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October 10, 2025 58 mins

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A newborn with higher pTau217 than an adult with Alzheimer’s—what would that mean for how we detect, define, and treat dementia? We dive into a startling new finding that reframes tau phosphorylation as a dynamic, reversible process rather than a one-way street. From the costs and tradeoffs of PET scans and CSF analysis to the promise of new blood tests, we lay out how clinicians navigate biomarkers and why context matters. If babies and even hibernating animals can toggle tau safely, we might be looking at a new horizon for Alzheimer’s research—one that prioritizes regulation over blunt suppression and respects the difference between signals and symptoms.

Then we turn to our dogs and a different kind of brain science: play that looks a lot like behavioral addiction. In a study of high-drive pets, some dogs pursued play so intensely they ignored food and struggled to settle once the toy disappeared. The kicker? It’s not the toy—it’s the play. We unpack how anticipation and reward loops shape behavior, why shepherds and terriers tend to lean in hard, and how to channel that energy with structured games, clear start/stop cues, and decompression routines that protect both joy and well-being.

Our guest, Dr. Nancy Kay—veterinarian and small animal internal medicine specialist—brings practical wisdom to family life with pets. She explains how to choose a dog that truly fits a home with kids, why supervision and respect rules beat wishful thinking, and how to steer clear of puppy mills and dog auctions with two simple safeguards: never buy from pet stores and never purchase sight unseen. We talk about her middle-grade novel, “A Dog Named 647,” her advocacy guide “Speaking for Spot,” and the unforgettable cases that come with a life in medicine—from swallowed treasures to high-stakes rescues. It’s science that matters, compassion that lasts, and stories that stick.

Enjoy the conversation? Follow, share with a friend, and leave a quick review to help more curious listeners find the show.


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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:09):
Hello, science enthusiasts.
I'm Jason Zakowski.

SPEAKER_01 (00:12):
And I'm Chris Zikoski.

SPEAKER_00 (00:14):
We're the pet parents of Bunsen, Beaker,
Bernoulli, and Ginger.

SPEAKER_01 (00:18):
The science animals on social media.
If you love science and you lovepets, you've come to the right
spot.
So put on your safety glassesand hold on to your tail.

SPEAKER_00 (00:29):
This is the Science Podcast.
Hello, and welcome back to theScience Podcast.
We hope you're happy and healthyout there.
This is episode 29 of seasonseven.
Chris, how are you doing?
It's been a weird week.

SPEAKER_01 (00:42):
It I'm doing very well.
Thank you so much for asking.
It has been a strange week, verysimilar to when we're on summer
holidays, but we're definitelynot on summer holidays.
And we've been joining somethings this week to in support
of teachers and our teachersassociation.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01):
Yeah.
I guess the good news is thatthe government and the union are
bargaining, are going back tothe bargaining table next week.
So let's hope, let's hopesomething fruitful comes from
that.
But yeah, it's definitely beenan odd, weird week.
And this weekend, of course, forCanadians is Thanksgiving.
So we do have Thanksgiving abouta month ahead of the Americans.

SPEAKER_01 (01:22):
What are you thankful for?

SPEAKER_00 (01:24):
Dogs.
What are you thankful for?

SPEAKER_01 (01:28):
I'm thankful for my family and I'm thankful for my
health.

SPEAKER_00 (01:32):
Answers.

SPEAKER_01 (01:33):
They are good answers.
I was walking, we were doing awalk, and I stepped on the curb
funny, and I fell down.
And I'm glad I did not break anyof my bones.

SPEAKER_00 (01:43):
Yes, you did take a tumble.

SPEAKER_01 (01:45):
I did all right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:46):
Let's get to the show.
On the Science Podcast thisweek, we're going to be talking
about some rather shocking newdata about Alzheimer's disease
and babies.
You found this article, and Iwas stunned as I was reading
through it.
It was it's fascinating buthorrifying at the same time.
And then in pet science, we'regoing to be looking at how dogs

(02:11):
may have some obsessivecompulsive behaviors like
humans.
And I know we see that withBeaker and her chasing light.

SPEAKER_01 (02:19):
She is a strong fixation on anything flashing.
So if your watch has areflection on the wall, or if
your phone is reflecting thelight, then it's a concern
definitely for her.

SPEAKER_00 (02:33):
And we do have a guest this week, Dr.
Nancy Kay, is a veterinarian,and we do get in some really
good discussions about pets andhaving pets when you've got kids
in the house.
All right, let's get on with theshow.
There's no time lake.

SPEAKER_01 (02:48):
Science time.

SPEAKER_00 (02:50):
This week in Science News, we're going to talk about
Alzheimer's disease.
Again, I feel like we've beentalking about this quite a bit,
but there's just been reallyinteresting news about it in
current events.

SPEAKER_01 (03:03):
And a lot of new research and some promising
things coming out of theresearch.

SPEAKER_00 (03:09):
Right, promising, but I think this is kind of
spooky.

SPEAKER_01 (03:12):
Uh, as we're getting close to Halloween, it's perfect
for spooky season.
Yes, you're right.

SPEAKER_00 (03:17):
Yeah.
Not to make light of Alzheimer'sor for anybody whose family is
going through that.
It's definitely a verydevastating disease to be
diagnosed with it and as itprogresses.
But spooky meaning, some of thefindings is definitely, I think,
scary.
And I know you found the silverlining in the story that it
could perhaps lead to treatmentsin the future, which is great.

SPEAKER_01 (03:38):
So, Jason, can you tell me a little bit about
Alzheimer's disease?
What is it, and what are thecurrent ideas about how it
starts?

SPEAKER_00 (03:49):
So I think we could probably start with a general
overview of Alzheimer's disease.
We've talked about it before,but it's a disorder that
destroys your memory, thinkingskills, and your ability to
carry out tasks.
It's the most common cause ofdementia, which is a general
term for the decline in yourmental ability, and it becomes

(04:10):
so severe that it starts tointerfere with your daily life.
And then for most folks, it doesbecome fatal, which is really
sad.
And specifically, there are twohallmark features in the brain
that changes.
There are amyloid beta plaques,these are clumps of protein
fragments that accumulatebetween neurons.
So just gum up the works there.

(04:32):
And tau tangles.
These are twisted fibers made ofphosphorylated tau proteins
inside neurons.
So instead of having clearintersections for traffic to
travel through, they are allclogged up with goo and the
roads aren't straight, they'reicy and twisted.

(04:52):
And that's the best way I canprobably explain Alzheimer's
disease.

