Have you ever felt lost in your relationships, struggling to communicate effectively? In this captivating episode, we had the pleasure of speaking with Ann Visser, a life coach, speaker, and trainer at 4better4ever.com, and certified John Maxwell coach. Ann shares her personal journey of learning to communicate better in her marriage, and how those skills have carried over into other aspects of her life. Listen in as we explore the impact of external pressures and internal conflict avoidance on our relationships, and the importance of empathy and understanding.
Diving into the realm of attachment theory, Ann provides insight into the different attachment styles in relationships and their effect on communication. We discuss the challenges of staying vulnerable in conversation and how it may take multiple attempts to get our message across. Moreover, we explore the value of listening and the power it holds in fostering connection and understanding.
Lastly, we touch on the role of communication in the workplace, highlighting the importance of healthy employee attachments and prioritizing relationship-building over competition. It will leave you feeling inspired and equipped to tackle any communication challenges that come your way. Don't miss this episode as we delve into Ann's experiences and insights on nurturing meaningful connections in our lives.
This is a show where ideas come together. The guest statements expressed on The Savvy Communicator Podcast are their own and not necessarily the views of The Savvy Communicator.
Thanks for joining us! Become part of the conversation at www.savvycommunicator.com, and follow me on social media: my handle is @savvycommunicator.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Savvy Communicator podcast.
Today, our expert guests willhelp us dive deep into
relationships.
What are the five links in love?
This is a place where wediscuss all things communication
, talking, facial expressions,body language and, most
importantly, how to talk whenyou're not sure what to say.
(00:21):
I'm your host, amy Flanagan,and today I'd like to say hello
to our expert guest, mrs AnneVisser, and welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Hello, Amy, It's good to see you again and thank you
for having me on the SavvyCommunicator podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Thank you so much.
We're really glad to have youhere.
So Anne is a life coach, aspeaker and trainer with For
Better Forever, as well as acertified John Maxwell coach,
speaker and trainer, so we'revery lucky to have you here
today.
I appreciate that.
I know you're going to tell uswhat some of that means in just
a minute.
A lot of times we only hearabout communication as it
relates to the business world,as in how to communicate with
(00:57):
your boss, for example, but whathas been your experience in
becoming a speaker and trainerspecifically about communication
?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Well, i am passionate about communication because of
my own personal story and I'mpassionate to equip others to
communicate in a way that alignswith their values, because I
think we're happier withourselves tomorrow if we
communicate in a way that alignswith their values today.
But it's really because of myown story and the struggles that
we had in our marriage.
(01:26):
It has been as I have beenteaching and training for over
20 years.
I've realized that the skillsthat I learned within my
marriage and then helped otherpeople to learn new skills
within their relationships andtheir intimate relationships in
particular, i discovered thatthese skills are so incredibly
(01:46):
transferable and that they'renot soft skills or actually
incredibly essential skills tobe able to get along, whether
it's at home or whether it's atwork.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Yes, absolutely Absolutely.
Tell us more about your story.
How did this start for you?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
So I met a young man when I was 15 and I chased him
Really shamelessly, just chankedhim, just give me a date.
I was writing him notes in hisdesk and leaving them in his
desk at school And three yearslater I did get a date.
Three years later we married.
(02:25):
That's fantastic.
We were so passionate and crazyin love.
Honestly, amy And thephotographer said to us on that
day I've never seen a couplelook at each other the way the
two of you look at each other.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Oh crazy, That's wonderful Yes.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
One month after we were married I was pregnant and
very, very sick On the couchcouldn't move, kind of sick.
And that's a rough way to startmarriage And then fast forward.
we had five children in sixyears.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
And then, on top of that, my husband is a farmer.
He was working long hours.
I often felt like a single momAnd so very quickly we had these
external pressures pressing inon us.
But then we had the internalpressures, because I wasn't
communicating well, he wasn'tcommunicating well, we both have
conflict, we didn't want tofight And of course that doesn't
(03:27):
work very well, but we didn'tknow that.
We thought we were doing a goodthing, but actually avoiding
that Just builds resentment Andit's not good for a relationship
.
And so this being separate andthis grew in our relationship.
And so we got to the pointwhere we were sitting in our
farm truck on a date and Ilooked at him and I said I can't
(03:49):
do this anymore.
I said we just keep hurtingeach other.
He said what do you mean?
you can't do this anymore.
And I said I can't do marriagelike this anymore.
I said we just keep hurtingeach other.
We go around and around thesame old thing.
We don't ever resolve anythingAnd I'm so hurt and I'm so tired
.
And that lingered in his heartin a different way, and he
(04:11):
shared his pain with me.
I missed his pain.
I was so busy caring for ourchildren and all those little
needs and trying to keep upmyself with physical and
emotional needs of little onesthat I missed his pain entirely.
But that night he shared veryvulnerably and honestly about
(04:33):
how he was feeling and what washappening for him, and we both
looked at each other and said,okay, we need to get the help
that we need in order to getwell again, and so that was like
a pivotal conversation in ourrelationship that put me on a
personal growth journey.
That put us on a relationshipgrowth journey in order to be
(04:55):
better together, and a big partof that was learning to
communicate and learning how toconflict in a way that will
actually pull us closer togetherinstead of driving us further
apart, which is what it wasdoing.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Wow, that's so meaningful to hear you say that,
because I have to say I don'thave children.
I have seven nephews and oneniece.
But I have experienced similarthings in my own marriage in
that and in communication ingeneral, because it's just like,
well, I'm talking to you, Soaren't you hearing the exact
things that I'm trying to say,Am I not?
(05:30):
I'm feeling so much.
How am I not saying exactlywhat I'm feeling?
How are you not hearing exactlywhat I'm feeling?
And so that really resonateswith me to hear you say that.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Yeah, and then they say it back to you.
It was like wait a minute,that's not what I said.
How did you get that out ofthis?
That is not what I said.
Let's go back.
We learned to talk when we'reso little, like two and some.
We learned to talk And youwould think that if we learn at
(06:04):
such a young age how to talk,that we would be better at
communication.
But communication is so muchmore than the speaking, and
there are so many important,essential communication skills
that we need that are reallytransferable, whether they're in
our relationship with a home orwith friends or with family
(06:25):
members or the network as well,and we need to be able to
communicate in a way so thatother people can understand us,
receive the information and themessage, because the information
is heard of it, there's amessage in it as well, and the
experience of whatever it isthat's happening in the moment.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yes, i absolutely agree with you.
It's part of the reason why Istarted this podcast, because I
think all of us we need to knowmore about how to communicate,
whether that's how to be awareof what it is we're expressing,
whether it's our facialexpressions or our body language
(07:06):
, or what we're verbally sayingto someone else to be able to
have that knowledge and then tohave that responsibility.
So, that when it goes wrong,we're able to say, okay, let's
take a minute.
This isn't what I met, but Iunderstand that.
this is what you heard And,yeah, it's very important to me
as well.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
And so much is said outside of the words that we
speak, so much is said in thatbody language that you spoke
about.
so much.
Whether we're just walking bysomebody and we touch them and
there's an expression there ofconnection, an expression oh, i
like you, an expression of Iwant you, whether the way we
greet each other it's soimportant the way we touch one
(07:49):
another, and then it'sappropriate and then it's kind.
I mean, we're having sexbusiness people.
When we meet each other, thefirst thing we do is shake hands
as an expression of buildingtrust, and this is who I am like
.
An openness to that of this iswho I am and of an introduction
to maybe there's something here,a connection where we can work
(08:12):
together.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Yes, yes, absolutely.
In fact, that's one of the isit the five pillars or the five
links that you teach abouttouches one of them?
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Yes, it is.
And so I teach a program calledHow to Avoid Falling for a Jerk
, and I just love this program.
It is so powerful.
It's a five week program.
It's based on attachment theory.
It's been written by Dr JohnVenet, but I'm licensed to teach
it.
And it is.
(08:45):
it's based on the attachmentmodel And there are five links
in love and every link isimportant to love and
relationship.
The five links are to know,which is so incredibly important
.
