October 6, 2025 • 41 mins
Em Hammond of Neurowild joins us for this special episode. Em, a speech therapist and illustrator, emphasizes the importance of understanding and supporting neurodivergent children, particularly in educational settings.
We talk through Em’s resource called ‘Reasons Why Autistic Kids May Not Be OK With ‘Having a Go’ and why this request can be ableist, dismissive of our kids experience and ultimately traumatising. Em highlights the importance of validating children's experiences and asking them about the best ways we can offer them support that actually helps..
00:00 Welcome to the School Can't Experience Podcast
00:26 Introducing Em Hammond: NeuroWild
03:43 Supporting Neurodivergent Kids in Education
05:37 Challenges with Educators and Neurodiversity
07:14 The Importance of Context and Communication
09:59 The 'Have a Go' Dilemma
19:31 Understanding Neurodivergent Kids' Needs
21:26 The Pressure of Being Perceived
22:42 The Fear of Failure and Its Impact
23:37 Logical and Analytical Thinking in Kids
26:47 Gestalt Language Processing in Neurodivergent Kids
35:27 Understanding Ableism
39:50 Resources and Support for Parents
Recommended Resources
- Reasons Why Autistic Kids May Not be OK with Having a Go: https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1SBA4mzbNH/
- Neurowild on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/p/NeuroWild-100087870753308
- Neurowild on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/neurowild_/?hl=en
- TeachersPayTeachers Resources: https://www.teacherspayteachers.com/store/emily-hammond-neurowild
- Save Victorian Parent Helpline Petition: https://www.megaphone.org.au/petitions/save-parentline
- School Can’t Australia Facebook Community - https://www.facebook.com/groups/schoolphobiaschoolrefusalaustralia
- Make a donation to School Can’t Australia - https://www.schoolcantaustralia.com.au/get-involved
If you are a parent of carer in Australia and experiencing distress, please call Lifeline on 13 11 14 or contact the Parent Help Line. - https://kidshelpline.com.au/parents/issues/how-parentline-can-help-you
You can contact us to volunteer to share your School Can't story or some feedback via email on schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com
Disclaimer
The content of this podcast is based on personal lived experiences and is shared for informational and storytelling purposes only. It should not be treated as medical, psychological, or professional advice under any circumstances. If you have concerns about your health or well-being, please seek guidance from a doctor, therapist, or other qualified professional.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leisa Reichelt (00:05):
Hello and welcome to the School Can't
Experience Podcast.
I'm Leisa Reichelt, and thispodcast is brought to you by the
School Can't Australiacommunity.
Caring for a young person who isstruggling to attend school can
be a stressful and isolatingexperience, but you are not
alone.
Thousands of parents acrossAustralia and many more around
the world face similarchallenges and experiences every
(00:25):
day.
Today's very special guest is EmHammond.
You might know Em as NeuroWildonline.
Em is a speech therapist andshe's also a beautiful
illustrator who takes complexideas about neurodiversity and
makes them approachable and easyfor anyone to understand.
In this episode I wanted to talkto Em about one resource she's
(00:47):
created that really resonatedwith me, which was about how
asking our neurodivergent kidsto just'have a go' can be really
damaging.
I am definitely guilty of doingthis with my kids, and I'm sure
many of you have used the sametactic as well.
I hope you enjoy ourconversation.
thank you so much Em, forjoining us for our podcast
(01:08):
today.
I know a lot of people will bevery thrilled and excited to
hear from you because they'reavid followers of all of the
work that you put out on socialmedia, and we see that shared so
often in the School Can'tAustralia Facebook support group
for parents.
So super exciting to talk to youtoday.
Em (01:27):
Thanks for the invite.
Leisa Reichelt (01:28):
let's start, by just getting a little bit of
context for you.
Can you tell us a little bitabout yourself, your background?
What's your story?
Em (01:37):
I am a late diagnosed autistic and ADHDer, speech
therapist and illustrator, momto three neurodivergent kids,
and I guess I arrived herethrough my clinical work, as a
speechie, when I was new to theneurodiversity affirming
movement and shift, I keptcoming against this issue where
(02:03):
I would try to explain somethingfairly complex to a family or a
kid, or a client or a teacher.
And it was never simple.
45 minutes talking oneparticular topic, trying to
explain it, and then get to theend of the 45 minutes.
And still people don't seem tohave grasped I was getting at.
And I kind of just fell back onmy drawing skills, I suppose,
(02:28):
and just said, you know, I canthink of an analogy to explain
this, or an example, or a symbolor a visual to explain this
concept better and made thefirst one, I think it was, might
have been the double empathyproblem and was quite astounded
by how quickly people were ableto grasp that complex idea in a
(02:51):
tiny fraction of the time in 15seconds of reading.
And then they, they understandand go, ah,
Leisa Reichelt (02:56):
Hmm.
Em (02:57):
that just showed me in a really big way that that's what
I should be doing more of.
Because how many topics did Ineed to explain again and again
and again that I was findingtricky.
So that's led us to here and I'mstill doing it.
Leisa Reichelt (03:12):
Yeah.
it is incredible, isn't it?
And I guess it gives you so muchmore scale as well, ability to
impact so many more lives, whichis amazing.
Em (03:19):
It is.
And that was never the plan fromthe beginning.
It was just.
I need this in the, four wallsof my therapy sessions.
Leisa Reichelt (03:25):
Hmm.
Em (03:27):
when I saw how useful it was and I thought, well, I better
let other clinicians access thisresource as well.
And then it spread from there toparents and families and other
allied health clinicians and allover.
So that's been pretty wild.
Leisa Reichelt (03:43):
Something that I know you do a lot of work on is
trying to help support educatorsto understand neurodiversity
better and to think about how tosupport neurodiverse kids in an
educational context.
How did that become somethingthat you leaned into?
Em (04:04):
inevitable, I suppose, because the majority of kids
that I was supporting directlyclinically, were school aged.
when I sat down and reflected onthe best way to holistically
support these kids, I keptremembering that I see them for
(04:25):
such a short amount of time eachweek or each fortnight.
their family has got them forthe majority of the time, or
their teacher, so family andtheir teacher are the two people
who are gonna have the mostinfluence on this kid.
They have the most time withthem.
They are optimally placed to bereally neuro affirming.
(04:50):
Give them the support, make abig difference to this kid's
life and to their wellbeing.
Big picture.
I was less well placed to dothat, only having seen them for
a session a week or a session afortnight.
So it was an intentional kind ofthing to go, how can I try and
get this kid's parents and thiskid's teacher onto the same page
(05:13):
so that these affirming messagesthat I am communicating with
them and helping them build,helping them build up their
wellbeing and their sense ofself regard, that kind of thing.
How can I get that coming from afew more different angles for
this kid?
I'm gonna try and give them thebest shot to absorb this and to
feel good about themself andtheir brain.
So, I had to figure out ways toget that communication with
(05:36):
schools.
It doesn't work when you've gota clinician saying, this is what
I need you to do for this kid atschool.
And the teacher says, I don'tagree.
Leisa Reichelt (05:43):
Hmm.
Em (05:44):
I'm gonna do this because this is the way I've been
trained.
that doesn't help the kid.
And that's been a reallyuncomfortable and tricky thing
to navigate, because a lot ofteachers have not gone through
this same journey that I have toarrive at this neuro-affirming
lens.
They've done their own journeyof training and their own life
(06:05):
experiences and they've arrivedat a really different place to
me.
And it's hard to shift beliefsthat you've held for a really,
really long time.
And, if you are in spaces whereyour belief systems are just
being reinforced by everybodywho shares those, there's no
need to push outwards andchange.
So it it is tricky.
(06:27):
There are certainly lots ofteachers who kind of come and
ask questions and say, I wannabe affirming.
Help me.
it's obviously a lot easier towork with them than the ones who
say, I've been a teacher for 40years and I don't need you to
tell me how to run my class.
Thanks.
which also happens quite a lot.
Leisa Reichelt (06:43):
I think a lot of School Can't parents have been
in a room with educators andtheir allied health support
people and heard the educatorssay, well, that's great that you
have that point of view, butlike, you don't know about
education, you don't know abouteducating, you know, we'll,
we'll take your thoughts onboard and make our own
decisions.
And it is kind of dishearteningat times.
Em (07:06):
It makes me really upset a lot of the time whenever I have
to go to that space in my mindor into those conversations.
I did make a little bit of abreakthrough in my mind quite
recently about it.
A lot of clinicians showing upto schools, handing over
recommendations, goals, IEPoutlines, things like that.
(07:28):
Saying this kid needs thesesupports, All of that is based
on the thinking we have done,all of the learning we have
done, and we are not bringingteachers into our thinking.
We're not inviting them to dothat thinking on their own.
We are just giving them thingsto do.
Maybe legally they do have to dothem because we might get it
(07:48):
into an IEP, but I'm notconvinced that they're gonna do
them in an affirming way.
You know, it's gonna be fine.
We'll give this kid this set ofaccommodations.
But, they're presented in a waythat the kid is never gonna
wanna use them because they aregoing to be the center of
attention, or there's been anegative vibe about it, or, the
classroom isn't safe for it.
(08:09):
You know, lots of differentthings.
So we need to do the thinkingwith the teachers first before
we give them things to do,because thinking has to come
first.
The thinking informs the doing.
Leisa Reichelt (08:22):
It makes me think that in those situations
you're handing over the whatwithout giving the why.
What you say about, you know,you can have these
accommodations which go, ifyou're feeling dysregulated, you
can leave the classroom for 20minutes and go to this place.
