June 23, 2025 • 39 mins
This week we’re talking with Emma Brooksby, Managing Director at U&I Educational Partners, about the demands school places on executive function.
Emma, who has ADHD and a background as a school principal, shares her journey and offers insights into how executive function challenges manifest in educational settings and ways to support students who have executive function challenges.
We explore strategies to help kids succeed despite executive function challenges and Emma also highlights alternative educational pathways and resources available.
00:00 Welcome to the School Can't Experience Podcast
00:55 Meet Emma Brooksby: From Principal to Advocate
01:20 Emma's Journey with ADHD and Executive Function
02:16 COVID-19 and the Opportunity for Educational Change
05:22 Founding U & I Educational Partners
06:14 Understanding Executive Function
09:22 Impact of Executive Dysfunction in School
14:01 Common Executive Function Challenges
07:17 Supporting Kids with Executive Function Issues
33:59 Alternative Educational Settings
37:34 Resources for Parents and Caregivers
38:27 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Recommended Resources
- U&I Educational Partners - https://www.uandi.com.au/
- Goblin Tools, Magic To Do - https://goblin.tools/
- Harvard Centre on the Developing Child - https://developingchild.harvard.edu/
- Learning to Plan and be Organised (book) by Kathleen Nadeau - https://www.amazon.com.au/Learning-Plan-Be-Organized-Executive/dp/1433822172
- School Can’t Australia Facebook Community - https://www.facebook.com/groups/schoolphobiaschoolrefusalaustralia
- Make a donation to School Can’t Australia - https://www.schoolcantaustralia.com.au/get-involved
If you are a parent of carer in Australia and experiencing distress, please call Lifeline on 13 11 14 or contact the Parent Help Line. - https://kidshelpline.com.au/parents/issues/how-parentline-can-help-you
You can contact us to volunteer to share your School Can't story or some feedback via email on schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com
Disclaimer
The content of this podcast is based on personal lived experiences and is shared for informational and storytelling purposes only. It should not be treated as medical, psychological, or professional advice under any circumstances. If you have concerns about your health or well-being, please seek guidance from a doctor, therapist, or other qualified professional.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leisa Reichelt (00:05):
Hello and welcome to the School Can't
Experience Podcast.
I'm Leisa Reichelt, and thispodcast is brought to you by the
School Can't Australiacommunity.
Caring for a young person who isstruggling to attend school can
be a stressful and isolatingexperience, but you are not
alone.
Thousands of parents acrossAustralia and many more around
the world face similarchallenges and experiences every
(00:26):
day.
Did you know that executivefunction or dysfunction can have
a really big impact on our kids'experience of school?
Well, we are joined today byEmma Brooksby, Managing Director
at U&I Educational Partners.
She's an ADHDer and a formerschool principal.
And Emma is gonna help usunderstand some of those
challenges better, as well asthe opportunities to offer
(00:49):
better support at school.
Emma, thank you so much forjoining us on our podcast.
Emma Brooksby (00:54):
Thank you for having me.
Leisa Reichelt (00:56):
I was wondering if you can start us off by just
telling us a little bit aboutthe story of Emma, what's
brought you on your journey towho you are and what you're
doing today?
Emma Brooksby (01:06):
Sure.
Thank you very much for havingme.
I'm here because I used to be aschool principal in Victoria, a
primary school principal, and Iworked with the Department of
Education for 16, 17 years.
Don't hold that against me.
So, I was diagnosed ADHDinformally in my early thirties.
(01:26):
I'm now late forties, and Ididn't take any form of
medication until I was in myearly forties.
I started to struggle withexecutive functioning and
managing the role of principalwhen I started that role and so
I realized I should probably getsome support for the ADHD that
I'd been told that I had.
(01:48):
So, formal diagnosis,
Leisa Reichelt (01:50):
you were diagnosed when you were still
teaching?
Emma Brooksby (01:52):
yeah, yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (01:53):
then after you'd been diagnosed, you'd been
carrying on with that, and you
Emma Brooksby (01:57):
Yep,
Leisa Reichelt (01:58):
to become a principal
Emma Brooksby (02:00):
yep.
Leisa Reichelt (02:00):
then hit your ceiling
Emma Brooksby (02:02):
yeah, the wheels started to fall off for me in
terms of executive functioningand coping with the demands of
the role.
So, I got medicated and it wasabsolutely fantastic for me.
It worked really well.
The first one didn't work sogreat, but now working really
well.
So when COVID hit in 2020,particularly being in Victoria,
we were subjected to some prettysevere lockdowns.
(02:23):
I saw a real shift for whatcould have been for the
education system.
And I really sort of went, thisis fantastic for some of our
people, particularly myneurodivergent kin.
A lot of them experienced greatsuccess in the remote learning
and the way that we did it.
I thought there was a realopportunity, going forward, but
we might see some big systemchange.
Everybody kind of knew thateverything was gonna be
(02:44):
different we were quite quickoff the mark at the school to
set things up.
I knew we had to be reallyflexible for our community.
So we basically threw everythingout and the way that we
approached it was to have thekids dip in and out as they
needed to, but see the teachersevery single day.
We had a fair few students onsite and that was something that
(03:05):
we decided as a leadership teamwas gonna be good for our, for
our kids.
Being safe, of course.
But it was that curriculum shiftthat gave freedom for our
students in the way that theypresented things, talked about
things, engaged and the level ofengagement and some, on the face
of it weren't online a lot, butthey did check in every single
(03:28):
day, twice a day.
Regular work was coming inthrough Google Docs and online
and we saw some of our kidsreally thrive, because of the
freedom to express themselves intheir own home, use their pets
as props, you know, be in theircomfy clothes.
And there was a real opportunityfor the system of schooling to
(03:49):
change and learn from it andgrow.
For me, it was exciting that wemight see significant change
because the sole reason Idecided to pursue the
principalship was leading aschool.
I thought, you know, realchange.
Was I perfect?
No, I was absolutely notperfect.
But I wanted to make change forthe betterment of everybody.
(04:11):
In a system as big as it is, Icouldn't do it.
After the end of 2020 and 2021and the lockdowns finished.
We as a system in Victoriaresumed the status quo, it was
come on kids, back you come,come on teachers, back you come.
It didn't matter how well itworked for some people,
including staff, we learnednothing.
(04:32):
We changed nothing.
Now other people may have, I'monly talking about my experience
here.
Mid 2021, I decided that theprincipalship and, teaching and
leading as a whole wasn't for meanymore, but I knew I had to, I
knew I had to do something Istill wanted to be part of my
(04:52):
community.
I still wanted to be making adifference and doing things.
I really want to help myneurodivergent kin to not
experience the life that I haveexperienced.
I didn't want the nextgeneration and generations after
that to come through not havingtheir needs met and thinking
(05:13):
they are less than.
Or thinking that they need to besomeone other than they are.
I started U I EducationalPartners, and we work with
neurodivergent young people,children and adults.
We bridge the gap between alliedhealth and schools.
(05:34):
We advocate for our people inschool settings for reasonable
adjustments we work one-on-onethrough NDIS capacity building,
understanding ourselves asneurodivergent people and how we
experience the world and how,we're not disabled.
There are some systems in oursociety that make things
disabling for us.
(05:56):
Making sure that the negativefeedback we get is tempered by
the positives and the things weknow about ourselves and how we
learn.
Removing those barriers tolearning and life is what U I
Educational Partners is about.
And building up the toolkit sothose barriers are removed.
Leisa Reichelt (06:13):
Okay, fantastic.
So we wanted to focus onexecutive function today, Emma.
We know lots of kids havedifferent kinds of executive
function struggles, particularlyif they're in that neurodiverse
community.
And that can cause somechallenges at school.
What do we actually mean when wetalk about executive function?
(06:35):
What is it?
Emma Brooksby (06:36):
Well, it's the set of skills, that enable us to
plan, solve problems and adaptto changing environments.
So really there's threeoverarching areas of executive
functioning, and that's workingmemory, cognitive flexibility
and inhibition control.
And within each big area, thereare subsets within it.
(06:57):
So within working memory, we'retalking about retaining
information, manipulatinginformation, connecting
information, and focusing.
In cognitive flexibility, we'retalking about switching between
tasks, adapting to change,problem solving and perspective
taking.
In inhibition control we'retalking about self-regulation,
delay in gratification, taskinitiation and emotional
(07:19):
regulation.
It develops over time and thevast majority of it should be
developed by age 12, but willextend certain aspects the depth
and complexity of each bit asyour brain develops, will
continue into late teens up to30 years of age.
The research is ever evolving aswe learn about our brains
(07:41):
flexibility and plasticity ofit.
Leisa Reichelt (07:43):
Yeah, I was going to ask about that.
We have neurodivergence in ourfamily and in various
assessments that have been doneat at different points.
It's like, well, this is yourscore for working memory and
it's a low centile.
What do I do with the fact thatthere's a low working memory
situation?
Is our goal to think about howwe sort of scaffold that
(08:06):
shortcoming?
I feel like I'm using all thewrong words, or are we trying to
lean into neuroplasticity andimprove performance?