SPEAKER_01 (04:57):
So there are several diagnostic methods that have
been used to determine ifsomeone may be influenced by
Alzheimer's.
One of those is neuroimaging,and those detect the amyloid and
tau deposits directly in thebrain.
And but it's really expensiveand is technologically demanding

(05:19):
to have the PET scans or otherneuroimaging.
Another test is thecerebrospinal fluid, the CSF
test, and that measures theamyloid beta and modified tau
levels, but that requires alumbar puncture, which is often
considered invasive.
But now there is a new bloodtest and it measures the amyloid

(05:43):
beta and something called the Ptau 217, which is the
phosphor-related Tau at position217.
And that's recently beenapproved, and it's non-invasive,
and it helps detect preclinicalAlzheimer's disease, the amyloid
accumulation before the symptomsactually appear.

SPEAKER_00 (06:04):
Doctors always try to do non-invasive stuff if they
can, and it becomes moreinvasive, obviously, the more
you go into the body to look forthings.
So where the study comes from isbrain communications.
Recently, within the last week,new research found this is the
shocking thing, unexpectedlyhigh levels of the PTau 217 in

(06:27):
healthy babies, newborns.
And the levels in newborns wereover five times higher than
teens or adults.
In fact, healthy newborns hadmore P Tau 217 than people with
Alzheimer's disease.
That's shocking.
Like when I saw that, I waslike, what?

(06:49):
Because we did another studytalking about P Tau 217 or at
least the Tau twisted proteins.
So what this sort of suggests atfirst blush is that Tau
phosphorylation, it can bereversible.
And that's where the silverlining comes from that you were
hopeful for, Chris, because ifit's reversible, maybe there's

(07:10):
some potential therapeuticprograms that can be
implemented.

SPEAKER_01 (07:14):
Going back to how did the researchers determine
this?
They measured the PTau 217 inhealthy newborns, teenagers,
young adults, and young adultsare considered 18 to 25, and
seniors, which were consideredage 70 to 77.
And all of the participantsshowed normal cognitive
function.
What they saw or what they foundis no major differences between

(07:37):
the teens and adults.
But like you said, the newbornshad extremely elevated P tau
217.
And so preterm infants that areless than 20 weeks of gestation
displayed even higher PTau 217levels.
But the levels dropped, but thelevels dropped over 20 weeks

(07:59):
post-birth after the babies wereborn, eventually matching
healthy young adult levels.

SPEAKER_00 (08:04):
So the preterm infants, those are like premi
babies, like born before theirdue date.
Is that the idea?

SPEAKER_01 (08:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (08:13):
Oh, okay.
So they compared this with anAlzheimer patient cohort.
The folks in the cohort hadAlzheimer's dementia, and those
with mild cognitive impairmentof the Alzheimer's type, and
then they had healthy controlswith that which had no cognitive
decline.
The diagnosis were confirmedthrough lumbar puncture and

(08:34):
cognitive testing.
So more invasive, but also doingface-to-face work.
The Alzheimer's and MCI patientshad elevated PTau 217 versus the
healthy adult cohort, but stillless than half the level seen in
newborns.
Other protein findings from thestudy also include total tau,

(08:55):
which was elevated in newborns,not just PTau 217.
This matches this matchedearlier data showing that fetal
brains had very high tau duringgestation.
Weirdly, the amyloid beta wassignificantly lower in newborns
than in older participants,which is the other thing that,

(09:17):
of course, is one of thehallmarks of Alzheimer's
disease.
Of course, there's otherdisorders and diseases where you
have that P tau 217.

SPEAKER_01 (09:27):
So the Krautzfeld Jacob disease sees elevated P
tau 217, the Neiman pick type CALS, which is Luke Gehrig's
disease, and there's alsocertain Tau gene mutations.
And that can actually suggestthat phosphorylization can occur
without Alzheimer's pathology.

SPEAKER_00 (09:48):
Yeah, the Krusfelds-Yachov disease, I had
to practice saying that inuniversity in one of my
microbiology classes, becauseit's caused by prions.
The common name for that is incows, mad cow disease.
It's 100% fatal.
And you get it from eatingbrains.

SPEAKER_01 (10:08):
Jason, is that the presentation that you were
supposed to do, but you were hitby a bike on the way to the No,
that was a nut, that was afoodborne pathogen that I was
really excited.

SPEAKER_00 (10:16):
Clostrinium perfynes.
I was really excited to talkabout that.
But prion is a they're like amutated protein.
Basically screwed up proteins,and they're infectious.
Like they'll just screw up allthe proteins they come in
contact with.
They're super nasty, like notfun at all.
That's odd that you have thatsame elevated tau in that

(10:38):
disorder.
In nature, though, there is sometau reversibility.
We see that in hibernatinganimals, like ground squirrels
and black bear bears.
A while back, I talked to agrizzly bear scientist who
actually brought this up thatduring torpor, which isn't
hibernation with bears, um, theyjust go into deep sleep.

(11:02):
They show temporary tau changes.
This serves as a protectivemechanism when their metabolism
is really slow.
It reverses when the animalswake up.

SPEAKER_01 (11:14):
So we don't want to make too many generalizations
about this study because thereare some implications and
debate.
If we're talking about a newbornand a 60-year-old with mild
memory loss, they can bothactually test positive for PTau
217.
But of course, their contextsare vastly different.

(11:35):
One is a newborn and one is a60-year-old person.
The study raises questions aboutwhether Alzheimer's should be
defined by biomarkers like PTau217 or by clinical symptoms that
can be expressed in the doctor'soffice or wherever you go for

(11:56):
your medical assistance.
So the findings don't settle thedebate, but they emphasize the
reversible nature of Tauphosphorylization,
phosphorylation, and it actuallysuggests new directions for
Alzheimer's treatments aiming atreversing or regulating tau

(12:18):
buildup.

SPEAKER_00 (12:19):
Yeah, if squirrels and bears can do it and babies,
why not older folk?
That's at least hope.
That's at least hopeful, right?
Because the diagnosis is veryscary for families and comes
with a lot of despair.
So a little bit of hope here.
All right, that's science newsfor this week.
This week in Pet Science, we'regonna be talking about addictive

(12:44):
behaviors, but maybe with dogs.
I don't think Bunsen orBernoulli have any obsessive or
addictive behaviors, butdefinitely Beaker does, as we
mentioned in the lead.
She chases light, and it's she'sdone it her whole life, ever
since she was a puppy, and it'sbeen impossible or very

(13:08):
difficult to break.

SPEAKER_01 (13:09):
Yeah, like even with Leviat, she it's very hard for
her to not follow the light.
Even today, when we were outsideand there were no phones
anywhere, so no flashing glintof any light.
She, we were outside, it wassunny, she was searching the
ground just in case there wasgoing to be some light for her

(13:31):
to ignoring all the dogs and thepeople.

