October 13, 2025 • 46 mins
In this episode of the School Can't Experience Podcast, host Leisa Reichelt is joined by Esther Jones, a UK-based parent and unschooling advocate and author of The Parent's Handbook to Unschooling Yourself.
Esther shares her personal journey of unschooling her three children and the principles behind the philosophy. We explore how parents can inadvertently present the biggest challenges to unschooling success, the importance of self-compassion, and how to foster an individualised, supportive and engaging learning environment.
Discover practical advice and insights on transitioning from traditional schooling to an unschooling approach, and learn about the significance of building a positive relationship with your child.
00:00 Welcome
01:05 Meet Esther Jones: A Journey to Unschooling
03:22 Defining Unschooling: A Philosophical Approach
05:32 The Challenges and Benefits of Unschooling
08:15 Navigating Parental Fears and Triggers
10:45 Embracing Enoughness and Connection
18:49 The Role of Curiosity and Natural Learning
23:52 Mindfulness in Action
24:24 Learning Through Conversations
27:50 Navigating Triggers and Self-Compassion
30:14 The Role of the Parent in Unschooling
36:10 Transitioning from School to Unschooling
42:52 Wrapping Up and Resources
Recommended Resources
- Esther Jones’ Website - https://www.esther-jones.com/
- Save Victorian Parent Helpline Petition: https://www.megaphone.org.au/petitions/save-parentline
- School Can’t Australia Facebook Community - https://www.facebook.com/groups/schoolphobiaschoolrefusalaustralia
- Make a donation to School Can’t Australia - https://www.schoolcantaustralia.com.au/get-involved
If you are a parent of carer in Australia and experiencing distress, please call Lifeline on 13 11 14 or contact the Parent Help Line. - https://kidshelpline.com.au/parents/issues/how-parentline-can-help-you
You can contact us to volunteer to share your School Can't story or some feedback via email on schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com
Disclaimer
The content of this podcast is based on personal lived experiences and is shared for informational and storytelling purposes only. It should not be treated as medical, psychological, or professional advice under any circumstances. If you have concerns about your health or well-being, please seek guidance from a doctor, therapist, or other qualified professional.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leisa Reichelt (00:05):
Hello and welcome to the School Can't
Experience Podcast.
I'm Leisa Reichelt, and thispodcast is brought to you by the
School Can't Australiacommunity.
Caring for a young person who isstruggling to attend school can
be a stressful and isolatingexperience, but you are not
alone.
Thousands of parents acrossAustralia and many more around
the world face similarchallenges and experiences every
(00:27):
day.
If you are home educating orsuspect that might potentially
be in your future, you are goingto love this episode.
We are joined by Esther Jones, aUK based parent who has
unschooled her own children andnow supports parents around the
world with their own unschoolingexperiences through courses, her
podcast, and a new book calledThe Parents' Guide to
(00:49):
Unschooling Yourself.
Esther really helps usunderstand how we as adults play
a really crucial role in ouryoung people's journey and how
our mindset and our wellness iscritical to their success.
I hope you enjoy ourconversation.
Alright, Esther Jones, thank youso much for joining us for our
podcast today.
Esther Jones (01:10):
Thank you for inviting me.
Leisa Reichelt (01:11):
I was very excited to have the opportunity
to have a bit of a read throughyour book, and found it so,
thought provoking and sohelpful, certainly for the
journey that I'm on.
So I'm really looking forward totalking to you more about that
now.
But before we get into that, whydon't you tell us a little bit
about yourself, Esther, and yourjourney that you've been on.
Esther Jones (01:33):
I have three children.
They're 19, 17, and 13.
We live in the UK now, but welived in Spain until about six
years ago, just before thepandemic.
Our journey to unschooling.
I had always imagined we'd doschool.
I had never thought aboutanything else, I realized when
my eldest son, who was laterdiagnosed autistic, PDA, when he
was very young, I realized thatmainstream wasn't going to be a
(01:56):
good fit.
He, you know, rhythm of his owndrum.
He just, wouldn't takedirection.
He just needed to do it his ownway.
He was frequently overwhelmed bylots of people.
And so, he and his youngerbrother went to a very gentle
preschool, which was lovely forthem.
That worked really well.
And then when he reached agesix, they went to a very
(02:16):
alternative school.
And, we did that for a fewyears, but it just never worked.
It just was still too much.
It was overwhelming.
It was, you know, and I couldnever really work out what was
wrong.
And so finally we just said, ah,let's just try and do something
different.
Or I think, I thought I'd findthe perfect school.
We'll take them out.
And so for about a year or so,it's like, there is somewhere, I
(02:37):
know there's somewhere that willwork for us.
And of course there wasn't,right?
But after a year I thought, oh,actually.
Hmm, this works.
This is okay.
And by that time, I'd comeacross the word unschooling.
So I thought there's a word forthis.
This isn't something I'veinvented.
It's a thing.
And so then I started to learnmore and appreciate more and to
see more.
(02:58):
and then my daughter who's now13, never went to school'cause
that was when she was justpreschool age.
So that's how we ended up here.
Leisa Reichelt (03:07):
That's fantastic.
So the book you've written isabout unschooling, but it's a
handbook for parents to thinkabout how to unschool
themselves, Or deschoolthemselves?
Esther Jones (03:19):
We could use either word.
Leisa Reichelt (03:21):
Yeah.
Why don't we start with somedefinitions, like when you're
talking about unschooling, Whatdo you mean by that?
Esther Jones (03:29):
In the broadest terms, we could talk about it
being about our children beingself-directed in their
education.
However, I think any parent whoeven just dips a toe in here
goes, oh, hang on a moment.
This is so much more thaneducation.
Learning is a part of it.
If we just go back for a moment,it's really based on the premise
that all human beings, we'reborn to learn.
We're born to feelself-actualized.
(03:50):
We're born to lead meaningfullives.
We are each unique.
We've got a different way ofbeing in the world.
Unschooling is saying, okay.
Who's my child?
I want to discover my child.
I'm not gonna tell my child howto be, I don't want them to seek
approval.
I want them to be the personthat they're here to be.
And so what can that look like?
So that's really the startingpoint of it.
(04:12):
It's not where most peoplestart, it's not where we
started.
But that really is the premiseof it.
Can we accompany our children ina way that they have agency,
that they can learn what itmeans to be themselves?
What does it look like to movethrough the world, to navigate
life in a way that's meaningfulfor them, in a way that keeps
them safe, in a way that keepsthem aligned with who they are.
(04:36):
So that's kind of my broadestdefinition of what unschooling
is.
Leisa Reichelt (04:40):
And so it's basically like a philosophical
approach to home education.
Is that how you mightcharacterize
Esther Jones (04:47):
I put it in the book actually, that my son, my
middle son, I once said, what doyou think of the word
unschooling?
He said.
Should I just call it living?
Really?
Oh, you're so right.
And that's kind of the keyreally, how can we live all
together in this community thatis our family and in the wider
community in a way that we arelearning as we go.
So yes, it is an alternative.
(05:09):
I guess you could call it aphilosophy.
It's quite an intentional way oflife.
So sort of living intentionally,I would call it.
Leisa Reichelt (05:16):
I think you hinted before at the idea that
there are some people who cometo home education and
unschooling because they have aphilosophy, a belief in a way of
life that they
Esther Jones (05:29):
mm,
Leisa Reichelt (05:29):
are choosing for themselves and for their
families.
Most of the people who arelistening to this will come to
it through trauma.
Esther Jones (05:38):
yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (05:38):
come
Esther Jones (05:39):
Absolutely.
Leisa Reichelt (05:39):
through trying to make school work, failing to
make school work.
And then, you know, so manypeople have said, I didn't
choose home education.
It was like the absolute lastresort.
Part of my journey then was tocome to discover unschooling and
go, well actually, maybe thereis a lot of good in this
approach.
(06:00):
Tell us a little bit about whywould we do this?
What's the benefits of thisapproach?
Esther Jones (06:04):
Well, I love how you've just described that.
I think that's such a commonthread.
It was certainly mine.
The way that it unfolded for me,and I'm gonna say the vast
majority of parents I work withhave neurodivergent children or
children who simply can't doschool.
It's too much for them.
They're anxious, they're inburnout.
for whatever reason, this parenthas had to go, hang on a minute.
(06:27):
We've got to find something elsefor their mental health.
For our mental health.
And so as you say, you've had togo, okay, help.
Here we are at home.
Now what do we do?
Then eventually there's that,oh, okay, maybe this can work
for us.
That's generally the journeythat people make.
And they do come at it with alot of trauma.
But there's something reallyinteresting in this, I think
(06:47):
you've spoken to Naomi Fisher,right?
So she talks about the canary inthe coal mine.
These children who cannot doschool, being the ones putting
their hand up and going.
This doesn't work.
This is not a good system forchildren.
Generally speaking.
Some children may thrive, butfor many children, it's not a
great system.
And so these children whoabsolutely cannot do it, force
(07:09):
us into a space and they forceus to be courageous, more
open-minded to think aboutthings we would never have
thought about otherwise.
And so we're put into thishorribly uncomfortable place
that can feel terrible at thebeginning and absolutely filled
with trauma and a sense of whowe are as a parent, and that
doesn't feel good, and our childwho seems to be failing and all
(07:32):
these things.
Right?
But then when we say, okay, herewe are, and that's our story so
far, if we're able to say, whatdo we want our story to be going
forward?
What can this be?
I think that's when we go, ah,hang on a minute.
Yes, I can see some value here.
And then as we start to walkthat path, that's when it really
(07:53):
opens up and our learning andour growth is incredible if
we're open to it.
If we're open to seeing ourchild and allowing our child to
challenge all of our assumptionsabout so many things, But we
have to kind of allow that
Leisa Reichelt (08:11):
In the introduction to the book, you
say children are rarely thestumbling block to learning out
of school.
The challenges that arise arefar more likely to be all about
the parents, and I have to saythat has also been my lived
experience.
Esther Jones (08:26):
Mine too.
Leisa Reichelt (08:27):
Why is this so challenging for us?
Where are these challengescoming from?
Esther Jones (08:32):
Gosh.
They come from so many placesand so much of it's so
unexpected.
I think that's what bowled meover.
I couldn't begin to knowbeforehand what would trigger
me.
And so there's so many things.
Firstly, perhaps is that senseof isolation, not belonging.
It's very unusual for a humanbeing to say, I'm gonna step
away from what everyone else isdoing and do something entirely
(08:53):
new that I don't know what itwill look like.
It can feel lonely, it can feelisolating.
So there's all of that part toit that you have to somehow get
comfortable with or find yourcommunity.
There is the, what learningshould look like.
We've got a very, very fixedidea of learning.
And it looks like this and weexpect to see it in action.
(09:13):
We expect to see some kind ofoutput.
Of course, it doesn't reallylook like that.
That's not what natural learninglooks like, so that can feel
very scary.
For our whole lives we've beentaught to understand that a
child must do A, B, C, D, itmust go through this system to
have a successful life.
A good parent will make thathappen for their child.
(09:36):
There's so much to unpick.
What is success?
What's a good life, what's agood parent?
Am my bad parent now because I'mnot making that happen?
Will my child be angry with mein the future for not making
them do things, you know, like.
So those are just a few of thethings.
We've also been taught thatcertain things are good and
(09:57):
certain things are bad.
Screens are bad.
That's a huge trigger for manypeople.
