Ross Cornelissen, Master Distiller at 1792 Barton, shares the inside story of one of Kentucky's most historic and authentic whiskey production facilities and reveals how his scientific background shapes their distinct bourbon expressions.
• Starting as a food science student who wanted to make cereal, Ross found his calling in fermentation and distillation
• MGP provided invaluable technical experience working with countless mash bills, fermentation styles, and distillation techniques
• 1792's distinctive flavor profile comes from high-rye mash bills and a proprietary yeast strain producing pronounced banana notes
• Sweet Wheat has developed a cult following as the distillery's only wheated bourbon expression
• Barrel aging locations dramatically affect flavor development with top-tier warehouse positions reaching 130-140 proof
• The historical 1940s distillery focuses purely on production rather than visitor experiences
• Master distilling involves technical expertise, leadership, and constant problem-solving rather than just tasting whiskey
• The Bardstown distilling community features a welcoming, down-to-earth culture despite deep historical roots
• Sazerac's long-term approach allows barrels to age until genuinely ready instead of rushing product to market
• Small batch bourbon creation requires careful barrel selection and blending to maintain consistent flavor profiles
Ross Cornelissen, Master Distiller at 1792 Barton, takes us deep into the heart of authentic Kentucky whiskey production in this fascinating conversation about science, tradition, and the relentless pursuit of quality.
Far from the polished visitor experiences of many distilleries, Barton 1792 represents bourbon-making in its most authentic industrial form. The facility, dating back to 1879, features original equipment from the 1940s alongside modern production methods—all focused on creating exceptional spirits rather than entertaining tourists. As Cornelissen explains, "It's not about show. It's all about making bourbon."
Cornelissen's unexpected journey to master distiller began with dreams of cereal production before a pivotal microbiology course revealed the fascinating world of fermentation. His technical education at MGP provided invaluable experience with countless variations in mash bills and distillation techniques. Now at Barton, he merges scientific precision with deep respect for Kentucky's distilling heritage.
The conversation demystifies several bourbon-making secrets, from 1792's distinctive high-rye mash bill and banana-forward yeast strain to the dramatic effects of barrel positioning within rickhouses. Particularly fascinating is Cornelison's detailed explanation of small batch blending—a process requiring meticulous barrel selection to maintain consistent flavor profiles despite natural variations in aging. The coveted Sweet Wheat expression earns special attention, with Cornelissen confirming their willingness to reduce release sizes rather than compromise on quality.
Beyond production techniques, Cornelissen offers refreshing honesty about what a master distiller's job actually entails. Far from the romanticized image of simply tasting whiskey all day, his role demands technical expertise, leadership skills, and constant problem-solving across every aspect of operations.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Tiny here to tell you about Whiskey Thief Distilling
Company and their newly openedtasting room.
Whether you are up for afarm-to-glass distilling
experience on the Three BoysFarm in Frankfort, kentucky, or
an out-of-this-world tastingexperience in New Luton, you
won't be disappointed At bothlocations.
Their barrel picks all day,every day are like none other.
(00:24):
Each location features stationswith five barrels, each
featuring their pot-distilledbourbons and rye.
Once the barrels have beenthieved and tasted, you can make
a selection and thieve your ownbottle.
A day at Whiskey Thief, withtheir friendly staff and
(00:49):
ownership, will ensure you manygood times with good friends and
family.
Remember to always drinkresponsibly never drink and
(01:15):
drive and live your life, uncutand unfiltered.
(02:02):
Thank you, we'll be right back,all right, all right.
Welcome back to another podcastof the Scotchy Bourbon Boys.
Tiny and Whiskey here from 1792Barton's with Ross, cornelison
Ross.
It's so good to be back.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
It's great to be here , man, with you and with me.
Thanks for having us yeahabsolutely.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
I've been looking forward to this day for so long.
We've been talking back andforth and it's so cool from the
time I met you at the restaurant.
Scotland Scholar a couple yearsago and it's just like to find
(02:42):
out so much about you betweennow and then.
Learned a lot about meeting youfrom the last time we podcast,
but then watching you on stagesand talking about whiskey and
distilling and everything.
And you know well I mean, thisis well kind of you know we were
(03:03):
just talking about it earlierhow young you are.
