February 6, 2025 • 24 mins
Unlock the secrets of captivating new audiences with Ben Hoffman, CEO of Square Productions. He is a change force in classical music marketing. Discover how his innovative strategies are revolutionizing the way symphony orchestras connect with younger, unfamiliar audiences by breaking free from the constraints of traditional imagery and embracing modern advertising techniques. We explore the vital transition from the iconic maestro with a baton to visuals and narratives that resonate with today's diverse audience base.
Join us as we delve into the vibrant world of cultural relevance, where symphony orchestras strive to maintain their buzzworthiness amidst a dynamic media landscape. Learn about the impact of strategic community outreach, technology partnerships, and showcasing authentic joy and passion in promotional materials. Ben's insights reveal how heartfelt arts marketing can distinguish classical music in a crowded market, emphasizing emotional resonance at every touchpoint. This episode is a compelling exploration of how a deep connection to the arts can create transformative experiences for all audiences. Listen in for a hopeful vision of the future of classical music marketing and the ongoing conversation about its powerful impact.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Elizabeth Bowman (00:00):
Hi, I'm Elizabeth Bowman and welcome to
the Scene Room.
Today I have Ben Hoffman here.
He's the CEO of SquareProductions, a marketing agency
specializing in promoting liveclassical music, with a special
emphasis on cold audienceattraction and retention.
He is just the kind of person Ilike to talk to as an arts
(00:23):
marketer.
I was inspired by something hesaid on LinkedIn, and that's how
this connection all came to be.
So let's get started, ben,welcome to the scene room.
Thanks so much for being here.
Ben Hoffman (00:35):
Thank you for having me Very excited.
Elizabeth Bowman (00:38):
So I was inspired by your recent LinkedIn
post on symphony seasonmarketing specifically.
Before we get into that, I'djust like to know a little bit
about your background, who youare, where you come from, what's
going on.
Ben Hoffman (00:52):
So I'm Ben Hoffman, I am the CEO of Square
Productions and we are amarketing agency that
specializes in social mediamarketing for symphony
orchestras and, in particular,social media marketing for
symphony orchestras and, inparticular, finding cold
audiences and keeping them,having them come back.
I've been a professionalphotographer for about 30 years
(01:13):
from Los Angeles and became afilmmaker about 15 years ago and
then two and a half years agowas referred to a symphony
orchestra, brought in to do justtheir basic social media and
help get a season underway, andit has grown into something much
larger than that and has becomemuch more specialized.
Along the way.
(01:34):
We've done everything frombuilding wraps to designing
table toppers and step andrepeats and special invitations
and all kinds of things, butmostly social media.
We continue to do that.
But I have really become kind ofobsessed with the idea of cold
audiences because we have seen achange, certainly in large part
, to the way that we areapproaching social media and
(01:56):
that changes.
When we first started going tothe concerts there were very few
young people and a year laterthere were so many that I had an
usher actually flag me down onenight and say what is happening
.
This is amazing and so verypassionate about that.
Elizabeth Bowman (02:11):
And you're based in Los Angeles.
Ben Hoffman (02:13):
Yeah, so I'm based in Los Angeles, but actually a
lot of our team is in Ukraine,so, as we speak, I'm actually in
the west of Ukraine right now.
One of the things that we aredoing.
I'm very passionate aboutwhat's happening in Ukraine, and
so our idea is to work withAmerican companies and have a
lot of our workers actually inUkraine, which is actually
(02:33):
really beneficial to Americancompanies as well, because we
can do the work at very, verycompetitive rates.
Elizabeth Bowman (02:40):
What's your history with classical music?
I understand you started abusiness for symphony marketing,
but how would we land there?
Ben Hoffman (02:50):
Sure, sure, sure.
You know I was brought up I'm57, so I was brought up when
classical was still part of ourworld, essentially when it was
part of the day-to-day world.
In my teens I ended up hangingout in the avant-garde
performance art scene in LosAngeles and saw a lot of
avant-garde chamber music, brokechamber music, really
interesting stuff, and lovedthat.
Fast forward to living in Ojai,moving to Ojai, california,
(03:13):
about 10 years ago, which isfamous for the Ojai Music
Festival, and ended up doingwork with them, essentially
doing almost passion projectwork.
For instance, I would shoot afilm about Ojai and helping
businesses attract people tocome to the symphony, you know,
showing it as a beautiful place,lifestyle marketing, which is
really what marketing is todaybranding and marketing.
(03:33):
I ended up, very long storyshort, living in North Carolina
for a short time and a woman whohad worked at the symphony,
worked at the Ojai MusicFestival as a consultant,
recommended me to the NorthCarolina symphony.
The Ohio Music Festival as aconsultant, recommended me to
the North Carolina Symphony andwe came on board.
It was the.
They were launching a new musicdirector and it just sort of
took off from there.
It started pretty small and,you know, a year later we
(03:56):
wrapped the front of thebuilding with our designs and
the truck and we do all kinds ofwork for them.
But really social media.
Elizabeth Bowman (04:02):
Great.
And let's get back to thisLinkedIn post that inspired this
conversation.
To begin with, I don't eventhink I was following you at the
time, so it just popped up onmy newsfeed because I guess a
lot of mutual people hadcommented on your post and liked
your post and you were talkingabout the stereotypical symphony
(04:24):
season ad with the maestrobaton and how this might be, I
guess, an outdated visualconcept.
To get to those cold audiences,can you define a cold audience
for the scene room audience?
Ben Hoffman (04:38):
Sure, a cold audience is somebody who
essentially knows nothing aboutyour symphony orchestra or your
performing arts organization.
They are, you know.
What I like to say is, ifyou're at 40 years old, you were
probably raised on Nirvana, youdon't?
You probably don't knowclassical.
You know it from movies.
If you're a chef's tablefanatic, you would have heard
Vivaldi.
So a cold audience is somebodywho doesn't know anything about
(05:00):
you.