But the way that it's done canmean that kids will never do
that because they don't wannadraw attention to themselves or
they don't feel safe in thewellbeing space, which is sadly
(08:42):
a thing too.
Em (08:43):
Yeah.
Or that the access to thesupports comes with conditions.
So you can have a break, butit's this many minutes at the
back of a classroom with thisparticular support, and then you
need to do this and come back
Leisa Reichelt (08:53):
My son used to be able to go to the wellbeing
space, the counselor space, butthe rule was you could only be
there for 20 minutes.
he was like, well, what's thepoint?
Because how will I know thatI'll feel better in 20 minutes,
and I know that I'm beingwatched and observed to make
sure that I'm not here in 20minutes time.
it was just more stressful thanit was helpful.
Em (09:11):
We had a situation where the teacher told the whole class
that a student could use fidgettools in the classroom if they
have a letter from their doctor.
Which, you know, really going,it's look at this child with
(09:33):
this medical problem and orillness or sickness that they
need permission from a doctor touse this versus it could, it
didn't have to happen that way.
no kid in there is like, I canbe seen with a fidget
Leisa Reichelt (09:46):
It's a symbol of being broken.
Em (09:48):
Yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (09:49):
Well, on behalf of all of us.
Thank you for doing the work.
Em, keep going.
We're, sending you all thesupport that we possibly can.
Let's change tack then.
I wanted to talk about having ago.
There was something about, poststhat you made a, a little while
ago would link to it so peoplecould, can see it on Facebook.
But it was just about thatwhole, like, oh, just have a go.
(10:12):
You know, you'll try it, it'llprobably be fine.
it just, my head was nodding offbecause I was like, that
happened to me all the time whenI was a kid.
And I have used it on my ownchild on many occasions as well.
Just the way that you broke itdown as to why, for particularly
our neurodiverse kiddos.
Having a go is not the littleask that it might sound like,
(10:34):
but it actually is much greaterdemand and often really
problematic.
I thought it was veryinsightful.
So I wonder, was there aparticular thing that triggered
you into making that, or haveyou just got a long list of
things to cover?
Em (10:49):
It was an end of year school night award ceremony, I think.
And it was a, I watched thechild, I didn't know, be sort of
encouraged, encouraged,encouraged to head up on the
stage and receive the award infront of this auditorium full of
people.
And it was really upsetting towatch, the number of adults who
(11:17):
didn't know.
I, noticed, everyone noticedwhat her body was doing in her
message, you know, she was veryclear about it, how
uncomfortable and upsetting anddistressing it was.
None of that was good enough tostop the adults encouraging,
encouraging, encouraging.
Because receiving award,receiving award for your
beautiful whatever, that's alovely positive thing.
(11:40):
You definitely need to come andhave this experience.
You're gonna love it.
It's a lovely positive thing.
And that projecting about thatexperience onto this kid when it
was very clearly to this wholeroom full of people, not a
lovely positive thing.
Receiving this award in front ofeverybody here was traumatic.
(12:00):
And I hate how most of theparents, everyone is going, oh,
she ended up getting onto thestage and getting her award.
This is a big win.
Yay.
You did it.
That was the outcome we wantedand we're happy about it.
We're gonna tell you that we'reso happy about it.
And thought that was so off themark for what should have
(12:22):
happened here for this kid?
And it was because of adultsprojecting and going, you know,
an adult looking at thatparticular situation or any
situation where you're sayinghave a go is often the adult has
appraised it as safe.
You are not going to get hurtgoing and having a go here.
There's terrible consequence onthe other side of your go.
(12:45):
I am going to push you into thisuncomfortable thing because
actually I think you're gonnaenjoy it.
Other kids your age seem toenjoy it, I enjoyed it when I
was your age or what have you.
I don't know about you, butthose kinds of situations that
are, you know, physically, sure,my body's fine, but my brain is
(13:08):
on fire.
This is, I'm burning here.
I'm going to think about itforever and it's going to be a
source of trauma forever, andI'm going to go over it and over
it again in my head.
That is the badness of it.
Sure my body's safe, but thatwas the thing I wanted to avoid.
(13:30):
because it does not help mecarrying that baggage moving
forward into any activity.
I wish I hadn't been put intothis situation right now.
And its tricky because a lot ofadults love the word resilience
and doing things that you don'tlike or doing things that you
are a bit scared of.
That's building resilience,isn't it?
You do need to be able to.
(13:52):
Give it a go, do those things.
And particularly in Australiawhere that is like a big part of
our culture is that we're gonnagive it go.
And that we are not that fussedabout much.
Um, easygoing.
I think it's just dismissive ofthose kids who are pushed into
(14:12):
those situations.
They do get that horribleexperience and then they get to
carry it and adults brush itoff.
Leisa Reichelt (14:18):
I think the risk and the damage are really
invisible in a lot of ways,aren't they?
But that doesn't make them notreal.
Em (14:24):
Not even invisible, you know, if I'm thinking of this
little one at this awardceremony, it was very visible,
but it's so easy for a room fullof people to dismiss that and
go, that's a silly childish,that's nothing to worry about.
with the have a go thing a lotof the time that is said to kids
when the adults have thoughtthat it's gonna be enjoyable,
Leisa Reichelt (14:44):
Hmm.
Em (14:44):
this is an extracurricular thing.
Just have a go.
Have a go at that game.
Have a go at that sport.
it's fun.
You're gonna think that it'sfun.
people have different ideas offun if your goal is for that
child to find fun, findenjoyment, they are gonna need
some measure of comfort andsafety to do that, first of all.
(15:05):
But if pushing them to, shutdown, break down meltdown, did
you achieve your goal?
in adult minds, they'rethinking.
My goal is for you to have fun,but actually it's just that you
participate.
Leisa Reichelt (15:19):
Yeah.
Em (15:20):
And maybe those two have been conflated
Leisa Reichelt (15:22):
Yeah, sometimes it's not about fun, it's just
that it's not that bad.
you'll go and do this, andyou'll discover that it's not
that bad, and then it will beokay for next time.
It's weird though, isn't it?
Because a lot of us have at somepoint in our life, had an
experience where we were anxiousabout doing something and then
we did it, and then it was goodor it was fine.
And that does happen sometimes.
when you want good things foryour child, you don't want them
(15:44):
to be held back fromopportunities, so you're like,
I'll give them a little nudge,and then they might go, oh, I'm
really glad that I did that,even though I was a bit scared.
Em (15:55):
I think it is just about tuning in to your kid.
That's all.
I think.
you are the parent, you're theexpert on your kid.
you are collecting experienceswith them to know what you are
thinking they're gonna react tosomething.
What sort of prompting, if any,is effective or really not.
(16:16):
You have tried things before.
You've seen what's happened.
if you have a kid who is reallynervous at new things, but you
know, with the scaffolding, theencouragement with the mom's
here with you, we can give it ago.
We can also leave if you like.
We're just gonna give it 10minutes, something like that,
and then circle back after andgo, are you glad that we stayed?
(16:37):
was that a good thing?
Was it helpful that I did X, Y,and Z?
Yes or no?
Do you think you might wannacome back?
I think parents sitting therewaiting to go.
Aha.
I was right.
See, I think that's unhelpfulbecause your kid isn't a robot.
You know what I mean?
Like they've, they've gotdifferent things happening at
every single
Leisa Reichelt (16:57):
Hmm.
Em (16:57):
day of their life, different situations, different mental
capacity, different emotionalstate.
They're never gonna be exactlythe same at any different time.
So just going, this is what I'mnoticing.
I'm noticing you've got some bigemotions today.
I'm noticing your energy seemspretty low today.
I'm noticing you're finding X,Y, and Z tricky.
On that day, I would not bepushing my kid to do anything.
(17:20):
I'd be
Leisa Reichelt (17:21):
Hmm.
Em (17:21):
oh, you are having a bit of a time.
Normal everyday things that areoften easy for you are tricky
today.
That's not a day that I'm goingto give you gentle encouragement
because I'm asking you to spendmental energy spoons that you
just don't have.
On a separate occasion thatkid's had a great day and I'm
(17:42):
like, Ooh, there's thisopportunity this afternoon for
blah.
And they go, oh no, I don'tthink so.
And I'm like, oh, you've had agreat day.
I can tell your brain has gotquite a lot of flexibility in it
in this moment.
'cause I've just watched how youcollaborated with your sibling
and problem solving and reallypositive.
Beautiful.
What about if here's youropportunity, here's your gentle
encouragement.
(18:02):
If he says no, it's like fairenough.
do, you know what I mean?
It's just
Leisa Reichelt (18:05):
Yeah.
Em (18:06):
some days that opportunity will be taken up
Leisa Reichelt (18:09):
Yeah.
Em (18:09):
other days they might be going, no.
And I think you don't wanna getstuck one way or the other.
Being really one way or theother and going, I'm just gonna
stay here, is not the waybecause your kid doesn't stay
there.
Leisa Reichelt (18:24):
So you just really gotta observe the
feedback that you're getting andadjust to that.
Em (18:29):
I would be asking them after the fact if you have encouraged
them to have a go and they endup having a go check in after
and go, you know, was thathelpful that I, I told you you
could do it and then I believedin you.
Was that the, was that, the kindof belief that you needed from
me in that moment.
You're glad I did it.
Great.
I can do that again next time ifyou need.
Some kids do need that championAnd I'm gonna negate your,
(18:52):
yourself doubt.
'cause I know you need me toother kids and this is probably
more where I would be, would beif I'm gonna tell you that I
can't do this.
I'm not comfortable doing thisright now.
Don't tell me I can.
I have got a whole list ofreasons why I can't, and they're
pretty solid.
