April 23, 2025 • 29 mins
This week we look to deunk myths about rising autism rates and explain the genetic and environmental factors at play, while exploring the resurrection of dire wolves through genetic engineering and how puppy cognition predicts adult dog behavior.
• CDC data shows autism diagnoses increased from 1 in 150 children in 2000 to 1 in 31 in 2022
• Approximately 80% of autism cases stem from inherited genetic variations with 200+ genes linked to early brain development
• Better screening, diagnosis, and awareness accounts for much of the increase in autism rates
• Scientists have genetically engineered puppies with dire wolf traits using DNA from ancient remains
• The three pups—Romulus, Remus, and Khaleesi—received 20 gene edits targeting coat color, body size, and facial features
• Study of 1,400+ puppies shows early cognitive traits persist into adulthood
• Puppies good at following pointing gestures became more trainable adults, while those with better impulse control grew into calmer dogs
• Understanding puppy cognition allows for customized training approaches that support lifelong well-being
Some Links and Studies:
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/autism-adhd-risk-not-linked-prenatal-exposure-antidepressants
S. Gilman et al. Rare de novo variants associated with autism implicate a large functional network of genes involved in formation and function of synapses. Neuron, Vol. 70, June 9, 2011. DOI:10.1016/j.neuron.2011.05.021
D. Levy et al. Rare De Novo and Transmitted Copy-Number Variation in Autistic Spectrum Disorders. Neuron, Vol. 70, June 9, 2011. DOI 10.1016/j.neuron.2011.05.015
Y. Sakai et al. Protein interactome reveals converging molecular pathways among autism disorders. Science Translational Medicine, Vol. 3, June 8, 2011. doi: 10.1126/scitranslmed.3002166
Sanders et al. Multiple Recurrent De Novo CNVs, Including Duplications of the 7q11.23 Williams Syndrome Region, Are Strongly Associated with Autism. Neuron, Vol. 70, June 9, 2011. DOI:10.1016/j.neuron.2011.05.015
C. Schaaf et al. Oligogenic heterozygosity in individuals with high-functioning autism spectrum disorder. Human Molecular Genetics. doi: 10.1093/hmg/ddr243. Available online: [Go to]
C.P. Schaaf and H.Y. Zoghbi. Solving the autism puzzle a few pieces at a time. Neuron, Vol. 70, June 9, 2011. DOI: 10.1016/j.neuron.2011.05.025
I. Voineagu et al. Transcriptomic analysis of autistic brain reveals convergent molecular pathology. Nature. doi: doi:10.1038/nature10110
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hello science enthusiasts.
I'm Jason Zukoski.
And I'm Chris Zukoski, we'rethe pet parents of Bunsen,
beaker, bernoulli and Ginger.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
The science animals on social media.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
If you love science.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
And you love pets.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
You've come to the right spot, so put on your
safety glasses and hold on toyour tail.
This is the Science Podcast.
Hi everybody, welcome back tothe Science Podcast.
We hope you're happy andhealthy out there.
Just some quick pet news beforewe get on with the rest of the
show.
Bunsen got cleared for lightactivity so he's been on a
couple walks with Bernoulli andBeaker, definitely down to the
(00:48):
last couple patches of snow.
There's a few of them in thecreek that take, you know,
another month to melt.
They're just in a shady areaand quite deep, if I'm going to
be honest with you.
So it's really cool to seeBunsen play in the snow and he
gets to come with Bernoulli andBeaker on these walks Because
it's been months, it's been along time where Bunsen's been on
(01:12):
light activity and then beforethat, house arrest.
So we'll see how it goes.
We're going to take things easyand see how he does.
So far, so good, all right.
On the show this week we got acouple of good science news
items.
One is pretty topical, actuallythey're both really topical,
they're both been in the news.
One definitely a touchy subject.
(01:32):
That's about autism and therising autism rates.
What's that from?
Why is that happening?
We're going to look at ascience based approach to answer
that.
And the other science news itemis another genetic engineering
story that was everywhere.
It was a company, the same onethat did the woolly mammoth
(01:53):
mouse, did a dire wolf.
So Game of Thrones fans, thisone's for you.
And in pet science there was anew study that looked at over a
thousand puppies and found outthere's a lot of things in
common between how a puppy actedversus the adult and how you
could tailor training with that.
Okay, on with the show.
(02:13):
There's no time like ScienceTime.
This week in science news let'sbreak down the timely
discussion about autism, whichdefinitely can be touchy subject
, and it was kicked off by inthe United States, who was very
concerned with the rise ofautism and was going at it in a
(02:35):
less than scientific manner.
So what Chris and I are goingto do is we're just going to
talk about what the experts whostudy autism are saying, and of
course, it's backed up byvarious studies.
We'll have some links to themin our show notes, but it is
definitely a touchy subject,because I'm sure you've taught
kids who have autism, chris.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Yeah, for sure.
And actually in the first yearof my teaching career, I taught
a student with severe autism andI actually learned a lot about
how to support a student who wasneurodivergent, but also
neurodivergent in quite adifferent way, because I had not
(03:18):
previously been exposed to astudent or a person with autism,
and it was really an amazingexperience.
I work closely with hiseducational assistant and he had
a successful year in gradeeight.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
And the same thing that goes for me.
I've had students who've hadmore serious or more severe
forms of autism to students whoyou wouldn't even really know
had autism but were diagnosed ashaving autism.
And things have changed latelybecause autism is now a spectrum
as opposed to a bunch ofdifferent things like Asperger's
(03:57):
.
Do you remember when Asperger'swas a thing?
