March 28, 2025 • 28 mins
This week on The Science Pawdcast:
• MIT researchers identified a 13-degree threshold in pedestrian movement patterns, below which people naturally form orderly lanes
• Angular spread exceeding 13 degrees creates chaotic, inefficient pedestrian flow in public spaces
• UC Berkeley engineers developed SALTO, a one-legged jumping robot inspired by squirrel biomechanics
• SALTO can land on narrow perches by mimicking how squirrels absorb 86% of landing energy with their front legs
• NASA is developing similar technology for exploring Saturn's moon with football-field length hops
• Study of 685 families found pets provided significant emotional comfort to children during COVID-19 isolation
• Children with rabbits, guinea pigs and birds showed higher attachment and comfort than those with cats or dogs
• Girls demonstrated higher pet attachment and more positive treatment of animals than boys
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hello science enthusiasts.
I'm Jason Zukoski.
And I'm Chris Zukoski, we'rethe pet parents of Bunsen,
beaker, bernoulli and Ginger.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
The science animals on social media.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
If you love science.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
And you love pets.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
You've come to the right spot, so put on your
safety glasses and hold on toyour tail.
This is the science podcast.
Hello everybody and welcomeback to the science podcast.
We hope you're happy andhealthy out there.
This is episode eight of seasonseven.
I apologize for my voice.
After this I woke up and Icould barely talk and I had to
(00:45):
teach all day and Chris and Icould only record it one day, so
you're going to have to dealwith my sick sounding voice.
I feel fine.
That aside, it has snowed allweek.
So for the weather update, it'salmost.
March is almost over and we doget a ton of snow in March, but
it snowed all day and there'scopious amounts of snow and it's
(01:07):
cold.
The creek is freezing up again.
The creek was running, but it'snot froze up again and the
weather and snow was so bad.
The photos out of our capital ofAlberta, Edmonton.
They had to close major roadsbecause it was so bananas like
buses sideways and these arelike people who know how to
(01:28):
drive in the winter with properwinter tires Just wild, Okay.
Well, what's on the show thisweek?
We have two science news itemsthis week.
The first one is about theperfect angle to keep people
walking seamlessly, and thesecond is all about a one-legged
jumping robot Pretty cute InPet Science we look at a really
(01:49):
wholesome study that checked outthe mental health of kids
during the pandemic and how petsmay be helped.
All right, let's get on withthe show.
There's no time like ScienceTime.
This week in Science News,let's talk about walking in
crowded locations.
Chris, you and I are bothteachers.
After a school assembly,getting out of the assembly is
(02:13):
like the most crowded I've everbeen in my entire life.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
That and walking in the hallways at lunchtime or
during a transition from classto class and you're trying to
get to the bathroom because, asa teacher, there's a finite
amount of time that you have togo use the bathroom, so you're
trying to get there quickly butit's like clogged arteries.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yeah, and especially if you're trying to move against
the grain, like good luck afterour after a pep rally at our
school with a thousand kids ormore and everybody's trying to
get to class after the pep rally.
If a kid like left their phonein the bleachers and they're
trying to get back, I'm justfeel so bad for them.
I'm like that's not happening.
That's like swimming upstreambut the stream is moving like 20
(03:02):
times faster than you can move.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yeah, exactly, cause everybody has one agenda and
that's to get out of the gym.
And here you are trying to getinto the gym.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
I've rarely been in places where it's been that busy
in my life, and we've been tosome pretty major cities like
Los Angeles and New York, thoughwhen we were at Times Square
that was pretty crazy busy thatone night.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Yeah, and then we also walked up and down the
strip in Vegas.
That wasn't too bad.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
That wasn't too bad.
There was a lot of people, butit wasn't too bad.
Yeah, and I guess that's whatthis article is about.
Mit instructor Carol Backickand his colleagues were looking
to understand and predict thetransition between two types of
pedestrian flow, where you haveone type of flow, which is like
(03:54):
people walking very organized inlanes, and chaotic flow, where
people are weaving unpredictablyeverywhere.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
So through their research, they're hoping to help
design safer, more efficientpublic spaces by providing the
scientific basis for pedestriantraffic patterns.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
And this was published in Proceedings of the
National Academy of Science.
And here's the scenarioPedestrians are navigating a
busy crosswalk and they'recrossing at various angles and
dodging one another to avoidcollisions.
All of the researchers use somepretty advanced thinking and
techniques like mathematicalmodeling, fluid dynamics,
(04:39):
computer simulations and evencontrolled physical experiments
with people walking around in agym.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
What they were looking at is a concept called
angular spread, and angularspread is defined as the range
of directions that pedestrianstake when they're crossing, and
what they found is if there is asmaller angular spread is, if
(05:07):
there is a smaller angularspread, so people moving in
opposite directions, for example, directly across a sidewalk
that encourages orderly,lane-like flow, whereas a larger
(05:29):
angular spread, where peopleare walking in various
directions.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
So, for an example, an open concourse.
That led to disordered andinefficient flow.
Oh so, like you're funneledinto one direction versus you're
not given a direction, you canwalk wherever you want.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
And so when we were in New York, we definitely
followed the flow of the trafficbecause we didn't know where we
were going and everybody elsereally looked like they did and
they were getting there in ahurry.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Yeah, the sidewalks were fast, but then when we got
to Times Square it was a schmoz.
So that's like the openconcourse versus the smaller
angular spread of lane-like flowon the sidewalks.
And you're right, people werebooking it in New York.
Boy, they've got places to go.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
I noticed everybody was wearing sneakers.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Which was so smart.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
They were dressed up in their suits, but they had
like running shoes on and Ithought, wow, that is smart.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
So you mentioned angular spread.