Elizabeth Bowman (05:00):
Tell us more about the post and what you were
trying to convey there.
Ben Hoffman (05:03):
You Tell us more about the post and what you were
trying to convey there.
It's been very surprisingactually.
You know, I've been trying toget the message out for a while.
I mean, of course we want togrow the business and attract
more clients and it seems likethe fundamentals of advertising
don't apply to many symphonyorchestras and it's just very
puzzling to me.
You know, if you don't knowanything about classical music
(05:26):
and you see a man holding astick, frowning, I don't know
why that is an attractant.
I just don't, I don'tunderstand.
And I'd also like to say Ithink that I'm especially I'm
the right person to be sayingthis because I am the cold
audience.
Two and a half years ago I knewthe basics.
I knew Beethoven and Mozart.
I knew the basics right, but Isaw Mahler and then Rite of
(05:50):
Spring a year ago, a year and ahalf ago, and it changed my life
.
This is an extraordinaryexperience.
Going to see live classicalmusic is awesome.
I do this job because it'samazing.
I want way more people to knowabout it.
It's like wow.
I mean, it is an incrediblething.
I'm a musician.
I played in rock and roll bands.
(06:11):
There were five of us.
This is 66 people, sometimesHeck, if there's a master
chorale, on stage there'shundreds of people.
Elizabeth Bowman (06:19):
We seem to only be focused on the maestro,
other aspects of the classicalarts, like in opera.
They say the day of the diva isdone, right and uh, not to put
down our maestros, but the dayof focusing on one person for
such a communal experience, Ithink is done.
Ben Hoffman (06:45):
It's very strange.
One of my mentors in this worldtaught me audience place
musicians.
That is the community, right,that is the event itself.
And when you can demonstratethat you're already 10 steps
ahead because you're showingeverything, it's community.
(07:05):
That is the community.
You've given the village aplace right, a central meeting
hall.
You've brought the villagetogether and at the village
there is somebody speaking orentertainment.
Right, there's something thathas brought all of those people
there to only focus on the onething.
It's just not.
It just it's very.
It's very, very, very, verystrange to me.
(07:27):
You know, advertising is abouthow you feel People buy things,
because of how they feel theyfigure out if it was the right
thing to do afterwards.
So how do we want people tofeel?
If there's a man holding astick scowling at me, I feel
like I'm being scolded if Idon't know anything about
symphony music.
If I know something aboutsymphony music, I'm like, ok,
the guy's rocking out, but he'snot holding a guitar or she is
(07:50):
not holding a guitar, right, ifJimmy Page is playing a guitar
or a blues person, for instance,a blues guitar player has got
that, you know.
You know guitar players love togrimace when they're playing,
like hitting that high note andit's just.
He looks very, very intense.
Cool.
If you're a cold audience andyou love rock and roll, you know
why they're grimacing.
If you're holding a stick, it'svery confusing.
Elizabeth Bowman (08:12):
That's a good point.
I mean, I grew up in theclassical sphere, like my
parents, listened to mostlymedieval and Baroque music, so
you know I'm steeped in it fromvery young age, from birth, and
(08:32):
so when I read your post, thereason I think it resonated so
much with me was because Isuddenly took a step back and
thought he's right.
It is almost tone deaf that wewould have this one person with
like a wind machine in theirhair and a stick, and for me I
can obviously hear the bestmoments in symphonic history
(08:53):
when I see that image.
But yes, for someone who's notsteeped in it, who really
doesn't get it, it's hard toimagine what exactly is going on
there.
It's an insider's club.
Ben Hoffman (09:07):
It is and, interestingly, I mean it depends
on the angles too.
I mean, if you're really notseeing the audience, now all of
a sudden the audience isanonymous, but the audience are
the people that you're trying tosell to.
You're not selling to theconductor, you're selling to the
audience, so we should probablysee the audience are the people
that you're trying to sell to.
You're not selling to theconductor, you're selling to the
audience, so we should probablysee the audience.
If you're selling a car,generally speaking, you see the
car.
Elizabeth Bowman (09:25):
So let's get to how we might change this.
What ideas do you have in termsof what one might experiment
with?
Ben Hoffman (09:36):
So the first thing I would say is copy.
The most powerful things thathelp sell things, of course, are
imagery and the message, andI've said this so many times
Beethoven 5, saturday night.
This violin player is going tobe there, or this whoever period
.
Okay, your favorite song isSmells Like Teen Spirit Nirvana.
What are you reading?
(09:56):
You may as well be reading alanguage that is not your chosen
language.
None of that means anything.
You don't know this concert hallbecause they only put on
classical shows, so you've neverbeen there.
You don't know the piece.
You don't know anything aboutthis.
Okay, apparently something'shappening next Tuesday.
Next, like, how fast can youscroll Now?
(10:17):
On the other hand, if you saysomething like you know again,
I'll go back to you.
Know, let's just say Rite ofSpring.
You know, rite of Spring iscoming up.
This thunderous, powerful,incredible music is going to
shake the foundations of thisconcert hall.
You really should come andwitness this.
If you love powerful music, ifyou want to feel the timpani in
(10:37):
your chest, show up.
I mean, I'm being almost vulgarhere, but you know that kind of
messaging like give people areason and beyond that, and so
and that's another interestingpoint too, because you have to
write good copy.
You know.
I want to stop for a quicksecond and say the weirdest
thing happened in the last 20years.
(10:57):
So once upon a time, if youwanted to advertise for
something, you went to anadvertising agency and you paid
professional people to writecopy, shoot something and place
an ad.
Then social media showed up andnow apparently everybody's a
creative director and knows howto write good copy.
What?
Elizabeth Bowman (11:14):
We oversimplify things and we've
lost the expertise of thosespecific areas social media is
advertising today.
Ben Hoffman (11:24):
Organic branded social media is advertising
today.
Brand is everything today.
That is long game advertising,and if there's anything that's
amazing about classical music,it is long game.
It's still going around.
