August 18, 2025 • 41 mins
In this episode, you’ll meet Diana, a mother of two young people with School Can’t experiences. Diana joins host Leisa Reichelt to candidly share her experiences supporting her son James through his struggles with mainstream schooling.
From early signs like separation anxiety and hating birthday parties and swimming lessons, to the challenges of advocating for access to Distance Education including supports for undertaking the Higher School Certificate (HSC).
Diana’s story includes topics like deschooling, misdiagnosis, and the importance of tailored support.
Content warning: This episode briefly mentions a suicide threat. Please take care when listening.
00:00 Introduction to the School Can't Experience Podcast
00:29 Meet Diana: A School Can't Mum
02:12 Early Signs and Challenges
08:03 The High School Struggle
17:29 Navigating Distance Education
19:46 Coping Strategies and Support
24:59 James' Journey to University
37:31 Reflections and Advice
40:30 Closing Remarks and Resources
Recommended Resources
- Uniting Youth Enhanced Support Service (YESS): Northern Sydney - https://www.uniting.org/services/mental-health/facility/yess-youth-enhanced-support-service-yess-northern-sydney-northern-beaches
- Growing Yourself Up by Jennie Brown (Book) - https://www.amazon.com.au/Growing-Yourself-Up-bring-relationships/dp/1925335194
- Understanding Deschooling with Pavlina McMaster and Heidi Ryan (Podcast Episode) - https://www.buzzsprout.com/2447546/episodes/17100428
- School Can’t Australia Facebook Community - https://www.facebook.com/groups/schoolphobiaschoolrefusalaustralia
- Make a donation to School Can’t Australia - https://www.schoolcantaustralia.com.au/get-involved
If you are a parent of carer in Australia and experiencing distress, please call Lifeline on 13 11 14 or contact the Parent Help Line. - https://kidshelpline.com.au/parents/issues/how-parentline-can-help-you
You can contact us to volunteer to share your School Can't story or some feedback via email on schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com
Disclaimer
The content of this podcast is based on personal lived experiences and is shared for informational and storytelling purposes only. It should not be treated as medical, psychological, or professional advice under any circumstances. If you have concerns about your health or well-being, please seek guidance from a doctor, therapist, or other qualified professional.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leisa Reichelt (00:05):
Hello and welcome to the School Can't
Experience Podcast.
I'm Leisa Reichelt and thispodcast is brought to you by the
School Can't Australiacommunity.
Caring for a young person who isstruggling to attend school can
be a stressful and isolatingexperience, but you are not
alone.
Thousands of parents acrossAustralia and many more around
the world face similarchallenges and experiences every
(00:27):
day.
Today we are joined by Diana,who is a School Can't mum of two
young people, both of whom havehad challenges with mainstream
school.
Diana is based on the northernbeaches of Sydney in Australia,
and in this episode, Diana verycandidly shares her experience
of supporting her son Jamesthrough his School Can't
(00:48):
experience.
A quick content warning.
This episode does make a briefmention of a suicide threat, so
please do take care whenlistening.
I hope you enjoy Diana's story.
Thank you so much, Diana, forjoining us and agreeing to be on
our podcast today.
Diana Keyes (01:04):
My pleasure.
Leisa Reichelt (01:05):
What can you tell us about yourself, your
family?
what's going on for you?
Diana Keyes (01:11):
Wow.
That's, where to start.
no, look, I suppose in some waysyou'd say we're probably a
fairly normal actually, what isnormal?
My husband and I, we've beenmarried for a long time.
We have two kids.
We have our older daughter,Bella, who's 23, who, in
hindsight had her own SchoolCan't journey, although we
(01:33):
probably called it truancy atthe time.
That's a very long andinteresting story, probably
another podcast.
And then we have our gorgeousJames, who's now 19.
I would say we are a group ofshy introverts.
I just thought that was us.
(01:54):
In hindsight, I think we allhave a neurodiversity.
You know, one or more, that hasmade our lives, perhaps more
challenging than for normalfamilies.
Sorry, I keep using that word.
Leisa Reichelt (02:06):
Yeah.
Diana Keyes (02:07):
that's us.
we're all good.
but there's been a lot ofchallenges along the way.
Leisa Reichelt (02:12):
And so today we're going to focus on your
son's journey.
Diana Keyes (02:16):
Yes.
Yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (02:19):
I know this is always different in retrospect
'cause you learn so much alongthe way, if you were going to
look back to the earliest signsof the journey that was to come,
where do you think it allstarts?
Diana Keyes (02:33):
In hindsight with everything I've learned, I would
look back at his separationanxiety as being the first
indicator of the challenges tocome.
At the time, I thought he wasshy and introverted and a
homebody, and that was okay.
(02:55):
In fact, you know, us introvertshave to spend quite a lot of
time defending ourselves.
But it certainly became a realchallenge, and I think, when the
penny sort of dropped was he wasin preschool and I was doing
like a little tiny tots socceractivity with him.
(03:15):
And I remember all the boys usedto like put up their hand when
the teacher would say, who wantsto do the throw in of the soccer
ball?
And James looked like he justwanted the ground to swallow him
up.
And I remember thinking he wasenrolled to go to our local
public, and the intake that yearwas going to be 10 kindy
(03:36):
classes.
So yeah, that's what, that's 200kindy kids.
My daughter was already at thatschool.
She was really struggling.
We had decided for her that wewere going to transition her to
the local Catholic, which wasjust one class per year.
And so we sort of made this lastminute, like he will just
(04:01):
crumble in a cohort of 200.
That was quite a big decision,because we're not Catholic.
And yeah, he cried and fellapart every single morning of
his kinder year.
He had to be peeled off me, andthat was a pretty traumatic
(04:21):
first year.
So, again, I thought it wassimply social anxiety.
So did everybody else.
And then thankfully going backwith the same cohort between
year one and then until thebeginning of year six, it was
all pretty plain sailing and Ithought we were sort of out of
(04:45):
the woods.
Again, if I look back, therewere further indicators.
He just wanted to play with thesame friend every weekend, who
by the way, got diagnosed asbeing on the autism spectrum
later.
So taking him to birthdayparties was always a bit of a
(05:06):
nightmare.
What else?
Other things that he justoutright refused to do.
Swimming lessons.
For example, living on theNorthern Beaches, everyone's
supposed to do things likeswimming and nippers and, you
know, it was just a solid wallthat we couldn't get past.
If I fast forward to the factthat we did end up with an
(05:27):
autism diagnosis, theneuropsychologist said to me,
actually you created quite aautism friendly environment for
your son inadvertently, probablybecause that is how you liked to
live too.
Leisa Reichelt (05:43):
I think it is a really common thing isn't it?
Like when we see our kidsstruggling with different things
and then you, you insideyourself go, I totally
understand.
I wouldn't really want to go toa birthday party this weekend
either.
Diana Keyes (05:55):
Exactly.
And again, the screaming andwhat seems like, I think there's
this innate seriousnesssometimes and things that people
find fun and we're like, that'sjust silly.
So in hindsight, those were allsigns of what was to come.
Leisa Reichelt (06:18):
How old was your son when he got the autism
diagnosis?
Diana Keyes (06:22):
he was in year 10, so he was almost 16.
It came late because I, I don'tthink we went to the right
professionals to do theassessment.
That is a real learning that Ihave, if you have any sense that
might be the right thing foryour child, your local
(06:45):
psychologist or psychiatrist,unless they absolutely
specialise in it and do theright testing, they're not the
right people to make theassessment.
So yes, year 10.
Leisa Reichelt (06:54):
Lots of kids who do get picked up earlier.
That comes about often becauseteachers mention something from
the school experience whenthey're really young, but that
didn't happen?
Diana Keyes (07:05):
It didn't happen.
I think that's the thing withJames, other than his social
anxiety, he didn't present in away that made teachers think
things.
He was always quite popular.
Kids liked him.
he was not socially isolated andI think he was just, you know,
cooperative, kept his head down.
(07:26):
Obviously didn't do have sort ofrepetitive patterns that maybe
showed up.
To be honest, it wasn't until Ifound my way to the School Can't
community and learnt about PDA,that I was the one that goes,
this is James, I need to pursuethis.
And even then it's like.
Of course all you get inAustralia is, well, PDA is not a
(07:48):
thing.
It's like, okay, maybe it's nota thing, but it's a good way of
describing a collection ofautism behaviours and how they
show up every day.
So yeah,
Leisa Reichelt (08:03):
Let's talk about the school experience and when
the wheels started to fall off.
So we went through primaryschool relatively smoothly, and
then came high school.
Diana Keyes (08:14):
Exactly, we decided just to follow his cohort
because they were a lovely groupof boys to the local Catholic
boys school.