And the bigger one is that Idon't want to, right now
Leisa Reichelt (19:12):
Hmm,
Em (19:12):
I don't want to show everybody in this room that I
can't meet this expectation infront of them like everyone
else.
Leisa Reichelt (19:20):
hmm.
Em (19:21):
I've had that happen and just have a go.
And I did and it was horrifying.
Leisa Reichelt (19:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Em (19:27):
that did not make me stronger.
That just, it's a dreadfulmemory.
So
Leisa Reichelt (19:31):
I was hoping that we might just be able to go
down through some of thoseparticular aspects of our
Neurodiverse kids that make thehaving a go thing particularly
tricky.
And I think you did a reallybeautiful job of that in the
drawings that you did.
Em (19:46):
So it's a pretty shortish resource with images made for
parents, called Reasons WhyAutistic Kids May Not Be Okay
With Having A Go.
So people say that knowledge ispower, but for a lot of autistic
kids, and neuro divergent kids,knowledge is comfort.
We like predictability.
We like to know all the factsbefore we can decide on our
(20:09):
level of participation.
I suppose.
it's just getting our brainprepared.
One of the most stressful thingsis being thrown in the deep end.
That is something that a lot ofadults consider to be a useful
learning strategy to just plonkus in and let us flounder about
(20:31):
and hopefully swim.
That can be really traumatic fora lot of us.
We prefer to know what the taskis, what all the steps are, and
we want to believe that we'regonna do a good job of following
the steps, being able to meetthe expectations, because why
would I involve myself insomething that I think I'm gonna
(20:54):
do poorly.
Which takes us to the nextimage, which says that many
autistics are perfectionists.
We often are expecting a hundredpercent success from ourselves
when we do something.
a lot of that probably comesfrom trauma.
in educational settings and,just the way we were raised and
what beliefs and values we haveabsorbed from our families.
(21:16):
A lot of us are kind of sittingin that perfectionist, rejection
sensitivity dysphoria, maskingstate, and also fawning.
So trying to people please,we've got those things that are
very intertwined and basicallymean that we're not comfortable
making a mistake in front of acrowd.
Leisa Reichelt (21:35):
I was gonna say that really strong sense of
being perceived all the timethat you can't do something and
not feel the gaze of otherpeople upon you.
Em (21:44):
For sure.
And you know, it's aboutperceived when our skill levels
are fluctuating.
For example, a lot ofneurodivergent people are top of
their field, right?
A lot of the top of every fieldyou are looking there, they're
neuro neurodivergent peoplewho've hyper-focused and worked
really hard and gotten there,being perceived as obviously a
(22:06):
part of that.
But, it's, I have chosen to beperceived in this space because
I have reason to believe I do agood job of it.
This is why I'm gonna leteverybody see my resources is
because I have worked reallyhard that there are no mistakes
in them.
I'm not gonna make anybody mad.
they're based on research,they're drawn well, I'm gonna
(22:26):
put it out into the worldbecause I'm reasonably confident
that that's gonna be wellreceived.
and that's the only reason I'mdoing it.
And I'm not gonna put it outinto the world if I don't think
that.
And it's the same with, having ago.
I'm not gonna have a go unless Ifeel like it's gonna go well.
I don't think that this gymclass is gonna go well and I
don't wanna perform this flip infront of people because I've
never been able to do it beforeand now everyone's gonna watch.
(22:51):
So the idea of doing somethingbadly in front of people is
enough to derail.
It is big dysregulation.
I've got big anxiety therealready haven't even gone to the
thing.
And now I'm thinking this iswhat's going to happen and I'm
basing that off all of myprevious experiences that this
adult who's telling me to havego doesn't know about.
(23:14):
They don't know all the othertimes that I've been in a
similar situation and it wentbadly.
So they're telling me to have ago and I've got reasons to know
it's not gonna go well.
And it's not me being, I'm notcatastrophizing, I'm just being
realistic here because I've gotthis catalog of experiences.
They get dismissed when it'scoming from a kid.
The says, nah, I know better.
I'm an adult, you'll be fine.
(23:37):
The next slide I sort ofmentioned that it says many of
us are logical and analytical.
We're weighing up the facts,we're weighing up the risks.
If I can't make all of thosethings stuck up in a favorable
way to me getting this thingdone, then I'm not gonna do it.
Leisa Reichelt (23:54):
Hmm.
Em (23:54):
It's not even that I wouldn't do it because I
would've done it because I wantto please my adults.
I definitely would've done it.
historically did go quitepoorly.
that is still a horrific memoryin my mind to this day.
I would have loved to able optin or opt out of that particular
(24:14):
that was supposed to just befun.
Wasn't fun, was traumatic.
I knew it would be, and then itwas.
It's not, like what's thatphrase where you are, saying
it's going to go badly, so thenit does go badly.
Leisa Reichelt (24:27):
Like a self-fulfilling prophecy
Em (24:28):
the
Leisa Reichelt (24:29):
Hmm.
Em (24:30):
if it is based on my cataloging of my experiences,
it's not an emotional thing.
It's just a bunch of facts to mymind.
Leisa Reichelt (24:39):
Yeah.
Em (24:39):
so I think you are gonna know your kid.
If you do have a kid who ispretty good at catastrophizing,
then you going to have a thinkabout those other sorts of
things that we chatted aboutearlier.
About how, what kind of supportwould you like from me in this
moment, because you have beenknown to focus on this tiny
little bit that went poorly, butthe rest of it was so good.
(25:02):
That might be the space thatyou're gonna work on with your
kid.
Leisa Reichelt (25:05):
Oh, you're making me think of so many.
Like, when I was a kid, I woulddo the thing where I'd go, okay,
every logical thing tells methat this, you know, I'm not
gonna turn up to gymnastics andsuddenly be able to be graceful
at walking on a balance beam oreven staying on a balance beam.
Em (25:21):
I think for a lot of our kids as well, they often just
need more time.
So for example, you might have akid who needs to watch something
a few times, and if you were toplonk them into it at the
beginning, have it go notespecially well, then that gets
(25:45):
written off in their mind.
Leisa Reichelt (25:46):
Hmm.
Em (25:47):
I won't do that.
and that's not something I canovercome and I'll not be going
back versus letting themapproach it at their own pace
and going, I'm not comfortabledoing this, but I'm comfortable
doing this much, I'm comfortabledoing this much and building up
those small wins, those smallpositive experiences and going,
you let me know when you feellike you wanna give this a go,
(26:11):
we can try and help, you know,and this is on your terms
because you are the one in yourbrain, in your body right now.
And I'm not, and I can tell you,Hey, I think you might be really
good at that.
But some kids will appreciatethat and others won't.
So just ask your kid how theyfeel when you say those sorts of
(26:31):
things.
Because if they're like, Iactually love when you believe
in me and say I can do it,great.
I can do more of that.
If they're like, it just makesme feel like you don't get it.
You just think everything'seasy.
It's not easy for me.
Fair enough.
I didn't know.
Now I know.
Don't assume.
That's what I think.
Leisa Reichelt (26:47):
Yeah.
Em (26:47):
The next page of this resource is talking about
gestalt language.
Vast majority, probably all ofour autistic kiddos are GLPs
Gestalt language processors.
It's one of the two ways thatpeople acquire and process,
language process the world.
It means that because, ofsensory processing system,
(27:09):
because of our cognitiveprocessing system, the way that
we learn, the way that we lookback on our experiences, and our
memories is this rich, sensoryand emotional, kind of recap.
So I've had this experience andI'm gonna log it away as a one
sentence thing.
I went to the beach and thishappened.
(27:31):
That's not what happens for us.
We log it away as a movie withsounds, with smells, with
feelings, with music, with whowas there, what happened, how
did I feel, what did the sandfeel like?
That's how the memory getsstored in our mind, and when we
think about it, that's where weare again.
I it means that if it was anupsetting memory, like going to
(27:54):
the beach something bad happenedand I got dragged under and
there was a jellyfish.
In my mind, when I think of thebeach, that's where I go.
That is what the beach is.
It's this collection offeelings.
It's this collection ofinteractions with these specific
people.
It can be a little bit hard tochange that perception of that
experience.
(28:15):
It can also make it reallytricky if that experience was
beautiful then you go back asecond time with your kid to the
beach and they go, this is notthe same as it was before.
I don't feel the same.
the weather's different, thewater feels different.
I don't feel as happy to behere, or it's not as good.
(28:36):
And I've seen kids who just feelbetrayed that was good that
time, but now it isn't.
Leisa Reichelt (28:43):
I can really relate to that.
I go back to the same holidayplaces'cause it was a really
good holiday the first time.
You're like, it was so great.
It's gonna be amazing again.
And then it's just not, you'relike, how?
What's happened?
Em (28:54):
yeah, because there's nothing the same in your mind.
we don't stay the same.
So, I suppose it's just usefulfor us to know and to talk about
that kind of stuff with our kidsIt's definitely a tricky thing
if your kid has gone, this iswhat it is and nothing can
change it.
it means there will be someprocessing and co-regulation
(29:14):
needed.
How does it relate to having ago?
It means that if I have had thissituation before where I did try
this thing, it didn't go well.
That is 100% what's gonna happenagain.
So why would I try it again?
I've done it before, it didn'twork.
This is my experience.
it's not that we areintentionally being stubborn or
(29:34):
difficult, it's that the waythat my brain has processed that
previous experience, the way itis lodged in there, at this
point I can't be flexible withit.
That's just how it is.
Leisa Reichelt (29:45):
It feels like there might be quite a connect
direction between that kind ofmemory and the nervous system
experience as well.