Getting out, fresh air all thetime, playing outside, that's
quite good.
Your child may not want to, ifthey're having burnout from
school, you may have a child ina dark room for a while.
I've worked with many parentswho that's their reality.
We have this, how we think itshould be, how we want it to be,
(10:19):
how we expect it to be versushow it is.
And that's our challenge and howwe feel about it.
Those are very big challenges towork through.
They're big emotions to workthrough.
Leisa Reichelt (10:32):
For people who are less familiar with
unschooling, you said this ishow it is,
Esther Jones (10:38):
Mm,
Leisa Reichelt (10:38):
is it, how is it most of the time, what is it
like to,
Esther Jones (10:42):
yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (10:42):
to have an unschooling
Esther Jones (10:45):
Yeah, well, mine are older now, and I have to say
there's so much sense of easeand connection When they're
younger, it's different becauseyou are required to really be on
hand a lot.
But how does it feel?
I think when you find that sweetspot, first of all, it's all
relationship based.
The most important thing in allof us is our connection with our
child and our coming to meet ourchild where they are.
(11:08):
It's a real under looking forthat understanding with our
child.
Early on, what I found was lifejust slowed down when we were
all at home.
Sometimes it felt, even whenthey were young, like a kind of
lovely coworking space.
I'm getting on with my thing.
They're getting on with theirthing.
We were all happy and justchecking in with each other.
(11:28):
I found there was a gentlenessabout it, even when there would
be sibling arguments and momentswhere I'd get triggered, When
you are able to sit in the spacewithout society's expectations,
on you, it feels spacious.
It feels very spacious to justbe with your children and say,
Hey, you know what?
What we're doing is enough.
And I think that was a thingthat really bowled me over.
(11:52):
Just that sense of sometimes itbeing very, very quiet in the
house.
And, no one feeling that theyhad to do anything more than
they were doing.
But what they were doing wasenough.
So a sense of enoughness, thatmight be a nice way of putting
it because we all suffer fromnot being enough.
That's a classic.
So this sense of here we all aretogether, just getting on with
(12:13):
what we're getting on with.
Now every house is gonna bedifferent, every child's gonna
be different.
Your child may require you to bequite hands-on.
Your child may get on with theirstuff all by themselves.
Your child may love to go tolots of activities and want to
be out and about all day withother children.
Or you may have a child whoappreciates their time by
themselves at home.
(12:33):
And again, none of those areright or wrong, but what's the
need of my child?
What are my needs and how can wework together here?
So there's a sense of allyship.
Rather than, I'm the persontrying to make this work.
I'm the one in charge and theday has to look like I want it
to look, or it won't have been asuccessful day.
(12:54):
Right.
And that's quite hard to getoutta that as a parent.
Leisa Reichelt (12:57):
I wish I could say I was out of it.
I'm definitely not.
you used the word enough
Esther Jones (13:01):
mm.
Leisa Reichelt (13:02):
That's what I'm thinking about all the time.
Right?
My son had quite a lot ofburnout.
I'm starting to see little greenshoots that maybe we might be
heading in the right directionaway from burnout now, which is
amazing.
But I'm constantly challengingmyself on, is he doing enough?
Should I be encouraging him todo more?
Because he's still very much inthe spending lots of quality
(13:25):
time with Geometry Dash, whichis not actually maths.
You say in the book, that a lotof the time, you can feel
neglectful.
I do.
Esther Jones (13:33):
Yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (13:34):
How do we settle away from that?
How do you develop a confidencein enoughness?
Esther Jones (13:42):
Yeah, I think that unschooling and deschooling,
they help us get away from that'got to be doing', we've all got
to be doing.
And first of all, it takes usback to how are we?
And I think the most importantquestion is not how is my child
doing, but how are they?
Learning only really takes placewhen our nervous system is
(14:02):
relaxed.
I talk about in the book, thatlearning state of mind.
We're relaxed, we're curious,we're open.
We feel connected to whoeverwe're with.
We feel appreciated.
We don't feel judged.
That frame of mind that childcan tap into, even if they're
gaming, whatever they're doing,they're just sort of, they're
expansive, they're open.
And so what do we do?
(14:24):
Can we help our child find theirspace, be in the best space
possible for whatever needs toemerge to emerge.
Our job becomes less aboutmaking things happen and holding
them in this space, where we arecurious about them, we're
curious about ourselves.
I had a lovely example from awoman.
(14:46):
who just did my course and as wewere going through the weeks,
everyone practicing these newtools and strategies at home,
she had found with her son thatshe found it highly triggering
that her son was on his computerso much gaming.
And so she couldn't help butwalk into the room with this
sort of heaviness about her andher tone of voice it always
ended up in conflict.
(15:06):
And unhappiness.
She learned how to check herselfat the door.
Like, so if we can understandwhat are we bringing to this?
Am I bringing to this situationthe sense that I'm a terrible
parent, I'm neglectful thatyou'll never get a job.
That if I'm coming to talk to mychild with that huge backpack of
weighty problems, we can prettymuch guarantee that that's not
(15:28):
gonna be a great conversation.
Leisa Reichelt (15:31):
Hmm.
Esther Jones (15:31):
So she was able to check herself at the door and
just firstly appreciate thatactually this child had been in
burnout, was happy, he wasrelaxed, and she could see that
in him
Leisa Reichelt (15:43):
Hmm.
Esther Jones (15:43):
and she was able to appreciate that.
And then rather than coming inand sort of sighing or whatever
she used to do, she was able tocome in and say, well, that
looks like fun.
what are you doing?
And he went, oh.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
And he pulled up a chair for herand she sat down with him and
they had an hour together wherehe explained all the things he
(16:04):
was doing, she had no ideaabout.
He was delighted'cause she wasinterested in his passion.
And then they moved away andwent to get dinner together in
the kitchen.
Can we come into where they arerather than creating that
resistance?
Can we meet them where they are?
Can we be curious and say, mychild's chosen to do something
(16:27):
that I can't see the value in,but my child's chosen it for
some reason, that to them isvalid.
I wonder what that reason is.
And it could be that they'reconnecting with people.
It could be that they're lovinggetting really good at
something, or it could be thatthey're bored.
It could be that they're lonely.
We can't possibly know unless wego in.
(16:48):
But the worst thing we do is go,well that's a terrible waste of
time.
I'm a good parent.
I'm gonna stop that immediately,'cause we don't know their lived
experience.
Leisa Reichelt (16:56):
Yeah.
Esther Jones (16:57):
so it's meeting them in that space.
Leisa Reichelt (17:00):
one of the things that has worked well for
me as long as I keep rememberingto try to do it, is to take the
value judgment out of gaming andsitting in front of your
computer.
I've started to, to my son whenhe's playing on his games,
going, what are you working on?
What are you working on at themoment?
And like treating it as thoughit's work.
And he's like, oh, well actuallyI'm trying to achieve this in
(17:20):
this amount of time
Esther Jones (17:21):
Hmm.
Leisa Reichelt (17:21):
he's got little projects that he's working on
and he's setting himself goalsand applying himself in a very,
structured way to achievingthese goals.
Esther Jones (17:30):
Right.
Leisa Reichelt (17:31):
good learning for the future.
Esther Jones (17:33):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I mean, we all wanna be good atthings and that way that he's
managing that is something thathe'll apply to other things.
And he's learning how he works.
What kind of goal does he needto motivate him?
When is it too high?
When is it too low?
How can he work through hisfrustration?
What does that look like?
I mean, these are tools forlife.
We're taught that content iseverything, and it really isn't,
Leisa Reichelt (17:54):
Hmm.
Esther Jones (17:55):
We all could pick up content when we need it.
And as our children get old andthey say, okay, I wanna
specialize in this and I wannago in that direction, they will
certainly be acquiring content,there's no doubt whatsoever.
But we kind of overvalue that,over perhaps their self
knowledge and how they work.
Leisa Reichelt (18:14):
Where I live in my part of Australia, there's
quite a robust curriculumrequirement from the government
that we need to demonstrate.
There's a tension between thatand unschooling.
And they're really big onShakespeare and so I have to, by
the end of the year, demonstratethat my son has engaged or he is
been given opportunities toengage with Shakespeare.
When I see him on his GeometryDash trying and trying to
(18:36):
achieve this goal, I'm like,that is better life skills than
Romeo and Juliet, like, let's bereal.
So that difference between theskills and the content is really
an interesting way to thinkabout it.
Esther Jones (18:49):
So something that's always blown my mind
about these guys is the breadthof their learning and this way
that things come in and they'llgather anything in, if it's
interesting.
And through that they'veacquired a vast general
knowledge.
My two older ones in particular,by the age of eight or nine,
they were both, I mean, theirhistory is just, off the charts
(19:10):
because that's what they'reinterested in.
it's that curiosity is, I foundit amazing to see that curiosity
and how it unfolds.
Leisa Reichelt (19:18):
Yeah.
it certainly is beautiful whenyou start to see that natural
learning and that,
Esther Jones (19:23):
Mm,
Leisa Reichelt (19:24):
engagement and that curiosity kind of spark
back is, it is beautiful.
That said, it doesn't stop thetriggers from triggering and,
Esther Jones (19:33):
no, it doesn't.
Leisa Reichelt (19:34):
anxiety and the, you know, am I doing the right
thing?
Am I doing it the right way tokind of keep coming back and
back and back?
You write about those thingsthat are really common triggers
for parents.
Can you talk us through whatsome of those are and how
they're experienced?
Esther Jones (19:50):
Yeah, so I think that a lot of it is fear-based.
We're just worried about it notbeing how it needs to be.
We're worried about doing aterrible job, and so we tend to
have the fear, and we will havethe reaction right.
And often the reaction may feelquite benign.
It may even look like goodparenting, right?
Where we go, right, that's it.
You've been there for two hours.
Time to come off.
(20:11):
And we, we kind of ticked a boxof our good parent when we do
that, even if we've ended up inconflict with our child.
Or we try to sneak learning in.
And we're like, okay, we'regonna bake, but I'm gonna make
him calculate this, from metricinto Imperial and then I'm gonna
make him measure it.
And, and we kind of end up kindof creating this and we sort of
(20:33):
suck the joy out of everything'cause we're so worried rather
than just having a lovely timebaking or, or whatever.
And so our anxiety and ourstress tends to just sort of
come into this space.
So I always think of it and Ithink it's helpful to think of
it as us holding a space for ourchild not going, okay, do
whatever you like, but holdingthis space where they can feel
their connection to us.
(20:55):
And where we are, they're kindof ally in it.
And I think it's good to think,what am I bringing into the
space?
So when we're bringing thesefears in, it's very hard for us
not to then project that ontoour child.
So our child, they need to seethat we are confident in them.
We trust them, we believe inthem.
You know, like we, all of thesewonderful things.
But what do they see when theylook at, as they see a sort of
(21:16):
anxious, worried mom or dad, abit concerned, nervous because
we're trying so hard to get itright, we end up sort of
sabotaging that very space thatwe're trying to hold.
It can be the tiniest things.
I find it remarkable.
Everything would be going fine.
And then I would suddenly think,well, I wonder what someone else
would think about this.
Leisa Reichelt (21:35):
Oh
Esther Jones (21:35):
And then I'd feel my heart go.
I go, oh my God.
Oh my goodness.
No one's learned anything allday, no one's done anything, but
we haven't done anything.
You know, so it would all belovely until I, that for me was
a particular one.
