November 21, 2025 • 57 mins
A vaccine built for a virus might be whispering a powerful message to cancer care. We dig into a new Nature paper suggesting that mRNA COVID shots could enhance the effectiveness of checkpoint inhibitor immunotherapy—especially in non‑small cell lung cancer and melanoma—by acting as an immune alarm that sharpens anti‑tumor responses. The data is retrospective, not causal, so we break down why the signal is exciting, where confounders can hide, and what the next generation of trials must test: timing, vaccine type, biomarkers, and who stands to benefit most.
From there, we switch gears to the first weeks of a dog’s life. A small but detailed study of Australian breeders maps nine practical socialization steps—novel objects, varied surfaces, calibrated sound exposure, hands‑on handling, human visitors, other animals, off‑site trips, car rides, and rotating environments—that build confident, adaptable companions. We compare three rearing strategies, from uniform protocols to individual puppy plans, and connect these choices to fewer fear issues, better training outcomes, and smoother vet and grooming visits down the line.
Journalist and author Melanie Kaplan joins us to share Hammy’s story—a beagle rescued from a research lab—and the deeper reporting behind her book, Lab Dog: A Beagle and His Human Investigate the Surprising World of Animal Research. We talk about why beagles became the default lab dog, the emotional toll and resilience of retired animals, and the promising rise of non‑animal alternatives like organs‑on‑chips, human cell models, and computational toxicology. With FDA and NIH signaling support for methods that are more humane and more predictive, there’s a real path to better science with less harm.
If this conversation moved you or made you think, follow the show, share it with a friend who loves science and animals, and leave a quick review to help others find us.
Links to Melanie's Book and Socials
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:09):
Hello, science enthusiasts.
I'm Jason Zakowski.
SPEAKER_01 (00:12):
And I'm Chris Zakoski.
SPEAKER_00 (00:14):
We're the pet parents of Bunsen, Beaker,
Bernoulli, and Ginger.
SPEAKER_01 (00:18):
The science animals on social media.
If you love science and you lovepets, you've come to the right
spot.
So put on your safety glassesand hold on to your tail.
SPEAKER_00 (00:29):
This is the Science Podcast.
And welcome back to the SciencePodcast.
We hope you're happy and healthyout there.
This is episode 33 of seasonseven.
There's snow on the ground, andLil Kitty has been with us for
three, is it three weeks nowwe've had bricks?
SPEAKER_01 (00:46):
No.
No, we've had him for two weeks.
SPEAKER_00 (00:49):
Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_01 (00:50):
He's doubled in size, it feels like he has a
little pot belly because heloves food.
Does he?
Oh no.
I know.
I've I'm like, is this just apot belly, or is it because
you've just had some food andyour belly is full and you need
to go to the bathroom?
SPEAKER_00 (01:06):
Oh, he does love food.
He yells at me when you're notaround for food, but I have to
know.
I think we have to write downwhat we're feeding him.
Um it's not like he's not likehe's obese anything.
He's doing fine.
SPEAKER_01 (01:20):
He's growing.
Yeah, he's a healthy little boy.
He's so cute.
SPEAKER_00 (01:25):
It's very cool seeing his interaction with the
dogs, too, because Bernoulli isinfatuated with him, follows him
around everywhere, and Bunsenjust at him, and sometimes
Bunsen comes up to say hello,which is really cool.
Because he didn't really do thatwith ginger.
I think he was a little gingershy.
SPEAKER_01 (01:40):
To be fair, ginger is terrifying.
SPEAKER_00 (01:43):
She is, she is, she's got mean girl energy.
And Beaker has been accepting ofthe little guy.
Like he bricks has gotten reallyclose to her, and she hasn't
really cared, which is cool.
SPEAKER_01 (01:56):
I like that part, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:58):
Yeah.
So it was been a fun two weeks,very busy, but fun two weeks.
Let's get on with that.
Let's get on with what'shappening on the podcast this
week.
So, in science news, we're goingto talk about some unintended
consequences of the mRNA COVIDvaccines for the good.
If you've been following thenews on health and wellness,
(02:18):
you've probably already seenthis study because it came out
in October.
But I figured we would talkabout it today as we're heading,
at least in Alberta, into coldand flu season.
In pet science, a really coolstudy from, I believe it's
Australia, that looked at dogbreeders and what they do to
socialize the little puppiesbefore they're sent on their
way.
(02:39):
Um, because that is perhaps oneof the things that breeders who
you get a dog from do a reallygood job of, or where they could
do a better job of, or somethingto think about for the dogs that
maybe come from a shelter thatdon't have that same kind of
socialization as a puppy.
SPEAKER_01 (02:56):
Exactly.
That's a really important pointto consider when you're looking
at getting a new puppy.
SPEAKER_00 (03:03):
And our guests and ask an expert is called Lab Dog,
which her beagle was one of thedogs that she her dog is a
beagle that she rescued frombeing a lab dog that would be
tested on.
And she went down the rabbithole of researching the whole
that whole side of science usingdogs and other animals for
(03:26):
testing.
It's a really good discussion,the goods and the bads, and the
uglies and the hope for thefuture.
All right, let's get on with theshow.
There's no time like ScienceTime.
This week in Science News, as Imentioned, a cool study was a
cool study was published inOctober 22nd in Nature that
looked at an unintendedconsequence of those mRNA
(03:47):
COVID-19 vaccines.
Now, if you want to think backto the pandemic, Chris, we got
our COVID vaccines to do ourpart and um stop the spread.
Do you remember I do?
SPEAKER_01 (03:57):
I remember it was frustrating because we were not
eligible to receive them.
And we had to wait, I guess,until the second or third round
in order to be able to havethem.
SPEAKER_00 (04:08):
Yeah, I just remember it was like a different
COVID-19 vaccine every time.
And I made the joke, I made thejoke I was trying to collect all
of them like Thanos wascollecting his infinity stones.
I did not collect all of them,which is too bad.
unknown (04:24):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (04:25):
So what is the study looking at?
Then this new research suggestedthat mRNA COVID vaccines
enhances the effectiveness ofcertain cancer treatments,
especially immunotherapy.
Lung cancer patients whoreceived the COVID vaccine
within a few months ofimmunotherapy lived, this is
shocking, twice as long as thosewho did not.
SPEAKER_01 (04:47):
A similar pattern was also observed in melanoma
patients, but that hinted at abroader effect.
And so these results areconsidered compelling.
These vaccines traditionallyteach the immune system by
encoding proteins, very similar,exactly like the COVID uh spike
(05:08):
protein that the body learns torecognize.
And so cancer-targeted mRNAvaccines normally encode tumor
protein fragments, which trainsthe immune system to attack
cancer.
But the breakthrough findingfound that the cancer vaccine
did not contain tumor mRNA.
(05:29):
Their experimental mRNA cancervaccine actually did not contain
tumor mRNA.
But when it was combined withtheir immunotherapy drugs, the
mRNA itself actually triggered astrong antitumor immune
response.
So, what does that suggest?
This suggests that mRNAmolecules may act as a molecular
(05:52):
alarm signal, like a 911 callprompting the immune system to
fight the cancer.
So someone call 911, we need toprompt the immune system, which
is actually really cool.
SPEAKER_00 (06:20):
So they got the data from reviewing electronic health
records of a thousand patientswith non-small cell lung cancer
who had received a checkpointinhibitor immunotherapy.
So that's the drug that you'retalking about, Chris.
Uh 200 patients had received anmRNA COVID vaccine within 100
days of starting theimmunotherapy.
When they looked at three-yearsurvival comparison, 56% of
(06:42):
vaccinated patients were stillalive compared to 31% of
unvaccinated patients.
And a very similar pattern wasobserved in melanoma patients.
As you said, this hints atpotentially many different types
of cancers that were tackled inmuch the same way.
This is very cool.
SPEAKER_01 (06:59):
Yeah, Jason, this has such huge implications for
cancer treatment.
Now, one of the cautions is it'snot, it hasn't been through
clinical trials, but if it'sconfirmed in clinical trials,
the findings could actuallyrepresent a major shift in what
we do or how cancer is treatedor shift in cancer therapy.
(07:22):
Okay, as we know, mRNA COVIDvaccines are already widely
available and they have beenproven safe, and they could be
an additional tool to boost theeffects of immunotherapy.
So, what does that do?
That potentially opens a pathwayfor using mRNA platforms beyond
an infectious disease, and itcould have implications in
(07:46):
oncology.
SPEAKER_00 (07:48):
So we should, as you said, Chris, it has been through
clinical trials, and this studypublished by the researchers
emphasized that this iscorrelation, not causation.
They have to actually do thestudy and work through the
science to see if it does causea huge boost in the alarm system
to fight off cancer in yourbody.
SPEAKER_01 (08:08):
So before they're going to begin enrolling
patients by the end of the year,they're hoping to prepare a
trial.
So they're trying to block sowhat the hope is to begin
enrolling patients by the end ofthe year by preparing a trial.
And until that's available,let's just use strong caution
(08:31):
until those controlled resultsare available.
SPEAKER_00 (08:36):
This is interesting because there's a lot of
misinformation out there from avery small number of people
about how the COVID vaccineswere unsafe and millions upon
millions of people died, oreverybody who got the shot is
going to die soon.
And of course, that hasn'thappened.
The pandemic was a long timeago.
Um, so there is a relativelysmall group of people with a
(08:57):
large megaphone spreading a lotof misinformation and skepticism
about those mRNA vaccines.
And this is an unbelievably goodside effect of those of us who
have taken it.
It may help you fight cancer.
And as you said, Chris, we justgot to wait and see and wait for
the science to come through tosee if that's actually if it's
cause and effect.
It's very cool.
SPEAKER_01 (09:18):
It is very cool.
It's a very good outlook, apositive outlook in terms of
cancer research and cancertreatment.
SPEAKER_00 (09:25):
All right, that's science news for this week in
Pet Science.
Let's talk about why puppybreeders matter for puppy
development.
Now, Bricks is a rescue, but ina way, Bricks did come from a
situation where he had a lot ofsocialization.
We don't know a lot about beakerbecause we got beaker during
(09:45):
COVID.
So that was a whole very weirdsituation, meaning that like we
didn't really see much ofanything of the people.
We just showed up and gotbeaker.
I think she scampered out of thedoor because we had to maintain
social distancing.
SPEAKER_01 (10:01):
Yeah, they basically pushed her out the door.
Yeah, that was such a weirdthing and then Adam caught her.
SPEAKER_00 (10:06):
And then I cried.
I had a huge cry when I pickedher up that little dog.
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01 (10:11):
Oh my goodness, she was such a music.
SPEAKER_00 (10:14):
Yeah, but Bunsen came from a Swiss family, and
they didn't have a big outfit,they just had a male and female
dog, and I think they had one ortwo litters a year, if that.
And Bernoulli, Bernoulli camefrom an oopsie way up north.
I don't I think they wereeventually planning to breed the
male and female they have, butit was just happened
(10:34):
unexpectedly.
SPEAKER_01 (10:36):
Yeah, but it was good for us because we love
Bernoulli.
SPEAKER_00 (10:39):
Oh, yeah, what a stroke of luck getting that dog.
So here's the here's thebackground for the study.
Um, historically, dogs, ofcourse, are bred for functional
traits, and they have a bunch ofphysical traits that we've
picked out as humans for thedogs that we want.
There's over 350 recognized dogbreeds, and dogs increasingly
(11:00):
serve as companions now insteadof perhaps what they were bred
for.
Like back in the day, of course,some dogs were bred as
companions, but they weredefinitely bred for more
physical tasks.
They really help with huntingand herding and guarding.
So most owners now want dogsthat are friendly and
(11:22):
affectionate.
They listen and you can trainthem.
And of course, they're safe withkids.
Now, because many pet dogs aredissexed and don't breed, most
new pet dogs acquired aredirectly from breeders or pet
shops or rescues or shelters.
So this is made a pretty bigbreeding industry for large
(11:47):
commercial breeders and smallbreeders.
Now, I would say where we gotBunsen, Beaker, and Berilli from
were very small because theyjust had a male and female dog.
That's it.
SPEAKER_01 (11:59):
Yeah, that's true.
So they just had one to twolitters per year.
It wasn't maybe less, or itwasn't just a that large
commercial organizationproducing hundreds of litters
annually.
And I loved that for us becausethen we were able to talk about
the parents and other thingslike that and be more on a an
intimate basis with theknowledge that we got.
SPEAKER_00 (12:21):
Yeah, I remember Bunsen's dad.
What his name was Benny?
Is he still he might still bealive?
But Benny, I think.