Em (29:53):
Of course.
Leisa Reichelt (29:54):
Yeah.
Em (29:55):
And, the intensity our nervous systems are often,
responding to the world aroundus.
Leisa Reichelt (30:03):
Hmm.
Em (30:03):
yeah, I think a lot of adults don't have it in the
front of their mind.
We hear that word, you know,overreacting.
Like you're just overreacting.
Like this drama queen.
This isn't a big deal.
My brain is just reacting to allthe things here and I can't
control the intensity and I'mprocessing it.
This is just how it is.
And it's pretty rough for me.
Sorry.
It's rough for you.
Leisa Reichelt (30:23):
Yeah.
That's helpful to understand allthe different aspects of what's
happening in a kid's mind whenthey're being confronted with
this, have a go situation.
They're looking at I don'treally know what's gonna happen.
I need more time to think aboutit.
I need to understand thelikelihood of success.
and, you know, how does thisrelate to experiences that I've
(30:45):
had in the past?
All of those things impact howpeople respond when they're
asked to give something a go.
Em (30:53):
Think adults are not good at validating the experiences of
kids.
The emotions of kids.
We go, yeah, that's what you'vegot but I think I'm right here,
so I'm going to decide this.
Leisa Reichelt (31:08):
hmm.
Em (31:09):
oh, I can see that there's something getting in the way
right now from making thisparticipation feel safe for you
or feel like it's gonna be okay.
Let me take a step back andwonder what's causing it.
How can I support you right nowso that this isn't a traumatic
experience and that's all.
And it's not even, how can I getyou to do the thing right now?
(31:31):
It's just can I support youright now to feel good about not
doing it?
Because you've got those otherkids as well who I have seen go,
I really want to, but I'm scaredand I don't like, I, I can't.
I really want to, but I can't.
And who are completelyoverwhelmed by the situation,
(31:53):
but they feel the pressure ofneeding to, feeling like they
should, feeling I'm gonna letpeople down, but I just can't
bring myself to feel safe aboutthis right now.
In that situation, the adultgoing, its really brave of you
right now to say, I don't feelsafe about this right now.
I'm not ready to try this thingtoday.
It doesn't feel safe in my body.
That's me looking after myself,and that is the side that the
(32:19):
adult should be taking in thatsituation versus going, you want
it, but you're scared.
I'm gonna get you there in thisdistressed state.
Yay.
Then you did it.
And look how distressed you are.
why are people going?
That's a reasonable outcomethere.
Leisa Reichelt (32:36):
Because a lot of professionals are telling them
that's what they should do,specifically in the context of
kids who are having thisexperience and thinking about
attending school.
Like what you just described issuch a dynamic that so many
parents who are listening willbe very familiar with right?
Where the kids are, like, Iwanna be at school, I don't
wanna be at home.
I wanna be at school, but I justcan't.
And a lot of the advice thatyou're given is just get them
(32:57):
here and then, you know, we'lllook after them, be fine from
now.
You know, just push through it.
Just, do it an hour a day orthis amount of time.
Em (33:06):
Whenever I talk about this, there's people going, you're
letting your kids just not justnever do any, your kids will
just never do anything.
if you don't push them, they'llnever do anything.
And I don't think any kid isneurologically wired to not do
things.
Kids are curious, kids are arebuilt
Leisa Reichelt (33:27):
to
Em (33:27):
learn.
Kids are built to wanna, youknow, to play, to learn, to do
all the things.
And if they're not doing that,I'm going, what is getting in
the way?
How burnt out are they that theyphysically can't do anything?
They just need that safety ofhome and the routine, the
predictability.
But in terms of people saying,you know, you have to push your
kids to get past their fear.
(33:48):
I had a psychologist point out,you know, the fear is when you
talk desensitisation to fear,its supposed to be about
unsubstantiated fear.
this is an illogical fear.
You don't have anything to fear.
So we are going to work ondesensitizing you.
That's one of the things I'veheard that isn't even what's
(34:08):
happening with school.
'cause it is a well-foundedfear.
They have reason, lot reasons tobe scared of, of being there.
If they go there and it'straumatic and they are put into
this prolonged state ofdysregulation, day in, day out,
adults who don't understand.
Expectations they can't meet,consequences, stress, anxiety,
(34:29):
masking, they're notoverreacting to that, they're
just reacting and it's kind oflike a minefield.
So I think, I've had kids atschool, now they are all at
home.
Been there and done that.
So if you're in a position whereyou're going, I can get my kid
to school.
They are there most of the time,and I'm watching their wellbeing
(34:52):
decline.
I don't know why anyone iswilling to pay that.
Leisa Reichelt (35:01):
Hmm.
Em (35:01):
That's very off the mark with what I'm hoping for my
kids.
You know?
Leisa Reichelt (35:04):
Hmm.
Em (35:05):
do know that a lot of people are not in the position to pull
their kids out of school becausethey need to be at work.
So we do continue to try andhelp school become as safe as we
can for our kids.
But I suppose just listen toyour instincts about it and if
you've got professionals sayingThey'll get used to it.
They'll get used to it.
is it that they get used to itor is it that they just get too
(35:25):
broken to be loud?
Leisa Reichelt (35:27):
In your resource, you talk about
ableism, and the effect ofableism on adults making these
demands of kids.
Can you explain that to folkswho may not be familiar with the
term?
What does it mean and how doesit show up and how is it
relevant to having a go?
Em (35:46):
ableism is a form of bias where being disabled, having a
disability is consideredinferior.
Less good, less desirable, lesspreferable, than somebody who is
not disabled and does not have adisability.
if we're describing something asbeing ableist, basically
(36:10):
something that is dismissing,invalidating disabled
experiences.
In terms of having a go, in mymind, ableism would be an adult
dismissing a neurodivergentkid's previous experiences, a
little bit like, That wasn'tbad.
It was fine.
(36:30):
You shouldn't have been upset.
Nothing was wrong.
This was a really good thing.
You should be feeling reallygood about it.
Incredibly dismissive of all thefeelings that that kid's got
happening in their body and intheir brain.
Um, it would be invalidating ordismissing a neurodivergent
kid's fluctuating capacity.
So your kid is gonna havedifferent amounts of mental
(36:53):
battery each day, each time atany given point.
And when they are really low onmental battery, doing the
things, having a go, trying thathard thing, finishing that task,
following that rule, meetingthat expectation is not
necessarily gonna be somethingthat they can do.
(37:14):
Understanding that about ourkids and going.
I can see today, this justdoesn't feel like a safe thing
for you.
Today, oh, we seem to have, beable to get on top of that
today.
So an ableist approach and thatwould just be, well, I saw you
do it before, so today I expectyou to do it again.
So that's something weunfortunately hear a lot.
That's, unintentionalwell-meaning for sure ableism.
Leisa Reichelt (37:41):
Yeah, it's, also about the way that when we're
talking about the kid at theprize giving ceremony, the adult
has made an assessment of safetyand gone, this is safe, you'll
be fine.
And they're imposing theirassessment of safety onto the
child rather than accepting thechild's assessment of how safe
(38:01):
they're feeling.
Em (38:03):
As well as their assessment of fun.
Leisa Reichelt (38:05):
Something that I've really observed is that
your own neurodivergence doesn'tnecessarily inoculate you from
being ableist when it comes toyour kid.
Em (38:15):
Not at all.
Leisa Reichelt (38:17):
For me, I was like, well, I have a
neurodivergent experience, sotherefore I surely I'm coming at
this from a place of aneurodivergent assessment of
things.
But then, my life and how I wassocialized is not necessarily
comparable to what my kids areexperiencing.
Em (38:32):
Yeah.
And we, you know, for especiallyof us who were late identified,
lived this life absorbing allthe stuff that we were told.
Anybody my age It wasn't anaffirming space to be brought up
in.
So there's a very good chancethat we've got ableist beliefs
(38:52):
in there, then when we recognizeour own neurodivergence, the
ableism is still there, it'sabout ourselves.
for example, me being not verygood at, respecting my own
fluctuating capacity, I do notdo a good job of that.
There's a lot of, I should beable to, I should be able to,
Leisa Reichelt (39:11):
Hmm.
Em (39:12):
I should not have to have breaks.
I should not have to X, Y, Z, Ishouldn't need this support.
And, and that's all things thatI have learned from a very young
age.
So it's just something that weneed to make conscious, I
suppose, and go, Am I kind ofjust wired to wanna say, and let
me think about it for a sec anddecide if that's thing for my
(39:32):
kid to hear right now.
Leisa Reichelt (39:34):
it just circles back to the theme you keep
returning to, which is listen toyour kid, ask them questions,
take what they're telling youseriously.
Em (39:42):
I think it's listening more to them and less to people
who've never met them who don'tlive that life as well.
Leisa Reichelt (39:48):
I love it.
That is very good.
I think we are probably at time,Thank you so much for spending
time with us today.
If folks want to find moreresources from you where's the
best place for us to find outmore?
Em (40:02):
Everything that I make gets put on Facebook.
You can search, NeuroWild onFacebook.
I am on Instagram too, but ifyou're looking for resources to
download PDFs to print off orsend, they're all on Teachers
Pay Teachers, which is a websiteyou can register for a free non
teacher account.
(40:22):
I do have a lot of freeresources on there, and you can
find me on there.
Leisa Reichelt (40:25):
Amazing.
Fantastic.
Well, I'm sure lots of peoplewill be rushing there to find
those resources to share witheducators in their lives.
Thanks, Em.
Really, really appreciate yourtime.
Em (40:37):
Thanks for having me.
