April 21, 2025 • 27 mins
In this Lived Experience episode Marissa Taylor shares her family’s experience of School Can’t as her various children each subsequently but very uniquely have their own School Can’t Experiences. Marissa shares the very different experiences she’s had dealing with schools in this journey and her learning curve into Home Education.
This is Part 1 of our discussion with Marissa. In Part 2 she will share how Dr Ross Greene’s Collaborative and Proactive Solutions (CPS) model has been transformative for her family.
Recommended Resources
- Dr Ross Green - Lives in the Balance website for CPS - https://livesinthebalance.org/
- School Can’t Australia Facebook Community - https://www.facebook.com/groups/schoolphobiaschoolrefusalaustralia
- Make a donation to School Can’t Australia - https://www.schoolcantaustralia.com.au/get-involved
If you are a parent of carer in Australia and experiencing distress, please call Lifeline on 13 11 14 or contact the Parent Help Line. - https://kidshelpline.com.au/parents/issues/how-parentline-can-help-you
You can contact us to volunteer to share your School Can't story or some feedback via email on schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com
Disclaimer
The content of this podcast is based on personal lived experiences and is shared for informational and storytelling purposes only. It should not be treated as medical, psychological, or professional advice under any circumstances. If you have concerns about your health or well-being, please seek guidance from a doctor, therapist, or other qualified professional.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leisa Reichelt (00:05):
Hello and welcome to the School Can't
Experience Podcast.
I am Leisa Reichelt, and thispodcast is brought to you by the
School Can't Australiacommunity.
Caring for a young person who isstruggling to attend school can
be as stressful and isolatingexperience, but you are not
alone.
Thousands of parents acrossAustralia and many around the
world face similar challengesand experiences every day.
(00:26):
Today we have another of ourlived experience episodes.
We are talking with MarissaTaylor, who is a mom of five.
She describes their family'sexperience of School Can't as
being a bit of a domino effect,although each child's experience
was of course unique.
Marissa is also a huge fan andadvocate of Dr.
Ross Green's collaborative andproactive solutions or CPS
(00:47):
method, and she has so much toshare about how this has helped
her family that we've split thisepisode into two parts.
In part two, we're gonna digspecifically into the CPS
method.
But in this first part, Marissashares the experience that her
family has had with SchoolCan't.
Before we start, just a quickcontent warning.
In this episode, we do mentionsuicidal thoughts, though we
(01:09):
don't discuss them in anydetail.
Please take care while listeningand do reach out for support if
you need it.
Alright.
Shall we get cracking?
Marissa Taylor (01:18):
Let's get started.
Leisa Reichelt (01:20):
Maybe just give us some context about you, about
your family, anything that youthink would be helpful for
people to know.
Marissa Taylor (01:26):
Okay.
So, we are a neurodivergentfamily.
We are a late diagnosed familyor mostly late diagnosed.
There's myself, my husband, andmy five children.
It was actually my fourth childwho was three at the time, who
went through a fulldevelopmental regression and
they were the first in ourfamily to be diagnosed as
(01:47):
autistic.
Going through all of thosedevelopmental questions that you
generally have to go through,especially when you're starting
to see therapists for the firsttime, through that questioning
that led to me realizing it wasfor my older children as well.
It wasn't just for that child inparticular.
(02:09):
However, as all of that washappening, my children were
going through School Can't.
It was my second oldest childthat started first that was
really having a lot of issuesfirst.
So once we started supportingthat child through the School
Can't process, it's like myother kids recognized what was
(02:29):
going on.
So, it was almost like a dominoeffect.
As soon as one child startedreceiving supports, it was
almost like the other childrenrecognized that they too needed
supports.
And then it was just one childafter another.
So, at our crisis point, myfifth child was only 12 months
old so I was just raising ababy.
Around age three, my fifthchild, got diagnosed as
(02:52):
neurodivergent as well.
And then I myself went throughthat process, in 2023 and 2024.
We're kind of all on our ownjourney as a family through
neurodivergence.
Leisa Reichelt (03:04):
Were you the last to get your diagnosis?
Marissa Taylor (03:08):
My husband is undiagnosed, but we are
recognizing the neurodivergencein my husband.
but yes, I would be the last oneto be diagnosed, at 45 and 46
Leisa Reichelt (03:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
As you were going through theprocess with your kids, did you
see it in yourself quickly ordid it take you a little bit
longer?
Marissa Taylor (03:28):
It took me time.
Leisa Reichelt (03:30):
Hmm.
Marissa Taylor (03:30):
When you have a lived experience of not knowing,
you're just a person movingthrough the world, you don't
recognize certain things untilyou're confronted with it.
As my children were goingthrough their diagnosis process
and I was learning more about,sensory sensitivities I started
going, oh, I can relate to that,but that doesn't necessarily
(03:51):
mean it's me.
So you kind of go through thisbit of doubt.
What really solidified it andgave me that aha moment, was
struggling a lot with my then3-year-old.
The meltdowns were just oneafter the other.
They were very physical in theirresponses.
So there was a lot of hittingand kicking and biting and all
(04:15):
that kind of presentation.
I was really struggling tofigure out how to cope and how
to handle this kind ofpresentation.
One kind mother, pointed metowards Kristy Forbes's work in
the PDA space and said, youknow, this might be what you're
experiencing.
Check it out and see what youthink.
(04:36):
At first I just consumed a lotof the free content.
She was putting out a lot of theFacebook Lives, a lot of her
YouTube content.
And then I, it was just allmaking sense and so I went, yep,
okay.
I bit the bullet and I startedher In Tune With PDA program.
think I only got to that modulefour, and I was like, I paused
(04:57):
and I was, I, I sat there andwent, this is me.
I'm actually learning aboutmyself.
Yes, it's my kids too,obviously, but the first thing
that just came to me was I'mlearning about myself here.
And so then I
Leisa Reichelt (05:10):
Wow.
Marissa Taylor (05:11):
to my psychologist and I was like, I
think it's me too.
