April 7, 2025 • 44 mins
Dr. Naomi Fisher joins host Leisa Reichelt and School Can’t Australia director Tiffany Westphal to explore how school can contribute to burnout in young people. They discuss recognizing burnout, distinguishing it from anxiety or depression, and what parents can do to help.
Dr. Fisher, a clinical psychologist specializing in child development, trauma, and self-directed education, supports parents of neurodivergent children struggling in traditional schooling. She advocates for alternative education approaches that prioritize autonomy and well-being. Her books, including Changing Our Minds and A Different Way to Learn, empower parents to rethink education, while her latest, The Teenager's Guide to Burnout, offers essential guidance on stress and recovery.
Recommended Resources:
- Naomi’s website (books, courses, webinars) - https://naomifisher.co.uk/
- Think Again: Naomi’s substack/newsletter - https://naomicfisher.substack.com
- School Can’t Australia Facebook Community - https://www.facebook.com/groups/schoolphobiaschoolrefusalaustralia
- Make a donation to School Can’t Australia - https://www.schoolcantaustralia.com.au/get-involved
If you are a parent of carer in Australia and experiencing distress, please call Lifeline on 13 11 14 or contact the Parent Help Line. - https://kidshelpline.com.au/parents/issues/how-parentline-can-help-you
You can contact us to volunteer to share your School Can't story or some feedback via email on schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com
Disclaimer
The content of this podcast is based on personal lived experiences and is shared for informational and storytelling purposes only. It should not be treated as medical, psychological, or professional advice under any circumstances. If you have concerns about your health or well-being, please seek guidance from a doctor, therapist, or other qualified professional.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leisa Reichelt (00:05):
Hello and welcome to the School Can't
Experience Podcast.
I'm Leisa Reichelt and thispodcast is brought to you by the
School Can't Australiacommunity.
Caring for a young person who isstruggling to attend School Can
be a stressful and isolatingexperience, but you are not
alone.
Thousands of parents acrossAustralia and many more around
the world face similarchallenges and experiences every
(00:25):
day.
We are joined today by a veryspecial guest, Dr.
Naomi Fisher.
Dr.
Fisher is a UK based clinicalpsychologist who specializes in
parenting and education and hasher PhD in autism.
On her website, she says'thethread that ties her work
together is her willingness totake a step outside the
conventional and to challengethe status quo, even when others
(00:48):
disagree.' So I think she'sgoing to fit in perfectly around
here.
Tiffany Westphal, who is adirector at School Can't
Australia, is also joining metoday to talk with Naomi about
burnout in our kids.
Where does it come from?
How can we recognize it, andwhat should we do?
Alright, then let's get started.
(01:09):
Naomi, I think you are going tobe pretty well known, amongst
the people who are, listening tothis and people in the School
Can't community in Australia andprobably all over the world.
I would love to hear from youjust like a potted history of
Naomi's life.
What's the pathway you've gonethrough to get you to doing the
work that you do today?
Dr Naomi Fisher (01:30):
Right.
Well, I think it really probablystarted when I was five and I
started school and I really,really didn't like it.
So my first school experiencewas one of feeling really
unhappy and feeling reallyalienated at school.
So actually, I started to say Ididn't want to go to school when
I was five and my parentschanged the school and that was
(01:52):
okay.
My next school was verydifferent, alternative,
progressive school and it wasall fine.
But because of my parents' work,we moved a lot.
So I actually went in total toabout 11 different schools when
I was growing up.
We lived overseas and then wecame back to the UK and when I
was about 13 and a half, Istarted another school, big
comprehensive, secondary schooland that was where I was really
(02:16):
unhappy.
I really disliked it in so manyways, and it actually made me
start to feel ill when I was atschool.
My throat would swell up, Iwould get sore throat.
And at the times, this was the,early 1990s, the, the response
was to take me to the doctor,and the doctor said I had
glanular fever, which I didn'thave.
(02:37):
I did a blood test and it showedthat I didn't have it, but the
doctor said, that's okay, we cangive you that diagnosis anyway,
which was effectively my ticketto attending school part-time or
to being out school quite a lotof the time.
Anyway, so I have my ownexperience of, at the time that
was called school phobia.
(02:57):
I remember even then at 13 or 14thinking, hang on a minute, this
isn't a phobia because I knowwhat a phobia is.
That's when you are reallyscared of something that isn't
really scary.
This isn't the case with me andschool.
School is just awful.
And I think that in a way I wasable to have that thought
because I'd been to so manydifferent schools and I had been
(03:19):
to other schools where I washappy and I was fine.
So I think that perspective hasreally informed everything I do
now as an adult.
Particularly when I hear aboutthe things that parents are
being told to do in order to gettheir children to go to school.
And I always think about myselfand I think, well, would that
have helped?
And usually the answer is no.
(03:39):
That would not have helped.
I don't know whether people aretold this in Australia, but in
the out of lots of parents aretold that the problem is that
home's too fun.
Home's too nice.
If your child's having troubleat school and so you're told to
make home less pleasant.
Leisa Reichelt (03:51):
I was told that last week
Dr Naomi Fisher (03:53):
really Yeah, it amazes me that anybody can think
that the child's really unhappyin one place.
So the answer is make them moreunhappy in the other place where
they're okay.
I mean, from a mental healthperspective, I cannot see how
that is ever going to work outwell.
I'm a clinical psychologist.
I had a PhD in autism that I didbefore my clinical psychology,
wasn't thinking about.
School issues or anything.
But then I decided not to sendmy own children to school.
(04:17):
Partly because I thought when myeldest was young, I thought he
would be a very bad fit forschool actually.
I thought that school could goquite quickly, go quite wrong.
And so we home educated forquite a while and then they've
been to various differentalternative schools and
alternative settings.
So I've got a kind of firsthandview on.
(04:37):
What it's like when childrendon't go to school and how they
learn out of school.
And then as they started to geta bit, a little bit older and
went to a learning settingrather than being at home all
the time, I had more time tothink and I was starting to
think about my first book,Changing Our Minds, because I
was thinking as my, my trainingas a clinical psychologist and
(04:58):
what I see happening in schools.
So much do not come together.
You know, the things that I wastaught that children need, the
things that I can see that myown children need isn't what
we're providing in schools.
And then what's happening iswhen the children don't fit into
that system we're pathologizingthe children, rather than
saying, hang on a minute, maybewe've designed a system that
(05:20):
really isn't fit for a lot ofour children.
We are saying, oh, we've gotchildren who aren't fit for a
lot of our schools.
How do we squeeze the childrenin?
How do we make the children lessdifferent?
How do we, you know, make surethey can do everything on
schedule that we want forschool?
And particularly seeing in thelast 20 years in the UK, and I
don't know if it's the same inAustralia.
(05:40):
The education system here hasgot much more exam focused, much
more pressured, much more kindof what they call
accountability, but what itmeans is testing children all
the way through school.
It's become a very anxioussystem right from the start, and
it means there's very littleflexibility.
And I think it's odd that thatsystem's been changed without
(06:03):
anybody ever saying, what theimpact will be on those children
in terms of their wellbeing.
It's like everybody's so focusedon exam results are the answer,
we've got to drive up standards,we've got to raise expectations.
We've got to get a hundredpercent attendance.
Nobody ever seems to stop think,and if we introduce this test
for six year olds, I wonder whatimpact that might have on their
(06:24):
anxiety levels or their parents'anxiety levels or the teacher's
anxiety levels?
Nobody seemed to ask that atall.
And at the same time, so as mychildren got a bit older, I've
worked in various places as aclinical psychologist, but I was
working in a neurodevelopmentalteam in South London.
I was seeing lots of childrenwho had waited for about two
(06:45):
years for an assessment.
They were coming to us for anautism or an ADHD assessment,
and they were often desperatefor this diagnosis.
And the reason was thatbasically school had said
there's can be no extra helpavailable unless you get this
diagnosis.
And then they were sent and puton this waiting list for two
years.
And I would listen to thestories the children were
telling me, almost always abouthow school was very difficult
(07:07):
and had gone wrong.
I would think, but the onlything I can do now as a clinical
psychologist is write a reportabout all the things that you
can't do, all the things thatyou are aware, you are
effectively not measuring up.
There is no avenue for me towrite something which says I'm
concerned about what's going onin your school.
Actually, I'm concerned thatsince you brought in this very
(07:29):
punitive behavior system, we areseeing increasing levels of
highly distressed young peopleover here in health.
There's no feedback system.
They very rarely askpsychologists about education.
In fact, if you try and sayanything, you'll get told very
quickly that you have nothing tosay and that you don't
understand what you're talkingabout and that you're not a
teacher.
Of course, I'm absolutely not ateacher.
(07:51):
But I do work with young peopleand I do hear about them.
And also I do have training inhow young people develop and how
they learn.
And I feel like we've developedthese schools, which
unfortunately are notpsychologically healthy places
for young people.
Then what we are doing isblaming the young people and
their families rather thanthinking about how we could
(08:11):
redesign school.
So that's an elaborate pottedhistory.
I apologize.
Leisa Reichelt (08:17):
That's okay.
We covered a lot of veryrelevant ground there.
Thank you.
So you've written a bunch ofvery, very helpful books The
latest one that you've writtenis actually to the teenagers.
And it's about burnout.
Why did you feel that you neededto write a book about burnout
and why to teenagers?
Dr Naomi Fisher (08:38):
Well,'cause parents were often saying to me.
What about our teenagers?
You know, we've read your books.
We like your books.
They've helped us change ourmindset about what's going on at
school.
They've helped us see thatperhaps the problem isn't our
children, but perhaps it'sactually the system.
But our teenagers the booksaren't accessible to them.
They're not interested inreading them.
They don't listen to what I say.
(08:59):
And they still very much believethat they are the problem, not
the system.
And often they're still in thatsystem and they're being told
explicitly that they are theproblem.
I worked with one boy who wastold at school that if he didn't
keep attending every day, he'dend up under a bridge.
And there are lots of other kidsI met who were told things like
that.
And they were so despairingthese teenagers because, I think
(09:23):
back to my own experience and Iremember what it was like to
really not be thriving at schooland to find school attendance so
difficult.
At least I knew that there wereother places where I had felt
happy and okay, and because ofthat, I had the faith that there
would be another place where Iwould be okay.
Whereas I think when you havekids who've gone through one
(09:45):
school or two schools, and it'salways been like this.
They don't have that sense ofhope, that actually, you know,
you, you'll leave school,everybody leaves school, it
finishes.
The bizarre thing about schoolis once you've got over the age
of school, nobody will let yougo back, even if you really
wanted to, it's a one chancething in terms of age, it is a
discreet phase of life, but Ithink for teenagers it doesn't
(10:09):
feel like that.
