In this episode we explore potential signs of alien life on exoplanet K2-18b and discuss how pets impact our sleep quality, while special guest Dr. Sabina Vorah-Miller provides expert insights on vaccine misinformation and avian flu safety.
• Bunsen's recovery from a UTI and continued mobility improvements
• Recent James Webb Space Telescope findings detected dimethyl sulfide on exoplanet K2-18b
• Why scientists remain cautiously optimistic but skeptical about alien life evidence
• Study reveals pets in bed may not significantly impact sleep quality despite perception
• Dogs in bed provide stronger feelings of comfort than cats or human partners
And our guest:
• Public health expert Sabina Vorau-Miller explains vaccine hesitancy origins and misconceptions
• Current measles outbreaks and the importance of MMR vaccination
• HPV vaccine success in preventing cervical cancer
• Avian influenza (H5N1) spillover from birds to cattle and precautions for humans and pets
• Safety tips: consume only pasteurized milk, thoroughly cook meat, keep pets away from wild birds
Take care! Happy Easter if you celebrate!
Sabina's Links:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/unambiguousscience/
Our links!
Our Website! www.bunsenbernerbmd.com
Sign up for our Weekly Newsletter!
Bunsen and Beaker on Twitter:
Bunsen and Beaker on TikTok
For Science, Empathy, and Cuteness!
Being Kind is a Superpower.
https://twitter.com/bunsenbernerbmd
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hello science enthusiasts.
I'm Jason Zukoski.
And I'm Chris Zukoski, we'rethe pet parents of Bunsen,
beaker, bernoulli and Ginger.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
The science animals on social media.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
If you love science.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
And you love pets.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
You've come to the right spot, so put on your
safety glasses and hold on toyour tail.
This is the science podcast.
Hi everybody, welcome back tothe science podcast.
We hope you're happy andhealthy out there.
This is episode 11 of seasonseven.
Hey, that kind of rhymes.
Chris and I are going to betalking in this episode about
(00:46):
our lack of sleep.
Bunsen had a urinary tractinfection which was keeping him
up and keeping us up, butluckily it seems like the
antibiotics are really helpinghim.
So he's had a rough go lately,but like his.
The other some good news is hismobility keeps getting better,
week by week, week by a littlebit, um, so that's something
(01:09):
we're also noticing.
He still has some tippy tappymovement, uh, but he's moving
faster and with more confidenceand he wants to scamper and run
outside, but he's still on lightwalking.
We can't go off leash and andwe're going to be looking at
other things for rehab for himthat might help.
Some folks have suggestedhydrotherapy, and that's one
(01:30):
thing that Vet Clinic in towndoes.
So, yeah, we're looking forsome ways to get the big guy
back to 100%.
All right, well, what's on theshow this week in science news?
Is there alien life out there?
Maybe you've seen theclickbaity headlines, but chris
and I are going to put on ourskeptical hats and talk about
that planet that may or may nothave life on.
(01:51):
In pet science topical, as Imentioned, not a lot of sleep
happening here in the last uhweek, week and a half, two weeks
and we found a study about.
Do people with pets have lesssleep than people without pets?
We'll find out.
Our guest in Ask an Expert isdoctor of public health
candidate, sabina Vorau-Miller,and with all of the things
(02:15):
happening in the news withcommunicable diseases, a perfect
guess for uncertain times.
All right, let's get on withthe show, because there's no
time like science time.
This week in science news,chris and I are going to talk
about life potentially onanother planet.
(02:36):
I know I get really excitedabout space, but this story is
about as exciting as it possiblycan get Chris.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
I know space, but this story is about as exciting
as it possibly can get, chris.
I know now it is pretty recent,as of april 17th, and so lots
of people are talking about itand we have to be careful
because there's some clickbaitystuff out there that's right.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
That's the reason I picked this one is all over
social media, especially Twitteror X.
I've been seeing somesensational reporting on it and
though I want to keep everybodyreally excited, I think we need
to look at it with a skepticalhat.
So let's get going, and I guessthe lead or the clickbaity
(03:24):
title is Life May Be Found onAlien Planet K2-18b.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
It's not new.
It was discovered in 2015 bythe Kepler Space Telescope, but
the more recent findings come tous from the James Webb
Telescope.
K2-18b's, a catchy name, orbitsa red dwarf star, and it's
about 125 light years away fromus, from Earth.
(03:53):
And it's actually why it'sinteresting is because of its
location.
It's located in its star'shabitable zone, where liquid
water could potentially exist.
Now it's larger than Earth.
It's about 2.6 times Earth'sdiameter and 8.6 times its mass.
(04:16):
So they classify it as asub-Neptune or a mini-Neptune,
which is a planet type not foundin our solar backyard, in our
solar system.
And they're not sure what theexact composition of K2-18b is,
(04:36):
but models suggest that it couldbe a Heishen world, a
water-ocean planet under ahydrogen, a hydrogen rich
atmosphere.
So it has a name mashup like acelebrity status ginger newly,
or uh ches newly yeah, exactly,it's a mashup.
(04:58):
I don't even know.
I think that's how you wouldsay that hydrogen.
Hydrogen, hydrogen ocean.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yeah, I am filled with wonder about these
exoplanets.
The only planets we know arethe ones within our solar system
, and they're really cool.
But a large Earth, a superEarth, but potentially covered
of course there's debate on thispotentially covered with a
giant ocean that's bananas.
Now here's where the sciencecomes in.
(05:28):
Chris, you did a good jobexplaining what K2-18b is.
Sounds like it's a droid fromStar Wars 2D2.
Yeah, when exoplanets go infront of their host star like in
this case, it's a red dwarf theatmosphere is blasted by light.
So we are waiting patiently fora planet exoplanet to go in
(05:50):
front of its star.
And what's really crazy isthat's what JWST was built for
it has infrared sensors that areideal for looking at that light
from the star coming throughthe atmosphere of the exoplanet.
It's basically a detectivelooking for molecular
fingerprints in the atmospheres.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Yeah, and if you look at our eyes can't see through
our hand into our bones, butx-rays can.
And so with the James WebbSpace Telescope, with the
infrared sensors, it allows morecomplex measurements to be
taken.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Now, this did not happen quickly.
The team that was looking atthis planet used three of these
instruments on JWST and observedthis planet for over two years.
So the exciting thing is thegas that it found.
So the exciting thing is thegas that it found.
Now, the gas that it foundwasn't ones that you would think
of, oh, oxygen or nitrogen,which are the two main gases on
(06:50):
Earth.
They're sulfides, dimethylsulfide and dimethyl disulfide.
Now, why are these such a bigdeal, Chris?
Speaker 2 (07:10):
So on Earth, dimethyl sulfide is produced by
phytoplankton and it isn't knownto be created through
non-biological means.
So if they're thinking, hey,maybe it's this dimethyl sulfide
is being created by abiological means, but they're
not sure.
But what's really interestingis the molecules are appearing
in significant amounts.
Which, where is it coming from?
And that could potentiallysuggest possible biological
(07:31):
origin, but absolutely notconclusively.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
So we're going to put our skepticism hat on our
skeptical hat.
These detections are atsomething they classify a three
sigma level, which is a 0.3%chance.
The signal is random, but thegold standard is a five sigma
standard that is required forscientific confidence.
(07:55):
So, even though that's reallygood, it's not as high as they
were hoping.
Also, even though thistelescope is wicked powerful, if
you could hop on a beam oflight it would take you 125
years to get there.
So these signals are superfaint and, of course, when
there's really faint signals,any kind of like tiny plus minus
(08:17):
on your instruments, like pixelsensitivity, that could mimic
these real gases Hubble, ofcourse, famously mistook methane
for water on this exact sameplanet.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
That's not to say that they can't get to the five
sigma standard, but they wouldhave to observe the planet for
20 to 30 hours to get moreinformation and data.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
And then, lastly, dms , dimethyl sulfide, has been
created in labs and it's beenfound in comets, so it's not
exclusive to life, even thoughthe greatest amount of it is
created by phytoplankton here onEarth.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
So I don't know if there's going to be.
If we look at the big picture,the detection is not proof of
alien life but it is definitelya significant step in the search
.
But astronomers are stressingthe need for cautious
interpretation to definitelypreserve scientific credibility.
We don't want to say, oh, alienlife.
(09:22):
And then have to go back onthat because that's like the boy
who cried wolf.
So there may never actually bea single moment of woohoo, we
found aliens.
It might look more like agradual accumulation of evidence
over time.
But there's some threats tofunding, to NASA and other
(09:43):
programs which could delay orprevent future telescopes, for
example the habitable worldsobservatory that could help
confirm the biosignors.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Come, help confirm biosignage so I guess, in
conclusion, chris, this isextremely exciting.
It's a gas that could lead tothe conclusion that there's life
on this planet.
However, there's enoughskepticism to temper that with.
We need more data, and I thinkthat's the greatest thing about
(10:15):
space science is we can look upinto the stars and think about
life out there around thosestars in the sky and hopefully,
within our lifetime, we getthere.
Though I think if aliens comeknocking and they land and say
hello, probably we can point tothem and say we found aliens.
We won't need a gradualaccumulation of evidence then.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
I think I would be wishing that I had made a bunker
, because we don't have a bunker, but I wish.
I think I would be like I wishI had 10 year old tomato cans
and all the other stuff and gointo my bunker.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Hey, I've seen enough movies.
We can take out the aliens withwater, right?
Isn't that how you get rid ofthem?
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Yeah, just with normal water, just with normal
water.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
All right, that's science news for this week.
This week in pet science, we'regoing to talk about sleep
sleeping with your pets in yourbed.
This is topical because, chris,I'm pretty tired right now.
We've had a rough go this lastcouple of weeks.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
It's been a very long stretch that we have been
experiencing sleep deprivationand I think by saying a couple
of weeks it just makes it moremanageable.
But I don't think I've sleptsince we got Bernoulli in June
last year.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Like as good as you did before.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Jason, I love sleep, I love it, I need it.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Jason, I love sleep, I love it, I need it.
Yeah, the problem is thatBernoulli as a puppy was as an
early riser and he is doing sogood, like the last, I don't
know.
He crate trained tough at thestart and now he's great.
But the issue that where we had, especially this last couple
couple of weeks, potentially isthat Bunsen had a urinary tract
infection and he was barking attwo o'clock in the morning and
(12:08):
then we would have to take himout.
You caught that early andthat's gotten better, but still
like, when one dog startsbarking then they all start
spark, start barking, and thensometimes the cat is moving
around and fighting ghosts andthat sets them off and bernoulli
wants go play with his friend.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Why aren't we all awake?
Why aren't we all awake?
This is a great time to beawake.
It's 430 in the morning.
This is the best time, and I'mnot going to lie Jason, that's
time that I've got extra time todo marking and things and make
assignments it's I've made, Idon't know lemonade out of
(12:45):
lemons, out of the situation.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Yeah, was doing good like I could get up and do.
If I got up early I would havean extra hour for content, but
I'm running on empty now and Iknow you are.
So I saw this pop up and I waslike, wow, this is topical for
us to talk about.
On social media we do projectthis aura that we have
everything figured out with ourpets.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
But the last, especially the last two weeks,
with bunsen's getting up at two,I was like it progressively got
worse and then about a week agoit was really bad for two or
three nights in a row and I justsaid to myself self, I'm going
to call the vet and make anappointment because we've had
other health concerns with himthat we have shared through our
social media channels and so weare pretty transparent about
(13:28):
what's been going on, and I wasdoing a little bit of research
into potentially why a dog mightget a UTI and crystals and it
could be stress.
So Bunsen also could beexperiencing stress from the
whole body situation that he hadwith the tapeworm cyst removal
and then with his neck, and sowe can't blame him because he's
(13:50):
just trying to work out hissystems too.
But anyway, we gave him someantibiotics and we'll do a
retest to see how he's doing andit's getting better.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Yeah, so let's get to the study.
As people know, it's prettycommon in many places around the
world for people to share theirbeds with pets and also human
partners, though I know there'sa lot of couples that don't
sleep in the same bed becausethere's been shown because in
studies it's been shown thatsleeping with a human partner
(14:21):
has both positive and negativeeffects on sleep quality, like
snoring or tossing.
I am a bed tosser, like I tossaround at night and occasionally
I snore and you elbow me, andoccasionally you snore and I
elbow you.
But there's not a lot knownabout bed sharing with pets.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
No, and like when you are sharing a bed with a pet.
I don't know if Jason's doingthis on purpose, but now his new
move is to lay diagonally onthe bed, and Jason is over six
feet, six feet three, and solaying diagonally cuts like a
little triangle of the bed forme and I'm just like dude.
Oh, my goodness, we're alreadynot sleeping and then you're
(15:01):
just cutting off more bed than Ihave.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
But if I lay normally , my feet hang off the edge of
the bed.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
This is what people who?