I mean mean, I read somethingthe other day that I thought was
so poignant, like how many artforms are still pulling in
(11:45):
people 300 years later.
Elizabeth Bowman (11:48):
After reading your post and marinating in how
I might imagine, like whatimportant things there are in
terms of marketing, the idea ofrelatability came to mind,
obviously, as you're talkingabout, and I started thinking
that the advertisements shouldconnect with where those people
(12:09):
are.
So you know people.
They should have differentimages, like people playing, For
instance, you've got the Riteof Spring there and all those
intense, thunderous moments.
Maybe put that into abasketball moment, like where
they're suddenly coming up andthen they're going for the shot.
It's like that moment so thatyou can have that, because we
(12:31):
can all relate to that, Even ifI don't play basketball that
they got that impossible shotand it was, you know, and you
can do that in a quick moment inan ad you know, or?
Ben Hoffman (12:42):
Yeah, of course I mean.
It's emotion.
I mean when the conductor, whenboth the conductor's feet are
off the ground and you can seethe band or the audience behind
him, you know something's goingon.
Hey, that looks exciting.
Elizabeth Bowman (12:53):
Yeah.
Ben Hoffman (12:53):
I would like to know more about that.
Elizabeth Bowman (12:55):
Yeah, and then I, yeah, I was just imagining
different moments in everydaylife, where you could have
different moments from thesymphony season, advertising
those everyday life things, andthen there you have the symphony
is everywhere, or the rhythm oflife, or no, I like to say that
(13:18):
a city, once you are part ofthe fabric of a society, once
you're part of the fabric ofyour city, you will succeed.
Ben Hoffman (13:26):
You should always be top of mind.
I mean the best things in yourcity, the best restaurants,
sporting events, whatever it isthat's popular where you are.
Once you've arrived, you wantto be buzzworthy.
You're not going to bebuzzworthy every week, but you
should be buzzworthy prettyoften.
And once you are part of thefabric, your tickets to sell
(13:47):
themselves, because it's justsomething that people do in your
city.
Elizabeth Bowman (13:49):
Community outreach, which seems to be
something that is, I mean, forgranting purposes, it's at the
top of their list, but Iwouldn't say, in terms of
marketing purposes, thatcommunity outreach is not at the
top of the marketing list.
And I think that the communityoutreach needs to move up the
(14:10):
ladder and there needs to bemore of this.
Like we had three musicians atan elementary school today and
then I mean obviously you don'tneed to have videos of them in
the classroom, that's, you knowthe Right, no, no, no, that's
very sensitive.
Ben Hoffman (14:25):
I realize that you can't do that necessarily, but
you can talk about it.
Elizabeth Bowman (14:29):
Yeah, you could have.
You can have one of thosemusicians do a talking head
video on your social media.
Just being like, a child cameup to me.
Didn't even know what a bassoonwas.
That was an amazing moment forme.
They loved the sound of it andthey wouldn't have been exposed
to it unless I had played today.
Ben Hoffman (14:51):
So I think one of the things that I feel like we
do need to work around and it'sperfectly fine to do that is
there are a lot of ways to dooutreach and you don't
necessarily need musicians to doit, and the reason I say that
is because a lot of musicianswant to play music.
They don't necessarily want tobe ambassadors, and that's fine,
I get it, but we need some ofthem to be ambassadors.
(15:11):
But there are so many otherways to do outreach.
You're right, you can have arepresentative come on and talk
about that event.
A teacher I'm sure will.
The way it feels to me sometimesis that the classical world
feels like it's on its back footand it's not.
I have said, if you are asymphony orchestra, everybody
(15:34):
wants to party with you.
That's a huge thing.
What an incredible organizationto be affiliated with.
You know, I think one of thebest ways to grow your audience
is through cross-pollination anddoing it in a micro sort of way
.
Essentially, you know, yes tobig corporations who want to
partner with symphonies, butalso the hot dog stand down the
street or whatever it is.
(15:55):
You know the popular placethat's in your city that people
love going to hook up with themand do a new one every month.
Do this all the time.
You know another thing this isnever going to stop.
Social media is here.
This is constant forever.
You know another thing this isnever going to stop.
Social media is here.
This is constant forever.
You know I keep saying that too,which is, you know, come up
with an idea, test it, pivot,put it out again, repeat forever
(16:17):
.
And that's the exciting part Imean.
This is to me, this is the newgolden age.
We have a million tools at ourdisposal.
You know you did a post theother day about augmented
reality.
Million tools at our disposal.
You know you did a post theother day about augmented
reality.
Amazing, why aren't we doingmore of that?
Like, there's so much cool techout there.
There are so many ways toamplify your organization.
You just have to want to do it.
Elizabeth Bowman (16:38):
Obviously, there are some major costs
associated with stuff likeaugmented reality, which is why
I was talking about thepotential for corporate
partnerships in that vein,because, like the symphony and
opera, there's epic imagery inall of it, which is a perfect
partnership for largeinstallation augmented reality
(17:03):
work, so it makes sense to me.
Ben Hoffman (17:06):
There is, and the other thing is there's always.
You know, part of this is beingcreative.
You know, I feel like a jobthat could be at every symphony
if they could afford it is, youknow, having somebody
essentially who's just engagingwith new technology.
It's like a PR, communications,new technology director,
somebody who's just trying tofind every possible cool, new,
(17:29):
interesting way to get the wordout, because there are also a
lot of new companies that riseup all the time.
Who will do partnerships?
Because, again, you're asymphony orchestra, if you're a
technology company with a newvisual technology and you're
trying to build up yourportfolio.
I'm not saying every symphonyis going to have access to this,
but I think there's so muchopportunity out there for
(17:52):
companies to help each other andthe calling card of an
organization like a symphonyorchestra is just, you know,
it's like a football field-sizedcalling card.
Elizabeth Bowman (18:04):
It is a beautiful thing Musicians
playing either in chamber musicform or in large symphony form
or in solo form.
A lot of these instruments arebeautiful to shoot.
