September 26, 2025 • 19 mins
After a two-week hiatus dealing with shipping challenges and postal strikes, Jason and Chris return with exciting scientific breakthroughs and heartwarming pet insights. Their absence was filled with stuffy reshipping adventures and a memorable Comic-Con appearance with their super-dog companions.
The episode features a remarkable development in Huntington's disease treatment – a devastating neurodegenerative condition affecting 7 in 100,000 people worldwide. A pioneering gene therapy trial using microRNA delivered via viral vectors directly to the brain has shown unprecedented success in slowing disease progression. Patients receiving the highest dose demonstrated 75% less decline in cognitive and motor symptoms compared to untreated individuals. While invasive and still pending regulatory approval, this breakthrough offers genuine hope for patients and families who've endured decades of despair. Beyond Huntington's, this approach could potentially revolutionize treatments for other neurodegenerative diseases like Parkinson's.
The pet science segment reveals fascinating research about canine cognition, particularly how "gifted" dogs mentally categorize toys by function rather than appearance. Border collies demonstrated an ability to classify toys based solely on how they're used in play – whether for throwing or tugging – without relying on verbal cues. This suggests dogs possess cognitive flexibility comparable to human toddlers, understanding not just words but concepts. The study highlights how our canine companions don't merely memorize but actually comprehend and apply knowledge functionally, raising profound questions about their cognitive abilities.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:09):
Hello, science enthusiasts.
I'm Jason Zakowski.
SPEAKER_01 (00:12):
And I'm Chris Zakkowski.
SPEAKER_00 (00:14):
We're the pet parents of Bunsen, Beaker,
Bernoulli, and Ginger.
SPEAKER_01 (00:18):
The science animals on social media.
If you love science and you lovepets, you've come to the right
spot.
So put on your safety glassesand hold on to your tail.
SPEAKER_00 (00:29):
This is the Science Podcast.
Hi everybody, and welcome backto the Science Podcast.
We hope you're happy and healthyout there.
This is episode 27 of seasonseven.
Long time no talk, Chris.
We've been away from this fortwo weeks.
SPEAKER_01 (00:46):
It's been a while.
We've been super busy doingother things like reshipments,
and we've been working aroundthe clock.
SPEAKER_00 (00:55):
Yeah, so we've spoken about this on social
media, but to make a long storyshort, the Bernoulli stuffies
that we had this awesomepre-sale for, and they arrived
in August, and we shipped themall away on my birthday or the
day after, and a whole bunch ofthem got rejected and customs in
the states.
We don't know why.
We followed all the rules andlike 140 of them came back.
(01:16):
So we had to catalog andspreadsheet and then resend them
and do the tariffs and the newshipping to the states.
We wanted everybody to get theirstuffy.
And yes, Chris is right.
We've been basically workingevery evening for a couple
weeks, and the podcast had to goon the back burner.
And the irony is, Chris, I washeading to the post office
(01:38):
yesterday to drop off theremaining stuffies.
And guess what happened?
All across Canada.
SPEAKER_01 (01:44):
You called me about this, and you said you're not
going to believe it.
And I said, What?
And you said Canada Post hasgone on strike.
SPEAKER_00 (01:53):
We were very frustrated when it happened, but
you and I are very stubborn,hardworking people, and we
figured out a solution to it.
And everybody was very actuallyvery gracious about waiting.
So some folks are gonna have towait a little bit longer because
our entire national post systemis now on strike.
So I can't even deliveranything, anyways.
That's out of our hands.
SPEAKER_01 (02:13):
Out of our hands, out of our controls.
You always say there's nothingfor it.
SPEAKER_00 (02:17):
There's nothing for it.
There's nothing we've had areally good couple of weeks with
the dogs, and uh and we haven'treally had pet chat to talk
about it.
And this isn't really the placeto talk about all the fun stuff
we've done with them.
But just real quick, we were atComic-Con on Saturday, and that
was an amazing experience.
SPEAKER_01 (02:34):
It sure was.
The dogs did so great.
They went as super dogs,Superman and Supergirl, and it
was a lot of fun.
We met some celebrities and madesome memories and made our fans
very happy.
SPEAKER_00 (02:47):
Yeah, it was an awesome time.
Okay, what's on the show thisweek?
In Science News, there was areally big story about
Huntington's disease, and Ithought we would sink our teeth
into that.
And in Pet Science, a reallycute study about I guess they're
gifted dogs and how they processlanguage.
I don't know, I don't know ifour dogs would be considered
(03:09):
gifted.
We're talking about those bordercollies that know hundreds of
words.