Speaker 1 (15:10):
yeah, this is what people who are not tall don't
understand is that the world ismuch smaller when you are quite
tall.
Now, I'm not a giant, but I amdefinitely taller than normal.
So if I don't sleep diagonal, Ieither have to crunch up into a
ball or I sleep with my feethanging off the edge of the bed.
So sleeping diagonally allowsme to stretch out.
(15:33):
Sorry, chris, if that'scrowding you.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
But then it's because if you have the dog and Beaker
wherever she goes, she mightpush you into me, or I don't
know.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Yeah, so just for context, beaker, our golden, she
sleeps in our bed every night.
Every night she sleeps in ourbed and I'd say, 75% of the time
Ginger sleeps in our bed,Though she moves around quite a
bit at night.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
But she does Very active.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Yeah, she does sleep in our bed, at least for part of
the night.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
And then she goes with her nails to on the
scratching post on the bed andthen that makes beaker crazy
lazy, yeah, and then we're allup.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
So the study looked at 962 adult women living in the
united states.
Data was collected by an onlinesurvey and the main measure of
sleep quality with pets was thePittsburgh Sleep Quality Index,
or the PSQI.
Also, they looked at sleephabits and subjective
perceptions of sleep.
What are the stats?
Speaker 2 (16:36):
The bed sharing statistics say that 55% of
participants shared their bedwith at least one dog and 31%
shared their bed with at leastone dog, and 31 percent shared
their bed with at least one cat,and 57 percent shared their bed
with a human partner and, allin all, 93 percent of the
participants lived with at leastone dog or cat looks like a lot
(17:01):
of people have a pet.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
they may not sleep in the bed, but a lot of people do
so it.
They may not sleep in the bed,but a lot of people do, so it's
almost 100% having a cat or adog in your house.
So here are some of thefindings that are quite
interesting.
There was no strongrelationship between pet
ownership, bed sharing and sleepquality, according to the study
and the PSQI scores.
However, a high percentage ofparticipants overall experienced
(17:26):
poor sleep quality, raisingquestions about possible pet
related.
However, a high percentage ofparticipants overall experienced
poor sleep quality, whichraised questions about possible
pet related contributions tosleep deficits.
So maybe just having a pet inyour house decreases your
(17:49):
ability to sleep nice throughthe night.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
We tried to Ferberize Bunsen, so that was part of our
strategy.
We'll just let him bark andit'll be painful for a couple of
nights and then he'll calm down, okay, for a couple of nights,
and then he'll calm down, okay.
And we had a crying duncan whenhe was a baby and we tried the
ferber method and it worked forus and it didn't work for bunsen
(18:14):
, but that would make sensebecause he had a uti yeah,
that's why he, that's why he wasso sad those couple nights.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
We just thought he was just like wanting.
He was wanting everybody to bewake up and have early breakfast
.
So some sleep habits from thestudies and I'm not surprised
about this.
If you own a dog, you weregoing to go to bed earlier and
you're going to wake up earlierthan those who had cats but no
dogs, because our dogs, beforethis nonsense, were up at six,
(18:46):
are up at six o'clock on thenose.
They do not sleep in.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
One of the three of them is up because morning time
is a food time dogs in the bedseem to be the perception is
less disruptive to sleep thanhuman partners, and I know it's
pretty funny.
I'm thinking that's truebecause Beaker settles in and
even if she shifts it's notreally bad.
(19:13):
But if your husband cuts youoff diagonally, that is a
definite deficit impact.
But having dogs in the bedprovided stronger feelings of
comfort and security, whereascats in the bed are equally
disruptive as human partners.
The perception of that andassociated with weaker feelings
(19:36):
of comfort and security thanboth dogs and humans.
They're probably like if we'rethinking, ginger, she's not
going to save us in the middleof the night from the boogeyman
coming in, but I know that youwould and I know that Bunsen
would too.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Yeah, beaker would do a good job as well, and
Bernoulli would be in his crate.
Bernoulli would not be helpfulto anybody because he's also a
baby.
Yeah, we don't give Beakerenough credit.
Who knows what she would do.
I think she would rise to theoccasion.
But I've said this before I get.
I've had naps before with dogssleeping on the bed.
(20:14):
Now Beaker sleeps on the bed,and occasionally Bernoulli is
allowed on the bed, and whenBunsen was younger he would hop
up on the bed too.
In the past I've had Bunsen andBeaker sleeping next to me, and
boy do I get a good sleep.
I'll tell you that that is likethe most restful, warm cocoon
sleep you'd ever get with aBernice Mountain Dog and a
(20:36):
Golden Retriever.
And Bernoulli is a cuddly guytoo, like he loves to cuddle in
the bed.
But we have him crated becausehe'll sneak away in the night
and eat the wall.
So that's a bit of a problem.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
It is a bit of a problem that definitely affects
my ability to fall asleep.
If I'm thinking, is Bernoullichewing the banister?
Because he did that today.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Now, obviously, the location of your pets may play a
role in your impact.
Obviously, the location of yourpets probably play a big role
in their impact on your sleep.
He had some separation anxietywhen he was little, so we tried
to create him outside our roomand he lost his mind night after
night.
So our, the dog trainers, youknow what?
(21:19):
Just why don't you just tryhaving him in your room in a
crate?
And it worked perfect.
He was totally fine and we'relike okay, but so he's in the
crate in our room.
Obviously, you could put yourdog to sleep way far away so you
wouldn't hear them barking ormoving around.
You can not let your cat comeinto your room.
There's ways you could dothings and we just didn't do
(21:42):
that and maybe now there's someconsequences.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
So Jason and I are tongue in cheek talking about
our anecdotal evidence, which weall know isn't necessarily
evidence.
So more research is definitelyneeded to validate pet owners'
perceptions against objectivesleep tracking data, and so they
(22:04):
should also look at exploringhow individual pet behaviors,
for example movement or noises,may influence a sleep cycle and
then determine causation versuscorrelation in pet presence and
reported sleep deprivation.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Yeah, it makes sense.
Just because you think it'syour pet, you could just be
getting up for any other numberof reasons, though Ginger does
move around in the night andthat definitely wakes me up.
Also, she sleeps by my feet andif I move too much she attacks,
(22:42):
she bites my toes, and thenI'll tell you that wakes you up
right quick, because that's theweirdest feeling in the world is
you're sleeping and all of asudden there's like a little
nging, nging, nging like on yourtoes and you're like this fuzzy
thing is biting you.
I've probably been woken up by10 times from ginger biting my
toes.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
But if we keep her outside, then she's outside with
Bunsen.
If we put Bunsen outside, thenhe starts barking to get in.
So we haven't hit our rhythm.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Yeah, that's Pet Science for this week.
Hello everybody, here's someways you can keep the science
podcast free.
Number one in our show notessign up to be a member of our
Paw Pack Plus community.
It's an amazing community offolks who love pets and folks
who love science.
We have tons of bonus Bunsenand Beaker content there and we
(23:37):
have live streams every Sundaywith our community.
It's tons of fun.
Also, think about checking outour merch store.
We've got the Bunsen stuffy,the Beaker stuffy and now the
ginger stuffy.
That's right, ginger, thescience cat, has a little
replica.
It's adorable.
It's so soft, with the giantfluffy tail, safety glasses and
a lab coat.
(23:57):
And number three if you'relistening to the podcast on any
place that rates podcasts, giveus a great rating and tell your
family and friends to listen too.
Okay, on with the show.
Back to the interviews.
It's time for Ask an Expert onthe Science Podcast, and I have
doctor of public healthcandidate Sabina Fohra-Miller
(24:19):
here with us today, also knownas Unambiguous Science on
Instagram.
How are you doing today, sabina?
Speaker 3 (24:25):
I am doing excellent.
How are you?
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Little tongue-tied but I'm good.
I hope you're well.
Where are you calling into theshow from?
Where are you in the world?
Speaker 3 (24:35):
So I am currently calling in from California, but
I am actually a Toronto resident.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Okay, all right, you're way far east of where we
are in Alberta, if you're aresident of Toronto.
Yeah, sure A little warmerweather than us probably
currently today.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
It's actually rainy here today.
We don't get a lot of rain, butI think California needs rain,
so it's good.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Yeah, have you been in California long?
Speaker 3 (25:01):
We've been here now for the last two years, but we
are moving back to Toronto thissummer, which I'm very excited
about.
There's nothing like home andToronto is.
I'm a Toronto girl, true, andso I'm really looking forward to
going back.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
You know what Of my family, I am the only one who
hasn't been to Toronto.
My, you know what Of my family,I am the only one who hasn't
been to Toronto.
My wife has been a couple times, my sons have been and I have
not.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
What's the center of the universe right?
Speaker 1 (25:25):
We here tell that here in Alberta.
Yes, that's a Canadian joke forthe Canadians.
So, sabina, what's yourtraining in science?
Could you break that down forus?
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Oh, yeah, for sure.
So I'm probably going to givemy age by saying this, but I
have a master's in clinicalpharmacology and toxicology from
a really long time ago From theUniversity of Toronto.
I actually worked closely witha teratology neonatology program
called Mother Risk out of theHospital for Sick Children,
(25:55):
pretty ubiquitously known acrossCanada.
I did that a really long timeago.
I ended up leaving.
I finished with a master'sdegree, I was in the PhD program
, switched out with my master's,and then I actually worked in
biotech as a scientific advisorfor a very long time and my area
of expertise there was reallyin oncology, specifically
(26:16):
immuno-oncology.
But I actually ended up leavingVAT in 2016, just before my son
was born, and the reason forthat was because I wanted to
start my family foundation, andthe focus of our foundation is
similar it's health of theplanet, health of the people and
somehow, through COVID, I gotroped right back in into science
(26:38):
and SciComm and so I'mcurrently almost done my doctor
of public health at the DallaLana School of Public Health
hopefully should be done by theend of this year, if I get all
my stats done, which don't dothemselves, by the way.
I don't know if anyone knowsthis.
But yeah, that's the long storyshort.
I've had a bit of a meanderingjourney, but I think through and
(26:58):
through I am super passionateabout science.
It is being something that I'vealways been drawn to and I
don't think it's a part of methat will ever go.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Aw, when you were little, were you a science kid?
Were you mixing potions andcatching bugs and exploring the
world, and exploring the world.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
Can I tell you my parents still laugh about this
but I used to be an avid readerand I didn't grow up in North
America I'm actually a firstgeneration immigrant and so I
didn't have access to a lot ofbooks, especially books in
English.
So when I needed something toread, I would actually take out
the product inserts frommedicines, from drugs and sit
(27:37):
there and just read productinserts day in and day out.
And of course, I went in tostudy pharmacology.
It all just makes perfect sense.
But I was 10 years old and Iwould ask my mom all these
questions about what doeswhatever it is the word that I
was reading on those productinserts say.
But I've always really enjoyedscience and trying to understand
(27:59):
how the body works.
And it's funny, my husband's anengineer and he's a tech geek
and my son is unfortunatelygoing in his path, but I keep
reminding him I know,unfortunately, but I keep
reminding him that, honestly,the best computer, the best AI,
the best robots, the bestanything you could ever think of
, is the human body.
There is simply nothing moreintelligent, more capable than
(28:24):
the human body and I think that,for me, has always fascinated
me.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Yeah, that's very cool.
Can I ask where you're fromoriginally?
You said you're firstgeneration Canada.
Is that?
Is it okay for me to ask that?
I'm just curious.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
Yeah, absolutely.
I am actually a South Asian, soI'm from India, I'm from Delhi,
the capital, and my husband'sactually Caucasian, and so our
kiddo is.
He's a cute little mixed kidthat likes to, he loves talking
about Diwali and at the sametime he loves listening to my
(28:56):
husband talk about his Europeanroots.
So it's a really nice mishmashof like half South Asian, I
think, a quarter Scottish, aquarter German, half English.
Yeah, it's really cute.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Oh, thank you for sharing that's.
That's great.
I sound very proud of yourfamily, which is amazing.
So maybe switching gears intoyour the SciComm you have.
Like you said, you're prettypassionate about science
communication and that'sactually how we found you on
Instagram, like the Bunsen,beaker and Brulie account.
We follow lots of science folksand scientists and you're out
(29:29):
there busting myths andcorrecting misinformation.
Perspective as somebody in thatrealm, especially as you're
moving towards public health,being a doctor of public health,
is there some big bits ofmisinformation or myths that
you'd like to tell us about thatwe need to watch out for.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Yeah, and so I've been actually trying to bust
some of these myths, especiallyon vaccines, for a very long
time.
It actually really started whenI was pregnant with my son, and
I think that was my first foyerinto some of these Facebook mom
groups and I think the firsttime when I actually came across
people who were hesitant onvaccines like I'm a first
(30:07):
generation immigrant, I didn'treally have great access to
vaccines growing up and like Iremember standing out under the
sun for hours waiting because itwas vaccine day day at school
and just the importance of it.