SPEAKER_00 (13:33):
She was just focused on.
I think somebody had a phone ora watch and there was a glint
and she saw it.
So that's why she was on pointfor that.

SPEAKER_01 (13:42):
Maybe you're right.

SPEAKER_00 (13:44):
Yeah, but we're not talking about we're not talking
about beaker chasing light.
We're talking about dogs playingbecause some dogs play to an
extreme degree, that their playshares characteristics with
human addictions.
Now, the research that we'regoing to get into suggests that
the play, but not the toy, mayact as a behavioral reward

(14:07):
similar to addictive patterns,which is crazy wild.

SPEAKER_01 (14:12):
The study found in scientific reports studied 105
pet dogs, and they were allenthusiastic about play.
They did a toy s what?

SPEAKER_00 (14:25):
I just said yay, and they like to play.

SPEAKER_01 (14:28):
Oh, I thought you said hey.
And what they did is they had atoy selection process where the
owners chose three types of toysthat they believed their dog
liked the best.
One being a ball, two being aplush toy, and three being a tug
toy.
After that, the dogs theninteracted with all three toys.

(14:52):
And the toy that captured thedog's greatest interest became
the one that was used in theexperiments.

SPEAKER_00 (15:00):
So here we go.
Here's the experiments, Chris.
The researchers conductedcontrolled tests to evaluate the
dog's reactions.
One was mean, it's theinaccessible toy test.
The dog's preferred toy wasplaced out of reach on a shelf,
and the observers recordbehaviors such as whining,
staring, jumping, or pawing.
These reactions gauged the dog'smotivation and frustration

(15:24):
levels.
Then they did toy versus foodpuzzle test.
The same toy was locked inside aclosed box, and a puzzle feeder
was filled with dry food andleft freely available.
They observed if dogs ignoredthe food and went after the box,
or ignored the box and wentafter the food.
And then the last one wascalming time measurement.

(15:46):
The researchers measured howlong each dog took to calm down
after the toy was removed.
Longer recovery times indicateda stronger emotional investment
and addiction like drive.
Now, did you notice that afteruh like we went to Sally's Play
Center today and Bernoulli andBeaker got to swim, which was

(16:06):
cute.
Like Bernoulli was like crazyafter swimming.
Like he was ought, had so muchenergy.

SPEAKER_01 (16:13):
Yeah, it was like you should be so tired.
You've been swimming so hard,but you were running around
frisky, I think, because he wasall wet, and so he was getting a
blow dry from the wind.
But there also was differentdogs.
There was a bit of a rotationwhich could have changed the
dynamic, but he definitely wasfull of energy.

(16:37):
That's you're absolutely right.
The findings were actuallypublished in scientific reports,
and they used a behavior-basedscoring system.
And 33 out of the 105 dogsdisplayed addictive-like
behavior towards their toys.
Now, the traits that mirroredhuman addiction were the

(16:58):
persistent pursuit of thereward, so the toy or the play,
and the difficulty disengagingonce the reward was removed, and
also prioritizing the rewardingactivity, the play, over all the
other needs, food.
So just being fixated on thattoy, even when there was food

(17:20):
left to free feed.
So the key interpretation thenthat they found is that the
object or the toy isn't theaddiction, but the play is.
So they like the excitement,they like the positive feelings
that come from interactive play.
The toy then becomes a symbol ora trigger for the pleasure of

(17:43):
play that's about to come.
Like you see the toy, oh boy,fun is going to be had.
And that parallels behavioraladdiction in humans where the
stimulus, like gambling orgaming, triggers that
dopamine-driven reward loops inthe brain.

SPEAKER_00 (18:00):
Very cool.
Now, everybody at home, take aguess which breeds were most
likely to exhibit a huge toyplay fixation.

SPEAKER_01 (18:10):
Did you say like and perseverance and the
perseverance is clear?
Perseverance, right?
Perseverance, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (18:15):
Not give it, not stick to it.
Shepherd breeds and terriers,obviously, because they have
very high focus, they'repersistent, and they have a
strong prey and play drive.
Those are traits that are veryvaluable when you have working
and herding dogs.
Now, the exact percentage ofdogs showing addictive like play

(18:37):
behavior remains unknown.
There was an unpublished study,that of course, this was not
vetted, this was unpublished,found about 3% could be
classified as having addictivelike behavior.
So there's not this is just nota very well studied area of dog
behavior.
But there's a lot of goodimplic, there's a lot of

(18:58):
interesting implications becausebehavioral addictions in humans
are not fully understood.
But you probably had to take asociology or psychology class in
your education degree, right,Chris?
And there's some people who doan addictive thing and never get
addicted, and then there's somepeople who get addicted right
away, right?
So it's still not reallyunderstood why that happens.

(19:21):
And compulsive play behaviors indogs are even less studied.
So don't equate dog toyobsession with human addiction
because it's not wellunderstood.
The analogy is partial, and thelast thing I guess is like a
dog's addictive behavior mayjust reflect joy, not some kind

(19:41):
of pathological addiction.
You shouldn't stop playing withyour dog.

SPEAKER_01 (19:46):
No, because this research actually emphasizes the
positive importance of havingplay with your dog because it
strengthens the dog-human bond,it provides mental stimulation
and emotional release for bothparties, and it actually helps
dogs express their naturalinstincts safely, which is what
I really loved today about justhanging out and playing with the

(20:08):
dogs.

SPEAKER_00 (20:09):
There and seeing Beaker go retrieve, like she's
so fast at it.

SPEAKER_01 (20:14):
And just how she likes, yeah, and how she likes
going up and down the obstacles,and just yeah, right when she
got in the parking lot, she wassmiling, and she didn't have her
resting beaker face, she had herresting smiling face, which is
always a delight to see.

SPEAKER_00 (20:31):
Exactly.
Yeah, the whole place is ajungle gym, and she just loves
that whole thing.
It's just cool for her.
Bernoulli likes it too, but hejust likes to go everywhere.
All right, that's pet signs forthis week.
It's time for Ask an Expert onthe Science Podcast, and I have
veterinary doctor and smallanimal internal medicine
specialist, Dr.

(20:52):
Nancy Kay.
Nancy, how are you doing today?

SPEAKER_02 (20:55):
Fabulous.
Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 (20:57):
Yay, yeah, I'm excited to talk to you.
I always ask our guests whereare you in the world?
Where are you calling into theshow from?

SPEAKER_02 (21:03):
I am in Oakland, California.

SPEAKER_00 (21:06):
Oh, okay.
Yeah, so you we are enteringwinter right away as most of
California kind of stays thesame.
That's what I've heard.
Yes.
The seasons just blend fromspring to summer and then back
to spring again.