Leisa Reichelt (40:39):
Well, I feel like there were so many nuggets
of insight in that conversationwith Em.
I hope you enjoyed it and had afew of your own light bulb
moments as well.
I've popped some links to all ofEm's resources in the episode
notes, along with links toSchool Can't Australia, of
course.
If you have found this podcasthelpful, please do take a moment
to subscribe, give us a ratingor a review.
These things really do help usto get the podcast in front of
(41:01):
more people who have SchoolCan't kids, and who haven't
found our community and all theinformation and support that we
share.
If you have some feedback for usor a suggestion for a future
topic or guest, or perhapsyou've been inspired to share
your own lived experience story,please drop me an email to
schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com Iwould love to hear from you.
(41:23):
If you are a parent or carer inAustralia and you are feeling
distressed, please remember youcan always call the Parent
Helpline in your state.
A link with the number to callis in the episode notes.
Victorian parents,unfortunately, you'll be only
able to do this until the 31stof October when the Victorian
government is choosing to shutdown their Parent Line, which is
very disappointing.
(41:44):
I put a link to a petition youcan sign to protest this in the
episode notes if you are soinclined.
Thanks again for listening.
We'll talk again soon.
Take care.
Hello and welcome to the School Can't
Experience Podcast.
I'm Leisa Reichelt, and thispodcast is brought to you by the
School Can't Australiacommunity.
Caring for a young person who isstruggling to attend school can
be a stressful and isolatingexperience, but you are not
alone.
Thousands of parents acrossAustralia and many more around
the world face similarchallenges and experiences every
(00:25):
day.
Today's very special guest is EmHammond.
You might know Em as NeuroWildonline.
Em is a speech therapist andshe's also a beautiful
illustrator who takes complexideas about neurodiversity and
makes them approachable and easyfor anyone to understand.
In this episode I wanted to talkto Em about one resource she's
(00:47):
created that really resonatedwith me, which was about how
asking our neurodivergent kidsto just'have a go' can be really
damaging.
I am definitely guilty of doingthis with my kids, and I'm sure
many of you have used the sametactic as well.
I hope you enjoy ourconversation.
thank you so much Em, forjoining us for our podcast
(01:08):
today.
I know a lot of people will bevery thrilled and excited to
hear from you because they'reavid followers of all of the
work that you put out on socialmedia, and we see that shared so
often in the School Can'tAustralia Facebook support group
for parents.
So super exciting to talk to youtoday.
Em (01:27):
Thanks for the invite.
Leisa Reichelt (01:28):
let's start, by just getting a little bit of
context for you.
Can you tell us a little bitabout yourself, your background?
What's your story?
Em (01:37):
I am a late diagnosed autistic and ADHDer, speech
therapist and illustrator, momto three neurodivergent kids,
and I guess I arrived herethrough my clinical work, as a
speechie, when I was new to theneurodiversity affirming
movement and shift, I keptcoming against this issue where
(02:03):
I would try to explain somethingfairly complex to a family or a
kid, or a client or a teacher.
And it was never simple.
45 minutes talking oneparticular topic, trying to
explain it, and then get to theend of the 45 minutes.
And still people don't seem tohave grasped I was getting at.
And I kind of just fell back onmy drawing skills, I suppose,
(02:28):
and just said, you know, I canthink of an analogy to explain
this, or an example, or a symbolor a visual to explain this
concept better and made thefirst one, I think it was, might
have been the double empathyproblem and was quite astounded
by how quickly people were ableto grasp that complex idea in a
(02:51):
tiny fraction of the time in 15seconds of reading.
And then they, they understandand go, ah,
Leisa Reichelt (02:56):
Hmm.
Em (02:57):
that just showed me in a really big way that that's what
I should be doing more of.
Because how many topics did Ineed to explain again and again
and again that I was findingtricky.
So that's led us to here and I'mstill doing it.
Leisa Reichelt (03:12):
Yeah.
it is incredible, isn't it?
And I guess it gives you so muchmore scale as well, ability to
impact so many more lives, whichis amazing.
Em (03:19):
It is.
And that was never the plan fromthe beginning.
It was just.
I need this in the, four wallsof my therapy sessions.
Leisa Reichelt (03:25):
Hmm.
Em (03:27):
when I saw how useful it was and I thought, well, I better
let other clinicians access thisresource as well.
And then it spread from there toparents and families and other
allied health clinicians and allover.
So that's been pretty wild.
Leisa Reichelt (03:43):
Something that I know you do a lot of work on is
trying to help support educatorsto understand neurodiversity
better and to think about how tosupport neurodiverse kids in an
educational context.
How did that become somethingthat you leaned into?
Em (04:04):
inevitable, I suppose, because the majority of kids
that I was supporting directlyclinically, were school aged.
when I sat down and reflected onthe best way to holistically
support these kids, I keptremembering that I see them for
(04:25):
such a short amount of time eachweek or each fortnight.
their family has got them forthe majority of the time, or
their teacher, so family andtheir teacher are the two people
who are gonna have the mostinfluence on this kid.
They have the most time withthem.
They are optimally placed to bereally neuro affirming.
(04:50):
Give them the support, make abig difference to this kid's
life and to their wellbeing.
Big picture.
I was less well placed to dothat, only having seen them for
a session a week or a session afortnight.
So it was an intentional kind ofthing to go, how can I try and
get this kid's parents and thiskid's teacher onto the same page
(05:13):
so that these affirming messagesthat I am communicating with
them and helping them build,helping them build up their
wellbeing and their sense ofself regard, that kind of thing.
How can I get that coming from afew more different angles for
this kid?
I'm gonna try and give them thebest shot to absorb this and to
feel good about themself andtheir brain.
So, I had to figure out ways toget that communication with
(05:36):
schools.
It doesn't work when you've gota clinician saying, this is what
I need you to do for this kid atschool.
And the teacher says, I don'tagree.
Leisa Reichelt (05:43):
Hmm.
Em (05:44):
I'm gonna do this because this is the way I've been
trained.
that doesn't help the kid.
And that's been a reallyuncomfortable and tricky thing
to navigate, because a lot ofteachers have not gone through
this same journey that I have toarrive at this neuro-affirming
lens.
They've done their own journeyof training and their own life
(06:05):
experiences and they've arrivedat a really different place to
me.
And it's hard to shift beliefsthat you've held for a really,
really long time.
And, if you are in spaces whereyour belief systems are just
being reinforced by everybodywho shares those, there's no
need to push outwards andchange.
So it it is tricky.
(06:27):
There are certainly lots ofteachers who kind of come and
ask questions and say, I wannabe affirming.
Help me.
it's obviously a lot easier towork with them than the ones who
say, I've been a teacher for 40years and I don't need you to
tell me how to run my class.
Thanks.
which also happens quite a lot.
Leisa Reichelt (06:43):
I think a lot of School Can't parents have been
in a room with educators andtheir allied health support
people and heard the educatorssay, well, that's great that you
have that point of view, butlike, you don't know about
education, you don't know abouteducating, you know, we'll,
we'll take your thoughts onboard and make our own
decisions.
And it is kind of dishearteningat times.
Em (07:06):
It makes me really upset a lot of the time whenever I have
to go to that space in my mindor into those conversations.
I did make a little bit of abreakthrough in my mind quite
recently about it.
A lot of clinicians showing upto schools, handing over
recommendations, goals, IEPoutlines, things like that.
(07:28):
Saying this kid needs thesesupports, All of that is based
on the thinking we have done,all of the learning we have
done, and we are not bringingteachers into our thinking.
We're not inviting them to dothat thinking on their own.
We are just giving them thingsto do.
Maybe legally they do have to dothem because we might get it
(07:48):
into an IEP, but I'm notconvinced that they're gonna do
them in an affirming way.
You know, it's gonna be fine.
We'll give this kid this set ofaccommodations.
But, they're presented in a waythat the kid is never gonna
wanna use them because they aregoing to be the center of
attention, or there's been anegative vibe about it, or, the
classroom isn't safe for it.
(08:09):
You know, lots of differentthings.
So we need to do the thinkingwith the teachers first before
we give them things to do,because thinking has to come
first.
The thinking informs the doing.
Leisa Reichelt (08:22):
It makes me think that in those situations
you're handing over the whatwithout giving the why.
What you say about, you know,you can have these
accommodations which go, ifyou're feeling dysregulated, you
can leave the classroom for 20minutes and go to this place.
But the way that it's done canmean that kids will never do
that because they don't wannadraw attention to themselves or
they don't feel safe in thewellbeing space, which is sadly
(08:42):
a thing too.
Em (08:43):
Yeah.
Or that the access to thesupports comes with conditions.
So you can have a break, butit's this many minutes at the
back of a classroom with thisparticular support, and then you
need to do this and come back
Leisa Reichelt (08:53):
My son used to be able to go to the wellbeing
space, the counselor space, butthe rule was you could only be
there for 20 minutes.
he was like, well, what's thepoint?
Because how will I know thatI'll feel better in 20 minutes,
and I know that I'm beingwatched and observed to make
sure that I'm not here in 20minutes time.
it was just more stressful thanit was helpful.
Em (09:11):
We had a situation where the teacher told the whole class
that a student could use fidgettools in the classroom if they
have a letter from their doctor.
Which, you know, really going,it's look at this child with
(09:33):
this medical problem and orillness or sickness that they
need permission from a doctor touse this versus it could, it
didn't have to happen that way.
no kid in there is like, I canbe seen with a fidget
Leisa Reichelt (09:46):
It's a symbol of being broken.
Em (09:48):
Yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (09:49):
Well, on behalf of all of us.