What are we doing?
Emma Brooksby (08:15):
Yeah,
Leisa Reichelt (08:16):
here?
Emma Brooksby (08:16):
I, it can absolutely be improved.
Um, I don't ever think the goalis to be, perfect in any way,
shape or form, I know myexecutive functioning, planning
an organization I'm great with.
I can make as many plans as youlike, but executing those plans
through task initiation, I'mrubbish, absolute rubbish.
(08:37):
So it depends, I guess on theindividual.
So you can say that workingmemory is really poor and often
on the, the Whisk and whatnot itcan show that.
There are so many ways to buildit up and we'll get into that,
you can absolutely at any age.
Harvard's Center on theDeveloping Child, they have a
range of things you can downloadfor nothing, about enhancing and
(08:59):
practicing executive functionskills from infancy through
adulthood.
There are ways to improve itacross the lifespan, if you need
to.
So if it isn't impacting theindividual, then the score
doesn't matter.
It's when it's impacting theindividual and the people they
love and care about that it's aproblem.
Leisa Reichelt (09:21):
Yeah.
That makes a lot of sense.
Kids who are experiencingexecutive functioning
challenges, how is that going toimpact in the school
environment?
What are we gonna see typically?
Emma Brooksby (09:37):
Executive dysfunction, particularly
challenges with working memoryand cognitive flexibility can
hugely impact our kids' abilityto navigate the demands of
school.
So we're talking aboutdifficulties with emotional
regulation and behavioralcontrol as well.
It's can make it hard to copewith the whole nature of
schooling.
So when you're looking at SchoolCan't and why our people might
(10:03):
be having School Can't issues,It can impact an ability to
remember instructions, to plantasks, switch between tasks, and
that can lead to frustration andsend your anxiety through the
roof.
Making it harder to focus, tocomplete assignments.
It's compounding issue, right?
And when we're talking abouteven difficulty with transitions
(10:26):
and an unstructured environment,schools can be unpredictable.
Your teachers change teachersleave, have families, all that
kind of thing.
Even activities and socialsituations, kids leave, kids
arrive, adapting to changethat's that cognitive
flexibility.
And if adapting to change ishard, that unpredictable
environment, when nothing isconstant except the rule that
(10:47):
you can't play with sticks, youranxiety is gonna go through the
absolute roof and then we've gotthe academic challenges.
The academic demands are beingat school planning,
organization, time management.
The executive functioning skillsare all assumed that they're
there and that we have thembecause they develop and they're
inadvertently, they're notintentionally taught in schools.
(11:08):
Executive functioning skillsaren't intentionally taught
anywhere because they developover time and developmentally so
we don't know there's a problemuntil there's a problem.
Leisa Reichelt (11:21):
So that might account for why it's not
uncommon for a kid to hit yearseven, year eight, and they hit
their exec
Emma Brooksby (11:30):
functioning.
Leisa Reichelt (11:30):
because of all the additional demands for
organization and changemanagement,
Emma Brooksby (11:35):
But this is why In all those stages of
schooling, when you look at prepto two, they say it's a big
transition from year two to yearthree, because you go from
having communal shared resourcesto having a locker tub or
something like that, where thosekids start to be responsible for
their own belongings.
Now, ADHDer over here, if Idon't have my handbag in a set
(11:57):
spot, I can't find it.
So, it's gonna cause problems.
Then when you go from year fourto year five, that's often a
bigger transition again.
Your locker might be outside or,something like that.
So there's more responsibilitybecause it's age appropriate.
They say, go for it.
They give them moreindependence.
They're the leaders of theschool now.
And then when you go to highschool, well, that's a big
(12:19):
transition.
So we focus on the transitions.
But we're not focusing on thefact that those skills, those
underlying assumed skills,actually might not be there.
I can talk better about ADHDbecause it's my experience.
so for example, there's the 30%rule that we're basically 30% at
any one time behind our peersover the course of our life.
(12:43):
The 30% rule is basically that,a person with ADHD, will be 30%
behind their same age peers.
I don't wanna say across theboard, but often in social
skills, in things like executivefunctioning.
And it will vary between personto persons as to which area.
Leisa Reichelt (13:01):
Alright, so just round that out with, we are
saying that the exec functionchallenges that children
experience when they're atschool can lead to them having
difficulty doing the basics thatare being asked of them, which
then can turn into, experiencesof anxiety, distress, they're
(13:26):
doing well at school, which thenin turn can lead to not wanting
to attend school, which soundspretty sensible really, doesn't
it?
Emma Brooksby (13:34):
Yeah.
How much anxiety can one humanbeing put up with in a day?
Constantly trying to catch up.
I can't find my pencil.
I'm not sure where my book is.
Oh God.
I haven't started yet andeverybody else seems to be doing
something.
Where are the instructions?
Oh, right.
I can get on with that.
Oh wait, now we're packing up.
Great.
The anxiety sits right here.
Leisa Reichelt (13:57):
Let's pick out, a couple of specific examples
Emma Brooksby (14:01):
Sure.
Leisa Reichelt (14:01):
What you've seen as really some of the more
common exec functioningchallenges that kids have at
school.
Emma Brooksby (14:09):
Yep,
Leisa Reichelt (14:09):
What would be some of the big ones for you?
And let's talk about, how doesthat show up
Emma Brooksby (14:14):
yep.
Leisa Reichelt (14:14):
what are the things we can be doing to
support.
Emma Brooksby (14:17):
All right, cool.
So, I think the big ones areplanning and organization.
Task initiation is a big one.
And time management would be,yeah.
They, they would be the onesthat are kind of, and emotional
regulation.
they would be the big ones thatwe see a lot of issues with.
When they're not properlydeveloped, it can be tricky for
(14:38):
the human experiencing it.
By planning, I'm basicallytalking about anticipating
future events, setting goals anddeveloping steps to carry out an
activity.
Leisa Reichelt (14:49):
You give an example, perhaps of like what
would that look like forsomebody in year two?
What would that look like forsomebody in year eight?
Emma Brooksby (14:56):
So future events would be for, a little one would
probably be what they're gonnado at recess, who they're gonna
play with.
You know, that feeling of, Ican't ever find my friends if I
don't plan to put my things awayquickly enough, I won't get out
on time to meet my people andthen I can't find them.
(15:18):
So that's that planning therebut they don't think about where
are we gonna meet and what arewe gonna do it's okay, oh, I've
gotta eat as fast as I can.
Or, I won't eat my lunch becauseI wanna make sure I leave with
my friends.
And that's maybe why we end upwith a full lunchbox or things
half eaten yeah.
In year eight it's about whathomework do I have tonight?
(15:40):
What books do I need to bringhome and how am I gonna fit it
in with any sport practice thatI have, gaming with my friends,
eating dinner.
so that's kind of that planningof how that homework is gonna
happen and whether it does ornot.
the impact of difficulty withplanning leads to starting tasks
at the last minute.
(16:01):
Not thinking ahead aboutpossible problems and not being
able to break down tasks intosmaller steps, which then
extends onto that cognitiveflexibility and, you know, of
being able to adapt.
And then that emotionalregulation around it, you can
see how they all just dovetailand link together and one
compounds the other.
So when you're talking aboutorganization, that's about
(16:24):
bringing order to anyinformation that's presented.
So if you are thinking in aclassroom situation too, the
more that's put up on a board oreven electronically sifting
through that stuff and workingout what's important.
A great example in prep to twois a worded problem.
Accessing the reading in, in amaths worded problem.
(16:44):
We're adding reading intomathematics and we should, of
course, you know, that's realworld problems and everything
else, but what's the importantpart?
What bit is the mathematics inthis?
And so that's organizing thatstuff.
Leisa Reichelt (16:57):
Yeah.
My son was in year seven and hehad a locker, but he also had
all the different classrooms andall the different
Emma Brooksby (17:03):
Yeah,
Leisa Reichelt (17:05):
classrooms and all the different places to be.
Just being able to work out whatgoes in the locker and what
comes with me and how can I keepmy locker in a state so that I
can find things
Emma Brooksby (17:15):
yeah,
Leisa Reichelt (17:15):
sort of a timely way.
He just ended up carryingeverything in his bag everywhere
Emma Brooksby (17:20):
everywhere.
Leisa Reichelt (17:21):
was, just absolutely exhausted him.
Emma Brooksby (17:23):
And then you'll see the counterpart friend who
has just one book and a pen, andthat's what goes everywhere and
nothing else.
Calculator's gone.
I was that one.
I'm not sure where my pencilcase is, but I've got a pen and
a book that'll do.
Uh, yeah, so obviously that'sthe organization bit that causes
(17:44):
huge stress, particularly forsomebody who's a perfectionist
and needs to have all theirducks in a row.
You can see in school that anylevel of organization beyond
what you actually know how todo, forget about it.
Leisa Reichelt (18:00):
The experience that the kids are having,
presumably is they're gettinglost in all of the information
that's coming at them.
They're not being able to pullout the important things to
focus on and what's being askedof them.
Emma Brooksby (18:13):
And that's just the academics of it.
