#38 - Successful School Transitions with Louise White and Tiffany Westphal - The School Can't Experience

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leisa Reichelt (00:05):
Hello and welcome to the School Can't
Experience Podcast.
I'm Leisa Reichelt, and thispodcast is brought to you by the
School Can't Australiacommunity.
Caring for a young person who isstruggling to attend school can
be a stressful and isolatingexperience, but you are not
alone.
Thousands of parents acrossAustralia and many more around
the world face similarchallenges and experiences every

(00:26):
day.
Today's conversation is atopical one.
As we approach the end of theschool year, believe it or not.
Many of us are probably alreadythinking about what the next
year is going to hold.
And today we are talking aboutsetting our kids up for
successful school transitions.
What are the things that weshould be thinking about to help

(00:47):
make sure our kids are bestprepared for a successful
transition into next year?
Whether that's primary schoolkids changing classes and
teachers.
Or for our primary school kidswho are transitioning into high
school, which is a huge change.
These can be real make or breaktimes for our kids and big
triggers for School Can'texperiences and, as we are going

(01:09):
to learn today, there is plentythat parents and schools can be
doing to try to set kids up forsuccessful transitions.
We're going to be talking withTiffany Westphal from School
Can't Australia, and also we aremeeting Louise White, who has
just completed her PhD, lookingat supporting autistic students
with transitions.
I hope you enjoy ourconversation.

(01:30):
Okay.
Louise White, Tiffany Westphal,thank you for joining us on our
podcast today.

Louise White (01:37):
No problem

Fantastic.
Well, let's get started bygetting to know you a little bit
and maybe particularly what isyour interest or experience when
it comes to transitions atschool?
Kids working throughtransitional times at school.
Lou, do you wanna kick us off?

My children call me almost Dr Louise White
because my thesis is submittedand under examination.
So my research looked atsupporting autistic students
with transitions particularlyyoung adults moving into
adulthood I'm autistic myselfand have two autistic children
and we have persistently foundtransitions to be probably our

(02:17):
biggest challenge.
And when I went to the researchto try and find what I could do
to support my kids better therejust wasn't a lot of it So that
took me down that research road.
I am a teacher as well so I havetaught in the United Kingdom and
in Australia.
I've taught primary and highschool.
And again I've found differencesin how transitions are

(02:38):
approached in the UK and inAustralia And I think that I can
offer a lot in the conversationwith regards to the experience
of what I have in the UK where Ithink they do transitions quite
well.

Tiffany, let's hear your story.

Tiffany Westphal (she/her) (02:49):
I've got three autistic kids.
Two of them are adults and theyoungest is 17.
I've always done a lot oflegwork in preparing them for
transitions, especially myyoungest one.
I remember how much effort ittook as a parent.
Educating a new teacher at thebeginning of every year all

(03:10):
through primary school.
And then the anxiety of goinginto high school and having to,
this idea of educating a, awhole tonne of teachers, and not
being on the doorstep at dropoff or pick up.
And having to train my child inhow to advocate for themselves.
yeah, So transitions have alwaysbeen that I've had some anxiety

(03:31):
about because I know that it cango terribly pear shaped and make
the wheels quite wobbly veryearly on in a school year as we
transition from one year toanother.
But even transitions from schoolholidays back to school, Or from
a weekend back to school on aMonday can be difficult.

(03:52):
I'm also a social worker andhelp support others with
transitions as well.

We are pushing this episode out to folks in
November, not in January.
Why worry about that transitionnow when we can forget it all
through the holidays and dealwith it when it comes.

Tiffany Westphal (she/h (04:12):
Because transition's about having a game
plan and being prepared.
There's a lot that we can do inthe lead up to a transition to
set the scene, and pave the wayfor a smooth transition.
Lots of our neurodivergent kidsin particular, or children with
a traumatic background or adifficult past at school carry a
high stress load as they'regoing generally through school

(04:36):
life and transitions adds anextra stressor on top the stress
burden that they carry.

Louise.
Why do some people findtransitions so difficult?
What are the factors that maketransitions really hard for some
of our kids and some of usadults as well to be honest.

So transition equals change.
Even if that change may seemminor it may seem you know not a
significant thing.
But for the individual who isexperiencing that change it can
be very big.
I'll talk about autistic kids alittle bit because that is my
area where I know a lot aboutand being autistic myself.
Autistic people and I wouldhazard as a guess a lot of

(05:16):
children who are experiencingSchool Can't have a tendency
called intolerance ofuncertainty.
So if you don't know preciselywhat's happening, if you're not
absolutely certain about what'scoming the tendency is to expect
the worst.
And we certainly know that'squite prevalent in autistic
children.
And what it means is if youdon't have great detail about
what's happening, you are goingto think it's going to be bad.

