June 9, 2025 • 42 mins
Dr. Ross Greene, founder of the Collaborative and Proactive Solutions (CPS) model joins host Leisa Reichelt and guest Louise Rogers from School Can't Australia in this episode of the School Can't Experience podcast.
Dr. Greene explains the philosophy behind CPS, focusing on identifying and solving problems that cause challenging behaviours rather than just addressing the behaviours themselves. He discusses practical strategies for engaging children and young people in problem-solving, the importance of seeking information from the young person, and the importance of not imposing solutions unilaterally.
Dr. Greene also highlights creative methods for communicating with reluctant children and the role of mutual satisfaction in finding effective solutions.
We also discuss how to involve schools in the CPS process, and potentially readjust our expectations around school attendance as we learn more.
00:00 Welcome to the School Can't Experience Podcast
00:27 Introduction to Dr. Ross Greene and CPS Model
01:13 Understanding the CPS Approach
01:58 Addressing School Refusal and Unsolved Problems
04:19 Collaborative Problem Solving with Kids
07:37 Creative Strategies for Engaging Kids
11:01 Prioritizing and Solving Multiple Problems
19:36 Involving Schools in the CPS Process
27:11 Managing Expectations and Flexibility
39:01 Resources and Final Thoughts
Recommended Resources
- Lives in the Balance (CPS Resources) - https://livesinthebalance.org/
- The Essential Conversation by Sara Lawrence-Lightfoot - http://www.saralawrencelightfoot.com/essential-conversation.html
- School Can’t Australia Facebook Community - https://www.facebook.com/groups/schoolphobiaschoolrefusalaustralia
- Make a donation to School Can’t Australia - https://www.schoolcantaustralia.com.au/get-involved
If you are a parent of carer in Australia and experiencing distress, please call Lifeline on 13 11 14 or contact the Parent Help Line. - https://kidshelpline.com.au/parents/issues/how-parentline-can-help-you
You can contact us to volunteer to share your School Can't story or some feedback via email on schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com
Disclaimer
The content of this podcast is based on personal lived experiences and is shared for informational and storytelling purposes only. It should not be treated as medical, psychological, or professional advice under any circumstances. If you have concerns about your health or well-being, please seek guidance from a doctor, therapist, or other qualified professional.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leisa Reichelt (00:05):
Hello and welcome to the School Can't
Experience podcast.
I'm Leisa Reichelt, and thispodcast is brought to you by the
School Can't Australiacommunity.
Caring for a young person who isstruggling to attend School
Can't be a really stressful andisolating experience.
But you are not alone.
Thousands of parents acrossAustralia and many more around
the world face similarchallenges and experiences every
(00:26):
day.
Today I'm joined by LouiseRogers from School Can't
Australia, and we are veryexcited to share our
conversation with Dr.
Ross Greene.
Now, Dr.
Greene's work will be familiarto many of us already.
Dr.
Greene is the founder of the CPSor the Collaborative and
Proactive Solutions model, whichis an evidence-based,
compassionate approach tounderstanding and supporting our
(00:48):
kids.
He's the author of severalinfluential books, including The
Explosive Child and Lost AtSchool.
And his philosophy has been areally important influence for
School Can't Australia'sperspective on how we can best
support our kids and youngpeople who are struggling to
attend school.
I hope you enjoy thisconversation.
Dr.
Ross Greenee, we are absolutelydelighted and very excited to
(01:09):
have the opportunity to talk toyou on our podcast today.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Ross Greene (01:12):
Glad to be here.
Leisa Reichelt (01:15):
If there are any parents who are listening who
aren't very familiar with CPS,and I know lots of folk out
there are already quitefamiliar, I would love for you
just to briefly explain what isCPS, how does it work and how
does it differ from moretraditional approaches to
parenting?
Ross Greene (01:33):
Well, um, the biggest shift that's involved in
the CPS model is we're notparticularly focused on a kid's
behavior.
We're focused on the problemsthat are causing the behavior.
Um, that's right.
Concerning behaviors are causedby problems, we call them
unsolved problems, and thatthere's the giveaway.
(01:56):
If it's an unsolved problem, itneeds to be solved.
So a good example of a behavioris what we might call school
refusal.
And we wouldn't work on schoolrefusal in the CPS model in the
same way that we wouldn't workon hitting or kicking or
spitting or screaming orswearing or whining or pouting
(02:19):
or sulking or withdrawing.
Those are behaviors that tell usthat a kid is struggling or that
a kid is in distress, or goodcalling them stress responses.
We more typically call themfrustration responses, but I
view those as prettyinterchangeable.
We need to focus on the problemsthat are causing the behavior
and solving them.
(02:40):
When a kid is refusing to go toschool, there is something
that's making it hard for themto go to school.
If we don't focus on thatsomething, if all we do is try
to incentivize going to school,we will never find out what's
making it hard for the kid to goto school.
And I would be skeptical of thelong term effectiveness of
(03:07):
simply incentivizing a kid to goto school when there is
something getting in their way,that must be very important.
A big theme of the CPS model is'kids do well if they can'.
We could adapt that to'kids goto school if they can'.
Um, if a kid isn't going toschool, something must be
getting in their way.
(03:28):
So it's really easy to jump intoconsequences, which is
traditional parenting.
We'll reward you for going toschool in some way.
We will punish you if you don't.
That's incentivizing.
I think that misses the forestfor the trees.
We need to get at what's makingit hard for the kid to go to
school if we want to havereliable school attendance at
(03:50):
some point.
Leisa Reichelt (03:53):
Right.
Well, I don't think there's asingle thing that you've said
there that Louise or I coulddisagree with to be honest.
In the situation then where wehave parents whose children are
struggling to go to school,that's the behavior that's not
the problem.
And I imagine there might bemultiple problems contributing
to going to school.
What do we do?
What's the next step?
(04:13):
We're recognize that it's notthat the going to school isn't
the problem.
How do we start to work out whatthose problems are?
Ross Greene (04:21):
The first thing we gotta do is recognize that we
have a partner in all of this.
That's the kid who's havingdifficulty going to school.
They probably know more aboutwhat's making it hard for them
to go to school than anybody.
They are going to be our numberone source of information on
what's making it hard for themto go to school, which is why we
describe collaborative andproactive solutions or CPS as an
(04:41):
'ask the kid' model.
And we want to gatherinformation from the kid about
what's making it hard for themto go to school proactively, is
why another mantra of the CPSmodel is'don't be late'.
The ideal time to deal with akid who's having difficulty
going to school is not just asthe kid is having difficulty
going to school, horribletiming.
(05:02):
Uh, everybody's alreadyescalated and predictably so.
By the way, and this isn't thefirst time the kid has had
difficulty going to school, wealways say that an unsolved
problem is only a surprise thefirst time it happens after
that, it's not a surpriseanymore.
So nobody's shocked that thiskid is having difficulty going
to school.
Likelihood is that it's alongstanding problem, right?
(05:24):
And the fact that the kid isstill having difficulty going to
school is proof positive theproblem isn't solved yet.
But often it relates to'ask thekid', us adults feel that it is
our job to know what's gettingin the kid's way our job to know
what to do about it.
That often leads the mostimportant person out of the
(05:47):
equation, the kid.
So we have problems to solve andmuch better to solve them
collaboratively, meaning withthe full involvement of the kid,
proactively meaning not in theheat of the moment.
That's why we call the modelCollaborative and Proactive
Solutions.
Leisa Reichelt (06:03):
So that'd be sitting down on the weekends and
having this conversation ratherthan on a Monday morning.
Ross Greene (06:09):
Monday morning would be bad timing.
I like making appointments withkids to have a conversation with
them, and I like letting themknow what we want to talk with
'em about and understand better.
Those are actually the exactwords.
Because even if you're trying tosolve a problem proactively, if
you're springing the topic onthe kid, it still has a heat of
(06:33):
the moment feel to it, right?
I like to let kids know wereally would love to understand
a little bit better what'smaking it hard for you to go to
school?
Is there a time that we can findto talk about that?
And then you and the kid arepicking a time together and we
gotta get this done.
And by the way, there are somepeople who would say that doing
that takes a lot of time.
I always like to point out tothem, look how much time you're
(06:53):
spending trying to get to kid togo to school with that problem
still unsolved.
Leisa Reichelt (06:58):
Absolutely.
I know there would be a lot offolk who maybe didn't recognize
signs early enough.
and weren't able to engage amethod like this early enough.
And so at the point where theyare trying to talk to the child
about why they're struggling togo to school, the child is very
(07:19):
reluctant or possibly unable tosit down and have this
conversation.
Do you have any guidance on whatwe do in a situation?
I remember a point with my son,I'd say, could we sit down at
some point and talk aboutschool?
He'd just go, no, and shut thedoor in my face.
how do we approach that sort ofsituation?
Ross Greene (07:39):
Um, I wanna word it, well, there's something I'd
like to understand better, so I,don't know if that would've made
a difference with your son, butall we're trying to do is
understand.
Right.
And by the way, if a kid isinitially not particularly
responsive to the idea oftalking about it, can get
creative.
In the CPS model, there is sucha premium on hearing the voice
(08:01):
of the kid.
We know well that there are somekids who perhaps because it's a
difficult topic because theyhave lots of experience with
adults not being particularlyinterested in what they have to
say, or having their concerns bedismissed or disregarded.