Big mistake.
I think for boys on the autismspectrum and with PDA, I
remember him going on the firstday.
(08:35):
I remember him coming home andsaying, I don't wanna go back
again.
Somehow we managed to getthrough that year, in year seven
they tend to keep a classtogether and the class moves
round together.
But I definitely think, youknow, his attendance probably
did start to slip in year seven,but not to the point where I was
(08:57):
getting calls from the school.
I think he was still in the bandof'normalness' when you don't
end up with those calls everyday.
So got through year seven, yeareight.
I think that's when you wentinto the different classes,
moving between periods, etcetera.
It was also a very blokey schoolwhere it was quite normal for
(09:20):
the older kids to be a bit roughwith the younger kids.
A lot of the older, moreautocratic style teaching
methods were really justshutting James down again.
They had very academicallyrigorous, and not that James
wasn't intelligent, but the wayin which that autocratic style
(09:42):
and calling on people in classand the old styles of shame, did
not suit him.
So in some ways, I think whenthose school shutdowns were
called in about March, was alittle bit of a lifesaver or a
bit of a circuit breaker.
'Cause I think it maybe broughtus another three months or
something.
He refused to participate in anyonline classes.
(10:05):
I just could not get him to,again, I think the school were a
little bit like, okay, it's areally strange time for
everyone.
But then when the schoolreopened we really, really,
really struggled to get himback.
I think that's because, youknow, with social anxiety, it's
the exposure therapy, it's thegoing every day or trying to go
(10:28):
every day.
And then once you have that longbreak, I think for James it was
just a mountain he reallystruggled to climb.
And then that's when the schoolcame in pretty heavy handed with
a behavioural program.
They would check in every singleday.
(10:48):
What were we doing?
What was he eating?
What was his sleep routineslike?
And of course, at this point hewas deep into gaming.
And so getting him to bed was anightmare.
Leisa Reichelt (11:00):
But the assumption from the beginning
was it was something you weredoing at home that was causing
the problem.
Diana Keyes (11:05):
So it was all parental based.
Your parenting style, you arenot enough discipline and that's
what it was absolutely allabout.
You are not disciplining him.
You are not controlling, youknow, you are not doing the
right things as parents.
yeah, very much.
So then we, trying to do theright thing, and because we had
(11:29):
had an experience with ourdaughter where she was sort of,
again, I would say School Can't,but we thought it was truancy.
And again, we thought it was,and then you start to think,
well, this is my second child.
It has to be me.
We have to be doing somethingwrong.
And look, I was never a, youmust sit there until you finish
your dinner type parent.
Because I always thought, thechild knew when they were full.
(11:50):
So I suppose you would say I wasa fairly relaxed parent, and
then there's all this selfdoubt.
We got to the point where, wehad probably started to find
psychologists to help.
This is where the whole, youneed to make home really
uncomfortable for them came in.
(12:12):
And so we tried to make homereally uncomfortable.
We said to James, if you don'tgo to school, you have to leave
the house for the day.
You can't be in the house.
You can't have the comfort ofthe house.
Leisa Reichelt (12:24):
And the school and the psychologists were okay
with that.
Diana Keyes (12:26):
think they really knew, if I'm honest, because
this is the whole thing, whenthey go the home really
uncomfortable, it's like, whatdo you mean by that?
And they don't really know whatthey mean.
Well, do you just offer what?
not, nothing to eat, but Isuppose you make them their
school lunch and you put thatout and there's nothing else.
(12:47):
How do you control that whenyour two parents who are working
and out of the house?
Well, I suppose you get to thepoint where you switch the modem
off and you carry it to workwith you.
Highly impractical.
But these are all the thingsyou're forced into.
And then, you know, many of ushave also experienced some of
the violence that comes withthat.
When, with boys, I'm taking themodem and switching it off and
(13:11):
taking it to bed with me.
Then parents end up having tocall the police because there
can be violence as a result.
I feel like when professionalssay make the home uncomfortable,
they don't know what they'resaying.
And, and, and look, maybe thereare examples of some people
saying, yes, I did do that andit worked But we, I feel like,
(13:33):
took it to the extreme and wethen ended up with James
basically making a suicidethreat because he felt so
cornered by us that he, he feltlike he had no way out.
And I think we feel very ashamedabout that and very, yeah, that
(14:00):
was really, really hard.
And we ended up at the localhospital in the emergency ward.
And is he going to go into themental health facility with all
the, the time, very, very unwellpeople.
And I just remember sittingthere with James and I just
said, let's just get the heckoutta here.
And we just discharged him andgot home and I just thought, I'm
(14:25):
going to drive my son to asuicide attempt.
And needless to say, my husbandand I were not coping at all,
and we see that all the time onthe School Can't Facebook page,
people are literally at the endof their tethers because you're
trying to satisfy the school,and keep up with society, I
(14:46):
suppose.
So I think we just let yeareight peter out.
Kept in touch with school and atthis point in time we started,
trying to find psychologists whocould help us with School
Refusal.
And again, all the answers werejust teach him how to breathe
(15:08):
deeply and blow into a tissue ifhe's feeling anxious.
And you know, look, they wereall very well meaning, but we
just never found our way toanyone that was really helpful.
Year nine.
We're like, okay, give thisanother go.
He went to school on the firstday of year nine, second day of
(15:30):
year nine he's like, I can't getoutta bed.
Now, keep in mind, we paid ahuge amount of school fees in
year eight for him not toattend,
Leisa Reichelt (15:40):
And for them to give you all of that advice.
Diana Keyes (15:42):
Yes, push the family to the limit.
One thing I would say is theschool tried.
But because of that schoolenvironment, sometimes they
would say to James, look, youcan just do two periods and then
go home.
When James was walking to theoffice to be picked up by me,
some school teacher would comeup to him and challenge him and
(16:04):
say, where are you going youngman?
Why are you walking in the wrongdirection?
You cannot change a whole schoolenvironment, even if you get
pockets of understanding.
It was that kind of schoolenvironment.
Leisa Reichelt (16:19):
Still remains a threatening place.
Diana Keyes (16:21):
a threatening place, and it was like, your
socks have slipped halfway downyour legs, young man, you know?
So it was, for goodness sake,you don't know.
I've just been through hell andback for the last two hours to
get him there.
I get him through the door andhe is attacked.
My daughter's experience whenshe would occasionally get to
(16:42):
school is sometimes the teacherswould say, oh, class, why don't
we clap Bella
Leisa Reichelt (16:48):
oh
Diana Keyes (16:48):
for turning up?
Leisa Reichelt (16:51):
no.
Diana Keyes (16:51):
You are like, this is, and, you've been through
hell and back to get them there.
Leisa Reichelt (16:55):
How humiliating.
Diana Keyes (16:57):
so humiliating.
So look, there's so much thatstill needs to be changed in our
schools.
So I guess we worked out wecan't change the school.
And James is just suffering andwe are suffering.
So I rang the school.
I'm like, okay, we're giving younotice to unenroll.
Normally it's a terms notice.
They were thrilled for us to begone and off their books,
(17:21):
because we were ruining theirattendance
Leisa Reichelt (17:24):
statistics and yeah,
Diana Keyes (17:27):
off you go.
So then we started the DistanceEd application process.
Now you cannot apply to DistanceEd from a private school.
That's a, a nice little tidbit.
Leisa Reichelt (17:43):
this is in New South Wales.
Diana Keyes (17:44):
South Wales.
Yes.
So we had to go cap and hand toour local public boys school who
didn't really wanna know aboutus.
This is where parental advocateis, you just have to be, you
know, your child's advocate andyou, and I'm like, I don't care.
We live an area.
You have to enroll us.
And then now you have to gothrough this process.
(18:05):
I'm sorry, school counselor, ifyou don't know us and you don't
know James, but you have to dothis big application.
We gave them all the reports wehad from the private school and
look, they did it, but I was onthem every second day.
I did end up calling theDepartment of Education.
I called Distance Ed, and said,look, we're going through this
(18:27):
process once they know you'regoing through the process, they
did actually send us some papermaterials, which was really
kind.
Leisa Reichelt (18:36):
Diana, I assume you had plenty of time on your
hands to do all of this advocacywork, and you weren't working a
big job or anything like that.
Diana Keyes (18:44):
Okay.
No.
So I was working full time in avery, very full on job.
I worked for multinational whowas going through one of the
latest round of globalrestructures and redundancy.
I think by this point I wasreporting offshore you know, so
I couldn't really talk about itwith anybody.
Leisa Reichelt (19:06):
How on earth did you manage to cope with
supporting James and everythingthat he's been through and
having your whole approach toparenting challenged and all of
that, and manage your job?
