July 21, 2025 • 34 mins
In this episode of the School Can't Experience Podcast, host Leisa Reichelt is joined by Louise Rogers from School Can't Australia and their guest, Eliza Fricker.
Eliza, known for her insightful School Can't Illustrations and webinars, shares her personal journey of navigating 'School Can't' with her daughter. They discuss the challenges of the school environment, the emotional toll on parents, and the eventual transition to a trauma-informed educational setting.
Eliza's candid conversation highlights the importance of parental instincts, the need for community support, and the significance of maintaining a strong parent-child connection.
00:00 Welcome to the School Can't Experience Podcast
00:28 Introducing Eliza Fricker
01:23 Eliza's Journey: From Illustrator to Advocate
02:46 Early Signs and Nursery School Challenges
05:16 Struggles in Primary School
11:52 The Breaking Point and Transition to Home Education
14:06 Finding a Trauma-Informed Educational Setting
17:50 Reflections on Parenting and Advocacy
28:50 Current Status and Future Outlook
32:37 Closing Thoughts and Resources
Recommended Resources
- Eliza on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/elizafricker_missingthemark/?hl=en
- Eliza on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MissingTheMark1
- Eliza’s website (including all her books): https://missingthemark.co.uk/
- Low Demand Parenting Online Course with Eliza & Dr Naomi Fisher: https://naomi-fisher.mykajabi.com/low-demand-parenting
- Pam Leo, Connection Parenting: https://connectionparenting.com/
- School Can’t Australia Facebook Community - https://www.facebook.com/groups/schoolphobiaschoolrefusalaustralia
- Make a donation to School Can’t Australia - https://www.schoolcantaustralia.com.au/get-involved
If you are a parent of carer in Australia and experiencing distress, please call Lifeline on 13 11 14 or contact the Parent Help Line. - https://kidshelpline.com.au/parents/issues/how-parentline-can-help-you
You can contact us to volunteer to share your School Can't story or some feedback via email on schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com
Disclaimer
The content of this podcast is based on personal lived experiences and is shared for informational and storytelling purposes only. It should not be treated as medical, psychological, or professional advice under any circumstances. If you have concerns about your health or well-being, please seek guidance from a doctor, therapist, or other qualified professional.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leisa Reichelt (00:05):
Hello and welcome to the School Can't
Experience Podcast.
I'm Leisa Reichelt and thispodcast is brought to you by the
School Can't Australiacommunity.
Caring for a young person who isstruggling to attend school can
be a stressful and isolatingexperience, but you are not
alone.
Thousands of parents acrossAustralia and many more around
the world face similarchallenges and experiences every
(00:26):
day.
Today I'm joined by LouiseRogers from School Can't
Australia, and we are talkingwith the delightful Eliza
Fricker.
Now, you might be familiar withEliza from her insightful
School, Can't Illustrations thatshe shares on social media, or
perhaps from the wonderfulwebinars that she does alongside
Dr.
Naomi Fisher.
Or perhaps you've read one ofher books like Can't, Not Won't
(00:49):
or maybe A Different Kind ofParenting.
Eliza is also the parent of adaughter who has experienced
School Can't and we are thrilledthat she has chosen to share
some of that experience with ustoday.
Alright.
Well Eliza Fricker we areabsolutely delighted to have you
joining us on our School Can'tExperience podcast.
Thank you so much for sharingsome time with us.
Eliza Fricker (01:11):
Thanks for having me.
Leisa Reichelt (01:12):
I'm sure lots of people are familiar with, so
much of the stuff that you doonline and your books but you
could give us a little bit ofcontext.
Tell us about yourself and yourfamily.
What do we need to know aboutyou?
Eliza Fricker (01:23):
Uh, so my name is Eliza Fricker.
I'm an author and illustrator.
I've always been an illustratorin some degree.
But my background, I suppose,was a bit more design led
previously, I used to have adesign business where I designed
wallpapers, and that just kindof got harder really to
maintain, sustain, I had to dodesign shows and travel around.
(01:49):
I, you know, had a childstruggling in school.
So I, that's when this kind ofwork started to, I actually
started doing this work as soonas my child was unable to go to
school.
What happens for me is that I'm.
I'm absorbing all theseexperiences.
I'm kind of processing them asmuch as I can in a highly
stressful situation that wasongoing for years.
(02:12):
As soon as my child wasn't ableto go to school, I started to
draw those experiences.
And the first drawings I did,which are, there's some of them
in Can't Not Won't, were, I wasjust drawing my daughter.
And I was drawing from oldphotographs before we were in
school before those experiencesstarted, to try and bring back
(02:32):
some feelings of what we wereexperiencing before the school
stuff.
But over time, you've seen mywork, it developed into those
experiences of, of what, whatwas going on for us in school.
Leisa Reichelt (02:46):
So if we were going to go through this kind of
School Can't journey with you,where would you say that the
beginning is?
Where does it start?
Eliza Fricker (02:57):
It's really interesting.
I did a post today.
And I had an old drawing thatI'd drawn off my daughter when
she was a baby, just in hernappy, rolling around on the
floor.
I dunno if you love babies',feet and their big heads, but,
their bodies are so lovely anddistinctive.
And I posted that yesterday andI was writing about those early
(03:18):
experiences of being a motherand really feeling things.
Obviously motherhood is quiteoverwhelming in itself.
But I think what I was trying toexplain was that there were
these instincts and feelings inthe beginning that things were a
little bit different for us.
Instinctively as parents, wemake those adjustments I had a
child who was clingy and quietand still slept in my bed and I
(03:43):
was already starting to seethose comparisons and edit my
experiences of motherhood withthose other mothers.
Perhaps not sharing as much thatI had a child still in my bed
when others were talking aboutgetting their child, into their
own bed.
And so there were those littleearly on things, but it wasn't
(04:03):
until nursery school, wherethere was a separation, I
suppose, of me and her where Ireally saw things in a different
way because I had that input,suddenly on us or my parenting,
where my child should be at, youknow, and developing.
And so that was the beginningbecause going to nursery school
(04:24):
was incredibly distressing forher.
Incredibly distressing.
And I was told that she would,you know, learn to get on with
it.
It was just a big change and shewould learn to cope with that.
And she was probably about twoand a half at the time.
She didn't, even in nursery, itwas very difficult for her.
She stuck to one nurseryteacher.
(04:46):
They said she was very quiet,didn't really talk, and I would
pick her up from nursery.
It was on my road actually.
Just near to my house.
But she would have these hugemeltdowns, crying the whole way
home and then crying, difficultto settle at home and then would
just crash out.
I had no comparison.
I didn't have another child.
(05:07):
It was my first and only child.
So we carried on with that.
And that carried on through toschool.
And again, it was, you know,she'll be fine or she is fine.
So what, what happened was thatI think that quietness in her
when she was in school that sortof suppression really, that she
(05:33):
learned very quickly to suppressthat distress.
She was always seen as awell-behaved child in school.
Leisa Reichelt (05:40):
So when you come to school time and it's less of
howling because you have to goaway from your mom, and it's
just learning to internalize itall.
Eliza Fricker (05:49):
Hmm.
Hmm.
Leisa Reichelt (05:51):
Did you have any awareness of that at the time?
Or is this you, in retrospect,looking back going that I
understand now what was goingon.
Eliza Fricker (06:00):
I had a meeting before speaking to you two
actually, and we were talkingabout the loudness of other
voices in this.
So, that's something I explorequite a lot in my work is what
happens to our instinct as aparent gets quieter.
And that's often because otherpeople are telling us it's a
different way or that we aremisinterpreting that.
(06:22):
Now that's in itself quiteproblematic.
If we were in a relationshipwhere we were distressed about
something and that person wassaying, no, you are fine.