(05:39):
So you can imagine in atransition, all the things that
are changing and all the thingsthat are going to be different
if you don't have certaintyabout all of those things and
you are imagining the worst it'sa recipe for disaster.
Which is why what Tiffany saidwas so true.
November is when we need to bethinking about this because the

(06:00):
more of that uncertainty we cantake away and the more solid
truth about what's happening wecan give these children, the
more likely they are to have asuccessful transition.
So I think we know with autisticchildren there's a lot of
characteristics of autism thatwould even add to that even
more.
We like routine, we likeregularity, we like structure.

(06:22):
So when you move, all thosethings change.

The other thing I was thinking of is that, for
our neurodivergent kids, socialbonds and relationships can be
quite hard won.
And the end of the school yearand coming back to the new year,
you know that bond with ateacher or teachers, the bonds
with the kids in your class, Idunno, depending on where you
are, maybe you get to stay inthe same class with the same

(06:46):
kids.
But where I am, that's not thecase.
everything gets thrown up andput back together again.
I wonder whether that's a bigcontributing factor as well.

Yes it definitely is.
There's research that shows thatin a transition It's not only
having to form all those newrelationships but mourning the
ones that are lost.
So that is one thing that I amquite passionate for when I'm
advocating for children is if achild who we know experiences
difficulty with transitionparticularly an autistic child
if we know they have friends, weknow they have peers that

(07:17):
they're successful with pleasekeep them together.
For those children it's not awant.
It's actually a need Just thatone little action.
I've seen it happen where youkeep them with their peers and
then all the other potentiallydifficult things that could have
happened, they don't happenbecause that peer is their
anchor.
The person that they can go towhen they're confused, they can
give them the social supportthey need, help them with their

(07:40):
work.
It's that it's just sobeneficial.
I would really ask schools tothink about that not as a want
but as a need.

I think the other aspect to this,
and you sort of touched on it,Louise, is attunement to a
student and their nervous systemand what supports they need.
And that takes time to developin a relationship between a
student and a teacher.
It's really, hard work when thatattunement doesn't exist, or is

(08:08):
still in its infancy.
It means that the young person'sneeds go unseen for longer, and
that in itself is a stressor,particularly if they aren't able
to advocate for themselves aboutwhat they need, and the supports
they need.

Let's dig into a couple of different contexts.
Because I think if you've gotprimary school, K to six aged
kids, the transition is quitedifferent than it is if you are
transitioning into high schoolor throughout high school.
Let's start with the youngerkids.

(08:41):
If folks who are listening havegot somebody in that K to six
range, and they're thinkingabout what they could be doing
now to start to prepare to makethe beginning of next year go as
well as it can.
What are the kinds of thingsthat parents could be doing with
their kid and with the school?

And let's also put this in the
context of you might be changingschools too, at this age,
because I think the advice isthe same.
So whether you're changingschools or just going to a new
grade with a new teacher thefollowing year.
One of the first things I usedto do was write a letter saying,
hello, this is my kid.
This is me.
And I'm this young person'ssupport person.

(09:22):
We've been on this journeytogether for quite some time,
I'm wanting to be known.
That's my first goal is just tobe known and, to flag that we
require some support.
I put into that initial emailthe history that requires us to
have this support.
Why the student is vulnerable,what the stressors are, what the

(09:45):
difficulties have been, thatthey may justify the need for
some attention and getting onthe front foot.
Often there's not resources at aschool or they don't see the
need to, and there's a wait tofail model because that's
cheaper, it's less timeintensive upfront.

(10:05):
But it often means that it'svery time intensive and results
in some harm that causesdifficulty in the longer term,
unfortunately.
That initial letter wouldexplain what's worked in the
past, and what the concerns areabout transition, and some
suggestions about the kind ofteacher that might work best

(10:27):
with the child and with me asthe supportive adult.
And also just some suggestionsabout building relationship and
anything about peers too.
So, know, be helpful if therewas a supportive peer in the
class.
We've had this teacher in thepast and that wasn't helpful for
us.
Any of those sorts of insights,and you need to get this to the

(10:50):
school in early November.
It's at that time that they'restarting to have conversations
about class makeups and who'sgonna be in what class with
which teacher.

