Through groundbreaking prosthetic hand technology and controversial genetic engineering, this episode explores where science meets the ethical boundaries of what we can versus what we should do.
• Revolutionary prosthetic hand from Johns Hopkins University combines rigid 3D-printed structures with soft polymers to mimic human capabilities
• New prosthetics send sensory feedback (temperature, texture, slippage) directly to users through electrical nerve stimulation
• "Woolly mice" genetically engineered with mammoth traits mark a controversial step toward de-extinction
• Critics question whether de-extinction resources might better serve conservation of endangered species
• Dr. Kevin Morgan shares Belfast's rich chemistry history and the science behind Irish spirits for St. Patrick's Day
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hello science enthusiasts.
I'm Jason Zukoski.
And I'm Chris Zukoski, we'rethe pet parents of Bunsen,
beaker, bernoulli and Ginger.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
The science animals on social media.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
If you love science.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
And you love pets.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
You've come to the right spot, so put on your
safety glasses and hold on toyour tail.
This is the Science Podcast.
Hello and welcome back to theScience Podcast.
We hope you're happy andhealthy out there.
This is episode five of seasonseven.
It's been good for my mentalhealth this week to do some
research for the Science Podcastand, of course, talk to some
(00:44):
amazing guests coming up fory'all to listen to over the next
couple months and then justhave time with chris to have
some fun back and forth um withyou know how the roller coaster
we are experiencing up here incanada at this time is um, not a
roller coaster is the dogs.
They're really steady.
Bunsen's maybe plateaued a bitthis week.
So if you're worried his health, it's not like he's gone
(01:06):
backwards, but unlike theprevious weeks where we've seen
some gains, he's kind ofplateaued a bit.
I'm not sure if that's good orbad.
Big breaking news, though, isBeaker went to with Bernoulli to
Waggle's puppy daycare and shehad a great day.
She's a COVID puppy and can bea little snippy with dogs
occasionally not all the time,but occasionally so we were a
(01:28):
little worried about that, butthe reports are she had tons of
fun and made some friends and wegot some photos of her smiling
and that made it so, so worth it.
It's good for her to get outwith some other dogs and burn
off some energy.
Okay, well, what's on thescience podcast?
This week In science news,chris and I break down a really
big advancement in prosthetichands.
That is almost sciencefiction-y.
(01:50):
Very cool and good news there.
And in animal science we breakdown the viral picture study
controversy around the woollymouse.
It was a lot of fun talkingabout it.
Little spooky, little spookyyep.
And our guest and ask an expertthis week is Dr Kevin Morgan.
St Patrick's Day is coming upand Dr Kevin is from Ireland.
(02:12):
A proud Irish chemist talks tous a little bit about the
history of chemistry in Irelandand celebrating St Patrick's Day
with a little bit of chemistry.
All right on with the show.
There's no time like sciencetime this week in science news.
I think we got to give sciencea hand for its developments here
(02:35):
, chris.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Ooh, very good.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
And, while the puns fit, the science that we're
looking at is actually quiteserious for folks that might
need it.
Now I'll start with I loverobotics.
I'm not a robotic programmer,but I guess I love the idea of
robotics and robots for as longas I could remember, and I have
been showing my class theprogression of these robots
(03:02):
built by Boston Dynamics.
Are you familiar with thoserobots, Chris?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Yeah, Flint is a Boston robotic dog at the Tellus
World of Science.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Yeah, that spot for the people that maybe are
following Boston Dynamics.
They have a four-legged robot,they have a two-legged robot and
they've got a couple giantrobots on wheels.
I think where it stems from forme, chris, is that it's a very
dated movie.
I watched Short Circuit like athousand times when I was young.
(03:35):
Do you remember Short Circuit?
Speaker 2 (03:38):
I do.
I'm not as familiar with it asyou are, because you said you
watched it so many times, johnnynumber five is alive and you
are yourself like a robot, whereyou're able to pull facts and
data as if by out of the air.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
You're amazing that way all right, we'll get to the
science news item, because it'sactually extremely cool.
Let's start with giving k newsitem, because it's actually
extremely cool.
Let's start with giving kudosto where it's from Engineers at
John Hopkins University.
They've developed a first ofits kind prosthetic hand that
can grip everyday objects withprecision.
(04:19):
That means it can adjust itsgrasp to prevent squishing or
mishandling.
And where previous prostheticsmaybe aren't as good, especially
the robotics, one is they wereeither way too rigid or soft,
meaning they would squash thingsor not be rigid enough to pick
(04:39):
up stuff.
And this system from JohnHopkins balances flexibility and
strength.
Now where this is coming inwith Boston Dynamics, as I show
the kids a video, what the robotdog thing Flint Spot.
It has an arm that can go onits back and it tried to pick up
a soda can or pop can and itgrabbed it and exploded all over
(05:00):
the guy it was supposed to handto.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
So anyways, so that's lacking both flexibility.
I guess it has the strength,but it doesn't have the.
It's too rigid.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Yeah, think about.
I guess.
Just think about stuff in youreveryday life that requires the
softest touch to pick up, and ifyou were like Rammy with it,
you would damage it.
Think of everything like eatinga sandwich even right, Like a
sandwich is soft bread and itcould fall apart.
Just the manual dexterity totouch things is quite lacking
(05:33):
with robotic systems.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
But this innovation is very promising because it can
potentially significantlyimprove the lives of individuals
that have upper limb loss andactually revolutionize how the
robotic arms interact with theirenvironment.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Chris, what is it made of?
Speaker 2 (05:55):
They have that hybrid design that you were talking
about, which combines rigid 3Dprinting internal structures.
I know I was thinking boy,jason's gonna really like that
part, because Jason's also anavid 3d printer person but it
combines the internal structurethat's 3d printed with soft
(06:15):
rubber like polymers whichreplicate human bone joints and
tissues, and it has a multifinger system system which
includes air-filled fingerjoints that actually can be
controlled using forearm musclesignals.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Now that's the wild part, chris.
If you have this arm, you flexthe same muscles in your forearm
, not one-to-one, but very close.
You control the hand to graband to grasp things as the
person I don't know.
It's crazy.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
That's wild.
And this prosthetic hand isinspired by human skin, and so
the hand actually has threelayers of sensors to detect and
differentiate between variousobject shapes and textures, and
so what that allows theprosthetic to do is like what
you were saying having a gentletouch when needed versus a more
(07:14):
firm grasp when it's warranted.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Right, and then continuing.
The cool part is there's awhole bunch of like machine
learning AI that's integratedinto it.
So from the fingers itprocesses that, those senses
that you just mentioned.
You know that's modeled afterhuman skin and it converts the
data into nerve like signals,sending it back to the person
with the hand for realisticsensory feedback through
(07:39):
electrical nerve simulation.
So they don't have folks who'vehad the hand with testimonial,
but the idea is like you grabsomething very soft like a
sponge, it sends the signal backto your arm and you feel the
hand grabbing the sponge and itsends, and then that artificial
hand sends touch signals to thebrain.
(08:01):
And also this is another wildpart it allows the user to sense
temperature, texture and if youare slipping with your grip, so
hot and cold objects, rough andsmooth, and if the sandwich you
grabbed is falling apart.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
The hand was tested on 15 everyday objects, and
those objects included softitems like plush toys and
sponges, delicate items likethin plastic cups that were
filled with water.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Oh man, I struggle with those myself, chris.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
As I was reading this article, I thought, oh boy,
like I.
I think my nickname should beButterfingers, because
everything just slips out of mygrasp, but this hand, yes, like
I was saying, it was tested onthose objects soft items,
delicate items, but then alsorigid objects, so things with
more weight or substance, likemetal, water bottles or
(08:54):
pineapples, even, and actuallycardboard boxes.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Are you ready kids.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
I'm captain.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Because SpongeBob lives in a pineapple.
I was just talking about thecardboard boxes, because
bernoulli loves cardboard boxes,as does ginger yes, they have
one brain, the two of them, andthey ran the the hand or the
hand through a bunch ofperformance metrics so, wildly
enough, it's crazy accurate.
(09:21):
It had a 99.7 accurate rate inhandling objects, probably near
the average person handling allthose random things.
Think about everything you pickup in a day and how many times
you drop it my keys, my keys, myphone yeah just shoots right
out of my hands yeah, and adjustthe hand automatically,
(09:44):
adjusted things to preventcrushing or dropping, and they
challenged the people to liftthis fragile cup of water with
only three fingers three of thefingers without denting it, and
it did just fine.
Absolutely, bananas.
Yeah.
One thing they mentioned wasbeing able to have handshakes
and vary the firmness of thehandshake.
(10:05):
That's so cool.
I'm sure you've shake.
Have you shaken a lot of hands,chris?
Some people are like squishersthey squish your hand and some
people are like limp fish.
Yeah, anyways, that's very cool.
This prosthetic could tell thedifference and adjust to cord
accordingly.
So you start to squish theprosthetic hand with your firm
handshake and it'll squish youright back like that.
(10:26):
But as science does, it looksto the future to improve.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
This prosthetic hand was tested on heavier objects
like water bottles, but they'relooking at enhancing grip
strength for even heavierobjects and adding more advanced
sensors heavier objects andadding more advanced sensors and
that will improve sensoryperception as well.
Looking at different materialslike industrial grade material
(10:52):
for durability.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Oh, that makes sense, cause if you've got like a
delicate skin, our bodies canmake, remake skin as it gets
damaged.
But I don't know about thishand.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
But the impact.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
I wonder if it could do deadlifts, lift weights in
the future maybe that hybriddexterity technology could
advance robotic hands used inmanufacturing health care as
well as space exploration.
So it's not just something thatcan be used for someone who is
missing or who is an amputee,and robots actually need
(11:31):
delicate handling skills formaterials like glass or fabric
or electronics.
So it has a use in a lot ofdifferent industries and fields.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
See that's the thing that I love talking to kids
about is like when this.
Obviously money had to comefrom somewhere for this right
and you can't always determinethe future outcome of the
research that you do.
And yes, you make somebody'slife better by improving this
prosthetic hand, but if you're,like very into making money, how
(12:07):
does that make you a lot ofmoney helping people?
It's always the offshoots ofscience that go on to make
people big bucks.
Space exploration is a goodexample.
There was massive risk, withouta lot of payback back in the
day, to get things in outerspace, and now space industry is
(12:27):
privatized and making crazymoney.
When we help others, there arealways offshoots of that in
science.
So high five for science, hey,chris.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
High five for science .
Speaker 1 (12:38):
All right, that's science news for this week, this
week in animal science.
Sorry, I couldn't find a petarticle this week this week in
animal science.
Sorry, I couldn't find a petarticle this week.
Uh, but you forwarded me thisarticle and we our account was
tagged like 17 times by thisarticle and the guest I spoke to
yesterday, who will be on somefuture podcast, talked about
(12:59):
this and it's the woolly mousebelieve it or not, scientists
have genetically modified miceto exhibit some key traits of
the extinct woolly mammoth.
Now is the woolly mammoth one ofyour favorite extinct mammals.
Not a dinosaur, but extinctanimal.
