Ilove doing the work, I haven't
done as much of it as I wouldreally like to, especially at
you know I started in July of2020.
And this is now what?
(30:26):
January of 2024.
So it's been quite a few yearsnow and I am slowly getting
clients that I'm working with,but it's really just been a
process of educating peopleabout what it is that I do to
try and bring on the clients.
And it's okay, right, like,it's fine, I'm in it for the
(30:48):
long haul.
And I think in some ways it'sactually been great, because if
I would have just immediatelygotten clients doing what I
thought I was gonna do, whichwas sitting with people at the
end of life, preparing them andtheir families, right Like
having a client hire me on, I gothrough the whole process with
them, I potentially would havenever looked into hospitals.
(31:08):
But now I've been volunteeringalready at another hospital
that's further north, so it'sover an hour away from me, and I
actually found that I reallylike hospital settings.
I like kind of working withpeople in shorter bursts, kind
of going through supporting themwhen they really need support,
because maybe the doctor justcame in and said, hey, we can't
(31:31):
continue treatment, this is it,and then the person's like, oh
well, now, what do I do withthis?
And their family members arelike, what do I do with this
information?
And so I actually have foundthat I really like working in
hospitals.
I don't necessarily want towork in like a hospice type
(31:51):
setting.
So it's been an interestingjourney for me to kind of figure
out where I fit, and I also amfinding too that I do like
educating, and so I am startingto become more of like a paid
speaker where I will go intodifferent businesses.
(32:13):
I do some classes myself online.
I do some classes myself inperson around all different
topics.
It could be grief, it could bedeath and dying.
I have caregiver courses that Ikind of work with people to
train caregivers so that theyunderstand what's going on.
It goes back to my teachingroots, right Of what I've just
done for the last 10 years of mylife, and so I'm really finding
(32:36):
that I love doing that andthat's when I started the
podcast, because I love to talkto people and so there's
definitely a lot of differentthings that I didn't think I was
gonna do when I did my training.
That I realized and it's notjust me, I mean, it is other
death dwellers we're just kindof not at a point yet culturally
where we can make enough moneyto support ourselves.
(33:00):
If we're just gonna do like thekind of death that all the work
that most of us were trained todo, we have to kind of branch
out.
And that's okay, because I'mactually finding a lot of things
that I didn't expect that nowI'm really enjoying and I'm
finding there's a need andpeople really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
So yeah, I love teaching too, and I've had a
similar experience to yours, inthat you start out by thinking,
oh, can you actually teach aclass about this?
And then you discover that, yes, you can, and it is needed, and
that's always the most fun,because you're going with
information that nobody elseknows about, and that's why
(33:40):
you're so needed.
So I do wanna ask you aquestion that might be some
people might roll their eyes atit, but I would say for
listeners, regardless ofreligion or spirituality or
atheism or whatever, do you findthat people find comfort as
(34:01):
they're getting towards the endof their life, or they're with a
family member that's gettingtowards the end of their life,
or is that just something welike to think?
Speaker 2 (34:11):
I have really seen both where some people really
turn to their spirituality atthe end of life, and it does
bring them comfort, it bringsthem a sense of peace.
Some people will start off asatheists and will turn to a
(34:31):
religion at the end of lifewhich, you know I don't know if
that's just a function of it'sbetter to believe and be wrong
than not believe and be wrong.
Right, maybe there's some ofthat happening.
Maybe it is just some of thenatural human ability or human
(34:52):
desire, I guess, to want tobelieve in something, and some
people almost go the other way,where they're like I was.
You know, I believe this thingmy entire life and now I'm not
so sure and I'm okay not beingsure.
And again, that's why I lovethis kind of stuff, because I
(35:14):
love having these conversationswith people about what it is
they're.
You know they're thinking andexpecting and you know sometimes
they're more willing to sharesome of their weirder thoughts
and weirder beliefs becausethey're like I'm dying anyway,
so what do I care if this ladythinks I'm weird and so I think
we're going to go to anotherplanet when we die and I'm like
amazing.
(35:34):
I think that sounds really cooland a lot of times people want
to ask me what I believe and I'mlike, honestly, I don't know.
I really don't know what Ibelieve and I'm okay with that.
Not knowing what I believehappens to us after we die.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
I think a lot of people probably closer to a
majority, you know are not sure,because I know I have what I'd
like to believe and I have whatI'm pretty sure about and but
then there is that not knowingand there is concern and even
(36:16):
fear that can come out of that,because it is a time when you
really, really like to be sureand know that whoever it is, is
going forward into thispredictable situation.
But it is the mostunpredictable of all situations
and you cannot know everythingas much as we'd like to.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
No, and nobody knows for sure.
I don't care what they say,nobody knows for sure.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Yeah, I was reading about you and one of the things
that really caught my eye isthat you not only sit and talk
and answer questions and supportfamily, but you will also do
your best to do some spiritualhealing as well for people that
request.