You know, we're doing this forthe first time, they're not
jumping for joy and saying,finally you're gonna listen to
(08:23):
what I have to say.
They are skeptical and good forthem.
Right.
So we do have to get creative.
Sometimes if the kid will sitwith us, we can guess.
what might be hard about goingto school.
And they can, they don't evenhave to respond in words, they
can respond with fingers.
Right.
Some kids that I've worked withwere willing to text with me,
(08:46):
even though they were not allthat enthusiastic about talking
face to face.
Some kids were willing to talkwith me by Zoom with the cameras
off, but not with the camerason.
Some kids would fill out asurvey for me, reason I'm having
difficulty going to school is A,there are kids who are not kind
(09:08):
to me.
B, parts of the school day arevery difficult for me.
C, there are assignments thatare hard for me.
D there are teachers that arehard for me.
All they have to do is circle.
So I think that we can getcreative with that.
Creativity is not gonna see youthrough every single time, but
it will see you through a lot ofthe time.
if it doesn't see us through, Imight change the unsolved
(09:32):
problem to'difficulty talkingwith mom or dad about difficulty
going to school' and see ifthat's something the kid will
talk with us about.
Bottom line is we've gotta getthe conversation going.
And it might not be through thespoken word either because the
(09:52):
kid can talk but isn't, or inthe case of non-speaking kids,
because they can't.
we're very creative in thismodel, mostly because, you know,
it's so easy to just say,alright, I'll decide.
as the parent or as the adult,the kid's voice is critical.
We're not gonna be able to,we've proven solve this problem
(10:13):
without the kid, we're gonnahave to get creative.
Leisa Reichelt (10:17):
Yeah, just reflecting on what you're saying
about how sometimes you need tostep it back to saying the
problem isn't even about theproblems to do with going to
school.
The problem is I can't talk toyou about this
Ross Greene (10:26):
Correct.
Leisa Reichelt (10:27):
resonates a lot with me, I think, and I've found
that you have to keep going backand back and back to the root
cause to create something thatfeels safe enough to talk about
and then you kind of earn thetrust back really, don't you?
To be able to talk about theharder
Ross Greene (10:41):
things.
That's a very good point.
I know that difficulty going toschool may be the most pressing,
urgent issue but if a kid won'ttalk about that, they may talk
about why they don't usually eatwhat you've made for dinner.
At least we've gotten thetalking ball rolling.
Leisa Reichelt (11:02):
That kind of leads on, I think, to another
interesting question, which isthat a lot of the times with our
kids who are struggling to go toschool, it's not one problem.
It's a bundle of differentproblems.
I think we know of one parentwhose child had 70 different
reasons why, school waschallenging for them.
If we were doing one of yoursurveys and the child comes back
(11:23):
and responds and says, there's adozen different reasons why I
can't go to school.
What do we do?
What's our next step?
How do we start to unpick that?
Ross Greene (11:32):
We want to hear about all of them.
We want to keep track of all ofthem.
The fact that there are a lot ofthem doesn't mean that every
single one of them needs to besolved for the kid to be able to
go to school.
Some might solve by solvingothers.
We will, after we hear what allof those factors are, ask the
(11:55):
kid to prioritize for us, whichis getting in the way the most,
which is most important.
There are gonna be circumstancesin which we have to address all
12.
that's not necessarily the norm,but we take'em as they come.
We want to hear about all ofthem.
And by the way, that's anothergood strategy.
We don't have to talk aboutthem, I just want to know what
(12:19):
they are.
You don't have to tell me inwords.
You could write it down, text itto me.
If we've got a kid who's beenhaving difficulty going to
school for a very long time andhasn't been communicating with
us for a very long time, this isall not gonna happen in one fell
swoop just because we adultshave taken a different approach.
(12:40):
That's what's amazing.
people think that this approachmeans that you've brought out
your magic wand, right?
It's the CPS magic wand.
Nope.
We are still entering into thisunder the same circumstances
that are the reason we needed itin the first place, right?
And we're gonna have tounderstand that.
The kid hasn't talked about itfor a long time.
Just because we're trying adifferent approach, doesn't mean
(13:02):
they're gonna start singing.
Leisa Reichelt (13:05):
Yeah, I think that's.
an important message, Because ifwe sit down and try to attempt
this and it doesn't work thefirst time doesn't mean that the
methods failed.
It means we need to
Ross Greene (13:15):
No.
Leisa Reichelt (13:15):
to our creative box of ways that we can approach
this.
Ross Greene (13:18):
Yeah.
Well, a kid who's not talking isgiving us information, right.
We're paying attention to atwhat point did the kid start not
talking?
Was it when I, asked him or heror them if they would sit down
with me so that I couldunderstand something better?
(13:39):
Was it when I told them what thetopic was?
Was it when I started theproblem solving process?
At what point did they balk thattells me, all right, we've just
hit a pressure point.
Now, right at that moment, wecan say if the kid is still
there with us, tell me what justhappened.
(13:59):
I noticed that question causedyou to stop.
Right.
So there's bottom line isthere's all kinds of nuances
when it comes to having anyhuman being, kids included,
having any human being talkabout something that's difficult
for them or that they may beembarrassed or ashamed about, or
(14:19):
something that's painful forthem.
This is any human being, justbecause we're trying a different
approach doesn't mean they'regonna start talking right away.
This is the empathic part of themodel, right?
A kid who's going to school, akid who's having difficulty
going to school is in distress,Whatever their demeanor is
(14:41):
they're in distress and we needto approach them as if they're
in distress.
a kid who's not talking isanother indicator of something.
Not always clear what it is.
Maybe the kid will tell me whatthe something is.
Maybe the kid will drop a fewhints.
Whatever they're dropping, I'vegot info that's gonna help me
(15:02):
the next time.
Leisa Reichelt (15:05):
Amazing.
Okay, often talk aboutresilience for our kids, but
maybe it's resilience for us ingently trying to have these
conversations and take theinformation that's being put
down as it happens.
Ross Greene (15:15):
The co-regulation folks may have a point good to
stay on top of your ownemotions.
Let's face it, if you have a kidwho's having difficulty going to
school, you have some emotionsaround that as well.
You are worried about your kid.
You may be worried about gettinginto trouble.
You may be embarrassed, whateveryou are, if those things come
(15:39):
through too powerfully yourkid's not gonna talk to you.
Because emotions are too strongand their emotions are strong,
and now communication is muchmore difficult.
So as the leader of thisinformation gathering process,
we have to steel ourselves andsay, let me do my best to put my
emotions around this on theshelf, my impatience around this
(16:01):
on the shelf, because I've beendealing with this for a very
long time.
Can I put those on the shelf?
Or do I need a neutral thirdparty to get this going for me?
If I really don't feel confidentthat I can put my emotions on
the shelf, or, if there's somuch water over the dam over
this issue that I really don'tthink there's much chance my kid
(16:24):
will talk to me about it.
Can we find a neutral thirdparty?
And that doesn't necessarilyhave to be a mental health
clinician.
It can be a neutral third partywho the kid trusts.
Bottom line, we need info.
Right.
We need info on the road tosolving this problem.
We need info first.
Whoever the kid is comfortableproviding that info to, we'll
(16:48):
it.
Leisa Reichelt (16:50):
Well, imagine that we have managed to start to
get some info from our kids, andwe have a sense of what some of
the problems are and what'sgoing on.
What's our next step?
We, know some of the problems.
We know roughly where thepriorities are.
what do we do now?
Ross Greene (17:04):
Alright, as many of your listeners may not know,
solving a problemcollaboratively is a three step
process.
And once again, not justcollaboratively, proactively,
you really don't wanna be doingthis in the heat of the moment.
the first step is called theempathy step this is where we're
gathering information from thekid.
Why is it called the empathystep?
Because it involves listening,which is the purest form of
(17:26):
empathy and curiosity.
The second step is called theDefine Adult Concerns step.
This is where adults areentering their concerns into
consideration, basically relatedin this case, to why we think
it's important that the kid goto school.
Adult concerns usually fall intoone or both of two categories.
(17:48):
How the unsolved problemsaffecting the kid, how the
unsolved problems affectingother people.
In the case of this particularunsolved problem, most of them
are probably gonna be related tohow it's affecting the kid, but
I can see a place where it couldbe affecting other people too.
Then third step is theinvitation step.
And this is where we arecollaborating on a solution.
(18:12):
The solution has to meet twocriteria.
It's gotta be realistic.
Both parties gotta be able to dowhat they're agreeing to do, and
this is even more important,it's gotta be mutually
satisfactory.
Mutually satisfactory means thesolution has to address the
concerns of both parties.
This problem will not be solvedunless we have a solution that
(18:36):
addresses the concerns of bothparties.
Now in the case of the empathystep, these are probably
concerns we didn't know as muchabout as we needed to, which
means they weren't beingaddressed.
Solutions that we adults come tounilaterally on the basis of
minimal or no information fromthe kid are not going to address
(18:59):
the kid's concerns, which is whythose solutions typically do not
work.
We don't know what the kids'concerns are.
Their concerns could notpossibly have been addressed if
we didn't identify them.
Solution also has to address theadult's concerns, you know,
unilateral solutions, solutionsadults impose are solutions that
(19:19):
would address their concerns,but not the kids.
This is a solution that has tobe mutually satisfactory.
We gotta address the concerns ofboth parties, but we're not
gonna address the concerns ofboth parties unless we know what
they are first.
