December 13, 2025 • 56 mins
A father that gives birth, a horse that says “no,” and an ER doctor who wants to keep you out of the hospital—this episode brings science and everyday choices into sharp focus. We start with a mind-bending dive into seahorses, where males carry the pregnancy and build a placenta-like environment from skin. New research shows familiar pregnancy genes at work inside the brood pouch, but with an unexpected hormonal switch: androgens, not estrogens, drive gestation. It’s evolution repurposing its toolkit—and a powerful reminder that sex roles in nature are more flexible than we think.
From there, we move into animal-assisted therapy and the role of consent in touch. A new study comparing dogs and horses found that forced interactions with horses raised heart rate and lowered HRV, signaling more stress, while choice calmed people down. Dogs showed no significant difference between conditions, suggesting human perception and species-specific behavior shape outcomes. If you run therapy programs, the insight is simple and humane: build animal choice into sessions, especially with horses, and track long-term welfare alongside human benefits.
Then ER physician Dr. Shazma Mithani joins us to turn insight into prevention. We talk helmets for anything on wheels or snow, why e‑scooters drive more severe injuries per use than bikes, and how regular checkups and screening prevent emergencies before they start. We break down wildfire smoke—how particulates inflame lungs and harm the heart and brain—plus when to wear a well-fitted N95 outside and how to upgrade home air with MERV 11–13 filters or HEPA purifiers. Finally, we tackle measles: an airborne virus that lingers for hours, demands 95% vaccination for herd immunity, and is best stopped with two doses of MMR. Unsure where to get trusted answers? Talk to your doctor, pharmacist, or public health nurse, and lean on credible sources rather than influencers.
If this helped you think differently about biology, safety, or public health, tap follow, share it with a friend, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway—we’ll feature our favorites next week.
Dr. Shazma Mithani's links:
For Science, Empathy, and Cuteness!
Being Kind is a Superpower.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:09):
Hello, science enthusiasts.
I'm Jason Zakowski.
SPEAKER_01 (00:12):
And I'm Chris Zikowski.
SPEAKER_00 (00:14):
We're the pet parents of Bunsen, Beaker,
Bernoulli, and Ginger.
SPEAKER_01 (00:18):
The science animals on social media.
If you love science and you lovepets, you've come to the right
spot.
SPEAKER_00 (00:25):
So put on your safety glasses.
SPEAKER_01 (00:27):
And hold on to your tail.
SPEAKER_00 (00:29):
This is the Science Podcast.
Welcome back to the SciencePodcast.
This is episode 36 of seasonseven.
We hope you're happy and healthyout there.
Chris, are you happy and healthyor are you cold and not liking
our weather?
SPEAKER_01 (00:44):
I'm healthy, so that's the number one.
But two, you're absolutelycorrect.
It felt like minus 34 degreesCelsius with the wind chill this
morning.
So certainly not help, certainlynot happy about the weather.
But it is what it is.
It's just weather.
And I just dream of sunny skiesin summer.
SPEAKER_00 (01:06):
I took the dogs for a walk yesterday, bundled up
Beaker in her snow pants.
She was so happy.
And the burners weren't cold atall.
So I think there's a lowertemperature where if the ambient
temperature is around minus 35,I think that's when Bunsen
doesn't really want to go out.
I've never seen Bernoulli cold.
Have you seen him cold?
(01:27):
Have you seen him look?
SPEAKER_01 (01:29):
He's always happy, always healthy, happy and
healthy out there in the minus35 ambient temperature.
SPEAKER_00 (01:37):
Yeah, I've never seen him cold.
Okay, let's warm up with some ofthe news that we're going to be
looking at this week.
In science news, we're going tobe looking at a new study that
came up that broke down someexplanations as to why seahorse
pregnancy is so interestingbecause the males take a great
(01:57):
big role in it.
In pet science, we are going tobe looking at animal-assisted
interventions and thedifferences or similarities with
using dogs or horses.
So that's cool.
SPEAKER_01 (02:10):
That is super cool for sure.
SPEAKER_00 (02:12):
Yeah.
And our guest and ask an expertis medical doctor, Dr.
Shasma Minthani.
She works actually in Emmettonat the Royal Alberta Stollery
Children's Hospital.
So it's a great discussion withher around communicable
diseases.
And as everybody's gathering forChristmas time, it's important
(02:32):
to think about that and talkabout it.
All right, let's get on with theshow, Chris.
There's no time lake.
SPEAKER_01 (02:38):
Science time.
SPEAKER_00 (02:40):
This week in Science News, let's talk about how
seahorses have bay bait.
SPEAKER_01 (02:46):
Now that was fascinating.
It's super fascinating becausewhen we went to Hawaii, we went
to a seahorse farm.
I was gonna mention that it wasjust so it was so cool, like
impactful.
Going around and around andlearning all about the seahorses
and what they do.
That was one of the highlightsof the trip for me.
SPEAKER_00 (03:05):
Yeah, it was one of the highlights for me too.
And then we got to put our handsin a little tank and the
seahorse tail curled around you.
It was cute.
I couldn't feel it though.
They were so little.
SPEAKER_01 (03:16):
They were tiny seahorses.
SPEAKER_00 (03:18):
So, some other fun facts about seahorses before we
get to the lead is they'reterrible swimmers.
They use ocean currents to movearound because they rely on
their tiny dorsal fin, and thatflaps up to 70 times per second.
But that's kind of like jumpingin a pool with a blanket and
using and flapping the blanketto make yourself swim.
Not super great.
SPEAKER_01 (03:40):
Not super great.
So they have to hitch theirtails to seagrass to avoid
drifting away.
Did you know that their tailsare square, not round?
SPEAKER_00 (03:49):
I think they told us that when we were in Hawaii, but
I would have forgotten.
SPEAKER_01 (03:53):
I would have forgot that too.
But that gives them better gripwhen they're anchoring to coral
or plants.
SPEAKER_00 (03:59):
And one more fun seahorse fact.
So you might win a trivia nightat a pub.
They have a unique cornet that'slike their crown-like structure
on the top of their head.
That's unique to every singleseahorse.
It's like their fingerprint.
That's super cute.
SPEAKER_01 (04:14):
So the least I think the most important part is like
how you lead, how you led intothis was talking about the
pregnancy part.
So seahorses are among the fewfish that form monogamous pair
bonds with and they often greeteach other daily with
synchronized dances.
That's so cute.
SPEAKER_00 (04:33):
That's romantic.
So seahorses are a bit of anevolutionary rule breaker, and
that's the lead of the story.
The findings for this waspublished in Nature and Ecology
and Evolution.
So if there was a best dad awardin the animal kingdom, it
probably wouldn't go to me, butit would go to male seahorses.
SPEAKER_01 (04:55):
Hands down.
SPEAKER_00 (04:56):
Okay, thanks.
Unlike other animals, maleseahorses carry and give birth
to the babies, not the females.
I know that would probably helpout a lot of women if males of
humans helped out that way.
SPEAKER_01 (05:14):
What the females do in the seahorse world is they
deposit their eggs into themale's brood pouch, where the
male then fertilizes, protects,and nourishes them until birth.
And the brood pouch functions inmany ways like a womb, providing
oxygen and nutrients todeveloping embryos.
And then once the male givesbirth or expels the babies, then
(05:39):
the whole cycle begins again.
So the male is just a broodpouch carrier of the babies.
SPEAKER_00 (05:49):
So the female seahorse is foot loose and
fancy-free during this time.
SPEAKER_01 (05:54):
Yes, probably hanging out with her.
SPEAKER_00 (05:57):
Probably drinking wine and watching sex.
SPEAKER_01 (05:59):
Probably, but they're making the eggs to
deposit at this time.
SPEAKER_00 (06:02):
That takes a lot of energy to do that.
So this is well known.
If you've if you studyseahorses, this these this is
not new information.
So what the researchers wantedto know is how the male brood
pouches form and whether theyresemble female pregnancy
tissues at the genetic level.
So if the males are quoteunquote giving birth to bi-bye
(06:26):
seahorses, is the processsimilar to what normal pregnancy
would be in other animals?
SPEAKER_01 (06:34):
And the scientists discovered quite a few
interesting things.
They discovered that theseahorse brood pouches use many
of the same genes involved inpregnancy in female animals.
So the genes that they foundhelp build supportive tissue,
regulate oxygen exchange, anddeliver nutrients to the
embryos.
And so that suggests it's a anevolutionary suggestion that
(06:58):
pregnancy isn't reinvented fromscratch each time.
It's more reduce, reuse,recycle, reusing existing
genetic tools in new ways.
So it's like reusing genes andcells, not brand new
intervention.
SPEAKER_00 (07:14):
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
SPEAKER_01 (07:16):
Exactly.
But there is a big twist.
Of course, in nature, there'salways a big twist.
There's a hormone switch.
So in mammals and other animals,female hormones like estrogen
and progesterone, they triggerthe womb and placenta
development.
In seahorses, actually, a malehormone does that job instead.
(07:40):
Now the researchers aren'tcertain whether the hormone is
testosterone specifically, butit belongs to the androgen
family.
So that's super interesting.
What they did is theyexperimentally exposed
testosterone to femaleseahorses, and they actually
(08:02):
develop brood poaches, and thatconfirmed male hormones can
activate pregnancy-relatedgenes.
SPEAKER_00 (08:09):
So those genes are switched on by that male
hormone.
That's interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (08:14):
Super interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (08:14):
Another interesting thing from the study is they
found that in pregnant males,the seahorse placenta is made
from their skin.
So while the male's pregnant,the brood pouch thickens and the
blood supply increases, andoxygens, oxygen, and nutrients
are delivered to the embryo verymuch like the placenta does.
And it functions like a placentawith a huge difference in that
(08:37):
it just makes itself from theskin, not from the reproductive
tissue in a male seahorse.
And literally that we know of,no other pregnancy system works
this way.
SPEAKER_01 (08:51):
So the father has skin and then it develops into a
brood pouch.
It's just skin.
SPEAKER_00 (08:57):
It would be like a male all of a sudden growing
like a uterus to hold a babybecause it wasn't there before.
SPEAKER_01 (09:05):
Or like a kangaroo pouch.
SPEAKER_00 (09:07):
I guess, I guess it's more like a kangaroo pouch.
SPEAKER_01 (09:10):
But still it's like your kangaroodie.
I call them bunny hugs.
But it's like the pouch in thefront.
Yeah.
That's where I want to putbricks.
SPEAKER_00 (09:20):
So if you're wondering about pregnancy in
evolutionary terms, it's evolvedover 150 times across different
animals, almost always infemales.
And seahorses show that sexroles are not biologically
fixed, and similar outcomes canarise through very different
evolutionary pathways.
Biology, biologists find thisfascinating, and I think it's
(09:43):
really cool.
And many biologists woulddescribe this as one of the most
extreme examples of sex rolereversal known.
SPEAKER_01 (09:52):
Exactly.
And it's very ironic orcoincidental that this article
came across our desk because Iwas talking to my students about
it on Thursday or Fridayafternoon.
SPEAKER_00 (10:05):
As was I.
That's why I wanted to do thisone.
Because in grade nine, rightnow, we're talking about asexual
and sexual reproduction.
And this would be a veryinteresting example of internal
fertilization because normallythe sperm is deposited in the
female, and this way that thisis different.
The egg is deposited in themale.
(10:25):
It's similar in that the gameteshave to be protected, but very
cool role reversal.
Now, would you have given upbeing pregnant to me, Chris?
Would you have hoped to be ableto do that?
SPEAKER_01 (10:36):
No, I actually really okay.
I enjoyed being pregnant.
Now, having said that, I was, Iguess, nauseous for six months
during my first pregnancy, but Ireally loved at the end of the
day being pregnant.
I don't think I would trade it.
SPEAKER_00 (10:53):
So I so we don't have to like genetically worry
about making a brood pouch frommy skin.
SPEAKER_01 (11:00):
No, but we could give you more testosterone and
then see what that does.
Will it turn you into theincredible hulk?
Because you're alreadyincredible.
SPEAKER_00 (11:07):
Probably it would just give me anxiety, anger, and
loss of hair.
So two of the three, the two ofthe three the incredible hulk
has.
All right.
All right, that's science newsfor this week.
This week in Pet Science, let'stalk about a unique
animal-assisted interventionthat was published on
AnthraZoos.
(11:28):
And just quickly, ananimal-assisted intervention.
They are being increasingly usedin healthcare systems and
situations.
We've talked about how dogs gointo hospitals to help calm down
patients.
Dogs go into dentists' officesto help kids deal with really
big mouthwork that they mighthave to do.
So even dogs are at airports tohelp with airport flying
(11:51):
anxiety.
And many of the studies we'velooked at, they're very
positive, meaning that when youinteract with an animal, you
have better mental and physicalhealth outcomes with whatever
you're doing while you'reinteracting with that animal.
SPEAKER_01 (12:05):
There is tons of data out there about that
positive mental and physicalhealth outcome connection.
But the idea of touch.
Touch is a central idea orcomponent of many
animal-assisted interventions.
But how touch conditions affecthuman physiology and emotions is
not fully understood.
(12:27):
So this study actually focusedon whether forced versus
consensual touch with animalsinfluences the human responses.
SPEAKER_00 (12:37):
So that's interesting.
So they were the purpose of thestudy, of course, was to, as you
said, examine those touchinteractions during
animal-assisted interventions.
And they tested in the humanstheir heart rate and their heart
rate variability.
That's the HRV.
And they did a survey on theiremotional states before and
(12:58):
after.
