Ever wondered how tiny skincare microbeads went from environmental villains to eco-friendly heroes? Discover the science behind their transformation as we unravel the journey of poly B-amino ester, a groundbreaking polymer with medical roots, now set to revolutionize the beauty industry. And just when you think it's all serious science, we sprinkle in some humor with a cheeky shampoo joke to keep things light and lively.
Join us as we explore the extraordinary capabilities of our four-legged friends in the fight against cancer. Meet Bernoulli, along with other talented Labrador Retrievers like Mars, Moon, and Pluto, who are changing the game with their incredible scent-tracking skills, bolstered by AI technology. We're not stopping there—future trials with Beagles are on the horizon. Their unique skills promise to further bridge the gap between technology and nature in a way that's both heartwarming and potentially life-saving.
Finally, dog lovers won't want to miss our chat with Angie Winters, a dog parenting coach with a wealth of knowledge on enhancing our relationship with our furry companions. Angie shares insights from her book, "Don't Train Your Dog," challenging conventional methods and providing practical strategies for managing behaviors like biting and anxiety. This episode is packed with tips and resources aimed at fostering a deeper connection with your dog, ensuring a harmonious household where both humans and canines thrive. Special thanks to our Paw Pack Plus community for being part of this journey with us!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hello science enthusiasts.
My name is Jason Zukowski.
I'm a high school chemistryteacher and a science
communicator, but I'm also thedog dad of Bunsen and Beaker,
the science dogs on social media.
If you love science and youlove pets, you've come to the
right place.
Put on your lab coat, put onyour safety glasses and hold on
(00:28):
to your tail.
This is the Science Podcast.
Hello, welcome back to theScience Podcast.
We hope you're happy andhealthy out there.
This is episode 40 of season sixand the last episode of the
year.
If you've just startedlistening to our show, thank you
, and if you're a longtimelistener, we also appreciate you
listening to our mix of scienceand pets.
(00:49):
You know it's not the broadestniche, that's for sure, but if
you found a home here and you dolisten, we so appreciate it.
All right.
Well, what's on the show forthis week?
The last episode?
Some good news.
Chris and I break down a studyabout degradable microbeads and
in pet science we tie in areally cool thing that Bernoulli
(01:10):
has been taught to do with howdogs can detect cancer with the
help of AI.
The AI part isn't part of whatBernoulli can do, but it's a fun
study anyways.
Our guest in Ask an Expert isauthor and dog parenting coach,
angie Winters.
We get into a really uniqueform of dog training that she
has and we've got links ifyou're looking to pick up the
(01:33):
book that she wrote.
Okay, the bad joke why did theshampoo get in trouble with his
coach?
Well, it kept skippingconditioning class.
That's terrible.
All right on with the show,because there's no time like
Science Time this week inscience news.
(01:54):
A good story to end the yearwith Chris.
It's about degradablemicrobeads.
Now I know in the shower, chris, you have lots of goops for
your hair and your face.
Do any of your goops havemicrobeads in them?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
They do not.
They do not Now.
Once upon a time in Canadamicrobeads were allowed to be
placed into products, but now Ibelieve in Canada those
microbeads are banned.
But I did have what I reallyliked was like a scrub that I
would wash my legs with becauseafter waxing it got rid of the
(02:30):
potential for the ingrown hairs.
So that might be a little bittoo much information for your
podcast listeners, but Idefinitely like the scrubby feel
and it made me feel like myskin was sloughing off and going
to be beautiful after thewaxing.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
So those microbeads were put into a whole bunch of
skincare products as exfoliants.
Those little beads acted likelittle tiny round balls coated
with I don't know sandpaper.
That really helped scrub yourbody nice and clean.
They seemed like a perfectdesign.
But the problem was is they allwent down the drain and as they
(03:11):
looked at those polymers, theynever really biodegraded and
they were really bad forwildlife, they were really bad
for the environment and theystarted to add up and they are
found in our bodies.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Like, yeah, like your body.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Biomagnification, yeah, all of our bodies like,
yeah, like your body, likebiomagnification.
Yeah, all of our bodies, if youexist on earth right now,
probably have microbeads in them, these little tiny pieces of
plastic, and there is there wasconcern that they could.
They're so small, they couldcross the blood brain barrier
and get into your brain.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
All for smooth legs.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
I think skincare products just need to stick with
putting like normally weirdstuff into the goops, like Greek
yogurt and goji berries andwhatever the flavor of the month
is A lot of those shampoos andthe goops.
I feel like they should be likeone squirt for my toast, one
squirt for my face.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
They just they look like you could eat them, but
they don't taste good.
One squirt for your toast.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Yeah, like some of your goops have like goji
berries and Greek yogurt in it.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
They might Sounds like a.
I like very plain products likethe ordinary, which has a
minimal amount of ingredients.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Okay, Maybe it's just the stuff I see when I go
shopping.
This story starts with justsome of the laws that came about
at the end of the 2010s.
27 and 2015 were big years.
Those are the years thegovernment of Canada and the
government in the United Statesbanned microplastics microbeads
(04:49):
in rinse-off personal careproducts, and they were quickly
banned everywhere.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
But, jason, great news there is an introduction of
a degradable microbead and thatmay soon be in a product near
you in those exfoliants and skincleansers.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
So now we're in the realm of chemistry, which is
something I'm a little bit morefamiliar with than some of the
stuff we talk about.
The microbeads are made from apolymer, specifically poly
B-amino ester, and that'ssomething that's already used in
medical applications.
So the idea was takingsomething that does degrade over
time under specificcircumstances, but isn't going
(05:30):
to be a forever chemical.
These little, teeny, tiny beadsare an average of 76
micrometers in diameter.
Now, that's small A meter.
If you shrink it down athousand times, you get a
millimeter, and if you shrink amillimeter down a thousand times
, you get a micrometer.
A micrometer is a million timessmaller than a meter, and for
(05:56):
our Americans that are listening, who are confused by the metric
system, that's one 25,400th ofan inch.
Did I say that right?
Speaker 2 (06:07):
I'm not sure it's a fraction and it is one over
25,400 inches.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
It's so small.
That's a scale of microscopy,because I know you just finished
with your science kids, becauseyou teach science class this
semester talking aboutmicrometers and microscopy.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
We did, and we just continued to practice
conversions, which is alwayssuper fun.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
This comes from MIT and it prevents the formation of
microplastics, because thesebeads degrade into molecules
that are similar to sugars andamino acids, so over time they
break down into things that canfurther be biodegradable.
So the chemical itself to startwith isn't biodegradable, but
it degrades into stuff that is.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
So like a sugar scrub , hooray.
So the testing and breakdownprocess included the microbeads
being boiled in water, and aftertwo hours of being boiled in
water, more than 94% of thepolymer had degraded into
non-toxic molecules.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
And by boiling them.
It's a catalyst to show how theenvironment would affect the
microbeads over time.
Instead of waiting two years tosee what happens, you just wait
two hours Now.
The exciting part is, if youare, if you're all in on
skincare products and you've gotgoops in your shower.
We have some fun performancetests that they ran on this
(07:39):
stuff.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Okay.
So some people think that afoaming cleanser cleans more
than a non-foaming cleanser, andthat's not necessarily true.
But the researchers mixed themicrobeads with Somfop and this
was a way to test theircleansing ability.
So they used pigskin samplesand they wiped 50 times with the
(08:02):
mixture and they found thatremoved 74% of permanent marker
like Sharpie, and that was incomparison to 38% with soap on
its own.
But the beads were even moreeffective against eyeliner,
which is a makeup product thatcan be a little bit difficult to
(08:22):
remove, and the bead mixtureremoved nearly twice as much
after 10 wipes compared to soapalone.
This is super cool.
Though this next part themicrobeads also absorb copper
ions from the water, whichsuggests that they could remove
harmful metals from the skin.
Microplastics are not, andthese microbeads are not banned
(08:46):
in everywhere in the world.
Yeah, that's, true so when youthink about it.
Similar to DDT.
We banned it here in Canada,but it wasn't necessarily banned
everywhere.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
So there you go, Chris.
The study shows that it'spossible to achieve the high
performance of microbeads inyour exfoliant goops and the
sustainability of normal soapthat washes down the drains.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
I think that's important for future innovation
in the skincare industry.
So looking for renewablematerials that don't impact the
environment.
So coming soon to a shower nearyou.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
And if I reflect a little bit about the science
podcast, because we're wrapped,this is the last episode of this
season and we're going to takea break.
Like things have moved towardssustainability with plastics.
They're a big problem.
They're really hard to recycle,but every year little things
change that over time have beena really big thing, Like these
(09:50):
microplastic bead.
Things are awful for theenvironment, but now there's a
potential alternative.
So good news to end the yearwith our science article.
That's science news for thisweek, this week in pet science
bebop boop Kristen Bebop boop.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Is that your robotic AI intelligence voice?
Speaker 1 (10:10):
No, I just have.
I find myself saying bebop boopand some of my students pick up
on it.
Why do you say bebop boop andI'm like it's just like a filler
, instead of saying, or whateverI say, bebop boop, get to work.
Maybe, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
I do it too, Jason, I do it too.
So in my class I say, okay,take out your calculators,
be-ba-boop.
And when they're supposed to becalculating and they're just
waiting for me to be-ba-boop onmy calculator, I'm like, no, you
have to be-ba-boop and get theanswer on your calculator.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Yeah, so I guess it does have to do with doing math
and getting to work, but thisstudy comes from some really fun
.
This study comes from a reallycool trio of dogs that looked at
the ability of dogs to sniffout cancer, augmented with the
power of artificial intelligence.
Now I've been using AI nearlyevery day since ChatGPT came out
(11:11):
and it has made my life so muchmore efficient.
There are bad things with AIand I know, like the AI graphics
, the artists have a problemwith that, but like I've been
using AI to make myself and mylife more efficient, I've been
using AI for good.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
We just had a professional development about
artificial intelligence and howit can effectively help teachers
plan lessons, and a strongcounter argument is like oh,
you're letting AI do all yourwork for you.
No, we're not.
Like we are looking at vettedresources.
And what's the difference aboutlooking at vetted resources and
what's the difference aboutlooking at a teacher's guide?
So that that was an interestingtalk.
(11:50):
And then I looked at a bunch ofdifferent resources that I
could use to make my practicebetter.
But I am concerned about allthe information that is out
there on the internet that itmight be pulling from.
And then you look and yourlesson is has garbled hands,
like how AI makes the hands allgarbly.
So you do have to be careful,definitely because what you put
(12:12):
in, you do get out.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Yeah, that's true.
Now, specifically to the study.
As I mentioned, three dogs wereinvolved in it and you might
say, whoa, that's not a lot ofdogs.
But if you are listening to ourshow, I have broke down how
much training goes into teachingand training dogs to literally
sniff people who have cancer orcancer in samples from people
(12:36):
like sweat or blood or cells,and the dogs but jason, we have
to talk about bernoulli and wehave to talk about how he can
find his leash.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
So this training and this article really reminds me
of what we did actually today at10 am, where we hid Bernoulli's
leash and prior to that Iscented up my hands with his
leash smell and then I went tohim and I held up my hands and
he smelt my hands and then Isaid go find it.
Where's your leash?
(13:09):
Go find it.
And he went over and he foundit underneath the the plastic
container that we had put itunder and his tell Okay, and I'm
not going to say his tell justyet, because then we did the
same thing, but we put itunderneath your coat and he did.
He found it again and his tailis that he lays down.
(13:32):
When he finds it, he lays down.
And the dogs in the study theirtail is that they find the
smell and when they get thesmell they sit right.
It's super amazing and cute.
But, to be honest with you,where the AI comes in is where
(13:52):
the AI and the computer analysiscan look at the body language
cues of the dog to see if it'san accurate sit to say that they
have definitively or probablylocated the smell of the cancer,
whereas I just was so thrilledwhen I said, find your leash,
and Bernoulli went like plottedover and then he laid down and
(14:17):
that's his tell.
But it was super cool actually,also watching him go through the
motion of like when we moved we, when we moved the leash on the
third time and he didn't knowwhere it was.
He went back to the old spotsand then he went back to where
your coat was and it just wasinteresting watching his nose
work, that olfactory center.
(14:37):
He was working really hard andI just thought that just
reminded me as a real lifeexample of what they're trying
to achieve in this study isusing the dogs to find things,
and I just was so proud ofBernoulli, like, I was so proud
of him.
He's such a good boy, it waspretty cool.
It was pretty cool and amazing.
But just to make it, using thecomputer technology and the AI
(15:00):
for good to be able to like hewas finding his leash and
although we can teach him tofind more things, because now he
has the base skill, but justthat we're able to train this in
dogs but then also be able tobetter interpret their body
language and signals Awesome.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Yeah, that's really cool that it ties in directly
like something in our life, tiesin directly to the study.
So just an overview, becauseChristy did a good job leading
up to it and explaining whathappened, the specifics the
three dogs were super sniffers,so they're not finding leashes,
they're finding cancers.
They already have been trainedto find cancer.
Their names are Mars, Moon andPluto Love the space names there
(15:41):
on those dogs.
They were able to find cancerin 94% of the cases and these
cases came from 1,400participants and 261 of those
participants had cancer.
The dogs were able to detectcancer in 245 of those cases.
(16:01):
Where the AI comes in is thedogs were able to detect the
faint owners and their tells asit, but it used the learning of
watching.
The AI had video of the dogsitting in like a very a sit.
That was very assured and wasalso a positive that was fed to
the AI program.
So the AI was able to look athow the dog sit and their
(16:25):
posture and I guess like theirconfidence and weed out maybe
some sits that the dog wasn'tsure about and maybe some sits
that looks like the dog wasn'tsure about, but all the
mechanics were that the dog wasand that increased the rate of
success 94%.
