May 12, 2025 • 37 mins
In this episode of the 'School Can't Experience Podcast,' host Leisa Reichelt speaks with Jackie Hall, founder of the Parental Stress Center.
Jackie shares her journey to understanding the four ‘stressful thinking lenses’ that can make difficult parenting situations much more stressful, and how we can shift our mindset to alleviate distress. Jackie emphasizes the importance of self-awareness and challenges traditional beliefs about parenting and child behavior.
Jackie also offers practical advice on finding moments of joy and reframing negative experiences to boost our emotional resilience.
Recommended Resources
- Parental Stress Centre - https://www.parentalstresscentre.com/
- Beneath Behaviour Podcast - https://www.parentalstresscentre.com/beneath-behaviour-podcasts-with-jackie-hall/
- School Can’t Australia Facebook Community - https://www.facebook.com/groups/schoolphobiaschoolrefusalaustralia
- Make a donation to School Can’t Australia - https://www.schoolcantaustralia.com.au/get-involved
If you are a parent of carer in Australia and experiencing distress, please call Lifeline on 13 11 14 or contact the Parent Help Line. - https://kidshelpline.com.au/parents/issues/how-parentline-can-help-you
You can contact us to volunteer to share your School Can't story or some feedback via email on schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com
Disclaimer
The content of this podcast is based on personal lived experiences and is shared for informational and storytelling purposes only. It should not be treated as medical, psychological, or professional advice under any circumstances. If you have concerns about your health or well-being, please seek guidance from a doctor, therapist, or other qualified professional.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leisa Reichelt (00:05):
Hello and welcome to the School Can't
Experience Podcast.
I'm Leisa Reichelt, and thispodcast is brought to you by the
School Can't Australiacommunity.
Caring for a young person who isstruggling to attend school can
be a stressful and isolatingexperience, but you are not
alone.
Thousands of parents acrossAustralia and many more around
the world face similarchallenges and experiences every
(00:26):
day.
Today we're talking with JackieHall, who is the founder of the
Parental Stress Center, aboutways she teaches parents to
shift how they think, feel, andbehave in order to reduce stress
and increase the peace in ourlives.
Well, let's get started then.
And I would love to start justby you giving us a little
introduction to Jackie.
Like tell us a little bit aboutyour background and how you've
(00:47):
come to be doing what you'redoing now.
Jackie Hall (00:49):
Okay.
So my business, the ParentalStress Center started 17 years
ago, when my son was about twoand a half, and my other son was
about six months old.
And I was going through my ownparental stress difficulties and
had what I call my breakdown toget my breakthrough.
I'd done heaps of personaldevelopment stuff before, but
(01:10):
never thought to apply it toparenting'cause I was too busy
trying to get it right andhating myself for getting it
wrong.
And so after I had my minibreakdown, I kind of applied
everything I'd been learning andstarted to, write as if I was
teaching it as I was learning itand applying it myself.
Now I've written 15 onlineprograms, five books, supporting
general parents.
in between all of that time Ialso got, qualified as a
(01:33):
professional counselor.
I did residential youth carework.
I've worked in drug and alcoholretreats, and so bring family
dynamics, sensitive and traumainformed approaches can look at
it from that perspective ofanxiety, depression, and
basically that has always fueledme to help people to never have
(01:54):
to feel the way that I did.
in the last four years.
in addition to helping generalparents, we've also been helping
parents of autistic children,understand what's going on for
their child and, and have aneuro affirming approach.
But generally at the heart ofeverything is a sense of
self-awareness from the parentto kind of look at, what must I
(02:15):
be thinking to feel the way thatI am., Whenever we're trying to
change behaviour, we have tolook at, the parents and their
response and the child and theirresponse.
And we have to look at themindependently and look at them
together.
So that's in essence where wecome from when we're helping
parents at the Parental StressCenter.
Leisa Reichelt (02:34):
You just said helping parents think about what
must I be thinking to feel theway I'm feeling?
Did I get that right?
Jackie Hall (02:41):
Yes, that's exactly right.
to understand what must I bethinking, to be feeling the way
that I am or to be behaving theway that I am.
Leisa Reichelt (02:48):
Yeah.
I would love for you to unpackthat.
'cause I think that's, often notthe first place that we go to
when we're trying to like makeourselves feel better or work
out how to deal with situations.
But I think it's at the heart ofit, isn't it?
Jackie Hall (03:01):
Absolutely, because often when we have an external
problem or something that'shappening in our life that we
don't like, we think that wehave to change what's happening
out there before we can feelbetter within here.
And sometimes you can do thatand sometimes you can't, but you
can always change what's goingon in here and by being
(03:22):
self-aware of what I'm thinking,what I'm feeling, and how I'm
behaving and altering that it'sgonna change how you're
perceiving that event.
How you're feeling about thatevent and how you approach that
event.
Because when we're thinkingthrough what we call our
stressful thinking lenses, wherewe're thinking in this right
(03:43):
versus this wrong path, thatthere's a right way to do things
and a wrong way for things tohappen.
And if things are going wrong,then my life's going off track
we'll have all these ideas ofwhat life is supposed to look
like or what experiences aresupposed to look like.
And we get attached to theseideas.
And if they're not going toplan, I then go into a missing
out lens.
Or I feel like there's some sortof lack void or some sort of
(04:04):
loss in an experience I'msupposed to have.
We go into blame where we thinkI should be behaving differently
or someone else should bebehaving differently.
And then all three of thoselenses, right versus wrong,
missing out, and could have,should have all spiraled down
into the core belief.
Where we're always asking thequestion, what does this mean
and what does this mean aboutme?
(04:25):
So I'm always personalisingwhat's going on in that external
environment.
And so the more we think throughthese lenses, the more we find
evidence of those lenses.
And we just keep playing thisnarrative over and over again.
how we think is gonna influencehow we feel and how we feel is
gonna influence how we behave.
And they all interact together.
So when we're challenged by asituation with our child, if
(04:50):
we're in the world of us rollingaround in those lenses.
Then it's difficult for us tojump outta the world of us and
into the world of the child toask what must they be thinking,
to be feeling the way that theyare to be behaving the way that
they are.
So we have to get clear on ournarrative and change that
narrative to come to a place ofneutrality where we can go,
(05:12):
okay, the reality is.
This is what I'm experiencing,so what can I do about it and
why is it actually happening?
And look at it with curiosityinstead of personalising it and
going into resistance to what'shappening.
There's one thing that I oftensay is that all emotional stress
is a conflict between belief andreality.
(05:35):
So the reality is my child's notable to go to school right now.
The belief is they shouldn't befeeling this way.
I should be able to get them togo to school.
It's wrong if they don't go toschool, I'm gonna get in trouble
if they don't go to school,they're gonna be missing out on
all the things that they needfor their quality education.
And there's this, this wholenarrative is just gonna find
(05:57):
more and more evidence and allyour attention's over here stuck
in a story that's in conflictwith reality.
So if we can change how we arethinking about it and change how
we're feeling about it andchange how we respond to it,
then it's gonna change theconversations that you have with
your child.
It's gonna change yourunderstanding of what's
happening for your child inorder to get to the heart of
(06:20):
what's going on for your child,to be able to put the right
strategies in place, if thatmakes sense.
Leisa Reichelt (06:26):
It makes sense.
It sounds great in theory.
Jackie Hall (06:31):
I always make it sound so easy, right?
Leisa Reichelt (06:33):
Yeah, because I think also in practice, if I go
back to what were some of themost difficult times?
I had a full-time job.
My husband was working.
there was a lot going on inlife.
There was mortgages to pay, youknow, the financial pressure,
there was busyness and my childnot going to school.
(06:55):
Yes, I felt bad because whatkind of a parent am I that I
can't even get my kid to go toschool?
What am I doing wrong?
How do I do it better?
You know, that was where myheadset was at, but I'm also
like, I've got a meeting that Ineed to get to.
I'm letting people downeverywhere at the moment and
you're just caught in thisabsolute, maelstrom of stress
(07:17):
really, and thinking of this hasnot got anything to do with how
I'm thinking about things.
This is about logistics.
This is about finance.
This is about like day-to-daylife stuff.
You must meet a lot of parentswho are living this experience,
Jackie Hall (07:31):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (07:32):
How do we make the journey from the panic and
chaos of day-to-day sort oflogistical life and you know,
dreading nighttime and dreadingmorning and everything right, to
being able to step back andthink about it differently.