Do you have a favorite extinctanimal?
Speaker 2 (13:19):
The saber-toothed tiger.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Okay, I thought I knew that because you like cats.
I think you know what mine is,because I talk about it non-stop
not the spinosaurus no a mammalextinct mammal oh the mammal.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Okay, it's the.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
It's a giant sloth yeah, the giant sloth, I love
the giant sloths.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Yeah, yeah and what's the name of it?
Because we I got your picturewith it I you need to go stand
beside that giant sloth, andyou're like no.
And I said absolutely yes, isit called the giant sloth?
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Yeah, they've got a bunch of different names.
They are enormous.
They roam South America all theway up into Canada.
They think they're easily Idon't know five times the size
of a person when they stood upon their hind legs, like we're
talking creatures that wouldboggle your mind.
Woolly mammoths are no sloucheither.
They were enormous as well.
(14:13):
But as this story is about thewoolly mammoth and a woolly
mouse, why is this a big dealLike?
Why is this a thing that's abig deal beyond being odd?
Speaker 2 (14:22):
I think we're going to get into the pros and cons of
, you know, resurrecting thewoolly mammoth or resurrecting
extinct species, because thereare definite pros involved but
definitely cons as well.
But the woolly mouse is astepping stone towards
(14:43):
de-extinction efforts for thewoolly mammoth, and Colossal
Biosciences is a Dallas-basedcompany leading the research
with the goal of resurrectingextinct species.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Now the science I went into.
It's a lot of geneticengineering and they implanted
genetically modified embryosinto female lab mice and last
October so October 2024, thewoolly mice were born.
But they're not called woollymice, they're called woolly pups
(15:18):
and the company believes thatreviving species like the
mammoth and dodo could helprestore damaged ecosystems.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
But on the flip side of that the critics of the
resurrection.
They question whetherde-extinction is safe for the
environment or the animalsthemselves.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
You can Google image the woolly mouse and they are
wild looking.
They have long woolly hair andthey have fat metabolism adapted
for cold environments.
Now you can't see the secondone, but they do look pretty
wild in the photos, in thearticles.
And these genetic traits weresearched for in the woolly
(16:00):
mammoth DNA, because ancientwoolly mammoth DNA has been
scooped up from the tundra.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
from preserved woolly mammoths we've found what they
did is they compared ancientmammoth DNA with the genetic
sequences of African and Asianelephants, which are the
mammoth's closest relatives, andthen so they were looking for
genetic traits and their searchfor those traits in mice, to see
if they would produce similareffects.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
So just to clarify, you're right, Chris.
They identified the genesresponsible for the mammoth
characteristics in our elephantstoday and they use genetic
engineering techniques to modifymice DNA based on mammoth genes
.
So they didn't necessarily putmammoth genes in the mouse.
They modified mouse genes tomimic mammoth genes, so they
didn't necessarily put mammothgenes in the mouse.
They modified mouse genes tomimic mammoth genes and they got
(16:50):
mice with long woolly goldencoats, not unlike Manny the
Mammoth from the Ice Age movies.
Everybody's intrigued, butthere's a bunch of scientists
who are doubtful that we canscale this up to elephants,
because that's what they'relooking at next, I believe
they're going.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
They're planning to use the same genetic
modifications to asian elephantembryos and, similarly to the
mouse.
The modified embryos would beimplanted into female elephants,
which they will give birth to,calves with the mammoth like
traits.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Oh my God, baby elephants are already so cute.
Can you imagine a baby elephantwith like long flowing golden
hair?
I know we're going to get tothe ethics of it, but that would
be adorable.
Gabriello Mastromonaco isactually the toronto zoo and
she's on record saying thesede-extinction techniques are a
(17:47):
distraction from conservation.
There also could beunpredictable effects.
When you're monkeying with dnaand then letting them loose into
the environment, especially ifthey can breed with elephants
that are already out there,you're going to start to create
new species.
And what?
Once it happens?
You can't go back.
There's a bunch of problemsthere.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Some critics are wondering will the restored
species behave like the mammothsonce did?
Speaker 3 (18:13):
I don't know how did they behave?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
That's just it right.
The world is not quite the sameplace that it was when the
woolly mammoths were walking onit, so how can they be sure that
it's going to be a success?
And, like you said, you can'tput the toothpaste back into the
tube once you have releasedthis into the wild.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Right and mammoths, can you know?
They're covered with long fur.
They can withstand colderclimates Like they are.
The hope is that they're goingto go and into areas and restore
the ecosystems like they oncewere.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
When we're talking about changing the ecosystem.
They can reduce the carbonescape and affect climate change
is what some of the scientistswho are pro re-extinction,
re-distinction or de-extinctionare suggesting that they could
potentially do.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
And are we going to see these woolly mammoths like
in 25 years wandering around inthe tundra having to fight polar
bear?
I guess it might be anotherfood source for the rapidly
dwindling polar bear numbers.
But are woolly mammoths violent?
Or is our Inuit people thatlive way up there going to have
to deal with mammoth attacks?
There's so wild to thinkintroducing some kind of crazy
(19:38):
huge creature like that inWetundra right Wild yeah,
wetundra right.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Wild yeah.
But there there are futureplans, so the company aims to
produce mammoth, like asianelephant embryos, by 2025.
It's 2025 right now and they'relater this year yeah, this year
and they're looking at thefirst mammoth like calves,
expected by 2028.
Wow, they're also working onreviving the dodo bird and the
tasmanian tiger that's crazy Idon't know.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
There's part of me that I'm curious.
I want to see what they wouldlook like moving around, because
all we have is skeletons of thedodo bird, maybe paintings, and
obviously no eyewitnessaccounts that are reliable of
what the mammoths look like whenthey were alive and moving
around.
Oh, we have the skeleton, butthe Tasmanian tiger that's
(20:33):
relatively newly extinct.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
It's a lot of resources being spent on
de-extinction that that moneycould be spent on conservation
and helping the animals that arecurrently endangered or very
close to being extinct.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
I just Googled that the Tasmanian tiger went extinct
in 1936.
So there's people alive todaythat would have potentially seen
it move around, be alive as acreature have potentially seen
it move around, be alive as acreature.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
But like just think of like relocation efforts where
they reintroduce wolves intoyellowstone national park and
the positive things thathappened by doing that and our
beaver is an ecosystem engineerand changing our ecological
landscape in our creek.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Yeah, and the settlers killed all the beavers
and it messed up the water right.
So you take something out ofthe ecosystem.
It messes it up.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
But now we have current ecosystems and then just
re-bringing in something thathas been extinct.
What could that do?
What kind of environmentalrisks are there?
And you know what?
There's only so many resourcesto go around.
So if we're thinking of, likethe specialist niche or the
broad niche up north, what isthe resource allocation and what
(22:00):
is going to be the food sourcefor the woolly mammoth?
Speaker 1 (22:04):
What does it eat?
What does it eat on the time?
Grubby bushes, like there's nota lot of.
I was on the tundra, chris.
There's nothing, not a lot of.
Like whole lot of nothing.
Little scrubby busheseverywhere that these little
ptarmigan birds live under.
They're pretty cute.
Actually, coming soon to atundra near you 2028, according
(22:27):
to this company is some littlebaby woolly mammoths.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Pretty wild.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
And it all starts with a woolly mouse.
All right, that's animalscience for this week.
Hello everybody, here's someways you can keep the science
podcast free.
Number one in our show notessign up to be a member of our
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It's an amazing community offolks who love pets and folks
(22:53):
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(23:14):
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Okay, on with the show.
Back to the interviews.
It's time for Ask an Expert onthe Science Podcast, and I have
(23:35):
Dr Kevin Morgan, an expert incatalysis chemistry.
Doc, how are you doing today?
I'm keeping on yourself.
I'm good.
I'm good Fun.
I always ask guests where theyare in the world and where
they're calling in from.
You're a little ways away fromus?
Where are you in the world?
Speaker 3 (23:53):
I am.
I'm the other side of the pondin Belfast in.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Northern Ireland.
I would love to get to Irelandone of these days.
My wife and I are seriouslylooking at a little trip through
England, scotland and thenIreland maybe Very cool part of
the world.
Have you lived there your wholelife?
Speaker 3 (24:08):
I have.
Yes, yeah, I've not livedanywhere else, but it's nice.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
I like it.
Nice, yeah, belfast is right.
You're right on the ocean,aren't you Like?
In between the Big Island andyourself?
Isn't that where Belfast is?
If I'm?
Speaker 3 (24:24):
remembering.
Yes, so we're right at theIrish Sea in between Ireland and
Scotland.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Very cool.
We're very landlocked here inAlberta, canada.
Any kind of ocean is a day ofdriving at least straight.
So jealous of you so Iintroduced you as a Dr Morgan
expert in catalysis chemistry.
What's your training in science?
Can you tell everybody aboutthat?
Just briefly?
Speaker 3 (24:50):
yeah, so I completed an undergraduate degree in
chemistry, queen's universitybelfast yeah and followed that
up with a phd in chemicalengineering focusing on
catalysts, and again, that was aqueen's.
I've not really left the islandto do much with my career so
(25:11):
yeah, that's primarily where mybackground has been.
In the last six years I'vemoved, focusing much more on
chemical education research justby virtue of teaching more and
more chemistry to students,which is the physical chemistry
side of things.
It's catalyst, catalyticreactors, thermodynamics, that
(25:32):
sort of stuff nice uh, I, I'm ahigh school chemistry teacher
myself.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Yeah, very familiar with the whole catalyst part of
chemistry.
Very cool.
What was it that got you intochemistry like?
Why did you get bit by achemistry bug?
What happened there?
Speaker 3 (25:48):
yeah, I suppose it's hard to pinpoint.
I think we can probably allpoint back to something in our
childhood and you're probablyfamiliar with as well the csi
effect it's called.
But I suppose growing up Iremember ghostbusters and how
maybe real science, just thepseudoscience and the authority
(26:10):
of the Ghostbusters and how theywere tackling stuff.
And then growing up in theJurassic Park from that and I
suppose the interesting thingwas always trying to do the
right thing and how you can dothat through science.
And the thing that sticks outto me from Jurassic Park is Jeff
(26:32):
Goldblum just saying yourscientists were so interested in
whether they could they didn'tstop to think about whether they
should.
And I actually teach ethics nowto our chemical engineers and
that's something I always pointback to.
So there's those influenceseven outside of school.
But then it's the z and a veryenthusiastic chemistry teacher
(26:55):
at school and I suppose that'swhere the you really catch the
bug, when you have someone likethat, someone like yourself,
standing up and it just reallyinfuses you about the subject
and I think you just pursue itbecause of that.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Yeah, that's funny.
You mentioned, like movie, tvshow, pop culture influencing
you.
I've talked before on thescience podcast.
I was heavily influenced tobecome a scientist and then I'm
not a teacher by Dr Dana Scullyfrom the X-Files right.
I just saw her as a hero ofcritical thinking, even as a
(27:33):
teenager.
So I love yeah, I love also theheroes of the Ghostbusters are
the quote-unquote scientists,which are fun too.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
So my wife would be a big fan of Dana Scully as well.