And here's somethinginteresting their critical
finding in the study was a 13degree threshold.
That was the tipping point.
If the average crossing angleexceeded 13 degrees, so you
could cross more than 13 degreesaway from somebody the
pedestrian flow becamedisordered.
But below this threshold, ifyou're funneled into a zone,
(06:44):
spontaneous lane formation wouldoccur without the need to paint
the ground or have up cones orropes or anything like that.
It's just if the averagecrossing angle was less than 13
degrees, people just formedlanes and they went along their
life in lanes.
But if it was more than that,chaos.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
So how did they find that?
Speaker 1 (07:07):
So they looked at lane formation in previous
studies.
There's like an imbalance inleft versus right turning
behavior.
That's an interesting thing aswell, as when you are queuing up
in a line, humans tend to queueto the left.
So here's a pro tip if you'reat like the movie theater and
you only have a few times to getyour treats and your snacks, if
(07:28):
you go to the far right tillchances are it'll have less
people on it than the left, tillwe're just on average, drawn to
the left, we are more likely toturn to the left, and then of
course, that affects laneformation.
One of their main conclusionscomes from their experiment
where they had people in a gymthey're volunteers and they gave
(07:51):
them hats with barcodes on themthat you would at your UPC code
, you'd scan at the supermarket,and they had barcodes on their
hats so they could be trackedfrom overhead.
And then they were just askedto walk from start to end across
a crosswalk and of course eachtrial started and ended and
created different flow patterns.
(08:12):
And then they used those anglesand they changed the angles
people moved at to determine iforderly flow performed or not.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
So their finding was the mathematical predictions
matched their observedpedestrian behavior.
So they were looking for thatangular spread beyond 13 degrees
which they found led to no laneformation and slower and less
efficient movement.
And so this demonstrated therobustness of lane formation
(08:40):
theory in an actual, imperfect,real life condition formation
theory in an actual, imperfect,real life condition.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
And obviously, if you're a city planner and you're
listening to this or you'rereading that research and you
want your pedestrians to movefrom point A to point B as
quickly as possible, the rule of13 is the golden standard.
So I don't know how many cityplanners or city engineers are
listening and I honestly don'tknow how you funnel people into
a less than 13 degree angle, butthat's how you get people to
book it instead of wanderingaround staring up into the sky,
(09:13):
like I was in New York City.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
That's true.
This made me think of disorder.
When we're walking on a hikingtrail with Beaker.
She has a move.
It's called the the I'm goingto trip you so you fall on your
face.
Move.
She reminds me of a chaoticpedestrian.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
oh, where she like stops suddenly for no reason and
then backs up, and then backsup between your legs and if
you're not prepared for it, youjust trip over her.
Yeah, yeah, she does that lots.
After about 20 minutes she'snormal, but the first 20 minutes
she's it's like having a purechaos on a leash yeah, but we
(09:51):
love her yeah so there you go.
Keep your, keep your angle under13 degrees and you'll get
places faster.
That's our first sciencearticle for this week.
Our second science news item isall about a squirrel inspired
jumping robot.
We have not had a lot of luckgetting Norbert on the trail cam
(10:13):
lately and we're gettingworried, but that's.
This is not about Norbert.
The last thing on the trail camfor the last month has been a
squirrel.
For the last month has been asquirrel doing parkour on the
snow, like jumping up andgetting seeds from weeds or
running down the tree andjumping everywhere.
They're super cute and superagile.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
And you know which one of our dogs hates squirrels
the most?
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Bunsen, but it's chipmunks.
Oh, that's right.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Bunsen hates chipmunks Because they natter at
him.
Yeah, when he was little, Itook him on a hike in the
mountains.
You were skiing with Adam and achipmunk threw crap at him and,
oh, he's hated chipmunks eversince.
He does not like chipmunks andhe does not like squirrels.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
But Beaker is super cute because she can triangulate
the squirrel in the tree whenwe're on walks and they're up in
the tree.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
If I let her, she could probably catch a squirrel.
She's smart, they're fast, butthey don't have a Beaker brain.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
No, she has a Beaker brain, that's for sure.
Can you tell me a little bitmore about the squirrel inspired
robot?
Speaker 1 (11:25):
a little bit more about the squirrel inspired
robot.
I've talked about squirrelsbefore on the science podcast
and they it's hard to reallyunderstand unless you look at
the math of how they move.
And the agility of squirrelsborders on precognition.
The squirrel can do advancedphysics.
Obviously it's not crunchingnumbers in its head, but it
(11:46):
knows how far it can jump and itknows as it runs on a branch
how much spring the branch willhave and when they land how much
spring the other branch willget, because it allows them to
do those death defying leapsfrom tree to tree.
And obviously we've createdrobots that mimic lots of
different types of moving.
There's like weird crawlingrobots, I've seen a few swimming
(12:09):
robots, we have flying oneslike drones and of course the
Atlas robot and the Flint, likethe little dog robot at Spark.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
It's cute.
Yeah, it's so cute.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
But, definitely not parkouring around the science
center cute but definitely notparkouring around the science
center.
No, in fact, like boston,dynamics has a good clip video I
show the kids of their robotsjust eating crap over and over
again as they got better likefrom.
They walk and they fall over.
They just eat it.
And so biologists and engineersat uc berkeley are using
(12:43):
squirrel biomechanics to build arobot that can jump like a
squirrel.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
But the key to the hopping robot is that it can
stick the landing on a narrowperch, so they were able to
(13:14):
create agile robots and agilerobots could land on the flat
ground but not on the perch.
Then those agile robots arecapable of navigating areas like
construction sites or forestcanopies and also disaster zones
.
So, looking inside like brokenwalls and inside the plumbing,
(13:38):
maybe for people who are trappedunderneath.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Yeah, most of those robots that move around.