Leisa Reichelt (18:16):
yeah,
Emma Brooksby (18:17):
I mean, what about all the lost jumpers?
All the missed play timesbecause you have to stay in the
shade because you can't findyour hat that has massive social
implications and developingsocially because they can't find
their hats and they can't findtheir teacher to get the spare
one in the classroom.
Leisa Reichelt (18:37):
Then they have to go home to mum without that
jumper that she said, I'm notgonna buy you another jumper if
you lose one more.
Emma Brooksby (18:43):
Oh, I can't tell her I've lost it, so I'll just
be cold.
It'll be fine.
And then they can't concentrate'cause they're cold.
I mean, yeah.
Knock on effects.
Anxiety.
Leisa Reichelt (18:54):
Hmm Okay.
what's what's our nextchallenge?
Emma Brooksby (18:57):
Task initiation.
Come on, get on with it.
Okay.
So task initiation is that bitof getting started.
Whether it's something youreally like or something you
really don't like, it's thatability to get started.
And it's not about motivation.
I can be sitting on the couchknowing that I absolutely have
to do the washing.
(19:17):
If I don't do it, I've got nouniform for tomorrow.
And my husband's stuff needs tobe washed.
And that's my, one of my onejobs in the whole house.
That, that, that's it.
Do the washing on a weekend.
I know I have to do it and I'mhating myself for not doing it.
I'm either stuck, I'moverwhelmed, I can't, but I want
to, which is that whole SchoolCan't experience.
Now that's just one task.
(19:39):
How many tasks actually occur inany given day in a school that
you have to do, including eatinglunch at certain times?
Going outside, whatever theweather, you know, there are
things that you have to do.
And if task initiation is notyour thing, that can be
incredibly anxiety inducing.
It can cause a great sense offailure.
(19:59):
It has significant knock oneffect.
So we need to be able to starttasks in daily life or else
we're not gonna get anywhere andwe're gonna be relying on
everybody else.
So if we are just in lifefeeling overwhelmed, how many of
us wanna start a new task whenwe're already feeling
overwhelmed and exhausted?
(20:20):
Or if we are stuck because we'renot sure which way to go, we
won't get started.
If we have a fear of failure,perfectionism, if we're used to
getting things wrong and wedon't wanna be told once again
that we're wrong again, there'sa whole range of emotional,
internal and external influenceson the ability to get cracking
(20:41):
and get on with something.
But we say it like it's nothing.
Come on, just make a start.
Just get started.
It doesn't matter.
Just get started.
Leisa Reichelt (20:47):
That that is something that can often be
externally described in reallynegative ways as well, right?
Like that you're lazy or you're
Emma Brooksby (20:55):
Oh, yep, yep.
Leisa Reichelt (20:57):
care.
Which is bring with them likelayers of shame
Emma Brooksby (21:01):
Yeah.
Lazy and selfish are words thatI, I hate lazy and selfish as
words.
I really do because for most ofmy life, I've felt lazy and
selfish.
I know at times I've been calledit, but I'm not lazy.
I really wanna do the thing.
I really, really do wanna do thething.
I need help to do the thing orat least get started.
Leisa Reichelt (21:22):
Alright, so we've got these challenges.
you've given us this richpicture, I think, of how
impactful they can be on theexperience of trying to exist in
a school environment.
It gave me vivid flashbacks torecess in my youngest parts of
(21:43):
of school.
And trying not to get leftbehind
Emma Brooksby (21:45):
Yeah, me too.
Leisa Reichelt (21:46):
really took me back.
What can we do to, know what thequestion is.
Emma Brooksby (21:51):
Minimize the impact.
Leisa Reichelt (21:52):
minimize the impact?
That's what I'm looking
Emma Brooksby (21:54):
Yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (21:55):
you.
Emma Brooksby (21:55):
I think initially we can give strategies
but scaffolding is incrediblyimportant.
And not removing thatscaffolding too quickly and
saying, you know, good luck withthat.
I've shown you three times howto do that.
Well, sorry, you might need itsix times.
What are you expecting?
Is it age appropriate?
Is it developmentallyappropriate?
And if we are going by age, havewe applied that 30% rule and
(22:19):
actually considered the human infront of us?
So for a start, be careful withremoving the scaffolding.
Or letting the people that havethe power at schools remove that
scaffolding.
You know, she's in grade six.
She should be able to do that bynow.
Okay, cool.
Can she though?
School's job is to prepare ouryoung people for life.
(22:44):
That's part of their job, uh,the role of schools in our
society.
So when we're saying, well, theyshould be able to by now.
Okay, thanks.
They clearly can't.
What are we gonna do?
Like I said, removing thatscaffolding too quickly is
incredibly damaging.
That scaffolding includeshaving, a bank of pencils that a
(23:04):
person can grab if they can'tfind their own.
That freedom of you can't findyour book, that's okay.
Here's a bit of loose leaf,let's glue it in when we find
it.
I'm talking about primary schoolsetting at this point.
In high school, particularlyaround organization, just having
a book that you can just writewhatever, you know, those, those
backup plans that we as adultswill often go, look, I'll just
(23:26):
take a notebook with me in case.
Teaching those adult strategiesthat we ourselves use for the
just in case moments.
That's that scaffolding that I'mtalking about.
And yes, we're still developingtheir organization and their
planning skills because they'regiving contingency plans.
They're planning for when theyforget to organize themselves
(23:48):
with their materials, and thenreminders, you know, I
understand why kids can't havetheir phones at school.
I get it.
But it's a good reminding toolto have an alert and to help
with that.
It really is good for thosetypes of things and we as adults
use them.
So, you know, I get why it'shappened.
There are so many benefits tothose types of things that are
(24:09):
real tools that can be usedlifelong that we are not
capitalizing on in the schoolenvironment.
So when we're talking aboutreasonable adjustments, maybe
that's one.
If planning and organization issomething that is regularly
brought up by the school or theclassroom teacher, or is causing
the child serious anxiety,That's one of those reasonable
adjustments, I think.
Leisa Reichelt (24:29):
Yeah, my son went to a school, briefly,
unfortunately, that, wasdesigned to support kids who are
struggling in mainstream
Emma Brooksby (24:37):
Yep.
Leisa Reichelt (24:37):
and in that school that it was a high school
like year nine and up, the kidswent to the same room all the
time and the teachers movedaround and they had all of their
books and they had all of thestationary and everything that
they needed.
And so all of that was just kindof completely taken away, gosh,
what a weight off.
Just not to have to think aboutthat at all.
(24:59):
yeah, just makes you wonderlike, why are schools designed
to run the kids aroundeverywhere.
Everyone's just running aroundmadly it feels like.
Emma Brooksby (25:07):
i'm not a school designer.
But you've gotta wonder, we havethe technology, we have cloud
bases and schools use them.
Why are we still relying onbooks and paper and pencils that
can be lost?
I know we're worried aboutscreen time and all that kind of
stuff,
Leisa Reichelt (25:22):
So yeah, the thing I feel like I'm taking
away on the planning is thatalmost less that have all of
these techniques to plan better,it's it's almost more about how
can we plan to support the kidswhen they will almost certainly
(25:43):
have a failure in planning sothat that doesn't become really
negative in their experience ofgetting by at school.
Is that a fair way of describingit?
Emma Brooksby (25:52):
yeah, I think so.
Leisa Reichelt (25:53):
Emma, why don't we talk about task initiation.
What can we be doing to help tosupport them to initiate the
tasks
Emma Brooksby (26:01):
Yep.
So something that we've actuallyfound really useful in our work
is a task breakdown sheet, but,that's so 2022 because ChatGPT
and Gemini and this wonderfultool called Goblin Tools that
I've recently discovered, GoblinTools Magic To Do, can help
break down a task and divide itinto smaller chunks that are
(26:26):
more manageable.
So, relying on AI to give thatbreakdown because, if I can, I
would love to use, an example ofengaging in a math lesson.
And explain all the implicationsthat can have for one human
(26:47):
being.
So if I'm gonna talk throughfour major areas, and that's
planning and organization, taskinitiation, time management, and
emotional regulation as itapplies to engaging in a maths
class.
Now for those that are gonnawatch it.
The thing itself looks a littlebit like that.
And for those that can't, don'tworry, I'm about to explain it.
(27:08):
I put this into Magic To Do atGoblin Tools.
It's free online.
So is just a breakdown ofengaging in a maths class.
So for a start engaging in mathsclass, emotional regulation, do
you even like maths?
Because if you don't, you areinstantly having an emotional
regulation issue to accessingthat learning, right?
(27:30):
Straight up.
But then Goblin Tools and MagicTo Do tells me that the first
thing is to participate activelyin the classroom.
And so I went, cool.
Break that down for me.
And it says, arrive prepared forthe maths class with the
necessary materials such astextbooks, notebooks, and
(27:52):
writing tools.
And I went, Hmm, great.
Break that down for me.
Because just in that instructionalone, planning and organization
heavy and time management heavyright there.
So then the first step ofarriving prepared is to gather
(28:13):
your textbooks and notebooksbefore heading to class.