Thank you for doing the work.
Em, keep going.
We're, sending you all thesupport that we possibly can.
Let's change tack then.
I wanted to talk about having ago.
There was something about, poststhat you made a, a little while
ago would link to it so peoplecould, can see it on Facebook.
But it was just about thatwhole, like, oh, just have a go.
(10:12):
You know, you'll try it, it'llprobably be fine.
it just, my head was nodding offbecause I was like, that
happened to me all the time whenI was a kid.
And I have used it on my ownchild on many occasions as well.
Just the way that you broke itdown as to why, for particularly
our neurodiverse kiddos.
Having a go is not the littleask that it might sound like,
(10:34):
but it actually is much greaterdemand and often really
problematic.
I thought it was veryinsightful.
So I wonder, was there aparticular thing that triggered
you into making that, or haveyou just got a long list of
things to cover?
Em (10:49):
It was an end of year school night award ceremony, I think.
And it was a, I watched thechild, I didn't know, be sort of
encouraged, encouraged,encouraged to head up on the
stage and receive the award infront of this auditorium full of
people.
And it was really upsetting towatch, the number of adults who
(11:17):
didn't know.
I, noticed, everyone noticedwhat her body was doing in her
message, you know, she was veryclear about it, how
uncomfortable and upsetting anddistressing it was.
None of that was good enough tostop the adults encouraging,
encouraging, encouraging.
Because receiving award,receiving award for your
beautiful whatever, that's alovely positive thing.
(11:40):
You definitely need to come andhave this experience.
You're gonna love it.
It's a lovely positive thing.
And that projecting about thatexperience onto this kid when it
was very clearly to this wholeroom full of people, not a
lovely positive thing.
Receiving this award in front ofeverybody here was traumatic.
(12:00):
And I hate how most of theparents, everyone is going, oh,
she ended up getting onto thestage and getting her award.
This is a big win.
Yay.
You did it.
That was the outcome we wantedand we're happy about it.
We're gonna tell you that we'reso happy about it.
And thought that was so off themark for what should have
(12:22):
happened here for this kid?
And it was because of adultsprojecting and going, you know,
an adult looking at thatparticular situation or any
situation where you're sayinghave a go is often the adult has
appraised it as safe.
You are not going to get hurtgoing and having a go here.
There's terrible consequence onthe other side of your go.
(12:45):
I am going to push you into thisuncomfortable thing because
actually I think you're gonnaenjoy it.
Other kids your age seem toenjoy it, I enjoyed it when I
was your age or what have you.
I don't know about you, butthose kinds of situations that
are, you know, physically, sure,my body's fine, but my brain is
(13:08):
on fire.
This is, I'm burning here.
I'm going to think about itforever and it's going to be a
source of trauma forever, andI'm going to go over it and over
it again in my head.
That is the badness of it.
Sure my body's safe, but thatwas the thing I wanted to avoid.
(13:30):
because it does not help mecarrying that baggage moving
forward into any activity.
I wish I hadn't been put intothis situation right now.
And its tricky because a lot ofadults love the word resilience
and doing things that you don'tlike or doing things that you
are a bit scared of.
That's building resilience,isn't it?
You do need to be able to.
(13:52):
Give it a go, do those things.
And particularly in Australiawhere that is like a big part of
our culture is that we're gonnagive it go.
And that we are not that fussedabout much.
Um, easygoing.
I think it's just dismissive ofthose kids who are pushed into
(14:12):
those situations.
They do get that horribleexperience and then they get to
carry it and adults brush itoff.
Leisa Reichelt (14:18):
I think the risk and the damage are really
invisible in a lot of ways,aren't they?
But that doesn't make them notreal.
Em (14:24):
Not even invisible, you know, if I'm thinking of this
little one at this awardceremony, it was very visible,
but it's so easy for a room fullof people to dismiss that and
go, that's a silly childish,that's nothing to worry about.
with the have a go thing a lotof the time that is said to kids
when the adults have thoughtthat it's gonna be enjoyable,
Leisa Reichelt (14:44):
Hmm.
Em (14:44):
this is an extracurricular thing.
Just have a go.
Have a go at that game.
Have a go at that sport.
it's fun.
You're gonna think that it'sfun.
people have different ideas offun if your goal is for that
child to find fun, findenjoyment, they are gonna need
some measure of comfort andsafety to do that, first of all.
(15:05):
But if pushing them to, shutdown, break down meltdown, did
you achieve your goal?
in adult minds, they'rethinking.
My goal is for you to have fun,but actually it's just that you
participate.
Leisa Reichelt (15:19):
Yeah.
Em (15:20):
And maybe those two have been conflated
Leisa Reichelt (15:22):
Yeah, sometimes it's not about fun, it's just
that it's not that bad.
you'll go and do this, andyou'll discover that it's not
that bad, and then it will beokay for next time.
It's weird though, isn't it?
Because a lot of us have at somepoint in our life, had an
experience where we were anxiousabout doing something and then
we did it, and then it was goodor it was fine.
And that does happen sometimes.
when you want good things foryour child, you don't want them
(15:44):
to be held back fromopportunities, so you're like,
I'll give them a little nudge,and then they might go, oh, I'm
really glad that I did that,even though I was a bit scared.
Em (15:55):
I think it is just about tuning in to your kid.
That's all.
I think.
you are the parent, you're theexpert on your kid.
you are collecting experienceswith them to know what you are
thinking they're gonna react tosomething.
What sort of prompting, if any,is effective or really not.
(16:16):
You have tried things before.
You've seen what's happened.
if you have a kid who is reallynervous at new things, but you
know, with the scaffolding, theencouragement with the mom's
here with you, we can give it ago.
We can also leave if you like.
We're just gonna give it 10minutes, something like that,
and then circle back after andgo, are you glad that we stayed?
(16:37):
was that a good thing?
Was it helpful that I did X, Y,and Z?
Yes or no?
Do you think you might wannacome back?
I think parents sitting therewaiting to go.
Aha.
I was right.
See, I think that's unhelpfulbecause your kid isn't a robot.
You know what I mean?
Like they've, they've gotdifferent things happening at
every single
Leisa Reichelt (16:57):
Hmm.
Em (16:57):
day of their life, different situations, different mental
capacity, different emotionalstate.
They're never gonna be exactlythe same at any different time.
So just going, this is what I'mnoticing.
I'm noticing you've got some bigemotions today.
I'm noticing your energy seemspretty low today.
I'm noticing you're finding X,Y, and Z tricky.
On that day, I would not bepushing my kid to do anything.
(17:20):
I'd be
Leisa Reichelt (17:21):
Hmm.
Em (17:21):
oh, you are having a bit of a time.
Normal everyday things that areoften easy for you are tricky
today.
That's not a day that I'm goingto give you gentle encouragement
because I'm asking you to spendmental energy spoons that you
just don't have.
On a separate occasion thatkid's had a great day and I'm
(17:42):
like, Ooh, there's thisopportunity this afternoon for
blah.
And they go, oh no, I don'tthink so.
And I'm like, oh, you've had agreat day.
I can tell your brain has gotquite a lot of flexibility in it
in this moment.
'cause I've just watched how youcollaborated with your sibling
and problem solving and reallypositive.
Beautiful.
What about if here's youropportunity, here's your gentle
encouragement.
(18:02):
If he says no, it's like fairenough.
do, you know what I mean?
It's just
Leisa Reichelt (18:05):
Yeah.
Em (18:06):
some days that opportunity will be taken up
Leisa Reichelt (18:09):
Yeah.
Em (18:09):
other days they might be going, no.
And I think you don't wanna getstuck one way or the other.
Being really one way or theother and going, I'm just gonna
stay here, is not the waybecause your kid doesn't stay
there.
Leisa Reichelt (18:24):
So you just really gotta observe the
feedback that you're getting andadjust to that.
Em (18:29):
I would be asking them after the fact if you have encouraged
them to have a go and they endup having a go check in after
and go, you know, was thathelpful that I, I told you you
could do it and then I believedin you.
Was that the, was that, the kindof belief that you needed from
me in that moment.
You're glad I did it.
Great.
I can do that again next time ifyou need.
Some kids do need that championAnd I'm gonna negate your,
(18:52):
yourself doubt.
'cause I know you need me toother kids and this is probably
more where I would be, would beif I'm gonna tell you that I
can't do this.
I'm not comfortable doing thisright now.
Don't tell me I can.
I have got a whole list ofreasons why I can't, and they're
pretty solid.
And the bigger one is that Idon't want to, right now
Leisa Reichelt (19:12):
Hmm,
Em (19:12):
I don't want to show everybody in this room that I
can't meet this expectation infront of them like everyone
else.
Leisa Reichelt (19:20):
hmm.
Em (19:21):
I've had that happen and just have a go.
And I did and it was horrifying.
Leisa Reichelt (19:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Em (19:27):
that did not make me stronger.
That just, it's a dreadfulmemory.
So
Leisa Reichelt (19:31):
I was hoping that we might just be able to go
down through some of thoseparticular aspects of our
Neurodiverse kids that make thehaving a go thing particularly
tricky.
And I think you did a reallybeautiful job of that in the
drawings that you did.
Em (19:46):
So it's a pretty shortish resource with images made for
parents, called Reasons WhyAutistic Kids May Not Be Okay
With Having A Go.
So people say that knowledge ispower, but for a lot of autistic
kids, and neuro divergent kids,knowledge is comfort.
We like predictability.
We like to know all the factsbefore we can decide on our
(20:09):
level of participation.
I suppose.
it's just getting our brainprepared.
One of the most stressful thingsis being thrown in the deep end.