But now Asperger's is rolledinto the autism umbrella.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Yeah, Asperger's is no longer a diagnosis.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Autism is considered a spectrum of neurological
differences, so taking whateveryou want to consider average,
and then it is differences fromthat average with your brain and
how you perceive things.
You can be nonverbal and, yes,intellectually disabled to very
(04:27):
mildly affected with things likesensory sensitivities.
And it's clear to note that,according to all of the experts
who do work with autism, thereis no single true version of
autism.
I want to say my firstexperience of somebody with
autism was from the movie Rainman.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Oh, yes, yes, I saw that movie too.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Yeah, and that's just what I thought people with
autism were like.
They were very particular aboutthings.
They were geniuses at math.
Very naive of me as a youngperson, but of course, I grew up
in a small community notknowing anybody around me with
autism.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
And at that time were people called savants.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Yeah, they were called savants and generally
they weren't in public school.
You just didn't see them.
They went to a different school, they went to a different
facility, so I didn't see them.
It's not a disorder that can becured and individuals with
(05:34):
autism are more and more seeingit as part of their identity and
some individuals and somefamilies are seriously affected
because, on the much moredisabling side, folks with
autism can absolutely beextremely violent, nonverbal and
have to be institutionalized orrequire help the rest of their
life.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Recently in the news, the CDC published a morbidity
and mortality weekly report andin that report it showed an
increase of children age eightwho were diagnosed with autism
as of 2022, the statistic is onein 31 US children and that's an
(06:15):
increase from one in 36 in 2020and one in 150 in 2000.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
So, in going against a lot of the misinformation out
in the news in the last coupleweeks, autism has very strong
genetic components.
About 80% of the autistic casesare linked to inherited genetic
variations, so meaning that yougot some of the genetic
variations from your parents andthat has led to your autism
(06:46):
diagnosis.
10 to 15% of that is veryunknown and is extremely
complicated.
We're going to get to thatlater.
More than 200 genes have beenlinked to autism, especially
those in early brain development, and again, genetics alone
don't explain everything.
There is a whole host of gooddata that show environmental
(07:10):
interactions play a role, butit's not one thing, it is many
things and there are riskfactors that increase the
chances of an autism diagnosis,and they're varied and they're
vast.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
It's so complicated you can't just point your finger
at this is what causes it.
It's such a super complexcondition and identifying the
root cause is super complex aswell.
They looked at some early braindevelopment risk factors, such
as infections during pregnancy,so getting rubella or taking
(07:50):
certain medications, valproicacid.
They looked if maternal obesitywas a factor.
Air pollution, even asthma andsmoking could trigger it, even
asthma and smoking could triggerit.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yeah, Now these, Chris.
These are all factors thataffect early brain development.
They are not necessarily alllinked to autism, but it is an
early brain development wherethose genes perhaps are turned
on and off for autism.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
And they were looking at premature births as well.
Babies are surviving it earlierand earlier as they were born
prematurely, and they're alsolooking at that factor as well.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Again some misinformation that's out there
that doesn't seem to go away isthat vaccines cause autism.
That has been debunked over andover again, as well as some
other things that I haven'theard of before, like
emotionally distant parenting,ultrasounds and antidepressants.
Those have been debunked ascauses or links to autism, with
(08:58):
all of those different riskfactors.
What does the expert say, chris?
Why are these rates rising fromwhen you and I, just before we
started teaching, until lastyear?
Speaker 2 (09:11):
I alluded to it a little bit earlier, but it's
improved awareness of autism andbetter detection and diagnosis,
as well as screening programsthat are in the medical field,
in the education field, and sohaving that broader diagnostic
criteria does play a part.
(09:31):
And, like I mentioned, thereare the higher survival rates of
preterm babies and,interestingly, rates could be
rising because of older parentalage, especially with fathers.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Interesting Is Down syndrome women right.
The older the woman, the rateof Down syndrome goes up.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
So they're believing it ties into mutations in
chromosomes and they're alsofinding co-diagnosis with other
conditions.
So, looking at that broaderdiagnostic criteria, you might
be diagnosed with autism as wellas another condition.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
In the past, you just had one thing.
Now, maybe, due to thedifferent ways it's diagnosed,
you have multiple things.
Can autism be prevented?
Can you do things to preventautism?
And the answer is not.
Really.
It's so complicated, with ahuge percentage of it related to
genetics and another smallerpercent related to things we
(10:36):
don't know.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
A vast array of things that increase risk to
have an autism diagnosis, and ifyou pick one thing, then you're
missing the big picture,because, as you mentioned, chris
, what's what the main thing weshould focus on is education,
and early intervention, earlyintervention, improved services
(10:58):
and supports for people withautism and calling it a disorder
or saying we need to preventautism is harmful and offensive
and actually hurtful to theautistic community, because they
are members of our human familyand we should support them, not
ostracize them I think my lasttwo cents, chris, is it's just
(11:22):
because you live in a placewhere, um, the rates of autism
are low doesn't necessarily meanthat people in your area aren't
getting autism.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
A good example of this is in the united states.
They tested 16 differentlocations and there was way more
per thousand people beingdiagnosed with autism in
California than, say, texas.
But the big reason why wasthere was way better screening
and early intervention inCalifornia as opposed to Texas.
(11:53):
So when you test for things andyou screen for things, you're
going to find them.
If you don't want anybody tohave autism, never, ever screen
or never test for it.
But if you don't do that, thenyou're missing out on the
ability to have earlyintervention for the kids that
need it.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
And support.
And they did find generallythat boys are still diagnosed
more often than girls, but girlstheir rate is increasing too.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Because they weren't looked at.
That's another thing I'vetalked about this years ago on
the podcast, like why do girlsnot get diagnosed with autism?
And it's because they weren'ttested or screened for it.