Particularly when they're toldschool is the only way you're
going to succeed.
Leisa Reichelt (10:13):
It might be a once off thing, but it's like if
you mess this up, theconsequences
Dr Naomi Fisher (10:17):
will be lifelong life.
Yes.
They're told that all the time,and I just wanted to present
something that said, you knowwhat?
That doesn't have to be that waybecause that hopelessness is, I
think the worst thing.
It's the thought that not onlyis my life really awful now,
it's going to be like thisforever because of this
particular phase of life.
Tiffany Westphal (10:38):
It's really important that we challenge
that, sense because there's sucha strong narrative and schools
drive it and governments driveit, this idea that you have to
get an education to make asuccess of yourself, you know
that you have to have been toschool.
And it's just that people don'tknow any of the other
alternatives really.
I always get really distressedwhen people say to me, the
(10:59):
pediatrician said, we shouldn'thome educate or we shouldn't do
distance education.
Dr Naomi Fisher (11:03):
People say things and I think with home
education or with educationoutside of school, it's one of
those things that professionalsare often very prepared to say
things on when they actuallydon't know.
You know, it's like they presentsocietal misconceptions as a
medical opinion, which I thinkis really dangerous because it
gets such a lot of extra weightbecause it's being said by a
(11:24):
professional.
And yet all it is is whatthey've read in the newspaper or
what someone said to them, orwhat they've seen happen to the
child down the road.
They're not medically trained toknow about home education or
alternatives.
Leisa Reichelt (11:35):
Let's dig into burnout.
Dr Naomi Fisher (11:37):
Yeah, Sorry.
Leisa Reichelt (11:38):
No, no, that's fine.
Like it's hard'cause there'sjust so, there's so much to
cover, I think we have peoplewho, definitely know that their
child is in burnout because theylike literally collapse into a
darkened room., yes.
but my experience with my son isa little bit different we gave
him enough accommodation that hecould just keep his nose above
(11:59):
the water.
He didn't quite get to collapse,but he absolutely was not fun at
all for him.
He's still very much in recoveryat the moment.
How can a parent know, what arethe signs that what you're
seeing is actually burnout?
That it's not, they're a bittired or they need to get some
more exercise and some freshair.
It's not anxiety that it isactually burnout.
Dr Naomi Fisher (12:21):
Yeah, so burnout is really interesting
because it's not in thediagnostic manual that we use as
psychologists and psychiatriststo diagnose what would be called
mental disorders is the manual.
That isn't the terminology I'duse, but that's the terminology.
Um, it's because it's defined asan occupational phenomena rather
than a medical problem.
I like that.
(12:42):
The fact that it's like thatbecause basically what it's
saying is burnout isn't actuallya problem in the person.
It's a problem of theenvironment of chronic stress.
So essentially when you're in anenvironment of chronic stress
for a long time, you feeltrapped in that environment.
At some point, your body andbrain goes, no more can't do it
anymore.
I'm just cutting outeffectively.
And I do think it's related tothis kind of hopelessness.
(13:04):
It's like, there's no way out ofthis for me.
The only thing I can do is growup to the point where nobody's
going to make me go to schoolanymore.
There's no other way out.
So I just cut out and it'sabsolutely not intentional.
It's an unconscious thing ofyour brain and body.
Just say enough.
I think you're right.
There are the young people arevery clearly in burnout and it's
like, I can't leave the house.
I don't want to do anything.
(13:26):
Nothing brings me any joyanymore.
I have no energy for anything.
And then there are the youngpeople where it kind of seems to
be bobbing along.
And I think the really key thingthat I say to parents to look
out for is a loss of excitementabout doing anything, even the
things they used to enjoy.
That can gradually creep up onpeople.
(13:46):
People often say they lose theirspark, so they lose their spark
about school stuff quitequickly.
Often, you know, none of it'sinteresting.
Doesn't matter what the schooloffers, it's not interesting.
I don't want to do it.
I'm not curious anymore.
I'm not asking questionsanymore.
But then when it starts tospread to, I'm just not curious
about anything anymore.
(14:07):
So, you know, maybe they used toreally enjoy making really
complicated Lego models and nowthey're just like, just don't
want to, can't be bothered.
So there's kind of just sense ofapathy and lethargy that spreads
to everything.
I think that is a really keysign that this is something
quite serious.
Life is now, you're just goingthrough the motions and you're
just going through the motionsat home and at school.
(14:29):
It doesn't really matter whathappens, you are still just
going through the motions.
There might be a couple of dayswhen people are like that in
life, but if that's happening ona sustained basis and you're
looking back and thinking, youknow, for the last six months
it's just kind of like nothingis interesting.
I think you need to start beingconcerned.
(14:49):
And of course the thing is thatteenagers move a bit more into
that kind of stage slightlyanyway, so there can be
confusion of is this just beinga normal teenager?
But I think that when there isjust no desire to do anything.
Even like when they're withtheir friends, they're not
animated.
When they're playing a videogame, they're not animated.
There's no kind of, oh yeah,that would be nice.
(15:11):
That sort of spark.
When that's not there, then Ithink that's a sign that you are
either in burnout or that theyare heading.
Quite quickly towards that.
Leisa Reichelt (15:21):
I think that's really helpful because I think
especially when you haveteenagers, like you say, there
is a little bit of that naturalinclination anyway, and I've
heard so many people and I'vedefinitely had the feeling
myself where you go, is this kidjust getting lazy?
Is he, can he just not bebothered anymore?
Is my job actually to push that?
What I should be doing now is tonot let him get lazy, keep him
(15:41):
motivated, keep pushing and itcan take time, I think, can't it
to distinguish.
Dr Naomi Fisher (15:46):
It's very subtle.
Tiffany Westphal (15:48):
I just want to ask, a lot of the, signs of
burnout seem very similar tosigns of depression too?
Yeah.
And I think, that was the firstthing that our general
practitioner, did an assessmenton my child for depression.
Mm-hmm.
And so then that, ensued acertain treatment plan, I just
wonder if you have somereflection on the difference?
Dr Naomi Fisher (16:10):
What were they asked to do for depression?
Tiffany Westphal (16:11):
Oh, medication.
Okay.
And, you know, CBT and copingskills, but
Leisa Reichelt (16:18):
Get outside.
Go for a walk.
Get some fresh air and go talkto people.
All of these things which,
Tiffany Westphal (16:23):
More demands, which do sound like a good idea.
Exercise.
Yep.
Dr Naomi Fisher (16:26):
Yep.
So, I mean, it's.
First thing to know is that thiswhole area is much more vague
than everybody thinks it is.
When we say given a diagnosis ofdepression or anxiety, that
means that we know what that isand that's different to
everything else.
In fact, it's all much moreblurred.
We know now from science thatbasically you can't divide
people up easily into differentdiagnostic groups.
(16:48):
They're all much more.
It's just a lot morecomplicated.
So I think the main problem witha diagnosis of depression is
that basically, again, puts theproblem back into the child.
Yeah.
So it says we need to changetheir reactions to this
environment, which is, whyyou've got the medication or the
CBT and I think the absolutelykey thing is that people need to
(17:11):
be thinking, so what's going onin this child's life that isn't
working for them?
Rather than, what's wrong withthis child right now?
And that should be the firstport of call.
Because even if a child'sdepressed, the first question
should be, so why are theydepressed?
It isn't just something thatarises out of nowhere.
Yeah, a lot.
Depression is about reaction tolife circumstances in the same
way as burnout can be.
(17:32):
So let's think about what'sgoing on in their life before we
think about how to change them.
I'm a psychologist, not apsychiatrist, so I don't
prescribe medication it cansometimes help, but none of
these things should be used totry and push a child back into
an environment that wasn'tworking for them.
That's the thing.
I don't think any interventionshould be used in that way.
(17:55):
The first thing should be why isthis not working for this child?
We need to be open with, thereneeds to be the idea, maybe
school isn't the right place forthis child.
Maybe this school isn't theright place for this child.
Tiffany Westphal (18:06):
I agree.
One of the things we say atSchool Can't Australia is that
we need to look upstream ofmental ill health.
Because mental ill health islike smoke in relation to a
fire.
It's what's caused the house tocatch fire.
What's going on for that kid?
What are the stressors?
Often mental ill health is.
Like physical ill health.
(18:26):
If you are stressed for longenough, you become mentally
unwell.
You become eventually physicallyunwell, and that's what's
happening to our kids.
Dr Naomi Fisher (18:37):
Yeah.
One of the things I say in theburnout book, is that these
things are signs, not causes.
So I think there's a, there's apicture from one of my other
books where a child holding upsemaphore flags and they say on
them things like self harm,meltdowns and controlling
behavior.
They're all signs that thingsaren't going right in this
child's life.
Signs of distress.
(18:57):
Yeah, signs of distress.
Exactly.
And people show their distressin different ways, people
develop depression.
Some become very anxious, somego into burnout, some develop
eating disorders or OCD.
There are all sorts of differentways to respond to distress and
we can get overly fixated onwhich bit of distress is you and
how do we deal with that ratherthan what's going on upstream to
(19:19):
cause so many distressed youngpeople.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (19:25):
So we have a child, we think to ourselves.
It's quite possible that they'renot being lazy, that they're
actually having a reaction to anenvironment, and this is what
I'm seeing here is some burnout.
In an ideal world, as a parent,what do I do then?
Dr Naomi Fisher (19:43):
Oof.
Only there was an ideal world.
It's funny we alluded already,didn't we, to how this period of
life is always talked about asbeing particularly crucial,
which effectively means there'sless flexibility in this stage
of life than any other stage oflife.
And also a kind of catastrophicprojection about this stage of
(20:03):
life that there isn't aboutanother stage of life.
Because if an adult is headingtowards burnout.
It might be okay, you need a bitof time off, you need to take
some time off and just regroup abit and have time to think about
what's going on.
I think often what parents wantand what young people want as
well, actually, and certainlywhat schools want is a solution.
Let's fix this, let's put thisin place so that they'll be able
to carry on.
(20:23):
I think the first stage ofrecovering from burnout is just
to stop for a bit and say, let'sjust breathe.
Let's just take some timewithout thinking about solutions
right now, and just think aboutreconnection.
Try to build a relationship withyour child that isn't to do with
school, because when school isgoing wrong for a child,
(20:46):
everything in that child's lifecan become about school and how
it's not going well becauseparents are drawn in, aren't
they?
They, you know, it is theparent's job to get them to
school every morning.
It's the parent's job to patchthem together in the evenings
and to help them get theirhomework done.