SPEAKER_01 (12:28):
Yeah, Benny.
SPEAKER_00 (12:29):
Benny and Masha.
Masha was the mom, and Masha wasso sweet.
Do you remember how sweet shewas?
So sweet.
So I think Bunsen got thatsweetness, but Benny was also on
point.
Like watching over everybodymaking sure nobody messed with
the little puppies.
So Bunsen got that as well.
SPEAKER_01 (12:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:51):
But, anyways, so for puppies of three to twelve weeks
of age, that's a criticalsocialization period where their
experiences have a verylong-lasting effect on their
behavior.
And in a lot of countries,breeders are legally required to
keep them up until eight weeksof age.
So this means that the breedercontrols most of the
(13:14):
socialization period.
And not a lot of goodinformation has been done about
what happens during that time.
So that's where the study comesin.
That's a long preamble becausethe study was looking to see in
Australian dog breeders, a verysmall, like a relatively small
sample, but in detail, how thepuppies developed and if there
(13:35):
were any socializationpractices, and then how the
breeders made decisions aboutrearing and socialization for
those litters and thepersonalities of individual
puppies.
So I thought that was cool.
SPEAKER_01 (13:48):
So they, you're right.
The sample size is 14 dogbreeders in Australia, and they
were from multiple areas inAustralia.
So like Victoria and New SouthWales, Queensland, Tasmania, and
Western Australia.
And of those breeders wereapproved commercial breeders.
And the recruitment for thestudy, they did uh puppy
(14:09):
advertisement on websites.
And then what they did isinterviews in semi-structured
format.
And those interviews wereconducted either by the phone or
in person in 2019.
And what happened was this isthe part I like because this is
the research that I did in mymaster's where there was audio
(14:32):
recorded and then transcribedverbatim, and then using like an
inductive content analysis part.
So that's the part that I liketalking about is like coding and
getting the data into categoriesand subcategories.
So I can get really excitedabout that, but I think it's
best if we basically get to thefindings of what they found.
SPEAKER_00 (14:56):
So one of the first big findings was that they found
all breeders did somesocialization.
And there was nine differenttypes.
I don't know if we have time togo through all of them, but they
seem to remind me of what uhChar at Waggles does in those
puppy training classes.
Like she does, she seems to naila lot of these, like exposure to
novel objects.
(15:16):
So new toys, and that's like toincrease exploration, make sure
that dogs or the puppies feelsafe when something new comes
along.
SPEAKER_01 (15:25):
And it also prevents the environment from becoming
boring.
And so, like when we're doingour puppy training, it's hey,
make it fun.
Who wants to be like sit in yourseat and do work?
Not the dogs.
They want to have a fun time ontheir mat and roll around and
run around with their friends,etc., etc.
An example of that is like puppyactivity gyms with PVC and
(15:47):
hanging toys and objects androtating the objects in the
environment, which is what I'vebeen doing with bricks.
I don't know, he's a cat, butI'm like, I think he's a little
tired of this toy, so I'm gonnaswitch it out.
SPEAKER_00 (15:57):
Yeah, keeping it fresh and new.
Uh, they found that breedersexpose the puppies to different
surfaces, and we did thatactually with uh puppy training
with Shar.
Um, like I think she had icepacks on the ground, so it felt
cold because we were doing thisin the summer, obviously, but
different textures too, likerocks, carpet, floorboards, and
whatever.
Uh, they exposed the puppies todifferent sounds.
(16:19):
A lot of the breeders hadsoundtracks that played
thunderstorms, crowds, childrenlaughing, and zooming airplane
sounds.
That's cool.
They started when the puppieswere really little at low
volume, and then they graduallyincreased the noise.
Isn't that interesting?
That's cool.
SPEAKER_01 (16:37):
Yeah, I think that's really cool.
It reduces their sensitivity tonoise for later in life.
SPEAKER_00 (16:43):
Yeah.
They handled them quite a bitand physically manipulated their
body.
So you don't want a puppy tonever have somebody touch their
feet or their ears.
So they did that with thepuppies.
They bathed and blow dried them,they nail clipped them and filed
them.
They used toys that vibrated ormade noise.
So that simulated like thosegrinders, the Dremel that you
(17:05):
might use on their nails.
And of course, this preparespuppies for veterinarian exams,
getting groomed and generalhuman contact.
There was a video, I don't knowif you saw it, Chris.
I reposted it to our story ofthese little Bernice Mountain
Dog puppies getting a bath andthen getting blow dried.
So when you give a when BerniceMountain Dog gets wet, they're
(17:26):
all their fur clings to theirbody and they're not floofy
anymore.
And these little puppies looklike little kind of drowned
rats, but they were big becausethey're Bernice Mountain Dogs.
And then they got blow dried andthey turned into these sharks
that were fluffy and so happy.
So it was very cute.
And the puppies seemed to be,yeah.
So obviously, they were doingthe this lots with the puppies
(17:48):
because they could they didn'tcare they were getting a bath
and they didn't care they weregetting blow dried.
That's good to have that kind ofdesensitization.
SPEAKER_01 (17:54):
I just remember picking up Bunsen and he was
like so fluffy because they hadgiven him a bath and blow dried
him, and he smelled so good.
So fluffy.
Oh my god, so cute.
I know.
SPEAKER_00 (18:04):
Yeah, love him.
Bernoulli was too, and we gothim.
He was so soft.
Oh my god.
Anyway, soft.
SPEAKER_01 (18:10):
Another thing they do is socialize with humans.
So the breeders actively exposepuppies to people beyond their
main family, including children,as well as staff, like school
volunteers or after schoolcareers.
They all, if the visitor came,people are keen to see the
puppies.
So that would be a goodopportunity to socialize with
(18:32):
humans.
Now, the visiting happened fromabout three to four weeks
onwards, generally done in thehome environment.
They were sometimes supplementedby trips outside the home.
And what that does is buildpositive associations with
people of different ages andappearances, so the puppy is
more confident in the world.
SPEAKER_00 (18:52):
And then some of the other categories are ones you'd
probably think of socializationwith other dogs and other
animals.
Maybe that's why Bernoulli lovescats so much, because they had
cats.
Didn't they?
Oh, they did.
SPEAKER_01 (19:04):
Yeah, they did.
They did.
SPEAKER_00 (19:04):
They had cats that were zooming around everywhere.
That's maybe that's whyBernoulli has glommed on the cat
so much.
But not just cats, but like farmanimals if they're on a farm,
like sheep and horses and cows.
Um, and then also socializingthem on and off-site.
So taking them to dog-friendlyplaces, obviously keeping making
sure the puppy is safe fromgetting infections, but car
(19:27):
travel too.
So these all are things that thebreeders do, and they found that
they do them, which is cool.
Now, this brings us to thesecond main finding, which was
how they approached to basicallyrearing the puppies.
And there were three rearingstrategies.
One was they reared the puppiesas a unit.
(19:47):
Everybody was treated the same,and they were all exposed to the
same things at the same time.
It was very efficient andmanageable, especially if you
have a Bernice Mountain Doglitter that's got 13 little
Bunsons or Bernoullies becausethat is chaos.
And what were the other tworearing methods, Chris?
SPEAKER_01 (20:04):
So they did a litter level flexibility cohort rearing
where the breeders adjustedplans based on the development
and behavior of each litter as awhole.
So a change might be oh, youknow what, you're ready to move
outdoors a little earlier or alittle later than you normally
would, or modifying the timingof specific exposures depending
(20:26):
on how confident or mature thelitter seems.
This recognizes that differentlitters or different breeds
actually may develop atdifferent speeds.
And yeah, and then you know, itdoes it takes more work.
But lastly, they did individualpuppy rearing, which is that
puppy level flexibility.
So deliberately observing theindividual differences within a
(20:48):
litter and knowing if one ofthem needed extra support and
handling for shy for being shyor reserved.
Maybe they provided a morechallenging and enriched
environment for bold, curiouspuppies.
And that the goal of that is tohelp each puppy reach its best
(21:08):
outcome, not just the average ofthe litter.
So, you know, they're notmutually exclusive, these
frameworks or these approaches.
The breeder may use a standardframework, they may adjust it
for each litter, and they canstill give special attention to
particular puppies as needed.
SPEAKER_00 (21:26):
We don't know much about Beaker, the families that
raised Bunsen and Bernoullibefore we got them, they had
special little stories aboutBunsen and Bernoulli, though
they weren't called Bunsen andBernoulli.
They knew about theirpersonalities, they knew about
them as little puppies.
SPEAKER_01 (21:42):
It was so cute how they knew them and being able to
articulate.
Yeah, he so Bernoulli wasn'tlike the number one out there
getting into mischief, but hedefinitely went along with it.
If mischief was happening, hewas right in there like a dirty
shirt.
SPEAKER_00 (21:58):
A lady, I forget her name, the lady that the mom of
Bunsen, she said he is kind andhe is affectionate.
That's I remember her telling methat.
He is a kind and affectionatepuppy.
Yes.
He's just a good boy.
Yeah.
All right.
What are some big takeaways fromthis?
(22:20):
Early experiences are crucialfor shaping adult dog behavior
and welfare.
The breeders in the study allreported levels of
socialization, some more thanothers, but they all were doing
it and they used a variety ofstrategies and experiences.
Some tailored it, as you said,Chris, to the litter and
individual needs, or some werejust like an all-encompassing
everybody does the same thingkind of thing.
(22:43):
They're doing what they shouldbecause they do play a central
role in preparing puppies forlife as companions.
SPEAKER_01 (22:49):
It's so cute.
I'm really grateful for the workthat they that they do to
prepare puppies for success inhomes in their forever homes.
SPEAKER_00 (22:59):
I don't know how you would do 10 Bernoullies.
Like he was wild as a puppy andso fun.
But like we were exhausted froma single puppy.
I can't imagine 10.
SPEAKER_01 (23:09):
Cannot imagine 10.
But you know what?
People have twins and peoplehave triplets and they do it.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (23:16):
Yeah, they're not mauling the cat though.
No, that's true.
All right, that's pet sciencefor this week.
It's time for Ask an Expert onthe Science Podcast, and I'm
thrilled to have journalist andauthor Melanie Kaplan with us
today.
Melanie, how are you doing?
SPEAKER_02 (23:34):
I am great, Jason.
How are you?
SPEAKER_00 (23:36):
I'm good.
I always ask our guests if theyare comfortable answering.
Where are you in the world?
Where are you calling into theshow from?
SPEAKER_02 (23:43):
Oh, yes, I am in Washington, DC, and I'm about
nine blocks east of the U.S.
Capitol.
So it's a very exciting place insome ways.
It's also just Capitol Hill is avery green neighborhood.
Sometimes I travel to otherparts of the country, and people
are like, oh, what is it likeliving in the capital of the
(24:04):
United States?
And I'm like, we have our littledog parks and our Trader Joe's,
and it's just like any otherneighborhood.
But today it's a kind of a grayday here.
SPEAKER_00 (24:13):
I would imagine it's much the same living in Ottawa,
Canada, our capital, too.
SPEAKER_02 (24:18):
Yeah, it's it's nice because if I go out for a run, I
can run around the Capitol andthe Washington Monument and run
by the Potomac River, and youcan also be in Maryland and
Virginia in a very short time.
So it just feels like a goodplace for to live.
And I love getting out on thewater on my paddleboard, and
(24:40):
it's a good place to bike.
And of course, I also lovegetting out of town and
traveling.
SPEAKER_00 (24:46):
You get to jog by all those landmarks that we see
in the movies that generallyeither get attacked by aliens or
a nice backdrop.
SPEAKER_02 (24:55):
That's right.
Well, I'll keep an eye on themto make sure they don't get
attacked.
SPEAKER_00 (24:59):
Yeah, so Hollywood says it's the first place they
go.
But, anyways, I mentioned you'rea journalist before we get into
the cool the big lead in thatyou've written a book about
dogs, lab dogs.
Could you tell us a little bitabout your journalism and the
writing you've done?
SPEAKER_02 (25:15):
Sure.
Yeah.
I've I feel like I've been awriter all of my life.
My mom encouraged me to writefrom the time I was very little.
And then I ended up being editorof my high school newspaper.
And yeah, it was called TheEagle.
And then I when I went tocollege, I studied more
(25:37):
television and radio, butbecause I just couldn't get, I
couldn't stay away from theprinted word, and ended up
starting freelancing prettyearly in my twenties and have
been doing that ever since.
And at the beginning, I wouldpretty much write for anybody
who would pay me.