They compared the results whenanimals were forced to interact
versus animals were allowed tochoose who to interact with.
So that was more consensualtouch.
Like we can tell Bunsen andBeaker, and we're working on
this with Bernoulli, but we cantell Bunsen or Bruno Bunsen and
Beaker, go see this kid, andthey'll pat over and the kid
(13:18):
gets to touch them.
And maybe that's not realconsensual touch.
I don't know.
But also Bunsen and Beakerchoose kids that they want to
see.
And Bunsen, especially, whenI've taken him into the school,
he picks a few kids that hereally likes and then he gloms
onto them, whereas Beaker is asocial butterfly and she flits
between all the kids.
Now, the interesting thing aboutthis study is they also threw
(13:41):
horses into the mix.
So they were comparing dogs andhorses.
Interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (13:48):
And what that allowed them to do was to
compare effects between thespecies of the horse and dogs,
and also to determine whetherprior experience with horses
influences human responses.
Because not everybody just getsto see a horse every day.
SPEAKER_00 (14:03):
Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (14:04):
So in the study design and the participants,
there were two separateexperiments conducted.
The horse experiment contained10 horses, and the dog
experiment contained 18 dogs.
In the human participant world,49 participants interacted
individually with horses, and 44participated, 44 participants
(14:27):
interacted individually withdogs.
Now, what they did is each pereach participant completed
interactions under twoconditions.
One of the conditions was forcedtouch.
So the animal was restricted andrequired to interact with the
participant.
And the second condition wasconsensual touch, where the
(14:49):
animal was free to choose theinteraction.
SPEAKER_00 (14:53):
They did a bunch of stats.
They tested all of the things wementioned, heart rate
variability, their positiveeffect state.
That was a survey, as Imentioned, and ran the numbers.
And here are the results.
So when they crunched all thenumbers, here's what happened in
the horse group.
Forced touch humans had a higherheart rate and a lower
(15:15):
variability.
So these findings indicategenerally greater physiological
arousal and stress during thoseforced interactions.
SPEAKER_01 (15:25):
Interestingly, looking more at the horse and
the participants, if there wasprevious horse experience, the
survey or the researchers lookedat the how does that influence
the participant?
And what they found is thatprevious horse experience or the
level of experience with horsesdid not affect the human heart
(15:46):
rate, and it did not affect thehuman HRV, the variability in
their heart rate.
But having experience withhorses did influence the
emotional responses.
The more experiencedparticipants felt less
activated.
SPEAKER_00 (16:08):
Yeah, horses are big though.
Like they're huge.
But they if you've never beenaround a horse before, just you
know, having more experiencemight give you a leg up.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (16:18):
I've been around horses.
We've raised horses, we've hadhorses on the farm, and they
mirror what you're feeling.
So they're a really goodindicator, and there is a whole
field of study into equinetherapy.
And the a friend of mine that wewent through our master's
together, that was her project,and she looked at equine
(16:38):
therapy, and she actually is ona farm and has horses, and she
was able to bring them into theschool, which was super awesome
and amazing.
I think they brought the kids toher farm.
SPEAKER_00 (16:47):
Yeah, she didn't take the horse.
Yeah, no, to take a horse into aschool.
Yeah, no, they I mean, what isthis like 1910 in the your it's
my grandpa's story, riding hishorse to school?
SPEAKER_01 (16:57):
No, but like the children were able to interact
with uh well-trained horse at afacility.
SPEAKER_00 (17:03):
Yeah, that's cool.
Now moving over to the dogresults, the touch condition had
no significant effect.
So whether it was forced orconsensual, yeah, whether it was
forced or consensual.
So having the dog somewhatrestrained didn't affect the
heart rate variability or theiremotional score, or letting the
dog find a person didn't affectit either.
(17:24):
So there was no difference.
And the conclusion is that theparticipants probably perceive
the dog interactions morepositively than horse
interactions, maybe because likerestraining a dog just means
they're on a leash versus not.
Conclusions of the studyprobably lead towards allowing
(17:46):
animals a choice to engage,especially if they're horses.
It improves the emotionalexperience and it reduces
psychological arousal.
But with dogs, there doesn'tseem to be any difference.
The effects of the forcedinteraction was a lot stronger
for horses.
SPEAKER_01 (18:03):
So, of course, when you complete a study, you get
some answers potentially, butthen you're also left with more
questions.
So there are some implicationsfor further research, maybe to
explore why dogs and horseselicit different human responses
and investigating a long-termeffect of consensual versus
(18:26):
forced interactions.
And then also the last one couldbe examining animal welfare
outcomes along with the humanbenefits.
Because I know that when I'mwalking around with our new
little cat, Bricks, when he iscuddled in my arms, I love it.
When he's trying to be get awaybecause he feels restrained, I
(18:46):
don't love it.
And I just want him to cuddle inmy arms every day, all day.
SPEAKER_00 (18:52):
Yeah, Bricks is way better than ginger.
If you pick up ginger and shedoesn't want to be picked up,
she just goes, No, like shestarts meowing right away that
she does not like what'shappening at all.
SPEAKER_01 (19:03):
But Brixy, he's oh okay, you can pick me up and you
can carry me around and I'llpurr.
And then I see that there's atreat, so bye.
He's very opportunistic.
SPEAKER_00 (19:14):
Yeah, but he's mostly cuddly.
He's mostly cuddly.
He does get squirmy, but not hedoesn't protest as Ginger does.
Maybe they need to do a cat onefor this forced cat.
How do you force a cat to go seesomebody?
Forced cat interaction versusthe cat chooses you.
Man, if a cat chooses you, I betyou everything is the best
(19:35):
because you've been blessed.
SPEAKER_01 (19:36):
The best.
SPEAKER_00 (19:37):
You've been blessed if a cat chooses you.
Like a cat in a room with 20people and the cat chooses a
person, go out and buy a lotteryticket.
SPEAKER_01 (19:45):
Or go get some allergy medication.
Because they usually pick thepeople who are allergic.
SPEAKER_00 (19:51):
All right, that's pet science for this week.
It's time for Ask an Expert onthe Science Podcast, and I have
Dr.
Shazma Manthani with us today.
Who is an ER doc?
How are you doing today?
SPEAKER_02 (20:03):
I'm doing great, Jason.
How are you today?
SPEAKER_00 (20:06):
I'm good.
I introduced you as a doc.
And where are you in the world?
Where are you calling into theshow from?
SPEAKER_02 (20:12):
So I'm in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
And I'm an emergency doctor.
Yeah, I work in the ER.
SPEAKER_00 (20:19):
Sweet.
That is a job that is many timesdramatized on TV.
Did you always want to be an ERdoc when you were little?
Like work as a doctor or work inthe fast-paced area you are now?
SPEAKER_02 (20:34):
No, I didn't really realize I wanted to be a doctor
until late in high school, orcertainly that's when it started
to when I started to think aboutit more seriously because of how
much I liked chemistry andbiology.
So as a chemistry teacher, I'msure you like to hear that.
But didn't so much like physics,but like definitely liked
chemistry and biology and didpharmacology in undergrad.
(20:55):
So lots and lots of chemistry inthat and biochemistry.
And then just felt like medicinewas a good applied way to use
those sciences with humaninteraction, which I love.
I love people and I love beingaround people.
And so that's in grade 12 intoundergrad is when I started
really thinking about it moreseriously.
SPEAKER_00 (21:14):
And to be where you are, just for folks that maybe
are wanting to know more aboutthat path or interested in
themselves.
What is your training to be anER doc?
I'd imagine it's similar inNorth America, like south of us
to the States, but just inCanada, for example.
SPEAKER_02 (21:32):
Yeah.
So in Canada, I did my undergradfirst.
So that's four years.
And then it was four years ofmedical school after that.
Some places, there are a coupleof places in Canada have that
have three-year medical schoolswhere they don't have summers.
I did four years of medicalschool and then I did five years
of residency to specialize inbecoming an emergency doctor.
(21:53):
So yeah, I guess do the math onthat.
So that's a lot of years.
SPEAKER_00 (21:57):
That's a long tall.
Yeah.
I have been in the ER a fewtimes myself.
So I've made use of theemergency room.
I've talked to a few ER doctors.
And in your bio, you saidsomething there's something
really powerful on your socialmedia.
And I think it's also on yourwebsite.
You want, and hopefully you cancorrect me if I'm wrong, but
(22:19):
this is what I think I'm quotingit.
You want to empower us all withthe tools to stay out of the ER.
I was thinking about that, and Iwas like, the you have a
profession, perhaps, that thebest day ever would be when
there's nobody coming in to seeyou.
Is am I on the right track?
SPEAKER_02 (22:40):
Yeah, I mean, there's so many things in the
emergency room and just medicinein general that are entirely
preventable.
And for me, living in Canada, wehave a publicly funded
healthcare system that is, tome, like such a part of part of
our identity as Canadians andsuch an important part of being
a doctor here is that it isaccessible to people no matter
(23:03):
what your ability to pay is.
And that is a valuable part ofour Canadian identity.
And the the reason that I gotinto this space on social media
was coming out of the COVID-19pandemic, we still had very
overloaded emergency departmentswhere people were coming in,
they didn't have family doctorsor access to primary and
preventative care.
And we're coming into the ERbecause they didn't know where
(23:23):
else to go.
But a lot of these things eitherare A, preventable or B, could
be managed at home or at awalk-in clinic or at an urgent
care rather than coming to theEMERGE.
And so my end goal was that if Ican keep people out of the
eMERGE that don't need to bethere, then the eMERGE is there
for the people that truly needit.
(23:44):
Yeah.
And so that's why I starteddoing these educational videos
and I have a podcast myself nowwith my friend and co-host.
And so just to try to againinform people and arm them,
empower them with information sothat they can take control of
their own health and understandwhat the like how important
preventative health is as well.
Because the idea is if we cankeep people healthy, help them
(24:08):
have the information to managethings at home, then we keep
them out of the hospital.
And that's better for everybody.
SPEAKER_00 (24:15):
Yeah, exactly.
Can you plug your what's yourpodcast?
Just so you mentioned it and Idon't want to like swing back
and forget.
SPEAKER_02 (24:22):
Yeah, so the podcast is called the Doc Talk Podcast.
My co-host, Sheila Wajayasinga,is a family doctor with a focus
on women's health who's inToronto.
Um, and then I do Emerge.
And so between the two of us, wehave a lot of quite a breadth of
knowledge in the medicine space.
And so we talk about all sortsof topics with the intended
audience not being doctors, butbeing the general public to help
(24:44):
demystify health a little bit.
SPEAKER_00 (24:46):
I love that.
That's cool.
Okay, we will have a link toyour podcast in our show notes,
everybody.
So you can click on that and notwhen you're driving.
So if you're one of those peoplethat listen to a podcast and
drive, I'd imagine that's oneway you're gonna wind up in the
ER.
We don't want that.
SPEAKER_02 (25:00):
Um no, don't want that.
SPEAKER_00 (25:02):
But I but just piggybacking back to things we
could do to keep us out of theER.
Can we talk about that a littlebit?
What are some ways, what aresome things you see that are
preventable that that doe headslike me might get ourselves
into?
SPEAKER_02 (25:19):
Yeah, so lots of so many injuries in particular are
preventable.
So the first thing thatimmediately comes to mind is
wearing helmets.
So a lot of people think ofhelmets as just related to
bicycles, or even don't wearthem with bicycles, but that is
so much broader than that.
For me, what I always say islike anything that is a wheeled
(25:39):
device that you can go fasterthan walking on, you should be
wearing a helmet.
So a scooter, a skateboard,rollerblades, or roller skates.
Yes, a bicycle as well.
Things like other things thatpeople don't think of.
Snow sports, so skiing,snowboarding, sledding as well.
Helmets really important becauseI've seen a lot of head injuries
in those situations too.
(26:01):
Equestrian sports.
Like there are so many thingsthat helmets are useful for to
protect the one brain that youhave.
And like injuries are a bigthing.
And then of using substances,right?
So yes, if you want to usesubstances, use them.
But use them, yeah, use themsafely.
So whether you know it's alcoholor cannabis or other substances,
(26:21):
humans are going to usesubstances that is part of our
beings, but use themresponsibly.
Don't operate heavy machinery,don't use alone.
So just having more parametersor boundaries in place when
you're using substances, that'sanother big one.
And then even broader than thatis like things as simple as
being able to have things likeyour blood pressure and your
(26:41):
cholesterol under control,because these are things down
the road, if they're notcontrolled, your diabetes as
well, that lead to things likestrokes and heart attacks.
And those again are like overthe long term preventable.
So not so acute like in injuriesor substances, but those are
things where visits to the ERdown the road can certainly be
prevented by having that part ofyour health under control, too.
SPEAKER_00 (27:03):
I've got a quick question for you, just about
something you mentioned, becauseI covered it on the podcast, my
podcast like a year ago.
There, have you seen anexplosion in injuries from the
e-scooters that are everywhere?
Because have you seen thatreflect itself in your ER?
SPEAKER_02 (27:18):
Yes, absolutely.
I've made so many videos aboute-scooters telling people not to
use e-scooters.
I don't think that we should,this is probably an unpopular
opinion.
They are they are quitedangerous.
I've seen quite significantinjuries between my colleagues
and I with e-scooters, likedevastating head injuries that
have ended people up in theintensive care unit, broken
bones that require surgery,severe concussions, rib
(27:43):
fractures, like so manydifferent injuries from
e-scooters.
These things get going reallyfast.