And surprisingly at the sametime, the psychologist I was
seeing at the time, she had justdone her training in autism
assessments and she said to me,you know what?
I can see it now.
And we put the two and twotogether and then I went through
the process of formal diagnosiswith another psychologist.
Leisa Reichelt (05:33):
How did getting your own diagnosis help you
manage what you were having todo in supporting your kids?
Marissa Taylor (05:41):
For my brain, I need a way forward.
Like I need to see a pathforward, or I need something
that's gonna give me informationand go, okay, now I have
something to hold onto.
I can then run with it and seewhere I end up.
So getting the diagnosis wasreally about information for me.
Now that I have this word,autism in my life, what does
(06:02):
that mean?
And I could then go and forwardand do my own learning in this
space.
It was really aboutunderstanding what it meant for
myself and then for my children,How to differentiate our
experiences.
So, sure, I have this experienceof life, but that doesn't
necessarily mean my childrenexperience the same thing the
(06:22):
same way.
What I think is fine, they mightfind very, very overwhelming.
So it was really about coming toa place where I had to learn
that my brain and my nervoussystem doesn't mean that my
children have the exact samebrain, exact same nervous
system, and exact sameexperience of the same thing.
(06:42):
it was really just aboutlearning, unlearning, and then
relearning.
Leisa Reichelt (06:46):
Tell me about your journey into School Can't.
So you said it was a bit of adomino effect.
Where did it all start?
If you look back.
Marissa Taylor (06:54):
if I look back, if I, if I'm really honest, it
was right back in kindergartenwhen I sent my first child to
school.
The instant change in theirpersonality, who they are as a
person.
I went from having a very chattychild, a very experiential
child.
So someone who had a very highimagination.
Um, once school started forthem, they went to a complete
(07:17):
shutdown.
So, what I mean by that ishaving a child who would tell
you everything about their life,everything that's happening in
the world, to a child who wasjust like, you would say, how
was your day?
And they would respond with,okay.
And then you would say to them,well, what did you do today?
Stuff.
You know, it was one worded, itwas shut down.
(07:38):
It was almost like, I don'twanna talk about this kind of
stuff with you.
Leisa Reichelt (07:42):
It is also like a big cliche though, isn't it?
Like people go, oh, well allkids are like that.
All kids are hard to talk to.
They don't wanna talk to youabout school.
Marissa Taylor (07:49):
Yeah, and that came up.
So when I would first say to theschool, you know, this is how my
child is, and they're like, it'snormal.
Every child goes through that itwill settle down.
They even said, you know, you'llstart to see some behavioral
changes at home.
Well, they get very testy, veryangry.
And that's really becausethey're getting exhausted
through the day.
They just need time to settledown, and everything will be
(08:12):
okay.
That never happened.
I had constant behavioralproblems at home.
They were perfect out in thecommunity.
They were perfect at school.
So it made it really hard.
if I went to the doctors orprofessionals to say, Hey, look,
we are having behavioralproblems at home, it was really
always dismissed and just putdown to me.
And I was always given thatadvice of, you've just gotta be
(08:33):
a firmer parent.
You've just gotta lay down thelaw.
All that kind of reallyunhelpful advice, which you
don't know is unhelpful at thetime you just think, oh, okay,
maybe I'm just too soft.
Or you really start to believethat it is a you problem.
It is not a bigger, widerproblem.
Leisa Reichelt (08:51):
It's beyond unhelpful though, isn't it?
It's detrimental.
Marissa Taylor (08:54):
it is because had I known earlier that there
was another way or a differentway to handle things, I can't
say whether things would'vechanged or things would've been
different.
I can't say that because I wasnever given that opportunity.
I was never given that chance tosee if something different could
have happened, or a differentpath or a different opportunity
(09:16):
could have been taken by us.
We were just led down one pathand that was it.
Because my kids did really wellat school.
They were social.
they had a lot of good friends.
They did a lot ofextracurricular activities.
The teachers would not reportany problems until things became
a problem.
That really started for mysecond eldest child around Year
(09:40):
5 for them.
It, it had nothing to do withacademics at all.
It was really about attendanceissues, just not wanting to go,
not wanting to get outta bed,not wanting to, go to school.
All the very general things thatwe can't really pinpoint, an
issue.
thought perhaps due to age, itmay have been a puberty issue.
(10:02):
When puberty first starts andyou start getting that first
surge of hormones, that canobviously change the way you
respond to the world.
So we thought perhaps, maybe?
Not sure.
The following year through Year6 was just.
it was almost like everythinghad come apart.
Like every issue that I couldthink of was coming undone.
(10:27):
We weren't just battling oneday, it was weeks at a time.
We kind of managed somehow toget through Year 6.
It was just, it was ongoingbattle of go to school, go to
school, go to school.
Leisa Reichelt (10:41):
Yeah, give us an insight of what was the morning
like?
What was a week like?
what did normal look like foryou back then?
Marissa Taylor (10:47):
So normal was just like, you would have a
child that would wake up andthey would not wanna go to
school, and you would have aconstant fight and you would be
saying things like, I've gottago to work.
You have to go to school.
This is how it's gotta be.
When you're in the thick of it,you don't know, you don't have
the words to say, you don't havethe explanations, you don't have
(11:09):
the insight, depth of knowingwhat's going on.
All you know is you have to getthrough your day.
Because we work, because life isbusy, because life is pressing,
it's just that constant battle.
There were some days whereeverything was fine.
There were some days where wedidn't have a problem at all,
and it was just business asusual.
And then there wouldn't, we'dhave this period of just days
(11:32):
and weeks where it would crashdown and you'd be like, I don't
get this.
I don't understand this.
Everything was fine yesterdayand now, today is the problem.
Leisa Reichelt (11:41):
That's the thing, isn't it?
Every now and then you get a dayand you're like, see, you can do
it.
Marissa Taylor (11:45):
Yeah.
Whenever you mention this toanyone, it was like, yeah, it
happens.