When I know how to approach you, when I know where you're
hurting, your pain is, I knowhow to talk to you, how to speak
(09:06):
with you about a certain topic.
If I know that a certain topicis going to be challenging for
you, but I know that we need totalk about it, then I'm going to
approach a little bitdifferently than if I know oh,
this is no big deal, but we doneed to talk about it.
It's going to be a differentapproach.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yes, Because I know you Yes.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
I can approach it differently.
The second link is to trust,and trust is so paramount to
relationships.
It gives us a sense of securityin the relationship because I
know who you are, what you'reabout, what's important to you,
and you've built that trust.
I don't have any questions.
There's a.
I don't have any questionsabout where you are or what
you're doing, because I know youand I trust you.
(09:41):
So links are all connected toone another.
And then third link is to rely.
The fourth is to commit.
Commitment is I belong to youand you belong to me, not in
that sick sense of ownershipThat's.
That's sick and that's nothealthy, but in the sense of
whether we're together or not,we're still together.
Yes, and the commitment thatI've made to you, whether it's
(10:02):
as a friend, so I'm not going totalk behind your back or I'm
not going to tell your story tosomeone else, it's your story
and you can uncommitted to youin that, or whether it's a
commitment that you've made to apartner that I am.
This is my exclusiverelationship with you And you're
the one that I share thingswith.
(10:24):
You're the one who knows moreabout me than anyone else in the
world And we have that mutualcommitment for one another.
And the last link in love andattachment is to touch, and so
each of these links are onsliders, which I love, and
that's why it's a picture oflove, exactly.
And so, as I'm teaching thecourse, i tell stories and I
have my clients put therelationship on the model, and
(10:49):
even as you tell the story, therelationship may change.
Like, for instance, i learnedsomething about you that I don't
like, so I know more and mytrust was up here.
But now that I know more andsomething that I don't like,
you've spoken about me behind myback or whatever, which I just
had a conversation with somebodylately about that Trust falls.
Right, yes, trust falls.
(11:10):
And then I don't know if I canreally depend on you, which is
reliance.
And then, how committed are youto me in this relationship?
And no, heck, no, i'm nottouching you.
So links are impacted by theother links, and so this is a
program for singles.
It's so incredibly valuable.
I have been teaching thisprogram for over 10 years now
(11:32):
And it's transferable, it goes.
I've taken it into jail, i'vebeen able to take it into a
recovery home for addicts,because relationships are
essential for their sobriety Andto know to value themselves.
This is about value yourselfright To put yourself in a
relationship with people who aretruly trustworthy, who are
(11:54):
value you and appreciate you forwho you are.
And so I've been able to takeit into schools, And now I'm
teaching it virtually to singlesagain.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
That is wonderful.
One of the things that justjumped out at me is talking
about value.
I think that taking the time tolearn about communication
really does come back to a senseof value in yourself.
A lot of times we don't realizethat we're not valuing
(12:28):
ourselves when we just plunge inand say, well, i'm going to say
this and hopefully it will comeout the way I want.
at the other end, we think thatif we're being genuine, then we
don't need to practice.
If we practice something, thenit must not be genuine.
Both of those things reallystand out to me, based on what
(12:50):
you just said.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Isn't that so true that we think that if, oh man,
if I have to practice this, thenit's not really authentic to
who I am or how important it isto be able to practice, because
we think so many thoughts in therun of the day and not all of
the thoughts are true and notall of the thoughts are helpful
and not all of our thoughts aregood or healthy.
(13:15):
So, to be able to sort throughokay, if I say it this way, and
I know who you are and I knowthat this is going to and Dr
John Gottman says that the firstfew minutes, the way you start
a conversation, will determinethe outcome, and so he can
predict up to 93% if thatrelationship is going to survive
(13:37):
or not, or if it's going tothrive.
By the way, that we communicateand, by the way, we start a
conversation And so if I knowthat this is a pain point for
you and I just plunge in anddon't practice and don't think
of it what I'm going to say andjust say, well, what I have to
say is really important and youneed to hear what I'm going to
say.
For the relationship in thelong run which I I increase my
(13:59):
people what is the goal of yourrelationship?
What is the goal of yourrelationship?
So then that kind of tempers,what I say in the relationship
Yes, the goal is connection Thenmaybe this is something I
really need to talk about,because I feel like you're not
respecting me here.
But then how I approach thatconversation will determine what
I know about you.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Yes, He's the scientist that has observed I
don't know thousands of couplesspeak to each other just on
innocuous topics, And that'swhere he gets his 93% accuracy
rating on whether or not theystay together.
Are we thinking of the same?
Speaker 2 (14:37):
person Yes.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Well, it's renowned.
Anyone else who has so muchresearch based on the
physiological happenings withina conversation between couples,
he has more information, moretheory based on research between
couples, and that's where hiswork comes from.
(14:59):
It was very powerful.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Yes, i remember reading Blink by Malcolm
Gladwell, and he's mentioned inthere, along with Dr Paul Ekman,
who did some of the seminalwork on facial expressions, and
those two scientists got me muchmore interested in the field of
communication And that's whereI started learning more on that.
So it's wonderful that youmentioned him, because I was
(15:23):
really taken by his work.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I was going to say.
we often think aboutcommunication skills as soft
skills And we often think aboutthem as oh, I'll get to that
later.
I'll look after that later.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Let me really dive in this important information, yes
, yes, and I think that thereare so many times where we
assume that it's going to goright, that it's so simple, it
has to go right, and so much ofcommunication really is a trial
and error process And I think,just like you said, we learn to
(15:58):
talk at such a young age.
Well, we also learn at such ayoung age hey, if I don't do it
this way and get what I want,maybe I'll try it this way to
get what I want.
And while we're at such a youngage, willing to try different
things to find success, weforget that as we get older And
we forget that it might take twoor three attempts to get
(16:21):
through what I'm trying to say,and that's all right, that's
okay.
We're not doing it to bemanipulative, the way little
ones try to do sometimes, but wehave to do it because we're
communicating with somebody thatisn't necessarily on the same
wavelength that we are.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
I love how you're talking about it as a journey.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Yes, Yes, absolutely, and the journey is different
for us, with different people.
Yes, yes, it absolutely is.
And what I think is alsointeresting is that, because
it's a trial and error process,a lot of times if we try and we
don't succeed, it can be veryfrightening for us And we pull
(17:01):
back and say, well, i'm notgoing to try that again because
it didn't work out the way Ithought it was going to work.
And if we try and succeed,often we don't know how we did
it And so there's nothing torely on when it comes time to do
that again Again.
Whether it's in a personalrelationship, whether it's at
work, we're trying to stand upfor ourselves and get what we
need, whether it's in afriendship, and we want to say,
(17:22):
hey, don't talk behind my back,we don't have anything to rely
on because we're not sure how wedid it the first time And we're
afraid to do it again becausewe're afraid it might not work.
And so this training that you'retalking about and really
working through and practicingand I love the visual aspect of
the sliders I think is soimportant because, like any
(17:45):
learning, if you are able to,some people are visual learners,
some people are auditorylearners and you're crossing
those boundaries And that'sreally great.
So, if you don't mind goingback for just a second.
I wanted to know if you wouldtalk to us a little bit about
attachment theory that yourprogram is based on, because
some people may not be familiarwith it.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Well, attachment theory it happens as babies
already, in the way that weattach and bond to our parents
or don't bond to our parents,and so there are different
styles of attachments.
So there's an aggressiveattachment where you try to get
your needs met by stepping allover everyone else because
(18:29):
you're safe and you don't, youdisregard other people, and so
it's often thought about asaggressive, as being physically
aggressive, but it can also beemotionally aggressive in the
way that you're crossing overeveryone else's boundary lines
to get what you think you needAnd it turns everybody off.
(18:52):
You don't get what you needsometimes, or sometimes you get
what you need just by walkingover everybody, but people are
not happy with you by the waythat you walk over, yes, and
then there's like the avoidantattachment style, and that's
where you just avoidconversations.
And this is where we were.
We were avoidant, we did notwanna talk about problems.
I thought it was a good thing,i thought it was healthy to not
(19:16):
fight and not disagree.