And even sometimes for peoplewho didn't pay me, there'd be
(25:57):
some free publications you pickup at a restaurant, and I would
do little restaurant reviews andwrite for trade magazines and
write about real estate indifferent cities and literally
everything under the sun.
And the nice thing aboutsticking with it for a long time
is that I've been able to reallypick and choose a little bit
(26:18):
more about what I want to coverand write things that are really
of interest to me, or justassignments that are super fun.
So I got into some travelwriting and ended up writing
quite a bit of travel storiesfor the Washington Post.
SPEAKER_00 (26:35):
So when you become a like a travel writer slash
journalist, do you get to go tothose places or do you live
vicariously through Google orsomething like that?
SPEAKER_02 (26:46):
Generally, I would go to those places.
Of course, the pandemic was anexception because I ended up
writing about things.
I remember once the pandemicstarted, the editors wanted
ideas of things we could pitchwithout going anywhere.
So I was pitching stories likethe best travel books to read or
travel shows to watch.
(27:08):
That was interesting.
But generally I would go to theplaces and because of the way
newspapers, because of theirbudgets and the trajectory of
them the last decade or so, Istarted off getting expenses
paid, and then I had no expensespaid.
So people would say, Oh, getthem to send you here and here.
(27:30):
And I'm like, I pay for myselfto get there.
And then I sell them a travelstory, and it really didn't make
me a lot of money.
So I ended up writing some otherthings that paid better, but
maybe weren't quite as much fun.
So it's always a balance.
SPEAKER_00 (27:45):
Just a quick follow-up question.
We have we have a lot of peoplethat listen to our show that
love traveling.
Where have you been that you'veyou thought was cool if you've
if you could tell somebody to goto that place?
SPEAKER_02 (27:58):
I always recommend national parks and actually
write for National Parksmagazine too.
So I've been bird watching inBig Bend National Park and
sledding down sand dunes inGreat Sand Dunes National Park,
which I didn't even know thatexisted.
You literally get on a sled, orif you're really brave, you get
(28:21):
on it's like a snowboard and yougo down standing up, which I did
not trust myself doing that.
And oh my gosh, it's just somuch fun.
Each park really is unique andhas so much to offer.
And I just I hope that we cankeep our parks and keep them
safe and clean and keep all thenatural things protected because
(28:43):
it's such an amazing thing aboutthis country.
And I actually drove acrossCanada this summer and visited
some of the national parks inCanada that that have been on my
bucket list.
So I got to camp in Banff, andit was just as magical as I had
dreamed.
SPEAKER_00 (29:00):
Yeah, we are we have a very large social media
account with our dogs, and wetake them to the mountains,
which is just a hop, skip, and ajump from our house, right?
Because we live, you know, acouple hours from Banff.
And it never gets old driving upto the mountains.
And we have hikes that we lovethat are in the mountains there
that are just like little secrethikes, and there's a little
(29:22):
secret mountain lake in in justabove Canmore that we go to all
the time.
So yeah, it's a really prettyplace.
SPEAKER_02 (29:27):
Oh my gosh.
Does it so is it that color ofLake Louise?
SPEAKER_00 (29:31):
Yeah, it's aquamarine, and nobody nobody
goes there.
It's just a little bit of drive.
I'll tell you, people haveasked, it's called Goat Lake,
and generally you're the onlyperson on the entire lake.
SPEAKER_02 (29:45):
Oh, that is amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (29:47):
I go swimming in it if because I don't mind the cold
and paddleboarding and kayaking.
It's pretty fun.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (29:52):
Yeah.
I went paddleboarding on LakeLouise and got there to the
parking lot at 5 30 in themorning because I know.
That parking lot fills upquickly and just thought I gotta
do this.
I'm here once, and I was therewith my partner.
We put our paddle boards on thelake, and we were the only ones
out there, and it was just itwas unbelievable.
I will never forget being outthere and seeing the mountains
(30:14):
and the color of the water, andit truly was like a dream.
SPEAKER_00 (30:19):
I'm glad you got to experience a little bit of
Canada there.
Very cool.
SPEAKER_02 (30:23):
Yeah.
I will say I'm gonna talk alittle bit more about travel.
You can tell I don't enjoy thisat all.
I also love driving crosscountry, whether it's yours or
mine.
And I did take a train acrossthe U.S.
once, and that was definitely ahighlight of all of my travel
stories.
This particular one went fromWashington to Chicago and then
(30:45):
went through the Rockies to SanFrancisco.
You can also take one that goesup through Glacier National Park
in Montana and ends up inSeattle, and then there's
another one that goes south andends up, I think, in LA.
Going through the Rockies, youare on this on the tracks that
the cars are nowhere near.
Nobody ever sees this unlessyou're on a train.
(31:07):
And it was just as in January,so everything was covered in
snow.
And I remember bringing allthese books to read on the
train.
I never cracked one of them openbecause I was just looking out
the window the whole time.
SPEAKER_00 (31:18):
Is watching hay?
Yeah.
Very pretty.
Very cool.
That's and it's good to know alittle bit more about you.
I appreciate you sharing a bitabout that, Melanie.
So let's get to the lead, thereason why you're on the science
podcast, and that's about yourbook, Lab Dog.
And I was wondering, are authorsdon't generally want to tell
(31:41):
everything about the bookbecause you'd like people to
read it.
But in simple terms, what's itabout?
SPEAKER_02 (31:47):
So, Lab Dog, and I'll just say the subtitle
because that tells a little bit,it's called A Beagle and His
Human Investigate the SurprisingWorld of Animal Research.
And the part about a Beagle andHis Human is really the key
because the Beagle is Hammy.
And I adopted Hammy when he wasalmost four, and he'd spent the
(32:09):
previous years in some kind ofresearch lab.
And I didn't know anything abouthis background.
I adopted him in 2013, and itwas many years later when I just
realized I have a lot ofquestions about this.
Like, why are we breeding dogsfor research?
And what was his backgroundlike?
(32:32):
And is this changing?
Are we kind of phasing out dogsand other animals and using more
modern technologies?
And so being a journalist andjust being super curious, I
decided to set off on anadventure.
And I think I actually used thewhole road trip as a platform
for this.
And Hammy and I hopped in thecar, and over several years we
(32:55):
met a number of researchers andethicists and animal activists.
And I really tried to get abetter picture of what this
looks like.
What is dog research like today?
What have we learned from dogs?
And what's it look like in thefuture?
SPEAKER_00 (33:13):
And beagles, of course, are like one of the
go-to dogs in the animalresearch that that whole world,
which is tough to hear for sure.
SPEAKER_02 (33:24):
They are.
And beagles became the go-tobreed because they're small and
they don't eat as much as aGreat Dane.
So you can keep them in a kennelfor cheaper.
Um goes back to close to ahundred years ago, we had
brought beagles over to thiscountry for hunting.
(33:46):
And so there are all thesekennels, and they were trying to
breed a better beagle for to bea hunting dog.
And then when pharmaceuticalcompanies wanted to start
testing drugs, I think it was apretty easy pivot for them to
start breeding a better beaglefor medical testing and
research.
(34:07):
So they are the vast majority ofdogs used.
There are other dogs.
There are there have been Irishsetters and dachshunds and
golden retrievers, uh,greyhounds.
They've all been used forresearch, but it's mostly
beagles.
And of course, there's manyother animals.
The majority of animals used inresearch are mice and rats.
SPEAKER_00 (34:30):
Yeah.
Not to jump around too much, butso Hammy spent, I think you said
four years in a research lab.
Is that correct?
Did I get the time right?
SPEAKER_02 (34:40):
Almost four years, that's right.
SPEAKER_00 (34:41):
Almost four years, yeah.
Did you notice any ill effectsof that?
What is he okay?
Was he okay when you adoptedhim?
SPEAKER_02 (34:50):
So he seemed okay physically.
He had a little bit of a limp.
So maybe his leg got stuck in adoor of a kennel at some point,
or something else happened.
So he had a bit of a limp hiswhole life on his back leg when
whenever he started to run.
But mostly he was scared.
He, I assume, had never been outin the real world.
(35:12):
He was living in confinement.
And so the sounds of the cityand just really seeing things
out in the world or even in thehouse would really terrify him,
and he'd end up just trembling alot.
And it was months and monthsbefore we even got past that
first initial fear and trauma.
And, you know, I think thatstuck with him his whole life.
(35:35):
He got way more confident andcomfortable in the house, and he
started howling, and he got morecomfortable going to new places.
But there were still some soundsthat set him off and unusual
things that would trigger him.
And so I just did my best tomake sure he felt comfortable
and safe and spoiled.
(35:58):
I just figured whatever thefirst years of his life were
like, I wanted to make the restof his life just awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (36:05):
Yeah.
Man, like we have the people wholisten to our show, they love
their pets, right?
Family members, really.
And I can't even begin toimagine like our dogs being in a
research facility, and just it'swonderful that you got Hammy out
of that.
When you worked sorry, yeah.
(36:26):
I'm just trying to, I'm justtrying to process this because
it's awful, but I'm so glad thathe's with you.
I guess before we got into evenmore my questions about the
book, I'm just more curiousabout Hammy.
How did you adopt him?
How did you rescue him out ofthat situation?
SPEAKER_02 (36:40):
So I adopted him through an organization that
works specifically with labs toget dogs out and then get them
into homes.
It's a very small percentage ofdogs that can get out because
for most of them, you canimagine if they're testing drugs
or a pesticide, they're givingthem very high doses, way more
(37:00):
than we would take.
And then they have to euthanizethem and locate their tissues
and organs.
So there are some that don't gothrough that and that can be
adopted out.
And so I was lucky enough to,you know, I volunteered to
foster one of these dogs.
And then, of course, once hecame into my life and I got to
know him a little bit, Irealized that this was gonna be
(37:23):
a very short foster situation.
But to your point, it was justincredibly hard thinking about
him in a lab.
And I had to do that just aspart of the writing process and
thinking about what hisbackground might have been like,
and I had so many questions.
But when I had to actually thinkabout this one individual being
(37:46):
that who I loved so much in thatsituation, it was just it was
really difficult and painfulevery time.
SPEAKER_00 (37:54):
I've always said I I don't know if you've seen the
John Wick movies, but I totallyunderstand that if something
happened to one of my dogs, manyRussian goons would have a bad
day.
SPEAKER_02 (38:05):
Yes.
Exactly.
They're absolutely family, andthey in some ways they know us
better than anybody.
They spend so much time with usmore than any of my friends.
Like Hammy was by my side allthe time.
SPEAKER_00 (38:24):
Now, we have probably people listening who
are just like furious and angry.
Um, when you when you talk tothe researchers, they're I don't
want to say that it's a hundredpercent justified, but there's a
reason for this.
What did you learn anythingsurprising behind it?
That's my question, becausethat's honestly something I
don't know anything about.
SPEAKER_02 (38:47):
I set out to I really wanted to find the people
who researched on Hammy.
And my dream was to talk to themand introduce them to Hammy, and
then they would fall in lovewith him and apologize.
And I don't think I'm givingaway too much by saying that did
not happen.
I went on a journey and gotdifferent answers than the ones
(39:10):
I was expecting.
But what I did learn from themis that they feel good about
their work, they don't haveregrets, they didn't apologize
for it, and they feel like theyare making the world a better
place.
There are a lot of people outthere, adults and children, that
have rare diseases and they arejust desperate for a cure.
(39:34):
And the way we've been doingresearch for centuries is by
using animals as models.
And that's we've learned a lotfrom them, right?
I've taken drugs, I've hadsurgeries, like that many of
those things might not havehappened in the way they
happened without this animalresearch.
But we also have all thesemodern things now.
(39:55):
We've got computer modeling andAI and little organs on chips,
which are these tiny littlesilicone things that you can put
organ cells into, human cells,and then you put the drugs in
and you see how the cells react.
And these things are justexploding in popularity, and
we're continuing to develop newthings.
(40:16):
And so I think what's reallyimportant to look at is are we
doing the best we can now?
And are we really justified inharming these animals that tens
of millions every year that arestill being harmed?
SPEAKER_00 (40:31):
Yeah, it's a it's is a very tough subject.
I'm my day job, I teach highschool chemistry and science.
And in our curriculum, I have totalk about LD50, which is lethal
dose 50.
Right, that's part of thecurriculum, and of course,
that's with these grade ninekids.
And that it's all about animaltesting.
Like usually I don't bring upthat it's beagles, but it's mice
(40:54):
or rats, and that is a verytough kind of thing to tell kids
that in the past and maybe eventoday we have a better quality
of life at the expense of theseanimals.
And that was the decisionsociety made.
