In this second part of Marissa Taylor’s Lived Experience episode we learn about how discovering low demand parenting and particularly the importance of collaboration through Dr Ross Greene’s CPS (Collaborative and Proactive Solutions) method was transformative for Marissa at a time when she was unsure how best to support her School Can’t children. Marissa shares some interesting ways she’s used CPS in her family and shares how she maintains confidence in taking a non conventional approach to parenting.
Recommended Resources
- Dr Ross Green - Lives in the Balance website for CPS - https://livesinthebalance.org/
- https://illumelearning.com.au/ CPS workshops with Dr Ross Green, and more - https://illumelearning.com.au/
- Dr Dan Siegel - https://drdansiegel.com/
- Dr Stephen Porges, Polyvagal Institute - https://www.polyvagalinstitute.org/
- Dr Mona Delahooke - https://monadelahooke.com/
- Dr Vanessa Lapointe - https://drvanessalapointe.com/
- The Educating Parents Homeschooling and Unschooling group (Facebook) - https://www.facebook.com/groups/TheEducatingParents/
- School Can’t Australia Facebook Community - https://www.facebook.com/groups/schoolphobiaschoolrefusalaustralia
- Make a donation to School Can’t Australia - https://www.schoolcantaustralia.com.au/get-involved
If you are a parent of carer in Australia and experiencing distress, please call Lifeline on 13 11 14 or contact the Parent Help Line. - https://kidshelpline.com.au/parents/issues/how-parentline-can-help-you
You can contact us to volunteer to share your School Can't story or some feedback via email on schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com
Disclaimer
The content of this podcast is based on personal lived experiences and is shared for informational and storytelling purposes only. It should not be treated as medical, psychological, or professional advice under any circumstances. If you have concerns about your health or well-being, please seek guidance from a doctor, therapist, or other qualified professional.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leisa Reichelt (00:05):
Hello and welcome to the School Can't
Experience Podcast.
I'm Leisa Reichelt, and thispodcast is brought to you by the
School Can't AustraliaCommunity.
Caring for a young person who isstruggling to attend school can
be a stressful and isolatingexperience, but you are not
alone.
Thousands of parents acrossAustralia and many more around
the world face similarchallenges and experiences every
(00:25):
day.
Today we continue MarissaTaylor's lived experience story,
which we started in our lastepisode.
In part one, Marissa shared thestory of how each of her
children experienced SchoolCan't in their own unique ways,
and how she felt forced intoHome Education
in today's episode, Marissatalks us through how she has
used low demand parentingskills, and particularly Dr.
(00:47):
Ross Green's collaborative andproactive solutions or CPS
method, and how that has beenreally transformative to her
approach to parenting.
This is not exactly a CPS tutorial though,
so before I hand over toMarissa, I thought it might be
helpful to give just a quicksummary of the key concepts of
CPS for anybody who's notfamiliar, and there is a lot
more information freelyavailable online if you wanna
(01:09):
dig into this further.
Essentially, CPS is a model forparenting without relying on
rewards, punishments, or powerstruggles.
The key idea is simple, butpowerful kids do well if they
can.
When they can't, it's becausethey're lacking the skills to
meet expectations, not becausethey're unwilling.
To figure out what's getting inthe way CPS uses a tool called
(01:30):
the Assessment of Skills andUnsolved Problems.
This helps us to identify thespecific skills a child is
struggling with and the exactsituations where those struggles
show up.
Once we've identified theproblem, CPS then offers three
options.
Plan A is when the adult imposesa solution.
It's often what we go to first.
It's a pretty traditionalparenting approach, but it does
(01:51):
tend to escalate things.
Plan C is when we temporarilydrop the expectation to reduce
conflict.
And Plan B, the sweet spot, thisis where we are working with the
child to understand theirconcern, share our concern, and
solve the problem together.
It's about collaboration, notcontrol, and for many families
(02:12):
it's been a real game changer.
Now let's get back to Marissa.
We're gonna pick up the episodenow as Marissa begins to talk us
through how the move to HomeEducation coincided with some
big new challenges.
Marissa Taylor (02:25):
Home is a safe space.
Trying to say to them, well, nowyou're gonna do schoolwork.
On top of that wasn'tnecessarily going to be the
right thing.
For my third oldest child, theywent into a complete, full
burnout.
So they completely shut down athome.
There was no way I was gonna getany kind of learning happening.
(02:49):
So I really had to rethink andreexamine everything.
And that will kind of segue usinto Dr.
Ross Green's work.
'Cause this is where it all cameto a crunch
Leisa Reichelt (03:04):
Beautiful.
Let's hear about that.
Marissa Taylor (03:07):
Where that played into my life was really
because I was stuck.
I was really stuck.
I knew I had to change things.
I knew I had to change myapproach.
I didn't know how, I didn't knowwhat that was.
I didn't understand how to makeit all work and what steps to
take.
(03:28):
When I learned about Dr.
Ross Green's work, I was like,cool.
I kind of get that, like it's, Iwas kind of on that space
anyway.
So if you understand Plan B,Plan B is basically a
collaboration between you andyour child.
I was kind of already on thatpage.
I just didn't really realizethat I was still a Plan A
parent.
(03:49):
So Plan A parent is thetraditional type of parenting,
where you're still thinkingabout rewards and punishments
and all that kind of stuff
Leisa Reichelt (03:57):
And you have a way to get things done, and your
job is to get the child to dowhat you want them to do.
Yeah?
Marissa Taylor (04:01):
Exactly.
A lot of, I'm the parent, youare the child.
You do, as I say, kind ofparenting.
And that's when I startedlearning about the process and
the reason why we don't wanna dothe Plan A parenting anymore or
traditional parenting, alsocollided with me learning about
PDA.
So when you learn you've got aPDA child or Pathological Demand
Avoidant child, you're startingto learn already.
(04:23):
Okay, traditional things aren'tworking.
We've been there, we've done allthe traditional things, and if
they were gonna work, they wouldbe working.
We wouldn't have School Can'tkids, we wouldn't have kids in
burnout.
So I already had this generalidea that those things don't
work anymore.
What is gonna work?
So once I started really takinga deep dive into it, and I do
(04:45):
mean a deep dive, I was Googlingit.
I was living and breathing everysingle YouTube I could think of
to learn about it.
I read the Explosive Child, andthen Illume Learning this
beautiful, beautiful company inQueensland, I think they are,
they're Queensland based,decided to run some online
(05:08):
workshops and I was like, yes, Iam on board.
That just kind of brings it alltogether when you can actually
talk to Dr.
Ross Green and really get theniggly questions you want
answered, that really does help.
You don't necessarily need it,but it does help the process.
But what I really had to focuson was the Plan C, which was
(05:30):
letting go of your expectations.
You know, letting go of thethings that you thought were
important in your life reallyaren't.
When it comes right down to thenitty gritty of it, your
children's mental health, theirlife, their wellbeing,
prioritizes everything because.
(05:51):
I didn't have kids to bring theminto the world, to watch them
fade away.
That's not why I became aparent.
It's not why I became a mom.
It's not what spurred me to havea family.
Even though you might have anideal of what your family's
gonna look like and thedirection you wanna head in
life, they are stillexpectations.
(06:13):
It doesn't mean that they won'thappen if you let go of the
expectations, but they're stillexpectations.
You're, asking your kids to liveup to a fantasy world that
doesn't exist yet.
So that was really a lot of thehard work was letting go of the
expectations.
Leisa Reichelt (06:30):
So Marissa, can you give us some concrete
examples of some of the thingsyou remember Plan C-ing as being
an important part of thatprocess,
Marissa Taylor (06:38):
Everything, everything.
Leisa Reichelt (06:41):
but like what gimme a couple of examples.
Marissa Taylor (06:44):
Letting go of the fact that the kids learn
from books., and I'm stillfighting this point, but,
devices are still such adivisive, topic in the
community, and
Leisa Reichelt (06:55):
Yeah.
Marissa Taylor (06:56):
I just had to learn to let go of those
expectations too.
I really had to see things froma different point of view and
that if devices is what got mychildren engaged, if it's what
regulated them, I'm not doingthem an injustice by allowing
devices into the home.
I'm not doing them injustice ifthey are getting a benefit from
(07:19):
devices.