I thought we were doing a verygood thing, but in we were
creating space, emotionaldistance and emotional space.
We were not vulnerable.
This is a avoidant style.
You turn away from each otherbecause there's a whole lot of
emotion going on.
You don't know what to do withit And you think that you need
(19:37):
to be independent and kind oflook after yourself instead of
actually being interdependentwith another person and pulling
closer to somebody, even thoughit's hard.
And so you find those, we foundthose emotions.
We were both avoidant and wefound those emotions really,
really hard to be in the roomtogether because they were so
(19:58):
wrong, and so we were threatenedby those emotions from each
other And we would pull apart,kind of get some release.
And that avoidance of coursemakes you feel like you're alone
, it makes you feel like youdon't belong And it makes you
feel like you're not being heardor seen because you can't be
open with them, the other person, about who you are and what's
(20:20):
important to you, what you valueand what you want.
And, of course, the attachmentstyle that we want us to be
assertive and where we get ourneeds met while still not
running over other people butinstead caring for other people.
And when you're with someonewho's in a healthy attachment
(20:43):
you feel valued, but you knowexactly where they are.
You don't have to guess aboutit.
There's no guessing games.
That's kind of the passive,where you're just kind of
guessing about what they want,because they don't say it ever.
but in a healthy attachmentThey clearly state what they
want, who they are, how they'refeeling, and they put it out
there what they want, but theydon't expect that they're gonna
(21:05):
necessarily get what they wantfrom you.
Yes, but they can put it outthere and then they can
negotiate with it.
And when you walk away fromcompetition, you still feel like
you matter.
And this happens in workplacesall the time.
Yes, and I was speaking with ayoung woman who worked in
(21:27):
multiple.
She traveled to multiplebusinesses for work Her boss.
She loved her boss.
It was about relationshiprather than about production.
And then there was a change inleadership And she felt the
leadership was valuingproduction and they wanted more
out of her and they wanted herto go in more places And she
just couldn't keep up with itAnd she was feeling very
(21:50):
frustrated And she said this tome.
She said you know, the funnything is I would have done the
work for my previous bossbecause I knew he'd vote me Yes.
So we'll work our tail off ifwe know that somebody cares,
Because we're in a healthyattachment.
We know that we're feelingvalued by our boss or by the
(22:14):
person that we're working for.
Yes, Yes, you're right.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
We're willing to go so much farther with that when
we're understood Or we knowthere's the potential there to
be understood.
So that's what happened.
Did she decide to move toanother job?
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Yes, very shortly after I had spoken to her, she
decided it was time Because shewasn't feeling valued.
And I honestly think that welose our best people first,
because they understand thatthey're not being valued And
they will be.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
First, nice and kind and agreeable people stay too
long.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Yes, we stay too long when we're too nice and too
agreeable and too kind, becausewe have this incredible hope and
sometimes even a fantasy, thatit's gonna get better.
But people at the top areunhealthy.
They need to do the work.
We can't do the work for them.
They need to work in order tobe well, in order to be healthy
(23:15):
in order to be in healthyrelationships, whether it's at
work or at home, And if yourpeople are suffering at work, if
your people are suffering atwork.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Yes, absolutely, And it just.
I just flashed on an image ofcorporate executives sitting in
a retreat somewhere trying tofigure out how to show their
employees that they're valued,and coming up with pizza parties
and wearing jeans to work dayand doing things like that and
not really being able to connectand communicate because they're
(23:48):
not sure how and you knowthey're missing it.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
They're missing it and what people really want.
I think, amy, what peoplereally want is to be heard.
Even if you can't fix myproblem, if I feel like you've
really listened to what I amstruggling with and if you're
willing to kind of enter intothat problem with me, help me
(24:13):
problem solve, help me workthrough it, then people feel
valued, people feel like youcare, even if you can't make the
problem go away or disappear,and want that.
And I think listening is lost,it's a lost art.
I think we don't listen enoughand I think that's why coaching
(24:33):
has taken off, because, just inthe purest sense of the word,
coaches listen.
They don't dictate, they don'tteach, they don't train, they
listen and you hear yourselfthing and helps you sort through
what is going on inside, andwhen bosses or managers are
listening to their people, theirpeople feel like, okay, you
(24:56):
care, really listen, not justpretend, but genuinely listen
and care about what's happeningto your people.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
We're going to take a quick break.
We're talking with Anne Visser,who is a life coach, speaker
and trainer with For BetterForever.
That is the number four betternumber four ever com, and if
you're enjoying what you'rehearing, join us on Instagram
and Facebook, where my handle isat Savvy Communicator, we'll be
(25:23):
right back.
Welcome back to the SavvyCommunicator podcast, anne.
I'm just intrigued byeverything that you're saying,
so tell me more about your story.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
And so, Anne, the big part of what we needed to learn
was how to communicate, and thefirst part of communication
that I didn't know.
I didn't know Because we don'tknow.
I did not know how, what wasgoing on inside of me.
So then I couldn't communicatethat with my husband, and so I
had to learn to journal out.
(25:59):
What am I thinking?
What am I feeling?
What is it that I really,really want here?
What's happening for me?
What am I worried about?
That was a big question for me.
What am I worried about?
Because often, when I would justjournalize those questions, i
didn't even have to have theconversation with him, because
it was all in my head and now itwas on the paper and it was
like a good flush, like a goodcleanup up, mental clean out.
(26:23):
Yes, and it gave me suchclarity to be able to come to
him then and say this is how I'mfeeling, this is what I think
about, this, this is what I'mworried about, this is what I
really want, so clear.
And that clarity was so helpfulfor him, because when I say,
well, i have a lot of words, wedon't use a lot of words.
(26:46):
It's like him trying to find aneedle in a haystack.
It's impossible for him to finda point.
And so I discovered as I journal, it gave me the ability to be
able to clarify and speakclearly with him what it is that
I really want, and so we callthis pivotal conversations, and
this is the first sea of pivotalconversations is to check
(27:07):
emotions, and often my emotionswould overwhelm me and I would
not be able to clearly say I'dbe triggered and I would not be
able to clearly communicate whatit was that I wanted to say to
him, and so journaling throughthese questions really helped me
to get to the point of what itwas I wanted to say with him.
(27:28):
I remember a time, amy, when Iwas actually sitting with my
adult daughter at the table thekitchen table and I was sharing
with her a conversation I knew Ineeded to have about boundaries
with our son And I blurted outto him, to her I just don't
trust him.
She looked at me, my very wisedaughter, and said Mom, you need
(27:50):
to check.
That.
That's awful.
And I knew as soon as it wasout of my mouth I had a problem,
because I knew that's not wherehe was, but that's where I was.
And I went to my thinking chairThat's what I call a place where
I journal And I started tojournal out those questions What
am I thinking, what am Ifeeling, what am I worried about
(28:11):
?
And I recognize that I was inprotection mode.
My emotions were not currentwith where he was.
He wasn't there anymore, but wehad had significant challenges
raising him, as he knows and hewill admit to, but he wasn't
there anymore.
He was an adult now, but I wasstuck back in 2005.
(28:32):
I would have sabotaged thatlittle conversation I needed to
have with him about boundariesif I had not checked my first
and check my motives, Because mymotive was protection mode.
I'm going to protect my heartbecause I don't trust him.
And so checking those emotionsand checking our motives,
because motives are slipperythings.
(28:52):
Sometimes when someone hurts us, we're like I'm just going to
make you suffer a little bitlonger here because I don't like
what you said to me and I don'ttrust you Yeah.
So my motive is to protectmyself instead of going into the
conversation clearly clearabout what it is that's going on
, what's happening, what myexperience is and where I need
(29:14):
to go from here.
What's the real point.
See his check emotions And thatis so incredibly valuable for
my people.
My people are incredibly highand hard.
They're very agreeable.
They do not want to rock theboat and they very easily get
overwhelmed with and triggeredwith emotions that sabotage
(29:36):
their conversations.
And so we check emotions andprepping for the conversation,
because the conversation oftencomes up again and again And
you're leaving all the mess tome and I don't feel respected,
or you have not taken out thegarbage all week and this is
(29:58):
your responsibility.