Diana Keyes (19:22):
Yeah, I don't know.
I, I think it's sort of like, ifyou're bush walking and you're
10 Ks in and you break your leg,somehow you manage to drag
yourself out and afterwards yougo, I don't know how I did that.
Because you have no choice.
I'm not saying I didn't havemeltdowns along the way.
I absolutely had meltdowns atwork and at home, I didn't feel
(19:44):
like I could talk about it withanybody.
How I managed was finding my wayto that School Can't Facebook
group.
Someone mentioned it to me somepoint, and then it's like, oh my
goodness, I am not alone.
I am not a terrible person.
There's a whole lot of goodpeople going through this
(20:04):
experience.
We just gotta keep going throughit.
I I have to survive and I lovemy son and we are just going to
get through this.
Leisa Reichelt (20:13):
Yeah.
So you're in the midst of allthe paperwork and administration
of trying to get James into DE.
Diana Keyes (20:19):
Yes, that's where I learned about this concept of
Deschooling Or just letting himbe.
And that, for parents it's likeletting go in a really scary way
because it's the absoluteopposite of everything you are
being told and everything thatthe school is telling you.
(20:41):
So he got accepted into DE andthen, like so many parents from
the School Can't Facebook page.
He sat down in front of thecomputer and he said, I can't do
this.
And that's when you feel likeyou've lost touch with reality
and you're just literally out ofideas.
Leisa Reichelt (21:00):
Especially after all that effort to make it
happen.
Diana Keyes (21:04):
And I think, thankfully I was learning about
this concept of deschooling, andI also knew through my
daughter's experience that yearnine is a little bit of a
nothing year.
It's like, it's not year 10where there's sort of some
mandatory requirements and Ijust thought if he logs on every
(21:24):
now and then and does a tinybit, that will be enough for us
to get through that year.
I mean, I feel like he didn'tleave his room for a lot of year
nine.
What I call year nine, you know,age 14,15, and again, I think so
many people have been throughthat or are going through that.
That is the biggest thing, whenI get on the School Can't
(21:45):
Facebook group I see thosedesperate parents and they go,
my son or daughter is 14, 15 andthey don't leave their room.
And I, chime in and go.
if they're safe in their room,then maybe that's okay, and
maybe that's just what they needto do.
Because you think about hard ithas been.
Like in reality, James would'vebeen masking the whole way
(22:07):
through primary, and he just hadtwo horrendous year seven and
eight years where he was justlike a shell of himself.
And I know that he was so fullof shame and he was so upset
with himself.
'Cause he would cry and he wouldsay, why can't I do what
everybody else is doing?
And of course we didn't have thediagnosis.
(22:28):
In the end, the psychiatristsand psychologists recommended
the same program.
It was through Uniting, it wascalled YESS.
Youth Enhanced Support Servicesand they're like, look, we think
they're running a really goodprogram that might suit you
guys.
So we found our way there andthey started advocating also,
just leave him, just let him be,just take the pressure off and,
(22:53):
it was sort of coming via thisconcept of Deschooling and it
was coming via them.
Leisa Reichelt (23:00):
What a relief to hear that from somebody in an
authority position.
Diana Keyes (23:04):
It was, it, it really was.
I was looking back on my noteswith them though.
I suggested autism and they werelike, no, no, no.
They started suggesting thingslike Cluster B Personality Type,
which is like the whole BPD,bipolar, schizophrenia, or
severe depression.
I look back on my notes now andgo no, that doesn't feel right.
(23:27):
But course we were treating itlike severe depression.
So that's the other thing.
You look back and you go, wewere trying to heavily medicate
James.
And for some kids that'shelpful.
I don't ever think it was forJames.
Leisa Reichelt (23:42):
The other thing with depression too is it's
always like get outside and dothings and engage with the world
and that's how you help withdepression.
And I'm sure it does help a lotwith depression, but it adds all
the pressure onto the kids andfor you to get them out as well,
doesn't it?
Diana Keyes (23:56):
exactly.
When I think about year nine, orthat probably 15-year-old, we
decided we're just going to lethim be because our family is not
going to survive otherwise.
And he started to do somereally, really simple things,
which was he started to gogrocery shopping with my husband
(24:17):
once a week with his hoodie on.
He would go three suburbs awaywe'd take him to a Coles and
we'd just say, put whatever youwant in the trolley.
You know, anything to just gethim out of the house.
So that was once a week.
And then the other thing myhusband was doing, like
volunteer work, food delivery,and we said to James, Hey, you
(24:40):
know, we'll give you$50 if yougo on this food delivery with
Stewart.
It wasn't confronting for Jamesbecause he was just in and outta
the car with his dad anddropping food on the, on the
footsteps.
So that was kind of for him alittle bit of a dipping his toe
back into the world.
Okay.
So then I think by year 10,that's when we were like, you
(25:03):
know, if you want to putyourself in a position to maybe
do year 11 and 12, and the onlyreason, like we are not, those
sorts of parents are like, youmust go to university.
You must do year 11 and 12.
I had always been happy, youknow, if you wanna go to TAFE,
if you wanna get a job, But justknowing James, he's a smart boy
(25:25):
and I think the sorts of jobsthat would suit him would
probably require a unieducation.
So we just didn't wanna sort ofnot keep that option open.
And I think that's where wethought, okay, year 10, he will
have to hand in some work.
And we probably then decided asa family that it was going to be
(25:47):
a little bit of a group effort.
So I would sit with James andwork through the curriculum with
him.
Now I'm working full time.
And again, what I would say tosome parents is if they get an
hour and a half of qualitylearning a day, then that's
(26:10):
probably more than they wereever getting in face-to-face
school anyway.
So I think sometimes we set thebar so high, we're like, I can't
Distance Ed my kid, or I can'thomeschool them I'm like, well,
you probably got an hour in theevening that you can find, or
again, with this hybrid working,I was working from home two days
a week.
(26:30):
So if my lunch break was spentwith James, then it was spent
with James.
And again, we feel a lot ofguilt.
should we be helping our child?
Well, I had to know that he wastaking the information in
because he's gotta do writtenexams.
We did help scaffold thelearning, I suppose is one way
to say it.
(26:53):
And this is probably around thetime when we finally said, let's
go to a proper neuropsychologistwho does the autism assessment.
She was like, yes, he's a ASD2.
And it's like, you know, at thispoint he's almost 16 and
everyone I've ever asked islike, no.
Leisa Reichelt (27:14):
All of those opinions are mostly from having
a talk to him and
Diana Keyes (27:17):
Absolutely.
Leisa Reichelt (27:18):
he is masking his face off.
Diana Keyes (27:21):
And it's also some of the things like, okay, some
presentations I think are quitesort of classic and then other
presentations are not.
I think the speech for him isjust like, he's quite well
spoken, but it was our daughterwho said he's a teenage boy on
(27:42):
the Northern Beaches.
He should not soundquasi-English you know?
Leisa Reichelt (27:49):
Speaks like a middle-aged man.
Yeah.
Diana Keyes (27:51):
Exactly.
Any sort of, sensitivity totexture or food, he never really
had that.
But I think he's got sensitivityto sound and noise, but that
didn't present particularlyobviously.
He was always really upset withthe high school bus that was
really crowded and jam packed.
Now I would think that was anoversensitivity to that
(28:14):
stimulation.
Leisa Reichelt (28:16):
I think with high masking autistic people as
well, they internalize thosesensory sensitivities so much
that they just think, and I, youknow, including myself in this,
honestly, you think everyone'sexperiencing it the same way,
right?
And so you're just like, well, Ijust need to like suck it up and
(28:36):
deal.
So you get to the point whereyou're like, I don't have any
sensory sensitivities.
I just don't understand whyanybody else isn't wearing their
sunglasses today.
Diana Keyes (28:46):
Yeah, Exactly.
At all my crazy work events thatgo on to three in the morning,
and I'm like, can I politelyexit at 9:00 without ruffling
any feathers?
You know?
And, again, I would have justput that down to just being an
introvert.
But now I think, I'm strugglingwith the overstimulation.
(29:07):
Also, I've learned so much aboutautism with the whole, how it
actually presents in your body.
Like James has, you know, hisposture is not ideal and I've
learned about, I'm not going tosay it right, but the prop
system or, so that's the wholewhere, the perception of
distance and that sort of thing.
Leisa Reichelt (29:30):
I am thinking proprioception.
Diana Keyes (29:32):
Yes.
There we are.
Thank you.
Again, it's like lack ofcoordination.
He was quite sporty, so thatdidn't come out, but he's very
slowly learning to drive becauseI think he cannot maybe screen
out lot of the things that, kidswho are super confident and
like, I can't see that cararound me.
