June 2, 2025 • 30 mins
In this episode of the School Can't Experience Podcast, host Leisa Reichelt is joined by clinical psychologist Adelle Sushames to discuss innovative methods for improving communication with neurodivergent children.
Adelle shares her journey, introduces the card decks she has created (Spoon Thieves, Spoon Savers, ND Me), and explains how these tools help children articulate their experiences and needs.
The conversation covers the challenges of traditional deficit models in psychology, the importance of affirming language, and practical strategies for parents and educators to foster better understanding and support for autistic and ADHD kids.
Adelle shares valuable insights into how we can facilitate communication when communication is hard, and the benefits of using non-verbal tools to reduce stress for both children and caregivers.
00:00 Welcome to the School Can't Experience Podcast
00:27 Introducing Adelle Sushames: Clinical Psychologist and Card Deck Creator
01:09 Adelle's Journey to Understanding Neurodivergence
06:17 Challenges in Communication with Neurodivergent Kids
14:16 Using Spoon Theory to Understand Energy Drain
21:46 Spoon Savers: Tools to Replenish Energy
23:36 Applying Card Decks in Real Life
27:07 Empowering Schools with Spoons at School Cards
29:17 Conclusion and Resources
Recommended Resources
- Join Adelle’s mailing list or buy her card decks: https://www.neurodivergentally.com/
- Adelle on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/neurodivergent_ally/
- Student Stress Investigation card deck (Tiffany Westphal) https://www.studentstressinvestigation.com.au/
- Dr Dan Siegel’s Hand Model of the Brain - https://drdansiegel.com/hand-model-of-the-brain/
- School Can’t Australia Facebook Community - https://www.facebook.com/groups/schoolphobiaschoolrefusalaustralia
- Make a donation to School Can’t Australia - https://www.schoolcantaustralia.com.au/get-involved
If you are a parent of carer in Australia and experiencing distress, please call Lifeline on 13 11 14 or contact the Parent Help Line. - https://kidshelpline.com.au/parents/issues/how-parentline-can-help-you
You can contact us to volunteer to share your School Can't story or some feedback via email on schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com
Disclaimer
The content of this podcast is based on personal lived experiences and is shared for informational and storytelling purposes only. It should not be treated as medical, psychological, or professional advice under any circumstances. If you have concerns about your health or well-being, please seek guidance from a doctor, therapist, or other qualified professional.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leisa Reichelt (00:05):
Hello and welcome to the School Can't
Experience Podcast.
I'm Leisa Reichelt, and thispodcast is brought to you by the
School Can't Australiacommunity.
Caring for a young person who'sstruggling to attend School can
be a really stressful andisolating experience but you are
not alone.
Thousands of parents acrossAustralia and many more around
the world face similarchallenges and experiences every
(00:26):
day.
Today our guest is AdelleSushames.
Adelle is a clinicalpsychologist based in the wilds
of Tasmania, who's probably bestknown for creating a range of
card decks including the SpoonThieves, the Spoon Savers, and
ND Me.
I really wanted to talk toAdelle about her wonderful card
decks, but I also wanted to talkabout why communication with our
(00:47):
School Can't kids can sometimesbe so hard And why using tools
like cards can sometimes reallytransform our ability to share
information.
Adelle, thank you so much forjoining us today to, share some
of your knowledge and wisdom.
I wonder if we can get startedwith you just telling us a
little bit about yourself?
Adelle Sushames (01:07):
Sure.
Thanks Leisa.
So my name is Adelle Sushamesand I'm a clinical psychologist
based in Tasmania.
I have a solo private practicewhere I primarily do autism and
ADHD assessments for all ages.
And then I have a smalltherapeutic caseload, and
outside of that, I run a secondbusiness called Neurodivergent
Ally, where I sell card decksfocused on giving autistic
(01:30):
individuals and ADHDers a way tocommunicate, think about,
discuss the things that aredifficult for them and what
accommodations and supportsmight be helpful for them, as
well as just getting a bitbetter understanding and
affirming way of describingtheir experiences are and what
its like to be autistic, ADHD orAuDHD.
I have two kids and there isn'tanyone in our household who is
(01:55):
allistic or neurotypical.
We all have some flavor of beingneurodivergent, and that's not
really something that Idiscovered fully until probably
around five years ago, becauseyou know that really common
experience of having a child whois starting to struggle more in
the school environment, leadingto exploration of that and
(02:18):
diagnosis and then looking atthe next child through a
different lens, and thenstarting to look at yourselves
as parents through that new lensas well and having lots of aha
moments.
But for me, I think that wasalso compounded through
primarily working with thispopulation clinically, just
having so many people sitting inthe chair opposite me,
describing their own internalexperiences, and me thinking,
(02:42):
well, I do that and that's truefor me as well.
taking that real, change ofperspective from looking at
particularly autism through adeficit, disorder lens and
seeing Seeing it as the DSMdescribed it to actually
realizing that it's far morevast and broad than that, and
very nuanced and that a lot ofwhat autistic women in
(03:04):
particular experience looks verydifferent and feels very
different to how it might bedescribed clinically and in
those more medically focusedtexts and learning resources.
Leisa Reichelt (03:14):
Adelle, I feel like I hear lots of people who
are clinical psychologists whodiscover their neurodivergence
years after they've done theirtraining.
Is that basically theexplanation of it?
That the training that you get,the academic training that you
get as the deficit model doesn'tgive you an insight into how it
shows up differently in womenand, other people.
(03:38):
And it's not until you get thatreal lived experience of
clinical practice that you cansee that it's broader than how
it's taught.
Adelle Sushames (03:46):
Look, I can recall learning about autism and
ADHD as part of a unit in mymaster's that was called
Neurodevelopmental Disorders inChildhood and Adolescence.
So it didn't include adulthood,everything stops once you get to
16 or 18 apparently.
It wasn't really explored ortaught around what happens in
adulthood.
(04:06):
My understanding, even onfinishing my masters, was that
most ADHDers stopped beingprescribed ADHD medication once
they leave high school becausethey, you know, airquotes,'don't
need it anymore'.
We know from speaking to manypeople about their lived
experience that in fact they dostill need it, forevermore
because it, you know, has such ahuge impact on functioning.
(04:28):
But yeah, definitely true to saythat what we're taught and then
what we're go on to learn laterand experience through clinical
experience and taking onboardperspectives of lived experience
within the communities seems tome at least to be so much more
impactful.
And I think that that deficit,that pathologizing focus model
really feeds into that becausewe're essentially taught as
(04:52):
trainee psychologists and alliedhealth professionals that
autistic people can't function.
ADHDers can't function, sotherefore you can't be one
because you did university andyou did well at university and
you've been successful in yourcareer.
So there's all that, kind ofhidden ableism and bias in what
we're taught, which takes areally long time to unravel, for
(05:15):
many of us.
And I think, you know, there'sa, for all of us that have got
to that point, there are many,many other psychologists and
allied health professionals thatstill rigidly adhere to what
they were taught
Leisa Reichelt (05:25):
oh yeah, I was gonna say it's so dependent on
you having that open-mindednessand curiosity to it I think we
all probably have experienced,there are plenty of people who
don't have that, unfortunately.
Yeah.
Interesting.
That was a little bit my specialinterest of the deficits in the
training in psychology at themoment.
I think hopefully it'simproving.
(05:45):
Fingers crossed.