I'm a big fan of Dina Scully aswell.
I'm a big fan of X-Files.
So, yeah, I think there wasjust so much when we were
growing up of science ontelevision and the movies that
it just really did pique thatinterest.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Yeah, we need that again, I love the Marvel movies
but we need to bring back backsome of the critical thinking,
scientists or the heroes typething.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
It's better if the scientists create the heroes.
I think that's what's happeningnow I think you'd probably
enjoy.
A colleague of mine that'sbased in Trinity College Dublin
just released a book onchemistry in the movies and on
television.
Oh cool, and he does visitingtalks on it.
It's excellent all the thingshe talks about.
(28:33):
But I mean there are some morerecent examples.
I suppose that maybe we don'tthink about, as you say, the
world dominated by Marvel movies, but I mean we did have
Oppenheimer, I know.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
That was a good get for the history of physics at
that time, for sure yeah yeah,just before I've got.
I got a couple other questionsfor you, but I'm familiar with
what catalysts are and sincethis is something you've studied
very in depth, kevin, could youjust give us a rundown of what
catalysts are and maybe wherethey're used?
Like where would somebody who'ssomebody not in science would
(29:10):
understand where and whycatalysts would be used?
Do you mind?
Speaker 3 (29:14):
No, not at all.
I guess catalysts are probablyeverywhere.
Automotive vehicle probablyhave a catalytic converter on it
at the back which is justhelping to clean up the exhaust
and removing harmful substancesfrom the air.
(29:34):
So while people may not haveheard of it, they've been
utilizing it every day of theirlives that way.
But almost all industrialprocesses have a catalyst in
there somewhere and the purposeof the catalyst is either to
reduce the energy input or toincrease yield and selectivity.
(29:55):
Reduce waste.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
That's a big one.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
It is, yeah, so green chemistry just more sustainable
.
I don't even like to say theword waste.
Normally, I always see waste asanother resource.
It's the feedstock forsomething else.
But atlas are all about makingthe process more efficient,
whether it is in terms offeedstock or energy and even
cost.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Sometimes they are so important to everything that we
use and maybe even take forgranted, the analogy I give my
students is like a catalyst inan industrial situation is the
difference between baking a cakeat 450 for 30 minutes and
you'll be able to bake the cakeat 100 Fahrenheit or whatever,
because our stoves in Canada areFahrenheit Celsius in 10
(30:42):
minutes.
So you can just bake the cakecool, with less energy, quicker.
I don't know if that's a goodanalogy for the higher level
stuff that you stuff, youcovered.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
No, it's up up absolutely an apt analogy, but I
suppose another one issometimes it opens up a
different route to the finalproduct.
So maybe a shortcut instead ofgoing over all the hills of the
traditional activation energy,maybe you find a secret valley
that you don't have to go up toas high a temperature.
(31:15):
So maybe a combination of thetwo analogies there would work
quite well, I like it.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
I appreciate that.
I always like sneaking inchemistry where I can, because
that's my background.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
It's hard to get me to stop talking about it.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
So this is fun.
We've got a.
We have something that youactually mentioned to me as we
were leading up to thisinterview about there's some
really cool chemistry history inBelfast and I was like I don't
know anything about this and I'msure our audience would you
mind regaling us of some of thechemistry history you got to
tell us.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
Yeah, I'll probably head backwards in time.
I think, Belfast is mostly known, either for a number of reasons
of the Titanic, a dividedsociety or Ireland in general
(32:11):
being known for alcoholicbeverages.
But in terms of, yeah,absolutely.
But in terms of chemistry,we're actually fortunate at
Queen's University Belfast to beone of the few universities
that has two Royal Society ofChemistry landmark plaques, and
we unveiled one last year inhonour of someone who taught me.
He's an emeritus professor now.
(32:32):
He only recently retired AP DeSilva, who designed
photo-induced electron transferanalysers which are used almost
as disposable blood testing kitsin emergency healthcare, so in
ambulances, but also inveterinary applications, which
obviously you'll be veryinterested in as well, and the
(32:55):
inspiration for that wasactually treating his own
grandmother's high bloodpressure.
That's something that goes backto 1980s 1990s, so AAP is
originally from Sri Lanka.
He started the work there, hecontinued it when he moved to
Belfast, very proud of that.
The amount of lives that it hassaved, that science that led to
(33:17):
this device has beenimmeasurable.
In fact, moving slightlyfurther back then, queens and
Belfast are quite well known forionic liquids.
I don't know if you've maybeheard of those or not, but
they're salt in a liquid stateunder ambient conditions and
they can be widely used in greenchemistry as alternative
(33:39):
solvents and catalysts, whichwe've already been talking about
.
The professor Ken Seddon, whounfortunately is no longer with
us um, it was the founder ofthat in queens and he was well
renowned for ionic liquids.
But that's a research centerand we love our acronyms in
belfast, so it's quill.
So queens university ionicliquids lab that's still going
(34:03):
strong was founded in 1999.
So it's been going for 25 years, nice.
But it's not always beendirectly about chemistry.
As we go a little bit furtherback to the 40s, we had a
professor, alfred Stewart, whowas very well known in organic
chemistry, but actually he had apseudonym and was a crime
(34:26):
writer of jay connington andactually written 17 novels under
that pseudonym.
So there's that little bit ofhistory.
But queen's university is inits 180th year this year, so
founded in 1845 and its firstvice president was our first
professor of chemistry, who wasthomas andrews, who was taught
(34:51):
by lord kelvin's father.
So a lot of people maybe don'trealize lord kelvin was born in
belfast before moving to glasgowand thomas andrews taught in
the same institute where LordKelvin's father had taught and
where Lord Kelvin himself waseducated and became that first
(35:12):
professor of chemistry at whatwas the Northern College of the
Queen's University of Irelandback then.
That became Queen's CollegeBelfast back in 1845.
They didn't have studentscoming until 1849.
Thomas Andrews held on to thoseroles to 1879.
34 years at the top of theorganisation.
(35:34):
But his chemistry backgroundwas physical chemistry.
A bit like myself, he was oneof the first to identify that
ozone was an allotrope of oxygen.
But also he worked on theliquefaction of carbon dioxide.
So a lot of his work has goneinto liquid refrigerants, why we
(35:55):
have household refrigeration.
But that sort of work betweencontinuity of gas and liquid
state has become inspirationsfor others.
Johannes Diederik van der WaalsI'm sure you've heard of.
His equation of state was baseda lot on what Thomas Andrews'
calculations were.
This is quite apt for mebecause I actually teach
(36:17):
equations of state.
Even now, going back, that workfrom the 1860s is still holding
up.
So well.
But he is such an interestingcharacter.
He had what we would call atriple crown.
Almost uniquely, he was afellow of the Royal Society of
London, a fellow of the RoyalSociety of Edinburgh and a
(36:41):
member of the Royal IrishAcademy, and very few people
managed to get all three ofthose.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Sorry, it was the third one.
The third one is that's, oneI'm not familiar with.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
Yes, so it's the Royal Irish Academy.
It's the equivalent of both theRoyal Society of London and the
Royal Society of Edinburgh, butbased in Dublin.
So it's Irish based.
It's Irish based.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Okay, gotcha.
So Scotland, UK, and then.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
Irish, but it dates back to, obviously, while the
whole of Ireland was part of theUnited Kingdom.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Right.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
So it dates well back .
So it has retained its royaltitle Gotcha Even now.
He was a real interestingcharacter, even outside of
chemistry.
So as a leader of a universityhe was very much focused on what
a university was about for thepublic good.
He was an early advocate foradmitting women to the
(37:39):
university, as far back as 1870.
Good on him.
It was 1882 before Queen'sfinally admitted people.82
before Queen's finally admittedpeople, but before Queen's he
was a general practitioner, adoctor, as was very common at
the time for medically trainedpeople to go into the natural
sciences.
But he did a lot of charitywork and setting up soup
(38:03):
kitchens to help those duringthe Irish potato famine Famine.
So he helped with that.
He's a really interestingcharacter and one of the things
he actually did from the medicalpoint of view was investigated
the harmful effects of alcoholicbeverages, which is something
(38:25):
that we're going to move on toIrony hey.
Yeah, absolutely, and I supposethe interesting thing about him
and connecting with yourself isthat we believe his descendants
are in and around Vancouver andthe wider state of British
Columbia as well.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Oh, there you go.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
He does have other descendants, but that seems to
be where the largest cohort haveended up.
But yeah, it's possibly one ofthe most influential chemists
that you've never heard of.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
That is amazing Good place to settle.
If you're from Ireland, theclimate of Vancouver would be
similar.
Yeah, absolutely.
It would probably be a prettyrude awakening to settle where
we live in the middle of Alberta.
Speaker 3 (39:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
I see all the snow all the time.
Oh man, it's rough, we haverough winters.
Can I quick question forget thethe scientists you're
mentioning that found theallotrope thomas thomas andrews
andrews.
Okay, gotcha a little moreirony discovering ozone but then
also working with refrigeratedsystems, which
(39:36):
chlorofluorocarbons led to thedestruction of the ozone layer
later on.
That's a fun connection thereyeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
I think those refrigerants definitely predate
him, but that that work did leadthere in the end, yeah, okay,
that is, that is really cool.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
That is cool.
Um, yeah, I don't have.
I don't have much follow-upquestions there, I'm just like
processing, processing all of it.
I do appreciate that somescientists, their inventions
come from the need to help thosearound them, as is that the one
chemist you mentioned that hada grandmother that was
struggling with.
(40:21):
It was blood pressure, yeah, soap de silva yeah ap de silva.
Okay, very cool, all right.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
It makes me want to look more into this stuff we had
great celebration last yearwith we unveiled ap de silva's
national chemical landmark onthe 10th of april and then we
restored thomas andrews grave onthe 11th of April and then we
restored Thomas Andrew's graveon the 11th of April.
So it was a very busy week andI was involved in organizing
(40:49):
both.
So it's a really enjoyable andhumbling experience for
different reasons, butdefinitely a very busy week.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
I appreciate you giving us some of the history of
the Belfast area.
That's not a perspective that Idon't know.
I don't want to be silly aboutthis, but I don't think many
people would know anything aboutthose folks without somebody
like yourself telling us.
So I do appreciate that.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
I think it's a very harsh thing that we maybe don't
shout from the rooftop about ourachievements very often.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
You need to be a little bit more braggy sometimes
.
Yes, Moving on to some otherscience adjacent to some of the
folks you talked about, StPatrick's Day is coming up.
I hear tell that's a big dealin Ireland.
Just a little bit.
Speaker 3 (41:40):
Just a little bit.
But not even just Ireland, I'mpretty sure it's.
It's a one day of the yearwhere everyone wants to be Irish
, that's true, yep, okay, yougot me there, yeah and some,
some cities, and particularlyyour side of the Atlantic, um,
do it much bigger than what wedo here.
Uh, yeah, it's one of ourexports.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Yeah.
So just to give you aperspective, where I live, the
students, the kids because I'm ahigh school teacher try to wear
green.