(29:53):
I think he can see everything,it's been such an interesting
journey.
Leisa Reichelt (29:56):
So he got through year 10 with the team
support.
Diana Keyes (30:00):
Yes.
Then again, I suppose that's howwe approached year 11 and 12
too.
Now, Distance Ed said to us, ifhe's not doing maths, he should
not do ATAR.
And I just thought to myself,I'm a lawyer.
I know lots of lawyers thatcannot add up numbers.
(30:20):
I do not think not doing mathshould exclude you from an ATAR.
I think that's a really weirdthinking that's got into the
school system.
Leisa Reichelt (30:28):
Hmm.
Diana Keyes (30:29):
So no, he didn't do maths.
only because he just missed somuch of it.
And I think so many subjects, itdoesn't matter if you've missed
the building blocks, but I thinkwith maths it builds on itself.
That was a learning gap that wasjust too hard to make up if I'm
perfectly honest.
Whereas with a lot ofhumanities, you just sort of
(30:50):
pick them up and go with it.
We made it through year 11 and12 together, as I think many
neurotypical kids inface-to-face school do.
Whether it's coaching orparental assistance, sometimes
people just need help.
Leisa Reichelt (31:11):
What does doing your HSC look like if you're
doing Distance Education as aASD2 individual.
Diana Keyes (31:18):
Yeah.
Well that was interestingbecause we got a bit of a shock
when they're like, oh, he'lljust have to go along to his
local high school that he'snever set foot in and sit his
HSC amongst all these kids.
And we were like, oh, wow.
I don't know if he'll be able tomanage that.
(31:39):
So we said, well, whatalternatives are there?
And look, there, there is lotsand lots of support, including
he could have sat the HSC athome and he could have had
someone from the Department ofEducation come into our home and
observe him.
I think that's really good.
I don't know why that's not morewidely known.
(31:59):
In the end, James actually didgo to his local high school and
sit
Leisa Reichelt (32:04):
Wow.
Diana Keyes (32:05):
all of those exams We just take our hat off.
We didn't know every morningwhether he would be able to do
that.
And of course if he hadn't beenable to do that, we would've
been able to do the misadventureform if we'd been able to get to
your doctor on that day.
That didn't end up beingnecessary, but I think it's
really good for people to knowthat.
There's writing support, there'sadditional time.
(32:27):
But there is this thing wherethey can actually sit their HSC
at home.
This is in New South Wales.
I can't speak for the otherstates.
Leisa Reichelt (32:37):
Yes, but New South Wales not renowned for its
support of kids who arestruggling at school.
Diana Keyes (32:42):
Absolutely.
And look, what I would say aboutDistance Education is it's just
school, but remotely.
And some of the teachers, theycouldn't care less if James had
autism, all they say is, oh, youcan do your HSC half time, like,
spend two years on half thesubjects and another two years
on another half of the subjects.
That seems to be all that's onoffer.
(33:04):
And I said, well, that's justdeath by a thousand cuts.
I'm sorry.
We're not doing that.
Because at Distance Ed, some ofthe kids are actually brilliant
and performing in musicals everynight or they're on the
professional tennis circuit.
It is not super well set upother than the fact that you are
doing it remotely.
(33:24):
But again, I was, fairly notfierce advocate, but I stood my
ground where I felt like therehas to be a disability
discrimination claim against theDepartment of Education because
it's like, how is it possiblethat these kids are not given
any support.
Leisa Reichelt (33:42):
So where are we today?
He managed to get through theHSC.
How are things going now?
Diana Keyes (33:47):
Yeah, look pretty good.
He got a low ATAR, as we knew hewould get because the scaling
with Distance Ed and thesubjects he had chosen.
But with his autism diagnosis,with Distance Ed, you get a few
extra marks and he applied to auni that's considered sort of in
area.
So with those concessions, and Ijust think because universities
(34:10):
have discretion, he got into hiscourse of choice for the first
round offer.
So think we are all killingourselves trying to get our kids
a ATAR of 75 or 80 or whatever.
Well, I can say you can get touni with an ATAR of a lot less
than that.
Leisa Reichelt (34:31):
That's very good to know.
Diana Keyes (34:32):
yes, absolutely.
Now where he is today, he is atface-to-face uni.
Thankfully a lot of it can bedone online.
We said to him, just do twosubjects per semester, and he
got through last semester.
It's not to say he finds iteasy, but he has found it
(34:54):
manageable.
This semester, which we're onlytwo weeks in, and we said, try
three subjects.
Now on Thursday, I said you'regoing in.
I know you've got a big day.
And he was just like, we wereback in year eight again.
He's like, I can't, I just,can't, I can't.
My husband and I like, literallylike, you know, you know what
it's like, like the, your, yourheart sinks and you're like, no,
(35:17):
no, we can't go back to thisagain, but we had a really good
conversation with him and said,just go to two subjects.
Or, or one.
Let's help find a way to go toDisability Services.
Because what the trigger hasbeen is in the tutorials, the
lecturers call on the students,and that for him is a fate worse
(35:40):
than death.
So I've said you can actuallyfind a way to make it known to
the lecturers that you are onthe autism spectrum, and that
for you, you cannot be called onin class.
And this is where the world hasmoved on because that would've
been seen like a disciplinething in high school.
(36:02):
Whereas now I'm hoping they willput some supports in place to
make it possible for him to feelsafe.
So look, we're in a good place.
But it's also understanding thatthis is a lifelong journey.
we are so focused on SchoolCan't, but then sometimes, you
know, you'll hear parents say,well, we've now gone into Life
(36:22):
Can't.
So that's a little bit scarytoo.
Now we are not in Life Can't,but we are also in life has to
look different for this youngman.
And we need to support him indifferent ways he is going to
need support.
But we are confident thattogether with the right support
(36:45):
and with everything that we'velearned, he is going to have a
good life.
Leisa Reichelt (36:53):
I'm sure he has learned a lot along this journey
as well.
Diana Keyes (36:57):
Yeah, he, he absolutely has.
And I think, you know, when hegot his diagnosis, we said to
him, we're so sorry, James,we're so sorry that we haven't
understood.
The way you've been treatedhasn't been right for you.
You know, we said to him, you,you can let go of all that shame
(37:18):
that you were carrying around.
And that was really, reallyhealing.
And it's healing for parentstoo.
Leisa Reichelt (37:25):
Diana, let's move on to our closing
questions.
If you could go back in time andsay something to yourself, when
do you think you would go backto, and what do you think you'd
say?
Diana Keyes (37:38):
I'd go back to before my kids started school,
and I think this is the hardthing for working parents.
You don't get to observe yourchildren enough sometimes in
social settings.
So you don't see, hey, they area little bit different.
But I think if I could go back,I would say be really thoughtful
(38:01):
about the school that youchoose.
Don't just rock on up to thelocal public and think it's all
going to be fine.
I would've chose a really littleK to 12 school if I could have,
in hindsight.
But also don't try and keep upwith everybody.
You've just gotta live your ownlife.
That's really what it's allabout.
(38:21):
And just look at your child andyou and just adjust to their
needs and not keep the world atlarge happy.
'cause that's an impossibletask.
Leisa Reichelt (38:33):
And if you could say one thing to everybody who's
listening, who's on their ownSchool Can't journey at the
moment, what would you like themto hear?
Diana Keyes (38:43):
Well, first of all, I would like to acknowledge how
tough the journey is and howisolating it is.
It's like nothing else I've everexperienced.
It is a very tough journey.
I would also like to say thateducation based trauma is real.
(39:05):
Sometimes when our kids don't goto school, it's for their own
preservation that they're tryingto protect themselves.
And I think there is an art inknowing when to go enough is
enough and, it's okay to sayenough is enough.
And I'm going to dohomeschooling.
(39:26):
You know what's enough for youand your child and nobody else
knows that.
Leisa Reichelt (39:31):
You mentioned a couple of really useful
resources but if you were goingto pick out one that was
particularly helpful to you,what would you recommend to
people as a School Can'tresource.
Diana Keyes (39:42):
I did find that book, Growing Yourself Up by
Jennie Brown, really helpfulbecause it does, I think
sometimes we do have to do a lotof work on ourselves to
emotionally regulate and lookafter ourselves.
I realized that I was making alot of decisions when I was in
that fight or flight stage.Andso, just learning about how you
(40:05):
calm down your amygdala and thenyou, you, you're making
decisions with the hippocampusor whatever it's called.
So I, I would say if there's anygood books that you can read on
on your own self-regulation tohelp yourself with this journey.
That would be good too.