That would be seen as quite aharmful relationship.
However, it still seems to comeup quite a lot within these
relationships we have within,you know, parents and
professionals.
It's very difficult as a parentwhen you are sharing this sort
(06:44):
of distress.
I was not comfortable be sharingthat stuff that was going on at
home, and the reason I wassharing it was in order that
some support would happen orsome action would happen, or I
think as well that someone wouldactually kind of validate that
and say, yes, that's soundinglike that's very difficult and
(07:07):
perhaps we need to look at someother options.
We didn't have any conversationslike that.
It was very much, well, let'soffset that with some positives
about, when they're here, theyseem fine.
And when they're here, they, youknow, they have nice time at
playtime or last week they had areally good week, so there
wasn't anyone really matchingwhat I was saying in those, in
(07:31):
those situations.
Leisa Reichelt (07:34):
So you were having that similar experience
at school where she was goingin, doing school, being on good
behavior, then coming home andmelting down.
Eliza Fricker (07:45):
And, but eventually what happened was
that that wasn't sustainable.
And when I speak to otherfamilies, something that, that,
that is a definite pattern.
So what happens is often thesechildren are very well behaved
in the beginning.
They might even be seen as highachievers or gifted and
talented.
They're doing really good work.
(08:05):
But over time for many of thesechildren, my own included is
that it's not sustainable.
So some things got to give, andover time my child became less
able to do that stuff in class.
So, the masking, if you like,became harder to do.
so, schoolwork could be harderfor them to do.
Putting pen to paper was harderto do.
(08:28):
Eventually they were sort ofwithdrawing from the classroom
and being out of the classroomSo over time they became less
active in that space.
They were more and morewithdrawn, but not doing
anything.
That kind of withdrawnness wasseen as just being still quite
placid.
Leisa Reichelt (08:47):
How does the school respond to that?
Eliza Fricker (08:50):
I mean, they tried stuff, but it was very
much around trying to get themto engage in school rather than
seeing that as a problem withthat environment and perhaps
suggesting that environment wasunsuitable.
So it was still very much aboutsuggesting within that school
environment.
(09:10):
Sometimes there'd be a teachingassistant that would play a card
game with them, or they wouldtry and find out what they were
interested in and bring some oftheir interest into the
learning.
I think some of the things theysuggested weren't necessarily
bad or harmful, it's just thatit was too late.
(09:30):
You know that that trauma of,and that impact of that
environment had already set inby then.
So, you know, of in terms ofresetting, it's very difficult
to do that when that's alreadythere.
Leisa Reichelt (09:43):
Eliza, was your daughter able to talk about what
she was struggling with atschool in those early days?
Eliza Fricker (09:51):
No.
I had a child who found thatpressure on her was already
enormous, and so conversationsaround what those difficulties
might be, just felt like morepressure.
So, there would be a shutdown.
I think this, is very common fora lot of children and families I
(10:13):
speak to.
When we talk about thatpressure, I think these children
already feel a lot of pressure.
Those questions do feel likemore pressure.
They feel that they've got tohave the right answer and they
don't know the answer.
And it's often multilayered andcomplex.
Sometimes I talk about if youwent into a hospital, you know,
adults talk about, oh, I hatehospitals.
(10:35):
And you're like, why?
Oh, I just don't like.
I just can't stand them.
And I think that's what for alot of children, that's that
feeling for them.
And we're asking them to kind ofarticulate what that is, and
that's often because we are inthis solution, fix narrative of,
you know, the amount of times Igot asked, is it too noisy?
(10:57):
Would they like some headphones?
I mean, they would've loved that'cause that would've sorted out
in a heartbeat, you know, done,sorted.
It's more complicated than thatand it's often that whole
environment, the smells, thesounds.
The pressures of the work, beingin that environment for six
hours, is an incredibly longtime to endure it.
(11:17):
Maybe if they only had to pop infor an hour, they might have
been able to manage it.
It's all the things, it's anawful lot for them.
And so, to try and ask what thatis with these direct questions
would often be met with a no, orshut up, or, I don't know.
Louise Rogers (11:38):
I was gonna ask, what was,'cause you've made a
change to your child'seducation.
Yes.
Eliza Fricker (11:45):
Yeah.
Louise Rogers (11:45):
what happened and what prompted that change?
Eliza Fricker (11:50):
It was a kind of forced hand.
We ended up with a child toounwell to go to school anymore.
They actually had a breakdown.
They were so anxious at thetime.
If I'd said, we're not gonna doschool.
That would've also been met witha no, because that would've
created an uncertainty as well.
You know, that flexible,creative brain that we need to
make new decisions and ideasisn't there when you are very
(12:12):
anxious and stressed.
That would've created its ownanxiety to say, we're not doing
school anymore.
Because, she wouldn't have knownwhat that looked like.
What does that mean?
This is all I know.
I'm not stopping that because Idon't wanna start something
else.
What I was kind of doing at thattime was just making
suggestions, like drip feedingsuggestions, of, you know, you
(12:38):
don't have to go to school.
There's other options.
I was putting those in there tosort of build a picture over
time, but also to give theoption that, if this doesn't
work, that's okay.
I'm not gonna be disappointedwith you.
And then it was the bigtransition from primary school
to secondary school.
So that's a huge leap becauseprimary school starts off and
(13:00):
there's a lot of coloring in andpainting and you know, relaxed
uniform and that secondaryschool is strict uniform,
homework, timetable, getyourself there, know, you gotta
get the bus, whatever.
It's a big leap.
And we had, the kind of legaldocumentation, educational
healthcare plan for support, butit was still, nothing had really
(13:22):
been done in terms of enhancedtransitional prep.
The wheels were already off bythen.
She was very, very poorly.
And so that transition, thatleap, she wasn't able to do
that.
And that's when she had herbreakdown and we ended up at
home.
I'm not sure how many years weended up at home, but I would
say it was a good two to threeyears, we were at home, after
that.
(13:43):
Recovering and repairing, and wehad a holistic tuition service.
It wasn't like schoolwork, theycame into the home.
They built up a relationship.
It was very much led by her dayto day, some engagement, maybe
not another day.
Slowly, slowly building up akind of relationship with
someone else where feltdifferent from school.
(14:06):
Until eventually we were veryfortunate that we were offered a
trauma informed setting.
So, a small setting.
It doesn't use any behaviorpolicy.
It uses restorative practice.
it's interest based curriculummostly.
Very different feel as well.
There isn't that obvioushierarchy between staff and
(14:27):
students.
I often say these places are abit of a shock when you first
see them, because we're so usedto schools ourselves, we're so
conditioned.
And then you go and see theseother places and they might not
look very shiny, you know, theymight not have all the
equipment.
But if they've got that kind ofheart and ethos there, that's
really what you're looking for.
I went full of my usual cynicismthat have built up over however
(14:50):
many years of disappointment andpeople misinterpreting things.
But I actually broke down andcried when I went to see this
place and I said, I feel like Ican let go.
I don't think you realize as aparent how much you're doing
until you feel that you can handa little bit of that over to
someone else.
(15:10):
That has been a huge part of myown healing from these
experiences, being able to justpass that over and not feel that
pressure myself about thatenvironment.
Leisa Reichelt (15:23):
My son went briefly to one of those
supported non-mainstreamsettings as well, and the first
thing they did was hand us aclipboard with about a hundred
different ways they couldsupport him.
I had a similar experience foryears and years and years you've
just had school saying, well,what do you think we should do?
And it's like.
Surely you know more about thisthan me.
I've had one child.
(15:44):
You've had thousands.
Surely you have ideas.
It'll always be, well, whatwould you like to do?
Like, but to get a clipboard,just go.
Why?
Why has it not always been likethis?
From day dot?