You know whether it's a childor whether it's person we live
with.
So having that kind of clarityand checking those emotions
helps the conversation to go offmuch better.
It helps us start better andhelps us finish better.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
That's so interesting .
Just to digress for a second, iused to be an actor and talking
about motives and motivationand things, not only are they
extra important in real life,but because acting is trying to
imitate real life, it comes intoquestion and into practice
there as well.
(30:36):
And I think that's the reasonwhy you see a lot of bad acting
is because they are notapproaching it as clearly as
what you are laying out.
And a lot of times I think incommunication, we feel like we
have to be somewhere else, wesomeone else.
We feel like we have to be kind, we have to be understanding,
(30:58):
we have to just, you know, kindof listen and take it and okay,
that's all right, and assumethat it'll work itself out
eventually.
And it doesn't.
And we need techniques and weneed practice and we need to
rely on a framework in order tofeel confident going forward.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Yes, and when it doesn't go well, again and again
that resentment starts to build.
And that's been our experienceand that was what was happening
in our marriage in the beginningthat resentment building and
building and building until wehad this stack of hurt and pain
that we had to work through inorder to and forgive, in order
(31:43):
to better together.
And so we say keep shortaccounts on that, like, don't
let that stacking happen so thatyou, there's so much pain there
and that you have to workthrough that pain and that hurt
and deal with it sooner thanlater.
It's so much better, it's somuch easier because we don't
have all that hurt and painburied inside.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Yes, Yes, and I can see how that would apply to you
know, a friendship or a workrelationship as well.
I mean, i've certainly been injobs where you think, well, i'm
going to do the absolute bareminimum if they don't
specifically ask me to do it.
I'm not going to do it becauseI'm not understood and I'm not
valued and I'm not, you know,fill in the blank.
(32:25):
Same with friendships.
A lot of times you feel I'm notvalued, they're not listening
to me, what's important to me isnot important to them.
Therefore, i'm going to justtake a backseat and ride along
and not invest anything.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
And that's communicating in itself, isn't
it, Amy?
Yeah, Like protest behavior,right, When I don't like what
you're doing.
but I'm not going to talk aboutit, I'm going to protest it.
So, I'm going to either attackor come at you, or I'm just
going to withdraw and turn awayfrom you, because I don't like
what you're saying.
I don't like what you're doing.
I don't like this extra workthat you're putting on my plate.
(33:04):
I don't like how you're hangingaround my desk and I don't get
my work done, but I won't tellyou about it.
I won't talk to you about it.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
I won't ask.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
You've got 10 minutes and then I need to get back to
work because I've got a familyat home that's waiting for me
and I need to be home at 6o'clock tonight.
Right, yeah, but that's what wedo.
We do that protest behavioraround.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Talking about it And the other person knows what's
wrong with her today.
Well, she's cranky.
What's going on?
I don't know what's going onhere, but she gets up right.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
And I've been on the other side of that too, where I
think everything's just bubblingalong nicely and all of a
sudden someone explodes Andthey'll say something like
you're mean to me, you don'trespect me, you don't you know X
, y and Z, and you feel sosurprised and so attacked and so
hurt because you had no ideaany of this was going on.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Yes, and it catches you unaware because that's been
bubbling inside of them and notbeen communicated what's
happening?
And then it builds inside ofthem, but it catches you unaware
because you had no idea thatthis is going on inside And that
(34:19):
hurts.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Well, it does, it does, it hurts, it hurts, both
ends hurt And then you've gottwo hurt people trying to figure
out where to go next.
So what are some steps that youwould recommend for people to
take?
you know, going forward, ifthey're going forward from this
podcast today and there were twothings that they should take
(34:42):
away what would you considerthose top two things to be?
Speaker 2 (34:45):
I think the first thing is to not be afraid of
conflict and to not be afraid ofthose pivotal conversations and
to see them as healthy and goodand to learn those skills for
pivotal conversations.
So remember that timing matters.
Timing is important.
You can have a goodconversation at a very bad time
(35:05):
when somebody's rushing out thedoor bad time.
Late at night, bad time.
Somebody trying to get aproject done and they're on a
deadline bad timing.
But make conversation thatneeds to be had.
So pay attention to that timing.
I would say learn those skillsto be concise and to stick to
the facts.
That'll help you manage thoseemotions in the middle of the
(35:27):
conversation And encourage youto learn the skills of being
assertive.
And when you can do that firstC, of check emotions, then
you're able to be assertiverather than attacking and rather
than avoiding, you can actuallyexpress those feelings, those
thoughts and those needs thatyou have.
It sounds cliche, but usingthose I statements is so
(35:47):
incredibly valuable, i feel.
Yes, it's so incrediblyvaluable because it helps the
other person to relax just alittle bit.
I know I'm in this pivotalconversation.
It brings it, it rises thecortisol and it makes us all a
little bit anxious because Idon't know what's going to
happen.
But when I use those Istatements, i feel helps the
other person to relax just alittle bit, because it's about
(36:10):
you rather.
Oh okay, i'm not to blame here.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
You're going to responsibility.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
It really does help to use those I statements.
So I for your people.
Those three tips is to themindset that it's okay to
disagree, but there's a way todo it that will actually bring
your closer together, even atwork, to help you get on the
same page, get your work doneand get your job done.
Be concise, stick to thosefacts to help you manage those
(36:42):
emotions in the middle of theconversation.
And then, last of all, beassertive.
When you check emotions you canbe assertive.
You can say what it is you'rethinking and what it is you
really want.
Use those I statements to dothat.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Those are fantastic tips.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Thank you so very much 42 years in and I said to
him a while ago I'm so glad thatyou were willing to walk
through the desert with me,because it was a desert.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
It was hard.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
It was up and down.
It wasn't a fairy tale.
It was up and down, it was hard, but we did it together.
Sometimes I think we give uptoo soon.
I say need to do the process,to know what you get in the end.
Not all marriages can be saved.
But I think many more could besaved if we're not be afraid to
(37:30):
do the process, to walk througha difficult situation, to get to
the other side to see what wereally do have.
We don't know in the beginninguntil we start to learn those
skills ourselves get on apersonal growth journey yourself
, Regardless of what the otherperson chooses you're better for
in the end.
I do know that one person canmake a difference.
(37:51):
I have seen it many times thatone person, when they start
working on themselves and theystart getting better, If they're
with a good person, that otherperson will come along.
It's like changing the steps ofthe dance.
When you change the steps ofthe dance, the other person
starts to see oh okay, I need tostart making some changes here
(38:11):
too for the better.
That can help the relationshipin a credible way.
I want to leave your peoplewith hope for better
relationships through healthiercommunication skills.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
That's just, I think, a wonderful place to end for
today.
Thank you so very much.
It's been such a pleasure tohave you on the show, Ann.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
I have a free gift I would love to give your people.
Is that okay, Amy?
Yes, absolutely.
We've been talking a lot aboutpivotal conversations and maybe
someone in your audience hasbeen putting off pivotal
conversations that they knowthey need to have.
I want to give you a freeresource that can help you get
ready.
It's called the Seven DayChallenge.
(38:55):
Each day, I'll send out a shortvideo with a simple action step,
because I think action is soimportant.
We can learn all and learn andlearn and learn, but we don't
actually take action and apply.
We don't see the change we need.
Each day, you'll get a shortvideo with a simple action step
so that you can, step by step,get ready for that next pivotal
(39:15):
conversation.
You can go from not knowingwhat to say or even how to
approach that pivotalconversation to knowing exactly
what it is you want to say andget ready for that next pivotal
conversation.
You can go to that Seven DayChallenge at forbetterforevercom
forward slash challenge.
That really is the best way tostay in touch with me, because
(39:36):
from there you can sign up forour weekly email called the
Tuesday Brew with Ann.
That's where I share weeklycommunication tips to help you
communicate in a way that alignswith your values, so that
tomorrow we're happy with theway that you communicated today.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
Wow, that's a huge gift.
Thank you so much, ann, and Iencourage everybody to take
advantage of that if you'veenjoyed what you've heard today.
Ann is a speaker and a lifecoach and a trainer.