It's a whole shift in the wayyou think and view the world.
And then you really have to,your mind really has to make
that shift.
Because if you're still stuckin, this is bad and this is
good.
If you're putting morality intothe, the equation, you are
(07:41):
missing the development stages.
You are missing the skillsstages
Leisa Reichelt (07:47):
And not just morality.
So like, if I think about twothings that I really struggle
with, one was toothbrushing.
Like having that fight twice aday every day.
It's not ideal.
I don't love it, but, you can'thave a good relationship with a
child when you're having thatsame fight twice a day.
(08:07):
And then the other one that I,for some reason found really,
really difficult was meals atthe table.
Like,
Marissa Taylor (08:14):
That.
That was one of ours.
Leisa Reichelt (08:15):
It kind of pains me a little bit that he still
eats in his room, because we'renot at the point where anyone's
got the energy to have that kindof conversation.
It's funny, it's big things andalso teeny tiny things.
And sometimes the tiny ones, canbe really hard to give away.
Marissa Taylor (08:33):
I had to really undo that myself too.
The way I explained it to afriend of mine who questioned me
on the same thing about thedinner table.
'cause for some reason we havethis, I don't know if anyone is
of the age to remember, Leave itto Beaver the 1950s family where
you're sitting around the dinnertable and everyone's happy and
(08:55):
telling you about your life andyour day.
And it's all airy fairy, likeit's all happy families.
That's kind of how we grew up,even though, you know, I was a
child of the eighties.
It's just kind of how we allgrew up.
Like everyone comes together atthe dinner table and that's how
it is.
And because I'd already gonethrough that process of letting
that go and letting go of thatexpectation.
(09:17):
And when a friend came to me andsaid, you know, how did you do
it?
I said, the first thing you haveto remember is that a table is
just a table.
It doesn't represent anything.
It's a piece of furniture.
It's a plank of wood on somesteel.
You can't have a relationshipwith a table.
You can't connect with a table.
(09:37):
So you have to really start toempathize and use your own
skills and empathy to reallysay, I don't need to connect
with my child through the dinnertable.
It's not a conduit.
It doesn't represent anything.
It's just this ideal that we'veheld onto for so long.
Leisa Reichelt (09:57):
And that battle destroys the connection.
It doesn't build the connection.
Marissa Taylor (10:01):
exactly, and if you are constantly in battle,
then you are on opposite sides.
You're not connecting, you arenot together.
You're not on the same page.
So you're really in battle withyour children rather than in
connection with them.
So you just have to let that go,let that fantasy go.
If your child is naturallywatching TV around dinner time
(10:23):
and they wanna have their foodwhile watching TV.
What's stopping you from eatingwith them, watching the same
thing and saying, Hey, I knownothing about this.
Can you tell me about it?
That is connection that isopening the lines for connection
to happen.
It might not be something thatinterests you and it might be
boring and not stimulating foryourself at all as an adult.
(10:47):
But you wanna get to know yourchild.
You wanna get to know what'sgoing on in their life, in their
world.
And if that's what it is,exciting them, then you wanna
know about it.
You don't have to like, youdon't have to make it your
world.
You just have to know about itand no enough about it that you
can say, oh, hey, the nextepisode's on, oh, did so and so
fix whatever's happening?
(11:08):
And you're getting theirattention.
You are connecting in with them.
And if you have those micromoments of connection and your
kids are with you, they're onthe same page as you, that's
more important than battlingover some fantasy ideal that we
somehow keep in our head
Leisa Reichelt (11:26):
Yeah, it's a really useful way of thinking
about picking your battles,right?
And reducing the demand andreducing the friction between
you and your kids.
Is it something that you'restill using on a daily basis
now?
Marissa Taylor (11:40):
every day.
And my kids Plan B me now.
They just don't
Leisa Reichelt (11:44):
Oh, really?
Marissa Taylor (11:45):
they just dunno what it means.
So, you know, if my child wantssomething to eat and I'm off
making it, and I'll say, Hey,can you come and grab this on
your way through to wherever youare going?
They might say, well, you can dothat, I'll just go to the table.
Sure I can do that.
There is no reason to make thata battle.
(12:07):
You don't have to go down thatroad.
You can just think about it andgo, you know what?
I can do that.
I can take myself over to you.
The goal is that they havesomething to eat and drink so
their bodies are nourished.
That is the most important partabout the whole issue.
Leisa Reichelt (12:24):
It's all such a massive mindset shift, isn't it?
From, how I assume you grew up,certainly how I grew up, of like
discipline and do what you'retold and don't be lazy and all
of these things.
And I think it's just, even ifyou've been doing this for a
while, it's still a dailystruggle, isn't it?
To remind yourself away fromthat old way of thinking and
(12:47):
keep yourself in the new way ofthinking and trust the new way
of thinking.
Marissa Taylor (12:52):
Yes, I am a very strong advocate in this area
because I've seen it work and Iknow it works I put myself into
a position where I was like,okay, if I'm gonna have
therapists on board, thetherapists are gonna be on board
with what we are doing.
'cause I know it works.
The therapists that we have inour lives now, they, they are,
purposely built team, I guessyou could say, where I said,
(13:14):
look, this is how we are as afamily.
This is the path that I'm on.
I really need you to be on boardwith this.
If it's something that you havea problem with, then we're
probably not gonna get on verywell.
So I wanted to set it up fromthe outset before we got, seven,
eight sessions into it andrealized, okay, you're the wrong
supports for us.
So I really put it up front andI am so thankful that I did,
(13:36):
because I have built such areally wonderful care team that
supports the way we do it.
Not only that, I, I really putfaith in the therapist that they
were gonna, trust me and myprocess and trust my children
because we do all our therapyvia telehealth.
I have children that will notshow their face on screen.
(13:58):
I've got children who won't talkto therapists.
So a lot of the time they'reseeing me, they're not seeing my
kids.
So I really had to ask for themto trust me and trust the
process.
And even when they startedhaving doubts, I'm like, look,
all I can say to you is pleasetrust the process because I've
seen it work.
(14:18):
I know it works, and I know Ijust need you to have faith.
And I'm so thankful that theywere on board because they're
starting to see the benefits.
Even if they just get a glimpseof a child as they walk through
where they never would before,whether the child pops their
face on the screen and saysHello and waves, and they
(14:39):
disappear, they're now seeingthe benefits of the Plan C, you
know, letting, letting go of theexpectation.
Following through on my instinctas a parent.
Its
Leisa Reichelt (14:53):
such a reversal of the, traditional power
structure, isn't it, where it'slike, Ooh, they're the experts.
I have to sit here and listen tothem and do what they say.
And it feels like from atherapeutic point of view, from
educational point of view,you've really sort of flipped
the script on that and you aresetting the agenda and
Marissa Taylor (15:09):
Absolutely.
And it, it's a lot like youreally have to find the right
people who you can say, look, Iknow myself, I know my kids.
I know the path that we're onand this is the way I wanna move
forward.
Can you move forward with me?
And it's not easy to, asksomeone in that kind of a
position to do that because,there are some therapists who
(15:30):
won't, there are some therapiststhat want what they find,
whatever their agenda is,
Leisa Reichelt (15:35):
Mm-hmm.
Marissa Taylor (15:36):
to be the only thing that matters.
And I really had to come from aplace of, look, I've got kids
and I'm not gonna force them.
So you have to really work withus the way we work, and then
have the patience to see.
But before we move on the othercrucial part to Dr.
Ross's model, which I think alot of parents forget exists, is
(15:59):
the Assessment of Skills andUnsolved Problems.
That is huge.
Because as you're Plan C-ing, asyou're letting go of those
expectations, which I alwaysexplain to parents, especially
when you've got PDA kids, thisis your low demand parenting,
this is where you're letting goof those expectations, and
really just sort of letting,letting your child have some
autonomy and taking over alittle bit.
(16:19):
A lot of parents will go, okay,I've done this, but what next?
This is where Dr.
Ross Green's model really startsto come to life because it's
giving you that next step.
It's giving you that checklistof skills that we all need as
humans to be well in life.
You know, we can't makedecisions if we don't have our
skills in hindsight, forethoughtand reflection, like all of
(16:43):
that.
They're their skills.
These are skills we need inlife.