Adelle Sushames (05:46):
I think it is, slowly improving the impression
I get from various online forumsfor psychologists, which
include, trainee psychologists,provisional psychologists, those
that are still completing theirstudies while working in a
similar field or being part ofthese forums because they wanna
hit the ground running.
It does suggest that there arequite a few openly autistic or
(06:08):
ADHD psychology students thatare actually starting to
question the way that things arebeing taught and making
suggestions to the universities,which is really amazing.
Leisa Reichelt (06:18):
Well, Adelle, I first came across you via the
Spoon Thieves cards that you'vedeveloped because my son's
psychologist used them with himto try to open up communication
and help him articulate what wasgoing on with him.
In doing that, we were able touncover information about
(06:38):
sensory challenges that he washaving, that I had absolutely no
idea about.
Not in all of his 14 yearsprior, had I really heard him
say any of this stuff before,and it really kind of blew my
mind.
To think about the power ofthose nonverbal ways to
communicate and to elicitinformation and understanding
(06:58):
from our kids.
And I know so many parents whohave School Can't kids find
themselves in a situation wherethey desperately want to
understand what's going on sothat they can find ways to help
address that and support thatand, you know, try and solve
those problems or find differentways of, of their kids moving
through the world, understandingthose problems.
(07:19):
But so often you ask questionsand you just get I don't know,
or you get silence or you getshrug.
And so it can be like you very,very stressful to think how do
we move forward when this childcan't, won't, tell me what's
going on.
So I, that's what I wanted tofocus on with you today.
What are some of the reasonsthat communication fails to
(07:43):
happen?
Adelle Sushames (07:43):
I think there are quite a few things that
contribute to that, and itvaries person by person, but I'm
pretty sure you're aware of DanSiegel's hand model of the brain
and the upstairs brain and thedownstairs brain and how the two
interact and communicate when weare feeling safe and calm or
regulated.
Even in those circumstances,many kids who are autistic in
(08:03):
particular will havecommunication difficulties, so
they're already on the back footas far as communication is
concerned.
Then if they are dysregulated,one of the first things to go
offline is their verbalcommunication skills, so that's
their receptive as well as theirexpressive language The other
thing that can make it even moredifficult is that often, the
(08:25):
topics that we're wanting tocommunicate with kids about are
things that they feel ashamed,feel bad.
They feel, as though they'vedone something wrong or are
doing something wrong, or we'reupset or angry with them, and
that can shut down communicationvery quickly.
Leisa Reichelt (08:41):
So let's say child isn't going to school.
We don't really know why.
There's no obvious reason thatwe can identify that we can go
in and solve to make it easierfor them to go to school.
What are some of the things thatwe should be thinking about or
doing to create conditions whereour children, our young people,
(09:03):
might be able to tell us alittle bit more?
Adelle Sushames (09:07):
I think when a child is dysregulated or having
a significant problem that'songoing or chronic in nature, we
need to look at connection as ameans to recovery first, because
no amount of problem solving isgoing to hit the mark when
somebody just doesn't feel rightin themselves, they're in
(09:28):
burnout, or they're highlystressed about a particular
expectation or environment.
So starting with trying toconnect with them, trying to be
present with them, trying torespond in order to provide
co-regulation is, from myperspective, the primary goal.
Because it really doesn't matterwhat the underlying cause,
reason, message,miscommunication might be until
(09:52):
we can get them to a place wherethey're able to feel that being
back at school under particularcircumstances which are
improved.
That problem solving is actuallyrelevant.
Leisa Reichelt (10:02):
What are the kinds of things that parents are
doing when they're trying tocreate connection?
Adelle Sushames (10:07):
I think for a start, a big one is reducing
demands and expectations andjust giving time and space..
Most kids who are at the pointwhere they're not able to attend
school regularly or not able toattend school at all but there's
still that ongoing pressure andexpectation that they get up and
they try and you get them there.
Those kids and teens are gonnaneed a break first.
(10:29):
But it's not a break if there isthis ongoing question, when will
you be ready?
How about we try today?
What are we gonna do next week?
How about we go and do thisactivity?
Like it's still very demandheavy and not allowing their
nervous system to fully havethat recovery that is needed.
Leisa Reichelt (10:46):
So just to make sure that I understand what
you're saying, if you've got achild and they're starting to
become really resistant toattending school, something that
a parent should be consideringin order to create conditions
that the child feels they cantell them more about what's
going on is to give them a breakfrom school to stop continually
trying to get them in.
Adelle Sushames (11:06):
If you're really at the beginning and just
starting to see a little bit ofhesitance about going to school
then if they're in a space to beable to communicate, then why
would we not do that but justnot expecting that that's going
to be automatically successful.
Leisa Reichelt (11:20):
it sounds as though you're advocating for a
much softer approach rather thana strict, hold the boundaries,
keep the guidelines in place, bea little bit more accommodating
to the difficulties that thechild is experiencing.
Adelle Sushames (11:35):
Absolutely, Yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (11:36):
All right so, if I wanna sit down and have a
conversation with my child aboutwhat's going on at school, I
know in the olden days, the mostlikely time that we would start
these conversations would beabout 11 o'clock at night when
my son's refusing to go to bedand he's really upset.
I'm just trying to go, why don'tyou wanna go?
(11:56):
What are you worried about?
You know, how can I fix it sothat you can get to sleep so
that you can get up in themorning and go to school the
next day?
I think probably that wasn't atextbook approach to
communication with my child.
What should I have been doinginstead?
Adelle Sushames (12:14):
Look, I don't think there's a single right
answer or approach to that, butI think if a child's unable to
sleep because of anticipatoryanxiety about what's coming the
day ahead.
Taking off all pressure aroundthat so that they know you
communicate to them thatdecisions around what happens
tomorrow can be made tomorrow.
(12:35):
So that they're able to, feelregulated enough that their body
can actually rest and sleep,
Leisa Reichelt (12:43):
And I think the other thing that I found was
really important was just, totry to get into these
conversations when we were bothreasonably calm at the beginning
didn't always work because quiteoften, as soon as I tried to.
Start a conversation, he wouldcompletely spin out'cause he
didn't wanna talk about it atall.
If we were both upregulated atthe beginning of the
conversation, it was, yeah.
(13:04):
The door was gonna get slammedin my face pretty fast,
literally as well asmetaphorically sometimes.
Adelle Sushames (13:10):
Yeah.
And I think, these conversationsdon't have to be done the
traditional way, face to faceteenagers are great at texting.
They can send you a note spaceand thinking time to come back
on their own terms when they'reready, when they're able to
think about it.
Often verbal conversationsreally have a sense of being put
on the spot to answer, and youmight not have had the chance to
(13:31):
think through or to regulateyour emotions
Leisa Reichelt (13:34):
yeah.
I think that's a really goodobservation.
Sometimes I have written notesto my son and I'll put them
underneath the door that's justbeen slammed, and, he'll pick
them up, read them, and thentear them to shreds.
But at least I think he's readthem most of the time and, it's
more than I would get if I wastrying to talk to him your point
about looking to nonverbal formsof communication is really
(13:58):
important seeing thepsychologist use the cards with
my son opened my mind to thefact that there were all of
these different non-verbal waysthat were really helpful.
Can you tell us a little bitabout like the, the origin story
of the cards?
What have you made and, how havethey been useful in the work
that you've been doing?