So it was really the first timewhen I came across people who
were hesitant about vaccines.
In my entire life I had notreally come across that and so I
(30:28):
started answering questions onvaccines and trying to
understand where these fearswere coming from, and it was
really just really interestingto see what people were
concerned about and what theywere anxious about.
And then I had my son and itwas interesting because at that
point I finally understood andrealized where some of these
anxieties are coming from.
As a parent, you're alwaystrying to do the best you can
(30:49):
for your child especially, andsometimes you hear about a lot
of this fear mongering,misinformation that is just so
pervasive these days and itreally makes you wonder if
you're doing the right thing oryou're not.
So the one thing I come acrossvery often when I'm speaking to
especially parents is what about?
(31:12):
Should I be worried aboutvaccine side effects?
How worried should I be aboutthem?
Are they very common?
And that's something that I'veheard repeatedly over the last
decade with respect to vaccines,and I think it's just really
interesting for folks inhealthcare and in public health
to take a step back andunderstand why people are
worried and actually have theseconversations about these
(31:34):
concerns that people have.
First of all, everything inlife carries risk.
You getting into your car,driving to work has a risk.
It's not risk-free.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
Crazy risky, it's do all day.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
Exactly that, and I think people do it because
they're so desensitized to it.
It's something they do on aroutinely, daily basis and they
don't think about that.
But everything carries risks,and the point is that, going to
work, earning an income thebenefits from that obviously
outweigh that risks that youtake when you're driving a car.
You also have things whereyou're trying to reduce risks,
(32:08):
like you have seatbelts, youhave speed limits, you have all
of that in place, you havetraffic lights, right.
These are all ways that weactually decrease risk, but
nothing carries zero risk.
And so, when it comes down tovaccines, what ends up happening
is that the risks in somepeople's minds are way overblown
and the benefits areunderplayed.
And in public health, this isbecause of the prevention
(32:30):
paradox, and the reason isbecause vaccines have
essentially either fullyeliminated or drastically
reduced the incidence of severaldiseases, infectious diseases
that we just don't see.
And because we don't see, wedon't really realize the impact
they used to have before thevaccines were in place.
And so what's really importantto understand is that with
(32:54):
vaccines, yes, there are risks,but the risks are generally
minor, minor side effects thatcan happen.
Say, for instance, you mighthave a slight fever, you might
have a sore arm and very rarelyyou could potentially have a
more severe side effect.
But overall, overwhelmingly,the benefits of the vaccines
(33:14):
outweigh these risks that doexist and that's the point
that's really critical andreally important to know.
And we's the point that'sreally critical and really
important to know and we'reseeing that play out right now
with the measles outbreaks aswell in the.
US.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Canada.
Can I jump in Just out ofanxiety?
I haven't really been keepingup with the measles thing.
Sabina, is it going to start tobe bad?
Because that's what I'm hearingthe more I look into it like
it's starting to spread in areas.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
We're already seeing cases at an unprecedented rate,
right, if you look at the numberof cases we already have, I
mean, if you actually look atthe case for case in Ontario
compared to Texas.
We don't hear about this verymuch in Canada, but the cases
Ontario far exceed those inTexas based on population size.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Yeah yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:57):
So it's actually a huge issue right now and we
already have more cases thisyear in all of Canada than we
had for all of last year.
So unfortunately, we're not,the trend is not going in the
right direction and we're seeingthat happen not just in the US
and not just in Canada, but also, of course, globally.
(34:18):
So, yeah, I am concerned aboutthis because we do have
something that is exceptionallyeffective in preventing the
disease preventing deaths.
We've seen now already twodeaths that have occurred in
young kids one in Texas, one inOntario in the last four to six
months, and it's reallyunfortunate and it's really
heartbreaking, especially as aparent, because this was very
(34:42):
much preventable.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
And you can please correct me if I'm wrong, because
I'm a chemistry guy, not aninfectious disease person.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
I would never have guessed with that name of it,
bunsen-durner, really Neverwould have guessed.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Where's my?
Where's my?
Oh, I have a soundboard whenguests.
There we go, there we go.
Good, Measles is crazy,infectious.
Right, it's one of the mostinfectious things.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
Extremely infectious.
It lingers in the air for solong.
It lingers in the air for likeclose to two hours if someone
who was infectious was in theroom with you, and it's just,
and if you're not, you don'thave that wall of immunity with
respect to herd immunity andvaccines.
It can infect so many people,it's just.
(35:31):
It is actually the mostcontagious and most infectious
pathogen out there and and it'ssomething that can kill kids.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Right, it's not harmless.
You don't get like a littlerash Maybe you do and some most
people get better but it legitcan kill kids if they get it
Absolutely can kill kids.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
We've already seen that happen right With the cases
that we see both here inOntario as well as we saw in
Texas.
But not just the deaths.
I think also it's important toremember it can cause so many
other very severe issues as well.
Pneumonia is another thing, butthe other thing that I am
terrified about with respect tomeasles is the brain swelling
(36:11):
that it can cause and the brainswelling so one out of every
thousand children can get thisreally severe brain swelling,
which can lead to blindness,deafness and even worse outcomes
.
And then it can also cause thisthing called immune amnesia,
where your body essentiallyforgets how to fight off other
pathogens, other infections, andso it makes you a lot more
(36:33):
susceptible to tons of otherinfections and it's just overall
an exceptionally dangerousdisease.
And of course, let's not forgetthat we also do see deaths due
to measles that can occur.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Good to know and that's the measles vaccine for
most kids in North America Isthat in the?
That's in the MMR thing?
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Exactly, yeah.
So the MMR vaccine containsvaccines for measles, mumps and
rubella.
It's usually given as atwo-dose, so two doses means
you're fully vaccinated and twodoses gives you 97% protection
against measles, and it'sbasically, for the most part,
for most people.
Again, nothing is ever 100%,but for most people it actually
(37:14):
provides lifelong immunity aswell.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Nice.
Ironically enough, Sabina, I'ma classroom teacher.
That's my day job.
I teach high school chemistry.
The grade nines at our schoolwere being immunized today.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
Oh nice.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
It was immunization day.
Today they're calling the kidsdown by last name.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
So I guess it was for HPV slightly different topic,
but likely for the HPVvaccination which, by the way,
yesterday was HPV awareness day.
And guess what?
The best part, like the onething I love to talk about, is
you know how there are folks theones who are anti-science, et
cetera who keep talking abouthow big pharma and everyone, the
FDA, et cetera they're keepingaway the cure for prevention of
(37:55):
cancer.
Guess what, guys?
There is actually a vaccinethat can prevent cancer.
It's the HPV vaccine.
Go get it.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
It's wild, isn't it?
The stats are starting to comein.
And then I want to say Scotland, it has 100% eliminated
cervical cancer.
It's gone.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
Exactly that.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
That's wild to me.
Speaker 3 (38:17):
It is so wild.
And so here you have,essentially, a vaccine that
works so incredibly well toprevent cancer and so effective,
and just it's just absolutelyincredible.
And so we have things thatprevent cancer, prevent
infections, and we're at a point, in a moment in time, where
people are just denying theutility of vaccines in general,
(38:37):
which is just so unfortunate.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
I apologize, I think I misspoke.
I think it's death due tocervical cancer is now is at
zero.
I apologize, I don't think thecervical cancer is zero.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
No, so the study from Scotland?
Actually, the HBV vaccine was100% effective in preventing
invasive cervical cancer in thatstudy.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Oh okay, yeah, so there was zero cases.
I felt I was overselling itthere.
I'm so sorry.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
No, you're not, you're underselling it.
So, really, in that study, theyfound zero cases of invasive
cervical cancer in all of thewomen who were immunized at the
right time, so at age 12 or 13years of age, and yeah, and so
that's how exceptionallyeffective it is.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
That is, bananas, bananas.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
B-A-N-A-N-A.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Yeah from the office.
Very cool.
Okay, I appreciate picking yourbrain about some of the
misinformation that's out there.
It's a tough.
Maybe just a quick questionaside.
It's tough to know what youshould do when somebody is
vaccine hesitant Like I'm aclassroom teacher.
(39:45):
I have a really goodrelationship with the.
I taught grade nine honorscience and it was time for
vaccines and the one kids ohyeah, we're, I'm not going to
get that.
My family, we don't do that inmy family and I don't know.
It's not really my place tojump in there and start to say
something.
I feel or maybe it is like it'sthis weird.
(40:05):
What should you do whensomebody's decision is that way?
Speaker 3 (40:10):
I think the most important part, or the most
important role that we can playin situations like that is
actually to try and have peoplethink through their own
rationale and actually ask themwhat exactly it is that they're
worried about, and I think thisis also.
I've come across a lot ofpeople who are vaccine hesitant,
and so some of the things I doask them is that what exactly is
(40:32):
it that you're most concernedabout?
And the reason why I asked thisquestion is because not
everyone has the exact sameconcerns, so you don't want to
be throwing out jargon and stuffdown their throat when that's
actually what you're trying totell them is not what they're
most concerned about.
So I'll give you an example.
In the early days of theCOVID-19 vaccine, I was doing a
lot of work with the South Asiancommunity and the uptake wasn't
(40:54):
that great.
And we started having theseconversations with our community
and the thing that they mostwanted to what was keeping them
from getting the vaccine wasactually they didn't know
whether there were any sort ofanimal products in these
vaccines.
It was such a simple thing tohave addressed, but no one
thought to ask.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
They were worried.
It's got like animal protein orsomething.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
Exactly that, and that was just such a simple,
easy thing to have answered andaddressed, and we started having
these consultations with thecommunity, answer these
questions that they had withrespect to the ingredients of
the vaccine, whether they cancontain animal products or blood
products, and that alleviatedso many fears right.
And so I think that's why it'sreally important to first stop
(41:38):
and ask what are you mostconcerned about?
And sometimes I would even say,hey, can you pull up some
things that you've read andlet's actually try and see how
reputable these sources are.
And then sometimes I counterand bring publications of my own
and say, okay, let's compareand contrast these two studies
or these two papers.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Your YouTube video versus my paper.
Speaker 3 (41:59):
Yeah, or that it gets a little tricky.
I've actually seen the gamut ofall of this.
My father, south Asian, getsall of his information from
WhatsApp from like randomaunties in India, and it's
actually really good because heloves to forward these things to
me saying did you know?
And I'm crazy out there, butit's really good because it
(42:20):
actually keeps me up to date onwhat I need to think of
encounter, et cetera.
So it's actually really goodfor me to keep up with all of
the stuff that he's getting.
But, yeah, his primary sourceof news is basically WhatsApp
and random stuff that brownaunties in India send him.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
I don't know.
You got to get your news fromsomewhere and it's good that
he's got you in your corner tokind of bust some of the
randomness that comes across hisWhatsApp feed.
Yep, hey Sabina, can I pickyour brain about bird flu, yes,
or avian flu?
In Canada we still have eggs,but I think it's starting to
(42:59):
affect the American supply ofeggs and is there a possibility
of it starting to affect people,or has it already done that?
Speaker 3 (43:09):
Unfortunately, it has already done that, so let's
just maybe take a step back.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
You just jumped in hot.
Speaker 3 (43:15):
No, it's great.
It's great.
I think you should jump back,but I just I wanted to give some
background information becauseI think that sometimes what
happens, I think right now, isthat we're hearing so much about
birth flu and people think it'snew.
Avian flu is actually not new.
It's been around for decadesand there's actually several
different.
The highly pathogenic versionof avian influenza, which is the
one that is really dangerousfor poultry, is caused by two
(43:38):
different types of influenza Aviruses it's the H5 and the H7
viruses and they've been aroundfor decades, and so currently
the infectious strain that iscausing havoc in North America
is the H5N1.
And again, it's not new.
It's been around for decades,but since 2024, so in the last
(44:00):
year and a bit what started withonly one human dairy cattle in
one state is now essentially athousand herds in 16 states, and
(44:24):
we're hearing about new humancases occurring almost on a
monthly basis right Both in theUS and Canada.
So it's not new, it's beenaround.
The issue is that we're seeingspillover happen now, which
means that it started with birds, you know, wild birds.
We've seen it, and then we'veseen it in poultry, but now it's
(44:46):
spilling over to a new hostpopulation.
So we saw it kind of spill overto the cows and then we saw
multiple different genotypesactually.
So we've had multiple spilloverevents happening in cows, which
means that there is that riskof even more spillover events.
And the more spillover eventsyou have, the more exposure
(45:08):
humans especially dairy farmworkers, poultry workers have
with it, the higher the risk itends up being for human exposure
.
So that's the concern.
Speaker 1 (45:18):
Okay, all right, thank you.
You did what like probablythree hours of internet
searching would have done for me, so I appreciate you succinctly
breaking that down.