It's it's kind of unprecedented, as far as you know, coming in,
but as far as them findingtalent, in my opinion it wasn't
even probably too hard of adecision because of who you are
and how you go about doingthings, just to meet you, if
(03:25):
anybody meets you and and it'snot like you're not out there,
you're out there in town, youmeet, you have your families
here, um, it's lots of thingshappening there and you know
everything.
But it still comes back to thisdistillery.
I mean, what's it like now thatyou I mean you definitely have
(03:46):
your feet on the ground and kindof whatever.
But this is, this is historyright here.
This is part of bardstown yepit's been.
You know it's been under othernames, but it's a fantastic
distillery.
Talk about what that's like toyou know, know.
Now be a part of this.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
One.
It's fantastic, so you covereda lot of things there.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Yeah, I do.
I only have one question yeah,with 17 subparts.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
Yeah, yeah it's.
You know, I've been here justshy of three years now and it's
been a really good journey.
You know, you never know quitewhat you're walking into when
you start out at a new place andI was really pleasantly
surprised.
The team that's present andmakes this whiskey happen every
(04:39):
single day is one of the best,and it's people who have started
the last three years.
It's people who have been here20 years or 30 years.
Um, it's just a really strongteam and I think everyone's very
proud of of the products wemake.
Um, and so to kind of be at thehelm of that team is, uh, one,
it's a little daunting, you know, for for many reasons, but two,
(05:01):
um, it's a really, it's areally great feeling.
So, but, yeah, we've, we've,you know my family, we live in
Bardstown and uh, there is, itis a great, great little place
to live, and, uh and Ray andraise a family.
So we've, you know, we didn'treally know anybody when we
moved here, and now we, you knowwe, we, we know quite a few and
(05:25):
uh, it's great to have thatcommunity, both from you know,
the industry, but also justother friends and neighbors that
we, that we've gotten to knowvery well.
So it's been a.
It's been a really good, uhchallenging it, sometimes just
like any anyone's life, but areally good and uh full of
growth three years here atbarton and in Bardstown.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Well, you mentioned the community and how.
Whenever?
you if you haven't been toBardstown.
You have to get here.
But this is the community wherethe Samuels you know, in
downtown they lived right nextdoor to the Beams the Beams
still live here.
They're talking about, you know, families with eight, nine
(06:06):
generations of people that havebeen distilling and then you're
now part of it.
But you would think if you camehere it might be what would you
say?
Overwhelming.
But when you get here yourealize that the bourbon
industry and the people in thatindustry, they're not arrogant,
(06:27):
they're not corporate, they'redown-home, hardworking people.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Very accepting of who comes into their community.
Speaker 4 (06:37):
Yeah, yeah, you really don't know what you're
going to walk into, but again,it's been an absolute pleasure
and it's been a lot of fun.
I was just in colorado for afew days and, uh, I was at a
store and the cashier, you know,he and I, just you know, I like
talking to people.
We just struck up aconversation and he, you know,
and he has family fromlouisville and he and he used to
(06:58):
live in louisville and he'slike he goes people from
kentucky, you know everyone,everyone just stops and talks
and you know, and is friendlyand chats, he goes you can tell
when people are from variousplaces he goes, but people from
Kentucky.
they're always nice and uh andalways are willing to have a
good conversation.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
So I was like, yeah, yeah, he goes, and that's why
I'm from Kentucky too.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
So, even though I'm not from Kentucky, I'm from
Indiana, but uh, that is.
But that has been justsomething that is so great about
Bardstown.
I feel like I've gotten to knowso many people very quickly
just because everyone does stopand talk and you know, you slow
down a little bit when you're inBardstown.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Well, it's so unique.
Bardstown is like a small towncommunity, and then you've got
Louisville, which is the samekind of history, but that's big
city history, yeah.
And then the frankfurtlexington area is like a
combination of the two, a biggercity, and but you know so,
(07:55):
throughout the, you know there's, there's that common bond
throughout that triangle ofdistillers.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
You know, yep, so there's no place like bardstown.
It's a.
It's a wonderful, wonderfultown.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
So I'm glad I'm here so many reasons so I have
nothing but respect for thecompany you work for, sazerac.
Yeah, everything that they howthey've gone about doing things,
uh, even to the point of howthey're not on.
You know they're one company'snot on the bourbon trail because
they want to.
The tours there were free.
(08:27):
You know that kind of thing.