That is something that a lot ofadults consider to be a useful
learning strategy to just plonkus in and let us flounder about
(20:31):
and hopefully swim.
That can be really traumatic fora lot of us.
We prefer to know what the taskis, what all the steps are, and
we want to believe that we'regonna do a good job of following
the steps, being able to meetthe expectations, because why
would I involve myself insomething that I think I'm gonna
(20:54):
do poorly.
Which takes us to the nextimage, which says that many
autistics are perfectionists.
We often are expecting a hundredpercent success from ourselves
when we do something.
a lot of that probably comesfrom trauma.
in educational settings and,just the way we were raised and
what beliefs and values we haveabsorbed from our families.
(21:16):
A lot of us are kind of sittingin that perfectionist, rejection
sensitivity dysphoria, maskingstate, and also fawning.
So trying to people please,we've got those things that are
very intertwined and basicallymean that we're not comfortable
making a mistake in front of acrowd.
Leisa Reichelt (21:35):
I was gonna say that really strong sense of
being perceived all the timethat you can't do something and
not feel the gaze of otherpeople upon you.
Em (21:44):
For sure.
And you know, it's aboutperceived when our skill levels
are fluctuating.
For example, a lot ofneurodivergent people are top of
their field, right?
A lot of the top of every fieldyou are looking there, they're
neuro neurodivergent peoplewho've hyper-focused and worked
really hard and gotten there,being perceived as obviously a
(22:06):
part of that.
But, it's, I have chosen to beperceived in this space because
I have reason to believe I do agood job of it.
This is why I'm gonna leteverybody see my resources is
because I have worked reallyhard that there are no mistakes
in them.
I'm not gonna make anybody mad.
they're based on research,they're drawn well, I'm gonna
(22:26):
put it out into the worldbecause I'm reasonably confident
that that's gonna be wellreceived.
and that's the only reason I'mdoing it.
And I'm not gonna put it outinto the world if I don't think
that.
And it's the same with, having ago.
I'm not gonna have a go unless Ifeel like it's gonna go well.
I don't think that this gymclass is gonna go well and I
don't wanna perform this flip infront of people because I've
never been able to do it beforeand now everyone's gonna watch.
(22:51):
So the idea of doing somethingbadly in front of people is
enough to derail.
It is big dysregulation.
I've got big anxiety therealready haven't even gone to the
thing.
And now I'm thinking this iswhat's going to happen and I'm
basing that off all of myprevious experiences that this
adult who's telling me to havego doesn't know about.
(23:14):
They don't know all the othertimes that I've been in a
similar situation and it wentbadly.
So they're telling me to have ago and I've got reasons to know
it's not gonna go well.
And it's not me being, I'm notcatastrophizing, I'm just being
realistic here because I've gotthis catalog of experiences.
They get dismissed when it'scoming from a kid.
The says, nah, I know better.
I'm an adult, you'll be fine.
(23:37):
The next slide I sort ofmentioned that it says many of
us are logical and analytical.
We're weighing up the facts,we're weighing up the risks.
If I can't make all of thosethings stuck up in a favorable
way to me getting this thingdone, then I'm not gonna do it.
Leisa Reichelt (23:54):
Hmm.
Em (23:54):
It's not even that I wouldn't do it because I
would've done it because I wantto please my adults.
I definitely would've done it.
historically did go quitepoorly.
that is still a horrific memoryin my mind to this day.
I would have loved to able optin or opt out of that particular
(24:14):
that was supposed to just befun.
Wasn't fun, was traumatic.
I knew it would be, and then itwas.
It's not, like what's thatphrase where you are, saying
it's going to go badly, so thenit does go badly.
Leisa Reichelt (24:27):
Like a self-fulfilling prophecy
Em (24:28):
the
Leisa Reichelt (24:29):
Hmm.
Em (24:30):
if it is based on my cataloging of my experiences,
it's not an emotional thing.
It's just a bunch of facts to mymind.
Leisa Reichelt (24:39):
Yeah.
Em (24:39):
so I think you are gonna know your kid.
If you do have a kid who ispretty good at catastrophizing,
then you going to have a thinkabout those other sorts of
things that we chatted aboutearlier.
About how, what kind of supportwould you like from me in this
moment, because you have beenknown to focus on this tiny
little bit that went poorly, butthe rest of it was so good.
(25:02):
That might be the space thatyou're gonna work on with your
kid.
Leisa Reichelt (25:05):
Oh, you're making me think of so many.
Like, when I was a kid, I woulddo the thing where I'd go, okay,
every logical thing tells methat this, you know, I'm not
gonna turn up to gymnastics andsuddenly be able to be graceful
at walking on a balance beam oreven staying on a balance beam.
Em (25:21):
I think for a lot of our kids as well, they often just
need more time.
So for example, you might have akid who needs to watch something
a few times, and if you were toplonk them into it at the
beginning, have it go notespecially well, then that gets
(25:45):
written off in their mind.
Leisa Reichelt (25:46):
Hmm.
Em (25:47):
I won't do that.
and that's not something I canovercome and I'll not be going
back versus letting themapproach it at their own pace
and going, I'm not comfortabledoing this, but I'm comfortable
doing this much, I'm comfortabledoing this much and building up
those small wins, those smallpositive experiences and going,
you let me know when you feellike you wanna give this a go,
(26:11):
we can try and help, you know,and this is on your terms
because you are the one in yourbrain, in your body right now.
And I'm not, and I can tell you,Hey, I think you might be really
good at that.
But some kids will appreciatethat and others won't.
So just ask your kid how theyfeel when you say those sorts of
(26:31):
things.
Because if they're like, Iactually love when you believe
in me and say I can do it,great.
I can do more of that.
If they're like, it just makesme feel like you don't get it.
You just think everything'seasy.
It's not easy for me.
Fair enough.
I didn't know.
Now I know.
Don't assume.
That's what I think.
Leisa Reichelt (26:47):
Yeah.
Em (26:47):
The next page of this resource is talking about
gestalt language.
Vast majority, probably all ofour autistic kiddos are GLPs
Gestalt language processors.
It's one of the two ways thatpeople acquire and process,
language process the world.
It means that because, ofsensory processing system,
(27:09):
because of our cognitiveprocessing system, the way that
we learn, the way that we lookback on our experiences, and our
memories is this rich, sensoryand emotional, kind of recap.
So I've had this experience andI'm gonna log it away as a one
sentence thing.
I went to the beach and thishappened.
(27:31):
That's not what happens for us.
We log it away as a movie withsounds, with smells, with
feelings, with music, with whowas there, what happened, how
did I feel, what did the sandfeel like?
That's how the memory getsstored in our mind, and when we
think about it, that's where weare again.
I it means that if it was anupsetting memory, like going to
(27:54):
the beach something bad happenedand I got dragged under and
there was a jellyfish.
In my mind, when I think of thebeach, that's where I go.
That is what the beach is.
It's this collection offeelings.
It's this collection ofinteractions with these specific
people.
It can be a little bit hard tochange that perception of that
experience.
(28:15):
It can also make it reallytricky if that experience was
beautiful then you go back asecond time with your kid to the
beach and they go, this is notthe same as it was before.
I don't feel the same.
the weather's different, thewater feels different.
I don't feel as happy to behere, or it's not as good.
(28:36):
And I've seen kids who just feelbetrayed that was good that
time, but now it isn't.
Leisa Reichelt (28:43):
I can really relate to that.
I go back to the same holidayplaces'cause it was a really
good holiday the first time.
You're like, it was so great.
It's gonna be amazing again.
And then it's just not, you'relike, how?
What's happened?
Em (28:54):
yeah, because there's nothing the same in your mind.
we don't stay the same.
So, I suppose it's just usefulfor us to know and to talk about
that kind of stuff with our kidsIt's definitely a tricky thing
if your kid has gone, this iswhat it is and nothing can
change it.
it means there will be someprocessing and co-regulation
(29:14):
needed.
How does it relate to having ago?
It means that if I have had thissituation before where I did try
this thing, it didn't go well.
That is 100% what's gonna happenagain.
So why would I try it again?
I've done it before, it didn'twork.
This is my experience.
it's not that we areintentionally being stubborn or
(29:34):
difficult, it's that the waythat my brain has processed that
previous experience, the way itis lodged in there, at this
point I can't be flexible withit.
That's just how it is.
Leisa Reichelt (29:45):
It feels like there might be quite a connect
direction between that kind ofmemory and the nervous system
experience as well.
Em (29:53):
Of course.
Leisa Reichelt (29:54):
Yeah.
Em (29:55):
And, the intensity our nervous systems are often,
responding to the world aroundus.
Leisa Reichelt (30:03):
Hmm.
Em (30:03):
yeah, I think a lot of adults don't have it in the
front of their mind.
We hear that word, you know,overreacting.
Like you're just overreacting.
Like this drama queen.
This isn't a big deal.
My brain is just reacting to allthe things here and I can't
control the intensity and I'mprocessing it.
This is just how it is.
And it's pretty rough for me.
Sorry.
It's rough for you.
Leisa Reichelt (30:23):
Yeah.
That's helpful to understand allthe different aspects of what's
happening in a kid's mind whenthey're being confronted with
this, have a go situation.
They're looking at I don'treally know what's gonna happen.
I need more time to think aboutit.
I need to understand thelikelihood of success.
and, you know, how does thisrelate to experiences that I've
(30:45):
had in the past?
All of those things impact howpeople respond when they're
asked to give something a go.
Em (30:53):
Think adults are not good at validating the experiences of
kids.
The emotions of kids.