All right, so hopefully,hopefully, this is good
information for everybody.
We are a science-based podcastand sometimes there's some
really nasty misinformation outthere that we like to try to
(12:44):
correct in our own little way.
If you're interested, I'll havesome links in our show notes so
you can learn more yourself.
That's our first science newsitem today.
Let's move on to the second one, the second science news item.
I think I could sum up with mylove for a certain House in Game
of Thrones.
Now, you did not like Game ofThrones.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Jason.
It was full of treachery andbackstabbing and I cannot handle
that at all.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
I know I love the books for as much as you could
love books with heartbreak andtreachery, and I love the TV
show up until the last season.
Amazing work taking the booksand turning them into TV.
And if you don't know, in theGame of Thrones there's these
different houses, separated bygeographical region, and they
(13:35):
have a sigil which is like acrest, a family crest, with a
family saying.
And I identified immediatelywith one house in Game of
Thrones, probably because I'm aCanadian living way up north,
which they always reference.
And what house do you thinkthat was Chris?
Speaker 2 (13:53):
That was the house with Ned.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
House Stark.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
House Stark yeah, that was House Stark.
And boy, that spoiler alert.
It didn't go well for Ned and Iwas like what, why did that
happen?
And then it just went downhillfrom there.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Anyways, the sigil of the Stark family is the
Direwolf, and in the TV show, inthe book, all of the Stark
children get a Direwolf.
Direwolves are, of course.
We don't have them living, atleast until lately.
They're an extinct giant wolfthat roamed North America and
Eurasia tens of thousands ofyears ago, but they're gone now.
(14:31):
But as of April 7th, threegenetically engineered pups
named Romulus, remus andKhaleesi have come back into the
world with dire wolf genetics.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Now the company behind the world's first
de-extinction actually hadsomething sensational in the
news not too long ago with thelittle woolly mice, the woolly
mammoth mice.
So, the little furry, amazingFabio hair mice.
(15:07):
Yeah, so these pups, khaleesi,romulus and Remus, were designed
to have physical traits thatwere similar to dire wolves, so
snowy white fur and a muscularbuild and large skulls and a
distinct ear shape.
And of course, the media jumpedin and dubbed them, or named
(15:30):
them scientifically, seismicthat's a very clickbaity title
and some scientists pushed back,saying you know what that claim
is exaggerated or misleading,back saying you know what that
claim is exaggerated ormisleading.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Now, maybe why it's misleading is the company
Colossal did not reconstruct ina complete dire wolf genome.
They use the gray wolf genomewhich is alive today as a
template and they modified itbased on ancient DNA that they
acquired from two dire wolfspecimens.
That's a old tooth found inOhio, a 13,000 year old tooth
and a 72,000 year old inner earbone found in Idaho.
(16:08):
All right, Now that ancient DNAis pretty degraded and messed
up.
If you think of a piece ofpaper, this DNA looks like
confetti.
So they targeted 20 gene edits,that's it, and they used a gene
modified for coat color andother edits affected the gray
(16:29):
wolf's body size, face and earshape.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
It was super cool because they used a
supercomputer to compare and dothe reconstruction of the
confettified DNA.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
I feel like this is exactly what happened in the
plot of Jurassic Park is theyhad bad DNA from dinosaur, dna
from mosquitoes and amber, andthen their supercomputer filled
in the blanks with DNA fromreptiles.
Today, I feel like there's acautionary tale that we've all
(17:03):
lived through watching thosemovies and reading those books.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Jeff Goldblum.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Yeah, shirtless Jeff Goldblum.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Yeah, just because we can doesn't mean that we should
.
They took the nuclei from theiredited cells and they inserted
that nuclei into dog egg cellsthat they had taken the nuclei
out of.
So they had denucleated dog eggcells that they put in the
(17:32):
edited cells, the nucleus fromthe edited cells, and then they
implanted those embryos intosurrogate hounds and the pups
then grew inside the mother andthey were delivered via
C-section.
Now the twins, the males,romulus and Remus, were born in
October and Khaleesi, the singlefemale, was born four months
(17:55):
later.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
All right, so let's put our skepticism hats on, as
we always like to do.
Some scientists and critics ofthis have argued that these pups
are just not true direwolves.
They're modified gray wolvesand of course the company has
accounted for that, saying theirgoal was never to clone them
but to recreate key traits.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Now the science of this is interesting because it
seems to be that dire wolves maybe more closely related to
modern wolves than previouslythought we need to wait until
the preprint study comes outthat is suggesting that dire
wolves may be more closelyrelated to modern wolves,
because it hasn't been peerreviewed yet.
But past research that you'retalking about said that dire
wolves diverged from othercanids 6 million years ago.
(18:44):
So it looks like maybe theremight be some discrepancy in the
research here Now, previouslythat the past research looked at
those original samples but whencolossal took them, they
reanalyze those two originalsamples to create a higher
(19:06):
quality dire wolf genome map.
So it's very interesting and wewill have to wait until that
study is the one that's inpreprint is peer reviewed and
published, if it ever is yeah,because I'm sure some critics,
some science critics, would likea crack at peer reviewing it.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
I think the conclusion is very similar to
what we talked about with thewoolly mouse.
There's pros, people whosupport this, because this
technology can be applied toother animals that may be going
endangered, to increase theirgenetic diversity and recover
the species.
And critics are like no, thisis just wild genetic tampering,
(19:51):
making zoo-like novelties forpeople to gawk at.
We'll leave that up foreverybody listening to decide.
But I don't know.
I'm pretty happy with thecanids we have in our house.
I don't think we need direwolves.