They have a different wayoverall of producing whiskey,
but the whiskey and bourbonsthat they produce are so
fantastic, you know.
The family overall Even theirdistillery in Virginia A Smith
Bowman yeah, I mean the stuffthey're putting out there,
family overall.
Yeah, even their distillery invirginia and the top.
You know the all the foamingyeah yeah, I mean, the stuff
they're pulling putting outthere is really spectacular, and
(08:50):
the same thing with what youguys keep doing.
As far as, uh, the finishesthat you and and how you go
about doing it in the sweetwheat, I mean it's like I really
feel that that's a.
They got a good grasp not onlyon marketing but how to make you
making and putting out thewhiskey and
Speaker 3 (09:11):
make it the best possible?
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Is that kind of what you felt since you've been here?
Speaker 4 (09:14):
Yeah, I mean it's the team kind of across the board
from a quality and a productionstandpoint, is top notch,
without a doubt.
And so you know David Bach isover at A Smith Bowman.
You know Danny Kahn he used tobe master distiller here and now
oversees.
You know several parts ofSazerac on the distillation side
.
And then you have Harlan.
You know there is a wealth ofknowledge and experience.
(09:38):
You have Drew Mayville, masterblender.
So there's just they have anincredible team and you know, a
lot of times, you know, youthink you know something.
You got to talk, to talk tosome of those folks like I I
really don't know what I'mtalking about yet just because
they've seen so many differentthings, they've done so many
different blends or trieddifferent methods, uh, be it
(09:59):
from.
You know the grains they'reusing to uh to how they mash, to
how they ferment or distill orage, you know, and the grains
they're using to uh to how theymash, to how they ferment or
distill or age, you know, andthey're always, always trying
new things.
Um, so it's been yeah to to beable to be a part of that group,
um, is something really specialand something I you know I
didn't realize when I, when Ifirst got here, and now the
(10:21):
brevity of that is like wow,like this is, this is rare.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Well, I will tell you .
If you decide you want togarage age a couple of barrels
in Ohio, I will find some space.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
Probably not, unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
I'm just going to put it out there.
It doesn't work that way, doesit?
No, I wish we don't need awhiskey gate, is it a?
Speaker 4 (10:39):
bonded warehouse?
Probably not.
Sorry, I could make it one Okaygotcha, a bonded warehouse
Probably not.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Sorry, I could make it one.
Okay, gotcha, I'll just go,I'll Google it.
Okay, gotcha, no that's youknow.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
And then what's cool about that?
What you don't?
They've done so much that yourpersonality and the respect that
you instantly exude when youmeet you when I met you, there
was no doubt that kind of personthat you are.
You love what you're doing, theyou have the utmost respect for
(11:12):
the industry that you're in.
There's, there's, you know, andthat type of thing.
So I could see you if you cameup with something and everything
, finding out from the otherpeople if they've done it
already, to see if that you know, there's probably not mistakes,
but things that don't work out,Because when you're always
(11:32):
trying new things, that doesn'tmean everything's going to work
out.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
Yes, there's lots of learnings and we try not to
repeat the failed learnings butyes, there's many learnings and
even in the distillery, you know, when I first got here, I was
like, hey, you know, instead ofjust telling people you know
we're going to do it this way orwe're going to do it that way,
you know, you ask the questionlike, hey, you know, I've seen
it done this way in the past atother distilleries.
(11:56):
What have you tried here around?
You know this fermentationstyle for temperature control or
mashing, or what have you?
People are like, yeah, we triedthat 10 years ago.
It did not work.
All right, hey, tell me why itdidn't work.
And we go back and forth.
It's like, all right, yeah,probably don't need to try that
again.
Or like, hey, we should trythis again.
There's different technology orwe're better set up now with
(12:20):
controls or our equipment'sdifferent.
We should give this another shot.
So there was again, that isanother way of just.
You know, you talk aboutrespect in the industry,
respecting the people who havebeen here for a long time and,
you know, have helped make thisplace what it is today.
You know, taking taking theirlearnings and not and not just
thrown to the side and reallyembracing them.
(12:41):
So and again, that's just, thatis the value of having some
people here who have been here along time and using their
knowledge, dovetailing into that.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Since this facility is not open for tours, do you
want to just take a minute andkind of talk about this
distilling facility?
I mean immediately, as we drovein through the secured gate and
there you see a lot ofdifferences.