Leisa Reichelt (40:21):
Well, Diana, thank you so much for sharing
the story that your family hasbeen through.
Really, really appreciate it.
Diana Keyes (40:29):
Thanks so much.
Leisa Reichelt (40:30):
So many thanks to Diana again for sharing her
story.
There were so many nuggets ofinsight in there, and I hope
there was something that reallyresonated for you.
I have put links in the episodenotes to the YESS program that
Diana mentioned, as well as theGrowing Yourself Up book that
she recommended.
If you have found this podcasthelpful, please do take a moment
to subscribe.
Maybe even give us a rating or areview.
(40:52):
It really does help us get thepodcast in front of more people
who have School Can't kids, andwho haven't yet found our
community and all theinformation that we share.
If you've been inspired to shareyour own School Can't lived
experience, and I would lovethat, please drop me an email to
schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com.
It is such a relaxed process.
(41:12):
Anyone could do it, and I'd loveto hear from you.
If you are a parent or carer inAustralia and you are feeling
distressed, please remember youcan always call the Parent
Helpline in your state.
A link with the number to callis in the episode notes.
Thank you again for listening.
We will talk again soon.
Take care.
Hello and welcome to the School Can't
Experience Podcast.
I'm Leisa Reichelt and thispodcast is brought to you by the
School Can't Australiacommunity.
Caring for a young person who isstruggling to attend school can
be a stressful and isolatingexperience, but you are not
alone.
Thousands of parents acrossAustralia and many more around
the world face similarchallenges and experiences every
(00:27):
day.
Today we are joined by Diana,who is a School Can't mum of two
young people, both of whom havehad challenges with mainstream
school.
Diana is based on the northernbeaches of Sydney in Australia,
and in this episode, Diana verycandidly shares her experience
of supporting her son Jamesthrough his School Can't
(00:48):
experience.
A quick content warning.
This episode does make a briefmention of a suicide threat, so
please do take care whenlistening.
I hope you enjoy Diana's story.
Thank you so much, Diana, forjoining us and agreeing to be on
our podcast today.
Diana Keyes (01:04):
My pleasure.
Leisa Reichelt (01:05):
What can you tell us about yourself, your
family?
what's going on for you?
Diana Keyes (01:11):
Wow.
That's, where to start.
no, look, I suppose in some waysyou'd say we're probably a
fairly normal actually, what isnormal?
My husband and I, we've beenmarried for a long time.
We have two kids.
We have our older daughter,Bella, who's 23, who, in
hindsight had her own SchoolCan't journey, although we
(01:33):
probably called it truancy atthe time.
That's a very long andinteresting story, probably
another podcast.
And then we have our gorgeousJames, who's now 19.
I would say we are a group ofshy introverts.
I just thought that was us.
(01:54):
In hindsight, I think we allhave a neurodiversity.
You know, one or more, that hasmade our lives, perhaps more
challenging than for normalfamilies.
Sorry, I keep using that word.
Leisa Reichelt (02:06):
Yeah.
Diana Keyes (02:07):
that's us.
we're all good.
but there's been a lot ofchallenges along the way.
Leisa Reichelt (02:12):
And so today we're going to focus on your
son's journey.
Diana Keyes (02:16):
Yes.
Yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (02:19):
I know this is always different in retrospect
'cause you learn so much alongthe way, if you were going to
look back to the earliest signsof the journey that was to come,
where do you think it allstarts?
Diana Keyes (02:33):
In hindsight with everything I've learned, I would
look back at his separationanxiety as being the first
indicator of the challenges tocome.
At the time, I thought he wasshy and introverted and a
homebody, and that was okay.
(02:55):
In fact, you know, us introvertshave to spend quite a lot of
time defending ourselves.
But it certainly became a realchallenge, and I think, when the
penny sort of dropped was he wasin preschool and I was doing
like a little tiny tots socceractivity with him.
(03:15):
And I remember all the boys usedto like put up their hand when
the teacher would say, who wantsto do the throw in of the soccer
ball?
And James looked like he justwanted the ground to swallow him
up.
And I remember thinking he wasenrolled to go to our local
public, and the intake that yearwas going to be 10 kindy
(03:36):
classes.
So yeah, that's what, that's 200kindy kids.
My daughter was already at thatschool.
She was really struggling.
We had decided for her that wewere going to transition her to
the local Catholic, which wasjust one class per year.
And so we sort of made this lastminute, like he will just
(04:01):
crumble in a cohort of 200.
That was quite a big decision,because we're not Catholic.
And yeah, he cried and fellapart every single morning of
his kinder year.
He had to be peeled off me, andthat was a pretty traumatic
(04:21):
first year.
So, again, I thought it wassimply social anxiety.
So did everybody else.
And then thankfully going backwith the same cohort between
year one and then until thebeginning of year six, it was
all pretty plain sailing and Ithought we were sort of out of
(04:45):
the woods.
Again, if I look back, therewere further indicators.
He just wanted to play with thesame friend every weekend, who
by the way, got diagnosed asbeing on the autism spectrum
later.
So taking him to birthdayparties was always a bit of a
(05:06):
nightmare.
What else?
Other things that he justoutright refused to do.
Swimming lessons.
For example, living on theNorthern Beaches, everyone's
supposed to do things likeswimming and nippers and, you
know, it was just a solid wallthat we couldn't get past.
If I fast forward to the factthat we did end up with an
(05:27):
autism diagnosis, theneuropsychologist said to me,
actually you created quite aautism friendly environment for
your son inadvertently, probablybecause that is how you liked to
live too.
Leisa Reichelt (05:43):
I think it is a really common thing isn't it?
Like when we see our kidsstruggling with different things
and then you, you insideyourself go, I totally
understand.
I wouldn't really want to go toa birthday party this weekend
either.
Diana Keyes (05:55):
Exactly.
And again, the screaming andwhat seems like, I think there's
this innate seriousnesssometimes and things that people
find fun and we're like, that'sjust silly.
So in hindsight, those were allsigns of what was to come.
Leisa Reichelt (06:18):
How old was your son when he got the autism
diagnosis?
Diana Keyes (06:22):
he was in year 10, so he was almost 16.
It came late because I, I don'tthink we went to the right
professionals to do theassessment.
That is a real learning that Ihave, if you have any sense that
might be the right thing foryour child, your local
(06:45):
psychologist or psychiatrist,unless they absolutely
specialise in it and do theright testing, they're not the
right people to make theassessment.
So yes, year 10.
Leisa Reichelt (06:54):
Lots of kids who do get picked up earlier.
That comes about often becauseteachers mention something from
the school experience whenthey're really young, but that
didn't happen?
Diana Keyes (07:05):
It didn't happen.
I think that's the thing withJames, other than his social
anxiety, he didn't present in away that made teachers think
things.
He was always quite popular.
Kids liked him.
he was not socially isolated andI think he was just, you know,
cooperative, kept his head down.
(07:26):
Obviously didn't do have sort ofrepetitive patterns that maybe
showed up.
To be honest, it wasn't until Ifound my way to the School Can't
community and learnt about PDA,that I was the one that goes,
this is James, I need to pursuethis.
And even then it's like.
Of course all you get inAustralia is, well, PDA is not a
(07:48):
thing.
It's like, okay, maybe it's nota thing, but it's a good way of
describing a collection ofautism behaviours and how they
show up every day.
So yeah,
Leisa Reichelt (08:03):
Let's talk about the school experience and when
the wheels started to fall off.
So we went through primaryschool relatively smoothly, and
then came high school.
Diana Keyes (08:14):
Exactly, we decided just to follow his cohort
because they were a lovely groupof boys to the local Catholic
boys school.
Big mistake.
I think for boys on the autismspectrum and with PDA, I
remember him going on the firstday.
(08:35):
I remember him coming home andsaying, I don't wanna go back
again.
Somehow we managed to getthrough that year, in year seven
they tend to keep a classtogether and the class moves
round together.
But I definitely think, youknow, his attendance probably
did start to slip in year seven,but not to the point where I was
(08:57):
getting calls from the school.
I think he was still in the bandof'normalness' when you don't
end up with those calls everyday.
So got through year seven, yeareight.
I think that's when you wentinto the different classes,
moving between periods, etcetera.
It was also a very blokey schoolwhere it was quite normal for
(09:20):
the older kids to be a bit roughwith the younger kids.
A lot of the older, moreautocratic style teaching
methods were really justshutting James down again.
They had very academicallyrigorous, and not that James
wasn't intelligent, but the wayin which that autocratic style
(09:42):
and calling on people in classand the old styles of shame, did
not suit him.
So in some ways, I think whenthose school shutdowns were
called in about March, was alittle bit of a lifesaver or a
bit of a circuit breaker.