We've got our own couch wolvesin our house.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
They are keeping the pups under wraps Because even
with the woolly mice mammoth,the woolly mammoth mouse, there
were people who got too closefor comfort.
So they do have the pups housedon an 800 hectare preserve in
we're not sure where, but theyhave 10 full-time caretakers and
(20:31):
there's no current plans forpublic access, no current plans
for breeding the animals or nocurrent plans for a Jurassic
Park style attraction.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
As soon as I start seeing tickets for sale to the
ultra wealthy come see direwolves and woolly mammoths
that's when I'm going to bereally concerned.
So there you go.
If you love Game of Thrones andyou loved House Stark and those
dire wolves, this science newsitem is for you.
That's science news for thisweek.
This week in pet science, weget to talk about puppies.
(21:04):
Chris, you got to see somepuppies at like.
What was it?
Bluegrass, something or other?
What was it?
You got to see some puppies.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
I went to Bluegrass Odd Farms and they had a petting
zoo which had animals that werenot puppies, but then they also
had a rescue organization thereand I have never seen so many
little puppies in my life and avariety of puppies, and they
were so cute and I took littleRaffy and we went and we had a
great day hanging out there.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Adam was very happy he got to hold the puppy.
He said they were super cute,and they are.
It's a good thing I didn't go.
We might have four dogs, butthis study is all about puppy
cognition and how puppycognition predicts adult
behavior.
We've talked before about how apuppy thinks when it's little
(21:57):
is a good indication of how youcan train the dog and how well
behaved the dog becomes as anadult.
There's a bunch of traits thatpuppies have, like impulsivity,
response to gestures andreaction to different tasks that
may or may not be solvable.
This study will look at SmartDog, which is a method of
(22:18):
training dogs with caninecognition testing, and the puppy
testing size was enormous.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Yeah, they looked at over 1,400 puppies between three
to seven months old and theytasked the puppies with being
able to follow pointing gesturesto find treats and we do that
with our dogs, like the pointthere, our dogs really know the
point.
And then attempting unsolvablepuzzles was the other one, and
another task included retrievingtreats from a clear cylinder
(22:49):
with a back opening and thepurpose was to measure the
impulse control of the puppy,their social cognition and their
problem-solving skills.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Dogs that attempt those impossible-to-solve
puzzles and keep at it.
They're ones that really stickwith training.
I've talked about that yearsago on the Science Podcast.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Exactly, and so they did some follow-up testing,
which I think is important.
They looked at 99 dogs thatwere retested as adults from,
and those adults were aged fromone to eight years, and many of
the traits remain stable frompuppyhood into adulthood.
So the traits that wereparticularly consistent when
(23:32):
they were first measured at sixto seven months old stayed
consistent when the dogs wereadults.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
That's fun.
So some key correlations fromthe study through surveys found
that puppies that were good atfollowing pointing gestures grew
up to be much more trainableand obedient, and puppies with
better impulse control were alot calmer as adults.
Finally, puppies that show fearor dependency towards testers
(24:04):
were a lot more adverse tostrangers as adults.
What was Bernoulli as a puppy?
He could follow a point.
He was really easy to train forthe most part as a puppy he's
pretty smart.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Yeah, but I'm just trying to think back to him as a
puppy when we were doing thetraining, and partly we didn't
do all the training necessarilyourselves, we did reinforcement
of the training, but we did havehim trained at Waggles.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Yes, they did training there and we did
training at home, which wasgreat, at Waggles.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Yes, they did training there and we did
training at home, which wasgreat.
Yeah, it allowed him to fasttrack up to his level three.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Yeah, bunsen was just a dream to train that guy.
Bunsen is our rock star, heloves school.
We always said that, oh boy,it's school, he just loves
school.
So there you go.
Okay, let's move intoimplications, anyway.
So, aside from Bernoulli andBunsen and Beaker, what are some
(25:03):
of the training implications inthe study?
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Well, they found that early cognitive traits can help
guide making customizedtraining plans for dogs.
So if you have a puppy that isaverse to strangers, by building
self-confidence throughpositive experiences and
training, success has an impact.
As well as encouraginginitiative while reinforcing
good behavior and understandingthe puppy cognition, because it
(25:31):
seems to stay, it helps tailortraining program training
methods to individual dogs andif you have supportive early
training, that could reducesocial anxiety in less confident
dogs.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Yeah, and that's where we I don't know if we
failed Beaker, but we justdidn't do a good job with Beaker
during COVID was the earlytraining Cause it was on, it was
off, it was on, it was off.
So she became fearful of otherdogs not all dogs, but she was
fearful of other dogs.
And then just lately, in thelast four months, we've gotten a
(26:11):
lot of support from Waggles andBeaker has really come out of
her shell.
So it's not too late to teach adog new tricks is what we're
finding with Beaker.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
That is absolutely true In the study, though they
did have some limitations and aplan for future research.
So there was breed bias,because they looked mostly at
Border Collies, labradorRetrievers and German Shepherds
and, as we know, those are likehighly trainable dogs, highly
intelligent dogs that love towork.
(26:40):
So there could be some breedbias.
So they want to look at maybeis the same implications true
for rescue dogs, and they alsofound that the sample that they
looked at was a high proportionof dogs from breeders as opposed
to rescues, and so therecommendation is to expand and
(27:04):
include rescue dogs and lesstraditionally trainable breeds.
Like some dogs, they are likeoh, you have a treat, I do not
care.
Like a husky.
They're like you have nicewords for me, nope.
And then also, if possible,getting a larger sample size for
future studies.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
I think the more we learn about how to train dogs
from a science-based approach isreally important, rather than
throwing spaghetti at the walland not knowing why some things
stick.