SPEAKER_02 (21:21):
We have four seasons, but it's yeah, I if I
tell people about the weatherhere, I tend to make them pretty
darn jealous.

SPEAKER_00 (21:29):
There you go.
I introduced you as Dr.
Nancy Kay.
Could you talk to us a littlebit about your training as a
vet?

SPEAKER_02 (21:37):
You bet.
So I went through apre-veterinary school program,
which is the equivalent of abachelor's degree, and then four
years of veterinary school.
And after four years ofveterinary school, when we
graduate, we are able to go outand practice veterinary medicine
on all species, great and small.

(21:58):
So we become fairly proficientin a lot of different species.
But I wanted to go ahead as alot of people do and specialize.
There's all kinds of veterinaryspecialists, cardiologists,
neurologists, oncologists.
I'm an internal medicinespecialist.
And what we do is we go througha year-long training program, an

(22:22):
internship program, and then twoyears of residency, and then
write papers and sit throughsome really tough examinations.

SPEAKER_00 (22:30):
Oh, man.

SPEAKER_02 (22:31):
And if we do well, we come out the other end as a
board certified specialist.

SPEAKER_00 (22:36):
Okay.
When you were young, wasbecoming a veterinary doctor a
calling to you?
Was it something you wanted tobe as a young person?

SPEAKER_02 (22:45):
Oh, it was.
It really was.
I like to say that I emergedfrom the womb-loving animals.
And by 10 years of age, I knew Iwanted to become a veterinarian,
and I never gave up on that.
So I think I'm the exceptionrather than the rule in that
regard.

SPEAKER_00 (23:02):
From Chris and I and our family of pets, we just want
to thank you for the work thatyou do.
We are the vets are the firstline of defense with the pets
that we love.
And Bunsen had just about the ashort end to his life last year,
if not for the skillful work ofa team of vets.
Yeah.
Thank you for what you do.

SPEAKER_02 (23:21):
Thanks.
Thanks for saying that.

SPEAKER_00 (23:23):
Now, you have written some books and have some
specific knowledge about somethings that we've never really
chatted with guests before onthe podcast.
And I think I was gonna, I thinkI'm gonna pick your brain on
some of them if that's please.

SPEAKER_02 (23:35):
Oh, by all means.

SPEAKER_00 (23:36):
So there's a lot of parents that listen to our show,
but they have kids.
They've joined listening to theshow, I think, from our accounts
on Instagram and Facebook.
And I was wondering, could yougive us some tips for parents
about having a pet and kids atthe same time?

SPEAKER_02 (23:52):
Sure.
A lot depends on the age of thechildren.
I'll put that out there and I'llexplain a little bit more about
what I mean by that.
Before you get a pet, and let'ssay it's a dog in this
situation.

SPEAKER_05 (24:05):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (24:06):
You want to make sure that everyone in the house
wants the dog.
The grown-ups need to be intoit.
And I've heard so many timesthat the child says they'll take
responsibility for the dog, andthat just doesn't happen.
Even kids that are in middleschool and high school, they're
busy, they're distracted, andit's a problem for the dog if

(24:27):
meals get skipped or if the walkdoesn't happen.
And so as a parent, you want tobe sure that you are into taking
care of the dog.
And certainly the child can dothings under your supervision,
but don't get a dog simplybecause the children want one,
because the responsibility iswith the adult and the family.

(24:51):
Secondly, I know how frantic andfrenetic households with young
children can be, especially withparents working in there, done
that.
And if you have young kids, thekind of kids that I like to
think of as exploding withexuberance physically, jumping

(25:12):
and leaping and screaming, andthat's not a good fit for a
puppy.
Because for a puppy, that's aninvitation to come play, come
jump, come bite.
And so puppies and young kidsare not a good combination.
And if you're going to get anadult dog, that's a different

(25:34):
story.
Want to be careful about whattemperament you choose.
Some dogs, some dog breeds inparticular, are excellent with
children, and others simply arenot.
I saw a saying the other daythat I loved that said, you
cannot train a dog to be goodwith kids.

(25:55):
But what you can do is train akid to be good with dogs.
So I'm a big believer in thatchildren should have respect for
the dog.
They shouldn't use the dog as abeanbag chair.
They shouldn't be putting theirfingers in the dog food bowl
when the dog is wanting to eat.
If the dog is in a crate, whichis the dog's kind of sacred

(26:17):
chill place, that's not a placethat the kids should enter.
So having kids, especiallylittle kids and dogs, needs, in
my opinion, constantsupervision.
And if you ask about any ER doc,emergency room doc, they'll tell
you the same thing becausethey're the ones that see the

(26:39):
situations that have gone awry.
Truthfully, 99.9% of the time,when a dog bites, it's because
the grown-up made a mistake.
When a dog bites a child, thatthe grown-up has made a mistake
by letting them be togetherunsupervised, by letting the
dog, the kid, do things to thedog that are inappropriate.

SPEAKER_00 (27:03):
That's a really good message, too.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (27:06):
And so what I recommend for busy families who
really want a dog is try to findthat dog that needs to be
rehomed because of circumstancessuch as someone passed away,
there's a divorce, someone ismoving, but that dog then
arrives into your household withmanners, knows some obedience,

(27:28):
is house-trained, so that thedog can just come in very
smoothly and blend into thefamily without any problems.
And of course, breed temperamentplays a role because I'll be the
first to tell you that when Iwas raising my three children,
we had golden retrievers in thehouse.

(27:49):
And we did that because we knowthe temperament.
They're nanny dogs, so to speak.
Labradors, standard poodles area great family breed of dog, or
mixed breed dog that has beenevaluated by someone who's
really knowledgeable.
So if you decide to adopt a dogfrom a shelter or a rescue,

(28:12):
which I'm completely in favorof, someone should hopefully
have done temperament testing onthat dog before you bring the
dog into your home.

SPEAKER_00 (28:22):
Those are all great points.
And I would imagine they mightbe hard to hear.
Like some folks might pricklewhen they hear that from you.
Have you tell me why?
No, I agree.
It's just that everybody has thebest intentions, right?
They're like the dog, and I'lltrain the dog, and the kids are
going to be good with the dog.
Or like my my middle schoolchild is so responsible, they'll

(28:44):
take care of the dog.
Don't you worry about it.

SPEAKER_02 (28:46):
Yes, there's certainly exceptions.
No, no doubt about it.
There's exceptions.
That's why a lot of dogs getreturned to shelter situations,
is because the family thinksthat they can do it and figure
out that they're not gettingwhat they need, the people, and
the dog isn't getting what thedog needs to be happy and

(29:07):
comfortable.