Again, planning and organizationand time management.
And that's again, if you evenfeel like going to maths because
you like it, then.
We're still battling that.
And if anything goes wrong inthat tiny stage of getting ready
to go there, your emotionalregulation is out the window.
(28:34):
If you can't find your textbooksnotebooks or calculator, you
start to panic.
I'm gonna get in trouble.
Your anxiety's going through theroof.
Then it tells me, I said, allright, gather your textbooks,
notebooks.
Break that down for me.
And it said, well review yourlist of required materials.
What do you need to take withyou?
That's time management planningand organization again, and we
(28:56):
are not even at the maths classyet.
We're still contemplating going.
Then you've gotta locate yourtextbooks from your study area
or storage, then you've gottaget your notebooks.
Then you've gotta ensure you'vegot your writing implements.
Then you've gotta collect it alltogether, verify that they're in
good condition and complete thenyou've gotta transport it all.
You've gotta get your butt overthere with it in your hands.
(29:17):
That's just step one.
In order to participate activelyin maths class according to
Magic To Do, you have to listenattentively to teachers
instructions and explanations.
I've been a teacher, I've triedto be engaging most of my life,
but I know I never had a hundredpercent engagement all listening
(29:37):
to my instructions.
Sometimes they were garbageinstructions.
So, you know, we've got thatissue.
But then it also says thatyou've gotta maintain eye
contact and show engagementthrough body language, such as
sitting upright and facing theteacher Eye contact's often a
problem, but that's emotionalregulation because you have to
contain yourself to be able todo that.
(29:59):
Then as part of that,participating actively, it also
says you gotta contribute toclass discussions by sharing
ideas and viewpoints.
Now, I don't disagree withanything that's here about
participating actively.
I get that that's what it means.
But when we look at what thatrequires, speaking about
executive functioning, it is amassive load just to participate
(30:20):
and that's not being engaged ina math class.
There's another 10 instructions,like there's 10 in total, and
you can break each one of thosedown into 10.
And we're talking about amassive load that at any point
if it falls down and you feellike you are not being
successful in that class, youranxiety's gonna go through the
roof because your emotionalregulations out the window.
(30:41):
You can't remember anything thenfrom your working memory, and
you can't access what you doknow.
So your planning for the thingsgoing wrong is out the window
and then your inhibitioncontrol's gone and your
cognitive flexibility, you'restuck.
And then why aren't you doinganything?
Leisa Reichelt (30:58):
And it's worth kind of reflecting on the fact
that there's gonna be a bunch ofpeople in that classroom who
don't have executive functioningissues, who are achieving all of
this with relative ease.
it's this sense of the heavyload is carried by those kids in
the classroom who do have theexecutive functioning issues
Emma Brooksby (31:18):
because we're the ones that are singled out.
Oh you've forgotten your stuffagain.
It's often not meant to be mean.
It can sometimes just bemisguided if they're given
enough reminders.
Leisa Reichelt (31:33):
And, and then there's there's our whole cohort
of people pleasers as well
Emma Brooksby (31:37):
yeah.
And completely masking.
So you can see how academicperformance is influenced by
something that we get throughosmosis.
Executive functioning skills arelargely gathered through osmosis
and natural development.
And then trying andexperimenting with these things
as we develop.
(31:58):
I know for my people we need tobe taught how to function
executively, And get thattoolkit.
Leisa Reichelt (32:07):
Emma, when you're working with schools,
what are the kinds of thingsthat you are encouraging them to
do to accommodate kids who havegot executive functioning
issues?
Emma Brooksby (32:18):
So flexibility to start with and developing
teachers and schools to put thesystems in place, that mean that
everybody gets to succeed nomatter what.
So we are looking atunderstanding neurodivergence
and how it can present so thatexecutive function issues that,
(32:41):
that ADHD kid that's coming in,they're late again and they
don't have their stuff andthey've walked in and they've
cracked a joke'cause they thinkthey're hilarious and they're
trying to lighten the mood.
They're not trying to push yourbuttons.
They're trying to make it okayfor them to be in the space when
they know they've stuffed it upas an example.
So about, their own cognitiveflexibility and saying, okay,
(33:03):
this is the human in front ofme.
I have a choice here.
I'm the adult.
I can be emotionally regulatedand I can show grace and
compassion and all those thingsthat I wanna be shown, in this
instance.
So I think it's just thatincreasing the understanding of
the complexity.
ADHD in particular is not justabout being naughty and noticing
(33:28):
a squirrel, you know, the wholesquirrel thing.
There's so much to it theself-loathing that comes with it
and, all those negative thingsconsider that human.
So that's the tools andstrategies to support everybody
and look away from the ideal.
Every teacher will tell you, youcan have your perfect class in
your mind.
You're never getting it in reallife.
(33:49):
We can't change the kids.
So we need to change what we aredoing to make it work for the
people that I'm spending thishour with or this day with.
That's the message I'm trying tohit up.
Leisa Reichelt (33:59):
Emma, if you've got a child who has executive
dysfunction issues and they'rejust not cutting it in a
mainstream school environment,are there some other alternative
educational settings that youare aware of that you think
might potentially be moresuitable?
Emma Brooksby (34:14):
So there are a couple that some people really
don't know about here at U I, Idiscovered Big Picture Education
Australia, three years ago andwe're now a member with them and
home learners can participate inBig Picture education,
particularly their year 11 and12 with us.
Big Picture is amazing in myopinion.
(34:36):
And the research says it is too.
It's designed to sit inmainstream schools and they are
all over the country.
Sometimes, standalone academiesas well, right through to year
12.
It's a proper alternativecredential that is recognized at
universities and TAFEs and noexams.
It's personalized learning,individualized.
There's one school here inVictoria.
(34:57):
It's for year seven to 12 andit's wait list is as long as
it's enrollment list.
There are three in Tassie.
There are several all around thecountry.
The website has locations andwhatnot, but incredibly
flexible.
The learning advisors areamazing people.
And it's about learning throughinternships and leaving to
learn.
(35:18):
And so, you know, TAFE coursesand it's not just work
experience.
They're rich experiences.
And it's a small school model.
So 16 people in one advisory,right the way through.
So that depth of understandingeach other as individuals really
develops and the mentorship forthe older ones as they're
bringing through, but pursuingpassions and creating a
portfolio of evidence at theend.
(35:38):
All these amazing things thatyou've done.
If you don't know about BigPicture, have a look, they're
great.
But then there's Mastery SchoolsAustralia as well.
They're fairly new on the scene.
We've got one here in Victorianow.
We've got a couple of ourclients go there, started this
year.
So, they beginning 2021 inQueensland.
And they've got campuses,Queensland, Victoria, Tassie,
and it's a middle school foryears, four to 10.
(35:59):
They aim to develop academicfoundations and resilience, to
reenter mainstream educationAustralia wide.
It's evidence-based structuredapproaches.
It's, it's working for some ofour kids who School Can't is, is
a thing, for them and it, andit's working for them.
So that's, that's really nice tosee.
There's some special assistanceschools through Independent
(36:21):
Schools Australia.
That are really working for ourkids.
Then it's Montessori andSteiner.
We know about those, but, someof those have been great for our
kids.
Virtual school too.
I know it doesn't work foreverybody, but that's out there
as well.
I'm pulling from things that Iknow our clients have
experienced success with, butI'm also an advocate for
(36:42):
homeschooling and unschoolingbecause burnout is real and
sometimes a genuine break.
I know that families strugglewith that because it seems,
their kids aren't doinganything, but even if they were
going, what would they begetting out of it?
For someone who, was in thesystem and does the work I do, I
(37:02):
really do wanna say that.
It's okay.
For the unschooling andrecognizing burnout.
Acknowledging that in your youngperson can build them up in ways
that you could not imagine.
It's not to be discounted as a,I'm a lazy parent, or I'm doing
wrong by my kid.
(37:22):
I think you're doing the mostnoble thing that you can for
your young people.
If that's what they need.
Leisa Reichelt (37:27):
Well, certainly if they're in burnout, you often
don't have much choice anyway,
Emma Brooksby (37:31):
No, you don't.
Leisa Reichelt (37:31):
So there is that.
Fantastic.
Emma, um, just to wrap us up, ifthere were some resources that
you would love parents to knowabout with regards to exec
function
Emma Brooksby (37:44):
All right.
The Harvard University Center onthe Developing Child has some
great resources, and games andthings to play.
A whole lot of resources thatare free, you just download them
and find the appropriate age foryour kids.
This book, Learning to Plan andBe Organized, it's a useful
little, executive functionskills for kids with ADHD.
(38:05):
And it is just, a book, byKathleen Nadeau.
I know there are a lot outthere, but this is one that we
use with our clients.
Oh yeah, the goblin tools, themagic to do list to break
everything down.
ChatGPT will break down a taskfor you.
That is, it's a life changer forme.
Just saying.
Now I tell everyone Cos itsfree!.
Leisa Reichelt (38:25):
Amazing.
Well, Emma, it's been fantasticto spend some time with you
digging into understanding execfunction and the impact that,
that challenges with execfunction will contribute to the
school experience for our kids.