Sometimes if a child's reallystruggling at school, parents
will invest money in tutors.
I was talking to this, autisticyoung man who doesn't like
(21:08):
maths.
He's at college now and hereally doesn't like maths.
And he said his mom was tryingto get him to do extra maths out
of college.
And he said to her, in whatworld is the answer to hating
maths to do more maths?
In the whole school world, thatis pretty well the answer my son
did go to preschool for a bitand he didn't like preschool.
He went a couple of mornings aweek and the original answer to
(21:30):
that was more preschool.
So the staff said, if he'sstruggling with two come five
mornings a week.
Tiffany Westphal (21:36):
There's another one of those narratives
though, isn't it too, that whensomebody finds something
difficult, we say you need tolearn to push through that, or
you need to learn to be able tocope better or be more resilient
or, and the only way to do thatis to have more of that
experience because you learnthat it's not so bad.
Then we start to use exposureplans and we're like, you know,
(21:59):
you're going to push through thedistress.
You're going to realize thatyour brain is tricking you and
it's not that bad.
Dr Naomi Fisher (22:07):
And that's when you get burnout.
I think when you've been told,it is a recipe for burnout.
If we tell parents you've got tomake home less pleasant, you
must not allow them to do thingsthat they enjoy at home.
Well, that's going to go well.
And you must force them to gointo school by whatever means
possible.
I've heard parents told thingslike, you should take them in
their pajamas, put the clothesin the car, take them in.
(22:30):
I've had people say, the headteacher said they would come and
pick them up from home so thatyou wouldn't have to get them in
the car.
Tiffany Westphal (22:36):
Or give them a special job before school,
feeding the school pets.
Dr Naomi Fisher (22:39):
Absolutely.
Yes.
Get them in.
Yeah.
And then if you just think aboutthat with adults, if you thought
about an adult who was saying,I'm really struggling with this
job, it really isn't making mefeel good.
I've had jobs like that.
I really don't like being there.
Would we say, well, the answeris to do less nice things at
home and to keep going no matterwhat.
(23:02):
I had a job as an adult where, Iwas working in an open plan
office and I just found itreally difficult for many
reasons, but it started to makeme feel physically ill again.
And I think for me, Iexperienced my stress very
physically and I know that now.
I didn't know that when I was ateenager.
Now I notice when I'm startingto get these kind of prickly
feelings and I'm starting to getthem at night as well, I've got
(23:22):
a little red flag going up in mybrain going, okay, this is high
stress for me.
This isn't working well.
And I was able to quit that job.
I felt bad about it.
I was still in my probationperiod, but I was like, I don't
think this is going to getbetter for me because this is
how the job is set up.
I can go and find another job.
We don't allow children thatsame basic autonomy of this
(23:45):
isn't working for me.
I need something different.
And I don't really understandwhy we have such a different
approach.
You're absolutely right Tiffany.
It's a recipe for burnout tomake life less fun at home, and
then make sure they go into theplace they're not happy and you
break that relationship with theparents.
And that's, I think, the thingthat really needs to be rebuilt
in this recovery stage.
The parent needs to be saying,I'm sorry that I did these
(24:07):
things.
I was told that I had to.
I did it out of good intentionsand now let's reconnect on the
things that are important toyou.
So finding those things wherethere is still a teeny little
bit of, oh yes, I might like todo that.
If it's, cooking cupcakes at11.30 at night, or if it's
playing video games together, Italked to one mother who said
(24:28):
her 14-year-old came out ofschool and for a while, she was
just literally in her room.
Didn't do anything.
And then I saw her'wants' comingback and I liked that little
thing of her'wants', you know,that she wanted to do something
again.
And I think that's when youstart to see the tiny signs of
emergence from burnout.
But young people rarely get tothat point until they're
(24:49):
confident that that will notmean that they're quickly forced
back into school.
Because the, the dilemma thatyou have as a young person who's
not attending school'causeyou're in burnout, is the moment
you start to look at all better.
People will say, great, let'sget a plan back in place for you
to go back to school.
It's an impossible situation.
And it's not consciouslyimpossible, they're not
consciously thinking, I mustn'tget better.
(25:11):
It is literally impossible toget better if you know that's
just going to mean a quickreturn to the place that made
you so unwell in the firstplace.
Leisa Reichelt (25:19):
Yeah, I feel so guilty listening to this.
I really do.
Well, because it can just take,it's like you, we get so
indoctrinated, don't we, on theway through as like what needs
to happen.
All the other messages reallyare, you just need to do
everything you possibly can tokeep them at school.
Try this, try this, try this,try this, and you work your way
(25:39):
through all of these differentways.
And actually all you're doing isprolonging the situation.
Yeah.
Once you do finally see thelight and you have a burnt out
young person at home, how do wenot let ourselves do exactly
(26:03):
what you described.
How do we stop ourselves fromgoing, oh look, they're getting
better now we can do things andnot feel guilty as a parent,
you're just constantly feel likeyou're walking the line of being
negligent in one way ornegligent in another way.
Right?
How do we make sure when we arelooking after our young people
in burnout that we're notactually being negligent parents
(26:23):
by just giving them all the timeand space to do whatever they
want to do, even if that'sabsolutely nothing except
sitting in front of a screenwatching YouTube.
Dr Naomi Fisher (26:30):
Isn't it funny how with children, we are always
kind of in these dichotomies aswell?
'cause I get told this all thetime.
You mean you just do nothing orwe just do nothing?
No, basically, I think it's a,it's a, needs to be a conscious
shift in direction because weare all told that the way to a
happy, healthy, functioningchild is through school.
(26:50):
That is the only way, and thatif we can channel them through
school, then all the other stuffwill follow.
And I've been told thatactually, I've been on Twitter,
I've been told that by teachers,when I say wellbeing is really
important, they'll say, well,when they're doing well at
school, then they'll feel goodabout themselves.
That's the root to wellbeing andthe problem is if you are a
(27:11):
child who isn't doing well andwho isn't thriving, then that
route isn't working for you.
That route of you must do wellat school and then you will be
allowed to be happy.
I have to say I don't think itworks for those who do do well
at school as well, particularly,but that is what we're told.
So I think as the parent, youneed to effectively take a
really conscious shift the otherdirection and go, we are going
(27:32):
to focus on wellbeing first.
Because actually that's thefoundation of growing up to be a
fully functioning adult, thatright at the base we have to
have wellbeing.
That might mean making somecontroversial decisions.
It might mean saying, actuallyyes, we might be out of school
for a bit, because actuallywellbeing is more important at
(27:55):
this stage.
And do you know what?
Academics can come later?
You don't have to do it wheneverybody else does it.
It is possible and actuallysometimes easier to come back
and do those things in your lateteens or even your early
twenties.
But the wellbeing part, oncethat's gone, that's really hard
to get back.
Particularly wellbeing in yourteen years because it's a
(28:18):
foundational stage of humandevelopment when you are forming
this identity of yourself.
And I think that's why Isometimes meet parents who've
done things like take their kidsaway traveling for six months.
And I think that that's partlybecause that's feels just a bit
more socially acceptable thanwe're just going to take them
out of school for six months.
You know, it's like we're havinga great family adventure and
(28:40):
we're doing this thing.
And you can kind of frame it asa educational experience, which
of course it's in lots of ways,but it's also just a way to, to,
it's like a circuit break, Imeet families who've taken their
kids traveling for a few months.
And that has led to a kind ofre-imagining of how is this
going to work now?
Because it's, let's think aboutit.
'cause that you've built in thatspace.
I think when you've got a childwho's struggling at school, your
(29:02):
whole family life is taken overwith that.
There's no space to take stock Iremember it well myself.
It's like that sort ofrollercoaster of Sunday evening
kind of down'cause you've got awhole week to go and then you
kind of gradually building upduring the week and you get to
the weekend and then it's like,whoosh, down we go again.
It's just relentless.
There's no time to stop andthink.
(29:24):
One of the things I say toparents is.
You are on this rollercoasteralways hoping that things are
going to get better.
You are always thinking, if wejust do this, maybe it will all
be better and you can be on thatrollercoaster for years.
Eliza Fricker, who was theillustrator of the book actually
her daughter had lots of troubleat school and didn't attend
secondary school, but she saidwe did eight years of maybe this
(29:48):
thing will get better, maybethis will work.
Meetings at school, endless.
Just this kind of up and down.
It's an awful place to be andthat actually leads to parental
burnout as well as young people.
'cause you're on this sort ofadrenaline rush that, you know,
highs and lows all the time.
So I think the first thing to dois if as a parent you can get a
bit of space to reflect awayfrom your child, just to think
(30:10):
about what is it really likeright now, and if it carries on
being just like this, there's nokind of happy ever after moment
when everybody becomes happy atschool.
Is it okay?
If we just carry on like it isnow, am I going to feel okay
about that?
If that carries on until they're18, and if not.
(30:30):
Well then just think about that.
That is the reality.
That's what's really therebecause often we don't, we don't
compare what reality is withother options.
We compare what we would like itto be like with other options.
So we think, obviously I wouldprefer them to be happy and
thriving at school.
That's my number one, that'swhat I'd like.
But what about if that actuallyisn't an option?
(30:52):
What about if we take that oneoff the table?
Because it's not happening andit hasn't happened despite all
these years of trying.
And actually what we've got isthis current situation.
Then what is, what might be theother options?
Might there be something elsethat might be better in that
case?
Leisa Reichelt (31:07):
You're describing my life right now.
Honestly, Naomi, I've just beenthrough this exact process.
I went to the school today towithdraw my son the last attempt
for now at at at at schooling,because Yeah, exactly that.
You know, it is been such adifficult few years and we've
tried so many things and theexperience for him has been just
(31:30):
consistently awful.
And it's like, how many moreyears are, are we going to go
through this?
It's just, yeah, life's, life'stoo precious.
Tiffany Westphal (31:40):
I say to people, my daughter survived 10
years of trying to be at school.
And we pulled her out at thebeginning of this year.
We had a lovely high schoolthough.
You know, I chose a secondaryschool that was trauma informed
and, neurodiverse affirming and,really great school.
But the trauma from primaryschool came with her.
Leisa Reichelt (32:00):
That's exactly what I was saying to the
principal today.
This school is a great school.
If we'd have brought my sonhere, two or three years ago, he
probably would've had an amazingtime.
But I think he's just so damagedby all the things that we've
tried that no school environmentis going to work right now.
So we have a little reset.
Tiffany Westphal (32:19):
trauma is really sticky, once you get to
that point where your nervoussystem is so impacted by your
past experiences, you know, ourchildren need safety.
They don't have anything left tonavigate something that feels
unsafe.