It Is that?
Tell me a little bit about that, please, of course.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
So it really is more again asking people questions,
not trying to push myspirituality onto them.
That's usually where I kind ofstart, and one of the things
that I like to do is kind ofwhat people would call like
energy healing, reiki.
But it's my own way of doing it.
(37:27):
But I think Reiki is somethingthat a lot of people are kind of
familiar with, where it's likea guided meditation almost,
where I help people relax theirbodies, I help them relax their
minds, and then I talk themthrough this visualization, this
experience, where it helps tobring them within right, to feel
(37:51):
the sense of calm, to feel thesense of peace, and even some of
the healing also is, you know,the regrets, the shame, the
things that they maybe didn'ttell anybody else but they're
really struggling with it at theend of their life.
I'm there to hear all of itbecause I want people to die
(38:13):
feeling like there's not thoseunsaid, unfinished kind of
things that they maybe can'tfinish with the person right,
and maybe the person's notaround anymore, maybe the person
doesn't want to talk to them.
I mean, there's not much thatwould ever make me flinch that
somebody would say, and so I'mlike it's okay, you can say
(38:35):
anything to me If you need toget it out of you.
I do believe again with thislike energy healing thing that
if we hold these things withinus, they almost cause like
pockets of you know.
We visualize it as like smoke orlike this, like dense kind of
like darker pockets, right, thatthat's what we hold when we
(38:55):
hold the grief and we hold theshame and we hold the trauma,
right.
And if we're holding all of thatbefore we die, I feel like that
is going to make it harder forthe person to transition and so
we need to get it out.
And so I'll use movements, I'lluse again like the guided
meditations, like I'll use justdifferent techniques with people
(39:17):
and have them be able toexpress these things, to come to
a sense of peace withinthemselves so that they're ready
to die.
And sometimes I almost givelike homework, like I have a
client that I work with that Igive them almost like homework
assignments where I'm like allright, let's talk about these
things, but first I want you towrite them out or draw out a
(39:39):
picture of what you think thisthing is right.
I work with everybodyindividually for whatever works
for them to help them process,to help them heal.
So that my goal is is that bythe time they die, they can feel
okay about the fact thatthey're dying, because their
soul is more at peace, and Ifeel that's really probably, to
(40:04):
me, the most important part ofthe work that I do with people.
But it is all interconnected.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Yeah, are you there for people with grief?
Does your work continue to helppeople that are grieving after
a death, or do you tend to juststay within the process itself?
Speaker 2 (40:26):
I do work with grief.
Not all death doulas will Deathdoulas.
We kind of go across thespectrum.
I like to say I'm before,during and after death.
So again, the preparationbefore, the during process, but
then also with the griefafterwards, because a lot of
people that is when they feelyou know, we have all again, we
(40:52):
have the support around us a lotof times as somebody's dying
and then they die and then thepeople that are left behind are
just kind of okay, well, now,what?
Now, what do I do?
I've even talked to people onewoman who was a widow and a
fairly young widow and she saidyou know, they come in, they put
all the equipment out, you knoweverything's in the house, and
(41:13):
then he died.
And then it was like, okay, myhouse is a mess, Everything's
still all over the place.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Right.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
What do I do from here?
You know, like a nail, I havenobody.
My friends aren't really aroundanymore.
I don't have any support.
And so, as a death doula, thatis where I still like to work
with my clients, and I'veactually had clients that I've
only worked with around grief,where they've come to me after a
death.
One woman it was a baby haddied and so I worked with her
(41:44):
for a while.
Another person that was ayounger person, their parent had
committed suicide.
I worked with them for a while.
Again, I don't shy away fromthe really hard stuff.
That's when people need thissupport the most, and so again,
I would kind of do techniqueswith them.
I would do some relaxation,some movement.
I think with grief especially,moving our bodies is so
(42:08):
important.
I try to incorporate all thesenses with grief work because
it's can we just believe.
You want to hold it all in.
We're a, we feel alone.
We feel that sense of peopledon't understand, they don't
want to hear about it anymore.
You know our culture.
They basically give you atimeline.
If it's a child that dies, youhave this much time.
(42:30):
If it's a spouse that does thismuch time, you know like that
it doesn't work that way.
There's no timeline, and so weget this shame and we hold it in
, and so again it's going tostick in our bodies, and so I
like to really incorporate thislike holistic kind of using all
the different senses to workthrough the grief, to be able to
(42:50):
express the grief so that wecan maneuver through the world
in a way that feels a little bitbetter for us, doesn't go away,
but it can get better than whatwe typically do in our culture
when it comes to grief.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Yeah, I saw a lovely little cartoon once about grief
and it was just described.
As you do, grief is a bookcasethat moves into your room and
you don't necessarily want itthere but it's not leaving.