And it's a tough, it is a toughthing to talk about with kids
because um they would gladly,and many people would gladly
(41:18):
have a worse, they would saythey would have a worse quality
of life if the animal wouldn'tsuffer.
But perhaps when it comes downto push to shove, you would make
a different decision.
But that is uh I you do talkabout in the book the big
developments of the promisingareas in non-human, non-animal
(41:39):
testing.
So that's cool.
We should go that route if wecan, obviously.
SPEAKER_02 (41:44):
Yeah, yes, for sure.
And I think there's been such along history of the animal
activists on one side and thebiomedical researchers on the
other side.
And I'm seeing little glimpsesof the sides coming together and
they all want to move forwardwith this.
And the researchers say, oh, ifwe didn't have to test on
animals, we wouldn't.
(42:05):
Um, but what is that line?
And for the animals, maybe wechange some things in the labs.
We say that there's going to bean upper limit to the pain they
can experience.
Right now, that limit doesn'texist.
If a researcher can justify it,they can do it.
There's certainly many thingsthat can change in the labs.
And that's interesting youmentioned the LD50 because I
(42:30):
researched that a little bit andfound out that it's used, it's
still used maybe among otherways, but with Botox, because I
guess each batch has to betested.
And I was really surprised tofind out about that.
I know there's an organizationin the UK that is fighting to
have all LD50 tests stopped by,I think it's the 100-year
(42:53):
anniversary, which is I want tosay coming up in the next few
years.
SPEAKER_00 (43:00):
And for people that are listening that maybe don't
know what LD50 is, that's thedose you give a population to
kill basically half of them.
So that's what LD50 stands for,in in the simplest terms.
Which is a spooky, awful termfor sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
As you were writing your book,did you hit parts of it that
(43:21):
were either tough to research ortough to you you did the
research and then it was time towrite about it?
Were there parts that were hardthere?
Because you do love your dogHammy so much.
I'd imagine some parts of itwere just like oof, like just a
gut punch.
SPEAKER_02 (43:36):
Yes, many times it was difficult.
And I just felt so stronglyabout telling this story.
And I would look at Hammy, and Ijust knew that I had to keep
going.
But certainly I had to takebreaks from the reading.
I had so many books andscientific papers, and there was
(43:58):
just so much material.
My brain felt like it was goingto explode, and some of it was
difficult to read.
I think part of the challenge inany storytelling is learning
what to put in and what to leaveout.
I obviously didn't need everydetail in the book, and I need
to needed to bring Hammy intothe story and weave him through
(44:18):
enough to keep the narrativeflowing and remind people why
this has become so important tome is because of the one I fell
in love with.
And he was always a goodreminder, and he was always a
good therapy dog when I neededit.
SPEAKER_00 (44:37):
So your book has recently come out, and I know
sometimes real life catches upto uh what perhaps you had
started to research, and therewere in the future laws or
changes to state laws or nanational laws about animal
testing.
I know it reached Canadian newsthat there was some musing uh by
(44:58):
the American administration tolook at banning testing on dogs.
And I'm wondering if that poppedup on your book research.
SPEAKER_02 (45:05):
Yeah, my manuscript was finished last December,
which in some ways was just avery tidy wrapping up of that
story.
And then so much began to changereally after January because the
new administration has talked ina number of ways about reducing
animal testing and devoting moreresources to these non-animal
(45:29):
methods.
Both the Food and DrugAdministration and the NIH have
said that animal testing is noteffective.
There's a crazy statistic thatmore than 90% of drugs that are
successful in animal tests endup failing in human clinical
(45:49):
trials because either they'retoxic or they just don't work.
So that's a huge amount of timeand money that these drug
companies are spending to not beable to get a drug to market.
So, of course, they would liketo have something more
effective.
And that's not even talkingabout the ethics part of it.
So, anyway, it's reallyencouraging that the
(46:11):
administration is talking aboutthis because previous
administrations have not said itthat bluntly that we need to
move away from animal researchand develop these modern
methods.
And so that's exciting.
I'll also add there's a wholeclass of drugs that the FDA is
now saying they don't requireanimal tests for, which is a
(46:33):
huge step.
And I think we're all justwaiting to see what else is
going to happen.
There's been really no change inpolicy, no change in the laws.
The Animal Welfare Act, whichwas passed in 1966, still only
covers some animals.
Like it doesn't cover any miceor rats or fish or birds.
(46:57):
And so that's very limiting interms of the reg regulation.
So there's a lot more we can doto protect animals and to make
sure that we're just being mostefficient with all of this
research and testing.
SPEAKER_00 (47:10):
Yeah, sounds like that could use an update.
I'm I'm probably I'm prettycertain Canada is very similar
to whatever's whatever's on thebooks in the States.
I you piqued my interest tocheck into my own country about
what's what our laws and rulesare.
So I have no idea.
SPEAKER_02 (47:26):
You guys, you guys have had some news on dogs and
research this year.
SPEAKER_00 (47:31):
Oh, more than me.
Oh, okay.
I must have missed that.
SPEAKER_02 (47:36):
I don't know enough to talk about, but there was
something I can't remember.
It wasn't yeah, it was like St.
Joseph's Hospital, maybe inOntario, but there was several
months ago, there were a lot ofnews stories about some dogs and
research there.
So that's all I can tell you.
SPEAKER_00 (47:52):
Oh yeah, 20 September and September of this
year.
SPEAKER_02 (47:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (47:56):
Strategy to reduce animal testing affect the number
of test chemicals, drugs, orminimal.
So yeah, I'll have to look intothat.
SPEAKER_02 (48:04):
I do have a chapter, it's what I call the good
research.
And this is research with dogswho are pets.
And just like human clinicaltrials, there are such things as
clinical trials with dogs.
So if your dog has a type ofcancer, you can actually go in
the United States at least andsee if there are ongoing trials
(48:26):
and sign your dog up.
And in many cases, all of the,if you're accepted in the trial,
all of the costs of thetreatment are covered, and they
might be using an experimentaldrug or repurposing a human
drug.
But the idea is that they learnsomething from this.
Either it helps your dog or ithelps future generations of
(48:47):
dogs.
Maybe it also helps humans, butit's a very dog-focused thing.
And the dogs, of course, aregoing back and living in their
homes and not confined in alaboratory.
So that's interesting, I think.
And the other thing I'll say isthat I spoke to a number of
scientists at PETA, and I don'tknow how active they are in
(49:09):
Canada, but I think theirreputation has generally been
just really radical, and that'sbeen their way since they were
founded.
And that still is the way in alot of cases.
But what I discovered is thatthey have such a robust science
division.
They've got something calledscience advancement and
(49:30):
outreach, and they've got PhDsand so many scientists working
on the alternatives.
And they literally go to thesecompanies that are testing on
animals, and they they try totalk them into using some of the
non-animal alternatives.
Sometimes they donate expensivemachines.
(49:51):
As a science teacher, you mightstill have dissection in your
school that they donate thesevery lifelike-looking frogs to
schools across the country thatare made by Cyndaver.
And they're just incrediblyactive in a way that I had no
idea.
So that was that was really aneye-opener and hope that more
(50:12):
people get to learn about theirthe just the robustness of their
science breadth and depth.
SPEAKER_00 (50:19):
That is interesting.
That's not something I knewabout.
Okay, cool.
Yeah.
Yeah, and to your point, thedissections we've done in my
career, they've changed quite abit, for sure.
SPEAKER_02 (50:30):
Oh, that's good.
So are you using simulated oranimal models there?
SPEAKER_00 (50:36):
No, but what we've, for example, when we do animal
dissections, there is it's youit might be grizzly, but there
is a massive pig processingplant in the same city.
So the parts that would not beused for human consumption, they
are set aside for thedissections that the schools
(50:58):
would use.
So that's not the animals aregoing to be dead anyways, due to
for the meat industry.
So instead of, I guess, seekingthem out, that's one way the
school has changed a bit.
SPEAKER_02 (51:09):
Yeah, yeah.
No, that's a step in the rightdirection.
SPEAKER_00 (51:12):
Yeah, and I have seen the like they do, we don't
do frog dissections anymore.
They're all done, they're donevirtually too.
So that's one one way.
And I know there's like thelifelike ones, which are also
very cool.
I've seen those at teachers'conventions.
SPEAKER_02 (51:24):
So yeah, that's where I first saw one.
It was it really blew me away.
It was so like jiggly, and youcut it open, and there's a whole
set of organs, and you can reuseparts of it when you do another
dissection.
And because of course they'renot cheap, none of this stuff is
at the beginning, but hopefullymore and more people in
classrooms will use it.
(51:44):
And um, that just seems like anobvious step toward being kinder
to animals.
SPEAKER_00 (51:51):
I agree.
Yeah.
So the thanks, thanks fortalking to us a little bit about
your book.
And the I apologize, I did notget the full name of the book.
That's Lab Dog, a Beagle and HisHuman Investigate the Surprising
World of Animal Research.
And folks can pick that upbasically anywhere that sells
books.
SPEAKER_02 (52:12):
Yeah, anywhere in the US and Canada, if your
bookstore doesn't have it,please ask them to carry it.
And they should be able to orderit for you and also anywhere
online.
SPEAKER_00 (52:22):
You betcha.
We'll have some links in ourshow notes, everybody.
So you can just click away andget that book that Melanie
wrote.
We do have a standard questionwe ask all our guests about, and
that's for a pet story.
And we have been talking aboutyour your dog Hammy.
Do you have any pet stories fromyour life you could share with
us?
SPEAKER_02 (52:41):
I'll just say that I started my life with Dachshunds
because my parents were inGermany.
My dad was stationed there inthe army, and they came home and
had a Dachshund, and then I wasborn, and so this Dachshund was
like my, I guess, my oldersister, and then that Dachshund
had puppies, and so then we hada couple Dachshunds, and they
(53:04):
were just they were around me asI grew up.
I remember being a toddler andhaving them there, and just they
just were always in my life.
So I think that's where I reallybegan to love hounds.
They did always have backproblems though, so that's why
when I sought out another hound,I started looking at beagles.
(53:26):
But Dachshunds certainly have asoft spot in my heart.
SPEAKER_00 (53:31):
Yeah, they're cute little things.
Thanks for sharing.
All right, Melanie, thanks forbeing a guest on the Science
Podcast.
Do you have your own websitethat folks can go to or be
directed to a little bit moreabout yourself?
SPEAKER_02 (53:48):
I do.
It's Melanie D.
G.
Kaplan.
And on Instagram, it's labunderscore dog underscore hammy.
And I'm also on all the othersocial medias.
SPEAKER_00 (54:04):
All right.
Well, make sure we got yourwebsite and then one of your
socials in the show notes sofolks can take a look further.
And I do have to, I do have tosay, you do have uh some
somebody fairly big in theanimal world did a little review
of your book.
Uh sadly, pass away recently,but that's Dr.
Jane Goodall.
(54:25):
That's very cool.
SPEAKER_02 (54:26):
Oh my gosh, I still to this day I'm pinching myself
and I'm so grateful.
It was just an amazing thingthat she did that.
And I remember hearing herinterviewed in some podcasts,
and several times she said thatdogs were her favorite animal.
And so I said, I've just got toreach out and see what it what
(54:48):
happens.
SPEAKER_00 (54:48):
Very, very lucky.
On our socials, we did a post tohonor her.
And yeah, I you, you know,there's you can use audios of
different interviews that are onInstagram.
We use that audio of her.
I believe she was talking to oneof the late-night talk show
hosts about how monkeys aren'ther favorite or apes aren't her
(55:09):
favorite animal because they'retoo much like people.
SPEAKER_02 (55:13):
I love that.
SPEAKER_00 (55:15):
Yeah, there's some there's there's some monkeys
that she really likes, andthere's some monkeys that are
absolute jerks, but it's thedogs that are the best animal
because of their unconditionallove for us.
SPEAKER_02 (55:27):
And because they're not jerks, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (55:29):
And if we are, and if they ever are jerks, it's our
own fault.
We've made them that way.
SPEAKER_02 (55:35):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (55:37):
Yeah.
All right.
Thank you for being a guest andtalking about your book lab dog.
Make sure you pick it up,people.
SPEAKER_02 (55:43):
Thanks so much for the conversation.
This was great.
SPEAKER_00 (55:47):
That's it for this week's show.
Thanks for coming back weekafter week to listen to the
Science Podcast.
And a shout out to all the topdogs.
That's the top tier of ourPatreon community, the Pop Pack.
You can sign up in our shownotes.
All right, Chris, let's hearthose names that are part of the
Top Dogs.