So thank you so much forspending the time with us.
Much appreciated.
Thank you.
There is so much to talk aboutwhen it comes to executive
(38:47):
function and school, but Emmadoes a wonderful job of really
demonstrating how complex thedemands of school are on
executive function and thestress and anxiety that this can
cause for our kids.
I have put some of the links tothe great resources Emma
suggested in the episode notes,as well as links to find out
more about School Can'tAustralia.
If you have found this podcasthelpful and I really hope that
(39:08):
you have, please do take amoment to share, subscribe,
maybe even give us a rating orreview.
It really does help us to getthis podcast in front of more
people who have School Can'tkids, and have not yet found the
community and the informationthat we share.
If you have some feedback for usor maybe you'd like to share
your own School Can't livedexperience, please drop us an
(39:29):
email toschoolcantpodcast@gmail.com.
If you are a parent or carer andyou are feeling distressed.
Remember, you can always callthe Parent Helpline in your
state.
A link with the number to callis in the episode notes.
Thank you again for listening.
We will talk again soon.
Take care.
Hello and welcome to the School Can't
Experience Podcast.
I'm Leisa Reichelt, and thispodcast is brought to you by the
School Can't Australiacommunity.
Caring for a young person who isstruggling to attend school can
be a stressful and isolatingexperience, but you are not
alone.
Thousands of parents acrossAustralia and many more around
the world face similarchallenges and experiences every
(00:26):
day.
Did you know that executivefunction or dysfunction can have
a really big impact on our kids'experience of school?
Well, we are joined today byEmma Brooksby, Managing Director
at U&I Educational Partners.
She's an ADHDer and a formerschool principal.
And Emma is gonna help usunderstand some of those
challenges better, as well asthe opportunities to offer
(00:49):
better support at school.
Emma, thank you so much forjoining us on our podcast.
Emma Brooksby (00:54):
Thank you for having me.
Leisa Reichelt (00:56):
I was wondering if you can start us off by just
telling us a little bit aboutthe story of Emma, what's
brought you on your journey towho you are and what you're
doing today?
Emma Brooksby (01:06):
Sure.
Thank you very much for havingme.
I'm here because I used to be aschool principal in Victoria, a
primary school principal, and Iworked with the Department of
Education for 16, 17 years.
Don't hold that against me.
So, I was diagnosed ADHDinformally in my early thirties.
(01:26):
I'm now late forties, and Ididn't take any form of
medication until I was in myearly forties.
I started to struggle withexecutive functioning and
managing the role of principalwhen I started that role and so
I realized I should probably getsome support for the ADHD that
I'd been told that I had.
(01:48):
So, formal diagnosis,
Leisa Reichelt (01:50):
you were diagnosed when you were still
teaching?
Emma Brooksby (01:52):
yeah, yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (01:53):
then after you'd been diagnosed, you'd been
carrying on with that, and you
Emma Brooksby (01:57):
Yep,
Leisa Reichelt (01:58):
to become a principal
Emma Brooksby (02:00):
yep.
Leisa Reichelt (02:00):
then hit your ceiling
Emma Brooksby (02:02):
yeah, the wheels started to fall off for me in
terms of executive functioningand coping with the demands of
the role.
So, I got medicated and it wasabsolutely fantastic for me.
It worked really well.
The first one didn't work sogreat, but now working really
well.
So when COVID hit in 2020,particularly being in Victoria,
we were subjected to some prettysevere lockdowns.
(02:23):
I saw a real shift for whatcould have been for the
education system.
And I really sort of went, thisis fantastic for some of our
people, particularly myneurodivergent kin.
A lot of them experienced greatsuccess in the remote learning
and the way that we did it.
I thought there was a realopportunity, going forward, but
we might see some big systemchange.
Everybody kind of knew thateverything was gonna be
(02:44):
different we were quite quickoff the mark at the school to
set things up.
I knew we had to be reallyflexible for our community.
So we basically threw everythingout and the way that we
approached it was to have thekids dip in and out as they
needed to, but see the teachersevery single day.
We had a fair few students onsite and that was something that
(03:05):
we decided as a leadership teamwas gonna be good for our, for
our kids.
Being safe, of course.
But it was that curriculum shiftthat gave freedom for our
students in the way that theypresented things, talked about
things, engaged and the level ofengagement and some, on the face
of it weren't online a lot, butthey did check in every single
(03:28):
day, twice a day.
Regular work was coming inthrough Google Docs and online
and we saw some of our kidsreally thrive, because of the
freedom to express themselves intheir own home, use their pets
as props, you know, be in theircomfy clothes.
And there was a real opportunityfor the system of schooling to
(03:49):
change and learn from it andgrow.
For me, it was exciting that wemight see significant change
because the sole reason Idecided to pursue the
principalship was leading aschool.
I thought, you know, realchange.
Was I perfect?
No, I was absolutely notperfect.
But I wanted to make change forthe betterment of everybody.
(04:11):
In a system as big as it is, Icouldn't do it.
After the end of 2020 and 2021and the lockdowns finished.
We as a system in Victoriaresumed the status quo, it was
come on kids, back you come,come on teachers, back you come.
It didn't matter how well itworked for some people,
including staff, we learnednothing.
(04:32):
We changed nothing.
Now other people may have, I'monly talking about my experience
here.
Mid 2021, I decided that theprincipalship and, teaching and
leading as a whole wasn't for meanymore, but I knew I had to, I
knew I had to do something Istill wanted to be part of my
(04:52):
community.
I still wanted to be making adifference and doing things.
I really want to help myneurodivergent kin to not
experience the life that I haveexperienced.
I didn't want the nextgeneration and generations after
that to come through not havingtheir needs met and thinking
(05:13):
they are less than.
Or thinking that they need to besomeone other than they are.
I started U I EducationalPartners, and we work with
neurodivergent young people,children and adults.
We bridge the gap between alliedhealth and schools.
(05:34):
We advocate for our people inschool settings for reasonable
adjustments we work one-on-onethrough NDIS capacity building,
understanding ourselves asneurodivergent people and how we
experience the world and how,we're not disabled.
There are some systems in oursociety that make things
disabling for us.
(05:56):
Making sure that the negativefeedback we get is tempered by
the positives and the things weknow about ourselves and how we
learn.
Removing those barriers tolearning and life is what U I
Educational Partners is about.
And building up the toolkit sothose barriers are removed.
Leisa Reichelt (06:13):
Okay, fantastic.
So we wanted to focus onexecutive function today, Emma.
We know lots of kids havedifferent kinds of executive
function struggles, particularlyif they're in that neurodiverse
community.
And that can cause somechallenges at school.
What do we actually mean when wetalk about executive function?
(06:35):
What is it?
Emma Brooksby (06:36):
Well, it's the set of skills, that enable us to
plan, solve problems and adaptto changing environments.
So really there's threeoverarching areas of executive
functioning, and that's workingmemory, cognitive flexibility
and inhibition control.
And within each big area, thereare subsets within it.
(06:57):
So within working memory, we'retalking about retaining
information, manipulatinginformation, connecting
information, and focusing.
In cognitive flexibility, we'retalking about switching between
tasks, adapting to change,problem solving and perspective
taking.
In inhibition control we'retalking about self-regulation,
delay in gratification, taskinitiation and emotional
(07:19):
regulation.
It develops over time and thevast majority of it should be
developed by age 12, but willextend certain aspects the depth
and complexity of each bit asyour brain develops, will
continue into late teens up to30 years of age.
The research is ever evolving aswe learn about our brains
(07:41):
flexibility and plasticity ofit.
Leisa Reichelt (07:43):
Yeah, I was going to ask about that.
We have neurodivergence in ourfamily and in various
assessments that have been doneat at different points.
It's like, well, this is yourscore for working memory and
it's a low centile.
What do I do with the fact thatthere's a low working memory
situation?
Is our goal to think about howwe sort of scaffold that
(08:06):
shortcoming?
I feel like I'm using all thewrong words, or are we trying to
lean into neuroplasticity andimprove performance?
What are we doing?
Emma Brooksby (08:15):
Yeah,
Leisa Reichelt (08:16):
here?
Emma Brooksby (08:16):
I, it can absolutely be improved.
Um, I don't ever think the goalis to be, perfect in any way,
shape or form, I know myexecutive functioning, planning
an organization I'm great with.
I can make as many plans as youlike, but executing those plans
through task initiation, I'mrubbish, absolute rubbish.
(08:37):
So it depends, I guess on theindividual.
So you can say that workingmemory is really poor and often
on the, the Whisk and whatnot itcan show that.
There are so many ways to buildit up and we'll get into that,
you can absolutely at any age.
Harvard's Center on theDeveloping Child, they have a
range of things you can downloadfor nothing, about enhancing and
(08:59):
practicing executive functionskills from infancy through
adulthood.
There are ways to improve itacross the lifespan, if you need
to.
So if it isn't impacting theindividual, then the score
doesn't matter.
It's when it's impacting theindividual and the people they
love and care about that it's aproblem.
Leisa Reichelt (09:21):
Yeah.