I would really agree with all that advice that
Tiffany's just given andreflecting on my teaching
experience in the UK where therewas more of a focus on that
transition.
There was a real understandingthat if we get that transition
right we're probably gonna savea lot of problems early in the
following year.
The sorts of things we used towork with parents to do is if

(11:20):
you know your child is going tobe likely to have some
difficulty in the transition.
Please come and see us, let usknow.
And we would be really keen totalk about trying to put
strategies in that plan based onour conversation with the
parents.
Really collaborative process.
We know across all avenues ofeducational research that

(11:41):
collaboration leads to the bestoutcomes.
So we would be inviting thatconversation with the parent and
asking them are there supportivepeers that would be helpful for
them to be placed with, whatsort of strategies work for your
child.
And we'd be wanting to startthat transition process early.
So I worked in a school whereevery Thursday morning we taught
our next year's class for thewhole of term four.

(12:01):
So I already had a relationshipwith those students before they
even came into my classroom.

Yeah, Louise, my kids started their education in
the UK and now that you'retalking about it, I feel like I
remember that the year groupstayed together from year to
year.
They didn't, throw everyone upin the air and then drop
everyone back into classesagain.
Doing that sort of teaching theyear before becomes possible
when you're not trying torebuild the jigsaw puzzle all of

(12:26):
the time, doesn't it?

Yeah But

Why do we not do that here?

Even if we're not gonna move to that model and if
we are gonna do the mixingclasses up thing which doesn't
make sense to me but that's howit is still decisions can be
made about classes earlier andthen we can do things.
There's been schools that I'vesupported where they do a whole
school transition day.
It's only one day but it'sbetter than no day.
Everyone goes into their nextyear's class with their next
year's peers with their nextyear's teacher So that first day

(12:51):
back it's not the first timethey've been in there.
Some schools do book drop offthat's great if they can do a
book drop off and the kids cancome in, in the holidays and
just spend time in that roomwith that teacher And if you
know your child particularlywith an autistic child if you
know that they have a specialinterest if the teacher's open
to oh guess what I just have allthese dinosaurs over here that
one little bond is all it takes.

(13:12):
One connection, and then thatchild is like wow this person
likes dinosaurs, I likedinosaurs.
It's gonna be a good year

My experience of primary school in New South
Wales is that for most kids,they come back to school for
that first week.
And the school is saying, wehaven't finalized the classes
yet.
We don't know, because they'rewaiting to see how many kids
actually turn up for school sothat they know how many actual
teachers they're gonna have sothat they can actually finalize
the classes.
My experience was that if youhad an autistic child, they got

(13:41):
a special exception.
But even that, the specialexception thing is a mixed
blessing in a way too, isn't it?
Because like, well, why do youknow your teacher and I don't
know, my teacher

I've got a couple experiences where,
with my youngest, we had theschool start as early as they
possibly could.
They would assign her to ateacher, in December.
Usually the kids found out onthe last day of school who their
teacher was for the next year inprimary school.
But she would usually know acouple weeks in advance.
Or at a minimum a week inadvance.

(14:12):
The teacher would know the weekprior and they would start
developing a relationship withher.
It would just be, stopping, whenthey're on yard duty having a
conversation.
We arranged for her teacher tosend her on errands to the other
teacher's classroom or takethings across to the other room
or help out by listening toother students read.
I remember my eldest son, he wasreally fortunate.

(14:33):
He had the same teacher inprimary school for three of his
primary school years.

Wow.

None of my other children got that.
It just happened by accident.
I don't think it was planned.
'cause the school actually had apolicy of you not having the
same teacher two years in a rowfor some reason.

Tiffany, you talk about the desire to be
known and sort of put thosedemands onto the school.
Reflecting on my own experiencewhen my kids were much younger
and I had fewer battle scars Ialways felt my job was to do the
opposite, to not be the annoyingparent, to try to acquiesce and,

(15:12):
fit in and not make lifedifficult for them as much as
possible.
And I think at various pointsthe school has reinforced that
as if to say this is a verydifficult job we're doing here.
We need to be fair to everybody.
I can't give everybody what theywant.
Back off basically, I'd beinterested in your reflections
on that.

Tiffany Westphal (she/her (15:32):
Look, if one is coming in and
attacking, yes, it can feel likethat, but I saw my role as being
one that was gonna make theirjob easier.
I'm giving information, becauseyou, as the child's parent, are
the continuous person throughthe child's entire life.
you've seen everything, you'vegot the history.

(15:54):
And I don't know yet the schoolthat keeps records adequately
enough that, or does handoversadequately enough that a teacher
knows all the things that aparent knows about their child.
You can't, you know, you've got20 something kids in your class,
and if you're at high school,you've got a lot more kids that
you're responsible for.
So I always, I couched it interms of, I really hope that we

(16:18):
have a great relationshipworking together.
I'm really excited and lookingforward to the opportunity to
work with you and my child toensure they have a really great
year at school.
This is what I know from thepast, and this is what I know
works.
This is what I know will causeus difficulties, and they're
usually really happy to havethat information it's gonna make

(16:40):
their life easier, you know?
I didn't see myself as being thedifficult parent.
I did say once to a schoolprincipal, look, if you don't
give us this support, I'm gonnaturn into the difficult parent,
because I'll be sitting outsideyour office at least once a week
or once a fortnight with aproblem that needs solving, and
it'll be your job to fix it.