You just have to keep pushingthrough it.
Again, there was never anyalternative suggestion.
There was never any let's sitdown and try to figure this out.
It was always just push, push,push.
So somehow we managed to getthrough year six.
(12:05):
I don't, I, I honestly dunno howwe did, but we did.
My child went into high schooland everything was fine.
I had no issues through yearseven with this child.
I was like, everything's good.
Everything's fine.
must have just been a pubertything.
I didn't think anything of it atall.
(12:26):
My husband was a shift worker atthe time.
I was a day worker, so I workedduring the day.
my husband worked variousshifts, so day shifts, afternoon
shifts, night shifts.
When year eight came around, theyear started off perfect,
couldn't ask for a better startto school year, everything
worked out well.
(12:47):
We took a family holiday, insideschool term.
So we got the permission to taketime off to go on a family
holiday.
That family holiday was perfect.
We were happy.
We were a family who just likeevery other family going about
life, as soon as we came homefrom that holiday, and it was
time for school, is when mychild just went, they, they
(13:12):
literally went mute overnight.
We couldn't get them out of bed.
There was no warning nothing tosuggest this was going to
happen.
And because it was so instant,completely blindsided by it, our
first thoughts went to all theugly places you would normally
go.
(13:32):
Like, are you being sexuallyabused?
Is there bullying happening?
Like, what is happening in thatenvironment that has caused you
to shut down the way you've shutdown?
But my child insisted that, thatthat wasn't the case.
When we spoke to the school, wewere very honest and we said,
look, we don't know what's goingon.
Is there anything happening hereat school that we need to be
(13:54):
aware of?
The school was at a completeloss.
Again, nothing on the academicside, nothing on the social
side.
Everything appeared to be as youwould expect it to be, but I had
a child that couldn't even getoutta bed, who couldn't speak.
They, they lost all speech andthen obviously I needed to get
(14:18):
help and support on board.
So I was looking for apsychologist, like, we need
help.
And that's when the threatsstarted from the school.
Leisa Reichelt (14:29):
great.
Marissa Taylor (14:29):
So we really didn't even get much of a chance
to put support in place.
It was literally, you have toget your child to school by law.
We have a wellness room here.
Just drag them to school.
Just get them to school.
And we started doing that and itwas getting really traumatic for
(14:49):
everybody.
And then the threats startedlike, if you don't do this, you
are gonna end up with a fine anda court order.
my husband and I were going,Like why, why we were being
treated like we are criminals?
We have a child who's indistress.
We are trying everything that wecan to work out what's going on.
We didn't even have apsychologist in place yet.
And there was no help from theschool in the sense of, well,
(15:11):
we've got a psychologist, we'llget that help and support for
you.
There was none of that.
There was just get your child toschool
Leisa Reichelt (15:18):
And these threats were coming directly
from the school that you'd beentrying to engage with?
Marissa Taylor (15:23):
Yeah, directly from the school.
And, we got to a point where myhusband had lost it because
obviously it's stressful foreverybody.
He'd come off a night shift andwhen you're coming off a night
shift, you're already tired,you're already exhausted.
This was the last thing heneeded coming home from a night
shift.
And then I was trying to getready for work'cause I'm the day
(15:44):
worker and you know, and I, andof a sudden there was just me
and my child on the floor,crying.
I just got to a point and I saidto myself, I can't do this like
this.
This is not healthy.
You cannot tell me that this isa healthy way to live.
I just stopped and I just, Iapologized to my child, gave
(16:06):
them a hug, put them back intobed.
And I said, I am so sorry.
You stay there, I'll work itout.
And that was the day I appliedfor Home Education.
Had no idea what that pathlooked like.
I had no idea what it was allgonna amount to.
I just knew that something hadto change and this was an
(16:30):
option.
And I knew that it would stopthe threats from happening.
And so I was getting all thishelp from the online community
about how to manage and goforward with the application and
the planning and everything likethat.
So that's how we first startedour journey into homeschool and
(16:50):
how our School Can't journeyfirst started.
And like I said, it just kind ofhappened in a domino effect.
Leisa Reichelt (16:57):
Yeah.
Marissa Taylor (16:58):
once I started home educating one child, I was
checking in with the otherchildren as you do, like, are
you okay?
Are you doing well?
And everything was fine untilthey weren't fine.
The next child to stop was myyounger child.
They were in Year 5 at the time.
And I was just like, okay, likeI didn't know if this was just a
(17:19):
case of, my older siblings nowat home every day.
I want to be at home every day.
I didn't know if that was theproblem or if there was anything
else happening.
So again, we persisted with theSchool Can't.
We were like, Nope, you've gottago blah, blah, blah, blah.
'Cause they were in Year 5, Ihad to deal with the primary
school.
The primary school was actuallyreally nice to deal with.
I didn't have a bad experiencewith the primary school.
(17:41):
We had a meeting with the schooland they were really helpful, in
the sense that the teacher thatmy child had in Year 5 was the
same teacher that they had inYear 3 and I'd mentioned one of
my children had just beendiagnosed as autistic.
The teacher said, I'm not anexpert in this area it may be
worth exploring.
The psychologist was there andvery helpful too.
(18:02):
They were willing to do all theassessments.
It was just unfortunate thatthis child couldn't get back
onto the school grounds.
And I had no idea what on earthwas going on.
All I knew was this child didnot wanna go back to school.
I found out through,'cause thischild had a really good,
relationship with theirgrandmother at the time, and I
(18:25):
do know that there was some kindof social incident that
happened.
I didn't know exactly whathappened.
It was just a social incident.
that led to them not wanting togo back.
For my older child, my olderchildren had a lot of internal
presentations, so there wasnothing outwardly that I could
really say was, was causing itor something that you could
(18:46):
really latch onto and go, oh myGod, this is a sign, let's go.
was nothing like that.
So when my older child startedhaving School Can't issues as
well, it was really surprisingbecause again, I didn't have any
preconceived knowledges of any,any issues or any trouble
happening.