Jackie Hall (07:47):
All of that is often got this undertone of it
shouldn't be happening.
It's supposed to be different.
I'm supposed to be experiencinglife differently and you may
want to experience lifedifferently, and that's why
we're trying to find solutions,right?
But the reality is you're notthere right now.
All it is, is you'reexperiencing all of these events
(08:07):
with a lot of resistance andthinking that I'm supposed to be
somewhere else than where I amon my life journey.
Sometimes we've gotta look atthat bigger picture where the
reality of life is not thisstraight line.
And that's often what we'reindoctrinated to believe, is
that we're supposed to beticking all these boxes, getting
life right, and life's supposedto be easy.
(08:27):
But the reality, and this isthat conflict between belief and
reality, is that sometimes it'snot easy.
Sometimes we don't have theanswers.
Sometimes we're in the unknownof not knowing what the answer
is and not knowing where theanswer's gonna come.
That's the reality.
It's not the event that triggersthe stress or the several events
that you just mentioned.
(08:49):
It's how I perceive those eventsand what I perceive it to mean
about me.
So I'm personalising it becausea lot of the time the narrative
is I should be able to beeverything to everyone at the
same time, and that again, is inconflict with reality because
you can only do the best thatyou can.
If you've got meetings you'vegot to go to, this is not you
(09:10):
actively letting other peopledown.
If you could get to thosemeetings, you would get to those
meetings, but the reality is youhave to prioritise certain
things and your child in thatmoment had to be prioritised.
The hardest thing, is tosurrender with all the balls
you've got up in the air andpick up one at a time and
recognise that I cannot hold allof these balls in the air right
(09:33):
now, so something has to dropand maybe there is a solution,
but right now, in this moment, Idon't have that solution.
So all I can do is the best Ican with the information that I
have.
And then when I've got throughthat moment, it's about
reflecting on it and go, okay.
What was going on in thatmoment?
What was happening for my childto not be able to go to school?
(09:56):
Could I have done it anydifferently?
And not from the perspective ofblame or shaming yourself for
making the decisions that youmade, but just looking at it and
learning from it.
Because as we're going throughthese highs and lows, we're all
living, learning, sharing,growing, and evolving.
And that's the whole purpose oflife.
We're taught that we should beattached to this right path.
(10:19):
You can want a certain pathway.
You can pursue a certainpathway, and you can see that
you are not on that pathway andtry to understand it and correct
it.
None of your goals andexpectations are the problem.
The problem is that we arepersonalising it when you are
not there yet.
(10:40):
You think that life is goingwrong because you're
experiencing challenges, andthat is, it's difficult to
experience in them.
So I don't in any way wannatrivialize all of those balls
that parents have in the airbecause it is hard.
But hard doesn't mean wrong,hard doesn't mean there's
something wrong with you.
That's the important distinctionto make, that's gonna alleviate
(11:04):
your stress.
It may not mean that you are allpeace and mungbeans about those
situations, but if you're notpersonalising it, the level of
ability that you will have to besolution focused or to be
curious about what's going onwill be so much better and so
much stronger because you're notrolling around in this lens of
this means something about me.
(11:25):
This means something about mylife.
So you keep looking at what'sgoing wrong.
You're not looking at what'sgoing right.
If you're looking at what you'remissing out on, you're not
looking for the opportunities.
So this is why we've gotta lookat that mindset and come back
into alignment with the reality.
This is what I'm facing, solet's get curious about it, try
to understand it, and try to dothe best that I can with the
(11:47):
knowledge that I have put thingsin place to resolve this issue
as best I can.
But in the meantime, I have tosurrender.
I don't know all of the answers,and maybe I just haven't found
that possibility yet, Does thatkind of help a little bit?
Leisa Reichelt (12:04):
It does and it doesn't, right?
Because I think.
When you're in the thick of it,especially in the early stages
of the journey, I think thesituation that you find yourself
in, the trajectory that you'reon, can seem intractable, right?
We have all of these commitmentsthat mean we can't entertain
other options.
And I am looking for what?
What can I do?
What's the technique that I canuse that's gonna fix this?
(12:27):
I think that's often thementality that we have, isn't
it?
When we first run into theseschool attendance challenges.
Jackie Hall (12:32):
Yeah.
And I think, something reallyinteresting is that because we
often have a picture of how wethink it's supposed to be.
Often even the opportunitieswe're looking for is still
coming from that attachedpicture, that picture, that
attachment I have to thatpicture.
So, an example is that a friendof mine is trying to pursue
(12:57):
something in his career andeverything is getting in his way
that it's not happening for him.
I was like, if this is actuallygetting you what you want, but
you have to go in a completelydifferent direction to get it.
But often, I've got all theseother commitments that I can't
(13:20):
change, and I would challengeyou to actually look at can you
change those other commitments?
Because sometimes we get soattached to that, I can't change
those commitments.
That we're not seeingpossibilities for you to maybe
be able to change some of thosecommitments and go in a
completely different directionthat you hadn't even thought of
(13:42):
because you are attached to,trying to make it work in this
scenario.
There's nothing wrong with that.
it's not about right or wrong,it's about looking at it from
different angles and going, am Iattached to a certain outcome of
how it should be?
And is there another possibilitythat maybe that's not the
outcome we need to pursue?
And so an example in referenceto school is often parents with
(14:04):
15 or 16-year-old kids, getattached to the idea of them
finishing school.
But at this age, there are somany other options that may help
them pursue something that keepsthem learning, in more of a
practical way.
But they haven't thought aboutthat avenue because they think
the only option is to finishschool.
the same can be said sometimesand not all times'cause
(14:26):
everybody's situation'sdifferent.
Sometimes that can be the samewith the homeschooling route
we're saying I couldn't possiblyhomeschool.
Because I couldn't afford it.
But that statement in itself canstop you from being able to
explore whether you actuallycould afford it or there's some
other opportunity to be able toafford it.
(14:46):
And sometimes that means lettinggo of other lifestyle things
that we're also attached to.
So it's complex, you know, andthat's why it's about being
self-aware of what we'reattached to and how we're seeing
that situation if I wave mymagic wand, what would I want
here?
am I exploring all of theoptions to get there?
Leisa Reichelt (15:07):
Yeah, I had all these commitments that I
couldn't let go of, but I,remember my life as it was three
or four years ago.
And look at it today is sodifferent.
You know, I had a big job.
I had a career.
I definitely thought my two boyswere gonna go through and get
their HSC and go on and do, youknow, probably uni, maybe
something else.
You know, we lived in acompletely different place.
(15:29):
Like we've had to, chosen tomake so many different changes
to how we live and how we thinkabout what a successful outcome
for our children is over thecourse of those years.
But I think if you'd have toldme that three or four years ago,
I wouldn't have believed it andwould've been horrified.
Jackie Hall (15:50):
you know, what you've highlighted there is
that, you had to drop some ofyour expectations.
You had to make those changesand pivot.
Sometimes when we've created anideal of our life, in terms of
career and what we're doing on aday-to-day basis, we had no idea
what parenting was gonna belike, and no idea of these
(16:10):
challenges.
We get attached to the identitythat's associated with that
lifestyle or that career or thatperson that I am in this circle.
it's easier to say I can't getout of that circle and I have no
options than it is to actuallygo, maybe there's another way
that I can feel as good as I doin this circle by pivoting and
(16:34):
changing certain things in mylife.
And I don't know what that isfor every single individual
unless we had a conversationabout your specific
circumstances, but it's justanother example of how the brain
can lock us in to a fixed way ofviewing things that prevent us
from seeing other opportunities.
Leisa Reichelt (16:56):
no, that's very true.
And I have to say, with regret,I look back now and I see the
level of distress that my sonhad to get to before I was able
to really contemplate thosesignificant changes
Jackie Hall (17:10):
But let's, unpack that a little bit because a lot
of parents do that where theyreflect back on something and
they go, I should have done itdifferently, or I should have
done it earlier.
The reality is, firstly, youcouldn't have done it
differently because you wereoperating with the information
that you had in that moment, andyou were making decisions based
(17:30):
on those priority beliefs inthat moment, not knowing what
the outcome would be, thinkingthat you were doing the best by
him and the family and thesituation at hand.
So firstly, you couldn't havemade a different decision.