Across all the literature on parental advocacy
in schools, we know that thebest outcomes come for children
whose parents are advocates fortheir children, who feel
confident in doing that And evenin my research I found that
schools often know that parentsare the biggest supporters,
especially during transition.
That definitely was a finding ofmy research that it is the

(17:24):
family and parents who are thebiggest advocates.
So please don't feel reluctantto have that conversation.
You're not"that parent".
There is no such thing as"thatparent".
You are your child's advocateand there's no better advocate
than you.
And teachers know that.
I would've loved to have 15minutes with Tiffany before I
had her child just to save methe three weeks it was gonna
take to work it out.

(17:45):
Teachers do want to know that.
Please don't feel afraid.
You're not"that parent".
"That parent" doesn't exist

That parent does sometimes exist
though, Louise.
Especially if we carry traumaand our child has been really
hurt by that, then you've got anangry parent, you've got a
mistrustful parent, you've got aparent relationship with staff,
has been broken or damaged insome way, and that is
challenging and that can comeacross as"that parent".

I think the other thing that I reflect on is
that sometimes it can be onething to talk to the teacher and
then different thing to talk tothe school.
Right.
and, schools, they're massivebig production lines, aren't
they?
Right.
They've got a lot of things tobalance and not a lot of
resources and a lot of very busyburned out people who really
don't need extra levels ofdifficulty to be added to their

(18:33):
everyday.
And I appreciate that.
I also think that, it's notuncommon for teachers to think
that you might have a moresubjective view of your child.
And we know that how our child'sperceived at school and how they
behave at home can be reallydifferent as well.
If you are a parent who hasinteracted with your school and

(18:54):
not necessarily always had the,oh, I'm so glad you're coming to
us and talking about this andyou're getting more of the look,
they're fine.
It's no big deal.
Especially in those early times,before we're at the failure
point, before the wheels totallycome off.
Because what we would love isfor these kids to be able to get
support before things get reallybad.

(19:15):
I think that's the thing.
And to encourage parents to tryto reach out and feel confident
having those conversations whenthings aren't terrible before
they get terrible.
Because I look back, that's whatI wish I'd done, but I also feel
as though I was rebuffed on acouple of occasions because it's
like, he's fine.
You don't need to worry.
We've done this a million times,step back and let us do our

(19:36):
thing.

And I would say to both educators
and parents, don't wait tillthere's a problem to have a
connection between the two ofyou.
When you're in distress and yourchild is in distress, and
sometimes our children are inreally severe distress, our
nervous systems are heightened,we sometimes don't think
clearly.
We sometimes respond in an angryway.

(19:58):
So make sure you've got thatfoundation of a connection, of a
just reach out and say, hi, thisis me.
This is my child.
This is what's worked before.
This is what doesn't work.
I just wanna give you the headsup.
This is how you can contact meif you notice things.
And I have noticed thatsometimes things don't go well
and I will communicate with you.

(20:20):
That's my role as a parent tolet you know when I'm seeing
that there's a problem comingup.
I always write.
that introductory letter at thebeginning of the year as soon as
I know who the teacher is.
I also give updates at the endof every term or whenever
there's a problem.
I'll communicate, you know, I'mnoticing increased distress

(20:40):
about this.
If I know what it is.
I'm noticing this at home, youmay not be aware

Okay, so I'm getting a sense that the
recommendation is to, as far aspossible, communicate through
the classroom teacher ratherthan to the leadership team of
the school and have that teacheradvocate on your child's behalf

Yes.

And then if you are a parent who is not able to
do school drop offs and picksregular emails can be a good way
to do that.
'cause like, again, I hear tellof teachers complaining about
all the emails they get fromparents, but that's,

Tiffany Westphal (she/ (21:20):
remember that teachers are busy.
and so you know save thecommunication for the important
stuff.

Hmm.

you just need to make that
connection, I think.
And they'll often give you, youknow, a, a, a parent teacher
interview spot early in theyear.
think that it's really helpfulto have that connection before,
not to wait, several weeks intothe year because there can be
some really critical stuff thatneeds to communicated quite
early on.

All right, so let's recap then.
The top tips for folks who arefacing down a K to five
transition in the coming months.

Have communication strategy.
Think ahead.
Communicate what's worked in thepast and what hasn't worked.
And, the importance of beingknown as well.
I think those would be my topfive.
Would you add anything to that?