This also supports lifelongwell-being for dogs, because
we're training them for theirlife, not for certain tasks.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Yeah, and like I love dogs that get to live their
best life.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
And we're really seeing that with Beaker right
she is.
I think she's living her bestlife now.
I think before this she had avery good life, but now she's
living her best life becauseshe's getting along with dogs.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Yeah, only because it's interesting.
If you watch her, she is notconfident.
But then she puffs up becauseshe wants to be confident and
it's just sending mixed signalsto other dogs and they're like I
don't really get you, what areyou doing?
Or what is going on?
And then throw in COVID andresource protecting and then
(28:17):
also the fact that she isrelentless at trying to chase
things if they're blowing in thewind like a leaf.
She's got some.
She's got some things to workon, but you know what we all do.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Like I said, the last four months have been really
cool to see her blossom and havedog friends and get along with
everybody at daycare all daylong, which is great.
Okay, everybody, that's PetScience for this week.
That's it for this week's show.
Thanks for coming back weekafter week to listen to us, and
a special thanks again to thetop tiers of our Paw Pack, the
(28:49):
Patreon community that we haveto support us.
If you want to join, check outthe link in the show notes.
Take it away, chris.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Amelia Fetig.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Rhi Oda.
Carol out the link in the shownotes.
Take it away, Chris, Forscience, empathy and cuteness.
Hello science enthusiasts.
I'm Jason Zukoski.
And I'm Chris Zukoski, we'rethe pet parents of Bunsen,
beaker, bernoulli and Ginger.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
The science animals on social media.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
If you love science.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
And you love pets.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
You've come to the right spot, so put on your
safety glasses and hold on toyour tail.
This is the Science Podcast.
Hi everybody, welcome back tothe Science Podcast.
We hope you're happy andhealthy out there.
Just some quick pet news beforewe get on with the rest of the
show.
Bunsen got cleared for lightactivity so he's been on a
couple walks with Bernoulli andBeaker, definitely down to the
(00:48):
last couple patches of snow.
There's a few of them in thecreek that take, you know,
another month to melt.
They're just in a shady areaand quite deep, if I'm going to
be honest with you.
So it's really cool to seeBunsen play in the snow and he
gets to come with Bernoulli andBeaker on these walks Because
it's been months, it's been along time where Bunsen's been on
(01:12):
light activity and then beforethat, house arrest.
So we'll see how it goes.
We're going to take things easyand see how he does.
So far, so good, all right.
On the show this week we got acouple of good science news
items.
One is pretty topical, actuallythey're both really topical,
they're both been in the news.
One definitely a touchy subject.
(01:32):
That's about autism and therising autism rates.
What's that from?
Why is that happening?
We're going to look at ascience based approach to answer
that.
And the other science news itemis another genetic engineering
story that was everywhere.
It was a company, the same onethat did the woolly mammoth
(01:53):
mouse, did a dire wolf.
So Game of Thrones fans, thisone's for you.
And in pet science there was anew study that looked at over a
thousand puppies and found outthere's a lot of things in
common between how a puppy actedversus the adult and how you
could tailor training with that.
Okay, on with the show.
(02:13):
There's no time like ScienceTime.
This week in science news let'sbreak down the timely
discussion about autism, whichdefinitely can be touchy subject
, and it was kicked off by inthe United States, who was very
concerned with the rise ofautism and was going at it in a
(02:35):
less than scientific manner.
So what Chris and I are goingto do is we're just going to
talk about what the experts whostudy autism are saying, and of
course, it's backed up byvarious studies.
We'll have some links to themin our show notes, but it is
definitely a touchy subject,because I'm sure you've taught
kids who have autism, chris.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Yeah, for sure.
And actually in the first yearof my teaching career, I taught
a student with severe autism andI actually learned a lot about
how to support a student who wasneurodivergent, but also
neurodivergent in quite adifferent way, because I had not
(03:18):
previously been exposed to astudent or a person with autism,
and it was really an amazingexperience.
I work closely with hiseducational assistant and he had
a successful year in gradeeight.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
And the same thing that goes for me.
I've had students who've hadmore serious or more severe
forms of autism to students whoyou wouldn't even really know
had autism but were diagnosed ashaving autism.
And things have changed latelybecause autism is now a spectrum
as opposed to a bunch ofdifferent things like Asperger's
(03:57):
.
Do you remember when Asperger'swas a thing?
But now Asperger's is rolledinto the autism umbrella.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Yeah, Asperger's is no longer a diagnosis.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Autism is considered a spectrum of neurological
differences, so taking whateveryou want to consider average,
and then it is differences fromthat average with your brain and
how you perceive things.
You can be nonverbal and, yes,intellectually disabled to very
(04:27):
mildly affected with things likesensory sensitivities.
And it's clear to note that,according to all of the experts
who do work with autism, thereis no single true version of
autism.
I want to say my firstexperience of somebody with
autism was from the movie Rainman.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Oh, yes, yes, I saw that movie too.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Yeah, and that's just what I thought people with
autism were like.
They were very particular aboutthings.
They were geniuses at math.
Very naive of me as a youngperson, but of course, I grew up
in a small community notknowing anybody around me with
autism.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
And at that time were people called savants.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Yeah, they were called savants and generally
they weren't in public school.
You just didn't see them.
They went to a different school, they went to a different
facility, so I didn't see them.
It's not a disorder that can becured and individuals with
(05:34):
autism are more and more seeingit as part of their identity and
some individuals and somefamilies are seriously affected
because, on the much moredisabling side, folks with
autism can absolutely beextremely violent, nonverbal and
have to be institutionalized orrequire help the rest of their
life.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Recently in the news, the CDC published a morbidity
and mortality weekly report andin that report it showed an
increase of children age eightwho were diagnosed with autism
as of 2022, the statistic is onein 31 US children and that's an
(06:15):
increase from one in 36 in 2020and one in 150 in 2000.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
So, in going against a lot of the misinformation out
in the news in the last coupleweeks, autism has very strong
genetic components.