Louise Rogers (15:57):
We briefly had, some trial days in a trauma
informed setting and I had asimilar experience.
After the first day I went homeand I cried, I cried because I
thought, oh my goodness.
Finally, I found a place where Ican trust these people to look
after my son.
I can trust them, and I didn'tknow I was carrying it until it
(16:20):
all came out,
Eliza Fricker (16:21):
you don't know what you're carrying until you
can put it down, do you?
Louise Rogers (16:26):
no.
Leisa Reichelt (16:28):
It's interesting though, Lou, your son and my son
both didn't make it work atthose schools
Louise Rogers (16:35):
No.
Leisa Reichelt (16:36):
did, and I wonder whether the fact that
Eliza's daughter had that timeat home before she went, I mean
Eliza Fricker (16:42):
That kind of repair, restore time to reset
can be quite helpful.
All children are different, butsometimes they need that
recovery time.
I remember my mum, a real WestLondoner, tells it how it is
and, I had one meeting with ourlocal authority and they were
sort of throwing all thesesuggestions of places that would
be totally unsuitable.
(17:03):
And she said they could offeryou Disney World right now and
it wouldn't work.
And I was like, yeah, you'reabsolutely right.
Whatever, right now wouldn'twork.
'cause we're not ready.
We are not there yet.
So, and I say that to parents,you know, if you do find these
places, they're so rare.
It is great you found it, butmake sure it's the right time if
you can.
But you know, we don't know thisstuff.
(17:24):
We're just doing as we go,aren't we?
Hindsight's a wonderful thing.
Leisa Reichelt (17:28):
That's the thing, isn't it?
Because I think you're sold onthis idea that if you can just
change the settings.
To the correct settings, theneverything will work.
It's like, try the headphones,try the chill out room.
Try this, try that, you know, ifI could just get the settings
right, it'll work, that's justnot right a lot of the time.
Is it?
Eliza Fricker (17:47):
No.
Leisa Reichelt (17:50):
I would love to hear you talk through this
journey a little bit from yourperspective, Eliza, because we
know you now as like the guruwho can draw and find the words
and the pictures that explainsto us what we're feeling and
experiencing before we even knowit.
I assume you weren't like thisthe whole time.
(18:11):
How have you learned andexperienced this throughout,
your daughter's experiences?
Eliza Fricker (18:16):
I mean, I'm amazed when I speak to other
families'cause they seem to haveso much knowledge, imagination
and stuff I had nothing of whenI was going through.
I was completely naive to all ofthis.
My child's nearly 18 now, so.
I was going through this a longtime ago and there wasn't even
(18:37):
social media talking about it.
Much of this has been learningas I go and mistakes is part of
this.
And I think when we are underscrutiny with the school system,
it feels like we can't makemistakes.
I've drawn myself looking quitemanic, hoovering a lot of the
time because, I became thisperson that was terrified of
(19:00):
being seen, you know, not to bemanaging, coping.
And Dr.
Naomi Fisher, who, you'vealready spoken to before, We've
talked a lot around that kind of'mum's very anxious' narrative.
And she said, well, I'd bereally worried as a professional
if a parent wasn't anxious inthis situation, that would be a
(19:21):
red flag for me.
Not the other way around.
But I felt that I had to upholdthis appearance of
perfectionism, which wasabsolutely stifling.
And something that I don't thinkisn't a problem for parents now,
I think it's still always gonnabe there because we're under
(19:42):
that scrutiny, but it'ssomething I try and own a lot
more now and embrace that, youknow, I am a flawed human being.
Hence why I draw myself with,messy hair.
I'm not this perfect parent byany means, and we are not, I
think traditional parenting.
It's very kind of formulaic.
(20:03):
It kind of tells you that you doX, Y, Z and this will be the
outcome.
Whereas we know when we parentdifferently we are not parenting
with those guidelines.
We are ultimately having to wingit a lot and you know, we are
gonna get it wrong.
We're probably gonna get a lotof shut ups from our children as
well.
(20:24):
I think that's important messageto convey.
This is not about perfectionismor becoming a perfect parent or
a perfect family.
And moving away from thosepressures that we put on
ourselves.
I still have lots to write aboutin that, it's endless really the
material in terms of that stuff.
And I now have a teenager, sothere's even more material there
(20:47):
as you navigate the next,because it doesn't stop being a
parent, does it.
You sometimes think you've got ahandle on it for five minutes
and then it changes again.
Leisa Reichelt (20:57):
Yeah.
Five minutes is about right, Ithink.
So, when your daughter was muchyounger and still attending the
school, were you very much ofthe mind that your job was to
get her to go to school.
Eliza Fricker (21:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I felt like I could just dothat and we kept that facade
going, we were just abouthanging in there.
We were hanging by ourfingernails by this stage.
But that facade, of seeminglystill going to school.
That's why we talk about thisdropping off a cliff face.
It can really feel like thatwhen that school element goes
(21:35):
for whatever reason, it feelslike what is next?
School is a massive.
Well, I call it a kind of falseanchor, if you like, but it
tells other people that you'redoing things right.
It's the same as when we getasked about exams or how much
screen time or how manyvegetables you do, all things
that we kind of hang on to andput pressure on ourselves to be
(22:00):
able to do.
And it's quite a liberatingplace when we don't feel the
pressures of those things asmuch, and usually that's offset
because we have the green shootsor the glimmers that come in
through doing thingsdifferently.
And with that our confidencegrows.
This is better than it wasbefore.
(22:22):
We are not having thosemeltdowns anymore.
I think it all works in sync.
Once we start to do thingsdifferently and get those green
shoots and glimmers then ourconfidence grows and those other
voices hopefully become a bitquieter in this and we've become
less concerned about those otherthings.
(22:43):
And one thing that became quitepowerful for me was to start
saying, I don't know.
I used to think I always had tohave the answers.
And, and often I meet thosereally boring, really generic
questions that everyone feelsthey've got to ask you.
I now meet them with, I don'tknow.
And that's my kind of pushbackon it and talking about what's
(23:03):
working, I think we get into athing when things are bad, where
we've only got bad things tosay, but over time we can start
to sort of talk about what'sgood and what's working.
As we get more confident withit.
Leisa Reichelt (23:18):
Eliza, you said that, at the time you were going
through all of this, there wasno social media support groups
and everybody learning togetherHow did you come to a new
understanding?
Eliza Fricker (23:28):
I think over the years, particularly by the end
of it, I started to go to a lotof these meetings and parent
groups that were offered by ourlocal authority.
It started to take on a bit of,I mean, I've got a surreal sense
of humor anyway, but it startedto become more surreal and
almost nonsense.
(23:49):
I was sitting there andthinking, this is missing the
mark.
This is so far from where we areat.
I was sitting in these roomswhere parents were talking about
distressing situations they werein, and then we'd be offered,
five minutes of mindfulness oronce we were offered a scented
candle, and you just thinkyou've got no idea what is going
on.
There'd been some littlechanges, along the way.
(24:10):
Things like not worrying aboutbeing late in the morning, or
having the odd day off, it wasstill very hard to hear my voice
when we were in the system.
But once we were out, it wasreally just about getting that
connection back and, and I thinkthe hardest bit, there's a few
hard bits, but I think one ofthe hard bits was I got to a
(24:33):
point and I thought.
I've lost this connection withmy child.
You know, they're broken, I'mbroken but we were in different
places.
Being at home, it was aboutrepairing ultimately and getting
us back.
And that's what I thought.
I've got to get us back.
We know school is a short terminvestment.
We are lifelong with ourchildren.
(24:54):
I've got to get this back and I,I thought about a lot of my
childhood.
I call them the original lowdemand parents, but I suppose
they were parenting in a timewhere they didn't have the gaze
of social media or worryingabout that stuff.