That makes a lot of sense.
Kids who are experiencingexecutive functioning
challenges, how is that going toimpact in the school
environment?
What are we gonna see typically?
Emma Brooksby (09:37):
Executive dysfunction, particularly
challenges with working memoryand cognitive flexibility can
hugely impact our kids' abilityto navigate the demands of
school.
So we're talking aboutdifficulties with emotional
regulation and behavioralcontrol as well.
It's can make it hard to copewith the whole nature of
schooling.
So when you're looking at SchoolCan't and why our people might
(10:03):
be having School Can't issues,It can impact an ability to
remember instructions, to plantasks, switch between tasks, and
that can lead to frustration andsend your anxiety through the
roof.
Making it harder to focus, tocomplete assignments.
It's compounding issue, right?
And when we're talking abouteven difficulty with transitions
(10:26):
and an unstructured environment,schools can be unpredictable.
Your teachers change teachersleave, have families, all that
kind of thing.
Even activities and socialsituations, kids leave, kids
arrive, adapting to changethat's that cognitive
flexibility.
And if adapting to change ishard, that unpredictable
environment, when nothing isconstant except the rule that
(10:47):
you can't play with sticks, youranxiety is gonna go through the
absolute roof and then we've gotthe academic challenges.
The academic demands are beingat school planning,
organization, time management.
The executive functioning skillsare all assumed that they're
there and that we have thembecause they develop and they're
inadvertently, they're notintentionally taught in schools.
(11:08):
Executive functioning skillsaren't intentionally taught
anywhere because they developover time and developmentally so
we don't know there's a problemuntil there's a problem.
Leisa Reichelt (11:21):
So that might account for why it's not
uncommon for a kid to hit yearseven, year eight, and they hit
their exec
Emma Brooksby (11:30):
functioning.
Leisa Reichelt (11:30):
because of all the additional demands for
organization and changemanagement,
Emma Brooksby (11:35):
But this is why In all those stages of
schooling, when you look at prepto two, they say it's a big
transition from year two to yearthree, because you go from
having communal shared resourcesto having a locker tub or
something like that, where thosekids start to be responsible for
their own belongings.
Now, ADHDer over here, if Idon't have my handbag in a set
(11:57):
spot, I can't find it.
So, it's gonna cause problems.
Then when you go from year fourto year five, that's often a
bigger transition again.
Your locker might be outside or,something like that.
So there's more responsibilitybecause it's age appropriate.
They say, go for it.
They give them moreindependence.
They're the leaders of theschool now.
And then when you go to highschool, well, that's a big
(12:19):
transition.
So we focus on the transitions.
But we're not focusing on thefact that those skills, those
underlying assumed skills,actually might not be there.
I can talk better about ADHDbecause it's my experience.
so for example, there's the 30%rule that we're basically 30% at
any one time behind our peersover the course of our life.
(12:43):
The 30% rule is basically that,a person with ADHD, will be 30%
behind their same age peers.
I don't wanna say across theboard, but often in social
skills, in things like executivefunctioning.
And it will vary between personto persons as to which area.
Leisa Reichelt (13:01):
Alright, so just round that out with, we are
saying that the exec functionchallenges that children
experience when they're atschool can lead to them having
difficulty doing the basics thatare being asked of them, which
then can turn into, experiencesof anxiety, distress, they're
(13:26):
doing well at school, which thenin turn can lead to not wanting
to attend school, which soundspretty sensible really, doesn't
it?
Emma Brooksby (13:34):
Yeah.
How much anxiety can one humanbeing put up with in a day?
Constantly trying to catch up.
I can't find my pencil.
I'm not sure where my book is.
Oh God.
I haven't started yet andeverybody else seems to be doing
something.
Where are the instructions?
Oh, right.
I can get on with that.
Oh wait, now we're packing up.
Great.
The anxiety sits right here.
Leisa Reichelt (13:57):
Let's pick out, a couple of specific examples
Emma Brooksby (14:01):
Sure.
Leisa Reichelt (14:01):
What you've seen as really some of the more
common exec functioningchallenges that kids have at
school.
Emma Brooksby (14:09):
Yep,
Leisa Reichelt (14:09):
What would be some of the big ones for you?
And let's talk about, how doesthat show up
Emma Brooksby (14:14):
yep.
Leisa Reichelt (14:14):
what are the things we can be doing to
support.
Emma Brooksby (14:17):
All right, cool.
So, I think the big ones areplanning and organization.
Task initiation is a big one.
And time management would be,yeah.
They, they would be the onesthat are kind of, and emotional
regulation.
they would be the big ones thatwe see a lot of issues with.
When they're not properlydeveloped, it can be tricky for
(14:38):
the human experiencing it.
By planning, I'm basicallytalking about anticipating
future events, setting goals anddeveloping steps to carry out an
activity.
Leisa Reichelt (14:49):
You give an example, perhaps of like what
would that look like forsomebody in year two?
What would that look like forsomebody in year eight?
Emma Brooksby (14:56):
So future events would be for, a little one would
probably be what they're gonnado at recess, who they're gonna
play with.
You know, that feeling of, Ican't ever find my friends if I
don't plan to put my things awayquickly enough, I won't get out
on time to meet my people andthen I can't find them.
(15:18):
So that's that planning therebut they don't think about where
are we gonna meet and what arewe gonna do it's okay, oh, I've
gotta eat as fast as I can.
Or, I won't eat my lunch becauseI wanna make sure I leave with
my friends.
And that's maybe why we end upwith a full lunchbox or things
half eaten yeah.
In year eight it's about whathomework do I have tonight?
(15:40):
What books do I need to bringhome and how am I gonna fit it
in with any sport practice thatI have, gaming with my friends,
eating dinner.
so that's kind of that planningof how that homework is gonna
happen and whether it does ornot.
the impact of difficulty withplanning leads to starting tasks
at the last minute.
(16:01):
Not thinking ahead aboutpossible problems and not being
able to break down tasks intosmaller steps, which then
extends onto that cognitiveflexibility and, you know, of
being able to adapt.
And then that emotionalregulation around it, you can
see how they all just dovetailand link together and one
compounds the other.
So when you're talking aboutorganization, that's about
(16:24):
bringing order to anyinformation that's presented.
So if you are thinking in aclassroom situation too, the
more that's put up on a board oreven electronically sifting
through that stuff and workingout what's important.
A great example in prep to twois a worded problem.
Accessing the reading in, in amaths worded problem.
(16:44):
We're adding reading intomathematics and we should, of
course, you know, that's realworld problems and everything
else, but what's the importantpart?
What bit is the mathematics inthis?
And so that's organizing thatstuff.
Leisa Reichelt (16:57):
Yeah.
My son was in year seven and hehad a locker, but he also had
all the different classrooms andall the different
Emma Brooksby (17:03):
Yeah,
Leisa Reichelt (17:05):
classrooms and all the different places to be.
Just being able to work out whatgoes in the locker and what
comes with me and how can I keepmy locker in a state so that I
can find things
Emma Brooksby (17:15):
yeah,
Leisa Reichelt (17:15):
sort of a timely way.
He just ended up carryingeverything in his bag everywhere
Emma Brooksby (17:20):
everywhere.
Leisa Reichelt (17:21):
was, just absolutely exhausted him.
Emma Brooksby (17:23):
And then you'll see the counterpart friend who
has just one book and a pen, andthat's what goes everywhere and
nothing else.
Calculator's gone.
I was that one.
I'm not sure where my pencilcase is, but I've got a pen and
a book that'll do.
Uh, yeah, so obviously that'sthe organization bit that causes
(17:44):
huge stress, particularly forsomebody who's a perfectionist
and needs to have all theirducks in a row.
You can see in school that anylevel of organization beyond
what you actually know how todo, forget about it.
Leisa Reichelt (18:00):
The experience that the kids are having,
presumably is they're gettinglost in all of the information
that's coming at them.
They're not being able to pullout the important things to
focus on and what's being askedof them.
Emma Brooksby (18:13):
And that's just the academics of it.
Leisa Reichelt (18:16):
yeah,
Emma Brooksby (18:17):
I mean, what about all the lost jumpers?
All the missed play timesbecause you have to stay in the
shade because you can't findyour hat that has massive social
implications and developingsocially because they can't find
their hats and they can't findtheir teacher to get the spare
one in the classroom.
Leisa Reichelt (18:37):
Then they have to go home to mum without that
jumper that she said, I'm notgonna buy you another jumper if
you lose one more.
Emma Brooksby (18:43):
Oh, I can't tell her I've lost it, so I'll just
be cold.
It'll be fine.
And then they can't concentrate'cause they're cold.
I mean, yeah.
Knock on effects.
Anxiety.
Leisa Reichelt (18:54):
Hmm Okay.
what's what's our nextchallenge?
Emma Brooksby (18:57):
Task initiation.
Come on, get on with it.
Okay.
So task initiation is that bitof getting started.
Whether it's something youreally like or something you
really don't like, it's thatability to get started.
And it's not about motivation.
I can be sitting on the couchknowing that I absolutely have
to do the washing.