About 80% of the autistic casesare linked to inherited genetic
variations, so meaning that yougot some of the genetic
variations from your parents andthat has led to your autism
(06:46):
diagnosis.
10 to 15% of that is veryunknown and is extremely
complicated.
We're going to get to thatlater.
More than 200 genes have beenlinked to autism, especially
those in early brain development, and again, genetics alone
don't explain everything.
There is a whole host of gooddata that show environmental
(07:10):
interactions play a role, butit's not one thing, it is many
things and there are riskfactors that increase the
chances of an autism diagnosis,and they're varied and they're
vast.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
It's so complicated you can't just point your finger
at this is what causes it.
It's such a super complexcondition and identifying the
root cause is super complex aswell.
They looked at some early braindevelopment risk factors, such
as infections during pregnancy,so getting rubella or taking
(07:50):
certain medications, valproicacid.
They looked if maternal obesitywas a factor.
Air pollution, even asthma andsmoking could trigger it, even
asthma and smoking could triggerit.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yeah, Now these, Chris.
These are all factors thataffect early brain development.
They are not necessarily alllinked to autism, but it is an
early brain development wherethose genes perhaps are turned
on and off for autism.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
And they were looking at premature births as well.
Babies are surviving it earlierand earlier as they were born
prematurely, and they're alsolooking at that factor as well.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Again some misinformation that's out there
that doesn't seem to go away isthat vaccines cause autism.
That has been debunked over andover again, as well as some
other things that I haven'theard of before, like
emotionally distant parenting,ultrasounds and antidepressants.
Those have been debunked ascauses or links to autism, with
(08:58):
all of those different riskfactors.
What does the expert say, chris?
Why are these rates rising fromwhen you and I, just before we
started teaching, until lastyear?
Speaker 2 (09:11):
I alluded to it a little bit earlier, but it's
improved awareness of autism andbetter detection and diagnosis,
as well as screening programsthat are in the medical field,
in the education field, and sohaving that broader diagnostic
criteria does play a part.
(09:31):
And, like I mentioned, thereare the higher survival rates of
preterm babies and,interestingly, rates could be
rising because of older parentalage, especially with fathers.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Interesting Is Down syndrome women right.
The older the woman, the rateof Down syndrome goes up.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
So they're believing it ties into mutations in
chromosomes and they're alsofinding co-diagnosis with other
conditions.
So, looking at that broaderdiagnostic criteria, you might
be diagnosed with autism as wellas another condition.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
In the past, you just had one thing.
Now, maybe, due to thedifferent ways it's diagnosed,
you have multiple things.
Can autism be prevented?
Can you do things to preventautism?
And the answer is not.
Really.
It's so complicated, with ahuge percentage of it related to
genetics and another smallerpercent related to things we
(10:36):
don't know.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
A vast array of things that increase risk to
have an autism diagnosis, and ifyou pick one thing, then you're
missing the big picture,because, as you mentioned, chris
, what's what the main thing weshould focus on is education,
and early intervention, earlyintervention, improved services
(10:58):
and supports for people withautism and calling it a disorder
or saying we need to preventautism is harmful and offensive
and actually hurtful to theautistic community, because they
are members of our human familyand we should support them, not
ostracize them I think my lasttwo cents, chris, is it's just
(11:22):
because you live in a placewhere, um, the rates of autism
are low doesn't necessarily meanthat people in your area aren't
getting autism.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
A good example of this is in the united states.
They tested 16 differentlocations and there was way more
per thousand people beingdiagnosed with autism in
California than, say, texas.
But the big reason why wasthere was way better screening
and early intervention inCalifornia as opposed to Texas.
(11:53):
So when you test for things andyou screen for things, you're
going to find them.
If you don't want anybody tohave autism, never, ever screen
or never test for it.
But if you don't do that, thenyou're missing out on the
ability to have earlyintervention for the kids that
need it.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
And support.
And they did find generallythat boys are still diagnosed
more often than girls, but girlstheir rate is increasing too.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Because they weren't looked at.
That's another thing I'vetalked about this years ago on
the podcast, like why do girlsnot get diagnosed with autism?
And it's because they weren'ttested or screened for it.
All right, so hopefully,hopefully, this is good
information for everybody.
We are a science-based podcastand sometimes there's some
really nasty misinformation outthere that we like to try to
(12:44):
correct in our own little way.
If you're interested, I'll havesome links in our show notes so
you can learn more yourself.
That's our first science newsitem today.
Let's move on to the second one, the second science news item.
I think I could sum up with mylove for a certain House in Game
of Thrones.
Now, you did not like Game ofThrones.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Jason.
It was full of treachery andbackstabbing and I cannot handle
that at all.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
I know I love the books for as much as you could
love books with heartbreak andtreachery, and I love the TV
show up until the last season.
Amazing work taking the booksand turning them into TV.
And if you don't know, in theGame of Thrones there's these
different houses, separated bygeographical region, and they
(13:35):
have a sigil which is like acrest, a family crest, with a
family saying.
And I identified immediatelywith one house in Game of
Thrones, probably because I'm aCanadian living way up north,
which they always reference.
And what house do you thinkthat was Chris?
Speaker 2 (13:53):
That was the house with Ned.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
House Stark.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
House Stark yeah, that was House Stark.
And boy, that spoiler alert.
It didn't go well for Ned and Iwas like what, why did that
happen?