That was amazing.
I so appreciate that.
Now I don't know if it's tooearly to worry about.
Is this something that shouldbe like, should we think about,
should this be something on ourradar, or is it a wait and see
(45:41):
situation?
Speaker 3 (45:42):
Okay.
So here's the thing At thispoint the concern and the risk
for human to human transmission.
It continues to be low.
It's because that there is whatwe call tropism, so avian
influenza tends to bind withreceptors that are not
necessarily as commonly found inhumans and they're a lot more
(46:03):
commonly found in, obviously,poultry.
We're seeing it in cattle, butwe're seeing also cats and dogs
tend to have more of thesereceptors, and so because these
animals have a higherconcentration of these receptors
in their respiratory tractscompared to humans, they are
more susceptible.
What we haven't really seen sofar is human to human
(46:24):
transmission.
Ie if you know, a dairy farmworker has gotten infected
because of exposure to the dairycattle.
There hasn't been onwardtransmission, ie that person has
not then transmitted it to evenhousehold contacts, and that's
a good thing, which means we'renot necessarily seeing, we don't
have to be concerned right nowfor human to human transmission.
(46:46):
That continues to be low.
However, the issue here is thatthe more you see things like
this happen, the more there ischances of mutations occurring,
and you can have mutations thatthen render this virus to be
more susceptible for human tohuman transmission.
So that's the biggest concernright now, but I think, also
(47:08):
importantly, it means that wehave to actually ramp up all of
our preparedness and mitigationefforts, right, and that's the
thing about public health Ifit's working well and if it's
working beautifully, it works inthe background and you don't
even realize it.
And so good public health wouldessentially be doing everything
they can right now in thebackground so that we never get
(47:29):
to a phase where there is apandemic or there is human to
human transmission, etc.
And so that's what we're doingright now in Canada.
Actually, we have somefantastic plans in place.
For instance, we are right nowworking on vaccines, right.
We just, in fact, signed a dealwhere we were going to have
half a million doses off thevaccine to be manufactured in
(47:52):
Canada especially, which I thinkis really important given all
of these tariffs important,given all of these tariffs, but
not just that which is ourNational Association for
Immunization in Canada.
They actually have a fantasticplan framework for distribution
and prioritization of thesevaccines in an obviously in a
non-pandemic context.
But these are all things thatneed to be done, and they are
(48:13):
being done, which I think shouldbe a huge relief for people to
know that we are working on thisin the background.
There's so much happening inthe background, but of course,
there are risks that do exist,and I'm happy to go over some of
the key things that I thinkpeople should be aware of.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
Sure, if you've got the time, you're the first
person we've talked to thisabout.
So yeah, if you've got the time, sabina, go for it.
Speaker 3 (48:39):
For sure.
I think that right now, thereis tons of fear mongering that
is also occurring.
So I really want to balance outwhat people should be worried
about and what they shouldn't beworried about.
So don't be worried about humanto human transmission right now
, but what you should know andwhat you should do to reduce
your risk, first of all, is onlydrink pasteurized milk.
I think that is key.
Please, no raw milk, formultiple reasons.
(49:01):
Let's make it timely and sayparticularly not for avian
influenza.
I also think it's reallyimportant for people to
thoroughly cook their meatbefore they consume it and
similarly, don't give your petsbecause this is a podcast
P-A-W-D.
We should also keep in mindthat.
Don't give your pets any ofthis raw milk, and especially
not the raw food.
(49:21):
We've seen actually severalcases of cats oh interesting,
yeah, cats and dogs dyingbecause of consumption of meat
that was infected with avianinfluenza.
So really important to not justkeep yourself protected but
keep your pets protected.
And same if you have pets, makesure that you keep cats, for
(49:41):
instance, indoors, not outdoors.
Same with dogs.
Make sure they're not actuallygoing up to any sort of sick or
dead bird, especially now thatwe're going back into bird
migratory season.
We're going to see birds comingup up.
We're going to see tons of thathappen, so we might come across
birds that are sick or dead wildbirds, and so I think it's
(50:05):
really important for not justyou to keep distance but your
children to keep distance fromsick and dead birds, and
especially your pets to keepdistance, that's.
I can tell you.
I have two dogs.
One of them does not care aboutanything.
The other other one wants toeat everything.
So, especially for my youngerpup, who is super curious
(50:26):
through her mouth, it's going tobe really important for me to
make sure that I keep a closeeye on her when we are outdoors.
And then I think also it'sreally important if you have
backyard farms I know it'ssomething that is super trendy
right now, but again, superimportant for people who do have
backyard farms, particularly ifyou have chickens and you have
eggs, et cetera, to keep themaway from wild birds and use
(50:48):
proper PPE if you are handlingany of your backyard farms.
So I think those are the keythings people really need to
remember with avian influenzaand also know that the Public
Health Agency of Canada andothers are working diligently in
the background.
Speaker 1 (51:04):
Awesome.
Thank you.
I feel relieved which withwhat's going on right now.
It's nice to feel that.
Speaker 3 (51:11):
I agree, and there's a reason why I didn't go into
all of the US politics with itbecause it's a mess and I really
don't want to bring people downright now.
But I think for Canadians it'simportant to know that we have
some incredible institutionshere, that public health
institutions that are reallykeeping up with it, and
hopefully our neighbors in theUS understand and realize the
importance of public health andalso bring back all of their
(51:36):
departments who do a lot of thisimportant work.
Speaker 1 (51:39):
Go Canada, at least for right now yes.
Thanks, sabina.
I just have a real quickquestion before we get to our
last one.
We ask all our guests youmentioned your foundation, the
Vora Miller Foundation.
Could you just talk to us aboutthat a little bit Sure.
Speaker 3 (51:57):
So our foundation was created in 2016.
Actually, so the processstarted in 2016, but it actually
sorry I'm trying to.
Now I'm going to have to goback.
I feel like my memorypost-COVID and pre-COVID
timelines are a little messed up, but let me go back to it.
So 2016, I actually left my jobto focus on the foundation.
(52:20):
By the time the foundation wasup and running, it was actually
the month we went into alockdown in 2020.
I remember we couldn't actuallyopen any of our bank accounts
because we were in lockdown,which was very interesting, but
my husband and I basicallycreated this foundation.
We got really lucky in life.
My husband was the chiefproduct officer at Shopify and
(52:40):
we got super lucky in life, andI think both of us have always
found this incredible need tomake sure that we are
contributing to our community.
We both strongly believe thatwe don't thrive unless everyone
thrives, and so that was reallythe reason why we created our
foundation, and the two thingsthat we thought at that time,
when we first started working onour foundation, was health of
(53:03):
the planet.
As we know, environmentalclimate change is massive and is
not stopping anytime soon.
In fact, it's progressing at analarming rate, and so we knew
we needed to focus on that, andI also wanted to make sure that
we were taking a full, wholesomeapproach to health, with public
(53:23):
health, environmental health,health equity All of these are
interconnected.
You can't really deal with onewithout making sure you're
actually looking at the othersas well, and so we took this
holistic view on making sure wewere looking at both health of
the planet and health of thepeople, with a specific health
equity lens to it, just becauseI obviously am a person of color
(53:46):
and it's something that's veryimportant to me.
So we've continued doing that.
I do a lot of work on publichealth through our foundation
too.
I use different hats, so tospeak, in all of the different
work I do, but it's alwaystowards a similar goal making
sure that we're leaving theworld a better place for our
children and a more just andequitable world for our children
(54:08):
.
So those are the two key thingsthat we focus on.
Speaker 1 (54:11):
Nice.
Just for people who areinterested in the show notes,
I'll have a link to yourfoundation.
I was poking around it beforewe chatted.
There's a little video of youtalking on TiVo, TVO about
COVID-19.
Speaker 3 (54:26):
Yeah, that sounds about right.
It's funny there are times whenI've actually joked around with
.
I just did a podcast on measlesthe other day and I was just
joking around about this andsaying I'd love to actually go
on a media or podcast and talkabout fun things, like happy
things, and not constantly aboutinfectious diseases and deaths.
And unfortunately that's theline of work I am in.
Speaker 1 (54:48):
But yeah, I can pivot us there.
Yeah, we ask all of our guestsif they would like to share a
pet story from their life ortalk about their pets, and I
think that's a rather joyfulpart of everybody's day.
In fact, it might be, the mostjoyful part of everybody's day,
absolutely.
Our audience would love to hearyour pet story.
Speaker 3 (55:10):
Oh, thank you for that opportunity.
I can talk about this for hours.
I have two dogs and I love mytwo babies, my two fur babies.
So you know my first dog.
He's 14 years old, so you knowhe's a senior.
His name's Pico and it's funnyhow his name came to be my
husband's an engineer.
I'm obviously in STEM as well,and so we're both STEM geeks.
(55:31):
And we saw him and he was arunt.
He was not expected to survive.
And so we saw him and he was sotiny.
And so we saw him and he was sotiny and I made this joke I'm
like he's not a puppy, he's amicro puppy.
And then my husband saidactually he's a nano puppy.
And then we actually said,almost in unison, he's a pico
puppy, 10 to the minus 12 andthe name just stuck.
(55:51):
We're like it's pico's his name.
Interestingly, I actuallyoriginally wanted to call him
Trebek, like Alex Trebek fromJeffree.
Speaker 1 (55:58):
Oh my heart, we love Alex so much.
Speaker 3 (56:01):
Me too, but in retrospect I'm really glad we
didn't name him that, because asit is, it'd be really hard to
yell at a dog and say, no Trebek, how does that work?
But even more so now that AlexTrebek passed away, and it was
actually one of the mostheartbreaking moments and I
could not yell that name out,and so I'm really happy we
(56:22):
didn't name Pico Trebek inretrospect, You'd also have to
change all of your dog commandsin the form of a question to him
.
Yes, exactly, exactly, I didn'teven think of that.
So for multiple reasons I am sohappy we didn't go with Trebek
and we actually went with Pico,which was actually a super geeky
name.
10 to the minus 12.
Thankfully, our son actuallynamed our other dog.
(56:43):
So our other dog is almost twoyears old.
Her name's Callie Rose and ourson named her Callie because we
got her when we were here inCalifornia, and Rose because the
Rose Gardens are one of hisfavorite places to go, and so he
named her Callie Rose, which Ithink is a really cute name, and
I'm so happy I didn't have toname another living being.
Speaker 1 (57:07):
What types of dogs are Pico and Callie Rose?
Speaker 3 (57:10):
Pico is a Morkie, a part Maltese, part New Yorkie.
Speaker 2 (57:14):
And.
Speaker 3 (57:14):
Callie is a Cavachon, so she's a part Cavalier and a
part Bichon.
Speaker 1 (57:19):
Oh, that's.
Speaker 3 (57:21):
They're really cute.
They're really sweet.
They hate each other.
Actually, no, hang on.
Pico hates Callie.
Callie's obsessed with Pico.
It's similar to the situationyou have with Bernoulli and
Ginger.
Speaker 1 (57:32):
Oh my God, one is at the other and the other one is,
just not today, please.
Speaker 3 (57:36):
Exactly, and the funny thing is that Callie is so
much bigger five times biggerin size than Pico.
But Pico terrifies her, which Ijust think is hilarious,
because he's also 14.
He's skinny now and really old,and he has arthritis and he
actually has a brain tumor too.
So he's a sick, olderly, fraillittle puppy and she's terrified
(58:01):
of him but obsessed with him atthe same time, and I just think
the dynamics between the twoare just absolutely hilarious
yeah, those pet dynamics aresomething else I agree.
Speaker 1 (58:11):
Yeah, ginger terrifies bunsen, who's our
older bernice, and bunsen is ourhero dog, our protector.
He fought a coyote and savedBeaker.
He's found a lost dog like this.
He's a legendary dog, whatBunsen has done in his life and
he is terrified of that cat thatis hilarious.
Speaker 3 (58:29):
I find that so funny.
And Pico is, he's five poundson a good day and and it's funny
because, ginger and heterrifies like.
We were at the vet two weeksago for his annual vaccines and
there was a German Shepherd inthe waiting room and the German
Shepherd was terrified of Pico.
I'm like what is happening?
Speaker 2 (58:49):
That German.
Speaker 3 (58:50):
Shepherd could have Pico for breakfast, and I don't
know, I don't know.
I just think it's hilarious.
Speaker 1 (58:57):
It's that some of the dogs, they just have that aura
about them.
The don't mess with me aura.
Speaker 3 (59:02):
Yes, yes, and Pico, pico is that, yeah, really cute
and funny.
Speaker 1 (59:09):
I so appreciate you sharing your pet story with us.
Even though we talked aboutsome pretty serious stuff, this
was a pretty joyful end to ourconversation.
Thank you so much for being aguest on our show today talking
about some misinformation aroundvaccines and, of course, the
avian flu.