'cause I was, was, was a, Ithink at school I was an
approval seeker.
It's been a very big piece oflearning for me that if I'm
(21:55):
gonna advocate for my children,and I want my children to be
their full selves, I have tohold that, not necessarily
getting approval from certainpeople.
That's gonna be the nature ofthe beast, and I have to learn
to be with that rather thanfeeling the trigger reacting.
Requiring my children to dosomething to soothe my fear,
(22:19):
which is kind of what we'redoing, even though we don't feel
like it, we kind of want ourchildren to, okay, do some maths
or do some English, or make thislook like learning so that I
feel better
Leisa Reichelt (22:29):
Proof of learning,
Esther Jones (22:30):
proof of learning.
Leisa Reichelt (22:31):
Something that I've struggled with along the
way as well is because it isquite freeform and again, like
we're in the early stages, sowe're
Esther Jones (22:39):
Yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (22:40):
I'm looking for hints of learning more
Esther Jones (22:42):
Right.
Leisa Reichelt (22:42):
I would love my son to be deeply into his
history.
We're not there yet.
I feel like I am constantlytrying to look for ways that I
can prove to myself and that Icould prove to somebody else
that learning is happening.
Esther Jones (22:55):
Well, I think it's good to be open to the idea that
it can look like many things.
And so what I do encourage isnote it down at the end of the
day, not just the learning, butthe thing that felt good, that
he was super happy today.
That he came down to makehimself a sandwich.
That we sat and had a cup of teatogether, that he shared what
he's doing, that he told meabout a worry he has.
(23:15):
And then also noticing what arethe conversations we're having,
what things pop up.
Often it might be things about abusiness they wanna make or some
travel or something about thefuture, or just some deep dive
into some aspect of their game.
And so many people, and it'sdefinitely been my experience
talked about how conversation,just conversation, just talking
(23:36):
and ends up being the vehiclefor connection, for learning
about each other.
so see if you can see what isthere.
Because oftentimes what we aredoing when we're fear-based
we're saying, well, this isn'there and this isn't here.
And so we can't see what ishere.
that's such a shame because whatis here is doubtless very rich
(23:57):
in some way.
But because we are lookingsomewhere else and for other
things we panic and we can't seewhat we've got.
So we stopped seeing that.
Leisa Reichelt (24:08):
Yeah, and you described it as mindfulness in
action, which I thought wasreally useful just in terms of
watching for your own triggersas well as noticing the learning
and being in the moment, nottrying to
Esther Jones (24:20):
Right,
Leisa Reichelt (24:21):
shape it too much, and that really resonated
with me.
The main thing that we do forlearning is conversations.
That's how I feel learninghappening.
We started having conversationsabout American politics
recently.
I never thought he'd be theslightest bit interested in
that.
It's possible I'm foisting myown special interest onto him
accidentally.
But it started from Robloxactually.
'cause there's some legal actionhappening with Roblox.
(24:41):
And so he is like, oh, there'showever many states suing
Roblox.
And I'm like, I wonder ifthey're Democratic or Republican
states.
And he was like, I don't evenknow what that means.
What does that mean?
And so that just opened up lots.
So, and here we came backanother time.
So I've been looking into thisand this is what I've
discovered.
I'm like, huh,
Esther Jones (24:58):
I love that'cause that's often how it goes.
There's often a littleconversation and there's another
one that brings in a little bitof that one and then someone
else joins the conversation,brings in something else and
it's just, yeah, it's so richand it can absolutely come from
Roblox
Leisa Reichelt (25:12):
Mm-hmm.
Esther Jones (25:13):
That was the thing that I was so amazed by when we
started, was a day of"nothing"in inverted commas, led to so
much.
It was almost as though theideas were kind of percolating
all day and everyone wasthinking or doing or whatever,
and I maybe couldn't seeanything today, but tomorrow the
ideas and the things that comeup, because they had space, they
(25:36):
had space.
I always found that fascinating.
Leisa Reichelt (25:39):
My son's quite a slow, uh, he needs more time for
processing things
Esther Jones (25:43):
right.
Leisa Reichelt (25:44):
You don't get that in school.
It's all like, boom,
Esther Jones (25:46):
No.
Leisa Reichelt (25:46):
boom, boom.
But in this way of working, wecan have a little conversation.
It can sit for a couple of daysand then he'll come back in a
really thoughtful way.
Esther Jones (25:54):
Mm.
Leisa Reichelt (25:55):
to learn to not do that thing that you said,
which is go, oh, well why don'twe sit down and have a look at a
map of America and see whichstates are which, because like
that, he'll just go, I'm notgonna talk about that with mom
anymore'cause now she's gonnaturn it into an activity.
Esther Jones (26:08):
I love that.
Yes.
We've all done that.
We grab it and go, oh, here wego.
Leisa Reichelt (26:12):
I thought that was my job, right?
I thought that was my job, wasto go, oh, he is interested in
something, so how can I extendthis?
Esther Jones (26:19):
Hmm.
Leisa Reichelt (26:20):
doesn't work for us.
Esther Jones (26:22):
and sometimes it might be, but that's the tricky
thing of this.
Sometimes you might, Hey, youknow what?
And they'll go, oh, that's agood idea.
But I think this is where it'sso nuanced and this is where
we're sort of working out what'sthe thing here that would be
welcome?
And what's the thing here thatcreates resistance?
And oftentimes we can tellbecause of how we are bringing
(26:44):
it.
If I'm bringing my idea ofgetting the map out, because I
think that is how it could lookand that would feel good to me,
then he's probably gonna beresistant to the map now if I
can see that oh, he might lovethe idea of a map.
He might really enjoy that.
I'll let him know about that.
(27:05):
The idea will sound different tothe child as well.
They can tell when we're joiningtheir flow or when we're kind of
dumping something on them.
Leisa Reichelt (27:14):
I use, I wonder a lot more now.
I wonder if it's this or that.
I I wonder about that.
So you just sort of plant theseed of the idea of the question
that might not even, they mightnot be aware that that is a
possible question and then hefollows it or he doesn't follow
it.
The map thing is interestingthough, right?
Because for me it's like, ooh,my, in the back of my mind, I'm
going, I can map this togeography.
(27:35):
Now if I can just get a map out.
I can make this sound we've donesome geography stuff and put
that in the report and that willbe really helpful, but every
time I try to do that, it shutsthings down.
So I've just had to step backand trust the process.
Esther Jones (27:49):
Yeah.
there's a lot of trust involved.
And coming back to thosetriggers, in the book I
described this process of beingable to pause.
Noticing our own trigger,noticing when we are about to
say something or do somethingthat may not be helpful to the
situation.
just because we can't quite helpourselves, We spent all these
(28:10):
decades being like that,thinking like that.
Can we unravel that?
Can we undo that?
Noticing ourselves in ourbodies, how we are.
Are we tense?
Are we triggered?
Do we feel angry?
Do we feel frustrated?
And if we've got anything likethat going on.
Can we stop?
Can we give ourselves a momentto just be with that and
(28:30):
recognize that, and be kind tothat, bring some self-compassion
and say, can we calm our nervoussystem and then engage with our
child?
because then that engagement isgonna come from an entirely
different place.
And we can be curious again.
Because when we are triggered,we go into a kind of a tunnel
vision.
All we wanna do is solve it, andwe generally know exactly how we
(28:52):
want to solve it, right?
We know exactly what has tohappen and how it has to look.
Our job really, as we deschool,is to keep seeing kind of open
that space up again.
Leisa Reichelt (29:02):
Hmm.
Esther Jones (29:02):
Here I am in tunnel vision.
Can I widen my perspective?
Can I see what's actuallyhappening here?
Can I hear them?
Can I invite their voice in?
Can I get curious?
And that, although it's reallydifficult, really challenging is
the rich part.
I always say nothing is everwrong, actually.
If we can be curious about it,nothing's ever wrong.
(29:24):
It's only something to becurious about.
Something that gives us moreinformation, something that
allows us to connect moredeeply.
Even a really hard moments.
What's in it?
What am I learning here?
What's the connection here?
And allowing ourselves to feelbad as well.
That when it's hard, allowingthat difficult, it's really hard
work, you know?
I don't think any of us werereally meant to do this alone.
(29:47):
It's also hard because ideallywe would have more community
around us.
And particularly if you have achild who's in burnout, who's
anxious, they're probably notopen to being out in community.
That can be very isolating.
So there are things about thisthat make it objectively hard.
And so recognizing that ishelpful as well.
(30:09):
Making sure that you are superresourced, like what you need is
so important in all of this.
For me unschooling is reallyabout how do we live as humans?
How do we thrive as humans, asour whole selves, our unique
people?
Well, we are whole selves too,so we are also there.
We're part of our little familycommunity, so our needs matter
too.
And how do we bring them in andhow do we honor them?
(30:31):
I think that's a big part of it.
Leisa Reichelt (30:33):
I imagine that there are a lot of people who
are listening to this, who feelsuch a long, long, long way from
having their needs met.
There are a lot of folk who arereally stretched to the absolute
limit of what they can cope withat the minute.
So that sounds like such aunimaginable luxury.
Esther Jones (30:56):
Absolutely.
I would just say one thing tothose people, which is that
recognizing that you have needsand your needs are valid, even
if in that moment in time itappears to be, there was nothing
you can do.
Being kind to your own needsrather than telling yourself
you're doing a bad job and youshould be doing it better is
already a helpful step forward.
(31:17):
Even if that's just a calmingtouch, saying a little mantra,
you're doing the best you can.
You're doing the best you can,Be kind to yourselves within all
of this, and I think that'ssomething we neglect often.
Leisa Reichelt (31:29):
You have a whole chapter in the book, about
self-compassion, which I thoughtwas really helpful.
The link that you made betweenself-compassion and your own
nervous system I thought wasparticularly interesting'cause
we talk about co-regulation andthe importance of our child's
(31:50):
nervous system and therelationship between their
nervous system and our nervoussystem as being such an
important thing.
I'd never read about this linkbetween self-compassion and our
own nervous system regulation.
Can you talk about that a littlebit
Esther Jones (32:02):
Sure.
Well, first of all, how you areas a parent is the most
important thing for your child,I believe that if you had to
focus all day tomorrow only onyourself or as much on yourself
as possible and neglect quite alot of things you do around the
house you'd be doing everyone abig favor.
The way we are is so importantfor our children, and it's so
(32:23):
normal that we becomedysregulated when our child's
dysregulated.
'cause that's how nervoussystems work.
A dysregulated nervous systemwill set us on edge.
Now if we get set on edge, andthat then triggers deeper
thoughts of our own.
Like, here I go again.
I'm doing it wrong.
Everyone must think I'm afailure.
What would my mom think of this?
(32:44):
Imagine if the teacher at schoolsaw me now.
all of these awful thoughts andI think, what would you say to
your friend?
If it was your friend, would yousay that to them?
No.
What would you do to it for afriend?
Can you do that for yourself?
Because when it's a friend inthat situation, We explain that,
It's not your fault at all.
You're doing a wonderful job.
You're doing the best you can.
(33:05):
We say that to help them soothetheir nervous system.
Now, if we can bringself-compassion to ourselves.
We can help our nervous systemcome down.
when we're telling ourselveswe're doing a bad job we are
ramping it up and making it evenharder for ourselves, and for
our child.
One of the biggest tools Ilearned, was at a time when, my
(33:27):
child would become verydysregulated when he was
distressed.