So, yeah, my daughter's at homerecovering.
Recovery will take as long as itwill take.
(32:40):
I've said that to her, shehasn't been able to leave the
house since before Christmas.
She managed to go have ahaircut.
She slept for half a dayafterwards.
She connects with me forco-regulation and hugs.
She thinks dad's hugs are not asgood as mine, so it's got to be
me or the dog.
And that's the way we're rockingand rolling at the moment, is
(33:02):
food, hugs, sleeping, listeningto music, watching videos.
Leisa Reichelt (33:08):
Well, the good news for us, Tiffany, is that
Naomi's just told us we shouldplan a big adventure and go
traveling.
No, I couldn't.
My, my child wouldn't have
Tiffany Westphal (33:17):
capacity for that at the moment
Dr Naomi Fisher (33:19):
People get to different points, don't they?
You get to the point of totalbreakdown and then it's like
there aren't any choices anymorethere because they just can't
go.
There is no way.
when I'm talking about goingaway, traveling, it's like.
We are heading in thatdirection, but I don't know
quite how to stop this becauseperhaps school don't see a
problem at all.
Or perhaps, you know, we've beenjust bobbing along at this level
(33:40):
for so long and there's nocrisis pushing us.
Then I think sometimes it'sworth thinking about what I call
a circuit breaker, and that'swhat I think going away is.
It's like we can, we can do thisbefore we get to that point of
total breakdown.
Because you're right, once youget to the point of total
breakdown, you.
No, no, no choice anymore.
Tiffany Westphal (33:59):
Yeah, there's a huge difference between a
child who is really early on intheir, journey of distress in
relation to school.
If we can catch a child early,we can identify what those
stressors are and do somethingabout those stressors, that kid
can go back happily to schooland probably be fine.
For some time.
(34:19):
But the child who haspersistently struggled again and
again, who's experienced chronicstress, is the kind of kid who
ends up burned out.
Leisa Reichelt (34:30):
I think one of the other things, when you were
talking about traveling youtalked about the socially
acceptable version of takingtime out from school.
I wonder if we can just touchbriefly on the socially
unacceptable way of taking timeout from school, which is to sit
in your darkened room with thecurtains drawn in front of a
screen gaming or, doing thingson screens.
You know there you've combinedtwo of the most difficult social
(34:53):
aspects of parenting, which isnot being at school and letting
your kids have extensive amountsof screen time.
Are you able to speak to thatbriefly?
Dr Naomi Fisher (35:01):
Yes.
So I mean, these are the thingsthat activate our bad parenting
kind of schema, I would say,aren't they?
In one of the, the other bookwe've done that When The Naughty
Step Makes Things Worse, whichis my other book with Eliza,
which is about parenting, wetalk about the good parent tm,
like what good parenting goodparents do, and what everybody,
(35:22):
the things that everybodyaccepts as a society that good
parents should do.
And sending your child to schoolis number one, I'd say, of being
a good parent.
And then limiting screen time isanother part then there are all
the things like making themshare and take turns and please
and thank you, and all thosekind of things that are
Leisa Reichelt (35:39):
lots of sport.
Dr Naomi Fisher (35:40):
Oh yes.
Playing sport, you've got to getyour tick boxes of what the well
performing child does.
Because I say that they, theybasically judge parents by what
their child does.
So the child is the outcome.
If your child is performing upto these level, then you are a
good parent that reflects backon you.
What that means is that theparents who have the hardest
(36:01):
time parenting feel absolutelyawful about themselves the
parents, you have a reallystraightforward time, feel great
about themselves, and everybodythinks they're doing great.
I remember noticing this when mychildren were very small and
they weren't sleeping throughthe night at all.
and the parents who had babieswho slept through the night
were.
Intolerably smug about itbecause they felt it was
(36:23):
something that they had done.
Leisa Reichelt (36:26):
That was me for baby number one.
then I had baby number two and Irealized it was nothing to do
with me.
Dr Naomi Fisher (36:32):
Baby number two is really good for that.
Mine were actually the other wayaround, I had baby number one
who didn't do any of the things,and baby number two, who did?
And I was like, oh, okay.
The same thing happens withthings like coming out of
school, there's the assumptionisn't there, that if you had
just done things differently,you wouldn't be in this position
other parents say things like,oh, we just don't give us the
option, which is really helpful.
(36:53):
Um, so I think it's a reallyhard place to be as a parent and
really hard place to hold as aparent because there's so much
societal judgment.
So I think the thing to do thereis to really think about what
your values are and why you'remaking that decision for your
child, even if it doesn't feellike much of a decision.
And I think it's aboutwellbeing.
(37:15):
It's about saying we're going toprioritize wellbeing now.
But also the other thing I oftensay to parents is whenever
there's a difficult situationregarding your child.
And particularly regarding thejudgment of other people.
Just think about what is themost important relationship
here?
Who, and it's always going to bethe relationship with your child
(37:35):
because pretty well all theother relationships, they will
come and go.
You know, all those people atschool who seem so important
now.
Few years time, your child willhave aged out of the school
system.
They will be past memories.
They will not be involved inyour child's life.
You will still be involved inyour child's life.
You want this relationship withyour child to be the longest
relationship in your life, to bethe longest relationship in
(37:57):
their life.
And so if you can build that upnow, you are building something
for the future for both of you.
Leisa Reichelt (38:05):
Two quick ones to wrap up near me and then,
I'll let you get back to yourday.
first one is the burnout book.
Yeah, the Beautiful Burnoutbook, written for teenagers.
probably mostly read by moms.
Think so, yes.
Hopefully also teenagers aswell.
Dr Naomi Fisher (38:23):
It's one to leave lying around.
Leisa Reichelt (38:25):
I will respectfully submit that.
If I could get this in YouTubeshorts, it would really take
off.
Yeah.
Tiffany Westphal (38:32):
my daughter's tolerating having me read parts
of it to her and she's going,oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (38:37):
That's true.
But if you, for, you know, formoms who are reading it, yeah.
If you could pick out like oneor two, like really key messages
that you would want them to takeaway, what would they be?
Dr Naomi Fisher (38:51):
It isn't a disaster to stop going to
school.
It isn't a one chance thingyou've got to do in life.
It is okay for school not towork for a while.
There is still going to be afuture.
There's still going to be ahope.
And for parents, holding ontothat hope for the future is our
(39:13):
job, really, because teenagersfind that really difficult.
They don't have the same lifeexperience as we do.
They don't have the sameexperience of life having ups
and downs.
So often when they're down, itjust feels like it's always
going to be like this.
I'm always going to be down.
And particularly when they'vebeen told.
If you don't go to school, thiswill happen.
This will happen then.
(39:33):
There's never good things, isit?
You're never told good thingsabout what will happen if you
don't go to school.
So we need to activelycounteract that as parents.
And if you think about all theschool propaganda there is out
there, all the stuff we tell ourchildren right from when they're
three or four about how greatschool is.
There's this place ofopportunity and learning.
If you are a child for whom itdoesn't feel like that you're
(39:55):
like, why?
Why am I not?
you think, why is it not likethat for me?
Is it because there's somethingwrong with me?
So I think we really have to, asparents, counteract all of that
propaganda.
And that's why I wrote the bookactually.
'cause parents said they won'tlisten to me.
They don't believe what I say.
So I thought, I want to have abook that shows that you as
parents are not the only personsaying this.
(40:17):
You aren't the only people whoare trying to present something
different.
There are other people out there
Leisa Reichelt (40:21):
as I'm going to venture that they won't find
this book in the local schoollibrary, though it probably
won't be top of the pops forteachers, I don't think.
Um, but that yeah, thatresonates with me so much
because when I finally decidedthat we were done with school
for the moment.
It took me weeks to get my sonto even contemplate it because
(40:43):
I'd been part of the propagandamachine for years, telling him
how important school was
Tiffany Westphal (40:48):
my daughter experienced intense grief for
about four or five weeks afterwe made the decision.
She's the third of my childrenand the other two finished
school.
She's sure she's never going tofinish high school the way that
her siblings did, and she maynot.
But her journey is unique and,it'll be what it'll be.
And I'll always be here as herparent to provide that safe
(41:08):
landing space and support.
I'm not worried by it, but sheis, holding space for grief and,
helping her see the light andthe future.
That there will be a road torecovery.
it's a slow one though.
Dr Naomi Fisher (41:24):
It is.
I think it because it can feellike you've canceled the future
when you stop going to school.
school has such a predictablething, doesn't it?
You keep going.
You'll be in year nine.
You'll be in year 10.
You'll be in year 11.
All you need to do is keepshowing up and you'll keep
moving up those layers.
And then it feels like I'vestepped off that and now what's
happening?
Are they all going off withoutme?
Where am I going?
Where's my progress?
(41:44):
And it's, harder.
It's always hard
Tiffany Westphal (41:46):
to go the road less traveled.
Dr Naomi Fisher (41:49):
Absolutely.
Leisa Reichelt (41:50):
Finally, Naomi, if people want to find out more
of all the great resources thatyou put out in the world, where
is the best place for people toconnect with you and learn more?
Dr Naomi Fisher (42:02):
So my website is naomifisher.co.uk and you'll
find links to all of my workthere and you can join my
mailing list.
I also have a substack, which iscalled Think Again: Making
Childhood Fit for Children.
If you're not a social mediaperson.
Or if you don't want to sign upfor mail list and things, then
that's a newsletter that justcomes once a week into your
(42:23):
email.
That's a good place if you wantto share my posts, because I put
lots of stuff out there onFacebook and Instagram and
LinkedIn, but it kind ofdisappears after a while.
You know, it is hard to searchit, but on the Substack you can
go back and there's an archiveof a couple of years of short
things that I've written.
those are the places to start.
Leisa Reichelt (42:39):
Amazing.
And I would thoroughly recommendthe webinars that are on there.
there's a whole selection and Ipersonally have found them
extremely helpful on difficulttopics.
we will put links to all of thatin the notes so that people can
go in and take a look forthemselves.
Well, thank you Naomi.
It's been just such privilegehearing you talk and, and
(43:01):
learning from you.
And I really appreciate youtaking the time.
Dr Naomi Fisher (43:04):
Thank you very much for inviting me.
Leisa Reichelt (43:06):
Okay.
Well, how wonderful to havespent some time with Dr.
Naomi Fisher today.
Honestly, I could have spoken toher for hours and hours.
She has so much wisdom andinsight that's relevant to
people who are trying to supportkids struggling in mainstream
school.
I really do recommend taking alook at Naomi's website.
She has an abundance ofresources that tackles some of
(43:27):
the stickiest topics that you'relikely to come up against.