That's wild, hey.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
That is wild and we should explain that for this
study it was laboratoryretrievers and they were trained
to detect the breast, lung andco-rectal, as well as prostate
cancers by sniffing the breathsamples.
And another really cool thingis, like you said, the dogs
(17:08):
correctly identified 94% ofpositive cases, but they also
had a low false positive rate,so 60 out of the 1,048.
And so that method is bothreliable and accurate of how
they were using the dogs toscreen out the different cancers
(17:29):
.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Now normally in some types of cancers, these dogs and
previous studies I've donetheir positive test rates are
upwards of 80%.
So the AI it's not like the AIdid everything, but the AI did
statistically bump up thesuccess.
Does this mean that you have togo breathe on a dog in the
(17:51):
future and have AI determine ifyou've got cancer or not?
I doubt it.
Training dogs to sniff outcancer is an incredibly
complicated process and not alldogs can do it and not all dogs
make the grade.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
So the company is expecting to plan a larger
clinical trial in the UnitedStates and the company is called
Spotted Early and they'reactually transitioning from
using the Labrador retrieversinto beagles because beagles are
smaller and easier to train,Although Mars, Moon, Pluto and
(18:32):
the other Labradors from theinitial study continued to
contribute because their scentdetectors are out of this world.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
This is a great study and it ties into how Bernoulli
has a tell to find his leash.
I'm not sure if Bernoulli hasthe chops to sniff out cancer,
but I think the next step, chris, is for him to sniff out where
we are in the house, and thenmaybe I can go hide in the snow
and he could try to find me.
That'd be fun.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
But you know who he can find really easily, very
quickly, all the time, everytime Ginger.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Yeah, he doesn't need to be trained to find the cat.
He loves that cat.
He finds her every day, much toher chagrin.
She's a very soggy catsometimes.
Sometimes she's pretty soggy.
That's Pet Science for thisweek.
Hello everybody, here's someways you can keep the Science
podcast free.
Number one in our show notessign up to be a member of our
(19:27):
Paw Pack Plus community.
It's an amazing community offolks who love pets and folks
who love science.
We have tons of bonus Bunsenand Beaker content there and we
have live streams every Sundaywith our community.
It's tons of fun.
Also, think about checking outour merch store.
We've got the Bunsen stuffy, thebeaker stuffy and now the
(19:48):
ginger stuffy.
That's right, ginger, thescience cat has a little replica
.
It's adorable.
It's so soft, with the giantfluffy tail, safety glasses and
a lab coat.
And number three if you'relistening to the podcast on any
place that rates podcasts, giveus a great rating and tell your
family and friends to listen too.
Okay, on with the show.
Back to the interviews.
(20:09):
It's time for Ask an Expert onthe Science Podcast, and I have
author and dog parenting coachAngie Winters with me today,
who's also the author of thebook Don't Train your Dog A Pet
Parenting Guide to Teaching GoodBehavior, calming Fear and
Raising Happy Dogs.
Angie, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Thanks for having me.
It's great to have you Quick,quickly.
Where are you calling in from?
Where are you in the world?
Speaker 3 (20:34):
I'm just outside of Columbus Ohio.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Oh, ohio, okay.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Have you lived there your whole life or have you
ping-ponged around the world?
Speaker 3 (20:44):
I've lived a couple places, but just for short
periods of time when I wasyounger.
But I was born here and aroundhere within an hour or two, so
it's mainly been here all mylife.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Say, a tourist wants to come to Ohio, where would you
send them?
Speaker 3 (21:01):
What most people recognize from where I live in
Powell Ohio actually, and it'son the northern side of Columbus
and most people are familiarwith the Muirfield Golf
Tournament that's here, and theColumbus Zoo is right around
here too.
So those are the mainattractions for out-of-town
people.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
I love me a good zoo.
I'll tell you that.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
It's a really.
It's a really very top rated.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
It's a great zoo.
Cool, cool, cool.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
Yeah that's where Jack Hanna did.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
I know Jack, I love Jack, hanna yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
Yeah, he was from the Columbus Zoo.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
So I was wondering if , just to start before we get
into your book, if you couldtalk to us a little bit about
your background.
What's your training andexperience with animals and dogs
?
Speaker 3 (21:37):
I'd say to people that I didn't actually pick.
This picked me and so I endedup doing it.
I've done it for 26 years now.
But when I was young I reallywas obsessed with all animals
and watching their behavior andso I spent most of my time with
animals and but all differentanimals.
And then when I got older and Iactually had two boys, I started
I'd always done dog trainingand I had trained dogs for
(21:59):
television, social media, ads,just the regular, typical
training, and I startedvolunteering and taking the
worst of the worst cases of dogsthat were very broken, were
unadoptable, they had beenthey're considered unfixable,
they had been through everyother trainer, all the vets, all
the medication, every rescuefoster and they just couldn't be
(22:21):
cured.
And so I ended up taking thosebecause I became obsessed with
trying to figure out why thesebehaviors were happening, these
unwanted behaviors, these fearsand this aggression, and why all
these dogs were losing theirhomes or adoptions were not
successful.
So I became maybe not be ableto sleep at night and I became
obsessed with it.
And then I started figuring outmyself and taking video and
(22:43):
taking notes and fast forward 26years and I started putting
together videos and thenultimately this book to teach
parents and educate them aboutdogs, so that every adoption is
successful and there's no dogsbiting kids or anything like
that.
By doing the hardest cases forso many years hundreds of them I
(23:05):
was able to develop my ownsystems and realize that they
were consistently over and overworking.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Man, that is hard work that you did and
commendable to take the dogsthat really nobody wants because
of their behavior and it breaksmy heart when I hear those
stories but like I know my ownfamily, that's not something we
would be able to take in a dogwith those type of issues.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
So thank you for that work.
I appreciate it.
I know I owe almost everythingin my life or that is meaningful
at this point, with any kind ofanimals or anything I owe to
dogs, because there was a periodof time where during this time
where I was raising my boys andbringing these dogs in, it was
hard, because I have to makesure that my dog was safe and
(23:57):
cats were safe and my childrenwere safe.
So when you've got aggressivecases or fearful cases, it can
be very dangerous.
I was sometimes I'd be up for24 hours straight just keeping
watch, but I'm just like aperson who I just can't give up,
and so it's been very hard butit's been the most rewarding
(24:18):
thing.
And ultimately I had very raremedical condition for five years
and basically I had lost mylife.
I was on the last hours of mymy life, which is a very
personal subject, but then atthe very last minute, I was
saved.
I was rushed to Pittsburgh andI had brain surgery by surgeons
I had never met and I woke upcured and alive.
(24:39):
And I know that my work withdogs.
It was very profoundly struckby the fact that my work with
dogs was so different and I hadbeen, the fact that my work with
dogs was so different and I hadbeen doing it so long and I was
obsessed with it and I washaving great results by this
point that I feel that I owethem and I think that's the
reason why I'm here now.
So now I feel like the luckiestperson in the world.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
There are so many people that follow our accounts
on social media that what youjust said resonates so deeply
with them, like not giving up ondogs.
And your book your book don'ttrain your dog looks at training
dogs with that perspective thatyou just you spoke about your
hard one techniques and I waswondering if we could get into
that a little bit.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
Sure, yeah, I.
What my techniques and just thebig picture, Jason, is that I
was just compelled to figurethis out and not being able to
give up.
And so by fixing the worst inthe worst cases over and over by
hundreds, then what people havein their homes now and in their
families, those behaviors arevery simple and easy for me
(25:42):
because I just reverseengineered what it took to cure
these very difficult cases andthen reverse engineer book
conveys, because I've I'mgetting great feedback that it
does is that it's actually wayeasier than most people think to
(26:05):
fix things and they just seemhard because they're trying
these typical dog trainingmentality on them.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
So that's one thing that really struck me with your
book is that one of the tags init, one of the focuses, is
there's typical flaws in dogtraining, like things that don't
necessarily work the best, andquote unquote, typical dog
training.
Could you talk to us a littlebit about that?
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Yes, so that's the main point of the book and the
first couple of chapters are anoverview of that and what our
relationship currently now inour lives is intertwined with
dogs and they're emotionally andintellectually intertwined with
us and they they're brilliantat reading every one of our
facial expressions, our tone ofvoice and our body movements,
(26:51):
and it's been, you know, provenand you've probably seen this
study, but multiple studies havebeen proven that puppies are
actually born looking to us forhelp.
It's not like they learn.
It's not like a dog is born andthen they learn.
Everyone learns to read theirparent or their family's facial
expressions.
They're just born with it.
So basically, we've become partof their DNA over these last
(27:13):
thousands of years.
And the fact that exists, issaying to me I realized that was
the key fact.
That exists, is saying to me Irealized that was the key.
Because they can follow ourfinger pointing, our eye
movements and everything tolocate objects that they would
never be able to find otherwise.
And they just automaticallylook to us for help.
And I give the example of Ilove my cat and I love cats, but
(27:34):
they don't ask us to pull outthe oven so they can get a mouse
behind it, but a tennis ballgoes under the couch.
Oh my God, yeah.
And dogs look to youimmediately and help me.
They just know that we're goingto help them and then we run
over and trip over ourselvestrying to help them.
We're just intertwined withthem in this way, so that makes
them family.
So when you talk about havingthat kind of intellectual and
(27:57):
emotional entanglement withsomething and then you say sit,
treat here, down, treat, it'slike giving them these simpleton
commands which they are smartand they learn for us on most of
it.
But then the wheels really comeoff when people and parents are
led to believe by typical dogtraining either harsh obedience
or just treats and distractionstype of dog training that they
(28:22):
can teach a dog not to chasekids or run out the door or bite
kids or be aggressive towardsother dogs by using this typical
dog training that they justlearned to use a treat to sit
down.
It's basically a glorifiedtrick, so the real teaching
moments are not there.
That's the flaws in typical dogtraining.
It's either following theequation of fear in equals
(28:44):
reaction out, or food in equalsreaction out, and neither one of
those are true teaching moments, that dogs don't truly
understand what we want and whatthe safety rules are and that's
just the big misunderstandingthat happens and it's tragic and
dogs lose their homes and theirlives for that.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
I know you don't want to give away everything in your
book.
I just love, I love dogs somuch and I'm fascinated by dogs
training.
Our little guy Bernoulli he'sour Bernice Mountain Dog puppy.
He's in training right now.
So can I pick your brain aboutjust one thing?
The don't run out of the door.
Sure, what, in your opinion,how would you tackle that?
(29:24):
And again, I know you don'twant to give away everything in
your book.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
Oh no, I'm fine, Believe me, there's plenty in
there and there's even more, Ishould say, on the website.
I actually didn't mention that.
There's a digital companionthat follows on our website,
parentingfordogscom.
That's with a number four.
There's a digital companion tothis book.
So everybody who buys the book,there's a QR code in the
introduction and then theyautomatically have access to.
If they would like to see thesethings that are written about
(29:50):
in the book, or see me workingwith dogs, or see dogs doing it
in real life, in real time, theycan look at the videos that go
along with that chapter.
And then there's also downloadsof the recipes and stuff like
that.
So, to answer your question,it's not as simple as just being
able to go.
You do this one, two, three.
It is because I put it into theform of a recipe, but that is
(30:11):
definitely covered in my book,among other, what I consider to
be life skills, which is don'trun out the door.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Yeah, don't run out the door.
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
You're going to get hit in the street or you're
going to sweep kids legs orknock people out to try to run
out the door.
It's dangerous.
So I teach dogs this recipewhere I would have them.
And it's hard to describe therecipe because first, the first
two chapters are this overviewof why we need to communicate
with dogs this way and how we'reintertwined with them and what
that actually means.
Then the next chapters get downto the nitty gritty of here's
exactly how you teach this,here's how they get them, they
(30:44):
get along with kids, here's howthey don't run out the door.
So, to put it in simple terms,of that with obviously you need
the overview first, and then youuse this communication skill
where I'm talking about themreading our eyes, reading our
hand movements, reading our bodypositions.
I use treats, but it's thecombination of using treats and
when you use them with youractual entanglement with you.
(31:08):
I set up a scenario where you'regoing to actually teach this.
You can't do this and just waituntil somebody comes to the
door.
It's set up to work.
This recipe, it's a simplerecipe, but go to the door and
then at first you have a leashor step on the leash, and then
you bring them to the door andthen you have the door open a
little bit but they can't go out, so you're just standing there.
But the reason why mainly thisworks, jason, I have to tell you
(31:30):
in the very beginning, is it'sbecause you have to be
completely emotionally neutralwhen you're giving these
guidance recipes and when you'reasking dogs to do things.
So I show them with my bodymovements and a couple of
repetitions that no, you have tolook to me and for me to give
you permission to run out thedoor if we want, if we're going
outside now, and then when I gettheir attention and they look
(31:53):
at me, you hold that attentionwhere I tell the body language,
very simple body language, whereyou can teach, use your body to
teach them with a fingerpointing upward, not down at
them, but upward in your eyecontact is telling them no, I
don't want you to do this, thisis not allowed, this is against
the safety rules.
But you got to hold that.
As soon as you get eye contactwith them, you have to hold that
(32:14):
eye contact for one, onethousand one second for it to
sink in, because dogs arelearning in the moment.
They one second for it to sinkin, because dogs are learning in
the moment.
They're only understand whatyou're portraying to them in
that moment.
So you have to seize thatmoment, see behavior beforehand,
jump to the moment, becompletely emotionally neutral,
give the what's not allowedguidance, get their eye contact
and then immediately say buthere's what I can do, but.
(32:37):
And then you show them withhigh tones of voice and
different things.
For example, I don't want youto chase the kids, but here's
what you can do instead.
But it's the steps that youtake are about four steps.
They're not just here.