It was incredibly challenging.
I'm sure there's peoplelistening who have this
situation.
I think it's more common than wethink.
People don't talk about it somuch, but we'd have these
terrible meltdowns, which couldbe quite scary.
I learned that simple techniqueof bringing my hand to my heart
and saying, this is all gonnaland okay, it's gonna land okay.
(33:52):
Or it's okay.
It's okay.
And I would just bring my handto my chest, to my heart.
it sounds so gentle, so soft,but it was so impactful for me.
Because it reminded me that thisis hard.
This is parenting to a power ofa thousand.
Most people don't ever have todo this.
This is very difficult and Ifound that it was so helpful to
me, As my nervous system camedown, his would come down.
(34:15):
And over time we found a way tonavigate those moments.
And then those moments reallystopped happening because there
was enough space the spacebecame much easier.
and so yeah, it's part ofco-regulation.
It's also just part of holdingthat space in a way that feels
good by being kind to ourselves.
I think it's a huge part.
(34:36):
I think it's step one,
Leisa Reichelt (34:38):
One of the funny things for me is that, my story
that I tell myself is that ifI'd have done a better job, I
would've got on top of thissituation much earlier.
My son wouldn't have had as muchdistress and trauma as he'd had,
and we wouldn't be here.
So I deserve this because Ididn't do a good job earlier,
and so none of this, oh, oh,you're a good mom.
You've tried, you know, none ofthat lands because I have such a
(35:00):
strong story, but reading yourchapter, gave me an incentive to
let that go because it would begood for my child.
I could let that story gobecause it's gonna help my
child, which, is probably notthe way you're supposed to do
it, but if it works, who cares?
Esther Jones (35:14):
I think one of the biggest things in unschooling
and one of the most inspiringparts of it is that we are
showing our children or we aredoing the best we can to show
our children what it looks liketo live a good life.
I often think, how would I likemy child to manage this moment
at my age?
Well, I'd like them to be kindto themselves.
(35:35):
Well, then I have to show that.
And show your child, no, itmatters to me to take care of
myself.
And it will matter to you whenyou are an adult to take care of
yourself.
So sometimes I think if we canframe it in a what do I want to
show my child?
That can sometimes give us thatlittle path in because I think
what you're talking about isreally common.
(35:56):
So where's our little path intowhat gives us permission to be
self-compassionate?
Leisa Reichelt (36:02):
Yeah, because it's a better way to look after
our kids is what works for
Esther Jones (36:05):
Well, if that's the way into it.
Leisa Reichelt (36:09):
Exactly.
Esther, I feel a compulsion tohave a sense of what my job is
as a parent who's doingunschooling.
Can you help me understandwhat's my job?
what am I supposed to do?
Esther Jones (36:25):
I think if we go back to that, we're doing many
things if we think of it asbeing our child's ally.
Our most fundamental part, is tohold a non-judgmental space.
It's to hold the space withinwhich people can feel relaxed.
Those nervous systems can relaxwhen they're with us.
They don't feel judged orcriticized.
I think that's the mostimportant part.
And then really facilitating,just noticing, some of this will
(36:49):
be looking for books on thingsthey're interested in Or some of
it will be talking with themabout what they're enjoying.
So, I think it's important tosee what could we bring to the
home that's interesting.
How can we keep lifeinteresting?
If you have a child that doesn'tlike to go out, if you've got
any interesting friends that cancome around, films that you can
put on, you know, keep thepossibilities of life alive,
(37:09):
let's say.
So it would depend very much onevery child.
I mean, I'll give you someexamples My oldest son, who was
a real gamer.
A lot of it was just sort ofunderstanding his gaming.
It's always been about talkingwith him about political
systems, economics, all of thethings that he loved in his
gaming.
With him, it's been a lot ofconversation.
He had a lot of social anxiety,so around the age of 13, 14, he
(37:30):
wanted to start doing moregroups and things.
So a lot of it was helping him,transition into being in more
groups.
So if you have a child who getssocial anxiety, for them to take
that at their own pace, I thinkis such an advantage because
they're able to say, yeah, thisfeels like a good space for me,
or No, this doesn't.
And again, that wisdom aroundwhat feels safe, what feels
(37:54):
good.
And so for him, it's been a lotabout moving out into the world
and trying out new things and meaccompanying him.
I would really say whatever yourchild wants, and some child
might want quite a lot ofstructure.
Some child might not, you know,and again, just getting curious
about that.
My middle child actually went toschool for about five months.
He decided he would try out thelocal school.
(38:16):
Unschooling can include school.
Because they are exploring life.
What does it look like to helpthem in their exploration of
life?
What does that look like today?
Leisa Reichelt (38:26):
Hmm.
Esther Jones (38:27):
and sometimes it may look like very little and
sometimes it may look like agreat adventure.
and sometimes it may look likethem trying out school.
And then making yourrelationship the most important
thing.
Sometimes I have a joke.
I was interviewing someone frommy podcast and we were talking
about what we do and I wassaying I think there's something
about just being a benignpresence in the house, just
(38:48):
being a nice person to bearound.
You know, they come in thekitchen and mom doesn't say,
what are you doing today?
She says, you want a cup of tea?
It's everything.
It's so small, but it'severything, you know?
And the space becomesinvitational.
and that requires us being okaytoo.
It's very important that we arefeeling as good as we can in
(39:10):
order to be able to do that.
I would add something to thatbecause we are the adult here.
We are the parent.
We do have more livedexperience.
Of course, I have always been acouple of years ahead
Leisa Reichelt (39:20):
I,
Esther Jones (39:21):
so far as what are the potential opportunities in
our area for them, that kind ofthing.
I think there's no harm at allin thinking well at 14, all
these things open up.
At 16, all these things open up.
At 18, there are thesepossibilities.
You don't have to share themwith your child.
You may and the child may say,no, that's not for me.
That's fine.
(39:41):
But you can be keeping an eyeout, bringing things in,
noticing.
I think that's really importantthat we are doing that.
'cause we do have some sense of,we have a sense of the system as
well.
We have a sense of when theymight want to rejoin that
system.
Leisa Reichelt (39:55):
Hmm.
Esther Jones (39:55):
Right, and at what points might that work for them?
So all of that, I would be fullyembracing of it all
Leisa Reichelt (40:02):
I've started putting ideas of things that we
could potentially do on littleindex cards and giving him a
little stack
Esther Jones (40:09):
Hmm.
Leisa Reichelt (40:09):
When you're ready, have a look at these.
They're just some thoughts.
If there's anything in therethat you think might be of
interest, let me know.
If not, that's fine too.
And routinely, tells me howrubbish all of my ideas are, but
the other day he chose one, so,hooray.
Esther Jones (40:23):
Right.
There you go.
Leisa Reichelt (40:24):
I think that brings us to one of the other
triggers, right?
Which is, if I go down thispathway, how is this gonna limit
them in the rest of their life?
What kind of opportunities am Icutting off by choosing this
pathway?
How should we think about that?
Esther Jones (40:39):
Yeah, so I think that's normal.
I certainly had that when webegan.
My own lived experience and thatof many people I know is that
our children as they grow olderstay in that place of
understanding themselves andknowing what feels good for
them.
They're very connected to whatthey want to do.
My 17-year-old, for example,last year at 16, went to a sixth
(41:02):
form college, which is like thetwo last years of high school.
Leisa Reichelt (41:04):
Mm-hmm.
Esther Jones (41:05):
so that he could then go to university.
So he did the exams he needed todo, he did them from home and it
took about seven months.
He got just what he needed.
That was his goal, and he got aplace and he's loving it.
He's having a great time.
It's very easygoing.
It's no uniform, it's first nameterms with the, you know, it's
all very respectful and hereally enjoying that.
(41:25):
And he's very interesting'causehe notices like, so there's one
class that he doesn't much enjoybecause he feels like nobody
really wants to be there andthey're not enthusiastic enough
because he's there a hundredpercent.
He's there out of choice.
He knows he doesn't have to bethere.
And he is also so used to doinghis own thing.
He's very self-directed, He isenthusiastic, he's
(41:46):
self-directed.
I only see that he's really wellset up for it.
So that's been very interesting.
And then my oldest son, whofinds classroom learning,
particularly galling, he's a farmore hands-on experimental guy.
he just finished a two yearcollege further education thing
in performing arts.
Leisa Reichelt (42:06):
Hmm.
Esther Jones (42:07):
in a small group he did a lot of writing.
it was so interesting.
I can't see that there wasanything missing.
Particularly in any kind of workthat's required thinking,
creative thinking, having theirown thoughts, they're so used to
doing that.
so I think that if a kid did goback in they could find it
difficult, to settle into thatroutine of things.
(42:27):
But I think if they're there outof choice.
'cause this is what makes senseto them.
They kind of make it work.
They're much wiser than we thinkthey will be.
They have a lot of capacity.
There might be some catching upto do in some area, but we
didn't even find that.
So my experience has been that,they know how to learn, they
know how they learn.
And there's many ways of sort ofslotting back in later on.
Leisa Reichelt (42:50):
Amazing.
so wrapping up.
for folk who are coming at this,particularly through that School
Can't lens.
So we've tried school that's notworked and probably, this is
like a last resort kind ofsituation.
and eventually, hopefully we seethat
Esther Jones (43:09):
Yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (43:09):
great place to be.
How should we think about thattransition from school, and the
difficulties there into anunschooling way of thinking and
being.
Esther Jones (43:22):
Yeah, I would focus entirely on relationship,
connection and feeling okay.
And I would drop everythingelse.
You know?
Nothing is learned in stress, inanxiety.
I would focus on making thingsfeel as good and safe as
possible.
Be their safe space.
(43:42):
Enjoy them.
See them for who they are.
See the wonderful parts of them,and reflect those back at them.
Don't reflect back at them thatthey've failed, that you've
failed.
I know that's really hard, butkeep questioning that narrative.
Keep questioning it.
Find voices that you enjoylistening to.
Find podcasts like yours.
(44:03):
Find people that have walkedthat path and hold onto those.
But more than anything, try tocome back to seeing your child
as a whole person, as you, as awhole person, as absolutely
enough, and just focus on yourwellbeing, your happiness.
If you are happy today and youdo nothing, you are happy today
and that's fantastic and thething will come
Leisa Reichelt (44:25):
That's a lot better than where a lot of us
are right now.
Esther Jones (44:28):
right?
Leisa Reichelt (44:28):
That's fantastic advice.
Thank you so much.
It's been wonderful to talk toyou today.
I know you have a ton of helpfulresources, including the
upcoming book.
Where's the best place for us tofind out about all of that?
Esther Jones (44:43):
So the book, has been out for about a week or so.
it's called, the ParentsHandbook to Unschooling
Yourself.
And, otherwise if you go to mywebsite, which is
esther-jones.com, everything isthere as well.
My podcast is there.
You can access my writing fromthere and get in touch, my
courses, whatever.
And I'm always really delightedto hear from people, Whatever
(45:04):
your situation.
So do reach out.
Leisa Reichelt (45:06):
Well, i'll put links to all of that in the
notes so that you can accessthem easily.
Alright, thank you so much,Esther.
It's been fantastic to talk.
Appreciate it.
Esther Jones (45:15):
Thank you very much.
Bye.
Leisa Reichelt (45:17):
Well, I loved talking to Esther, and I hope
you found something reallyhelpful in that conversation as
well.