And when people are using them,they're often intoxicated, or in
a busy space with lots of othervehicles around them, whether it
be a bicycle or cars aroundthem.
And so that makes and often notwearing a helmet.
So that makes these particularlyunsafe.
(28:03):
A lot of people ask me why Ikind of harp on e-scooters
instead of bicycles, and a lotof that actually just has to do
with the data.
So when we look at the data,e-scooters actually do
proportionally like more peopleride bikes.
So, of course, as an absolutenumber, injuries related to
bikes are going to be higher.
But when you look at it on aquote unquote per capita or on a
per use basis, e-scootersactually lead to more injuries.
(28:24):
There is some good data to showthat.
So that's why I don't likee-scooters.
I see a lot of injuries withthem.
SPEAKER_00 (28:29):
I think that I saw that there was a study we looked
at last year, too.
And you can correct me if I'mwrong, but what I seem to
remember was the per capitainjury is higher, but the chance
of a catastrophic injury is alsohigher.
Something that is way like bigwould require, I'm not sure the
exact parameters of a severeinjury, but more severe
(28:52):
injuries, or even I think thestudy called them catastrophic
injuries.
SPEAKER_02 (28:56):
Yep, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (28:58):
I'm just glad those little hoverboard things didn't
catch on.
SPEAKER_02 (29:01):
Did oh my yeah, those I do know those look scary
too.
Like they're even moreunbalanced looking than these
e-scooters.
SPEAKER_00 (29:10):
Our school, if you can believe it, years ago when
they were so popular, theybought six of them.
Six of these hoverboards, andthe administrators were zipping
around on them because just likethis cool thing.
And I think somebody crashed andreally hurt themselves, and then
that was the end of the end ofthose hoverboards.
(29:30):
Little hoverboards, right?
You're probably not wearing ahelmet when you're on a
hoverboard inside of schoolzipping around, anyways.
SPEAKER_02 (29:37):
That's a good point.
Probably not.
SPEAKER_00 (29:39):
You mentioned cholesterol and high blood
pressure.
When should people get thatchecked?
If you go through life andunless you are in a position
where your blood is checked,like when do you go?
Because uh you have to have yourblood taken for at least
cholesterol levels.
When is that?
SPEAKER_02 (30:00):
Yeah, and so I think the the most important thing for
people to know from that is tosee their doctor regularly for
checkups.
So it's not necessarily everyyear, right?
So there are lots ofjurisdictions now that are
saying see your doctor every twoyears, especially if you're
otherwise healthy.
But when you go to see yourdoctor, that's when they'll
check your blood pressure.
That's when they'll do bloodtests depending on what your
(30:21):
risks are and what your age is,because there are lots of
different factors that go intohow early to start testing.
So if you're someone that, forexample, has a family history of
high cholesterol or has a familyhistory of heart disease,
stroke, high blood pressure,your family doctor will start
testing you earlier for thosethings.
If you're someone that is inlike a zero risk category,
they'll likely start testing youlater for those things.
(30:43):
But that is where primary carewith your family doctor or nurse
practitioner comes in becausethey're checking those things
regularly so that they can pickthose abnormal numbers up and
then treat you when you need tobe treated.
SPEAKER_00 (30:56):
Okay, cool.
All right.
I do need to make an appointmentwith our I think we are family
doctor retired, so we have a newfamily doctor, but I do need to
make an appointment with ourdoctor.
So that's a good reminder formyself.
SPEAKER_02 (31:09):
Yeah, and high blood pressure, high cholesterol, but
other sorts of regularlyscreened things.
So lots of cancers requirescreening at different ages.
And so seeing your family doctorregularly so that they can let
you know, hey, you're 50, so youshould start getting colon
cancer screening, for example.
Or you're a woman in between theages of 40 and 50, depending on
(31:30):
where you are.
This is a good time to startgetting breast cancer screening.
So these are other importantthings that your family doctor
can have these conversationswith you about as you get older
and as you age into thosethings.
SPEAKER_00 (31:41):
Gotcha.
Okay, cool.
Pro tip, everybody, make sureyou're seeing your family doctor
if you can.
SPEAKER_02 (31:48):
Yes, absolutely.
Another important thing is likea lot of people don't have
family doctors right now.
So the latest Kai Hi data saysthat over six million Canadians
are without a family doctor,probably similar proportions in
the US.
And that so if you don't have afamily doctor, even just finding
a walk-in clinic, the same onethat you go to regularly, or
(32:09):
finding a clinic that has afamily medicine clinic that has
doctors and also nursepractitioners that does
practices teen-based care.
There are other ways to get careif you don't have a specific
family doctor.
So important to mention thattoo.
SPEAKER_00 (32:21):
Good point.
Yeah, I was thinking about thatbecause we we struggled finding
another doctor when our awesomeguy retired.
So yeah, I can imagine otherCanadians are struggling too.
But that's you can always youmight have to wait, depending on
how busy the walk-in is, butthat's a solution, obviously.
In the past, you had uh kind oflike a regular radio column for
(32:43):
CBC in your uh freelancer nowwith both them and the Globe and
Mail.
I was wondering if you couldtalk to us a little bit about
that.
That's cool.
SPEAKER_02 (32:51):
Yeah, so the CBC thing is actually something that
started as a video column duringthe pandemic, where I was doing
similar things to what I'm doingon my social media channels,
which is just picking a specifichealth topic and having a short
little video.
So I was making these videos athome by myself because it was
like right in the thick of thepandemic.
And so it was great.
Like it was we the producers andI would find a topic together.
(33:13):
So it ranged from things likenosebleeds to like poor air
quality to gastrointestinalillness to just whatever topic
kind of seems topical at thattime.
And then as things evolved, weactually moved to a weekly radio
column with CBC Edmonton.
And so similarly, I would gointo studio every Wednesday
afternoon and talk aboutwhatever thing was topical.
(33:36):
In the fall, we talked aboutinfluenza and COVID, talked
about injuries, talked aboute-scooters as well.
So lots of different topics.
And then now that's I go back toCBC depending on whether there's
a need for it.
And then I've started recentlydoing some freelance writing
with the Globe and Mail as well.
My first uh first column waslast month, and that was on five
(33:59):
things to keep you out of theemergency department.
And then more recently, justlast week, I had a column uh
talking about air quality andwildfires and how that kind of
affects health.
That's been a fun thing just tonot only use my voice and video
skills, but to be able to use mywriting skills too.
SPEAKER_00 (34:14):
Nice.
That is a perfect segue into thewildfire smoke thing.
SPEAKER_02 (34:21):
It's been it was it's been bad as well.
And he had soccer canceled forthe kids.
I was canceling outdoor runs,and yeah, it wasn't great.
SPEAKER_00 (34:29):
I don't remember wildfire smoke being as
oppressive as it has been in thelast five, six years.
Is my question, I guess, to you,as somebody who's who wrote
about this and knows more thanme, is the smoke like, is it
just annoying or is it truly badfor us?
Like it's something we need tobe concerned about.
SPEAKER_02 (34:51):
I would say the latter.
And Jason, I guess to your pointearlier, yes, it is getting
worse.
I grew up in Alberta, so I knowwhat the summers have been like.
In my memory, and like the 40years of my life, I the summers
are getting hotter and they'regetting smokier.
And in particular, I recall Iwhen I was pregnant with my
second child in 2018, the summerof 2018, that was it was it
(35:13):
happened to be a smoky summer,and it was the first time I
remember like having to chooseto stay indoors because of how
bad the smoke was.
So that was six years ago.
And then actually, so there isdata that showed that the 2023
wildfire season, so not lastsummer, but the summer before,
was actually Canada's worstwildfire season on record.
(35:35):
And unfortunately, the 2025season is thought to be starting
out at a similarly intenselevel.
So, yes, it is getting worse,and it's not just yes, it's
annoying, but it's alsoconcerning from a health
standpoint.
So, both in the short term andthe long term, there are
well-documented negative effectson health due to air pollution
(35:59):
secondary to wildfire smoke.
SPEAKER_00 (36:02):
Is it the particulates in the air, like
all of the crap that is comingfrom the fires?
And then you breathe that in thecity.
SPEAKER_02 (36:08):
That's exactly it.
SPEAKER_00 (36:09):
Some kind of carcinogen, some kind of do we
know the mechanism as to whyit's bad, or just it's really
not something humans shouldbreathe in.
So it that's why it's bad.
I don't know what yeah, so it'sa few things.
SPEAKER_02 (36:22):
And so air pollution is essentially like measuring
suspended particles in the air.
So whether that's fromwildfires, whether that's from
fossil fuel combustion orvehicle emissions, right?
Though those are like there arethese small suspended particles
in the air that then stay there.
And so depending on what theconcentration of those particles
is, that gives us an air qualityhealth index.
(36:44):
And so a lower number is lowpollution or low, low
particulate matter in the air,and then a higher number, so one
is the lowest, and then 10 plusis the highest.
So a higher number means a muchhigher density of these
particles suspended in the air.
And what ends up happening isyes, you breathe them in, and so
they have a direct impact onyour lung tissue acutely in that
(37:05):
moment, but then they canactually also be absorbed into
your blood.
They can cause inflammation inyour body as well.
And although the exact kind ofmechanism isn't known, there is
this element of chronicinflammation and then can lead
to chronic lung disease andreduced function.
We know that there are alsonon-lung effects of air
pollution as well.
(37:25):
So it can affect your heart, itcan affect your brain, it can
affect your blood vessels aswell, and it can certainly
affect your cancer risk.
And this can happen over thelong term.
So not just that you go outsideand it's smoky and you feel like
you're coughing or it mighttrigger an asthma attack or that
sort of thing.
There is data from actually thegovernment of Canada, from
(37:46):
Health Canada, that looked atprolonged exposure over a
lifetime of just air pollutionin general.
And people that had more kind ofpollution-filled days that they
were exposed to actually endedup having a lower life
expectancy for multiplemultitude of reasons, but it has
an effect beyond just beingannoying and affecting the
lungs.
It actually can affect longevityand can lead to chronic
(38:09):
illnesses too.
SPEAKER_00 (38:10):
Yeah, I'm sure it's also reflect that seems like
it's reflected in other studiesI've looked at, like folks who
live around a coal-burningplant, right?
The life expectancies of thefolks that live around that area
uh is less.
It's statistical.
Yeah.
I'm just trying to I'll cutthis, but I'm just trying to
look back in time to see whatthe air quality index was in
(38:34):
Calgary last week, but I thinkit was like the high risk, like
there's five of them orsomething.
SPEAKER_02 (38:40):
Um yeah, so we had like multiple 10 plus days.
So like the high, like if youlook at the air quality health
index, like the AQHI, which iswhat Environment Canada uses,
the highest you can go is 10plus.
Once there's like a certainthreshold that's reached, they
basically stop measuring becauseit's all bad above that.
And so we had, yeah, multipledays of seven, eight, and then
10 plus as well in Edmonton.
SPEAKER_00 (39:02):
It went up to 10.
Fans of Spinal Tap would behappy if they had an 11, right?
So love turn it up to 11.
After 10, it's just crazy bad.
Like they just don't, they justhave no adjectives to describe
it further.
That's pretty much it's justbad, bad.
SPEAKER_02 (39:18):
And that's the level.
So there's three categories ofpoor air quality.
So there's kind of one to three,which is low risk.
And so that's where, like ingeneral, it's okay to be
outside.
Like it's safe for the generalpopulation and even at risk
populations to be outside.
When we're at like the moderaterange of four to six, that's
where if you're in a low riskgroup, yes, it's still okay to
(39:40):
be outside.
Just be mindful of yoursymptoms.
But if you're in a high riskgroup, like if you have
underlying heart issues or lungissues, then that's when it's
recommended for those people tostay indoors.
Once you get to seven to 10plus, that's when actually like
everyone, no matter what yourrisk category is, even if you're
a low risk person, should reallyjust not spend time outside
because it's risky for everybodythen at that point.
(40:00):
Point.
SPEAKER_00 (40:00):
What I I uh okay, let's say you had to go outside,
right?
Like, what can you do?
Do you wear one of those M95masks?
Do you like yes?
You hold your breath?
So that's okay.
All right.
SPEAKER_02 (40:13):
Run to the garage and get in the car.
Yeah, no, so that's a goodquestion.
So if they're if you have to beoutside, try to limit the amount
of time that you are outside.
And when you are outside, whenyou're in that if we're at the
high risk, the high riskcategory of air pollution, or
you're in a risk group and it'slike moderate or higher, then
wearing a well-fitted N95respirator mask, so not a
(40:34):
surgical mask, like not thoseblue masks, but the ones that
are like N95 respirators thatseal well around your nose and
your face and your chin, becausethose are like the N95 category
is a filtration level that'senough to prevent those
particles or as many of thoseparticles as needed to get
through and into your lungs.
(40:54):
So if you have to be outside,then wearing a respirator is
going to be important to protectyour body.
SPEAKER_00 (41:02):
And I have one more question, and it's cropped up on
social media.
Maybe you've come across thisand no, I don't know.
But there there are someconcerns that our homes aren't
super safe when it's so smokyoutside, especially if you have
air conditioning units that aresucking air into your house.
Air's gonna get into your houseanyways if it's hot and you have
(41:25):
your windows open.
Is that a concern?
SPEAKER_02 (41:27):
Yes, it is.
And so that's a really goodquestion as well.
If you have an air conditionerthat's like a built-in air
conditioner in your home, andyou have then a HEPA system in
your home, like having theappropriate level of filtration.
So there's like MERV, which isit's called MERV.