(19:06):
My oldest child was the one whohad suicidal ideation and the,
the advice from the psychologistwas to look at alternative
schooling options.
That was the advice from thepsychologist.
So, okay, I went down that routeand I spoke to the principal of
(19:28):
the high school.
And when I did it was a reallydisgusting phone call I had with
the principal.
They basically said to me, allchildren this age are suicidal.
Don't worry about it.
I see it every day.
Just keep sending your child toschool.
Leisa Reichelt (19:45):
Oh my God.
Marissa Taylor (19:46):
when I said, well look, my child has
expressed an interest inDistance Education.
the response that I got was,look, Distance Education is
expensive.
We can't just do DistanceEducation for every kid that
wants it, this will blow over.
Just keep sending your kid toschool.
That was the conversation I hadwith the school principal.
My mind was kind of blownbecause that's not the kind of
(20:08):
response I was expecting.
Leisa Reichelt (20:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Marissa Taylor (20:12):
is thinking about harming themselves.
It's just not the conversation Ithought I was gonna be having.
Leisa Reichelt (20:18):
It seems like quite a negligent conversation
really, doesn't it?
I mean, where is the duty ofcare?
Marissa Taylor (20:23):
I was just, and the fact that they were saying
that this is something theyhandle every day and all kids do
it, I'm like, well, what ishappening at your school, dude?
Like, for real?
I hung up the phone and I lookedat my child and I said, look,
I'm really sorry.
They won't allow DistanceEducation.
I'm gonna pull you out of schooland I'm going to homeschool you.
And my child was like, okay.
(20:45):
And that's what I did.
I have a child that I need tosupport their health and safety
comes first.
Everything else can come next.
But this comes first.
And that was my priority.
Leisa Reichelt (20:56):
So did you have to quit your job or were you
there working on top of homeeducating multiple children?
I
Marissa Taylor (21:01):
eventually had to quit.
By the time the kids started,not going to school, our
mother-in-law was helping uswith the overlap.
as I was going to work.
she was coming in to help lookafter the kids so my husband
could get some sleep.
She was there to help us.
But this was becoming beyond,you know, just helping to care
(21:22):
for kids.
So eventually I took unpaidleave to try and get through the
worst of it.
And then I tried to get backinto work.
By that stage, I had alsodeveloped, an autoimmune
disease, and trying to get backto work whilst you're going
through all of this stuff,whilst trying to take care of
(21:42):
yourself medically, it allbecame too much.
And I just
Leisa Reichelt (21:47):
Well,
Marissa Taylor (21:47):
I'm
Leisa Reichelt (21:48):
even without the autoimmune disease, it sounds
extremely stressful, that musthave been a huge thing for you
to try to do.
Marissa Taylor (21:54):
yeah.
So I had to, it wasn't an easydecision to make because that
did take money away from thehousehold budget.
I was fortunate enough we wereable to work it out,
financially.
I understand that, not allfamilies can do it, but we were
fortunate enough where we couldwork it out.
(22:15):
And that has just been my lifeever since.
So all that happened pre COVIDthen I went into COVID as a home
educator whilst learning about,you know, my children's
diagnosis and everything likethat.
So
Leisa Reichelt (22:30):
yeah.
It sounds, sounds like a lot.
How did you tacklehomeschooling?
So you said you got forced intoit very quickly.
How did you get started?
What have you learned about homeeducating as part of that
process?
Marissa Taylor (22:44):
it was a huge learning curve.
It's very much like steppinginto the School Can't community
when you're first learning aboutit and you're first trying to
learn about.
How do we let go of certainexpectations?
Again, we are so conditioned asa society to think that school
is it.
There's nothing else.
That curriculum is the only wayyou can learn anything.
(23:08):
We so conditioned to believethese certain things.
So, going into Home Educationwas really hard because inside
the homeschool community, youwill start hearing things like,
deschooling, unschooling.
You don't have to followcurriculum.
(23:29):
You don't have to run your homelike a school.
There's such a contradictionbetween what we know versus what
we are going to.
So again, it was anotherlearning process where I had to
unlearn about education and whatwe think we know about learning
and education and school.
I had to dismiss all of that andthink, okay, I know nothing
(23:50):
about schooling, I know nothingabout education.
What is this really looking likefor us as a family?
And it took, I would say about18 months before I really found
my feet inside homeschooling.
But I had to go through a hugelearning process, and that's
ongoing.
It doesn't stop.
So the deschooling process isbasically, again, shaking off
(24:16):
the mainstream and societalexpectations of what school
looks like, of what learninglooks like.
And really focusing on yourselfand your family and your kids.
It's really honing that down andthinking to yourself, how do I
make this work?
Realistically, not dreamingabout the end goal, but just how
is this gonna play out day today in a realistic sense of the
(24:39):
word?
And that's where, so everythingcan kind of collide because I, I
do have children with highsupport needs.
Even though my three childrenwere older and already had,
schooling experience, it's homenow.
Home is a safe space.
(24:59):
Trying to say to them, well, nowyou're gonna do schoolwork on
top of that wasn't necessarilygoing to be the right thing.
With my two older children-academically, they were fine.
There was nothing academicallythat they had to really do or
work on.
They were the kind of studentswho were A grade students.
For my third oldest child, theywent into a complete full
(25:24):
burnout.
So they completely shut down athome.
There was no way I was gonna getany kind of learning happening.
I really had to rethink andreexamine everything.
And that will kind of segue usinto Dr.
(25:45):
Ross Green's work'cause this iswhere it all came to a crunch.
Leisa Reichelt (25:49):
And on that cliffhanger we are going to wrap
up the first part of thisepisode with Marissa Taylor.
We'll post part two very soon.
And in that you'll learn allabout how using Dr.
Green's CPS method has beentransformative for Marissa and
her family.
We hope to share many moreSchool Can't lived experience
stories, and if you have aSchool Can't story that you
would like to share, pleaseemail us at
(26:10):
schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com.