We can't move forward if wecan't communicate with people
regardless of what kind ofcommunication that is.
We all have to have a form ofcommunication with other human
beings so our needs can be met.
So, that is a huge piece to thepuzzle that you really have to
(17:03):
bring into the model, and youcan't forget about it because
that's what helps you do all theinvestigative work that you need
to do as the parent, as yourPlan C-ing.
So you're not stuck, you're notdoing nothing at all.
You are going, okay, my kid hasissues in transitioning.
Who do I see about that?
What help do I get for that?
What does that even mean?
(17:25):
So, you know, whether you'rereaching out to a psychologist
or an occupational therapist, ora speech therapist or you know,
reaching out to a community.
You're trying to figure out whatthat means for your child and
how you can help your childthrough transitions.
That's a huge part of the modelthat you can't forget and we're
always constantly working on ortowards something, and resolving
(17:47):
that unsolved problem that'sgetting in the way of your child
doing well.
Leisa Reichelt (17:51):
Marissa, do you think people forget it or do you
think they just get overwhelmedby it?
You know, speaking on behalf ofa friend...
like I've downloaded the thingand looked at it and just gone,
oh my God.
even the examples you gave arevery granular and it's like, I'm
gonna have the biggest, longestlist, how is this gonna make
life easier for me?
(18:11):
Just having more things that Iknow we have to do.
Marissa Taylor (18:14):
we've been at this for about four to five
years now.
One of my children still ticksall boxes.
So it's not like we've resolvedlike a lot of things.
We have resolved some things anda lot of that comes with time
and development.
If we look at the brain scienceof child development, the brain
(18:34):
itself does not stop developingtill the mid to late twenties.
So if you've got a 10-year-oldchild, they're still looking at
15 plus years of development oftheir brain.
You're not going to resolvethings overnight.
You're just not going to,that's, so, that's the realistic
part of growing up anddeveloping.
You are not going to resolveeverything overnight.
(18:56):
So if you come into thisthinking, it's all gonna happen
and, you know, in two monthstime, everything's gonna be
great and on its way.
No, it's an unrealisticexpectation from the simple fact
from child development.
Our brains don't work that way.
And that's why these things dotake time.
A lot of parents will go intothe questioning side of it, so
the Plan B, trying to figure outfrom the child what's going on
(19:19):
for the child.
But if the child doesn't havethe words or the articulation to
say, this is the problem, howcan they explain to you what's
going on for them.
You're going to get a lot of, Idon't knows, I'm not sure, or
they're just gonna shut down onyou because even they can't
articulate.
I'm a 47-year-old woman,sometimes I can't articulate
(19:41):
what's going on for myself in myown experience.
And my brain is supposedly fullygrown and developed now.
I'm still having to go through,okay, what skills am I missing?
Where have I not developed theright skills?
Or where do I need moredevelopment for myself in order
to do well as a person and as aparent?
Leisa Reichelt (20:01):
Have you done your own lagging skills audit on
yourself?
Marissa Taylor (20:04):
Exactly.
Plan B yourself.
You can Plan B your wholefamily.
Leisa Reichelt (20:07):
I love that.
Marissa Taylor (20:07):
It's a free little list that you can do it
for everybody.
And that's the brilliant thingabout Dr.
Ross Green's model too.
It's not just about parenting.
It is about being a human andmoving through this world as a
human being and the skills thatyou need to move forward in
life.
So this relates to yourrelationship with your partner
or spouse, It's how you getalong with your colleagues, your
bosses, your employees.
(20:29):
It's how you relate to otherhuman beings.
If you have a breakdown incommunication, communication is
a two-way street.
So if you're breaking down withcommunication, then you have to
figure out, okay, where am Igoing wrong and how can I meet
the other person on the otherside?
You have to be working incollaboration with whomever
you're speaking to.
(20:51):
It's the same thing, empathy's atwo way street.
We are not just asking you toreceive empathy from people.
You have to then understand howcan I see life through their
eyes and understand what issuesthey're facing?
It's a two-way street.
That's why collaboration is soimportant because a lot of the
skills that we want our kids toexhibit are not one way street
(21:13):
skills.
They're two way street skills.
We have to be able to model themin order for our kids to learn
what that looks and feels likein order for them to demonstrate
it.
And if we are not doing that'cause we don't have the skills
or we don't know, then yeah,you're gonna struggle.
I had to do my own learning inemotional intelligence.
Which directly leads toemotional regulation.
(21:33):
And I started learning thisaround 41, 42 ish.
it kind of blew my mind.
I thought we just fumble throughlife and we all figure out how
to handle our own emotions fromour experiences.
But no, turns out that's not thecase.
There's actually a, a reallygood, skillset that we have to
learn in order to control ouremotions, in order to deal with
(21:57):
our emotions.
And 99% of us did not grow upunderstanding that at all.
And then when I started learningabout emotional intelligence, I
was just like, oh my gosh, noone told me about this.
No one pulled me aside and said,okay, Marissa, you need these
skills.
Let's build them up for you.
So, I'm going through my owntherapy and building that up and
doing all the work myself now,as an older woman and I'm going,
(22:20):
this would've been reallyhelpful when I was a teenager,
or, this would've been reallyhelpful when I was a kid.
And now I have to learn it so Ican then teach my kids.
And a lot of that is throughco-regulation.
Leisa Reichelt (22:30):
Yeah,
Marissa Taylor (22:31):
You learn it through co-regulation and being
regulated from the outside.
Leisa Reichelt (22:36):
That's such a big part of the job, isn't it?
Assisting with thatco-regulation, and I think
that's a really good point thatyou make, that you need to have
your own set of skills in orderto be able to provide that to
the kids.
Everyone just assumes that wecome with it ready built, right?
Marissa Taylor (22:51):
Yeah.
And that's, it's another goodpoint that it's really
confronting as an adult becauseYou are the one that's supposed
to know everything, and you arethe one that's supposed to have
all the answers, and have it allfigured out.
And then when you get to a pointwhere you're like, well, I
don't, I don't have all theanswers, I don't have it all
figured out, and you really haveto start moving forward from
(23:12):
there.
You do get stuck feeling theweight of all that, all the
pressure that you get,particularly where there's a lot
of parent blaming and parentshaming.
You do start to feel that and,and you start to think, well,
maybe it is me.
You really have to learn how tonumb all the noise out and bring
it back to yourself and bring itback to your family and say,
(23:34):
Nope.
What do I need?
What do my children need, andhow do I move forward from here?
And that's hard.
It's, it's not an easy process.
It, it does take time,especially when you've got
friends and family who also donot have faith that you can do
these certain things.
You really have to learn how toshut them out.
And say, you know what?
I know myself, I know mychildren and I know what we
(23:57):
need.
And even if that is just basicmental health, like we need to
make sure that we're in a goodmental health space and we are
not, constantly in dysregulationand constantly in a spiral of
anxiety and depression.
Even if that is just your mainfocus, that is still one step
forward.
Leisa Reichelt (24:16):
It's very true, Marissa, but I wonder whether
you have had moments whereyou've stared at the ceiling in
the middle of the night going,am I doing the right thing?
Am I doing the right thing?
Marissa Taylor (24:27):
I still do, I still do.
Leisa Reichelt (24:29):
I find that so reassuring to hear you say that.
Marissa Taylor (24:32):
I still do it.
Like I said, we are soconditioned by society and the
world and it's really hard toflip it on its head and say, you
know what, no, that is not theway it's supposed to be.
You really have to trust thescience and trust the knowledge
that we are getting through.
(24:52):
And I think this is somethingthat's really, really difficult
because we are up againstgovernments and systems that are
still very much on thebehaviorist point of view.
And so it's really hard to comeback on that and say, well, hey,
you're wrong.
And this is how it is.
It's really hard when you areinside those systems that are
saying, no, this is the wayforward.
(25:14):
And you are coming at it from acompletely different approach.
But this is where a lot of the,like for example, Dr.
Ross Green, Dr.
Dan Siegel, Dr.
Steven Porges, who does a lot ofthe polyvagal theory, Dr.
Mona Delahook, who does theinterpretation of neuroscience
and puts it into parentaleducation.
(25:34):
Dr.
Vanessa Lapointe, who works withour own Maggie Dent.
There are alternatives.