I've put a link to Esther'swebsite in the episode notes,
and you can go there to find allthe great resources she has
available and to dive moredeeply into understanding
unschooling.
If you have found our podcasthelpful, please do take a moment
to subscribe or give us a ratingor a review.
(45:39):
You will be our favorite peopleand it really does help us get
the podcast in front of morepeople who have School Can't
kids, and who haven't yet foundour community and all the
information and support that weshare.
If you have some feedback forus.
Perhaps you have a suggestionfor a future topic or a guest,
or maybe you'd like to shareyour own lived experience of
(46:00):
School Can't.
Please drop me an email toschoolcantpodcast@gmail.com.
I would love to hear from you.
If you are a parent or carer inAustralia and you are feeling
distressed, remember you canalways call the Parent Helpline
in your state.
A link with the number to callis in the episode notes.
From the 31st of October, theVictorian government is shutting
down their Parent Helpline,which is very disappointing.
(46:23):
I have put a link to protestthis in the episode notes if you
are inclined to do so.
Thank you again for listening.
We will talk again soon.
Take care.
Hello and welcome to the School Can't
Experience Podcast.
I'm Leisa Reichelt, and thispodcast is brought to you by the
School Can't Australiacommunity.
Caring for a young person who isstruggling to attend school can
be a stressful and isolatingexperience, but you are not
alone.
Thousands of parents acrossAustralia and many more around
the world face similarchallenges and experiences every
(00:27):
day.
If you are home educating orsuspect that might potentially
be in your future, you are goingto love this episode.
We are joined by Esther Jones, aUK based parent who has
unschooled her own children andnow supports parents around the
world with their own unschoolingexperiences through courses, her
podcast, and a new book calledThe Parents' Guide to
(00:49):
Unschooling Yourself.
Esther really helps usunderstand how we as adults play
a really crucial role in ouryoung people's journey and how
our mindset and our wellness iscritical to their success.
I hope you enjoy ourconversation.
Alright, Esther Jones, thank youso much for joining us for our
podcast today.
Esther Jones (01:10):
Thank you for inviting me.
Leisa Reichelt (01:11):
I was very excited to have the opportunity
to have a bit of a read throughyour book, and found it so,
thought provoking and sohelpful, certainly for the
journey that I'm on.
So I'm really looking forward totalking to you more about that
now.
But before we get into that, whydon't you tell us a little bit
about yourself, Esther, and yourjourney that you've been on.
Esther Jones (01:33):
I have three children.
They're 19, 17, and 13.
We live in the UK now, but welived in Spain until about six
years ago, just before thepandemic.
Our journey to unschooling.
I had always imagined we'd doschool.
I had never thought aboutanything else, I realized when
my eldest son, who was laterdiagnosed autistic, PDA, when he
was very young, I realized thatmainstream wasn't going to be a
(01:56):
good fit.
He, you know, rhythm of his owndrum.
He just, wouldn't takedirection.
He just needed to do it his ownway.
He was frequently overwhelmed bylots of people.
And so, he and his youngerbrother went to a very gentle
preschool, which was lovely forthem.
That worked really well.
And then when he reached agesix, they went to a very
(02:16):
alternative school.
And, we did that for a fewyears, but it just never worked.
It just was still too much.
It was overwhelming.
It was, you know, and I couldnever really work out what was
wrong.
And so finally we just said, ah,let's just try and do something
different.
Or I think, I thought I'd findthe perfect school.
We'll take them out.
And so for about a year or so,it's like, there is somewhere, I
(02:37):
know there's somewhere that willwork for us.
And of course there wasn't,right?
But after a year I thought, oh,actually.
Hmm, this works.
This is okay.
And by that time, I'd comeacross the word unschooling.
So I thought there's a word forthis.
This isn't something I'veinvented.
It's a thing.
And so then I started to learnmore and appreciate more and to
see more.
(02:58):
and then my daughter who's now13, never went to school'cause
that was when she was justpreschool age.
So that's how we ended up here.
Leisa Reichelt (03:07):
That's fantastic.
So the book you've written isabout unschooling, but it's a
handbook for parents to thinkabout how to unschool
themselves, Or deschoolthemselves?
Esther Jones (03:19):
We could use either word.
Leisa Reichelt (03:21):
Yeah.
Why don't we start with somedefinitions, like when you're
talking about unschooling, Whatdo you mean by that?
Esther Jones (03:29):
In the broadest terms, we could talk about it
being about our children beingself-directed in their
education.
However, I think any parent whoeven just dips a toe in here
goes, oh, hang on a moment.
This is so much more thaneducation.
Learning is a part of it.
If we just go back for a moment,it's really based on the premise
that all human beings, we'reborn to learn.
We're born to feelself-actualized.
(03:50):
We're born to lead meaningfullives.
We are each unique.
We've got a different way ofbeing in the world.
Unschooling is saying, okay.
Who's my child?
I want to discover my child.
I'm not gonna tell my child howto be, I don't want them to seek
approval.
I want them to be the personthat they're here to be.
And so what can that look like?
So that's really the startingpoint of it.
(04:12):
It's not where most peoplestart, it's not where we
started.
But that really is the premiseof it.
Can we accompany our children ina way that they have agency,
that they can learn what itmeans to be themselves?
What does it look like to movethrough the world, to navigate
life in a way that's meaningfulfor them, in a way that keeps
them safe, in a way that keepsthem aligned with who they are.
(04:36):
So that's kind of my broadestdefinition of what unschooling
is.
Leisa Reichelt (04:40):
And so it's basically like a philosophical
approach to home education.
Is that how you mightcharacterize
Esther Jones (04:47):
I put it in the book actually, that my son, my
middle son, I once said, what doyou think of the word
unschooling?
He said.
Should I just call it living?
Really?
Oh, you're so right.
And that's kind of the keyreally, how can we live all
together in this community thatis our family and in the wider
community in a way that we arelearning as we go.
So yes, it is an alternative.
(05:09):
I guess you could call it aphilosophy.
It's quite an intentional way oflife.
So sort of living intentionally,I would call it.
Leisa Reichelt (05:16):
I think you hinted before at the idea that
there are some people who cometo home education and
unschooling because they have aphilosophy, a belief in a way of
life that they
Esther Jones (05:29):
mm,
Leisa Reichelt (05:29):
are choosing for themselves and for their
families.
Most of the people who arelistening to this will come to
it through trauma.
Esther Jones (05:38):
yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (05:38):
come
Esther Jones (05:39):
Absolutely.
Leisa Reichelt (05:39):
through trying to make school work, failing to
make school work.
And then, you know, so manypeople have said, I didn't
choose home education.
It was like the absolute lastresort.
Part of my journey then was tocome to discover unschooling and
go, well actually, maybe thereis a lot of good in this
approach.
(06:00):
Tell us a little bit about whywould we do this?
What's the benefits of thisapproach?
Esther Jones (06:04):
Well, I love how you've just described that.
I think that's such a commonthread.
It was certainly mine.
The way that it unfolded for me,and I'm gonna say the vast
majority of parents I work withhave neurodivergent children or
children who simply can't doschool.
It's too much for them.
They're anxious, they're inburnout.
for whatever reason, this parenthas had to go, hang on a minute.
(06:27):
We've got to find something elsefor their mental health.
For our mental health.
And so as you say, you've had togo, okay, help.
Here we are at home.
Now what do we do?
Then eventually there's that,oh, okay, maybe this can work
for us.
That's generally the journeythat people make.
And they do come at it with alot of trauma.
But there's something reallyinteresting in this, I think
(06:47):
you've spoken to Naomi Fisher,right?
So she talks about the canary inthe coal mine.
These children who cannot doschool, being the ones putting
their hand up and going.
This doesn't work.
This is not a good system forchildren.
Generally speaking.
Some children may thrive, butfor many children, it's not a
great system.
And so these children whoabsolutely cannot do it, force
(07:09):
us into a space and they forceus to be courageous, more
open-minded to think aboutthings we would never have
thought about otherwise.
And so we're put into thishorribly uncomfortable place
that can feel terrible at thebeginning and absolutely filled
with trauma and a sense of whowe are as a parent, and that
doesn't feel good, and our childwho seems to be failing and all
(07:32):
these things.
Right?
But then when we say, okay, herewe are, and that's our story so
far, if we're able to say, whatdo we want our story to be going
forward?
What can this be?
I think that's when we go, ah,hang on a minute.
Yes, I can see some value here.
And then as we start to walkthat path, that's when it really
(07:53):
opens up and our learning andour growth is incredible if
we're open to it.
If we're open to seeing ourchild and allowing our child to
challenge all of our assumptionsabout so many things, But we
have to kind of allow that
Leisa Reichelt (08:11):
In the introduction to the book, you
say children are rarely thestumbling block to learning out
of school.
The challenges that arise arefar more likely to be all about
the parents, and I have to saythat has also been my lived
experience.
Esther Jones (08:26):
Mine too.
Leisa Reichelt (08:27):
Why is this so challenging for us?
Where are these challengescoming from?
Esther Jones (08:32):
Gosh.
They come from so many placesand so much of it's so
unexpected.
I think that's what bowled meover.
I couldn't begin to knowbeforehand what would trigger
me.
And so there's so many things.
Firstly, perhaps is that senseof isolation, not belonging.
It's very unusual for a humanbeing to say, I'm gonna step
away from what everyone else isdoing and do something entirely
(08:53):
new that I don't know what itwill look like.
It can feel lonely, it can feelisolating.
So there's all of that part toit that you have to somehow get
comfortable with or find yourcommunity.
There is the, what learningshould look like.
We've got a very, very fixedidea of learning.
And it looks like this and weexpect to see it in action.
(09:13):
We expect to see some kind ofoutput.
Of course, it doesn't reallylook like that.
That's not what natural learninglooks like, so that can feel
very scary.
For our whole lives we've beentaught to understand that a
child must do A, B, C, D, itmust go through this system to
have a successful life.
A good parent will make thathappen for their child.
(09:36):
There's so much to unpick.
What is success?
What's a good life, what's agood parent?
Am my bad parent now because I'mnot making that happen?
Will my child be angry with mein the future for not making
them do things, you know, like.
So those are just a few of thethings.
We've also been taught thatcertain things are good and
(09:57):
certain things are bad.
Screens are bad.
That's a huge trigger for manypeople.
Getting out, fresh air all thetime, playing outside, that's
quite good.
Your child may not want to, ifthey're having burnout from
school, you may have a child ina dark room for a while.
I've worked with many parentswho that's their reality.
We have this, how we think itshould be, how we want it to be,
(10:19):
how we expect it to be versushow it is.
And that's our challenge and howwe feel about it.
Those are very big challenges towork through.
They're big emotions to workthrough.
Leisa Reichelt (10:32):
For people who are less familiar with
unschooling, you said this ishow it is,
Esther Jones (10:38):
Mm,
Leisa Reichelt (10:38):
is it, how is it most of the time, what is it
like to,
Esther Jones (10:42):
yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (10:42):
to have an unschooling
Esther Jones (10:45):
Yeah, well, mine are older now, and I have to say
there's so much sense of easeand connection When they're
younger, it's different becauseyou are required to really be on
hand a lot.
But how does it feel?
I think when you find that sweetspot, first of all, it's all
relationship based.
The most important thing in allof us is our connection with our
child and our coming to meet ourchild where they are.
(11:08):
It's a real under looking forthat understanding with our
child.