I put a link in the episodenotes for you to take a look.
I also put a link to the SchoolCan't Australia website, which
has more resources and theopportunity to donate to School
Can't Australia.
Your tax deductible donationshelp us to raise community
awareness, partner withresearchers, produce resources
(43:48):
like webinars and this podcast.
All of these things assistpeople who are supporting
children and young peopleexperiencing School Can't.
If you have an expert that youwould like us to talk to on the
podcast, please email us and letus know and we will do our best
to get them on.
You can email us atschoolcantpodcast@gmail.com.
(44:08):
If you are a parent or a carerin Australia and you are feeling
distressed, remember you canalways call the parent helpline
in your state.
A link with the number to callis also in the episode notes.
Thank you again for listening.
I hope you enjoyed meetingNaomi, and we will talk again
soon.
Take care.
Hello and welcome to the School Can't
Experience Podcast.
I'm Leisa Reichelt and thispodcast is brought to you by the
School Can't Australiacommunity.
Caring for a young person who isstruggling to attend School Can
be a stressful and isolatingexperience, but you are not
alone.
Thousands of parents acrossAustralia and many more around
the world face similarchallenges and experiences every
(00:25):
day.
We are joined today by a veryspecial guest, Dr.
Naomi Fisher.
Dr.
Fisher is a UK based clinicalpsychologist who specializes in
parenting and education and hasher PhD in autism.
On her website, she says'thethread that ties her work
together is her willingness totake a step outside the
conventional and to challengethe status quo, even when others
(00:48):
disagree.' So I think she'sgoing to fit in perfectly around
here.
Tiffany Westphal, who is adirector at School Can't
Australia, is also joining metoday to talk with Naomi about
burnout in our kids.
Where does it come from?
How can we recognize it, andwhat should we do?
Alright, then let's get started.
(01:09):
Naomi, I think you are going tobe pretty well known, amongst
the people who are, listening tothis and people in the School
Can't community in Australia andprobably all over the world.
I would love to hear from youjust like a potted history of
Naomi's life.
What's the pathway you've gonethrough to get you to doing the
work that you do today?
Dr Naomi Fisher (01:30):
Right.
Well, I think it really probablystarted when I was five and I
started school and I really,really didn't like it.
So my first school experiencewas one of feeling really
unhappy and feeling reallyalienated at school.
So actually, I started to say Ididn't want to go to school when
I was five and my parentschanged the school and that was
(01:52):
okay.
My next school was verydifferent, alternative,
progressive school and it wasall fine.
But because of my parents' work,we moved a lot.
So I actually went in total toabout 11 different schools when
I was growing up.
We lived overseas and then wecame back to the UK and when I
was about 13 and a half, Istarted another school, big
comprehensive, secondary schooland that was where I was really
(02:16):
unhappy.
I really disliked it in so manyways, and it actually made me
start to feel ill when I was atschool.
My throat would swell up, Iwould get sore throat.
And at the times, this was the,early 1990s, the, the response
was to take me to the doctor,and the doctor said I had
glanular fever, which I didn'thave.
(02:37):
I did a blood test and it showedthat I didn't have it, but the
doctor said, that's okay, we cangive you that diagnosis anyway,
which was effectively my ticketto attending school part-time or
to being out school quite a lotof the time.
Anyway, so I have my ownexperience of, at the time that
was called school phobia.
(02:57):
I remember even then at 13 or 14thinking, hang on a minute, this
isn't a phobia because I knowwhat a phobia is.
That's when you are reallyscared of something that isn't
really scary.
This isn't the case with me andschool.
School is just awful.
And I think that in a way I wasable to have that thought
because I'd been to so manydifferent schools and I had been
(03:19):
to other schools where I washappy and I was fine.
So I think that perspective hasreally informed everything I do
now as an adult.
Particularly when I hear aboutthe things that parents are
being told to do in order to gettheir children to go to school.
And I always think about myselfand I think, well, would that
have helped?
And usually the answer is no.
(03:39):
That would not have helped.
I don't know whether people aretold this in Australia, but in
the out of lots of parents aretold that the problem is that
home's too fun.
Home's too nice.
If your child's having troubleat school and so you're told to
make home less pleasant.
Leisa Reichelt (03:51):
I was told that last week
Dr Naomi Fisher (03:53):
really Yeah, it amazes me that anybody can think
that the child's really unhappyin one place.
So the answer is make them moreunhappy in the other place where
they're okay.
I mean, from a mental healthperspective, I cannot see how
that is ever going to work outwell.
I'm a clinical psychologist.
I had a PhD in autism that I didbefore my clinical psychology,
wasn't thinking about.
School issues or anything.
But then I decided not to sendmy own children to school.
(04:17):
Partly because I thought when myeldest was young, I thought he
would be a very bad fit forschool actually.
I thought that school could goquite quickly, go quite wrong.
And so we home educated forquite a while and then they've
been to various differentalternative schools and
alternative settings.
So I've got a kind of firsthandview on.
(04:37):
What it's like when childrendon't go to school and how they
learn out of school.
And then as they started to geta bit, a little bit older and
went to a learning settingrather than being at home all
the time, I had more time tothink and I was starting to
think about my first book,Changing Our Minds, because I
was thinking as my, my trainingas a clinical psychologist and
(04:58):
what I see happening in schools.
So much do not come together.
You know, the things that I wastaught that children need, the
things that I can see that myown children need isn't what
we're providing in schools.
And then what's happening iswhen the children don't fit into
that system we're pathologizingthe children, rather than
saying, hang on a minute, maybewe've designed a system that
(05:20):
really isn't fit for a lot ofour children.
We are saying, oh, we've gotchildren who aren't fit for a
lot of our schools.
How do we squeeze the childrenin?
How do we make the children lessdifferent?
How do we, you know, make surethey can do everything on
schedule that we want forschool?
And particularly seeing in thelast 20 years in the UK, and I
don't know if it's the same inAustralia.
(05:40):
The education system here hasgot much more exam focused, much
more pressured, much more kindof what they call
accountability, but what itmeans is testing children all
the way through school.
It's become a very anxioussystem right from the start, and
it means there's very littleflexibility.
And I think it's odd that thatsystem's been changed without
(06:03):
anybody ever saying, what theimpact will be on those children
in terms of their wellbeing.
It's like everybody's so focusedon exam results are the answer,
we've got to drive up standards,we've got to raise expectations.
We've got to get a hundredpercent attendance.
Nobody ever seems to stop think,and if we introduce this test
for six year olds, I wonder whatimpact that might have on their
(06:24):
anxiety levels or their parents'anxiety levels or the teacher's
anxiety levels?
Nobody seemed to ask that atall.
And at the same time, so as mychildren got a bit older, I've
worked in various places as aclinical psychologist, but I was
working in a neurodevelopmentalteam in South London.
I was seeing lots of childrenwho had waited for about two
(06:45):
years for an assessment.
They were coming to us for anautism or an ADHD assessment,
and they were often desperatefor this diagnosis.
And the reason was thatbasically school had said
there's can be no extra helpavailable unless you get this
diagnosis.
And then they were sent and puton this waiting list for two
years.
And I would listen to thestories the children were
telling me, almost always abouthow school was very difficult
(07:07):
and had gone wrong.
I would think, but the onlything I can do now as a clinical
psychologist is write a reportabout all the things that you
can't do, all the things thatyou are aware, you are
effectively not measuring up.
There is no avenue for me towrite something which says I'm
concerned about what's going onin your school.
Actually, I'm concerned thatsince you brought in this very
(07:29):
punitive behavior system, we areseeing increasing levels of
highly distressed young peopleover here in health.
There's no feedback system.
They very rarely askpsychologists about education.
In fact, if you try and sayanything, you'll get told very
quickly that you have nothing tosay and that you don't
understand what you're talkingabout and that you're not a
teacher.
Of course, I'm absolutely not ateacher.
(07:51):
But I do work with young peopleand I do hear about them.
And also I do have training inhow young people develop and how
they learn.
And I feel like we've developedthese schools, which
unfortunately are notpsychologically healthy places
for young people.
Then what we are doing isblaming the young people and
their families rather thanthinking about how we could
(08:11):
redesign school.
So that's an elaborate pottedhistory.
I apologize.
Leisa Reichelt (08:17):
That's okay.
We covered a lot of veryrelevant ground there.
Thank you.
So you've written a bunch ofvery, very helpful books The
latest one that you've writtenis actually to the teenagers.
And it's about burnout.
Why did you feel that you neededto write a book about burnout
and why to teenagers?
Dr Naomi Fisher (08:38):
Well,'cause parents were often saying to me.
What about our teenagers?
You know, we've read your books.
We like your books.
They've helped us change ourmindset about what's going on at
school.
They've helped us see thatperhaps the problem isn't our
children, but perhaps it'sactually the system.
But our teenagers the booksaren't accessible to them.
They're not interested inreading them.
They don't listen to what I say.
(08:59):
And they still very much believethat they are the problem, not
the system.
And often they're still in thatsystem and they're being told
explicitly that they are theproblem.
I worked with one boy who wastold at school that if he didn't
keep attending every day, he'dend up under a bridge.
And there are lots of other kidsI met who were told things like
that.
And they were so despairingthese teenagers because, I think
(09:23):
back to my own experience and Iremember what it was like to
really not be thriving at schooland to find school attendance so
difficult.
At least I knew that there wereother places where I had felt
happy and okay, and because ofthat, I had the faith that there
would be another place where Iwould be okay.
Whereas I think when you havekids who've gone through one
(09:45):
school or two schools, and it'salways been like this.
They don't have that sense ofhope, that actually, you know,
you, you'll leave school,everybody leaves school, it
finishes.
The bizarre thing about schoolis once you've got over the age
of school, nobody will let yougo back, even if you really
wanted to, it's a one chancething in terms of age, it is a
discreet phase of life, but Ithink for teenagers it doesn't
(10:09):
feel like that.
Particularly when they're toldschool is the only way you're
going to succeed.
Leisa Reichelt (10:13):
It might be a once off thing, but it's like if
you mess this up, theconsequences
Dr Naomi Fisher (10:17):
will be lifelong life.
Yes.
They're told that all the time,and I just wanted to present
something that said, you knowwhat?
That doesn't have to be that waybecause that hopelessness is, I
think the worst thing.
It's the thought that not onlyis my life really awful now,
it's going to be like thisforever because of this
particular phase of life.
Tiffany Westphal (10:38):
It's really important that we challenge
that, sense because there's sucha strong narrative and schools
drive it and governments driveit, this idea that you have to
get an education to make asuccess of yourself, you know
that you have to have been toschool.