Ben Hoffman (18:16):
Oh yeah.
Elizabeth Bowman (18:17):
And also multidimensional in terms of
what's happening, like a violinwith the bow hair and you know
all the drama and the sweat.
Ben Hoffman (18:27):
Yeah, no, it's great.
I mean, some of my favoriteshots are, of course, are the
conductor and the guest.
You know, at the end it justlooks like they ran a marathon
or something like you know,something amazing happened.
That's great stuff to post, youknow.
You talked about the musicianand the passion too.
You know that's another thing.
Everything that can be anattractant should be used as an
attractant.
We need more smiling shots.
Look, I'm a as a professionalphotographer, when I'm shooting
(18:50):
I get kind of intense,unfortunately, or whatever.
Like I sort of have restingserious face and I know a lot of
musicians do too, and that'sfine.
But between songs, a smile inphotos, like I don't care if you
have to stage it, people areattracted to joy.
Again, this is a cold audience.
(19:11):
A warm audience already knowsthat it's going to be joyful,
but a cold audience just doesn't.
And I know this too because youknow, for all of the, I've read
so much about focus groups andthese people are saying this and
these people are saying thatand, like I have spent a lot of
time in concert halls justtalking to people, and usually
young people and older audiences, and it's very interesting to
(19:33):
hear what they're.
You know what they have to say,because their experience is
very different than somebodywho's been going for 30 years.
It just is.
Elizabeth Bowman (19:40):
Do you think that, in terms of marketing
retention idea, our job as artsmarketers is not finished with
the campaign but once they enterthe hall, there needs to be the
continuation of that campaign.
The marketing effort iscontinued during the experience
of being in the hall.
I feel like once everyone's inthe hall, they're like the
(20:02):
numbers are like this and we'regood, We've hit the target like
this and we're good, We've hitthe target.
Ben Hoffman (20:10):
And then so again, you know that was my
conceptualized test pivot market, you know forever.
So two things about that yeah,A thousand percent.
I think they should be taken bythe hand through the experience
and after the experience, andforever.
One.
Two I think that we have tofocus on getting people to the
right concert the first time.
So I believe that one of thereasons people don't come back
is because they went to thewrong concert.
(20:31):
If you love sweet, soft music,you should not go see Stravinsky
, and if you go, you'll probablybe bummed out, and vice versa.
And I know that because of howmany concerts I saw as a cold
audience member and I didn'tlike all of it.
Of course, it's perfectlynatural, and some stuff I was
like, wow, this is the greatestthing I've ever heard in my
entire life.
I want to see more of this, andso if we can honor people's
(20:54):
curiosity by really telling themabout the concert you said, how
do we draw new people?
And we tell them what is itgoing to sound like?
What is it going to feel like?
Is there a modern band that youcan identify?
This classical piece that's 100years old, Does it remind you
of Adele or something like that?
Is there a way to talk about itin such a way where the person
who listens to that kind ofmusic will go hey, I'd like to
(21:17):
experience that.
Or it's something bombastic andyou can say to somebody who
loves rock and roll hey, man,this is like rock, this is like
rock and roll.
And then they come and they'relike that was like rock and roll
.
I, this is like rock and roll.
Elizabeth Bowman (21:29):
And then they come and they're like that was
like rock and roll.
I would like to go again.
That reminds me of thosepersonality tests Right.
Ben Hoffman (21:35):
They should have those Right.
Yeah, no, totally.
Elizabeth Bowman (21:49):
If you, what image do you relate to?
A, b, c or D?
And then you go there or likewhat's sonic passage?
You know they could give fourdifferent sonic passages and
then you would go into whateverthat survey took you to and then
it would choose the top threeconcerts for you that season.
Ben Hoffman (21:58):
That could be fun actually that's a brilliant idea
.
That is an absolute.
I love it.
A personality test on asymphony orchestra website but
that's beautiful.
That's the kind ofout-of-the-box thinking that you
know how can we attract morepeople?
We should try everything.
We should try everythingbecause we don't know what's
(22:19):
going to work.
You know, I posted about thisthe other day too.
Which is the beauty of socialmedia is, if it sucks, it
doesn't matter, as long as youdidn't say something
inflammatory.
If you're just trying a newmethod of advertising and it,
you know, it falls flat.
Yeah, great, I got six moredays to play with this week.
We should be trying everything.
Personality test on a website Iwant to put that on my website.
(22:43):
That's like so good.
Elizabeth Bowman (22:45):
If you had one piece of advice to give to
symphony marketers, or evenopera marketers arts marketers
to stand out in today's crowdedmedia landscape, what would it
be?
Ben Hoffman (22:57):
Two things I want to say.
I don't think it's that crowded.
I don't think it's that crowdedbecause most symphonies don't
have two symphony orchestrasnext door to each other, and I
think that is a misnomer andwe've proven it.
My company has proven itthrough good targeting, doing
social media marketing.
So I think we're actually in aunique position where we're
actually offering somethingthat's truly unique to our
(23:18):
cities.
So that's number one.
Two, I would say have fun andreally, before you choose a font
or write a single word orchoose a picture, figure out how
you want people to feel whenthey look at that ad, when they
look at that social media, whenthey look at that organic, when
they look at anything From thetime they show up in the parking
lot till they're sitting intheir seats and they're back at
(23:39):
home.
How do you want those people tofeel?
How would you want to feel ifyou put yourself in their shoes
and imagine that they don't knowanything about classical music?
Like nothing.
They know nothing aboutclassical music.
What would you tell them?
Because, after all of the stuffthat I write and I talk about, I
get really emotional about thisstuff.
I get emotional about thinkingabout it right now, because I
(24:01):
think that this art form is soextraordinary.
Just put your heart into yourmarketing, put your everything
into your marketing and talkabout it the way it makes you
feel, when you're at yourfavorite classical concert or
when you're at your favoriteballet.
You know, I used to go to theballet with my mom when I was a
kid and she would sit theresobbing at just time.
I didn't know why she was doingthat.