We have the research overdecades, not just a decade, but
over 75 years of research intohuman behavior, child
development, brain development,emotional development.
There is a lot of science toback this up.
(25:56):
And when you put your faith andtrust in that and you go, okay,
let's give it a go, it works.
But it does take a lot of usletting go of those expectations
and demands and just letting theprocess take over.
And surprisingly, when you dothat you start to reflect upon
(26:19):
yourself and say why didn't Ihave this as a child?
Or why couldn't this havehappened in my early twenties
when I was fumbling throughlife?
Why couldn't someone just say,Hey, you know, this is the way
forward and you can have this,it would've made life so much
better.
But unfortunately it's us now asparents with kids that are
struggling and we're starting tolearn it from scratch now.
(26:42):
But once you put the work in,you get to the other side of it.
And I mean, my life now is notpicture perfect, but we are not
in crisis anymore.
Leisa Reichelt (26:53):
Yeah, I was gonna ask that you've been doing
this like four, five years now.
How is the family doing?
Marissa Taylor (26:59):
Better.
Like I said, it's not pictureperfect.
Two of my children are nowadults who are still trying to
find their feet in life, butthey are moving forward in their
own way, in their own time,getting the support that they
need for their goals.
It's not about school anymore.
It's not about me or what I hopefor them, it is about their life
(27:21):
and how they wanna lead theirlife.
It's not that you stop being aparent, you are always a parent,
but you take a little bit of abackseat you start to become the
supporter and the champion foryour child.
With my younger two kids.
I put them straight through tohome education.
I didn't put them into themainstream system because I'd
already had experience with notbeing supported.
(27:43):
They are two kids that have muchhigher needs.
They are, nine and seven now,and they are starting to become
aware, that they schooldifferently.
They're different to other kids.
This is one of the brilliantthings about them being exposed
to certain things on YouTube,which a lot of people don't
like, they're starting tounderstand like, you know, kids,
(28:03):
grow up and they get detentionsand kids grow up and get into
trouble and kids get intotrouble from doing homework.
You can still have LearningCan't issues, especially when
you have neurodivergent childrenand PDA kids.
But inside Home Education, youhave the flexibility of going,
you know what, if this can't bedone right now, that's okay.
(28:24):
We don't have any deadlines andwe don't have any pressure to,
to meet anything or meet anyexpectations except for our own.
And if we're already in a placewhere we can let go of those
expectations, it's okay.
My kids are still learning andthey're thriving.
And I think that's the mostimportant part
Leisa Reichelt (28:42):
Absolutely.
Marissa Taylor (28:43):
So I'm still reflecting on my life and
figuring things out for myself.
So I don't feel like I've got itall together.
But all I can say to you is it'sworking and we're in a much
better place.
I've got kids that want to livenow.
You know that it's the oppositeof where we were.
(29:03):
I've got kids that are thriving.
We are getting a lot of help andsupport now, and life is just,
it's working.
It's not perfect.
It's not exactly where wethought we would be.
but it's working I can't ask forbetter than that, honestly.
Leisa Reichelt (29:20):
Let's move on to our final three questions.
Marissa Taylor (29:22):
Okay.
Leisa Reichelt (29:22):
If you could go back in time and tell yourself
something, when would you go toand what would you say?
Marissa Taylor (29:28):
For myself personally, I'd go back to
myself as a little child,because when you start doing
this work of reframingeverything, you realize that it
starts way back when you were alittle kid and you were first
learning things in life.
If I could say anything tomyself, I would probably go back
to about 4 or 5-year-old littleme and just tell myself that
(29:51):
you're gonna be okay.
'Cause I think especially whenyou're an undiagnosed person
moving through the world, youreally take on board the
negativity that people say aboutyou.
You really start to believe,well, maybe I am just lazy, or
maybe I am just a helpless,hopeless human being.
(30:12):
You really start to onboard allof that negativity from such a
young age.
So if I could, I would just sayto myself, no, you've got this.
You'll get there and you'll knowhow to do it and you'll do it
well.
And just give myself thatconfidence from such a young age
to hopefully change thatnegative experience that we
(30:33):
generally have.
And it all starts fromchildhood.
Leisa Reichelt (30:36):
Yeah.
That's beautiful.
For everyone who's listening,who's on whatever part of the
School Can't journey thatthey're on right now, what would
you like to say to them?
What would you like them toknow?
Marissa Taylor (30:46):
Understand regulation.
In our community, we are highlystressed.
it's not just our kids that aregoing through it.
We are going through it too.
And we can't do our bestthinking, we can't do our best
decision making when we areemotionally hijacked ourselves
and living from our own fightflight response.
(31:08):
If I reflect back on my ownjourney, it wasn't until I made
the decisions to get us to aplace of regulation where we
could just have that moment tobreathe, get supports in place,
and really start to figurethings out, that's when the path
became much clearer for us.
Before then, I was just fumblingmy way through trying to figure
out what what we needed.
(31:29):
But once you have that moment oftime and space where you can
really calm your nervous system,start thinking rationally about
things.
Really start planning out how ismy life gonna look realistically
if I go down this path, or if Ido this?
You can start to logically putthings in place and explore all
your options rather than justputting up a wall going, no,
(31:50):
this is too hard and I can't doit.
Find your space of regulation,find what's gonna ground you as
a human being, so you can makethe decisions you need to make
for yourself and for yourfamily.
Leisa Reichelt (32:02):
That's excellent advice.
Not always easy to do, but,worth the effort.
Marissa Taylor (32:08):
definitely
Leisa Reichelt (32:08):
And then finally, and I feel like I might
know the answer to this one,what is the resource that you
think everybody who has SchoolCan't young people should know
about?
Marissa Taylor (32:18):
There's kind of two really.
So, well, three, the obvious oneis the School Can't, website and
parental peer support group.
The second one is Dr.
Ross Green's Collaborative andProactive Solutions model.
I do believe this is really theway forward for every human
being.
Because I've lived it, I'veexperienced it, I've seen the
(32:40):
rewards from it the fact that itdoes work.
So, and our group values is thatkids do well if they can.
And that is so true and it'sjust the same, parents do well
if they can.
Educators do well if they can.
Everyone does well if they can.
And the third one is to reallyexplore your options.
(33:02):
School is not the only wayforward.
We do have two other options inAustralia, which are legal,
viable options, which isDistance Education and Home
Education.
There is a group called theEducating Parents Homeschooling
and Unschooling group.
It is the place where you can goto, to really just ask
questions, get to talk to otherparents who've been in the same
(33:24):
place as you, who've made thechoices, who've made the
decision, who've made thetransition, and ask the
questions that you really wantanswered.
Ask the questions how do youmake it work when you're a
full-time working parent?
How do you make it work whenyou're a single parent?
How do you make ends meet?
How does it all work?
And you will find the communitythere.
And it doesn't matter if youmake the decision or not to home
(33:47):
educate or distance educate.
It gives you that space toexplore that option.
And I think once you realizethat there are thousands of
parents making the same choicesevery single day, and there are
parents that are in and out ofthe School Can't situation where
kids are going to school, thenthey're home educating or
distance educating, and thenback into the school
(34:08):
environment.
There are parents on variouspaths and various journeys.
But once you realize that you'renot alone in this situation and
you have ways of making it work,it can give you that sense of
ease in order to make a decisionyou never thought you had to
make.
Even if you didn't think yourlife was gonna go a certain way
or be a certain way, it givesyou hope that you can get back
(34:32):
to, to where you want to be inlife.
And yeah, create your community.
'cause without community,you're, you are really isolating
yourself.
Leisa Reichelt (34:40):
That is excellent advice.
Well, Marissa, thank you so muchfor spending all of this time
with us today.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you for sharing your storyand thank you for sharing so
much of what you've learned onyour journey as well.
I know people will find itreally reassuring and inspiring
and helpful.
Marissa Taylor (34:59):
No, thank you for, having the time for me to
come on.
Leisa Reichelt (35:02):
Well, whether you are just learning about Dr.
Ross Greene and CPS, or if youthought you were a bit of an old
hand, I suspect all of us willbe able to take new ideas away
from Marissa's experience.
For a start, I'll be going backto the assessment of skills and
unsolved problems worksheet andhaving a look at it for both my
son and myself.