So like either 11 or 13 are likethe two levels of MERV filters
(41:50):
that are are enough to filterout the air pollution particles
from the air that's being drawninto the home.
If you don't have an airconditioner or you need to have
the windows open or that sort ofthing, then just having a
portable air purifier and filteris helpful as well.
So Health Canada actually has alist of kind of the criteria or
(42:11):
the specifications that youshould look for in air purifiers
when you're looking at airpurifiers for your home or
filters for your kind of furnacein HEPA or HRB, I should say,
not HEPPA, your HRB system.
So if you go to Health Canadaand just like Google or like
search air purifiers HealthCanada, there's an entire list
of specifications and someexamples of ones that are that
they recommend as well.
SPEAKER_00 (42:31):
Oh, sweet.
Okay, that's cool.
Yeah, it was just something I'vebeen seeing crop up on social
media.
I don't know the scienceaccounts off the top of my head
that maybe have been mentioningit, but that's something they
were mentioning.
And I was like, oh, geez, that'snot so good.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (42:46):
So it's and that's an important thing to keep in
mind as well, especially whenit's like multiple days of poor
air quality, making sure thatyou have a way to filter the air
that's entering your home orcontinuing to filter the air
that is circulating in your homeas well.
SPEAKER_00 (43:01):
Moving away from wildfire smoke to something that
is now spreading like awildfire, and that's measles.
Are we have a lot of Americanswho listen to our show, and they
might be shocked to know thatAlberta, we have a huge measles
outbreak, like bad for ourpopulation size.
I don't know if you have anyfeedback for us on that or
(43:21):
things we can watch out for.
SPEAKER_02 (43:23):
Yeah, so this is something that, to be honest,
only felt like it was going tobe a matter of time before we
had a measles outbreak, andthat's simply because measles is
so exquisitely contagious.
It's actually one of the mostcontagious pathogens known to
humans.
It is, yeah, it's spread throughthe air, so airborne.
And the challenging thing aboutmeasles is not only is it spread
(43:46):
in the air, it actually hangsaround in the air for a few
hours after the infected personhas left it, which makes it,
that's what makes it socontagious.
Because it's not just being inthe same room or the same space
as someone who has measles andbreathing in their air.
Even once that person leavesthat space, that the measles
continues to float around in theair for two to three hours
afterwards.
(44:06):
And just like then entering thatspace, like going to a grocery
store or going to an airport orgoing to a library, like all of
those things are potential riskif there's someone that's walked
through there with measles andmaybe was early in their illness
and didn't quite have all thesymptoms yet and didn't weren't
isolating yet.
And so that's why measles hasspread like wildfire, like you
(44:28):
said, because it's so incrediblycontagious.
We've also seen, unfortunately,a steady decline in vaccination
rates with the MMR vaccine,which again is part of why we
are starting to see a resurgenceof cases again.
When you have a disease that'sas contagious as measles, you
actually need a high level ofvaccination to reach herd
immunity, which is the amount ofvaccines that like the general
(44:52):
population needs to preventmeasles from coming into that
population.
And so for measles, because it'sso contagious, that number is
95%.
So 95% of people have to bevaccinated in order to have herd
immunity, which is a high levelof vaccination.
But I'll remind your listenersthat actually like back in 1998,
Canada was considered eradicatedof measles because we did have
(45:13):
such a good vaccination rate.
I know.
And it's and it is frustrating.
It's frustrating as like ascience educator, it's
frustrating as a physician.
And the challenging part for meis like I don't blame
individuals for not gettingvaccinated.
What I blame is the blatant misand disinformation that is out
there on social media and alsolike people in the public eye
(45:37):
who sow this mistrust invaccines that is unfounded.
And so when people are hearingall of these things from so many
different directions and theirfavorite social media influencer
is questioning whether we needan MMR vaccine, uh of course
they're gonna have hesitancy.
That of course that's going tohappen.
And so, yeah, that that's whereI put the blame.
I put the blame on the peoplewho have platforms and people
(46:01):
like RFK Jr.
that are worsening vaccinehesitancy, getting us in a
situation like this.
SPEAKER_00 (46:08):
Yeah, it's quite the situation.
SPEAKER_02 (46:10):
Ontario has a big outbreak right now as well.
I think we actually have more ona per capita basis.
Yeah, exactly.
So we actually have more on aper capita basis now.
And we are seeing severecomplications from this.
And the problem, one of theother problems is because we
have grown up at a time where wedidn't have to worry about
measles, our memories are short.
(46:31):
We don't actually know peoplewho have had bad outcomes for
measles because we all had ourvaccines when we were little,
yeah, and then haven't seen whatthe consequences of measles are.
And so these are things like youcan get severe lung swelling
that you need to have beyond aventilator for.
You can get severe brainswelling leading to permanent
brain damage, you can get severeimmune suppression that like
(46:52):
happens, like where you'reimmunocompromised and for the
rest of your life.
You can die from this.
We've seen, unfortunately, casesin the US and now in Canada as
well, where young babies havedied from this.
Yeah.
And this is not a this is not abenign disease.
And you don't see people dyingor having complications when
they've been vaccinated.
The vaccine is extremelyeffective.
(47:12):
Two doses of the R vaccine areover 97% effective at preventing
measles.
And if you are in that unlucky3%, then you're going to have
very mild disease.
So this is like a life-savingand complication reducing and
avoiding vaccine that is safeand effective.
And unfortunately, there's beena lot of mis and disinformation
(47:34):
that has really increased thevaccine hesitancy out there.
The other thing that's reallyconcerning is that like young
babies can't get this vaccine.
The youngest age that you couldget the measles vaccine is at
six months.
So that would be an early dose.
The routine vaccination schedulesays 12 months and then 18
months or older.
So you need two doses.
And now with outbreaks, thatlike public health is
(47:57):
recommending that you can getthe vaccine.
And this is not a newrecommendation.
This has been around for decadeswhere when there are outbreaks,
you can offer the vaccine asearly as six months, and then
you still do get your tworoutine vaccinations after that.
But any babies that are youngerthan six months are fully
exposed.
Like they're exposed whenthey're going out and about
because we don't have that levelof population herd immunity that
(48:19):
we need to protect thevulnerable people in our
population.
SPEAKER_00 (48:23):
That's it would be a scary time to be a new parent.
SPEAKER_02 (48:26):
I can't even imagine if my baby if my kids were young
right now, I feel like I wouldjust like not want to leave the
house, which is not the it's notthe right thing to do.
I know that, but it would beit's so anxiety.
It would be so anxiety provokingfor me.
SPEAKER_00 (48:38):
Yeah.
Especially if you're in theoutbreak zones like southern
Alberta.
Yes.
I wouldn't be taking my baby tothe co-op in some communities in
southern Alberta where all theoutbreaks are.
SPEAKER_02 (48:48):
I was talking to my or like in Texas or New Mexico
in the US, those are highoutbreak areas down there.
SPEAKER_00 (48:53):
As I told you, I teach high school chemistry, and
I will stop my lesson at thestart if there's like pernient
science news.
And I talked about measles.
I'm like when I was in highschool, measles was like this
myth.
Measles was a disease you readabout in historical fiction, or
like you we'd read about it andsay, Oh, they got the measles or
(49:15):
the Mies, and they're what'soutside, and oh, let's read
about this from happeninghundreds of years ago.
And then I went through like thehistoric cases in Alberta, and
it was like zero, zero, zero,two, zero.
Oh, that was a bad year.
There was like 12 dudes who gotit.
SPEAKER_02 (49:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (49:30):
And then now it was like, of course, I did this a
month ago and it was like 500.
And I said, You'll see athousand, you'll see a thousand
by exam break, maybe more, andit's only gonna go up because of
the contagiousness of it.
SPEAKER_02 (49:44):
It's a historic, it has been a historical disease in
med school too.
Like when we I remember when Iwas in med school and residency
learning about measles, we sawthe pictures of the rash, but
it's like not a rash that we'veseen had seen in real life.
Because it, like you said, likethe case it was eradicated,
officially eradicated fromCanada in '98.
(50:04):
And I went to med school farlater than that.
And yeah, we just haven't seenit until now.
SPEAKER_00 (50:10):
It's just wild.
Maybe to put a positive spin onthis is what can we do?
This is not we're perhapsunlucky in Alberta where it's so
high.
I would imagine the vaccinationrates are falling because of
misinformation, disinformationeverywhere.
And it's just the as you said,it's a matter of time.
What do you have some advice forfolks who are listening to the
(50:33):
show?
What can we do to help you guysin the ER and in med and in
medicine?
SPEAKER_02 (50:38):
If you don't have two doses of your MMR vaccine,
please get them.
If you are, if you havequestions or you're worried and
just want some more informationabout the vaccine, go to a
trusted source.
So don't go to social mediabecause there's a lot of miss
and disinformation out there.
Talk to your doctor, talk toyour pharmacist, talk to your
nurse practitioner, talk to yourlocal public health office and
(51:00):
the registered nurses that arethere.
Go to the Health Canada website.
That's a reliable source ofinformation.
And just learn about it and findopportunities to ask questions
to credentialed health careworkers so that we can help
offer you the information thatyou need to hopefully reduce
your hesitancy and talk youthrough it.
(51:21):
Because it is a safe andeffective vaccine.
It does not cause autism thatthat has been debunked time and
time again.
There have been multiple studiesthat have shown that there is no
association.
And it is a safe and effectiveand life-saving vaccine.
So whatever you need to do toget there, please seek out
reliable and credibleinformation to get the
information that you need.
SPEAKER_00 (51:43):
And speaking of reliable and credible
information, we'll have a linkto your Instagram account in our
show notes.
SPEAKER_02 (51:49):
Love it.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (51:51):
All right.
Thanks for that.
I know it's a I am frustrated,but I can't imagine how
frustrated you folks who areworking in medicine are.
So I do appreciate you giving usa little measles talk there.
It's been a so price of mine.
My grandmother got polio theyear the vaccine became widely
available.
So it's like a huge vaccinationis a huge deal for my family.
SPEAKER_02 (52:14):
Yeah, bad.
SPEAKER_00 (52:18):
A whole bunch of stuff from post.
SPEAKER_02 (52:20):
And that's just it, right?
Because there are all of thesevaccine preventable illnesses
that we're so lucky to havevaccines for that we've
eradicated, but they wereeradicated so long ago that we
don't remember how bad theywere.
SPEAKER_00 (52:32):
No.
I tell my students, like, do youremember when there was no
internet?
And they're like, no.
I'm like, exactly.
That's what we're talking about.
SPEAKER_02 (52:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (52:41):
One of the standard questions we ask all of our
guests is a pet story from theirlife to tie the science with the
humanity and the love ofanimals.
And I was wondering if you havea pet story you could share with
us.
SPEAKER_02 (52:54):
Yeah, so I have I didn't actually grow up with
pets, but when I married myhusband, he was someone that
grew up with dogs.
And so our first baby was ayellow lab named Zoe.
She has left us since then, andnow we have a chocolate lab
named Dobby.
So Zoe, so she was our firstbaby.
We loved her so much.
And one of the things that sheloved to do, so she thankfully
(53:18):
being a lab, she wasn't adestroyer of things.
Like she didn't chew things orwreck.
She only wrecked one shoe ofmine ever in the 12 years that
she lived.
She loved being around our socksfor some reason.
And so there, what we wouldoften do is like my husband and
I, we'd go home.
She'd be roaming around thehouse.
And she often just liked toeither stay in her crate or in
on our bed in our bedroom.
(53:39):
And she would actually go intoour hamper and hit hand pick out
or like mouth pick out just thesocks.
Like through all of the otherthings, she would fish out the
socks and then bring them uponto the bed and just like nest
herself around our socks.
And like we would just comehome, go upstairs, find Zoe, and
she'd just be like laying therein her curled up little ball
(54:01):
with just like socks right byher nose.
And I think it's just becauseshe missed us and she went to
smell us.
But the funny part of it is likeshe would ignore all of the
other clothes and just like thesocks.
There was something with thesocks that she would just pick
those out and just bring thoseonto the bed.
Yeah, she just, I don't know,the socks.
She loved the socks.
(54:21):
So I that was a commonoccurrence when we came home and
found her just laying on ourbed.
SPEAKER_00 (54:26):
Aw.
Yes, our first goal, then shewas a destroyer of things, I'm
for sure.
Bernoulli.
SPEAKER_02 (54:34):
Is definitely a destroyer, more of a destroyer
of things for sure.
SPEAKER_00 (54:38):
Bunsen and Beaker aren't, but our new guy,
Bernoulli, he is mischievous.
He will wreck things.
He ate half a boot the otherday.
I couldn't believe it.
Half the root.
SPEAKER_02 (54:48):
Oh wow, that's committed.
SPEAKER_00 (54:50):
That is chaosly committed.
That is committed to the chaosto eat somebody's half.
All right.
Thank you so much for sharingyour pet story with us today.
SPEAKER_02 (54:58):
Yeah, you bet.
SPEAKER_00 (55:00):
I guess as we wrap up, I want to thank you so much
for coming on our show to chat alittle bit about ER, your ER
business to keep us out of thereand making room for folks that
really need it if we can beprevents being there in the
first place.
And wildfire smoke, and then ofcourse, measles.
Shazma, thank you so much forbeing our guest today.
SPEAKER_02 (55:18):
Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_00 (55:20):
That's it for this week's show.
Thanks for coming back weekafter week to listen to the
Science Podcast.
And a shout out to all the topdogs.
That's the top tier of ourPatreon community, The Popack.
You can sign up in our shownotes.