Obviously, I have a green tiethat I wear.
And then there's kids wanderingaround with Kiss Me, I'm Irish
t-shirts and they're like you'renot Irish, you're from India,
right?
(42:26):
So they're just being sillyright?
So the one day of the year youwant to be Irish, you're right,
because I've seen the kids withthe shirts and they're clearly
not from Ireland.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
We're a very inclusive society now.
Despite our recent history, wetry to be very inclusive.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Now on the terms of some beverages folks may want to
enjoy on saint patrick's day.
Many of them obviously are fromireland, like guinness bailey's
irish cream, irish coffee andthen some very nice whiskeys, I
hear tell.
I was wondering if you couldtell us a little bit about the
chemistry that goes into some ofthose drinks.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
Yeah, so actually Andy Brunning, who you've
probably heard of from CompoundChem, has done a load of
infographics around Guinnesschemistry and whiskey and he's
published them in Chemical andEngineering News.
But, like some of thebackground is somewhat similar
ingredients, when you thinkabout it, to both the beers and
(43:26):
the whiskies.
So you're starting with a grainand in the case of Guinness
it's hops and that's what givesit the better taste.
The colour itself comes fromthe reaction between the sugars
and the proteins when they'reheated and that's why it's so
dark as well.
Uniquely, or perhaps unique tohow I know, guinness contains
(43:49):
nitrogen as well as carbondioxide.
So most beverages we're used toit being predominantly carbon
dioxide, but there's a lot ofnitrogen in there.
Partly that helps to actuallyreduce the bitterness in in the
taste of the guinness.
I suppose that's how it'sdistinct from other beers.
We do have lots of other beersin ireland, but I guinness is
(44:12):
probably the best known oh, it'scrazy well known.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
yeah, if somebody in canada was like, hey, what's a
drink from ireland?
Two seconds they'd say Guinnessand then probably Bailey's,
because you'd put that in yourcoffee on a day that you got
nothing else to do maybe youcould end up in lots of
different discussions as towhat's a beer, what's a lager
(44:37):
and what's a stout as well.
Speaker 3 (44:39):
I'm not a big enough aficionado to be able to tell
you the difference there, butthat's what sort of discussion
you would have.
Then you mentioned the Irishcoffee, which key ingredient is
the whiskies which you alsomentioned as well.
From a very chemicalperspective, physical chemistry,
Irish whiskey has to be tripledistilled or it's not allowed to
(45:03):
be called Irish whiskey.
Scot whiskey has to be tripledistilled or it's not allowed to
be called Irish whiskey.
Scotch has to be doublydistilled to distillations, and
a lot of North American whiskeyswould maybe only have a single
stage distillation.
So that's a sort of veryobvious differentiation between
some of the more common whiskeysthat you'd be drinking.
(45:23):
Irish whiskey is typically amalted barley that goes into the
mashing and the fermentation.
As I said, triple distilled,usually in copper stills.
We're back to using copper forheat conduction, but also
there's consideration thatcopper can act as a catalyst for
(45:44):
some of the reactions that youwant to happen.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
Oh nice.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
That's part of the process.
And then you have to age it.
Irish whisky is aged in oakbarrels.
Now each distillery will use anoak barrel.
It's never a virgin oak barrel.
It's always been typically usedto host some other spirit prior
(46:09):
to that to add to the flavour,and that's at the discretion of
those master distillers, goingway back when to when those
distilleries started.
But that's where some of thecolour comes from, as well as
the flavours that comes from the, the Irish whiskeys there is a
(46:30):
lot to that.
Speaker 1 (46:31):
This is this could be an hour discussion if we get
get into it we, during covid,had a whiskey session.
Speaker 3 (46:40):
So I have a friend, a friend from Scotland, who knows
all about the distillationprocess, as far as I know, for
Queen's chemistry department.
He did an informative talk, butit was an opportunity for us
all to show off our whiskycollections over Teams and Zoom
at the time.
That went on for more than anhour.
(47:03):
As I'm sure you can imagine, wehad nothing else to do those
evenings.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
So the next question before we wrap this up here, Doc
, in Canada one of the verystereotypical meals you've
probably heard of is poutine,and it's not something the
average Canadianadian eats veryoften.
It's just not.
Does the average nice personfrom ireland do they partake in
(47:30):
some of these drinks?
Speaker 3 (47:33):
so I think we will call it potching.
So actually there's probablysimilar origins in the language
there.
It wouldn't necessarily be alegal beverage.
I've never known it to bepresent when I've been around
before.
But yeah, so I think you'd betalking home distilling and
things like that to to createthat if we're talking about the
(47:57):
same type of beverage there.
Speaker 1 (47:59):
Yeah, very fun.
Yeah, what would you?
Which drink would you recommendfor somebody on saint patrick's
day if they could get theirhands?
Speaker 3 (48:11):
I'm very hard because we've got.
Speaker 1 (48:13):
Canada has really good relationships with ireland.
Speaker 3 (48:16):
There's no tariffs or anything like that for people
listening I'm partial tojameson's, the irish whiskey
okay, which did start in dublin,and when you come visit with
your wife there's a brilliantdistillery tour for that, just
like there's a brilliant tour ofthe the guinness storehouse as
(48:37):
well in dublin.
But production has moved toCork down the very southwest now
of Jameson's.
But it's a very smooth whiskeyand I tend to favor that.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
Love it All.
Right, thanks, Doc.
As we wrap up our interview, wealways ask our guests if they
have any pet stories they'd liketo share from their life.
Speaker 3 (49:01):
as this is the Science Podcast, yeah,
absolutely, any pet storiesthey'd like to share from their
life.
As this is the science podcast?
Yeah, absolutely.
I'll start and keeping on theirish theme that the um irish
president, and so in therepublic of ireland, dublin, is
a big fan of bernie's mountaindogs as well, which you may not
know no, I know he's a ratherdiminutive fellow and the dogs
(49:23):
look giant next to him.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Is this correct?
Speaker 3 (49:25):
Absolutely.
He's had three of them.
Unfortunately, only one of themis still with us, so he had
Brode first, which is Irish forpride, then Sheeta, which is
Irish for silk.
He currently has Mishnock,which was the youngest.
Mishnock overlapped with Broaduntil a few years ago.
(49:45):
Mishnock means courage, which Ithought, considering Bunsen's
run-in with the coyote, that youwould find quite apt as well.
But I just thought that itwould interest you.
And they live in Ars Anuchthron, which is the president's
residence in the middle phoenixpark in dublin.
(50:07):
But I thought that was a nicelink for you and your own family
.
Here at home we have a 14 yearold lasa apso named dally.
As you can imagine, he'sgetting a bit slower and lazier
and now, but um, for most of hislife he used to climb up on the
(50:28):
back of our sofa just to get tolick my ears, and I would
actually lean on my back pushingdown on me to to lick my ears,
um, so I've always loved doingthat.
The one other thing that Iremember him doing is, um, an
old bed that we had.
He used to be able to go rightunderneath it and I used to have
(50:50):
books under there, and he musthave a craving for intellect,
because he he used to chewparticularly stephen fry books a
whole good choice.
Some pretty good humor there yes, I wasn't particularly thrilled
about it at the time, butlooking back now you can laugh
at that.
But yeah, he's been great withour daughters, just so relaxed
(51:14):
around them.
Great dog, as I said, he's justso much energy sometimes, but
right now he took himself off tobed and was just lazing
upstairs at the moment.
Speaker 1 (51:27):
So, yeah, bunsen's getting a little older and he
does a little lot more sleepingtoo.
But you know what he's put hishe's what I tell people when he
sleeps a little bit more.
It's like he's earned thatsleep, the amount of joy that
he's given our family and theworld.
Speaker 3 (51:41):
he can start to move towards retirement yeah,
absolutely, and you know youreally enjoy the fact when they
just sit up next to you anddon't want to move.
Yeah, on the couch, consideringthat they don't always like to
be held and cuddled much harderwith a bernese, of course but
when they get to that point ofactually wanting to stay next to
(52:03):
you, it's rewarding for us inthe same way as you said,
they've earned that rest theyhave.
Speaker 1 (52:09):
If any creature on earth has earned that rest, it's
the dog absolutely well, kevin,thanks for sharing your pet
story with us.
That was really sweet and wethere's a fan account of brode.
They say that right the bernicemountain dog yeah yeah, there's
a fan account that follows usthat was constantly.
(52:31):
It was just joyful seeing I'msorry, is it the president of
ireland?
Speaker 3 (52:36):
it's the president of the republic of ireland
republic of ireland.
Speaker 1 (52:39):
Yeah, it was joyful seeing the president with his
dogs and I was trying to getinto his pocket.
There's like a viral clip, Ithink, of one of the dogs trying
to get treats out of his pocketand he was giving like a very
important talk or speech to themedia and it was like he was
shoving it away and it keptwanting treats.
Speaker 3 (52:57):
It's very yeah yeah, no, that's it.
But they're just such a greatdog and they would have the run
of the house, it seems, duringstate functions as well.
So there's other videos.
If you have time, you'll justsee them searching through the
state function rooms and a crowdlooking for him and finding him
(53:17):
to find.
And again, it's always aboutthe treats.
Yeah, that's sweet.
Speaker 1 (53:23):
We're at the end of the chat.
Kevin, thank you so much forgiving up your time to talk to
us about some of your expertisein chemistry A really engaging
history lesson of the chemistryof Ireland, specifically where
you are in the Belfast region,and then a little bit about
Irish spirits.
Thanks for giving up your time,thank you.
(53:44):
I'll ask the question and thenI'll go ahead with whatever
you'd like to say Before we wrapup.
Doc, are you on social mediaanywhere?
Folks could track you down.
Speaker 3 (53:55):
Yeah, so I'm on X, formerly known as Twitter, and
on Blue Sky and LinkedIn as well, but you'll find me on X and
Blue Sky as Dr Kevin Morgan andon LinkedIn, kevin Morgan at
Queen's University, belfast.
Speaker 1 (54:13):
Perfect, we'll make sure there's a couple links in
our show notes.
Okay, all right, take care ofyourself.
I know, with the time changeit's got to be almost bedtime
for you.
Speaker 3 (54:22):
Have yourself a great evening.
Yeah, thank you, and you aswell.
Speaker 1 (54:30):
That's it for this week's show.
Thanks for coming back weekafter week to listen to us, and
if you'd love to support what wedo, check out the show notes
and sign up for part of the PawPack.
That's like our Patreon groupand a top tier member gets their
name shouted out.
So, chris, let's hear thosemembers that support us so much.
Speaker 2 (54:45):
Amelia Fetig Rhi, oda , carol Hainel, jennifer Challen
, linnea Janik, karen Chronister, vicky Otero, christy Walker,
sarah Bram, wendy, diane Masonand Luke Helen Chin, elizabeth
Bourgeois, marianne McNally,catherine Jordan, helen Chin,
elizabeth Bourgeois, marianneMcNally, catherine Jordan,
(55:06):
shelley Smith, laura Steffensen,tracy Leinbach, anne Uchida,
heather Burbach, kelly TracyHalbert, ben Rather, Debbie
Anderson, sandy Breimer, maryGrater, bianca Hyde, andrew Lin,
brenda Clark, brianne Hawes,Peggy McKeel, holly Burge, kathy
Zerker, susan Wagner and LizButton.