(19:17):
If I don't do it, I've got nouniform for tomorrow.
And my husband's stuff needs tobe washed.
And that's my, one of my onejobs in the whole house.
That, that, that's it.
Do the washing on a weekend.
I know I have to do it and I'mhating myself for not doing it.
I'm either stuck, I'moverwhelmed, I can't, but I want
to, which is that whole SchoolCan't experience.
Now that's just one task.
(19:39):
How many tasks actually occur inany given day in a school that
you have to do, including eatinglunch at certain times?
Going outside, whatever theweather, you know, there are
things that you have to do.
And if task initiation is notyour thing, that can be
incredibly anxiety inducing.
It can cause a great sense offailure.
(19:59):
It has significant knock oneffect.
So we need to be able to starttasks in daily life or else
we're not gonna get anywhere andwe're gonna be relying on
everybody else.
So if we are just in lifefeeling overwhelmed, how many of
us wanna start a new task whenwe're already feeling
overwhelmed and exhausted?
(20:20):
Or if we are stuck because we'renot sure which way to go, we
won't get started.
If we have a fear of failure,perfectionism, if we're used to
getting things wrong and wedon't wanna be told once again
that we're wrong again, there'sa whole range of emotional,
internal and external influenceson the ability to get cracking
(20:41):
and get on with something.
But we say it like it's nothing.
Come on, just make a start.
Just get started.
It doesn't matter.
Just get started.
Leisa Reichelt (20:47):
That that is something that can often be
externally described in reallynegative ways as well, right?
Like that you're lazy or you're
Emma Brooksby (20:55):
Oh, yep, yep.
Leisa Reichelt (20:57):
care.
Which is bring with them likelayers of shame
Emma Brooksby (21:01):
Yeah.
Lazy and selfish are words thatI, I hate lazy and selfish as
words.
I really do because for most ofmy life, I've felt lazy and
selfish.
I know at times I've been calledit, but I'm not lazy.
I really wanna do the thing.
I really, really do wanna do thething.
I need help to do the thing orat least get started.
Leisa Reichelt (21:22):
Alright, so we've got these challenges.
you've given us this richpicture, I think, of how
impactful they can be on theexperience of trying to exist in
a school environment.
It gave me vivid flashbacks torecess in my youngest parts of
(21:43):
of school.
And trying not to get leftbehind
Emma Brooksby (21:45):
Yeah, me too.
Leisa Reichelt (21:46):
really took me back.
What can we do to, know what thequestion is.
Emma Brooksby (21:51):
Minimize the impact.
Leisa Reichelt (21:52):
minimize the impact?
That's what I'm looking
Emma Brooksby (21:54):
Yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (21:55):
you.
Emma Brooksby (21:55):
I think initially we can give strategies
but scaffolding is incrediblyimportant.
And not removing thatscaffolding too quickly and
saying, you know, good luck withthat.
I've shown you three times howto do that.
Well, sorry, you might need itsix times.
What are you expecting?
Is it age appropriate?
Is it developmentallyappropriate?
And if we are going by age, havewe applied that 30% rule and
(22:19):
actually considered the human infront of us?
So for a start, be careful withremoving the scaffolding.
Or letting the people that havethe power at schools remove that
scaffolding.
You know, she's in grade six.
She should be able to do that bynow.
Okay, cool.
Can she though?
School's job is to prepare ouryoung people for life.
(22:44):
That's part of their job, uh,the role of schools in our
society.
So when we're saying, well, theyshould be able to by now.
Okay, thanks.
They clearly can't.
What are we gonna do?
Like I said, removing thatscaffolding too quickly is
incredibly damaging.
That scaffolding includeshaving, a bank of pencils that a
(23:04):
person can grab if they can'tfind their own.
That freedom of you can't findyour book, that's okay.
Here's a bit of loose leaf,let's glue it in when we find
it.
I'm talking about primary schoolsetting at this point.
In high school, particularlyaround organization, just having
a book that you can just writewhatever, you know, those, those
backup plans that we as adultswill often go, look, I'll just
(23:26):
take a notebook with me in case.
Teaching those adult strategiesthat we ourselves use for the
just in case moments.
That's that scaffolding that I'mtalking about.
And yes, we're still developingtheir organization and their
planning skills because they'regiving contingency plans.
They're planning for when theyforget to organize themselves
(23:48):
with their materials, and thenreminders, you know, I
understand why kids can't havetheir phones at school.
I get it.
But it's a good reminding toolto have an alert and to help
with that.
It really is good for thosetypes of things and we as adults
use them.
So, you know, I get why it'shappened.
There are so many benefits tothose types of things that are
(24:09):
real tools that can be usedlifelong that we are not
capitalizing on in the schoolenvironment.
So when we're talking aboutreasonable adjustments, maybe
that's one.
If planning and organization issomething that is regularly
brought up by the school or theclassroom teacher, or is causing
the child serious anxiety,That's one of those reasonable
adjustments, I think.
Leisa Reichelt (24:29):
Yeah, my son went to a school, briefly,
unfortunately, that, wasdesigned to support kids who are
struggling in mainstream
Emma Brooksby (24:37):
Yep.
Leisa Reichelt (24:37):
and in that school that it was a high school
like year nine and up, the kidswent to the same room all the
time and the teachers movedaround and they had all of their
books and they had all of thestationary and everything that
they needed.
And so all of that was just kindof completely taken away, gosh,
what a weight off.
Just not to have to think aboutthat at all.
(24:59):
yeah, just makes you wonderlike, why are schools designed
to run the kids aroundeverywhere.
Everyone's just running aroundmadly it feels like.
Emma Brooksby (25:07):
i'm not a school designer.
But you've gotta wonder, we havethe technology, we have cloud
bases and schools use them.
Why are we still relying onbooks and paper and pencils that
can be lost?
I know we're worried aboutscreen time and all that kind of
stuff,
Leisa Reichelt (25:22):
So yeah, the thing I feel like I'm taking
away on the planning is thatalmost less that have all of
these techniques to plan better,it's it's almost more about how
can we plan to support the kidswhen they will almost certainly
(25:43):
have a failure in planning sothat that doesn't become really
negative in their experience ofgetting by at school.
Is that a fair way of describingit?
Emma Brooksby (25:52):
yeah, I think so.
Leisa Reichelt (25:53):
Emma, why don't we talk about task initiation.
What can we be doing to help tosupport them to initiate the
tasks
Emma Brooksby (26:01):
Yep.
So something that we've actuallyfound really useful in our work
is a task breakdown sheet, but,that's so 2022 because ChatGPT
and Gemini and this wonderfultool called Goblin Tools that
I've recently discovered, GoblinTools Magic To Do, can help
break down a task and divide itinto smaller chunks that are
(26:26):
more manageable.
So, relying on AI to give thatbreakdown because, if I can, I
would love to use, an example ofengaging in a math lesson.
And explain all the implicationsthat can have for one human
(26:47):
being.
So if I'm gonna talk throughfour major areas, and that's
planning and organization, taskinitiation, time management, and
emotional regulation as itapplies to engaging in a maths
class.
Now for those that are gonnawatch it.
The thing itself looks a littlebit like that.
And for those that can't, don'tworry, I'm about to explain it.
(27:08):
I put this into Magic To Do atGoblin Tools.
It's free online.
So is just a breakdown ofengaging in a maths class.
So for a start engaging in mathsclass, emotional regulation, do
you even like maths?
Because if you don't, you areinstantly having an emotional
regulation issue to accessingthat learning, right?
(27:30):
Straight up.
But then Goblin Tools and MagicTo Do tells me that the first
thing is to participate activelyin the classroom.
And so I went, cool.
Break that down for me.
And it says, arrive prepared forthe maths class with the
necessary materials such astextbooks, notebooks, and
(27:52):
writing tools.
And I went, Hmm, great.
Break that down for me.
Because just in that instructionalone, planning and organization
heavy and time management heavyright there.
So then the first step ofarriving prepared is to gather
(28:13):
your textbooks and notebooksbefore heading to class.
Again, planning and organizationand time management.
And that's again, if you evenfeel like going to maths because
you like it, then.
We're still battling that.
And if anything goes wrong inthat tiny stage of getting ready
to go there, your emotionalregulation is out the window.
(28:34):
If you can't find your textbooksnotebooks or calculator, you
start to panic.
I'm gonna get in trouble.
Your anxiety's going through theroof.
Then it tells me, I said, allright, gather your textbooks,
notebooks.
Break that down for me.
And it said, well review yourlist of required materials.
What do you need to take withyou?
That's time management planningand organization again, and we
(28:56):
are not even at the maths classyet.
We're still contemplating going.
Then you've gotta locate yourtextbooks from your study area
or storage, then you've gottaget your notebooks.
Then you've gotta ensure you'vegot your writing implements.
Then you've gotta collect it alltogether, verify that they're in
good condition and complete thenyou've gotta transport it all.
You've gotta get your butt overthere with it in your hands.
(29:17):
That's just step one.
In order to participate activelyin maths class according to
Magic To Do, you have to listenattentively to teachers
instructions and explanations.