They are really limited withhow they can move based on the
ground, and if they have to jumpover a thing, most can't do it.
That's not what I'm built for,like R2-D2, right?
Do you remember R2-D2 from StarWars?
Speaker 2 (14:03):
I do.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Yeah, so the original movies, r2-d2 couldn't do much
of anything.
He could go up and down stairs,like they showed how he could
do that, but if he had to jump,I was always like, oh, he's
screwed, he can't do anything.
And then the prequels camealong and they gave R2-D2 like
rocket jets so he could just fly.
And they gave R2-D2 like rocketjets so he could just fly.
And I was like, oh okay, I seethey just kind of retconned his
(14:27):
ability to jump over gaps andthings like that.
All right, so if you're goingto build a robot to work like a
squirrel, chris, what does ithave to be able to do?
What do squirrels have goingfor them?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Okay, squirrels are like the most agile mammal, they
absorb 86% of their landingenergy with their front legs.
So basically they're doingfront handstands and they use
their foot pads to grasp andtwist, which manages torque to
avoid over or under shooting.
And this is so important.
(15:02):
They're adjusting of thebraking force mid-landing.
They can correct for imbalances, so if they're undershooting
they reduce the braking force,which allows their inertia to
swing them up, and if they're onan overshooting trajectory they
increase their braking force toslow momentum.
And, unlike monkeys, they don'thave that articulated thumb, so
(15:27):
they just basically land ontheir pad, which allows them,
like, surprisingly, they don'thave to grasp and then ungrasp,
they just use the pad tomaneuver.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
And that's where the robot comes in.
So the robot used in the studyto mimic squirrel movement is
called SALTO.
That's cute and that's anacronym, of course, for
Saltatorial Agile Locomotion onTerrain Obstacles.
But they've been proving itever since, and this is where
(16:04):
our story picks up.
So Salto was redesigned tomodulate leg force on landing.
So it's previously not possible.
That's like, of course, whatyou mentioned, chris, the
absorption of the jump right.
So it doesn't like just landhard, torque breaking, similar
to how squirrels use their legsdespite no gripping ability,
(16:26):
because Salto doesn't havelittle cute squirrel hands.
They were able to get Salto toland upright on a branch
multiple times and they usedreaction wheels and torque
control so it didn't tip over.
They literally got this littlehoppy robot to hop from a stable
ground onto a branch, which iscrazy.
(16:46):
They did give it little grippythings.
They're like little lowfriction passive grippers on its
feet.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
That's amazing.
And so now there's applicationsactually beyond the Earth.
There is a NASA funded projectto build a onelegged robot for
exploring a moon of saturn, andlow gravity on this moon would
allow the robot to hop thelength of a football field in
one jump just a hopping robot on, probably in cell, is in cell,
(17:18):
it is right yeah, it's in cellof us that's funny and we forgot
to mention salto only had oneleg.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
You might wonder why?
Because one leg seems risky,but for jumping it's just way
better for a robot.
They don't have to think abouttwo pistons or two like springs.
You just have all your powerinto a single leg for a big old
jump and then if it's around youjust have to hop around on one
foot like a big jump.
(17:47):
But that's what they.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
that's what they found when they watch the
squirrels motion.
So they did stop motionphotography to analyze how the
squirrel does it, and it isbasically a one foot jump.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Yeah, big pogo stick.
All right, very cool.
You should probably YouTubesearch Salto jumping.
It's pretty cute.
It's like a little legged robothopping around and, of course,
if they do send this thing inthe next 20 years like an
advanced version of this to hoparound on Saturn's moons, you
can bet there's going to bevideo footage of that.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
I can't wait to see it.
I'm not great at jumping.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
I'm jealous of Salto's ability to jump.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Jason, when you were in high school, you wanted to do
a dunk, and so you practicedevery day, and then you bought
those jumping shoes.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, I brought these weird platform shoes and I did
plyometrics in them for monthsand guess what I could finally
do?
You could dunk.
I had a straight runaway and Ididn't dribble one out of five
times.
I could dunk a volleyball noproblem In the last, like last
(19:00):
couple of months of my peakphysical abilities in grade 12,
because I could palm the ball.
That was.
The big problem was I had tojump high enough that I could
scoop the ball above my head andthen push it down.
But a volleyball I could palm,and then it was, and then push
it down, but a volleyball Icould palm, and then it was.
I actually could dunk that noproblem, which is wild, because
(19:22):
there's no way I could do thattoday.
No way.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
I think you could.
I think it's just like riding abike.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Yeah, If I practice for another year, I'm no Salto.
That's science news for thisweek.
This week in pet science, we'regoing to go back to the
pandemic Chris.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Oh, I wanted to like forget the pandemic.
I wanted to put it behind us.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
I know you know a lot of people, of course, lost
their jobs and people got realsick and people died and lost
people.
They care about Our family,though.
We did some stuff during thepandemic that I still think
about today.
That was cool, like you andAdam were at home every day and
(20:02):
went into my school to work andteach because our internet
couldn't handle all three of usdoing online stuff at the same
time.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
It absolutely could not.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Yeah, and you got to hang out with the dogs, which I
was jealous about, I think.
Sometimes I took the dogs withme, or a dog with me, and then
we, every night, we would watchlike television as a family.
That was cool.
Or we'd play board games thatwas cool.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
So there are some good things that did come out of
the pandemic and lots ofopportunity for study.
This study investigated whetherpets provided emotional comfort
to children during the COVID-19pandemic, and the focus was
examining the link betweenchildren's attachment to pets
and their perceived comfort fromthose pets, and whether the
(20:44):
link was moderated by thechildren's treatment of animals.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah, and you know what?