Speaker 1 (55:26):
For science, empathy and cuteness.
Woof, woof, woof, woof.
Speaker 3 (55:33):
Woof.
Hello science enthusiasts.
I'm Jason Zukoski.
And I'm Chris Zukoski, we'rethe pet parents of Bunsen,
beaker, bernoulli and Ginger.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
The science animals on social media.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
If you love science.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
And you love pets.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
You've come to the right spot, so put on your
safety glasses and hold on toyour tail.
This is the Science Podcast.
Hello and welcome back to theScience Podcast.
We hope you're happy andhealthy out there.
This is episode five of seasonseven.
It's been good for my mentalhealth this week to do some
research for the Science Podcastand, of course, talk to some
(00:44):
amazing guests coming up fory'all to listen to over the next
couple months and then justhave time with chris to have
some fun back and forth um withyou know how the roller coaster
we are experiencing up here incanada at this time is um, not a
roller coaster is the dogs.
They're really steady.
Bunsen's maybe plateaued a bitthis week.
So if you're worried his health, it's not like he's gone
(01:06):
backwards, but unlike theprevious weeks where we've seen
some gains, he's kind ofplateaued a bit.
I'm not sure if that's good orbad.
Big breaking news, though, isBeaker went to with Bernoulli to
Waggle's puppy daycare and shehad a great day.
She's a COVID puppy and can bea little snippy with dogs
occasionally not all the time,but occasionally so we were a
(01:28):
little worried about that, butthe reports are she had tons of
fun and made some friends and wegot some photos of her smiling
and that made it so, so worth it.
It's good for her to get outwith some other dogs and burn
off some energy.
Okay, well, what's on thescience podcast?
This week In science news,chris and I break down a really
big advancement in prosthetichands.
That is almost sciencefiction-y.
(01:50):
Very cool and good news there.
And in animal science we breakdown the viral picture study
controversy around the woollymouse.
It was a lot of fun talkingabout it.
Little spooky, little spookyyep.
And our guest and ask an expertthis week is Dr Kevin Morgan.
St Patrick's Day is coming upand Dr Kevin is from Ireland.
(02:12):
A proud Irish chemist talks tous a little bit about the
history of chemistry in Irelandand celebrating St Patrick's Day
with a little bit of chemistry.
All right on with the show.
There's no time like sciencetime this week in science news.
I think we got to give sciencea hand for its developments here
(02:35):
, chris.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Ooh, very good.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
And, while the puns fit, the science that we're
looking at is actually quiteserious for folks that might
need it.
Now I'll start with I loverobotics.
I'm not a robotic programmer,but I guess I love the idea of
robotics and robots for as longas I could remember, and I have
been showing my class theprogression of these robots
(03:02):
built by Boston Dynamics.
Are you familiar with thoserobots, Chris?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Yeah, Flint is a Boston robotic dog at the Tellus
World of Science.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Yeah, that spot for the people that maybe are
following Boston Dynamics.
They have a four-legged robot,they have a two-legged robot and
they've got a couple giantrobots on wheels.
I think where it stems from forme, chris, is that it's a very
dated movie.
I watched Short Circuit like athousand times when I was young.
(03:35):
Do you remember Short Circuit?
Speaker 2 (03:38):
I do.
I'm not as familiar with it asyou are, because you said you
watched it so many times, johnnynumber five is alive and you
are yourself like a robot, whereyou're able to pull facts and
data as if by out of the air.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
You're amazing that way all right, we'll get to the
science news item, because it'sactually extremely cool.
Let's start with giving k newsitem, because it's actually
extremely cool.
Let's start with giving kudosto where it's from Engineers at
John Hopkins University.
They've developed a first ofits kind prosthetic hand that
can grip everyday objects withprecision.
(04:19):
That means it can adjust itsgrasp to prevent squishing or
mishandling.
And where previous prostheticsmaybe aren't as good, especially
the robotics, one is they wereeither way too rigid or soft,
meaning they would squash thingsor not be rigid enough to pick
(04:39):
up stuff.
And this system from JohnHopkins balances flexibility and
strength.
Now where this is coming inwith Boston Dynamics, as I show
the kids a video, what the robotdog thing Flint Spot.
It has an arm that can go onits back and it tried to pick up
a soda can or pop can and itgrabbed it and exploded all over
(05:00):
the guy it was supposed to handto.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
So anyways, so that's lacking both flexibility.
I guess it has the strength,but it doesn't have the.
It's too rigid.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Yeah, think about.
I guess.
Just think about stuff in youreveryday life that requires the
softest touch to pick up, and ifyou were like Rammy with it,
you would damage it.
Think of everything like eatinga sandwich even right, Like a
sandwich is soft bread and itcould fall apart.
Just the manual dexterity totouch things is quite lacking
(05:33):
with robotic systems.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
But this innovation is very promising because it can
potentially significantlyimprove the lives of individuals
that have upper limb loss andactually revolutionize how the
robotic arms interact with theirenvironment.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Chris, what is it made of?
Speaker 2 (05:55):
They have that hybrid design that you were talking
about, which combines rigid 3Dprinting internal structures.
I know I was thinking boy,jason's gonna really like that
part, because Jason's also anavid 3d printer person but it
combines the internal structurethat's 3d printed with soft
(06:15):
rubber like polymers whichreplicate human bone joints and
tissues, and it has a multifinger system system which
includes air-filled fingerjoints that actually can be
controlled using forearm musclesignals.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Now that's the wild part, chris.
If you have this arm, you flexthe same muscles in your forearm
, not one-to-one, but very close.
You control the hand to graband to grasp things as the
person I don't know.
It's crazy.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
That's wild.
And this prosthetic hand isinspired by human skin, and so
the hand actually has threelayers of sensors to detect and
differentiate between variousobject shapes and textures, and
so what that allows theprosthetic to do is like what
you were saying having a gentletouch when needed versus a more
(07:14):
firm grasp when it's warranted.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Right, and then continuing.
The cool part is there's awhole bunch of like machine
learning AI that's integratedinto it.
So from the fingers itprocesses that, those senses
that you just mentioned.
You know that's modeled afterhuman skin and it converts the
data into nerve like signals,sending it back to the person
with the hand for realisticsensory feedback through
(07:39):
electrical nerve simulation.
So they don't have folks who'vehad the hand with testimonial,
but the idea is like you grabsomething very soft like a
sponge, it sends the signal backto your arm and you feel the
hand grabbing the sponge and itsends, and then that artificial
hand sends touch signals to thebrain.
(08:01):
And also this is another wildpart it allows the user to sense
temperature, texture and if youare slipping with your grip, so
hot and cold objects, rough andsmooth, and if the sandwich you
grabbed is falling apart.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
The hand was tested on 15 everyday objects, and
those objects included softitems like plush toys and
sponges, delicate items likethin plastic cups that were
filled with water.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Oh man, I struggle with those myself, chris.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
As I was reading this article, I thought, oh boy,
like I.
I think my nickname should beButterfingers, because
everything just slips out of mygrasp, but this hand, yes, like
I was saying, it was tested onthose objects soft items,
delicate items, but then alsorigid objects, so things with
more weight or substance, likemetal, water bottles or
(08:54):
pineapples, even, and actuallycardboard boxes.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Are you ready kids.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
I'm captain.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Because SpongeBob lives in a pineapple.
I was just talking about thecardboard boxes, because
bernoulli loves cardboard boxes,as does ginger yes, they have
one brain, the two of them, andthey ran the the hand or the
hand through a bunch ofperformance metrics so, wildly
enough, it's crazy accurate.
(09:21):
It had a 99.7 accurate rate inhandling objects, probably near
the average person handling allthose random things.
Think about everything you pickup in a day and how many times
you drop it my keys, my keys, myphone yeah just shoots right
out of my hands yeah, and adjustthe hand automatically,
(09:44):
adjusted things to preventcrushing or dropping, and they
challenged the people to liftthis fragile cup of water with
only three fingers three of thefingers without denting it, and
it did just fine.
Absolutely, bananas.
Yeah.
One thing they mentioned wasbeing able to have handshakes
and vary the firmness of thehandshake.
(10:05):
That's so cool.
I'm sure you've shake.
Have you shaken a lot of hands,chris?
Some people are like squishersthey squish your hand and some
people are like limp fish.
Yeah, anyways, that's very cool.
This prosthetic could tell thedifference and adjust to cord
accordingly.
So you start to squish theprosthetic hand with your firm
handshake and it'll squish youright back like that.
(10:26):
But as science does, it looksto the future to improve.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
This prosthetic hand was tested on heavier objects
like water bottles, but they'relooking at enhancing grip
strength for even heavierobjects and adding more advanced
sensors heavier objects andadding more advanced sensors and
that will improve sensoryperception as well.
Looking at different materialslike industrial grade material
(10:52):
for durability.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Oh, that makes sense, cause if you've got like a
delicate skin, our bodies canmake, remake skin as it gets
damaged.
But I don't know about thishand.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
But the impact.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
I wonder if it could do deadlifts, lift weights in
the future maybe that hybriddexterity technology could
advance robotic hands used inmanufacturing health care as
well as space exploration.
So it's not just something thatcan be used for someone who is
missing or who is an amputee,and robots actually need
(11:31):
delicate handling skills formaterials like glass or fabric
or electronics.
So it has a use in a lot ofdifferent industries and fields.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
See that's the thing that I love talking to kids
about is like when this.
Obviously money had to comefrom somewhere for this right
and you can't always determinethe future outcome of the
research that you do.
And yes, you make somebody'slife better by improving this
prosthetic hand, but if you're,like very into making money, how
(12:07):
does that make you a lot ofmoney helping people?
It's always the offshoots ofscience that go on to make
people big bucks.
Space exploration is a goodexample.
There was massive risk, withouta lot of payback back in the
day, to get things in outerspace, and now space industry is
(12:27):
privatized and making crazymoney.
When we help others, there arealways offshoots of that in
science.
So high five for science, hey,chris.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
High five for science .
Speaker 1 (12:38):
All right, that's science news for this week, this
week in animal science.
Sorry, I couldn't find a petarticle this week this week in
animal science.
Sorry, I couldn't find a petarticle this week.
Uh, but you forwarded me thisarticle and we our account was
tagged like 17 times by thisarticle and the guest I spoke to
yesterday, who will be on somefuture podcast, talked about
(12:59):
this and it's the woolly mousebelieve it or not, scientists
have genetically modified miceto exhibit some key traits of
the extinct woolly mammoth.
Now is the woolly mammoth one ofyour favorite extinct mammals.
Not a dinosaur, but extinctanimal.
Do you have a favorite extinctanimal?
Speaker 2 (13:19):
The saber-toothed tiger.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Okay, I thought I knew that because you like cats.