And it's just that people don'tknow any of the other
alternatives really.
I always get really distressedwhen people say to me, the
(10:59):
pediatrician said, we shouldn'thome educate or we shouldn't do
distance education.
Dr Naomi Fisher (11:03):
People say things and I think with home
education or with educationoutside of school, it's one of
those things that professionalsare often very prepared to say
things on when they actuallydon't know.
You know, it's like they presentsocietal misconceptions as a
medical opinion, which I thinkis really dangerous because it
gets such a lot of extra weightbecause it's being said by a
(11:24):
professional.
And yet all it is is whatthey've read in the newspaper or
what someone said to them, orwhat they've seen happen to the
child down the road.
They're not medically trained toknow about home education or
alternatives.
Leisa Reichelt (11:35):
Let's dig into burnout.
Dr Naomi Fisher (11:37):
Yeah, Sorry.
Leisa Reichelt (11:38):
No, no, that's fine.
Like it's hard'cause there'sjust so, there's so much to
cover, I think we have peoplewho, definitely know that their
child is in burnout because theylike literally collapse into a
darkened room., yes.
but my experience with my son isa little bit different we gave
him enough accommodation that hecould just keep his nose above
(11:59):
the water.
He didn't quite get to collapse,but he absolutely was not fun at
all for him.
He's still very much in recoveryat the moment.
How can a parent know, what arethe signs that what you're
seeing is actually burnout?
That it's not, they're a bittired or they need to get some
more exercise and some freshair.
It's not anxiety that it isactually burnout.
Dr Naomi Fisher (12:21):
Yeah, so burnout is really interesting
because it's not in thediagnostic manual that we use as
psychologists and psychiatriststo diagnose what would be called
mental disorders is the manual.
That isn't the terminology I'duse, but that's the terminology.
Um, it's because it's defined asan occupational phenomena rather
than a medical problem.
I like that.
(12:42):
The fact that it's like thatbecause basically what it's
saying is burnout isn't actuallya problem in the person.
It's a problem of theenvironment of chronic stress.
So essentially when you're in anenvironment of chronic stress
for a long time, you feeltrapped in that environment.
At some point, your body andbrain goes, no more can't do it
anymore.
I'm just cutting outeffectively.
And I do think it's related tothis kind of hopelessness.
(13:04):
It's like, there's no way out ofthis for me.
The only thing I can do is growup to the point where nobody's
going to make me go to schoolanymore.
There's no other way out.
So I just cut out and it'sabsolutely not intentional.
It's an unconscious thing ofyour brain and body.
Just say enough.
I think you're right.
There are the young people arevery clearly in burnout and it's
like, I can't leave the house.
I don't want to do anything.
(13:26):
Nothing brings me any joyanymore.
I have no energy for anything.
And then there are the youngpeople where it kind of seems to
be bobbing along.
And I think the really key thingthat I say to parents to look
out for is a loss of excitementabout doing anything, even the
things they used to enjoy.
That can gradually creep up onpeople.
(13:46):
People often say they lose theirspark, so they lose their spark
about school stuff quitequickly.
Often, you know, none of it'sinteresting.
Doesn't matter what the schooloffers, it's not interesting.
I don't want to do it.
I'm not curious anymore.
I'm not asking questionsanymore.
But then when it starts tospread to, I'm just not curious
about anything anymore.
(14:07):
So, you know, maybe they used toreally enjoy making really
complicated Lego models and nowthey're just like, just don't
want to, can't be bothered.
So there's kind of just sense ofapathy and lethargy that spreads
to everything.
I think that is a really keysign that this is something
quite serious.
Life is now, you're just goingthrough the motions and you're
just going through the motionsat home and at school.
(14:29):
It doesn't really matter whathappens, you are still just
going through the motions.
There might be a couple of dayswhen people are like that in
life, but if that's happening ona sustained basis and you're
looking back and thinking, youknow, for the last six months
it's just kind of like nothingis interesting.
I think you need to start beingconcerned.
(14:49):
And of course the thing is thatteenagers move a bit more into
that kind of stage slightlyanyway, so there can be
confusion of is this just beinga normal teenager?
But I think that when there isjust no desire to do anything.
Even like when they're withtheir friends, they're not
animated.
When they're playing a videogame, they're not animated.
There's no kind of, oh yeah,that would be nice.
(15:11):
That sort of spark.
When that's not there, then Ithink that's a sign that you are
either in burnout or that theyare heading.
Quite quickly towards that.
Leisa Reichelt (15:21):
I think that's really helpful because I think
especially when you haveteenagers, like you say, there
is a little bit of that naturalinclination anyway, and I've
heard so many people and I'vedefinitely had the feeling
myself where you go, is this kidjust getting lazy?
Is he, can he just not bebothered anymore?
Is my job actually to push that?
What I should be doing now is tonot let him get lazy, keep him
(15:41):
motivated, keep pushing and itcan take time, I think, can't it
to distinguish.
Dr Naomi Fisher (15:46):
It's very subtle.
Tiffany Westphal (15:48):
I just want to ask, a lot of the, signs of
burnout seem very similar tosigns of depression too?
Yeah.
And I think, that was the firstthing that our general
practitioner, did an assessmenton my child for depression.
Mm-hmm.
And so then that, ensued acertain treatment plan, I just
wonder if you have somereflection on the difference?
Dr Naomi Fisher (16:10):
What were they asked to do for depression?
Tiffany Westphal (16:11):
Oh, medication.
Okay.
And, you know, CBT and copingskills, but
Leisa Reichelt (16:18):
Get outside.
Go for a walk.
Get some fresh air and go talkto people.
All of these things which,
Tiffany Westphal (16:23):
More demands, which do sound like a good idea.
Exercise.
Yep.
Dr Naomi Fisher (16:26):
Yep.
So, I mean, it's.
First thing to know is that thiswhole area is much more vague
than everybody thinks it is.
When we say given a diagnosis ofdepression or anxiety, that
means that we know what that isand that's different to
everything else.
In fact, it's all much moreblurred.
We know now from science thatbasically you can't divide
people up easily into differentdiagnostic groups.
(16:48):
They're all much more.
It's just a lot morecomplicated.
So I think the main problem witha diagnosis of depression is
that basically, again, puts theproblem back into the child.
Yeah.
So it says we need to changetheir reactions to this
environment, which is, whyyou've got the medication or the
CBT and I think the absolutelykey thing is that people need to
(17:11):
be thinking, so what's going onin this child's life that isn't
working for them?
Rather than, what's wrong withthis child right now?
And that should be the firstport of call.
Because even if a child'sdepressed, the first question
should be, so why are theydepressed?
It isn't just something thatarises out of nowhere.
Yeah, a lot.
Depression is about reaction tolife circumstances in the same
way as burnout can be.
(17:32):
So let's think about what'sgoing on in their life before we
think about how to change them.
I'm a psychologist, not apsychiatrist, so I don't
prescribe medication it cansometimes help, but none of
these things should be used totry and push a child back into
an environment that wasn'tworking for them.
That's the thing.
I don't think any interventionshould be used in that way.
(17:55):
The first thing should be why isthis not working for this child?
We need to be open with, thereneeds to be the idea, maybe
school isn't the right place forthis child.
Maybe this school isn't theright place for this child.
Tiffany Westphal (18:06):
I agree.
One of the things we say atSchool Can't Australia is that
we need to look upstream ofmental ill health.
Because mental ill health islike smoke in relation to a
fire.
It's what's caused the house tocatch fire.
What's going on for that kid?
What are the stressors?
Often mental ill health is.
Like physical ill health.
(18:26):
If you are stressed for longenough, you become mentally
unwell.
You become eventually physicallyunwell, and that's what's
happening to our kids.
Dr Naomi Fisher (18:37):
Yeah.
One of the things I say in theburnout book, is that these
things are signs, not causes.
So I think there's a, there's apicture from one of my other
books where a child holding upsemaphore flags and they say on
them things like self harm,meltdowns and controlling
behavior.
They're all signs that thingsaren't going right in this
child's life.
Signs of distress.
(18:57):
Yeah, signs of distress.
Exactly.
And people show their distressin different ways, people
develop depression.
Some become very anxious, somego into burnout, some develop
eating disorders or OCD.
There are all sorts of differentways to respond to distress and
we can get overly fixated onwhich bit of distress is you and
how do we deal with that ratherthan what's going on upstream to
(19:19):
cause so many distressed youngpeople.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (19:25):
So we have a child, we think to ourselves.
It's quite possible that they'renot being lazy, that they're
actually having a reaction to anenvironment, and this is what
I'm seeing here is some burnout.
In an ideal world, as a parent,what do I do then?
Dr Naomi Fisher (19:43):
Oof.
Only there was an ideal world.
It's funny we alluded already,didn't we, to how this period of
life is always talked about asbeing particularly crucial,
which effectively means there'sless flexibility in this stage
of life than any other stage oflife.
And also a kind of catastrophicprojection about this stage of
(20:03):
life that there isn't aboutanother stage of life.
Because if an adult is headingtowards burnout.
It might be okay, you need a bitof time off, you need to take
some time off and just regroup abit and have time to think about
what's going on.
I think often what parents wantand what young people want as
well, actually, and certainlywhat schools want is a solution.
Let's fix this, let's put thisin place so that they'll be able
to carry on.
(20:23):
I think the first stage ofrecovering from burnout is just
to stop for a bit and say, let'sjust breathe.
Let's just take some timewithout thinking about solutions
right now, and just think aboutreconnection.
Try to build a relationship withyour child that isn't to do with
school, because when school isgoing wrong for a child,
(20:46):
everything in that child's lifecan become about school and how
it's not going well becauseparents are drawn in, aren't
they?
They, you know, it is theparent's job to get them to
school every morning.
It's the parent's job to patchthem together in the evenings
and to help them get theirhomework done.
Sometimes if a child's reallystruggling at school, parents
will invest money in tutors.
I was talking to this, autisticyoung man who doesn't like
(21:08):
maths.
He's at college now and hereally doesn't like maths.
And he said his mom was tryingto get him to do extra maths out
of college.
And he said to her, in whatworld is the answer to hating
maths to do more maths?
In the whole school world, thatis pretty well the answer my son
did go to preschool for a bitand he didn't like preschool.
He went a couple of mornings aweek and the original answer to
(21:30):
that was more preschool.
So the staff said, if he'sstruggling with two come five
mornings a week.
Tiffany Westphal (21:36):
There's another one of those narratives
though, isn't it too, that whensomebody finds something
difficult, we say you need tolearn to push through that, or
you need to learn to be able tocope better or be more resilient
or, and the only way to do thatis to have more of that
experience because you learnthat it's not so bad.