Leisa Reichelt (19:36):
It feels as though in the school context
there's almost a thirdcollaborative partner that needs
to be at play, which is theschool, because a lot of the
issues that kids are dealingwith are to do with expectations
that are imposed by school, orsituations that are in place by
school, where we need the schoolto partner with us to change the
(19:58):
circumstances so it can make iteasier to solve the problems.
How should we be thinking aboutthat?
Should we be thinking about theschool as being a part of this
process?
Or as a parent acting as anadvocate with the school?
Have you got some thoughts onthat?
Ross Greene (20:12):
Great question.
In the empathy step, and I'mstill gonna go back to the three
steps'cause that's what's gonnabe critical.
Don't know if we need the schoolfolks there for the empathy step
It's entirely possible thatthere's somebody at school who
the kid feels most comfortabletalking to.
So the school may be involvedright outta the gate, The Define
Adult Concern step.
(20:33):
I don't know if we need theschool for that.
I have a feeling the concerns ofthe school are gonna be fairly
similar to the concerns of theadults as it relates to the kid
not showing up.
This is all strategy Who needsto be involved?
We are almost definitely gonnaneed the school folks to help us
out in the invitation, but Iwon't know how much help we're
(20:57):
gonna need from the school folksuntil I hear what the kids'
concerns are in the empathystep.
But the fact that this isoccurring on their watch at
school tells me it's a nearcertainty we're gonna need the
school folks to be involved inhelping us come up with
solutions that will address theconcerns we've identified in
(21:18):
those first two steps.
I am thinking you are about toask, although you might not be,
I'm not a mind reader and trynot to be.
What if the school won'tcooperate?
Well, they have a student who'snot showing up.
They could blame the parents ifthey wanted to, but this is an
everybody unsolved problem, andthey are on the hook for meeting
(21:41):
the kid where they're at.
If they have a kid who's notshowing up, they're still on the
hook.
They can point to the home folksall they want if that's their
modus operandi.
Right?
Some schools recognize, no, itmust be something we're doing,
but we, we can't get anythingout of the kid about that.
So if you've got info, we'lltake it.
(22:02):
Right.
And some schools are busypointing the finger.
A lot of this depends on what wehear in the empathy step.
We need the school folks andthey're still on the hook from
meeting the kid where they'reat.
They have a student who's notshowing up.
They gotta help out.
That's kind of the law
Leisa Reichelt (22:22):
Yeah,
Louise Roger (22:23):
Yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (22:23):
as though the experience many of us have is
that it's much easier for themto blame the parent or blame the
child than it is for them tothink about how they can
potentially make changes, whichis not entirely true.
lots of schools do try lots ofthings to help
Ross Greene (22:38):
But here's the interesting thing.
Remember, school folks arefrustrated too, because they've
probably been trying stuff too.
But if what everybody's beentrying has been in the absence
of information from the kid,Then this is what we might call
the crap shoot approach tointervention, right?
We don't even know what we'reaiming at because we haven't
(22:59):
received any information fromthe kid about what's actually
getting in their way, So a lotof solutions that have gone over
the dam, we might say aresolutions that what we call
uninformed, Uninformed solutionsgenerally don't work because we
haven't done the empathy stepwith the kid yet, so we don't
yet know what's getting in theirway.
(23:21):
Frustration sometimes lendsitself to blaming, but if we're
able to come to the school folksarmed with information about
what's actually getting in thekids' way.
I find that a lot of the blamingthen ends, We're blaming the kid
or the parents because Timmy isbullying our kid on the school
(23:45):
bus.
Why are we blaming anybody forthat?
that's a problem we need tosolve, right?
We're blaming the parentsbecause Timmy is having
difficulty completing the doubledigit division problems on the
worksheet in math.
Why are we blaming anybody forthat?
So I find that once we get thatinformation from the kid, we're
not guessing anymore.
We're probably not blaminganymore.
(24:07):
We just have some problems weneed to solve.
That information from the kid iscritical.
Otherwise, we're still guessingand often still blaming.
Leisa Reichelt (24:15):
So I'm imagining we've got a list of things that
could be everything from, Ican't handle wearing the school
shoes that you want me to wearto school.
I need, something differentabout uniforms.
To, another really common one isI don't have somebody at school
who I can trust to actuallylisten to me and hear me when
there's something wrong.
to, lunchtimes are nightmare andI can't go out and be in that
(24:37):
unstructured, noisy, smellytime.
I need to do something differentat lunchtime.
So there's a whole collection ofdifferent things that we've got
going on.
you're saying that, the parentmight be the go-between, between
school and child.
Should the child be activelyinvolved with talking with the
school about this, or we'll justplay it by ear a little bit.
Ross Greene (24:57):
Play it by ear, but if the child's able, it would be
better.
I'm not gonna push it if thechild is not comfortable doing
this, but it would be better.
This is not gonna be what itlooks like initially probably it
would be better if the childcould communicate with the
school folks directly,especially if they're saying
they don't feel like there'sanybody for them to talk to at
(25:19):
school.
It's gonna be very hard for aparent to address all the
factors without engaging theschool folks.
The hope is that somebodyemerges from these school folks
side of things to be somebodywho shows that they can listen,
show that they can understand,and shows, this is big, that
(25:42):
they are as invested in gettingthe kids' concerns addressed
they're in getting their ownconcerns addressed.
We tend to be pretty egocentricabout our concerns.
That often causes us not toaddress the concerns of the
other person.
This process, it has to bemutually satisfactory.
The concerns of both partieshave to be addressed.
Often a school folk emerges.
(26:05):
I never know who it's be.
That could start becoming thego-to person.
And if the kid starts beingcomfortable talking to the go-to
person, then we can slowly butsurely as the kid lets us know
that they are able start totransfer some of the talking
about school to the folks whoare actually in a better
(26:26):
position to do things aboutschool than the parent.
But how long is it gonna take?
All bets are off.
Leisa Reichelt (26:34):
Sometimes
Ross Greene (26:34):
it's way faster than people think it's gonna be,
and sometimes it's as slow aspeople think it's gonna be.
but just because kid/schoolcommunication isn't seamless
yet, doesn't mean we can't startmoving on addressing many of the
kids' concerns.
This is all a process.
(26:55):
if we can start addressing someof the kids' concerns, you may
not have to address all of themand some might solve by solving
others.
Bottom line is, at this point,we take it as it comes, and we
see how we're doing.
Leisa Reichelt (27:11):
The other thing that people will be very
familiar with from CPS, I thinkis the plan A, plan B, plan C.
Ross Greene (27:19):
well plan A is where you're solving a problem
unilaterally.
Probably been there and donethat.
Louise Roger (27:25):
Yes.
Ross Greene (27:25):
Plan B is what we've been talking about.
It's where you're solving aproblem collaboratively.
Plan C is where you're puttingsome expectations on hold, at
least for now.
That's big because if this kidhas 17 different factors that
are making it difficult for themto go to school, we're not gonna
be able to address'em all atonce.
While we're gonna solve as manyas we can, we may have to put
(27:46):
some of them on hold for now.
Right.
That's interesting because uscaregivers, whether it's a
parent or somebody at school,we're not accustomed to putting
expectations on hold.
We think it means we're givingin.
We think it means we're givingup.
It means neither of thosethings.
What it means is that you'reprioritizing, you're recognizing
(28:08):
you can't solve everything atonce.
And it took a long time forthose problems to accumulate and
it's gonna take a little whilefor us to chip our way through
'em.
So, some problems need to be puton hold, at least for now.
If we have a kid who's engagedin the process, showing movement
toward going to school becausesome of the top priority
(28:29):
problems have been solved.
I find that most adults arewilling to put some things on
hold, and here's the bottom lineabout Plan C.
The kid isn't meeting theexpectation anyway, so all we're
really doing is making itofficial, and we're saying you
don't have to meet theexpectation the expectation
(28:50):
wasn't being met in the firstplace.
We're not giving up on theexpectation, we're just
prioritizing.
one of my, one of my trainerswas telling me a story about a
school principal.
I'm gonna be doing a keynote atthe school, at the beginning of
the school year next year.
we're working with some of theschools already in the school
(29:12):
system teaching them how to doPlan B and about Plan C and the
principal of the school said,make sure you tell Ross that
when he is doing the keynote, hetalks a lot about Plan C.
Plan C is not how most adults,it's not in their DNA.
(29:33):
Sometimes school folks need tobe given permission to ease up
on some expectations whileyou're working on others.
But here's a principal saying,please talk about Plan C when
you do your keynote he knows hisstaff and knows that plan C is
hard for a lot of people, butthat's the principal giving his
(29:55):
staff permission to put someexpectations on hold because
it's in the best interest of thekid.
I'd call that meeting kids wherethey're at, and that's the
definition of good teaching.
Louise Roger (30:08):
Thank you for that too though, because I think a
lot of us parents find ourselveshaving to plan C a lot of the
expectations around schoolattendance and, and of course,
uh, for people who aren'tfamiliar with thinking about
this as underlying difficultiesthat we've got to solve and that
we can't do it all at once.
it can look from the outside,like this is somehow permissive
(30:31):
parenting, whereas we are beingstrategic.
In selecting the tasks andexpectations that we're gonna
work on.
So thank you very much forgiving us some context around
that.
Ross Greene (30:43):
You may still be on the hook for being accused of
being permissive and passive.
I don't know if we can get ridof that.