(24:22):
At certain times, you know, myfather, when he hears Pink Floyd
Comfortably Numb for the20,000th time, still closes his
eyes and is lost in it.
Let's find a heart in whatwe're doing.
That's what I would say.
Use your heart.
Elizabeth Bowman (24:36):
I hope that we'll connect more in the future
and stay in touch.
I would love that.
Ben Hoffman (24:41):
I really enjoyed it .
Elizabeth Bowman (24:42):
I really found this really interesting to talk
about, and there's certainlymuch more to talk about.
Hi, I'm Elizabeth Bowman and welcome to
the Scene Room.
Today I have Ben Hoffman here.
He's the CEO of SquareProductions, a marketing agency
specializing in promoting liveclassical music, with a special
emphasis on cold audienceattraction and retention.
He is just the kind of person Ilike to talk to as an arts
(00:23):
marketer.
I was inspired by something hesaid on LinkedIn, and that's how
this connection all came to be.
So let's get started, ben,welcome to the scene room.
Thanks so much for being here.
Ben Hoffman (00:35):
Thank you for having me Very excited.
Elizabeth Bowman (00:38):
So I was inspired by your recent LinkedIn
post on symphony seasonmarketing specifically.
Before we get into that, I'djust like to know a little bit
about your background, who youare, where you come from, what's
going on.
Ben Hoffman (00:52):
So I'm Ben Hoffman, I am the CEO of Square
Productions and we are amarketing agency that
specializes in social mediamarketing for symphony
orchestras and, in particular,social media marketing for
symphony orchestras and, inparticular, finding cold
audiences and keeping them,having them come back.
I've been a professionalphotographer for about 30 years
(01:13):
from Los Angeles and became afilmmaker about 15 years ago and
then two and a half years agowas referred to a symphony
orchestra, brought in to do justtheir basic social media and
help get a season underway, andit has grown into something much
larger than that and has becomemuch more specialized.
Along the way.
(01:34):
We've done everything frombuilding wraps to designing
table toppers and step andrepeats and special invitations
and all kinds of things, butmostly social media.
We continue to do that.
But I have really become kind ofobsessed with the idea of cold
audiences because we have seen achange, certainly in large part
, to the way that we areapproaching social media and
(01:56):
that changes.
When we first started going tothe concerts there were very few
young people and a year laterthere were so many that I had an
usher actually flag me down onenight and say what is happening
.
This is amazing and so verypassionate about that.
Elizabeth Bowman (02:11):
And you're based in Los Angeles.
Ben Hoffman (02:13):
Yeah, so I'm based in Los Angeles, but actually a
lot of our team is in Ukraine,so, as we speak, I'm actually in
the west of Ukraine right now.
One of the things that we aredoing.
I'm very passionate aboutwhat's happening in Ukraine, and
so our idea is to work withAmerican companies and have a
lot of our workers actually inUkraine, which is actually
(02:33):
really beneficial to Americancompanies as well, because we
can do the work at very, verycompetitive rates.
Elizabeth Bowman (02:40):
What's your history with classical music?
I understand you started abusiness for symphony marketing,
but how would we land there?
Ben Hoffman (02:50):
Sure, sure, sure.
You know I was brought up I'm57, so I was brought up when
classical was still part of ourworld, essentially when it was
part of the day-to-day world.
In my teens I ended up hangingout in the avant-garde
performance art scene in LosAngeles and saw a lot of
avant-garde chamber music, brokechamber music, really
interesting stuff, and lovedthat.
Fast forward to living in Ojai,moving to Ojai, california,
(03:13):
about 10 years ago, which isfamous for the Ojai Music
Festival, and ended up doingwork with them, essentially
doing almost passion projectwork.
For instance, I would shoot afilm about Ojai and helping
businesses attract people tocome to the symphony, you know,
showing it as a beautiful place,lifestyle marketing, which is
really what marketing is todaybranding and marketing.
(03:33):
I ended up, very long storyshort, living in North Carolina
for a short time and a woman whohad worked at the symphony,
worked at the Ojai MusicFestival as a consultant,
recommended me to the NorthCarolina symphony.
The Ohio Music Festival as aconsultant, recommended me to
the North Carolina Symphony andwe came on board.
It was the.
They were launching a new musicdirector and it just sort of
took off from there.
It started pretty small and,you know, a year later we
(03:56):
wrapped the front of thebuilding with our designs and
the truck and we do all kinds ofwork for them.
But really social media.
Elizabeth Bowman (04:02):
Great.
And let's get back to thisLinkedIn post that inspired this
conversation.
To begin with, I don't eventhink I was following you at the
time, so it just popped up onmy newsfeed because I guess a
lot of mutual people hadcommented on your post and liked
your post and you were talkingabout the stereotypical symphony
(04:24):
season ad with the maestrobaton and how this might be, I
guess, an outdated visualconcept.
To get to those cold audiences,can you define a cold audience
for the scene room audience?
Ben Hoffman (04:38):
Sure, a cold audience is somebody who
essentially knows nothing aboutyour symphony orchestra or your
performing arts organization.
They are, you know.
What I like to say is, ifyou're at 40 years old, you were
probably raised on Nirvana, youdon't?
You probably don't knowclassical.
You know it from movies.
If you're a chef's tablefanatic, you would have heard
Vivaldi.
So a cold audience is somebodywho doesn't know anything about
(05:00):
you.
Elizabeth Bowman (05:00):
Tell us more about the post and what you were
trying to convey there.
Ben Hoffman (05:03):
You Tell us more about the post and what you were
trying to convey there.
It's been very surprisingactually.
You know, I've been trying toget the message out for a while.
I mean, of course we want togrow the business and attract
more clients and it seems likethe fundamentals of advertising
don't apply to many symphonyorchestras and it's just very
puzzling to me.
You know, if you don't knowanything about classical music
(05:26):
and you see a man holding astick, frowning, I don't know
why that is an attractant.
I just don't, I don'tunderstand.