Look, here's a treat.
You might get a treat at theend of something if you're going
to enhance these feelings, butit's not just here.
Distract them with a treat.
It's me getting eye contactwith them, holding that for one
(32:59):
1000.
And then here's what you can do.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Fascinating.
I love that explanation andthat you call them recipes too.
That's great, because it soundslike you got to practice baking
the recipe before you go forthe cake.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
Yeah, and it's a simple recipe.
And that was the hardest part,right, and it's this is why it's
taken 26 years is I can't justmake it simple.
I need to make it simple and ithas to work really well.
So that's the hardest part.
I could do it all day long, butI had to make it simple enough
and work with chaos of life.
Whether there's kids in theirfamily life, whether it's just
you and your dog, whether you'rein a high rise or whether
(33:36):
you're in a suburbanneighborhood.
The recipe has to work for allof those.
And it has to be simple enoughand easy enough that everybody
can use it in your everyday life, because things get chaotic and
it's not like we're just allsitting around waiting for I'm
going to wait for my dog to havethis behavior and then I'm
going to see what I can do aboutit.
You get empowered when you know, oh, I'm going to do this, I'm
(33:56):
going to set this up, I'm goingto do it, I'm going to be
emotionally neutral and thendogs learn amazingly fast from
that and that's how you can tellthis what I'm teaching works
because you don't take very.
It doesn't take very manyrepetitions.
Sometimes one repetition andtypical dog training is tricks
(34:19):
for treats, sit down or heel orwhatever.
And then you do that multiplethat most typical trainers say
you need to do that repetition50 times and over a three week
period, and so parents don'thave time for that and besides
it doesn't work, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
As soon as something is tough and time consuming,
then the retention and theability to fall through goes
right through the floor.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
Right and then and you have a relationship with
your dogs, right, how smart theyare, right, how they can
understand big picture.
This is not allowed.
This is allowed.
But then they start making upthese subtle communications and
subtle actions that they do.
That is still allowed, iswithin the boundaries that
you've said are still allowed.
They come up with all theseideas themselves.
They're completely capable ofdeveloping self-control, and
(35:02):
that tricks for treats and thatfear based stuff relies on the
mental or the perspective thatdogs cannot develop self-control
and they can.
And so you're taking thishighly intelligent, highly
emotional creature, basicallyborn, to be in our family now,
because they're born with us intheir DNA, and you're treating
(35:24):
them like a simpleton.
Aww.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Aww, I guess we sometimes say Bernoulli the
puppy, he's got a brain full ofmush, but he doesn't.
He's really smart.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
No, he doesn't.
He's really smart?
No, he doesn't.
And it's like when people aretrying typical dog training
which I know why they try itthis has been an uphill stream
for me.
I'm swimming uphill for 26years, or upstream for 26 years,
because this is going againstwhat we've all been taught, what
we've all so ingrained, thistypical dog training mentality,
that it actually goes so faragainst it.
(35:59):
But then, as soon as it clicksand you see it, you're like
everybody says this is what.
Everybody says that's toosimple, it can't, that can't be
that easy.
It was like yes, actually it is.
Because think about when youhave a positive routine of
something that your dog learnsand then say dad gets up and dad
makes coffee and I set thething, but I don't get out of
bed yet until mom gets up.
(36:21):
Or they know the routine ofwhat's happening, and now dad
makes his coffee and then hegives me a treat or a bone.
So they then they want to dothat same routine with the same
stuff you know at the same time,all the time, because it's a
routine like a two-year-old.
It makes them feel safe andthey love to know what they're
fully allowed to do and what'sgoing to happen, love, to know
what they're fully allowed to doand what's going to happen.
(36:42):
So they revel in that and thenyou start seeing their whole
personality come out.
Most people don't even see.
They live with dogs for yearsand you love them, you see the
love, but they don't ever seetheir true capabilities and
personalities.
Because we're telling people touse this dog training and then
when the dogs are all out ofcontrol, then you'll never see
that because you just see themas being out of control.
Yeah, you can't get those.
That can't.
You got to calm it down, keepemotionally neutral and just
(37:04):
follow these recipes forteaching things and
prescriptions for fixing things.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
I love it.
That's exciting.
I'm sure people are takingnotes.
A couple more questions, maybeon a little bit more serious
topic.
Your book talks about like dogsthat nip and bite and that can
become real serious real fastfor some families, right?
I was wondering if we couldpick your brain like what's in
(37:29):
your opinion, what's the rootcause of that for dogs?
Speaker 3 (37:31):
So one of the.
There's a couple root causesfor that.
One of them I talk about in thewhat I call the five big stuff
family rules, that you justconcentrate on learning these
rules and then let all the othersmall stuff go, because these
main rules are what'll keepeverybody safe and happy and
everybody can flourish, and oneof those the second most
important rule is no teeth onhumans ever.
You just already put that outand people say they get that
(37:54):
confused with the rule of noaggression is allowed.
But it's really two differentthings.
And they're not seeing what thedog is seeing and what the dog
is actually doing and learning.
So when they're puppies andyou're playing with them and a
lot of times they're puttingtheir teeth on your hands this
happens a lot with people orthey'll play with them with your
hands on either side of theirmouth.
You're like blah, blah, blahand it's oh, it's fun.
(38:16):
And people say to me oh, weplay this way, he doesn't bite
me very hard and it doesn't hurtand he doesn't really mean it.
So then there's fate growlingand stuff and then but in the
dog's mind he's always been ableto put I've been allowed to put
teeth on human skin there hasto be.
For dogs it has to be a veryblack and white line.
So we're confusing them by oh,you're allowed to put your teeth
(38:36):
on this child's skin or my skinwhen you're playing with our
hands.
But then all of a sudden theyget bigger and stronger and they
start to bite bite because theylearn very quickly.
If I put teeth on human skinthat it's going to make the
human very effective.
A human is either going to goow or stop or pull your hand
back or drop the treat or giveyou.
The kid's going to drop the toyhe had.
They're going to getreinforcement for putting their
(38:59):
teeth on humans.
You think it's a joke and youthink it's cute when they're
little, but really in all dogs'minds it's always that they've
been allowed to put teeth onhumans.
So when you do this black andwhite rule of kids should always
have a toy in their hand whenthey're playing, adults should
always have a toy in their handand toys.
Playing with toys has to betaught sometimes, because dogs
just don't automatically playwith toys that humans make and
(39:23):
traumatized rescue dogs do notplay with toys at all.
That's part of the reason, howyou know how severely they're
traumatized, and so it's veryimportant that they have these
outlets of these toys and it'svery important that the parent
and everybody acts like you, actlike this toy is the best thing
you've ever played with, too,right?
So you just keep on directingthem to these toys and never
allow any teeth to touch yourskin.
(39:43):
And then the second one is themisunderstanding with kids.
There's actually three, becausethis topic kind of has fingers
that go into a lot of differentsubjects of dog parenting.
The ones with kids areeverybody's well-intentioned and
they have to learn that theycannot nip kids as their kids
are running and that this is nota big deal, that kids are
(40:04):
running around.
Of course they're going to beexcited, but you have to
redirect so that they play withtheir toys and that they're
never allowed to run after kidsand nip them.
Because even if you see themstart to open their mouth like
you, give the guidance rightthen.
Ah, step in.
No, don't wait for him to bitehim.
See him, you see him running.
You see him going after thekid's elbow or eyeing the kid's
heel.
Approach things early.
(40:25):
Don't wait for him to bite.
Early guidance is a dogteaching superpower, so you
start to see it earlier andearlier.
But regardless, you have todisagree with it every time any
teeth goes on a human.
But here's what you can do.
You've got to get that onesecond of eye contact.
That's the main difference.
And then, but here's what youcan do, and and super excited
about you playing with thesetoys Then pretty soon, when kids
(40:47):
start running around, they willjust the dogs will be excited
because they want to play.
They'll just run over and gettheir toy and shake it by the
kid or run after the kid.
So you have to be careful too.
And this is a subtle one againwith kids is that when a baby
let's say a baby is just youknow they get past that potted
(41:08):
plant stage where they're justsitting in a car seat or sitting
in a little chair and theystart to crawl.
Then they crawl and they makethese weird noises and
everything.
And the dog was used to thebabysitting and the seed, he's
used to the noises, he's used tothe smell, and then the baby
becomes mobile and startsrunning, crawling around and
then at some point it's going toeither reach for the dog the
baby's going to put a hand out,reach for the dog or fall beside
(41:30):
the dog, and the dog will belike a little concerned, or turn
, like he's going to maybe nip,or and you're of course watching
this because you're aresponsible parent and you're
there.
So you say, you run in and yousay to the baby, you grab the
baby's hand and you're like wegot to be easy with doggies, be
careful.
You know what I mean, becausethe doggy was scared.
But that's really the oppositeof what you should do, because
(41:50):
dogs can only learn by guidancein the moment, right.
So you have to immediately goin and address the dog, which
doesn't seem fair on the surface, but it is.
You go in and say to the dogyou can't even, don't even be
scared, don't be aggressive,don't have that behavior, don't
have that mindset.
Get that contact, but here'swhat you can do, and then have
them play with the toy.
But if you, if the dog sees youin essence correcting the baby,
(42:14):
run in panicked.
First of all, that's the firstthing, instead of being
emotionally neutral and havingyour recipe, You're panicked.
You come into the baby and youaddress the baby while the dog's
still sitting there, scared oraggressive, and watching you
correct the baby and in his mindhe's like, instead of playing
(42:36):
it down and saying no aggression, he's saying yep, I was right
about that.
He's doing the dog equivalentin his mind of yep, I was right
about that.
See, something bad really didhappen to me because mom was
scared for me and she came inand gave this other family
member a correction for it.
So it's the opposite of whatpeople think and that's not how
you protect dogs is to let themgrowl at children.
It's the most devastatingtypical dog training advice
that's ever been conjured up andI've seen oh, to let dogs growl
(43:00):
, so kids know to stay away.
Yep, they say-.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
Oh, that's awful.
Speaker 3 (43:04):
They say don't ever disagree with a growl because
next time it'll become a bite.
And really it's exactly theopposite, and dogs lose their
homes and it's terrible.
And trainers tell people thatand then they leave.
And then I see when the familygets rid of the dog because the
trainer's long gone by then.
So what I'm doing ischallenging these standing.
It's a wake-up call.
The title of the book is awake-up call.
(43:24):
Right, I don't have anythingagainst trainers and most of
them have their hearts in theright place, but they know many
of the things don't work thatthey're doing and they know that
these things are falling shortand they're just turning a blind
eye to it a lot of times, andthat's that I do have a problem
with.
And so this is basically a wakeup call to dog trainers and
(43:46):
parents that what you're seeingout there, and the majority of
the popular stuff you're seeing,is the reason why you're having
such problems.
And so don't lose hope, becausethere really is something else
out there, and it's now.
It's an easily form of a bookcalled Don't Train your Dog out
there and it's now.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
It's an easily form of a book called don't train
your dog.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
Wow, my mind is just blown.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
Yeah, it's it all makes perfect sense, because a
mama pup will correct a baby pupif it gets out of hand right
and you run in and do that to alittle baby.
It's like the dog's also thatthe little baby just got nipped
for being a pain.
Speaker 3 (44:20):
How, how observant they are and how smart they are
and how they're watching yourface and how they're learning
from us.
They're intertwined with us.
And so what they saw was apanicked parent, the baby doing
something wrong, the babygetting a correction for it.
And so the next time now thedog remained scared.
We didn't play down that.
We didn't play down this actionto the dog and guide him into
believing that this is just nobig deal if a baby falls beside
(44:42):
him.
Okay, this is no big deal.
Oh, what's that silly babydoing?
Play it down at the end.
It's got to end on a good note.
It's part of the recipe.
So what's that baby doing?
What's that baby doing?
Get that toy.
We'll play with the toy by thebaby.
So removing the dog from thearea as long as everybody's safe
, removing the dog from the areais the worst thing you can do,
only second worst to coming inand correcting the baby in front
(45:03):
of the dog.
But the dog has to be addressedfirst because he can only learn
in the moment that something ishappening or he's feeling
something.
So he needs that black andwhite guidance first.
You can talk to kids as theygrow up.
You can talk to them at a latertime.
You can talk to them aboutfuture.
You can say here's why I knewthe dog was upset, here's why I
knew it scared him.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
You can teach human children that way, but you can
never teach dogs that way, tellthem an hour later about what's
going on Exactly.
That makes no sense.
You're right, yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:33):
Oh, put them in his crate for a while.
For a time it doesn't work.
That makes things worse.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
They'll forget why they're there and be super
confused.
Speaker 3 (45:42):
Yeah, I'm talking about forgetting within 60
seconds.
It's got to be right on that,you got to get to it.
And so if you do miss givingthis guidance and it's the
action or the behavior is overwith, even for a few seconds,
even 10 seconds, you cannot givethe dog the guidance or
disagree with anything thenbecause he might misunderstand
and not know what you're talkingabout.
It might be like oh, is itbecause I'm standing here on my
bed?
(46:02):
Oh, is it because of the kid?
They won't know why.
That's why I teach exactly howto see when you need to
intervene.
But if you miss that teachingmoment, say you're gone and
you've left the puppy out,wasn't ready to be left out and
he chewed up the couch when youget home they do not know what
you're upset about.
They do not.
Speaker 1 (46:20):
I've heard that yeah.
Speaker 3 (46:22):
They know you're upset and so they're cowering,
because this person that they'reemotionally entangled with is
clearly pissed Really upset andthey don't know why.
Right.
They don't know exactly whythey might be pointing at
something You're like look atthat cushion's chewed.
And of course they look over atthe cushion, they're looking
all around, but they don't knowexactly what you mean.