All we can do is explain whatwe're doing to people.
And quite frankly what I hearfrom a lot of people about the
CPS model is that it makes a lotof sense.
This is common sense.
Why would you load a kid up withexpectations that you already
know they can't meet?
What's the point of that?
(31:06):
So it's easy to stereotypeparents as passive, permissive.
That doesn't mean it's right.
All you can do is explainyourself to people and hope that
their minds and ears are wideopen.
Leisa Reichelt (31:16):
That's beautiful.
Louise Roger (31:18):
Thank you.
Leisa Reichelt (31:19):
I was thinking, we
Louise Roger (31:20):
I.
Leisa Reichelt (31:20):
but we've framed this up a lot as like the
problem is going to school andI'm sure there are a lot of
people who are, kids aren'tattending school, but who are
still achieving an education,who might be screaming out from,
you know, from their headphoneslistening, going, you framed the
problem wrong.
Like, the problem should be, howcan my child learn and become
(31:42):
educated?
I just wonder if there'ssomething that you would reflect
on in that in terms of likemaking sure that we've actually
shaped the problem the rightway.
Ross Greene (31:53):
Depends what your expectation is.
If it is your expectation thatyour kid learn at school, then
difficulty going to school is agood conversation starter.
It's a well worded, unsolvedproblem.
If you find out during theempathy step that there are
hurdles that are, this is notgonna happen, and I wouldn't
(32:18):
leap to that conclusion tooquickly, then we're not looking
for the kid to go to schoolanymore, we're looking for them
to learn, So it all depends onwhere people are in the journey.
If parents still feel likeschool is where their kid is
(32:39):
going to be educated and that'stheir expectation, then that
wording is still fine, that'sstill an okay entry point.
Right.
But if they've basically decidedthat's not how you need to
learn, we're not mandating thatyou go to school, but it is our
expectation that you learn.
Let's talk about what that lookslike.
You've just changed yourexpectation.
If you've changed yourexpectation, you've changed the
(33:00):
unsolved problem.
And the truth is, if your newexpectation is one that the kid
can meet, you don't even have anunsolved problem.
There's nothing to talk aboutanymore.
But it all depends on what theparental expectation is for how
their kid is going to learn, Ifthey're still thinking the
learning is going to take placein school, then that's still the
unsolved problem.
Leisa Reichelt (33:20):
Interesting.
In my mind, I'm trying to jugglethe challenge of going into a
problem without dictating myterms understanding the parental
expectation and unpacking thosetwo things.
Does that make sense?
Ross Greene (33:36):
I don't know that I would say having an expectation
is synonymous with dictatingterms, an expectation's an
expectation, dictating termsfeels more to me like the parent
has decided here's what thesolution is.
Right?
I'm dictating the terms of yougoing to school.
(34:01):
That's different than saying,I've noticed you've been having
difficulty going to school.
What's up?
Now our ears are wide open.
Dictating terms feels to me likewe're not listening at all.
We're just telling the kid theway it's gonna be.
I do think that there is apretty significant difference
between having an expectationand dictating the terms.
(34:23):
if you have an expectation andit's not being met, this is an
ask the kid model.
You're not dictating anythinganymore.
You're gathering information andyou're solving those problems
collaboratively.
Leisa Reichelt (34:33):
this might sound a little bit dumb, but am I
solving those problems with theexpectation that I will achieve
my expectation?
Or is part of it that I'mwilling to shift on the
expectation that I go into itwith as well.
Ross Greene (34:48):
We will find out.
But here's the interestingthing.
You had to have the expectationof your kid going to school to
have it be unmet.
Bottom line is if your kid'sgoing to school without issue,
you don't have an unsolvedproblem.
So you had to have theexpectation that the kid go to
school, and your kid had to behaving difficulty meeting that
expectation for thisconversation to take place.
(35:09):
Otherwise, there's no point inhaving the conversation.
Right.
You're finding out in theempathy step what's making it
hard for the kid to meet theexpectation.
Light bulbs are going on.
Generally speaking, we'retelling people be prepared for
surprises in the empathy step.
When you discover that what youthought was getting in the kid's
(35:30):
way is not what's getting in thekid's way.
So we're going into the empathystep completely open-minded, no
dictating of terms here.
Right, you already had theexpectation that the kid go to
school, the kid's already havingdifficulty going.
So that stuff is sort of thatset the stage for the
conversation.
(35:50):
But now you are finding outwhat's getting in your kid's way
and your kid, in the next step,is finding out what your
concerns are.
The problem is solved oncewhat's getting in the way for
the kid have been addressed andyour concerns have been
addressed.
Now here's the interestingthing, in the empathy step, I've
seen expectations change, peoplehear about what's getting in the
(36:15):
kids' way.
I've seen this happen.
They're hearing things thatmakes them say, you know what?
I think I need to modify myexpectation because what I'm
hearing tells me I should nothave that expectation.
I need to think about what myexpectation is now.
(36:36):
Right.
Lemme give that some thoughtbecause I don't know if I wanna
have the expectation that I had,that you were having difficulty
meeting.
Now that I know what I know.
Right.
So bottom line it's not uncommonin life for us to gather
information about something weknew nothing about.
And then it gives us pause andmakes us say, oh my, I don't
(36:59):
know if where I was coming, letme put it this way.
Where I was coming from was notinformed by what I know now.
I need to give this somethought.
That's not typical, but it'salso not that unusual, right?
What's been missing is theinformation.
We stuck with our expectation inthe absence of information.
(37:23):
Once we have that informationabout what's been getting in the
way for the kid, we have theright to modify our expectation.
We also have the right to stickwith it, right?
We also have the right to dropit completely, right?
I've seen adults in the midst ofthe empathy step go, I don't
care about this anymore.
(37:43):
Now that I know what I know, Imight have to make some
decisions about what myexpectations are for how my kid
will learn.
All of this comes out of thewash in the empathy step.
the reason for that is we'refinally understanding what's
been getting in the kid's wayall along, probably for a very
long time.
Leisa Reichelt (38:00):
The other thing that makes me think as well is
that this process helps revealour expectations to ourselves.
I think a lot of the time wehave these expectations.
We don't even know we have.
Because they're so built intosocietal expectations, and so
when our kids run into adifficulty with them, it almost
reveals the expectation to us,and we get the opportunity then
to question it for ourselves.
Ross Greene (38:22):
Well, I think that the expectation's usually clear.
Why we have it can beinteresting.
Right.
So the whole process is, it'samazing that three simple steps
can be such a, quite frankly,earth shattering process for
people.
(38:42):
But to tell you the truth,that's what happens when we
listen to each other.
That's what happens when we'recurious.
That's what happens when we findout what's really getting in a
kid's way.
When we put our assumptions onthe side, put power on the side,
and finally listen, it's a thingof beauty.
Leisa Reichelt (39:00):
Amazing.
if parents are wanting moreinformation about how to get
started with CPS, where wouldyou recommend that they start?
Ross Greene (39:11):
The Lives in the Balance website, the nonprofit
that I founded Lives In TheBalance has a vast, and I mean
vast array of free resources toorient people to the model.
Um.
My book Lost at School has avery good section about
(39:32):
home/school communication.
And the person who I amreferring to some in that
section is someone named SaraLawrence-Lightfoot, who wrote a
book called The EssentialConversation that should be
required reading for everyparent and educator.
And it very wise book itbasically says, you know what,
(39:56):
we all have expertise on thiskid.
School folks have expertise thatus home folks don't have.
Home folks have expertise thatthe school folks don't have.
The fact that we are in conflictwith each other, even though we
both want what's best for thiskid, is like most conflict that
occurs in this world.
both unfortunate unnecessary andvery counterproductive.
(40:17):
We both want what's best for thekid.
The fact that we have differentperspectives should not be a
deal breaker.
The fact that we have disparateperspectives means that we have
perspectives to reconcile basedon our own unique experience of
this kid.
Let's try to come together onthis If the kid is providing us
(40:37):
with information about what'sgetting in their way, that
process will be greatlyfacilitated because now we're
not just guessing with eachother and pointing at each
other.
We're getting information fromthe kid about what's actually
getting in their way, whichmakes it clear that all the
pointing at all the guessingdidn't really do as much good in
the first place.
Leisa Reichelt (40:59):
Yeah, and I think also just making sure that
all parties are on board withthat philosophy of kids do well
if they can, is massive gamechanger as well.
Ross Greene (41:07):
no doubt.
Louise Roger (41:09):
Thank you so much for joining us today, Dr.
Greenee.
Ross Greene (41:12):
My pleasure.
This is what I do.
Louise Roger (41:16):
your collaborative and proactive solutions model
is, is truly transformative andit's been instrumental in
shaping our, our philosophy atSchool Can't Australia.
So thank you.
Ross Greene (41:27):
my pleasure.
I'm glad you've embraced it.
Leisa Reichelt (41:29):
Well, what a joy it is to talk to Dr.
Greene.
His work on Compassionate andProactive Solutions has been
such a game changer for manyparents who are looking for more
compassionate ways to work withtheir kids and looking for
techniques that actually workand not for the first time on
this podcast, that message oftaking the time and effort to
really build the trust, buildthe connection, and build that
relationship between parent andchild comes through so clearly.
(41:53):
I put some links in the episodenotes to the Lives in the
Balance website, where as Dr.
Greene says, there is anabsolute mountain of free
resources available to supportyou on your CPS journey.