So, for those of you that havebeen on the trail and you're
used to seeing the shiny columnsstill and you have a little
trapdoor, you can look insidethe fermenter and, yeah, you
(13:14):
know, or you know it, and you'relike this is different, right,
because all your stuff ismassive and up on a hill.
Yeah, so it's an out, it's moreof an outdoor facility than it
is an indoor facility, like youwould see in most places on the
trail.
Speaker 4 (13:28):
Yeah, I mean there's a combination of both.
I mean the original distilleryat Barton 1792 was started in
like 1879.
That was Mattingly and Moore.
So if you ever hear the nameTom Moore, tom Moore was one of
the founders of the distillery.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
And one of the brands you make here.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
And one of the brands we make here, yep.
So and he and he ran until youknow the 1890s and then he left.
I think I've heard so manydifferent variations of the
story, so you know, if someone,if someone, has it written from
Tom himself, please let me know.
I'd love to see it.
But he ended up basicallyleaving and building another
distillery, I think, on theother side of the street, and
(14:08):
then the original distillery,you know, failed and he
basically combined the two andhe ran that until Prohibition.
And then I don't think we randuring Prohibition.
Some people have said we did.
I've never seen any records oranything that said we ran during
Prohibition.
But his son, cornelius, orConmore, ran it after
Prohibition for about 10 yearsand then there was a fire.
(14:30):
So there's always a fire,there's always a fire, there's
always a fire.
There shouldn't be any more.
We have a lot of methods andnew equipment and protections in
place, but after that fire,that is when Oscar Goetz.
He came in, bought the property, built the brand new distillery
and if you ever again goingback to visiting Bardstown,
(14:50):
there's the Oscar Goetz Museumof Bourbon History in town Great
historical spot to seeeverything from so many
different distilleries.
I think George Washington stillis in that museum as well, but
Oscar, he's the one who startedthe name Barton.
Before that it was the TomMoore Distillery and so Barton
(15:11):
Distilling was done by OscarGoetz and he owned it for 40
years or so, and so the nameVery Old Barton, that brand that
is still made out of here.
That was all from Oscar and hisgroup, so I think he was
originally a businessman inchicago, but yeah, and then
constellation owned it for about15 ish years and then sazerach
(15:34):
bought it in 2009, so they'vehad it almost 16 years that's
kind of a quick ownership storyof the place.
but yeah, it's uh, what you seetoday is the distillery from the
forties.
There's, yes, things havechanged, but there's a lot of
parts that are pretty much, uh,pretty much the same.
So some of our, some of ourfermenters a lot of those were
(15:54):
were built in 44, 45.
They are.
They are the fermenters fromafter the fire.
Uh, we, we have some new ones,we had some that were built in
the sixties and then we havesome that were built in the last
, you know, five to 10 years,but a lot of them and we still
use them today.
A lot of them, you know are arethe same ones and it's a lot of
sheet metal and piping, I meanif it's not broken.
(16:15):
Yeah, so they're all carbonsteel fermenters too.
They're not even.
They're not even stainless.
You can check them out later.
But yeah, the distillery it isa historic place and not on the
National Historic Registry butit is historic in so many ways.
So things I try not to thinkabout, but I also try to think
(16:36):
about is just the history ofthis place and honoring that
tradition that it's been a partof in bourbon history and
culture for so many years, right.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
So yeah, I mean it's.
When you come around, uh, youknow one, it's.
It's been a while.
It's not open to the public, soit's definitely.
This is an?
Uh, industrial.
You know, it's a working.
It's all about making bourbon,it's not about show.
(17:07):
And when you make bourbon andyou age bourbon, the buildings
around, even though they arefrom the 40s, they look like
they're from the 1800s becauseof the black.
You know the not.
You know what happens off of.
You know aging whiskey Yep, andBoudinio, yeah.
So you know aging whiskey Yep,and but Daniel, yeah.
So so I mean it's, but it's socool when you're here you feel
(17:29):
like it's been here forever.
Speaker 4 (17:31):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Right that feel.
I'm sure there's days where usfeels like it's been here
forever.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
So, honestly honestly , we we have really good
maintenance team and they havedone an extremely good job of
taking care of the equipmentthat we do have.