I don't know if our dogs wouldbe considered gifted.
They're smart.
I don't know, I don't know ifthey'd be in immense quality,
though.
SPEAKER_01 (03:22):
No.
But although I was veryimpressed that you can say find
your leash, and Bernoulli doesit.
SPEAKER_00 (03:29):
Yeah.
He's way smarter than he looks.
He just looks like a happy lug.
All right, on with the showbecause there's no time like
Science Time.
This week in Science News, let'stalk about Huntington's disease.
Now, you've probably heard ofthat before, and it's been a hot
minute since I've had to explainto students what Huntington's
(03:53):
disease is, but it's a mutationin the Huntington gene, and the
mutation leads to an abnormallylong protein that becomes toxic.
It's autosomal dominant.
So that means a child ofsomebody with Huntington's
disease has a 50% chance ofinheriting.
So it is extremely genetic.
(04:15):
Now, some of the symptomsinvolve involuntary movements.
Your muscles get stiff and youhave difficulty with voluntary
movements.
You have trouble speaking,swallowing, and have
coordination issues.
And it's progressive.
You have cognitive decline withpsychiatric symptoms.
So the disease is fatal, whichis really sad, and currently has
(04:38):
no cure.
And the kicker to it is this isthe thing that I have to explain
to students because they'realways like, if you're if you
have Huntington's disease, whydon't you just choose not to
have kids?
Because it's a flip of a coin topass it on.
And the problem is patientsdevelop the symptoms in
mid-adulthood.
You probably have started afamily by the time you're
(05:01):
diagnosed with it.
And then it's a very progressivedisability and an early death.
About seven in 100,000 peoplesuffer from Huntingdon's
disease.
SPEAKER_01 (05:11):
But Jason, there's been an experimental gene
therapy trial, and it's prettymuch a breakthrough
announcement.
On September 24th, so veryrecently, some results from a
small clinical trial of genetherapy were announced.
And you know what?
It generated some excitement andsome hope.
Since, as you said, Huntington'sdisease usually carries only
(05:35):
grim news.
Yeah, it's bad.
It's bad news.
So how the therapy works is thetherapy uses microRNA, which are
tiny RNA fragments that actuallyprevent the Huntington protein
from forming.
And these RNA molecules weredelivered using a viral vector,
(05:55):
which was injected directly intothe brain, which is different
than the previous methods thatthey use to maybe combat or
study Huntington's disease.
And so what happens is thevirus, in quotations, infects
the neurons and reprograms themto continuously produce microRNA
(06:17):
that blocks that tuck that toxicHuntington production.
So preventing that long proteinfrom forming.
And as I said, this approach isdifferent from earlier trials
because the RNA was injectedinto the cerebrospinal fluid,
(06:37):
which actually failed to reachcritical areas of the brain.
unknown (06:42):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (06:42):
And you had mentioned that it's a viral
vector.
So just quickly, if that term isconfusing to you, that's
something that scientists haveborrowed from viruses, and it
delivers genetic material intocells.
Remember, viruses are super goodat sneaking their genetic
instructions into other cells.
And if we can modify them tocarry instructions instead of
(07:03):
good instructions instead ofharmful ones, those instructions
can get it's almost like aheist.
Like they can ocean eleventhemselves through the cell
membrane and into the main partof the cell.
And that's what you mentioned.
They're continuously producingthose RNA blockers.
The trial details areinteresting.
It's a very small study of 17people with early Huntington
(07:25):
symptoms.
The surgery was no joke.
It lasted 12 to 18 hours.
And the viral vectoral payloadwas injected into three
different brain sites perhemisphere.
Of those 17, 12 patients weremonitored for 36 months, and
they gave them different teststo determine their progression
of disease, like motor control,their attention, their memory,
(07:48):
and how well they did at dailylife skills.
And Chris, the results were verycool.
SPEAKER_01 (07:53):
They were very cool.
So we would like to say it was asmall sample study, but it does
show promise because it isn't acure, but the disease
progression was slowed.
And patients on the highest doseshowed about a 75% less decline
in cognitive and motor symptomscompared to the untreated
(08:14):
patients.
And some patient symptomsactually appeared to stabilize.
So sharing the stories, onepatient who was previously
unable to work actually returnedto his IT job a year after going
through therapy.
And others that were expected tobe wheelchair bound were still
(08:36):
walking after three years, whichis incredible.
SPEAKER_00 (08:39):
Yeah, so this is a really good news study.
Yeah, this is such a good newsstudy.
Huntington's disease is justdevastating.
SPEAKER_01 (08:48):
Yeah, Jason, for sure.