Adelle Sushames (14:15):
Yeah, for sure.
I was just looking for aresource that I could use
primarily with kids and teensthat would very broadly look at
the things that are challengingor take up most of their energy
or that they just simply can'tdo without support or
assistance.
I was searching online to tryand find something specific to
that nature and I couldn't findanything.
(14:38):
So just concluded eventuallythat I would make my own.
That was on the first deck,which was called Spoon Thieves.
In recognition of Spoon Theory,that tells us that you have
finite resources available toyou basically, and puts this
added level of awareness intothe, the fact that we don't as
(15:01):
neurodivergent people have asmany resources available to us
or as much energy, as muchcoping capacity.
Things that neurotypical peoplecan do with ease, cost us more
spoons, more energy.
And so they were called SpoonThieves.
From that came the idea of doinga companion deck about the Spoon
Savers.
What are the things that saveenergy?
(15:21):
What are the things that help usfeel supported and accommodated
in different environments?
What are the ways that we andothers can do things differently
that actually fits our neurotypeand our needs?
Leisa Reichelt (15:31):
Let's dig into those a little bit more, So
Thieves cards were the ones thatI came across first.
Can you talk a little bit aboutwhat kinds of things are on the
cards?
And then how does a psychologistuse it with a young person?
Adelle Sushames (15:43):
Sure.
So Spoon Thieves has 60different cards, each of those
cards represents a differentaspect of daily life and
activity a characteristic, Isuppose of being autistic or
ADHD, that makes things morechallenging.
Throughout the deck, I triedreally hard to use affirming
language, which doesn't alwaysmean necessarily positive
(16:04):
language, I'm never going to saybeing autistic or ADHD is a
superpower and we have all ofthese amazing superhuman skills.
That's not the way that I viewthings, but if I can't be
affirming and positive about it,I'll be realistic and factual
use language that's accepting ofthe reality, but not in any
deficit.
The word deficit does notappear.
(16:25):
The word disorder does notappear, the word problems does
not appear.
Because they all suggest, thatneeds to be corrected or should
be corrected
Leisa Reichelt (16:31):
are there one or two that are some of your
favorites that you can remember?
Adelle Sushames (16:35):
Oh, So I think there are definitely some that
are more obvious as to whichneurotype they might belong to,
such as, when there's a changeto my routine or holding in
stims or, talking about andexpressing emotions.
But then there are some thingsthat can be difficult for both
autistic people and ADHDers likegoing along to appointments or
having to sit still, or auniform, whether that's a school
(16:58):
uniform or a work uniform.
And then I think, for adults aswell, and teenagers in
particular who are very aware oftheir neurotype and their needs,
there's a card that talks abouteducating others.
It's a really taxing task tohave to continually explain to
others that you or your child orwhoever is autistic or adhd,
(17:19):
that actually means.
No, it doesn't necessarily meanthis stereotype that they've got
in their mind and these aretheir needs and these are how we
are.
Like, it's a full-time job justto get everybody on the same
page.
And I think sometimes when we'retrying to have these
conversations with others,that's another reason why you
get that shut down or I don'tknow, because it's too hard.
So we're just not going tostart.
Leisa Reichelt (17:40):
Well, the other thing my son would say is that
I've tried to tell people lotsof times and nobody's ever
listened, so why should Ibother?
Adelle Sushames (17:47):
Yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (17:48):
Yeah,
Adelle Sushames (17:49):
is hard and whether or not the other person
has not only.
Leisa Reichelt (17:55):
I know they get dismissed so often, don't they?
So you've got these 60 cards,they've got all of these
different kinds of things onthem that can take energy from
our kids in differentenvironments that they're in.
Particularly the schoolenvironment perhaps.
And then what, so what do theydo with the cards?
Adelle Sushames (18:13):
So with the cards, the way that I've used
them clinically with a child ora teen, we'll both sit on the
floor and we'll spread them allout so that we can see all of
them at once.
If they've not come across spoontheory, then I give them an
explanation of that, and Iliterally have a set of, you
know, the little, silverteaspoons that have the pictures
on them from different towns ordifferent Just in keeping with
(18:36):
the original spoon theory abouthaving 12 spoons.
So I'll give them the twelvespoons and say, this is all of
your energy for the day.
Show me where it goes.
And so they'll be putting aspoon on a card.
I've had some beautiful momentswith teenagers in particular
around self-compassion when theyhave realized that they
literally cannot do all of thosethings because their spoons are
(19:00):
used up and it's not somethingthat's wrong with them or
something that they need to tryharder to do.
It's just, this is how theirbody is and what their minds and
bodies are capable of doing.
So much acceptance around thatthat wasn't there previously.
They felt bad about this.
They had some shame around this.
And so I think that's beenreally impactful and nice to be
(19:21):
able to see that.
The other thing that has beenamazing with kids and young
people in particular, isbringing a parent into the room
and having them see how theirchild has communicated and what
the main messages are that wetake from that.
And so many a-ha! moments aroundoh, that's why after they've had
to do this particular part ofthe routine in the morning.
That's why getting in the carafter that is so much harder
(19:41):
because they've got nothing leftfor that transition, because
they've just had the sensoryhell of brushing their teeth or
putting their school shoes on orwhatever it might be.
Leisa Reichelt (19:51):
Yeah, that's the exercise that my son did with
his psychologist.
She got him to do the threepiles of this doesn't bother me.
This bothers me a bit.
This bothers me a lot.
I came into the sessionafterwards and they're like, oh,
have a look at this.
And there was a big pile of,doesn't bother me at all.
There was a big pile of, bothersme a bit and there was one card
in the bothers me a lot.
And the bothers me a lot one wasabout smell.
(20:13):
That was not on my radar at all.
To the best of my knowledge,he'd never communicated to me
how much this bothered him.
I think because he alwaysthought that it was just
something that everybody dealtwith and they all were dealing
with exactly the same experiencehe was dealing with.
And we just didn't complainabout it.
So he didn't complain about it.
It's hard to change the smellsof the world, but he talked
(20:34):
particularly about, getting inthe car and going on a car trip
some people in my family may ormay not have had slightly
smellier shoes than others.
This was a big deal for him.
He didn't wanna get in the carand go anywhere because of the
smelly shoe situation.
It's like, well, we can actuallydo something about that.
So that was good.
It just woke me up to the factthat there's probably so much
going on that I'm unaware of.
(20:54):
And for him it was, I think,such an affirming experience to
go.
All of these things are thingsthat take energy.
You know, look, they're here onthe card.
This proves that this is like anenergy sucker.
I think that was reallyvalidating for him.
And then understanding that kindof energy economy and the fact
that there's only so much andthat, if things cost you more,
(21:16):
then of course you're gonna runout faster than other people.
I don't think that anybody couldhave sat down and talked him
through that and conveyed thatsame understanding to him as he
had, through the validation ofthe cards with the information.
And, I would've not had thatknowledge either if he'd have
(21:37):
not had that process of takingthose things and then working
with them the way that he did.
And so then the flip side ofthat are the, what are they?
Can you talk me through those alittle bit?
Adelle Sushames (21:46):
So, Spoon Savers, again has 60 cards in,
and it is for everything thattakes energy, we want an option
that helps to replenish it orprevent it from being taken in
the first place.
And in the same vein as usingthe Spoon Thieves deck, I
wouldn't expect every card toresonate with every person.