And if it's time to replacesomething, you know it's like,
hey, all right, it's, it's timewe will, we will replace that.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
So Right, it's not about like I was saying, it's
not about what it looks likebecause when you're showing a
distillery consistently, youhave to keep up and make
everything shiny and everythingfor the visitors, but here it's
just about making it beproductive and functional at the
highest level.
I'm not saying you're notfixing anything or anything like
that, but even the buildingsjust give you that feel of it's
(18:12):
been here a long time.
And then when we first startedcoming in 2019, the hill where
the rickhouses are on when youcome into Bardstown from Boston,
there was like no One two.
Now the whole hill iscompletely there's a lot of red
capsules.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
And then you know that's pretty much the standard
in the industry at the moment.
Yep, how else are you going toproduce this good stuff without
having it for everybody, right?
Speaker 4 (18:40):
Yep, this stuff is definitely in barrels more than
a couple of days, so you got tofind somewhere to store it.
But yeah, I mean, thedistillery is, even though it's
old, it's one.
Our team just does a good jobof taking care of it, keeping it
clean.
You know it.
I wouldn't, I don't know.
You know people would eat offthe floors, but it's, it's
pretty darn clean and thatthat's just part of good
(19:00):
sanitation practice for abiological process so yeah, if
you didn't keep it clean youryeast.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
That's, that's a whole thing.
Yeah it.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
So you have a 10-second rule, yeah yeah, no
yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
No no no.
But it's.
Yeah, they do a very good jobof maintaining it.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
When they were giving tours, I had taken the tour.
I think that was like right in2020 with Super Nash, and that's
one thing.
You just noted that this one,this was the, this was about
production yep producing and youknow it's just, it's the
coolest thing to go through.
Uh, steve coombs uh, you know,writer from louisville.
He basically talked about howmuch he loved that tour because
(19:44):
you did get the real goodfeeling of what it what, what
people are doing when they're,when their sole purpose is to
make whiskey.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
Yeah, you come in and you see it in 10 minutes.
You can see grain unloading tothe whiskey, coming off the
still and everything in between.
You go into the mill room andsee where it's being milled.
You can go to the mash floorand see our cookers and see how
that's going's going on.
You see the base for still.
You see the top of our still.
(20:12):
You go to our fermenters see,see all the see all the ferment
activity going on.
Um, you go to our doubler.
You can see it, you know,boiling in inside the doubler
from a, from a cyclast.
So, yeah, you and and again,it's not like it's this perfect
tour path.
It is is up and down the stairsthis way, that way, you know.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
And I think that day it was like 87 degrees outside.
Speaker 4 (20:36):
Yeah, probably yeah, and it's like we got up to the
top where the window was.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
You know everybody's Yep, yep.
Speaker 4 (20:43):
It was hot in there, but like you said it's great in
the winter, but it is kind ofcool At like you said it's great
, but what, but it is kind ofcool.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
At one point it was designed somewhat to show,
because you do have, you know,by the, still with the, um, the,
the, what is it?
The use your words.
Oh, my god the big b.
Speaker 4 (21:05):
no, yeah, but where it comes out into the oh the,
the tails box.
Thank you, yeah, you're good.
You're good, you're good,johnny, it was just like it was
gone, it's all right, you guysdon't have a vault though, do
you?
Speaker 1 (21:13):
No, no you don't have to have that.
Speaker 4 (21:16):
No, we have product tanks that are temporarily
holding tanks before we pump itup the hill to our larger
cistern tanks for the barrelwarehouse.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Well, the vault always to me on the tours was
always put in the spirit vaultis for show.
It's made it look so pretty,whereas you guys aren't.
That's not what it's about here.
Speaker 4 (21:32):
Nope, we're just making whiskey, High quality
whiskey, that is our goal.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Just give somebody who's watching and meeting you
for the first time just thebackground of where you actually
came from.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
What's your journey to get here?
Speaker 1 (21:46):
I mean honestly.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Not straightforward.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
But you didn't come from a small place that didn't
make whiskey.
That's true.
That's true.
Speaker 4 (21:56):
No, I've been.
You know, I think.
I think we'll go go back alittle further, back than even
whiskey, and I will still.
I will never forget sitting atthe kitchen counter and my mom
just asking me in high schooland being like what are you
going to do?
Tell me, tell me, what are yougoing to do?
She was throwing out all sortsof ideas and it was over
(22:19):
breakfast and I just rememberbeing like oh yeah, like cereal,
Like cereal is cool.