We're really lucky to have yourexpertise and thank you so much
.
Speaker 3 (59:27):
Oh, thank you for having me.
I think you can hear Pico inthe background right now because
he's getting a little antsy.
Yeah, thank you for having me,and I really enjoyed chatting
with you, especially about theopportunity to talk about my dog
.
Speaker 1 (59:38):
so thank you we'll make sure there's a link to your
instagram social media and thenany other links you'd send us.
Send them our way and we'llmake sure those are in the show
notes when the episode comes outamazing, thank you okay, take
care.
Awesome.
That's it for this week's show.
Thanks for coming back weekafter week to listen to the
science podcast.
If you love our show and wantto support us and a perk of
(01:00:02):
being one of our top tiersupporters is you get a shout
out at the end of the showthat's the top dogs on the Paw
Pack Plus community, so take alook at our show notes to
support us there.
We'd love it, chris, let's hearthose names.
Speaker 2 (01:00:16):
Amelia Fettig, rhi Oda, carol Hainel, jennifer
Challen, linnea, chris let's andcuteness.
Hello science enthusiasts.
I'm Jason Zukoski.
And I'm Chris Zukoski, we'rethe pet parents of Bunsen,
beaker, bernoulli and Ginger.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
The science animals on social media.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
If you love science.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
And you love pets.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
You've come to the right spot, so put on your
safety glasses and hold on toyour tail.
This is the science podcast.
Hi everybody, welcome back tothe science podcast.
We hope you're happy andhealthy out there.
This is episode 11 of seasonseven.
Hey, that kind of rhymes.
Chris and I are going to betalking in this episode about
(00:46):
our lack of sleep.
Bunsen had a urinary tractinfection which was keeping him
up and keeping us up, butluckily it seems like the
antibiotics are really helpinghim.
So he's had a rough go lately,but like his.
The other some good news is hismobility keeps getting better,
week by week, week by a littlebit, um, so that's something
(01:09):
we're also noticing.
He still has some tippy tappymovement, uh, but he's moving
faster and with more confidenceand he wants to scamper and run
outside, but he's still on lightwalking.
We can't go off leash and andwe're going to be looking at
other things for rehab for himthat might help.
Some folks have suggestedhydrotherapy, and that's one
(01:30):
thing that Vet Clinic in towndoes.
So, yeah, we're looking forsome ways to get the big guy
back to 100%.
All right, well, what's on theshow this week in science news?
Is there alien life out there?
Maybe you've seen theclickbaity headlines, but chris
and I are going to put on ourskeptical hats and talk about
that planet that may or may nothave life on.
(01:51):
In pet science topical, as Imentioned, not a lot of sleep
happening here in the last uhweek, week and a half, two weeks
and we found a study about.
Do people with pets have lesssleep than people without pets?
We'll find out.
Our guest in Ask an Expert isdoctor of public health
candidate, sabina Vorau-Miller,and with all of the things
(02:15):
happening in the news withcommunicable diseases, a perfect
guess for uncertain times.
All right, let's get on withthe show, because there's no
time like science time.
This week in science news,chris and I are going to talk
about life potentially onanother planet.
(02:36):
I know I get really excitedabout space, but this story is
about as exciting as it possiblycan get Chris.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
I know space, but this story is about as exciting
as it possibly can get, chris.
I know now it is pretty recent,as of april 17th, and so lots
of people are talking about itand we have to be careful
because there's some clickbaitystuff out there that's right.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
That's the reason I picked this one is all over
social media, especially Twitteror X.
I've been seeing somesensational reporting on it and
though I want to keep everybodyreally excited, I think we need
to look at it with a skepticalhat.
So let's get going, and I guessthe lead or the clickbaity
(03:24):
title is Life May Be Found onAlien Planet K2-18b.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
It's not new.
It was discovered in 2015 bythe Kepler Space Telescope, but
the more recent findings come tous from the James Webb
Telescope.
K2-18b's, a catchy name, orbitsa red dwarf star, and it's
about 125 light years away fromus, from Earth.
(03:53):
And it's actually why it'sinteresting is because of its
location.
It's located in its star'shabitable zone, where liquid
water could potentially exist.
Now it's larger than Earth.
It's about 2.6 times Earth'sdiameter and 8.6 times its mass.
(04:16):
So they classify it as asub-Neptune or a mini-Neptune,
which is a planet type not foundin our solar backyard, in our
solar system.
And they're not sure what theexact composition of K2-18b is,
(04:36):
but models suggest that it couldbe a Heishen world, a
water-ocean planet under ahydrogen, a hydrogen rich
atmosphere.
So it has a name mashup like acelebrity status ginger newly,
or uh ches newly yeah, exactly,it's a mashup.
(04:58):
I don't even know.
I think that's how you wouldsay that hydrogen.
Hydrogen, hydrogen ocean.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yeah, I am filled with wonder about these
exoplanets.
The only planets we know arethe ones within our solar system
, and they're really cool.
But a large Earth, a superEarth, but potentially covered
of course there's debate on thispotentially covered with a
giant ocean that's bananas.
Now here's where the sciencecomes in.
(05:28):
Chris, you did a good jobexplaining what K2-18b is.
Sounds like it's a droid fromStar Wars 2D2.
Yeah, when exoplanets go infront of their host star like in
this case, it's a red dwarf theatmosphere is blasted by light.
So we are waiting patiently fora planet exoplanet to go in
(05:50):
front of its star.
And what's really crazy isthat's what JWST was built for
it has infrared sensors that areideal for looking at that light
from the star coming throughthe atmosphere of the exoplanet.
It's basically a detectivelooking for molecular
fingerprints in the atmospheres.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Yeah, and if you look at our eyes can't see through
our hand into our bones, butx-rays can.
And so with the James WebbSpace Telescope, with the
infrared sensors, it allows morecomplex measurements to be
taken.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Now, this did not happen quickly.
The team that was looking atthis planet used three of these
instruments on JWST and observedthis planet for over two years.
So the exciting thing is thegas that it found.
So the exciting thing is thegas that it found.
Now, the gas that it foundwasn't ones that you would think
of, oh, oxygen or nitrogen,which are the two main gases on
(06:50):
Earth.
They're sulfides, dimethylsulfide and dimethyl disulfide.
Now, why are these such a bigdeal, Chris?
Speaker 2 (07:10):
So on Earth, dimethyl sulfide is produced by
phytoplankton and it isn't knownto be created through
non-biological means.
So if they're thinking, hey,maybe it's this dimethyl sulfide
is being created by abiological means, but they're
not sure.
But what's really interestingis the molecules are appearing
in significant amounts.
Which, where is it coming from?
And that could potentiallysuggest possible biological
(07:31):
origin, but absolutely notconclusively.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
So we're going to put our skepticism hat on our
skeptical hat.
These detections are atsomething they classify a three
sigma level, which is a 0.3%chance.
The signal is random, but thegold standard is a five sigma
standard that is required forscientific confidence.
(07:55):
So, even though that's reallygood, it's not as high as they
were hoping.
Also, even though thistelescope is wicked powerful, if
you could hop on a beam oflight it would take you 125
years to get there.
So these signals are superfaint and, of course, when
there's really faint signals,any kind of like tiny plus minus
(08:17):
on your instruments, like pixelsensitivity, that could mimic
these real gases Hubble, ofcourse, famously mistook methane
for water on this exact sameplanet.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
That's not to say that they can't get to the five
sigma standard, but they wouldhave to observe the planet for
20 to 30 hours to get moreinformation and data.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
And then, lastly, dms , dimethyl sulfide, has been
created in labs and it's beenfound in comets, so it's not
exclusive to life, even thoughthe greatest amount of it is
created by phytoplankton here onEarth.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
So I don't know if there's going to be.
If we look at the big picture,the detection is not proof of
alien life but it is definitelya significant step in the search
.
But astronomers are stressingthe need for cautious
interpretation to definitelypreserve scientific credibility.
We don't want to say, oh, alienlife.
(09:22):
And then have to go back onthat because that's like the boy
who cried wolf.
So there may never actually bea single moment of woohoo, we
found aliens.
It might look more like agradual accumulation of evidence
over time.
But there's some threats tofunding, to NASA and other
(09:43):
programs which could delay orprevent future telescopes, for
example the habitable worldsobservatory that could help
confirm the biosignors.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Come, help confirm biosignage so I guess, in
conclusion, chris, this isextremely exciting.
It's a gas that could lead tothe conclusion that there's life
on this planet.
However, there's enoughskepticism to temper that with.
We need more data, and I thinkthat's the greatest thing about
(10:15):
space science is we can look upinto the stars and think about
life out there around thosestars in the sky and hopefully,
within our lifetime, we getthere.
Though I think if aliens comeknocking and they land and say
hello, probably we can point tothem and say we found aliens.
We won't need a gradualaccumulation of evidence then.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
I think I would be wishing that I had made a bunker
, because we don't have a bunker, but I wish.
I think I would be like I wishI had 10 year old tomato cans
and all the other stuff and gointo my bunker.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Hey, I've seen enough movies.
We can take out the aliens withwater, right?
Isn't that how you get rid ofthem?
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Yeah, just with normal water, just with normal
water.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
All right, that's science news for this week.
This week in pet science, we'regoing to talk about sleep
sleeping with your pets in yourbed.
This is topical because, chris,I'm pretty tired right now.
We've had a rough go this lastcouple of weeks.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
It's been a very long stretch that we have been
experiencing sleep deprivationand I think by saying a couple
of weeks it just makes it moremanageable.
But I don't think I've sleptsince we got Bernoulli in June
last year.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Like as good as you did before.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Jason, I love sleep, I love it, I need it.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Jason, I love sleep, I love it, I need it.
Yeah, the problem is thatBernoulli as a puppy was as an
early riser and he is doing sogood, like the last, I don't
know.
He crate trained tough at thestart and now he's great.
But the issue that where we had, especially this last couple
couple of weeks, potentially isthat Bunsen had a urinary tract
infection and he was barking attwo o'clock in the morning and
(12:08):
then we would have to take himout.
You caught that early andthat's gotten better, but still
like, when one dog startsbarking then they all start
spark, start barking, and thensometimes the cat is moving
around and fighting ghosts andthat sets them off and bernoulli
wants go play with his friend.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Why aren't we all awake?
Why aren't we all awake?
This is a great time to beawake.
It's 430 in the morning.
This is the best time, and I'mnot going to lie Jason, that's
time that I've got extra time todo marking and things and make
assignments it's I've made, Idon't know lemonade out of
(12:45):
lemons, out of the situation.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Yeah, was doing good like I could get up and do.
If I got up early I would havean extra hour for content, but
I'm running on empty now and Iknow you are.
So I saw this pop up and I waslike, wow, this is topical for
us to talk about.
On social media we do projectthis aura that we have
everything figured out with ourpets.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
But the last, especially the last two weeks,
with bunsen's getting up at two,I was like it progressively got
worse and then about a week agoit was really bad for two or
three nights in a row and I justsaid to myself self, I'm going
to call the vet and make anappointment because we've had
other health concerns with himthat we have shared through our
social media channels and so weare pretty transparent about
(13:28):
what's been going on, and I wasdoing a little bit of research
into potentially why a dog mightget a UTI and crystals and it
could be stress.
So Bunsen also could beexperiencing stress from the
whole body situation that he hadwith the tapeworm cyst removal
and then with his neck, and sowe can't blame him because he's
(13:50):
just trying to work out hissystems too.
But anyway, we gave him someantibiotics and we'll do a
retest to see how he's doing andit's getting better.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Yeah, so let's get to the study.
As people know, it's prettycommon in many places around the
world for people to share theirbeds with pets and also human
partners, though I know there'sa lot of couples that don't
sleep in the same bed becausethere's been shown because in
studies it's been shown thatsleeping with a human partner
(14:21):
has both positive and negativeeffects on sleep quality, like
snoring or tossing.
I am a bed tosser, like I tossaround at night and occasionally
I snore and you elbow me, andoccasionally you snore and I
elbow you.
But there's not a lot knownabout bed sharing with pets.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
No, and like when you are sharing a bed with a pet.
I don't know if Jason's doingthis on purpose, but now his new
move is to lay diagonally onthe bed, and Jason is over six
feet, six feet three, and solaying diagonally cuts like a
little triangle of the bed forme and I'm just like dude.
Oh, my goodness, we're alreadynot sleeping and then you're
(15:01):
just cutting off more bed than Ihave.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
But if I lay normally , my feet hang off the edge of
the bed.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
This is what people who?
Speaker 1 (15:10):
yeah, this is what people who are not tall don't
understand is that the world ismuch smaller when you are quite
tall.
Now, I'm not a giant, but I amdefinitely taller than normal.
So if I don't sleep diagonal, Ieither have to crunch up into a
ball or I sleep with my feethanging off the edge of the bed.
So sleeping diagonally allowsme to stretch out.