SPEAKER_01 (56:04):
Amelia Fettig, Ree Oda, Carol Hanel, Jennifer
Challen, Linnea Janet, KarenCronister, Vicki Oteiro, Christy
Walker, Sarah Brown, Wendy,Diane, Mason and Luke, Helen
Chin, Elizabeth Goujois,Marianne McNally, Katherine
Jordan, Shelly Smith, LauraSteffenson, Tracy Leinbaugh, Ann
(56:27):
Uchida, Heather Burbach, Kelly,Tracy Halbert, Ben Rather,
Debbie Anderson, Sandy Brimer,Mary Rader, Bianca Hyde, Andrew
Lynn, Brenda Clark, BrianneHobbs, Peggy McKeel, Holly
Birch, Kathy Zirker, SusanWagner, and Liz Button.
SPEAKER_00 (56:46):
For science, empathy, and cuteness.
Hello, science enthusiasts.
I'm Jason Zakowski.
SPEAKER_01 (00:12):
And I'm Chris Zakoski.
SPEAKER_00 (00:14):
We're the pet parents of Bunsen, Beaker,
Bernoulli, and Ginger.
SPEAKER_01 (00:18):
The science animals on social media.
If you love science and you lovepets, you've come to the right
spot.
So put on your safety glassesand hold on to your tail.
SPEAKER_00 (00:29):
This is the Science Podcast.
And welcome back to the SciencePodcast.
We hope you're happy and healthyout there.
This is episode 33 of seasonseven.
There's snow on the ground, andLil Kitty has been with us for
three, is it three weeks nowwe've had bricks?
SPEAKER_01 (00:46):
No.
No, we've had him for two weeks.
SPEAKER_00 (00:49):
Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_01 (00:50):
He's doubled in size, it feels like he has a
little pot belly because heloves food.
Does he?
Oh no.
I know.
I've I'm like, is this just apot belly, or is it because
you've just had some food andyour belly is full and you need
to go to the bathroom?
SPEAKER_00 (01:06):
Oh, he does love food.
He yells at me when you're notaround for food, but I have to
know.
I think we have to write downwhat we're feeding him.
Um it's not like he's not likehe's obese anything.
He's doing fine.
SPEAKER_01 (01:20):
He's growing.
Yeah, he's a healthy little boy.
He's so cute.
SPEAKER_00 (01:25):
It's very cool seeing his interaction with the
dogs, too, because Bernoulli isinfatuated with him, follows him
around everywhere, and Bunsenjust at him, and sometimes
Bunsen comes up to say hello,which is really cool.
Because he didn't really do thatwith ginger.
I think he was a little gingershy.
SPEAKER_01 (01:40):
To be fair, ginger is terrifying.
SPEAKER_00 (01:43):
She is, she is, she's got mean girl energy.
And Beaker has been accepting ofthe little guy.
Like he bricks has gotten reallyclose to her, and she hasn't
really cared, which is cool.
SPEAKER_01 (01:56):
I like that part, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:58):
Yeah.
So it was been a fun two weeks,very busy, but fun two weeks.
Let's get on with that.
Let's get on with what'shappening on the podcast this
week.
So, in science news, we're goingto talk about some unintended
consequences of the mRNA COVIDvaccines for the good.
If you've been following thenews on health and wellness,
(02:18):
you've probably already seenthis study because it came out
in October.
But I figured we would talkabout it today as we're heading,
at least in Alberta, into coldand flu season.
In pet science, a really coolstudy from, I believe it's
Australia, that looked at dogbreeders and what they do to
socialize the little puppiesbefore they're sent on their
way.
(02:39):
Um, because that is perhaps oneof the things that breeders who
you get a dog from do a reallygood job of, or where they could
do a better job of, or somethingto think about for the dogs that
maybe come from a shelter thatdon't have that same kind of
socialization as a puppy.
SPEAKER_01 (02:56):
Exactly.
That's a really important pointto consider when you're looking
at getting a new puppy.
SPEAKER_00 (03:03):
And our guests and ask an expert is called Lab Dog,
which her beagle was one of thedogs that she her dog is a
beagle that she rescued frombeing a lab dog that would be
tested on.
And she went down the rabbithole of researching the whole
that whole side of science usingdogs and other animals for
(03:26):
testing.
It's a really good discussion,the goods and the bads, and the
uglies and the hope for thefuture.
All right, let's get on with theshow.
There's no time like ScienceTime.
This week in Science News, as Imentioned, a cool study was a
cool study was published inOctober 22nd in Nature that
looked at an unintendedconsequence of those mRNA
(03:47):
COVID-19 vaccines.
Now, if you want to think backto the pandemic, Chris, we got
our COVID vaccines to do ourpart and um stop the spread.
Do you remember I do?
SPEAKER_01 (03:57):
I remember it was frustrating because we were not
eligible to receive them.
And we had to wait, I guess,until the second or third round
in order to be able to havethem.
SPEAKER_00 (04:08):
Yeah, I just remember it was like a different
COVID-19 vaccine every time.
And I made the joke, I made thejoke I was trying to collect all
of them like Thanos wascollecting his infinity stones.
I did not collect all of them,which is too bad.
unknown (04:24):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (04:25):
So what is the study looking at?
Then this new research suggestedthat mRNA COVID vaccines
enhances the effectiveness ofcertain cancer treatments,
especially immunotherapy.
Lung cancer patients whoreceived the COVID vaccine
within a few months ofimmunotherapy lived, this is
shocking, twice as long as thosewho did not.
SPEAKER_01 (04:47):
A similar pattern was also observed in melanoma
patients, but that hinted at abroader effect.
And so these results areconsidered compelling.
These vaccines traditionallyteach the immune system by
encoding proteins, very similar,exactly like the COVID uh spike
(05:08):
protein that the body learns torecognize.
And so cancer-targeted mRNAvaccines normally encode tumor
protein fragments, which trainsthe immune system to attack
cancer.
But the breakthrough findingfound that the cancer vaccine
did not contain tumor mRNA.
(05:29):
Their experimental mRNA cancervaccine actually did not contain
tumor mRNA.
But when it was combined withtheir immunotherapy drugs, the
mRNA itself actually triggered astrong antitumor immune
response.
So, what does that suggest?
This suggests that mRNAmolecules may act as a molecular
(05:52):
alarm signal, like a 911 callprompting the immune system to
fight the cancer.
So someone call 911, we need toprompt the immune system, which
is actually really cool.
SPEAKER_00 (06:20):
So they got the data from reviewing electronic health
records of a thousand patientswith non-small cell lung cancer
who had received a checkpointinhibitor immunotherapy.
So that's the drug that you'retalking about, Chris.
Uh 200 patients had received anmRNA COVID vaccine within 100
days of starting theimmunotherapy.
When they looked at three-yearsurvival comparison, 56% of
(06:42):
vaccinated patients were stillalive compared to 31% of
unvaccinated patients.
And a very similar pattern wasobserved in melanoma patients.
As you said, this hints atpotentially many different types
of cancers that were tackled inmuch the same way.
This is very cool.
SPEAKER_01 (06:59):
Yeah, Jason, this has such huge implications for
cancer treatment.
Now, one of the cautions is it'snot, it hasn't been through
clinical trials, but if it'sconfirmed in clinical trials,
the findings could actuallyrepresent a major shift in what
we do or how cancer is treatedor shift in cancer therapy.
(07:22):
Okay, as we know, mRNA COVIDvaccines are already widely
available and they have beenproven safe, and they could be
an additional tool to boost theeffects of immunotherapy.
So, what does that do?
That potentially opens a pathwayfor using mRNA platforms beyond
an infectious disease, and itcould have implications in
(07:46):
oncology.
SPEAKER_00 (07:48):
So we should, as you said, Chris, it has been through
clinical trials, and this studypublished by the researchers
emphasized that this iscorrelation, not causation.
They have to actually do thestudy and work through the
science to see if it does causea huge boost in the alarm system
to fight off cancer in yourbody.
SPEAKER_01 (08:08):
So before they're going to begin enrolling
patients by the end of the year,they're hoping to prepare a
trial.
So they're trying to block sowhat the hope is to begin
enrolling patients by the end ofthe year by preparing a trial.
And until that's available,let's just use strong caution
(08:31):
until those controlled resultsare available.
SPEAKER_00 (08:36):
This is interesting because there's a lot of
misinformation out there from avery small number of people
about how the COVID vaccineswere unsafe and millions upon
millions of people died, oreverybody who got the shot is
going to die soon.
And of course, that hasn'thappened.
The pandemic was a long timeago.
Um, so there is a relativelysmall group of people with a
(08:57):
large megaphone spreading a lotof misinformation and skepticism
about those mRNA vaccines.
And this is an unbelievably goodside effect of those of us who
have taken it.
It may help you fight cancer.
And as you said, Chris, we justgot to wait and see and wait for
the science to come through tosee if that's actually if it's
cause and effect.
It's very cool.
SPEAKER_01 (09:18):
It is very cool.
It's a very good outlook, apositive outlook in terms of
cancer research and cancertreatment.
SPEAKER_00 (09:25):
All right, that's science news for this week in
Pet Science.
Let's talk about why puppybreeders matter for puppy
development.
Now, Bricks is a rescue, but ina way, Bricks did come from a
situation where he had a lot ofsocialization.
We don't know a lot about beakerbecause we got beaker during
(09:45):
COVID.
So that was a whole very weirdsituation, meaning that like we
didn't really see much ofanything of the people.
We just showed up and gotbeaker.
I think she scampered out of thedoor because we had to maintain
social distancing.
SPEAKER_01 (10:01):
Yeah, they basically pushed her out the door.
Yeah, that was such a weirdthing and then Adam caught her.
SPEAKER_00 (10:06):
And then I cried.
I had a huge cry when I pickedher up that little dog.
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01 (10:11):
Oh my goodness, she was such a music.
SPEAKER_00 (10:14):
Yeah, but Bunsen came from a Swiss family, and
they didn't have a big outfit,they just had a male and female
dog, and I think they had one ortwo litters a year, if that.
And Bernoulli, Bernoulli camefrom an oopsie way up north.
I don't I think they wereeventually planning to breed the
male and female they have, butit was just happened
(10:34):
unexpectedly.
SPEAKER_01 (10:36):
Yeah, but it was good for us because we love
Bernoulli.
SPEAKER_00 (10:39):
Oh, yeah, what a stroke of luck getting that dog.
So here's the here's thebackground for the study.
Um, historically, dogs, ofcourse, are bred for functional
traits, and they have a bunch ofphysical traits that we've
picked out as humans for thedogs that we want.
There's over 350 recognized dogbreeds, and dogs increasingly
(11:00):
serve as companions now insteadof perhaps what they were bred
for.
Like back in the day, of course,some dogs were bred as
companions, but they weredefinitely bred for more
physical tasks.
They really help with huntingand herding and guarding.
So most owners now want dogsthat are friendly and
(11:22):
affectionate.
They listen and you can trainthem.
And of course, they're safe withkids.
Now, because many pet dogs aredissexed and don't breed, most
new pet dogs acquired aredirectly from breeders or pet
shops or rescues or shelters.
So this is made a pretty bigbreeding industry for large
(11:47):
commercial breeders and smallbreeders.
Now, I would say where we gotBunsen, Beaker, and Berilli from
were very small because theyjust had a male and female dog.
That's it.
SPEAKER_01 (11:59):
Yeah, that's true.
So they just had one to twolitters per year.
It wasn't maybe less, or itwasn't just a that large
commercial organizationproducing hundreds of litters
annually.
And I loved that for us becausethen we were able to talk about
the parents and other thingslike that and be more on a an
intimate basis with theknowledge that we got.
SPEAKER_00 (12:21):
Yeah, I remember Bunsen's dad.
What his name was Benny?
Is he still he might still bealive?
But Benny, I think.
SPEAKER_01 (12:28):
Yeah, Benny.
SPEAKER_00 (12:29):
Benny and Masha.
Masha was the mom, and Masha wasso sweet.
Do you remember how sweet shewas?
So sweet.
So I think Bunsen got thatsweetness, but Benny was also on
point.
Like watching over everybodymaking sure nobody messed with
the little puppies.
So Bunsen got that as well.
SPEAKER_01 (12:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:51):
But, anyways, so for puppies of three to twelve weeks
of age, that's a criticalsocialization period where their
experiences have a verylong-lasting effect on their
behavior.
And in a lot of countries,breeders are legally required to
keep them up until eight weeksof age.
So this means that the breedercontrols most of the
(13:14):
socialization period.
And not a lot of goodinformation has been done about
what happens during that time.
So that's where the study comesin.