There were some limitations anddefinite challenges to the
method that they used.
Of course, the limitation is thevery small trial, trial size of
17 patients, and their resultsactually are not yet peer
reviewed or published.
And you mentioned the brainsurgery being no joke.
It was invasive.
(09:09):
It's invasive brain surgery.
And unfortunately, treatmentwill likely be extremely
expensive because each dose wascustom made and the regulatory
approval is still pending.
It hasn't been given a rubberstamp.
But there's some broaderimplications that are positive
because this could inspiresimilar approaches for other
(09:33):
neurodegenerative diseases likeParkinson's and other viral
vector therapies that arealready approved for rare
disorders.
MicroRNA delivery is consideredrelatively easy to adapt to
these other conditions.
SPEAKER_00 (09:47):
So the this could be the low-hanging fruit to nail
off some of those otherdegenerative diseases, slowing
their, slowing the decline ofpeople that have them.
SPEAKER_01 (09:57):
Yeah, and it gives hope.
Patients and their families didexpress hope after having
decades of despair.
And that's what's still inPandora's box.
SPEAKER_00 (10:08):
We've had a hard week, and the news out there
sometimes isn't good.
This is definitely a good newsstory.
That's science news for thisweek.
This weekend, pet science.
Let's talk about some reallysmart dogs and how they process
language.
How many words do you thinkBernoulli, Bunsen, and Beaker
know?
What do they know a lot ofwords?
(10:29):
I think they do.
SPEAKER_01 (10:30):
I think they do.
I think they know the keywordslike walk and water and food and
bathroom and outside and want togo on the deck, and I'm gonna
spray you with water, and Bunsenwill run away.
Because I was just thinkingtoday they're really muddy.
(10:52):
When you tell them in advance,some of them they're like, I
don't want to really really wantto do that.
SPEAKER_00 (10:56):
The creek is really muddy.
I don't know which of the threeof them knows the most words.
I want to say Bernoulli,honestly.
Bernoulli may know the mostwords of the three.
SPEAKER_01 (11:09):
He might.
I don't know.
They all we just talk to themand we play with them.
And you know what?
I think that might be becauseBernoulli is the most
interactive with toys.
Whereas Beaker and Bunsen willjust leave them.
Like Bunsen's like, I have zerointerest in that until I do, but
that's that interest is few andfar between.
(11:31):
And Beaker likes a few selecttoys, but Bernoulli actually
engages in play.
And he's really quite funny.
When he was getting picked upfrom Doggy Daycare, they had a
basket of free toys.
And once he was told once thathe could have some of these free
toys, he took one every day.
And I hated that.
(11:51):
He had one every day and he justloved it.
So now you go pick him up andthey have a table full of baby
clothes because one of thetrainers there, she's having a
baby.
So they have this baby draw forguess the weight, all that
stuff, and these wonderfulclothes that are on the table.
You know what?
Bernoulli doesn't differentiatebetween those toys that were
(12:12):
free for the taking and thelittle baby onesie that he
definitely took the other day.
And I was like, oh no.
It was funny, but also not.
SPEAKER_00 (12:22):
That's a Bernoulli thing.
SPEAKER_01 (12:23):
Such a Bernoulli thing.
And then I got it away from him,and then he went back to the
table and got a different one.
So it was a thing.
SPEAKER_00 (12:30):
He he is he's crafty.
He is he's into things, yeah.
All right, let's get to thestudy.
This study shows that some dogsactually mentally label toys
based on how they're used inplay, so they sort them by
function, not just by appearanceor verbal cues.
And this study comes fromcurrent biology, really
(12:52):
recently, September 18th.
Now, this was sparked by anobservation.
A dog in another studycategorize toys into groups like
ball, rope, and ring.
And remarkably, the dog couldalso classify toys she's net
she'd never seen before intothose groups.
So the researchers asked thencan dogs also categorize toys
(13:15):
strictly by function rather thanwhat they look like.
SPEAKER_01 (13:20):
Of course, you mentioned the study participants
were the gifted word learnerdogs, mostly border collies.
They're so smart, and they havean unusually large vocabulary of
toys that they use that they'velearned naturally at home.
Because I think the bordercollies play with their toys and
they really enjoy that.
(13:41):
They're like fun and they'relike, please play with me,
otherwise, I'm going to eat yourdrywall.
SPEAKER_00 (13:45):
Yeah, they need a job and they need mental
stimulation.
SPEAKER_01 (13:48):
Um, exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (13:49):
Bunsen and Bernoulli just need the couch, like they
just need to go to sleep, theyjust power down.