And then it just went downhillfrom there.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Anyways, the sigil of the Stark family is the
Direwolf, and in the TV show, inthe book, all of the Stark
children get a Direwolf.
Direwolves are, of course.
We don't have them living, atleast until lately.
They're an extinct giant wolfthat roamed North America and
Eurasia tens of thousands ofyears ago, but they're gone now.
(14:31):
But as of April 7th, threegenetically engineered pups
named Romulus, remus andKhaleesi have come back into the
world with dire wolf genetics.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Now the company behind the world's first
de-extinction actually hadsomething sensational in the
news not too long ago with thelittle woolly mice, the woolly
mammoth mice.
So, the little furry, amazingFabio hair mice.
(15:07):
Yeah, so these pups, khaleesi,romulus and Remus, were designed
to have physical traits thatwere similar to dire wolves, so
snowy white fur and a muscularbuild and large skulls and a
distinct ear shape.
And of course, the media jumpedin and dubbed them, or named
(15:30):
them scientifically, seismicthat's a very clickbaity title
and some scientists pushed back,saying you know what that claim
is exaggerated or misleading,back saying you know what that
claim is exaggerated ormisleading.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Now, maybe why it's misleading is the company
Colossal did not reconstruct ina complete dire wolf genome.
They use the gray wolf genomewhich is alive today as a
template and they modified itbased on ancient DNA that they
acquired from two dire wolfspecimens.
That's a old tooth found inOhio, a 13,000 year old tooth
and a 72,000 year old inner earbone found in Idaho.
(16:08):
All right, Now that ancient DNAis pretty degraded and messed
up.
If you think of a piece ofpaper, this DNA looks like
confetti.
So they targeted 20 gene edits,that's it, and they used a gene
modified for coat color andother edits affected the gray
(16:29):
wolf's body size, face and earshape.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
It was super cool because they used a
supercomputer to compare and dothe reconstruction of the
confettified DNA.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
I feel like this is exactly what happened in the
plot of Jurassic Park is theyhad bad DNA from dinosaur, dna
from mosquitoes and amber, andthen their supercomputer filled
in the blanks with DNA fromreptiles.
Today, I feel like there's acautionary tale that we've all
(17:03):
lived through watching thosemovies and reading those books.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Jeff Goldblum.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Yeah, shirtless Jeff Goldblum.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Yeah, just because we can doesn't mean that we should
.
They took the nuclei from theiredited cells and they inserted
that nuclei into dog egg cellsthat they had taken the nuclei
out of.
So they had denucleated dog eggcells that they put in the
(17:32):
edited cells, the nucleus fromthe edited cells, and then they
implanted those embryos intosurrogate hounds and the pups
then grew inside the mother andthey were delivered via
C-section.
Now the twins, the males,romulus and Remus, were born in
October and Khaleesi, the singlefemale, was born four months
(17:55):
later.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
All right, so let's put our skepticism hats on, as
we always like to do.
Some scientists and critics ofthis have argued that these pups
are just not true direwolves.
They're modified gray wolvesand of course the company has
accounted for that, saying theirgoal was never to clone them
but to recreate key traits.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Now the science of this is interesting because it
seems to be that dire wolves maybe more closely related to
modern wolves than previouslythought we need to wait until
the preprint study comes outthat is suggesting that dire
wolves may be more closelyrelated to modern wolves,
because it hasn't been peerreviewed yet.
But past research that you'retalking about said that dire
wolves diverged from othercanids 6 million years ago.
(18:44):
So it looks like maybe theremight be some discrepancy in the
research here Now, previouslythat the past research looked at
those original samples but whencolossal took them, they
reanalyze those two originalsamples to create a higher
(19:06):
quality dire wolf genome map.
So it's very interesting and wewill have to wait until that
study is the one that's inpreprint is peer reviewed and
published, if it ever is yeah,because I'm sure some critics,
some science critics, would likea crack at peer reviewing it.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
I think the conclusion is very similar to
what we talked about with thewoolly mouse.
There's pros, people whosupport this, because this
technology can be applied toother animals that may be going
endangered, to increase theirgenetic diversity and recover
the species.
And critics are like no, thisis just wild genetic tampering,
(19:51):
making zoo-like novelties forpeople to gawk at.
We'll leave that up foreverybody listening to decide.
But I don't know.
I'm pretty happy with thecanids we have in our house.
I don't think we need direwolves.
We've got our own couch wolvesin our house.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
They are keeping the pups under wraps Because even
with the woolly mice mammoth,the woolly mammoth mouse, there
were people who got too closefor comfort.
So they do have the pups housedon an 800 hectare preserve in
we're not sure where, but theyhave 10 full-time caretakers and
(20:31):
there's no current plans forpublic access, no current plans
for breeding the animals or nocurrent plans for a Jurassic
Park style attraction.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
As soon as I start seeing tickets for sale to the
ultra wealthy come see direwolves and woolly mammoths
that's when I'm going to bereally concerned.
So there you go.
If you love Game of Thrones andyou loved House Stark and those
dire wolves, this science newsitem is for you.
That's science news for thisweek.
This week in pet science, weget to talk about puppies.
(21:04):
Chris, you got to see somepuppies at like.
What was it?
Bluegrass, something or other?
What was it?
You got to see some puppies.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
I went to Bluegrass Odd Farms and they had a petting
zoo which had animals that werenot puppies, but then they also
had a rescue organization thereand I have never seen so many
little puppies in my life and avariety of puppies, and they
were so cute and I took littleRaffy and we went and we had a
great day hanging out there.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Adam was very happy he got to hold the puppy.
He said they were super cute,and they are.
It's a good thing I didn't go.
We might have four dogs, butthis study is all about puppy
cognition and how puppycognition predicts adult
behavior.