But secondly, it's okay to feelthat sense of remorse that, Hey,
if I have my time over, I'dchange things.
But the reality is you didn't,we can't assume that because you
(17:54):
didn't back then that his lifeis now going wrong and you
didn't say that so I'm notsaying that's how you think, but
often parents think, because Ididn't make a different decision
back then.
Now they've got all of thesemental health challenges and
life is going wrong.
But you are assuming again, thatlife had to be like this for
your child.
But the reality is they arealways experiencing those highs
(18:18):
and lows and you don't know thatthose challenges that he has
experienced isn't exactly whathe needs in order to be able to
be the.
that he's gonna become andpursue the desires that he's
gonna have because of thoseunwanted experiences.
Because if you look back throughyour entire life, there's
experiences that you've had thatyou wouldn't have had had you
(18:40):
not gone through those unwantedevents.
So it's not that we're gonnadeliberately put our kids in
harm's way, or we're not gonnakeep trying to advocate for them
or help them or get them ontoour perceived right path or
theirs.
Its that if life does take thisdip, regardless of what you try,
it doesn't mean their life hasgone wrong.
It doesn't mean their life isworth less.
(19:02):
It's just an experience that wecan learn from, grow from, and
that we can use in our life.
So we don't go into that missingout lens about what they've
lost.
We start to look at it from thatperspective of what have they
gained or what we can use movingforward.
Leisa Reichelt (19:18):
Yeah.
I do think that by the time myson gets to the other end of
this, his level of emotionalmaturity is gonna be so far
beyond what mine was at his agebecause of everything that he's
been exposed to and what we'vehad to work through.
Yeah.
Jackie Hall (19:34):
And it's not fun.
Like, let me just put that outthere, that it's not that we're
saying all of this and we'refeeling great about it.
And that's another misconceptionis we often think that we have
to always feel good about thingsand you're not going to, if you
are seeing your childstruggling, that doesn't feel
good.
You don't want them to struggleand you'll do whatever you can
to help them not to have tostruggle.
(19:54):
This is not about going, oh,well, he's struggling.
I'm gonna feel happy about that,it's about one not personalising
it, and two, keeping thatperspective that it's just part
of his life.
It's not his whole life and eventhat part of his life that he
might be having difficulty withat school.
He's got other aspects of hislife that aren't difficult, that
(20:14):
are fun.
So during the lows are alsohighs going on around somebody
We can use those asopportunities to find easy
things to feel good about sothat we're not getting so bogged
down in the things that arehard.
And that goes for parents aswell.
If you are going through a lotof stressful things in your
life, it's important for you tofind easy things to feel good
(20:36):
about, to be kind of like abuffer to the things that are
really hard right now.
Leisa Reichelt (20:41):
What are those kinds of things?
Because I know like we hear froma lot of our School Can't
parents that their kids don'tfind easy ways to feel good at
the moment.
A lot of them are in darkenedrooms doing very little at all
because they're extremely burnedout.
A lot of parents, don't haveincome and career anymore.
They can't leave the housebecause their kids need them
(21:02):
close by, like it's.
It can be hard to have thoseeasy moments of joy.
Jackie Hall (21:07):
Yeah.
And I think a lot of parents,when we are talking about
moments of joy, they're stillthinking about the big things.
And it can be the accumulativelittle things that make such a
difference.
Playing music that you like andliterally moving your body
dancing to the music.
It can be, watching some comedyon TikTok, just like a five
minute reel where it makes yousmile or watching an uplifting
(21:28):
video.
It could be that you're playinga board game or doing something
that you like, some sort ofhobby or interest that you like.
It can just be sitting outsidewith a cup of coffee.
It can be meditating, just doingconscious breathing, and you can
do that at any moment of theday.
A lot of the time when we think,oh, I feel bad about my life.
We're trying to find big things,big external things to feel good
(21:51):
about my life as opposed toaccumulating lots of little
things that might just make mefeel better.
And there may be so many thingsgoing on that you just can't
feel great about your life, butyou can feel better.
You can take charge of feelingbetter about things.
And what am I gonna do in thismoment that will move me towards
(22:12):
a better feeling place?
Stop putting the emphasis onbeing happy, joyful right now.
Because a lot of people try tofeel good about the thing that
they feel bad about, and it'stoo hard.
There's too much momentum.
It's like going, I've got all ofthese balls up in the air and
life is not gonna plan the waythat I want it to be, and I
dunno what the solution is.
(22:32):
And it's really hard.
And I feel really down aboutthat.
But I've just gotta change mythinking to be in alignment with
reality.
And that's why probably when I'msaying this, you're kind of
going, well, I wouldn't havebeen able to do that.
And you wouldn't have been.
There's too much momentum.
So often you have to go and dothe things that are easy to feel
good about, find the things inyour life that you already feel
grateful for, and you canalready generate an elevated
(22:54):
emotion, pay attention to thatemotion.
Milk it, stack it up.
Just like you stack up thoselenses in order to feel crappy,
you can stack up all of thegreat things in your life or
doing things that make you feelbetter and stack all that up to
get to an elevated state offeeling that you can then look
at that difficult area of yourlife because you are coming at
(23:16):
it from a different energeticfeeling space that's gonna
influence how you think and howyou behave.
When we talk about thinking,feeling, and behaving sometimes
the entry point of changing howyou think is the hardest one,
it's easier to do something tochange how you feel like
meditation or breathing or justsitting in nature or change how
(23:38):
you behave, which is going for alittle walk outside or watching
a YouTube video of somethingfunny that lifts your emotions
whatever it is for you.
Those little things can helpelevate those emotions to just
get you to a place where maybeyou can look at the challenges
and try to come at it fromeither a thinking, feeling, or
(23:58):
behaving space.
any one of those entry pointscan trigger the other two to
change as well.
Leisa Reichelt (24:04):
Okay.
So we are doing things to tryand make ourselves feel a bit
better, and we realize that wehave to change how we are
thinking about things in orderto sort of make progress on
solving these problems.
How do we enter into thatprocess of starting to think
differently, Challenge thoseprevious ideas.
Jackie Hall (24:25):
so we have what we call upgrades as well.
So there's four upgrades to thefour, stressful thinking lenses,
When we're stuck in ourstressful thinking lenses.
We're in a very narrow box.
We're only finding evidence ofwhat's going on there, and it's
a very small kind of, viewpoint.
What we needed to do is kind ofexpand out to the reality of the
(24:48):
situation, the reality ofparenting, the reality of life,
where we're noticing that thinklife is going right or wrong.
But the reality is life's just astory of experiences.
You have a lot of evidence thatlife's going wrong, and that it
should be going right.
you might have had, months,years, decades of thinking that
(25:09):
way.
And some of this will go back tochildhood belief systems because
that's where we set up our senseof self and our identity of what
I need to do in order to beworthy.
That's why all three of thoselenses always spiral down to
what does this mean about me?
We have to get to know ourselvesand understand the narratives
(25:29):
and self-worth attachments thatI have to these stories so that
I can then challenge thatthinking with these upgrades by
looking at, if I'm going throughthis challenging situation.
Its only part of my life, notall of my life.
And if I looked back over theperiod of my life, I would see
that some things I liked, somethings I didn't.
(25:51):
Some things went to plan, somethings didn't.
and you'll see this pattern ofhighs and lows, the lows led to
the highs.
The highs led to the lows.
And when you are 80 somethingyears old, you're gonna look
back on your life.
And it's just gonna be a seriesof experiences.
Some I wanted, some I didn't,some I liked, some I didn't.
Everything has value.
So we're looking through thismissing out lens going, if life
(26:13):
doesn't go to plan, I've lostsomething.
There's a lack in my life.
But the reality is there's valuein everything., Sometimes it's
about looking in your past andgoing, well, this unwanted thing
happened, but I can see thevalue in that.
I can see what I learned inthat.
So this is another scenariowhere, yes, it's tough right
now.
But it's gonna be part of thisjourney that I'm going through.
(26:33):
It's gonna be, who knows what'scoming next.
I don't know what's coming next.
I can just do the best that Ican with what I have.
Leisa Reichelt (26:40):
So in the, the context of School Can't and
education, the black and white,right and wrong thinking would
be'going to school is the rightthing to do' and then if my
child doesn't go to school andfinish school, then they've
missed out on something.
So we wanna sort of upgrade thatby saying there are lots of
different pathways to achieveeducation and do well in life.