SPEAKER_01 (13:55):
They do, but I think we would be very busy with a
border collie.
Um, we would be over the top.
It would be what?
Oh my goodness.
Eleven dogs were recruited forthis study, and then seven
completed the project.
There was a few there thatdidn't make the cut.
And I know, and it was fun.
The experiment was conducted indogs' home environments, and
(14:17):
that ensure and that ensurednatural play.
And so the first thing that theydid was functional training.
So the owners played eitherthrow or fetch or pull, like a
tug-of-board game, with theirdogs, um, using plushies,
squeakers, ropes, a variety oftoys.
(14:37):
And then each toy was randomlyassigned to one category, so
like the throw category or thepull category, regardless of its
physical traits.
And then owners named theactivity out loud, right?
Giving a name to it, like throwor pull, while they played.
And then in the next step, theytested with novel toys, so the
(14:58):
toys that dogs had not seenbefore, by introducing those new
toys and playing either fetch ortug with those toys, but they
did not name the activityallowed.
And so the dogs had to rely onlyon the experience of the
function, not the verbal or thevisual cues.
SPEAKER_00 (15:18):
And then this new toy, like the new toy, they just
played tug with it, and the dogjust had to know, oh, this is a
tug toy, and they never weretold.
SPEAKER_01 (15:26):
And then step three, or the last part of the study,
was owners were they said, butand then lastly, step three was
a retrieval task where ownersasked their dogs, hey, bring me
a throw or bring me a pull froma pile of old and new toys.
And the test would be would dogsapply the functional category to
(15:48):
the toys they had never heardlabeled before.
So would they realize, oh, thatwas a new toy, and I played tug
with it?
SPEAKER_00 (15:58):
It's a very human thing, right?
If you get a bunch ofkindergartner kids together and
you're like, these are scissorsand they cut, and then you give
them something that looks likescissors, I'm sure they'd be
able to classify them, right?
That's a human thing that humansare really good at doing is
classifying a bunch of stufftogether as function.
So here come the results, Chris.
(16:18):
The dogs did great.
Out of 48 trials, dogs selectedthe correct novel toy an average
of 31 times.
And the mistakes mostly happenedwhen dogs grabbed an old toy
they had already heard labeled.
Now that's not a hundredpercent.
31 out of 40 48 is about a 65%rate that's much higher than a
(16:41):
guess.
And the findings were enough toshow that dogs generalize
function categories fromfamiliar toys to new ones
without verbal instruction.
Very cool.
SPEAKER_01 (16:52):
So it's a significant study though, Jay,
because it's pretty novel.
Previous studies relied heavilyon trained captive animals,
whereas this one was testingcategorization by function in
the natural home setting with apet dog versus a heavily trained
captive animal.
And it carefully, the studyactually carefully ruled out
(17:12):
reliance on physical features orother cues, and they actually
assessed the dog's cognitivelevel.
So the dog's skill was comparedto that of a human toddler.
Aww.
I know.
So that suggests dogs don't justmemorize words, but they can use
them in a flexible functionalway.
SPEAKER_00 (17:29):
That's cute.
I've heard that so many we'vedone a lot of dog studies, and
that's the capacity that yourdogs have.
They're a toddler, they're ababy, not a baby, but they're a
toddler.
Yeah, and toddlers are toddlerswill surprise you with what they
know, but they're not an adult.
So you that's maybe that's whywe love them so much.
(17:51):
Because toddlers are a lot offun, but they're a lot of work
too.
SPEAKER_01 (17:56):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (17:56):
I was never more tired.
I keep saying this.
I was never more tired than whenAdam was a toddler, but he was
also a lot of fun.
Future studies may explore othercategories beyond throw and
pull.
Maybe what's another category offrisbee?
I don't have no idea.
I guess they'll have to come upwith other categories.
(18:17):
And it raises a broader questionabout how dogs recognize,
remember, and infer.
And these are all signs ofcomplex cognition.
We know dogs are smart, and Iguess we're just finding out
that they're as smart as somehumans.
If the humans were toddlers.
Alright, that's Pet Science forthis week.
That's it for this week's show.
(18:38):
Thanks for coming back weekafter week to listen to the
science podcast.
And a shout out to all the topdogs.
That's the top tier of ourPatreon community, The Popack.
You can sign up in our shownotes.
All right, Chris, let's hearthose names that are part of the
top dogs.