That's something that Adammentioned to me the other day is
like he was alone but he haddogs like he.
He had bunsen and beaker.
We didn't have bernoulli atthat time, um, and he got to
hang out with the dogs and theygot to hang out with him, which
was cool.
Um, I remember him he actuallymentioned that the other day
just how much he liked hangingout with the dogs during covid.
(21:10):
But of course, adam is a datapoint of one, so let's get into
what's going on in the study.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
That's right, adam was a research of one, our own
research but what they found isthat there is lots of research
for adult well-being duringCOVID-19, but limited research
exploring the pet's impact orinfluence on children.
What we do know is thatCOVID-19 negatively affected
(21:36):
children's mental health and ithas manifested in anxiety,
depression, sleep issues andbehavioral difficulties.
So one of those triggers orcontributing things was social
isolation, because schools wereclosed and they couldn't hang
out with their friends, and thatincreased children's reliance
(22:01):
on pets for companionship.
And the pet attachment inchildren does have parallels
with human attachment theory,which we have covered on the
podcast.
Pets can offer proximity,security and emotional
regulation pets can offerproximity, security and
emotional regulation.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
So the hypothesis of this study was that higher pet
attachment in children might beassociated with a greater
perceived comfort from petsduring COVID-19.
So if you're more attached toyour pet, that pet will give you
more comfort.
And as we have a data point ofone of Adam, adam is pretty
attached to the dogs.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
He sure is.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
And Beaker especially .
Beaker really likes Adam, notthat Bunsen doesn't, but
Beaker's like super cuddly withAdam, which is cute.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
So cute, but the children's treatment of animals
also moderates that relationshipthe association with greater
perceived comfort from petsduring COVID-19.
685 parents of children aged 5to 18 years old, so 601 were
female, 72 male and some otherspreferred not to say and it was
(23:12):
designed as a cross-sectionalonline survey because this was
taken during the pandemic, sodue to the pandemic restrictions
, they couldn't have people comein and so the recruitment was
through social media platformsand charity networks.
So if you were to be involved,that's how you learned about it.
They used several scales.
(23:35):
They used the pet attachmentscale and the parent report and
they also used the children'streatment of animals
questionnaire and, lastly, theyhad a newly developed scale
called the comfort from petsduring COVID-19 scale that was
developed for this study.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
A couple of key findings probably make sense.
The more pet attachment thatchildren had, the more comfort
that they got from their animalsand children's treatment of
animals significantly moderatedthe attachment comfort link and
this was seen strongest in kidswho had the fewest positive
behaviors towards pets, seenstrongest in kids who had the
(24:18):
fewest positive behaviorstowards pets the kids that had
the lowest positive behaviorstowards pets.
They had way less attachmentand then comfort from said pet.
Girls showed higher petattachment and more positive
treatment of animals than boys,and older kids had higher levels
of attachment and bettertreatment and greater comfort
than younger kids.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Now children with pets other than dogs or cats, so
rabbits or guinea pigs andbirds showed higher levels of
attachment, better treatment andgreater comfort.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Isn't that interesting.
I saw that too that kids withlike rabbits and birds
especially they had the highestlevels of attachment and the
greatest comfort from thoseanimals you wouldn't really
think gave you the same kind ofaffection as a dog or a cat.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
I can tell you right now, but birds are super
affectionate.
They are, unless.
It's named Oshkosh Bogosh andis Duncan's bird and he was evil
, but the turtles didn't showany comfort.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
No, they're not on the list, Chris.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
They're not on the list, but you know what I liked?
I liked watching them swim,that's very relaxing.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Even people with fish .
The fish helps mental healthtoo, just from looking at them.
So the good thing about thisstudy is it's not just adam.
It's a large, diverse samplesize, though definitely skewed
towards girls, and while ithappened so long ago during the
pandemic, as studies do, ittakes a long time to go through
the data and process it and getyour study published.
(25:48):
So, yes, this study literallyjust came out in time for us to
do it on the podcast this weekas parent reported data.
Rather than asking the kids,you might get a little different
response.
Just came out in time for us todo it on the podcast this week.
It's parent-reported data.
Rather than asking the kids,you might get a little different
response if you ask the kids.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
The implications of this study indicate that pets
likely served as emotionalsupports and social companions
during COVID-19 for those kids.
Educational interventions onanimal welfare and empathy may
support both the child and thepet well-being and there is
(26:21):
potential application beyondCOVID-19 to other stressful or
isolating circumstances forchildren, so these skills could
transfer over.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Yeah, like winters in Canada, when it's too cold to
go outside because you might die.
That's a type of isolatingcircumstances.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
It is, and I just burrow down with the dogs.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Yeah, Bernoulli sure is a cuddly guy.
Hey, he likes to cuddle too.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
He did.
I saw you in the bedroom and hewas with you and I was so
jealous.
I was like aw, you're so lucky.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
He finds me and we cuddle together.
He's a cool dog.
All right, that's Pet Sciencefor this week.
That's the end of this week'sshow.
Thanks for coming back weekafter week to listen to the
Science Podcast, and a specialshout out to our top tier
patrons on the Paw Pack Plus.
That's our community thatsupports the show.
We'd love for you to join, anda perk is Chris reads your name
(27:17):
out.
I'd also like to give a warning.
The pre-sales for the Bernoullistuffy probably will be
starting April 2nd, so you'regoing to want to check our
website.