That's a long preamble becausethe study was looking to see in
Australian dog breeders, a verysmall, like a relatively small
sample, but in detail, how thepuppies developed and if there
(13:35):
were any socializationpractices, and then how the
breeders made decisions aboutrearing and socialization for
those litters and thepersonalities of individual
puppies.
So I thought that was cool.
SPEAKER_01 (13:48):
So they, you're right.
The sample size is 14 dogbreeders in Australia, and they
were from multiple areas inAustralia.
So like Victoria and New SouthWales, Queensland, Tasmania, and
Western Australia.
And of those breeders wereapproved commercial breeders.
And the recruitment for thestudy, they did uh puppy
(14:09):
advertisement on websites.
And then what they did isinterviews in semi-structured
format.
And those interviews wereconducted either by the phone or
in person in 2019.
And what happened was this isthe part I like because this is
the research that I did in mymaster's where there was audio
(14:32):
recorded and then transcribedverbatim, and then using like an
inductive content analysis part.
So that's the part that I liketalking about is like coding and
getting the data into categoriesand subcategories.
So I can get really excitedabout that, but I think it's
best if we basically get to thefindings of what they found.
SPEAKER_00 (14:56):
So one of the first big findings was that they found
all breeders did somesocialization.
And there was nine differenttypes.
I don't know if we have time togo through all of them, but they
seem to remind me of what uhChar at Waggles does in those
puppy training classes.
Like she does, she seems to naila lot of these, like exposure to
novel objects.
(15:16):
So new toys, and that's like toincrease exploration, make sure
that dogs or the puppies feelsafe when something new comes
along.
SPEAKER_01 (15:25):
And it also prevents the environment from becoming
boring.
And so, like when we're doingour puppy training, it's hey,
make it fun.
Who wants to be like sit in yourseat and do work?
Not the dogs.
They want to have a fun time ontheir mat and roll around and
run around with their friends,etc., etc.
An example of that is like puppyactivity gyms with PVC and
(15:47):
hanging toys and objects androtating the objects in the
environment, which is what I'vebeen doing with bricks.
I don't know, he's a cat, butI'm like, I think he's a little
tired of this toy, so I'm gonnaswitch it out.
SPEAKER_00 (15:57):
Yeah, keeping it fresh and new.
Uh, they found that breedersexpose the puppies to different
surfaces, and we did thatactually with uh puppy training
with Shar.
Um, like I think she had icepacks on the ground, so it felt
cold because we were doing thisin the summer, obviously, but
different textures too, likerocks, carpet, floorboards, and
whatever.
Uh, they exposed the puppies todifferent sounds.
(16:19):
A lot of the breeders hadsoundtracks that played
thunderstorms, crowds, childrenlaughing, and zooming airplane
sounds.
That's cool.
They started when the puppieswere really little at low
volume, and then they graduallyincreased the noise.
Isn't that interesting?
That's cool.
SPEAKER_01 (16:37):
Yeah, I think that's really cool.
It reduces their sensitivity tonoise for later in life.
SPEAKER_00 (16:43):
Yeah.
They handled them quite a bitand physically manipulated their
body.
So you don't want a puppy tonever have somebody touch their
feet or their ears.
So they did that with thepuppies.
They bathed and blow dried them,they nail clipped them and filed
them.
They used toys that vibrated ormade noise.
So that simulated like thosegrinders, the Dremel that you
(17:05):
might use on their nails.
And of course, this preparespuppies for veterinarian exams,
getting groomed and generalhuman contact.
There was a video, I don't knowif you saw it, Chris.
I reposted it to our story ofthese little Bernice Mountain
Dog puppies getting a bath andthen getting blow dried.
So when you give a when BerniceMountain Dog gets wet, they're
(17:26):
all their fur clings to theirbody and they're not floofy
anymore.
And these little puppies looklike little kind of drowned
rats, but they were big becausethey're Bernice Mountain Dogs.
And then they got blow dried andthey turned into these sharks
that were fluffy and so happy.
So it was very cute.
And the puppies seemed to be,yeah.
So obviously, they were doingthe this lots with the puppies
(17:48):
because they could they didn'tcare they were getting a bath
and they didn't care they weregetting blow dried.
That's good to have that kind ofdesensitization.
SPEAKER_01 (17:54):
I just remember picking up Bunsen and he was
like so fluffy because they hadgiven him a bath and blow dried
him, and he smelled so good.
So fluffy.
Oh my god, so cute.
I know.
SPEAKER_00 (18:04):
Yeah, love him.
Bernoulli was too, and we gothim.
He was so soft.
Oh my god.
Anyway, soft.
SPEAKER_01 (18:10):
Another thing they do is socialize with humans.
So the breeders actively exposepuppies to people beyond their
main family, including children,as well as staff, like school
volunteers or after schoolcareers.
They all, if the visitor came,people are keen to see the
puppies.
So that would be a goodopportunity to socialize with
(18:32):
humans.
Now, the visiting happened fromabout three to four weeks
onwards, generally done in thehome environment.
They were sometimes supplementedby trips outside the home.
And what that does is buildpositive associations with
people of different ages andappearances, so the puppy is
more confident in the world.
SPEAKER_00 (18:52):
And then some of the other categories are ones you'd
probably think of socializationwith other dogs and other
animals.
Maybe that's why Bernoulli lovescats so much, because they had
cats.
Didn't they?
Oh, they did.
SPEAKER_01 (19:04):
Yeah, they did.
They did.
SPEAKER_00 (19:04):
They had cats that were zooming around everywhere.
That's maybe that's whyBernoulli has glommed on the cat
so much.
But not just cats, but like farmanimals if they're on a farm,
like sheep and horses and cows.
Um, and then also socializingthem on and off-site.
So taking them to dog-friendlyplaces, obviously keeping making
sure the puppy is safe fromgetting infections, but car
(19:27):
travel too.
So these all are things that thebreeders do, and they found that
they do them, which is cool.
Now, this brings us to thesecond main finding, which was
how they approached to basicallyrearing the puppies.
And there were three rearingstrategies.
One was they reared the puppiesas a unit.
(19:47):
Everybody was treated the same,and they were all exposed to the
same things at the same time.
It was very efficient andmanageable, especially if you
have a Bernice Mountain Doglitter that's got 13 little
Bunsons or Bernoullies becausethat is chaos.
And what were the other tworearing methods, Chris?
SPEAKER_01 (20:04):
So they did a litter level flexibility cohort rearing
where the breeders adjustedplans based on the development
and behavior of each litter as awhole.
So a change might be oh, youknow what, you're ready to move
outdoors a little earlier or alittle later than you normally
would, or modifying the timingof specific exposures depending
(20:26):
on how confident or mature thelitter seems.
This recognizes that differentlitters or different breeds
actually may develop atdifferent speeds.
And yeah, and then you know, itdoes it takes more work.
But lastly, they did individualpuppy rearing, which is that
puppy level flexibility.
So deliberately observing theindividual differences within a
(20:48):
litter and knowing if one ofthem needed extra support and
handling for shy for being shyor reserved.
Maybe they provided a morechallenging and enriched
environment for bold, curiouspuppies.
And that the goal of that is tohelp each puppy reach its best
(21:08):
outcome, not just the average ofthe litter.
So, you know, they're notmutually exclusive, these
frameworks or these approaches.
The breeder may use a standardframework, they may adjust it
for each litter, and they canstill give special attention to
particular puppies as needed.
SPEAKER_00 (21:26):
We don't know much about Beaker, the families that
raised Bunsen and Bernoullibefore we got them, they had
special little stories aboutBunsen and Bernoulli, though
they weren't called Bunsen andBernoulli.
They knew about theirpersonalities, they knew about
them as little puppies.
SPEAKER_01 (21:42):
It was so cute how they knew them and being able to
articulate.
Yeah, he so Bernoulli wasn'tlike the number one out there
getting into mischief, but hedefinitely went along with it.
If mischief was happening, hewas right in there like a dirty
shirt.
SPEAKER_00 (21:58):
A lady, I forget her name, the lady that the mom of
Bunsen, she said he is kind andhe is affectionate.
That's I remember her telling methat.
He is a kind and affectionatepuppy.
Yes.
He's just a good boy.
Yeah.
All right.
What are some big takeaways fromthis?
(22:20):
Early experiences are crucialfor shaping adult dog behavior
and welfare.
The breeders in the study allreported levels of
socialization, some more thanothers, but they all were doing
it and they used a variety ofstrategies and experiences.
Some tailored it, as you said,Chris, to the litter and
individual needs, or some werejust like an all-encompassing
everybody does the same thingkind of thing.
(22:43):
They're doing what they shouldbecause they do play a central
role in preparing puppies forlife as companions.
SPEAKER_01 (22:49):
It's so cute.
I'm really grateful for the workthat they that they do to
prepare puppies for success inhomes in their forever homes.
SPEAKER_00 (22:59):
I don't know how you would do 10 Bernoullies.
Like he was wild as a puppy andso fun.
But like we were exhausted froma single puppy.
I can't imagine 10.
SPEAKER_01 (23:09):
Cannot imagine 10.
But you know what?
People have twins and peoplehave triplets and they do it.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (23:16):
Yeah, they're not mauling the cat though.
No, that's true.
All right, that's pet sciencefor this week.
It's time for Ask an Expert onthe Science Podcast, and I'm
thrilled to have journalist andauthor Melanie Kaplan with us
today.
Melanie, how are you doing?
SPEAKER_02 (23:34):
I am great, Jason.
How are you?
SPEAKER_00 (23:36):
I'm good.
I always ask our guests if theyare comfortable answering.
Where are you in the world?
Where are you calling into theshow from?
SPEAKER_02 (23:43):
Oh, yes, I am in Washington, DC, and I'm about
nine blocks east of the U.S.
Capitol.
So it's a very exciting place insome ways.
It's also just Capitol Hill is avery green neighborhood.
Sometimes I travel to otherparts of the country, and people
are like, oh, what is it likeliving in the capital of the
(24:04):
United States?
And I'm like, we have our littledog parks and our Trader Joe's,
and it's just like any otherneighborhood.
But today it's a kind of a grayday here.
SPEAKER_00 (24:13):
I would imagine it's much the same living in Ottawa,
Canada, our capital, too.
SPEAKER_02 (24:18):
Yeah, it's it's nice because if I go out for a run, I
can run around the Capitol andthe Washington Monument and run
by the Potomac River, and youcan also be in Maryland and
Virginia in a very short time.
So it just feels like a goodplace for to live.
And I love getting out on thewater on my paddleboard, and
(24:40):
it's a good place to bike.
And of course, I also lovegetting out of town and
traveling.
SPEAKER_00 (24:46):
You get to jog by all those landmarks that we see
in the movies that generallyeither get attacked by aliens or
a nice backdrop.
SPEAKER_02 (24:55):
That's right.
Well, I'll keep an eye on themto make sure they don't get
attacked.
SPEAKER_00 (24:59):
Yeah, so Hollywood says it's the first place they
go.
But, anyways, I mentioned you'rea journalist before we get into
the cool the big lead in thatyou've written a book about
dogs, lab dogs.
Could you tell us a little bitabout your journalism and the
writing you've done?
SPEAKER_02 (25:15):
Sure.
Yeah.
I've I feel like I've been awriter all of my life.
My mom encouraged me to writefrom the time I was very little.
And then I ended up being editorof my high school newspaper.
And yeah, it was called TheEagle.
And then I when I went tocollege, I studied more
(25:37):
television and radio, butbecause I just couldn't get, I
couldn't stay away from theprinted word, and ended up
starting freelancing prettyearly in my twenties and have
been doing that ever since.
And at the beginning, I wouldpretty much write for anybody
who would pay me.
And even sometimes for peoplewho didn't pay me, there'd be
(25:57):
some free publications you pickup at a restaurant, and I would
do little restaurant reviews andwrite for trade magazines and
write about real estate indifferent cities and literally
everything under the sun.
And the nice thing aboutsticking with it for a long time
is that I've been able to reallypick and choose a little bit
(26:18):
more about what I want to coverand write things that are really
of interest to me, or justassignments that are super fun.
So I got into some travelwriting and ended up writing
quite a bit of travel storiesfor the Washington Post.
SPEAKER_00 (26:35):
So when you become a like a travel writer slash
journalist, do you get to go tothose places or do you live
vicariously through Google orsomething like that?
SPEAKER_02 (26:46):
Generally, I would go to those places.
Of course, the pandemic was anexception because I ended up
writing about things.
I remember once the pandemicstarted, the editors wanted
ideas of things we could pitchwithout going anywhere.