SPEAKER_01 (18:53):
Amelia Fettig, Re Oda, Carol Haino, Jennifer
Challenge, Linnea Janet, KarenCronister, Vicky Oteiro, Christy
Walker, Sarah Bram, Wendy,Diane, Mason and Luke, Helen
Chin, Elizabeth Bourgeois,Marianne McNally, Katherine
Jordan, Shelly Smith, LauraSteffenson, Tracy Leinbaugh,
(19:16):
Anne Uchida, Heather Burbach,Kelly, Tracy Halbert, Ben
Rather, Debbie Anderson, SandyBrimer, Mary Rader, Bianca Hyde,
Andrew Lynn, Brenda Clark,Brianne Hawes, Peggy McKeel,
Holly Birch, Kathy Zirker, SusanWagner, and Liz Button.
SPEAKER_00 (19:35):
For science, empathy, and cuteness.
Hello, science enthusiasts.
I'm Jason Zakowski.
SPEAKER_01 (00:12):
And I'm Chris Zakkowski.
SPEAKER_00 (00:14):
We're the pet parents of Bunsen, Beaker,
Bernoulli, and Ginger.
SPEAKER_01 (00:18):
The science animals on social media.
If you love science and you lovepets, you've come to the right
spot.
So put on your safety glassesand hold on to your tail.
SPEAKER_00 (00:29):
This is the Science Podcast.
Hi everybody, and welcome backto the Science Podcast.
We hope you're happy and healthyout there.
This is episode 27 of seasonseven.
Long time no talk, Chris.
We've been away from this fortwo weeks.
SPEAKER_01 (00:46):
It's been a while.
We've been super busy doingother things like reshipments,
and we've been working aroundthe clock.
SPEAKER_00 (00:55):
Yeah, so we've spoken about this on social
media, but to make a long storyshort, the Bernoulli stuffies
that we had this awesomepre-sale for, and they arrived
in August, and we shipped themall away on my birthday or the
day after, and a whole bunch ofthem got rejected and customs in
the states.
We don't know why.
We followed all the rules andlike 140 of them came back.
(01:16):
So we had to catalog andspreadsheet and then resend them
and do the tariffs and the newshipping to the states.
We wanted everybody to get theirstuffy.
And yes, Chris is right.
We've been basically workingevery evening for a couple
weeks, and the podcast had to goon the back burner.
And the irony is, Chris, I washeading to the post office
(01:38):
yesterday to drop off theremaining stuffies.
And guess what happened?
All across Canada.
SPEAKER_01 (01:44):
You called me about this, and you said you're not
going to believe it.
And I said, What?
And you said Canada Post hasgone on strike.
SPEAKER_00 (01:53):
We were very frustrated when it happened, but
you and I are very stubborn,hardworking people, and we
figured out a solution to it.
And everybody was very actuallyvery gracious about waiting.
So some folks are gonna have towait a little bit longer because
our entire national post systemis now on strike.
So I can't even deliveranything, anyways.
That's out of our hands.
SPEAKER_01 (02:13):
Out of our hands, out of our controls.
You always say there's nothingfor it.
SPEAKER_00 (02:17):
There's nothing for it.
There's nothing we've had areally good couple of weeks with
the dogs, and uh and we haven'treally had pet chat to talk
about it.
And this isn't really the placeto talk about all the fun stuff
we've done with them.
But just real quick, we were atComic-Con on Saturday, and that
was an amazing experience.
SPEAKER_01 (02:34):
It sure was.
The dogs did so great.
They went as super dogs,Superman and Supergirl, and it
was a lot of fun.
We met some celebrities and madesome memories and made our fans
very happy.
SPEAKER_00 (02:47):
Yeah, it was an awesome time.
Okay, what's on the show thisweek?
In Science News, there was areally big story about
Huntington's disease, and Ithought we would sink our teeth
into that.
And in Pet Science, a reallycute study about I guess they're
gifted dogs and how they processlanguage.
I don't know, I don't know ifour dogs would be considered
(03:09):
gifted.
We're talking about those bordercollies that know hundreds of
words.
I don't know if our dogs wouldbe considered gifted.
They're smart.
I don't know, I don't know ifthey'd be in immense quality,
though.
SPEAKER_01 (03:22):
No.
But although I was veryimpressed that you can say find
your leash, and Bernoulli doesit.
SPEAKER_00 (03:29):
Yeah.
He's way smarter than he looks.
He just looks like a happy lug.
All right, on with the showbecause there's no time like
Science Time.
This week in Science News, let'stalk about Huntington's disease.
Now, you've probably heard ofthat before, and it's been a hot
minute since I've had to explainto students what Huntington's
(03:53):
disease is, but it's a mutationin the Huntington gene, and the
mutation leads to an abnormallylong protein that becomes toxic.