All right, chris, let's hearthose patron names.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Amelia Fettig Rhi, oda Carol Hainel, jennifer
Challen, linnea Janik KarenChronister, vicky Otero, christy
Walker, sarah Bram, wendy,diane Mason and Luke Helen Chin,
elizabeth Bourgeois, marianneMcNally, catherine Jordan,
shelley Smith, laura Steffensen,tracy Leinbach, anne Uchida,
(27:52):
heather Burbach, kelly TracyHalberg, ben Rather, debbie
Anderson, sandy Brimer, maryRader, bianca Hyde, andrew Lin,
brenda Clark, brianne Hawes,peggy McKeel, holly Burge, kathy
Zerker, susan Wagner and LizButton.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
For science, empathy and cuteness.
Hello science enthusiasts.
I'm Jason Zukoski.
And I'm Chris Zukoski, we'rethe pet parents of Bunsen,
beaker, bernoulli and Ginger.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
The science animals on social media.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
If you love science.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
And you love pets.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
You've come to the right spot, so put on your
safety glasses and hold on toyour tail.
This is the science podcast.
Hello everybody and welcomeback to the science podcast.
We hope you're happy andhealthy out there.
This is episode eight of seasonseven.
I apologize for my voice.
After this I woke up and Icould barely talk and I had to
(00:45):
teach all day and Chris and Icould only record it one day, so
you're going to have to dealwith my sick sounding voice.
I feel fine.
That aside, it has snowed allweek.
So for the weather update, it'salmost.
March is almost over and we doget a ton of snow in March, but
it snowed all day and there'scopious amounts of snow and it's
(01:07):
cold.
The creek is freezing up again.
The creek was running, but it'snot froze up again and the
weather and snow was so bad.
The photos out of our capital ofAlberta, Edmonton.
They had to close major roadsbecause it was so bananas like
buses sideways and these arelike people who know how to
(01:28):
drive in the winter with properwinter tires Just wild, Okay.
Well, what's on the show thisweek?
We have two science news itemsthis week.
The first one is about theperfect angle to keep people
walking seamlessly, and thesecond is all about a one-legged
jumping robot Pretty cute InPet Science we look at a really
(01:49):
wholesome study that checked outthe mental health of kids
during the pandemic and how petsmay be helped.
All right, let's get on withthe show.
There's no time like ScienceTime.
This week in Science News,let's talk about walking in
crowded locations.
Chris, you and I are bothteachers.
After a school assembly,getting out of the assembly is
(02:13):
like the most crowded I've everbeen in my entire life.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
That and walking in the hallways at lunchtime or
during a transition from classto class and you're trying to
get to the bathroom because, asa teacher, there's a finite
amount of time that you have togo use the bathroom, so you're
trying to get there quickly butit's like clogged arteries.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yeah, and especially if you're trying to move against
the grain, like good luck afterour after a pep rally at our
school with a thousand kids ormore and everybody's trying to
get to class after the pep rally.
If a kid like left their phonein the bleachers and they're
trying to get back, I'm justfeel so bad for them.
I'm like that's not happening.
That's like swimming upstreambut the stream is moving like 20
(03:02):
times faster than you can move.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yeah, exactly, cause everybody has one agenda and
that's to get out of the gym.
And here you are trying to getinto the gym.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
I've rarely been in places where it's been that busy
in my life, and we've been tosome pretty major cities like
Los Angeles and New York, thoughwhen we were at Times Square
that was pretty crazy busy thatone night.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Yeah, and then we also walked up and down the
strip in Vegas.
That wasn't too bad.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
That wasn't too bad.
There was a lot of people, butit wasn't too bad.
Yeah, and I guess that's whatthis article is about.
Mit instructor Carol Backickand his colleagues were looking
to understand and predict thetransition between two types of
pedestrian flow, where you haveone type of flow, which is like
(03:54):
people walking very organized inlanes, and chaotic flow, where
people are weaving unpredictablyeverywhere.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
So through their research, they're hoping to help
design safer, more efficientpublic spaces by providing the
scientific basis for pedestriantraffic patterns.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
And this was published in Proceedings of the
National Academy of Science.
And here's the scenarioPedestrians are navigating a
busy crosswalk and they'recrossing at various angles and
dodging one another to avoidcollisions.
All of the researchers use somepretty advanced thinking and
techniques like mathematicalmodeling, fluid dynamics,
(04:39):
computer simulations and evencontrolled physical experiments
with people walking around in agym.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
What they were looking at is a concept called
angular spread, and angularspread is defined as the range
of directions that pedestrianstake when they're crossing, and
what they found is if there is asmaller angular spread is, if
(05:07):
there is a smaller angularspread, so people moving in
opposite directions, for example, directly across a sidewalk
that encourages orderly,lane-like flow, whereas a larger
(05:29):
angular spread, where peopleare walking in various
directions.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
So, for an example, an open concourse.
That led to disordered andinefficient flow.
Oh so, like you're funneledinto one direction versus you're
not given a direction, you canwalk wherever you want.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
And so when we were in New York, we definitely
followed the flow of the trafficbecause we didn't know where we
were going and everybody elsereally looked like they did and
they were getting there in ahurry.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Yeah, the sidewalks were fast, but then when we got
to Times Square it was a schmoz.
So that's like the openconcourse versus the smaller
angular spread of lane-like flowon the sidewalks.
And you're right, people werebooking it in New York.
Boy, they've got places to go.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
I noticed everybody was wearing sneakers.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Which was so smart.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
They were dressed up in their suits, but they had
like running shoes on and Ithought, wow, that is smart.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
So you mentioned angular spread.
And here's somethinginteresting their critical
finding in the study was a 13degree threshold.
That was the tipping point.
If the average crossing angleexceeded 13 degrees, so you
could cross more than 13 degreesaway from somebody the
pedestrian flow becamedisordered.
But below this threshold, ifyou're funneled into a zone,
(06:44):
spontaneous lane formation wouldoccur without the need to paint
the ground or have up cones orropes or anything like that.