We've put links to CPS resourcesand all the amazing researchers
(35:23):
that Marissa mentioned in theepisode notes, as well as links
to the School Can't Australiawebsite, which has more
resources, information about theFacebook support group, and a
link to donate to School Can'tAustralia.
Your tax deductible donationsassist us to raise community
awareness, partner withresearchers, produce resources
like webinars and this podcast,which all assist people who are
(35:46):
supporting children and youngpeople experiencing School
Can't.
We hope to share many more livedexperience stories.
So if you have a School Can'tstory that you would like to
share, please email us atschoolcantpodcast@gmail.com.
It is not a scary process toshare your story, and so many
people benefit from hearing it,so please do give it a thought.
(36:10):
If you are a parent or carer inAustralia and you are feeling
distressed, remember you canalways call the Parent Helpline
in your state.
A link with the number to callis in the show notes.
Thanks again for listening andwe will talk again soon.
Take care.
Hello and welcome to the School Can't
Experience Podcast.
I'm Leisa Reichelt, and thispodcast is brought to you by the
School Can't AustraliaCommunity.
Caring for a young person who isstruggling to attend school can
be a stressful and isolatingexperience, but you are not
alone.
Thousands of parents acrossAustralia and many more around
the world face similarchallenges and experiences every
(00:25):
day.
Today we continue MarissaTaylor's lived experience story,
which we started in our lastepisode.
In part one, Marissa shared thestory of how each of her
children experienced SchoolCan't in their own unique ways,
and how she felt forced intoHome Education
in today's episode, Marissatalks us through how she has
used low demand parentingskills, and particularly Dr.
(00:47):
Ross Green's collaborative andproactive solutions or CPS
method, and how that has beenreally transformative to her
approach to parenting.
This is not exactly a CPS tutorial though,
so before I hand over toMarissa, I thought it might be
helpful to give just a quicksummary of the key concepts of
CPS for anybody who's notfamiliar, and there is a lot
more information freelyavailable online if you wanna
(01:09):
dig into this further.
Essentially, CPS is a model forparenting without relying on
rewards, punishments, or powerstruggles.
The key idea is simple, butpowerful kids do well if they
can.
When they can't, it's becausethey're lacking the skills to
meet expectations, not becausethey're unwilling.
To figure out what's getting inthe way CPS uses a tool called
(01:30):
the Assessment of Skills andUnsolved Problems.
This helps us to identify thespecific skills a child is
struggling with and the exactsituations where those struggles
show up.
Once we've identified theproblem, CPS then offers three
options.
Plan A is when the adult imposesa solution.
It's often what we go to first.
It's a pretty traditionalparenting approach, but it does
(01:51):
tend to escalate things.
Plan C is when we temporarilydrop the expectation to reduce
conflict.
And Plan B, the sweet spot, thisis where we are working with the
child to understand theirconcern, share our concern, and
solve the problem together.
It's about collaboration, notcontrol, and for many families
(02:12):
it's been a real game changer.
Now let's get back to Marissa.
We're gonna pick up the episodenow as Marissa begins to talk us
through how the move to HomeEducation coincided with some
big new challenges.
Marissa Taylor (02:25):
Home is a safe space.
Trying to say to them, well, nowyou're gonna do schoolwork.
On top of that wasn'tnecessarily going to be the
right thing.
For my third oldest child, theywent into a complete, full
burnout.
So they completely shut down athome.
There was no way I was gonna getany kind of learning happening.
(02:49):
So I really had to rethink andreexamine everything.
And that will kind of segue usinto Dr.
Ross Green's work.
'Cause this is where it all cameto a crunch
Leisa Reichelt (03:04):
Beautiful.
Let's hear about that.
Marissa Taylor (03:07):
Where that played into my life was really
because I was stuck.
I was really stuck.
I knew I had to change things.
I knew I had to change myapproach.
I didn't know how, I didn't knowwhat that was.
I didn't understand how to makeit all work and what steps to
take.
(03:28):
When I learned about Dr.
Ross Green's work, I was like,cool.
I kind of get that, like it's, Iwas kind of on that space
anyway.
So if you understand Plan B,Plan B is basically a
collaboration between you andyour child.
I was kind of already on thatpage.
I just didn't really realizethat I was still a Plan A
parent.
(03:49):
So Plan A parent is thetraditional type of parenting,
where you're still thinkingabout rewards and punishments
and all that kind of stuff
Leisa Reichelt (03:57):
And you have a way to get things done, and your
job is to get the child to dowhat you want them to do.
Yeah?
Marissa Taylor (04:01):
Exactly.
A lot of, I'm the parent, youare the child.
You do, as I say, kind ofparenting.
And that's when I startedlearning about the process and
the reason why we don't wanna dothe Plan A parenting anymore or
traditional parenting, alsocollided with me learning about
PDA.
So when you learn you've got aPDA child or Pathological Demand
Avoidant child, you're startingto learn already.
(04:23):
Okay, traditional things aren'tworking.
We've been there, we've done allthe traditional things, and if
they were gonna work, they wouldbe working.
We wouldn't have School Can'tkids, we wouldn't have kids in
burnout.
So I already had this generalidea that those things don't
work anymore.
What is gonna work?
So once I started really takinga deep dive into it, and I do
(04:45):
mean a deep dive, I was Googlingit.
I was living and breathing everysingle YouTube I could think of
to learn about it.
I read the Explosive Child, andthen Illume Learning this
beautiful, beautiful company inQueensland, I think they are,
they're Queensland based,decided to run some online
(05:08):
workshops and I was like, yes, Iam on board.
That just kind of brings it alltogether when you can actually
talk to Dr.
Ross Green and really get theniggly questions you want
answered, that really does help.
You don't necessarily need it,but it does help the process.
But what I really had to focuson was the Plan C, which was
(05:30):
letting go of your expectations.
You know, letting go of thethings that you thought were
important in your life reallyaren't.
When it comes right down to thenitty gritty of it, your
children's mental health, theirlife, their wellbeing,
prioritizes everything because.
(05:51):
I didn't have kids to bring theminto the world, to watch them
fade away.
That's not why I became aparent.
It's not why I became a mom.
It's not what spurred me to havea family.
Even though you might have anideal of what your family's
gonna look like and thedirection you wanna head in
life, they are stillexpectations.
(06:13):
It doesn't mean that they won'thappen if you let go of the
expectations, but they're stillexpectations.
You're, asking your kids to liveup to a fantasy world that
doesn't exist yet.
So that was really a lot of thehard work was letting go of the
expectations.
Leisa Reichelt (06:30):
So Marissa, can you give us some concrete
examples of some of the thingsyou remember Plan C-ing as being
an important part of thatprocess,
Marissa Taylor (06:38):
Everything, everything.
Leisa Reichelt (06:41):
but like what gimme a couple of examples.
Marissa Taylor (06:44):
Letting go of the fact that the kids learn
from books., and I'm stillfighting this point, but,
devices are still such adivisive, topic in the
community, and
Leisa Reichelt (06:55):
Yeah.
Marissa Taylor (06:56):
I just had to learn to let go of those
expectations too.
I really had to see things froma different point of view and
that if devices is what got mychildren engaged, if it's what
regulated them, I'm not doingthem an injustice by allowing
devices into the home.
I'm not doing them injustice ifthey are getting a benefit from
(07:19):
devices.
It's a whole shift in the wayyou think and view the world.
And then you really have to,your mind really has to make
that shift.
Because if you're still stuckin, this is bad and this is
good.
If you're putting morality intothe, the equation, you are
(07:41):
missing the development stages.
You are missing the skillsstages
Leisa Reichelt (07:47):
And not just morality.
So like, if I think about twothings that I really struggle
with, one was toothbrushing.
Like having that fight twice aday every day.
It's not ideal.
I don't love it, but, you can'thave a good relationship with a
child when you're having thatsame fight twice a day.
(08:07):
And then the other one that I,for some reason found really,
really difficult was meals atthe table.
Like,
Marissa Taylor (08:14):
That.
That was one of ours.
Leisa Reichelt (08:15):
It kind of pains me a little bit that he still
eats in his room, because we'renot at the point where anyone's
got the energy to have that kindof conversation.
It's funny, it's big things andalso teeny tiny things.