I, like you know, I can makecereal and it would be cool to
like make it and then people eatit every day.
I can make cereal and it wouldbe cool to like make it and then
people eat it every day.
So you know, like at that timeyou know, honey, bunch of Oats
or Lucky Charms, I don't know,it was probably one of those two
.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
I ate a lot of those two yes they are Absolutely so.
Speaker 4 (22:39):
You know, I started looking at food science programs
, you know, in college and likefood engineering programs, and I
ended up going to PurdueUniversity for bio and food
process engineering Thanks, andthat was and that was a great
call because they have a foodscience program and they have a
bio and food engineering program, so you really could.
You know it's designed to whereyou know you can do things at a
(23:01):
lab scale or at a veryindustrial scale, and the food
engineering side was more, wasmore at the large industrial
scale.
That was my whole goal.
Going to college was to go makecereal, which sounds funny, but
hey, you know what Somebody'sgot to do it.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Yeah, someone has to do it.
Speaker 4 (23:18):
But that, you know, my plans changed and I took
microbiology.
My.
It was my junior year ofcollege and it was just.
It was a mind-blowingexperience because it was just
this whole world that is aroundus, that is in us and, you know,
controls a lot of things andcreates a lot of great products.
(23:39):
Some of them right in front ofus is all done through
microbiology.
And so I said, yeah, I shouldprobably explore this some more.
So I tried everything I couldto get an internship at a
distillery or a brewery or afuel ethanol plant that summer
and ended up not because it was,I was, I was in the spring, um
too late, but you know I stuckwith it.
(24:00):
I said this is superinteresting, I'm going to figure
it out one way or the other,and ended up getting a job at
MGP ingredients in Lawrenceburg,Indiana.
So people are pretty familiarnowadays with MGP.
You know it's now known as theRoss and Squibb distillery.
Yeah, because MGP doesn't justdo whiskey it does a whole
mouthful, it does everything.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Yeah, that's why Ross is as you said.
Speaker 4 (24:26):
It is a wild and cool place.
So you know I didn't realizewhat I was walking into.
I started out as just adistillery shift manager, you
know.
So I'd manage the shift dayshift, night shift, afternoon
shift and I got to, you know, doall the learning or get to know
everything about how adistillery is ran From not just
whiskey, you know vodka or G&S,you know, made a lot of gin
(24:48):
there, but you just ran so manydifferent mash fills.
You ran so many differentfermentations and distillation
processes so you know thingswould change every single day.
So it wasn't just, hey, we'remaking one mash fill.
I got to learn.
I had the opportunity to learnso many different you know
mashing and distillationpractices in a very short span
(25:09):
of time, and so again didn'trealize how lucky I was.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Well, you were at a really exciting time for them
too, because as the NDP startedcoming out, that's right at the
time you were there when, all ofa sudden, all these people were
buying barrels and producingdifferent brands and it just
kind of exploded at that pointright, it definitely did.
Speaker 4 (25:29):
I started there in 2014 and I think so it was the
summer of 2014.
I think that fall of 2014,there was a few huge articles
that came out.
I was like that bottle thatyou're drinking was probably
made at a factory I think theyused the term factory in Indiana
and all of a sudden, it's likepeople started calling me like,
hey, I need more bourbon, I needmore bourbon, and so I was
(25:51):
during.
I was there from 2014 to 18when just this massive boom for
mgp occurred, and so I was.
I was a part of that and thatwas uh, whether whether you like
it or not, I mean it was.
It was a crazy time to be there.
So so I was a shift manager forfor a couple years and then I
was.
I transitioned to more like atechnical role.
(26:11):
I was the fermentationdistillation manager alongside
Ian Sturzman, who is now theirmaster distiller at Roslin's
Club.
So I managed part of theprocess.
He managed the other part ofthe process.
I was more on the front side.
So grain mashing, fermentation,we overlap, but he sometimes
helped manage that, but he wasmainly, you know, fermentation
(26:31):
or a little bit of fermentation,but a lot of distillation, dry
ice utilities.
But you know our pathsoverlapped all the time.
Our desks were next to eachother.
We're always, always talking,and so while this boom was going
on and we were making all thesedifferent mash fills, you know
I was trying to become thetechnical person on all these
different mash fills.
You know I was trying to becomethe technical person on all
these, on all these processchanges, and it was again.