(27:03):
And the fact that we are gonnahave to go on a slightly
different path than maybe what Ioriginally planned for has
probably got a whole lot ofvalue coming with it that I
don't even know what that isright now.
I can't anticipate that beforeit happens.
Is that a good way of sort ofgrounding.
Jackie Hall (27:20):
Absolutely.
Because we presume that one wayis, or our way is the right way
for our child's life to unfold.
But who are we to say that thatis that path for them?
There are so many differentpathways these days And we all
know that the schooling systemis very outdated and it's not
(27:40):
accommodating where currentsociety is at.
And that's got nothing to dowith the teachers.
That's not saying that theteachers are doing a bad job, or
principals are doing a bad job.
They're trying to work with anarchaic system that just doesn't
meet where we're all at.
It wasn't even created in thedigital world.
So where we've got access toinformation and options, and we
(28:01):
can do different things thatalign more with our highest
excitement, you know, so.
I remember seeing something froma professor at a university said
that he could teach somebody theeasiest of math to the hardest
of math in one year if theyloved it.
Because we can always learnsomething if we're interested in
it.
And once we kind of get thosebasics of reading and writing
(28:24):
and the general things, we canuse that in so many different
ways to learn other things.
Leisa Reichelt (28:31):
I think one of the other challenges potentially
with that as well for familieswith School Can't kids, is you
feel very isolated from societyright?
You lose your connections intothe school.
You've got lots of people whoyou can't talk to about it
because they don't understand itthey, Just think you should try
harder as a parent.
Often getting out and about ismore difficult.
You've got less money.
Jackie Hall (28:50):
Well this is again where we have to reframe our own
narrative about those things,and this is where it becomes
even more important have thathealthy mindset because people
are gonna have their opinions ofwhat you're doing.
When people behave a certainway, they do that because of
their beliefs.
(29:11):
So they're judging, criticizing,or saying those things because
they have certain beliefs thatthey're attached to.
They're still running those fourlenses.
Their behaviour comes from theirbeliefs, but your reaction to
their behaviour comes from yourbeliefs.
They only trigger something inyou that already exists.
And that would more likely bethat you are already questioning
your own worth because of thedecisions that you've made.
(29:31):
You are already judging yoursituation as wrong.
You are already looking throughthat missing out lens because
the missing out lens only comeswhen we think it's supposed to
be different, and we think we'remissing out on that right path
we're supposed to be having.
This is where the majority ofyour work in a stressful
situation is within you becausepeople are gonna judge, haters
(29:53):
are gonna hate.
But they can't get you unlessyou already entertain those
belief systems
Leisa Reichelt (29:59):
That's just slightly confronting, isn't it?
Jackie Hall (30:04):
I know when you start to realize that how you
feel is a hundred percent yourresponsibility, it changes the
game.
And it's not about blame.
When I say responsibility, it'snot about blame.
It's about giving yourself thegrace to explore who you are,
who you want to be, and trainingyourself to think and feel
differently.
Like these unwanted situations,they force us to change how we
(30:27):
are looking at things, the waythat we were looking at things
was all externally validated.
if we're gonna rely on, onlywhen life goes to plan will,
will, I feel good.
It becomes chance that you everfeel good about life because you
have to rely on things to go theway you think they should.
But if you surrender to thereality of these highs and lows
(30:48):
and you learn to go with it, andyou learn to that, it's not
wrong.
It's just part of my story youstart to go, okay, what do I
want?
How do I get it?
What's my plan?
And you give yourself grace inthat journey and not know yet,
and to see all of the greatstuff going on around those
challenging times so you don'tget bogged down in this big
(31:09):
thing.
You then start to becomeresponsible for how I feel.
And so you, it changes how longyou feel down for because you
are training yourself It's likeworking a muscle.
Leisa Reichelt (31:24):
I wonder whether you would say that sort of a, a
grieving period is grief is partof the process as well,
Jackie Hall (31:31):
Grief is the missing out
Leisa Reichelt (31:32):
I.
Jackie Hall (31:33):
whether we're grieving a loved one, whether
we're grieving life plan that wewanted, it's still that missing
out lens.
And I have to adjust to that newreality.
And when somebody is ready to dothat, it's not about saying
that, if I'm in grief, it'swrong because it's not, emotions
are not right or wrong, they'rejust, it's about cause and
(31:53):
effect.
When I think a certain way, I'llfeel a certain way.
It's very kind of mechanical inthat way.
when I think a certain way, Iproduce chemicals in the body.
I get used to how that feels andI label it.
So it's just that thinking,feeling, connection.
And so when we're wanting tochange that, it's about when
people have like, I don't wantto grieve that anymore, then
(32:14):
we've gotta look at how we'reperceiving it.
Some people will be attached tothe vision of my family life
that I thought we were gonnahave.
The vision of the relationshipthat I thought I was gonna have
with my child, the vision of thecareer that I thought I was
gonna have while my childrenwere happily at school.
These are the things thatchallenge us to rethink who I
(32:36):
am, who I wanna be, and how I'mgonna express those goals in my
life now that I'm faced withthis curve ball and I can no
longer do it the way that Ithought I would.
And it's surrendering to, if youcan't do it the way you thought
you would, then you have topivot and the brain doesn't like
(32:57):
pivot.
It likes categories.
It likes rules.
It likes reference pointsbecause that's what keeps it
safe.
And anything new feels unsafeand anything new feels hard.
And that's why when you go tochange those thought processes,
the brain's just gonna go, nah.
You're gonna have to labor forfinding evidence of those
upgrades because you don't haveto labor to find evidence of the
(33:19):
stressful thinking lenses.
We get that all the time.
'cause the first two weeks ofour program is always about the
parents and their mental health.
And we're looking at the lensesand we're looking at the
upgrades.
And all the time parents will belike, oh my God, that's me.
I can see those lenses.
Oh wow, I didn't realize that Iwas doing that.
I'm doing that everywhere.
And they're so engaged.
And then the second week, you'rejust hear crickets.
And you'd be like, this isbecause it's hard.
(33:40):
And most people won't challengethose belief systems and won't
do the work with repetition andconsistency to retrain the mind
and the body to thinkdifferently, feel differently,
and behave differently becauseit's too hard.
Leisa Reichelt (33:54):
Yeah.
When we came to talk aboutparental self-care.
I think I maybe imagined thatthis episode would be a bit more
about bubble baths and, youknow, walks in the forest and
various other things like,sounds like bloody hard work.
Jackie Hall (34:10):
Yeah, and this is why you need those behavioural
buffers, right?
The walking in the park, thebubble baths, the meditations.
You need those things becausethey are easy, right?
But the real work comes with theinternal conversations you're
having with yourself.
this is growth, this isevolution., Because science is
giving us new information abouthow the brain works, how the
(34:31):
body works, how the nervoussystem works, and we are
realizing that it's all withinus, that we have the power to
control how I feel and how I runmy life.
But we have to go through aprocess of letting go of the old
so that we can start tosurrender and practice the new.
Some people are holding ontothat with as much resistance as
(34:52):
they can, and other people arejust embracing it.
Sometimes you'll just swingbetween the two.
Leisa Reichelt (34:57):
Amazing.
Just to wrap up, Jackie, ifpeople who are listening, want
to learn more about these lensesand the upgrades and all the
work that you're doing, where'sthe best place for them to find
you?
Jackie Hall (35:08):
They can find us at parentalstresscenter.com.
We also have a podcast calledBeneath Behaviour, so you can
jump onto any of your YouTube,Spotify, Apple, and listen to my
podcasts as well, where I talk alot about these lenses and
upgrades.
Leisa Reichelt (35:24):
Amazing.
Thank you very much, Jackie.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
Jackie Hall (35:28):
Thanks so much for having me, Leisa.
Appreciate your time.
Leisa Reichelt (35:32):
Well, there we go.
That's a massive challenge forall of us to make sure we're
looking at life in a way that isaligned with reality and not
unnecessarily causing stress.
It's hard work, and I wanna takea moment to recognize all our
School Can't parents who arehaving to make massive changes
in our thinking and feeling aswell as very often in the way
that we live our lives.
(35:52):
There are so many of us who havehad to and will have to make
massive life changes to supportour School Can't children.
We see you and we thank you forwhat you do.
If you have some other topicsyou'd like us to cover on the
School Can't Experience Podcast,or you have a School Can't lived
experience that you'd be willingto share, please drop us an
email toschoolcantpodcast@gmail.com.