And my parents were.
You know, they had their faults,but they were pretty low demand.
That was really helpful for memy dad was a political
(25:15):
cartoonist.
He had that surreal sense ofhumor.
He was at home with us and wehad a lot of fun.
He used to make up games.
Ridiculous games that werehilarious.
We used to draw together I'mbringing that stuff back.
That was the stuff I loved.
And I remember from mychildhood, I'm bringing this
into the home you know, forgetall the other stuff.
(25:38):
The most important thing is weare having a nice time together.
That was what I brought backthose memories of what, what I
remembered were, were good formy childhood, that I wanted my
my child to remember too.
And so yeah, taking thatpressure off with a lot of
playfulness.
Surprisingly we didn't end upwith a, feckless, reckless,
(25:58):
rude, misbehavng child, we justhad, connection.
Leisa Reichelt (26:04):
Yeah.
It's so important, isn't it?
Keeping that connection strongbetween you and your child, is
just such a, precondition fordoing well in the future way
more than passing some tests atschool?
Eliza Fricker (26:17):
And that feeling.
I think what we would alwaysremember if, you know, think
about our childhood is.
Did our parents have our back?
You know, that's what will beremembered.
I really feel it's not aboutwhether you get it right or
wrong my mum used to iron thesheets for the bed.
I'd never do that.
It's about do they have my back?
Do they get me, that's the stuffthat will be remembered and
(26:37):
treasured.
Louise Rogers (26:38):
I've noticed here in Australia that over the last,
few years, parents are a lotmore confident about speaking
out about the difficulties theiryoung people are having and,
advocating for changes in theeducation system.
Are you noticing that in theUnited Kingdom as well?
Eliza Fricker (26:57):
I think parents are amazing advocates because
they do know their childrenbest.
There is definitely pushback andI suppose the most radical one
is ones that, you know, pulltheir kids out of the system
ultimately.
I do worry because the numbersare incredibly high.
Now we've got a governmentthat's very difficult to read on
(27:19):
most things, who we thought weregonna be a bit more progressive,
who are doing some very bizarrethings.
We've also waiting on a WhitePaper on the Special Educational
Needs that keeps getting pushedback.
It's meant to be in the autumn.
We're meant to get that.
It is a worry because thisgovernment are talking about
inclusion.
They're talking that they'regonna meet all children's needs
(27:41):
and therefore we won't needthese healthcare plans that we
have over here.
It's always a worry that.
Our voices getting louder willnot be the voice of change, but
it, well, it could be the voiceof change, but the wrong way.
It could mean the government goharder on families.
A lot of Europe, you're notallowed to Home Ed.
They've put a big, tax onalternative provision here.
(28:04):
They said it was for privateschools, independent schools,
which people assumed were thehigher echelons like Eaton and
things like that.
All of them have got a 20% backbill.
Now that's led to a lot ofschools thinking they may have
to close.
It's always a worry that whenour voices get louder and we
start to find different ways thepowers that be get tougher.
(28:27):
In the UK we got theintroduction of the national
curriculum, but we've gone veryhard line on attendance and
fines.
Parents just want the option tohave other options, but
sometimes it feels like theymake that harder
Louise Rogers (28:43):
for
Eliza Fricker (28:43):
parents to access or they, there is always the
threat that they might make itharder for parents to access.
Leisa Reichelt (28:50):
Let's finish by talking about how your
daughter's doing now, Eliza, inthis new educational environment
you said she's nearly 18 now,looking to the future, how are
things feeling and how are youtwo thinking about, what the
future's gonna hold?
Eliza Fricker (29:07):
she's doing good.
She's got herself a littlepart-time job.
She's, you know, out and about.
You know, she's doing stuff, Isuppose, that still takes
enormous amount of scaffoldingto do that for her at times.
You know, it's, it's in and out,isn't it, with the scaffolding.
I suppose it's, we'recomfortable with that sort of
(29:27):
uncertainty now.
We're in that sort of intenseperiod where we have.
We've, we did GCSEs and we haveA Levels, and then kids go to
university.
It's very intensive.
I don't know what she's gonnado, she doesn't know what she's
gonna do, but uncertainty is OKnow.
I can sit with that a lot morethan I would've previously.
(29:48):
I don't have that sadness orsorrow around missed
opportunities anymore.
We are just doing itdifferently, but the rewards are
there.
Having a child who is well, islucid in conversation and able
to communicate.
Those are the bits that mattermuch more than all the other
bits.
We were joking before we cameon.
(30:10):
Hitting midlife, my friends areall going through not knowing
what they wanna do and did theygo on the right path through
their own life.
So, you know, I thinkuncertainty is there through
life, it's really about gettingto a place where we can sit with
that and be okay with that, themost important thing is having a
child who is well and happy.
(30:31):
When When we've had childrenthat you don't know if they're
gonna make it.
That's what we want most, just awell and happy child.
Leisa Reichelt (30:41):
Yeah,
Louise Rogers (30:44):
Yep.
Leisa Reichelt (30:44):
Eliza, if you had a time machine and you could
go back in time and tap yourselfon the shoulder and give
yourself a little bit ofknowledge that you didn't have,
when do you reckon you'd go backto and what do you reckon you'd
tell yourself?
Eliza Fricker (30:57):
I'd probably go back to just before nursery and
not have done it.
So, you know, be, what is it,what have you got, Byron Bay,
where you
Leisa Reichelt (31:04):
I.
Eliza Fricker (31:04):
Well, I'm in Brighton, so I'd embrace the
Byron Bay or Brighton of Englandand, you know, not have done it.
Probably.
I'd just love to have known thatall this stuff that's out there
now, I had a family, that Ispoke to last week and their
child was just about to startschool
Louise Rogers (31:20):
Okay.
Eliza Fricker (31:20):
they said, we're not gonna do it.
We just know it's not for them.
And I thought, wow, becausethey've got all this knowledge
out there, they can make thatinformed decision.
It's not saying they won't evergo or they won't go somewhere,
but how wonderful to be able tomake an informed decision like
that.
Leisa Reichelt (31:35):
And I know you have a million different
resources to choose from, butwhat would be like a resource or
two that you would say.
Start here.
Eliza Fricker (31:43):
I suppose probably just those webinars
that Naomi Fisher and I havedone, which you can watch them
when you've got time to, andhopefully it just, it just gives
you some options.
'cause I think that's what weneed.
I'd never say school isn't foreveryone.
Even my daughter she will talknow quite fondly about elements
of school.
These things are complex andmulti-layered.
(32:03):
It's never simple.
Hopefully you'll find thingsthat resonate for you and make
you feel a little bit supportedwith making some decisions that
work for you.
So, I'm just looking at mybookcase of all my books on
there.
Pam Leo's book's really lovely.
The Connection Parenting, that'sa lovely book.
Anything that's about parentingfirst and foremost, I think over
(32:28):
the kind of learning element,you know, that's the most
important thing to keep yourinstincts because you know your
child best.
No one else knows your childbest.
Louise Rogers (32:37):
I think your Missing The Mark page has been
very impactful for so manyparents here in Australia.
There is so much of it thatwe've shared amongst each other,
we've discussed amongst eachother, and, it's really helped
us all process what we've beenexperiencing.
Thank you for that.
(32:58):
Because I think it's made a bigdifference to our parent
community to have that resource.
Thank you.
Eliza Fricker (33:06):
Well, I'm not saying it as well as Bell Hooks
would've articulated it, but wecan't heal in isolation.
We need community, you know, weneed these connections and it's
so important because thatremoves that shame around this
and that isolation.
We need those connections.
Leisa Reichelt (33:23):
That's great.
Alright then let's wrap it up.
Thank you so much, Eliza, forjoining us.
Really, really appreciate yourtime.