They just, they just thinkyou're a scary person now, like
(46:45):
they think you're unstablebecause they can't figure out
what it is that you're trulyupset about oh man, that breaks
my heart.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
Yeah, with our, we've done a good job of that with
our puppies.
Right, we've had three, we havethree dogs and with little
Bernoulli, when he he's not solittle anymore, he's huge.
But yeah, that's so critical,right, like when a puppy does
something, you have to deal withit immediately, because if
you're being, if you're notwatching them and they pee, and
(47:11):
then you catch it like a half anhour later they've.
That's so far gone, absolutely,yeah, which?
Speaker 3 (47:17):
is why I've come up.
I came up with the potty potty,perfect potty recipe because it
works in a easily in a two weekperiod, even on the worst of
the worst cases, and because youcontrol these things that you
don't so that you do catch iteach time.
They only run free right afterthey have gone potty and you
leash them with you what likefor 20 minutes after they drink
water and you're cause.
You're constantly theircompanion during this puppy
(47:38):
phase.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (47:39):
Yeah, and so you're watching.
You don't set them up to makethe mistakes.
So then this but they needparents need a recipe, a full,
comprehensive recipe that's easyenough to do, like I said, in
regular life, and that actuallyworks.
And so the potty recipe in thebook does work, and it works.
I've used it on every dog, andjust consistently, since I
finally came up with a fullsystem.
(48:00):
I've used it on every dog andjust consistently since I
finally came up with a fullsystem.
And yeah, if you miss somethingin the moment, you cannot do
anything about it, you just makeplans to catch it earlier next
time.
If it's an interaction with achild and it's over with, you
cannot address it with the dog.
It has to be immediately.
So just make your mental notesto yourself, make your plan for
the recipe and then just make aplan to catch it early next time
(48:23):
, because you cannot communicateto them effectively or have any
teaching moment if it's not inthe moment for dogs.
Speaker 1 (48:28):
Yeah, I love that and it just came to mind.
I was thinking about this theother day.
Puppies are incredible at howfast they learn things.
If you have a toddler like ababy a toddler running around
and you took its diaper off,good luck potty training that
toddler the same rate a dog ispotty trained yeah, it's true,
(48:50):
and it's like the reason whydogs in our modern society
basically remain perpetualtwo-year-olds, in that you've
got to constantly keep them fromhurting themselves.
Speaker 3 (49:00):
Yeah, you have to supervise their play with other
dogs, whatever, and as they getolder, how much you have to
watch or don't have to watch.
It's just like with kids.
But kids will completelyoutgrow that two-year-old
toddler phase and dogs neverwill.
In essence, because we bringthem into our environment.
Lack of a better word.
We trap them inside of ourhouse and we bring them into our
(49:20):
environment.
We lack of a better word.
We trap them inside of ourhouse and we bring them in this
neighborhood and then justexpect that they know how to
navigate this whole thing.
And dogs are clearly very smartand they're very capable.
And what I talk about in thebook is if you were a pack of
dogs and dogs when we wereliving out in the woods all
naked, our dogs would be moreequipped to.
Oh yeah Than us.
(49:41):
They can dig a hole for safety,they can find food, they can
protect themselves.
Wake me up if a coyote's behindme, we won't ever.
A human is completelyvulnerable there, but it's the
opposite, because we bring themhere and our modern society is
like that to them, what it wouldbe to us if we were naked in
the woods.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
Oh, I tell you, it snowed today.
I would not do well without.
I would be cuddling up to ourBernice Mountain dogs for warmth
outside.
Speaker 3 (50:06):
Yeah, they're very capable.
It's just that they're going toremain perpetual two-year-olds
in our lives and in our familiesbecause they, at some point in
the history and then theirevolution, they chose to be with
us.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
Thank God they did.
Speaker 3 (50:21):
I know we're lucky.
We're extremely lucky.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
Can I ask you one more question about your book,
and I think it's one that I'mcurious about.
Your book talks about whereanxiety in dogs may stem from,
and that's what I was wantingyou to get your opinion on.
Speaker 3 (50:43):
Yes, people are.
Most humans are very and youknow I told you that's like
exactly the opposite with givingyou know, with between kids and
the aggression and between kidsand dogs.
Guidance it's the, it's theopposite of what people think
cause their dog to have anxietyand it's because parents are
doing the opposite of what theyshould really be doing.
So they are very susceptible tothat.
(51:03):
All dogs are born with theirown personality and more
sensitive wiring some thanothers.
But the good thing about dogsis and I have my recipes on fear
and anxiety that are in hereI've started prescriptions and
I'm sorry if we're running outof time because I do want to
tell you, like a littleoverviewing thing about fear is
that we have time to take yourtime.
(51:24):
Yeah, I figured out with dealingwith all of these.
I've had such traumatized caseswhere a dog would stand and not
move out of its bed, or standwith its head in a corner 24
hours a day, and so it's.
I've had the really bad casesand so I finally figured out I
couldn't just cure dog fear.
Then I finally figured out thatthere's an unlimited number of
(51:46):
things that dogs can be afraidof or anxious about, but there's
only three truly resultinglevels of fear and anxiety.
So there's either unsure, wherethey have come upon something
and they just don't know what todo about it right then, so that
we need our guidance.
Right then, nope, nope, don'tbe afraid of that.
Or nope, don't know what to doabout it.
Right then, so that we need ourguidance.
Right then, nope, this, nope,don't be afraid of that.
Or nope, don't be aggressive.
Here's what you can do.
It's no big deal.
Play it down.
You can use treats in a scenarioonce they're not afraid of
(52:08):
something.
Then there's regular, justafraid, where they'll still take
treats.
I have a fear thermometer inthere level.
Then you just use, say, yoursymptoms match the afraid level,
which is the there's unsure,afraid and terrified.
(52:28):
So there's a recipe for each.
If your symptoms on thethermometer for your dog match
the afraid one, then you usethis recipe.
It doesn't matter what they'reafraid of, the rest the
prescription will work right.
You only need to know the levelthat they're at for fear.
So in this middle fear one, ifyou end on a good note, you can
then bring in treats.
But in otherwise you cannotintroduce treats.
(52:51):
You cannot introduce things atthe time when dogs are unsure
about something or feelinganxiety.
You have to bring them pastthat with your guidance, your
verbal guidance and youremotionally neutral and your
facial expressions.
Bring them through that.
Your guidance, your verbalguidance and your emotionally
neutral and your facialexpressions.
Bring them through that andthen, when they're not afraid,
then go back and use treats tonot just make them not afraid
but now make them love thatcertain thing that they were
afraid of.
(53:11):
But the number one thing, thereason why anxiety exists in
dogs, is because number onething parents do not understand
how to teach the rules andwhat's not allowed and how to
then fulfill them on the otherside of the equation.
So they need both of thesethings and I tell exactly how to
do that in the book.
But having this what I callfirm but supportive parental
(53:35):
guidance.
Kids need it.
They need to hit this middlelevel where you're firm but
supportive and dogs need it.
They need firm, supportiveguidance.
But how you provide that to adog is exactly different than
you provide that to a child.
So that's where anxiety comes in.
Is that the parents don'tunderstand how to provide this
firm but supportive guidance.
And when dogs understand it andyou're giving them that they
(53:57):
have everything they need,they're fulfilled.
They know that I have a strongparent.
I'm not going to be.
The parent's not going to gooff his rocker all of a sudden
and start hitting me or anything.
It's not going to.
They're not going to yell, buton the other side, they're also
not going to let me hurt anotherfamily member or another family
member hurt me.
That is what makes dogsconfident and not have anxiety.
(54:18):
It's when everybody's likerunning around, there's no rules
and you don't understandexactly how not to teach these
rules, and there's anxiety.
Comes in, then fear, thenaggression.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (54:29):
I love it.
Yeah, it's so good.
Speaker 3 (54:31):
Good, good.
Yeah it's the opposite of whatyou think it is.
Speaker 1 (54:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (54:38):
So really I'm just like sitting here reflecting
it's.
Speaker 1 (54:39):
Thank you for that answer.
Yeah, so really I'm just likesitting here reflecting it's.
Thank you for that answer, yeah.
Speaker 3 (54:43):
Oh, you're welcome.
I thank you for having me ontoo, because I this information
being spread.
I know that with every bookthat gets into anybody's hands,
that I know.
That's how confident I am aboutit, because I've been doing it
for so long and I've dedicatedmy entire life to doing this.
But I know, whoever gets theirhand on this book, I know that's
one dog that's not going tolose his home.
I know that's one kid that'snot going to get hurt.
(55:05):
I know that one dog that'sgoing to be fulfilled and not
anxiety ridden and get to live ahappy life.
I'll talk about this forever toeverybody.
Speaker 1 (55:15):
I wish we had hours to talk, because the amount of
follow-up questions and justyour wealth of knowledge is just
so valuable.
But I think the more importantthing is to ask you where people
can get the book.
Speaker 3 (55:28):
Where can people?
Speaker 1 (55:29):
get your amazing.
Don't Train your Dog.
Speaker 3 (55:32):
Yeah, and I think that one thing that people will
be happy about seeing is thatthe graphics and the recipes
inside are, like I said, they'redownloadable on the digital
companion.
You don't need to get on thewebsite, but when you buy the
book you will see the graphicsand simple graphics and recipes
that you can just so easily read, like a 10 year old child can
read it and understand it.
So it doesn't have to be theparent just trying to learn it
(55:53):
and teach everybody.
So anybody who gets this book,I know they'll be happy with the
simplicity of it, I should say,and it's available at amazoncom
and our website will actuallylead you there too and has the
digital companion and otherresources, and that's
parentingfordogscom.
Both of those are number four.
So on Facebook we're at Angiefor Dogs and Parenting for Dogs
(56:14):
with a number four.
Speaker 1 (56:16):
Okay, parenting with the number four for dogs Gotcha.
Everybody who's listening.
We'll make sure the links arein our show notes.
So whatever podcast platformyou're listening on, just check
our show notes and there'll behyperlinks there.
I just I snuck a peek on AmazonAngie, one of the reviews, five
out of five.
I don't know if you read someof them.
(56:36):
The title is where has thisbeen all my life?
It's very sweet.
Yes, yes, that's very nice.
Where has this been all my life?
Speaker 3 (56:45):
Yeah, and that's the number one thing that dogs, or
that parents say to me.
When they see all this, they'relike how come I haven't seen
this before?
And then the sad part is thenthey immediately followed up
with I wish I'd have known thiswith our other dog.
No tragedies happened withthose other dogs.
It's bittersweet, but I'm gladthat they have it.
Speaker 1 (57:03):
Yeah, we can only go forward and change, change for
the better.
What we didn't know yesterdayand we know now makes us better
in the future.
Speaker 3 (57:11):
So yeah, that's a tool.
Speaker 1 (57:12):
That's a tool in our toolbox.
Yeah, angie, before we close,one of our standard questions is
we?
We challenge all of our gueststo give us a super fact.
It's something that you know.
You're at a party, you gettogether, family gathering and
you tell people.
That blows their mind a bit.
I was wondering if you have asuper fact you could share with
(57:32):
us.
Speaker 3 (57:33):
Actually I do.
I think one of the probably themost popular one I should say,
for lack of a better word, thatpeople just cannot believe it
until they see it with their owneyes is that with the
techniques I'm talking about andthe parenting techniques I'm
talking about.
It's a separate program butit's on the website but I have a
system for rehabilitating feraldogs or dogs that have come
(57:56):
from hoarding situations.
Dogs that cannot be touched byhumans, have never been touched
by humans.
They suffer for months andmonths and people just do not
believe that until they see itwith their own eyes that those
dogs can be rehabilitated and bein a home and be happy in a
week.
Speaker 2 (58:10):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (58:13):
Amazing.
Speaker 3 (58:14):
It's not what dog training can do it, but it is
possible.
So the reason why I picked thatone to say right now was
because that shows you theincredible capacity and
incredible dog mind and spiritthat you know we, I think, as
humans just do not.
We don't have that as muchbecause we don't live in the
moment and when dogs reallytrust us.
(58:35):
They're born to trust us andlook to us, and when we give
them what they want or what theyneed, they will transform in
such a rapid time that it's yourpeople standing there with
their mouths hanging open.
They can't believe it becauseeverything they've ever
experienced with a dog has beenhard and taken a long time, if
ever, but they're miraculous.
Speaker 1 (58:55):
They're so resilient, hey.
Speaker 3 (58:58):
Yes, they're incredible.
They're really an incrediblebeing yeah.
Speaker 1 (59:03):
So, folks, if you've got, if your dog is with you and
I'm sure people that arelistening you love your dog more
than anything do check out thelinks in our in our show notes
for this book and if you want totackle some of the hard cases
or maybe, maybe you're down thatpath that Angie was sounds like
these could help you with thereal tough cases.
(59:23):
If you work in a shelter oryou're looking to rehab some
dogs, can people contact you onsocial media or ask you
questions, angie.
Speaker 3 (59:31):
Sure, yeah, meta is its own challenge.
So I've been Angie for Dogs onthere for so long and so a lot
of people will message me on mypost comments.
I am looking at that.
The rest of the parenting fordogs team is looking for that.
And then Instagram at parentingfor dogs.
It's just getting going onthere with the release of the
book and everything's beingrebranded to the book and any
(59:52):
remarks on there.
Somebody sees and they canactually contact me through the
website parenting for dogscomtoo.
Speaker 1 (59:58):
Nice, We'll have a.
We'll have a couple sociallinks in the show notes as well
for the social media folks.
Angie, this has been a profounddiscussion and the time went by
all too quickly.
Thank you so much for being onour show and just giving our
audience more tools in theirtoolbox to take care of the
(01:00:19):
creatures that we love so much,which are dogs.