I think you know what mine is,because I talk about it non-stop
not the spinosaurus no a mammalextinct mammal oh the mammal.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Okay, it's the.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
It's a giant sloth yeah, the giant sloth, I love
the giant sloths.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Yeah, yeah and what's the name of it?
Because we I got your picturewith it I you need to go stand
beside that giant sloth, andyou're like no.
And I said absolutely yes, isit called the giant sloth?
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Yeah, they've got a bunch of different names.
They are enormous.
They roam South America all theway up into Canada.
They think they're easily Idon't know five times the size
of a person when they stood upon their hind legs, like we're
talking creatures that wouldboggle your mind.
Woolly mammoths are no sloucheither.
They were enormous as well.
(14:13):
But as this story is about thewoolly mammoth and a woolly
mouse, why is this a big dealLike?
Why is this a thing that's abig deal beyond being odd?
Speaker 2 (14:22):
I think we're going to get into the pros and cons of
, you know, resurrecting thewoolly mammoth or resurrecting
extinct species, because thereare definite pros involved but
definitely cons as well.
But the woolly mouse is astepping stone towards
(14:43):
de-extinction efforts for thewoolly mammoth, and Colossal
Biosciences is a Dallas-basedcompany leading the research
with the goal of resurrectingextinct species.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Now the science I went into.
It's a lot of geneticengineering and they implanted
genetically modified embryosinto female lab mice and last
October so October 2024, thewoolly mice were born.
But they're not called woollymice, they're called woolly pups
(15:18):
and the company believes thatreviving species like the
mammoth and dodo could helprestore damaged ecosystems.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
But on the flip side of that the critics of the
resurrection.
They question whetherde-extinction is safe for the
environment or the animalsthemselves.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
You can Google image the woolly mouse and they are
wild looking.
They have long woolly hair andthey have fat metabolism adapted
for cold environments.
Now you can't see the secondone, but they do look pretty
wild in the photos, in thearticles.
And these genetic traits weresearched for in the woolly
(16:00):
mammoth DNA, because ancientwoolly mammoth DNA has been
scooped up from the tundra.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
from preserved woolly mammoths we've found what they
did is they compared ancientmammoth DNA with the genetic
sequences of African and Asianelephants, which are the
mammoth's closest relatives, andthen so they were looking for
genetic traits and their searchfor those traits in mice, to see
if they would produce similareffects.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
So just to clarify, you're right, Chris.
They identified the genesresponsible for the mammoth
characteristics in our elephantstoday and they use genetic
engineering techniques to modifymice DNA based on mammoth genes
.
So they didn't necessarily putmammoth genes in the mouse.
They modified mouse genes tomimic mammoth genes, so they
didn't necessarily put mammothgenes in the mouse.
They modified mouse genes tomimic mammoth genes and they got
(16:50):
mice with long woolly goldencoats, not unlike Manny the
Mammoth from the Ice Age movies.
Everybody's intrigued, butthere's a bunch of scientists
who are doubtful that we canscale this up to elephants,
because that's what they'relooking at next, I believe
they're going.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
They're planning to use the same genetic
modifications to asian elephantembryos and, similarly to the
mouse.
The modified embryos would beimplanted into female elephants,
which they will give birth to,calves with the mammoth like
traits.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Oh my God, baby elephants are already so cute.
Can you imagine a baby elephantwith like long flowing golden
hair?
I know we're going to get tothe ethics of it, but that would
be adorable.
Gabriello Mastromonaco isactually the toronto zoo and
she's on record saying thesede-extinction techniques are a
(17:47):
distraction from conservation.
There also could beunpredictable effects.
When you're monkeying with dnaand then letting them loose into
the environment, especially ifthey can breed with elephants
that are already out there,you're going to start to create
new species.
And what?
Once it happens?
You can't go back.
There's a bunch of problemsthere.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Some critics are wondering will the restored
species behave like the mammothsonce did?
Speaker 3 (18:13):
I don't know how did they behave?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
That's just it right.
The world is not quite the sameplace that it was when the
woolly mammoths were walking onit, so how can they be sure that
it's going to be a success?
And, like you said, you can'tput the toothpaste back into the
tube once you have releasedthis into the wild.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Right and mammoths, can you know?
They're covered with long fur.
They can withstand colderclimates Like they are.
The hope is that they're goingto go and into areas and restore
the ecosystems like they oncewere.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
When we're talking about changing the ecosystem.
They can reduce the carbonescape and affect climate change
is what some of the scientistswho are pro re-extinction,
re-distinction or de-extinctionare suggesting that they could
potentially do.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
And are we going to see these woolly mammoths like
in 25 years wandering around inthe tundra having to fight polar
bear?
I guess it might be anotherfood source for the rapidly
dwindling polar bear numbers.
But are woolly mammoths violent?
Or is our Inuit people thatlive way up there going to have
to deal with mammoth attacks?
There's so wild to thinkintroducing some kind of crazy
(19:38):
huge creature like that inWetundra right Wild yeah,
wetundra right.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Wild yeah.
But there there are futureplans, so the company aims to
produce mammoth, like asianelephant embryos, by 2025.
It's 2025 right now and they'relater this year yeah, this year
and they're looking at thefirst mammoth like calves,
expected by 2028.
Wow, they're also working onreviving the dodo bird and the
tasmanian tiger that's crazy Idon't know.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
There's part of me that I'm curious.
I want to see what they wouldlook like moving around, because
all we have is skeletons of thedodo bird, maybe paintings, and
obviously no eyewitnessaccounts that are reliable of
what the mammoths look like whenthey were alive and moving
around.
Oh, we have the skeleton, butthe Tasmanian tiger that's
(20:33):
relatively newly extinct.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
It's a lot of resources being spent on
de-extinction that that moneycould be spent on conservation
and helping the animals that arecurrently endangered or very
close to being extinct.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
I just Googled that the Tasmanian tiger went extinct
in 1936.
So there's people alive todaythat would have potentially seen
it move around, be alive as acreature have potentially seen
it move around, be alive as acreature.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
But like just think of like relocation efforts where
they reintroduce wolves intoyellowstone national park and
the positive things thathappened by doing that and our
beaver is an ecosystem engineerand changing our ecological
landscape in our creek.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Yeah, and the settlers killed all the beavers
and it messed up the water right.
So you take something out ofthe ecosystem.
It messes it up.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
But now we have current ecosystems and then just
re-bringing in something thathas been extinct.
What could that do?
What kind of environmentalrisks are there?
And you know what?
There's only so many resourcesto go around.
So if we're thinking of, likethe specialist niche or the
broad niche up north, what isthe resource allocation and what
(22:00):
is going to be the food sourcefor the woolly mammoth?
Speaker 1 (22:04):
What does it eat?
What does it eat on the time?
Grubby bushes, like there's nota lot of.
I was on the tundra, chris.
There's nothing, not a lot of.
Like whole lot of nothing.
Little scrubby busheseverywhere that these little
ptarmigan birds live under.
They're pretty cute.
Actually, coming soon to atundra near you 2028, according
(22:27):
to this company is some littlebaby woolly mammoths.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Pretty wild.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
And it all starts with a woolly mouse.
All right, that's animalscience for this week.
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Okay, on with the show.
Back to the interviews.
It's time for Ask an Expert onthe Science Podcast, and I have
(23:35):
Dr Kevin Morgan, an expert incatalysis chemistry.
Doc, how are you doing today?
I'm keeping on yourself.
I'm good.
I'm good Fun.
I always ask guests where theyare in the world and where
they're calling in from.
You're a little ways away fromus?
Where are you in the world?
Speaker 3 (23:53):
I am.
I'm the other side of the pondin Belfast in.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Northern Ireland.
I would love to get to Irelandone of these days.
My wife and I are seriouslylooking at a little trip through
England, scotland and thenIreland maybe Very cool part of
the world.
Have you lived there your wholelife?
Speaker 3 (24:08):
I have.
Yes, yeah, I've not livedanywhere else, but it's nice.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
I like it.
Nice, yeah, belfast is right.
You're right on the ocean,aren't you Like?
In between the Big Island andyourself?
Isn't that where Belfast is?
If I'm?
Speaker 3 (24:24):
remembering.
Yes, so we're right at theIrish Sea in between Ireland and
Scotland.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Very cool.
We're very landlocked here inAlberta, canada.
Any kind of ocean is a day ofdriving at least straight.
So jealous of you so Iintroduced you as a Dr Morgan
expert in catalysis chemistry.
What's your training in science?
Can you tell everybody aboutthat?
Just briefly?
Speaker 3 (24:50):
yeah, so I completed an undergraduate degree in
chemistry, queen's universitybelfast yeah and followed that
up with a phd in chemicalengineering focusing on
catalysts, and again, that was aqueen's.
I've not really left the islandto do much with my career so
(25:11):
yeah, that's primarily where mybackground has been.
In the last six years I'vemoved, focusing much more on
chemical education research justby virtue of teaching more and
more chemistry to students,which is the physical chemistry
side of things.
It's catalyst, catalyticreactors, thermodynamics, that
(25:32):
sort of stuff nice uh, I, I'm ahigh school chemistry teacher
myself.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Yeah, very familiar with the whole catalyst part of
chemistry.
Very cool.
What was it that got you intochemistry like?
Why did you get bit by achemistry bug?
What happened there?
Speaker 3 (25:48):
yeah, I suppose it's hard to pinpoint.
I think we can probably allpoint back to something in our
childhood and you're probablyfamiliar with as well the csi
effect it's called.
But I suppose growing up Iremember ghostbusters and how
maybe real science, just thepseudoscience and the authority
(26:10):
of the Ghostbusters and how theywere tackling stuff.
And then growing up in theJurassic Park from that and I
suppose the interesting thingwas always trying to do the
right thing and how you can dothat through science.
And the thing that sticks outto me from Jurassic Park is Jeff
(26:32):
Goldblum just saying yourscientists were so interested in
whether they could they didn'tstop to think about whether they
should.
And I actually teach ethics nowto our chemical engineers and
that's something I always pointback to.
So there's those influenceseven outside of school.
But then it's the z and a veryenthusiastic chemistry teacher
(26:55):
at school and I suppose that'swhere the you really catch the
bug, when you have someone likethat, someone like yourself,
standing up and it just reallyinfuses you about the subject
and I think you just pursue itbecause of that.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Yeah, that's funny.
You mentioned, like movie, tvshow, pop culture influencing
you.
I've talked before on thescience podcast.
I was heavily influenced tobecome a scientist and then I'm
not a teacher by Dr Dana Scullyfrom the X-Files right.
I just saw her as a hero ofcritical thinking, even as a
(27:33):
teenager.
So I love yeah, I love also theheroes of the Ghostbusters are
the quote-unquote scientists,which are fun too.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
So my wife would be a big fan of Dana Scully as well.
I'm a big fan of Dina Scully aswell.
I'm a big fan of X-Files.
So, yeah, I think there wasjust so much when we were
growing up of science ontelevision and the movies that
it just really did pique thatinterest.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Yeah, we need that again, I love the Marvel movies
but we need to bring back backsome of the critical thinking,
scientists or the heroes typething.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
It's better if the scientists create the heroes.