And then one day you put a bookon the bookshelf.
The bookshelf is now servingyou in a little bit and then,
(43:31):
maybe after a while, you put alittle plant on there and then
you know another book and thenmaybe you decide to paint it one
day.
So the bookshelf is not goingaway, but it can become part of
you in a more positive way.
Not to say that the sadnessever goes, but you know that
it's just more, more part of you.
(43:53):
I don't know what the word is,that I'm looking for more part
of you in a comfortable way oran easier way or you know
something, but that you know thebookcase that's moved in with
you is something that can serveto help you to.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
I don't like that.
I've never thought of it thatway, but it's a.
I'm a very visual person, right.
So in my head I'm visualizingthat and I'm like, oh, I really
like that because, you're right,I never going to completely be
gone, and I think one of thethings that I've heard people
say that I really have loved iswhen somebody dies and I've even
(44:36):
heard people say this aboutchildren, which again, part of
me is like I can't imagine.
But after they go through someof the healing process, there's
gratitude for no matter how muchtime they had that person,
whether it was 12 years or 20years or whatever.
It was just this sense ofgratitude that they were in my
(45:00):
life, and it doesn't mean thatthere's this like spiritual
bypassing of it, of like, no,it's wonderful, I'm fine.
But we do tend to sometimes ashumans, right, we get so stuck
in the sadness and the loss andthere's this feeling that if I
(45:21):
quote, unquote move on, it meansI'm okay that they're gone, it
means that I don't miss them, itmeans that I forgot about them,
and that doesn't have to be thecase.
We don't have to get stuck inour grief in order to feel like
we're honoring the person.
We can still be grateful forany time that we have with them.
We can still celebrateanniversaries, we can still
(45:43):
create rituals around.
You know things that they enjoydoing and we enjoy doing with
them.
So now, once a year, we do it,still in a very ritualistic way.
But, not be stuck in it so thatday to day we just can't
function.
So we can work with griefbetter than we do.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
I think that's a wonderful place to kind of bring
this to a close for now.
But if you had to choose, likea piece of advice that you
wanted to leave our listenerswith, you know number one piece
of advice from jail to death tolove, is there something that
leaps to your mind in particular?
Speaker 2 (46:25):
My biggest thing is.
I tell people often to juststart the conversations with
your loved ones in small ways.
It doesn't have to be a big.
Let's sit down and talk aboutdeath and talk about all these
things.
Just start the conversation andjust be like, hey, have you
(46:47):
ever thought about the end oflife?
You know, have you ever thoughtabout what you would want after
you die?
Do you want to be cremated ordo you want to be buried?
Like, just like littleconversations.
Just get the conversationstarted, because once you start
it will get easier.
It's just that fear of evenstarting it stops so many people
(47:09):
.
So you don't have to dive intothe pool.
Just dip your toes in a littlebit and just start it a little,
and then you can work from there.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
All right, that sounds good.
I can hang on to that, I think,and I hope our listeners can
too.
Jill, tell us a little bitabout how people can get in
touch with you if they areinterested, because you do some
virtual sessions as well asin-person work.
Is that correct?
That is correct.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
I do work virtually and in-person, and I do, again
work with people before, duringand after death.
I work with caregivers as well.
So if you are caring forsomebody, or even you know, we
all have parents that are aging,if we have our parents still
around, we're gonna have tonavigate this at some point.
So I'm happy to support peoplethrough any of that, and my
(47:59):
business name is End of LifeClarity.
That's my website, that's whatI am on all social media,
whether it's Instagram or TikTokor Facebook, whatever it is.
But even on Facebook, peopleare welcome to friend me.
I'd like to have conversationswith people you know right on
Facebook.
It's kind of a nice way tointeract, but you could reach
(48:20):
out to me on any of thoseplatforms and I'm happy to talk
to people.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
That's great.
We'll make sure that we getthose in the show notes as well.
Thank you for everyone.
No problem, jill.
Thank you so much for beinghere today.
Thank you for kind of carryingme through this conversation,
and I know my experience.
Inexperience is showing andyeah cannot thank you enough.
Everybody is just Jill atendoflifeclaritycom.
(48:46):
We'll have all of ourinformation in the show notes,
and thank you for taking on thistopic with us.
It's definitely a tough one,but I'm certainly leaving
feeling more relaxed and alittle more uplifted than I was
when we started, so I appreciatethat.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
Wonderful Well, thank you so much, it was my pleasure
.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
Thank you to our listeners for today.
I want to shout out Atlanta,georgia, manassas, virginia and
BelmaPen Hope I got that rightin Belize.
Thank you so much.
I see you.
I appreciate you, lookingforward to seeing you on our
next show.
But if you're enjoying theseepisodes, please leave us a
rating and a review on yourfavorite podcast platform.
(49:27):
Really helps the show out.
Thanks so much for being heretoday.
We'll see you next time.
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