It's just if the averagecrossing angle was less than 13
degrees, people just formedlanes and they went along their
life in lanes.
But if it was more than that,chaos.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
So how did they find that?
Speaker 1 (07:07):
So they looked at lane formation in previous
studies.
There's like an imbalance inleft versus right turning
behavior.
That's an interesting thing aswell, as when you are queuing up
in a line, humans tend to queueto the left.
So here's a pro tip if you'reat like the movie theater and
you only have a few times to getyour treats and your snacks, if
(07:28):
you go to the far right tillchances are it'll have less
people on it than the left, tillwe're just on average, drawn to
the left, we are more likely toturn to the left, and then of
course, that affects laneformation.
One of their main conclusionscomes from their experiment
where they had people in a gymthey're volunteers and they gave
(07:51):
them hats with barcodes on themthat you would at your UPC code
, you'd scan at the supermarket,and they had barcodes on their
hats so they could be trackedfrom overhead.
And then they were just askedto walk from start to end across
a crosswalk and of course eachtrial started and ended and
created different flow patterns.
(08:12):
And then they used those anglesand they changed the angles
people moved at to determine iforderly flow performed or not.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
So their finding was the mathematical predictions
matched their observedpedestrian behavior.
So they were looking for thatangular spread beyond 13 degrees
which they found led to no laneformation and slower and less
efficient movement.
And so this demonstrated therobustness of lane formation
(08:40):
theory in an actual, imperfect,real life condition formation
theory in an actual, imperfect,real life condition.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
And obviously, if you're a city planner and you're
listening to this or you'rereading that research and you
want your pedestrians to movefrom point A to point B as
quickly as possible, the rule of13 is the golden standard.
So I don't know how many cityplanners or city engineers are
listening and I honestly don'tknow how you funnel people into
a less than 13 degree angle, butthat's how you get people to
book it instead of wanderingaround staring up into the sky,
(09:13):
like I was in New York City.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
That's true.
This made me think of disorder.
When we're walking on a hikingtrail with Beaker.
She has a move.
It's called the the I'm goingto trip you so you fall on your
face.
Move.
She reminds me of a chaoticpedestrian.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
oh, where she like stops suddenly for no reason and
then backs up, and then backsup between your legs and if
you're not prepared for it, youjust trip over her.
Yeah, yeah, she does that lots.
After about 20 minutes she'snormal, but the first 20 minutes
she's it's like having a purechaos on a leash yeah, but we
(09:51):
love her yeah so there you go.
Keep your, keep your angle under13 degrees and you'll get
places faster.
That's our first sciencearticle for this week.
Our second science news item isall about a squirrel inspired
jumping robot.
We have not had a lot of luckgetting Norbert on the trail cam
(10:13):
lately and we're gettingworried, but that's.
This is not about Norbert.
The last thing on the trail camfor the last month has been a
squirrel.
For the last month has been asquirrel doing parkour on the
snow, like jumping up andgetting seeds from weeds or
running down the tree andjumping everywhere.
They're super cute and superagile.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
And you know which one of our dogs hates squirrels
the most?
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Bunsen, but it's chipmunks.
Oh, that's right.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Bunsen hates chipmunks Because they natter at
him.
Yeah, when he was little, Itook him on a hike in the
mountains.
You were skiing with Adam and achipmunk threw crap at him and,
oh, he's hated chipmunks eversince.
He does not like chipmunks andhe does not like squirrels.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
But Beaker is super cute because she can triangulate
the squirrel in the tree whenwe're on walks and they're up in
the tree.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
If I let her, she could probably catch a squirrel.
She's smart, they're fast, butthey don't have a Beaker brain.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
No, she has a Beaker brain, that's for sure.
Can you tell me a little bitmore about the squirrel inspired
robot?
Speaker 1 (11:25):
a little bit more about the squirrel inspired
robot.
I've talked about squirrelsbefore on the science podcast
and they it's hard to reallyunderstand unless you look at
the math of how they move.
And the agility of squirrelsborders on precognition.
The squirrel can do advancedphysics.
Obviously it's not crunchingnumbers in its head, but it
(11:46):
knows how far it can jump and itknows as it runs on a branch
how much spring the branch willhave and when they land how much
spring the other branch willget, because it allows them to
do those death defying leapsfrom tree to tree.
And obviously we've createdrobots that mimic lots of
different types of moving.
There's like weird crawlingrobots, I've seen a few swimming
(12:09):
robots, we have flying oneslike drones and of course the
Atlas robot and the Flint, likethe little dog robot at Spark.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
It's cute.
Yeah, it's so cute.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
But, definitely not parkouring around the science
center cute but definitely notparkouring around the science
center.
No, in fact, like boston,dynamics has a good clip video I
show the kids of their robotsjust eating crap over and over
again as they got better likefrom.
They walk and they fall over.
They just eat it.
And so biologists and engineersat uc berkeley are using
(12:43):
squirrel biomechanics to build arobot that can jump like a
squirrel.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
But the key to the hopping robot is that it can
stick the landing on a narrowperch, so they were able to
(13:14):
create agile robots and agilerobots could land on the flat
ground but not on the perch.
Then those agile robots arecapable of navigating areas like
construction sites or forestcanopies and also disaster zones
.
So, looking inside like brokenwalls and inside the plumbing,
(13:38):
maybe for people who are trappedunderneath.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Yeah, most of those robots that move around.
They are really limited withhow they can move based on the
ground, and if they have to jumpover a thing, most can't do it.
That's not what I'm built for,like R2-D2, right?
Do you remember R2-D2 from StarWars?
Speaker 2 (14:03):
I do.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Yeah, so the original movies, r2-d2 couldn't do much
of anything.