(36:14):
We would very much love to hearfrom you.
I'm gonna put links to theParental Stress Center as well
as to Jackie's podcast BeneathBehavior into the episode notes.
I am also gonna put a link tothe School Can't Australia
website as well as to donate toSchool Can't Australia.
Your tax deductible donationsassist us to raise community
awareness, partner withresearchers, produce resources
(36:36):
like webinars, and this podcastwhich assist people who are
supporting children and youngpeople experiencing School
Can't.
If you are a parent or carer inAustralia and you are feeling
distressed, remember you canalways call the Parent Helpline
in your state.
A link with the number to callis in our episode notes.
Thank you again for listening.
We'll talk again soon.
(36:56):
Take care.
Hello and welcome to the School Can't
Experience Podcast.
I'm Leisa Reichelt, and thispodcast is brought to you by the
School Can't Australiacommunity.
Caring for a young person who isstruggling to attend school can
be a stressful and isolatingexperience, but you are not
alone.
Thousands of parents acrossAustralia and many more around
the world face similarchallenges and experiences every
(00:26):
day.
Today we're talking with JackieHall, who is the founder of the
Parental Stress Center, aboutways she teaches parents to
shift how they think, feel, andbehave in order to reduce stress
and increase the peace in ourlives.
Well, let's get started then.
And I would love to start justby you giving us a little
introduction to Jackie.
Like tell us a little bit aboutyour background and how you've
(00:47):
come to be doing what you'redoing now.
Jackie Hall (00:49):
Okay.
So my business, the ParentalStress Center started 17 years
ago, when my son was about twoand a half, and my other son was
about six months old.
And I was going through my ownparental stress difficulties and
had what I call my breakdown toget my breakthrough.
I'd done heaps of personaldevelopment stuff before, but
(01:10):
never thought to apply it toparenting'cause I was too busy
trying to get it right andhating myself for getting it
wrong.
And so after I had my minibreakdown, I kind of applied
everything I'd been learning andstarted to, write as if I was
teaching it as I was learning itand applying it myself.
Now I've written 15 onlineprograms, five books, supporting
general parents.
in between all of that time Ialso got, qualified as a
(01:33):
professional counselor.
I did residential youth carework.
I've worked in drug and alcoholretreats, and so bring family
dynamics, sensitive and traumainformed approaches can look at
it from that perspective ofanxiety, depression, and
basically that has always fueledme to help people to never have
(01:54):
to feel the way that I did.
in the last four years.
in addition to helping generalparents, we've also been helping
parents of autistic children,understand what's going on for
their child and, and have aneuro affirming approach.
But generally at the heart ofeverything is a sense of
self-awareness from the parentto kind of look at, what must I
(02:15):
be thinking to feel the way thatI am., Whenever we're trying to
change behaviour, we have tolook at, the parents and their
response and the child and theirresponse.
And we have to look at themindependently and look at them
together.
So that's in essence where wecome from when we're helping
parents at the Parental StressCenter.
Leisa Reichelt (02:34):
You just said helping parents think about what
must I be thinking to feel theway I'm feeling?
Did I get that right?
Jackie Hall (02:41):
Yes, that's exactly right.
to understand what must I bethinking, to be feeling the way
that I am or to be behaving theway that I am.
Leisa Reichelt (02:48):
Yeah.
I would love for you to unpackthat.
'cause I think that's, often notthe first place that we go to
when we're trying to like makeourselves feel better or work
out how to deal with situations.
But I think it's at the heart ofit, isn't it?
Jackie Hall (03:01):
Absolutely, because often when we have an external
problem or something that'shappening in our life that we
don't like, we think that wehave to change what's happening
out there before we can feelbetter within here.
And sometimes you can do thatand sometimes you can't, but you
can always change what's goingon in here and by being
(03:22):
self-aware of what I'm thinking,what I'm feeling, and how I'm
behaving and altering that it'sgonna change how you're
perceiving that event.
How you're feeling about thatevent and how you approach that
event.
Because when we're thinkingthrough what we call our
stressful thinking lenses, wherewe're thinking in this right
(03:43):
versus this wrong path, thatthere's a right way to do things
and a wrong way for things tohappen.
And if things are going wrong,then my life's going off track
we'll have all these ideas ofwhat life is supposed to look
like or what experiences aresupposed to look like.
And we get attached to theseideas.
And if they're not going toplan, I then go into a missing
out lens.
Or I feel like there's some sortof lack void or some sort of
(04:04):
loss in an experience I'msupposed to have.
We go into blame where we thinkI should be behaving differently
or someone else should bebehaving differently.
And then all three of thoselenses, right versus wrong,
missing out, and could have,should have all spiraled down
into the core belief.
Where we're always asking thequestion, what does this mean
and what does this mean aboutme?
(04:25):
So I'm always personalisingwhat's going on in that external
environment.
And so the more we think throughthese lenses, the more we find
evidence of those lenses.
And we just keep playing thisnarrative over and over again.
how we think is gonna influencehow we feel and how we feel is
gonna influence how we behave.
And they all interact together.
So when we're challenged by asituation with our child, if
(04:50):
we're in the world of us rollingaround in those lenses.
Then it's difficult for us tojump outta the world of us and
into the world of the child toask what must they be thinking,
to be feeling the way that theyare to be behaving the way that
they are.
So we have to get clear on ournarrative and change that
narrative to come to a place ofneutrality where we can go,
(05:12):
okay, the reality is.
This is what I'm experiencing,so what can I do about it and
why is it actually happening?
And look at it with curiosityinstead of personalising it and
going into resistance to what'shappening.
There's one thing that I oftensay is that all emotional stress
is a conflict between belief andreality.
(05:35):
So the reality is my child's notable to go to school right now.
The belief is they shouldn't befeeling this way.
I should be able to get them togo to school.
It's wrong if they don't go toschool, I'm gonna get in trouble
if they don't go to school,they're gonna be missing out on
all the things that they needfor their quality education.
And there's this, this wholenarrative is just gonna find
(05:57):
more and more evidence and allyour attention's over here stuck
in a story that's in conflictwith reality.
So if we can change how we arethinking about it and change how
we're feeling about it andchange how we respond to it,
then it's gonna change theconversations that you have with
your child.
It's gonna change yourunderstanding of what's
happening for your child inorder to get to the heart of
(06:20):
what's going on for your child,to be able to put the right
strategies in place, if thatmakes sense.
Leisa Reichelt (06:26):
It makes sense.
It sounds great in theory.
Jackie Hall (06:31):
I always make it sound so easy, right?
Leisa Reichelt (06:33):
Yeah, because I think also in practice, if I go
back to what were some of themost difficult times?
I had a full-time job.
My husband was working.
there was a lot going on inlife.
There was mortgages to pay, youknow, the financial pressure,
there was busyness and my childnot going to school.
(06:55):
Yes, I felt bad because whatkind of a parent am I that I
can't even get my kid to go toschool?
What am I doing wrong?
How do I do it better?
You know, that was where myheadset was at, but I'm also
like, I've got a meeting that Ineed to get to.
I'm letting people downeverywhere at the moment and
you're just caught in thisabsolute, maelstrom of stress
(07:17):
really, and thinking of this hasnot got anything to do with how
I'm thinking about things.
This is about logistics.
This is about finance.
This is about like day-to-daylife stuff.
You must meet a lot of parentswho are living this experience,
Jackie Hall (07:31):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (07:32):
How do we make the journey from the panic and
chaos of day-to-day sort oflogistical life and you know,
dreading nighttime and dreadingmorning and everything right, to
being able to step back andthink about it differently.
Jackie Hall (07:47):
All of that is often got this undertone of it
shouldn't be happening.
It's supposed to be different.
I'm supposed to be experiencinglife differently and you may
want to experience lifedifferently, and that's why
we're trying to find solutions,right?
But the reality is you're notthere right now.
All it is, is you'reexperiencing all of these events
(08:07):
with a lot of resistance andthinking that I'm supposed to be
somewhere else than where I amon my life journey.
Sometimes we've gotta look atthat bigger picture where the
reality of life is not thisstraight line.
And that's often what we'reindoctrinated to believe, is
that we're supposed to beticking all these boxes, getting
life right, and life's supposedto be easy.
(08:27):
But the reality, and this isthat conflict between belief and
reality, is that sometimes it'snot easy.