And I'd also like to say Ithink that I'm especially I'm
the right person to be sayingthis because I am the cold
audience.
Two and a half years ago I knewthe basics.
I knew Beethoven and Mozart.
I knew the basics right, but Isaw Mahler and then Rite of
(05:50):
Spring a year ago, a year and ahalf ago, and it changed my life
.
This is an extraordinaryexperience.
Going to see live classicalmusic is awesome.
I do this job because it'samazing.
I want way more people to knowabout it.
It's like wow.
I mean, it is an incrediblething.
I'm a musician.
I played in rock and roll bands.
(06:11):
There were five of us.
This is 66 people, sometimesHeck, if there's a master
chorale, on stage there'shundreds of people.
Elizabeth Bowman (06:19):
We seem to only be focused on the maestro,
other aspects of the classicalarts, like in opera.
They say the day of the diva isdone, right and uh, not to put
down our maestros, but the dayof focusing on one person for
such a communal experience, Ithink is done.
Ben Hoffman (06:45):
It's very strange.
One of my mentors in this worldtaught me audience place
musicians.
That is the community, right,that is the event itself.
And when you can demonstratethat you're already 10 steps
ahead because you're showingeverything, it's community.
(07:05):
That is the community.
You've given the village aplace right, a central meeting
hall.
You've brought the villagetogether and at the village
there is somebody speaking orentertainment.
Right, there's something thathas brought all of those people
there to only focus on the onething.
It's just not.
It just it's very.
It's very, very, very, verystrange to me.
(07:27):
You know, advertising is abouthow you feel People buy things,
because of how they feel theyfigure out if it was the right
thing to do afterwards.
So how do we want people tofeel?
If there's a man holding astick scowling at me, I feel
like I'm being scolded if Idon't know anything about
symphony music.
If I know something aboutsymphony music, I'm like, ok,
the guy's rocking out, but he'snot holding a guitar or she is
(07:50):
not holding a guitar, right, ifJimmy Page is playing a guitar
or a blues person, for instance,a blues guitar player has got
that, you know.
You know guitar players love togrimace when they're playing,
like hitting that high note andit's just.
He looks very, very intense.
Cool.
If you're a cold audience andyou love rock and roll, you know
why they're grimacing.
If you're holding a stick, it'svery confusing.
Elizabeth Bowman (08:12):
That's a good point.
I mean, I grew up in theclassical sphere, like my
parents, listened to mostlymedieval and Baroque music, so
you know I'm steeped in it fromvery young age, from birth, and
(08:32):
so when I read your post, thereason I think it resonated so
much with me was because Isuddenly took a step back and
thought he's right.
It is almost tone deaf that wewould have this one person with
like a wind machine in theirhair and a stick, and for me I
can obviously hear the bestmoments in symphonic history
(08:53):
when I see that image.
But yes, for someone who's notsteeped in it, who really
doesn't get it, it's hard toimagine what exactly is going on
there.
It's an insider's club.
Ben Hoffman (09:07):
It is and, interestingly, I mean it depends
on the angles too.
I mean, if you're really notseeing the audience, now all of
a sudden the audience isanonymous, but the audience are
the people that you're trying tosell to.
You're not selling to theconductor, you're selling to the
audience, so we should probablysee the audience are the people
that you're trying to sell to.
You're not selling to theconductor, you're selling to the
audience, so we should probablysee the audience.
If you're selling a car,generally speaking, you see the
car.
Elizabeth Bowman (09:25):
So let's get to how we might change this.
What ideas do you have in termsof what one might experiment
with?
Ben Hoffman (09:36):
So the first thing I would say is copy.
The most powerful things thathelp sell things, of course, are
imagery and the message, andI've said this so many times
Beethoven 5, saturday night.
This violin player is going tobe there, or this whoever period
.
Okay, your favorite song isSmells Like Teen Spirit Nirvana.
What are you reading?
(09:56):
You may as well be reading alanguage that is not your chosen
language.
None of that means anything.
You don't know this concert hallbecause they only put on
classical shows, so you've neverbeen there.
You don't know the piece.
You don't know anything aboutthis.
Okay, apparently something'shappening next Tuesday.
Next, like, how fast can youscroll Now?
(10:17):
On the other hand, if you saysomething like you know again,
I'll go back to you.
Know, let's just say Rite ofSpring.
You know, rite of Spring iscoming up.
This thunderous, powerful,incredible music is going to
shake the foundations of thisconcert hall.
You really should come andwitness this.
If you love powerful music, ifyou want to feel the timpani in
(10:37):
your chest, show up.
I mean, I'm being almost vulgarhere, but you know that kind of
messaging like give people areason and beyond that, and so
and that's another interestingpoint too, because you have to
write good copy.
You know.
I want to stop for a quicksecond and say the weirdest
thing happened in the last 20years.
(10:57):
So once upon a time, if youwanted to advertise for
something, you went to anadvertising agency and you paid
professional people to writecopy, shoot something and place
an ad.
Then social media showed up andnow apparently everybody's a
creative director and knows howto write good copy.
What?
Elizabeth Bowman (11:14):
We oversimplify things and we've
lost the expertise of thosespecific areas social media is
advertising today.
Ben Hoffman (11:24):
Organic branded social media is advertising
today.
Brand is everything today.
That is long game advertising,and if there's anything that's
amazing about classical music,it is long game.
It's still going around.
I mean mean, I read somethingthe other day that I thought was
so poignant, like how many artforms are still pulling in
(11:45):
people 300 years later.
Elizabeth Bowman (11:48):
After reading your post and marinating in how
I might imagine, like whatimportant things there are in
terms of marketing, the idea ofrelatability came to mind,
obviously, as you're talkingabout, and I started thinking
that the advertisements shouldconnect with where those people
(12:09):
are.
So you know people.
They should have differentimages, like people playing, For
instance, you've got the Riteof Spring there and all those
intense, thunderous moments.