It really is a very easy and notscary process to share your
story, and I know so many peoplelove hearing these stories and
find them so helpful.
We have put a link to the SchoolCan't Australia website and to
Dr.
Ross Green's website in theepisode notes for you, and also
a link to donate to School Can'tAustralia.
Your tax deductible donationsassist us to raise community
(26:33):
awareness, partner withresearchers, produce resources
like webinars and this podcast,which all assist people who are
supporting children and youngpeople experiencing School
Can't.
If you are a parent or carer inAustralia and feeling
distressed, remember you canalways call the Parent Helpline
in your state.
A link with the number to callis in the episode notes.
(26:56):
Thank you again for listening,and we will see you for part
two.
Take care.
Hello and welcome to the School Can't
Experience Podcast.
I am Leisa Reichelt, and thispodcast is brought to you by the
School Can't Australiacommunity.
Caring for a young person who isstruggling to attend school can
be as stressful and isolatingexperience, but you are not
alone.
Thousands of parents acrossAustralia and many around the
world face similar challengesand experiences every day.
(00:26):
Today we have another of ourlived experience episodes.
We are talking with MarissaTaylor, who is a mom of five.
She describes their family'sexperience of School Can't as
being a bit of a domino effect,although each child's experience
was of course unique.
Marissa is also a huge fan andadvocate of Dr.
Ross Green's collaborative andproactive solutions or CPS
(00:47):
method, and she has so much toshare about how this has helped
her family that we've split thisepisode into two parts.
In part two, we're gonna digspecifically into the CPS
method.
But in this first part, Marissashares the experience that her
family has had with SchoolCan't.
Before we start, just a quickcontent warning.
In this episode, we do mentionsuicidal thoughts, though we
(01:09):
don't discuss them in anydetail.
Please take care while listeningand do reach out for support if
you need it.
Alright.
Shall we get cracking?
Marissa Taylor (01:18):
Let's get started.
Leisa Reichelt (01:20):
Maybe just give us some context about you, about
your family, anything that youthink would be helpful for
people to know.
Marissa Taylor (01:26):
Okay.
So, we are a neurodivergentfamily.
We are a late diagnosed familyor mostly late diagnosed.
There's myself, my husband, andmy five children.
It was actually my fourth childwho was three at the time, who
went through a fulldevelopmental regression and
they were the first in ourfamily to be diagnosed as
(01:47):
autistic.
Going through all of thosedevelopmental questions that you
generally have to go through,especially when you're starting
to see therapists for the firsttime, through that questioning
that led to me realizing it wasfor my older children as well.
It wasn't just for that child inparticular.
(02:09):
However, as all of that washappening, my children were
going through School Can't.
It was my second oldest childthat started first that was
really having a lot of issuesfirst.
So once we started supportingthat child through the School
Can't process, it's like myother kids recognized what was
(02:29):
going on.
So, it was almost like a dominoeffect.
As soon as one child startedreceiving supports, it was
almost like the other childrenrecognized that they too needed
supports.
And then it was just one childafter another.
So, at our crisis point, myfifth child was only 12 months
old so I was just raising ababy.
Around age three, my fifthchild, got diagnosed as
(02:52):
neurodivergent as well.
And then I myself went throughthat process, in 2023 and 2024.
We're kind of all on our ownjourney as a family through
neurodivergence.
Leisa Reichelt (03:04):
Were you the last to get your diagnosis?
Marissa Taylor (03:08):
My husband is undiagnosed, but we are
recognizing the neurodivergencein my husband.
but yes, I would be the last oneto be diagnosed, at 45 and 46
Leisa Reichelt (03:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
As you were going through theprocess with your kids, did you
see it in yourself quickly ordid it take you a little bit
longer?
Marissa Taylor (03:28):
It took me time.
Leisa Reichelt (03:30):
Hmm.
Marissa Taylor (03:30):
When you have a lived experience of not knowing,
you're just a person movingthrough the world, you don't
recognize certain things untilyou're confronted with it.
As my children were goingthrough their diagnosis process
and I was learning more about,sensory sensitivities I started
going, oh, I can relate to that,but that doesn't necessarily
(03:51):
mean it's me.
So you kind of go through thisbit of doubt.
What really solidified it andgave me that aha moment, was
struggling a lot with my then3-year-old.
The meltdowns were just oneafter the other.
They were very physical in theirresponses.
So there was a lot of hittingand kicking and biting and all
(04:15):
that kind of presentation.
I was really struggling tofigure out how to cope and how
to handle this kind ofpresentation.
One kind mother, pointed metowards Kristy Forbes's work in
the PDA space and said, youknow, this might be what you're
experiencing.
Check it out and see what youthink.
(04:36):
At first I just consumed a lotof the free content.
She was putting out a lot of theFacebook Lives, a lot of her
YouTube content.
And then I, it was just allmaking sense and so I went, yep,
okay.
I bit the bullet and I startedher In Tune With PDA program.
think I only got to that modulefour, and I was like, I paused
(04:57):
and I was, I, I sat there andwent, this is me.
I'm actually learning aboutmyself.
Yes, it's my kids too,obviously, but the first thing
that just came to me was I'mlearning about myself here.
And so then I
Leisa Reichelt (05:10):
Wow.
Marissa Taylor (05:11):
to my psychologist and I was like, I
think it's me too.
And surprisingly at the sametime, the psychologist I was
seeing at the time, she had justdone her training in autism
assessments and she said to me,you know what?
I can see it now.
And we put the two and twotogether and then I went through
the process of formal diagnosiswith another psychologist.
Leisa Reichelt (05:33):
How did getting your own diagnosis help you
manage what you were having todo in supporting your kids?
Marissa Taylor (05:41):
For my brain, I need a way forward.
Like I need to see a pathforward, or I need something
that's gonna give me informationand go, okay, now I have
something to hold onto.
I can then run with it and seewhere I end up.
So getting the diagnosis wasreally about information for me.
Now that I have this word,autism in my life, what does
(06:02):
that mean?