'Cause I think it maybe broughtus another three months or
something.
He refused to participate in anyonline classes.
(10:05):
I just could not get him to,again, I think the school were a
little bit like, okay, it's areally strange time for
everyone.
But then when the schoolreopened we really, really,
really struggled to get himback.
I think that's because, youknow, with social anxiety, it's
the exposure therapy, it's thegoing every day or trying to go
(10:28):
every day.
And then once you have that longbreak, I think for James it was
just a mountain he reallystruggled to climb.
And then that's when the schoolcame in pretty heavy handed with
a behavioural program.
They would check in every singleday.
(10:48):
What were we doing?
What was he eating?
What was his sleep routineslike?
And of course, at this point hewas deep into gaming.
And so getting him to bed was anightmare.
Leisa Reichelt (11:00):
But the assumption from the beginning
was it was something you weredoing at home that was causing
the problem.
Diana Keyes (11:05):
So it was all parental based.
Your parenting style, you arenot enough discipline and that's
what it was absolutely allabout.
You are not disciplining him.
You are not controlling, youknow, you are not doing the
right things as parents.
yeah, very much.
So then we, trying to do theright thing, and because we had
(11:29):
had an experience with ourdaughter where she was sort of,
again, I would say School Can't,but we thought it was truancy.
And again, we thought it was,and then you start to think,
well, this is my second child.
It has to be me.
We have to be doing somethingwrong.
And look, I was never a, youmust sit there until you finish
your dinner type parent.
Because I always thought, thechild knew when they were full.
(11:50):
So I suppose you would say I wasa fairly relaxed parent, and
then there's all this selfdoubt.
We got to the point where, wehad probably started to find
psychologists to help.
This is where the whole, youneed to make home really
uncomfortable for them came in.
(12:12):
And so we tried to make homereally uncomfortable.
We said to James, if you don'tgo to school, you have to leave
the house for the day.
You can't be in the house.
You can't have the comfort ofthe house.
Leisa Reichelt (12:24):
And the school and the psychologists were okay
with that.
Diana Keyes (12:26):
think they really knew, if I'm honest, because
this is the whole thing, whenthey go the home really
uncomfortable, it's like, whatdo you mean by that?
And they don't really know whatthey mean.
Well, do you just offer what?
not, nothing to eat, but Isuppose you make them their
school lunch and you put thatout and there's nothing else.
(12:47):
How do you control that whenyour two parents who are working
and out of the house?
Well, I suppose you get to thepoint where you switch the modem
off and you carry it to workwith you.
Highly impractical.
But these are all the thingsyou're forced into.
And then, you know, many of ushave also experienced some of
the violence that comes withthat.
When, with boys, I'm taking themodem and switching it off and
(13:11):
taking it to bed with me.
Then parents end up having tocall the police because there
can be violence as a result.
I feel like when professionalssay make the home uncomfortable,
they don't know what they'resaying.
And, and, and look, maybe thereare examples of some people
saying, yes, I did do that andit worked But we, I feel like,
(13:33):
took it to the extreme and wethen ended up with James
basically making a suicidethreat because he felt so
cornered by us that he, he feltlike he had no way out.
And I think we feel very ashamedabout that and very, yeah, that
(14:00):
was really, really hard.
And we ended up at the localhospital in the emergency ward.
And is he going to go into themental health facility with all
the, the time, very, very unwellpeople.
And I just remember sittingthere with James and I just
said, let's just get the heckoutta here.
And we just discharged him andgot home and I just thought, I'm
(14:25):
going to drive my son to asuicide attempt.
And needless to say, my husbandand I were not coping at all,
and we see that all the time onthe School Can't Facebook page,
people are literally at the endof their tethers because you're
trying to satisfy the school,and keep up with society, I
(14:46):
suppose.
So I think we just let yeareight peter out.
Kept in touch with school and atthis point in time we started,
trying to find psychologists whocould help us with School
Refusal.
And again, all the answers werejust teach him how to breathe
(15:08):
deeply and blow into a tissue ifhe's feeling anxious.
And you know, look, they wereall very well meaning, but we
just never found our way toanyone that was really helpful.
Year nine.
We're like, okay, give thisanother go.
He went to school on the firstday of year nine, second day of
(15:30):
year nine he's like, I can't getoutta bed.
Now, keep in mind, we paid ahuge amount of school fees in
year eight for him not toattend,
Leisa Reichelt (15:40):
And for them to give you all of that advice.
Diana Keyes (15:42):
Yes, push the family to the limit.
One thing I would say is theschool tried.
But because of that schoolenvironment, sometimes they
would say to James, look, youcan just do two periods and then
go home.
When James was walking to theoffice to be picked up by me,
some school teacher would comeup to him and challenge him and
(16:04):
say, where are you going youngman?
Why are you walking in the wrongdirection?
You cannot change a whole schoolenvironment, even if you get
pockets of understanding.
It was that kind of schoolenvironment.
Leisa Reichelt (16:19):
Still remains a threatening place.
Diana Keyes (16:21):
a threatening place, and it was like, your
socks have slipped halfway downyour legs, young man, you know?
So it was, for goodness sake,you don't know.
I've just been through hell andback for the last two hours to
get him there.
I get him through the door andhe is attacked.
My daughter's experience whenshe would occasionally get to
(16:42):
school is sometimes the teacherswould say, oh, class, why don't
we clap Bella
Leisa Reichelt (16:48):
oh
Diana Keyes (16:48):
for turning up?
Leisa Reichelt (16:51):
no.
Diana Keyes (16:51):
You are like, this is, and, you've been through
hell and back to get them there.
Leisa Reichelt (16:55):
How humiliating.
Diana Keyes (16:57):
so humiliating.
So look, there's so much thatstill needs to be changed in our
schools.
So I guess we worked out wecan't change the school.
And James is just suffering andwe are suffering.
So I rang the school.
I'm like, okay, we're giving younotice to unenroll.
Normally it's a terms notice.
They were thrilled for us to begone and off their books,
(17:21):
because we were ruining theirattendance
Leisa Reichelt (17:24):
statistics and yeah,
Diana Keyes (17:27):
off you go.
So then we started the DistanceEd application process.
Now you cannot apply to DistanceEd from a private school.
That's a, a nice little tidbit.
Leisa Reichelt (17:43):
this is in New South Wales.
Diana Keyes (17:44):
South Wales.
Yes.
So we had to go cap and hand toour local public boys school who
didn't really wanna know aboutus.
This is where parental advocateis, you just have to be, you
know, your child's advocate andyou, and I'm like, I don't care.
We live an area.
You have to enroll us.
And then now you have to gothrough this process.
(18:05):
I'm sorry, school counselor, ifyou don't know us and you don't
know James, but you have to dothis big application.
We gave them all the reports wehad from the private school and
look, they did it, but I was onthem every second day.
I did end up calling theDepartment of Education.
I called Distance Ed, and said,look, we're going through this
(18:27):
process once they know you'regoing through the process, they
did actually send us some papermaterials, which was really
kind.
Leisa Reichelt (18:36):
Diana, I assume you had plenty of time on your
hands to do all of this advocacywork, and you weren't working a
big job or anything like that.
Diana Keyes (18:44):
Okay.
No.
So I was working full time in avery, very full on job.
I worked for multinational whowas going through one of the
latest round of globalrestructures and redundancy.
I think by this point I wasreporting offshore you know, so
I couldn't really talk about itwith anybody.
Leisa Reichelt (19:06):
How on earth did you manage to cope with
supporting James and everythingthat he's been through and
having your whole approach toparenting challenged and all of
that, and manage your job?
Diana Keyes (19:22):
Yeah, I don't know.
I, I think it's sort of like, ifyou're bush walking and you're
10 Ks in and you break your leg,somehow you manage to drag
yourself out and afterwards yougo, I don't know how I did that.
Because you have no choice.
I'm not saying I didn't havemeltdowns along the way.
I absolutely had meltdowns atwork and at home, I didn't feel
(19:44):
like I could talk about it withanybody.
How I managed was finding my wayto that School Can't Facebook
group.
Someone mentioned it to me somepoint, and then it's like, oh my
goodness, I am not alone.
I am not a terrible person.
There's a whole lot of goodpeople going through this
(20:04):
experience.
We just gotta keep going throughit.
I I have to survive and I lovemy son and we are just going to
get through this.
Leisa Reichelt (20:13):
Yeah.
So you're in the midst of allthe paperwork and administration
of trying to get James into DE.
Diana Keyes (20:19):
Yes, that's where I learned about this concept of
Deschooling Or just letting himbe.
And that, for parents it's likeletting go in a really scary way
because it's the absoluteopposite of everything you are
being told and everything thatthe school is telling you.