And depending on the person'sage and what's happening in
(22:08):
their world, I might even,selectively take out a subset of
the cards because they're notrelevant
Leisa Reichelt (22:13):
I was gonna say, you're gonna take, go and have a
glass of wine out for theteenagers.
Adelle Sushames (22:16):
Yeah, that's not in there surprisingly.
Yeah.
So the Spoon Savers has a wholerange of different
accommodations and ways of doingthings differently.
And some of them might match upwith a Spoon Thief card, so
there might be, you know, takeoff socks and shoes as something
that kids can do at school iftheir uniform is bothering them.
Whereas some of the other, SpoonSavers, are not necessarily
(22:37):
matched up to a Spoon Thiefcard.
They're just things that canhelp regardless, like having
time outside, having time ontechnology, having time doing
special interest focused things,being able to access support to
communicate to others.
So there's a whole bunch ofthings in the cards, but the
overarching goal is to make lifeeasier and to help this person
(23:00):
communicate to others and forothers understand what are some
of the tweaks and adjustmentsand modifications that can be
made.
Not any single one of them arehuge.
But when you start adding themup, the cumulative impact can be
huge.
So why would we not wanna dothat?
Leisa Reichelt (23:15):
Yeah, and I guess it validates the young
person's, desire to do some ofthose things as being like, this
is something that's helping tobuild me back up.
It's not I'm addicted to ascreen or hiding away from
reality reading novels, it'slike literally, this is helping
me to sort of build back upagain.
And, yeah, it's not something tobe ashamed of.
It's something to think of as atool.
(23:36):
And then there's also the ND Me.
Adelle Sushames (23:39):
Yeah, that was the third one, that I brought
out, and that was just abouthaving a set of terms and
phrases to use in place of thetypes of terms and phrases that
we typically see in the DSM andin the more formal texts about
autism and ADHD.
So all of the different traitsbasically that I could think of
in there.
And there're things that youwould find in the DSM, but
(24:00):
worded in more affirminglanguage, but also things that
are the, I guess, moreinternalized high masking
presentations you'll see in latediagnosed adults.
You can see how they fit withinthe criteria, but they're not so
immediately obvious.
They're not part of thestereotype necessarily, but
they're things that I've heardtime and time again and have
(24:22):
experienced and have seen mychildren experience.
Putting that out there as anobjective thing for others to
see and recognise just feltreally important.
Leisa Reichelt (24:32):
One of the reasons that I wanted to share
this is that, A, you've createdthese wonderful resources.
B, I think there's something inthat methodology of like writing
down a whole range of potentialoptions.
Putting them in front of peopleand saying what resonates, what
doesn't resonate?
The validation that comes fromthose range of options being
(24:57):
realistic, valid, acceptable.
As well as that different way ofbeing able to manage information
and communicate information issomething that I've applied with
my kid.
We were coming up to somethingthat was potentially gonna be
really challenging for him and Iwas worried about how he was
feeling emotionally about it.
So I made a whole stack ofemotion cards just on cut up
(25:19):
paper and, asked him to pull outthe ones that he was feeling and
the ones that he wasn't in thatexample, he just told me he was
feeling fine and didn't need todo this, but thanks.
But also, you know, yeah.
You know, we got it opened up.
The communication.
He didn't wanna do the cards,but, sometimes it's easier to
have different dinner options.
He picks one or two that hewould find acceptable.
(25:40):
That's way easier for himsometimes than for me to go,
what would you like for dinner?
Or even, would you like this orthat?
Pointing at a thing on a bit ofpaper is often just such a
easier way to get thatcommunication going.
Yeah, I know that there's a lotof very creative people who
listen to this who will takethis as a concept, I'm sure, and
go, oh, here's all the differentways that I could use that.
(26:01):
Or when we find ourselves in asituation where we're just like,
why can't I get this child totell me what's going on?
This might just be another wayto take out some of the shame,
validate a whole range ofdifferent things that might be
going on, and reduce theintensity of that communication
that we're asking from thempotentially.
Adelle Sushames (26:22):
Yeah.
And look, I think there's nolimit to what parents can
achieve when they are ready andaware and very motivated to
support their child.
We can make our own visualsupports, we can make our own
sensory, tools and resources.
We're very strong at advocatingfor our kids.
(26:42):
And I think that tne next areato focus on for me is getting
schools more on board.
Something that private practicehas taught me over the years is
that you can do all the verybest work with your clients and
with their families, but if theythen go out into the real world
and those supports fall flat orare resisted or rejected.
(27:03):
It's so damaging anddisheartening for everybody.
I put out the Spoons at Schoolcards because I wanted the
schools to have a resource tohelp the kids communicate what
they needed.
For schools to be able tovisibly see it on the table or
on the floor in front of them sothat when they're planning
learning plans or looking at howtheir classrooms are set up or
(27:24):
when they're looking at how toconfigure and, run their sports
days and special events, theyhave it all right there in front
of them and they know.
Leisa Reichelt (27:31):
What's your vision for how the Spoons at
School cards would be used inthe school context?
Adelle Sushames (27:36):
I have no specific instruction but I've
had amazing, emails and messagesfrom teachers and others using
the cards in creative ways.
It's just giving kids a voicereally.
Leisa Reichelt (27:48):
do you have an example of one of the stories
that's been shared to you by ateacher in school that you'd be
able to share with us?
Adelle Sushames (27:54):
yeah, there was a teacher in, I think a year
four or five class, and she'dused the Spoon Thieves and the
Spoon Savers as an activity onthe very first day, back to
school after lunch, she had aboy approach and say, I've got
no spoons left.
Can I have some time to go anddo this activity and she was
just floored because thatparticular child wasn't even on,
(28:14):
on the list of students whomight need accommodations and
supports, but they were able touse it.
Leisa Reichelt (28:19):
So she'd got the whole class to do
Adelle Sushames (28:21):
to
Leisa Reichelt (28:21):
the exercise.
Adelle Sushames (28:23):
Yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (28:23):
Wow.
That's pretty amazing, isn't it?
Because I guess everybody isimpacted, aren't they?
By things that draw their energyand things that build their
energy back up again.
Adelle Sushames (28:32):
Yeah, I mean, I'd see them being used at
teacher PD days without thestudents even present because I
think there's so much learningthat could be had and just
discussions from doingactivities with the cards around
what their needs are asteachers, because surprise,
there are neuro divergentteachers, plenty,
Leisa Reichelt (28:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Adelle Sushames (28:49):
Either need accommodations or have come to
develop their own ways ofworking that allow their needs
to be accommodated.
Leisa Reichelt (28:56):
Yeah.
Adelle Sushames (28:56):
I think those ones in particular are gonna be
our strongest advocates forAuDHD kids moving forward in
schools, but just for all of theteachers and TAs to have more
tools in their kit and moreunderstanding and awareness of
how they might, come togetherwhen they're supporting our
young people.
Leisa Reichelt (29:16):
Sounds wonderful.
Okay, well if people do wannafind out more about the cards
that you've created or, followyour social media channels
where's the best place to findout more?
Adelle Sushames (29:26):
well you can find my social media.
neurodivergent, I think it'sAlly the handle to search up.
Other than that, you can take alook at my website, which is
neurodivergentally.com, and Ihave an email list that goes out
most weeks.
Leisa Reichelt (29:40):
Well thank you so much for taking this time,
Adelle.
I really appreciate it.