It's autosomal dominant.
So that means a child ofsomebody with Huntington's
disease has a 50% chance ofinheriting.
So it is extremely genetic.
(04:15):
Now, some of the symptomsinvolve involuntary movements.
Your muscles get stiff and youhave difficulty with voluntary
movements.
You have trouble speaking,swallowing, and have
coordination issues.
And it's progressive.
You have cognitive decline withpsychiatric symptoms.
So the disease is fatal, whichis really sad, and currently has
(04:38):
no cure.
And the kicker to it is this isthe thing that I have to explain
to students because they'realways like, if you're if you
have Huntington's disease, whydon't you just choose not to
have kids?
Because it's a flip of a coin topass it on.
And the problem is patientsdevelop the symptoms in
mid-adulthood.
You probably have started afamily by the time you're
(05:01):
diagnosed with it.
And then it's a very progressivedisability and an early death.
About seven in 100,000 peoplesuffer from Huntingdon's
disease.
SPEAKER_01 (05:11):
But Jason, there's been an experimental gene
therapy trial, and it's prettymuch a breakthrough
announcement.
On September 24th, so veryrecently, some results from a
small clinical trial of genetherapy were announced.
And you know what?
It generated some excitement andsome hope.
Since, as you said, Huntington'sdisease usually carries only
(05:35):
grim news.
Yeah, it's bad.
It's bad news.
So how the therapy works is thetherapy uses microRNA, which are
tiny RNA fragments that actuallyprevent the Huntington protein
from forming.
And these RNA molecules weredelivered using a viral vector,
(05:55):
which was injected directly intothe brain, which is different
than the previous methods thatthey use to maybe combat or
study Huntington's disease.
And so what happens is thevirus, in quotations, infects
the neurons and reprograms themto continuously produce microRNA
(06:17):
that blocks that tuck that toxicHuntington production.
So preventing that long proteinfrom forming.
And as I said, this approach isdifferent from earlier trials
because the RNA was injectedinto the cerebrospinal fluid,
(06:37):
which actually failed to reachcritical areas of the brain.
unknown (06:42):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (06:42):
And you had mentioned that it's a viral
vector.
So just quickly, if that term isconfusing to you, that's
something that scientists haveborrowed from viruses, and it
delivers genetic material intocells.
Remember, viruses are super goodat sneaking their genetic
instructions into other cells.
And if we can modify them tocarry instructions instead of
(07:03):
good instructions instead ofharmful ones, those instructions
can get it's almost like aheist.
Like they can ocean eleventhemselves through the cell
membrane and into the main partof the cell.
And that's what you mentioned.
They're continuously producingthose RNA blockers.
The trial details areinteresting.
It's a very small study of 17people with early Huntington
(07:25):
symptoms.
The surgery was no joke.
It lasted 12 to 18 hours.
And the viral vectoral payloadwas injected into three
different brain sites perhemisphere.
Of those 17, 12 patients weremonitored for 36 months, and
they gave them different teststo determine their progression
of disease, like motor control,their attention, their memory,
(07:48):
and how well they did at dailylife skills.
And Chris, the results were verycool.
SPEAKER_01 (07:53):
They were very cool.
So we would like to say it was asmall sample study, but it does
show promise because it isn't acure, but the disease
progression was slowed.
And patients on the highest doseshowed about a 75% less decline
in cognitive and motor symptomscompared to the untreated
(08:14):
patients.
And some patient symptomsactually appeared to stabilize.
So sharing the stories, onepatient who was previously
unable to work actually returnedto his IT job a year after going
through therapy.
And others that were expected tobe wheelchair bound were still
(08:36):
walking after three years, whichis incredible.
SPEAKER_00 (08:39):
Yeah, so this is a really good news study.
Yeah, this is such a good newsstudy.
Huntington's disease is justdevastating.
SPEAKER_01 (08:48):
Yeah, Jason, for sure.
There were some limitations anddefinite challenges to the
method that they used.
Of course, the limitation is thevery small trial, trial size of
17 patients, and their resultsactually are not yet peer
reviewed or published.
And you mentioned the brainsurgery being no joke.
It was invasive.
(09:09):
It's invasive brain surgery.
And unfortunately, treatmentwill likely be extremely
expensive because each dose wascustom made and the regulatory
approval is still pending.
It hasn't been given a rubberstamp.
But there's some broaderimplications that are positive
because this could inspiresimilar approaches for other
(09:33):
neurodegenerative diseases likeParkinson's and other viral
vector therapies that arealready approved for rare
disorders.