So I was pitching stories likethe best travel books to read or
travel shows to watch.
(27:08):
That was interesting.
But generally I would go to theplaces and because of the way
newspapers, because of theirbudgets and the trajectory of
them the last decade or so, Istarted off getting expenses
paid, and then I had no expensespaid.
So people would say, Oh, getthem to send you here and here.
(27:30):
And I'm like, I pay for myselfto get there.
And then I sell them a travelstory, and it really didn't make
me a lot of money.
So I ended up writing some otherthings that paid better, but
maybe weren't quite as much fun.
So it's always a balance.
SPEAKER_00 (27:45):
Just a quick follow-up question.
We have we have a lot of peoplethat listen to our show that
love traveling.
Where have you been that you'veyou thought was cool if you've
if you could tell somebody to goto that place?
SPEAKER_02 (27:58):
I always recommend national parks and actually
write for National Parksmagazine too.
So I've been bird watching inBig Bend National Park and
sledding down sand dunes inGreat Sand Dunes National Park,
which I didn't even know thatexisted.
You literally get on a sled, orif you're really brave, you get
(28:21):
on it's like a snowboard and yougo down standing up, which I did
not trust myself doing that.
And oh my gosh, it's just somuch fun.
Each park really is unique andhas so much to offer.
And I just I hope that we cankeep our parks and keep them
safe and clean and keep all thenatural things protected because
(28:43):
it's such an amazing thing aboutthis country.
And I actually drove acrossCanada this summer and visited
some of the national parks inCanada that that have been on my
bucket list.
So I got to camp in Banff, andit was just as magical as I had
dreamed.
SPEAKER_00 (29:00):
Yeah, we are we have a very large social media
account with our dogs, and wetake them to the mountains,
which is just a hop, skip, and ajump from our house, right?
Because we live, you know, acouple hours from Banff.
And it never gets old driving upto the mountains.
And we have hikes that we lovethat are in the mountains there
that are just like little secrethikes, and there's a little
(29:22):
secret mountain lake in in justabove Canmore that we go to all
the time.
So yeah, it's a really prettyplace.
SPEAKER_02 (29:27):
Oh my gosh.
Does it so is it that color ofLake Louise?
SPEAKER_00 (29:31):
Yeah, it's aquamarine, and nobody nobody
goes there.
It's just a little bit of drive.
I'll tell you, people haveasked, it's called Goat Lake,
and generally you're the onlyperson on the entire lake.
SPEAKER_02 (29:45):
Oh, that is amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (29:47):
I go swimming in it if because I don't mind the cold
and paddleboarding and kayaking.
It's pretty fun.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (29:52):
Yeah.
I went paddleboarding on LakeLouise and got there to the
parking lot at 5 30 in themorning because I know.
That parking lot fills upquickly and just thought I gotta
do this.
I'm here once, and I was therewith my partner.
We put our paddle boards on thelake, and we were the only ones
out there, and it was just itwas unbelievable.
I will never forget being outthere and seeing the mountains
(30:14):
and the color of the water, andit truly was like a dream.
SPEAKER_00 (30:19):
I'm glad you got to experience a little bit of
Canada there.
Very cool.
SPEAKER_02 (30:23):
Yeah.
I will say I'm gonna talk alittle bit more about travel.
You can tell I don't enjoy thisat all.
I also love driving crosscountry, whether it's yours or
mine.
And I did take a train acrossthe U.S.
once, and that was definitely ahighlight of all of my travel
stories.
This particular one went fromWashington to Chicago and then
(30:45):
went through the Rockies to SanFrancisco.
You can also take one that goesup through Glacier National Park
in Montana and ends up inSeattle, and then there's
another one that goes south andends up, I think, in LA.
Going through the Rockies, youare on this on the tracks that
the cars are nowhere near.
Nobody ever sees this unlessyou're on a train.
(31:07):
And it was just as in January,so everything was covered in
snow.
And I remember bringing allthese books to read on the
train.
I never cracked one of them openbecause I was just looking out
the window the whole time.
SPEAKER_00 (31:18):
Is watching hay?
Yeah.
Very pretty.
Very cool.
That's and it's good to know alittle bit more about you.
I appreciate you sharing a bitabout that, Melanie.
So let's get to the lead, thereason why you're on the science
podcast, and that's about yourbook, Lab Dog.
And I was wondering, are authorsdon't generally want to tell
(31:41):
everything about the bookbecause you'd like people to
read it.
But in simple terms, what's itabout?
SPEAKER_02 (31:47):
So, Lab Dog, and I'll just say the subtitle
because that tells a little bit,it's called A Beagle and His
Human Investigate the SurprisingWorld of Animal Research.
And the part about a Beagle andHis Human is really the key
because the Beagle is Hammy.
And I adopted Hammy when he wasalmost four, and he'd spent the
(32:09):
previous years in some kind ofresearch lab.
And I didn't know anything abouthis background.
I adopted him in 2013, and itwas many years later when I just
realized I have a lot ofquestions about this.
Like, why are we breeding dogsfor research?
And what was his backgroundlike?
(32:32):
And is this changing?
Are we kind of phasing out dogsand other animals and using more
modern technologies?
And so being a journalist andjust being super curious, I
decided to set off on anadventure.
And I think I actually used thewhole road trip as a platform
for this.
And Hammy and I hopped in thecar, and over several years we
(32:55):
met a number of researchers andethicists and animal activists.
And I really tried to get abetter picture of what this
looks like.
What is dog research like today?
What have we learned from dogs?
And what's it look like in thefuture?
SPEAKER_00 (33:13):
And beagles, of course, are like one of the
go-to dogs in the animalresearch that that whole world,
which is tough to hear for sure.
SPEAKER_02 (33:24):
They are.
And beagles became the go-tobreed because they're small and
they don't eat as much as aGreat Dane.
So you can keep them in a kennelfor cheaper.
Um goes back to close to ahundred years ago, we had
brought beagles over to thiscountry for hunting.
(33:46):
And so there are all thesekennels, and they were trying to
breed a better beagle for to bea hunting dog.
And then when pharmaceuticalcompanies wanted to start
testing drugs, I think it was apretty easy pivot for them to
start breeding a better beaglefor medical testing and
research.
(34:07):
So they are the vast majority ofdogs used.
There are other dogs.
There are there have been Irishsetters and dachshunds and
golden retrievers, uh,greyhounds.
They've all been used forresearch, but it's mostly
beagles.
And of course, there's manyother animals.
The majority of animals used inresearch are mice and rats.
SPEAKER_00 (34:30):
Yeah.
Not to jump around too much, butso Hammy spent, I think you said
four years in a research lab.
Is that correct?
Did I get the time right?
SPEAKER_02 (34:40):
Almost four years, that's right.
SPEAKER_00 (34:41):
Almost four years, yeah.
Did you notice any ill effectsof that?
What is he okay?
Was he okay when you adoptedhim?
SPEAKER_02 (34:50):
So he seemed okay physically.
He had a little bit of a limp.
So maybe his leg got stuck in adoor of a kennel at some point,
or something else happened.
So he had a bit of a limp hiswhole life on his back leg when
whenever he started to run.
But mostly he was scared.
He, I assume, had never been outin the real world.
(35:12):
He was living in confinement.
And so the sounds of the cityand just really seeing things
out in the world or even in thehouse would really terrify him,
and he'd end up just trembling alot.
And it was months and monthsbefore we even got past that
first initial fear and trauma.
And, you know, I think thatstuck with him his whole life.
(35:35):
He got way more confident andcomfortable in the house, and he
started howling, and he got morecomfortable going to new places.
But there were still some soundsthat set him off and unusual
things that would trigger him.
And so I just did my best tomake sure he felt comfortable
and safe and spoiled.
(35:58):
I just figured whatever thefirst years of his life were
like, I wanted to make the restof his life just awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (36:05):
Yeah.
Man, like we have the people wholisten to our show, they love
their pets, right?
Family members, really.
And I can't even begin toimagine like our dogs being in a
research facility, and just it'swonderful that you got Hammy out
of that.
When you worked sorry, yeah.
(36:26):
I'm just trying to, I'm justtrying to process this because
it's awful, but I'm so glad thathe's with you.
I guess before we got into evenmore my questions about the
book, I'm just more curiousabout Hammy.
How did you adopt him?
How did you rescue him out ofthat situation?
SPEAKER_02 (36:40):
So I adopted him through an organization that
works specifically with labs toget dogs out and then get them
into homes.
It's a very small percentage ofdogs that can get out because
for most of them, you canimagine if they're testing drugs
or a pesticide, they're givingthem very high doses, way more
(37:00):
than we would take.
And then they have to euthanizethem and locate their tissues
and organs.
So there are some that don't gothrough that and that can be
adopted out.
And so I was lucky enough to,you know, I volunteered to
foster one of these dogs.
And then, of course, once hecame into my life and I got to
know him a little bit, Irealized that this was gonna be
(37:23):
a very short foster situation.
But to your point, it was justincredibly hard thinking about
him in a lab.
And I had to do that just aspart of the writing process and
thinking about what hisbackground might have been like,
and I had so many questions.
But when I had to actually thinkabout this one individual being
(37:46):
that who I loved so much in thatsituation, it was just it was
really difficult and painfulevery time.
SPEAKER_00 (37:54):
I've always said I I don't know if you've seen the
John Wick movies, but I totallyunderstand that if something
happened to one of my dogs, manyRussian goons would have a bad
day.
SPEAKER_02 (38:05):
Yes.
Exactly.
They're absolutely family, andthey in some ways they know us
better than anybody.
They spend so much time with usmore than any of my friends.
Like Hammy was by my side allthe time.
SPEAKER_00 (38:24):
Now, we have probably people listening who
are just like furious and angry.
Um, when you when you talk tothe researchers, they're I don't
want to say that it's a hundredpercent justified, but there's a
reason for this.
What did you learn anythingsurprising behind it?
That's my question, becausethat's honestly something I
don't know anything about.
SPEAKER_02 (38:47):
I set out to I really wanted to find the people
who researched on Hammy.
And my dream was to talk to themand introduce them to Hammy, and
then they would fall in lovewith him and apologize.
And I don't think I'm givingaway too much by saying that did
not happen.
I went on a journey and gotdifferent answers than the ones
(39:10):
I was expecting.
But what I did learn from themis that they feel good about
their work, they don't haveregrets, they didn't apologize
for it, and they feel like theyare making the world a better
place.
There are a lot of people outthere, adults and children, that
have rare diseases and they arejust desperate for a cure.
(39:34):
And the way we've been doingresearch for centuries is by
using animals as models.
And that's we've learned a lotfrom them, right?
I've taken drugs, I've hadsurgeries, like that many of
those things might not havehappened in the way they
happened without this animalresearch.
But we also have all thesemodern things now.
(39:55):
We've got computer modeling andAI and little organs on chips,
which are these tiny littlesilicone things that you can put
organ cells into, human cells,and then you put the drugs in
and you see how the cells react.
And these things are justexploding in popularity, and
we're continuing to develop newthings.
(40:16):
And so I think what's reallyimportant to look at is are we
doing the best we can now?
And are we really justified inharming these animals that tens
of millions every year that arestill being harmed?
SPEAKER_00 (40:31):
Yeah, it's a it's is a very tough subject.
I'm my day job, I teach highschool chemistry and science.
And in our curriculum, I have totalk about LD50, which is lethal
dose 50.
Right, that's part of thecurriculum, and of course,
that's with these grade ninekids.
And that it's all about animaltesting.
Like usually I don't bring upthat it's beagles, but it's mice
(40:54):
or rats, and that is a verytough kind of thing to tell kids
that in the past and maybe eventoday we have a better quality
of life at the expense of theseanimals.
And that was the decisionsociety made.
And it's a tough, it is a toughthing to talk about with kids
because um they would gladly,and many people would gladly
(41:18):
have a worse, they would saythey would have a worse quality
of life if the animal wouldn'tsuffer.
But perhaps when it comes downto push to shove, you would make
a different decision.
But that is uh I you do talkabout in the book the big
developments of the promisingareas in non-human, non-animal
(41:39):
testing.
So that's cool.
We should go that route if wecan, obviously.
SPEAKER_02 (41:44):
Yeah, yes, for sure.
And I think there's been such along history of the animal
activists on one side and thebiomedical researchers on the
other side.
And I'm seeing little glimpsesof the sides coming together and
they all want to move forwardwith this.
And the researchers say, oh, ifwe didn't have to test on
animals, we wouldn't.
(42:05):
Um, but what is that line?
And for the animals, maybe wechange some things in the labs.