It's been great to talk to youtoday.
Well, I hope you're feeling alittle more inspired with some
ways that we might be able tounblock communications with our
School Can't kids.
We talked about Adelle's greatcard decks today, but I did also
wanna give a shout out to SchoolCan't Australia's very own
Tiffany Westphall, who has alsoproduced a card set called the
(30:01):
Student Stress Investigationthat you also might wanna
checkout.
Now at the risk of sounding likea complete YouTuber.
If you have found this episodehelpful, please do take a moment
to subscribe to our podcast.
Maybe even give us a rating or areview.
It really does help us to getthis podcast in front of more
people who have School Can'tkids, and have not yet found our
community and the informationthat we can share.
(30:23):
You can find links to Adelle'sinformation in the episode
notes, as well as some helpfulSchool Can't Australia links.
Do you have some feedback forus?
Maybe you'd like to share yourown school current lived
experience.
You can drop us an email toschoolcantpodcast@gmail.com And
finally, if you are a parent orcarer in Australia and you are
feeling distressed, pleaseremember you can always call the
(30:45):
Parent Helpline in your state.
A link with the number to callis in the episode notes.
Thank you so much for listening,and we will talk again soon.
Take care.
Hello and welcome to the School Can't
Experience Podcast.
I'm Leisa Reichelt, and thispodcast is brought to you by the
School Can't Australiacommunity.
Caring for a young person who'sstruggling to attend School can
be a really stressful andisolating experience but you are
not alone.
Thousands of parents acrossAustralia and many more around
the world face similarchallenges and experiences every
(00:26):
day.
Today our guest is AdelleSushames.
Adelle is a clinicalpsychologist based in the wilds
of Tasmania, who's probably bestknown for creating a range of
card decks including the SpoonThieves, the Spoon Savers, and
ND Me.
I really wanted to talk toAdelle about her wonderful card
decks, but I also wanted to talkabout why communication with our
(00:47):
School Can't kids can sometimesbe so hard And why using tools
like cards can sometimes reallytransform our ability to share
information.
Adelle, thank you so much forjoining us today to, share some
of your knowledge and wisdom.
I wonder if we can get startedwith you just telling us a
little bit about yourself?
Adelle Sushames (01:07):
Sure.
Thanks Leisa.
So my name is Adelle Sushamesand I'm a clinical psychologist
based in Tasmania.
I have a solo private practicewhere I primarily do autism and
ADHD assessments for all ages.
And then I have a smalltherapeutic caseload, and
outside of that, I run a secondbusiness called Neurodivergent
Ally, where I sell card decksfocused on giving autistic
(01:30):
individuals and ADHDers a way tocommunicate, think about,
discuss the things that aredifficult for them and what
accommodations and supportsmight be helpful for them, as
well as just getting a bitbetter understanding and
affirming way of describingtheir experiences are and what
its like to be autistic, ADHD orAuDHD.
I have two kids and there isn'tanyone in our household who is
(01:55):
allistic or neurotypical.
We all have some flavor of beingneurodivergent, and that's not
really something that Idiscovered fully until probably
around five years ago, becauseyou know that really common
experience of having a child whois starting to struggle more in
the school environment, leadingto exploration of that and
(02:18):
diagnosis and then looking atthe next child through a
different lens, and thenstarting to look at yourselves
as parents through that new lensas well and having lots of aha
moments.
But for me, I think that wasalso compounded through
primarily working with thispopulation clinically, just
having so many people sitting inthe chair opposite me,
describing their own internalexperiences, and me thinking,
(02:42):
well, I do that and that's truefor me as well.
taking that real, change ofperspective from looking at
particularly autism through adeficit, disorder lens and
seeing Seeing it as the DSMdescribed it to actually
realizing that it's far morevast and broad than that, and
very nuanced and that a lot ofwhat autistic women in
(03:04):
particular experience looks verydifferent and feels very
different to how it might bedescribed clinically and in
those more medically focusedtexts and learning resources.
Leisa Reichelt (03:14):
Adelle, I feel like I hear lots of people who
are clinical psychologists whodiscover their neurodivergence
years after they've done theirtraining.
Is that basically theexplanation of it?
That the training that you get,the academic training that you
get as the deficit model doesn'tgive you an insight into how it
shows up differently in womenand, other people.
(03:38):
And it's not until you get thatreal lived experience of
clinical practice that you cansee that it's broader than how
it's taught.
Adelle Sushames (03:46):
Look, I can recall learning about autism and
ADHD as part of a unit in mymaster's that was called
Neurodevelopmental Disorders inChildhood and Adolescence.
So it didn't include adulthood,everything stops once you get to
16 or 18 apparently.
It wasn't really explored ortaught around what happens in
adulthood.
(04:06):
My understanding, even onfinishing my masters, was that
most ADHDers stopped beingprescribed ADHD medication once
they leave high school becausethey, you know, airquotes,'don't
need it anymore'.
We know from speaking to manypeople about their lived
experience that in fact they dostill need it, forevermore
because it, you know, has such ahuge impact on functioning.
(04:28):
But yeah, definitely true to saythat what we're taught and then
what we're go on to learn laterand experience through clinical
experience and taking onboardperspectives of lived experience
within the communities seems tome at least to be so much more
impactful.
And I think that that deficit,that pathologizing focus model
really feeds into that becausewe're essentially taught as
(04:52):
trainee psychologists and alliedhealth professionals that
autistic people can't function.
ADHDers can't function, sotherefore you can't be one
because you did university andyou did well at university and
you've been successful in yourcareer.
So there's all that, kind ofhidden ableism and bias in what
we're taught, which takes areally long time to unravel, for
(05:15):
many of us.
And I think, you know, there'sa, for all of us that have got
to that point, there are many,many other psychologists and
allied health professionals thatstill rigidly adhere to what
they were taught
Leisa Reichelt (05:25):
oh yeah, I was gonna say it's so dependent on
you having that open-mindednessand curiosity to it I think we
all probably have experienced,there are plenty of people who
don't have that, unfortunately.
Yeah.
Interesting.
That was a little bit my specialinterest of the deficits in the
training in psychology at themoment.
I think hopefully it'simproving.
(05:45):
Fingers crossed.
Adelle Sushames (05:46):
I think it is, slowly improving the impression
I get from various online forumsfor psychologists, which
include, trainee psychologists,provisional psychologists, those
that are still completing theirstudies while working in a
similar field or being part ofthese forums because they wanna
hit the ground running.
It does suggest that there arequite a few openly autistic or
(06:08):
ADHD psychology students thatare actually starting to
question the way that things arebeing taught and making
suggestions to the universities,which is really amazing.
Leisa Reichelt (06:18):
Well, Adelle, I first came across you via the
Spoon Thieves cards that you'vedeveloped because my son's
psychologist used them with himto try to open up communication
and help him articulate what wasgoing on with him.
In doing that, we were able touncover information about
(06:38):
sensory challenges that he washaving, that I had absolutely no
idea about.
Not in all of his 14 yearsprior, had I really heard him
say any of this stuff before,and it really kind of blew my
mind.
To think about the power ofthose nonverbal ways to
communicate and to elicitinformation and understanding
(06:58):
from our kids.
And I know so many parents whohave School Can't kids find
themselves in a situation wherethey desperately want to
understand what's going on sothat they can find ways to help
address that and support thatand, you know, try and solve
those problems or find differentways of, of their kids moving
through the world, understandingthose problems.