(26:54):
I had no option but to learn.
You know all the technicalitiesand you know I think the
biggest thing that I learned, ina general statement, is what
effect do certain processchanges have on final distal
equality going into the barrel,coming off the still and so
being able to connect.
You know when this changehappens, or when this change
(27:15):
happens, knowing what effectthat will have on final product.
That is a very important skilland something that Greg Metz,
who is the master of, still atthe time.
I mean, he knew if you madethis change or that change, or
if you made this strong of achange, you know it would have
this final effect.
Or you had issues withfermentation?
(27:36):
Hey, this is probably what willhappen.
How do we okay, how do we notmake that happen again?
So I learned so many thingsfrom so many good people in
those four years.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
So when you came here , it wasn't as complicated, it
was a little bit more.
Fewer match bills Focused it'sfocused here right, A little bit
more focused.
There was kind of like yeah,that was like a distillery with
attention deficit All over theplace.
Speaker 4 (28:05):
Yeah, there was a lot going on there all the time and
I mean there's still a lotgoing on here.
But it's funny because, yeah,there is kind of just one system
here.
We do a lot of different mashfills because we produce a lot
of different things for Zazerac,but it is a little easier to
follow.
You know, we can improve thisprocess, or I think we can
(28:30):
improve this process.
So it's been a lot of processimprovement, but also, you know,
using what I learned at MGP andbeing like all right, I know if
we change this, we're mostlikely to see an effect on
distillate quality for thebetter in this case.
Or, hey, you know this keeps onhappening.
All right, how do we make surethat doesn't happen anymore, so
that we don't have that issuewith our distillate?
You know, it was never anythingyou know like major, major
(28:52):
issues.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
If it was, you know.
Speaker 4 (28:54):
CYMTI2 would not exist and people would not be
buying it.
So, but it's all about processimprovement in that case, oh and
people don't realize.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
sometimes it's also about yield.
Like you know, what the yeastdoes and how much it yields is
very important and that'saffected by humidity and it's
affected.
It's affected by so much and bya lot of things.
Speaker 4 (29:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
So your goal always is to make it yield.
You know you can, you canalways improve in those, those
areas.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
Yep, yep.
So making sure you get all thealcohol you're supposed to out
of out of your product is or outof the grain, is very important
, and there's a lot of thingsthat affect yield.
So from the grain you get in,the moisture in the grain, to
how you mill it.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Time of year too right Time of year, I mean,
that's one thing I didn'trealize.
But when you're buying grainand the corn's just been
harvested, the corn's prettyfresh, right, Yep.
And then when you buy grain atthe beginning of the growing
season, that's the end of theyear before.
Speaker 4 (29:52):
Yeah, and it's different, correct, it can be
different.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
I mean, you could almost distill different
products with different typesfrom the different times of the
year.
Right, if you wanted to.
Speaker 4 (30:02):
You could, we don't quite set our schedules up.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
like that, not like that.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
But you could.
Yeah, we just do so manydifferent things here and I'm
never, you know, because of mytime at MGP I'm not afraid to
say no to a project, or, youknow, look or be curious and try
new things.
Generally people are on board,but sometimes I have to convince
people a little bit, like Ipromise this won't be that bad.
This will be.
This is for the better.
(30:27):
Let's try this new thing.
Or people come to me with newideas, like, yeah, let's do it,
why not?
We can make this happen.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
So you've been here three years.
It's been in the barrel forthree years, yep, and you're
doing it.
I mean about when do you startusing the stuff?
What's the age point?
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Oh, it'll be a little ways.
That's one of the beauties.
I think of working for a largerorganization as opposed to a
craft distillery.
They have the economics and thecash flow to be able to say,
yeah, we're laying these barrelsup for eight years.
Where a smaller operation, theyhave to have cash flow.
Bourbon's one of the worstinvestments in the planet
because you lay it up today andI could sell it maybe in four
(31:10):
years and then it's not going tobe as good as it would be if I
was selling it in eight yearsand not as good as ten years.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
But the worst thing is it's tempting to sell it at
two, at just the level, andit'll sell.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
It won't be very good .
We've had some two-year-oldburbs.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
There's a lot of stuff on the shelf, not from
here, but from places where it'snot as good, but people still
buy it.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
Yeah, I mean it's cheaper For science.
It's a lot cheaper and it'scheaper.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
And they usually proof it down so that they can
improve the yield from barrel.