We say that there's going to bean upper limit to the pain they
can experience.
Right now, that limit doesn'texist.
If a researcher can justify it,they can do it.
There's certainly many thingsthat can change in the labs.
And that's interesting youmentioned the LD50 because I
(42:30):
researched that a little bit andfound out that it's used, it's
still used maybe among otherways, but with Botox, because I
guess each batch has to betested.
And I was really surprised tofind out about that.
I know there's an organizationin the UK that is fighting to
have all LD50 tests stopped by,I think it's the 100-year
(42:53):
anniversary, which is I want tosay coming up in the next few
years.
SPEAKER_00 (43:00):
And for people that are listening that maybe don't
know what LD50 is, that's thedose you give a population to
kill basically half of them.
So that's what LD50 stands for,in in the simplest terms.
Which is a spooky, awful termfor sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
As you were writing your book,did you hit parts of it that
(43:21):
were either tough to research ortough to you you did the
research and then it was time towrite about it?
Were there parts that were hardthere?
Because you do love your dogHammy so much.
I'd imagine some parts of itwere just like oof, like just a
gut punch.
SPEAKER_02 (43:36):
Yes, many times it was difficult.
And I just felt so stronglyabout telling this story.
And I would look at Hammy, and Ijust knew that I had to keep
going.
But certainly I had to takebreaks from the reading.
I had so many books andscientific papers, and there was
(43:58):
just so much material.
My brain felt like it was goingto explode, and some of it was
difficult to read.
I think part of the challenge inany storytelling is learning
what to put in and what to leaveout.
I obviously didn't need everydetail in the book, and I need
to needed to bring Hammy intothe story and weave him through
(44:18):
enough to keep the narrativeflowing and remind people why
this has become so important tome is because of the one I fell
in love with.
And he was always a goodreminder, and he was always a
good therapy dog when I neededit.
SPEAKER_00 (44:37):
So your book has recently come out, and I know
sometimes real life catches upto uh what perhaps you had
started to research, and therewere in the future laws or
changes to state laws or nanational laws about animal
testing.
I know it reached Canadian newsthat there was some musing uh by
(44:58):
the American administration tolook at banning testing on dogs.
And I'm wondering if that poppedup on your book research.
SPEAKER_02 (45:05):
Yeah, my manuscript was finished last December,
which in some ways was just avery tidy wrapping up of that
story.
And then so much began to changereally after January because the
new administration has talked ina number of ways about reducing
animal testing and devoting moreresources to these non-animal
(45:29):
methods.
Both the Food and DrugAdministration and the NIH have
said that animal testing is noteffective.
There's a crazy statistic thatmore than 90% of drugs that are
successful in animal tests endup failing in human clinical
(45:49):
trials because either they'retoxic or they just don't work.
So that's a huge amount of timeand money that these drug
companies are spending to not beable to get a drug to market.
So, of course, they would liketo have something more
effective.
And that's not even talkingabout the ethics part of it.
So, anyway, it's reallyencouraging that the
(46:11):
administration is talking aboutthis because previous
administrations have not said itthat bluntly that we need to
move away from animal researchand develop these modern
methods.
And so that's exciting.
I'll also add there's a wholeclass of drugs that the FDA is
now saying they don't requireanimal tests for, which is a
(46:33):
huge step.
And I think we're all justwaiting to see what else is
going to happen.
There's been really no change inpolicy, no change in the laws.
The Animal Welfare Act, whichwas passed in 1966, still only
covers some animals.
Like it doesn't cover any miceor rats or fish or birds.
(46:57):
And so that's very limiting interms of the reg regulation.
So there's a lot more we can doto protect animals and to make
sure that we're just being mostefficient with all of this
research and testing.
SPEAKER_00 (47:10):
Yeah, sounds like that could use an update.
I'm I'm probably I'm prettycertain Canada is very similar
to whatever's whatever's on thebooks in the States.
I you piqued my interest tocheck into my own country about
what's what our laws and rulesare.
So I have no idea.
SPEAKER_02 (47:26):
You guys, you guys have had some news on dogs and
research this year.
SPEAKER_00 (47:31):
Oh, more than me.
Oh, okay.
I must have missed that.
SPEAKER_02 (47:36):
I don't know enough to talk about, but there was
something I can't remember.
It wasn't yeah, it was like St.
Joseph's Hospital, maybe inOntario, but there was several
months ago, there were a lot ofnews stories about some dogs and
research there.
So that's all I can tell you.
SPEAKER_00 (47:52):
Oh yeah, 20 September and September of this
year.
SPEAKER_02 (47:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (47:56):
Strategy to reduce animal testing affect the number
of test chemicals, drugs, orminimal.
So yeah, I'll have to look intothat.
SPEAKER_02 (48:04):
I do have a chapter, it's what I call the good
research.
And this is research with dogswho are pets.
And just like human clinicaltrials, there are such things as
clinical trials with dogs.
So if your dog has a type ofcancer, you can actually go in
the United States at least andsee if there are ongoing trials
(48:26):
and sign your dog up.
And in many cases, all of the,if you're accepted in the trial,
all of the costs of thetreatment are covered, and they
might be using an experimentaldrug or repurposing a human
drug.
But the idea is that they learnsomething from this.
Either it helps your dog or ithelps future generations of
(48:47):
dogs.
Maybe it also helps humans, butit's a very dog-focused thing.
And the dogs, of course, aregoing back and living in their
homes and not confined in alaboratory.
So that's interesting, I think.
And the other thing I'll say isthat I spoke to a number of
scientists at PETA, and I don'tknow how active they are in
(49:09):
Canada, but I think theirreputation has generally been
just really radical, and that'sbeen their way since they were
founded.
And that still is the way in alot of cases.
But what I discovered is thatthey have such a robust science
division.
They've got something calledscience advancement and
(49:30):
outreach, and they've got PhDsand so many scientists working
on the alternatives.
And they literally go to thesecompanies that are testing on
animals, and they they try totalk them into using some of the
non-animal alternatives.
Sometimes they donate expensivemachines.
(49:51):
As a science teacher, you mightstill have dissection in your
school that they donate thesevery lifelike-looking frogs to
schools across the country thatare made by Cyndaver.
And they're just incrediblyactive in a way that I had no
idea.
So that was that was really aneye-opener and hope that more
(50:12):
people get to learn about theirthe just the robustness of their
science breadth and depth.
SPEAKER_00 (50:19):
That is interesting.
That's not something I knewabout.
Okay, cool.
Yeah.
Yeah, and to your point, thedissections we've done in my
career, they've changed quite abit, for sure.
SPEAKER_02 (50:30):
Oh, that's good.
So are you using simulated oranimal models there?
SPEAKER_00 (50:36):
No, but what we've, for example, when we do animal
dissections, there is it's youit might be grizzly, but there
is a massive pig processingplant in the same city.
So the parts that would not beused for human consumption, they
are set aside for thedissections that the schools
(50:58):
would use.
So that's not the animals aregoing to be dead anyways, due to
for the meat industry.
So instead of, I guess, seekingthem out, that's one way the
school has changed a bit.
SPEAKER_02 (51:09):
Yeah, yeah.
No, that's a step in the rightdirection.
SPEAKER_00 (51:12):
Yeah, and I have seen the like they do, we don't
do frog dissections anymore.
They're all done, they're donevirtually too.
So that's one one way.
And I know there's like thelifelike ones, which are also
very cool.
I've seen those at teachers'conventions.
SPEAKER_02 (51:24):
So yeah, that's where I first saw one.
It was it really blew me away.
It was so like jiggly, and youcut it open, and there's a whole
set of organs, and you can reuseparts of it when you do another
dissection.
And because of course they'renot cheap, none of this stuff is
at the beginning, but hopefullymore and more people in
classrooms will use it.
(51:44):
And um, that just seems like anobvious step toward being kinder
to animals.
SPEAKER_00 (51:51):
I agree.
Yeah.
So the thanks, thanks fortalking to us a little bit about
your book.
And the I apologize, I did notget the full name of the book.
That's Lab Dog, a Beagle and HisHuman Investigate the Surprising
World of Animal Research.
And folks can pick that upbasically anywhere that sells
books.
SPEAKER_02 (52:12):
Yeah, anywhere in the US and Canada, if your
bookstore doesn't have it,please ask them to carry it.
And they should be able to orderit for you and also anywhere
online.
SPEAKER_00 (52:22):
You betcha.
We'll have some links in ourshow notes, everybody.
So you can just click away andget that book that Melanie
wrote.
We do have a standard questionwe ask all our guests about, and
that's for a pet story.
And we have been talking aboutyour your dog Hammy.
Do you have any pet stories fromyour life you could share with
us?
SPEAKER_02 (52:41):
I'll just say that I started my life with Dachshunds
because my parents were inGermany.
My dad was stationed there inthe army, and they came home and
had a Dachshund, and then I wasborn, and so this Dachshund was
like my, I guess, my oldersister, and then that Dachshund
had puppies, and so then we hada couple Dachshunds, and they
(53:04):
were just they were around me asI grew up.
I remember being a toddler andhaving them there, and just they
just were always in my life.
So I think that's where I reallybegan to love hounds.
They did always have backproblems though, so that's why
when I sought out another hound,I started looking at beagles.
(53:26):
But Dachshunds certainly have asoft spot in my heart.
SPEAKER_00 (53:31):
Yeah, they're cute little things.
Thanks for sharing.
All right, Melanie, thanks forbeing a guest on the Science
Podcast.
Do you have your own websitethat folks can go to or be
directed to a little bit moreabout yourself?
SPEAKER_02 (53:48):
I do.
It's Melanie D.
G.
Kaplan.
And on Instagram, it's labunderscore dog underscore hammy.
And I'm also on all the othersocial medias.
SPEAKER_00 (54:04):
All right.
Well, make sure we got yourwebsite and then one of your
socials in the show notes sofolks can take a look further.
And I do have to, I do have tosay, you do have uh some
somebody fairly big in theanimal world did a little review
of your book.
Uh sadly, pass away recently,but that's Dr.
Jane Goodall.
(54:25):
That's very cool.
SPEAKER_02 (54:26):
Oh my gosh, I still to this day I'm pinching myself
and I'm so grateful.
It was just an amazing thingthat she did that.
And I remember hearing herinterviewed in some podcasts,
and several times she said thatdogs were her favorite animal.
And so I said, I've just got toreach out and see what it what
(54:48):
happens.
SPEAKER_00 (54:48):
Very, very lucky.
On our socials, we did a post tohonor her.
And yeah, I you, you know,there's you can use audios of
different interviews that are onInstagram.
We use that audio of her.
I believe she was talking to oneof the late-night talk show
hosts about how monkeys aren'ther favorite or apes aren't her
(55:09):
favorite animal because they'retoo much like people.
SPEAKER_02 (55:13):
I love that.
SPEAKER_00 (55:15):
Yeah, there's some there's there's some monkeys
that she really likes, andthere's some monkeys that are
absolute jerks, but it's thedogs that are the best animal
because of their unconditionallove for us.
SPEAKER_02 (55:27):
And because they're not jerks, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (55:29):
And if we are, and if they ever are jerks, it's our
own fault.
We've made them that way.
SPEAKER_02 (55:35):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (55:37):
Yeah.
All right.
Thank you for being a guest andtalking about your book lab dog.
Make sure you pick it up,people.
SPEAKER_02 (55:43):
Thanks so much for the conversation.
This was great.
SPEAKER_00 (55:47):
That's it for this week's show.
Thanks for coming back weekafter week to listen to the
Science Podcast.
And a shout out to all the topdogs.
That's the top tier of ourPatreon community, the Pop Pack.
You can sign up in our shownotes.
All right, Chris, let's hearthose names that are part of the
Top Dogs.
SPEAKER_01 (56:04):
Amelia Fettig, Ree Oda, Carol Hanel, Jennifer
Challen, Linnea Janet, KarenCronister, Vicki Oteiro, Christy
Walker, Sarah Brown, Wendy,Diane, Mason and Luke, Helen
Chin, Elizabeth Goujois,Marianne McNally, Katherine
Jordan, Shelly Smith, LauraSteffenson, Tracy Leinbaugh, Ann
(56:27):
Uchida, Heather Burbach, Kelly,Tracy Halbert, Ben Rather,
Debbie Anderson, Sandy Brimer,Mary Rader, Bianca Hyde, Andrew
Lynn, Brenda Clark, BrianneHobbs, Peggy McKeel, Holly
Birch, Kathy Zirker, SusanWagner, and Liz Button.
SPEAKER_00 (56:46):
For science, empathy, and cuteness.
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