(07:19):
But so often you ask questionsand you just get I don't know,
or you get silence or you getshrug.
And so it can be like you very,very stressful to think how do
we move forward when this childcan't, won't, tell me what's
going on.
So I, that's what I wanted tofocus on with you today.
What are some of the reasonsthat communication fails to
(07:43):
happen?
Adelle Sushames (07:43):
I think there are quite a few things that
contribute to that, and itvaries person by person, but I'm
pretty sure you're aware of DanSiegel's hand model of the brain
and the upstairs brain and thedownstairs brain and how the two
interact and communicate when weare feeling safe and calm or
regulated.
Even in those circumstances,many kids who are autistic in
(08:03):
particular will havecommunication difficulties, so
they're already on the back footas far as communication is
concerned.
Then if they are dysregulated,one of the first things to go
offline is their verbalcommunication skills, so that's
their receptive as well as theirexpressive language The other
thing that can make it even moredifficult is that often, the
(08:25):
topics that we're wanting tocommunicate with kids about are
things that they feel ashamed,feel bad.
They feel, as though they'vedone something wrong or are
doing something wrong, or we'reupset or angry with them, and
that can shut down communicationvery quickly.
Leisa Reichelt (08:41):
So let's say child isn't going to school.
We don't really know why.
There's no obvious reason thatwe can identify that we can go
in and solve to make it easierfor them to go to school.
What are some of the things thatwe should be thinking about or
doing to create conditions whereour children, our young people,
(09:03):
might be able to tell us alittle bit more?
Adelle Sushames (09:07):
I think when a child is dysregulated or having
a significant problem that'songoing or chronic in nature, we
need to look at connection as ameans to recovery first, because
no amount of problem solving isgoing to hit the mark when
somebody just doesn't feel rightin themselves, they're in
(09:28):
burnout, or they're highlystressed about a particular
expectation or environment.
So starting with trying toconnect with them, trying to be
present with them, trying torespond in order to provide
co-regulation is, from myperspective, the primary goal.
Because it really doesn't matterwhat the underlying cause,
reason, message,miscommunication might be until
(09:52):
we can get them to a place wherethey're able to feel that being
back at school under particularcircumstances which are
improved.
That problem solving is actuallyrelevant.
Leisa Reichelt (10:02):
What are the kinds of things that parents are
doing when they're trying tocreate connection?
Adelle Sushames (10:07):
I think for a start, a big one is reducing
demands and expectations andjust giving time and space..
Most kids who are at the pointwhere they're not able to attend
school regularly or not able toattend school at all but there's
still that ongoing pressure andexpectation that they get up and
they try and you get them there.
Those kids and teens are gonnaneed a break first.
(10:29):
But it's not a break if there isthis ongoing question, when will
you be ready?
How about we try today?
What are we gonna do next week?
How about we go and do thisactivity?
Like it's still very demandheavy and not allowing their
nervous system to fully havethat recovery that is needed.
Leisa Reichelt (10:46):
So just to make sure that I understand what
you're saying, if you've got achild and they're starting to
become really resistant toattending school, something that
a parent should be consideringin order to create conditions
that the child feels they cantell them more about what's
going on is to give them a breakfrom school to stop continually
trying to get them in.
Adelle Sushames (11:06):
If you're really at the beginning and just
starting to see a little bit ofhesitance about going to school
then if they're in a space to beable to communicate, then why
would we not do that but justnot expecting that that's going
to be automatically successful.
Leisa Reichelt (11:20):
it sounds as though you're advocating for a
much softer approach rather thana strict, hold the boundaries,
keep the guidelines in place, bea little bit more accommodating
to the difficulties that thechild is experiencing.
Adelle Sushames (11:35):
Absolutely, Yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (11:36):
All right so, if I wanna sit down and have a
conversation with my child aboutwhat's going on at school, I
know in the olden days, the mostlikely time that we would start
these conversations would beabout 11 o'clock at night when
my son's refusing to go to bedand he's really upset.
I'm just trying to go, why don'tyou wanna go?
(11:56):
What are you worried about?
You know, how can I fix it sothat you can get to sleep so
that you can get up in themorning and go to school the
next day?
I think probably that wasn't atextbook approach to
communication with my child.
What should I have been doinginstead?
Adelle Sushames (12:14):
Look, I don't think there's a single right
answer or approach to that, butI think if a child's unable to
sleep because of anticipatoryanxiety about what's coming the
day ahead.
Taking off all pressure aroundthat so that they know you
communicate to them thatdecisions around what happens
tomorrow can be made tomorrow.
(12:35):
So that they're able to, feelregulated enough that their body
can actually rest and sleep,
Leisa Reichelt (12:43):
And I think the other thing that I found was
really important was just, totry to get into these
conversations when we were bothreasonably calm at the beginning
didn't always work because quiteoften, as soon as I tried to.
Start a conversation, he wouldcompletely spin out'cause he
didn't wanna talk about it atall.
If we were both upregulated atthe beginning of the
conversation, it was, yeah.
(13:04):
The door was gonna get slammedin my face pretty fast,
literally as well asmetaphorically sometimes.
Adelle Sushames (13:10):
Yeah.
And I think, these conversationsdon't have to be done the
traditional way, face to faceteenagers are great at texting.
They can send you a note spaceand thinking time to come back
on their own terms when they'reready, when they're able to
think about it.
Often verbal conversationsreally have a sense of being put
on the spot to answer, and youmight not have had the chance to
(13:31):
think through or to regulateyour emotions
Leisa Reichelt (13:34):
yeah.
I think that's a really goodobservation.
Sometimes I have written notesto my son and I'll put them
underneath the door that's justbeen slammed, and, he'll pick
them up, read them, and thentear them to shreds.
But at least I think he's readthem most of the time and, it's
more than I would get if I wastrying to talk to him your point
about looking to nonverbal formsof communication is really
(13:58):
important seeing thepsychologist use the cards with
my son opened my mind to thefact that there were all of
these different non-verbal waysthat were really helpful.
Can you tell us a little bitabout like the, the origin story
of the cards?
What have you made and, how havethey been useful in the work
that you've been doing?
Adelle Sushames (14:15):
Yeah, for sure.
I was just looking for aresource that I could use
primarily with kids and teensthat would very broadly look at
the things that are challengingor take up most of their energy
or that they just simply can'tdo without support or
assistance.
I was searching online to tryand find something specific to
that nature and I couldn't findanything.
(14:38):
So just concluded eventuallythat I would make my own.
That was on the first deck,which was called Spoon Thieves.
In recognition of Spoon Theory,that tells us that you have
finite resources available toyou basically, and puts this
added level of awareness intothe, the fact that we don't as
(15:01):
neurodivergent people have asmany resources available to us
or as much energy, as muchcoping capacity.
Things that neurotypical peoplecan do with ease, cost us more
spoons, more energy.
And so they were called SpoonThieves.
From that came the idea of doinga companion deck about the Spoon
Savers.
What are the things that saveenergy?
(15:21):
What are the things that help usfeel supported and accommodated
in different environments?
What are the ways that we andothers can do things differently
that actually fits our neurotypeand our needs?
Leisa Reichelt (15:31):
Let's dig into those a little bit more, So
Thieves cards were the ones thatI came across first.
Can you talk a little bit aboutwhat kinds of things are on the
cards?