Alright, Chris, let's hear thosenames that are part of the Top
Dogs.
SPEAKER_01 (55:36):
Amelia Fetting, Re Oda, Carol Haino, Jennifer
Challenge, Linnea Janet, KarenCronister, Vicky Oteiro, Christy
Walker, Sarah Brown, Wendy,Diane, Mason and Luke, Helen
Chin, Elizabeth Bourgeois,Marianne McNally, Katherine
Jordan, Shelly Smith, LauraStephenson, Tracy Leinbaugh,
(55:59):
Anne Uchida, Heather Burbach,Kelly, Tracy Halbert, Ben
Rather, Debbie Anderson, SandyBrimer, Mary Rader, Bianca Hyde,
Andrew Lynn, Brenda Clark,Brianne Hawts, Peggy McKeel,
Holly Birch, Kathy Zirker, SusanWagner, and Liz Button.
SPEAKER_00 (56:18):
For science, empathy, and cuteness.
Hello, science enthusiasts.
I'm Jason Zakowski.
SPEAKER_01 (00:12):
And I'm Chris Zikowski.
SPEAKER_00 (00:14):
We're the pet parents of Bunsen, Beaker,
Bernoulli, and Ginger.
SPEAKER_01 (00:18):
The science animals on social media.
If you love science and you lovepets, you've come to the right
spot.
SPEAKER_00 (00:25):
So put on your safety glasses.
SPEAKER_01 (00:27):
And hold on to your tail.
SPEAKER_00 (00:29):
This is the Science Podcast.
Welcome back to the SciencePodcast.
This is episode 36 of seasonseven.
We hope you're happy and healthyout there.
Chris, are you happy and healthyor are you cold and not liking
our weather?
SPEAKER_01 (00:44):
I'm healthy, so that's the number one.
But two, you're absolutelycorrect.
It felt like minus 34 degreesCelsius with the wind chill this
morning.
So certainly not help, certainlynot happy about the weather.
But it is what it is.
It's just weather.
And I just dream of sunny skiesin summer.
SPEAKER_00 (01:06):
I took the dogs for a walk yesterday, bundled up
Beaker in her snow pants.
She was so happy.
And the burners weren't cold atall.
So I think there's a lowertemperature where if the ambient
temperature is around minus 35,I think that's when Bunsen
doesn't really want to go out.
I've never seen Bernoulli cold.
Have you seen him cold?
(01:27):
Have you seen him look?
SPEAKER_01 (01:29):
He's always happy, always healthy, happy and
healthy out there in the minus35 ambient temperature.
SPEAKER_00 (01:37):
Yeah, I've never seen him cold.
Okay, let's warm up with some ofthe news that we're going to be
looking at this week.
In science news, we're going tobe looking at a new study that
came up that broke down someexplanations as to why seahorse
pregnancy is so interestingbecause the males take a great
(01:57):
big role in it.
In pet science, we are going tobe looking at animal-assisted
interventions and thedifferences or similarities with
using dogs or horses.
So that's cool.
SPEAKER_01 (02:10):
That is super cool for sure.
SPEAKER_00 (02:12):
Yeah.
And our guest and ask an expertis medical doctor, Dr.
Shasma Minthani.
She works actually in Emmettonat the Royal Alberta Stollery
Children's Hospital.
So it's a great discussion withher around communicable
diseases.
And as everybody's gathering forChristmas time, it's important
(02:32):
to think about that and talkabout it.
All right, let's get on with theshow, Chris.
There's no time lake.
SPEAKER_01 (02:38):
Science time.
SPEAKER_00 (02:40):
This week in Science News, let's talk about how
seahorses have bay bait.
SPEAKER_01 (02:46):
Now that was fascinating.
It's super fascinating becausewhen we went to Hawaii, we went
to a seahorse farm.
I was gonna mention that it wasjust so it was so cool, like
impactful.
Going around and around andlearning all about the seahorses
and what they do.
That was one of the highlightsof the trip for me.
SPEAKER_00 (03:05):
Yeah, it was one of the highlights for me too.
And then we got to put our handsin a little tank and the
seahorse tail curled around you.
It was cute.
I couldn't feel it though.
They were so little.
SPEAKER_01 (03:16):
They were tiny seahorses.
SPEAKER_00 (03:18):
So, some other fun facts about seahorses before we
get to the lead is they'reterrible swimmers.
They use ocean currents to movearound because they rely on
their tiny dorsal fin, and thatflaps up to 70 times per second.
But that's kind of like jumpingin a pool with a blanket and
using and flapping the blanketto make yourself swim.
Not super great.
SPEAKER_01 (03:40):
Not super great.
So they have to hitch theirtails to seagrass to avoid
drifting away.
Did you know that their tailsare square, not round?
SPEAKER_00 (03:49):
I think they told us that when we were in Hawaii, but
I would have forgotten.
SPEAKER_01 (03:53):
I would have forgot that too.
But that gives them better gripwhen they're anchoring to coral
or plants.
SPEAKER_00 (03:59):
And one more fun seahorse fact.
So you might win a trivia nightat a pub.
They have a unique cornet that'slike their crown-like structure
on the top of their head.
That's unique to every singleseahorse.
It's like their fingerprint.
That's super cute.
SPEAKER_01 (04:14):
So the least I think the most important part is like
how you lead, how you led intothis was talking about the
pregnancy part.
So seahorses are among the fewfish that form monogamous pair
bonds with and they often greeteach other daily with
synchronized dances.
That's so cute.
SPEAKER_00 (04:33):
That's romantic.
So seahorses are a bit of anevolutionary rule breaker, and
that's the lead of the story.
The findings for this waspublished in Nature and Ecology
and Evolution.
So if there was a best dad awardin the animal kingdom, it
probably wouldn't go to me, butit would go to male seahorses.
SPEAKER_01 (04:55):
Hands down.
SPEAKER_00 (04:56):
Okay, thanks.
Unlike other animals, maleseahorses carry and give birth
to the babies, not the females.
I know that would probably helpout a lot of women if males of
humans helped out that way.
SPEAKER_01 (05:14):
What the females do in the seahorse world is they
deposit their eggs into themale's brood pouch, where the
male then fertilizes, protects,and nourishes them until birth.
And the brood pouch functions inmany ways like a womb, providing
oxygen and nutrients todeveloping embryos.
And then once the male givesbirth or expels the babies, then
(05:39):
the whole cycle begins again.
So the male is just a broodpouch carrier of the babies.
SPEAKER_00 (05:49):
So the female seahorse is foot loose and
fancy-free during this time.
SPEAKER_01 (05:54):
Yes, probably hanging out with her.
SPEAKER_00 (05:57):
Probably drinking wine and watching sex.
SPEAKER_01 (05:59):
Probably, but they're making the eggs to
deposit at this time.
SPEAKER_00 (06:02):
That takes a lot of energy to do that.
So this is well known.
If you've if you studyseahorses, this these this is
not new information.
So what the researchers wantedto know is how the male brood
pouches form and whether theyresemble female pregnancy
tissues at the genetic level.
So if the males are quoteunquote giving birth to bi-bye
(06:26):
seahorses, is the processsimilar to what normal pregnancy
would be in other animals?
SPEAKER_01 (06:34):
And the scientists discovered quite a few
interesting things.
They discovered that theseahorse brood pouches use many
of the same genes involved inpregnancy in female animals.
So the genes that they foundhelp build supportive tissue,
regulate oxygen exchange, anddeliver nutrients to the
embryos.
And so that suggests it's a anevolutionary suggestion that
(06:58):
pregnancy isn't reinvented fromscratch each time.
It's more reduce, reuse,recycle, reusing existing
genetic tools in new ways.
So it's like reusing genes andcells, not brand new
intervention.
SPEAKER_00 (07:14):
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
SPEAKER_01 (07:16):
Exactly.
But there is a big twist.
Of course, in nature, there'salways a big twist.
There's a hormone switch.
So in mammals and other animals,female hormones like estrogen
and progesterone, they triggerthe womb and placenta
development.
In seahorses, actually, a malehormone does that job instead.
(07:40):
Now the researchers aren'tcertain whether the hormone is
testosterone specifically, butit belongs to the androgen
family.
So that's super interesting.
What they did is theyexperimentally exposed
testosterone to femaleseahorses, and they actually
(08:02):
develop brood poaches, and thatconfirmed male hormones can
activate pregnancy-relatedgenes.
SPEAKER_00 (08:09):
So those genes are switched on by that male
hormone.
That's interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (08:14):
Super interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (08:14):
Another interesting thing from the study is they
found that in pregnant males,the seahorse placenta is made
from their skin.
So while the male's pregnant,the brood pouch thickens and the
blood supply increases, andoxygens, oxygen, and nutrients
are delivered to the embryo verymuch like the placenta does.
And it functions like a placentawith a huge difference in that
(08:37):
it just makes itself from theskin, not from the reproductive
tissue in a male seahorse.
And literally that we know of,no other pregnancy system works
this way.
SPEAKER_01 (08:51):
So the father has skin and then it develops into a
brood pouch.
It's just skin.
SPEAKER_00 (08:57):
It would be like a male all of a sudden growing
like a uterus to hold a babybecause it wasn't there before.
SPEAKER_01 (09:05):
Or like a kangaroo pouch.
SPEAKER_00 (09:07):
I guess, I guess it's more like a kangaroo pouch.
SPEAKER_01 (09:10):
But still it's like your kangaroodie.
I call them bunny hugs.
But it's like the pouch in thefront.
Yeah.
That's where I want to putbricks.
SPEAKER_00 (09:20):
So if you're wondering about pregnancy in
evolutionary terms, it's evolvedover 150 times across different
animals, almost always infemales.
And seahorses show that sexroles are not biologically
fixed, and similar outcomes canarise through very different
evolutionary pathways.
Biology, biologists find thisfascinating, and I think it's
(09:43):
really cool.
And many biologists woulddescribe this as one of the most
extreme examples of sex rolereversal known.
SPEAKER_01 (09:52):
Exactly.
And it's very ironic orcoincidental that this article
came across our desk because Iwas talking to my students about
it on Thursday or Fridayafternoon.
SPEAKER_00 (10:05):
As was I.
That's why I wanted to do thisone.
Because in grade nine, rightnow, we're talking about asexual
and sexual reproduction.
And this would be a veryinteresting example of internal
fertilization because normallythe sperm is deposited in the
female, and this way that thisis different.
The egg is deposited in themale.
(10:25):
It's similar in that the gameteshave to be protected, but very
cool role reversal.
Now, would you have given upbeing pregnant to me, Chris?
Would you have hoped to be ableto do that?
SPEAKER_01 (10:36):
No, I actually really okay.
I enjoyed being pregnant.
Now, having said that, I was, Iguess, nauseous for six months
during my first pregnancy, but Ireally loved at the end of the
day being pregnant.
I don't think I would trade it.
SPEAKER_00 (10:53):
So I so we don't have to like genetically worry
about making a brood pouch frommy skin.
SPEAKER_01 (11:00):
No, but we could give you more testosterone and
then see what that does.
Will it turn you into theincredible hulk?
Because you're alreadyincredible.
SPEAKER_00 (11:07):
Probably it would just give me anxiety, anger, and
loss of hair.
So two of the three, the two ofthe three the incredible hulk
has.
All right.
All right, that's science newsfor this week.
This week in Pet Science, let'stalk about a unique
animal-assisted interventionthat was published on
AnthraZoos.
(11:28):
And just quickly, ananimal-assisted intervention.
They are being increasingly usedin healthcare systems and
situations.
We've talked about how dogs gointo hospitals to help calm down
patients.
Dogs go into dentists' officesto help kids deal with really
big mouthwork that they mighthave to do.
So even dogs are at airports tohelp with airport flying
(11:51):
anxiety.
And many of the studies we'velooked at, they're very
positive, meaning that when youinteract with an animal, you
have better mental and physicalhealth outcomes with whatever
you're doing while you'reinteracting with that animal.
SPEAKER_01 (12:05):
There is tons of data out there about that
positive mental and physicalhealth outcome connection.
But the idea of touch.
Touch is a central idea orcomponent of many
animal-assisted interventions.
But how touch conditions affecthuman physiology and emotions is
not fully understood.
(12:27):
So this study actually focusedon whether forced versus
consensual touch with animalsinfluences the human responses.
SPEAKER_00 (12:37):
So that's interesting.
So they were the purpose of thestudy, of course, was to, as you
said, examine those touchinteractions during
animal-assisted interventions.
And they tested in the humanstheir heart rate and their heart
rate variability.
That's the HRV.
And they did a survey on theiremotional states before and
(12:58):
after.
They compared the results whenanimals were forced to interact
versus animals were allowed tochoose who to interact with.
So that was more consensualtouch.
Like we can tell Bunsen andBeaker, and we're working on
this with Bernoulli, but we cantell Bunsen or Bruno Bunsen and
Beaker, go see this kid, andthey'll pat over and the kid
(13:18):
gets to touch them.
And maybe that's not realconsensual touch.
I don't know.
But also Bunsen and Beakerchoose kids that they want to
see.
And Bunsen, especially, whenI've taken him into the school,
he picks a few kids that hereally likes and then he gloms
onto them, whereas Beaker is asocial butterfly and she flits
between all the kids.
Now, the interesting thing aboutthis study is they also threw
(13:41):
horses into the mix.
So they were comparing dogs andhorses.
Interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (13:48):
And what that allowed them to do was to
compare effects between thespecies of the horse and dogs,
and also to determine whetherprior experience with horses
influences human responses.