Early on, what I found was lifejust slowed down when we were
all at home.
Sometimes it felt, even whenthey were young, like a kind of
lovely coworking space.
I'm getting on with my thing.
They're getting on with theirthing.
We were all happy and justchecking in with each other.
(11:28):
I found there was a gentlenessabout it, even when there would
be sibling arguments and momentswhere I'd get triggered, When
you are able to sit in the spacewithout society's expectations,
on you, it feels spacious.
It feels very spacious to justbe with your children and say,
Hey, you know what?
What we're doing is enough.
And I think that was a thingthat really bowled me over.
(11:52):
Just that sense of sometimes itbeing very, very quiet in the
house.
And, no one feeling that theyhad to do anything more than
they were doing.
But what they were doing wasenough.
So a sense of enoughness, thatmight be a nice way of putting
it because we all suffer fromnot being enough.
That's a classic.
So this sense of here we all aretogether, just getting on with
(12:13):
what we're getting on with.
Now every house is gonna bedifferent, every child's gonna
be different.
Your child may require you to bequite hands-on.
Your child may get on with theirstuff all by themselves.
Your child may love to go tolots of activities and want to
be out and about all day withother children.
Or you may have a child whoappreciates their time by
themselves at home.
(12:33):
And again, none of those areright or wrong, but what's the
need of my child?
What are my needs and how can wework together here?
So there's a sense of allyship.
Rather than, I'm the persontrying to make this work.
I'm the one in charge and theday has to look like I want it
to look, or it won't have been asuccessful day.
(12:54):
Right.
And that's quite hard to getoutta that as a parent.
Leisa Reichelt (12:57):
I wish I could say I was out of it.
I'm definitely not.
you used the word enough
Esther Jones (13:01):
mm.
Leisa Reichelt (13:02):
That's what I'm thinking about all the time.
Right?
My son had quite a lot ofburnout.
I'm starting to see little greenshoots that maybe we might be
heading in the right directionaway from burnout now, which is
amazing.
But I'm constantly challengingmyself on, is he doing enough?
Should I be encouraging him todo more?
Because he's still very much inthe spending lots of quality
(13:25):
time with Geometry Dash, whichis not actually maths.
You say in the book, that a lotof the time, you can feel
neglectful.
I do.
Esther Jones (13:33):
Yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (13:34):
How do we settle away from that?
How do you develop a confidencein enoughness?
Esther Jones (13:42):
Yeah, I think that unschooling and deschooling,
they help us get away from that'got to be doing', we've all got
to be doing.
And first of all, it takes usback to how are we?
And I think the most importantquestion is not how is my child
doing, but how are they?
Learning only really takes placewhen our nervous system is
(14:02):
relaxed.
I talk about in the book, thatlearning state of mind.
We're relaxed, we're curious,we're open.
We feel connected to whoeverwe're with.
We feel appreciated.
We don't feel judged.
That frame of mind that childcan tap into, even if they're
gaming, whatever they're doing,they're just sort of, they're
expansive, they're open.
And so what do we do?
(14:24):
Can we help our child find theirspace, be in the best space
possible for whatever needs toemerge to emerge.
Our job becomes less aboutmaking things happen and holding
them in this space, where we arecurious about them, we're
curious about ourselves.
I had a lovely example from awoman.
(14:46):
who just did my course and as wewere going through the weeks,
everyone practicing these newtools and strategies at home,
she had found with her son thatshe found it highly triggering
that her son was on his computerso much gaming.
And so she couldn't help butwalk into the room with this
sort of heaviness about her andher tone of voice it always
ended up in conflict.
(15:06):
And unhappiness.
She learned how to check herselfat the door.
Like, so if we can understandwhat are we bringing to this?
Am I bringing to this situationthe sense that I'm a terrible
parent, I'm neglectful thatyou'll never get a job.
That if I'm coming to talk to mychild with that huge backpack of
weighty problems, we can prettymuch guarantee that that's not
(15:28):
gonna be a great conversation.
Leisa Reichelt (15:31):
Hmm.
Esther Jones (15:31):
So she was able to check herself at the door and
just firstly appreciate thatactually this child had been in
burnout, was happy, he wasrelaxed, and she could see that
in him
Leisa Reichelt (15:43):
Hmm.
Esther Jones (15:43):
and she was able to appreciate that.
And then rather than coming inand sort of sighing or whatever
she used to do, she was able tocome in and say, well, that
looks like fun.
what are you doing?
And he went, oh.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
And he pulled up a chair for herand she sat down with him and
they had an hour together wherehe explained all the things he
(16:04):
was doing, she had no ideaabout.
He was delighted'cause she wasinterested in his passion.
And then they moved away andwent to get dinner together in
the kitchen.
Can we come into where they arerather than creating that
resistance?
Can we meet them where they are?
Can we be curious and say, mychild's chosen to do something
(16:27):
that I can't see the value in,but my child's chosen it for
some reason, that to them isvalid.
I wonder what that reason is.
And it could be that they'reconnecting with people.
It could be that they're lovinggetting really good at
something, or it could be thatthey're bored.
It could be that they're lonely.
We can't possibly know unless wego in.
(16:48):
But the worst thing we do is go,well that's a terrible waste of
time.
I'm a good parent.
I'm gonna stop that immediately,'cause we don't know their lived
experience.
Leisa Reichelt (16:56):
Yeah.
Esther Jones (16:57):
so it's meeting them in that space.
Leisa Reichelt (17:00):
one of the things that has worked well for
me as long as I keep rememberingto try to do it, is to take the
value judgment out of gaming andsitting in front of your
computer.
I've started to, to my son whenhe's playing on his games,
going, what are you working on?
What are you working on at themoment?
And like treating it as thoughit's work.
And he's like, oh, well actuallyI'm trying to achieve this in
(17:20):
this amount of time
Esther Jones (17:21):
Hmm.
Leisa Reichelt (17:21):
he's got little projects that he's working on
and he's setting himself goalsand applying himself in a very,
structured way to achievingthese goals.
Esther Jones (17:30):
Right.
Leisa Reichelt (17:31):
good learning for the future.
Esther Jones (17:33):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I mean, we all wanna be good atthings and that way that he's
managing that is something thathe'll apply to other things.
And he's learning how he works.
What kind of goal does he needto motivate him?
When is it too high?
When is it too low?
How can he work through hisfrustration?
What does that look like?
I mean, these are tools forlife.
We're taught that content iseverything, and it really isn't,
Leisa Reichelt (17:54):
Hmm.
Esther Jones (17:55):
We all could pick up content when we need it.
And as our children get old andthey say, okay, I wanna
specialize in this and I wannago in that direction, they will
certainly be acquiring content,there's no doubt whatsoever.
But we kind of overvalue that,over perhaps their self
knowledge and how they work.
Leisa Reichelt (18:14):
Where I live in my part of Australia, there's
quite a robust curriculumrequirement from the government
that we need to demonstrate.
There's a tension between thatand unschooling.
And they're really big onShakespeare and so I have to, by
the end of the year, demonstratethat my son has engaged or he is
been given opportunities toengage with Shakespeare.
When I see him on his GeometryDash trying and trying to
(18:36):
achieve this goal, I'm like,that is better life skills than
Romeo and Juliet, like, let's bereal.
So that difference between theskills and the content is really
an interesting way to thinkabout it.
Esther Jones (18:49):
So something that's always blown my mind
about these guys is the breadthof their learning and this way
that things come in and they'llgather anything in, if it's
interesting.
And through that they'veacquired a vast general
knowledge.
My two older ones in particular,by the age of eight or nine,
they were both, I mean, theirhistory is just, off the charts
(19:10):
because that's what they'reinterested in.
it's that curiosity is, I foundit amazing to see that curiosity
and how it unfolds.
Leisa Reichelt (19:18):
Yeah.
it certainly is beautiful whenyou start to see that natural
learning and that,
Esther Jones (19:23):
Mm,
Leisa Reichelt (19:24):
engagement and that curiosity kind of spark
back is, it is beautiful.
That said, it doesn't stop thetriggers from triggering and,
Esther Jones (19:33):
no, it doesn't.
Leisa Reichelt (19:34):
anxiety and the, you know, am I doing the right
thing?
Am I doing it the right way tokind of keep coming back and
back and back?
You write about those thingsthat are really common triggers
for parents.
Can you talk us through whatsome of those are and how
they're experienced?
Esther Jones (19:50):
Yeah, so I think that a lot of it is fear-based.
We're just worried about it notbeing how it needs to be.
We're worried about doing aterrible job, and so we tend to
have the fear, and we will havethe reaction right.
And often the reaction may feelquite benign.
It may even look like goodparenting, right?
Where we go, right, that's it.
You've been there for two hours.
Time to come off.
(20:11):
And we, we kind of ticked a boxof our good parent when we do
that, even if we've ended up inconflict with our child.
Or we try to sneak learning in.
And we're like, okay, we'regonna bake, but I'm gonna make
him calculate this, from metricinto Imperial and then I'm gonna
make him measure it.
And, and we kind of end up kindof creating this and we sort of
(20:33):
suck the joy out of everything'cause we're so worried rather
than just having a lovely timebaking or, or whatever.
And so our anxiety and ourstress tends to just sort of
come into this space.
So I always think of it and Ithink it's helpful to think of
it as us holding a space for ourchild not going, okay, do
whatever you like, but holdingthis space where they can feel
their connection to us.
(20:55):
And where we are, they're kindof ally in it.
And I think it's good to think,what am I bringing into the
space?
So when we're bringing thesefears in, it's very hard for us
not to then project that ontoour child.
So our child, they need to seethat we are confident in them.
We trust them, we believe inthem.
You know, like we, all of thesewonderful things.
But what do they see when theylook at, as they see a sort of
(21:16):
anxious, worried mom or dad, abit concerned, nervous because
we're trying so hard to get itright, we end up sort of
sabotaging that very space thatwe're trying to hold.
It can be the tiniest things.
I find it remarkable.
Everything would be going fine.
And then I would suddenly think,well, I wonder what someone else
would think about this.
Leisa Reichelt (21:35):
Oh
Esther Jones (21:35):
And then I'd feel my heart go.
I go, oh my God.
Oh my goodness.
No one's learned anything allday, no one's done anything, but
we haven't done anything.
You know, so it would all belovely until I, that for me was
a particular one.
'cause I was, was, was a, Ithink at school I was an
approval seeker.
It's been a very big piece oflearning for me that if I'm
(21:55):
gonna advocate for my children,and I want my children to be
their full selves, I have tohold that, not necessarily
getting approval from certainpeople.
That's gonna be the nature ofthe beast, and I have to learn
to be with that rather thanfeeling the trigger reacting.
Requiring my children to dosomething to soothe my fear,
(22:19):
which is kind of what we'redoing, even though we don't feel
like it, we kind of want ourchildren to, okay, do some maths
or do some English, or make thislook like learning so that I
feel better
Leisa Reichelt (22:29):
Proof of learning,
Esther Jones (22:30):
proof of learning.
Leisa Reichelt (22:31):
Something that I've struggled with along the
way as well is because it isquite freeform and again, like
we're in the early stages, sowe're
Esther Jones (22:39):
Yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (22:40):
I'm looking for hints of learning more
Esther Jones (22:42):
Right.
Leisa Reichelt (22:42):
I would love my son to be deeply into his
history.
We're not there yet.