Eliza Fricker (33:29):
thank you.
Louise Rogers (33:31):
Thank you.
Leisa Reichelt (33:32):
What a delight to speak with Eliza today, and I
really hope there was somethingin this conversation that
resonated for you.
If you want more from Eliza,we've put links to her books,
social media, webinars, all thegood stuff in the episode notes.
And if you found this podcasthelpful, please do take a moment
to share or subscribe.
Maybe even give us a rating or areview on Spotify or Apple
(33:52):
Podcasts.
This really does make a hugedifference in helping us get the
podcast into the hands of peoplewho have School Can't kids, and
have not yet found our communityand all the information that we
share.
And if you've been inspired byEliza to share your own School
Can't Lived Experience with ourcommunity, please drop me an
email toschoolcantpodcast@gmail.com.
It is a very relaxed process torecord an episode.
(34:14):
Anyone can do it, and I wouldlove to hear from you.
If you are a parent or carer inAustralia and you are feeling
distressed, please remember youcan always call the Parent
Helpline in your state.
A link with the number to callis in the episode notes.
Thanks again for listening, andwe will talk again soon.
Take care.
Hello and welcome to the School Can't
Experience Podcast.
I'm Leisa Reichelt and thispodcast is brought to you by the
School Can't Australiacommunity.
Caring for a young person who isstruggling to attend school can
be a stressful and isolatingexperience, but you are not
alone.
Thousands of parents acrossAustralia and many more around
the world face similarchallenges and experiences every
(00:26):
day.
Today I'm joined by LouiseRogers from School Can't
Australia, and we are talkingwith the delightful Eliza
Fricker.
Now, you might be familiar withEliza from her insightful
School, Can't Illustrations thatshe shares on social media, or
perhaps from the wonderfulwebinars that she does alongside
Dr.
Naomi Fisher.
Or perhaps you've read one ofher books like Can't, Not Won't
(00:49):
or maybe A Different Kind ofParenting.
Eliza is also the parent of adaughter who has experienced
School Can't and we are thrilledthat she has chosen to share
some of that experience with ustoday.
Alright.
Well Eliza Fricker we areabsolutely delighted to have you
joining us on our School Can'tExperience podcast.
Thank you so much for sharingsome time with us.
Eliza Fricker (01:11):
Thanks for having me.
Leisa Reichelt (01:12):
I'm sure lots of people are familiar with, so
much of the stuff that you doonline and your books but you
could give us a little bit ofcontext.
Tell us about yourself and yourfamily.
What do we need to know aboutyou?
Eliza Fricker (01:23):
Uh, so my name is Eliza Fricker.
I'm an author and illustrator.
I've always been an illustratorin some degree.
But my background, I suppose,was a bit more design led
previously, I used to have adesign business where I designed
wallpapers, and that just kindof got harder really to
maintain, sustain, I had to dodesign shows and travel around.
(01:49):
I, you know, had a childstruggling in school.
So I, that's when this kind ofwork started to, I actually
started doing this work as soonas my child was unable to go to
school.
What happens for me is that I'm.
I'm absorbing all theseexperiences.
I'm kind of processing them asmuch as I can in a highly
stressful situation that wasongoing for years.
(02:12):
As soon as my child wasn't ableto go to school, I started to
draw those experiences.
And the first drawings I did,which are, there's some of them
in Can't Not Won't, were, I wasjust drawing my daughter.
And I was drawing from oldphotographs before we were in
school before those experiencesstarted, to try and bring back
(02:32):
some feelings of what we wereexperiencing before the school
stuff.
But over time, you've seen mywork, it developed into those
experiences of, of what, whatwas going on for us in school.
Leisa Reichelt (02:46):
So if we were going to go through this kind of
School Can't journey with you,where would you say that the
beginning is?
Where does it start?
Eliza Fricker (02:57):
It's really interesting.
I did a post today.
And I had an old drawing thatI'd drawn off my daughter when
she was a baby, just in hernappy, rolling around on the
floor.
I dunno if you love babies',feet and their big heads, but,
their bodies are so lovely anddistinctive.
And I posted that yesterday andI was writing about those early
(03:18):
experiences of being a motherand really feeling things.
Obviously motherhood is quiteoverwhelming in itself.
But I think what I was trying toexplain was that there were
these instincts and feelings inthe beginning that things were a
little bit different for us.
Instinctively as parents, wemake those adjustments I had a
child who was clingy and quietand still slept in my bed and I
(03:43):
was already starting to seethose comparisons and edit my
experiences of motherhood withthose other mothers.
Perhaps not sharing as much thatI had a child still in my bed
when others were talking aboutgetting their child, into their
own bed.
And so there were those littleearly on things, but it wasn't
(04:03):
until nursery school, wherethere was a separation, I
suppose, of me and her where Ireally saw things in a different
way because I had that input,suddenly on us or my parenting,
where my child should be at, youknow, and developing.
And so that was the beginningbecause going to nursery school
(04:24):
was incredibly distressing forher.
Incredibly distressing.
And I was told that she would,you know, learn to get on with
it.
It was just a big change and shewould learn to cope with that.
And she was probably about twoand a half at the time.
She didn't, even in nursery, itwas very difficult for her.
She stuck to one nurseryteacher.
(04:46):
They said she was very quiet,didn't really talk, and I would
pick her up from nursery.
It was on my road actually.
Just near to my house.
But she would have these hugemeltdowns, crying the whole way
home and then crying, difficultto settle at home and then would
just crash out.
I had no comparison.
I didn't have another child.
(05:07):
It was my first and only child.
So we carried on with that.
And that carried on through toschool.
And again, it was, you know,she'll be fine or she is fine.
So what, what happened was thatI think that quietness in her
when she was in school that sortof suppression really, that she
(05:33):
learned very quickly to suppressthat distress.
She was always seen as awell-behaved child in school.
Leisa Reichelt (05:40):
So when you come to school time and it's less of
howling because you have to goaway from your mom, and it's
just learning to internalize itall.
Eliza Fricker (05:49):
Hmm.
Hmm.
Leisa Reichelt (05:51):
Did you have any awareness of that at the time?
Or is this you, in retrospect,looking back going that I
understand now what was goingon.
Eliza Fricker (06:00):
I had a meeting before speaking to you two
actually, and we were talkingabout the loudness of other
voices in this.
So, that's something I explorequite a lot in my work is what
happens to our instinct as aparent gets quieter.
And that's often because otherpeople are telling us it's a
different way or that we aremisinterpreting that.
(06:22):
Now that's in itself quiteproblematic.
If we were in a relationshipwhere we were distressed about
something and that person wassaying, no, you are fine.
That would be seen as quite aharmful relationship.
However, it still seems to comeup quite a lot within these
relationships we have within,you know, parents and
professionals.
It's very difficult as a parentwhen you are sharing this sort
(06:44):
of distress.
I was not comfortable be sharingthat stuff that was going on at
home, and the reason I wassharing it was in order that
some support would happen orsome action would happen, or I
think as well that someone wouldactually kind of validate that
and say, yes, that's soundinglike that's very difficult and
(07:07):
perhaps we need to look at someother options.
We didn't have any conversationslike that.
It was very much, well, let'soffset that with some positives
about, when they're here, theyseem fine.
And when they're here, they, youknow, they have nice time at
playtime or last week they had areally good week, so there
wasn't anyone really matchingwhat I was saying in those, in
(07:31):
those situations.
Leisa Reichelt (07:34):
So you were having that similar experience
at school where she was goingin, doing school, being on good
behavior, then coming home andmelting down.
Eliza Fricker (07:45):
And, but eventually what happened was
that that wasn't sustainable.
And when I speak to otherfamilies, something that, that,
that is a definite pattern.