SPEAKER_00 (29:08):
You bet.

SPEAKER_02 (29:09):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (29:09):
Our we have three dogs, Bunsen, Beaker, and
Bernoulli.

SPEAKER_02 (29:14):
And Bunsen science names.

SPEAKER_00 (29:16):
Yeah, and Bunsen and Bernoulli are huge, right?
They're Bernice Mountain dogs.
They're very big.
And they're great with kids.
Like they're really good withkids.
Bunsen loves little kids, andBernoulli does too.
But like we watch when littlekids come to our house for a
visit or we're out in public.
We're watching little because itjust takes that little kid, like

(29:39):
a toddler, to poke them in theeye.
And they're not there, like Idon't think they would ever bite
a child, but they might flinchand fling that kid across the
room.

SPEAKER_02 (29:50):
That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_00 (29:51):
Yeah, those unintended movements of big dogs
can just send small childrenflying.

SPEAKER_02 (29:56):
Right.
Burners are on that breed listfor dogs that tend.
To be more like nannies thandogs in the family situation
with kids.
And that the problem, thespecial problem with young kids,
is the things that they do andthe noises that they make uh
really activate a dog to beexcited.

(30:16):
And the kid's face is right atthe dog's the level of the dog's
face.
So if there is an unexpectedconsequence, it's pretty
hazardous.

SPEAKER_00 (30:29):
Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 (30:30):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (30:30):
That's great advice.
And like I said, we've never hada discussion with a vet about
this before.

SPEAKER_02 (30:36):
And if I can say one more thing.

SPEAKER_00 (30:38):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (30:39):
I think kids should be raised with animals.
I think it does so much good forthem in terms of teaching
empathy, helping the kid learnsome responsibility.
I yeah, I would never raise achild or a grandchild of mine
without a dog and cat in thehouse.

SPEAKER_00 (31:00):
Great.
Are you okay with the and thatthat that question?
Can we move on to the next one?
Of course.
All right, I'll cut this bit,don't worry.
Another interesting thing thatyou mentioned that you have some
expertise in or you have someknowledge about, and it's
something that we really haven'thad a vet chat with us about,

(31:20):
and that's the subject of puppymills and dog auctions.
Can you talk to us about that?

SPEAKER_02 (31:26):
Sure.
So for anyone listening who'snot familiar with puppy mills,
what they are, large commercialbreeding facilities.
There's a lot in Canada, there'sa lot in the United States.
In the United States, weguesstimate there are to be
10,000 of them putting out 45million puppies a year.
And these are large, the way Iliken these large commercial

(31:50):
scale breeding facilities, Iliken them to factory farming of
livestock, pigs and cows, whereanimals are crowded together and
very overly crowded.
And what's prioritized isprofit.
Profit is prioritized over thephysical and psychological

(32:11):
well-being of the animals.
For example, in a puppy millsituation, a dog might live her
entire life in a small cage withnothing but wire under her feet,
and she's bred on every heatcycle.
So she's either pregnant ornursing puppies and very little

(32:32):
in between.
And there's rarely positivehuman interaction.
It's a horrific existence for adog, absolutely horrible.
At least the puppies get outwhen they're sold, but they
carry a lot of the attributes oftheir dam, which is being
fearful and especially ofpeople.

(32:55):
Those are puppy mills.
Dog auctions are where puppymillers go to trade their
breeding dogs.
So they sell this lot ofbreeding dogs and buy another
lot of breeding dogs.
And the looks on these dog'sfaces, both in puppy mills and
at the dog auctions, if I lookinto the eyes of some of these

(33:16):
dogs, it's as if they're justpleading, help me.
It's really what has motivatedme to be such a vocal advocate
against puppy mills.
And where puppy mills sell theirpuppies, if you buy from a pet
store, a puppy from a pet store,there's a 95% likelihood that

(33:36):
puppy came from a puppy mill.
And if you purchase a puppyonline, no matter how great the
website looks, no matter howmany pictures or videos the
breeder sends you, if you don'tgo and visit the kennel in
person and meet the mama dog inperson, then there's a good

(33:58):
chance you're going to wind upwith a puppy mill purchase.
And these tend to be dogs thathave a lot of psychological
damage as well as physicalabnormalities.
And so I can't even count thenumber of puppies I've seen that
have just been adopted, and thenew owners are heartbroken

(34:20):
because they have a very sickdog that, if we treat, can be
very expensive and sometimesit's not treatable.
And their only recourse is tosend the puppy back to the puppy
mill for a replacement dog.
That's the guarantee they'regiven.
But not many people want to dothat once they understand where
their puppy came from.

SPEAKER_00 (34:41):
Oh man.
So look, I do have someknowledge that these exist, and
I know they're a big, they're abig problem.
I'm just trying to think inCanada.
I don't think pet stores areallowed anymore to sell dogs.
That's not a thing in Canada.
I think there was some law awhile ago that was passed.
Pet stores have they partnerwith rescues, so you can adopt a

(35:05):
dog at say pet land.
They have stuff like that.
But yeah.
What do you have somesuggestions for folks?
Like how can you avoid this?
Yeah.
Or are you just are we all partof the problem because we want
dogs and we'll just get a dogwithout doing research?
I don't know what I'm I just washoping maybe you have some
advice for us there.

SPEAKER_02 (35:25):
Sure.
I think that the the thing to dois to avoid falling in love with
a picture that's on a website.
I know so many people who seewhat the way these puppy mills
advertise is it's almost likelooking through a yearbook where
there's a bunch of differenthead photos and they look at all

(35:46):
page after page of the puppiesand fall in love with a face and
want that puppy and tend to notlook at the red flags.
It's I liken it to these datingapps where you see someone's
pictures and you say, Oh, that'sPrince Charming.
And no, you haven't reallyinvestigated it, not Prince

(36:07):
Charming at all.
So the two things I think aresuper simple and make it really
easy to avoid a puppy millpurchase.
One, don't ever buy from a petstore unless it's something
that's being sponsored by arescue organization or a
shelter.
And two, never purchase a puppysight and sight unseen by that.

(36:32):
Never purchase without visitingthe kennel in person and meeting
the mama dog.
Because puppy mills won't allowyou to visit, they have way too
much to hide.

SPEAKER_00 (36:45):
It's gross, probably.

SPEAKER_02 (36:47):
Horrific.
Right.
And yet they create thesewebsites that look like they're
heaven on earth for dogs.
There's a lot of sham websites.

SPEAKER_00 (36:57):
So when people get the dog, do they just show up?
They meet somewhere and theyhand you the puppy.
I'm just so unfamiliar.