(20:41):
So he got accepted into DE andthen, like so many parents from
the School Can't Facebook page.
He sat down in front of thecomputer and he said, I can't do
this.
And that's when you feel likeyou've lost touch with reality
and you're just literally out ofideas.
Leisa Reichelt (21:00):
Especially after all that effort to make it
happen.
Diana Keyes (21:04):
And I think, thankfully I was learning about
this concept of deschooling, andI also knew through my
daughter's experience that yearnine is a little bit of a
nothing year.
It's like, it's not year 10where there's sort of some
mandatory requirements and Ijust thought if he logs on every
(21:24):
now and then and does a tinybit, that will be enough for us
to get through that year.
I mean, I feel like he didn'tleave his room for a lot of year
nine.
What I call year nine, you know,age 14,15, and again, I think so
many people have been throughthat or are going through that.
That is the biggest thing, whenI get on the School Can't
(21:45):
Facebook group I see thosedesperate parents and they go,
my son or daughter is 14, 15 andthey don't leave their room.
And I, chime in and go.
if they're safe in their room,then maybe that's okay, and
maybe that's just what they needto do.
Because you think about hard ithas been.
Like in reality, James would'vebeen masking the whole way
(22:07):
through primary, and he just hadtwo horrendous year seven and
eight years where he was justlike a shell of himself.
And I know that he was so fullof shame and he was so upset
with himself.
'Cause he would cry and he wouldsay, why can't I do what
everybody else is doing?
And of course we didn't have thediagnosis.
(22:28):
In the end, the psychiatristsand psychologists recommended
the same program.
It was through Uniting, it wascalled YESS.
Youth Enhanced Support Servicesand they're like, look, we think
they're running a really goodprogram that might suit you
guys.
So we found our way there andthey started advocating also,
just leave him, just let him be,just take the pressure off and,
(22:53):
it was sort of coming via thisconcept of Deschooling and it
was coming via them.
Leisa Reichelt (23:00):
What a relief to hear that from somebody in an
authority position.
Diana Keyes (23:04):
It was, it, it really was.
I was looking back on my noteswith them though.
I suggested autism and they werelike, no, no, no.
They started suggesting thingslike Cluster B Personality Type,
which is like the whole BPD,bipolar, schizophrenia, or
severe depression.
I look back on my notes now andgo no, that doesn't feel right.
(23:27):
But course we were treating itlike severe depression.
So that's the other thing.
You look back and you go, wewere trying to heavily medicate
James.
And for some kids that'shelpful.
I don't ever think it was forJames.
Leisa Reichelt (23:42):
The other thing with depression too is it's
always like get outside and dothings and engage with the world
and that's how you help withdepression.
And I'm sure it does help a lotwith depression, but it adds all
the pressure onto the kids andfor you to get them out as well,
doesn't it?
Diana Keyes (23:56):
exactly.
When I think about year nine, orthat probably 15-year-old, we
decided we're just going to lethim be because our family is not
going to survive otherwise.
And he started to do somereally, really simple things,
which was he started to gogrocery shopping with my husband
(24:17):
once a week with his hoodie on.
He would go three suburbs awaywe'd take him to a Coles and
we'd just say, put whatever youwant in the trolley.
You know, anything to just gethim out of the house.
So that was once a week.
And then the other thing myhusband was doing, like
volunteer work, food delivery,and we said to James, Hey, you
(24:40):
know, we'll give you$50 if yougo on this food delivery with
Stewart.
It wasn't confronting for Jamesbecause he was just in and outta
the car with his dad anddropping food on the, on the
footsteps.
So that was kind of for him alittle bit of a dipping his toe
back into the world.
Okay.
So then I think by year 10,that's when we were like, you
(25:03):
know, if you want to putyourself in a position to maybe
do year 11 and 12, and the onlyreason, like we are not, those
sorts of parents are like, youmust go to university.
You must do year 11 and 12.
I had always been happy, youknow, if you wanna go to TAFE,
if you wanna get a job, But justknowing James, he's a smart boy
(25:25):
and I think the sorts of jobsthat would suit him would
probably require a unieducation.
So we just didn't wanna sort ofnot keep that option open.
And I think that's where wethought, okay, year 10, he will
have to hand in some work.
And we probably then decided asa family that it was going to be
(25:47):
a little bit of a group effort.
So I would sit with James andwork through the curriculum with
him.
Now I'm working full time.
And again, what I would say tosome parents is if they get an
hour and a half of qualitylearning a day, then that's
(26:10):
probably more than they wereever getting in face-to-face
school anyway.
So I think sometimes we set thebar so high, we're like, I can't
Distance Ed my kid, or I can'thomeschool them I'm like, well,
you probably got an hour in theevening that you can find, or
again, with this hybrid working,I was working from home two days
a week.
(26:30):
So if my lunch break was spentwith James, then it was spent
with James.
And again, we feel a lot ofguilt.
should we be helping our child?
Well, I had to know that he wastaking the information in
because he's gotta do writtenexams.
We did help scaffold thelearning, I suppose is one way
to say it.
(26:53):
And this is probably around thetime when we finally said, let's
go to a proper neuropsychologistwho does the autism assessment.
She was like, yes, he's a ASD2.
And it's like, you know, at thispoint he's almost 16 and
everyone I've ever asked islike, no.
Leisa Reichelt (27:14):
All of those opinions are mostly from having
a talk to him and
Diana Keyes (27:17):
Absolutely.
Leisa Reichelt (27:18):
he is masking his face off.
Diana Keyes (27:21):
And it's also some of the things like, okay, some
presentations I think are quitesort of classic and then other
presentations are not.
I think the speech for him isjust like, he's quite well
spoken, but it was our daughterwho said he's a teenage boy on
(27:42):
the Northern Beaches.
He should not soundquasi-English you know?
Leisa Reichelt (27:49):
Speaks like a middle-aged man.
Yeah.
Diana Keyes (27:51):
Exactly.
Any sort of, sensitivity totexture or food, he never really
had that.
But I think he's got sensitivityto sound and noise, but that
didn't present particularlyobviously.
He was always really upset withthe high school bus that was
really crowded and jam packed.
Now I would think that was anoversensitivity to that
(28:14):
stimulation.
Leisa Reichelt (28:16):
I think with high masking autistic people as
well, they internalize thosesensory sensitivities so much
that they just think, and I, youknow, including myself in this,
honestly, you think everyone'sexperiencing it the same way,
right?
And so you're just like, well, Ijust need to like suck it up and
(28:36):
deal.
So you get to the point whereyou're like, I don't have any
sensory sensitivities.
I just don't understand whyanybody else isn't wearing their
sunglasses today.
Diana Keyes (28:46):
Yeah, Exactly.
At all my crazy work events thatgo on to three in the morning,
and I'm like, can I politelyexit at 9:00 without ruffling
any feathers?
You know?
And, again, I would have justput that down to just being an
introvert.
But now I think, I'm strugglingwith the overstimulation.
(29:07):
Also, I've learned so much aboutautism with the whole, how it
actually presents in your body.
Like James has, you know, hisposture is not ideal and I've
learned about, I'm not going tosay it right, but the prop
system or, so that's the wholewhere, the perception of
distance and that sort of thing.
Leisa Reichelt (29:30):
I am thinking proprioception.
Diana Keyes (29:32):
Yes.
There we are.
Thank you.
Again, it's like lack ofcoordination.
He was quite sporty, so thatdidn't come out, but he's very
slowly learning to drive becauseI think he cannot maybe screen
out lot of the things that, kidswho are super confident and
like, I can't see that cararound me.
(29:53):
I think he can see everything,it's been such an interesting
journey.
Leisa Reichelt (29:56):
So he got through year 10 with the team
support.
Diana Keyes (30:00):
Yes.
Then again, I suppose that's howwe approached year 11 and 12
too.
Now, Distance Ed said to us, ifhe's not doing maths, he should
not do ATAR.
And I just thought to myself,I'm a lawyer.
I know lots of lawyers thatcannot add up numbers.
(30:20):
I do not think not doing mathshould exclude you from an ATAR.
I think that's a really weirdthinking that's got into the
school system.
Leisa Reichelt (30:28):
Hmm.
Diana Keyes (30:29):
So no, he didn't do maths.
only because he just missed somuch of it.
And I think so many subjects, itdoesn't matter if you've missed
the building blocks, but I thinkwith maths it builds on itself.
That was a learning gap that wasjust too hard to make up if I'm
perfectly honest.
Whereas with a lot ofhumanities, you just sort of
(30:50):
pick them up and go with it.