He could go up and down stairs,like they showed how he could
do that, but if he had to jump,I was always like, oh, he's
screwed, he can't do anything.
And then the prequels camealong and they gave R2-D2 like
rocket jets so he could just fly.
And they gave R2-D2 like rocketjets so he could just fly.
And I was like, oh okay, I seethey just kind of retconned his
(14:27):
ability to jump over gaps andthings like that.
All right, so if you're goingto build a robot to work like a
squirrel, chris, what does ithave to be able to do?
What do squirrels have goingfor them?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Okay, squirrels are like the most agile mammal, they
absorb 86% of their landingenergy with their front legs.
So basically they're doingfront handstands and they use
their foot pads to grasp andtwist, which manages torque to
avoid over or under shooting.
And this is so important.
(15:02):
They're adjusting of thebraking force mid-landing.
They can correct for imbalances, so if they're undershooting
they reduce the braking force,which allows their inertia to
swing them up, and if they're onan overshooting trajectory they
increase their braking force toslow momentum.
And, unlike monkeys, they don'thave that articulated thumb, so
(15:27):
they just basically land ontheir pad, which allows them,
like, surprisingly, they don'thave to grasp and then ungrasp,
they just use the pad tomaneuver.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
And that's where the robot comes in.
So the robot used in the studyto mimic squirrel movement is
called SALTO.
That's cute and that's anacronym, of course, for
Saltatorial Agile Locomotion onTerrain Obstacles.
But they've been proving itever since, and this is where
(16:04):
our story picks up.
So Salto was redesigned tomodulate leg force on landing.
So it's previously not possible.
That's like, of course, whatyou mentioned, chris, the
absorption of the jump right.
So it doesn't like just landhard, torque breaking, similar
to how squirrels use their legsdespite no gripping ability,
(16:26):
because Salto doesn't havelittle cute squirrel hands.
They were able to get Salto toland upright on a branch
multiple times and they usedreaction wheels and torque
control so it didn't tip over.
They literally got this littlehoppy robot to hop from a stable
ground onto a branch, which iscrazy.
(16:46):
They did give it little grippythings.
They're like little lowfriction passive grippers on its
feet.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
That's amazing.
And so now there's applicationsactually beyond the Earth.
There is a NASA funded projectto build a onelegged robot for
exploring a moon of saturn, andlow gravity on this moon would
allow the robot to hop thelength of a football field in
one jump just a hopping robot on, probably in cell, is in cell,
(17:18):
it is right yeah, it's in cellof us that's funny and we forgot
to mention salto only had oneleg.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
You might wonder why?
Because one leg seems risky,but for jumping it's just way
better for a robot.
They don't have to think abouttwo pistons or two like springs.
You just have all your powerinto a single leg for a big old
jump and then if it's around youjust have to hop around on one
foot like a big jump.
(17:47):
But that's what they.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
that's what they found when they watch the
squirrels motion.
So they did stop motionphotography to analyze how the
squirrel does it, and it isbasically a one foot jump.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Yeah, big pogo stick.
All right, very cool.
You should probably YouTubesearch Salto jumping.
It's pretty cute.
It's like a little legged robothopping around and, of course,
if they do send this thing inthe next 20 years like an
advanced version of this to hoparound on Saturn's moons, you
can bet there's going to bevideo footage of that.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
I can't wait to see it.
I'm not great at jumping.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
I'm jealous of Salto's ability to jump.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Jason, when you were in high school, you wanted to do
a dunk, and so you practicedevery day, and then you bought
those jumping shoes.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, I brought these weird platform shoes and I did
plyometrics in them for monthsand guess what I could finally
do?
You could dunk.
I had a straight runaway and Ididn't dribble one out of five
times.
I could dunk a volleyball noproblem In the last, like last
(19:00):
couple of months of my peakphysical abilities in grade 12,
because I could palm the ball.
That was.
The big problem was I had tojump high enough that I could
scoop the ball above my head andthen push it down.
But a volleyball I could palm,and then it was, and then push
it down, but a volleyball Icould palm, and then it was.
I actually could dunk that noproblem, which is wild, because
(19:22):
there's no way I could do thattoday.
No way.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
I think you could.
I think it's just like riding abike.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Yeah, If I practice for another year, I'm no Salto.
That's science news for thisweek.
This week in pet science, we'regoing to go back to the
pandemic Chris.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Oh, I wanted to like forget the pandemic.
I wanted to put it behind us.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
I know you know a lot of people, of course, lost
their jobs and people got realsick and people died and lost
people.
They care about Our family,though.
We did some stuff during thepandemic that I still think
about today.
That was cool, like you andAdam were at home every day and
(20:02):
went into my school to work andteach because our internet
couldn't handle all three of usdoing online stuff at the same
time.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
It absolutely could not.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Yeah, and you got to hang out with the dogs, which I
was jealous about, I think.
Sometimes I took the dogs withme, or a dog with me, and then
we, every night, we would watchlike television as a family.
That was cool.
Or we'd play board games thatwas cool.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
So there are some good things that did come out of
the pandemic and lots ofopportunity for study.
This study investigated whetherpets provided emotional comfort
to children during the COVID-19pandemic, and the focus was
examining the link betweenchildren's attachment to pets
and their perceived comfort fromthose pets, and whether the
(20:44):
link was moderated by thechildren's treatment of animals.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah, and you know what?
That's something that Adammentioned to me the other day is
like he was alone but he haddogs like he.
He had bunsen and beaker.
We didn't have bernoulli atthat time, um, and he got to
hang out with the dogs and theygot to hang out with him, which
was cool.
Um, I remember him he actuallymentioned that the other day
just how much he liked hangingout with the dogs during covid.