And I could then go and forwardand do my own learning in this
space.
It was really aboutunderstanding what it meant for
myself and then for my children,How to differentiate our
experiences.
So, sure, I have this experienceof life, but that doesn't
necessarily mean my childrenexperience the same thing the
(06:22):
same way.
What I think is fine, they mightfind very, very overwhelming.
So it was really about coming toa place where I had to learn
that my brain and my nervoussystem doesn't mean that my
children have the exact samebrain, exact same nervous
system, and exact sameexperience of the same thing.
(06:42):
it was really just aboutlearning, unlearning, and then
relearning.
Leisa Reichelt (06:46):
Tell me about your journey into School Can't.
So you said it was a bit of adomino effect.
Where did it all start?
If you look back.
Marissa Taylor (06:54):
if I look back, if I, if I'm really honest, it
was right back in kindergartenwhen I sent my first child to
school.
The instant change in theirpersonality, who they are as a
person.
I went from having a very chattychild, a very experiential
child.
So someone who had a very highimagination.
Um, once school started forthem, they went to a complete
(07:17):
shutdown.
So, what I mean by that ishaving a child who would tell
you everything about their life,everything that's happening in
the world, to a child who wasjust like, you would say, how
was your day?
And they would respond with,okay.
And then you would say to them,well, what did you do today?
Stuff.
You know, it was one worded, itwas shut down.
(07:38):
It was almost like, I don'twanna talk about this kind of
stuff with you.
Leisa Reichelt (07:42):
It is also like a big cliche though, isn't it?
Like people go, oh, well allkids are like that.
All kids are hard to talk to.
They don't wanna talk to youabout school.
Marissa Taylor (07:49):
Yeah, and that came up.
So when I would first say to theschool, you know, this is how my
child is, and they're like, it'snormal.
Every child goes through that itwill settle down.
They even said, you know, you'llstart to see some behavioral
changes at home.
Well, they get very testy, veryangry.
And that's really becausethey're getting exhausted
through the day.
They just need time to settledown, and everything will be
(08:12):
okay.
That never happened.
I had constant behavioralproblems at home.
They were perfect out in thecommunity.
They were perfect at school.
So it made it really hard.
if I went to the doctors orprofessionals to say, Hey, look,
we are having behavioralproblems at home, it was really
always dismissed and just putdown to me.
And I was always given thatadvice of, you've just gotta be
(08:33):
a firmer parent.
You've just gotta lay down thelaw.
All that kind of reallyunhelpful advice, which you
don't know is unhelpful at thetime you just think, oh, okay,
maybe I'm just too soft.
Or you really start to believethat it is a you problem.
It is not a bigger, widerproblem.
Leisa Reichelt (08:51):
It's beyond unhelpful though, isn't it?
It's detrimental.
Marissa Taylor (08:54):
it is because had I known earlier that there
was another way or a differentway to handle things, I can't
say whether things would'vechanged or things would've been
different.
I can't say that because I wasnever given that opportunity.
I was never given that chance tosee if something different could
have happened, or a differentpath or a different opportunity
(09:16):
could have been taken by us.
We were just led down one pathand that was it.
Because my kids did really wellat school.
They were social.
they had a lot of good friends.
They did a lot ofextracurricular activities.
The teachers would not reportany problems until things became
a problem.
That really started for mysecond eldest child around Year
(09:40):
5 for them.
It, it had nothing to do withacademics at all.
It was really about attendanceissues, just not wanting to go,
not wanting to get outta bed,not wanting to, go to school.
All the very general things thatwe can't really pinpoint, an
issue.
thought perhaps due to age, itmay have been a puberty issue.
(10:02):
When puberty first starts andyou start getting that first
surge of hormones, that canobviously change the way you
respond to the world.
So we thought perhaps, maybe?
Not sure.
The following year through Year6 was just.
it was almost like everythinghad come apart.
Like every issue that I couldthink of was coming undone.
(10:27):
We weren't just battling oneday, it was weeks at a time.
We kind of managed somehow toget through Year 6.
It was just, it was ongoingbattle of go to school, go to
school, go to school.
Leisa Reichelt (10:41):
Yeah, give us an insight of what was the morning
like?
What was a week like?
what did normal look like foryou back then?
Marissa Taylor (10:47):
So normal was just like, you would have a
child that would wake up andthey would not wanna go to
school, and you would have aconstant fight and you would be
saying things like, I've gottago to work.
You have to go to school.
This is how it's gotta be.
When you're in the thick of it,you don't know, you don't have
the words to say, you don't havethe explanations, you don't have
(11:09):
the insight, depth of knowingwhat's going on.
All you know is you have to getthrough your day.
Because we work, because life isbusy, because life is pressing,
it's just that constant battle.
There were some days whereeverything was fine.
There were some days where wedidn't have a problem at all,
and it was just business asusual.
And then there wouldn't, we'dhave this period of just days
(11:32):
and weeks where it would crashdown and you'd be like, I don't
get this.
I don't understand this.
Everything was fine yesterdayand now, today is the problem.
Leisa Reichelt (11:41):
That's the thing, isn't it?
Every now and then you get a dayand you're like, see, you can do
it.
Marissa Taylor (11:45):
Yeah.
Whenever you mention this toanyone, it was like, yeah, it
happens.
You just have to keep pushingthrough it.
Again, there was never anyalternative suggestion.
There was never any let's sitdown and try to figure this out.
It was always just push, push,push.
So somehow we managed to getthrough year six.
(12:05):
I don't, I, I honestly dunno howwe did, but we did.
My child went into high schooland everything was fine.
I had no issues through yearseven with this child.
I was like, everything's good.
Everything's fine.
must have just been a pubertything.
I didn't think anything of it atall.
(12:26):
My husband was a shift worker atthe time.
I was a day worker, so I workedduring the day.
my husband worked variousshifts, so day shifts, afternoon
shifts, night shifts.
When year eight came around, theyear started off perfect,
couldn't ask for a better startto school year, everything
worked out well.