SPEAKER_02 (37:04):
Yes, yes, that's exactly right.
They say, let's meet halfway soyou don't have to drive as far.
Or they put these six,eight-week-old puppies on planes
and fly them across the countryto the other thing, too, is that
puppy millers tend to jump onfads.
They're super opportunistic.

(37:25):
So are doodles all the craze,all the rage up in Canada right
now?

SPEAKER_00 (37:29):
Do I say a little bit?
They were for a bit, but I don'tknow.
I would say not as much.
Like there, no, not maybe Idon't know.
There's lots of them.

SPEAKER_02 (37:45):
There's lots of them here.

SPEAKER_00 (37:46):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (37:47):
And so what puppy millers have done, they've gone
ahead and bred poodles toeverything, creating all kinds
of different hybrids, designerhybrids.
There's a lot of burnoodles outthere, which are yes, you've
heard of those.

SPEAKER_05 (38:00):
Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (38:01):
And here's the thing responsible breeders do not
breed designer hybrid dogs.
They're passionate about thebreed that they have chosen to
get into.
So, for example, if you purchaseyour dogs from a responsible
breeder guaranteed, they knoweverything about Bernese
mountain dogs.
They've done all the varioushealth clearances to screen for

(38:25):
the diseases that Bernesemountain dogs get.
And none of that exists in theland of puppy mills.
They won't have paperworkdocumenting health of parents
and grandparents.
They won't have that.
I think the thing to be reallycareful about is not to get
swept away by a picture of adog, because the more we demand

(38:52):
puppy mill dogs, the supplychain won't simply continue as
it has been.
Which is why I'm taking this tothe kids now.
I my goal is to really educatekids about animal welfare
issues, including puppy mills.
Because kids in middle grade,it's about ages eight through 12

(39:13):
or 13, they have thisbourgeoising awareness of the
world around them and looking atsocial issues for the first
time.
So my goal is to teach kidsabout puppy mills with hopes
that they'll do a better job atnot per not doing business with
puppy mills compared to what ourgenerations are doing.

SPEAKER_00 (39:37):
That's a good age group to hit.
Like on my day job, I'm ateacher.

SPEAKER_02 (39:41):
Oh, there you go.

SPEAKER_00 (39:42):
Yeah, and the younger kids, it's very abstract
to them to try to explain humansuffering.

SPEAKER_02 (39:48):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (39:48):
But animal suffering, oh, they get that
immediately.

SPEAKER_02 (39:52):
Ah, interesting.

SPEAKER_00 (39:53):
They latch on that's very tangible that they can
visualize.
Age group is that that'd be likethe age you're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 (40:00):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (40:01):
It's not till the kids get to the upper grades
that they can really visualizehuman suffering as interesting.

SPEAKER_02 (40:09):
Yes.
And I had for the book that Ijust wrote about puppy mills, I
had 12 middle grade beta readersand who gave me feedback on what
I'd written.
And only half of them had everheard of puppy mills before.
So the way I see it, the morekids who learn about puppy

(40:29):
mills, the better, which is whyI'm always happy to give away
free ebook copies of my book.

SPEAKER_00 (40:36):
And this book is a dog named 647.
Is that correct?

SPEAKER_02 (40:39):
Yes.
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (40:40):
Could you talk to us a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_02 (40:42):
Oh, I would love to.
So 12-year-old Mia is down onher luck.
Her parents are divorced.
Her dad lives three states awaywith his new family.
Single mom works relentlessly,but yet there's never enough
money for Mia.
School is a great big drag.
But her life changes when shehas a chance meeting with a

(41:06):
runaway golden retriever who'spregnant and she's run away from
a puppy mill and is being chasedby a man with a rope.
And the man drags the dog away.
And Mia's mission, with helpfrom her best friend Cassie,
their mission becomes to try tofind 647, the number that was

(41:28):
written on her plastic collar tofind her again.
And that leads them to anencounter with the puppy mill
and unfolds from there.
It's an adventure story.
And what I like about it is thatMia and Cassie have to do some

(41:50):
significant Nancy Drew-likesleuthing to overcome the
obstacles put in their way.

SPEAKER_00 (41:57):
I love it.
What's the age group?
What's the age group the book isaimed at?

SPEAKER_02 (42:01):
Eight through 13.

SPEAKER_00 (42:02):
Okay, perfect.

SPEAKER_02 (42:03):
However, that being said, a lot of the Amazon
reviews are from adults who haveloved the book.

SPEAKER_00 (42:10):
That's great.

SPEAKER_02 (42:12):
It's really great.
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (42:14):
I may or may not have read every single diary of
a wimpy kid when my kids were,my sons were into those, that
book.
They were not written for agrown man, but I well picture me
reading Dog Man to my book.

SPEAKER_02 (42:28):
Oh dog man.

SPEAKER_00 (42:29):
I love dog.
My nephews love dog men.

SPEAKER_02 (42:32):
Yeah, my grandson loves dog man.
Absolutely.
We've seen the movie twice, andyes.

SPEAKER_00 (42:39):
That's great.

SPEAKER_02 (42:40):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (42:41):
Where can people find this book, a dog named 647?

SPEAKER_02 (42:44):
You should be able to find it at any local
bookstore.
Any bookstore should be able toorder it.
You can find it on any onlinebookseller as well.

SPEAKER_05 (42:53):
Perfect.

SPEAKER_02 (42:54):
If anyone wants a free ebook copy, they can simply
check my author website.
Do you want me to give you thewebsite now?

SPEAKER_00 (43:03):
Sure, and we'll have a link in the show notes.

SPEAKER_02 (43:05):
Okay.
It's dr nancyk a y dot com.

SPEAKER_00 (43:14):
That's awesome.
Very generous.

SPEAKER_02 (43:16):
Oh, of course.
And on the homepage, you'll finda link to get a free ebook.
Like I said, the more kids whoread this book, the better.

SPEAKER_00 (43:24):
Yeah.
Awesome.
Thank you.
And and you've written a fewbooks.
One of the ones I was justwanted to ask about as well.
It's called Speaking for Spot.
Be the advocate for your dog.
The ad be the advocate your dogneeds to live a happy, healthy,
longer life.

SPEAKER_03 (43:40):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (43:41):
Um, and does what's the the kind of the Cole's notes
or the short form of the book?
Like what's the synopsis?

SPEAKER_02 (43:47):
Sure.
So the book talks about medicaladvocacy, medical advocacy
skills, and it applies forpeople with dogs.
Many people who have read ithave said that they've taken
what they learned from the bookto their own medical
appointments.

SPEAKER_05 (44:04):
Oh.