You can find her atforbetterforevercom That's
number four better number fourever dot com.
All the links will be in theshow notes.
So thank you again, ann, andthanks to our audience.
(40:17):
If you enjoyed listening today,go to wwwsavvycommunicatorcom.
Become part of the conversationyourself.
You can get in touch with Annthrough the website and you can
find more resources beyond theones that Ann has so generously
gifted to us today.
So, ann, thank you again forbeing here today.
I appreciate it so much.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Thanks, Amy.
It's great to be here on theSave a Communicator podcast.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Thank you, i'm Amy Flanagan, your host, and we'll
see you next time, everybody.
Hello and welcome to the Savvy Communicator podcast.
Today, our expert guests willhelp us dive deep into
relationships.
What are the five links in love?
This is a place where wediscuss all things communication
, talking, facial expressions,body language and, most
importantly, how to talk whenyou're not sure what to say.
(00:21):
I'm your host, amy Flanagan,and today I'd like to say hello
to our expert guest, mrs AnneVisser, and welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Hello, Amy, It's good to see you again and thank you
for having me on the SavvyCommunicator podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Thank you so much.
We're really glad to have youhere.
So Anne is a life coach, aspeaker and trainer with For
Better Forever, as well as acertified John Maxwell coach,
speaker and trainer, so we'revery lucky to have you here
today.
I appreciate that.
I know you're going to tell uswhat some of that means in just
a minute.
A lot of times we only hearabout communication as it
relates to the business world,as in how to communicate with
(00:57):
your boss, for example, but whathas been your experience in
becoming a speaker and trainerspecifically about communication
?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Well, i am passionate about communication because of
my own personal story and I'mpassionate to equip others to
communicate in a way that alignswith their values, because I
think we're happier withourselves tomorrow if we
communicate in a way that alignswith their values today.
But it's really because of myown story and the struggles that
we had in our marriage.
(01:26):
It has been as I have beenteaching and training for over
20 years.
I've realized that the skillsthat I learned within my
marriage and then helped otherpeople to learn new skills
within their relationships andtheir intimate relationships in
particular, i discovered thatthese skills are so incredibly
(01:46):
transferable and that they'renot soft skills or actually
incredibly essential skills tobe able to get along, whether
it's at home or whether it's atwork.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Yes, absolutely Absolutely.
Tell us more about your story.
How did this start for you?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
So I met a young man when I was 15 and I chased him
Really shamelessly, just chankedhim, just give me a date.
I was writing him notes in hisdesk and leaving them in his
desk at school And three yearslater I did get a date.
Three years later we married.
(02:25):
That's fantastic.
We were so passionate and crazyin love.
Honestly, amy And thephotographer said to us on that
day I've never seen a couplelook at each other the way the
two of you look at each other.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Oh crazy, That's wonderful Yes.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
One month after we were married I was pregnant and
very, very sick On the couchcouldn't move, kind of sick.
And that's a rough way to startmarriage And then fast forward.
we had five children in sixyears.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
And then, on top of that, my husband is a farmer.
He was working long hours.
I often felt like a single momAnd so very quickly we had these
external pressures pressing inon us.
But then we had the internalpressures, because I wasn't
communicating well, he wasn'tcommunicating well, we both have
conflict, we didn't want tofight And of course that doesn't
(03:27):
work very well, but we didn'tknow that.
We thought we were doing a goodthing, but actually avoiding
that Just builds resentment Andit's not good for a relationship
.
And so this being separate andthis grew in our relationship.
And so we got to the pointwhere we were sitting in our
farm truck on a date and Ilooked at him and I said I can't
(03:49):
do this anymore.
I said we just keep hurtingeach other.
He said what do you mean?
you can't do this anymore.
And I said I can't do marriagelike this anymore.
I said we just keep hurtingeach other.
We go around and around thesame old thing.
We don't ever resolve anythingAnd I'm so hurt and I'm so tired
.
And that lingered in his heartin a different way, and he
(04:11):
shared his pain with me.
I missed his pain.
I was so busy caring for ourchildren and all those little
needs and trying to keep upmyself with physical and
emotional needs of little onesthat I missed his pain entirely.
But that night he shared veryvulnerably and honestly about
(04:33):
how he was feeling and what washappening for him, and we both
looked at each other and said,okay, we need to get the help
that we need in order to getwell again, and so that was like
a pivotal conversation in ourrelationship that put me on a
personal growth journey.
That put us on a relationshipgrowth journey in order to be
(04:55):
better together, and a big partof that was learning to
communicate and learning how toconflict in a way that will
actually pull us closer togetherinstead of driving us further
apart, which is what it wasdoing.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Wow, that's so meaningful to hear you say that,
because I have to say I don'thave children.
I have seven nephews and oneniece.
But I have experienced similarthings in my own marriage in
that and in communication ingeneral, because it's just like,
well, I'm talking to you, Soaren't you hearing the exact
things that I'm trying to say,Am I not?
(05:30):
I'm feeling so much.
How am I not saying exactlywhat I'm feeling?
How are you not hearing exactlywhat I'm feeling?
And so that really resonateswith me to hear you say that.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Yeah, and then they say it back to you.
It was like wait a minute,that's not what I said.
How did you get that out ofthis?
That is not what I said.
Let's go back.
We learned to talk when we'reso little, like two and some.
We learned to talk And youwould think that if we learn at
(06:04):
such a young age how to talk,that we would be better at
communication.
But communication is so muchmore than the speaking, and
there are so many important,essential communication skills
that we need that are reallytransferable, whether they're in
our relationship with a home orwith friends or with family
(06:25):
members or the network as well,and we need to be able to
communicate in a way so thatother people can understand us,
receive the information and themessage, because the information
is heard of it, there's amessage in it as well, and the
experience of whatever it isthat's happening in the moment.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yes, i absolutely agree with you.
It's part of the reason why Istarted this podcast, because I
think all of us we need to knowmore about how to communicate,
whether that's how to be awareof what it is we're expressing,
whether it's our facialexpressions or our body language
(07:06):
, or what we're verbally sayingto someone else to be able to
have that knowledge and then tohave that responsibility.
So, that when it goes wrong,we're able to say, okay, let's
take a minute.
This isn't what I met, but Iunderstand that.
this is what you heard And,yeah, it's very important to me
as well.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
And so much is said outside of the words that we
speak, so much is said in thatbody language that you spoke
about.
so much.
Whether we're just walking bysomebody and we touch them and
there's an expression there ofconnection, an expression oh, i
like you, an expression of Iwant you, whether the way we
greet each other it's soimportant the way we touch one
(07:49):
another, and then it'sappropriate and then it's kind.
I mean, we're having sexbusiness people.
When we meet each other, thefirst thing we do is shake hands
as an expression of buildingtrust, and this is who I am like
.
An openness to that of this iswho I am and of an introduction
to maybe there's something here,a connection where we can work
(08:12):
together.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Yes, yes, absolutely.
In fact, that's one of the isit the five pillars or the five
links that you teach abouttouches one of them?
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Yes, it is.
And so I teach a program calledHow to Avoid Falling for a Jerk
, and I just love this program.
It is so powerful.
It's a five week program.
It's based on attachment theory.
It's been written by Dr JohnVenet, but I'm licensed to teach
it.
And it is.
(08:45):
it's based on the attachmentmodel And there are five links
in love and every link isimportant to love and
relationship.
The five links are to know,which is so incredibly important
.
When I know how to approach you, when I know where you're
hurting, your pain is, I knowhow to talk to you, how to speak
(09:06):
with you about a certain topic.
If I know that a certain topicis going to be challenging for
you, but I know that we need totalk about it, then I'm going to
approach a little bitdifferently than if I know oh,
this is no big deal, but we doneed to talk about it.
It's going to be a differentapproach.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yes, Because I know you Yes.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
I can approach it differently.
The second link is to trust,and trust is so paramount to
relationships.
It gives us a sense of securityin the relationship because I
know who you are, what you'reabout, what's important to you,
and you've built that trust.
I don't have any questions.
There's a.
I don't have any questionsabout where you are or what
you're doing, because I know youand I trust you.