So what happens is often thesechildren are very well behaved
in the beginning.
They might even be seen as highachievers or gifted and
talented.
They're doing really good work.
(08:05):
But over time for many of thesechildren, my own included is
that it's not sustainable.
So some things got to give, andover time my child became less
able to do that stuff in class.
So, the masking, if you like,became harder to do.
so, schoolwork could be harderfor them to do.
Putting pen to paper was harderto do.
(08:28):
Eventually they were sort ofwithdrawing from the classroom
and being out of the classroomSo over time they became less
active in that space.
They were more and morewithdrawn, but not doing
anything.
That kind of withdrawnness wasseen as just being still quite
placid.
Leisa Reichelt (08:47):
How does the school respond to that?
Eliza Fricker (08:50):
I mean, they tried stuff, but it was very
much around trying to get themto engage in school rather than
seeing that as a problem withthat environment and perhaps
suggesting that environment wasunsuitable.
So it was still very much aboutsuggesting within that school
environment.
(09:10):
Sometimes there'd be a teachingassistant that would play a card
game with them, or they wouldtry and find out what they were
interested in and bring some oftheir interest into the
learning.
I think some of the things theysuggested weren't necessarily
bad or harmful, it's just thatit was too late.
(09:30):
You know that that trauma of,and that impact of that
environment had already set inby then.
So, you know, of in terms ofresetting, it's very difficult
to do that when that's alreadythere.
Leisa Reichelt (09:43):
Eliza, was your daughter able to talk about what
she was struggling with atschool in those early days?
Eliza Fricker (09:51):
No.
I had a child who found thatpressure on her was already
enormous, and so conversationsaround what those difficulties
might be, just felt like morepressure.
So, there would be a shutdown.
I think this, is very common fora lot of children and families I
(10:13):
speak to.
When we talk about thatpressure, I think these children
already feel a lot of pressure.
Those questions do feel likemore pressure.
They feel that they've got tohave the right answer and they
don't know the answer.
And it's often multilayered andcomplex.
Sometimes I talk about if youwent into a hospital, you know,
adults talk about, oh, I hatehospitals.
(10:35):
And you're like, why?
Oh, I just don't like.
I just can't stand them.
And I think that's what for alot of children, that's that
feeling for them.
And we're asking them to kind ofarticulate what that is, and
that's often because we are inthis solution, fix narrative of,
you know, the amount of times Igot asked, is it too noisy?
(10:57):
Would they like some headphones?
I mean, they would've loved that'cause that would've sorted out
in a heartbeat, you know, done,sorted.
It's more complicated than thatand it's often that whole
environment, the smells, thesounds.
The pressures of the work, beingin that environment for six
hours, is an incredibly longtime to endure it.
(11:17):
Maybe if they only had to pop infor an hour, they might have
been able to manage it.
It's all the things, it's anawful lot for them.
And so, to try and ask what thatis with these direct questions
would often be met with a no, orshut up, or, I don't know.
Louise Rogers (11:38):
I was gonna ask, what was,'cause you've made a
change to your child'seducation.
Yes.
Eliza Fricker (11:45):
Yeah.
Louise Rogers (11:45):
what happened and what prompted that change?
Eliza Fricker (11:50):
It was a kind of forced hand.
We ended up with a child toounwell to go to school anymore.
They actually had a breakdown.
They were so anxious at thetime.
If I'd said, we're not gonna doschool.
That would've also been met witha no, because that would've
created an uncertainty as well.
You know, that flexible,creative brain that we need to
make new decisions and ideasisn't there when you are very
(12:12):
anxious and stressed.
That would've created its ownanxiety to say, we're not doing
school anymore.
Because, she wouldn't have knownwhat that looked like.
What does that mean?
This is all I know.
I'm not stopping that because Idon't wanna start something
else.
What I was kind of doing at thattime was just making
suggestions, like drip feedingsuggestions, of, you know, you
(12:38):
don't have to go to school.
There's other options.
I was putting those in there tosort of build a picture over
time, but also to give theoption that, if this doesn't
work, that's okay.
I'm not gonna be disappointedwith you.
And then it was the bigtransition from primary school
to secondary school.
So that's a huge leap becauseprimary school starts off and
(13:00):
there's a lot of coloring in andpainting and you know, relaxed
uniform and that secondaryschool is strict uniform,
homework, timetable, getyourself there, know, you gotta
get the bus, whatever.
It's a big leap.
And we had, the kind of legaldocumentation, educational
healthcare plan for support, butit was still, nothing had really
(13:22):
been done in terms of enhancedtransitional prep.
The wheels were already off bythen.
She was very, very poorly.
And so that transition, thatleap, she wasn't able to do
that.
And that's when she had herbreakdown and we ended up at
home.
I'm not sure how many years weended up at home, but I would
say it was a good two to threeyears, we were at home, after
that.
(13:43):
Recovering and repairing, and wehad a holistic tuition service.
It wasn't like schoolwork, theycame into the home.
They built up a relationship.
It was very much led by her dayto day, some engagement, maybe
not another day.
Slowly, slowly building up akind of relationship with
someone else where feltdifferent from school.
(14:06):
Until eventually we were veryfortunate that we were offered a
trauma informed setting.
So, a small setting.
It doesn't use any behaviorpolicy.
It uses restorative practice.
it's interest based curriculummostly.
Very different feel as well.
There isn't that obvioushierarchy between staff and
(14:27):
students.
I often say these places are abit of a shock when you first
see them, because we're so usedto schools ourselves, we're so
conditioned.
And then you go and see theseother places and they might not
look very shiny, you know, theymight not have all the
equipment.
But if they've got that kind ofheart and ethos there, that's
really what you're looking for.
I went full of my usual cynicismthat have built up over however
(14:50):
many years of disappointment andpeople misinterpreting things.
But I actually broke down andcried when I went to see this
place and I said, I feel like Ican let go.
I don't think you realize as aparent how much you're doing
until you feel that you can handa little bit of that over to
someone else.
(15:10):
That has been a huge part of myown healing from these
experiences, being able to justpass that over and not feel that
pressure myself about thatenvironment.
Leisa Reichelt (15:23):
My son went briefly to one of those
supported non-mainstreamsettings as well, and the first
thing they did was hand us aclipboard with about a hundred
different ways they couldsupport him.
I had a similar experience foryears and years and years you've
just had school saying, well,what do you think we should do?
And it's like.
Surely you know more about thisthan me.
I've had one child.
(15:44):
You've had thousands.
Surely you have ideas.
It'll always be, well, whatwould you like to do?
Like, but to get a clipboard,just go.
Why?
Why has it not always been likethis?
From day dot?
Louise Rogers (15:57):
We briefly had, some trial days in a trauma
informed setting and I had asimilar experience.
After the first day I went homeand I cried, I cried because I
thought, oh my goodness.
Finally, I found a place where Ican trust these people to look
after my son.
I can trust them, and I didn'tknow I was carrying it until it
(16:20):
all came out,
Eliza Fricker (16:21):
you don't know what you're carrying until you
can put it down, do you?
Louise Rogers (16:26):
no.
Leisa Reichelt (16:28):
It's interesting though, Lou, your son and my son
both didn't make it work atthose schools
Louise Rogers (16:35):
No.
Leisa Reichelt (16:36):
did, and I wonder whether the fact that
Eliza's daughter had that timeat home before she went, I mean
Eliza Fricker (16:42):
That kind of repair, restore time to reset
can be quite helpful.
All children are different, butsometimes they need that
recovery time.
I remember my mum, a real WestLondoner, tells it how it is
and, I had one meeting with ourlocal authority and they were
sort of throwing all thesesuggestions of places that would
be totally unsuitable.
(17:03):
And she said they could offeryou Disney World right now and
it wouldn't work.