We made it through year 11 and12 together, as I think many
neurotypical kids inface-to-face school do.
Whether it's coaching orparental assistance, sometimes
people just need help.
Leisa Reichelt (31:11):
What does doing your HSC look like if you're
doing Distance Education as aASD2 individual.
Diana Keyes (31:18):
Yeah.
Well that was interestingbecause we got a bit of a shock
when they're like, oh, he'lljust have to go along to his
local high school that he'snever set foot in and sit his
HSC amongst all these kids.
And we were like, oh, wow.
I don't know if he'll be able tomanage that.
(31:39):
So we said, well, whatalternatives are there?
And look, there, there is lotsand lots of support, including
he could have sat the HSC athome and he could have had
someone from the Department ofEducation come into our home and
observe him.
I think that's really good.
I don't know why that's not morewidely known.
(31:59):
In the end, James actually didgo to his local high school and
sit
Leisa Reichelt (32:04):
Wow.
Diana Keyes (32:05):
all of those exams We just take our hat off.
We didn't know every morningwhether he would be able to do
that.
And of course if he hadn't beenable to do that, we would've
been able to do the misadventureform if we'd been able to get to
your doctor on that day.
That didn't end up beingnecessary, but I think it's
really good for people to knowthat.
There's writing support, there'sadditional time.
(32:27):
But there is this thing wherethey can actually sit their HSC
at home.
This is in New South Wales.
I can't speak for the otherstates.
Leisa Reichelt (32:37):
Yes, but New South Wales not renowned for its
support of kids who arestruggling at school.
Diana Keyes (32:42):
Absolutely.
And look, what I would say aboutDistance Education is it's just
school, but remotely.
And some of the teachers, theycouldn't care less if James had
autism, all they say is, oh, youcan do your HSC half time, like,
spend two years on half thesubjects and another two years
on another half of the subjects.
That seems to be all that's onoffer.
(33:04):
And I said, well, that's justdeath by a thousand cuts.
I'm sorry.
We're not doing that.
Because at Distance Ed, some ofthe kids are actually brilliant
and performing in musicals everynight or they're on the
professional tennis circuit.
It is not super well set upother than the fact that you are
doing it remotely.
(33:24):
But again, I was, fairly notfierce advocate, but I stood my
ground where I felt like therehas to be a disability
discrimination claim against theDepartment of Education because
it's like, how is it possiblethat these kids are not given
any support.
Leisa Reichelt (33:42):
So where are we today?
He managed to get through theHSC.
How are things going now?
Diana Keyes (33:47):
Yeah, look pretty good.
He got a low ATAR, as we knew hewould get because the scaling
with Distance Ed and thesubjects he had chosen.
But with his autism diagnosis,with Distance Ed, you get a few
extra marks and he applied to auni that's considered sort of in
area.
So with those concessions, and Ijust think because universities
(34:10):
have discretion, he got into hiscourse of choice for the first
round offer.
So think we are all killingourselves trying to get our kids
a ATAR of 75 or 80 or whatever.
Well, I can say you can get touni with an ATAR of a lot less
than that.
Leisa Reichelt (34:31):
That's very good to know.
Diana Keyes (34:32):
yes, absolutely.
Now where he is today, he is atface-to-face uni.
Thankfully a lot of it can bedone online.
We said to him, just do twosubjects per semester, and he
got through last semester.
It's not to say he finds iteasy, but he has found it
(34:54):
manageable.
This semester, which we're onlytwo weeks in, and we said, try
three subjects.
Now on Thursday, I said you'regoing in.
I know you've got a big day.
And he was just like, we wereback in year eight again.
He's like, I can't, I just,can't, I can't.
My husband and I like, literallylike, you know, you know what
it's like, like the, your, yourheart sinks and you're like, no,
(35:17):
no, we can't go back to thisagain, but we had a really good
conversation with him and said,just go to two subjects.
Or, or one.
Let's help find a way to go toDisability Services.
Because what the trigger hasbeen is in the tutorials, the
lecturers call on the students,and that for him is a fate worse
(35:40):
than death.
So I've said you can actuallyfind a way to make it known to
the lecturers that you are onthe autism spectrum, and that
for you, you cannot be called onin class.
And this is where the world hasmoved on because that would've
been seen like a disciplinething in high school.
(36:02):
Whereas now I'm hoping they willput some supports in place to
make it possible for him to feelsafe.
So look, we're in a good place.
But it's also understanding thatthis is a lifelong journey.
we are so focused on SchoolCan't, but then sometimes, you
know, you'll hear parents say,well, we've now gone into Life
(36:22):
Can't.
So that's a little bit scarytoo.
Now we are not in Life Can't,but we are also in life has to
look different for this youngman.
And we need to support him indifferent ways he is going to
need support.
But we are confident thattogether with the right support
(36:45):
and with everything that we'velearned, he is going to have a
good life.
Leisa Reichelt (36:53):
I'm sure he has learned a lot along this journey
as well.
Diana Keyes (36:57):
Yeah, he, he absolutely has.
And I think, you know, when hegot his diagnosis, we said to
him, we're so sorry, James,we're so sorry that we haven't
understood.
The way you've been treatedhasn't been right for you.
You know, we said to him, you,you can let go of all that shame
(37:18):
that you were carrying around.
And that was really, reallyhealing.
And it's healing for parentstoo.
Leisa Reichelt (37:25):
Diana, let's move on to our closing
questions.
If you could go back in time andsay something to yourself, when
do you think you would go backto, and what do you think you'd
say?
Diana Keyes (37:38):
I'd go back to before my kids started school,
and I think this is the hardthing for working parents.
You don't get to observe yourchildren enough sometimes in
social settings.
So you don't see, hey, they area little bit different.
But I think if I could go back,I would say be really thoughtful
(38:01):
about the school that youchoose.
Don't just rock on up to thelocal public and think it's all
going to be fine.
I would've chose a really littleK to 12 school if I could have,
in hindsight.
But also don't try and keep upwith everybody.
You've just gotta live your ownlife.
That's really what it's allabout.
(38:21):
And just look at your child andyou and just adjust to their
needs and not keep the world atlarge happy.
'cause that's an impossibletask.
Leisa Reichelt (38:33):
And if you could say one thing to everybody who's
listening, who's on their ownSchool Can't journey at the
moment, what would you like themto hear?
Diana Keyes (38:43):
Well, first of all, I would like to acknowledge how
tough the journey is and howisolating it is.
It's like nothing else I've everexperienced.
It is a very tough journey.
I would also like to say thateducation based trauma is real.
(39:05):
Sometimes when our kids don't goto school, it's for their own
preservation that they're tryingto protect themselves.
And I think there is an art inknowing when to go enough is
enough and, it's okay to sayenough is enough.
And I'm going to dohomeschooling.
(39:26):
You know what's enough for youand your child and nobody else
knows that.
Leisa Reichelt (39:31):
You mentioned a couple of really useful
resources but if you were goingto pick out one that was
particularly helpful to you,what would you recommend to
people as a School Can'tresource.
Diana Keyes (39:42):
I did find that book, Growing Yourself Up by
Jennie Brown, really helpfulbecause it does, I think
sometimes we do have to do a lotof work on ourselves to
emotionally regulate and lookafter ourselves.
I realized that I was making alot of decisions when I was in
that fight or flight stage.Andso, just learning about how you
(40:05):
calm down your amygdala and thenyou, you, you're making
decisions with the hippocampusor whatever it's called.
So I, I would say if there's anygood books that you can read on
on your own self-regulation tohelp yourself with this journey.
That would be good too.
Leisa Reichelt (40:21):
Well, Diana, thank you so much for sharing
the story that your family hasbeen through.
Really, really appreciate it.
Diana Keyes (40:29):
Thanks so much.
Leisa Reichelt (40:30):
So many thanks to Diana again for sharing her
story.
There were so many nuggets ofinsight in there, and I hope
there was something that reallyresonated for you.
I have put links in the episodenotes to the YESS program that
Diana mentioned, as well as theGrowing Yourself Up book that
she recommended.
If you have found this podcasthelpful, please do take a moment
to subscribe.
Maybe even give us a rating or areview.
(40:52):
It really does help us get thepodcast in front of more people
who have School Can't kids, andwho haven't yet found our
community and all theinformation that we share.
If you've been inspired to shareyour own School Can't lived
experience, and I would lovethat, please drop me an email to
schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com.
It is such a relaxed process.
(41:12):
Anyone could do it, and I'd loveto hear from you.
If you are a parent or carer inAustralia and you are feeling
distressed, please remember youcan always call the Parent
Helpline in your state.
A link with the number to callis in the episode notes.
Thank you again for listening.
We will talk again soon.
Take care.
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