Sometimes we don't have theanswers.
Sometimes we're in the unknownof not knowing what the answer
is and not knowing where theanswer's gonna come.
That's the reality.
It's not the event that triggersthe stress or the several events
that you just mentioned.
(08:49):
It's how I perceive those eventsand what I perceive it to mean
about me.
So I'm personalising it becausea lot of the time the narrative
is I should be able to beeverything to everyone at the
same time, and that again, is inconflict with reality because
you can only do the best thatyou can.
If you've got meetings you'vegot to go to, this is not you
(09:10):
actively letting other peopledown.
If you could get to thosemeetings, you would get to those
meetings, but the reality is youhave to prioritise certain
things and your child in thatmoment had to be prioritised.
The hardest thing, is tosurrender with all the balls
you've got up in the air andpick up one at a time and
recognise that I cannot hold allof these balls in the air right
(09:33):
now, so something has to dropand maybe there is a solution,
but right now, in this moment, Idon't have that solution.
So all I can do is the best Ican with the information that I
have.
And then when I've got throughthat moment, it's about
reflecting on it and go, okay.
What was going on in thatmoment?
What was happening for my childto not be able to go to school?
(09:56):
Could I have done it anydifferently?
And not from the perspective ofblame or shaming yourself for
making the decisions that youmade, but just looking at it and
learning from it.
Because as we're going throughthese highs and lows, we're all
living, learning, sharing,growing, and evolving.
And that's the whole purpose oflife.
We're taught that we should beattached to this right path.
(10:19):
You can want a certain pathway.
You can pursue a certainpathway, and you can see that
you are not on that pathway andtry to understand it and correct
it.
None of your goals andexpectations are the problem.
The problem is that we arepersonalising it when you are
not there yet.
(10:40):
You think that life is goingwrong because you're
experiencing challenges, andthat is, it's difficult to
experience in them.
So I don't in any way wannatrivialize all of those balls
that parents have in the airbecause it is hard.
But hard doesn't mean wrong,hard doesn't mean there's
something wrong with you.
That's the important distinctionto make, that's gonna alleviate
(11:04):
your stress.
It may not mean that you are allpeace and mungbeans about those
situations, but if you're notpersonalising it, the level of
ability that you will have to besolution focused or to be
curious about what's going onwill be so much better and so
much stronger because you're notrolling around in this lens of
this means something about me.
(11:25):
This means something about mylife.
So you keep looking at what'sgoing wrong.
You're not looking at what'sgoing right.
If you're looking at what you'remissing out on, you're not
looking for the opportunities.
So this is why we've gotta lookat that mindset and come back
into alignment with the reality.
This is what I'm facing, solet's get curious about it, try
to understand it, and try to dothe best that I can with the
(11:47):
knowledge that I have put thingsin place to resolve this issue
as best I can.
But in the meantime, I have tosurrender.
I don't know all of the answers,and maybe I just haven't found
that possibility yet, Does thatkind of help a little bit?
Leisa Reichelt (12:04):
It does and it doesn't, right?
Because I think.
When you're in the thick of it,especially in the early stages
of the journey, I think thesituation that you find yourself
in, the trajectory that you'reon, can seem intractable, right?
We have all of these commitmentsthat mean we can't entertain
other options.
And I am looking for what?
What can I do?
What's the technique that I canuse that's gonna fix this?
(12:27):
I think that's often thementality that we have, isn't
it?
When we first run into theseschool attendance challenges.
Jackie Hall (12:32):
Yeah.
And I think, something reallyinteresting is that because we
often have a picture of how wethink it's supposed to be.
Often even the opportunitieswe're looking for is still
coming from that attachedpicture, that picture, that
attachment I have to thatpicture.
So, an example is that a friendof mine is trying to pursue
(12:57):
something in his career andeverything is getting in his way
that it's not happening for him.
I was like, if this is actuallygetting you what you want, but
you have to go in a completelydifferent direction to get it.
But often, I've got all theseother commitments that I can't
(13:20):
change, and I would challengeyou to actually look at can you
change those other commitments?
Because sometimes we get soattached to that, I can't change
those commitments.
That we're not seeingpossibilities for you to maybe
be able to change some of thosecommitments and go in a
completely different directionthat you hadn't even thought of
(13:42):
because you are attached to,trying to make it work in this
scenario.
There's nothing wrong with that.
it's not about right or wrong,it's about looking at it from
different angles and going, am Iattached to a certain outcome of
how it should be?
And is there another possibilitythat maybe that's not the
outcome we need to pursue?
And so an example in referenceto school is often parents with
(14:04):
15 or 16-year-old kids, getattached to the idea of them
finishing school.
But at this age, there are somany other options that may help
them pursue something that keepsthem learning, in more of a
practical way.
But they haven't thought aboutthat avenue because they think
the only option is to finishschool.
the same can be said sometimesand not all times'cause
(14:26):
everybody's situation'sdifferent.
Sometimes that can be the samewith the homeschooling route
we're saying I couldn't possiblyhomeschool.
Because I couldn't afford it.
But that statement in itself canstop you from being able to
explore whether you actuallycould afford it or there's some
other opportunity to be able toafford it.
(14:46):
And sometimes that means lettinggo of other lifestyle things
that we're also attached to.
So it's complex, you know, andthat's why it's about being
self-aware of what we'reattached to and how we're seeing
that situation if I wave mymagic wand, what would I want
here?
am I exploring all of theoptions to get there?
Leisa Reichelt (15:07):
Yeah, I had all these commitments that I
couldn't let go of, but I,remember my life as it was three
or four years ago.
And look at it today is sodifferent.
You know, I had a big job.
I had a career.
I definitely thought my two boyswere gonna go through and get
their HSC and go on and do, youknow, probably uni, maybe
something else.
You know, we lived in acompletely different place.
(15:29):
Like we've had to, chosen tomake so many different changes
to how we live and how we thinkabout what a successful outcome
for our children is over thecourse of those years.
But I think if you'd have toldme that three or four years ago,
I wouldn't have believed it andwould've been horrified.
Jackie Hall (15:50):
you know, what you've highlighted there is
that, you had to drop some ofyour expectations.
You had to make those changesand pivot.
Sometimes when we've created anideal of our life, in terms of
career and what we're doing on aday-to-day basis, we had no idea
what parenting was gonna belike, and no idea of these
(16:10):
challenges.
We get attached to the identitythat's associated with that
lifestyle or that career or thatperson that I am in this circle.
it's easier to say I can't getout of that circle and I have no
options than it is to actuallygo, maybe there's another way
that I can feel as good as I doin this circle by pivoting and
(16:34):
changing certain things in mylife.
And I don't know what that isfor every single individual
unless we had a conversationabout your specific
circumstances, but it's justanother example of how the brain
can lock us in to a fixed way ofviewing things that prevent us
from seeing other opportunities.
Leisa Reichelt (16:56):
no, that's very true.
And I have to say, with regret,I look back now and I see the
level of distress that my sonhad to get to before I was able
to really contemplate thosesignificant changes
Jackie Hall (17:10):
But let's, unpack that a little bit because a lot
of parents do that where theyreflect back on something and
they go, I should have done itdifferently, or I should have
done it earlier.
The reality is, firstly, youcouldn't have done it
differently because you wereoperating with the information
that you had in that moment, andyou were making decisions based
(17:30):
on those priority beliefs inthat moment, not knowing what
the outcome would be, thinkingthat you were doing the best by
him and the family and thesituation at hand.
So firstly, you couldn't havemade a different decision.
But secondly, it's okay to feelthat sense of remorse that, Hey,
if I have my time over, I'dchange things.
But the reality is you didn't,we can't assume that because you
(17:54):
didn't back then that his lifeis now going wrong and you
didn't say that so I'm notsaying that's how you think, but
often parents think, because Ididn't make a different decision
back then.
Now they've got all of thesemental health challenges and
life is going wrong.
But you are assuming again, thatlife had to be like this for
your child.
But the reality is they arealways experiencing those highs
(18:18):
and lows and you don't know thatthose challenges that he has
experienced isn't exactly whathe needs in order to be able to
be the.
that he's gonna become andpursue the desires that he's
gonna have because of thoseunwanted experiences.
Because if you look back throughyour entire life, there's
experiences that you've had thatyou wouldn't have had had you
(18:40):
not gone through those unwantedevents.