And sometimes the tiny ones, canbe really hard to give away.
Marissa Taylor (08:33):
I had to really undo that myself too.
The way I explained it to afriend of mine who questioned me
on the same thing about thedinner table.
'cause for some reason we havethis, I don't know if anyone is
of the age to remember, Leave itto Beaver the 1950s family where
you're sitting around the dinnertable and everyone's happy and
(08:55):
telling you about your life andyour day.
And it's all airy fairy, likeit's all happy families.
That's kind of how we grew up,even though, you know, I was a
child of the eighties.
It's just kind of how we allgrew up.
Like everyone comes together atthe dinner table and that's how
it is.
And because I'd already gonethrough that process of letting
that go and letting go of thatexpectation.
(09:17):
And when a friend came to me andsaid, you know, how did you do
it?
I said, the first thing you haveto remember is that a table is
just a table.
It doesn't represent anything.
It's a piece of furniture.
It's a plank of wood on somesteel.
You can't have a relationshipwith a table.
You can't connect with a table.
(09:37):
So you have to really start toempathize and use your own
skills and empathy to reallysay, I don't need to connect
with my child through the dinnertable.
It's not a conduit.
It doesn't represent anything.
It's just this ideal that we'veheld onto for so long.
Leisa Reichelt (09:57):
And that battle destroys the connection.
It doesn't build the connection.
Marissa Taylor (10:01):
exactly, and if you are constantly in battle,
then you are on opposite sides.
You're not connecting, you arenot together.
You're not on the same page.
So you're really in battle withyour children rather than in
connection with them.
So you just have to let that go,let that fantasy go.
If your child is naturallywatching TV around dinner time
(10:23):
and they wanna have their foodwhile watching TV.
What's stopping you from eatingwith them, watching the same
thing and saying, Hey, I knownothing about this.
Can you tell me about it?
That is connection that isopening the lines for connection
to happen.
It might not be something thatinterests you and it might be
boring and not stimulating foryourself at all as an adult.
(10:47):
But you wanna get to know yourchild.
You wanna get to know what'sgoing on in their life, in their
world.
And if that's what it is,exciting them, then you wanna
know about it.
You don't have to like, youdon't have to make it your
world.
You just have to know about itand no enough about it that you
can say, oh, hey, the nextepisode's on, oh, did so and so
fix whatever's happening?
(11:08):
And you're getting theirattention.
You are connecting in with them.
And if you have those micromoments of connection and your
kids are with you, they're onthe same page as you, that's
more important than battlingover some fantasy ideal that we
somehow keep in our head
Leisa Reichelt (11:26):
Yeah, it's a really useful way of thinking
about picking your battles,right?
And reducing the demand andreducing the friction between
you and your kids.
Is it something that you'restill using on a daily basis
now?
Marissa Taylor (11:40):
every day.
And my kids Plan B me now.
They just don't
Leisa Reichelt (11:44):
Oh, really?
Marissa Taylor (11:45):
they just dunno what it means.
So, you know, if my child wantssomething to eat and I'm off
making it, and I'll say, Hey,can you come and grab this on
your way through to wherever youare going?
They might say, well, you can dothat, I'll just go to the table.
Sure I can do that.
There is no reason to make thata battle.
(12:07):
You don't have to go down thatroad.
You can just think about it andgo, you know what?
I can do that.
I can take myself over to you.
The goal is that they havesomething to eat and drink so
their bodies are nourished.
That is the most important partabout the whole issue.
Leisa Reichelt (12:24):
It's all such a massive mindset shift, isn't it?
From, how I assume you grew up,certainly how I grew up, of like
discipline and do what you'retold and don't be lazy and all
of these things.
And I think it's just, even ifyou've been doing this for a
while, it's still a dailystruggle, isn't it?
To remind yourself away fromthat old way of thinking and
(12:47):
keep yourself in the new way ofthinking and trust the new way
of thinking.
Marissa Taylor (12:52):
Yes, I am a very strong advocate in this area
because I've seen it work and Iknow it works I put myself into
a position where I was like,okay, if I'm gonna have
therapists on board, thetherapists are gonna be on board
with what we are doing.
'cause I know it works.
The therapists that we have inour lives now, they, they are,
purposely built team, I guessyou could say, where I said,
(13:14):
look, this is how we are as afamily.
This is the path that I'm on.
I really need you to be on boardwith this.
If it's something that you havea problem with, then we're
probably not gonna get on verywell.
So I wanted to set it up fromthe outset before we got, seven,
eight sessions into it andrealized, okay, you're the wrong
supports for us.
So I really put it up front andI am so thankful that I did,
(13:36):
because I have built such areally wonderful care team that
supports the way we do it.
Not only that, I, I really putfaith in the therapist that they
were gonna, trust me and myprocess and trust my children
because we do all our therapyvia telehealth.
I have children that will notshow their face on screen.
(13:58):
I've got children who won't talkto therapists.
So a lot of the time they'reseeing me, they're not seeing my
kids.
So I really had to ask for themto trust me and trust the
process.
And even when they startedhaving doubts, I'm like, look,
all I can say to you is pleasetrust the process because I've
seen it work.
(14:18):
I know it works, and I know Ijust need you to have faith.
And I'm so thankful that theywere on board because they're
starting to see the benefits.
Even if they just get a glimpseof a child as they walk through
where they never would before,whether the child pops their
face on the screen and saysHello and waves, and they
(14:39):
disappear, they're now seeingthe benefits of the Plan C, you
know, letting, letting go of theexpectation.
Following through on my instinctas a parent.
Its
Leisa Reichelt (14:53):
such a reversal of the, traditional power
structure, isn't it, where it'slike, Ooh, they're the experts.
I have to sit here and listen tothem and do what they say.
And it feels like from atherapeutic point of view, from
educational point of view,you've really sort of flipped
the script on that and you aresetting the agenda and
Marissa Taylor (15:09):
Absolutely.
And it, it's a lot like youreally have to find the right
people who you can say, look, Iknow myself, I know my kids.
I know the path that we're onand this is the way I wanna move
forward.
Can you move forward with me?
And it's not easy to, asksomeone in that kind of a
position to do that because,there are some therapists who
(15:30):
won't, there are some therapiststhat want what they find,
whatever their agenda is,
Leisa Reichelt (15:35):
Mm-hmm.
Marissa Taylor (15:36):
to be the only thing that matters.
And I really had to come from aplace of, look, I've got kids
and I'm not gonna force them.
So you have to really work withus the way we work, and then
have the patience to see.
But before we move on the othercrucial part to Dr.
Ross's model, which I think alot of parents forget exists, is
(15:59):
the Assessment of Skills andUnsolved Problems.
That is huge.
Because as you're Plan C-ing, asyou're letting go of those
expectations, which I alwaysexplain to parents, especially
when you've got PDA kids, thisis your low demand parenting,
this is where you're letting goof those expectations, and
really just sort of letting,letting your child have some
autonomy and taking over alittle bit.
(16:19):
A lot of parents will go, okay,I've done this, but what next?
This is where Dr.
Ross Green's model really startsto come to life because it's
giving you that next step.
It's giving you that checklistof skills that we all need as
humans to be well in life.
You know, we can't makedecisions if we don't have our
skills in hindsight, forethoughtand reflection, like all of
(16:43):
that.
They're their skills.
These are skills we need inlife.
We can't move forward if wecan't communicate with people
regardless of what kind ofcommunication that is.
We all have to have a form ofcommunication with other human
beings so our needs can be met.
So, that is a huge piece to thepuzzle that you really have to
(17:03):
bring into the model, and youcan't forget about it because
that's what helps you do all theinvestigative work that you need
to do as the parent, as yourPlan C-ing.
So you're not stuck, you're notdoing nothing at all.
You are going, okay, my kid hasissues in transitioning.
Who do I see about that?
What help do I get for that?
What does that even mean?
(17:25):
So, you know, whether you'rereaching out to a psychologist
or an occupational therapist, ora speech therapist or you know,
reaching out to a community.
You're trying to figure out whatthat means for your child and
how you can help your childthrough transitions.
That's a huge part of the modelthat you can't forget and we're
always constantly working on ortowards something, and resolving
(17:47):
that unsolved problem that'sgetting in the way of your child
doing well.