We go, yeah, that's what you'vegot but I think I'm right here,
so I'm going to decide this.
Leisa Reichelt (31:08):
hmm.
Em (31:09):
oh, I can see that there's something getting in the way
right now from making thisparticipation feel safe for you
or feel like it's gonna be okay.
Let me take a step back andwonder what's causing it.
How can I support you right nowso that this isn't a traumatic
experience and that's all.
And it's not even, how can I getyou to do the thing right now?
(31:31):
It's just can I support youright now to feel good about not
doing it?
Because you've got those otherkids as well who I have seen go,
I really want to, but I'm scaredand I don't like, I, I can't.
I really want to, but I can't.
And who are completelyoverwhelmed by the situation,
(31:53):
but they feel the pressure ofneeding to, feeling like they
should, feeling I'm gonna letpeople down, but I just can't
bring myself to feel safe aboutthis right now.
In that situation, the adultgoing, its really brave of you
right now to say, I don't feelsafe about this right now.
I'm not ready to try this thingtoday.
It doesn't feel safe in my body.
That's me looking after myself,and that is the side that the
(32:19):
adult should be taking in thatsituation versus going, you want
it, but you're scared.
I'm gonna get you there in thisdistressed state.
Yay.
Then you did it.
And look how distressed you are.
why are people going?
That's a reasonable outcomethere.
Leisa Reichelt (32:36):
Because a lot of professionals are telling them
that's what they should do,specifically in the context of
kids who are having thisexperience and thinking about
attending school.
Like what you just described issuch a dynamic that so many
parents who are listening willbe very familiar with right?
Where the kids are, like, Iwanna be at school, I don't
wanna be at home.
I wanna be at school, but I justcan't.
And a lot of the advice thatyou're given is just get them
(32:57):
here and then, you know, we'lllook after them, be fine from
now.
You know, just push through it.
Just, do it an hour a day orthis amount of time.
Em (33:06):
Whenever I talk about this, there's people going, you're
letting your kids just not justnever do any, your kids will
just never do anything.
if you don't push them, they'llnever do anything.
And I don't think any kid isneurologically wired to not do
things.
Kids are curious, kids are arebuilt
Leisa Reichelt (33:27):
to
Em (33:27):
learn.
Kids are built to wanna, youknow, to play, to learn, to do
all the things.
And if they're not doing that,I'm going, what is getting in
the way?
How burnt out are they that theyphysically can't do anything?
They just need that safety ofhome and the routine, the
predictability.
But in terms of people saying,you know, you have to push your
kids to get past their fear.
(33:48):
I had a psychologist point out,you know, the fear is when you
talk desensitisation to fear,its supposed to be about
unsubstantiated fear.
this is an illogical fear.
You don't have anything to fear.
So we are going to work ondesensitizing you.
That's one of the things I'veheard that isn't even what's
(34:08):
happening with school.
'cause it is a well-foundedfear.
They have reason, lot reasons tobe scared of, of being there.
If they go there and it'straumatic and they are put into
this prolonged state ofdysregulation, day in, day out,
adults who don't understand.
Expectations they can't meet,consequences, stress, anxiety,
(34:29):
masking, they're notoverreacting to that, they're
just reacting and it's kind oflike a minefield.
So I think, I've had kids atschool, now they are all at
home.
Been there and done that.
So if you're in a position whereyou're going, I can get my kid
to school.
They are there most of the time,and I'm watching their wellbeing
(34:52):
decline.
I don't know why anyone iswilling to pay that.
Leisa Reichelt (35:01):
Hmm.
Em (35:01):
That's very off the mark with what I'm hoping for my
kids.
You know?
Leisa Reichelt (35:04):
Hmm.
Em (35:05):
do know that a lot of people are not in the position to pull
their kids out of school becausethey need to be at work.
So we do continue to try andhelp school become as safe as we
can for our kids.
But I suppose just listen toyour instincts about it and if
you've got professionals sayingThey'll get used to it.
They'll get used to it.
is it that they get used to itor is it that they just get too
(35:25):
broken to be loud?
Leisa Reichelt (35:27):
In your resource, you talk about
ableism, and the effect ofableism on adults making these
demands of kids.
Can you explain that to folkswho may not be familiar with the
term?
What does it mean and how doesit show up and how is it
relevant to having a go?
Em (35:46):
ableism is a form of bias where being disabled, having a
disability is consideredinferior.
Less good, less desirable, lesspreferable, than somebody who is
not disabled and does not have adisability.
if we're describing something asbeing ableist, basically
(36:10):
something that is dismissing,invalidating disabled
experiences.
In terms of having a go, in mymind, ableism would be an adult
dismissing a neurodivergentkid's previous experiences, a
little bit like, That wasn'tbad.
It was fine.
(36:30):
You shouldn't have been upset.
Nothing was wrong.
This was a really good thing.
You should be feeling reallygood about it.
Incredibly dismissive of all thefeelings that that kid's got
happening in their body and intheir brain.
Um, it would be invalidating ordismissing a neurodivergent
kid's fluctuating capacity.
So your kid is gonna havedifferent amounts of mental
(36:53):
battery each day, each time atany given point.
And when they are really low onmental battery, doing the
things, having a go, trying thathard thing, finishing that task,
following that rule, meetingthat expectation is not
necessarily gonna be somethingthat they can do.
(37:14):
Understanding that about ourkids and going.
I can see today, this justdoesn't feel like a safe thing
for you.
Today, oh, we seem to have, beable to get on top of that
today.
So an ableist approach and thatwould just be, well, I saw you
do it before, so today I expectyou to do it again.
So that's something weunfortunately hear a lot.
That's, unintentionalwell-meaning for sure ableism.
Leisa Reichelt (37:41):
Yeah, it's, also about the way that when we're
talking about the kid at theprize giving ceremony, the adult
has made an assessment of safetyand gone, this is safe, you'll
be fine.
And they're imposing theirassessment of safety onto the
child rather than accepting thechild's assessment of how safe
(38:01):
they're feeling.
Em (38:03):
As well as their assessment of fun.
Leisa Reichelt (38:05):
Something that I've really observed is that
your own neurodivergence doesn'tnecessarily inoculate you from
being ableist when it comes toyour kid.
Em (38:15):
Not at all.
Leisa Reichelt (38:17):
For me, I was like, well, I have a
neurodivergent experience, sotherefore I surely I'm coming at
this from a place of aneurodivergent assessment of
things.
But then, my life and how I wassocialized is not necessarily
comparable to what my kids areexperiencing.
Em (38:32):
Yeah.
And we, you know, for especiallyof us who were late identified,
lived this life absorbing allthe stuff that we were told.
Anybody my age It wasn't anaffirming space to be brought up
in.
So there's a very good chancethat we've got ableist beliefs
(38:52):
in there, then when we recognizeour own neurodivergence, the
ableism is still there, it'sabout ourselves.
for example, me being not verygood at, respecting my own
fluctuating capacity, I do notdo a good job of that.
There's a lot of, I should beable to, I should be able to,
Leisa Reichelt (39:11):
Hmm.
Em (39:12):
I should not have to have breaks.
I should not have to X, Y, Z, Ishouldn't need this support.
And, and that's all things thatI have learned from a very young
age.
So it's just something that weneed to make conscious, I
suppose, and go, Am I kind ofjust wired to wanna say, and let
me think about it for a sec anddecide if that's thing for my
(39:32):
kid to hear right now.
Leisa Reichelt (39:34):
it just circles back to the theme you keep
returning to, which is listen toyour kid, ask them questions,
take what they're telling youseriously.
Em (39:42):
I think it's listening more to them and less to people
who've never met them who don'tlive that life as well.
Leisa Reichelt (39:48):
I love it.
That is very good.
I think we are probably at time,Thank you so much for spending
time with us today.
If folks want to find moreresources from you where's the
best place for us to find outmore?
Em (40:02):
Everything that I make gets put on Facebook.
You can search, NeuroWild onFacebook.
I am on Instagram too, but ifyou're looking for resources to
download PDFs to print off orsend, they're all on Teachers
Pay Teachers, which is a websiteyou can register for a free non
teacher account.
(40:22):
I do have a lot of freeresources on there, and you can
find me on there.
Leisa Reichelt (40:25):
Amazing.
Fantastic.
Well, I'm sure lots of peoplewill be rushing there to find
those resources to share witheducators in their lives.
Thanks, Em.
Really, really appreciate yourtime.
Em (40:37):
Thanks for having me.
Leisa Reichelt (40:39):
Well, I feel like there were so many nuggets
of insight in that conversationwith Em.
I hope you enjoyed it and had afew of your own light bulb
moments as well.
I've popped some links to all ofEm's resources in the episode
notes, along with links toSchool Can't Australia, of
course.
If you have found this podcasthelpful, please do take a moment
to subscribe, give us a ratingor a review.
These things really do help usto get the podcast in front of
(41:01):
more people who have SchoolCan't kids, and who haven't
found our community and all theinformation and support that we
share.
If you have some feedback for usor a suggestion for a future
topic or guest, or perhapsyou've been inspired to share
your own lived experience story,please drop me an email to
schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com Iwould love to hear from you.
(41:23):
If you are a parent or carer inAustralia and you are feeling
distressed, please remember youcan always call the Parent
Helpline in your state.
A link with the number to callis in the episode notes.
Victorian parents,unfortunately, you'll be only
able to do this until the 31stof October when the Victorian
government is choosing to shutdown their Parent Line, which is
very disappointing.
(41:44):
I put a link to a petition youcan sign to protest this in the
episode notes if you are soinclined.
Thanks again for listening.
We'll talk again soon.
Take care.
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