Yeah I would add the word proactive and and just
know that as a parent there'slittle things you can do
yourself So we for examplethroughout the whole summer
holidays we keep driving pastthe school.
Every time we're in the car wedrive past the school and remind
ourselves, this is the school,there's the gate We keep that
familiarity going.
And talking to the school aboutcan they give you some resources

(22:37):
to use over the holidays.
So can they give you a photo ofthe teacher for next year.
I've used Google Maps to printout a bird's eye view of the
school and we've played PeppaPig in the playground in the
school during the summerholidays to get us ready to go
back.
How can you keep thatfamiliarity going.
And I guess that fits underproactive a little bit You know
we're gonna take some proactivesteps here so that you don't

(22:58):
forget what school is cause sixweeks is a long time to not be
in a place and then you'resuddenly back.

And then all those comms, those proactive
communications are to thecurrent classroom teacher to try
to get that connection with nextyear's teacher sooner rather
than later.

The other thing I'd add, Leisa, is
it's also about thinking abouthow much energy it takes for a
young person to do something newand making sure that we are not
double loading them so thatwe're creating space in their
lives around these times oftransition too.
I used to always say, if yourchild's starting a new school,

(23:36):
maybe pull back on the swimminglessons and sporting commitments
and have some downtime and dothings that help nervous systems
rest and restore and reset.

Excellent tip.
Alright then what about thoselucky folk who have got kids who
are about to transition fromprimary school into high school?
And I know schools do try tohelp all the kids start to get
ready for that transition,

I've done this three times with my
kids.
I think a lot of the same stuffapplies about being known and
communicating and getting thatconnection.
When your child grows up into ateen.
We need to transition from doingthe advocacy for them to
developing capacity toself-advocate, in the moment

(24:21):
and, more broadly and generally.
And so I say to families.
I think it's really importantthat even when they're in
primary school, we start toconsciously talk to them about
advocacy and about self-advocacyand self knowledge about what
works for me and what doesn'twork for me.
And use language about whathelps me feel safe and what

(24:44):
helps me be my best self atschool.
And I use a gradual releasemodel when I'm talking to
parents about this to say firstoff, our young person needs to
watch us doing advocacy.
So you need to start invitingyour child to observe you
advocating and havingconversations with teachers.
Now, it's helpful if yourteacher knows that you are doing
this so that they don't behavein a really scary way.

(25:09):
So observing and then watchingthe way that mum or dad does it.
And then the next stage is kindof scripting this sort of
conversation you have with yourchild about what they need to
talk to the teacher about, andhow will we talk to the teacher,
what will we say?
And some coaching.
So I'll come with you and you'llsay this, and if you lose your

(25:33):
words, I'll step in and providesupport.
And we're gradually movingthrough developing confidence so
that eventually they can do itthemselves.
It's called a gradual releasemodel.
It's if you've already startedthat before they get to high
school.
But, the expectation is thatyoung people in high school are
gonna be a lot more independent.

(25:54):
It happens so suddenly thisswitch, lots of our young people
who are carrying a high stressload they need support with this
for longer before they becomeindependent self-advocates.
It's really hard work if youhave to advocate with each
teacher in high school, and it'smuch easier if you have a

(26:14):
learning diversity coordinatoror a year level coordinator, or
a wellbeing coordinator who canhave those conversations with
all the teachers, and conveyinformation to all the teachers.
You still have the one-on-oneconversations with teachers, by
email or in face-to-facemeetings, but there should be
one person who's responsible.

(26:36):
If you've got a young teen who'svulnerable in any way, who's
likely to have a poor transitionexperience just because they're
carrying a high stress burden.

Yeah I would add to that because we're on this
journey now the very first thingI did even at my son at when he
went to the interview at theschool was I actually had a
letter from his psychologistthat had recommended strategies
for what could be useful for himthrough the transition.
But also I would reallyencourage parents and schools
not to think of the transitionjust as from point A to point B

(27:06):
It's the ongoing support that'srequired.
So we had a letter ready and wegave that letter to the school
at the interview.
Then it was a reaching out to meactually They reached out to me
so we had a meeting and wediscussed what was feasible for
the school.
He's having extra visits to theschool.
So they often do the usualtransition days where they take

(27:26):
the whole cohort but he'sactually getting I think two or
three extra visits and one ofthem's a really fun visit.
It's a scavenger hunt and youknow they they're making it
really fun He's seen the placehe can go when he's not feeling
regulated and ready.
He's seen that place.
He already feels comfortable inthat place.
So it's that, I'm gonna say my Pword again, proactive.
He's feeling ready because thesesteps have been taken now.