So it's not that we're gonnadeliberately put our kids in
harm's way, or we're not gonnakeep trying to advocate for them
or help them or get them ontoour perceived right path or
theirs.
Its that if life does take thisdip, regardless of what you try,
it doesn't mean their life hasgone wrong.
It doesn't mean their life isworth less.
(19:02):
It's just an experience that wecan learn from, grow from, and
that we can use in our life.
So we don't go into that missingout lens about what they've
lost.
We start to look at it from thatperspective of what have they
gained or what we can use movingforward.
Leisa Reichelt (19:18):
Yeah.
I do think that by the time myson gets to the other end of
this, his level of emotionalmaturity is gonna be so far
beyond what mine was at his agebecause of everything that he's
been exposed to and what we'vehad to work through.
Yeah.
Jackie Hall (19:34):
And it's not fun.
Like, let me just put that outthere, that it's not that we're
saying all of this and we'refeeling great about it.
And that's another misconceptionis we often think that we have
to always feel good about thingsand you're not going to, if you
are seeing your childstruggling, that doesn't feel
good.
You don't want them to struggleand you'll do whatever you can
to help them not to have tostruggle.
(19:54):
This is not about going, oh,well, he's struggling.
I'm gonna feel happy about that,it's about one not personalising
it, and two, keeping thatperspective that it's just part
of his life.
It's not his whole life and eventhat part of his life that he
might be having difficulty withat school.
He's got other aspects of hislife that aren't difficult, that
(20:14):
are fun.
So during the lows are alsohighs going on around somebody
We can use those asopportunities to find easy
things to feel good about sothat we're not getting so bogged
down in the things that arehard.
And that goes for parents aswell.
If you are going through a lotof stressful things in your
life, it's important for you tofind easy things to feel good
(20:36):
about, to be kind of like abuffer to the things that are
really hard right now.
Leisa Reichelt (20:41):
What are those kinds of things?
Because I know like we hear froma lot of our School Can't
parents that their kids don'tfind easy ways to feel good at
the moment.
A lot of them are in darkenedrooms doing very little at all
because they're extremely burnedout.
A lot of parents, don't haveincome and career anymore.
They can't leave the housebecause their kids need them
(21:02):
close by, like it's.
It can be hard to have thoseeasy moments of joy.
Jackie Hall (21:07):
Yeah.
And I think a lot of parents,when we are talking about
moments of joy, they're stillthinking about the big things.
And it can be the accumulativelittle things that make such a
difference.
Playing music that you like andliterally moving your body
dancing to the music.
It can be, watching some comedyon TikTok, just like a five
minute reel where it makes yousmile or watching an uplifting
(21:28):
video.
It could be that you're playinga board game or doing something
that you like, some sort ofhobby or interest that you like.
It can just be sitting outsidewith a cup of coffee.
It can be meditating, just doingconscious breathing, and you can
do that at any moment of theday.
A lot of the time when we think,oh, I feel bad about my life.
We're trying to find big things,big external things to feel good
(21:51):
about my life as opposed toaccumulating lots of little
things that might just make mefeel better.
And there may be so many thingsgoing on that you just can't
feel great about your life, butyou can feel better.
You can take charge of feelingbetter about things.
And what am I gonna do in thismoment that will move me towards
(22:12):
a better feeling place?
Stop putting the emphasis onbeing happy, joyful right now.
Because a lot of people try tofeel good about the thing that
they feel bad about, and it'stoo hard.
There's too much momentum.
It's like going, I've got all ofthese balls up in the air and
life is not gonna plan the waythat I want it to be, and I
dunno what the solution is.
(22:32):
And it's really hard.
And I feel really down aboutthat.
But I've just gotta change mythinking to be in alignment with
reality.
And that's why probably when I'msaying this, you're kind of
going, well, I wouldn't havebeen able to do that.
And you wouldn't have been.
There's too much momentum.
So often you have to go and dothe things that are easy to feel
good about, find the things inyour life that you already feel
grateful for, and you canalready generate an elevated
(22:54):
emotion, pay attention to thatemotion.
Milk it, stack it up.
Just like you stack up thoselenses in order to feel crappy,
you can stack up all of thegreat things in your life or
doing things that make you feelbetter and stack all that up to
get to an elevated state offeeling that you can then look
at that difficult area of yourlife because you are coming at
(23:16):
it from a different energeticfeeling space that's gonna
influence how you think and howyou behave.
When we talk about thinking,feeling, and behaving sometimes
the entry point of changing howyou think is the hardest one,
it's easier to do something tochange how you feel like
meditation or breathing or justsitting in nature or change how
(23:38):
you behave, which is going for alittle walk outside or watching
a YouTube video of somethingfunny that lifts your emotions
whatever it is for you.
Those little things can helpelevate those emotions to just
get you to a place where maybeyou can look at the challenges
and try to come at it fromeither a thinking, feeling, or
(23:58):
behaving space.
any one of those entry pointscan trigger the other two to
change as well.
Leisa Reichelt (24:04):
Okay.
So we are doing things to tryand make ourselves feel a bit
better, and we realize that wehave to change how we are
thinking about things in orderto sort of make progress on
solving these problems.
How do we enter into thatprocess of starting to think
differently, Challenge thoseprevious ideas.
Jackie Hall (24:25):
so we have what we call upgrades as well.
So there's four upgrades to thefour, stressful thinking lenses,
When we're stuck in ourstressful thinking lenses.
We're in a very narrow box.
We're only finding evidence ofwhat's going on there, and it's
a very small kind of, viewpoint.
What we needed to do is kind ofexpand out to the reality of the
(24:48):
situation, the reality ofparenting, the reality of life,
where we're noticing that thinklife is going right or wrong.
But the reality is life's just astory of experiences.
You have a lot of evidence thatlife's going wrong, and that it
should be going right.
you might have had, months,years, decades of thinking that
(25:09):
way.
And some of this will go back tochildhood belief systems because
that's where we set up our senseof self and our identity of what
I need to do in order to beworthy.
That's why all three of thoselenses always spiral down to
what does this mean about me?
We have to get to know ourselvesand understand the narratives
(25:29):
and self-worth attachments thatI have to these stories so that
I can then challenge thatthinking with these upgrades by
looking at, if I'm going throughthis challenging situation.
Its only part of my life, notall of my life.
And if I looked back over theperiod of my life, I would see
that some things I liked, somethings I didn't.
(25:51):
Some things went to plan, somethings didn't.
and you'll see this pattern ofhighs and lows, the lows led to
the highs.
The highs led to the lows.
And when you are 80 somethingyears old, you're gonna look
back on your life.
And it's just gonna be a seriesof experiences.
Some I wanted, some I didn't,some I liked, some I didn't.
Everything has value.
So we're looking through thismissing out lens going, if life
(26:13):
doesn't go to plan, I've lostsomething.
There's a lack in my life.
But the reality is there's valuein everything., Sometimes it's
about looking in your past andgoing, well, this unwanted thing
happened, but I can see thevalue in that.
I can see what I learned inthat.
So this is another scenariowhere, yes, it's tough right
now.
But it's gonna be part of thisjourney that I'm going through.
(26:33):
It's gonna be, who knows what'scoming next.
I don't know what's coming next.
I can just do the best that Ican with what I have.
Leisa Reichelt (26:40):
So in the, the context of School Can't and
education, the black and white,right and wrong thinking would
be'going to school is the rightthing to do' and then if my
child doesn't go to school andfinish school, then they've
missed out on something.
So we wanna sort of upgrade thatby saying there are lots of
different pathways to achieveeducation and do well in life.
(27:03):
And the fact that we are gonnahave to go on a slightly
different path than maybe what Ioriginally planned for has
probably got a whole lot ofvalue coming with it that I
don't even know what that isright now.
I can't anticipate that beforeit happens.
Is that a good way of sort ofgrounding.
Jackie Hall (27:20):
Absolutely.
Because we presume that one wayis, or our way is the right way
for our child's life to unfold.
But who are we to say that thatis that path for them?
There are so many differentpathways these days And we all
know that the schooling systemis very outdated and it's not
(27:40):
accommodating where currentsociety is at.
And that's got nothing to dowith the teachers.
That's not saying that theteachers are doing a bad job, or
principals are doing a bad job.
They're trying to work with anarchaic system that just doesn't
meet where we're all at.
It wasn't even created in thedigital world.