Because not everybody just getsto see a horse every day.
SPEAKER_00 (14:03):
Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (14:04):
So in the study design and the participants,
there were two separateexperiments conducted.
The horse experiment contained10 horses, and the dog
experiment contained 18 dogs.
In the human participant world,49 participants interacted
individually with horses, and 44participated, 44 participants
(14:27):
interacted individually withdogs.
Now, what they did is each pereach participant completed
interactions under twoconditions.
One of the conditions was forcedtouch.
So the animal was restricted andrequired to interact with the
participant.
And the second condition wasconsensual touch, where the
(14:49):
animal was free to choose theinteraction.
SPEAKER_00 (14:53):
They did a bunch of stats.
They tested all of the things wementioned, heart rate
variability, their positiveeffect state.
That was a survey, as Imentioned, and ran the numbers.
And here are the results.
So when they crunched all thenumbers, here's what happened in
the horse group.
Forced touch humans had a higherheart rate and a lower
(15:15):
variability.
So these findings indicategenerally greater physiological
arousal and stress during thoseforced interactions.
SPEAKER_01 (15:25):
Interestingly, looking more at the horse and
the participants, if there wasprevious horse experience, the
survey or the researchers lookedat the how does that influence
the participant?
And what they found is thatprevious horse experience or the
level of experience with horsesdid not affect the human heart
(15:46):
rate, and it did not affect thehuman HRV, the variability in
their heart rate.
But having experience withhorses did influence the
emotional responses.
The more experiencedparticipants felt less
activated.
SPEAKER_00 (16:08):
Yeah, horses are big though.
Like they're huge.
But they if you've never beenaround a horse before, just you
know, having more experiencemight give you a leg up.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (16:18):
I've been around horses.
We've raised horses, we've hadhorses on the farm, and they
mirror what you're feeling.
So they're a really goodindicator, and there is a whole
field of study into equinetherapy.
And the a friend of mine that wewent through our master's
together, that was her project,and she looked at equine
(16:38):
therapy, and she actually is ona farm and has horses, and she
was able to bring them into theschool, which was super awesome
and amazing.
I think they brought the kids toher farm.
SPEAKER_00 (16:47):
Yeah, she didn't take the horse.
Yeah, no, to take a horse into aschool.
Yeah, no, they I mean, what isthis like 1910 in the your it's
my grandpa's story, riding hishorse to school?
SPEAKER_01 (16:57):
No, but like the children were able to interact
with uh well-trained horse at afacility.
SPEAKER_00 (17:03):
Yeah, that's cool.
Now moving over to the dogresults, the touch condition had
no significant effect.
So whether it was forced orconsensual, yeah, whether it was
forced or consensual.
So having the dog somewhatrestrained didn't affect the
heart rate variability or theiremotional score, or letting the
dog find a person didn't affectit either.
(17:24):
So there was no difference.
And the conclusion is that theparticipants probably perceive
the dog interactions morepositively than horse
interactions, maybe because likerestraining a dog just means
they're on a leash versus not.
Conclusions of the studyprobably lead towards allowing
(17:46):
animals a choice to engage,especially if they're horses.
It improves the emotionalexperience and it reduces
psychological arousal.
But with dogs, there doesn'tseem to be any difference.
The effects of the forcedinteraction was a lot stronger
for horses.
SPEAKER_01 (18:03):
So, of course, when you complete a study, you get
some answers potentially, butthen you're also left with more
questions.
So there are some implicationsfor further research, maybe to
explore why dogs and horseselicit different human responses
and investigating a long-termeffect of consensual versus
(18:26):
forced interactions.
And then also the last one couldbe examining animal welfare
outcomes along with the humanbenefits.
Because I know that when I'mwalking around with our new
little cat, Bricks, when he iscuddled in my arms, I love it.
When he's trying to be get awaybecause he feels restrained, I
(18:46):
don't love it.
And I just want him to cuddle inmy arms every day, all day.
SPEAKER_00 (18:52):
Yeah, Bricks is way better than ginger.
If you pick up ginger and shedoesn't want to be picked up,
she just goes, No, like shestarts meowing right away that
she does not like what'shappening at all.
SPEAKER_01 (19:03):
But Brixy, he's oh okay, you can pick me up and you
can carry me around and I'llpurr.
And then I see that there's atreat, so bye.
He's very opportunistic.
SPEAKER_00 (19:14):
Yeah, but he's mostly cuddly.
He's mostly cuddly.
He does get squirmy, but not hedoesn't protest as Ginger does.
Maybe they need to do a cat onefor this forced cat.
How do you force a cat to go seesomebody?
Forced cat interaction versusthe cat chooses you.
Man, if a cat chooses you, I betyou everything is the best
(19:35):
because you've been blessed.
SPEAKER_01 (19:36):
The best.
SPEAKER_00 (19:37):
You've been blessed if a cat chooses you.
Like a cat in a room with 20people and the cat chooses a
person, go out and buy a lotteryticket.
SPEAKER_01 (19:45):
Or go get some allergy medication.
Because they usually pick thepeople who are allergic.
SPEAKER_00 (19:51):
All right, that's pet science for this week.
It's time for Ask an Expert onthe Science Podcast, and I have
Dr.
Shazma Manthani with us today.
Who is an ER doc?
How are you doing today?
SPEAKER_02 (20:03):
I'm doing great, Jason.
How are you today?
SPEAKER_00 (20:06):
I'm good.
I introduced you as a doc.
And where are you in the world?
Where are you calling into theshow from?
SPEAKER_02 (20:12):
So I'm in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
And I'm an emergency doctor.
Yeah, I work in the ER.
SPEAKER_00 (20:19):
Sweet.
That is a job that is many timesdramatized on TV.
Did you always want to be an ERdoc when you were little?
Like work as a doctor or work inthe fast-paced area you are now?
SPEAKER_02 (20:34):
No, I didn't really realize I wanted to be a doctor
until late in high school, orcertainly that's when it started
to when I started to think aboutit more seriously because of how
much I liked chemistry andbiology.
So as a chemistry teacher, I'msure you like to hear that.
But didn't so much like physics,but like definitely liked
chemistry and biology and didpharmacology in undergrad.
(20:55):
So lots and lots of chemistry inthat and biochemistry.
And then just felt like medicinewas a good applied way to use
those sciences with humaninteraction, which I love.
I love people and I love beingaround people.
And so that's in grade 12 intoundergrad is when I started
really thinking about it moreseriously.
SPEAKER_00 (21:14):
And to be where you are, just for folks that maybe
are wanting to know more aboutthat path or interested in
themselves.
What is your training to be anER doc?
I'd imagine it's similar inNorth America, like south of us
to the States, but just inCanada, for example.
SPEAKER_02 (21:32):
Yeah.
So in Canada, I did my undergradfirst.
So that's four years.
And then it was four years ofmedical school after that.
Some places, there are a coupleof places in Canada have that
have three-year medical schoolswhere they don't have summers.
I did four years of medicalschool and then I did five years
of residency to specialize inbecoming an emergency doctor.
(21:53):
So yeah, I guess do the math onthat.
So that's a lot of years.
SPEAKER_00 (21:57):
That's a long tall.
Yeah.
I have been in the ER a fewtimes myself.
So I've made use of theemergency room.
I've talked to a few ER doctors.
And in your bio, you saidsomething there's something
really powerful on your socialmedia.
And I think it's also on yourwebsite.
You want, and hopefully you cancorrect me if I'm wrong, but
(22:19):
this is what I think I'm quotingit.
You want to empower us all withthe tools to stay out of the ER.
I was thinking about that, and Iwas like, the you have a
profession, perhaps, that thebest day ever would be when
there's nobody coming in to seeyou.
Is am I on the right track?
SPEAKER_02 (22:40):
Yeah, I mean, there's so many things in the
emergency room and just medicinein general that are entirely
preventable.
And for me, living in Canada, wehave a publicly funded
healthcare system that is, tome, like such a part of part of
our identity as Canadians andsuch an important part of being
a doctor here is that it isaccessible to people no matter
(23:03):
what your ability to pay is.
And that is a valuable part ofour Canadian identity.
And the the reason that I gotinto this space on social media
was coming out of the COVID-19pandemic, we still had very
overloaded emergency departmentswhere people were coming in,
they didn't have family doctorsor access to primary and
preventative care.
And we're coming into the ERbecause they didn't know where
(23:23):
else to go.
But a lot of these things eitherare A, preventable or B, could
be managed at home or at awalk-in clinic or at an urgent
care rather than coming to theEMERGE.
And so my end goal was that if Ican keep people out of the
eMERGE that don't need to bethere, then the eMERGE is there
for the people that truly needit.
(23:44):
Yeah.
And so that's why I starteddoing these educational videos
and I have a podcast myself nowwith my friend and co-host.
And so just to try to againinform people and arm them,
empower them with information sothat they can take control of
their own health and understandwhat the like how important
preventative health is as well.
Because the idea is if we cankeep people healthy, help them
(24:08):
have the information to managethings at home, then we keep
them out of the hospital.
And that's better for everybody.
SPEAKER_00 (24:15):
Yeah, exactly.
Can you plug your what's yourpodcast?
Just so you mentioned it and Idon't want to like swing back
and forget.
SPEAKER_02 (24:22):
Yeah, so the podcast is called the Doc Talk Podcast.
My co-host, Sheila Wajayasinga,is a family doctor with a focus
on women's health who's inToronto.
Um, and then I do Emerge.
And so between the two of us, wehave a lot of quite a breadth of
knowledge in the medicine space.
And so we talk about all sortsof topics with the intended
audience not being doctors, butbeing the general public to help
(24:44):
demystify health a little bit.
SPEAKER_00 (24:46):
I love that.
That's cool.
Okay, we will have a link toyour podcast in our show notes,
everybody.
So you can click on that and notwhen you're driving.
So if you're one of those peoplethat listen to a podcast and
drive, I'd imagine that's oneway you're gonna wind up in the
ER.
We don't want that.
SPEAKER_02 (25:00):
Um no, don't want that.
SPEAKER_00 (25:02):
But I but just piggybacking back to things we
could do to keep us out of theER.
Can we talk about that a littlebit?
What are some ways, what aresome things you see that are
preventable that that doe headslike me might get ourselves
into?
SPEAKER_02 (25:19):
Yeah, so lots of so many injuries in particular are
preventable.
So the first thing thatimmediately comes to mind is
wearing helmets.
So a lot of people think ofhelmets as just related to
bicycles, or even don't wearthem with bicycles, but that is
so much broader than that.
For me, what I always say islike anything that is a wheeled
(25:39):
device that you can go fasterthan walking on, you should be
wearing a helmet.
So a scooter, a skateboard,rollerblades, or roller skates.
Yes, a bicycle as well.
Things like other things thatpeople don't think of.
Snow sports, so skiing,snowboarding, sledding as well.
Helmets really important becauseI've seen a lot of head injuries
in those situations too.
(26:01):
Equestrian sports.
Like there are so many thingsthat helmets are useful for to
protect the one brain that youhave.
And like injuries are a bigthing.
And then of using substances,right?
So yes, if you want to usesubstances, use them.
But use them, yeah, use themsafely.
So whether you know it's alcoholor cannabis or other substances,
(26:21):
humans are going to usesubstances that is part of our
beings, but use themresponsibly.
Don't operate heavy machinery,don't use alone.
So just having more parametersor boundaries in place when
you're using substances, that'sanother big one.
And then even broader than thatis like things as simple as
being able to have things likeyour blood pressure and your
(26:41):
cholesterol under control,because these are things down
the road, if they're notcontrolled, your diabetes as
well, that lead to things likestrokes and heart attacks.
And those again are like overthe long term preventable.
So not so acute like in injuriesor substances, but those are
things where visits to the ERdown the road can certainly be
prevented by having that part ofyour health under control, too.
SPEAKER_00 (27:03):
I've got a quick question for you, just about
something you mentioned, becauseI covered it on the podcast, my
podcast like a year ago.
There, have you seen anexplosion in injuries from the
e-scooters that are everywhere?
Because have you seen thatreflect itself in your ER?
SPEAKER_02 (27:18):
Yes, absolutely.
I've made so many videos aboute-scooters telling people not to
use e-scooters.
I don't think that we should,this is probably an unpopular
opinion.
They are they are quitedangerous.
I've seen quite significantinjuries between my colleagues
and I with e-scooters, likedevastating head injuries that
have ended people up in theintensive care unit, broken
bones that require surgery,severe concussions, rib
(27:43):
fractures, like so manydifferent injuries from
e-scooters.
These things get going reallyfast.
And when people are using them,they're often intoxicated, or in
a busy space with lots of othervehicles around them, whether it
be a bicycle or cars aroundthem.
And so that makes and often notwearing a helmet.
So that makes these particularlyunsafe.
(28:03):
A lot of people ask me why Ikind of harp on e-scooters
instead of bicycles, and a lotof that actually just has to do
with the data.
So when we look at the data,e-scooters actually do
proportionally like more peopleride bikes.
So, of course, as an absolutenumber, injuries related to
bikes are going to be higher.
But when you look at it on aquote unquote per capita or on a
per use basis, e-scootersactually lead to more injuries.
(28:24):
There is some good data to showthat.
So that's why I don't likee-scooters.
I see a lot of injuries withthem.
SPEAKER_00 (28:29):
I think that I saw that there was a study we looked
at last year, too.
And you can correct me if I'mwrong, but what I seem to
remember was the per capitainjury is higher, but the chance
of a catastrophic injury is alsohigher.