(27:49):
So that all came from reachingout and being prepared as a
parent Like I'm I'm coming tothis party and I want you to see
that I'm supportive of my childand I wanna support you and
let's work together.
So it's very early days but sofar he's gone off today and he
was he was happy to go to to oneof these transition days So to

(28:10):
me that's a huge win.

That contact starts the year before.
We don't wait.
It starts the year before.
And it might happen in the wayof visits to school.
It might happen in the way of, aone-on-one with a homeroom
teacher or, learning diversitycoordinator so that they feel
safe.
We're building safety andconnection.
I sometimes use a resource,supporting families with this

(28:34):
and my own daughters use thisresource by, Lori Desautels
called 2x10.
The instructions are reallysimple.
It's this idea that over twoweeks, every day a teacher will
have a two minute conversationabout a topic that's of interest
to your and show interest insomething that they're
interested in.

(28:56):
it builds this lovelyconnection, this warm regard
where a teacher's showinginterest asking questions and
showing interest.
It's not rocket science, but theexperience of the child's
nervous system is up.
This teacher likes me, you know,they, they see me and they're
interested in me.
And that just promotes thatsense of safety.

(29:16):
Our kids feel really vulnerable,I think, because of past
experiences of feeling unsafeor, stressed at school.
So it's really helpful for themto feel connected and liked by
people.
They're much more likely to seekout support if they feel safe
with the staff.

So I have a child who, I have two who have
transitioned to school, one didokay.
And the other one.
less well.
The one that did less well wasthe one where we did the most
transition preparation.
There was a learning supportteam.
We had lots of Zooms with them.
and they gave me to feel asthough they had everything

(30:04):
entirely under control.
And in retrospect, it was a lotof talk and not a lot of actual
material support.
For us, pretty much in week one,it became clear to me that they
hadn't really done anything tohelp and support.
I look back and I just like,ugh, I just should have, I

(30:25):
should have been so much moredemanding, but I know what to
demand now.
I didn't know what to demandthen.
I was very beholden to theirexpertise and they were very
willing to tell me that they hada lot of expertise.
How can other parents not fallinto the trap that I fell into?

I dunno, you, stuff happens
sometimes, Leisa, but as youwere speaking, I just remembered
one of the things that I oftensay to families is if your child
has a Educational Learning Planat primary school, get it
updated before the end of theyear and have one of the goals
to have a positive transitionand list all of the things you

(31:05):
think would make for a goodtransition.
It's in writing.
The primary school signs it andsays, this is the advice.
You've got something in hardcopy to go back to and say,
well, look, we agreed to this,this is what was advised and we
agreed that this would happen.
You sometimes do have to fallback on written documents and
say, Hey, can we pick up thepieces here?

(31:31):
it's helpful if people can saySorry, because stuff happens.

I think having it written in the document by the
primary school I would say onething that's been really super
supportive for us in thistransition is that the primary
school have actually kind oftaken charge of it because it is
in his plan.
I made the initial contact withthe school and I've had
conversations with them but themanagement of these extra visits
it's all been done between theschools and that means that like

(31:58):
Leisa I'm sorry you went throughwhat you went through cause your
cup's empty but I don't have todrain from my cup because
there's other people who aredoing it for me right now.
And my indicator of whetherthat's been successful will be
his mood this afternoon.
So I've got a good measure.
And that's probably really greatadvice to get it in that plan
Yeah

So things that I, looking back on, wish that I
would've known upfront.
And again, maybe just, I'm anidiot for having thought about
this beforehand, but otherpeople can learn from my lack of
foresight, just organising alocker.
It's a skill, right?
And some of our kids don't havethat skill at the best of times.

(32:43):
And when they're overwhelmed,they have even less of that
skill.
That whole thing of being ableto know where to go.
Be able to time when you need toleave to get there.
My little fellow, carrying heavythings around was just
exhausting for him.
But he had to carry all of hisheavy things around because he
didn't have the wherewithal towork out what he needed to take
with him and what he could leavebehind.
And he was so worried about nothaving what he needed that he

(33:04):
just carried the whole lotaround.
So by the end of the day, he wasexhausted.
Who sits down with a kid andhelps them think about how to
organize?
Tiffany does.
It just never occurred to methat that was a thing that I
should be preparing my childfor.
But that like a tiny thing was amassive thing for him.