Leisa Reichelt (17:51):
Marissa, do you think people forget it or do you
think they just get overwhelmedby it?
You know, speaking on behalf ofa friend...
like I've downloaded the thingand looked at it and just gone,
oh my God.
even the examples you gave arevery granular and it's like, I'm
gonna have the biggest, longestlist, how is this gonna make
life easier for me?
(18:11):
Just having more things that Iknow we have to do.
Marissa Taylor (18:14):
we've been at this for about four to five
years now.
One of my children still ticksall boxes.
So it's not like we've resolvedlike a lot of things.
We have resolved some things anda lot of that comes with time
and development.
If we look at the brain scienceof child development, the brain
(18:34):
itself does not stop developingtill the mid to late twenties.
So if you've got a 10-year-oldchild, they're still looking at
15 plus years of development oftheir brain.
You're not going to resolvethings overnight.
You're just not going to,that's, so, that's the realistic
part of growing up anddeveloping.
You are not going to resolveeverything overnight.
(18:56):
So if you come into thisthinking, it's all gonna happen
and, you know, in two monthstime, everything's gonna be
great and on its way.
No, it's an unrealisticexpectation from the simple fact
from child development.
Our brains don't work that way.
And that's why these things dotake time.
A lot of parents will go intothe questioning side of it, so
the Plan B, trying to figure outfrom the child what's going on
(19:19):
for the child.
But if the child doesn't havethe words or the articulation to
say, this is the problem, howcan they explain to you what's
going on for them.
You're going to get a lot of, Idon't knows, I'm not sure, or
they're just gonna shut down onyou because even they can't
articulate.
I'm a 47-year-old woman,sometimes I can't articulate
(19:41):
what's going on for myself in myown experience.
And my brain is supposedly fullygrown and developed now.
I'm still having to go through,okay, what skills am I missing?
Where have I not developed theright skills?
Or where do I need moredevelopment for myself in order
to do well as a person and as aparent?
Leisa Reichelt (20:01):
Have you done your own lagging skills audit on
yourself?
Marissa Taylor (20:04):
Exactly.
Plan B yourself.
You can Plan B your wholefamily.
Leisa Reichelt (20:07):
I love that.
Marissa Taylor (20:07):
It's a free little list that you can do it
for everybody.
And that's the brilliant thingabout Dr.
Ross Green's model too.
It's not just about parenting.
It is about being a human andmoving through this world as a
human being and the skills thatyou need to move forward in
life.
So this relates to yourrelationship with your partner
or spouse, It's how you getalong with your colleagues, your
bosses, your employees.
(20:29):
It's how you relate to otherhuman beings.
If you have a breakdown incommunication, communication is
a two-way street.
So if you're breaking down withcommunication, then you have to
figure out, okay, where am Igoing wrong and how can I meet
the other person on the otherside?
You have to be working incollaboration with whomever
you're speaking to.
(20:51):
It's the same thing, empathy's atwo way street.
We are not just asking you toreceive empathy from people.
You have to then understand howcan I see life through their
eyes and understand what issuesthey're facing?
It's a two-way street.
That's why collaboration is soimportant because a lot of the
skills that we want our kids toexhibit are not one way street
(21:13):
skills.
They're two way street skills.
We have to be able to model themin order for our kids to learn
what that looks and feels likein order for them to demonstrate
it.
And if we are not doing that'cause we don't have the skills
or we don't know, then yeah,you're gonna struggle.
I had to do my own learning inemotional intelligence.
Which directly leads toemotional regulation.
(21:33):
And I started learning thisaround 41, 42 ish.
it kind of blew my mind.
I thought we just fumble throughlife and we all figure out how
to handle our own emotions fromour experiences.
But no, turns out that's not thecase.
There's actually a, a reallygood, skillset that we have to
learn in order to control ouremotions, in order to deal with
(21:57):
our emotions.
And 99% of us did not grow upunderstanding that at all.
And then when I started learningabout emotional intelligence, I
was just like, oh my gosh, noone told me about this.
No one pulled me aside and said,okay, Marissa, you need these
skills.
Let's build them up for you.
So, I'm going through my owntherapy and building that up and
doing all the work myself now,as an older woman and I'm going,
(22:20):
this would've been reallyhelpful when I was a teenager,
or, this would've been reallyhelpful when I was a kid.
And now I have to learn it so Ican then teach my kids.
And a lot of that is throughco-regulation.
Leisa Reichelt (22:30):
Yeah,
Marissa Taylor (22:31):
You learn it through co-regulation and being
regulated from the outside.
Leisa Reichelt (22:36):
That's such a big part of the job, isn't it?
Assisting with thatco-regulation, and I think
that's a really good point thatyou make, that you need to have
your own set of skills in orderto be able to provide that to
the kids.
Everyone just assumes that wecome with it ready built, right?
Marissa Taylor (22:51):
Yeah.
And that's, it's another goodpoint that it's really
confronting as an adult becauseYou are the one that's supposed
to know everything, and you arethe one that's supposed to have
all the answers, and have it allfigured out.
And then when you get to a pointwhere you're like, well, I
don't, I don't have all theanswers, I don't have it all
figured out, and you really haveto start moving forward from
(23:12):
there.
You do get stuck feeling theweight of all that, all the
pressure that you get,particularly where there's a lot
of parent blaming and parentshaming.
You do start to feel that and,and you start to think, well,
maybe it is me.
You really have to learn how tonumb all the noise out and bring
it back to yourself and bring itback to your family and say,
(23:34):
Nope.
What do I need?
What do my children need, andhow do I move forward from here?
And that's hard.
It's, it's not an easy process.
It, it does take time,especially when you've got
friends and family who also donot have faith that you can do
these certain things.
You really have to learn how toshut them out.
And say, you know what?
I know myself, I know mychildren and I know what we
(23:57):
need.
And even if that is just basicmental health, like we need to
make sure that we're in a goodmental health space and we are
not, constantly in dysregulationand constantly in a spiral of
anxiety and depression.
Even if that is just your mainfocus, that is still one step
forward.
Leisa Reichelt (24:16):
It's very true, Marissa, but I wonder whether
you have had moments whereyou've stared at the ceiling in
the middle of the night going,am I doing the right thing?
Am I doing the right thing?
Marissa Taylor (24:27):
I still do, I still do.
Leisa Reichelt (24:29):
I find that so reassuring to hear you say that.
Marissa Taylor (24:32):
I still do it.
Like I said, we are soconditioned by society and the
world and it's really hard toflip it on its head and say, you
know what, no, that is not theway it's supposed to be.
You really have to trust thescience and trust the knowledge
that we are getting through.
(24:52):
And I think this is somethingthat's really, really difficult
because we are up againstgovernments and systems that are
still very much on thebehaviorist point of view.
And so it's really hard to comeback on that and say, well, hey,
you're wrong.
And this is how it is.
It's really hard when you areinside those systems that are
saying, no, this is the wayforward.
(25:14):
And you are coming at it from acompletely different approach.
But this is where a lot of the,like for example, Dr.
Ross Green, Dr.
Dan Siegel, Dr.
Steven Porges, who does a lot ofthe polyvagal theory, Dr.
Mona Delahook, who does theinterpretation of neuroscience
and puts it into parentaleducation.
(25:34):
Dr.
Vanessa Lapointe, who works withour own Maggie Dent.
There are alternatives.
We have the research overdecades, not just a decade, but
over 75 years of research intohuman behavior, child
development, brain development,emotional development.
There is a lot of science toback this up.
(25:56):
And when you put your faith andtrust in that and you go, okay,
let's give it a go, it works.
But it does take a lot of usletting go of those expectations
and demands and just letting theprocess take over.
And surprisingly, when you dothat you start to reflect upon
(26:19):
yourself and say why didn't Ihave this as a child?
Or why couldn't this havehappened in my early twenties
when I was fumbling throughlife?
Why couldn't someone just say,Hey, you know, this is the way
forward and you can have this,it would've made life so much
better.
But unfortunately it's us now asparents with kids that are
struggling and we're starting tolearn it from scratch now.
(26:42):
But once you put the work in,you get to the other side of it.
And I mean, my life now is notpicture perfect, but we are not
in crisis anymore.
Leisa Reichelt (26:53):
Yeah, I was gonna ask that you've been doing
this like four, five years now.