Then we start to use exposureplans and we're like, you know,
(21:59):
you're going to push through thedistress.
You're going to realize thatyour brain is tricking you and
it's not that bad.
Dr Naomi Fisher (22:07):
And that's when you get burnout.
I think when you've been told,it is a recipe for burnout.
If we tell parents you've got tomake home less pleasant, you
must not allow them to do thingsthat they enjoy at home.
Well, that's going to go well.
And you must force them to gointo school by whatever means
possible.
I've heard parents told thingslike, you should take them in
their pajamas, put the clothesin the car, take them in.
(22:30):
I've had people say, the headteacher said they would come and
pick them up from home so thatyou wouldn't have to get them in
the car.
Tiffany Westphal (22:36):
Or give them a special job before school,
feeding the school pets.
Dr Naomi Fisher (22:39):
Absolutely.
Yes.
Get them in.
Yeah.
And then if you just think aboutthat with adults, if you thought
about an adult who was saying,I'm really struggling with this
job, it really isn't making mefeel good.
I've had jobs like that.
I really don't like being there.
Would we say, well, the answeris to do less nice things at
home and to keep going no matterwhat.
(23:02):
I had a job as an adult where, Iwas working in an open plan
office and I just found itreally difficult for many
reasons, but it started to makeme feel physically ill again.
And I think for me, Iexperienced my stress very
physically and I know that now.
I didn't know that when I was ateenager.
Now I notice when I'm startingto get these kind of prickly
feelings and I'm starting to getthem at night as well, I've got
(23:22):
a little red flag going up in mybrain going, okay, this is high
stress for me.
This isn't working well.
And I was able to quit that job.
I felt bad about it.
I was still in my probationperiod, but I was like, I don't
think this is going to getbetter for me because this is
how the job is set up.
I can go and find another job.
We don't allow children thatsame basic autonomy of this
(23:45):
isn't working for me.
I need something different.
And I don't really understandwhy we have such a different
approach.
You're absolutely right Tiffany.
It's a recipe for burnout tomake life less fun at home, and
then make sure they go into theplace they're not happy and you
break that relationship with theparents.
And that's, I think, the thingthat really needs to be rebuilt
in this recovery stage.
The parent needs to be saying,I'm sorry that I did these
(24:07):
things.
I was told that I had to.
I did it out of good intentionsand now let's reconnect on the
things that are important toyou.
So finding those things wherethere is still a teeny little
bit of, oh yes, I might like todo that.
If it's, cooking cupcakes at11.30 at night, or if it's
playing video games together, Italked to one mother who said
(24:28):
her 14-year-old came out ofschool and for a while, she was
just literally in her room.
Didn't do anything.
And then I saw her'wants' comingback and I liked that little
thing of her'wants', you know,that she wanted to do something
again.
And I think that's when youstart to see the tiny signs of
emergence from burnout.
But young people rarely get tothat point until they're
(24:49):
confident that that will notmean that they're quickly forced
back into school.
Because the, the dilemma thatyou have as a young person who's
not attending school'causeyou're in burnout, is the moment
you start to look at all better.
People will say, great, let'sget a plan back in place for you
to go back to school.
It's an impossible situation.
And it's not consciouslyimpossible, they're not
consciously thinking, I mustn'tget better.
(25:11):
It is literally impossible toget better if you know that's
just going to mean a quickreturn to the place that made
you so unwell in the firstplace.
Leisa Reichelt (25:19):
Yeah, I feel so guilty listening to this.
I really do.
Well, because it can just take,it's like you, we get so
indoctrinated, don't we, on theway through as like what needs
to happen.
All the other messages reallyare, you just need to do
everything you possibly can tokeep them at school.
Try this, try this, try this,try this, and you work your way
(25:39):
through all of these differentways.
And actually all you're doing isprolonging the situation.
Yeah.
Once you do finally see thelight and you have a burnt out
young person at home, how do wenot let ourselves do exactly
(26:03):
what you described.
How do we stop ourselves fromgoing, oh look, they're getting
better now we can do things andnot feel guilty as a parent,
you're just constantly feel likeyou're walking the line of being
negligent in one way ornegligent in another way.
Right?
How do we make sure when we arelooking after our young people
in burnout that we're notactually being negligent parents
(26:23):
by just giving them all the timeand space to do whatever they
want to do, even if that'sabsolutely nothing except
sitting in front of a screenwatching YouTube.
Dr Naomi Fisher (26:30):
Isn't it funny how with children, we are always
kind of in these dichotomies aswell?
'cause I get told this all thetime.
You mean you just do nothing orwe just do nothing?
No, basically, I think it's a,it's a, needs to be a conscious
shift in direction because weare all told that the way to a
happy, healthy, functioningchild is through school.
(26:50):
That is the only way, and thatif we can channel them through
school, then all the other stuffwill follow.
And I've been told thatactually, I've been on Twitter,
I've been told that by teachers,when I say wellbeing is really
important, they'll say, well,when they're doing well at
school, then they'll feel goodabout themselves.
That's the root to wellbeing andthe problem is if you are a
(27:11):
child who isn't doing well andwho isn't thriving, then that
route isn't working for you.
That route of you must do wellat school and then you will be
allowed to be happy.
I have to say I don't think itworks for those who do do well
at school as well, particularly,but that is what we're told.
So I think as the parent, youneed to effectively take a
really conscious shift the otherdirection and go, we are going
(27:32):
to focus on wellbeing first.
Because actually that's thefoundation of growing up to be a
fully functioning adult, thatright at the base we have to
have wellbeing.
That might mean making somecontroversial decisions.
It might mean saying, actuallyyes, we might be out of school
for a bit, because actuallywellbeing is more important at
(27:55):
this stage.
And do you know what?
Academics can come later?
You don't have to do it wheneverybody else does it.
It is possible and actuallysometimes easier to come back
and do those things in your lateteens or even your early
twenties.
But the wellbeing part, oncethat's gone, that's really hard
to get back.
Particularly wellbeing in yourteen years because it's a
(28:18):
foundational stage of humandevelopment when you are forming
this identity of yourself.
And I think that's why Isometimes meet parents who've
done things like take their kidsaway traveling for six months.
And I think that that's partlybecause that's feels just a bit
more socially acceptable thanwe're just going to take them
out of school for six months.
You know, it's like we're havinga great family adventure and
(28:40):
we're doing this thing.
And you can kind of frame it asa educational experience, which
of course it's in lots of ways,but it's also just a way to, to,
it's like a circuit break, Imeet families who've taken their
kids traveling for a few months.
And that has led to a kind ofre-imagining of how is this
going to work now?
Because it's, let's think aboutit.
'cause that you've built in thatspace.
I think when you've got a childwho's struggling at school, your
(29:02):
whole family life is taken overwith that.
There's no space to take stock Iremember it well myself.
It's like that sort ofrollercoaster of Sunday evening
kind of down'cause you've got awhole week to go and then you
kind of gradually building upduring the week and you get to
the weekend and then it's like,whoosh, down we go again.
It's just relentless.
There's no time to stop andthink.
(29:24):
One of the things I say toparents is.
You are on this rollercoasteralways hoping that things are
going to get better.
You are always thinking, if wejust do this, maybe it will all
be better and you can be on thatrollercoaster for years.
Eliza Fricker, who was theillustrator of the book actually
her daughter had lots of troubleat school and didn't attend
secondary school, but she saidwe did eight years of maybe this
(29:48):
thing will get better, maybethis will work.
Meetings at school, endless.
Just this kind of up and down.
It's an awful place to be andthat actually leads to parental
burnout as well as young people.
'cause you're on this sort ofadrenaline rush that, you know,
highs and lows all the time.
So I think the first thing to dois if as a parent you can get a
bit of space to reflect awayfrom your child, just to think
(30:10):
about what is it really likeright now, and if it carries on
being just like this, there's nokind of happy ever after moment
when everybody becomes happy atschool.
Is it okay?
If we just carry on like it isnow, am I going to feel okay
about that?
If that carries on until they're18, and if not.
(30:30):
Well then just think about that.
That is the reality.
That's what's really therebecause often we don't, we don't
compare what reality is withother options.
We compare what we would like itto be like with other options.
So we think, obviously I wouldprefer them to be happy and
thriving at school.
That's my number one, that'swhat I'd like.
But what about if that actuallyisn't an option?
(30:52):
What about if we take that oneoff the table?
Because it's not happening andit hasn't happened despite all
these years of trying.
And actually what we've got isthis current situation.
Then what is, what might be theother options?
Might there be something elsethat might be better in that
case?
Leisa Reichelt (31:07):
You're describing my life right now.
Honestly, Naomi, I've just beenthrough this exact process.
I went to the school today towithdraw my son the last attempt
for now at at at at schooling,because Yeah, exactly that.
You know, it is been such adifficult few years and we've
tried so many things and theexperience for him has been just
(31:30):
consistently awful.
And it's like, how many moreyears are, are we going to go
through this?
It's just, yeah, life's, life'stoo precious.
Tiffany Westphal (31:40):
I say to people, my daughter survived 10
years of trying to be at school.
And we pulled her out at thebeginning of this year.
We had a lovely high schoolthough.
You know, I chose a secondaryschool that was trauma informed
and, neurodiverse affirming and,really great school.
But the trauma from primaryschool came with her.
Leisa Reichelt (32:00):
That's exactly what I was saying to the
principal today.
This school is a great school.
If we'd have brought my sonhere, two or three years ago, he
probably would've had an amazingtime.
But I think he's just so damagedby all the things that we've
tried that no school environmentis going to work right now.
So we have a little reset.
Tiffany Westphal (32:19):
trauma is really sticky, once you get to
that point where your nervoussystem is so impacted by your
past experiences, you know, ourchildren need safety.
They don't have anything left tonavigate something that feels
unsafe.
So, yeah, my daughter's at homerecovering.
Recovery will take as long as itwill take.
(32:40):
I've said that to her, shehasn't been able to leave the
house since before Christmas.
She managed to go have ahaircut.
She slept for half a dayafterwards.
She connects with me forco-regulation and hugs.
She thinks dad's hugs are not asgood as mine, so it's got to be
me or the dog.
And that's the way we're rockingand rolling at the moment, is
(33:02):
food, hugs, sleeping, listeningto music, watching videos.
Leisa Reichelt (33:08):
Well, the good news for us, Tiffany, is that
Naomi's just told us we shouldplan a big adventure and go
traveling.
No, I couldn't.
My, my child wouldn't have
Tiffany Westphal (33:17):
capacity for that at the moment
Dr Naomi Fisher (33:19):
People get to different points, don't they?