(15:33):
Sorry, chris, if that'scrowding you.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
But then it's because if you have the dog and Beaker
wherever she goes, she mightpush you into me, or I don't
know.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Yeah, so just for context, beaker, our golden, she
sleeps in our bed every night.
Every night she sleeps in ourbed and I'd say, 75% of the time
Ginger sleeps in our bed,Though she moves around quite a
bit at night.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
But she does Very active.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Yeah, she does sleep in our bed, at least for part of
the night.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
And then she goes with her nails to on the
scratching post on the bed andthen that makes beaker crazy
lazy, yeah, and then we're allup.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
So the study looked at 962 adult women living in the
united states.
Data was collected by an onlinesurvey and the main measure of
sleep quality with pets was thePittsburgh Sleep Quality Index,
or the PSQI.
Also, they looked at sleephabits and subjective
perceptions of sleep.
What are the stats?
Speaker 2 (16:36):
The bed sharing statistics say that 55% of
participants shared their bedwith at least one dog and 31%
shared their bed with at leastone dog, and 31 percent shared
their bed with at least one cat,and 57 percent shared their bed
with a human partner and, allin all, 93 percent of the
participants lived with at leastone dog or cat looks like a lot
(17:01):
of people have a pet.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
they may not sleep in the bed, but a lot of people do
so it.
They may not sleep in the bed,but a lot of people do, so it's
almost 100% having a cat or adog in your house.
So here are some of thefindings that are quite
interesting.
There was no strongrelationship between pet
ownership, bed sharing and sleepquality, according to the study
and the PSQI scores.
However, a high percentage ofparticipants overall experienced
(17:26):
poor sleep quality, raisingquestions about possible pet
related.
However, a high percentage ofparticipants overall experienced
poor sleep quality, whichraised questions about possible
pet related contributions tosleep deficits.
So maybe just having a pet inyour house decreases your
(17:49):
ability to sleep nice throughthe night.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
We tried to Ferberize Bunsen, so that was part of our
strategy.
We'll just let him bark andit'll be painful for a couple of
nights and then he'll calm down, okay, for a couple of nights,
and then he'll calm down, okay.
And we had a crying duncan whenhe was a baby and we tried the
ferber method and it worked forus and it didn't work for bunsen
(18:14):
, but that would make sensebecause he had a uti yeah,
that's why he, that's why he wasso sad those couple nights.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
We just thought he was just like wanting.
He was wanting everybody to bewake up and have early breakfast
.
So some sleep habits from thestudies and I'm not surprised
about this.
If you own a dog, you weregoing to go to bed earlier and
you're going to wake up earlierthan those who had cats but no
dogs, because our dogs, beforethis nonsense, were up at six,
(18:46):
are up at six o'clock on thenose.
They do not sleep in.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
One of the three of them is up because morning time
is a food time dogs in the bedseem to be the perception is
less disruptive to sleep thanhuman partners, and I know it's
pretty funny.
I'm thinking that's truebecause Beaker settles in and
even if she shifts it's notreally bad.
(19:13):
But if your husband cuts youoff diagonally, that is a
definite deficit impact.
But having dogs in the bedprovided stronger feelings of
comfort and security, whereascats in the bed are equally
disruptive as human partners.
The perception of that andassociated with weaker feelings
(19:36):
of comfort and security thanboth dogs and humans.
They're probably like if we'rethinking, ginger, she's not
going to save us in the middleof the night from the boogeyman
coming in, but I know that youwould and I know that Bunsen
would too.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Yeah, beaker would do a good job as well, and
Bernoulli would be in his crate.
Bernoulli would not be helpfulto anybody because he's also a
baby.
Yeah, we don't give Beakerenough credit.
Who knows what she would do.
I think she would rise to theoccasion.
But I've said this before I get.
I've had naps before with dogssleeping on the bed.
(20:14):
Now Beaker sleeps on the bed,and occasionally Bernoulli is
allowed on the bed, and whenBunsen was younger he would hop
up on the bed too.
In the past I've had Bunsen andBeaker sleeping next to me, and
boy do I get a good sleep.
I'll tell you that that is likethe most restful, warm cocoon
sleep you'd ever get with aBernice Mountain Dog and a
(20:36):
Golden Retriever.
And Bernoulli is a cuddly guytoo, like he loves to cuddle in
the bed.
But we have him crated becausehe'll sneak away in the night
and eat the wall.
So that's a bit of a problem.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
It is a bit of a problem that definitely affects
my ability to fall asleep.
If I'm thinking, is Bernoullichewing the banister?
Because he did that today.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Now, obviously, the location of your pets may play a
role in your impact.
Obviously, the location of yourpets probably play a big role
in their impact on your sleep.
He had some separation anxietywhen he was little, so we tried
to create him outside our roomand he lost his mind night after
night.
So our, the dog trainers, youknow what?
(21:19):
Just why don't you just tryhaving him in your room in a
crate?
And it worked perfect.
He was totally fine and we'relike okay, but so he's in the
crate in our room.
Obviously, you could put yourdog to sleep way far away so you
wouldn't hear them barking ormoving around.
You can not let your cat comeinto your room.
There's ways you could dothings and we just didn't do
(21:42):
that and maybe now there's someconsequences.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
So Jason and I are tongue in cheek talking about
our anecdotal evidence, which weall know isn't necessarily
evidence.
So more research is definitelyneeded to validate pet owners'
perceptions against objectivesleep tracking data, and so they
(22:04):
should also look at exploringhow individual pet behaviors,
for example movement or noises,may influence a sleep cycle and
then determine causation versuscorrelation in pet presence and
reported sleep deprivation.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Yeah, it makes sense.
Just because you think it'syour pet, you could just be
getting up for any other numberof reasons, though Ginger does
move around in the night andthat definitely wakes me up.
Also, she sleeps by my feet andif I move too much she attacks,
(22:42):
she bites my toes, and thenI'll tell you that wakes you up
right quick, because that's theweirdest feeling in the world is
you're sleeping and all of asudden there's like a little
nging, nging, nging like on yourtoes and you're like this fuzzy
thing is biting you.
I've probably been woken up by10 times from ginger biting my
toes.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
But if we keep her outside, then she's outside with
Bunsen.
If we put Bunsen outside, thenhe starts barking to get in.
So we haven't hit our rhythm.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Yeah, that's Pet Science for this week.
Hello everybody, here's someways you can keep the science
podcast free.
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Okay, on with the show.
Back to the interviews.
It's time for Ask an Expert onthe Science Podcast, and I have
doctor of public healthcandidate Sabina Fohra-Miller
(24:19):
here with us today, also knownas Unambiguous Science on
Instagram.
How are you doing today, sabina?
Speaker 3 (24:25):
I am doing excellent.
How are you?
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Little tongue-tied but I'm good.
I hope you're well.
Where are you calling into theshow from?
Where are you in the world?
Speaker 3 (24:35):
So I am currently calling in from California, but
I am actually a Toronto resident.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Okay, all right, you're way far east of where we
are in Alberta, if you're aresident of Toronto.
Yeah, sure A little warmerweather than us probably
currently today.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
It's actually rainy here today.
We don't get a lot of rain, butI think California needs rain,
so it's good.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Yeah, have you been in California long?
Speaker 3 (25:01):
We've been here now for the last two years, but we
are moving back to Toronto thissummer, which I'm very excited
about.
There's nothing like home andToronto is.
I'm a Toronto girl, true, andso I'm really looking forward to
going back.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
You know what Of my family, I am the only one who
hasn't been to Toronto.
My, you know what Of my family,I am the only one who hasn't
been to Toronto.
My wife has been a couple times, my sons have been and I have
not.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
What's the center of the universe right?
Speaker 1 (25:25):
We here tell that here in Alberta.
Yes, that's a Canadian joke forthe Canadians.
So, sabina, what's yourtraining in science?
Could you break that down forus?
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Oh, yeah, for sure.
So I'm probably going to givemy age by saying this, but I
have a master's in clinicalpharmacology and toxicology from
a really long time ago From theUniversity of Toronto.
I actually worked closely witha teratology neonatology program
called Mother Risk out of theHospital for Sick Children,
(25:55):
pretty ubiquitously known acrossCanada.
I did that a really long timeago.
I ended up leaving.
I finished with a master'sdegree, I was in the PhD program
, switched out with my master's,and then I actually worked in
biotech as a scientific advisorfor a very long time and my area
of expertise there was reallyin oncology, specifically
(26:16):
immuno-oncology.
But I actually ended up leavingVAT in 2016, just before my son
was born, and the reason forthat was because I wanted to
start my family foundation, andthe focus of our foundation is
similar it's health of theplanet, health of the people and
somehow, through COVID, I gotroped right back in into science
(26:38):
and SciComm and so I'mcurrently almost done my doctor
of public health at the DallaLana School of Public Health
hopefully should be done by theend of this year, if I get all
my stats done, which don't dothemselves, by the way.
I don't know if anyone knowsthis.
But yeah, that's the long storyshort.
I've had a bit of a meanderingjourney, but I think through and
(26:58):
through I am super passionateabout science.
It is being something that I'vealways been drawn to and I
don't think it's a part of methat will ever go.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Aw, when you were little, were you a science kid?
Were you mixing potions andcatching bugs and exploring the
world, and exploring the world.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
Can I tell you my parents still laugh about this
but I used to be an avid readerand I didn't grow up in North
America I'm actually a firstgeneration immigrant and so I
didn't have access to a lot ofbooks, especially books in
English.
So when I needed something toread, I would actually take out
the product inserts frommedicines, from drugs and sit
(27:37):
there and just read productinserts day in and day out.
And of course, I went in tostudy pharmacology.
It all just makes perfect sense.
But I was 10 years old and Iwould ask my mom all these
questions about what doeswhatever it is the word that I
was reading on those productinserts say.
But I've always really enjoyedscience and trying to understand
(27:59):
how the body works.
And it's funny, my husband's anengineer and he's a tech geek
and my son is unfortunatelygoing in his path, but I keep
reminding him I know,unfortunately, but I keep
reminding him that, honestly,the best computer, the best AI,
the best robots, the bestanything you could ever think of
, is the human body.
There is simply nothing moreintelligent, more capable than
(28:24):
the human body and I think that,for me, has always fascinated
me.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Yeah, that's very cool.
Can I ask where you're fromoriginally?
You said you're firstgeneration Canada.
Is that?
Is it okay for me to ask that?
I'm just curious.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
Yeah, absolutely.
I am actually a South Asian, soI'm from India, I'm from Delhi,
the capital, and my husband'sactually Caucasian, and so our
kiddo is.
He's a cute little mixed kidthat likes to, he loves talking
about Diwali and at the sametime he loves listening to my
(28:56):
husband talk about his Europeanroots.
So it's a really nice mishmashof like half South Asian, I
think, a quarter Scottish, aquarter German, half English.
Yeah, it's really cute.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Oh, thank you for sharing that's.
That's great.
I sound very proud of yourfamily, which is amazing.
So maybe switching gears intoyour the SciComm you have.
Like you said, you're prettypassionate about science
communication and that'sactually how we found you on
Instagram, like the Bunsen,beaker and Brulie account.
We follow lots of science folksand scientists and you're out
(29:29):
there busting myths andcorrecting misinformation.
Perspective as somebody in thatrealm, especially as you're
moving towards public health,being a doctor of public health,
is there some big bits ofmisinformation or myths that
you'd like to tell us about thatwe need to watch out for.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Yeah, and so I've been actually trying to bust
some of these myths, especiallyon vaccines, for a very long
time.
It actually really started whenI was pregnant with my son, and
I think that was my first foyerinto some of these Facebook mom
groups and I think the firsttime when I actually came across
people who were hesitant onvaccines like I'm a first
(30:07):
generation immigrant, I didn'treally have great access to
vaccines growing up and like Iremember standing out under the
sun for hours waiting because itwas vaccine day day at school
and just the importance of it.
So it was really the first timewhen I came across people who
were hesitant about vaccines.
In my entire life I had notreally come across that and so I
(30:28):
started answering questions onvaccines and trying to
understand where these fearswere coming from, and it was
really just really interestingto see what people were
concerned about and what theywere anxious about.
And then I had my son and itwas interesting because at that
point I finally understood andrealized where some of these
anxieties are coming from.
As a parent, you're alwaystrying to do the best you can
(30:49):
for your child especially, andsometimes you hear about a lot
of this fear mongering,misinformation that is just so
pervasive these days and itreally makes you wonder if
you're doing the right thing oryou're not.
So the one thing I come acrossvery often when I'm speaking to
especially parents is what about?
(31:12):
Should I be worried aboutvaccine side effects?
How worried should I be aboutthem?
Are they very common?
And that's something that I'veheard repeatedly over the last
decade with respect to vaccines,and I think it's just really
interesting for folks inhealthcare and in public health
to take a step back andunderstand why people are
worried and actually have theseconversations about these
(31:34):
concerns that people have.