How is the family doing?
Marissa Taylor (26:59):
Better.
Like I said, it's not pictureperfect.
Two of my children are nowadults who are still trying to
find their feet in life, butthey are moving forward in their
own way, in their own time,getting the support that they
need for their goals.
It's not about school anymore.
It's not about me or what I hopefor them, it is about their life
(27:21):
and how they wanna lead theirlife.
It's not that you stop being aparent, you are always a parent,
but you take a little bit of abackseat you start to become the
supporter and the champion foryour child.
With my younger two kids.
I put them straight through tohome education.
I didn't put them into themainstream system because I'd
already had experience with notbeing supported.
(27:43):
They are two kids that have muchhigher needs.
They are, nine and seven now,and they are starting to become
aware, that they schooldifferently.
They're different to other kids.
This is one of the brilliantthings about them being exposed
to certain things on YouTube,which a lot of people don't
like, they're starting tounderstand like, you know, kids,
(28:03):
grow up and they get detentionsand kids grow up and get into
trouble and kids get intotrouble from doing homework.
You can still have LearningCan't issues, especially when
you have neurodivergent childrenand PDA kids.
But inside Home Education, youhave the flexibility of going,
you know what, if this can't bedone right now, that's okay.
(28:24):
We don't have any deadlines andwe don't have any pressure to,
to meet anything or meet anyexpectations except for our own.
And if we're already in a placewhere we can let go of those
expectations, it's okay.
My kids are still learning andthey're thriving.
And I think that's the mostimportant part
Leisa Reichelt (28:42):
Absolutely.
Marissa Taylor (28:43):
So I'm still reflecting on my life and
figuring things out for myself.
So I don't feel like I've got itall together.
But all I can say to you is it'sworking and we're in a much
better place.
I've got kids that want to livenow.
You know that it's the oppositeof where we were.
(29:03):
I've got kids that are thriving.
We are getting a lot of help andsupport now, and life is just,
it's working.
It's not perfect.
It's not exactly where wethought we would be.
but it's working I can't ask forbetter than that, honestly.
Leisa Reichelt (29:20):
Let's move on to our final three questions.
Marissa Taylor (29:22):
Okay.
Leisa Reichelt (29:22):
If you could go back in time and tell yourself
something, when would you go toand what would you say?
Marissa Taylor (29:28):
For myself personally, I'd go back to
myself as a little child,because when you start doing
this work of reframingeverything, you realize that it
starts way back when you were alittle kid and you were first
learning things in life.
If I could say anything tomyself, I would probably go back
to about 4 or 5-year-old littleme and just tell myself that
(29:51):
you're gonna be okay.
'Cause I think especially whenyou're an undiagnosed person
moving through the world, youreally take on board the
negativity that people say aboutyou.
You really start to believe,well, maybe I am just lazy, or
maybe I am just a helpless,hopeless human being.
(30:12):
You really start to onboard allof that negativity from such a
young age.
So if I could, I would just sayto myself, no, you've got this.
You'll get there and you'll knowhow to do it and you'll do it
well.
And just give myself thatconfidence from such a young age
to hopefully change thatnegative experience that we
(30:33):
generally have.
And it all starts fromchildhood.
Leisa Reichelt (30:36):
Yeah.
That's beautiful.
For everyone who's listening,who's on whatever part of the
School Can't journey thatthey're on right now, what would
you like to say to them?
What would you like them toknow?
Marissa Taylor (30:46):
Understand regulation.
In our community, we are highlystressed.
it's not just our kids that aregoing through it.
We are going through it too.
And we can't do our bestthinking, we can't do our best
decision making when we areemotionally hijacked ourselves
and living from our own fightflight response.
(31:08):
If I reflect back on my ownjourney, it wasn't until I made
the decisions to get us to aplace of regulation where we
could just have that moment tobreathe, get supports in place,
and really start to figurethings out, that's when the path
became much clearer for us.
Before then, I was just fumblingmy way through trying to figure
out what what we needed.
(31:29):
But once you have that moment oftime and space where you can
really calm your nervous system,start thinking rationally about
things.
Really start planning out how ismy life gonna look realistically
if I go down this path, or if Ido this?
You can start to logically putthings in place and explore all
your options rather than justputting up a wall going, no,
(31:50):
this is too hard and I can't doit.
Find your space of regulation,find what's gonna ground you as
a human being, so you can makethe decisions you need to make
for yourself and for yourfamily.
Leisa Reichelt (32:02):
That's excellent advice.
Not always easy to do, but,worth the effort.
Marissa Taylor (32:08):
definitely
Leisa Reichelt (32:08):
And then finally, and I feel like I might
know the answer to this one,what is the resource that you
think everybody who has SchoolCan't young people should know
about?
Marissa Taylor (32:18):
There's kind of two really.
So, well, three, the obvious oneis the School Can't, website and
parental peer support group.
The second one is Dr.
Ross Green's Collaborative andProactive Solutions model.
I do believe this is really theway forward for every human
being.
Because I've lived it, I'veexperienced it, I've seen the
(32:40):
rewards from it the fact that itdoes work.
So, and our group values is thatkids do well if they can.
And that is so true and it'sjust the same, parents do well
if they can.
Educators do well if they can.
Everyone does well if they can.
And the third one is to reallyexplore your options.
(33:02):
School is not the only wayforward.
We do have two other options inAustralia, which are legal,
viable options, which isDistance Education and Home
Education.
There is a group called theEducating Parents Homeschooling
and Unschooling group.
It is the place where you can goto, to really just ask
questions, get to talk to otherparents who've been in the same
(33:24):
place as you, who've made thechoices, who've made the
decision, who've made thetransition, and ask the
questions that you really wantanswered.
Ask the questions how do youmake it work when you're a
full-time working parent?
How do you make it work whenyou're a single parent?
How do you make ends meet?
How does it all work?
And you will find the communitythere.
And it doesn't matter if youmake the decision or not to home
(33:47):
educate or distance educate.
It gives you that space toexplore that option.
And I think once you realizethat there are thousands of
parents making the same choicesevery single day, and there are
parents that are in and out ofthe School Can't situation where
kids are going to school, thenthey're home educating or
distance educating, and thenback into the school
(34:08):
environment.
There are parents on variouspaths and various journeys.
But once you realize that you'renot alone in this situation and
you have ways of making it work,it can give you that sense of
ease in order to make a decisionyou never thought you had to
make.
Even if you didn't think yourlife was gonna go a certain way
or be a certain way, it givesyou hope that you can get back
(34:32):
to, to where you want to be inlife.
And yeah, create your community.
'cause without community,you're, you are really isolating
yourself.
Leisa Reichelt (34:40):
That is excellent advice.
Well, Marissa, thank you so muchfor spending all of this time
with us today.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you for sharing your storyand thank you for sharing so
much of what you've learned onyour journey as well.
I know people will find itreally reassuring and inspiring
and helpful.
Marissa Taylor (34:59):
No, thank you for, having the time for me to
come on.
Leisa Reichelt (35:02):
Well, whether you are just learning about Dr.
Ross Greene and CPS, or if youthought you were a bit of an old
hand, I suspect all of us willbe able to take new ideas away
from Marissa's experience.
For a start, I'll be going backto the assessment of skills and
unsolved problems worksheet andhaving a look at it for both my
son and myself.
We've put links to CPS resourcesand all the amazing researchers
(35:23):
that Marissa mentioned in theepisode notes, as well as links
to the School Can't Australiawebsite, which has more
resources, information about theFacebook support group, and a
link to donate to School Can'tAustralia.
Your tax deductible donationsassist us to raise community
awareness, partner withresearchers, produce resources
like webinars and this podcast,which all assist people who are
(35:46):
supporting children and youngpeople experiencing School
Can't.
We hope to share many more livedexperience stories.
So if you have a School Can'tstory that you would like to
share, please email us atschoolcantpodcast@gmail.com.
It is not a scary process toshare your story, and so many
people benefit from hearing it,so please do give it a thought.
(36:10):
If you are a parent or carer inAustralia and you are feeling
distressed, remember you canalways call the Parent Helpline
in your state.
A link with the number to callis in the show notes.
Thanks again for listening andwe will talk again soon.
Take care.
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