So where we've got access toinformation and options, and we
(28:01):
can do different things thatalign more with our highest
excitement, you know, so.
I remember seeing something froma professor at a university said
that he could teach somebody theeasiest of math to the hardest
of math in one year if theyloved it.
Because we can always learnsomething if we're interested in
it.
And once we kind of get thosebasics of reading and writing
(28:24):
and the general things, we canuse that in so many different
ways to learn other things.
Leisa Reichelt (28:31):
I think one of the other challenges potentially
with that as well for familieswith School Can't kids, is you
feel very isolated from societyright?
You lose your connections intothe school.
You've got lots of people whoyou can't talk to about it
because they don't understand itthey, Just think you should try
harder as a parent.
Often getting out and about ismore difficult.
You've got less money.
Jackie Hall (28:50):
Well this is again where we have to reframe our own
narrative about those things,and this is where it becomes
even more important have thathealthy mindset because people
are gonna have their opinions ofwhat you're doing.
When people behave a certainway, they do that because of
their beliefs.
(29:11):
So they're judging, criticizing,or saying those things because
they have certain beliefs thatthey're attached to.
They're still running those fourlenses.
Their behaviour comes from theirbeliefs, but your reaction to
their behaviour comes from yourbeliefs.
They only trigger something inyou that already exists.
And that would more likely bethat you are already questioning
your own worth because of thedecisions that you've made.
(29:31):
You are already judging yoursituation as wrong.
You are already looking throughthat missing out lens because
the missing out lens only comeswhen we think it's supposed to
be different, and we think we'remissing out on that right path
we're supposed to be having.
This is where the majority ofyour work in a stressful
situation is within you becausepeople are gonna judge, haters
(29:53):
are gonna hate.
But they can't get you unlessyou already entertain those
belief systems
Leisa Reichelt (29:59):
That's just slightly confronting, isn't it?
Jackie Hall (30:04):
I know when you start to realize that how you
feel is a hundred percent yourresponsibility, it changes the
game.
And it's not about blame.
When I say responsibility, it'snot about blame.
It's about giving yourself thegrace to explore who you are,
who you want to be, and trainingyourself to think and feel
differently.
Like these unwanted situations,they force us to change how we
(30:27):
are looking at things, the waythat we were looking at things
was all externally validated.
if we're gonna rely on, onlywhen life goes to plan will,
will, I feel good.
It becomes chance that you everfeel good about life because you
have to rely on things to go theway you think they should.
But if you surrender to thereality of these highs and lows
(30:48):
and you learn to go with it, andyou learn to that, it's not
wrong.
It's just part of my story youstart to go, okay, what do I
want?
How do I get it?
What's my plan?
And you give yourself grace inthat journey and not know yet,
and to see all of the greatstuff going on around those
challenging times so you don'tget bogged down in this big
(31:09):
thing.
You then start to becomeresponsible for how I feel.
And so you, it changes how longyou feel down for because you
are training yourself It's likeworking a muscle.
Leisa Reichelt (31:24):
I wonder whether you would say that sort of a, a
grieving period is grief is partof the process as well,
Jackie Hall (31:31):
Grief is the missing out
Leisa Reichelt (31:32):
I.
Jackie Hall (31:33):
whether we're grieving a loved one, whether
we're grieving life plan that wewanted, it's still that missing
out lens.
And I have to adjust to that newreality.
And when somebody is ready to dothat, it's not about saying
that, if I'm in grief, it'swrong because it's not, emotions
are not right or wrong, they'rejust, it's about cause and
(31:53):
effect.
When I think a certain way, I'llfeel a certain way.
It's very kind of mechanical inthat way.
when I think a certain way, Iproduce chemicals in the body.
I get used to how that feels andI label it.
So it's just that thinking,feeling, connection.
And so when we're wanting tochange that, it's about when
people have like, I don't wantto grieve that anymore, then
(32:14):
we've gotta look at how we'reperceiving it.
Some people will be attached tothe vision of my family life
that I thought we were gonnahave.
The vision of the relationshipthat I thought I was gonna have
with my child, the vision of thecareer that I thought I was
gonna have while my childrenwere happily at school.
These are the things thatchallenge us to rethink who I
(32:36):
am, who I wanna be, and how I'mgonna express those goals in my
life now that I'm faced withthis curve ball and I can no
longer do it the way that Ithought I would.
And it's surrendering to, if youcan't do it the way you thought
you would, then you have topivot and the brain doesn't like
(32:57):
pivot.
It likes categories.
It likes rules.
It likes reference pointsbecause that's what keeps it
safe.
And anything new feels unsafeand anything new feels hard.
And that's why when you go tochange those thought processes,
the brain's just gonna go, nah.
You're gonna have to labor forfinding evidence of those
upgrades because you don't haveto labor to find evidence of the
(33:19):
stressful thinking lenses.
We get that all the time.
'cause the first two weeks ofour program is always about the
parents and their mental health.
And we're looking at the lensesand we're looking at the
upgrades.
And all the time parents will belike, oh my God, that's me.
I can see those lenses.
Oh wow, I didn't realize that Iwas doing that.
I'm doing that everywhere.
And they're so engaged.
And then the second week, you'rejust hear crickets.
And you'd be like, this isbecause it's hard.
(33:40):
And most people won't challengethose belief systems and won't
do the work with repetition andconsistency to retrain the mind
and the body to thinkdifferently, feel differently,
and behave differently becauseit's too hard.
Leisa Reichelt (33:54):
Yeah.
When we came to talk aboutparental self-care.
I think I maybe imagined thatthis episode would be a bit more
about bubble baths and, youknow, walks in the forest and
various other things like,sounds like bloody hard work.
Jackie Hall (34:10):
Yeah, and this is why you need those behavioural
buffers, right?
The walking in the park, thebubble baths, the meditations.
You need those things becausethey are easy, right?
But the real work comes with theinternal conversations you're
having with yourself.
this is growth, this isevolution., Because science is
giving us new information abouthow the brain works, how the
(34:31):
body works, how the nervoussystem works, and we are
realizing that it's all withinus, that we have the power to
control how I feel and how I runmy life.
But we have to go through aprocess of letting go of the old
so that we can start tosurrender and practice the new.
Some people are holding ontothat with as much resistance as
(34:52):
they can, and other people arejust embracing it.
Sometimes you'll just swingbetween the two.
Leisa Reichelt (34:57):
Amazing.
Just to wrap up, Jackie, ifpeople who are listening, want
to learn more about these lensesand the upgrades and all the
work that you're doing, where'sthe best place for them to find
you?
Jackie Hall (35:08):
They can find us at parentalstresscenter.com.
We also have a podcast calledBeneath Behaviour, so you can
jump onto any of your YouTube,Spotify, Apple, and listen to my
podcasts as well, where I talk alot about these lenses and
upgrades.
Leisa Reichelt (35:24):
Amazing.
Thank you very much, Jackie.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
Jackie Hall (35:28):
Thanks so much for having me, Leisa.
Appreciate your time.
Leisa Reichelt (35:32):
Well, there we go.
That's a massive challenge forall of us to make sure we're
looking at life in a way that isaligned with reality and not
unnecessarily causing stress.
It's hard work, and I wanna takea moment to recognize all our
School Can't parents who arehaving to make massive changes
in our thinking and feeling aswell as very often in the way
that we live our lives.
(35:52):
There are so many of us who havehad to and will have to make
massive life changes to supportour School Can't children.
We see you and we thank you forwhat you do.
If you have some other topicsyou'd like us to cover on the
School Can't Experience Podcast,or you have a School Can't lived
experience that you'd be willingto share, please drop us an
email toschoolcantpodcast@gmail.com.
(36:14):
We would very much love to hearfrom you.
I'm gonna put links to theParental Stress Center as well
as to Jackie's podcast BeneathBehavior into the episode notes.
I am also gonna put a link tothe School Can't Australia
website as well as to donate toSchool Can't Australia.
Your tax deductible donationsassist us to raise community
awareness, partner withresearchers, produce resources
(36:36):
like webinars, and this podcastwhich assist people who are
supporting children and youngpeople experiencing School
Can't.
If you are a parent or carer inAustralia and you are feeling
distressed, remember you canalways call the Parent Helpline
in your state.
A link with the number to callis in our episode notes.
Thank you again for listening.
We'll talk again soon.
(36:56):
Take care.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com