I've also popped a link into TheEssential Conversation book that
he's recommended as a essentialread for all parents.
If you found this podcasthelpful, please do take a moment
to share, subscribe, maybe evengive us a rating or review.
(42:15):
This really does help us get ourpodcast in front of more people
who have School Can't kids, andwho haven't yet found our
community or the informationthat we share.
If you have some feedback forus, or maybe you would like to
share your own School Can'tlived experience, which we would
absolutely love, you can drop usan email to
schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com.
And finally, if you are a parentor carer in Australia and you
(42:38):
are feeling distressed, pleaseremember you can always call the
Parent Helpline in your state.
A link with the number to callis in the episode notes.
Thank you again for listening,and we will talk again soon.
Take care.
Hello and welcome to the School Can't
Experience podcast.
I'm Leisa Reichelt, and thispodcast is brought to you by the
School Can't Australiacommunity.
Caring for a young person who isstruggling to attend School
Can't be a really stressful andisolating experience.
But you are not alone.
Thousands of parents acrossAustralia and many more around
the world face similarchallenges and experiences every
(00:26):
day.
Today I'm joined by LouiseRogers from School Can't
Australia, and we are veryexcited to share our
conversation with Dr.
Ross Greene.
Now, Dr.
Greene's work will be familiarto many of us already.
Dr.
Greene is the founder of the CPSor the Collaborative and
Proactive Solutions model, whichis an evidence-based,
compassionate approach tounderstanding and supporting our
(00:48):
kids.
He's the author of severalinfluential books, including The
Explosive Child and Lost AtSchool.
And his philosophy has been areally important influence for
School Can't Australia'sperspective on how we can best
support our kids and youngpeople who are struggling to
attend school.
I hope you enjoy thisconversation.
Dr.
Ross Greenee, we are absolutelydelighted and very excited to
(01:09):
have the opportunity to talk toyou on our podcast today.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Ross Greene (01:12):
Glad to be here.
Leisa Reichelt (01:15):
If there are any parents who are listening who
aren't very familiar with CPS,and I know lots of folk out
there are already quitefamiliar, I would love for you
just to briefly explain what isCPS, how does it work and how
does it differ from moretraditional approaches to
parenting?
Ross Greene (01:33):
Well, um, the biggest shift that's involved in
the CPS model is we're notparticularly focused on a kid's
behavior.
We're focused on the problemsthat are causing the behavior.
Um, that's right.
Concerning behaviors are causedby problems, we call them
unsolved problems, and thatthere's the giveaway.
(01:56):
If it's an unsolved problem, itneeds to be solved.
So a good example of a behavioris what we might call school
refusal.
And we wouldn't work on schoolrefusal in the CPS model in the
same way that we wouldn't workon hitting or kicking or
spitting or screaming orswearing or whining or pouting
(02:19):
or sulking or withdrawing.
Those are behaviors that tell usthat a kid is struggling or that
a kid is in distress, or goodcalling them stress responses.
We more typically call themfrustration responses, but I
view those as prettyinterchangeable.
We need to focus on the problemsthat are causing the behavior
and solving them.
(02:40):
When a kid is refusing to go toschool, there is something
that's making it hard for themto go to school.
If we don't focus on thatsomething, if all we do is try
to incentivize going to school,we will never find out what's
making it hard for the kid to goto school.
And I would be skeptical of thelong term effectiveness of
(03:07):
simply incentivizing a kid to goto school when there is
something getting in their way,that must be very important.
A big theme of the CPS model is'kids do well if they can'.
We could adapt that to'kids goto school if they can'.
Um, if a kid isn't going toschool, something must be
getting in their way.
(03:28):
So it's really easy to jump intoconsequences, which is
traditional parenting.
We'll reward you for going toschool in some way.
We will punish you if you don't.
That's incentivizing.
I think that misses the forestfor the trees.
We need to get at what's makingit hard for the kid to go to
school if we want to havereliable school attendance at
(03:50):
some point.
Leisa Reichelt (03:53):
Right.
Well, I don't think there's asingle thing that you've said
there that Louise or I coulddisagree with to be honest.
In the situation then where wehave parents whose children are
struggling to go to school,that's the behavior that's not
the problem.
And I imagine there might bemultiple problems contributing
to going to school.
What do we do?
What's the next step?
(04:13):
We're recognize that it's notthat the going to school isn't
the problem.
How do we start to work out whatthose problems are?
Ross Greene (04:21):
The first thing we gotta do is recognize that we
have a partner in all of this.
That's the kid who's havingdifficulty going to school.
They probably know more aboutwhat's making it hard for them
to go to school than anybody.
They are going to be our numberone source of information on
what's making it hard for themto go to school, which is why we
describe collaborative andproactive solutions or CPS as an
(04:41):
'ask the kid' model.
And we want to gatherinformation from the kid about
what's making it hard for themto go to school proactively, is
why another mantra of the CPSmodel is'don't be late'.
The ideal time to deal with akid who's having difficulty
going to school is not just asthe kid is having difficulty
going to school, horribletiming.
(05:02):
Uh, everybody's alreadyescalated and predictably so.
By the way, and this isn't thefirst time the kid has had
difficulty going to school, wealways say that an unsolved
problem is only a surprise thefirst time it happens after
that, it's not a surpriseanymore.
So nobody's shocked that thiskid is having difficulty going
to school.
Likelihood is that it's alongstanding problem, right?
(05:24):
And the fact that the kid isstill having difficulty going to
school is proof positive theproblem isn't solved yet.
But often it relates to'ask thekid', us adults feel that it is
our job to know what's gettingin the kid's way our job to know
what to do about it.
That often leads the mostimportant person out of the
(05:47):
equation, the kid.
So we have problems to solve andmuch better to solve them
collaboratively, meaning withthe full involvement of the kid,
proactively meaning not in theheat of the moment.
That's why we call the modelCollaborative and Proactive
Solutions.
Leisa Reichelt (06:03):
So that'd be sitting down on the weekends and
having this conversation ratherthan on a Monday morning.
Ross Greene (06:09):
Monday morning would be bad timing.
I like making appointments withkids to have a conversation with
them, and I like letting themknow what we want to talk with
'em about and understand better.
Those are actually the exactwords.
Because even if you're trying tosolve a problem proactively, if
you're springing the topic onthe kid, it still has a heat of
(06:33):
the moment feel to it, right?
I like to let kids know wereally would love to understand
a little bit better what'smaking it hard for you to go to
school?
Is there a time that we can findto talk about that?
And then you and the kid arepicking a time together and we
gotta get this done.
And by the way, there are somepeople who would say that doing
that takes a lot of time.
I always like to point out tothem, look how much time you're
(06:53):
spending trying to get to kid togo to school with that problem
still unsolved.
Leisa Reichelt (06:58):
Absolutely.
I know there would be a lot offolk who maybe didn't recognize
signs early enough.
and weren't able to engage amethod like this early enough.
And so at the point where theyare trying to talk to the child
about why they're struggling togo to school, the child is very
(07:19):
reluctant or possibly unable tosit down and have this
conversation.
Do you have any guidance on whatwe do in a situation?
I remember a point with my son,I'd say, could we sit down at
some point and talk aboutschool?
He'd just go, no, and shut thedoor in my face.
how do we approach that sort ofsituation?
Ross Greene (07:39):
Um, I wanna word it, well, there's something I'd
like to understand better, so I,don't know if that would've made
a difference with your son, butall we're trying to do is
understand.
Right.
And by the way, if a kid isinitially not particularly
responsive to the idea oftalking about it, can get
creative.
In the CPS model, there is sucha premium on hearing the voice
(08:01):
of the kid.
We know well that there are somekids who perhaps because it's a
difficult topic because theyhave lots of experience with
adults not being particularlyinterested in what they have to
say, or having their concerns bedismissed or disregarded.
You know, we're doing this forthe first time, they're not
jumping for joy and saying,finally you're gonna listen to
(08:23):
what I have to say.
They are skeptical and good forthem.
Right.
So we do have to get creative.
Sometimes if the kid will sitwith us, we can guess.
what might be hard about goingto school.
And they can, they don't evenhave to respond in words, they
can respond with fingers.
Right.
Some kids that I've worked withwere willing to text with me,
(08:46):
even though they were not allthat enthusiastic about talking
face to face.
Some kids were willing to talkwith me by Zoom with the cameras
off, but not with the camerason.
Some kids would fill out asurvey for me, reason I'm having
difficulty going to school is A,there are kids who are not kind
(09:08):
to me.
B, parts of the school day arevery difficult for me.
C, there are assignments thatare hard for me.
D there are teachers that arehard for me.
All they have to do is circle.
So I think that we can getcreative with that.
Creativity is not gonna see youthrough every single time, but
it will see you through a lot ofthe time.
if it doesn't see us through, Imight change the unsolved
(09:32):
problem to'difficulty talkingwith mom or dad about difficulty
going to school' and see ifthat's something the kid will
talk with us about.
Bottom line is we've gotta getthe conversation going.
And it might not be through thespoken word either because the
(09:52):
kid can talk but isn't, or inthe case of non-speaking kids,
because they can't.
we're very creative in thismodel, mostly because, you know,
it's so easy to just say,alright, I'll decide.
as the parent or as the adult,the kid's voice is critical.
We're not gonna be able to,we've proven solve this problem
(10:13):
without the kid, we're gonnahave to get creative.