SPEAKER_02 (44:05):
Yes.
All kinds of things, what toexpect from your veterinarian.
A second opinion is always okay.
There's a whole chapter abouteuthanasia and how to figure out
when and how vaccinations, allkinds of questions to ask your
veterinarian.
If your veterinarian isrecommending a new prescription,

(44:29):
these are the questions to askabout the new medication.
So it's filled with advice,tidbits about how to be a good
advocate for your dog.

SPEAKER_00 (44:40):
That's awesome.
And again, they people canperhaps find those in the same
location.

SPEAKER_02 (44:45):
Absolutely.
Yes.
Gotcha.
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (44:48):
I have one question just back to your training as an
internal medicine specialist.
Just out of curiosity, justsomething maybe about that.
Do you what are some of the someof your stories of note from
working in that field?
Do you have peace to mind?

SPEAKER_02 (45:04):
Sure, I do.
So what internal medicinespecialists do, we get referrals
from general practitioners toeither try to diagnose what a
problem is, or that we it thedog or cat comes with the
diagnosis and they're asking usto treat it.
And so we do a lot of diagnosticprocedures.

(45:26):
We do a lot of ultrasound and alot of endoscopy.
And that's where a tube isinserted into the
gastrointestinal tract.
For those of you who have hadcolonoscopies, you know what I'm
talking about.
But also the scope is insertedinto the throat, down the
esophagus, the stomach, and thesmall intestine.

(45:48):
And I I have pulled out a lot ofvery interesting foreign bodies.

SPEAKER_00 (45:54):
Oh my God.

SPEAKER_02 (45:55):
From dog stomachs.
Oh a very valuable diamondwedding ring.

SPEAKER_00 (46:01):
What?
Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 (46:02):
Was was one of those.
There was another situationwhere it was really creepy scary
because everything's magnifiedthrough this scope.
And I went in and I saw arms andlegs and a whole body.
And then this brightly coloredhair.

SPEAKER_00 (46:23):
Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 (46:24):
And pulled it out.
Can you guess what it was?

SPEAKER_00 (46:27):
As a troll doll.

SPEAKER_02 (46:28):
A troll doll.

SPEAKER_00 (46:30):
Jeez.

SPEAKER_02 (46:31):
That's exactly right.
Stories like that.
We've we also did some work, probono work at a marine mammal
center.
Actually, it was a sea worldsituation, which I don't really
condone any anymore.
But we did some work on a killerwhale where we passed the scope
down the blowhole, which is theequivalent of the dog's

(46:54):
windpipe, uh, to get somesamples.
And we did it on a whale thatwas wide awake.
But they would train the whaleto swim up and perch on the
ledge.
And then we would quickly try todo what we needed to do before
the whale said, Nope, I'm out ofhere.
And so we did that over and overagain, trying to protect this

(47:16):
very expensive equipment that wehad right near the water.

SPEAKER_00 (47:21):
Wow.
Killer whales are no joke,they're huge, they're huge.

SPEAKER_02 (47:26):
Yeah.
So that was the most exoticspecies that I have worked with.
A gorilla once, some large cats.
It's interesting.
It's such a great profession,such a fun profession.
I can't say enough about it.

SPEAKER_00 (47:46):
I can imagine some of the things you found.
You and other internal medicinespecialists could play bingo and
break down some random things,and as they get pulled out, you
play bingo on your sheet.

SPEAKER_02 (47:58):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Underwear is very common.
Socks.

SPEAKER_00 (48:02):
Yeah, socks.

SPEAKER_02 (48:04):
Yeah, rags, various food substances like bones,
cobs.

SPEAKER_00 (48:09):
Oh, corn cobs.
My brother's dog ate a corn coband uh it got lodged.
Yeah, yeah, like the wholething.
He survived.

SPEAKER_02 (48:18):
Good.
Yeah.
Yep, it's a common problem.

SPEAKER_00 (48:22):
So silly, it's like something you never would think,
right?

SPEAKER_02 (48:25):
Exactly.
But it's just the right diameterto cause an obstruction.

SPEAKER_00 (48:30):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (48:31):
As our peach pits and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 (48:34):
Yeah.
Bunsen had an obstruction fiveyears ago before beaker.
Yeah, I think pre-beaker.
We used to give him these cowknuckles.
We like we're not experts.
We're this was probably stupid.
And we gave and he would onlyeat the meat off of the cow
knuckle.
Yes.
And then, of course, we weren'tsupervising him, which is the

(48:56):
biggest problem, right?
You have to supervise your dogif they're eating something like
that.
And he bit a big chunk of itoff.

SPEAKER_02 (49:01):
And that oh no.

SPEAKER_00 (49:02):
Yeah, that bone got lodged.
But so we took him in because hewas obviously having trouble.
And the vet's, I think it'smoving because they did
ultrasound one hour apart and itwas moving through his digestive
tract.

unknown (49:15):
Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 (49:16):
And sure enough, we took him home and four hours
later it like shot out of hisbutt.

SPEAKER_02 (49:22):
Oh, thank goodness.

SPEAKER_00 (49:23):
It's a great story, but I thank goodness of that
thing, and I was like, oh man,that must have not felt great.
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (49:31):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (49:33):
But it saved him from having surgery.

SPEAKER_02 (49:35):
So yes, absolutely.
Can I tell you a sweet storyabout one of my kids?
And this is in my mind thebeauty of dogs and kids
together.
Um, he was about four years oldwhen we lost our older dog.

(49:56):
And we had a puppy, a goldenretriever puppy at the time.
And we were all very sad whenBoomer, when we lost Boomer, and
we decided we would bury him,and everyone was gonna go get a
favorite thing of boomers tobring for the burial.

(50:17):
And so we showed up with tennisballs, favorite foods, leash,
the things that Boomer reallyloved.
And we said, Where's Jake?
That's the four-year-old.
And we called him and he camerunning down the driveway with
the puppy in his arms, ready tosay, This is what I brought to

(50:41):
Barry with Boomer because it'sso special to him.

SPEAKER_00 (50:44):
Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 (50:45):
Isn't that sweet?

SPEAKER_00 (50:48):
That is very sweet.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (50:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kids and animals are a greatcombination.

SPEAKER_00 (50:55):
Yeah.
Having pets with kids also itteaches kids about loss and
resiliency.
Yes.
Kids go a long time beforesomebody important to them dies.