And then how does a psychologistuse it with a young person?
Adelle Sushames (15:43):
Sure.
So Spoon Thieves has 60different cards, each of those
cards represents a differentaspect of daily life and
activity a characteristic, Isuppose of being autistic or
ADHD, that makes things morechallenging.
Throughout the deck, I triedreally hard to use affirming
language, which doesn't alwaysmean necessarily positive
(16:04):
language, I'm never going to saybeing autistic or ADHD is a
superpower and we have all ofthese amazing superhuman skills.
That's not the way that I viewthings, but if I can't be
affirming and positive about it,I'll be realistic and factual
use language that's accepting ofthe reality, but not in any
deficit.
The word deficit does notappear.
(16:25):
The word disorder does notappear, the word problems does
not appear.
Because they all suggest, thatneeds to be corrected or should
be corrected
Leisa Reichelt (16:31):
are there one or two that are some of your
favorites that you can remember?
Adelle Sushames (16:35):
Oh, So I think there are definitely some that
are more obvious as to whichneurotype they might belong to,
such as, when there's a changeto my routine or holding in
stims or, talking about andexpressing emotions.
But then there are some thingsthat can be difficult for both
autistic people and ADHDers likegoing along to appointments or
having to sit still, or auniform, whether that's a school
(16:58):
uniform or a work uniform.
And then I think, for adults aswell, and teenagers in
particular who are very aware oftheir neurotype and their needs,
there's a card that talks abouteducating others.
It's a really taxing task tohave to continually explain to
others that you or your child orwhoever is autistic or adhd,
(17:19):
that actually means.
No, it doesn't necessarily meanthis stereotype that they've got
in their mind and these aretheir needs and these are how we
are.
Like, it's a full-time job justto get everybody on the same
page.
And I think sometimes when we'retrying to have these
conversations with others,that's another reason why you
get that shut down or I don'tknow, because it's too hard.
So we're just not going tostart.
Leisa Reichelt (17:40):
Well, the other thing my son would say is that
I've tried to tell people lotsof times and nobody's ever
listened, so why should Ibother?
Adelle Sushames (17:47):
Yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (17:48):
Yeah,
Adelle Sushames (17:49):
is hard and whether or not the other person
has not only.
Leisa Reichelt (17:55):
I know they get dismissed so often, don't they?
So you've got these 60 cards,they've got all of these
different kinds of things onthem that can take energy from
our kids in differentenvironments that they're in.
Particularly the schoolenvironment perhaps.
And then what, so what do theydo with the cards?
Adelle Sushames (18:13):
So with the cards, the way that I've used
them clinically with a child ora teen, we'll both sit on the
floor and we'll spread them allout so that we can see all of
them at once.
If they've not come across spoontheory, then I give them an
explanation of that, and Iliterally have a set of, you
know, the little, silverteaspoons that have the pictures
on them from different towns ordifferent Just in keeping with
(18:36):
the original spoon theory abouthaving 12 spoons.
So I'll give them the twelvespoons and say, this is all of
your energy for the day.
Show me where it goes.
And so they'll be putting aspoon on a card.
I've had some beautiful momentswith teenagers in particular
around self-compassion when theyhave realized that they
literally cannot do all of thosethings because their spoons are
(19:00):
used up and it's not somethingthat's wrong with them or
something that they need to tryharder to do.
It's just, this is how theirbody is and what their minds and
bodies are capable of doing.
So much acceptance around thatthat wasn't there previously.
They felt bad about this.
They had some shame around this.
And so I think that's beenreally impactful and nice to be
(19:21):
able to see that.
The other thing that has beenamazing with kids and young
people in particular, isbringing a parent into the room
and having them see how theirchild has communicated and what
the main messages are that wetake from that.
And so many a-ha! moments aroundoh, that's why after they've had
to do this particular part ofthe routine in the morning.
That's why getting in the carafter that is so much harder
(19:41):
because they've got nothing leftfor that transition, because
they've just had the sensoryhell of brushing their teeth or
putting their school shoes on orwhatever it might be.
Leisa Reichelt (19:51):
Yeah, that's the exercise that my son did with
his psychologist.
She got him to do the threepiles of this doesn't bother me.
This bothers me a bit.
This bothers me a lot.
I came into the sessionafterwards and they're like, oh,
have a look at this.
And there was a big pile of,doesn't bother me at all.
There was a big pile of, bothersme a bit and there was one card
in the bothers me a lot.
And the bothers me a lot one wasabout smell.
(20:13):
That was not on my radar at all.
To the best of my knowledge,he'd never communicated to me
how much this bothered him.
I think because he alwaysthought that it was just
something that everybody dealtwith and they all were dealing
with exactly the same experiencehe was dealing with.
And we just didn't complainabout it.
So he didn't complain about it.
It's hard to change the smellsof the world, but he talked
(20:34):
particularly about, getting inthe car and going on a car trip
some people in my family may ormay not have had slightly
smellier shoes than others.
This was a big deal for him.
He didn't wanna get in the carand go anywhere because of the
smelly shoe situation.
It's like, well, we can actuallydo something about that.
So that was good.
It just woke me up to the factthat there's probably so much
going on that I'm unaware of.
(20:54):
And for him it was, I think,such an affirming experience to
go.
All of these things are thingsthat take energy.
You know, look, they're here onthe card.
This proves that this is like anenergy sucker.
I think that was reallyvalidating for him.
And then understanding that kindof energy economy and the fact
that there's only so much andthat, if things cost you more,
(21:16):
then of course you're gonna runout faster than other people.
I don't think that anybody couldhave sat down and talked him
through that and conveyed thatsame understanding to him as he
had, through the validation ofthe cards with the information.
And, I would've not had thatknowledge either if he'd have
(21:37):
not had that process of takingthose things and then working
with them the way that he did.
And so then the flip side ofthat are the, what are they?
Can you talk me through those alittle bit?
Adelle Sushames (21:46):
So, Spoon Savers, again has 60 cards in,
and it is for everything thattakes energy, we want an option
that helps to replenish it orprevent it from being taken in
the first place.
And in the same vein as usingthe Spoon Thieves deck, I
wouldn't expect every card toresonate with every person.
And depending on the person'sage and what's happening in
(22:08):
their world, I might even,selectively take out a subset of
the cards because they're notrelevant
Leisa Reichelt (22:13):
I was gonna say, you're gonna take, go and have a
glass of wine out for theteenagers.
Adelle Sushames (22:16):
Yeah, that's not in there surprisingly.
Yeah.
So the Spoon Savers has a wholerange of different
accommodations and ways of doingthings differently.
And some of them might match upwith a Spoon Thief card, so
there might be, you know, takeoff socks and shoes as something
that kids can do at school iftheir uniform is bothering them.
Whereas some of the other, SpoonSavers, are not necessarily
(22:37):
matched up to a Spoon Thiefcard.
They're just things that canhelp regardless, like having
time outside, having time ontechnology, having time doing
special interest focused things,being able to access support to
communicate to others.
So there's a whole bunch ofthings in the cards, but the
overarching goal is to make lifeeasier and to help this person
(23:00):
communicate to others and forothers understand what are some
of the tweaks and adjustmentsand modifications that can be
made.
Not any single one of them arehuge.
But when you start adding themup, the cumulative impact can be
huge.
So why would we not wanna dothat?