Leisa Reichelt (10:17):
Yeah, just reflecting on what you're saying
about how sometimes you need tostep it back to saying the
problem isn't even about theproblems to do with going to
school.
The problem is I can't talk toyou about this
Ross Greene (10:26):
Correct.
Leisa Reichelt (10:27):
resonates a lot with me, I think, and I've found
that you have to keep going backand back and back to the root
cause to create something thatfeels safe enough to talk about
and then you kind of earn thetrust back really, don't you?
To be able to talk about theharder
Ross Greene (10:41):
things.
That's a very good point.
I know that difficulty going toschool may be the most pressing,
urgent issue but if a kid won'ttalk about that, they may talk
about why they don't usually eatwhat you've made for dinner.
At least we've gotten thetalking ball rolling.
Leisa Reichelt (11:02):
That kind of leads on, I think, to another
interesting question, which isthat a lot of the times with our
kids who are struggling to go toschool, it's not one problem.
It's a bundle of differentproblems.
I think we know of one parentwhose child had 70 different
reasons why, school waschallenging for them.
If we were doing one of yoursurveys and the child comes back
(11:23):
and responds and says, there's adozen different reasons why I
can't go to school.
What do we do?
What's our next step?
How do we start to unpick that?
Ross Greene (11:32):
We want to hear about all of them.
We want to keep track of all ofthem.
The fact that there are a lot ofthem doesn't mean that every
single one of them needs to besolved for the kid to be able to
go to school.
Some might solve by solvingothers.
We will, after we hear what allof those factors are, ask the
(11:55):
kid to prioritize for us, whichis getting in the way the most,
which is most important.
There are gonna be circumstancesin which we have to address all
12.
that's not necessarily the norm,but we take'em as they come.
We want to hear about all ofthem.
And by the way, that's anothergood strategy.
We don't have to talk aboutthem, I just want to know what
(12:19):
they are.
You don't have to tell me inwords.
You could write it down, text itto me.
If we've got a kid who's beenhaving difficulty going to
school for a very long time andhasn't been communicating with
us for a very long time, this isall not gonna happen in one fell
swoop just because we adultshave taken a different approach.
(12:40):
That's what's amazing.
people think that this approachmeans that you've brought out
your magic wand, right?
It's the CPS magic wand.
Nope.
We are still entering into thisunder the same circumstances
that are the reason we needed itin the first place, right?
And we're gonna have tounderstand that.
The kid hasn't talked about itfor a long time.
Just because we're trying adifferent approach, doesn't mean
(13:02):
they're gonna start singing.
Leisa Reichelt (13:05):
Yeah, I think that's.
an important message, Because ifwe sit down and try to attempt
this and it doesn't work thefirst time doesn't mean that the
methods failed.
It means we need to
Ross Greene (13:15):
No.
Leisa Reichelt (13:15):
to our creative box of ways that we can approach
this.
Ross Greene (13:18):
Yeah.
Well, a kid who's not talking isgiving us information, right.
We're paying attention to atwhat point did the kid start not
talking?
Was it when I, asked him or heror them if they would sit down
with me so that I couldunderstand something better?
(13:39):
Was it when I told them what thetopic was?
Was it when I started theproblem solving process?
At what point did they balk thattells me, all right, we've just
hit a pressure point.
Now, right at that moment, wecan say if the kid is still
there with us, tell me what justhappened.
(13:59):
I noticed that question causedyou to stop.
Right.
So there's bottom line isthere's all kinds of nuances
when it comes to having anyhuman being, kids included,
having any human being talkabout something that's difficult
for them or that they may beembarrassed or ashamed about, or
(14:19):
something that's painful forthem.
This is any human being, justbecause we're trying a different
approach doesn't mean they'regonna start talking right away.
This is the empathic part of themodel, right?
A kid who's going to school, akid who's having difficulty
going to school is in distress,Whatever their demeanor is
(14:41):
they're in distress and we needto approach them as if they're
in distress.
a kid who's not talking isanother indicator of something.
Not always clear what it is.
Maybe the kid will tell me whatthe something is.
Maybe the kid will drop a fewhints.
Whatever they're dropping, I'vegot info that's gonna help me
(15:02):
the next time.
Leisa Reichelt (15:05):
Amazing.
Okay, often talk aboutresilience for our kids, but
maybe it's resilience for us ingently trying to have these
conversations and take theinformation that's being put
down as it happens.
Ross Greene (15:15):
The co-regulation folks may have a point good to
stay on top of your ownemotions.
Let's face it, if you have a kidwho's having difficulty going to
school, you have some emotionsaround that as well.
You are worried about your kid.
You may be worried about gettinginto trouble.
You may be embarrassed, whateveryou are, if those things come
(15:39):
through too powerfully yourkid's not gonna talk to you.
Because emotions are too strongand their emotions are strong,
and now communication is muchmore difficult.
So as the leader of thisinformation gathering process,
we have to steel ourselves andsay, let me do my best to put my
emotions around this on theshelf, my impatience around this
(16:01):
on the shelf, because I've beendealing with this for a very
long time.
Can I put those on the shelf?
Or do I need a neutral thirdparty to get this going for me?
If I really don't feel confidentthat I can put my emotions on
the shelf, or, if there's somuch water over the dam over
this issue that I really don'tthink there's much chance my kid
(16:24):
will talk to me about it.
Can we find a neutral thirdparty?
And that doesn't necessarilyhave to be a mental health
clinician.
It can be a neutral third partywho the kid trusts.
Bottom line, we need info.
Right.
We need info on the road tosolving this problem.
We need info first.
Whoever the kid is comfortableproviding that info to, we'll
(16:48):
it.
Leisa Reichelt (16:50):
Well, imagine that we have managed to start to
get some info from our kids, andwe have a sense of what some of
the problems are and what'sgoing on.
What's our next step?
We, know some of the problems.
We know roughly where thepriorities are.
what do we do now?
Ross Greene (17:04):
Alright, as many of your listeners may not know,
solving a problemcollaboratively is a three step
process.
And once again, not justcollaboratively, proactively,
you really don't wanna be doingthis in the heat of the moment.
the first step is called theempathy step this is where we're
gathering information from thekid.
Why is it called the empathystep?
Because it involves listening,which is the purest form of
(17:26):
empathy and curiosity.
The second step is called theDefine Adult Concerns step.
This is where adults areentering their concerns into
consideration, basically relatedin this case, to why we think
it's important that the kid goto school.
Adult concerns usually fall intoone or both of two categories.
(17:48):
How the unsolved problemsaffecting the kid, how the
unsolved problems affectingother people.
In the case of this particularunsolved problem, most of them
are probably gonna be related tohow it's affecting the kid, but
I can see a place where it couldbe affecting other people too.
Then third step is theinvitation step.
And this is where we arecollaborating on a solution.
(18:12):
The solution has to meet twocriteria.
It's gotta be realistic.
Both parties gotta be able to dowhat they're agreeing to do, and
this is even more important,it's gotta be mutually
satisfactory.
Mutually satisfactory means thesolution has to address the
concerns of both parties.
This problem will not be solvedunless we have a solution that
(18:36):
addresses the concerns of bothparties.
Now in the case of the empathystep, these are probably
concerns we didn't know as muchabout as we needed to, which
means they weren't beingaddressed.
Solutions that we adults come tounilaterally on the basis of
minimal or no information fromthe kid are not going to address
(18:59):
the kid's concerns, which is whythose solutions typically do not
work.
We don't know what the kids'concerns are.
Their concerns could notpossibly have been addressed if
we didn't identify them.
Solution also has to address theadult's concerns, you know,
unilateral solutions, solutionsadults impose are solutions that
(19:19):
would address their concerns,but not the kids.
This is a solution that has tobe mutually satisfactory.
We gotta address the concerns ofboth parties, but we're not
gonna address the concerns ofboth parties unless we know what
they are first.
Leisa Reichelt (19:36):
It feels as though in the school context
there's almost a thirdcollaborative partner that needs
to be at play, which is theschool, because a lot of the
issues that kids are dealingwith are to do with expectations
that are imposed by school, orsituations that are in place by
school, where we need the schoolto partner with us to change the
(19:58):
circumstances so it can make iteasier to solve the problems.
How should we be thinking aboutthat?
Should we be thinking about theschool as being a part of this
process?
Or as a parent acting as anadvocate with the school?
Have you got some thoughts onthat?
Ross Greene (20:12):
Great question.
In the empathy step, and I'mstill gonna go back to the three
steps'cause that's what's gonnabe critical.
Don't know if we need the schoolfolks there for the empathy step
It's entirely possible thatthere's somebody at school who
the kid feels most comfortabletalking to.
So the school may be involvedright outta the gate, The Define
Adult Concern step.
(20:33):
I don't know if we need theschool for that.
I have a feeling the concerns ofthe school are gonna be fairly
similar to the concerns of theadults as it relates to the kid
not showing up.
This is all strategy Who needsto be involved?
We are almost definitely gonnaneed the school folks to help us
out in the invitation, but Iwon't know how much help we're
(20:57):
gonna need from the school folksuntil I hear what the kids'
concerns are in the empathystep.
But the fact that this isoccurring on their watch at
school tells me it's a nearcertainty we're gonna need the
school folks to be involved inhelping us come up with
solutions that will address theconcerns we've identified in
(21:18):
those first two steps.