I think that's what's happeningnow I think you'd probably
enjoy.
A colleague of mine that'sbased in Trinity College Dublin
just released a book onchemistry in the movies and on
television.
Oh cool, and he does visitingtalks on it.
It's excellent all the thingshe talks about.
(28:33):
But I mean there are some morerecent examples.
I suppose that maybe we don'tthink about, as you say, the
world dominated by Marvel movies, but I mean we did have
Oppenheimer, I know.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
That was a good get for the history of physics at
that time, for sure yeah yeah,just before I've got.
I got a couple other questionsfor you, but I'm familiar with
what catalysts are and sincethis is something you've studied
very in depth, kevin, could youjust give us a rundown of what
catalysts are and maybe wherethey're used?
Like where would somebody who'ssomebody not in science would
(29:10):
understand where and whycatalysts would be used?
Do you mind?
Speaker 3 (29:14):
No, not at all.
I guess catalysts are probablyeverywhere.
Automotive vehicle probablyhave a catalytic converter on it
at the back which is justhelping to clean up the exhaust
and removing harmful substancesfrom the air.
(29:34):
So while people may not haveheard of it, they've been
utilizing it every day of theirlives that way.
But almost all industrialprocesses have a catalyst in
there somewhere and the purposeof the catalyst is either to
reduce the energy input or toincrease yield and selectivity.
(29:55):
Reduce waste.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
That's a big one.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
It is, yeah, so green chemistry just more sustainable
.
I don't even like to say theword waste.
Normally, I always see waste asanother resource.
It's the feedstock forsomething else.
But atlas are all about makingthe process more efficient,
whether it is in terms offeedstock or energy and even
cost.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Sometimes they are so important to everything that we
use and maybe even take forgranted, the analogy I give my
students is like a catalyst inan industrial situation is the
difference between baking a cakeat 450 for 30 minutes and
you'll be able to bake the cakeat 100 Fahrenheit or whatever,
because our stoves in Canada areFahrenheit Celsius in 10
(30:42):
minutes.
So you can just bake the cakecool, with less energy, quicker.
I don't know if that's a goodanalogy for the higher level
stuff that you stuff, youcovered.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
No, it's up up absolutely an apt analogy, but I
suppose another one issometimes it opens up a
different route to the finalproduct.
So maybe a shortcut instead ofgoing over all the hills of the
traditional activation energy,maybe you find a secret valley
that you don't have to go up toas high a temperature.
(31:15):
So maybe a combination of thetwo analogies there would work
quite well, I like it.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
I appreciate that.
I always like sneaking inchemistry where I can, because
that's my background.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
It's hard to get me to stop talking about it.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
So this is fun.
We've got a.
We have something that youactually mentioned to me as we
were leading up to thisinterview about there's some
really cool chemistry history inBelfast and I was like I don't
know anything about this and I'msure our audience would you
mind regaling us of some of thechemistry history you got to
tell us.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
Yeah, I'll probably head backwards in time.
I think, Belfast is mostly known, either for a number of reasons
of the Titanic, a dividedsociety or Ireland in general
(32:11):
being known for alcoholicbeverages.
But in terms of, yeah,absolutely.
But in terms of chemistry,we're actually fortunate at
Queen's University Belfast to beone of the few universities
that has two Royal Society ofChemistry landmark plaques, and
we unveiled one last year inhonour of someone who taught me.
He's an emeritus professor now.
(32:32):
He only recently retired AP DeSilva, who designed
photo-induced electron transferanalysers which are used almost
as disposable blood testing kitsin emergency healthcare, so in
ambulances, but also inveterinary applications, which
obviously you'll be veryinterested in as well, and the
(32:55):
inspiration for that wasactually treating his own
grandmother's high bloodpressure.
That's something that goes backto 1980s 1990s, so AAP is
originally from Sri Lanka.
He started the work there, hecontinued it when he moved to
Belfast, very proud of that.
The amount of lives that it hassaved, that science that led to
(33:17):
this device has beenimmeasurable.
In fact, moving slightlyfurther back then, queens and
Belfast are quite well known forionic liquids.
I don't know if you've maybeheard of those or not, but
they're salt in a liquid stateunder ambient conditions and
they can be widely used in greenchemistry as alternative
(33:39):
solvents and catalysts, whichwe've already been talking about
.
The professor Ken Seddon, whounfortunately is no longer with
us um, it was the founder ofthat in queens and he was well
renowned for ionic liquids.
But that's a research centerand we love our acronyms in
belfast, so it's quill.
So queens university ionicliquids lab that's still going
(34:03):
strong was founded in 1999.
So it's been going for 25 years, nice.
But it's not always beendirectly about chemistry.
As we go a little bit furtherback to the 40s, we had a
professor, alfred Stewart, whowas very well known in organic
chemistry, but actually he had apseudonym and was a crime
(34:26):
writer of jay connington andactually written 17 novels under
that pseudonym.
So there's that little bit ofhistory.
But queen's university is inits 180th year this year, so
founded in 1845 and its firstvice president was our first
professor of chemistry, who wasthomas andrews, who was taught
(34:51):
by lord kelvin's father.
So a lot of people maybe don'trealize lord kelvin was born in
belfast before moving to glasgowand thomas andrews taught in
the same institute where LordKelvin's father had taught and
where Lord Kelvin himself waseducated and became that first
(35:12):
professor of chemistry at whatwas the Northern College of the
Queen's University of Irelandback then.
That became Queen's CollegeBelfast back in 1845.
They didn't have studentscoming until 1849.
Thomas Andrews held on to thoseroles to 1879.
34 years at the top of theorganisation.
(35:34):
But his chemistry backgroundwas physical chemistry.
A bit like myself, he was oneof the first to identify that
ozone was an allotrope of oxygen.
But also he worked on theliquefaction of carbon dioxide.
So a lot of his work has goneinto liquid refrigerants, why we
(35:55):
have household refrigeration.
But that sort of work betweencontinuity of gas and liquid
state has become inspirationsfor others.
Johannes Diederik van der WaalsI'm sure you've heard of.
His equation of state was baseda lot on what Thomas Andrews'
calculations were.
This is quite apt for mebecause I actually teach
(36:17):
equations of state.
Even now, going back, that workfrom the 1860s is still holding
up.
So well.
But he is such an interestingcharacter.
He had what we would call atriple crown.
Almost uniquely, he was afellow of the Royal Society of
London, a fellow of the RoyalSociety of Edinburgh and a
(36:41):
member of the Royal IrishAcademy, and very few people
managed to get all three ofthose.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Sorry, it was the third one.
The third one is that's, oneI'm not familiar with.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
Yes, so it's the Royal Irish Academy.
It's the equivalent of both theRoyal Society of London and the
Royal Society of Edinburgh, butbased in Dublin.
So it's Irish based.
It's Irish based.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Okay, gotcha.
So Scotland, UK, and then.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
Irish, but it dates back to, obviously, while the
whole of Ireland was part of theUnited Kingdom.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Right.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
So it dates well back .
So it has retained its royaltitle Gotcha Even now.
He was a real interestingcharacter, even outside of
chemistry.
So as a leader of a universityhe was very much focused on what
a university was about for thepublic good.
He was an early advocate foradmitting women to the
(37:39):
university, as far back as 1870.
Good on him.
It was 1882 before Queen'sfinally admitted people.82
before Queen's finally admittedpeople, but before Queen's he
was a general practitioner, adoctor, as was very common at
the time for medically trainedpeople to go into the natural
sciences.
But he did a lot of charitywork and setting up soup
(38:03):
kitchens to help those duringthe Irish potato famine Famine.
So he helped with that.
He's a really interestingcharacter and one of the things
he actually did from the medicalpoint of view was investigated
the harmful effects of alcoholicbeverages, which is something
(38:25):
that we're going to move on toIrony hey.
Yeah, absolutely, and I supposethe interesting thing about him
and connecting with yourself isthat we believe his descendants
are in and around Vancouver andthe wider state of British
Columbia as well.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Oh, there you go.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
He does have other descendants, but that seems to
be where the largest cohort haveended up.
But yeah, it's possibly one ofthe most influential chemists
that you've never heard of.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
That is amazing Good place to settle.
If you're from Ireland, theclimate of Vancouver would be
similar.
Yeah, absolutely.
It would probably be a prettyrude awakening to settle where
we live in the middle of Alberta.
Speaker 3 (39:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
I see all the snow all the time.
Oh man, it's rough, we haverough winters.
Can I quick question forget thethe scientists you're
mentioning that found theallotrope thomas thomas andrews
andrews.
Okay, gotcha a little moreirony discovering ozone but then
also working with refrigeratedsystems, which
(39:36):
chlorofluorocarbons led to thedestruction of the ozone layer
later on.
That's a fun connection thereyeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
I think those refrigerants definitely predate
him, but that that work did leadthere in the end, yeah, okay,
that is, that is really cool.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
That is cool.
Um, yeah, I don't have.
I don't have much follow-upquestions there, I'm just like
processing, processing all of it.
I do appreciate that somescientists, their inventions
come from the need to help thosearound them, as is that the one
chemist you mentioned that hada grandmother that was
struggling with.
(40:21):
It was blood pressure, yeah, soap de silva yeah ap de silva.
Okay, very cool, all right.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
It makes me want to look more into this stuff we had
great celebration last yearwith we unveiled ap de silva's
national chemical landmark onthe 10th of april and then we
restored thomas andrews grave onthe 11th of April and then we
restored Thomas Andrew's graveon the 11th of April.
So it was a very busy week andI was involved in organizing
(40:49):
both.
So it's a really enjoyable andhumbling experience for
different reasons, butdefinitely a very busy week.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
I appreciate you giving us some of the history of
the Belfast area.
That's not a perspective that Idon't know.
I don't want to be silly aboutthis, but I don't think many
people would know anything aboutthose folks without somebody
like yourself telling us.
So I do appreciate that.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
I think it's a very harsh thing that we maybe don't
shout from the rooftop about ourachievements very often.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
You need to be a little bit more braggy sometimes
.
Yes, Moving on to some otherscience adjacent to some of the
folks you talked about, StPatrick's Day is coming up.
I hear tell that's a big dealin Ireland.
Just a little bit.
Speaker 3 (41:40):
Just a little bit.
But not even just Ireland, I'mpretty sure it's.
It's a one day of the yearwhere everyone wants to be Irish
, that's true, yep, okay, yougot me there, yeah and some,
some cities, and particularlyyour side of the Atlantic, um,
do it much bigger than what wedo here.
Uh, yeah, it's one of ourexports.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Yeah.
So just to give you aperspective, where I live, the
students, the kids because I'm ahigh school teacher try to wear
green.
Obviously, I have a green tiethat I wear.
And then there's kids wanderingaround with Kiss Me, I'm Irish
t-shirts and they're like you'renot Irish, you're from India,
right?
(42:26):
So they're just being sillyright?
So the one day of the year youwant to be Irish, you're right,
because I've seen the kids withthe shirts and they're clearly
not from Ireland.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
We're a very inclusive society now.