First of all, everything inlife carries risk.
You getting into your car,driving to work has a risk.
It's not risk-free.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
Crazy risky, it's do all day.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
Exactly that, and I think people do it because
they're so desensitized to it.
It's something they do on aroutinely, daily basis and they
don't think about that.
But everything carries risks,and the point is that, going to
work, earning an income thebenefits from that obviously
outweigh that risks that youtake when you're driving a car.
You also have things whereyou're trying to reduce risks,
(32:08):
like you have seatbelts, youhave speed limits, you have all
of that in place, you havetraffic lights, right.
These are all ways that weactually decrease risk, but
nothing carries zero risk.
And so, when it comes down tovaccines, what ends up happening
is that the risks in somepeople's minds are way overblown
and the benefits areunderplayed.
And in public health, this isbecause of the prevention
(32:30):
paradox, and the reason isbecause vaccines have
essentially either fullyeliminated or drastically
reduced the incidence of severaldiseases, infectious diseases
that we just don't see.
And because we don't see, wedon't really realize the impact
they used to have before thevaccines were in place.
And so what's really importantto understand is that with
(32:54):
vaccines, yes, there are risks,but the risks are generally
minor, minor side effects thatcan happen.
Say, for instance, you mighthave a slight fever, you might
have a sore arm and very rarelyyou could potentially have a
more severe side effect.
But overall, overwhelmingly,the benefits of the vaccines
(33:14):
outweigh these risks that doexist and that's the point
that's really critical andreally important to know.
And we's the point that'sreally critical and really
important to know and we'reseeing that play out right now
with the measles outbreaks aswell in the.
US.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Canada.
Can I jump in Just out ofanxiety?
I haven't really been keepingup with the measles thing.
Sabina, is it going to start tobe bad?
Because that's what I'm hearingthe more I look into it like
it's starting to spread in areas.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
We're already seeing cases at an unprecedented rate,
right, if you look at the numberof cases we already have, I
mean, if you actually look atthe case for case in Ontario
compared to Texas.
We don't hear about this verymuch in Canada, but the cases
Ontario far exceed those inTexas based on population size.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Yeah yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:57):
So it's actually a huge issue right now and we
already have more cases thisyear in all of Canada than we
had for all of last year.
So unfortunately, we're not,the trend is not going in the
right direction and we're seeingthat happen not just in the US
and not just in Canada, but also, of course, globally.
(34:18):
So, yeah, I am concerned aboutthis because we do have
something that is exceptionallyeffective in preventing the
disease preventing deaths.
We've seen now already twodeaths that have occurred in
young kids one in Texas, one inOntario in the last four to six
months, and it's reallyunfortunate and it's really
heartbreaking, especially as aparent, because this was very
(34:42):
much preventable.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
And you can please correct me if I'm wrong, because
I'm a chemistry guy, not aninfectious disease person.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
I would never have guessed with that name of it,
bunsen-durner, really Neverwould have guessed.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Where's my?
Where's my?
Oh, I have a soundboard whenguests.
There we go, there we go.
Good, Measles is crazy,infectious.
Right, it's one of the mostinfectious things.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
Extremely infectious.
It lingers in the air for solong.
It lingers in the air for likeclose to two hours if someone
who was infectious was in theroom with you, and it's just,
and if you're not, you don'thave that wall of immunity with
respect to herd immunity andvaccines.
It can infect so many people,it's just.
(35:31):
It is actually the mostcontagious and most infectious
pathogen out there and and it'ssomething that can kill kids.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Right, it's not harmless.
You don't get like a littlerash Maybe you do and some most
people get better but it legitcan kill kids if they get it
Absolutely can kill kids.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
We've already seen that happen right With the cases
that we see both here inOntario as well as we saw in
Texas.
But not just the deaths.
I think also it's important toremember it can cause so many
other very severe issues as well.
Pneumonia is another thing, butthe other thing that I am
terrified about with respect tomeasles is the brain swelling
(36:11):
that it can cause and the brainswelling so one out of every
thousand children can get thisreally severe brain swelling,
which can lead to blindness,deafness and even worse outcomes
.
And then it can also cause thisthing called immune amnesia,
where your body essentiallyforgets how to fight off other
pathogens, other infections, andso it makes you a lot more
(36:33):
susceptible to tons of otherinfections and it's just overall
an exceptionally dangerousdisease.
And of course, let's not forgetthat we also do see deaths due
to measles that can occur.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Good to know and that's the measles vaccine for
most kids in North America Isthat in the?
That's in the MMR thing?
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Exactly, yeah.
So the MMR vaccine containsvaccines for measles, mumps and
rubella.
It's usually given as atwo-dose, so two doses means
you're fully vaccinated and twodoses gives you 97% protection
against measles, and it'sbasically, for the most part,
for most people.
Again, nothing is ever 100%,but for most people it actually
(37:14):
provides lifelong immunity aswell.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Nice.
Ironically enough, Sabina, I'ma classroom teacher.
That's my day job.
I teach high school chemistry.
The grade nines at our schoolwere being immunized today.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
Oh nice.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
It was immunization day.
Today they're calling the kidsdown by last name.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
So I guess it was for HPV slightly different topic,
but likely for the HPVvaccination which, by the way,
yesterday was HPV awareness day.
And guess what?
The best part, like the onething I love to talk about, is
you know how there are folks theones who are anti-science, et
cetera who keep talking abouthow big pharma and everyone, the
FDA, et cetera they're keepingaway the cure for prevention of
(37:55):
cancer.
Guess what, guys?
There is actually a vaccinethat can prevent cancer.
It's the HPV vaccine.
Go get it.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
It's wild, isn't it?
The stats are starting to comein.
And then I want to say Scotland, it has 100% eliminated
cervical cancer.
It's gone.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
Exactly that.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
That's wild to me.
Speaker 3 (38:17):
It is so wild.
And so here you have,essentially, a vaccine that
works so incredibly well toprevent cancer and so effective,
and just it's just absolutelyincredible.
And so we have things thatprevent cancer, prevent
infections, and we're at a point, in a moment in time, where
people are just denying theutility of vaccines in general,
(38:37):
which is just so unfortunate.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
I apologize, I think I misspoke.
I think it's death due tocervical cancer is now is at
zero.
I apologize, I don't think thecervical cancer is zero.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
No, so the study from Scotland?
Actually, the HBV vaccine was100% effective in preventing
invasive cervical cancer in thatstudy.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Oh okay, yeah, so there was zero cases.
I felt I was overselling itthere.
I'm so sorry.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
No, you're not, you're underselling it.
So, really, in that study, theyfound zero cases of invasive
cervical cancer in all of thewomen who were immunized at the
right time, so at age 12 or 13years of age, and yeah, and so
that's how exceptionallyeffective it is.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
That is, bananas, bananas.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
B-A-N-A-N-A.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Yeah from the office.
Very cool.
Okay, I appreciate picking yourbrain about some of the
misinformation that's out there.
It's a tough.
Maybe just a quick questionaside.
It's tough to know what youshould do when somebody is
vaccine hesitant Like I'm aclassroom teacher.
(39:45):
I have a really goodrelationship with the.
I taught grade nine honorscience and it was time for
vaccines and the one kids ohyeah, we're, I'm not going to
get that.
My family, we don't do that inmy family and I don't know.
It's not really my place tojump in there and start to say
something.
I feel or maybe it is like it'sthis weird.
(40:05):
What should you do whensomebody's decision is that way?
Speaker 3 (40:10):
I think the most important part, or the most
important role that we can playin situations like that is
actually to try and have peoplethink through their own
rationale and actually ask themwhat exactly it is that they're
worried about, and I think thisis also.
I've come across a lot ofpeople who are vaccine hesitant,
and so some of the things I doask them is that what exactly is
(40:32):
it that you're most concernedabout?
And the reason why I asked thisquestion is because not
everyone has the exact sameconcerns, so you don't want to
be throwing out jargon and stuffdown their throat when that's
actually what you're trying totell them is not what they're
most concerned about.
So I'll give you an example.
In the early days of theCOVID-19 vaccine, I was doing a
lot of work with the South Asiancommunity and the uptake wasn't
(40:54):
that great.
And we started having theseconversations with our community
and the thing that they mostwanted to what was keeping them
from getting the vaccine wasactually they didn't know
whether there were any sort ofanimal products in these
vaccines.
It was such a simple thing tohave addressed, but no one
thought to ask.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
They were worried.
It's got like animal protein orsomething.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
Exactly that, and that was just such a simple,
easy thing to have answered andaddressed, and we started having
these consultations with thecommunity, answer these
questions that they had withrespect to the ingredients of
the vaccine, whether they cancontain animal products or blood
products, and that alleviatedso many fears right.
And so I think that's why it'sreally important to first stop
(41:38):
and ask what are you mostconcerned about?
And sometimes I would even say,hey, can you pull up some
things that you've read andlet's actually try and see how
reputable these sources are.
And then sometimes I counterand bring publications of my own
and say, okay, let's compareand contrast these two studies
or these two papers.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Your YouTube video versus my paper.
Speaker 3 (41:59):
Yeah, or that it gets a little tricky.
I've actually seen the gamut ofall of this.
My father, south Asian, getsall of his information from
WhatsApp from like randomaunties in India, and it's
actually really good because heloves to forward these things to
me saying did you know?
And I'm crazy out there, butit's really good because it
(42:20):
actually keeps me up to date onwhat I need to think of
encounter, et cetera.
So it's actually really goodfor me to keep up with all of
the stuff that he's getting.
But, yeah, his primary sourceof news is basically WhatsApp
and random stuff that brownaunties in India send him.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
I don't know.
You got to get your news fromsomewhere and it's good that
he's got you in your corner tokind of bust some of the
randomness that comes across hisWhatsApp feed.
Yep, hey Sabina, can I pickyour brain about bird flu, yes,
or avian flu?
In Canada we still have eggs,but I think it's starting to
(42:59):
affect the American supply ofeggs and is there a possibility
of it starting to affect people,or has it already done that?
Speaker 3 (43:09):
Unfortunately, it has already done that, so let's
just maybe take a step back.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
You just jumped in hot.
Speaker 3 (43:15):
No, it's great.
It's great.
I think you should jump back,but I just I wanted to give some
background information becauseI think that sometimes what
happens, I think right now, isthat we're hearing so much about
birth flu and people think it'snew.
Avian flu is actually not new.
It's been around for decadesand there's actually several
different.
The highly pathogenic versionof avian influenza, which is the
one that is really dangerousfor poultry, is caused by two
(43:38):
different types of influenza Aviruses it's the H5 and the H7
viruses and they've been aroundfor decades, and so currently
the infectious strain that iscausing havoc in North America
is the H5N1.
And again, it's not new.
It's been around for decades,but since 2024, so in the last
(44:00):
year and a bit what started withonly one human dairy cattle in
one state is now essentially athousand herds in 16 states, and
(44:24):
we're hearing about new humancases occurring almost on a
monthly basis right Both in theUS and Canada.
So it's not new, it's beenaround.
The issue is that we're seeingspillover happen now, which
means that it started with birds, you know, wild birds.
We've seen it, and then we'veseen it in poultry, but now it's
(44:46):
spilling over to a new hostpopulation.
So we saw it kind of spill overto the cows and then we saw
multiple different genotypesactually.
So we've had multiple spilloverevents happening in cows, which
means that there is that riskof even more spillover events.
And the more spillover eventsyou have, the more exposure
(45:08):
humans especially dairy farmworkers, poultry workers have
with it, the higher the risk itends up being for human exposure
.
So that's the concern.
Speaker 1 (45:18):
Okay, all right, thank you.
You did what like probablythree hours of internet
searching would have done for me, so I appreciate you succinctly
breaking that down.
That was amazing.
I so appreciate that.
Now I don't know if it's tooearly to worry about.
Is this something that shouldbe like, should we think about,
should this be something on ourradar, or is it a wait and see
(45:41):
situation?
Speaker 3 (45:42):
Okay.
So here's the thing At thispoint the concern and the risk
for human to human transmission.
It continues to be low.
It's because that there is whatwe call tropism, so avian
influenza tends to bind withreceptors that are not
necessarily as commonly found inhumans and they're a lot more
(46:03):
commonly found in, obviously,poultry.
We're seeing it in cattle, butwe're seeing also cats and dogs
tend to have more of thesereceptors, and so because these
animals have a higherconcentration of these receptors
in their respiratory tractscompared to humans, they are
more susceptible.
What we haven't really seen sofar is human to human
(46:24):
transmission.
Ie if you know, a dairy farmworker has gotten infected
because of exposure to the dairycattle.
There hasn't been onwardtransmission, ie that person has
not then transmitted it to evenhousehold contacts, and that's
a good thing, which means we'renot necessarily seeing, we don't
have to be concerned right nowfor human to human transmission.