Leisa Reichelt (23:15):
Yeah, and I guess it validates the young
person's, desire to do some ofthose things as being like, this
is something that's helping tobuild me back up.
It's not I'm addicted to ascreen or hiding away from
reality reading novels, it'slike literally, this is helping
me to sort of build back upagain.
And, yeah, it's not something tobe ashamed of.
It's something to think of as atool.
(23:36):
And then there's also the ND Me.
Adelle Sushames (23:39):
Yeah, that was the third one, that I brought
out, and that was just abouthaving a set of terms and
phrases to use in place of thetypes of terms and phrases that
we typically see in the DSM andin the more formal texts about
autism and ADHD.
So all of the different traitsbasically that I could think of
in there.
And there're things that youwould find in the DSM, but
(24:00):
worded in more affirminglanguage, but also things that
are the, I guess, moreinternalized high masking
presentations you'll see in latediagnosed adults.
You can see how they fit withinthe criteria, but they're not so
immediately obvious.
They're not part of thestereotype necessarily, but
they're things that I've heardtime and time again and have
(24:22):
experienced and have seen mychildren experience.
Putting that out there as anobjective thing for others to
see and recognise just feltreally important.
Leisa Reichelt (24:32):
One of the reasons that I wanted to share
this is that, A, you've createdthese wonderful resources.
B, I think there's something inthat methodology of like writing
down a whole range of potentialoptions.
Putting them in front of peopleand saying what resonates, what
doesn't resonate?
The validation that comes fromthose range of options being
(24:57):
realistic, valid, acceptable.
As well as that different way ofbeing able to manage information
and communicate information issomething that I've applied with
my kid.
We were coming up to somethingthat was potentially gonna be
really challenging for him and Iwas worried about how he was
feeling emotionally about it.
So I made a whole stack ofemotion cards just on cut up
(25:19):
paper and, asked him to pull outthe ones that he was feeling and
the ones that he wasn't in thatexample, he just told me he was
feeling fine and didn't need todo this, but thanks.
But also, you know, yeah.
You know, we got it opened up.
The communication.
He didn't wanna do the cards,but, sometimes it's easier to
have different dinner options.
He picks one or two that hewould find acceptable.
(25:40):
That's way easier for himsometimes than for me to go,
what would you like for dinner?
Or even, would you like this orthat?
Pointing at a thing on a bit ofpaper is often just such a
easier way to get thatcommunication going.
Yeah, I know that there's a lotof very creative people who
listen to this who will takethis as a concept, I'm sure, and
go, oh, here's all the differentways that I could use that.
(26:01):
Or when we find ourselves in asituation where we're just like,
why can't I get this child totell me what's going on?
This might just be another wayto take out some of the shame,
validate a whole range ofdifferent things that might be
going on, and reduce theintensity of that communication
that we're asking from thempotentially.
Adelle Sushames (26:22):
Yeah.
And look, I think there's nolimit to what parents can
achieve when they are ready andaware and very motivated to
support their child.
We can make our own visualsupports, we can make our own
sensory, tools and resources.
We're very strong at advocatingfor our kids.
(26:42):
And I think that tne next areato focus on for me is getting
schools more on board.
Something that private practicehas taught me over the years is
that you can do all the verybest work with your clients and
with their families, but if theythen go out into the real world
and those supports fall flat orare resisted or rejected.
(27:03):
It's so damaging anddisheartening for everybody.
I put out the Spoons at Schoolcards because I wanted the
schools to have a resource tohelp the kids communicate what
they needed.
For schools to be able tovisibly see it on the table or
on the floor in front of them sothat when they're planning
learning plans or looking at howtheir classrooms are set up or
(27:24):
when they're looking at how toconfigure and, run their sports
days and special events, theyhave it all right there in front
of them and they know.
Leisa Reichelt (27:31):
What's your vision for how the Spoons at
School cards would be used inthe school context?
Adelle Sushames (27:36):
I have no specific instruction but I've
had amazing, emails and messagesfrom teachers and others using
the cards in creative ways.
It's just giving kids a voicereally.
Leisa Reichelt (27:48):
do you have an example of one of the stories
that's been shared to you by ateacher in school that you'd be
able to share with us?
Adelle Sushames (27:54):
yeah, there was a teacher in, I think a year
four or five class, and she'dused the Spoon Thieves and the
Spoon Savers as an activity onthe very first day, back to
school after lunch, she had aboy approach and say, I've got
no spoons left.
Can I have some time to go anddo this activity and she was
just floored because thatparticular child wasn't even on,
(28:14):
on the list of students whomight need accommodations and
supports, but they were able touse it.
Leisa Reichelt (28:19):
So she'd got the whole class to do
Adelle Sushames (28:21):
to
Leisa Reichelt (28:21):
the exercise.
Adelle Sushames (28:23):
Yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (28:23):
Wow.
That's pretty amazing, isn't it?
Because I guess everybody isimpacted, aren't they?
By things that draw their energyand things that build their
energy back up again.
Adelle Sushames (28:32):
Yeah, I mean, I'd see them being used at
teacher PD days without thestudents even present because I
think there's so much learningthat could be had and just
discussions from doingactivities with the cards around
what their needs are asteachers, because surprise,
there are neuro divergentteachers, plenty,
Leisa Reichelt (28:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Adelle Sushames (28:49):
Either need accommodations or have come to
develop their own ways ofworking that allow their needs
to be accommodated.
Leisa Reichelt (28:56):
Yeah.
Adelle Sushames (28:56):
I think those ones in particular are gonna be
our strongest advocates forAuDHD kids moving forward in
schools, but just for all of theteachers and TAs to have more
tools in their kit and moreunderstanding and awareness of
how they might, come togetherwhen they're supporting our
young people.
Leisa Reichelt (29:16):
Sounds wonderful.
Okay, well if people do wannafind out more about the cards
that you've created or, followyour social media channels
where's the best place to findout more?
Adelle Sushames (29:26):
well you can find my social media.
neurodivergent, I think it'sAlly the handle to search up.
Other than that, you can take alook at my website, which is
neurodivergentally.com, and Ihave an email list that goes out
most weeks.
Leisa Reichelt (29:40):
Well thank you so much for taking this time,
Adelle.
I really appreciate it.
It's been great to talk to youtoday.
Well, I hope you're feeling alittle more inspired with some
ways that we might be able tounblock communications with our
School Can't kids.
We talked about Adelle's greatcard decks today, but I did also
wanna give a shout out to SchoolCan't Australia's very own
Tiffany Westphall, who has alsoproduced a card set called the
(30:01):
Student Stress Investigationthat you also might wanna
checkout.
Now at the risk of sounding likea complete YouTuber.
If you have found this episodehelpful, please do take a moment
to subscribe to our podcast.
Maybe even give us a rating or areview.
It really does help us to getthis podcast in front of more
people who have School Can'tkids, and have not yet found our
community and the informationthat we can share.
(30:23):
You can find links to Adelle'sinformation in the episode
notes, as well as some helpfulSchool Can't Australia links.
Do you have some feedback forus?
Maybe you'd like to share yourown school current lived
experience.
You can drop us an email toschoolcantpodcast@gmail.com And
finally, if you are a parent orcarer in Australia and you are
feeling distressed, pleaseremember you can always call the
(30:45):
Parent Helpline in your state.
A link with the number to callis in the episode notes.
Thank you so much for listening,and we will talk again soon.
Take care.
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