(09:41):
So links are all connected toone another.
And then third link is to rely.
The fourth is to commit.
Commitment is I belong to youand you belong to me, not in
that sick sense of ownershipThat's.
That's sick and that's nothealthy, but in the sense of
whether we're together or not,we're still together.
Yes, and the commitment thatI've made to you, whether it's
(10:02):
as a friend, so I'm not going totalk behind your back or I'm
not going to tell your story tosomeone else, it's your story
and you can uncommitted to youin that, or whether it's a
commitment that you've made to apartner that I am.
This is my exclusiverelationship with you And you're
the one that I share thingswith.
(10:24):
You're the one who knows moreabout me than anyone else in the
world And we have that mutualcommitment for one another.
And the last link in love andattachment is to touch, and so
each of these links are onsliders, which I love, and
that's why it's a picture oflove, exactly.
And so, as I'm teaching thecourse, i tell stories and I
have my clients put therelationship on the model, and
(10:49):
even as you tell the story, therelationship may change.
Like, for instance, i learnedsomething about you that I don't
like, so I know more and mytrust was up here.
But now that I know more andsomething that I don't like,
you've spoken about me behind myback or whatever, which I just
had a conversation with somebodylately about that Trust falls.
Right, yes, trust falls.
(11:10):
And then I don't know if I canreally depend on you, which is
reliance.
And then, how committed are youto me in this relationship?
And no, heck, no, i'm nottouching you.
So links are impacted by theother links, and so this is a
program for singles.
It's so incredibly valuable.
I have been teaching thisprogram for over 10 years now
(11:32):
And it's transferable, it goes.
I've taken it into jail, i'vebeen able to take it into a
recovery home for addicts,because relationships are
essential for their sobriety Andto know to value themselves.
This is about value yourselfright To put yourself in a
relationship with people who aretruly trustworthy, who are
(11:54):
value you and appreciate you forwho you are.
And so I've been able to takeit into schools, And now I'm
teaching it virtually to singlesagain.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
That is wonderful.
One of the things that justjumped out at me is talking
about value.
I think that taking the time tolearn about communication
really does come back to a senseof value in yourself.
A lot of times we don't realizethat we're not valuing
(12:28):
ourselves when we just plunge inand say, well, i'm going to say
this and hopefully it will comeout the way I want.
at the other end, we think thatif we're being genuine, then we
don't need to practice.
If we practice something, thenit must not be genuine.
Both of those things reallystand out to me, based on what
(12:50):
you just said.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Isn't that so true that we think that if, oh man,
if I have to practice this, thenit's not really authentic to
who I am or how important it isto be able to practice, because
we think so many thoughts in therun of the day and not all of
the thoughts are true and notall of the thoughts are helpful
and not all of our thoughts aregood or healthy.
(13:15):
So, to be able to sort throughokay, if I say it this way, and
I know who you are and I knowthat this is going to and Dr
John Gottman says that the firstfew minutes, the way you start
a conversation, will determinethe outcome, and so he can
predict up to 93% if thatrelationship is going to survive
(13:37):
or not, or if it's going tothrive.
By the way, that we communicateand, by the way, we start a
conversation And so if I knowthat this is a pain point for
you and I just plunge in anddon't practice and don't think
of it what I'm going to say andjust say, well, what I have to
say is really important and youneed to hear what I'm going to
say.
For the relationship in thelong run which I I increase my
(13:59):
people what is the goal of yourrelationship?
What is the goal of yourrelationship?
So then that kind of tempers,what I say in the relationship
Yes, the goal is connection Thenmaybe this is something I
really need to talk about,because I feel like you're not
respecting me here.
But then how I approach thatconversation will determine what
I know about you.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Yes, He's the scientist that has observed I
don't know thousands of couplesspeak to each other just on
innocuous topics, And that'swhere he gets his 93% accuracy
rating on whether or not theystay together.
Are we thinking of the same?
Speaker 2 (14:37):
person Yes.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Well, it's renowned.
Anyone else who has so muchresearch based on the
physiological happenings withina conversation between couples,
he has more information, moretheory based on research between
couples, and that's where hiswork comes from.
(14:59):
It was very powerful.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Yes, i remember reading Blink by Malcolm
Gladwell, and he's mentioned inthere, along with Dr Paul Ekman,
who did some of the seminalwork on facial expressions, and
those two scientists got me muchmore interested in the field of
communication And that's whereI started learning more on that.
So it's wonderful that youmentioned him, because I was
(15:23):
really taken by his work.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I was going to say.
we often think aboutcommunication skills as soft
skills And we often think aboutthem as oh, I'll get to that
later.
I'll look after that later.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Let me really dive in this important information, yes
, yes, and I think that thereare so many times where we
assume that it's going to goright, that it's so simple, it
has to go right, and so much ofcommunication really is a trial
and error process And I think,just like you said, we learn to
(15:58):
talk at such a young age.
Well, we also learn at such ayoung age hey, if I don't do it
this way and get what I want,maybe I'll try it this way to
get what I want.
And while we're at such a youngage, willing to try different
things to find success, weforget that as we get older And
we forget that it might take twoor three attempts to get
(16:21):
through what I'm trying to say,and that's all right, that's
okay.
We're not doing it to bemanipulative, the way little
ones try to do sometimes, but wehave to do it because we're
communicating with somebody thatisn't necessarily on the same
wavelength that we are.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
I love how you're talking about it as a journey.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Yes, Yes, absolutely, and the journey is different
for us, with different people.
Yes, yes, it absolutely is.
And what I think is alsointeresting is that, because
it's a trial and error process,a lot of times if we try and we
don't succeed, it can be veryfrightening for us And we pull
(17:01):
back and say, well, i'm notgoing to try that again because
it didn't work out the way Ithought it was going to work.
And if we try and succeed,often we don't know how we did
it And so there's nothing torely on when it comes time to do
that again Again.
Whether it's in a personalrelationship, whether it's at
work, we're trying to stand upfor ourselves and get what we
need, whether it's in afriendship, and we want to say,
(17:22):
hey, don't talk behind my back,we don't have anything to rely
on because we're not sure how wedid it the first time And we're
afraid to do it again becausewe're afraid it might not work.
And so this training that you'retalking about and really
working through and practicingand I love the visual aspect of
the sliders I think is soimportant because, like any
(17:45):
learning, if you are able to,some people are visual learners,
some people are auditorylearners and you're crossing
those boundaries And that'sreally great.
So, if you don't mind goingback for just a second.
I wanted to know if you wouldtalk to us a little bit about
attachment theory that yourprogram is based on, because
some people may not be familiarwith it.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Well, attachment theory it happens as babies
already, in the way that weattach and bond to our parents
or don't bond to our parents,and so there are different
styles of attachments.
So there's an aggressiveattachment where you try to get
your needs met by stepping allover everyone else because
(18:29):
you're safe and you don't, youdisregard other people, and so
it's often thought about asaggressive, as being physically
aggressive, but it can also beemotionally aggressive in the
way that you're crossing overeveryone else's boundary lines
to get what you think you needAnd it turns everybody off.
(18:52):
You don't get what you needsometimes, or sometimes you get
what you need just by walkingover everybody, but people are
not happy with you by the waythat you walk over, yes, and
then there's like the avoidantattachment style, and that's
where you just avoidconversations.
And this is where we were.
We were avoidant, we did notwanna talk about problems.
I thought it was a good thing,i thought it was healthy to not
(19:16):
fight and not disagree.
I thought we were doing a verygood thing, but in we were
creating space, emotionaldistance and emotional space.
We were not vulnerable.
This is a avoidant style.
You turn away from each otherbecause there's a whole lot of
emotion going on.
You don't know what to do withit And you think that you need
(19:37):
to be independent and kind oflook after yourself instead of
actually being interdependentwith another person and pulling
closer to somebody, even thoughit's hard.
And so you find those, we foundthose emotions.
We were both avoidant and wefound those emotions really,
really hard to be in the roomtogether because they were so
(19:58):
wrong, and so we were threatenedby those emotions from each
other And we would pull apart,kind of get some release.