Speaker 3 (01:00:21):
Yes, I really appreciate you taking the time
to have me on and, you know,being interested in this subject
and being able to spread someincredible, you know, very
priceless information for peoplewho love dogs, that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (01:00:35):
That's it for this week's show.
Thanks for coming back weekafter week to listen to us.
Thanks to Angie, who talked tous about her book Make sure you
check out the show notes ifyou'd like to take a look at
where you can pick it up.
And we'd also like to give ashout out to the top tier of our
paid community, the Paw PackPlus.
Speaker 2 (01:00:54):
Take it away.
Chris Tracy Domingue, susanWagner, andrew Lin, helen Chin,
tracy Halberg, amy C, jenniferSmathers, laura Stephenson,
holly Birch, brenda Clark, anneUchida, peggy McKeel, terry Adam
, debbie Anderson, sandy Breimer, tracy Leinbaugh, Marianne
(01:01:18):
McNally, fun Lisa, shelley Smith, julie Smith, diane Allen, for
science, empathy and cuteness.
Hello science enthusiasts.
My name is Jason Zukowski.
I'm a high school chemistryteacher and a science
communicator, but I'm also thedog dad of Bunsen and Beaker,
the science dogs on social media.
If you love science and youlove pets, you've come to the
right place.
Put on your lab coat, put onyour safety glasses and hold on
(00:28):
to your tail.
This is the Science Podcast.
Hello, welcome back to theScience Podcast.
We hope you're happy andhealthy out there.
This is episode 40 of season sixand the last episode of the
year.
If you've just startedlistening to our show, thank you
, and if you're a longtimelistener, we also appreciate you
listening to our mix of scienceand pets.
(00:49):
You know it's not the broadestniche, that's for sure, but if
you found a home here and you dolisten, we so appreciate it.
All right.
Well, what's on the show forthis week?
The last episode?
Some good news.
Chris and I break down a studyabout degradable microbeads and
in pet science we tie in areally cool thing that Bernoulli
(01:10):
has been taught to do with howdogs can detect cancer with the
help of AI.
The AI part isn't part of whatBernoulli can do, but it's a fun
study anyways.
Our guest in Ask an Expert isauthor and dog parenting coach,
angie Winters.
We get into a really uniqueform of dog training that she
has and we've got links ifyou're looking to pick up the
(01:33):
book that she wrote.
Okay, the bad joke why did theshampoo get in trouble with his
coach?
Well, it kept skippingconditioning class.
That's terrible.
All right on with the show,because there's no time like
Science Time this week inscience news.
(01:54):
A good story to end the yearwith Chris.
It's about degradablemicrobeads.
Now I know in the shower, chris, you have lots of goops for
your hair and your face.
Do any of your goops havemicrobeads in them?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
They do not.
They do not Now.
Once upon a time in Canadamicrobeads were allowed to be
placed into products, but now Ibelieve in Canada those
microbeads are banned.
But I did have what I reallyliked was like a scrub that I
would wash my legs with becauseafter waxing it got rid of the
(02:30):
potential for the ingrown hairs.
So that might be a little bittoo much information for your
podcast listeners, but Idefinitely like the scrubby feel
and it made me feel like myskin was sloughing off and going
to be beautiful after thewaxing.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
So those microbeads were put into a whole bunch of
skincare products as exfoliants.
Those little beads acted likelittle tiny round balls coated
with I don't know sandpaper.
That really helped scrub yourbody nice and clean.
They seemed like a perfectdesign.
But the problem was is they allwent down the drain and as they
(03:11):
looked at those polymers, theynever really biodegraded and
they were really bad forwildlife, they were really bad
for the environment and theystarted to add up and they are
found in our bodies.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Like, yeah, like your body.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Biomagnification, yeah, all of our bodies like,
yeah, like your body, likebiomagnification.
Yeah, all of our bodies, if youexist on earth right now,
probably have microbeads in them, these little tiny pieces of
plastic, and there is there wasconcern that they could.
They're so small, they couldcross the blood brain barrier
and get into your brain.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
All for smooth legs.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
I think skincare products just need to stick with
putting like normally weirdstuff into the goops, like Greek
yogurt and goji berries andwhatever the flavor of the month
is A lot of those shampoos andthe goops.
I feel like they should be likeone squirt for my toast, one
squirt for my face.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
They just they look like you could eat them, but
they don't taste good.
One squirt for your toast.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Yeah, like some of your goops have like goji
berries and Greek yogurt in it.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
They might Sounds like a.
I like very plain products likethe ordinary, which has a
minimal amount of ingredients.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Okay, Maybe it's just the stuff I see when I go
shopping.
This story starts with justsome of the laws that came about
at the end of the 2010s.
27 and 2015 were big years.
Those are the years thegovernment of Canada and the
government in the United Statesbanned microplastics microbeads
(04:49):
in rinse-off personal careproducts, and they were quickly
banned everywhere.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
But, jason, great news there is an introduction of
a degradable microbead and thatmay soon be in a product near
you in those exfoliants and skincleansers.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
So now we're in the realm of chemistry, which is
something I'm a little bit morefamiliar with than some of the
stuff we talk about.
The microbeads are made from apolymer, specifically poly
B-amino ester, and that'ssomething that's already used in
medical applications.
So the idea was takingsomething that does degrade over
time under specificcircumstances, but isn't going
(05:30):
to be a forever chemical.
These little, teeny, tiny beadsare an average of 76
micrometers in diameter.
Now, that's small A meter.
If you shrink it down athousand times, you get a
millimeter, and if you shrink amillimeter down a thousand times
, you get a micrometer.
A micrometer is a million timessmaller than a meter, and for
(05:56):
our Americans that are listening, who are confused by the metric
system, that's one 25,400th ofan inch.
Did I say that right?
Speaker 2 (06:07):
I'm not sure it's a fraction and it is one over
25,400 inches.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
It's so small.
That's a scale of microscopy,because I know you just finished
with your science kids, becauseyou teach science class this
semester talking aboutmicrometers and microscopy.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
We did, and we just continued to practice
conversions, which is alwayssuper fun.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
This comes from MIT and it prevents the formation of
microplastics, because thesebeads degrade into molecules
that are similar to sugars andamino acids, so over time they
break down into things that canfurther be biodegradable.
So the chemical itself to startwith isn't biodegradable, but
it degrades into stuff that is.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
So like a sugar scrub , hooray.
So the testing and breakdownprocess included the microbeads
being boiled in water, and aftertwo hours of being boiled in
water, more than 94% of thepolymer had degraded into
non-toxic molecules.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
And by boiling them.
It's a catalyst to show how theenvironment would affect the
microbeads over time.
Instead of waiting two years tosee what happens, you just wait
two hours Now.
The exciting part is, if youare, if you're all in on
skincare products and you've gotgoops in your shower.
We have some fun performancetests that they ran on this
(07:39):
stuff.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Okay.
So some people think that afoaming cleanser cleans more
than a non-foaming cleanser, andthat's not necessarily true.
But the researchers mixed themicrobeads with Somfop and this
was a way to test theircleansing ability.
So they used pigskin samplesand they wiped 50 times with the
(08:02):
mixture and they found thatremoved 74% of permanent marker
like Sharpie, and that was incomparison to 38% with soap on
its own.
But the beads were even moreeffective against eyeliner,
which is a makeup product thatcan be a little bit difficult to
(08:22):
remove, and the bead mixtureremoved nearly twice as much
after 10 wipes compared to soapalone.
This is super cool.
Though this next part themicrobeads also absorb copper
ions from the water, whichsuggests that they could remove
harmful metals from the skin.
Microplastics are not, andthese microbeads are not banned
(08:46):
in everywhere in the world.
Yeah, that's, true so when youthink about it.
Similar to DDT.
We banned it here in Canada,but it wasn't necessarily banned
everywhere.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
So there you go, Chris.
The study shows that it'spossible to achieve the high
performance of microbeads inyour exfoliant goops and the
sustainability of normal soapthat washes down the drains.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
I think that's important for future innovation
in the skincare industry.
So looking for renewablematerials that don't impact the
environment.
So coming soon to a shower nearyou.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
And if I reflect a little bit about the science
podcast, because we're wrapped,this is the last episode of this
season and we're going to takea break.
Like things have moved towardssustainability with plastics.
They're a big problem.
They're really hard to recycle,but every year little things
change that over time have beena really big thing, Like these
(09:50):
microplastic bead.
Things are awful for theenvironment, but now there's a
potential alternative.
So good news to end the yearwith our science article.
That's science news for thisweek, this week in pet science
bebop boop Kristen Bebop boop.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Is that your robotic AI intelligence voice?
Speaker 1 (10:10):
No, I just have.
I find myself saying bebop boopand some of my students pick up
on it.
Why do you say bebop boop andI'm like it's just like a filler
, instead of saying, or whateverI say, bebop boop, get to work.
Maybe, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
I do it too, Jason, I do it too.
So in my class I say, okay,take out your calculators,
be-ba-boop.
And when they're supposed to becalculating and they're just
waiting for me to be-ba-boop onmy calculator, I'm like, no, you
have to be-ba-boop and get theanswer on your calculator.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Yeah, so I guess it does have to do with doing math
and getting to work, but thisstudy comes from some really fun
.
This study comes from a reallycool trio of dogs that looked at
the ability of dogs to sniffout cancer, augmented with the
power of artificial intelligence.
Now I've been using AI nearlyevery day since ChatGPT came out
(11:11):
and it has made my life so muchmore efficient.
There are bad things with AIand I know, like the AI graphics
, the artists have a problemwith that, but like I've been
using AI to make myself and mylife more efficient, I've been
using AI for good.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
We just had a professional development about
artificial intelligence and howit can effectively help teachers
plan lessons, and a strongcounter argument is like oh,
you're letting AI do all yourwork for you.
No, we're not.
Like we are looking at vettedresources.
And what's the difference aboutlooking at vetted resources and
what's the difference aboutlooking at a teacher's guide?
So that that was an interestingtalk.
(11:50):
And then I looked at a bunch ofdifferent resources that I
could use to make my practicebetter.
But I am concerned about allthe information that is out
there on the internet that itmight be pulling from.
And then you look and yourlesson is has garbled hands,
like how AI makes the hands allgarbly.
So you do have to be careful,definitely because what you put
(12:12):
in, you do get out.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Yeah, that's true.
Now, specifically to the study.
As I mentioned, three dogs wereinvolved in it and you might
say, whoa, that's not a lot ofdogs.
But if you are listening to ourshow, I have broke down how
much training goes into teachingand training dogs to literally
sniff people who have cancer orcancer in samples from people
(12:36):
like sweat or blood or cells,and the dogs but jason, we have
to talk about bernoulli and wehave to talk about how he can
find his leash.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
So this training and this article really reminds me
of what we did actually today at10 am, where we hid Bernoulli's
leash and prior to that Iscented up my hands with his
leash smell and then I went tohim and I held up my hands and
he smelt my hands and then Isaid go find it.
Where's your leash?
(13:09):
Go find it.
And he went over and he foundit underneath the the plastic
container that we had put itunder and his tell Okay, and I'm
not going to say his tell justyet, because then we did the
same thing, but we put itunderneath your coat and he did.
He found it again and his tailis that he lays down.
(13:32):
When he finds it, he lays down.
And the dogs in the study theirtail is that they find the
smell and when they get thesmell they sit right.
It's super amazing and cute.
But, to be honest with you,where the AI comes in is where
(13:52):
the AI and the computer analysiscan look at the body language
cues of the dog to see if it'san accurate sit to say that they
have definitively or probablylocated the smell of the cancer,
whereas I just was so thrilledwhen I said, find your leash,
and Bernoulli went like plottedover and then he laid down and
(14:17):
that's his tell.
But it was super cool actually,also watching him go through the
motion of like when we moved we, when we moved the leash on the
third time and he didn't knowwhere it was.
He went back to the old spotsand then he went back to where
your coat was and it just wasinteresting watching his nose
work, that olfactory center.
(14:37):
He was working really hard andI just thought that just
reminded me as a real lifeexample of what they're trying
to achieve in this study isusing the dogs to find things,
and I just was so proud ofBernoulli, like, I was so proud
of him.
He's such a good boy, it waspretty cool.
It was pretty cool and amazing.
But just to make it, using thecomputer technology and the AI
(15:00):
for good to be able to like hewas finding his leash and
although we can teach him tofind more things, because now he
has the base skill, but justthat we're able to train this in
dogs but then also be able tobetter interpret their body
language and signals Awesome.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Yeah, that's really cool that it ties in directly
like something in our life, tiesin directly to the study.
So just an overview, becauseChristy did a good job leading
up to it and explaining whathappened, the specifics the
three dogs were super sniffers,so they're not finding leashes,
they're finding cancers.
They already have been trainedto find cancer.
Their names are Mars, Moon andPluto Love the space names there
(15:41):
on those dogs.
They were able to find cancerin 94% of the cases and these
cases came from 1,400participants and 261 of those
participants had cancer.
The dogs were able to detectcancer in 245 of those cases.
(16:01):
Where the AI comes in is thedogs were able to detect the
faint owners and their tells asit, but it used the learning of
watching.
The AI had video of the dogsitting in like a very a sit.
That was very assured and wasalso a positive that was fed to
the AI program.
So the AI was able to look athow the dog sit and their
(16:25):
posture and I guess like theirconfidence and weed out maybe
some sits that the dog wasn'tsure about and maybe some sits
that looks like the dog wasn'tsure about, but all the
mechanics were that the dog wasand that increased the rate of
success 94%.
That's wild, hey.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
That is wild and we should explain that for this
study it was laboratoryretrievers and they were trained
to detect the breast, lung andco-rectal, as well as prostate
cancers by sniffing the breathsamples.
And another really cool thingis, like you said, the dogs
(17:08):
correctly identified 94% ofpositive cases, but they also
had a low false positive rate,so 60 out of the 1,048.