Despite our recent history, wetry to be very inclusive.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Now on the terms of some beverages folks may want to
enjoy on saint patrick's day.
Many of them obviously are fromireland, like guinness bailey's
irish cream, irish coffee andthen some very nice whiskeys, I
hear tell.
I was wondering if you couldtell us a little bit about the
chemistry that goes into some ofthose drinks.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
Yeah, so actually Andy Brunning, who you've
probably heard of from CompoundChem, has done a load of
infographics around Guinnesschemistry and whiskey and he's
published them in Chemical andEngineering News.
But, like some of thebackground is somewhat similar
ingredients, when you thinkabout it, to both the beers and
(43:26):
the whiskies.
So you're starting with a grainand in the case of Guinness
it's hops and that's what givesit the better taste.
The colour itself comes fromthe reaction between the sugars
and the proteins when they'reheated and that's why it's so
dark as well.
Uniquely, or perhaps unique tohow I know, guinness contains
(43:49):
nitrogen as well as carbondioxide.
So most beverages we're used toit being predominantly carbon
dioxide, but there's a lot ofnitrogen in there.
Partly that helps to actuallyreduce the bitterness in in the
taste of the guinness.
I suppose that's how it'sdistinct from other beers.
We do have lots of other beersin ireland, but I guinness is
(44:12):
probably the best known oh, it'scrazy well known.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
yeah, if somebody in canada was like, hey, what's a
drink from ireland?
Two seconds they'd say Guinnessand then probably Bailey's,
because you'd put that in yourcoffee on a day that you got
nothing else to do maybe youcould end up in lots of
different discussions as towhat's a beer, what's a lager
(44:37):
and what's a stout as well.
Speaker 3 (44:39):
I'm not a big enough aficionado to be able to tell
you the difference there, butthat's what sort of discussion
you would have.
Then you mentioned the Irishcoffee, which key ingredient is
the whiskies which you alsomentioned as well.
From a very chemicalperspective, physical chemistry,
Irish whiskey has to be tripledistilled or it's not allowed to
(45:03):
be called Irish whiskey.
Scot whiskey has to be tripledistilled or it's not allowed to
be called Irish whiskey.
Scotch has to be doublydistilled to distillations, and
a lot of North American whiskeyswould maybe only have a single
stage distillation.
So that's a sort of veryobvious differentiation between
some of the more common whiskeysthat you'd be drinking.
(45:23):
Irish whiskey is typically amalted barley that goes into the
mashing and the fermentation.
As I said, triple distilled,usually in copper stills.
We're back to using copper forheat conduction, but also
there's consideration thatcopper can act as a catalyst for
(45:44):
some of the reactions that youwant to happen.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
Oh nice.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
That's part of the process.
And then you have to age it.
Irish whisky is aged in oakbarrels.
Now each distillery will use anoak barrel.
It's never a virgin oak barrel.
It's always been typically usedto host some other spirit prior
(46:09):
to that to add to the flavour,and that's at the discretion of
those master distillers, goingway back when to when those
distilleries started.
But that's where some of thecolour comes from, as well as
the flavours that comes from the, the Irish whiskeys there is a
(46:30):
lot to that.
Speaker 1 (46:31):
This is this could be an hour discussion if we get
get into it we, during covid,had a whiskey session.
Speaker 3 (46:40):
So I have a friend, a friend from Scotland, who knows
all about the distillationprocess, as far as I know, for
Queen's chemistry department.
He did an informative talk, butit was an opportunity for us
all to show off our whiskycollections over Teams and Zoom
at the time.
That went on for more than anhour.
(47:03):
As I'm sure you can imagine, wehad nothing else to do those
evenings.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
So the next question before we wrap this up here, Doc
, in Canada one of the verystereotypical meals you've
probably heard of is poutine,and it's not something the
average Canadianadian eats veryoften.
It's just not.
Does the average nice personfrom ireland do they partake in
(47:30):
some of these drinks?
Speaker 3 (47:33):
so I think we will call it potching.
So actually there's probablysimilar origins in the language
there.
It wouldn't necessarily be alegal beverage.
I've never known it to bepresent when I've been around
before.
But yeah, so I think you'd betalking home distilling and
things like that to to createthat if we're talking about the
(47:57):
same type of beverage there.
Speaker 1 (47:59):
Yeah, very fun.
Yeah, what would you?
Which drink would you recommendfor somebody on saint patrick's
day if they could get theirhands?
Speaker 3 (48:11):
I'm very hard because we've got.
Speaker 1 (48:13):
Canada has really good relationships with ireland.
Speaker 3 (48:16):
There's no tariffs or anything like that for people
listening I'm partial tojameson's, the irish whiskey
okay, which did start in dublin,and when you come visit with
your wife there's a brilliantdistillery tour for that, just
like there's a brilliant tour ofthe the guinness storehouse as
(48:37):
well in dublin.
But production has moved toCork down the very southwest now
of Jameson's.
But it's a very smooth whiskeyand I tend to favor that.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
Love it All.
Right, thanks, Doc.
As we wrap up our interview, wealways ask our guests if they
have any pet stories they'd liketo share from their life.
Speaker 3 (49:01):
as this is the Science Podcast, yeah,
absolutely, any pet storiesthey'd like to share from their
life.
As this is the science podcast?
Yeah, absolutely.
I'll start and keeping on theirish theme that the um irish
president, and so in therepublic of ireland, dublin, is
a big fan of bernie's mountaindogs as well, which you may not
know no, I know he's a ratherdiminutive fellow and the dogs
(49:23):
look giant next to him.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Is this correct?
Speaker 3 (49:25):
Absolutely.
He's had three of them.
Unfortunately, only one of themis still with us, so he had
Brode first, which is Irish forpride, then Sheeta, which is
Irish for silk.
He currently has Mishnock,which was the youngest.
Mishnock overlapped with Broaduntil a few years ago.
(49:45):
Mishnock means courage, which Ithought, considering Bunsen's
run-in with the coyote, that youwould find quite apt as well.
But I just thought that itwould interest you.
And they live in Ars Anuchthron, which is the president's
residence in the middle phoenixpark in dublin.
(50:07):
But I thought that was a nicelink for you and your own family
.
Here at home we have a 14 yearold lasa apso named dally.
As you can imagine, he'sgetting a bit slower and lazier
and now, but um, for most of hislife he used to climb up on the
(50:28):
back of our sofa just to get tolick my ears, and I would
actually lean on my back pushingdown on me to to lick my ears,
um, so I've always loved doingthat.
The one other thing that Iremember him doing is, um, an
old bed that we had.
He used to be able to go rightunderneath it and I used to have
(50:50):
books under there, and he musthave a craving for intellect,
because he he used to chewparticularly stephen fry books a
whole good choice.
Some pretty good humor there yes, I wasn't particularly thrilled
about it at the time, butlooking back now you can laugh
at that.
But yeah, he's been great withour daughters, just so relaxed
(51:14):
around them.
Great dog, as I said, he's justso much energy sometimes, but
right now he took himself off tobed and was just lazing
upstairs at the moment.
Speaker 1 (51:27):
So, yeah, bunsen's getting a little older and he
does a little lot more sleepingtoo.
But you know what he's put hishe's what I tell people when he
sleeps a little bit more.
It's like he's earned thatsleep, the amount of joy that
he's given our family and theworld.
Speaker 3 (51:41):
he can start to move towards retirement yeah,
absolutely, and you know youreally enjoy the fact when they
just sit up next to you anddon't want to move.
Yeah, on the couch, consideringthat they don't always like to
be held and cuddled much harderwith a bernese, of course but
when they get to that point ofactually wanting to stay next to
(52:03):
you, it's rewarding for us inthe same way as you said,
they've earned that rest theyhave.
Speaker 1 (52:09):
If any creature on earth has earned that rest, it's
the dog absolutely well, kevin,thanks for sharing your pet
story with us.
That was really sweet and wethere's a fan account of brode.
They say that right the bernicemountain dog yeah yeah, there's
a fan account that follows usthat was constantly.
(52:31):
It was just joyful seeing I'msorry, is it the president of
ireland?
Speaker 3 (52:36):
it's the president of the republic of ireland
republic of ireland.
Speaker 1 (52:39):
Yeah, it was joyful seeing the president with his
dogs and I was trying to getinto his pocket.
There's like a viral clip, Ithink, of one of the dogs trying
to get treats out of his pocketand he was giving like a very
important talk or speech to themedia and it was like he was
shoving it away and it keptwanting treats.
Speaker 3 (52:57):
It's very yeah yeah, no, that's it.
But they're just such a greatdog and they would have the run
of the house, it seems, duringstate functions as well.
So there's other videos.
If you have time, you'll justsee them searching through the
state function rooms and a crowdlooking for him and finding him
(53:17):
to find.
And again, it's always aboutthe treats.
Yeah, that's sweet.
Speaker 1 (53:23):
We're at the end of the chat.
Kevin, thank you so much forgiving up your time to talk to
us about some of your expertisein chemistry A really engaging
history lesson of the chemistryof Ireland, specifically where
you are in the Belfast region,and then a little bit about
Irish spirits.
Thanks for giving up your time,thank you.
(53:44):
I'll ask the question and thenI'll go ahead with whatever
you'd like to say Before we wrapup.
Doc, are you on social mediaanywhere?
Folks could track you down.
Speaker 3 (53:55):
Yeah, so I'm on X, formerly known as Twitter, and
on Blue Sky and LinkedIn as well, but you'll find me on X and
Blue Sky as Dr Kevin Morgan andon LinkedIn, kevin Morgan at
Queen's University, belfast.
Speaker 1 (54:13):
Perfect, we'll make sure there's a couple links in
our show notes.
Okay, all right, take care ofyourself.
I know, with the time changeit's got to be almost bedtime
for you.
Speaker 3 (54:22):
Have yourself a great evening.
Yeah, thank you, and you aswell.
Speaker 1 (54:30):
That's it for this week's show.
Thanks for coming back weekafter week to listen to us, and
if you'd love to support what wedo, check out the show notes
and sign up for part of the PawPack.
That's like our Patreon groupand a top tier member gets their
name shouted out.
So, chris, let's hear thosemembers that support us so much.
Speaker 2 (54:45):
Amelia Fetig Rhi, oda , carol Hainel, jennifer Challen
, linnea Janik, karen Chronister, vicky Otero, christy Walker,
sarah Bram, wendy, diane Masonand Luke Helen Chin, elizabeth
Bourgeois, marianne McNally,catherine Jordan, helen Chin,
elizabeth Bourgeois, marianneMcNally, catherine Jordan,
(55:06):
shelley Smith, laura Steffensen,tracy Leinbach, anne Uchida,
heather Burbach, kelly TracyHalbert, ben Rather, Debbie
Anderson, sandy Breimer, maryGrater, bianca Hyde, andrew Lin,
brenda Clark, brianne Hawes,Peggy McKeel, holly Burge, kathy
Zerker, susan Wagner and LizButton.
Speaker 1 (55:26):
For science, empathy and cuteness.
Woof, woof, woof, woof.
Speaker 3 (55:33):
Woof.
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