And that avoidance of coursemakes you feel like you're alone
, it makes you feel like youdon't belong And it makes you
feel like you're not being heardor seen because you can't be
open with them, the other person, about who you are and what's
(20:20):
important to you, what you valueand what you want.
And, of course, the attachmentstyle that we want us to be
assertive and where we get ourneeds met while still not
running over other people butinstead caring for other people.
And when you're with someonewho's in a healthy attachment
(20:43):
you feel valued, but you knowexactly where they are.
You don't have to guess aboutit.
There's no guessing games.
That's kind of the passive,where you're just kind of
guessing about what they want,because they don't say it ever.
but in a healthy attachmentThey clearly state what they
want, who they are, how they'refeeling, and they put it out
there what they want, but theydon't expect that they're gonna
(21:05):
necessarily get what they wantfrom you.
Yes, but they can put it outthere and then they can
negotiate with it.
And when you walk away fromcompetition, you still feel like
you matter.
And this happens in workplacesall the time.
Yes, and I was speaking with ayoung woman who worked in
(21:27):
multiple.
She traveled to multiplebusinesses for work Her boss.
She loved her boss.
It was about relationshiprather than about production.
And then there was a change inleadership And she felt the
leadership was valuingproduction and they wanted more
out of her and they wanted herto go in more places And she
just couldn't keep up with itAnd she was feeling very
(21:50):
frustrated And she said this tome.
She said you know, the funnything is I would have done the
work for my previous bossbecause I knew he'd vote me Yes.
So we'll work our tail off ifwe know that somebody cares,
Because we're in a healthyattachment.
We know that we're feelingvalued by our boss or by the
(22:14):
person that we're working for.
Yes, Yes, you're right.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
We're willing to go so much farther with that when
we're understood Or we knowthere's the potential there to
be understood.
So that's what happened.
Did she decide to move toanother job?
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Yes, very shortly after I had spoken to her, she
decided it was time Because shewasn't feeling valued.
And I honestly think that welose our best people first,
because they understand thatthey're not being valued And
they will be.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
First, nice and kind and agreeable people stay too
long.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Yes, we stay too long when we're too nice and too
agreeable and too kind, becausewe have this incredible hope and
sometimes even a fantasy, thatit's gonna get better.
But people at the top areunhealthy.
They need to do the work.
We can't do the work for them.
They need to work in order tobe well, in order to be healthy
(23:15):
in order to be in healthyrelationships, whether it's at
work or at home, And if yourpeople are suffering at work, if
your people are suffering atwork.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Yes, absolutely, And it just.
I just flashed on an image ofcorporate executives sitting in
a retreat somewhere trying tofigure out how to show their
employees that they're valued,and coming up with pizza parties
and wearing jeans to work dayand doing things like that and
not really being able to connectand communicate because they're
(23:48):
not sure how and you knowthey're missing it.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
They're missing it and what people really want.
I think, amy, what peoplereally want is to be heard.
Even if you can't fix myproblem, if I feel like you've
really listened to what I amstruggling with and if you're
willing to kind of enter intothat problem with me, help me
(24:13):
problem solve, help me workthrough it, then people feel
valued, people feel like youcare, even if you can't make the
problem go away or disappear,and want that.
And I think listening is lost,it's a lost art.
I think we don't listen enoughand I think that's why coaching
(24:33):
has taken off, because, just inthe purest sense of the word,
coaches listen.
They don't dictate, they don'tteach, they don't train, they
listen and you hear yourselfthing and helps you sort through
what is going on inside, andwhen bosses or managers are
listening to their people, theirpeople feel like, okay, you
(24:56):
care, really listen, not justpretend, but genuinely listen
and care about what's happeningto your people.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
We're going to take a quick break.
We're talking with Anne Visser,who is a life coach, speaker
and trainer with For BetterForever.
That is the number four betternumber four ever com, and if
you're enjoying what you'rehearing, join us on Instagram
and Facebook, where my handle isat Savvy Communicator, we'll be
(25:23):
right back.
Welcome back to the SavvyCommunicator podcast, anne.
I'm just intrigued byeverything that you're saying,
so tell me more about your story.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
And so, Anne, the big part of what we needed to learn
was how to communicate, and thefirst part of communication
that I didn't know.
I didn't know Because we don'tknow.
I did not know how, what wasgoing on inside of me.
So then I couldn't communicatethat with my husband, and so I
had to learn to journal out.
(25:59):
What am I thinking?
What am I feeling?
What is it that I really,really want here?
What's happening for me?
What am I worried about?
That was a big question for me.
What am I worried about?
Because often, when I would justjournalize those questions, i
didn't even have to have theconversation with him, because
it was all in my head and now itwas on the paper and it was
like a good flush, like a goodcleanup up, mental clean out.
(26:23):
Yes, and it gave me suchclarity to be able to come to
him then and say this is how I'mfeeling, this is what I think
about, this, this is what I'mworried about, this is what I
really want, so clear.
And that clarity was so helpfulfor him, because when I say,
well, i have a lot of words, wedon't use a lot of words.
(26:46):
It's like him trying to find aneedle in a haystack.
It's impossible for him to finda point.
And so I discovered as I journal, it gave me the ability to be
able to clarify and speakclearly with him what it is that
I really want, and so we callthis pivotal conversations, and
this is the first sea of pivotalconversations is to check
(27:07):
emotions, and often my emotionswould overwhelm me and I would
not be able to clearly say I'dbe triggered and I would not be
able to clearly communicate whatit was that I wanted to say to
him, and so journaling throughthese questions really helped me
to get to the point of what itwas I wanted to say with him.
(27:28):
I remember a time, amy, when Iwas actually sitting with my
adult daughter at the table thekitchen table and I was sharing
with her a conversation I knew Ineeded to have about boundaries
with our son And I blurted outto him, to her I just don't
trust him.
She looked at me, my very wisedaughter, and said Mom, you need
(27:50):
to check.
That.
That's awful.
And I knew as soon as it wasout of my mouth I had a problem,
because I knew that's not wherehe was, but that's where I was.
And I went to my thinking chairThat's what I call a place where
I journal And I started tojournal out those questions What
am I thinking, what am Ifeeling, what am I worried about
(28:11):
?
And I recognize that I was inprotection mode.
My emotions were not currentwith where he was.
He wasn't there anymore, but wehad had significant challenges
raising him, as he knows and hewill admit to, but he wasn't
there anymore.
He was an adult now, but I wasstuck back in 2005.
(28:32):
I would have sabotaged thatlittle conversation I needed to
have with him about boundariesif I had not checked my first
and check my motives, Because mymotive was protection mode.
I'm going to protect my heartbecause I don't trust him.
And so checking those emotionsand checking our motives,
because motives are slipperythings.
(28:52):
Sometimes when someone hurts us, we're like I'm just going to
make you suffer a little bitlonger here because I don't like
what you said to me and I don'ttrust you Yeah.
So my motive is to protectmyself instead of going into the
conversation clearly clearabout what it is that's going on
, what's happening, what myexperience is and where I need
(29:14):
to go from here.
What's the real point.
See his check emotions And thatis so incredibly valuable for
my people.
My people are incredibly highand hard.
They're very agreeable.
They do not want to rock theboat and they very easily get
overwhelmed with and triggeredwith emotions that sabotage
(29:36):
their conversations.
And so we check emotions andprepping for the conversation,
because the conversation oftencomes up again and again And
you're leaving all the mess tome and I don't feel respected,
or you have not taken out thegarbage all week and this is
(29:58):
your responsibility.
You know whether it's a childor whether it's person we live
with.
So having that kind of clarityand checking those emotions
helps the conversation to go offmuch better.
It helps us start better andhelps us finish better.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
That's so interesting .
Just to digress for a second, iused to be an actor and talking
about motives and motivationand things, not only are they
extra important in real life,but because acting is trying to
imitate real life, it comes intoquestion and into practice
there as well.
(30:36):
And I think that's the reasonwhy you see a lot of bad acting
is because they are notapproaching it as clearly as
what you are laying out.
And a lot of times I think incommunication, we feel like we
have to be somewhere else, wesomeone else.