And I was like, yeah, you'reabsolutely right.
Whatever, right now wouldn'twork.
'cause we're not ready.
We are not there yet.
So, and I say that to parents,you know, if you do find these
places, they're so rare.
It is great you found it, butmake sure it's the right time if
you can.
But you know, we don't know thisstuff.
(17:24):
We're just doing as we go,aren't we?
Hindsight's a wonderful thing.
Leisa Reichelt (17:28):
That's the thing, isn't it?
Because I think you're sold onthis idea that if you can just
change the settings.
To the correct settings, theneverything will work.
It's like, try the headphones,try the chill out room.
Try this, try that, you know, ifI could just get the settings
right, it'll work, that's justnot right a lot of the time.
Is it?
Eliza Fricker (17:47):
No.
Leisa Reichelt (17:50):
I would love to hear you talk through this
journey a little bit from yourperspective, Eliza, because we
know you now as like the guruwho can draw and find the words
and the pictures that explainsto us what we're feeling and
experiencing before we even knowit.
I assume you weren't like thisthe whole time.
(18:11):
How have you learned andexperienced this throughout,
your daughter's experiences?
Eliza Fricker (18:16):
I mean, I'm amazed when I speak to other
families'cause they seem to haveso much knowledge, imagination
and stuff I had nothing of whenI was going through.
I was completely naive to all ofthis.
My child's nearly 18 now, so.
I was going through this a longtime ago and there wasn't even
(18:37):
social media talking about it.
Much of this has been learningas I go and mistakes is part of
this.
And I think when we are underscrutiny with the school system,
it feels like we can't makemistakes.
I've drawn myself looking quitemanic, hoovering a lot of the
time because, I became thisperson that was terrified of
(19:00):
being seen, you know, not to bemanaging, coping.
And Dr.
Naomi Fisher, who, you'vealready spoken to before, We've
talked a lot around that kind of'mum's very anxious' narrative.
And she said, well, I'd bereally worried as a professional
if a parent wasn't anxious inthis situation, that would be a
(19:21):
red flag for me.
Not the other way around.
But I felt that I had to upholdthis appearance of
perfectionism, which wasabsolutely stifling.
And something that I don't thinkisn't a problem for parents now,
I think it's still always gonnabe there because we're under
(19:42):
that scrutiny, but it'ssomething I try and own a lot
more now and embrace that, youknow, I am a flawed human being.
Hence why I draw myself with,messy hair.
I'm not this perfect parent byany means, and we are not, I
think traditional parenting.
It's very kind of formulaic.
(20:03):
It kind of tells you that you doX, Y, Z and this will be the
outcome.
Whereas we know when we parentdifferently we are not parenting
with those guidelines.
We are ultimately having to wingit a lot and you know, we are
gonna get it wrong.
We're probably gonna get a lotof shut ups from our children as
well.
(20:24):
I think that's important messageto convey.
This is not about perfectionismor becoming a perfect parent or
a perfect family.
And moving away from thosepressures that we put on
ourselves.
I still have lots to write aboutin that, it's endless really the
material in terms of that stuff.
And I now have a teenager, sothere's even more material there
(20:47):
as you navigate the next,because it doesn't stop being a
parent, does it.
You sometimes think you've got ahandle on it for five minutes
and then it changes again.
Leisa Reichelt (20:57):
Yeah.
Five minutes is about right, Ithink.
So, when your daughter was muchyounger and still attending the
school, were you very much ofthe mind that your job was to
get her to go to school.
Eliza Fricker (21:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I felt like I could just dothat and we kept that facade
going, we were just abouthanging in there.
We were hanging by ourfingernails by this stage.
But that facade, of seeminglystill going to school.
That's why we talk about thisdropping off a cliff face.
It can really feel like thatwhen that school element goes
(21:35):
for whatever reason, it feelslike what is next?
School is a massive.
Well, I call it a kind of falseanchor, if you like, but it
tells other people that you'redoing things right.
It's the same as when we getasked about exams or how much
screen time or how manyvegetables you do, all things
that we kind of hang on to andput pressure on ourselves to be
(22:00):
able to do.
And it's quite a liberatingplace when we don't feel the
pressures of those things asmuch, and usually that's offset
because we have the green shootsor the glimmers that come in
through doing thingsdifferently.
And with that our confidencegrows.
This is better than it wasbefore.
(22:22):
We are not having thosemeltdowns anymore.
I think it all works in sync.
Once we start to do thingsdifferently and get those green
shoots and glimmers then ourconfidence grows and those other
voices hopefully become a bitquieter in this and we've become
less concerned about those otherthings.
(22:43):
And one thing that became quitepowerful for me was to start
saying, I don't know.
I used to think I always had tohave the answers.
And, and often I meet thosereally boring, really generic
questions that everyone feelsthey've got to ask you.
I now meet them with, I don'tknow.
And that's my kind of pushbackon it and talking about what's
(23:03):
working, I think we get into athing when things are bad, where
we've only got bad things tosay, but over time we can start
to sort of talk about what'sgood and what's working.
As we get more confident withit.
Leisa Reichelt (23:18):
Eliza, you said that, at the time you were going
through all of this, there wasno social media support groups
and everybody learning togetherHow did you come to a new
understanding?
Eliza Fricker (23:28):
I think over the years, particularly by the end
of it, I started to go to a lotof these meetings and parent
groups that were offered by ourlocal authority.
It started to take on a bit of,I mean, I've got a surreal sense
of humor anyway, but it startedto become more surreal and
almost nonsense.
(23:49):
I was sitting there andthinking, this is missing the
mark.
This is so far from where we areat.
I was sitting in these roomswhere parents were talking about
distressing situations they werein, and then we'd be offered,
five minutes of mindfulness oronce we were offered a scented
candle, and you just thinkyou've got no idea what is going
on.
There'd been some littlechanges, along the way.
(24:10):
Things like not worrying aboutbeing late in the morning, or
having the odd day off, it wasstill very hard to hear my voice
when we were in the system.
But once we were out, it wasreally just about getting that
connection back and, and I thinkthe hardest bit, there's a few
hard bits, but I think one ofthe hard bits was I got to a
(24:33):
point and I thought.
I've lost this connection withmy child.
You know, they're broken, I'mbroken but we were in different
places.
Being at home, it was aboutrepairing ultimately and getting
us back.
And that's what I thought.
I've got to get us back.
We know school is a short terminvestment.
We are lifelong with ourchildren.
(24:54):
I've got to get this back and I,I thought about a lot of my
childhood.
I call them the original lowdemand parents, but I suppose
they were parenting in a timewhere they didn't have the gaze
of social media or worryingabout that stuff.
And my parents were.
You know, they had their faults,but they were pretty low demand.
That was really helpful for memy dad was a political
(25:15):
cartoonist.
He had that surreal sense ofhumor.
He was at home with us and wehad a lot of fun.
He used to make up games.
Ridiculous games that werehilarious.
We used to draw together I'mbringing that stuff back.
That was the stuff I loved.
And I remember from mychildhood, I'm bringing this
into the home you know, forgetall the other stuff.
(25:38):
The most important thing is weare having a nice time together.
That was what I brought backthose memories of what, what I
remembered were, were good formy childhood, that I wanted my
my child to remember too.
And so yeah, taking thatpressure off with a lot of
playfulness.
Surprisingly we didn't end upwith a, feckless, reckless,
(25:58):
rude, misbehavng child, we justhad, connection.
Leisa Reichelt (26:04):
Yeah.
It's so important, isn't it?
Keeping that connection strongbetween you and your child, is
just such a, precondition fordoing well in the future way
more than passing some tests atschool?
Eliza Fricker (26:17):
And that feeling.
I think what we would alwaysremember if, you know, think
about our childhood is.