(12:47):
We took a family holiday, insideschool term.
So we got the permission to taketime off to go on a family
holiday.
That family holiday was perfect.
We were happy.
We were a family who just likeevery other family going about
life, as soon as we came homefrom that holiday, and it was
time for school, is when mychild just went, they, they
(13:12):
literally went mute overnight.
We couldn't get them out of bed.
There was no warning nothing tosuggest this was going to
happen.
And because it was so instant,completely blindsided by it, our
first thoughts went to all theugly places you would normally
go.
(13:32):
Like, are you being sexuallyabused?
Is there bullying happening?
Like, what is happening in thatenvironment that has caused you
to shut down the way you've shutdown?
But my child insisted that, thatthat wasn't the case.
When we spoke to the school, wewere very honest and we said,
look, we don't know what's goingon.
Is there anything happening hereat school that we need to be
(13:54):
aware of?
The school was at a completeloss.
Again, nothing on the academicside, nothing on the social
side.
Everything appeared to be as youwould expect it to be, but I had
a child that couldn't even getoutta bed, who couldn't speak.
They, they lost all speech andthen obviously I needed to get
(14:18):
help and support on board.
So I was looking for apsychologist, like, we need
help.
And that's when the threatsstarted from the school.
Leisa Reichelt (14:29):
great.
Marissa Taylor (14:29):
So we really didn't even get much of a chance
to put support in place.
It was literally, you have toget your child to school by law.
We have a wellness room here.
Just drag them to school.
Just get them to school.
And we started doing that and itwas getting really traumatic for
(14:49):
everybody.
And then the threats startedlike, if you don't do this, you
are gonna end up with a fine anda court order.
my husband and I were going,Like why, why we were being
treated like we are criminals?
We have a child who's indistress.
We are trying everything that wecan to work out what's going on.
We didn't even have apsychologist in place yet.
And there was no help from theschool in the sense of, well,
(15:11):
we've got a psychologist, we'llget that help and support for
you.
There was none of that.
There was just get your child toschool
Leisa Reichelt (15:18):
And these threats were coming directly
from the school that you'd beentrying to engage with?
Marissa Taylor (15:23):
Yeah, directly from the school.
And, we got to a point where myhusband had lost it because
obviously it's stressful foreverybody.
He'd come off a night shift andwhen you're coming off a night
shift, you're already tired,you're already exhausted.
This was the last thing heneeded coming home from a night
shift.
And then I was trying to getready for work'cause I'm the day
(15:44):
worker and you know, and I, andof a sudden there was just me
and my child on the floor,crying.
I just got to a point and I saidto myself, I can't do this like
this.
This is not healthy.
You cannot tell me that this isa healthy way to live.
I just stopped and I just, Iapologized to my child, gave
(16:06):
them a hug, put them back intobed.
And I said, I am so sorry.
You stay there, I'll work itout.
And that was the day I appliedfor Home Education.
Had no idea what that pathlooked like.
I had no idea what it was allgonna amount to.
I just knew that something hadto change and this was an
(16:30):
option.
And I knew that it would stopthe threats from happening.
And so I was getting all thishelp from the online community
about how to manage and goforward with the application and
the planning and everything likethat.
So that's how we first startedour journey into homeschool and
(16:50):
how our School Can't journeyfirst started.
And like I said, it just kind ofhappened in a domino effect.
Leisa Reichelt (16:57):
Yeah.
Marissa Taylor (16:58):
once I started home educating one child, I was
checking in with the otherchildren as you do, like, are
you okay?
Are you doing well?
And everything was fine untilthey weren't fine.
The next child to stop was myyounger child.
They were in Year 5 at the time.
And I was just like, okay, likeI didn't know if this was just a
(17:19):
case of, my older siblings nowat home every day.
I want to be at home every day.
I didn't know if that was theproblem or if there was anything
else happening.
So again, we persisted with theSchool Can't.
We were like, Nope, you've gottago blah, blah, blah, blah.
'Cause they were in Year 5, Ihad to deal with the primary
school.
The primary school was actuallyreally nice to deal with.
I didn't have a bad experiencewith the primary school.
(17:41):
We had a meeting with the schooland they were really helpful, in
the sense that the teacher thatmy child had in Year 5 was the
same teacher that they had inYear 3 and I'd mentioned one of
my children had just beendiagnosed as autistic.
The teacher said, I'm not anexpert in this area it may be
worth exploring.
The psychologist was there andvery helpful too.
(18:02):
They were willing to do all theassessments.
It was just unfortunate thatthis child couldn't get back
onto the school grounds.
And I had no idea what on earthwas going on.
All I knew was this child didnot wanna go back to school.
I found out through,'cause thischild had a really good,
relationship with theirgrandmother at the time, and I
(18:25):
do know that there was some kindof social incident that
happened.
I didn't know exactly whathappened.
It was just a social incident.
that led to them not wanting togo back.
For my older child, my olderchildren had a lot of internal
presentations, so there wasnothing outwardly that I could
really say was, was causing itor something that you could
(18:46):
really latch onto and go, oh myGod, this is a sign, let's go.
was nothing like that.
So when my older child startedhaving School Can't issues as
well, it was really surprisingbecause again, I didn't have any
preconceived knowledges of any,any issues or any trouble
happening.
(19:06):
My oldest child was the one whohad suicidal ideation and the,
the advice from the psychologistwas to look at alternative
schooling options.
That was the advice from thepsychologist.
So, okay, I went down that routeand I spoke to the principal of
(19:28):
the high school.
And when I did it was a reallydisgusting phone call I had with
the principal.
They basically said to me, allchildren this age are suicidal.
Don't worry about it.
I see it every day.
Just keep sending your child toschool.
Leisa Reichelt (19:45):
Oh my God.
Marissa Taylor (19:46):
when I said, well look, my child has
expressed an interest inDistance Education.
the response that I got was,look, Distance Education is
expensive.