MicroRNA delivery is consideredrelatively easy to adapt to
these other conditions.
SPEAKER_00 (09:47):
So the this could be the low-hanging fruit to nail
off some of those otherdegenerative diseases, slowing
their, slowing the decline ofpeople that have them.
SPEAKER_01 (09:57):
Yeah, and it gives hope.
Patients and their families didexpress hope after having
decades of despair.
And that's what's still inPandora's box.
SPEAKER_00 (10:08):
We've had a hard week, and the news out there
sometimes isn't good.
This is definitely a good newsstory.
That's science news for thisweek.
This weekend, pet science.
Let's talk about some reallysmart dogs and how they process
language.
How many words do you thinkBernoulli, Bunsen, and Beaker
know?
What do they know a lot ofwords?
(10:29):
I think they do.
SPEAKER_01 (10:30):
I think they do.
I think they know the keywordslike walk and water and food and
bathroom and outside and want togo on the deck, and I'm gonna
spray you with water, and Bunsenwill run away.
Because I was just thinkingtoday they're really muddy.
(10:52):
When you tell them in advance,some of them they're like, I
don't want to really really wantto do that.
SPEAKER_00 (10:56):
The creek is really muddy.
I don't know which of the threeof them knows the most words.
I want to say Bernoulli,honestly.
Bernoulli may know the mostwords of the three.
SPEAKER_01 (11:09):
He might.
I don't know.
They all we just talk to themand we play with them.
And you know what?
I think that might be becauseBernoulli is the most
interactive with toys.
Whereas Beaker and Bunsen willjust leave them.
Like Bunsen's like, I have zerointerest in that until I do, but
that's that interest is few andfar between.
(11:31):
And Beaker likes a few selecttoys, but Bernoulli actually
engages in play.
And he's really quite funny.
When he was getting picked upfrom Doggy Daycare, they had a
basket of free toys.
And once he was told once thathe could have some of these free
toys, he took one every day.
And I hated that.
(11:51):
He had one every day and he justloved it.
So now you go pick him up andthey have a table full of baby
clothes because one of thetrainers there, she's having a
baby.
So they have this baby draw forguess the weight, all that
stuff, and these wonderfulclothes that are on the table.
You know what?
Bernoulli doesn't differentiatebetween those toys that were
(12:12):
free for the taking and thelittle baby onesie that he
definitely took the other day.
And I was like, oh no.
It was funny, but also not.
SPEAKER_00 (12:22):
That's a Bernoulli thing.
SPEAKER_01 (12:23):
Such a Bernoulli thing.
And then I got it away from him,and then he went back to the
table and got a different one.
So it was a thing.
SPEAKER_00 (12:30):
He he is he's crafty.
He is he's into things, yeah.
All right, let's get to thestudy.
This study shows that some dogsactually mentally label toys
based on how they're used inplay, so they sort them by
function, not just by appearanceor verbal cues.
And this study comes fromcurrent biology, really
(12:52):
recently, September 18th.
Now, this was sparked by anobservation.
A dog in another studycategorize toys into groups like
ball, rope, and ring.
And remarkably, the dog couldalso classify toys she's net
she'd never seen before intothose groups.
So the researchers asked thencan dogs also categorize toys
(13:15):
strictly by function rather thanwhat they look like.
SPEAKER_01 (13:20):
Of course, you mentioned the study participants
were the gifted word learnerdogs, mostly border collies.
They're so smart, and they havean unusually large vocabulary of
toys that they use that they'velearned naturally at home.
Because I think the bordercollies play with their toys and
they really enjoy that.
(13:41):
They're like fun and they'relike, please play with me,
otherwise, I'm going to eat yourdrywall.
SPEAKER_00 (13:45):
Yeah, they need a job and they need mental
stimulation.
SPEAKER_01 (13:48):
Um, exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (13:49):
Bunsen and Bernoulli just need the couch, like they
just need to go to sleep, theyjust power down.
SPEAKER_01 (13:55):
They do, but I think we would be very busy with a
border collie.
Um, we would be over the top.
It would be what?
Oh my goodness.
Eleven dogs were recruited forthis study, and then seven
completed the project.
There was a few there thatdidn't make the cut.
And I know, and it was fun.
The experiment was conducted indogs' home environments, and
(14:17):
that ensure and that ensurednatural play.
And so the first thing that theydid was functional training.
So the owners played eitherthrow or fetch or pull, like a
tug-of-board game, with theirdogs, um, using plushies,
squeakers, ropes, a variety oftoys.
(14:37):
And then each toy was randomlyassigned to one category, so
like the throw category or thepull category, regardless of its
physical traits.