I am thinking you are about toask, although you might not be,
I'm not a mind reader and trynot to be.
What if the school won'tcooperate?
Well, they have a student who'snot showing up.
They could blame the parents ifthey wanted to, but this is an
everybody unsolved problem, andthey are on the hook for meeting
(21:41):
the kid where they're at.
If they have a kid who's notshowing up, they're still on the
hook.
They can point to the home folksall they want if that's their
modus operandi.
Right?
Some schools recognize, no, itmust be something we're doing,
but we, we can't get anythingout of the kid about that.
So if you've got info, we'lltake it.
(22:02):
Right.
And some schools are busypointing the finger.
A lot of this depends on what wehear in the empathy step.
We need the school folks andthey're still on the hook from
meeting the kid where they'reat.
They have a student who's notshowing up.
They gotta help out.
That's kind of the law
Leisa Reichelt (22:22):
Yeah,
Louise Roger (22:23):
Yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (22:23):
as though the experience many of us have is
that it's much easier for themto blame the parent or blame the
child than it is for them tothink about how they can
potentially make changes, whichis not entirely true.
lots of schools do try lots ofthings to help
Ross Greene (22:38):
But here's the interesting thing.
Remember, school folks arefrustrated too, because they've
probably been trying stuff too.
But if what everybody's beentrying has been in the absence
of information from the kid,Then this is what we might call
the crap shoot approach tointervention, right?
We don't even know what we'reaiming at because we haven't
(22:59):
received any information fromthe kid about what's actually
getting in their way, So a lotof solutions that have gone over
the dam, we might say aresolutions that what we call
uninformed, Uninformed solutionsgenerally don't work because we
haven't done the empathy stepwith the kid yet, so we don't
yet know what's getting in theirway.
(23:21):
Frustration sometimes lendsitself to blaming, but if we're
able to come to the school folksarmed with information about
what's actually getting in thekids' way.
I find that a lot of the blamingthen ends, We're blaming the kid
or the parents because Timmy isbullying our kid on the school
(23:45):
bus.
Why are we blaming anybody forthat?
that's a problem we need tosolve, right?
We're blaming the parentsbecause Timmy is having
difficulty completing the doubledigit division problems on the
worksheet in math.
Why are we blaming anybody forthat?
So I find that once we get thatinformation from the kid, we're
not guessing anymore.
We're probably not blaminganymore.
(24:07):
We just have some problems weneed to solve.
That information from the kid iscritical.
Otherwise, we're still guessingand often still blaming.
Leisa Reichelt (24:15):
So I'm imagining we've got a list of things that
could be everything from, Ican't handle wearing the school
shoes that you want me to wearto school.
I need, something differentabout uniforms.
To, another really common one isI don't have somebody at school
who I can trust to actuallylisten to me and hear me when
there's something wrong.
to, lunchtimes are nightmare andI can't go out and be in that
(24:37):
unstructured, noisy, smellytime.
I need to do something differentat lunchtime.
So there's a whole collection ofdifferent things that we've got
going on.
you're saying that, the parentmight be the go-between, between
school and child.
Should the child be activelyinvolved with talking with the
school about this, or we'll justplay it by ear a little bit.
Ross Greene (24:57):
Play it by ear, but if the child's able, it would be
better.
I'm not gonna push it if thechild is not comfortable doing
this, but it would be better.
This is not gonna be what itlooks like initially probably it
would be better if the childcould communicate with the
school folks directly,especially if they're saying
they don't feel like there'sanybody for them to talk to at
(25:19):
school.
It's gonna be very hard for aparent to address all the
factors without engaging theschool folks.
The hope is that somebodyemerges from these school folks
side of things to be somebodywho shows that they can listen,
show that they can understand,and shows, this is big, that
(25:42):
they are as invested in gettingthe kids' concerns addressed
they're in getting their ownconcerns addressed.
We tend to be pretty egocentricabout our concerns.
That often causes us not toaddress the concerns of the
other person.
This process, it has to bemutually satisfactory.
The concerns of both partieshave to be addressed.
Often a school folk emerges.
(26:05):
I never know who it's be.
That could start becoming thego-to person.
And if the kid starts beingcomfortable talking to the go-to
person, then we can slowly butsurely as the kid lets us know
that they are able start totransfer some of the talking
about school to the folks whoare actually in a better
(26:26):
position to do things aboutschool than the parent.
But how long is it gonna take?
All bets are off.
Leisa Reichelt (26:34):
Sometimes
Ross Greene (26:34):
it's way faster than people think it's gonna be,
and sometimes it's as slow aspeople think it's gonna be.
but just because kid/schoolcommunication isn't seamless
yet, doesn't mean we can't startmoving on addressing many of the
kids' concerns.
This is all a process.
(26:55):
if we can start addressing someof the kids' concerns, you may
not have to address all of themand some might solve by solving
others.
Bottom line is, at this point,we take it as it comes, and we
see how we're doing.
Leisa Reichelt (27:11):
The other thing that people will be very
familiar with from CPS, I thinkis the plan A, plan B, plan C.
Ross Greene (27:19):
well plan A is where you're solving a problem
unilaterally.
Probably been there and donethat.
Louise Roger (27:25):
Yes.
Ross Greene (27:25):
Plan B is what we've been talking about.
It's where you're solving aproblem collaboratively.
Plan C is where you're puttingsome expectations on hold, at
least for now.
That's big because if this kidhas 17 different factors that
are making it difficult for themto go to school, we're not gonna
be able to address'em all atonce.
While we're gonna solve as manyas we can, we may have to put
(27:46):
some of them on hold for now.
Right.
That's interesting because uscaregivers, whether it's a
parent or somebody at school,we're not accustomed to putting
expectations on hold.
We think it means we're givingin.
We think it means we're givingup.
It means neither of thosethings.
What it means is that you'reprioritizing, you're recognizing
(28:08):
you can't solve everything atonce.
And it took a long time forthose problems to accumulate and
it's gonna take a little whilefor us to chip our way through
'em.
So, some problems need to be puton hold, at least for now.
If we have a kid who's engagedin the process, showing movement
toward going to school becausesome of the top priority
(28:29):
problems have been solved.
I find that most adults arewilling to put some things on
hold, and here's the bottom lineabout Plan C.
The kid isn't meeting theexpectation anyway, so all we're
really doing is making itofficial, and we're saying you
don't have to meet theexpectation the expectation
(28:50):
wasn't being met in the firstplace.
We're not giving up on theexpectation, we're just
prioritizing.
one of my, one of my trainerswas telling me a story about a
school principal.
I'm gonna be doing a keynote atthe school, at the beginning of
the school year next year.
we're working with some of theschools already in the school
(29:12):
system teaching them how to doPlan B and about Plan C and the
principal of the school said,make sure you tell Ross that
when he is doing the keynote, hetalks a lot about Plan C.
Plan C is not how most adults,it's not in their DNA.
(29:33):
Sometimes school folks need tobe given permission to ease up
on some expectations whileyou're working on others.
But here's a principal saying,please talk about Plan C when
you do your keynote he knows hisstaff and knows that plan C is
hard for a lot of people, butthat's the principal giving his
(29:55):
staff permission to put someexpectations on hold because
it's in the best interest of thekid.
I'd call that meeting kids wherethey're at, and that's the
definition of good teaching.
Louise Roger (30:08):
Thank you for that too though, because I think a
lot of us parents find ourselveshaving to plan C a lot of the
expectations around schoolattendance and, and of course,
uh, for people who aren'tfamiliar with thinking about
this as underlying difficultiesthat we've got to solve and that
we can't do it all at once.
it can look from the outside,like this is somehow permissive
(30:31):
parenting, whereas we are beingstrategic.
In selecting the tasks andexpectations that we're gonna
work on.
So thank you very much forgiving us some context around
that.
Ross Greene (30:43):
You may still be on the hook for being accused of
being permissive and passive.
I don't know if we can get ridof that.
All we can do is explain whatwe're doing to people.
And quite frankly what I hearfrom a lot of people about the
CPS model is that it makes a lotof sense.
This is common sense.
Why would you load a kid up withexpectations that you already
know they can't meet?
What's the point of that?
(31:06):
So it's easy to stereotypeparents as passive, permissive.
That doesn't mean it's right.
All you can do is explainyourself to people and hope that
their minds and ears are wideopen.
Leisa Reichelt (31:16):
That's beautiful.
Louise Roger (31:18):
Thank you.
Leisa Reichelt (31:19):
I was thinking, we
Louise Roger (31:20):
I.
Leisa Reichelt (31:20):
but we've framed this up a lot as like the
problem is going to school andI'm sure there are a lot of
people who are, kids aren'tattending school, but who are
still achieving an education,who might be screaming out from,
you know, from their headphoneslistening, going, you framed the
problem wrong.
Like, the problem should be, howcan my child learn and become
(31:42):
educated?
I just wonder if there'ssomething that you would reflect
on in that in terms of likemaking sure that we've actually
shaped the problem the rightway.
Ross Greene (31:53):
Depends what your expectation is.
If it is your expectation thatyour kid learn at school, then
difficulty going to school is agood conversation starter.
It's a well worded, unsolvedproblem.
If you find out during theempathy step that there are
hurdles that are, this is notgonna happen, and I wouldn't
(32:18):
leap to that conclusion tooquickly, then we're not looking
for the kid to go to schoolanymore, we're looking for them
to learn, So it all depends onwhere people are in the journey.