We can't just do DistanceEducation for every kid that
wants it, this will blow over.
Just keep sending your kid toschool.
That was the conversation I hadwith the school principal.
My mind was kind of blownbecause that's not the kind of
(20:08):
response I was expecting.
Leisa Reichelt (20:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Marissa Taylor (20:12):
is thinking about harming themselves.
It's just not the conversation Ithought I was gonna be having.
Leisa Reichelt (20:18):
It seems like quite a negligent conversation
really, doesn't it?
I mean, where is the duty ofcare?
Marissa Taylor (20:23):
I was just, and the fact that they were saying
that this is something theyhandle every day and all kids do
it, I'm like, well, what ishappening at your school, dude?
Like, for real?
I hung up the phone and I lookedat my child and I said, look,
I'm really sorry.
They won't allow DistanceEducation.
I'm gonna pull you out of schooland I'm going to homeschool you.
And my child was like, okay.
(20:45):
And that's what I did.
I have a child that I need tosupport their health and safety
comes first.
Everything else can come next.
But this comes first.
And that was my priority.
Leisa Reichelt (20:56):
So did you have to quit your job or were you
there working on top of homeeducating multiple children?
I
Marissa Taylor (21:01):
eventually had to quit.
By the time the kids started,not going to school, our
mother-in-law was helping uswith the overlap.
as I was going to work.
she was coming in to help lookafter the kids so my husband
could get some sleep.
She was there to help us.
But this was becoming beyond,you know, just helping to care
(21:22):
for kids.
So eventually I took unpaidleave to try and get through the
worst of it.
And then I tried to get backinto work.
By that stage, I had alsodeveloped, an autoimmune
disease, and trying to get backto work whilst you're going
through all of this stuff,whilst trying to take care of
(21:42):
yourself medically, it allbecame too much.
And I just
Leisa Reichelt (21:47):
Well,
Marissa Taylor (21:47):
I'm
Leisa Reichelt (21:48):
even without the autoimmune disease, it sounds
extremely stressful, that musthave been a huge thing for you
to try to do.
Marissa Taylor (21:54):
yeah.
So I had to, it wasn't an easydecision to make because that
did take money away from thehousehold budget.
I was fortunate enough we wereable to work it out,
financially.
I understand that, not allfamilies can do it, but we were
fortunate enough where we couldwork it out.
(22:15):
And that has just been my lifeever since.
So all that happened pre COVIDthen I went into COVID as a home
educator whilst learning about,you know, my children's
diagnosis and everything likethat.
So
Leisa Reichelt (22:30):
yeah.
It sounds, sounds like a lot.
How did you tacklehomeschooling?
So you said you got forced intoit very quickly.
How did you get started?
What have you learned about homeeducating as part of that
process?
Marissa Taylor (22:44):
it was a huge learning curve.
It's very much like steppinginto the School Can't community
when you're first learning aboutit and you're first trying to
learn about.
How do we let go of certainexpectations?
Again, we are so conditioned asa society to think that school
is it.
There's nothing else.
That curriculum is the only wayyou can learn anything.
(23:08):
We so conditioned to believethese certain things.
So, going into Home Educationwas really hard because inside
the homeschool community, youwill start hearing things like,
deschooling, unschooling.
You don't have to followcurriculum.
(23:29):
You don't have to run your homelike a school.
There's such a contradictionbetween what we know versus what
we are going to.
So again, it was anotherlearning process where I had to
unlearn about education and whatwe think we know about learning
and education and school.
I had to dismiss all of that andthink, okay, I know nothing
(23:50):
about schooling, I know nothingabout education.
What is this really looking likefor us as a family?
And it took, I would say about18 months before I really found
my feet inside homeschooling.
But I had to go through a hugelearning process, and that's
ongoing.
It doesn't stop.
So the deschooling process isbasically, again, shaking off
(24:16):
the mainstream and societalexpectations of what school
looks like, of what learninglooks like.
And really focusing on yourselfand your family and your kids.
It's really honing that down andthinking to yourself, how do I
make this work?
Realistically, not dreamingabout the end goal, but just how
is this gonna play out day today in a realistic sense of the
(24:39):
word?
And that's where, so everythingcan kind of collide because I, I
do have children with highsupport needs.
Even though my three childrenwere older and already had,
schooling experience, it's homenow.
Home is a safe space.
(24:59):
Trying to say to them, well, nowyou're gonna do schoolwork on
top of that wasn't necessarilygoing to be the right thing.
With my two older children-academically, they were fine.
There was nothing academicallythat they had to really do or
work on.
They were the kind of studentswho were A grade students.
For my third oldest child, theywent into a complete full
(25:24):
burnout.
So they completely shut down athome.
There was no way I was gonna getany kind of learning happening.
I really had to rethink andreexamine everything.
And that will kind of segue usinto Dr.
(25:45):
Ross Green's work'cause this iswhere it all came to a crunch.
Leisa Reichelt (25:49):
And on that cliffhanger we are going to wrap
up the first part of thisepisode with Marissa Taylor.
We'll post part two very soon.
And in that you'll learn allabout how using Dr.
Green's CPS method has beentransformative for Marissa and
her family.
We hope to share many moreSchool Can't lived experience
stories, and if you have aSchool Can't story that you
would like to share, pleaseemail us at
(26:10):
schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com.
It really is a very easy and notscary process to share your
story, and I know so many peoplelove hearing these stories and
find them so helpful.
We have put a link to the SchoolCan't Australia website and to
Dr.
Ross Green's website in theepisode notes for you, and also
a link to donate to School Can'tAustralia.
Your tax deductible donationsassist us to raise community
(26:33):
awareness, partner withresearchers, produce resources
like webinars and this podcast,which all assist people who are
supporting children and youngpeople experiencing School
Can't.
If you are a parent or carer inAustralia and feeling
distressed, remember you canalways call the Parent Helpline
in your state.
A link with the number to callis in the episode notes.
(26:56):
Thank you again for listening,and we will see you for part
two.
Take care.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com