I've been a teacher, I've triedto be engaging most of my life,
but I know I never had a hundredpercent engagement all listening
(29:37):
to my instructions.
Sometimes they were garbageinstructions.
So, you know, we've got thatissue.
But then it also says thatyou've gotta maintain eye
contact and show engagementthrough body language, such as
sitting upright and facing theteacher Eye contact's often a
problem, but that's emotionalregulation because you have to
contain yourself to be able todo that.
(29:59):
Then as part of that,participating actively, it also
says you gotta contribute toclass discussions by sharing
ideas and viewpoints.
Now, I don't disagree withanything that's here about
participating actively.
I get that that's what it means.
But when we look at what thatrequires, speaking about
executive functioning, it is amassive load just to participate
(30:20):
and that's not being engaged ina math class.
There's another 10 instructions,like there's 10 in total, and
you can break each one of thosedown into 10.
And we're talking about amassive load that at any point
if it falls down and you feellike you are not being
successful in that class, youranxiety's gonna go through the
roof because your emotionalregulations out the window.
(30:41):
You can't remember anything thenfrom your working memory, and
you can't access what you doknow.
So your planning for the thingsgoing wrong is out the window
and then your inhibitioncontrol's gone and your
cognitive flexibility, you'restuck.
And then why aren't you doinganything?
Leisa Reichelt (30:58):
And it's worth kind of reflecting on the fact
that there's gonna be a bunch ofpeople in that classroom who
don't have executive functioningissues, who are achieving all of
this with relative ease.
it's this sense of the heavyload is carried by those kids in
the classroom who do have theexecutive functioning issues
Emma Brooksby (31:18):
because we're the ones that are singled out.
Oh you've forgotten your stuffagain.
It's often not meant to be mean.
It can sometimes just bemisguided if they're given
enough reminders.
Leisa Reichelt (31:33):
And, and then there's there's our whole cohort
of people pleasers as well
Emma Brooksby (31:37):
yeah.
And completely masking.
So you can see how academicperformance is influenced by
something that we get throughosmosis.
Executive functioning skills arelargely gathered through osmosis
and natural development.
And then trying andexperimenting with these things
as we develop.
(31:58):
I know for my people we need tobe taught how to function
executively, And get thattoolkit.
Leisa Reichelt (32:07):
Emma, when you're working with schools,
what are the kinds of thingsthat you are encouraging them to
do to accommodate kids who havegot executive functioning
issues?
Emma Brooksby (32:18):
So flexibility to start with and developing
teachers and schools to put thesystems in place, that mean that
everybody gets to succeed nomatter what.
So we are looking atunderstanding neurodivergence
and how it can present so thatexecutive function issues that,
(32:41):
that ADHD kid that's coming in,they're late again and they
don't have their stuff andthey've walked in and they've
cracked a joke'cause they thinkthey're hilarious and they're
trying to lighten the mood.
They're not trying to push yourbuttons.
They're trying to make it okayfor them to be in the space when
they know they've stuffed it upas an example.
So about, their own cognitiveflexibility and saying, okay,
(33:03):
this is the human in front ofme.
I have a choice here.
I'm the adult.
I can be emotionally regulatedand I can show grace and
compassion and all those thingsthat I wanna be shown, in this
instance.
So I think it's just thatincreasing the understanding of
the complexity.
ADHD in particular is not justabout being naughty and noticing
(33:28):
a squirrel, you know, the wholesquirrel thing.
There's so much to it theself-loathing that comes with it
and, all those negative thingsconsider that human.
So that's the tools andstrategies to support everybody
and look away from the ideal.
Every teacher will tell you, youcan have your perfect class in
your mind.
You're never getting it in reallife.
(33:49):
We can't change the kids.
So we need to change what we aredoing to make it work for the
people that I'm spending thishour with or this day with.
That's the message I'm trying tohit up.
Leisa Reichelt (33:59):
Emma, if you've got a child who has executive
dysfunction issues and they'rejust not cutting it in a
mainstream school environment,are there some other alternative
educational settings that youare aware of that you think
might potentially be moresuitable?
Emma Brooksby (34:14):
So there are a couple that some people really
don't know about here at U I, Idiscovered Big Picture Education
Australia, three years ago andwe're now a member with them and
home learners can participate inBig Picture education,
particularly their year 11 and12 with us.
Big Picture is amazing in myopinion.
(34:36):
And the research says it is too.
It's designed to sit inmainstream schools and they are
all over the country.
Sometimes, standalone academiesas well, right through to year
12.
It's a proper alternativecredential that is recognized at
universities and TAFEs and noexams.
It's personalized learning,individualized.
There's one school here inVictoria.
(34:57):
It's for year seven to 12 andit's wait list is as long as
it's enrollment list.
There are three in Tassie.
There are several all around thecountry.
The website has locations andwhatnot, but incredibly
flexible.
The learning advisors areamazing people.
And it's about learning throughinternships and leaving to
learn.
(35:18):
And so, you know, TAFE coursesand it's not just work
experience.
They're rich experiences.
And it's a small school model.
So 16 people in one advisory,right the way through.
So that depth of understandingeach other as individuals really
develops and the mentorship forthe older ones as they're
bringing through, but pursuingpassions and creating a
portfolio of evidence at theend.
(35:38):
All these amazing things thatyou've done.
If you don't know about BigPicture, have a look, they're
great.
But then there's Mastery SchoolsAustralia as well.
They're fairly new on the scene.
We've got one here in Victorianow.
We've got a couple of ourclients go there, started this
year.
So, they beginning 2021 inQueensland.
And they've got campuses,Queensland, Victoria, Tassie,
and it's a middle school foryears, four to 10.
(35:59):
They aim to develop academicfoundations and resilience, to
reenter mainstream educationAustralia wide.
It's evidence-based structuredapproaches.
It's, it's working for some ofour kids who School Can't is, is
a thing, for them and it, andit's working for them.
So that's, that's really nice tosee.
There's some special assistanceschools through Independent
(36:21):
Schools Australia.
That are really working for ourkids.
Then it's Montessori andSteiner.
We know about those, but, someof those have been great for our
kids.
Virtual school too.
I know it doesn't work foreverybody, but that's out there
as well.
I'm pulling from things that Iknow our clients have
experienced success with, butI'm also an advocate for
(36:42):
homeschooling and unschoolingbecause burnout is real and
sometimes a genuine break.
I know that families strugglewith that because it seems,
their kids aren't doinganything, but even if they were
going, what would they begetting out of it?
For someone who, was in thesystem and does the work I do, I
(37:02):
really do wanna say that.
It's okay.
For the unschooling andrecognizing burnout.
Acknowledging that in your youngperson can build them up in ways
that you could not imagine.
It's not to be discounted as a,I'm a lazy parent, or I'm doing
wrong by my kid.
(37:22):
I think you're doing the mostnoble thing that you can for
your young people.
If that's what they need.
Leisa Reichelt (37:27):
Well, certainly if they're in burnout, you often
don't have much choice anyway,
Emma Brooksby (37:31):
No, you don't.
Leisa Reichelt (37:31):
So there is that.
Fantastic.
Emma, um, just to wrap us up, ifthere were some resources that
you would love parents to knowabout with regards to exec
function
Emma Brooksby (37:44):
All right.
The Harvard University Center onthe Developing Child has some
great resources, and games andthings to play.
A whole lot of resources thatare free, you just download them
and find the appropriate age foryour kids.
This book, Learning to Plan andBe Organized, it's a useful
little, executive functionskills for kids with ADHD.
(38:05):
And it is just, a book, byKathleen Nadeau.
I know there are a lot outthere, but this is one that we
use with our clients.
Oh yeah, the goblin tools, themagic to do list to break
everything down.
ChatGPT will break down a taskfor you.
That is, it's a life changer forme.
Just saying.
Now I tell everyone Cos itsfree!.
Leisa Reichelt (38:25):
Amazing.
Well, Emma, it's been fantasticto spend some time with you
digging into understanding execfunction and the impact that,
that challenges with execfunction will contribute to the
school experience for our kids.
So thank you so much forspending the time with us.
Much appreciated.
Thank you.
There is so much to talk aboutwhen it comes to executive
(38:47):
function and school, but Emmadoes a wonderful job of really
demonstrating how complex thedemands of school are on
executive function and thestress and anxiety that this can
cause for our kids.
I have put some of the links tothe great resources Emma
suggested in the episode notes,as well as links to find out
more about School Can'tAustralia.
If you have found this podcasthelpful and I really hope that
(39:08):
you have, please do take amoment to share, subscribe,
maybe even give us a rating orreview.
It really does help us to getthis podcast in front of more
people who have School Can'tkids, and have not yet found the
community and the informationthat we share.
If you have some feedback for usor maybe you'd like to share
your own School Can't livedexperience, please drop us an
(39:29):
email toschoolcantpodcast@gmail.com.
If you are a parent or carer andyou are feeling distressed.
Remember, you can always callthe Parent Helpline in your
state.
A link with the number to callis in the episode notes.
Thank you again for listening.
We will talk again soon.
Take care.
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