If parents still feel likeschool is where their kid is
(32:39):
going to be educated and that'stheir expectation, then that
wording is still fine, that'sstill an okay entry point.
Right.
But if they've basically decidedthat's not how you need to
learn, we're not mandating thatyou go to school, but it is our
expectation that you learn.
Let's talk about what that lookslike.
You've just changed yourexpectation.
If you've changed yourexpectation, you've changed the
(33:00):
unsolved problem.
And the truth is, if your newexpectation is one that the kid
can meet, you don't even have anunsolved problem.
There's nothing to talk aboutanymore.
But it all depends on what theparental expectation is for how
their kid is going to learn, Ifthey're still thinking the
learning is going to take placein school, then that's still the
unsolved problem.
Leisa Reichelt (33:20):
Interesting.
In my mind, I'm trying to jugglethe challenge of going into a
problem without dictating myterms understanding the parental
expectation and unpacking thosetwo things.
Does that make sense?
Ross Greene (33:36):
I don't know that I would say having an expectation
is synonymous with dictatingterms, an expectation's an
expectation, dictating termsfeels more to me like the parent
has decided here's what thesolution is.
Right?
I'm dictating the terms of yougoing to school.
(34:01):
That's different than saying,I've noticed you've been having
difficulty going to school.
What's up?
Now our ears are wide open.
Dictating terms feels to me likewe're not listening at all.
We're just telling the kid theway it's gonna be.
I do think that there is apretty significant difference
between having an expectationand dictating the terms.
(34:23):
if you have an expectation andit's not being met, this is an
ask the kid model.
You're not dictating anythinganymore.
You're gathering information andyou're solving those problems
collaboratively.
Leisa Reichelt (34:33):
this might sound a little bit dumb, but am I
solving those problems with theexpectation that I will achieve
my expectation?
Or is part of it that I'mwilling to shift on the
expectation that I go into itwith as well.
Ross Greene (34:48):
We will find out.
But here's the interestingthing.
You had to have the expectationof your kid going to school to
have it be unmet.
Bottom line is if your kid'sgoing to school without issue,
you don't have an unsolvedproblem.
So you had to have theexpectation that the kid go to
school, and your kid had to behaving difficulty meeting that
expectation for thisconversation to take place.
(35:09):
Otherwise, there's no point inhaving the conversation.
Right.
You're finding out in theempathy step what's making it
hard for the kid to meet theexpectation.
Light bulbs are going on.
Generally speaking, we'retelling people be prepared for
surprises in the empathy step.
When you discover that what youthought was getting in the kid's
(35:30):
way is not what's getting in thekid's way.
So we're going into the empathystep completely open-minded, no
dictating of terms here.
Right, you already had theexpectation that the kid go to
school, the kid's already havingdifficulty going.
So that stuff is sort of thatset the stage for the
conversation.
(35:50):
But now you are finding outwhat's getting in your kid's way
and your kid, in the next step,is finding out what your
concerns are.
The problem is solved oncewhat's getting in the way for
the kid have been addressed andyour concerns have been
addressed.
Now here's the interestingthing, in the empathy step, I've
seen expectations change, peoplehear about what's getting in the
(36:15):
kids' way.
I've seen this happen.
They're hearing things thatmakes them say, you know what?
I think I need to modify myexpectation because what I'm
hearing tells me I should nothave that expectation.
I need to think about what myexpectation is now.
(36:36):
Right.
Lemme give that some thoughtbecause I don't know if I wanna
have the expectation that I had,that you were having difficulty
meeting.
Now that I know what I know.
Right.
So bottom line it's not uncommonin life for us to gather
information about something weknew nothing about.
And then it gives us pause andmakes us say, oh my, I don't
(36:59):
know if where I was coming, letme put it this way.
Where I was coming from was notinformed by what I know now.
I need to give this somethought.
That's not typical, but it'salso not that unusual, right?
What's been missing is theinformation.
We stuck with our expectation inthe absence of information.
(37:23):
Once we have that informationabout what's been getting in the
way for the kid, we have theright to modify our expectation.
We also have the right to stickwith it, right?
We also have the right to dropit completely, right?
I've seen adults in the midst ofthe empathy step go, I don't
care about this anymore.
(37:43):
Now that I know what I know, Imight have to make some
decisions about what myexpectations are for how my kid
will learn.
All of this comes out of thewash in the empathy step.
the reason for that is we'refinally understanding what's
been getting in the kid's wayall along, probably for a very
long time.
Leisa Reichelt (38:00):
The other thing that makes me think as well is
that this process helps revealour expectations to ourselves.
I think a lot of the time wehave these expectations.
We don't even know we have.
Because they're so built intosocietal expectations, and so
when our kids run into adifficulty with them, it almost
reveals the expectation to us,and we get the opportunity then
to question it for ourselves.
Ross Greene (38:22):
Well, I think that the expectation's usually clear.
Why we have it can beinteresting.
Right.
So the whole process is, it'samazing that three simple steps
can be such a, quite frankly,earth shattering process for
people.
(38:42):
But to tell you the truth,that's what happens when we
listen to each other.
That's what happens when we'recurious.
That's what happens when we findout what's really getting in a
kid's way.
When we put our assumptions onthe side, put power on the side,
and finally listen, it's a thingof beauty.
Leisa Reichelt (39:00):
Amazing.
if parents are wanting moreinformation about how to get
started with CPS, where wouldyou recommend that they start?
Ross Greene (39:11):
The Lives in the Balance website, the nonprofit
that I founded Lives In TheBalance has a vast, and I mean
vast array of free resources toorient people to the model.
Um.
My book Lost at School has avery good section about
(39:32):
home/school communication.
And the person who I amreferring to some in that
section is someone named SaraLawrence-Lightfoot, who wrote a
book called The EssentialConversation that should be
required reading for everyparent and educator.
And it very wise book itbasically says, you know what,
(39:56):
we all have expertise on thiskid.
School folks have expertise thatus home folks don't have.
Home folks have expertise thatthe school folks don't have.
The fact that we are in conflictwith each other, even though we
both want what's best for thiskid, is like most conflict that
occurs in this world.
both unfortunate unnecessary andvery counterproductive.
(40:17):
We both want what's best for thekid.
The fact that we have differentperspectives should not be a
deal breaker.
The fact that we have disparateperspectives means that we have
perspectives to reconcile basedon our own unique experience of
this kid.
Let's try to come together onthis If the kid is providing us
(40:37):
with information about what'sgetting in their way, that
process will be greatlyfacilitated because now we're
not just guessing with eachother and pointing at each
other.
We're getting information fromthe kid about what's actually
getting in their way, whichmakes it clear that all the
pointing at all the guessingdidn't really do as much good in
the first place.
Leisa Reichelt (40:59):
Yeah, and I think also just making sure that
all parties are on board withthat philosophy of kids do well
if they can, is massive gamechanger as well.
Ross Greene (41:07):
no doubt.
Louise Roger (41:09):
Thank you so much for joining us today, Dr.
Greenee.
Ross Greene (41:12):
My pleasure.
This is what I do.
Louise Roger (41:16):
your collaborative and proactive solutions model
is, is truly transformative andit's been instrumental in
shaping our, our philosophy atSchool Can't Australia.
So thank you.
Ross Greene (41:27):
my pleasure.
I'm glad you've embraced it.
Leisa Reichelt (41:29):
Well, what a joy it is to talk to Dr.
Greene.
His work on Compassionate andProactive Solutions has been
such a game changer for manyparents who are looking for more
compassionate ways to work withtheir kids and looking for
techniques that actually workand not for the first time on
this podcast, that message oftaking the time and effort to
really build the trust, buildthe connection, and build that
relationship between parent andchild comes through so clearly.
(41:53):
I put some links in the episodenotes to the Lives in the
Balance website, where as Dr.
Greene says, there is anabsolute mountain of free
resources available to supportyou on your CPS journey.
I've also popped a link into TheEssential Conversation book that
he's recommended as a essentialread for all parents.
If you found this podcasthelpful, please do take a moment
to share, subscribe, maybe evengive us a rating or review.
(42:15):
This really does help us get ourpodcast in front of more people
who have School Can't kids, andwho haven't yet found our
community or the informationthat we share.
If you have some feedback forus, or maybe you would like to
share your own School Can'tlived experience, which we would
absolutely love, you can drop usan email to
schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com.
And finally, if you are a parentor carer in Australia and you
(42:38):
are feeling distressed, pleaseremember you can always call the
Parent Helpline in your state.
A link with the number to callis in the episode notes.
Thank you again for listening,and we will talk again soon.
Take care.
Popular Podcasts
True Crime Tonight
If you eat, sleep, and breathe true crime, TRUE CRIME TONIGHT is serving up your nightly fix. Five nights a week, KT STUDIOS & iHEART RADIO invite listeners to pull up a seat for an unfiltered look at the biggest cases making headlines, celebrity scandals, and the trials everyone is watching. With a mix of expert analysis, hot takes, and listener call-ins, TRUE CRIME TONIGHT goes beyond the headlines to uncover the twists, turns, and unanswered questions that keep us all obsessed—because, at TRUE CRIME TONIGHT, there’s a seat for everyone. Whether breaking down crime scene forensics, scrutinizing serial killers, or debating the most binge-worthy true crime docs, True Crime Tonight is the fresh, fast-paced, and slightly addictive home for true crime lovers.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.