Maybe put that into abasketball moment, like where
they're suddenly coming up andthen they're going for the shot.
It's like that moment so thatyou can have that, because we
(12:31):
can all relate to that, Even ifI don't play basketball that
they got that impossible shotand it was, you know, and you
can do that in a quick moment inan ad you know, or?
Ben Hoffman (12:42):
Yeah, of course I mean.
It's emotion.
I mean when the conductor, whenboth the conductor's feet are
off the ground and you can seethe band or the audience behind
him, you know something's goingon.
Hey, that looks exciting.
Elizabeth Bowman (12:53):
Yeah.
Ben Hoffman (12:53):
I would like to know more about that.
Elizabeth Bowman (12:55):
Yeah, and then I, yeah, I was just imagining
different moments in everydaylife, where you could have
different moments from thesymphony season, advertising
those everyday life things, andthen there you have the symphony
is everywhere, or the rhythm oflife, or no, I like to say that
(13:18):
a city, once you are part ofthe fabric of a society, once
you're part of the fabric ofyour city, you will succeed.
Ben Hoffman (13:26):
You should always be top of mind.
I mean the best things in yourcity, the best restaurants,
sporting events, whatever it isthat's popular where you are.
Once you've arrived, you wantto be buzzworthy.
You're not going to bebuzzworthy every week, but you
should be buzzworthy prettyoften.
And once you are part of thefabric, your tickets to sell
(13:47):
themselves, because it's justsomething that people do in your
city.
Elizabeth Bowman (13:49):
Community outreach, which seems to be
something that is, I mean, forgranting purposes, it's at the
top of their list, but Iwouldn't say, in terms of
marketing purposes, thatcommunity outreach is not at the
top of the marketing list.
And I think that the communityoutreach needs to move up the
(14:10):
ladder and there needs to bemore of this.
Like we had three musicians atan elementary school today and
then I mean obviously you don'tneed to have videos of them in
the classroom, that's, you knowthe Right, no, no, no, that's
very sensitive.
Ben Hoffman (14:25):
I realize that you can't do that necessarily, but
you can talk about it.
Elizabeth Bowman (14:29):
Yeah, you could have.
You can have one of thosemusicians do a talking head
video on your social media.
Just being like, a child cameup to me.
Didn't even know what a bassoonwas.
That was an amazing moment forme.
They loved the sound of it andthey wouldn't have been exposed
to it unless I had played today.
Ben Hoffman (14:51):
So I think one of the things that I feel like we
do need to work around and it'sperfectly fine to do that is
there are a lot of ways to dooutreach and you don't
necessarily need musicians to doit, and the reason I say that
is because a lot of musicianswant to play music.
They don't necessarily want tobe ambassadors, and that's fine,
I get it, but we need some ofthem to be ambassadors.
(15:11):
But there are so many otherways to do outreach.
You're right, you can have arepresentative come on and talk
about that event.
A teacher I'm sure will.
The way it feels to me sometimesis that the classical world
feels like it's on its back footand it's not.
I have said, if you are asymphony orchestra, everybody
(15:34):
wants to party with you.
That's a huge thing.
What an incredible organizationto be affiliated with.
You know, I think one of thebest ways to grow your audience
is through cross-pollination anddoing it in a micro sort of way
.
Essentially, you know, yes tobig corporations who want to
partner with symphonies, butalso the hot dog stand down the
street or whatever it is.
(15:55):
You know the popular placethat's in your city that people
love going to hook up with themand do a new one every month.
Do this all the time.
You know another thing this isnever going to stop.
Social media is here.
This is constant forever.
You know another thing this isnever going to stop.
Social media is here.
This is constant forever.
You know I keep saying that too,which is, you know, come up
with an idea, test it, pivot,put it out again, repeat forever
(16:17):
.
And that's the exciting part Imean.
This is to me, this is the newgolden age.
We have a million tools at ourdisposal.
You know you did a post theother day about augmented
reality.
Million tools at our disposal.
You know you did a post theother day about augmented
reality.
Amazing, why aren't we doingmore of that?
Like, there's so much cool techout there.
There are so many ways toamplify your organization.
You just have to want to do it.
Elizabeth Bowman (16:38):
Obviously, there are some major costs
associated with stuff likeaugmented reality, which is why
I was talking about thepotential for corporate
partnerships in that vein,because, like the symphony and
opera, there's epic imagery inall of it, which is a perfect
partnership for largeinstallation augmented reality
(17:03):
work, so it makes sense to me.
Ben Hoffman (17:06):
There is, and the other thing is there's always.
You know, part of this is beingcreative.
You know, I feel like a jobthat could be at every symphony
if they could afford it is, youknow, having somebody
essentially who's just engagingwith new technology.
It's like a PR, communications,new technology director,
somebody who's just trying tofind every possible cool, new,
(17:29):
interesting way to get the wordout, because there are also a
lot of new companies that riseup all the time.
Who will do partnerships?
Because, again, you're asymphony orchestra, if you're a
technology company with a newvisual technology and you're
trying to build up yourportfolio.
I'm not saying every symphonyis going to have access to this,
but I think there's so muchopportunity out there for
(17:52):
companies to help each other andthe calling card of an
organization like a symphonyorchestra is just, you know,
it's like a football field-sizedcalling card.
Elizabeth Bowman (18:04):
It is a beautiful thing Musicians
playing either in chamber musicform or in large symphony form
or in solo form.
A lot of these instruments arebeautiful to shoot.
Ben Hoffman (18:16):
Oh yeah.
Elizabeth Bowman (18:17):
And also multidimensional in terms of
what's happening, like a violinwith the bow hair and you know
all the drama and the sweat.
Ben Hoffman (18:27):
Yeah, no, it's great.
I mean, some of my favoriteshots are, of course, are the
conductor and the guest.
You know, at the end it justlooks like they ran a marathon
or something like you know,something amazing happened.
That's great stuff to post, youknow.
You talked about the musicianand the passion too.
You know that's another thing.
Everything that can be anattractant should be used as an
attractant.