I feel like I am constantlytrying to look for ways that I
can prove to myself and that Icould prove to somebody else
that learning is happening.
Esther Jones (22:55):
Well, I think it's good to be open to the idea that
it can look like many things.
And so what I do encourage isnote it down at the end of the
day, not just the learning, butthe thing that felt good, that
he was super happy today.
That he came down to makehimself a sandwich.
That we sat and had a cup of teatogether, that he shared what
he's doing, that he told meabout a worry he has.
(23:15):
And then also noticing what arethe conversations we're having,
what things pop up.
Often it might be things about abusiness they wanna make or some
travel or something about thefuture, or just some deep dive
into some aspect of their game.
And so many people, and it'sdefinitely been my experience
talked about how conversation,just conversation, just talking
(23:36):
and ends up being the vehiclefor connection, for learning
about each other.
so see if you can see what isthere.
Because oftentimes what we aredoing when we're fear-based
we're saying, well, this isn'there and this isn't here.
And so we can't see what ishere.
that's such a shame because whatis here is doubtless very rich
(23:57):
in some way.
But because we are lookingsomewhere else and for other
things we panic and we can't seewhat we've got.
So we stopped seeing that.
Leisa Reichelt (24:08):
Yeah, and you described it as mindfulness in
action, which I thought wasreally useful just in terms of
watching for your own triggersas well as noticing the learning
and being in the moment, nottrying to
Esther Jones (24:20):
Right,
Leisa Reichelt (24:21):
shape it too much, and that really resonated
with me.
The main thing that we do forlearning is conversations.
That's how I feel learninghappening.
We started having conversationsabout American politics
recently.
I never thought he'd be theslightest bit interested in
that.
It's possible I'm foisting myown special interest onto him
accidentally.
But it started from Robloxactually.
'cause there's some legal actionhappening with Roblox.
(24:41):
And so he is like, oh, there'showever many states suing
Roblox.
And I'm like, I wonder ifthey're Democratic or Republican
states.
And he was like, I don't evenknow what that means.
What does that mean?
And so that just opened up lots.
So, and here we came backanother time.
So I've been looking into thisand this is what I've
discovered.
I'm like, huh,
Esther Jones (24:58):
I love that'cause that's often how it goes.
There's often a littleconversation and there's another
one that brings in a little bitof that one and then someone
else joins the conversation,brings in something else and
it's just, yeah, it's so richand it can absolutely come from
Roblox
Leisa Reichelt (25:12):
Mm-hmm.
Esther Jones (25:13):
That was the thing that I was so amazed by when we
started, was a day of"nothing"in inverted commas, led to so
much.
It was almost as though theideas were kind of percolating
all day and everyone wasthinking or doing or whatever,
and I maybe couldn't seeanything today, but tomorrow the
ideas and the things that comeup, because they had space, they
(25:36):
had space.
I always found that fascinating.
Leisa Reichelt (25:39):
My son's quite a slow, uh, he needs more time for
processing things
Esther Jones (25:43):
right.
Leisa Reichelt (25:44):
You don't get that in school.
It's all like, boom,
Esther Jones (25:46):
No.
Leisa Reichelt (25:46):
boom, boom.
But in this way of working, wecan have a little conversation.
It can sit for a couple of daysand then he'll come back in a
really thoughtful way.
Esther Jones (25:54):
Mm.
Leisa Reichelt (25:55):
to learn to not do that thing that you said,
which is go, oh, well why don'twe sit down and have a look at a
map of America and see whichstates are which, because like
that, he'll just go, I'm notgonna talk about that with mom
anymore'cause now she's gonnaturn it into an activity.
Esther Jones (26:08):
I love that.
Yes.
We've all done that.
We grab it and go, oh, here wego.
Leisa Reichelt (26:12):
I thought that was my job, right?
I thought that was my job, wasto go, oh, he is interested in
something, so how can I extendthis?
Esther Jones (26:19):
Hmm.
Leisa Reichelt (26:20):
doesn't work for us.
Esther Jones (26:22):
and sometimes it might be, but that's the tricky
thing of this.
Sometimes you might, Hey, youknow what?
And they'll go, oh, that's agood idea.
But I think this is where it'sso nuanced and this is where
we're sort of working out what'sthe thing here that would be
welcome?
And what's the thing here thatcreates resistance?
And oftentimes we can tellbecause of how we are bringing
(26:44):
it.
If I'm bringing my idea ofgetting the map out, because I
think that is how it could lookand that would feel good to me,
then he's probably gonna beresistant to the map now if I
can see that oh, he might lovethe idea of a map.
He might really enjoy that.
I'll let him know about that.
(27:05):
The idea will sound different tothe child as well.
They can tell when we're joiningtheir flow or when we're kind of
dumping something on them.
Leisa Reichelt (27:14):
I use, I wonder a lot more now.
I wonder if it's this or that.
I I wonder about that.
So you just sort of plant theseed of the idea of the question
that might not even, they mightnot be aware that that is a
possible question and then hefollows it or he doesn't follow
it.
The map thing is interestingthough, right?
Because for me it's like, ooh,my, in the back of my mind, I'm
going, I can map this togeography.
(27:35):
Now if I can just get a map out.
I can make this sound we've donesome geography stuff and put
that in the report and that willbe really helpful, but every
time I try to do that, it shutsthings down.
So I've just had to step backand trust the process.
Esther Jones (27:49):
Yeah.
there's a lot of trust involved.
And coming back to thosetriggers, in the book I
described this process of beingable to pause.
Noticing our own trigger,noticing when we are about to
say something or do somethingthat may not be helpful to the
situation.
just because we can't quite helpourselves, We spent all these
(28:10):
decades being like that,thinking like that.
Can we unravel that?
Can we undo that?
Noticing ourselves in ourbodies, how we are.
Are we tense?
Are we triggered?
Do we feel angry?
Do we feel frustrated?
And if we've got anything likethat going on.
Can we stop?
Can we give ourselves a momentto just be with that and
(28:30):
recognize that, and be kind tothat, bring some self-compassion
and say, can we calm our nervoussystem and then engage with our
child?
because then that engagement isgonna come from an entirely
different place.
And we can be curious again.
Because when we are triggered,we go into a kind of a tunnel
vision.
All we wanna do is solve it, andwe generally know exactly how we
(28:52):
want to solve it, right?
We know exactly what has tohappen and how it has to look.
Our job really, as we deschool,is to keep seeing kind of open
that space up again.
Leisa Reichelt (29:02):
Hmm.
Esther Jones (29:02):
Here I am in tunnel vision.
Can I widen my perspective?
Can I see what's actuallyhappening here?
Can I hear them?
Can I invite their voice in?
Can I get curious?
And that, although it's reallydifficult, really challenging is
the rich part.
I always say nothing is everwrong, actually.
If we can be curious about it,nothing's ever wrong.
(29:24):
It's only something to becurious about.
Something that gives us moreinformation, something that
allows us to connect moredeeply.
Even a really hard moments.
What's in it?
What am I learning here?
What's the connection here?
And allowing ourselves to feelbad as well.
That when it's hard, allowingthat difficult, it's really hard
work, you know?
I don't think any of us werereally meant to do this alone.
(29:47):
It's also hard because ideallywe would have more community
around us.
And particularly if you have achild who's in burnout, who's
anxious, they're probably notopen to being out in community.
That can be very isolating.
So there are things about thisthat make it objectively hard.
And so recognizing that ishelpful as well.
(30:09):
Making sure that you are superresourced, like what you need is
so important in all of this.
For me unschooling is reallyabout how do we live as humans?
How do we thrive as humans, asour whole selves, our unique
people?
Well, we are whole selves too,so we are also there.
We're part of our little familycommunity, so our needs matter
too.
And how do we bring them in andhow do we honor them?
(30:31):
I think that's a big part of it.
Leisa Reichelt (30:33):
I imagine that there are a lot of people who
are listening to this, who feelsuch a long, long, long way from
having their needs met.
There are a lot of folk who arereally stretched to the absolute
limit of what they can cope withat the minute.
So that sounds like such aunimaginable luxury.
Esther Jones (30:56):
Absolutely.
I would just say one thing tothose people, which is that
recognizing that you have needsand your needs are valid, even
if in that moment in time itappears to be, there was nothing
you can do.
Being kind to your own needsrather than telling yourself
you're doing a bad job and youshould be doing it better is
already a helpful step forward.
(31:17):
Even if that's just a calmingtouch, saying a little mantra,
you're doing the best you can.
You're doing the best you can,Be kind to yourselves within all
of this, and I think that'ssomething we neglect often.
Leisa Reichelt (31:29):
You have a whole chapter in the book, about
self-compassion, which I thoughtwas really helpful.
The link that you made betweenself-compassion and your own
nervous system I thought wasparticularly interesting'cause
we talk about co-regulation andthe importance of our child's
(31:50):
nervous system and therelationship between their
nervous system and our nervoussystem as being such an
important thing.
I'd never read about this linkbetween self-compassion and our
own nervous system regulation.
Can you talk about that a littlebit
Esther Jones (32:02):
Sure.
Well, first of all, how you areas a parent is the most
important thing for your child,I believe that if you had to
focus all day tomorrow only onyourself or as much on yourself
as possible and neglect quite alot of things you do around the
house you'd be doing everyone abig favor.
The way we are is so importantfor our children, and it's so
(32:23):
normal that we becomedysregulated when our child's
dysregulated.
'cause that's how nervoussystems work.
A dysregulated nervous systemwill set us on edge.
Now if we get set on edge, andthat then triggers deeper
thoughts of our own.
Like, here I go again.
I'm doing it wrong.
Everyone must think I'm afailure.
What would my mom think of this?
(32:44):
Imagine if the teacher at schoolsaw me now.
all of these awful thoughts andI think, what would you say to
your friend?
If it was your friend, would yousay that to them?
No.
What would you do to it for afriend?
Can you do that for yourself?
Because when it's a friend inthat situation, We explain that,
It's not your fault at all.
You're doing a wonderful job.
You're doing the best you can.
(33:05):
We say that to help them soothetheir nervous system.
Now, if we can bringself-compassion to ourselves.
We can help our nervous systemcome down.
when we're telling ourselveswe're doing a bad job we are
ramping it up and making it evenharder for ourselves, and for
our child.
One of the biggest tools Ilearned, was at a time when, my
(33:27):
child would become verydysregulated when he was
distressed.
It was incredibly challenging.
I'm sure there's peoplelistening who have this
situation.
I think it's more common than wethink.
People don't talk about it somuch, but we'd have these
terrible meltdowns, which couldbe quite scary.
I learned that simple techniqueof bringing my hand to my heart
and saying, this is all gonnaland okay, it's gonna land okay.
(33:52):
Or it's okay.
It's okay.
And I would just bring my handto my chest, to my heart.
it sounds so gentle, so soft,but it was so impactful for me.
Because it reminded me that thisis hard.
This is parenting to a power ofa thousand.
Most people don't ever have todo this.
This is very difficult and Ifound that it was so helpful to
me, As my nervous system camedown, his would come down.
(34:15):
And over time we found a way tonavigate those moments.
And then those moments reallystopped happening because there
was enough space the spacebecame much easier.
and so yeah, it's part ofco-regulation.
It's also just part of holdingthat space in a way that feels
good by being kind to ourselves.
I think it's a huge part.