(21:10):
But of course, adam is a datapoint of one, so let's get into
what's going on in the study.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
That's right, adam was a research of one, our own
research but what they found isthat there is lots of research
for adult well-being duringCOVID-19, but limited research
exploring the pet's impact orinfluence on children.
What we do know is thatCOVID-19 negatively affected
(21:36):
children's mental health and ithas manifested in anxiety,
depression, sleep issues andbehavioral difficulties.
So one of those triggers orcontributing things was social
isolation, because schools wereclosed and they couldn't hang
out with their friends, and thatincreased children's reliance
(22:01):
on pets for companionship.
And the pet attachment inchildren does have parallels
with human attachment theory,which we have covered on the
podcast.
Pets can offer proximity,security and emotional
regulation pets can offerproximity, security and
emotional regulation.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
So the hypothesis of this study was that higher pet
attachment in children might beassociated with a greater
perceived comfort from petsduring COVID-19.
So if you're more attached toyour pet, that pet will give you
more comfort.
And as we have a data point ofone of Adam, adam is pretty
attached to the dogs.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
He sure is.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
And Beaker especially .
Beaker really likes Adam, notthat Bunsen doesn't, but
Beaker's like super cuddly withAdam, which is cute.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
So cute, but the children's treatment of animals
also moderates that relationshipthe association with greater
perceived comfort from petsduring COVID-19.
685 parents of children aged 5to 18 years old, so 601 were
female, 72 male and some otherspreferred not to say and it was
(23:12):
designed as a cross-sectionalonline survey because this was
taken during the pandemic, sodue to the pandemic restrictions
, they couldn't have people comein and so the recruitment was
through social media platformsand charity networks.
So if you were to be involved,that's how you learned about it.
They used several scales.
(23:35):
They used the pet attachmentscale and the parent report and
they also used the children'streatment of animals
questionnaire and, lastly, theyhad a newly developed scale
called the comfort from petsduring COVID-19 scale that was
developed for this study.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
A couple of key findings probably make sense.
The more pet attachment thatchildren had, the more comfort
that they got from their animalsand children's treatment of
animals significantly moderatedthe attachment comfort link and
this was seen strongest in kidswho had the fewest positive
behaviors towards pets, seenstrongest in kids who had the
(24:18):
fewest positive behaviorstowards pets the kids that had
the lowest positive behaviorstowards pets.
They had way less attachmentand then comfort from said pet.
Girls showed higher petattachment and more positive
treatment of animals than boys,and older kids had higher levels
of attachment and bettertreatment and greater comfort
than younger kids.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Now children with pets other than dogs or cats, so
rabbits or guinea pigs andbirds showed higher levels of
attachment, better treatment andgreater comfort.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Isn't that interesting.
I saw that too that kids withlike rabbits and birds
especially they had the highestlevels of attachment and the
greatest comfort from thoseanimals you wouldn't really
think gave you the same kind ofaffection as a dog or a cat.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
I can tell you right now, but birds are super
affectionate.
They are, unless.
It's named Oshkosh Bogosh andis Duncan's bird and he was evil
, but the turtles didn't showany comfort.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
No, they're not on the list, Chris.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
They're not on the list, but you know what I liked?
I liked watching them swim,that's very relaxing.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Even people with fish .
The fish helps mental healthtoo, just from looking at them.
So the good thing about thisstudy is it's not just adam.
It's a large, diverse samplesize, though definitely skewed
towards girls, and while ithappened so long ago during the
pandemic, as studies do, ittakes a long time to go through
the data and process it and getyour study published.
(25:48):
So, yes, this study literallyjust came out in time for us to
do it on the podcast this weekas parent reported data.
Rather than asking the kids,you might get a little different
response.
Just came out in time for us todo it on the podcast this week.
It's parent-reported data.
Rather than asking the kids,you might get a little different
response if you ask the kids.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
The implications of this study indicate that pets
likely served as emotionalsupports and social companions
during COVID-19 for those kids.
Educational interventions onanimal welfare and empathy may
support both the child and thepet well-being and there is
(26:21):
potential application beyondCOVID-19 to other stressful or
isolating circumstances forchildren, so these skills could
transfer over.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Yeah, like winters in Canada, when it's too cold to
go outside because you might die.
That's a type of isolatingcircumstances.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
It is, and I just burrow down with the dogs.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Yeah, Bernoulli sure is a cuddly guy.
Hey, he likes to cuddle too.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
He did.
I saw you in the bedroom and hewas with you and I was so
jealous.
I was like aw, you're so lucky.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
He finds me and we cuddle together.
He's a cool dog.
All right, that's Pet Sciencefor this week.
That's the end of this week'sshow.
Thanks for coming back weekafter week to listen to the
Science Podcast, and a specialshout out to our top tier
patrons on the Paw Pack Plus.
That's our community thatsupports the show.
We'd love for you to join, anda perk is Chris reads your name
(27:17):
out.
I'd also like to give a warning.
The pre-sales for the Bernoullistuffy probably will be
starting April 2nd, so you'regoing to want to check our
website.
All right, chris, let's hearthose patron names.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Amelia Fettig Rhi, oda Carol Hainel, jennifer
Challen, linnea Janik KarenChronister, vicky Otero, christy
Walker, sarah Bram, wendy,diane Mason and Luke Helen Chin,
elizabeth Bourgeois, marianneMcNally, catherine Jordan,
shelley Smith, laura Steffensen,tracy Leinbach, anne Uchida,
(27:52):
heather Burbach, kelly TracyHalberg, ben Rather, debbie
Anderson, sandy Brimer, maryRader, bianca Hyde, andrew Lin,
brenda Clark, brianne Hawes,peggy McKeel, holly Burge, kathy
Zerker, susan Wagner and LizButton.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
For science, empathy and cuteness.
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