Tiffany Westphal (she/ (33:24):
Learning to read a timetable and, work
out what you're gonna need.
There's a lot of executivefunction skills there,

Right?!,

so just on lockers, a couple tips
and managing stuff.
The first thing about lockers,often our kids to use
combination lock for the firsttime in their lives.
Go get the lock.
If the school dispenses thelock, then you are not supposed
to provide them yourself.
Go and get the lock in Decemberand practice over the holidays

(33:52):
using it.
Your young person's gonna beable to show everybody else how
to use their lock on the firstday.
I would suggest asking theschool if you can choose a
locker or have a locker assignedbefore the school holidays so
they know where locker is, andso they get a say in whether
their lockers up high, down low,at the end or in the middle,

(34:14):
near a doorway or not near adoorway.
And just a thought about thosesorts of things and how those,
the sensory aspects of thelocation whether somebody's
gonna be reaching over you ornot, or, how all of that feels.
you've got some choice.
Then in terms of managing stuff,they will give them some support
in learning how to read theirtimetable, but often not until

(34:36):
the first week of school, andthat'll happen in the homeroom.
You can colour code things,these, folders with the zip
around where you can puteverything inside a folder with
a zip.
If you get a red folder formaths and a green folder for
English or humanities orwhatever, and you put a set of

(34:58):
pencils and everything they needinto these little zip up things,
then all they have to do is grabthe folder the end of the lesson
zip it all back up.
I think another thing is,knowing what to bring home when
it's often a real big challengetoo, and having duplicates of
things.
A lot of schools use onlinetextbooks now, so you just need

(35:21):
to make sure you've got yourdevice with you.

But then also making sure that you as a parent
have got access to knowingwhat's expected as well.

The schools have all of that online
now.
So you can log in, a parent canlog in and see what's gonna
happen that week in the class.
But they often don't giveparents much training on how to
use the system.
And I think it's, it'sreasonable to ask, given that
you're gonna be providing someextra executive function support

(35:49):
to a stressed young person, toask for some extra support
yourself in navigating your wayaround that system.
So ask for it if you need it.

it might sound stupid, but just expect that
you're going to have to do a lotof this executive function
support for your kid.
Because you'll hear a lot fromthe school system saying, this
is the time for the child tostep up and do this and do that,
and they're gonna be independentand, you know, they shouldn't be
relying on mom and dad anymore.
you just have to ignore all ofthat basically, and just do
whatever you need to do.

They often need support for longer.

I had a very stressful, busy, full-time job
at the time as well.
So I actually didn't really havecapacity to do what was needed,
but that's a whole other thing.
The other thing that I really,really wish that I knew very
early on is that kids don't haveto do every single assessment or
they don't have to do all ofevery single assessment, and the
world won't end if they don't dothat.

(36:44):
We didn't find that out untileverything was hitting the fan.
Right.
And if I'd have known that fromthe beginning and we could have
gradually worked up and built upthe expectations around
assessments and work, I thinkthat would've gone so much
better for us.
But instead it had to hit acrisis.
And then they're like, oh, wellwhat assessments would you like
to do?
It's like, what do you mean?

(37:06):
This is the conversation we canhave?
I had no idea.
And you know, again, maybe thisis just me being embarrassingly
ignorant, but

Tiffany Westphal (she/he (37:12):
You're managing a nervous system and
energy and how much energy andwhat nervous system state the
young person's in, and you canask for any kind of adjustment
that's gonna help keep them in astate of functional capacity.
They can be graded only on thework they submit.
Unless they're in the finalyears of school and trying to

(37:33):
complete a certificate at theend of year 11 and 12.
And we need to remind schoolsthat they have a duty of care to
reduce stress so that we protectmental health.
Because when they arechronically stressed, mental
health starts to suffer.

(37:54):
And then we really struggle toget to school.
By the time they stop coming toschool, often they've been
distressed for a long time.

Yeah I think I would add to that as well.
In some of the research I'mcurrently doing, homework has
shown up as a big stressor.
I know of schools that havewritten into plans that students
don't have homework and thosestudents are okay That's
something we can do to reducethat stress know that the child
can come home and decompresswhich is what they need to do.
The other thing I would add isthinking back to that concept of

(38:24):
intolerance of uncertainty.
The first time of doingsomething can be really tricky.
I remember when I started highschool and I I just think back
now and I think if I justexperienced drop off for the
first time before it was thefirst time.
So you know we are doing littlethings like I'll pick my son up
a little tiny bit early fromschool and we drive to the high
school and we drive through thedrive through pick up zone so

(38:48):
that it's not the first timewhen he has to do it.
As an autistic person once I'vedone it the first time I'm like
yeah I'm sweet.
But in the lead up to that firsttime, goodness me like the
world's ending But then I'vedone it and then it's like oh no
I've got it That's good

And there are so many first times

So many! The first week is just a series of first
times.
New teachers, new classmates Ifyou're in a school where they
move them around different classlike it's just so many firsts.
So if there's any of thosefirsts that you can envisage and
kind of take away as a firstthat gives them more capacity to
navigate the actual firsts

it's not ridiculous to ask to go on a
tour of the toilets at school.

No

a toilet that feels comfortable to
you.