We feel like we have to be kind, we have to be understanding,
(30:58):
we have to just, you know, kindof listen and take it and okay,
that's all right, and assumethat it'll work itself out
eventually.
And it doesn't.
And we need techniques and weneed practice and we need to
rely on a framework in order tofeel confident going forward.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Yes, and when it doesn't go well, again and again
that resentment starts to build.
And that's been our experienceand that was what was happening
in our marriage in the beginningthat resentment building and
building and building until wehad this stack of hurt and pain
that we had to work through inorder to and forgive, in order
(31:43):
to better together.
And so we say keep shortaccounts on that, like, don't
let that stacking happen so thatyou, there's so much pain there
and that you have to workthrough that pain and that hurt
and deal with it sooner thanlater.
It's so much better, it's somuch easier because we don't
have all that hurt and painburied inside.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Yes, Yes, and I can see how that would apply to you
know, a friendship or a workrelationship as well.
I mean, i've certainly been injobs where you think, well, i'm
going to do the absolute bareminimum if they don't
specifically ask me to do it.
I'm not going to do it becauseI'm not understood and I'm not
valued and I'm not, you know,fill in the blank.
(32:25):
Same with friendships.
A lot of times you feel I'm notvalued, they're not listening
to me, what's important to me isnot important to them.
Therefore, i'm going to justtake a backseat and ride along
and not invest anything.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
And that's communicating in itself, isn't
it, Amy?
Yeah, Like protest behavior,right, When I don't like what
you're doing.
but I'm not going to talk aboutit, I'm going to protest it.
So, I'm going to either attackor come at you, or I'm just
going to withdraw and turn awayfrom you, because I don't like
what you're saying.
I don't like what you're doing.
I don't like this extra workthat you're putting on my plate.
(33:04):
I don't like how you're hangingaround my desk and I don't get
my work done, but I won't tellyou about it.
I won't talk to you about it.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
I won't ask.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
You've got 10 minutes and then I need to get back to
work because I've got a familyat home that's waiting for me
and I need to be home at 6o'clock tonight.
Right, yeah, but that's what wedo.
We do that protest behavioraround.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Talking about it And the other person knows what's
wrong with her today.
Well, she's cranky.
What's going on?
I don't know what's going onhere, but she gets up right.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
And I've been on the other side of that too, where I
think everything's just bubblingalong nicely and all of a
sudden someone explodes Andthey'll say something like
you're mean to me, you don'trespect me, you don't you know X
, y and Z, and you feel sosurprised and so attacked and so
hurt because you had no ideaany of this was going on.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Yes, and it catches you unaware because that's been
bubbling inside of them and notbeen communicated what's
happening?
And then it builds inside ofthem, but it catches you unaware
because you had no idea thatthis is going on inside And that
(34:19):
hurts.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Well, it does, it does, it hurts, it hurts, both
ends hurt And then you've gottwo hurt people trying to figure
out where to go next.
So what are some steps that youwould recommend for people to
take?
you know, going forward, ifthey're going forward from this
podcast today and there were twothings that they should take
(34:42):
away what would you considerthose top two things to be?
Speaker 2 (34:45):
I think the first thing is to not be afraid of
conflict and to not be afraid ofthose pivotal conversations and
to see them as healthy and goodand to learn those skills for
pivotal conversations.
So remember that timing matters.
Timing is important.
You can have a goodconversation at a very bad time
(35:05):
when somebody's rushing out thedoor bad time.
Late at night, bad time.
Somebody trying to get aproject done and they're on a
deadline bad timing.
But make conversation thatneeds to be had.
So pay attention to that timing.
I would say learn those skillsto be concise and to stick to
the facts.
That'll help you manage thoseemotions in the middle of the
(35:27):
conversation And encourage youto learn the skills of being
assertive.
And when you can do that firstC, of check emotions, then
you're able to be assertiverather than attacking and rather
than avoiding, you can actuallyexpress those feelings, those
thoughts and those needs thatyou have.
It sounds cliche, but usingthose I statements is so
(35:47):
incredibly valuable, i feel.
Yes, it's so incrediblyvaluable because it helps the
other person to relax just alittle bit.
I know I'm in this pivotalconversation.
It brings it, it rises thecortisol and it makes us all a
little bit anxious because Idon't know what's going to
happen.
But when I use those Istatements, i feel helps the
other person to relax just alittle bit, because it's about
(36:10):
you rather.
Oh okay, i'm not to blame here.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
You're going to responsibility.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
It really does help to use those I statements.
So I for your people.
Those three tips is to themindset that it's okay to
disagree, but there's a way todo it that will actually bring
your closer together, even atwork, to help you get on the
same page, get your work doneand get your job done.
Be concise, stick to thosefacts to help you manage those
(36:42):
emotions in the middle of theconversation.
And then, last of all, beassertive.
When you check emotions you canbe assertive.
You can say what it is you'rethinking and what it is you
really want.
Use those I statements to dothat.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Those are fantastic tips.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Thank you so very much 42 years in and I said to
him a while ago I'm so glad thatyou were willing to walk
through the desert with me,because it was a desert.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
It was hard.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
It was up and down.
It wasn't a fairy tale.
It was up and down, it was hard, but we did it together.
Sometimes I think we give uptoo soon.
I say need to do the process,to know what you get in the end.
Not all marriages can be saved.
But I think many more could besaved if we're not be afraid to
(37:30):
do the process, to walk througha difficult situation, to get to
the other side to see what wereally do have.
We don't know in the beginninguntil we start to learn those
skills ourselves get on apersonal growth journey yourself
, Regardless of what the otherperson chooses you're better for
in the end.
I do know that one person canmake a difference.
(37:51):
I have seen it many times thatone person, when they start
working on themselves and theystart getting better, If they're
with a good person, that otherperson will come along.
It's like changing the steps ofthe dance.
When you change the steps ofthe dance, the other person
starts to see oh okay, I need tostart making some changes here
(38:11):
too for the better.
That can help the relationshipin a credible way.
I want to leave your peoplewith hope for better
relationships through healthiercommunication skills.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
That's just, I think, a wonderful place to end for
today.
Thank you so very much.
It's been such a pleasure tohave you on the show, Ann.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
I have a free gift I would love to give your people.
Is that okay, Amy?
Yes, absolutely.
We've been talking a lot aboutpivotal conversations and maybe
someone in your audience hasbeen putting off pivotal
conversations that they knowthey need to have.
I want to give you a freeresource that can help you get
ready.
It's called the Seven DayChallenge.
(38:55):
Each day, I'll send out a shortvideo with a simple action step,
because I think action is soimportant.
We can learn all and learn andlearn and learn, but we don't
actually take action and apply.
We don't see the change we need.
Each day, you'll get a shortvideo with a simple action step
so that you can, step by step,get ready for that next pivotal
(39:15):
conversation.
You can go from not knowingwhat to say or even how to
approach that pivotalconversation to knowing exactly
what it is you want to say andget ready for that next pivotal
conversation.
You can go to that Seven DayChallenge at forbetterforevercom
forward slash challenge.
That really is the best way tostay in touch with me, because
(39:36):
from there you can sign up forour weekly email called the
Tuesday Brew with Ann.
That's where I share weeklycommunication tips to help you
communicate in a way that alignswith your values, so that
tomorrow we're happy with theway that you communicated today.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
Wow, that's a huge gift.
Thank you so much, ann, and Iencourage everybody to take
advantage of that if you'veenjoyed what you've heard today.
Ann is a speaker and a lifecoach and a trainer.
You can find her atforbetterforevercom That's
number four better number fourever dot com.
All the links will be in theshow notes.
So thank you again, ann, andthanks to our audience.
(40:17):
If you enjoyed listening today,go to wwwsavvycommunicatorcom.
Become part of the conversationyourself.
You can get in touch with Annthrough the website and you can
find more resources beyond theones that Ann has so generously
gifted to us today.
So, ann, thank you again forbeing here today.
I appreciate it so much.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Thanks, Amy.
It's great to be here on theSave a Communicator podcast.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Thank you, i'm Amy Flanagan, your host, and we'll
see you next time, everybody.
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