We need more smiling shots.
Look, I'm a as a professionalphotographer, when I'm shooting
(18:50):
I get kind of intense,unfortunately, or whatever.
Like I sort of have restingserious face and I know a lot of
musicians do too, and that'sfine.
But between songs, a smile inphotos, like I don't care if you
have to stage it, people areattracted to joy.
Again, this is a cold audience.
(19:11):
A warm audience already knowsthat it's going to be joyful,
but a cold audience just doesn't.
And I know this too because youknow, for all of the, I've read
so much about focus groups andthese people are saying this and
these people are saying thatand, like I have spent a lot of
time in concert halls justtalking to people, and usually
young people and older audiences, and it's very interesting to
(19:33):
hear what they're.
You know what they have to say,because their experience is
very different than somebodywho's been going for 30 years.
It just is.
Elizabeth Bowman (19:40):
Do you think that, in terms of marketing
retention idea, our job as artsmarketers is not finished with
the campaign but once they enterthe hall, there needs to be the
continuation of that campaign.
The marketing effort iscontinued during the experience
of being in the hall.
I feel like once everyone's inthe hall, they're like the
(20:02):
numbers are like this and we'regood, We've hit the target like
this and we're good, We've hitthe target.
Ben Hoffman (20:10):
And then so again, you know that was my
conceptualized test pivot market, you know forever.
So two things about that yeah,A thousand percent.
I think they should be taken bythe hand through the experience
and after the experience, andforever.
One.
Two I think that we have tofocus on getting people to the
right concert the first time.
So I believe that one of thereasons people don't come back
is because they went to thewrong concert.
(20:31):
If you love sweet, soft music,you should not go see Stravinsky
, and if you go, you'll probablybe bummed out, and vice versa.
And I know that because of howmany concerts I saw as a cold
audience member and I didn'tlike all of it.
Of course, it's perfectlynatural, and some stuff I was
like, wow, this is the greatestthing I've ever heard in my
entire life.
I want to see more of this, andso if we can honor people's
(20:54):
curiosity by really telling themabout the concert you said, how
do we draw new people?
And we tell them what is itgoing to sound like?
What is it going to feel like?
Is there a modern band that youcan identify?
This classical piece that's 100years old, Does it remind you
of Adele or something like that?
Is there a way to talk about itin such a way where the person
who listens to that kind ofmusic will go hey, I'd like to
(21:17):
experience that.
Or it's something bombastic andyou can say to somebody who
loves rock and roll hey, man,this is like rock, this is like
rock and roll.
And then they come and they'relike that was like rock and roll
.
I, this is like rock and roll.
Elizabeth Bowman (21:29):
And then they come and they're like that was
like rock and roll.
I would like to go again.
That reminds me of thosepersonality tests Right.
Ben Hoffman (21:35):
They should have those Right.
Yeah, no, totally.
Elizabeth Bowman (21:49):
If you, what image do you relate to?
A, b, c or D?
And then you go there or likewhat's sonic passage?
You know they could give fourdifferent sonic passages and
then you would go into whateverthat survey took you to and then
it would choose the top threeconcerts for you that season.
Ben Hoffman (21:58):
That could be fun actually that's a brilliant idea
.
That is an absolute.
I love it.
A personality test on asymphony orchestra website but
that's beautiful.
That's the kind ofout-of-the-box thinking that you
know how can we attract morepeople?
We should try everything.
We should try everythingbecause we don't know what's
(22:19):
going to work.
You know, I posted about thisthe other day too.
Which is the beauty of socialmedia is, if it sucks, it
doesn't matter, as long as youdidn't say something
inflammatory.
If you're just trying a newmethod of advertising and it,
you know, it falls flat.
Yeah, great, I got six moredays to play with this week.
We should be trying everything.
Personality test on a website Iwant to put that on my website.
(22:43):
That's like so good.
Elizabeth Bowman (22:45):
If you had one piece of advice to give to
symphony marketers, or evenopera marketers arts marketers
to stand out in today's crowdedmedia landscape, what would it
be?
Ben Hoffman (22:57):
Two things I want to say.
I don't think it's that crowded.
I don't think it's that crowdedbecause most symphonies don't
have two symphony orchestrasnext door to each other, and I
think that is a misnomer andwe've proven it.
My company has proven itthrough good targeting, doing
social media marketing.
So I think we're actually in aunique position where we're
actually offering somethingthat's truly unique to our
(23:18):
cities.
So that's number one.
Two, I would say have fun andreally, before you choose a font
or write a single word orchoose a picture, figure out how
you want people to feel whenthey look at that ad, when they
look at that social media, whenthey look at that organic, when
they look at anything From thetime they show up in the parking
lot till they're sitting intheir seats and they're back at
(23:39):
home.
How do you want those people tofeel?
How would you want to feel ifyou put yourself in their shoes
and imagine that they don't knowanything about classical music?
Like nothing.
They know nothing aboutclassical music.
What would you tell them?
Because, after all of the stuffthat I write and I talk about, I
get really emotional about thisstuff.
I get emotional about thinkingabout it right now, because I
(24:01):
think that this art form is soextraordinary.
Just put your heart into yourmarketing, put your everything
into your marketing and talkabout it the way it makes you
feel, when you're at yourfavorite classical concert or
when you're at your favoriteballet.
You know, I used to go to theballet with my mom when I was a
kid and she would sit theresobbing at just time.
I didn't know why she was doingthat.
(24:22):
At certain times, you know, myfather, when he hears Pink Floyd
Comfortably Numb for the20,000th time, still closes his
eyes and is lost in it.
Let's find a heart in whatwe're doing.
That's what I would say.
Use your heart.
Elizabeth Bowman (24:36):
I hope that we'll connect more in the future
and stay in touch.
I would love that.
Ben Hoffman (24:41):
I really enjoyed it .
Elizabeth Bowman (24:42):
I really found this really interesting to talk
about, and there's certainlymuch more to talk about.
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