Something that is way like bigwould require, I'm not sure the
exact parameters of a severeinjury, but more severe
(28:52):
injuries, or even I think thestudy called them catastrophic
injuries.
SPEAKER_02 (28:56):
Yep, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (28:58):
I'm just glad those little hoverboard things didn't
catch on.
SPEAKER_02 (29:01):
Did oh my yeah, those I do know those look scary
too.
Like they're even moreunbalanced looking than these
e-scooters.
SPEAKER_00 (29:10):
Our school, if you can believe it, years ago when
they were so popular, theybought six of them.
Six of these hoverboards, andthe administrators were zipping
around on them because just likethis cool thing.
And I think somebody crashed andreally hurt themselves, and then
that was the end of the end ofthose hoverboards.
(29:30):
Little hoverboards, right?
You're probably not wearing ahelmet when you're on a
hoverboard inside of schoolzipping around, anyways.
SPEAKER_02 (29:37):
That's a good point.
Probably not.
SPEAKER_00 (29:39):
You mentioned cholesterol and high blood
pressure.
When should people get thatchecked?
If you go through life andunless you are in a position
where your blood is checked,like when do you go?
Because uh you have to have yourblood taken for at least
cholesterol levels.
When is that?
SPEAKER_02 (30:00):
Yeah, and so I think the the most important thing for
people to know from that is tosee their doctor regularly for
checkups.
So it's not necessarily everyyear, right?
So there are lots ofjurisdictions now that are
saying see your doctor every twoyears, especially if you're
otherwise healthy.
But when you go to see yourdoctor, that's when they'll
check your blood pressure.
That's when they'll do bloodtests depending on what your
(30:21):
risks are and what your age is,because there are lots of
different factors that go intohow early to start testing.
So if you're someone that, forexample, has a family history of
high cholesterol or has a familyhistory of heart disease,
stroke, high blood pressure,your family doctor will start
testing you earlier for thosethings.
If you're someone that is inlike a zero risk category,
they'll likely start testing youlater for those things.
(30:43):
But that is where primary carewith your family doctor or nurse
practitioner comes in becausethey're checking those things
regularly so that they can pickthose abnormal numbers up and
then treat you when you need tobe treated.
SPEAKER_00 (30:56):
Okay, cool.
All right.
I do need to make an appointmentwith our I think we are family
doctor retired, so we have a newfamily doctor, but I do need to
make an appointment with ourdoctor.
So that's a good reminder formyself.
SPEAKER_02 (31:09):
Yeah, and high blood pressure, high cholesterol, but
other sorts of regularlyscreened things.
So lots of cancers requirescreening at different ages.
And so seeing your family doctorregularly so that they can let
you know, hey, you're 50, so youshould start getting colon
cancer screening, for example.
Or you're a woman in between theages of 40 and 50, depending on
(31:30):
where you are.
This is a good time to startgetting breast cancer screening.
So these are other importantthings that your family doctor
can have these conversationswith you about as you get older
and as you age into thosethings.
SPEAKER_00 (31:41):
Gotcha.
Okay, cool.
Pro tip, everybody, make sureyou're seeing your family doctor
if you can.
SPEAKER_02 (31:48):
Yes, absolutely.
Another important thing is likea lot of people don't have
family doctors right now.
So the latest Kai Hi data saysthat over six million Canadians
are without a family doctor,probably similar proportions in
the US.
And that so if you don't have afamily doctor, even just finding
a walk-in clinic, the same onethat you go to regularly, or
(32:09):
finding a clinic that has afamily medicine clinic that has
doctors and also nursepractitioners that does
practices teen-based care.
There are other ways to get careif you don't have a specific
family doctor.
So important to mention thattoo.
SPEAKER_00 (32:21):
Good point.
Yeah, I was thinking about thatbecause we we struggled finding
another doctor when our awesomeguy retired.
So yeah, I can imagine otherCanadians are struggling too.
But that's you can always youmight have to wait, depending on
how busy the walk-in is, butthat's a solution, obviously.
In the past, you had uh kind oflike a regular radio column for
(32:43):
CBC in your uh freelancer nowwith both them and the Globe and
Mail.
I was wondering if you couldtalk to us a little bit about
that.
That's cool.
SPEAKER_02 (32:51):
Yeah, so the CBC thing is actually something that
started as a video column duringthe pandemic, where I was doing
similar things to what I'm doingon my social media channels,
which is just picking a specifichealth topic and having a short
little video.
So I was making these videos athome by myself because it was
like right in the thick of thepandemic.
And so it was great.
Like it was we the producers andI would find a topic together.
(33:13):
So it ranged from things likenosebleeds to like poor air
quality to gastrointestinalillness to just whatever topic
kind of seems topical at thattime.
And then as things evolved, weactually moved to a weekly radio
column with CBC Edmonton.
And so similarly, I would gointo studio every Wednesday
afternoon and talk aboutwhatever thing was topical.
(33:36):
In the fall, we talked aboutinfluenza and COVID, talked
about injuries, talked aboute-scooters as well.
So lots of different topics.
And then now that's I go back toCBC depending on whether there's
a need for it.
And then I've started recentlydoing some freelance writing
with the Globe and Mail as well.
My first uh first column waslast month, and that was on five
(33:59):
things to keep you out of theemergency department.
And then more recently, justlast week, I had a column uh
talking about air quality andwildfires and how that kind of
affects health.
That's been a fun thing just tonot only use my voice and video
skills, but to be able to use mywriting skills too.
SPEAKER_00 (34:14):
Nice.
That is a perfect segue into thewildfire smoke thing.
SPEAKER_02 (34:21):
It's been it was it's been bad as well.
And he had soccer canceled forthe kids.
I was canceling outdoor runs,and yeah, it wasn't great.
SPEAKER_00 (34:29):
I don't remember wildfire smoke being as
oppressive as it has been in thelast five, six years.
Is my question, I guess, to you,as somebody who's who wrote
about this and knows more thanme, is the smoke like, is it
just annoying or is it truly badfor us?
Like it's something we need tobe concerned about.
SPEAKER_02 (34:51):
I would say the latter.
And Jason, I guess to your pointearlier, yes, it is getting
worse.
I grew up in Alberta, so I knowwhat the summers have been like.
In my memory, and like the 40years of my life, I the summers
are getting hotter and they'regetting smokier.
And in particular, I recall Iwhen I was pregnant with my
second child in 2018, the summerof 2018, that was it was it
(35:13):
happened to be a smoky summer,and it was the first time I
remember like having to chooseto stay indoors because of how
bad the smoke was.
So that was six years ago.
And then actually, so there isdata that showed that the 2023
wildfire season, so not lastsummer, but the summer before,
was actually Canada's worstwildfire season on record.
(35:35):
And unfortunately, the 2025season is thought to be starting
out at a similarly intenselevel.
So, yes, it is getting worse,and it's not just yes, it's
annoying, but it's alsoconcerning from a health
standpoint.
So, both in the short term andthe long term, there are
well-documented negative effectson health due to air pollution
(35:59):
secondary to wildfire smoke.
SPEAKER_00 (36:02):
Is it the particulates in the air, like
all of the crap that is comingfrom the fires?
And then you breathe that in thecity.
SPEAKER_02 (36:08):
That's exactly it.
SPEAKER_00 (36:09):
Some kind of carcinogen, some kind of do we
know the mechanism as to whyit's bad, or just it's really
not something humans shouldbreathe in.
So it that's why it's bad.
I don't know what yeah, so it'sa few things.
SPEAKER_02 (36:22):
And so air pollution is essentially like measuring
suspended particles in the air.
So whether that's fromwildfires, whether that's from
fossil fuel combustion orvehicle emissions, right?
Though those are like there arethese small suspended particles
in the air that then stay there.
And so depending on what theconcentration of those particles
is, that gives us an air qualityhealth index.
(36:44):
And so a lower number is lowpollution or low, low
particulate matter in the air,and then a higher number, so one
is the lowest, and then 10 plusis the highest.
So a higher number means a muchhigher density of these
particles suspended in the air.
And what ends up happening isyes, you breathe them in, and so
they have a direct impact onyour lung tissue acutely in that
(37:05):
moment, but then they canactually also be absorbed into
your blood.
They can cause inflammation inyour body as well.
And although the exact kind ofmechanism isn't known, there is
this element of chronicinflammation and then can lead
to chronic lung disease andreduced function.
We know that there are alsonon-lung effects of air
pollution as well.
(37:25):
So it can affect your heart, itcan affect your brain, it can
affect your blood vessels aswell, and it can certainly
affect your cancer risk.
And this can happen over thelong term.
So not just that you go outsideand it's smoky and you feel like
you're coughing or it mighttrigger an asthma attack or that
sort of thing.
There is data from actually thegovernment of Canada, from
(37:46):
Health Canada, that looked atprolonged exposure over a
lifetime of just air pollutionin general.
And people that had more kind ofpollution-filled days that they
were exposed to actually endedup having a lower life
expectancy for multiplemultitude of reasons, but it has
an effect beyond just beingannoying and affecting the
lungs.
It actually can affect longevityand can lead to chronic
(38:09):
illnesses too.
SPEAKER_00 (38:10):
Yeah, I'm sure it's also reflect that seems like
it's reflected in other studiesI've looked at, like folks who
live around a coal-burningplant, right?
The life expectancies of thefolks that live around that area
uh is less.
It's statistical.
Yeah.
I'm just trying to I'll cutthis, but I'm just trying to
look back in time to see whatthe air quality index was in
(38:34):
Calgary last week, but I thinkit was like the high risk, like
there's five of them orsomething.
SPEAKER_02 (38:40):
Um yeah, so we had like multiple 10 plus days.
So like the high, like if youlook at the air quality health
index, like the AQHI, which iswhat Environment Canada uses,
the highest you can go is 10plus.
Once there's like a certainthreshold that's reached, they
basically stop measuring becauseit's all bad above that.
And so we had, yeah, multipledays of seven, eight, and then
10 plus as well in Edmonton.
SPEAKER_00 (39:02):
It went up to 10.
Fans of Spinal Tap would behappy if they had an 11, right?
So love turn it up to 11.
After 10, it's just crazy bad.
Like they just don't, they justhave no adjectives to describe
it further.
That's pretty much it's justbad, bad.
SPEAKER_02 (39:18):
And that's the level.
So there's three categories ofpoor air quality.
So there's kind of one to three,which is low risk.
And so that's where, like ingeneral, it's okay to be
outside.
Like it's safe for the generalpopulation and even at risk
populations to be outside.
When we're at like the moderaterange of four to six, that's
where if you're in a low riskgroup, yes, it's still okay to
(39:40):
be outside.
Just be mindful of yoursymptoms.
But if you're in a high riskgroup, like if you have
underlying heart issues or lungissues, then that's when it's
recommended for those people tostay indoors.
Once you get to seven to 10plus, that's when actually like
everyone, no matter what yourrisk category is, even if you're
a low risk person, should reallyjust not spend time outside
because it's risky for everybodythen at that point.
(40:00):
Point.
SPEAKER_00 (40:00):
What I I uh okay, let's say you had to go outside,
right?
Like, what can you do?
Do you wear one of those M95masks?
Do you like yes?
You hold your breath?
So that's okay.
All right.
SPEAKER_02 (40:13):
Run to the garage and get in the car.
Yeah, no, so that's a goodquestion.
So if they're if you have to beoutside, try to limit the amount
of time that you are outside.
And when you are outside, whenyou're in that if we're at the
high risk, the high riskcategory of air pollution, or
you're in a risk group and it'slike moderate or higher, then
wearing a well-fitted N95respirator mask, so not a
(40:34):
surgical mask, like not thoseblue masks, but the ones that
are like N95 respirators thatseal well around your nose and
your face and your chin, becausethose are like the N95 category
is a filtration level that'senough to prevent those
particles or as many of thoseparticles as needed to get
through and into your lungs.
(40:54):
So if you have to be outside,then wearing a respirator is
going to be important to protectyour body.
SPEAKER_00 (41:02):
And I have one more question, and it's cropped up on
social media.
Maybe you've come across thisand no, I don't know.
But there there are someconcerns that our homes aren't
super safe when it's so smokyoutside, especially if you have
air conditioning units that aresucking air into your house.
Air's gonna get into your houseanyways if it's hot and you have
(41:25):
your windows open.
Is that a concern?
SPEAKER_02 (41:27):
Yes, it is.
And so that's a really goodquestion as well.
If you have an air conditionerthat's like a built-in air
conditioner in your home, andyou have then a HEPA system in
your home, like having theappropriate level of filtration.
So there's like MERV, which isit's called MERV.
So like either 11 or 13 are likethe two levels of MERV filters
(41:50):
that are are enough to filterout the air pollution particles
from the air that's being drawninto the home.
If you don't have an airconditioner or you need to have
the windows open or that sort ofthing, then just having a
portable air purifier and filteris helpful as well.
So Health Canada actually has alist of kind of the criteria or
(42:11):
the specifications that youshould look for in air purifiers
when you're looking at airpurifiers for your home or
filters for your kind of furnacein HEPA or HRB, I should say,
not HEPPA, your HRB system.
So if you go to Health Canadaand just like Google or like
search air purifiers HealthCanada, there's an entire list
of specifications and someexamples of ones that are that
they recommend as well.
SPEAKER_00 (42:31):
Oh, sweet.
Okay, that's cool.
Yeah, it was just something I'vebeen seeing crop up on social
media.
I don't know the scienceaccounts off the top of my head
that maybe have been mentioningit, but that's something they
were mentioning.