(46:46):
That continues to be low.
However, the issue here is thatthe more you see things like
this happen, the more there ischances of mutations occurring,
and you can have mutations thatthen render this virus to be
more susceptible for human tohuman transmission.
So that's the biggest concernright now, but I think, also
(47:08):
importantly, it means that wehave to actually ramp up all of
our preparedness and mitigationefforts, right, and that's the
thing about public health Ifit's working well and if it's
working beautifully, it works inthe background and you don't
even realize it.
And so good public health wouldessentially be doing everything
they can right now in thebackground so that we never get
(47:29):
to a phase where there is apandemic or there is human to
human transmission, etc.
And so that's what we're doingright now in Canada.
Actually, we have somefantastic plans in place.
For instance, we are right nowworking on vaccines, right.
We just, in fact, signed a dealwhere we were going to have
half a million doses off thevaccine to be manufactured in
(47:52):
Canada especially, which I thinkis really important given all
of these tariffs important,given all of these tariffs, but
not just that which is ourNational Association for
Immunization in Canada.
They actually have a fantasticplan framework for distribution
and prioritization of thesevaccines in an obviously in a
non-pandemic context.
But these are all things thatneed to be done, and they are
(48:13):
being done, which I think shouldbe a huge relief for people to
know that we are working on thisin the background.
There's so much happening inthe background, but of course,
there are risks that do exist,and I'm happy to go over some of
the key things that I thinkpeople should be aware of.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
Sure, if you've got the time, you're the first
person we've talked to thisabout.
So yeah, if you've got the time, sabina, go for it.
Speaker 3 (48:39):
For sure.
I think that right now, thereis tons of fear mongering that
is also occurring.
So I really want to balance outwhat people should be worried
about and what they shouldn't beworried about.
So don't be worried about humanto human transmission right now
, but what you should know andwhat you should do to reduce
your risk, first of all, is onlydrink pasteurized milk.
I think that is key.
Please, no raw milk, formultiple reasons.
(49:01):
Let's make it timely and sayparticularly not for avian
influenza.
I also think it's reallyimportant for people to
thoroughly cook their meatbefore they consume it and
similarly, don't give your petsbecause this is a podcast
P-A-W-D.
We should also keep in mindthat.
Don't give your pets any ofthis raw milk, and especially
not the raw food.
(49:21):
We've seen actually severalcases of cats oh interesting,
yeah, cats and dogs dyingbecause of consumption of meat
that was infected with avianinfluenza.
So really important to not justkeep yourself protected but
keep your pets protected.
And same if you have pets, makesure that you keep cats, for
(49:41):
instance, indoors, not outdoors.
Same with dogs.
Make sure they're not actuallygoing up to any sort of sick or
dead bird, especially now thatwe're going back into bird
migratory season.
We're going to see birds comingup up.
We're going to see tons of thathappen, so we might come across
birds that are sick or dead wildbirds, and so I think it's
(50:05):
really important for not justyou to keep distance but your
children to keep distance fromsick and dead birds, and
especially your pets to keepdistance, that's.
I can tell you.
I have two dogs.
One of them does not care aboutanything.
The other other one wants toeat everything.
So, especially for my youngerpup, who is super curious
(50:26):
through her mouth, it's going tobe really important for me to
make sure that I keep a closeeye on her when we are outdoors.
And then I think also it'sreally important if you have
backyard farms I know it'ssomething that is super trendy
right now, but again, superimportant for people who do have
backyard farms, particularly ifyou have chickens and you have
eggs, et cetera, to keep themaway from wild birds and use
(50:48):
proper PPE if you are handlingany of your backyard farms.
So I think those are the keythings people really need to
remember with avian influenzaand also know that the Public
Health Agency of Canada andothers are working diligently in
the background.
Speaker 1 (51:04):
Awesome.
Thank you.
I feel relieved which withwhat's going on right now.
It's nice to feel that.
Speaker 3 (51:11):
I agree, and there's a reason why I didn't go into
all of the US politics with itbecause it's a mess and I really
don't want to bring people downright now.
But I think for Canadians it'simportant to know that we have
some incredible institutionshere, that public health
institutions that are reallykeeping up with it, and
hopefully our neighbors in theUS understand and realize the
importance of public health andalso bring back all of their
(51:36):
departments who do a lot of thisimportant work.
Speaker 1 (51:39):
Go Canada, at least for right now yes.
Thanks, sabina.
I just have a real quickquestion before we get to our
last one.
We ask all our guests youmentioned your foundation, the
Vora Miller Foundation.
Could you just talk to us aboutthat a little bit Sure.
Speaker 3 (51:57):
So our foundation was created in 2016.
Actually, so the processstarted in 2016, but it actually
sorry I'm trying to.
Now I'm going to have to goback.
I feel like my memorypost-COVID and pre-COVID
timelines are a little messed up, but let me go back to it.
So 2016, I actually left my jobto focus on the foundation.
(52:20):
By the time the foundation wasup and running, it was actually
the month we went into alockdown in 2020.
I remember we couldn't actuallyopen any of our bank accounts
because we were in lockdown,which was very interesting, but
my husband and I basicallycreated this foundation.
We got really lucky in life.
My husband was the chiefproduct officer at Shopify and
(52:40):
we got super lucky in life, andI think both of us have always
found this incredible need tomake sure that we are
contributing to our community.
We both strongly believe thatwe don't thrive unless everyone
thrives, and so that was reallythe reason why we created our
foundation, and the two thingsthat we thought at that time,
when we first started working onour foundation, was health of
(53:03):
the planet.
As we know, environmentalclimate change is massive and is
not stopping anytime soon.
In fact, it's progressing at analarming rate, and so we knew
we needed to focus on that, andI also wanted to make sure that
we were taking a full, wholesomeapproach to health, with public
(53:23):
health, environmental health,health equity All of these are
interconnected.
You can't really deal with onewithout making sure you're
actually looking at the othersas well, and so we took this
holistic view on making sure wewere looking at both health of
the planet and health of thepeople, with a specific health
equity lens to it, just becauseI obviously am a person of color
(53:46):
and it's something that's veryimportant to me.
So we've continued doing that.
I do a lot of work on publichealth through our foundation
too.
I use different hats, so tospeak, in all of the different
work I do, but it's alwaystowards a similar goal making
sure that we're leaving theworld a better place for our
children and a more just andequitable world for our children
(54:08):
.
So those are the two key thingsthat we focus on.
Speaker 1 (54:11):
Nice.
Just for people who areinterested in the show notes,
I'll have a link to yourfoundation.
I was poking around it beforewe chatted.
There's a little video of youtalking on TiVo, TVO about
COVID-19.
Speaker 3 (54:26):
Yeah, that sounds about right.
It's funny there are times whenI've actually joked around with
.
I just did a podcast on measlesthe other day and I was just
joking around about this andsaying I'd love to actually go
on a media or podcast and talkabout fun things, like happy
things, and not constantly aboutinfectious diseases and deaths.
And unfortunately that's theline of work I am in.
Speaker 1 (54:48):
But yeah, I can pivot us there.
Yeah, we ask all of our guestsif they would like to share a
pet story from their life ortalk about their pets, and I
think that's a rather joyfulpart of everybody's day.
In fact, it might be, the mostjoyful part of everybody's day,
absolutely.
Our audience would love to hearyour pet story.
Speaker 3 (55:10):
Oh, thank you for that opportunity.
I can talk about this for hours.
I have two dogs and I love mytwo babies, my two fur babies.
So you know my first dog.
He's 14 years old, so you knowhe's a senior.
His name's Pico and it's funnyhow his name came to be my
husband's an engineer.
I'm obviously in STEM as well,and so we're both STEM geeks.
(55:31):
And we saw him and he was arunt.
He was not expected to survive.
And so we saw him and he was sotiny.
And so we saw him and he was sotiny and I made this joke I'm
like he's not a puppy, he's amicro puppy.
And then my husband saidactually he's a nano puppy.
And then we actually said,almost in unison, he's a pico
puppy, 10 to the minus 12 andthe name just stuck.
(55:51):
We're like it's pico's his name.
Interestingly, I actuallyoriginally wanted to call him
Trebek, like Alex Trebek fromJeffree.
Speaker 1 (55:58):
Oh my heart, we love Alex so much.
Speaker 3 (56:01):
Me too, but in retrospect I'm really glad we
didn't name him that, because asit is, it'd be really hard to
yell at a dog and say, no Trebek, how does that work?
But even more so now that AlexTrebek passed away, and it was
actually one of the mostheartbreaking moments and I
could not yell that name out,and so I'm really happy we
(56:22):
didn't name Pico Trebek inretrospect, You'd also have to
change all of your dog commandsin the form of a question to him
.
Yes, exactly, exactly, I didn'teven think of that.
So for multiple reasons I am sohappy we didn't go with Trebek
and we actually went with Pico,which was actually a super geeky
name.
10 to the minus 12.
Thankfully, our son actuallynamed our other dog.
(56:43):
So our other dog is almost twoyears old.
Her name's Callie Rose and ourson named her Callie because we
got her when we were here inCalifornia, and Rose because the
Rose Gardens are one of hisfavorite places to go, and so he
named her Callie Rose, which Ithink is a really cute name, and
I'm so happy I didn't have toname another living being.
Speaker 1 (57:07):
What types of dogs are Pico and Callie Rose?
Speaker 3 (57:10):
Pico is a Morkie, a part Maltese, part New Yorkie.
Speaker 2 (57:14):
And.
Speaker 3 (57:14):
Callie is a Cavachon, so she's a part Cavalier and a
part Bichon.
Speaker 1 (57:19):
Oh, that's.
Speaker 3 (57:21):
They're really cute.
They're really sweet.
They hate each other.
Actually, no, hang on.
Pico hates Callie.
Callie's obsessed with Pico.
It's similar to the situationyou have with Bernoulli and
Ginger.
Speaker 1 (57:32):
Oh my God, one is at the other and the other one is,
just not today, please.
Speaker 3 (57:36):
Exactly, and the funny thing is that Callie is so
much bigger five times biggerin size than Pico.
But Pico terrifies her, which Ijust think is hilarious,
because he's also 14.
He's skinny now and really old,and he has arthritis and he
actually has a brain tumor too.
So he's a sick, olderly, fraillittle puppy and she's terrified
(58:01):
of him but obsessed with him atthe same time, and I just think
the dynamics between the twoare just absolutely hilarious
yeah, those pet dynamics aresomething else I agree.
Speaker 1 (58:11):
Yeah, ginger terrifies bunsen, who's our
older bernice, and bunsen is ourhero dog, our protector.
He fought a coyote and savedBeaker.
He's found a lost dog like this.
He's a legendary dog, whatBunsen has done in his life and
he is terrified of that cat thatis hilarious.
Speaker 3 (58:29):
I find that so funny.
And Pico is, he's five poundson a good day and and it's funny
because, ginger and heterrifies like.
We were at the vet two weeksago for his annual vaccines and
there was a German Shepherd inthe waiting room and the German
Shepherd was terrified of Pico.
I'm like what is happening?
Speaker 2 (58:49):
That German.
Speaker 3 (58:50):
Shepherd could have Pico for breakfast, and I don't
know, I don't know.
I just think it's hilarious.
Speaker 1 (58:57):
It's that some of the dogs, they just have that aura
about them.
The don't mess with me aura.
Speaker 3 (59:02):
Yes, yes, and Pico, pico is that, yeah, really cute
and funny.
Speaker 1 (59:09):
I so appreciate you sharing your pet story with us.
Even though we talked aboutsome pretty serious stuff, this
was a pretty joyful end to ourconversation.
Thank you so much for being aguest on our show today talking
about some misinformation aroundvaccines and, of course, the
avian flu.
We're really lucky to have yourexpertise and thank you so much
.
Speaker 3 (59:27):
Oh, thank you for having me.
I think you can hear Pico inthe background right now because
he's getting a little antsy.
Yeah, thank you for having me,and I really enjoyed chatting
with you, especially about theopportunity to talk about my dog
.
Speaker 1 (59:38):
so thank you we'll make sure there's a link to your
instagram social media and thenany other links you'd send us.
Send them our way and we'llmake sure those are in the show
notes when the episode comes outamazing, thank you okay, take
care.
Awesome.
That's it for this week's show.
Thanks for coming back weekafter week to listen to the
science podcast.
If you love our show and wantto support us and a perk of
(01:00:02):
being one of our top tiersupporters is you get a shout
out at the end of the showthat's the top dogs on the Paw
Pack Plus community, so take alook at our show notes to
support us there.
We'd love it, chris, let's hearthose names.
Speaker 2 (01:00:16):
Amelia Fettig, rhi Oda, carol Hainel, jennifer
Challen, linnea, chris let's andcuteness.
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