And so that method is bothreliable and accurate of how
they were using the dogs toscreen out the different cancers
(17:29):
.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Now normally in some types of cancers, these dogs and
previous studies I've donetheir positive test rates are
upwards of 80%.
So the AI it's not like the AIdid everything, but the AI did
statistically bump up thesuccess.
Does this mean that you have togo breathe on a dog in the
(17:51):
future and have AI determine ifyou've got cancer or not?
I doubt it.
Training dogs to sniff outcancer is an incredibly
complicated process and not alldogs can do it and not all dogs
make the grade.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
So the company is expecting to plan a larger
clinical trial in the UnitedStates and the company is called
Spotted Early and they'reactually transitioning from
using the Labrador retrieversinto beagles because beagles are
smaller and easier to train,Although Mars, Moon, Pluto and
(18:32):
the other Labradors from theinitial study continued to
contribute because their scentdetectors are out of this world.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
This is a great study and it ties into how Bernoulli
has a tell to find his leash.
I'm not sure if Bernoulli hasthe chops to sniff out cancer,
but I think the next step, chris, is for him to sniff out where
we are in the house, and thenmaybe I can go hide in the snow
and he could try to find me.
That'd be fun.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
But you know who he can find really easily, very
quickly, all the time, everytime Ginger.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Yeah, he doesn't need to be trained to find the cat.
He loves that cat.
He finds her every day, much toher chagrin.
She's a very soggy catsometimes.
Sometimes she's pretty soggy.
That's Pet Science for thisweek.
Hello everybody, here's someways you can keep the Science
podcast free.
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(19:27):
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(19:48):
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Okay, on with the show.
Back to the interviews.
(20:09):
It's time for Ask an Expert onthe Science Podcast, and I have
author and dog parenting coachAngie Winters with me today,
who's also the author of thebook Don't Train your Dog A Pet
Parenting Guide to Teaching GoodBehavior, calming Fear and
Raising Happy Dogs.
Angie, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Thanks for having me.
It's great to have you Quick,quickly.
Where are you calling in from?
Where are you in the world?
Speaker 3 (20:34):
I'm just outside of Columbus Ohio.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Oh, ohio, okay.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Have you lived there your whole life or have you
ping-ponged around the world?
Speaker 3 (20:44):
I've lived a couple places, but just for short
periods of time when I wasyounger.
But I was born here and aroundhere within an hour or two, so
it's mainly been here all mylife.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Say, a tourist wants to come to Ohio, where would you
send them?
Speaker 3 (21:01):
What most people recognize from where I live in
Powell Ohio actually, and it'son the northern side of Columbus
and most people are familiarwith the Muirfield Golf
Tournament that's here, and theColumbus Zoo is right around
here too.
So those are the mainattractions for out-of-town
people.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
I love me a good zoo.
I'll tell you that.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
It's a really.
It's a really very top rated.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
It's a great zoo.
Cool, cool, cool.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
Yeah that's where Jack Hanna did.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
I know Jack, I love Jack, hanna yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
Yeah, he was from the Columbus Zoo.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
So I was wondering if , just to start before we get
into your book, if you couldtalk to us a little bit about
your background.
What's your training andexperience with animals and dogs
?
Speaker 3 (21:37):
I'd say to people that I didn't actually pick.
This picked me and so I endedup doing it.
I've done it for 26 years now.
But when I was young I reallywas obsessed with all animals
and watching their behavior andso I spent most of my time with
animals and but all differentanimals.
And then when I got older and Iactually had two boys, I started
I'd always done dog trainingand I had trained dogs for
(21:59):
television, social media, ads,just the regular, typical
training, and I startedvolunteering and taking the
worst of the worst cases of dogsthat were very broken, were
unadoptable, they had beenthey're considered unfixable,
they had been through everyother trainer, all the vets, all
the medication, every rescuefoster and they just couldn't be
(22:21):
cured.
And so I ended up taking thosebecause I became obsessed with
trying to figure out why thesebehaviors were happening, these
unwanted behaviors, these fearsand this aggression, and why all
these dogs were losing theirhomes or adoptions were not
successful.
So I became maybe not be ableto sleep at night and I became
obsessed with it.
And then I started figuring outmyself and taking video and
(22:43):
taking notes and fast forward 26years and I started putting
together videos and thenultimately this book to teach
parents and educate them aboutdogs, so that every adoption is
successful and there's no dogsbiting kids or anything like
that.
By doing the hardest cases forso many years hundreds of them I
(23:05):
was able to develop my ownsystems and realize that they
were consistently over and overworking.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Man, that is hard work that you did and
commendable to take the dogsthat really nobody wants because
of their behavior and it breaksmy heart when I hear those
stories but like I know my ownfamily, that's not something we
would be able to take in a dogwith those type of issues.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
So thank you for that work.
I appreciate it.
I know I owe almost everythingin my life or that is meaningful
at this point, with any kind ofanimals or anything I owe to
dogs, because there was a periodof time where during this time
where I was raising my boys andbringing these dogs in, it was
hard, because I have to makesure that my dog was safe and
(23:57):
cats were safe and my childrenwere safe.
So when you've got aggressivecases or fearful cases, it can
be very dangerous.
I was sometimes I'd be up for24 hours straight just keeping
watch, but I'm just like aperson who I just can't give up,
and so it's been very hard butit's been the most rewarding
(24:18):
thing.
And ultimately I had very raremedical condition for five years
and basically I had lost mylife.
I was on the last hours of mymy life, which is a very
personal subject, but then atthe very last minute, I was
saved.
I was rushed to Pittsburgh andI had brain surgery by surgeons
I had never met and I woke upcured and alive.
(24:39):
And I know that my work withdogs.
It was very profoundly struckby the fact that my work with
dogs was so different and I hadbeen, the fact that my work with
dogs was so different and I hadbeen doing it so long and I was
obsessed with it and I washaving great results by this
point that I feel that I owethem and I think that's the
reason why I'm here now.
So now I feel like the luckiestperson in the world.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
There are so many people that follow our accounts
on social media that what youjust said resonates so deeply
with them, like not giving up ondogs.
And your book your book don'ttrain your dog looks at training
dogs with that perspective thatyou just you spoke about your
hard one techniques and I waswondering if we could get into
that a little bit.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
Sure, yeah, I.
What my techniques and just thebig picture, Jason, is that I
was just compelled to figurethis out and not being able to
give up.
And so by fixing the worst inthe worst cases over and over by
hundreds, then what people havein their homes now and in their
families, those behaviors arevery simple and easy for me
(25:42):
because I just reverseengineered what it took to cure
these very difficult cases andthen reverse engineer book
conveys, because I've I'mgetting great feedback that it
does is that it's actually wayeasier than most people think to
(26:05):
fix things and they just seemhard because they're trying
these typical dog trainingmentality on them.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
So that's one thing that really struck me with your
book is that one of the tags init, one of the focuses, is
there's typical flaws in dogtraining, like things that don't
necessarily work the best, andquote unquote, typical dog
training.
Could you talk to us a littlebit about that?
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Yes, so that's the main point of the book and the
first couple of chapters are anoverview of that and what our
relationship currently now inour lives is intertwined with
dogs and they're emotionally andintellectually intertwined with
us and they they're brilliantat reading every one of our
facial expressions, our tone ofvoice and our body movements,
(26:51):
and it's been, you know, provenand you've probably seen this
study, but multiple studies havebeen proven that puppies are
actually born looking to us forhelp.
It's not like they learn.
It's not like a dog is born andthen they learn.
Everyone learns to read theirparent or their family's facial
expressions.
They're just born with it.
So basically, we've become partof their DNA over these last
(27:13):
thousands of years.
And the fact that exists, issaying to me I realized that was
the key fact.
That exists, is saying to me Irealized that was the key.
Because they can follow ourfinger pointing, our eye
movements and everything tolocate objects that they would
never be able to find otherwise.
And they just automaticallylook to us for help.
And I give the example of Ilove my cat and I love cats, but
(27:34):
they don't ask us to pull outthe oven so they can get a mouse
behind it, but a tennis ballgoes under the couch.
Oh my God, yeah.
And dogs look to youimmediately and help me.
They just know that we're goingto help them and then we run
over and trip over ourselvestrying to help them.
We're just intertwined withthem in this way, so that makes
them family.
So when you talk about havingthat kind of intellectual and
(27:57):
emotional entanglement withsomething and then you say sit,
treat here, down, treat, it'slike giving them these simpleton
commands which they are smartand they learn for us on most of
it.
But then the wheels really comeoff when people and parents are
led to believe by typical dogtraining either harsh obedience
or just treats and distractionstype of dog training that they
(28:22):
can teach a dog not to chasekids or run out the door or bite
kids or be aggressive towardsother dogs by using this typical
dog training that they justlearned to use a treat to sit
down.
It's basically a glorifiedtrick, so the real teaching
moments are not there.
That's the flaws in typical dogtraining.
It's either following theequation of fear in equals
(28:44):
reaction out, or food in equalsreaction out, and neither one of
those are true teaching moments, that dogs don't truly
understand what we want and whatthe safety rules are and that's
just the big misunderstandingthat happens and it's tragic and
dogs lose their homes and theirlives for that.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
I know you don't want to give away everything in your
book.
I just love, I love dogs somuch and I'm fascinated by dogs
training.
Our little guy Bernoulli he'sour Bernice Mountain Dog puppy.
He's in training right now.
So can I pick your brain aboutjust one thing?
The don't run out of the door.
Sure, what, in your opinion,how would you tackle that?
(29:24):
And again, I know you don'twant to give away everything in
your book.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
Oh no, I'm fine, Believe me, there's plenty in
there and there's even more, Ishould say, on the website.
I actually didn't mention that.
There's a digital companionthat follows on our website,
parentingfordogscom.
That's with a number four.
There's a digital companion tothis book.
So everybody who buys the book,there's a QR code in the
introduction and then theyautomatically have access to.
If they would like to see thesethings that are written about
(29:50):
in the book, or see me workingwith dogs, or see dogs doing it
in real life, in real time, theycan look at the videos that go
along with that chapter.
And then there's also downloadsof the recipes and stuff like
that.
So, to answer your question,it's not as simple as just being
able to go.
You do this one, two, three.
It is because I put it into theform of a recipe, but that is
(30:11):
definitely covered in my book,among other, what I consider to
be life skills, which is don'trun out the door.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Yeah, don't run out the door.
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
You're going to get hit in the street or you're
going to sweep kids legs orknock people out to try to run
out the door.
It's dangerous.
So I teach dogs this recipewhere I would have them.
And it's hard to describe therecipe because first, the first
two chapters are this overviewof why we need to communicate
with dogs this way and how we'reintertwined with them and what
that actually means.
Then the next chapters get downto the nitty gritty of here's
exactly how you teach this,here's how they get them, they
(30:44):
get along with kids, here's howthey don't run out the door.
So, to put it in simple terms,of that with obviously you need
the overview first, and then youuse this communication skill
where I'm talking about themreading our eyes, reading our
hand movements, reading our bodypositions.
I use treats, but it's thecombination of using treats and
when you use them with youractual entanglement with you.
(31:08):
I set up a scenario where you'regoing to actually teach this.
You can't do this and just waituntil somebody comes to the
door.
It's set up to work.
This recipe, it's a simplerecipe, but go to the door and
then at first you have a leashor step on the leash, and then
you bring them to the door andthen you have the door open a
little bit but they can't go out, so you're just standing there.
But the reason why mainly thisworks, jason, I have to tell you
(31:30):
in the very beginning, is it'sbecause you have to be
completely emotionally neutralwhen you're giving these
guidance recipes and when you'reasking dogs to do things.
So I show them with my bodymovements and a couple of
repetitions that no, you have tolook to me and for me to give
you permission to run out thedoor if we want, if we're going
outside now, and then when I gettheir attention and they look
(31:53):
at me, you hold that attentionwhere I tell the body language,
very simple body language, whereyou can teach, use your body to
teach them with a fingerpointing upward, not down at
them, but upward in your eyecontact is telling them no, I
don't want you to do this, thisis not allowed, this is against
the safety rules.
But you got to hold that.
As soon as you get eye contactwith them, you have to hold that
(32:14):
eye contact for one, onethousand one second for it to
sink in, because dogs arelearning in the moment.
They one second for it to sinkin, because dogs are learning in
the moment.
They're only understand whatyou're portraying to them in
that moment.
So you have to seize thatmoment, see behavior beforehand,
jump to the moment, becompletely emotionally neutral,
give the what's not allowedguidance, get their eye contact
and then immediately say buthere's what I can do, but.
(32:37):
And then you show them withhigh tones of voice and
different things.
For example, I don't want youto chase the kids, but here's
what you can do instead.
But it's the steps that youtake are about four steps.
They're not just here.
Look, here's a treat.
You might get a treat at theend of something if you're going
to enhance these feelings, butit's not just here.
Distract them with a treat.
It's me getting eye contactwith them, holding that for one
(32:59):
1000.
And then here's what you can do.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Fascinating.
I love that explanation andthat you call them recipes too.
That's great, because it soundslike you got to practice baking
the recipe before you go forthe cake.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
Yeah, and it's a simple recipe.
And that was the hardest part,right, and it's this is why it's
taken 26 years is I can't justmake it simple.
I need to make it simple and ithas to work really well.
So that's the hardest part.
I could do it all day long, butI had to make it simple enough
and work with chaos of life.
Whether there's kids in theirfamily life, whether it's just
you and your dog, whether you'rein a high rise or whether
(33:36):
you're in a suburbanneighborhood.
The recipe has to work for allof those.
And it has to be simple enoughand easy enough that everybody
can use it in your everyday life, because things get chaotic and
it's not like we're just allsitting around waiting for I'm
going to wait for my dog to havethis behavior and then I'm
going to see what I can do aboutit.