SPEAKER_03 (51:05):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (51:06):
And they don't build that experience.
And so for some kids, they'rejust fine.
And for others, it it reallyaffects them without it hurts,
yes.
Without having that builtformatively when they're young.
Not that you wish death anddestruction on children, but
like it is it's inevitable.
Yeah, it's something from havingpets that builds builds

(51:27):
resiliency in kids thatabsolutely the research points
to.
Yeah.
That is a very sweet story.
I usually end with a pet storyfrom our guest's life.
Do you have another like toshare?
Do you have a favorite pet storybeyond that one?

SPEAKER_02 (51:44):
Oh, I've got lots and lots of them.
Let's see.
This was a scary story.
This one doesn't involve kids,though.
Is that okay?

SPEAKER_00 (51:54):
Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (51:55):
Okay.
Um, you know how dogs, whenthey've been traumatized in some
way, let's say they get bumpedor they fall, what do they do?
They get up and they shake itoff, right?

SPEAKER_00 (52:11):
They are right back in it.

SPEAKER_02 (52:13):
Yes.
And so we had a little dog namedLexi, who was maybe a border
collie-ish mix, and we were onthe California coast at a place
called Goat Rock.
And again, not supervising asadequately as we should have
been, we were throwing a stickin both of our dogs at the time

(52:35):
we're chasing it.
And Lexi kind of wandered intothe water to get a stick and got
swept out by a massive riptide.

SPEAKER_05 (52:45):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (52:46):
And she literally disappeared for probably 10
seconds.
And when she reappeared, she wasway out in the surf.
And I wasn't going to go inbecause I was six months
pregnant at the time.
And I really didn't want myhusband to go in.
It just felt so dangerous.

(53:07):
And there were some kids, someguys on the beach who were
probably in their late teens,and they saw what happened.
And the three of them just wentright out into the water after
her.
And within about five minutes,which that scared the bejeebis
out of me, but within about fiveminutes, Lexi found a way to

(53:30):
just ride the waves in.
She rode a wave in onto theshore and shook herself off.
And then it was a matter ofthese guys getting in safely.
And one of them almost did notmake it.
The surf was so rough, itliterally tore his clothes off
of his body.

SPEAKER_05 (53:49):
Wow.

SPEAKER_02 (53:50):
So that had a happy ending, but that was a really
scary story with Lexi.
Yeah.
So that's a family story thatwas a scary one, but it did have
a happy ending.

SPEAKER_00 (54:03):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (54:03):
And it it just tells you how chill dogs are about
when things happen.

SPEAKER_00 (54:10):
Yeah, tell me about it.

SPEAKER_02 (54:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (54:13):
I have on video, it's one of the one of our
greatest stories about Bunsenwas when we got Beaker.
She was a little thing.
She's a very small goldenretriever, and we live on a farm
in Canada.
Coyote, a coyote attackedBeaker, just came out of
nowhere.
And Bunsen chased it off, right?

(54:33):
He saved Beaker's life.
And then he came back after likechasing off a coyote, and
there's the pack is howling atus.
And he's it was I was spooked.
And he was like Mr.
Nonchalant, like nothing.
Just dude, let's go.
Yes.
He was like in no hurry to leavethe area.
He was great.

(54:56):
And just I couldn't believe it.
It was like a near-deathexperience, and he was just
fine.

SPEAKER_02 (55:03):
I I have a similar story to share, which is I was
out in the pasture with my twodogs, Nellie, who was all of 11
pounds.
Uh, she played Toto in theWizard of Oz, a Wizard of Oz
production.
And Quinn, who is the dog Istill have, he's 17 years old
now and still going strong.

SPEAKER_00 (55:22):
Oh, good for him.

SPEAKER_02 (55:23):
And I witnessed a coyote pounce on Nelly, and she
screamed, and Quinn went intothis very vocal sort of martial
arts jumping in the air routinein front of this coyote.
He it was bizarre.
And the coyote dropped Nelly,the little dog, and ran.

(55:48):
It was just so weird.
He too saved her life.

SPEAKER_00 (55:52):
I love it.

SPEAKER_02 (55:52):
Yeah, me too.
Dogs are great.

SPEAKER_00 (55:55):
They are great.

SPEAKER_02 (55:56):
They sure are.

SPEAKER_00 (55:58):
Well, Nancy, we're at the end of our chat.
Thank you so much for giving upyour time to talk to us on the
show.

SPEAKER_02 (56:03):
It's been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 (56:04):
Yeah, it's been really informative and
insightful, and of course, verywith some sweet stories there.
Thank you so much.
You bet.
We'll make sure that your authorbook page is in our show notes.
That's great.
Drnancyk.com.
Yes.
And then are you on social mediaanywhere else or just direct
people to that link?

SPEAKER_02 (56:23):
I would direct people to that link.
And maybe you can also put upthe link for a dog named 647.
Sure.
Like the Amazon site website.

SPEAKER_00 (56:32):
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 (56:33):
Yeah.
That'd be great.

SPEAKER_00 (56:34):
We will make sure those, if you're listening,
everybody, we'll make sure bothof those links.

SPEAKER_02 (56:38):
Oh, and the other thing is my Substack.
I write a Substack every week.

SPEAKER_00 (56:41):
Okay.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (56:42):
And so that's K K A Y N dotsubstack.com.

SPEAKER_00 (56:48):
Okay.
Perfect.
If you send me the link, yeah,the hyperlink, then when the
we'll make sure that's in theshow notes as well.

SPEAKER_02 (56:55):
Great.
Thanks, Jason, so much.

SPEAKER_00 (56:57):
Okay.
Take care of yourself and thanksagain for being a guest.

SPEAKER_02 (57:00):
It's been a pleasure.
Take care.
Goodbye.

SPEAKER_00 (57:02):
That's it for this week's show.
Thanks for coming back weekafter week to listen to the
Science Podcast.
And a shout out to all the topdogs.
That's the top tier of ourPatreon community, The Pop Pack.
You can sign up in our shownotes.
All right, Chris, let's hearthose names that are part of the
Top Dogs.

SPEAKER_01 (57:19):
Amelia Fete, Ree Oda, Carol Pino, Jennifer
Challen, Linnea Janet, KarenCronister, Vicky Oteiro, Christy
Walker, Sarah Brown, WendyDiane, Mason and Lou, Helen
Chin, Elizabeth Bourgeois,Marianne McNally, Katherine
Jordan, Shelly Smith, LauraSteffenson, Tracy Leinbaugh, Ann

(57:42):
Uchida, Heather Burback, Kelly,Tracy Halbert, Ben Rather,
Debbie Anderson, Sandy Primer,Mary Rader, Bianca Hyde, Andrew
Lynn, Brenda Clark, BrianneHawts, Peggy McKeel, Holly
Birch, Kathy Zirker, SusanWagner, and Liz Button.

SPEAKER_00 (58:00):
For science, empathy, and cuteness.
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