Did our parents have our back?
You know, that's what will beremembered.
I really feel it's not aboutwhether you get it right or
wrong my mum used to iron thesheets for the bed.
I'd never do that.
It's about do they have my back?
Do they get me, that's the stuffthat will be remembered and
(26:37):
treasured.
Louise Rogers (26:38):
I've noticed here in Australia that over the last,
few years, parents are a lotmore confident about speaking
out about the difficulties theiryoung people are having and,
advocating for changes in theeducation system.
Are you noticing that in theUnited Kingdom as well?
Eliza Fricker (26:57):
I think parents are amazing advocates because
they do know their childrenbest.
There is definitely pushback andI suppose the most radical one
is ones that, you know, pulltheir kids out of the system
ultimately.
I do worry because the numbersare incredibly high.
Now we've got a governmentthat's very difficult to read on
(27:19):
most things, who we thought weregonna be a bit more progressive,
who are doing some very bizarrethings.
We've also waiting on a WhitePaper on the Special Educational
Needs that keeps getting pushedback.
It's meant to be in the autumn.
We're meant to get that.
It is a worry because thisgovernment are talking about
inclusion.
They're talking that they'regonna meet all children's needs
(27:41):
and therefore we won't needthese healthcare plans that we
have over here.
It's always a worry that.
Our voices getting louder willnot be the voice of change, but
it, well, it could be the voiceof change, but the wrong way.
It could mean the government goharder on families.
A lot of Europe, you're notallowed to Home Ed.
They've put a big, tax onalternative provision here.
(28:04):
They said it was for privateschools, independent schools,
which people assumed were thehigher echelons like Eaton and
things like that.
All of them have got a 20% backbill.
Now that's led to a lot ofschools thinking they may have
to close.
It's always a worry that whenour voices get louder and we
start to find different ways thepowers that be get tougher.
(28:27):
In the UK we got theintroduction of the national
curriculum, but we've gone veryhard line on attendance and
fines.
Parents just want the option tohave other options, but
sometimes it feels like theymake that harder
Louise Rogers (28:43):
for
Eliza Fricker (28:43):
parents to access or they, there is always the
threat that they might make itharder for parents to access.
Leisa Reichelt (28:50):
Let's finish by talking about how your
daughter's doing now, Eliza, inthis new educational environment
you said she's nearly 18 now,looking to the future, how are
things feeling and how are youtwo thinking about, what the
future's gonna hold?
Eliza Fricker (29:07):
she's doing good.
She's got herself a littlepart-time job.
She's, you know, out and about.
You know, she's doing stuff, Isuppose, that still takes
enormous amount of scaffoldingto do that for her at times.
You know, it's, it's in and out,isn't it, with the scaffolding.
I suppose it's, we'recomfortable with that sort of
(29:27):
uncertainty now.
We're in that sort of intenseperiod where we have.
We've, we did GCSEs and we haveA Levels, and then kids go to
university.
It's very intensive.
I don't know what she's gonnado, she doesn't know what she's
gonna do, but uncertainty is OKnow.
I can sit with that a lot morethan I would've previously.
(29:48):
I don't have that sadness orsorrow around missed
opportunities anymore.
We are just doing itdifferently, but the rewards are
there.
Having a child who is well, islucid in conversation and able
to communicate.
Those are the bits that mattermuch more than all the other
bits.
We were joking before we cameon.
(30:10):
Hitting midlife, my friends areall going through not knowing
what they wanna do and did theygo on the right path through
their own life.
So, you know, I thinkuncertainty is there through
life, it's really about gettingto a place where we can sit with
that and be okay with that, themost important thing is having a
child who is well and happy.
(30:31):
When When we've had childrenthat you don't know if they're
gonna make it.
That's what we want most, just awell and happy child.
Leisa Reichelt (30:41):
Yeah,
Louise Rogers (30:44):
Yep.
Leisa Reichelt (30:44):
Eliza, if you had a time machine and you could
go back in time and tap yourselfon the shoulder and give
yourself a little bit ofknowledge that you didn't have,
when do you reckon you'd go backto and what do you reckon you'd
tell yourself?
Eliza Fricker (30:57):
I'd probably go back to just before nursery and
not have done it.
So, you know, be, what is it,what have you got, Byron Bay,
where you
Leisa Reichelt (31:04):
I.
Eliza Fricker (31:04):
Well, I'm in Brighton, so I'd embrace the
Byron Bay or Brighton of Englandand, you know, not have done it.
Probably.
I'd just love to have known thatall this stuff that's out there
now, I had a family, that Ispoke to last week and their
child was just about to startschool
Louise Rogers (31:20):
Okay.
Eliza Fricker (31:20):
they said, we're not gonna do it.
We just know it's not for them.
And I thought, wow, becausethey've got all this knowledge
out there, they can make thatinformed decision.
It's not saying they won't evergo or they won't go somewhere,
but how wonderful to be able tomake an informed decision like
that.
Leisa Reichelt (31:35):
And I know you have a million different
resources to choose from, butwhat would be like a resource or
two that you would say.
Start here.
Eliza Fricker (31:43):
I suppose probably just those webinars
that Naomi Fisher and I havedone, which you can watch them
when you've got time to, andhopefully it just, it just gives
you some options.
'cause I think that's what weneed.
I'd never say school isn't foreveryone.
Even my daughter she will talknow quite fondly about elements
of school.
These things are complex andmulti-layered.
(32:03):
It's never simple.
Hopefully you'll find thingsthat resonate for you and make
you feel a little bit supportedwith making some decisions that
work for you.
So, I'm just looking at mybookcase of all my books on
there.
Pam Leo's book's really lovely.
The Connection Parenting, that'sa lovely book.
Anything that's about parentingfirst and foremost, I think over
(32:28):
the kind of learning element,you know, that's the most
important thing to keep yourinstincts because you know your
child best.
No one else knows your childbest.
Louise Rogers (32:37):
I think your Missing The Mark page has been
very impactful for so manyparents here in Australia.
There is so much of it thatwe've shared amongst each other,
we've discussed amongst eachother, and, it's really helped
us all process what we've beenexperiencing.
Thank you for that.
(32:58):
Because I think it's made a bigdifference to our parent
community to have that resource.
Thank you.
Eliza Fricker (33:06):
Well, I'm not saying it as well as Bell Hooks
would've articulated it, but wecan't heal in isolation.
We need community, you know, weneed these connections and it's
so important because thatremoves that shame around this
and that isolation.
We need those connections.
Leisa Reichelt (33:23):
That's great.
Alright then let's wrap it up.
Thank you so much, Eliza, forjoining us.
Really, really appreciate yourtime.
Eliza Fricker (33:29):
thank you.
Louise Rogers (33:31):
Thank you.
Leisa Reichelt (33:32):
What a delight to speak with Eliza today, and I
really hope there was somethingin this conversation that
resonated for you.
If you want more from Eliza,we've put links to her books,
social media, webinars, all thegood stuff in the episode notes.
And if you found this podcasthelpful, please do take a moment
to share or subscribe.
Maybe even give us a rating or areview on Spotify or Apple
(33:52):
Podcasts.
This really does make a hugedifference in helping us get the
podcast into the hands of peoplewho have School Can't kids, and
have not yet found our communityand all the information that we
share.
And if you've been inspired byEliza to share your own School
Can't Lived Experience with ourcommunity, please drop me an
email toschoolcantpodcast@gmail.com.
It is a very relaxed process torecord an episode.
(34:14):
Anyone can do it, and I wouldlove to hear from you.
If you are a parent or carer inAustralia and you are feeling
distressed, please remember youcan always call the Parent
Helpline in your state.
A link with the number to callis in the episode notes.
Thanks again for listening, andwe will talk again soon.
Take care.
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