We've talked before about how apuppy thinks when it's little
(21:57):
is a good indication of how youcan train the dog and how well
behaved the dog becomes as anadult.
There's a bunch of traits thatpuppies have, like impulsivity,
response to gestures andreaction to different tasks that
may or may not be solvable.
This study will look at SmartDog, which is a method of
(22:18):
training dogs with caninecognition testing, and the puppy
testing size was enormous.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Yeah, they looked at over 1,400 puppies between three
to seven months old and theytasked the puppies with being
able to follow pointing gesturesto find treats and we do that
with our dogs, like the pointthere, our dogs really know the
point.
And then attempting unsolvablepuzzles was the other one, and
another task included retrievingtreats from a clear cylinder
(22:49):
with a back opening and thepurpose was to measure the
impulse control of the puppy,their social cognition and their
problem-solving skills.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Dogs that attempt those impossible-to-solve
puzzles and keep at it.
They're ones that really stickwith training.
I've talked about that yearsago on the Science Podcast.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Exactly, and so they did some follow-up testing,
which I think is important.
They looked at 99 dogs thatwere retested as adults from,
and those adults were aged fromone to eight years, and many of
the traits remain stable frompuppyhood into adulthood.
So the traits that wereparticularly consistent when
(23:32):
they were first measured at sixto seven months old stayed
consistent when the dogs wereadults.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
That's fun.
So some key correlations fromthe study through surveys found
that puppies that were good atfollowing pointing gestures grew
up to be much more trainableand obedient, and puppies with
better impulse control were alot calmer as adults.
Finally, puppies that show fearor dependency towards testers
(24:04):
were a lot more adverse tostrangers as adults.
What was Bernoulli as a puppy?
He could follow a point.
He was really easy to train forthe most part as a puppy he's
pretty smart.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Yeah, but I'm just trying to think back to him as a
puppy when we were doing thetraining, and partly we didn't
do all the training necessarilyourselves, we did reinforcement
of the training, but we did havehim trained at Waggles.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Yes, they did training there and we did
training at home, which wasgreat, at Waggles.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Yes, they did training there and we did
training at home, which wasgreat.
Yeah, it allowed him to fasttrack up to his level three.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Yeah, bunsen was just a dream to train that guy.
Bunsen is our rock star, heloves school.
We always said that, oh boy,it's school, he just loves
school.
So there you go.
Okay, let's move intoimplications, anyway.
So, aside from Bernoulli andBunsen and Beaker, what are some
(25:03):
of the training implications inthe study?
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Well, they found that early cognitive traits can help
guide making customizedtraining plans for dogs.
So if you have a puppy that isaverse to strangers, by building
self-confidence throughpositive experiences and
training, success has an impact.
As well as encouraginginitiative while reinforcing
good behavior and understandingthe puppy cognition, because it
(25:31):
seems to stay, it helps tailortraining program training
methods to individual dogs andif you have supportive early
training, that could reducesocial anxiety in less confident
dogs.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Yeah, and that's where we I don't know if we
failed Beaker, but we justdidn't do a good job with Beaker
during COVID was the earlytraining Cause it was on, it was
off, it was on, it was off.
So she became fearful of otherdogs not all dogs, but she was
fearful of other dogs.
And then just lately, in thelast four months, we've gotten a
(26:11):
lot of support from Waggles andBeaker has really come out of
her shell.
So it's not too late to teach adog new tricks is what we're
finding with Beaker.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
That is absolutely true In the study, though they
did have some limitations and aplan for future research.
So there was breed bias,because they looked mostly at
Border Collies, labradorRetrievers and German Shepherds
and, as we know, those are likehighly trainable dogs, highly
intelligent dogs that love towork.
(26:40):
So there could be some breedbias.
So they want to look at maybeis the same implications true
for rescue dogs, and they alsofound that the sample that they
looked at was a high proportionof dogs from breeders as opposed
to rescues, and so therecommendation is to expand and
(27:04):
include rescue dogs and lesstraditionally trainable breeds.
Like some dogs, they are likeoh, you have a treat, I do not
care.
Like a husky.
They're like you have nicewords for me, nope.
And then also, if possible,getting a larger sample size for
future studies.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
I think the more we learn about how to train dogs
from a science-based approach isreally important, rather than
throwing spaghetti at the walland not knowing why some things
stick.
This also supports lifelongwell-being for dogs, because
we're training them for theirlife, not for certain tasks.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Yeah, and like I love dogs that get to live their
best life.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
And we're really seeing that with Beaker right
she is.
I think she's living her bestlife now.
I think before this she had avery good life, but now she's
living her best life becauseshe's getting along with dogs.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Yeah, only because it's interesting.
If you watch her, she is notconfident.
But then she puffs up becauseshe wants to be confident and
it's just sending mixed signalsto other dogs and they're like I
don't really get you, what areyou doing?
Or what is going on?
And then throw in COVID andresource protecting and then
(28:17):
also the fact that she isrelentless at trying to chase
things if they're blowing in thewind like a leaf.
She's got some.
She's got some things to workon, but you know what we all do.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Like I said, the last four months have been really
cool to see her blossom and havedog friends and get along with
everybody at daycare all daylong, which is great.
Okay, everybody, that's PetScience for this week.
That's it for this week's show.
Thanks for coming back weekafter week to listen to us, and
a special thanks again to thetop tiers of our Paw Pack, the
(28:49):
Patreon community that we haveto support us.
If you want to join, check outthe link in the show notes.
Take it away, chris.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Amelia Fetig.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Rhi Oda.
Carol out the link in the shownotes.
Take it away, Chris, Forscience, empathy and cuteness.
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