Yeah

go to the toilet at school.

Oh even today my son is going to go to the tuck
shop with the big kids.
The big kids are gonna be thereand he's gonna learn how to use
the tuck shop because that's youknow you think imagine if you
never get tuck shop because youcan't do it that first time.
I'm really grateful that allthese things are happening for
him because that's one firstthat we've now taken away

Two weeks into my son's year seven was a school
camp.

Why on earth do they do that to us?
They put it in the first coupleweeks.
It happened at my kids' highschool too.
Dreadful.

yeah, they do it because they want the kids to
bond together as a year group.
I kind of feel like school campcould be a whole other episode
really, couldn't it?

Yes, we need an episode on school camp.

I understand the rationale behind it from a
neurotypical point of view, butgetting them through those two
weeks and then school camp, youmust be kidding.
Yeah.
It's intense.
We are pretty much at the end ofour time together.
I wonder, Louise, was thereanything that you think is
really important in the contextof transitions that we haven't

(40:34):
covered so far?
Anything from the research thatyou wanted to make sure we're
aware of?

The message I wanna get across to parents is
that you are your child'sadvocate.
No one in the world loves thatchild more than you.
In some cases you are theirvoice because their voice is not
being heard.
All the research says that youare the best chance your child
has of having those goodoutcomes.
And you have a right to be inthere and asking for your child

(41:00):
to have their needs met.
There is no wrong in that.

Tiffany, any final thoughts from you?

We know that transitions often lead
to School Can't, and precipitateSchool Can't experiences.
And sometimes they make itthrough much of that first year
after a transition, but theenergy just runs out and the
scars start to form towards theend of that year or just going
into the next.
The honeymoon period's over andthey realize they just can't

(41:29):
sustain the energy.
Hindsight is such a cruel thingwhen you know after the fact
that you should have maybeplayed your cards differently,
done it differently.
Do look with softer eyes and becompassionate for yourself and
also for your child.
If it doesn't go well, don'tignore signs of distress for too

(41:52):
long.

But do ignore a lot of those very generic
messages about how this is thetime for your kid to become much
more independent and you shouldstep back and let them thrive.
Like I,

Tiffany Westphal (she/her (42:02):
Yeah.

Be ready to be the extra bit of prefrontal
cortex that they don't haveaccess to just yet.

One of the words that seems to be being used a
lot at the moment is resilienceI've had that word said to me.
He needs to be resilient.
My response has been, how do youteach resilience?
I've been a teacher for a longtime and I don't know how to
teach it.
I know how to support someone sothat they have their needs met
so that their capacity isgreater so that they are more

(42:30):
likely to be able to navigatechallenges.
But I don't know how to teachresilience.
And when you phrase it likethat, it makes people realize we
just don't make someoneresilient.
It's not possible.
You put them in an environmentwhere they're able to face
challenges more effectivelybecause their needs are met.
And when you phrase it like thatthey need to be independent.

it's almost like you need to teach them how to
make sure that they have theconditions for their needs to be
met so that they can beresilient.
Mm.
Fantastic.
All right, Are there anyresources that we should be
pointing people to that might behelpful?

I think the I CAN Network produced some pretty
lovely stuff about transition tohigh school That would be a
resource I would look at if youhave an autistic child.

Thank you both so much for your time and
experience and expertise today,Tiffany and Louise.
Really grateful for your time.

It's a pleasure Thank you.

I really hope you found that conversation
helpful and that you feelinformed and confident to help
support the young person in yourlife through their upcoming
transitions.
And particularly to engage withthe school to ensure that they
are also giving all the supportthat can make such a huge
difference for our young people.
I have put a link that explainsthe 2x10 method that Tiffany

(43:46):
described, as well as a link tothe I CAN Network for their
fantastic resources ontransition to high school for
autistic students.
If you have found our podcasthelpful, please do take a moment
to subscribe or give us a ratingor review.
This makes a huge difference inhelping us get the podcast in
front of more people who haveSchool Can't kids, who haven't

(44:08):
yet found our community and allthe information that we share.
If you have some feedback forus, a suggestion for a future
topic or speaker, or perhapsyou've been inspired to share
your own lived experience story,please drop me an email to
schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com Iwould love to hear from you.
If you're a parent or carer inAustralia and you're feeling

(44:29):
distressed, remember you cancall the Parent Helpline in your
state or reach out to Lifelineon 13 11 14.
A link with the number forParent Helpline is in the
episode notes.
Thank you again for listening,we will talk again soon.
Take care.

All Episodes

#38 - Successful School Transitions with Louise White and Tiffany Westphal

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang

Crime Junkie

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#38 - Successful School Transitions with Louise White and Tiffany Westphal