You get empowered when you know, oh, I'm going to do this, I'm
(33:56):
going to set this up, I'm goingto do it, I'm going to be
emotionally neutral and thendogs learn amazingly fast from
that and that's how you can tellthis what I'm teaching works
because you don't take very.
It doesn't take very manyrepetitions.
Sometimes one repetition andtypical dog training is tricks
(34:19):
for treats, sit down or heel orwhatever.
And then you do that multiplethat most typical trainers say
you need to do that repetition50 times and over a three week
period, and so parents don'thave time for that and besides
it doesn't work, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
As soon as something is tough and time consuming,
then the retention and theability to fall through goes
right through the floor.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
Right and then and you have a relationship with
your dogs, right, how smart theyare, right, how they can
understand big picture.
This is not allowed.
This is allowed.
But then they start making upthese subtle communications and
subtle actions that they do.
That is still allowed, iswithin the boundaries that
you've said are still allowed.
They come up with all theseideas themselves.
They're completely capable ofdeveloping self-control, and
(35:02):
that tricks for treats and thatfear based stuff relies on the
mental or the perspective thatdogs cannot develop self-control
and they can.
And so you're taking thishighly intelligent, highly
emotional creature, basicallyborn, to be in our family now,
because they're born with us intheir DNA, and you're treating
(35:24):
them like a simpleton.
Aww.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Aww, I guess we sometimes say Bernoulli the
puppy, he's got a brain full ofmush, but he doesn't.
He's really smart.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
No, he doesn't.
He's really smart?
No, he doesn't.
And it's like when people aretrying typical dog training
which I know why they try itthis has been an uphill stream
for me.
I'm swimming uphill for 26years, or upstream for 26 years,
because this is going againstwhat we've all been taught, what
we've all so ingrained, thistypical dog training mentality,
that it actually goes so faragainst it.
(35:59):
But then, as soon as it clicksand you see it, you're like
everybody says this is what.
Everybody says that's toosimple, it can't, that can't be
that easy.
It was like yes, actually it is.
Because think about when youhave a positive routine of
something that your dog learnsand then say dad gets up and dad
makes coffee and I set thething, but I don't get out of
bed yet until mom gets up.
(36:21):
Or they know the routine ofwhat's happening, and now dad
makes his coffee and then hegives me a treat or a bone.
So they then they want to dothat same routine with the same
stuff you know at the same time,all the time, because it's a
routine like a two-year-old.
It makes them feel safe andthey love to know what they're
fully allowed to do and what'sgoing to happen, love, to know
what they're fully allowed to doand what's going to happen.
(36:42):
So they revel in that and thenyou start seeing their whole
personality come out.
Most people don't even see.
They live with dogs for yearsand you love them, you see the
love, but they don't ever seetheir true capabilities and
personalities.
Because we're telling people touse this dog training and then
when the dogs are all out ofcontrol, then you'll never see
that because you just see themas being out of control.
Yeah, you can't get those.
That can't.
You got to calm it down, keepemotionally neutral and just
(37:04):
follow these recipes forteaching things and
prescriptions for fixing things.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
I love it.
That's exciting.
I'm sure people are takingnotes.
A couple more questions, maybeon a little bit more serious
topic.
Your book talks about like dogsthat nip and bite and that can
become real serious real fastfor some families, right?
I was wondering if we couldpick your brain like what's in
(37:29):
your opinion, what's the rootcause of that for dogs?
Speaker 3 (37:31):
So one of the.
There's a couple root causesfor that.
One of them I talk about in thewhat I call the five big stuff
family rules, that you justconcentrate on learning these
rules and then let all the othersmall stuff go, because these
main rules are what'll keepeverybody safe and happy and
everybody can flourish, and oneof those the second most
important rule is no teeth onhumans ever.
You just already put that outand people say they get that
(37:54):
confused with the rule of noaggression is allowed.
But it's really two differentthings.
And they're not seeing what thedog is seeing and what the dog
is actually doing and learning.
So when they're puppies andyou're playing with them and a
lot of times they're puttingtheir teeth on your hands this
happens a lot with people orthey'll play with them with your
hands on either side of theirmouth.
You're like blah, blah, blahand it's oh, it's fun.
(38:16):
And people say to me oh, weplay this way, he doesn't bite
me very hard and it doesn't hurtand he doesn't really mean it.
So then there's fate growlingand stuff and then but in the
dog's mind he's always been ableto put I've been allowed to put
teeth on human skin there hasto be.
For dogs it has to be a veryblack and white line.
So we're confusing them by oh,you're allowed to put your teeth
(38:36):
on this child's skin or my skinwhen you're playing with our
hands.
But then all of a sudden theyget bigger and stronger and they
start to bite bite because theylearn very quickly.
If I put teeth on human skinthat it's going to make the
human very effective.
A human is either going to goow or stop or pull your hand
back or drop the treat or giveyou.
The kid's going to drop the toyhe had.
They're going to getreinforcement for putting their
(38:59):
teeth on humans.
You think it's a joke and youthink it's cute when they're
little, but really in all dogs'minds it's always that they've
been allowed to put teeth onhumans.
So when you do this black andwhite rule of kids should always
have a toy in their hand whenthey're playing, adults should
always have a toy in their handand toys.
Playing with toys has to betaught sometimes, because dogs
just don't automatically playwith toys that humans make and
(39:23):
traumatized rescue dogs do notplay with toys at all.
That's part of the reason, howyou know how severely they're
traumatized, and so it's veryimportant that they have these
outlets of these toys and it'svery important that the parent
and everybody acts like you, actlike this toy is the best thing
you've ever played with, too,right?
So you just keep on directingthem to these toys and never
allow any teeth to touch yourskin.
(39:43):
And then the second one is themisunderstanding with kids.
There's actually three, becausethis topic kind of has fingers
that go into a lot of differentsubjects of dog parenting.
The ones with kids areeverybody's well-intentioned and
they have to learn that theycannot nip kids as their kids
are running and that this is nota big deal, that kids are
(40:04):
running around.
Of course they're going to beexcited, but you have to
redirect so that they play withtheir toys and that they're
never allowed to run after kidsand nip them.
Because even if you see themstart to open their mouth like
you, give the guidance rightthen.
Ah, step in.
No, don't wait for him to bitehim.
See him, you see him running.
You see him going after thekid's elbow or eyeing the kid's
heel.
Approach things early.
(40:25):
Don't wait for him to bite.
Early guidance is a dogteaching superpower, so you
start to see it earlier andearlier.
But regardless, you have todisagree with it every time any
teeth goes on a human.
But here's what you can do.
You've got to get that onesecond of eye contact.
That's the main difference.
And then, but here's what youcan do, and and super excited
about you playing with thesetoys Then pretty soon, when kids
(40:47):
start running around, they willjust the dogs will be excited
because they want to play.
They'll just run over and gettheir toy and shake it by the
kid or run after the kid.
So you have to be careful too.
And this is a subtle one againwith kids is that when a baby
let's say a baby is just youknow they get past that potted
(41:08):
plant stage where they're justsitting in a car seat or sitting
in a little chair and theystart to crawl.
Then they crawl and they makethese weird noises and
everything.
And the dog was used to thebabysitting and the seed, he's
used to the noises, he's used tothe smell, and then the baby
becomes mobile and startsrunning, crawling around and
then at some point it's going toeither reach for the dog the
baby's going to put a hand out,reach for the dog or fall beside
(41:30):
the dog, and the dog will belike a little concerned, or turn
, like he's going to maybe nip,or and you're of course watching
this because you're aresponsible parent and you're
there.
So you say, you run in and yousay to the baby, you grab the
baby's hand and you're like wegot to be easy with doggies, be
careful.
You know what I mean, becausethe doggy was scared.
But that's really the oppositeof what you should do, because
(41:50):
dogs can only learn by guidancein the moment, right.
So you have to immediately goin and address the dog, which
doesn't seem fair on the surface, but it is.
You go in and say to the dogyou can't even, don't even be
scared, don't be aggressive,don't have that behavior, don't
have that mindset.
Get that contact, but here'swhat you can do, and then have
them play with the toy.
But if you, if the dog sees youin essence correcting the baby,
(42:14):
run in panicked.
First of all, that's the firstthing, instead of being
emotionally neutral and havingyour recipe, You're panicked.
You come into the baby and youaddress the baby while the dog's
still sitting there, scared oraggressive, and watching you
correct the baby and in his mindhe's like, instead of playing
(42:36):
it down and saying no aggression, he's saying yep, I was right
about that.
He's doing the dog equivalentin his mind of yep, I was right
about that.
See, something bad really didhappen to me because mom was
scared for me and she came inand gave this other family
member a correction for it.
So it's the opposite of whatpeople think and that's not how
you protect dogs is to let themgrowl at children.
It's the most devastatingtypical dog training advice
that's ever been conjured up andI've seen oh, to let dogs growl
(43:00):
, so kids know to stay away.
Yep, they say-.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
Oh, that's awful.
Speaker 3 (43:04):
They say don't ever disagree with a growl because
next time it'll become a bite.
And really it's exactly theopposite, and dogs lose their
homes and it's terrible.
And trainers tell people thatand then they leave.
And then I see when the familygets rid of the dog because the
trainer's long gone by then.
So what I'm doing ischallenging these standing.
It's a wake-up call.
The title of the book is awake-up call.
(43:24):
Right, I don't have anythingagainst trainers and most of
them have their hearts in theright place, but they know many
of the things don't work thatthey're doing and they know that
these things are falling shortand they're just turning a blind
eye to it a lot of times, andthat's that I do have a problem
with.
And so this is basically a wakeup call to dog trainers and
(43:46):
parents that what you're seeingout there, and the majority of
the popular stuff you're seeing,is the reason why you're having
such problems.
And so don't lose hope, becausethere really is something else
out there, and it's now.
It's an easily form of a bookcalled Don't Train your Dog out
there and it's now.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
It's an easily form of a book called don't train
your dog.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
Wow, my mind is just blown.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
Yeah, it's it all makes perfect sense, because a
mama pup will correct a baby pupif it gets out of hand right
and you run in and do that to alittle baby.
It's like the dog's also thatthe little baby just got nipped
for being a pain.
Speaker 3 (44:20):
How, how observant they are and how smart they are
and how they're watching yourface and how they're learning
from us.
They're intertwined with us.
And so what they saw was apanicked parent, the baby doing
something wrong, the babygetting a correction for it.
And so the next time now thedog remained scared.
We didn't play down that.
We didn't play down this actionto the dog and guide him into
believing that this is just nobig deal if a baby falls beside
(44:42):
him.
Okay, this is no big deal.
Oh, what's that silly babydoing?
Play it down at the end.
It's got to end on a good note.
It's part of the recipe.
So what's that baby doing?
What's that baby doing?
Get that toy.
We'll play with the toy by thebaby.
So removing the dog from thearea as long as everybody's safe
, removing the dog from the areais the worst thing you can do,
only second worst to coming inand correcting the baby in front
(45:03):
of the dog.
But the dog has to be addressedfirst because he can only learn
in the moment that something ishappening or he's feeling
something.
So he needs that black andwhite guidance first.
You can talk to kids as theygrow up.
You can talk to them at a latertime.
You can talk to them aboutfuture.
You can say here's why I knewthe dog was upset, here's why I
knew it scared him.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
You can teach human children that way, but you can
never teach dogs that way, tellthem an hour later about what's
going on Exactly.
That makes no sense.
You're right, yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:33):
Oh, put them in his crate for a while.
For a time it doesn't work.
That makes things worse.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
They'll forget why they're there and be super
confused.
Speaker 3 (45:42):
Yeah, I'm talking about forgetting within 60
seconds.
It's got to be right on that,you got to get to it.
And so if you do miss givingthis guidance and it's the
action or the behavior is overwith, even for a few seconds,
even 10 seconds, you cannot givethe dog the guidance or
disagree with anything thenbecause he might misunderstand
and not know what you're talkingabout.
It might be like oh, is itbecause I'm standing here on my
bed?
(46:02):
Oh, is it because of the kid?
They won't know why.
That's why I teach exactly howto see when you need to
intervene.
But if you miss that teachingmoment, say you're gone and
you've left the puppy out,wasn't ready to be left out and
he chewed up the couch when youget home they do not know what
you're upset about.
They do not.
Speaker 1 (46:20):
I've heard that yeah.
Speaker 3 (46:22):
They know you're upset and so they're cowering,
because this person that they'reemotionally entangled with is
clearly pissed Really upset andthey don't know why.
Right.
They don't know exactly whythey might be pointing at
something You're like look atthat cushion's chewed.
And of course they look over atthe cushion, they're looking
all around, but they don't knowexactly what you mean.
They just, they just thinkyou're a scary person now, like
(46:45):
they think you're unstablebecause they can't figure out
what it is that you're trulyupset about oh man, that breaks
my heart.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
Yeah, with our, we've done a good job of that with
our puppies.
Right, we've had three, we havethree dogs and with little
Bernoulli, when he he's not solittle anymore, he's huge.
But yeah, that's so critical,right, like when a puppy does
something, you have to deal withit immediately, because if
you're being, if you're notwatching them and they pee, and
(47:11):
then you catch it like a half anhour later they've.
That's so far gone, absolutely,yeah, which?
Speaker 3 (47:17):
is why I've come up.
I came up with the potty potty,perfect potty recipe because it
works in a easily in a two weekperiod, even on the worst of
the worst cases, and because youcontrol these things that you
don't so that you do catch iteach time.
They only run free right afterthey have gone potty and you
leash them with you what likefor 20 minutes after they drink
water and you're cause.
You're constantly theircompanion during this puppy
(47:38):
phase.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (47:39):
Yeah, and so you're watching.