And I was like, oh, geez, that'snot so good.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (42:46):
So it's and that's an important thing to keep in
mind as well, especially whenit's like multiple days of poor
air quality, making sure thatyou have a way to filter the air
that's entering your home orcontinuing to filter the air
that is circulating in your homeas well.
SPEAKER_00 (43:01):
Moving away from wildfire smoke to something that
is now spreading like awildfire, and that's measles.
Are we have a lot of Americanswho listen to our show, and they
might be shocked to know thatAlberta, we have a huge measles
outbreak, like bad for ourpopulation size.
I don't know if you have anyfeedback for us on that or
(43:21):
things we can watch out for.
SPEAKER_02 (43:23):
Yeah, so this is something that, to be honest,
only felt like it was going tobe a matter of time before we
had a measles outbreak, andthat's simply because measles is
so exquisitely contagious.
It's actually one of the mostcontagious pathogens known to
humans.
It is, yeah, it's spread throughthe air, so airborne.
And the challenging thing aboutmeasles is not only is it spread
(43:46):
in the air, it actually hangsaround in the air for a few
hours after the infected personhas left it, which makes it,
that's what makes it socontagious.
Because it's not just being inthe same room or the same space
as someone who has measles andbreathing in their air.
Even once that person leavesthat space, that the measles
continues to float around in theair for two to three hours
afterwards.
(44:06):
And just like then entering thatspace, like going to a grocery
store or going to an airport orgoing to a library, like all of
those things are potential riskif there's someone that's walked
through there with measles andmaybe was early in their illness
and didn't quite have all thesymptoms yet and didn't weren't
isolating yet.
And so that's why measles hasspread like wildfire, like you
(44:28):
said, because it's so incrediblycontagious.
We've also seen, unfortunately,a steady decline in vaccination
rates with the MMR vaccine,which again is part of why we
are starting to see a resurgenceof cases again.
When you have a disease that'sas contagious as measles, you
actually need a high level ofvaccination to reach herd
immunity, which is the amount ofvaccines that like the general
(44:52):
population needs to preventmeasles from coming into that
population.
And so for measles, because it'sso contagious, that number is
95%.
So 95% of people have to bevaccinated in order to have herd
immunity, which is a high levelof vaccination.
But I'll remind your listenersthat actually like back in 1998,
Canada was considered eradicatedof measles because we did have
(45:13):
such a good vaccination rate.
I know.
And it's and it is frustrating.
It's frustrating as like ascience educator, it's
frustrating as a physician.
And the challenging part for meis like I don't blame
individuals for not gettingvaccinated.
What I blame is the blatant misand disinformation that is out
there on social media and alsolike people in the public eye
(45:37):
who sow this mistrust invaccines that is unfounded.
And so when people are hearingall of these things from so many
different directions and theirfavorite social media influencer
is questioning whether we needan MMR vaccine, uh of course
they're gonna have hesitancy.
That of course that's going tohappen.
And so, yeah, that that's whereI put the blame.
I put the blame on the peoplewho have platforms and people
(46:01):
like RFK Jr.
that are worsening vaccinehesitancy, getting us in a
situation like this.
SPEAKER_00 (46:08):
Yeah, it's quite the situation.
SPEAKER_02 (46:10):
Ontario has a big outbreak right now as well.
I think we actually have more ona per capita basis.
Yeah, exactly.
So we actually have more on aper capita basis now.
And we are seeing severecomplications from this.
And the problem, one of theother problems is because we
have grown up at a time where wedidn't have to worry about
measles, our memories are short.
(46:31):
We don't actually know peoplewho have had bad outcomes for
measles because we all had ourvaccines when we were little,
yeah, and then haven't seen whatthe consequences of measles are.
And so these are things like youcan get severe lung swelling
that you need to have beyond aventilator for.
You can get severe brainswelling leading to permanent
brain damage, you can get severeimmune suppression that like
(46:52):
happens, like where you'reimmunocompromised and for the
rest of your life.
You can die from this.
We've seen, unfortunately, casesin the US and now in Canada as
well, where young babies havedied from this.
Yeah.
And this is not a this is not abenign disease.
And you don't see people dyingor having complications when
they've been vaccinated.
The vaccine is extremelyeffective.
(47:12):
Two doses of the R vaccine areover 97% effective at preventing
measles.
And if you are in that unlucky3%, then you're going to have
very mild disease.
So this is like a life-savingand complication reducing and
avoiding vaccine that is safeand effective.
And unfortunately, there's beena lot of mis and disinformation
(47:34):
that has really increased thevaccine hesitancy out there.
The other thing that's reallyconcerning is that like young
babies can't get this vaccine.
The youngest age that you couldget the measles vaccine is at
six months.
So that would be an early dose.
The routine vaccination schedulesays 12 months and then 18
months or older.
So you need two doses.
And now with outbreaks, thatlike public health is
(47:57):
recommending that you can getthe vaccine.
And this is not a newrecommendation.
This has been around for decadeswhere when there are outbreaks,
you can offer the vaccine asearly as six months, and then
you still do get your tworoutine vaccinations after that.
But any babies that are youngerthan six months are fully
exposed.
Like they're exposed whenthey're going out and about
because we don't have that levelof population herd immunity that
(48:19):
we need to protect thevulnerable people in our
population.
SPEAKER_00 (48:23):
That's it would be a scary time to be a new parent.
SPEAKER_02 (48:26):
I can't even imagine if my baby if my kids were young
right now, I feel like I wouldjust like not want to leave the
house, which is not the it's notthe right thing to do.
I know that, but it would beit's so anxiety.
It would be so anxiety provokingfor me.
SPEAKER_00 (48:38):
Yeah.
Especially if you're in theoutbreak zones like southern
Alberta.
Yes.
I wouldn't be taking my baby tothe co-op in some communities in
southern Alberta where all theoutbreaks are.
SPEAKER_02 (48:48):
I was talking to my or like in Texas or New Mexico
in the US, those are highoutbreak areas down there.
SPEAKER_00 (48:53):
As I told you, I teach high school chemistry, and
I will stop my lesson at thestart if there's like pernient
science news.
And I talked about measles.
I'm like when I was in highschool, measles was like this
myth.
Measles was a disease you readabout in historical fiction, or
like you we'd read about it andsay, Oh, they got the measles or
(49:15):
the Mies, and they're what'soutside, and oh, let's read
about this from happeninghundreds of years ago.
And then I went through like thehistoric cases in Alberta, and
it was like zero, zero, zero,two, zero.
Oh, that was a bad year.
There was like 12 dudes who gotit.
SPEAKER_02 (49:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (49:30):
And then now it was like, of course, I did this a
month ago and it was like 500.
And I said, You'll see athousand, you'll see a thousand
by exam break, maybe more, andit's only gonna go up because of
the contagiousness of it.
SPEAKER_02 (49:44):
It's a historic, it has been a historical disease in
med school too.
Like when we I remember when Iwas in med school and residency
learning about measles, we sawthe pictures of the rash, but
it's like not a rash that we'veseen had seen in real life.
Because it, like you said, likethe case it was eradicated,
officially eradicated fromCanada in '98.
(50:04):
And I went to med school farlater than that.
And yeah, we just haven't seenit until now.
SPEAKER_00 (50:10):
It's just wild.
Maybe to put a positive spin onthis is what can we do?
This is not we're perhapsunlucky in Alberta where it's so
high.
I would imagine the vaccinationrates are falling because of
misinformation, disinformationeverywhere.
And it's just the as you said,it's a matter of time.
What do you have some advice forfolks who are listening to the
(50:33):
show?
What can we do to help you guysin the ER and in med and in
medicine?
SPEAKER_02 (50:38):
If you don't have two doses of your MMR vaccine,
please get them.
If you are, if you havequestions or you're worried and
just want some more informationabout the vaccine, go to a
trusted source.
So don't go to social mediabecause there's a lot of miss
and disinformation out there.
Talk to your doctor, talk toyour pharmacist, talk to your
nurse practitioner, talk to yourlocal public health office and
(51:00):
the registered nurses that arethere.
Go to the Health Canada website.
That's a reliable source ofinformation.
And just learn about it and findopportunities to ask questions
to credentialed health careworkers so that we can help
offer you the information thatyou need to hopefully reduce
your hesitancy and talk youthrough it.
(51:21):
Because it is a safe andeffective vaccine.
It does not cause autism thatthat has been debunked time and
time again.
There have been multiple studiesthat have shown that there is no
association.
And it is a safe and effectiveand life-saving vaccine.
So whatever you need to do toget there, please seek out
reliable and credibleinformation to get the
information that you need.
SPEAKER_00 (51:43):
And speaking of reliable and credible
information, we'll have a linkto your Instagram account in our
show notes.
SPEAKER_02 (51:49):
Love it.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (51:51):
All right.
Thanks for that.
I know it's a I am frustrated,but I can't imagine how
frustrated you folks who areworking in medicine are.
So I do appreciate you giving usa little measles talk there.
It's been a so price of mine.
My grandmother got polio theyear the vaccine became widely
available.
So it's like a huge vaccinationis a huge deal for my family.
SPEAKER_02 (52:14):
Yeah, bad.
SPEAKER_00 (52:18):
A whole bunch of stuff from post.
SPEAKER_02 (52:20):
And that's just it, right?
Because there are all of thesevaccine preventable illnesses
that we're so lucky to havevaccines for that we've
eradicated, but they wereeradicated so long ago that we
don't remember how bad theywere.
SPEAKER_00 (52:32):
No.
I tell my students, like, do youremember when there was no
internet?
And they're like, no.
I'm like, exactly.
That's what we're talking about.
SPEAKER_02 (52:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (52:41):
One of the standard questions we ask all of our
guests is a pet story from theirlife to tie the science with the
humanity and the love ofanimals.
And I was wondering if you havea pet story you could share with
us.
SPEAKER_02 (52:54):
Yeah, so I have I didn't actually grow up with
pets, but when I married myhusband, he was someone that
grew up with dogs.
And so our first baby was ayellow lab named Zoe.
She has left us since then, andnow we have a chocolate lab
named Dobby.
So Zoe, so she was our firstbaby.
We loved her so much.
And one of the things that sheloved to do, so she thankfully
(53:18):
being a lab, she wasn't adestroyer of things.
Like she didn't chew things orwreck.
She only wrecked one shoe ofmine ever in the 12 years that
she lived.
She loved being around our socksfor some reason.
And so there, what we wouldoften do is like my husband and
I, we'd go home.
She'd be roaming around thehouse.
And she often just liked toeither stay in her crate or in
on our bed in our bedroom.
(53:39):
And she would actually go intoour hamper and hit hand pick out
or like mouth pick out just thesocks.
Like through all of the otherthings, she would fish out the
socks and then bring them uponto the bed and just like nest
herself around our socks.
And like we would just comehome, go upstairs, find Zoe, and
she'd just be like laying therein her curled up little ball
(54:01):
with just like socks right byher nose.
And I think it's just becauseshe missed us and she went to
smell us.
But the funny part of it is likeshe would ignore all of the
other clothes and just like thesocks.
There was something with thesocks that she would just pick
those out and just bring thoseonto the bed.
Yeah, she just, I don't know,the socks.
She loved the socks.
(54:21):
So I that was a commonoccurrence when we came home and
found her just laying on ourbed.
SPEAKER_00 (54:26):
Aw.
Yes, our first goal, then shewas a destroyer of things, I'm
for sure.
Bernoulli.
SPEAKER_02 (54:34):
Is definitely a destroyer, more of a destroyer
of things for sure.
SPEAKER_00 (54:38):
Bunsen and Beaker aren't, but our new guy,
Bernoulli, he is mischievous.
He will wreck things.
He ate half a boot the otherday.
I couldn't believe it.
Half the root.
SPEAKER_02 (54:48):
Oh wow, that's committed.
SPEAKER_00 (54:50):
That is chaosly committed.
That is committed to the chaosto eat somebody's half.
All right.
Thank you so much for sharingyour pet story with us today.
SPEAKER_02 (54:58):
Yeah, you bet.
SPEAKER_00 (55:00):
I guess as we wrap up, I want to thank you so much
for coming on our show to chat alittle bit about ER, your ER
business to keep us out of thereand making room for folks that
really need it if we can beprevents being there in the
first place.
And wildfire smoke, and then ofcourse, measles.
Shazma, thank you so much forbeing our guest today.
SPEAKER_02 (55:18):
Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_00 (55:20):
That's it for this week's show.
Thanks for coming back weekafter week to listen to the
Science Podcast.
And a shout out to all the topdogs.
That's the top tier of ourPatreon community, The Popack.
You can sign up in our shownotes.
Alright, Chris, let's hear thosenames that are part of the Top
Dogs.
SPEAKER_01 (55:36):
Amelia Fetting, Re Oda, Carol Haino, Jennifer
Challenge, Linnea Janet, KarenCronister, Vicky Oteiro, Christy
Walker, Sarah Brown, Wendy,Diane, Mason and Luke, Helen
Chin, Elizabeth Bourgeois,Marianne McNally, Katherine
Jordan, Shelly Smith, LauraStephenson, Tracy Leinbaugh,
(55:59):
Anne Uchida, Heather Burbach,Kelly, Tracy Halbert, Ben
Rather, Debbie Anderson, SandyBrimer, Mary Rader, Bianca Hyde,
Andrew Lynn, Brenda Clark,Brianne Hawts, Peggy McKeel,
Holly Birch, Kathy Zirker, SusanWagner, and Liz Button.
SPEAKER_00 (56:18):
For science, empathy, and cuteness.
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