And then owners named theactivity out loud, right?
Giving a name to it, like throwor pull, while they played.
And then in the next step, theytested with novel toys, so the
(14:58):
toys that dogs had not seenbefore, by introducing those new
toys and playing either fetch ortug with those toys, but they
did not name the activityallowed.
And so the dogs had to rely onlyon the experience of the
function, not the verbal or thevisual cues.
SPEAKER_00 (15:18):
And then this new toy, like the new toy, they just
played tug with it, and the dogjust had to know, oh, this is a
tug toy, and they never weretold.
SPEAKER_01 (15:26):
And then step three, or the last part of the study,
was owners were they said, butand then lastly, step three was
a retrieval task where ownersasked their dogs, hey, bring me
a throw or bring me a pull froma pile of old and new toys.
And the test would be would dogsapply the functional category to
(15:48):
the toys they had never heardlabeled before.
So would they realize, oh, thatwas a new toy, and I played tug
with it?
SPEAKER_00 (15:58):
It's a very human thing, right?
If you get a bunch ofkindergartner kids together and
you're like, these are scissorsand they cut, and then you give
them something that looks likescissors, I'm sure they'd be
able to classify them, right?
That's a human thing that humansare really good at doing is
classifying a bunch of stufftogether as function.
So here come the results, Chris.
(16:18):
The dogs did great.
Out of 48 trials, dogs selectedthe correct novel toy an average
of 31 times.
And the mistakes mostly happenedwhen dogs grabbed an old toy
they had already heard labeled.
Now that's not a hundredpercent.
31 out of 40 48 is about a 65%rate that's much higher than a
(16:41):
guess.
And the findings were enough toshow that dogs generalize
function categories fromfamiliar toys to new ones
without verbal instruction.
Very cool.
SPEAKER_01 (16:52):
So it's a significant study though, Jay,
because it's pretty novel.
Previous studies relied heavilyon trained captive animals,
whereas this one was testingcategorization by function in
the natural home setting with apet dog versus a heavily trained
captive animal.
And it carefully, the studyactually carefully ruled out
(17:12):
reliance on physical features orother cues, and they actually
assessed the dog's cognitivelevel.
So the dog's skill was comparedto that of a human toddler.
Aww.
I know.
So that suggests dogs don't justmemorize words, but they can use
them in a flexible functionalway.
SPEAKER_00 (17:29):
That's cute.
I've heard that so many we'vedone a lot of dog studies, and
that's the capacity that yourdogs have.
They're a toddler, they're ababy, not a baby, but they're a
toddler.
Yeah, and toddlers are toddlerswill surprise you with what they
know, but they're not an adult.
So you that's maybe that's whywe love them so much.
(17:51):
Because toddlers are a lot offun, but they're a lot of work
too.
SPEAKER_01 (17:56):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (17:56):
I was never more tired.
I keep saying this.
I was never more tired than whenAdam was a toddler, but he was
also a lot of fun.
Future studies may explore othercategories beyond throw and
pull.
Maybe what's another category offrisbee?
I don't have no idea.
I guess they'll have to come upwith other categories.
(18:17):
And it raises a broader questionabout how dogs recognize,
remember, and infer.
And these are all signs ofcomplex cognition.
We know dogs are smart, and Iguess we're just finding out
that they're as smart as somehumans.
If the humans were toddlers.
Alright, that's Pet Science forthis week.
That's it for this week's show.
(18:38):
Thanks for coming back weekafter week to listen to the
science podcast.
And a shout out to all the topdogs.
That's the top tier of ourPatreon community, The Popack.
You can sign up in our shownotes.
All right, Chris, let's hearthose names that are part of the
top dogs.
SPEAKER_01 (18:53):
Amelia Fettig, Re Oda, Carol Haino, Jennifer
Challenge, Linnea Janet, KarenCronister, Vicky Oteiro, Christy
Walker, Sarah Bram, Wendy,Diane, Mason and Luke, Helen
Chin, Elizabeth Bourgeois,Marianne McNally, Katherine
Jordan, Shelly Smith, LauraSteffenson, Tracy Leinbaugh,
(19:16):
Anne Uchida, Heather Burbach,Kelly, Tracy Halbert, Ben
Rather, Debbie Anderson, SandyBrimer, Mary Rader, Bianca Hyde,
Andrew Lynn, Brenda Clark,Brianne Hawes, Peggy McKeel,
Holly Birch, Kathy Zirker, SusanWagner, and Liz Button.
SPEAKER_00 (19:35):
For science, empathy, and cuteness.
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