You don't set them up to makethe mistakes.
So then this but they needparents need a recipe, a full,
comprehensive recipe that's easyenough to do, like I said, in
regular life, and that actuallyworks.
And so the potty recipe in thebook does work, and it works.
I've used it on every dog, andjust consistently, since I
finally came up with a fullsystem.
(48:00):
I've used it on every dog andjust consistently since I
finally came up with a fullsystem.
And yeah, if you miss somethingin the moment, you cannot do
anything about it, you just makeplans to catch it earlier next
time.
If it's an interaction with achild and it's over with, you
cannot address it with the dog.
It has to be immediately.
So just make your mental notesto yourself, make your plan for
the recipe and then just make aplan to catch it early next time
(48:23):
, because you cannot communicateto them effectively or have any
teaching moment if it's not inthe moment for dogs.
Speaker 1 (48:28):
Yeah, I love that and it just came to mind.
I was thinking about this theother day.
Puppies are incredible at howfast they learn things.
If you have a toddler like ababy a toddler running around
and you took its diaper off,good luck potty training that
toddler the same rate a dog ispotty trained yeah, it's true,
(48:50):
and it's like the reason whydogs in our modern society
basically remain perpetualtwo-year-olds, in that you've
got to constantly keep them fromhurting themselves.
Speaker 3 (49:00):
Yeah, you have to supervise their play with other
dogs, whatever, and as they getolder, how much you have to
watch or don't have to watch.
It's just like with kids.
But kids will completelyoutgrow that two-year-old
toddler phase and dogs neverwill.
In essence, because we bringthem into our environment.
Lack of a better word.
We trap them inside of ourhouse and we bring them into our
(49:20):
environment.
We lack of a better word.
We trap them inside of ourhouse and we bring them in this
neighborhood and then justexpect that they know how to
navigate this whole thing.
And dogs are clearly very smartand they're very capable.
And what I talk about in thebook is if you were a pack of
dogs and dogs when we wereliving out in the woods all
naked, our dogs would be moreequipped to.
Oh yeah Than us.
(49:41):
They can dig a hole for safety,they can find food, they can
protect themselves.
Wake me up if a coyote's behindme, we won't ever.
A human is completelyvulnerable there, but it's the
opposite, because we bring themhere and our modern society is
like that to them, what it wouldbe to us if we were naked in
the woods.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
Oh, I tell you, it snowed today.
I would not do well without.
I would be cuddling up to ourBernice Mountain dogs for warmth
outside.
Speaker 3 (50:06):
Yeah, they're very capable.
It's just that they're going toremain perpetual two-year-olds
in our lives and in our familiesbecause they, at some point in
the history and then theirevolution, they chose to be with
us.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
Thank God they did.
Speaker 3 (50:21):
I know we're lucky.
We're extremely lucky.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
Can I ask you one more question about your book,
and I think it's one that I'mcurious about.
Your book talks about whereanxiety in dogs may stem from,
and that's what I was wantingyou to get your opinion on.
Speaker 3 (50:43):
Yes, people are.
Most humans are very and youknow I told you that's like
exactly the opposite with givingyou know, with between kids and
the aggression and between kidsand dogs.
Guidance it's the, it's theopposite of what people think
cause their dog to have anxietyand it's because parents are
doing the opposite of what theyshould really be doing.
So they are very susceptible tothat.
(51:03):
All dogs are born with theirown personality and more
sensitive wiring some thanothers.
But the good thing about dogsis and I have my recipes on fear
and anxiety that are in hereI've started prescriptions and
I'm sorry if we're running outof time because I do want to
tell you, like a littleoverviewing thing about fear is
that we have time to take yourtime.
(51:24):
Yeah, I figured out with dealingwith all of these.
I've had such traumatized caseswhere a dog would stand and not
move out of its bed, or standwith its head in a corner 24
hours a day, and so it's.
I've had the really bad casesand so I finally figured out I
couldn't just cure dog fear.
Then I finally figured out thatthere's an unlimited number of
(51:46):
things that dogs can be afraidof or anxious about, but there's
only three truly resultinglevels of fear and anxiety.
So there's either unsure, wherethey have come upon something
and they just don't know what todo about it right then, so that
we need our guidance.
Right then, nope, nope, don'tbe afraid of that.
Or nope, don't know what to doabout it.
Right then, so that we need ourguidance.
Right then, nope, this, nope,don't be afraid of that.
Or nope, don't be aggressive.
Here's what you can do.
It's no big deal.
Play it down.
You can use treats in a scenarioonce they're not afraid of
(52:08):
something.
Then there's regular, justafraid, where they'll still take
treats.
I have a fear thermometer inthere level.
Then you just use, say, yoursymptoms match the afraid level,
which is the there's unsure,afraid and terrified.
(52:28):
So there's a recipe for each.
If your symptoms on thethermometer for your dog match
the afraid one, then you usethis recipe.
It doesn't matter what they'reafraid of, the rest the
prescription will work right.
You only need to know the levelthat they're at for fear.
So in this middle fear one, ifyou end on a good note, you can
then bring in treats.
But in otherwise you cannotintroduce treats.
(52:51):
You cannot introduce things atthe time when dogs are unsure
about something or feelinganxiety.
You have to bring them pastthat with your guidance, your
verbal guidance and youremotionally neutral and your
facial expressions.
Bring them through that.
Your guidance, your verbalguidance and your emotionally
neutral and your facialexpressions.
Bring them through that andthen, when they're not afraid,
then go back and use treats tonot just make them not afraid
but now make them love thatcertain thing that they were
afraid of.
(53:11):
But the number one thing, thereason why anxiety exists in
dogs, is because number onething parents do not understand
how to teach the rules andwhat's not allowed and how to
then fulfill them on the otherside of the equation.
So they need both of thesethings and I tell exactly how to
do that in the book.
But having this what I callfirm but supportive parental
(53:35):
guidance.
Kids need it.
They need to hit this middlelevel where you're firm but
supportive and dogs need it.
They need firm, supportiveguidance.
But how you provide that to adog is exactly different than
you provide that to a child.
So that's where anxiety comes in.
Is that the parents don'tunderstand how to provide this
firm but supportive guidance.
And when dogs understand it andyou're giving them that they
(53:57):
have everything they need,they're fulfilled.
They know that I have a strongparent.
I'm not going to be.
The parent's not going to gooff his rocker all of a sudden
and start hitting me or anything.
It's not going to.
They're not going to yell, buton the other side, they're also
not going to let me hurt anotherfamily member or another family
member hurt me.
That is what makes dogsconfident and not have anxiety.
(54:18):
It's when everybody's likerunning around, there's no rules
and you don't understandexactly how not to teach these
rules, and there's anxiety.
Comes in, then fear, thenaggression.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (54:29):
I love it.
Yeah, it's so good.
Speaker 3 (54:31):
Good, good.
Yeah it's the opposite of whatyou think it is.
Speaker 1 (54:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (54:38):
So really I'm just like sitting here reflecting
it's.
Speaker 1 (54:39):
Thank you for that answer.
Yeah, so really I'm just likesitting here reflecting it's.
Thank you for that answer, yeah.
Speaker 3 (54:43):
Oh, you're welcome.
I thank you for having me ontoo, because I this information
being spread.
I know that with every bookthat gets into anybody's hands,
that I know.
That's how confident I am aboutit, because I've been doing it
for so long and I've dedicatedmy entire life to doing this.
But I know, whoever gets theirhand on this book, I know that's
one dog that's not going tolose his home.
I know that's one kid that'snot going to get hurt.
(55:05):
I know that one dog that'sgoing to be fulfilled and not
anxiety ridden and get to live ahappy life.
I'll talk about this forever toeverybody.
Speaker 1 (55:15):
I wish we had hours to talk, because the amount of
follow-up questions and justyour wealth of knowledge is just
so valuable.
But I think the more importantthing is to ask you where people
can get the book.
Speaker 3 (55:28):
Where can people?
Speaker 1 (55:29):
get your amazing.
Don't Train your Dog.
Speaker 3 (55:32):
Yeah, and I think that one thing that people will
be happy about seeing is thatthe graphics and the recipes
inside are, like I said, they'redownloadable on the digital
companion.
You don't need to get on thewebsite, but when you buy the
book you will see the graphicsand simple graphics and recipes
that you can just so easily read, like a 10 year old child can
read it and understand it.
So it doesn't have to be theparent just trying to learn it
(55:53):
and teach everybody.
So anybody who gets this book,I know they'll be happy with the
simplicity of it, I should say,and it's available at amazoncom
and our website will actuallylead you there too and has the
digital companion and otherresources, and that's
parentingfordogscom.
Both of those are number four.
So on Facebook we're at Angiefor Dogs and Parenting for Dogs
(56:14):
with a number four.
Speaker 1 (56:16):
Okay, parenting with the number four for dogs Gotcha.
Everybody who's listening.
We'll make sure the links arein our show notes.
So whatever podcast platformyou're listening on, just check
our show notes and there'll behyperlinks there.
I just I snuck a peek on AmazonAngie, one of the reviews, five
out of five.
I don't know if you read someof them.
(56:36):
The title is where has thisbeen all my life?
It's very sweet.
Yes, yes, that's very nice.
Where has this been all my life?
Speaker 3 (56:45):
Yeah, and that's the number one thing that dogs, or
that parents say to me.
When they see all this, they'relike how come I haven't seen
this before?
And then the sad part is thenthey immediately followed up
with I wish I'd have known thiswith our other dog.
No tragedies happened withthose other dogs.
It's bittersweet, but I'm gladthat they have it.
Speaker 1 (57:03):
Yeah, we can only go forward and change, change for
the better.
What we didn't know yesterdayand we know now makes us better
in the future.
Speaker 3 (57:11):
So yeah, that's a tool.
Speaker 1 (57:12):
That's a tool in our toolbox.
Yeah, angie, before we close,one of our standard questions is
we?
We challenge all of our gueststo give us a super fact.
It's something that you know.
You're at a party, you gettogether, family gathering and
you tell people.
That blows their mind a bit.
I was wondering if you have asuper fact you could share with
(57:32):
us.
Speaker 3 (57:33):
Actually I do.
I think one of the probably themost popular one I should say,
for lack of a better word, thatpeople just cannot believe it
until they see it with their owneyes is that with the
techniques I'm talking about andthe parenting techniques I'm
talking about.
It's a separate program butit's on the website but I have a
system for rehabilitating feraldogs or dogs that have come
(57:56):
from hoarding situations.
Dogs that cannot be touched byhumans, have never been touched
by humans.
They suffer for months andmonths and people just do not
believe that until they see itwith their own eyes that those
dogs can be rehabilitated and bein a home and be happy in a
week.
Speaker 2 (58:10):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (58:13):
Amazing.
Speaker 3 (58:14):
It's not what dog training can do it, but it is
possible.
So the reason why I picked thatone to say right now was
because that shows you theincredible capacity and
incredible dog mind and spiritthat you know we, I think, as
humans just do not.
We don't have that as muchbecause we don't live in the
moment and when dogs reallytrust us.
(58:35):
They're born to trust us andlook to us, and when we give
them what they want or what theyneed, they will transform in
such a rapid time that it's yourpeople standing there with
their mouths hanging open.
They can't believe it becauseeverything they've ever
experienced with a dog has beenhard and taken a long time, if
ever, but they're miraculous.
Speaker 1 (58:55):
They're so resilient, hey.
Speaker 3 (58:58):
Yes, they're incredible.
They're really an incrediblebeing yeah.
Speaker 1 (59:03):
So, folks, if you've got, if your dog is with you and
I'm sure people that arelistening you love your dog more
than anything do check out thelinks in our in our show notes
for this book and if you want totackle some of the hard cases
or maybe, maybe you're down thatpath that Angie was sounds like
these could help you with thereal tough cases.
(59:23):
If you work in a shelter oryou're looking to rehab some
dogs, can people contact you onsocial media or ask you
questions, angie.
Speaker 3 (59:31):
Sure, yeah, meta is its own challenge.
So I've been Angie for Dogs onthere for so long and so a lot
of people will message me on mypost comments.
I am looking at that.
The rest of the parenting fordogs team is looking for that.
And then Instagram at parentingfor dogs.
It's just getting going onthere with the release of the
book and everything's beingrebranded to the book and any
(59:52):
remarks on there.
Somebody sees and they canactually contact me through the
website parenting for dogscomtoo.
Speaker 1 (59:58):
Nice, We'll have a.
We'll have a couple sociallinks in the show notes as well
for the social media folks.
Angie, this has been a profounddiscussion and the time went by
all too quickly.
Thank you so much for being onour show and just giving our
audience more tools in theirtoolbox to take care of the
(01:00:19):
creatures that we love so much,which are dogs.
Speaker 3 (01:00:21):
Yes, I really appreciate you taking the time
to have me on and, you know,being interested in this subject
and being able to spread someincredible, you know, very
priceless information for peoplewho love dogs, that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (01:00:35):
That's it for this week's show.
Thanks for coming back weekafter week to listen to us.
Thanks to Angie, who talked tous about her book Make sure you
check out the show notes ifyou'd like to take a look at
where you can pick it up.
And we'd also like to give ashout out to the top tier of our
paid community, the Paw PackPlus.
Speaker 2 (01:00:54):
Take it away.
Chris Tracy Domingue, susanWagner, andrew Lin, helen Chin,
tracy Halberg, amy C, jenniferSmathers, laura Stephenson,
holly Birch, brenda Clark, anneUchida, peggy McKeel, terry Adam
, debbie Anderson, sandy Breimer, tracy Leinbaugh, Marianne
(01:01:18):
McNally, fun Lisa, shelley Smith, julie Smith, diane Allen, for
science, empathy and cuteness.
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