(34:36):
I think it's step one,
Leisa Reichelt (34:38):
One of the funny things for me is that, my story
that I tell myself is that ifI'd have done a better job, I
would've got on top of thissituation much earlier.
My son wouldn't have had as muchdistress and trauma as he'd had,
and we wouldn't be here.
So I deserve this because Ididn't do a good job earlier,
and so none of this, oh, oh,you're a good mom.
You've tried, you know, none ofthat lands because I have such a
(35:00):
strong story, but reading yourchapter, gave me an incentive to
let that go because it would begood for my child.
I could let that story gobecause it's gonna help my
child, which, is probably notthe way you're supposed to do
it, but if it works, who cares?
Esther Jones (35:14):
I think one of the biggest things in unschooling
and one of the most inspiringparts of it is that we are
showing our children or we aredoing the best we can to show
our children what it looks liketo live a good life.
I often think, how would I likemy child to manage this moment
at my age?
Well, I'd like them to be kindto themselves.
(35:35):
Well, then I have to show that.
And show your child, no, itmatters to me to take care of
myself.
And it will matter to you whenyou are an adult to take care of
yourself.
So sometimes I think if we canframe it in a what do I want to
show my child?
That can sometimes give us thatlittle path in because I think
what you're talking about isreally common.
(35:56):
So where's our little path intowhat gives us permission to be
self-compassionate?
Leisa Reichelt (36:02):
Yeah, because it's a better way to look after
our kids is what works for
Esther Jones (36:05):
Well, if that's the way into it.
Leisa Reichelt (36:09):
Exactly.
Esther, I feel a compulsion tohave a sense of what my job is
as a parent who's doingunschooling.
Can you help me understandwhat's my job?
what am I supposed to do?
Esther Jones (36:25):
I think if we go back to that, we're doing many
things if we think of it asbeing our child's ally.
Our most fundamental part, is tohold a non-judgmental space.
It's to hold the space withinwhich people can feel relaxed.
Those nervous systems can relaxwhen they're with us.
They don't feel judged orcriticized.
I think that's the mostimportant part.
And then really facilitating,just noticing, some of this will
(36:49):
be looking for books on thingsthey're interested in Or some of
it will be talking with themabout what they're enjoying.
So, I think it's important tosee what could we bring to the
home that's interesting.
How can we keep lifeinteresting?
If you have a child that doesn'tlike to go out, if you've got
any interesting friends that cancome around, films that you can
put on, you know, keep thepossibilities of life alive,
(37:09):
let's say.
So it would depend very much onevery child.
I mean, I'll give you someexamples My oldest son, who was
a real gamer.
A lot of it was just sort ofunderstanding his gaming.
It's always been about talkingwith him about political
systems, economics, all of thethings that he loved in his
gaming.
With him, it's been a lot ofconversation.
He had a lot of social anxiety,so around the age of 13, 14, he
(37:30):
wanted to start doing moregroups and things.
So a lot of it was helping him,transition into being in more
groups.
So if you have a child who getssocial anxiety, for them to take
that at their own pace, I thinkis such an advantage because
they're able to say, yeah, thisfeels like a good space for me,
or No, this doesn't.
And again, that wisdom aroundwhat feels safe, what feels
(37:54):
good.
And so for him, it's been a lotabout moving out into the world
and trying out new things and meaccompanying him.
I would really say whatever yourchild wants, and some child
might want quite a lot ofstructure.
Some child might not, you know,and again, just getting curious
about that.
My middle child actually went toschool for about five months.
He decided he would try out thelocal school.
(38:16):
Unschooling can include school.
Because they are exploring life.
What does it look like to helpthem in their exploration of
life?
What does that look like today?
Leisa Reichelt (38:26):
Hmm.
Esther Jones (38:27):
and sometimes it may look like very little and
sometimes it may look like agreat adventure.
and sometimes it may look likethem trying out school.
And then making yourrelationship the most important
thing.
Sometimes I have a joke.
I was interviewing someone frommy podcast and we were talking
about what we do and I wassaying I think there's something
about just being a benignpresence in the house, just
(38:48):
being a nice person to bearound.
You know, they come in thekitchen and mom doesn't say,
what are you doing today?
She says, you want a cup of tea?
It's everything.
It's so small, but it'severything, you know?
And the space becomesinvitational.
and that requires us being okaytoo.
It's very important that we arefeeling as good as we can in
(39:10):
order to be able to do that.
I would add something to thatbecause we are the adult here.
We are the parent.
We do have more livedexperience.
Of course, I have always been acouple of years ahead
Leisa Reichelt (39:20):
I,
Esther Jones (39:21):
so far as what are the potential opportunities in
our area for them, that kind ofthing.
I think there's no harm at allin thinking well at 14, all
these things open up.
At 16, all these things open up.
At 18, there are thesepossibilities.
You don't have to share themwith your child.
You may and the child may say,no, that's not for me.
That's fine.
(39:41):
But you can be keeping an eyeout, bringing things in,
noticing.
I think that's really importantthat we are doing that.
'cause we do have some sense of,we have a sense of the system as
well.
We have a sense of when theymight want to rejoin that
system.
Leisa Reichelt (39:55):
Hmm.
Esther Jones (39:55):
Right, and at what points might that work for them?
So all of that, I would be fullyembracing of it all
Leisa Reichelt (40:02):
I've started putting ideas of things that we
could potentially do on littleindex cards and giving him a
little stack
Esther Jones (40:09):
Hmm.
Leisa Reichelt (40:09):
When you're ready, have a look at these.
They're just some thoughts.
If there's anything in therethat you think might be of
interest, let me know.
If not, that's fine too.
And routinely, tells me howrubbish all of my ideas are, but
the other day he chose one, so,hooray.
Esther Jones (40:23):
Right.
There you go.
Leisa Reichelt (40:24):
I think that brings us to one of the other
triggers, right?
Which is, if I go down thispathway, how is this gonna limit
them in the rest of their life?
What kind of opportunities am Icutting off by choosing this
pathway?
How should we think about that?
Esther Jones (40:39):
Yeah, so I think that's normal.
I certainly had that when webegan.
My own lived experience and thatof many people I know is that
our children as they grow olderstay in that place of
understanding themselves andknowing what feels good for
them.
They're very connected to whatthey want to do.
My 17-year-old, for example,last year at 16, went to a sixth
(41:02):
form college, which is like thetwo last years of high school.
Leisa Reichelt (41:04):
Mm-hmm.
Esther Jones (41:05):
so that he could then go to university.
So he did the exams he needed todo, he did them from home and it
took about seven months.
He got just what he needed.
That was his goal, and he got aplace and he's loving it.
He's having a great time.
It's very easygoing.
It's no uniform, it's first nameterms with the, you know, it's
all very respectful and hereally enjoying that.
(41:25):
And he's very interesting'causehe notices like, so there's one
class that he doesn't much enjoybecause he feels like nobody
really wants to be there andthey're not enthusiastic enough
because he's there a hundredpercent.
He's there out of choice.
He knows he doesn't have to bethere.
And he is also so used to doinghis own thing.
He's very self-directed, He isenthusiastic, he's
(41:46):
self-directed.
I only see that he's really wellset up for it.
So that's been very interesting.
And then my oldest son, whofinds classroom learning,
particularly galling, he's a farmore hands-on experimental guy.
he just finished a two yearcollege further education thing
in performing arts.
Leisa Reichelt (42:06):
Hmm.
Esther Jones (42:07):
in a small group he did a lot of writing.
it was so interesting.
I can't see that there wasanything missing.
Particularly in any kind of workthat's required thinking,
creative thinking, having theirown thoughts, they're so used to
doing that.
so I think that if a kid did goback in they could find it
difficult, to settle into thatroutine of things.
(42:27):
But I think if they're there outof choice.
'cause this is what makes senseto them.
They kind of make it work.
They're much wiser than we thinkthey will be.
They have a lot of capacity.
There might be some catching upto do in some area, but we
didn't even find that.
So my experience has been that,they know how to learn, they
know how they learn.
And there's many ways of sort ofslotting back in later on.
Leisa Reichelt (42:50):
Amazing.
so wrapping up.
for folk who are coming at this,particularly through that School
Can't lens.
So we've tried school that's notworked and probably, this is
like a last resort kind ofsituation.
and eventually, hopefully we seethat
Esther Jones (43:09):
Yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (43:09):
great place to be.
How should we think about thattransition from school, and the
difficulties there into anunschooling way of thinking and
being.
Esther Jones (43:22):
Yeah, I would focus entirely on relationship,
connection and feeling okay.
And I would drop everythingelse.
You know?
Nothing is learned in stress, inanxiety.
I would focus on making thingsfeel as good and safe as
possible.
Be their safe space.
(43:42):
Enjoy them.
See them for who they are.
See the wonderful parts of them,and reflect those back at them.
Don't reflect back at them thatthey've failed, that you've
failed.
I know that's really hard, butkeep questioning that narrative.
Keep questioning it.
Find voices that you enjoylistening to.
Find podcasts like yours.
(44:03):
Find people that have walkedthat path and hold onto those.
But more than anything, try tocome back to seeing your child
as a whole person, as you, as awhole person, as absolutely
enough, and just focus on yourwellbeing, your happiness.
If you are happy today and youdo nothing, you are happy today
and that's fantastic and thething will come
Leisa Reichelt (44:25):
That's a lot better than where a lot of us
are right now.
Esther Jones (44:28):
right?
Leisa Reichelt (44:28):
That's fantastic advice.
Thank you so much.
It's been wonderful to talk toyou today.
I know you have a ton of helpfulresources, including the
upcoming book.
Where's the best place for us tofind out about all of that?
Esther Jones (44:43):
So the book, has been out for about a week or so.
it's called, the ParentsHandbook to Unschooling
Yourself.
And, otherwise if you go to mywebsite, which is
esther-jones.com, everything isthere as well.
My podcast is there.
You can access my writing fromthere and get in touch, my
courses, whatever.
And I'm always really delightedto hear from people, Whatever
(45:04):
your situation.
So do reach out.
Leisa Reichelt (45:06):
Well, i'll put links to all of that in the
notes so that you can accessthem easily.
Alright, thank you so much,Esther.
It's been fantastic to talk.
Appreciate it.
Esther Jones (45:15):
Thank you very much.
Bye.
Leisa Reichelt (45:17):
Well, I loved talking to Esther, and I hope
you found something reallyhelpful in that conversation as
well.
I've put a link to Esther'swebsite in the episode notes,
and you can go there to find allthe great resources she has
available and to dive moredeeply into understanding
unschooling.
If you have found our podcasthelpful, please do take a moment
to subscribe or give us a ratingor a review.
(45:39):
You will be our favorite peopleand it really does help us get
the podcast in front of morepeople who have School Can't
kids, and who haven't yet foundour community and all the
information and support that weshare.
If you have some feedback forus.
Perhaps you have a suggestionfor a future topic or a guest,
or maybe you'd like to shareyour own lived experience of
(46:00):
School Can't.
Please drop me an email toschoolcantpodcast@gmail.com.
I would love to hear from you.
If you are a parent or carer inAustralia and you are feeling
distressed, remember you canalways call the Parent Helpline
in your state.
A link with the number to callis in the episode notes.
From the 31st of October, theVictorian government is shutting
down their Parent Helpline,which is very disappointing.
(46:23):
I have put a link to protestthis in the episode notes if you
are inclined to do so.
Thank you again for listening.
We will talk again soon.
Take care.
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