You get to the point of totalbreakdown and then it's like
there aren't any choices anymorethere because they just can't
go.
There is no way.
when I'm talking about goingaway, traveling, it's like.
We are heading in thatdirection, but I don't know
quite how to stop this becauseperhaps school don't see a
problem at all.
Or perhaps, you know, we've beenjust bobbing along at this level
(33:40):
for so long and there's nocrisis pushing us.
Then I think sometimes it'sworth thinking about what I call
a circuit breaker, and that'swhat I think going away is.
It's like we can, we can do thisbefore we get to that point of
total breakdown.
Because you're right, once youget to the point of total
breakdown, you.
No, no, no choice anymore.
Tiffany Westphal (33:59):
Yeah, there's a huge difference between a
child who is really early on intheir, journey of distress in
relation to school.
If we can catch a child early,we can identify what those
stressors are and do somethingabout those stressors, that kid
can go back happily to schooland probably be fine.
For some time.
(34:19):
But the child who haspersistently struggled again and
again, who's experienced chronicstress, is the kind of kid who
ends up burned out.
Leisa Reichelt (34:30):
I think one of the other things, when you were
talking about traveling youtalked about the socially
acceptable version of takingtime out from school.
I wonder if we can just touchbriefly on the socially
unacceptable way of taking timeout from school, which is to sit
in your darkened room with thecurtains drawn in front of a
screen gaming or, doing thingson screens.
You know there you've combinedtwo of the most difficult social
(34:53):
aspects of parenting, which isnot being at school and letting
your kids have extensive amountsof screen time.
Are you able to speak to thatbriefly?
Dr Naomi Fisher (35:01):
Yes.
So I mean, these are the thingsthat activate our bad parenting
kind of schema, I would say,aren't they?
In one of the, the other bookwe've done that When The Naughty
Step Makes Things Worse, whichis my other book with Eliza,
which is about parenting, wetalk about the good parent tm,
like what good parenting goodparents do, and what everybody,
(35:22):
the things that everybodyaccepts as a society that good
parents should do.
And sending your child to schoolis number one, I'd say, of being
a good parent.
And then limiting screen time isanother part then there are all
the things like making themshare and take turns and please
and thank you, and all thosekind of things that are
Leisa Reichelt (35:39):
lots of sport.
Dr Naomi Fisher (35:40):
Oh yes.
Playing sport, you've got to getyour tick boxes of what the well
performing child does.
Because I say that they, theybasically judge parents by what
their child does.
So the child is the outcome.
If your child is performing upto these level, then you are a
good parent that reflects backon you.
What that means is that theparents who have the hardest
(36:01):
time parenting feel absolutelyawful about themselves the
parents, you have a reallystraightforward time, feel great
about themselves, and everybodythinks they're doing great.
I remember noticing this when mychildren were very small and
they weren't sleeping throughthe night at all.
and the parents who had babieswho slept through the night
were.
Intolerably smug about itbecause they felt it was
(36:23):
something that they had done.
Leisa Reichelt (36:26):
That was me for baby number one.
then I had baby number two and Irealized it was nothing to do
with me.
Dr Naomi Fisher (36:32):
Baby number two is really good for that.
Mine were actually the other wayaround, I had baby number one
who didn't do any of the things,and baby number two, who did?
And I was like, oh, okay.
The same thing happens withthings like coming out of
school, there's the assumptionisn't there, that if you had
just done things differently,you wouldn't be in this position
other parents say things like,oh, we just don't give us the
option, which is really helpful.
(36:53):
Um, so I think it's a reallyhard place to be as a parent and
really hard place to hold as aparent because there's so much
societal judgment.
So I think the thing to do thereis to really think about what
your values are and why you'remaking that decision for your
child, even if it doesn't feellike much of a decision.
And I think it's aboutwellbeing.
(37:15):
It's about saying we're going toprioritize wellbeing now.
But also the other thing I oftensay to parents is whenever
there's a difficult situationregarding your child.
And particularly regarding thejudgment of other people.
Just think about what is themost important relationship
here?
Who, and it's always going to bethe relationship with your child
(37:35):
because pretty well all theother relationships, they will
come and go.
You know, all those people atschool who seem so important
now.
Few years time, your child willhave aged out of the school
system.
They will be past memories.
They will not be involved inyour child's life.
You will still be involved inyour child's life.
You want this relationship withyour child to be the longest
relationship in your life, to bethe longest relationship in
(37:57):
their life.
And so if you can build that upnow, you are building something
for the future for both of you.
Leisa Reichelt (38:05):
Two quick ones to wrap up near me and then,
I'll let you get back to yourday.
first one is the burnout book.
Yeah, the Beautiful Burnoutbook, written for teenagers.
probably mostly read by moms.
Think so, yes.
Hopefully also teenagers aswell.
Dr Naomi Fisher (38:23):
It's one to leave lying around.
Leisa Reichelt (38:25):
I will respectfully submit that.
If I could get this in YouTubeshorts, it would really take
off.
Yeah.
Tiffany Westphal (38:32):
my daughter's tolerating having me read parts
of it to her and she's going,oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (38:37):
That's true.
But if you, for, you know, formoms who are reading it, yeah.
If you could pick out like oneor two, like really key messages
that you would want them to takeaway, what would they be?
Dr Naomi Fisher (38:51):
It isn't a disaster to stop going to
school.
It isn't a one chance thingyou've got to do in life.
It is okay for school not towork for a while.
There is still going to be afuture.
There's still going to be ahope.
And for parents, holding ontothat hope for the future is our
(39:13):
job, really, because teenagersfind that really difficult.
They don't have the same lifeexperience as we do.
They don't have the sameexperience of life having ups
and downs.
So often when they're down, itjust feels like it's always
going to be like this.
I'm always going to be down.
And particularly when they'vebeen told.
If you don't go to school, thiswill happen.
This will happen then.
(39:33):
There's never good things, isit?
You're never told good thingsabout what will happen if you
don't go to school.
So we need to activelycounteract that as parents.
And if you think about all theschool propaganda there is out
there, all the stuff we tell ourchildren right from when they're
three or four about how greatschool is.
There's this place ofopportunity and learning.
If you are a child for whom itdoesn't feel like that you're
(39:55):
like, why?
Why am I not?
you think, why is it not likethat for me?
Is it because there's somethingwrong with me?
So I think we really have to, asparents, counteract all of that
propaganda.
And that's why I wrote the bookactually.
'cause parents said they won'tlisten to me.
They don't believe what I say.
So I thought, I want to have abook that shows that you as
parents are not the only personsaying this.
(40:17):
You aren't the only people whoare trying to present something
different.
There are other people out there
Leisa Reichelt (40:21):
as I'm going to venture that they won't find
this book in the local schoollibrary, though it probably
won't be top of the pops forteachers, I don't think.
Um, but that yeah, thatresonates with me so much
because when I finally decidedthat we were done with school
for the moment.
It took me weeks to get my sonto even contemplate it because
(40:43):
I'd been part of the propagandamachine for years, telling him
how important school was
Tiffany Westphal (40:48):
my daughter experienced intense grief for
about four or five weeks afterwe made the decision.
She's the third of my childrenand the other two finished
school.
She's sure she's never going tofinish high school the way that
her siblings did, and she maynot.
But her journey is unique and,it'll be what it'll be.
And I'll always be here as herparent to provide that safe
(41:08):
landing space and support.
I'm not worried by it, but sheis, holding space for grief and,
helping her see the light andthe future.
That there will be a road torecovery.
it's a slow one though.
Dr Naomi Fisher (41:24):
It is.
I think it because it can feellike you've canceled the future
when you stop going to school.
school has such a predictablething, doesn't it?
You keep going.
You'll be in year nine.
You'll be in year 10.
You'll be in year 11.
All you need to do is keepshowing up and you'll keep
moving up those layers.
And then it feels like I'vestepped off that and now what's
happening?
Are they all going off withoutme?
Where am I going?
Where's my progress?
(41:44):
And it's, harder.
It's always hard
Tiffany Westphal (41:46):
to go the road less traveled.
Dr Naomi Fisher (41:49):
Absolutely.
Leisa Reichelt (41:50):
Finally, Naomi, if people want to find out more
of all the great resources thatyou put out in the world, where
is the best place for people toconnect with you and learn more?
Dr Naomi Fisher (42:02):
So my website is naomifisher.co.uk and you'll
find links to all of my workthere and you can join my
mailing list.
I also have a substack, which iscalled Think Again: Making
Childhood Fit for Children.
If you're not a social mediaperson.
Or if you don't want to sign upfor mail list and things, then
that's a newsletter that justcomes once a week into your
(42:23):
email.
That's a good place if you wantto share my posts, because I put
lots of stuff out there onFacebook and Instagram and
LinkedIn, but it kind ofdisappears after a while.
You know, it is hard to searchit, but on the Substack you can
go back and there's an archiveof a couple of years of short
things that I've written.
those are the places to start.
Leisa Reichelt (42:39):
Amazing.
And I would thoroughly recommendthe webinars that are on there.
there's a whole selection and Ipersonally have found them
extremely helpful on difficulttopics.
we will put links to all of thatin the notes so that people can
go in and take a look forthemselves.
Well, thank you Naomi.
It's been just such privilegehearing you talk and, and
(43:01):
learning from you.
And I really appreciate youtaking the time.
Dr Naomi Fisher (43:04):
Thank you very much for inviting me.
Leisa Reichelt (43:06):
Okay.
Well, how wonderful to havespent some time with Dr.
Naomi Fisher today.
Honestly, I could have spoken toher for hours and hours.
She has so much wisdom andinsight that's relevant to
people who are trying to supportkids struggling in mainstream
school.
I really do recommend taking alook at Naomi's website.
She has an abundance ofresources that tackles some of
(43:27):
the stickiest topics that you'relikely to come up against.
I put a link in the episodenotes for you to take a look.
I also put a link to the SchoolCan't Australia website, which
has more resources and theopportunity to donate to School
Can't Australia.
Your tax deductible donationshelp us to raise community
awareness, partner withresearchers, produce resources
(43:48):
like webinars and this podcast.
All of these things assistpeople who are supporting
children and young peopleexperiencing School Can't.
If you have an expert that youwould like us to talk to on the
podcast, please email us and letus know and we will do our best
to get them on.
You can email us atschoolcantpodcast@gmail.com.
(44:08):
If you are a parent or a carerin Australia and you are feeling
distressed, remember you canalways call the parent helpline
in your state.
A link with the number to callis also in the episode notes.
Thank you again for listening.
I hope you enjoyed meetingNaomi, and we will talk again
soon.
Take care.
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