And I mean, there's just thebourbonomics of it, right be
here where it's like, yeah, wecan wait, we don't have to,
we're okay with that.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Well, yeah, establishment is not a startup.
It's always a good thing.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
Yeah, to be honest with you, I think that's one of
the crown jewels of the Sazeracformula is they're not pushed.
I mean, if you need to leave it, leave it To be honest with you
.
I think it's one of the reasonswhy the products in general
from the family is so consistentand way above average.
Yeah so, and it allows you theopportunity to play around with
(32:18):
some things and make someexceptional things Correct.
Maybe we should talk about thebrand for a little bit, just a
minute.
You know 1792,.
Obviously small batch isrelatively available across the
country.
Yep, I don't think there's anystates that you don't distribute
to.
Speaker 4 (32:31):
Now that I know of.
I'm not sure, but not that Iknow of Well.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
I go to liquor stores .
In a lot of places I usuallysee small batch.
Speaker 4 (32:38):
That's good.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Okay, but I know with foolproof and sweet wheat,
sweet wheat's been kind of aunicorn for me.
It just doesn't ever seem tohit the shelf and when it does,
it disappears.
And obviously the 12 producttoo is another one that just as
soon as it sits on the shelf,people that know bourbon are
buying that 12 year bottle.
(33:00):
But yeah, maybe talk a littlebit about what the differences
are and why you know I'm curiousto hear about sweet wheat,
because obviously that's myfavorite of the lineup.
But a little bit about what youdo here that makes 1792 special.
Speaker 4 (33:12):
So 1792 as a product Constellation actually started
that back in 2002.
So I don't know if everybodyknows that, but that was called
1792 Ridgewood Reserve and ithad the burlap neck label and it
had the wooden cap.
Woodford Reserve did notappreciate that name, probably
for many reasons, so it was alittle too close.
(33:34):
So there's a quick lawsuit backthen and it quickly became 1792
.
Ridgemont Reserve is what itwas called for a long time, I
think until about 2012, 2013.
That is when I saw the burlapneck label and the wooden cap
and it was very, you know, itlooked like it was from down
home Kentucky and about 2013 orso they did a revamp and that is
(33:58):
what you see today, to whereit's a little more you know.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
You went for a unique bottle shape.
Yeah well, it was a similarbottle shape.
Speaker 4 (34:06):
But it got the gold cap.
It went for a more you knowkind of art deco, refined look
on the neck labels with a lot ofgold features to it.
So yeah, they completelychanged kind of the branding on
it back in.
You know that was almost 12years ago so.
But yeah, small batch is whatused to be Ridgemont or
Ridgewood Reserve and theychanged just to 1792 small batch
(34:28):
.
But 1792 is the year Kentuckybecame a commonwealth state in
in the United States.
So it's paying homage to that.
But pretty much every bourbonthat we make is it's a high rye
mash bill.
So plenty, plenty of ryeoutside of the sweetweed.
The sweetweed is the one weedbourbon.
That is a part of the 1792lineup, which I like.
(34:49):
Sweetweed too, I'm the fan, butI'm a rye bourbon guy.
So yeah, the high rye mash billprovides a lot of, you know,
spice that you normally get froma rye than you do, versus like
the soft and sweet notes thatyou get from a weeded bourbon,
which are very present insweetweed.
But the other part that kind ofmakes it unique.
(35:09):
And every distillery has theiryeast strain.
1792 is not any different inthat sense.
But our yeast strain produces aton of different esters,
infusal oils during fermentation.
One of those esters, the mainone, is called isoamyl acetate,
which is that really banana?
Speaker 2 (35:23):
forward.
Should I say that?
Speaker 4 (35:23):
three times fast.
Yeah, no.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
I don't think I could , but yeah isoamyl acetate.
Speaker 4 (35:34):
So that produces.
There you go, just not fast ina row.
You know if you say it a thirdtime, it's going to appear in a
row, gotcha yeah.
But, it's producing a ton ofbanana notes and that, along
with the rice spice, and thenall the notes that you get from
being in a barrel for quite awhile you know those
butterscotch, dark sugars,vanilla caramel and you have a
really nice recipe.
You have like a bunch of bakingspice, you have a bunch of
(35:57):
lovely banana and fruity flavorsand then you have everything
from the barrel.
So I think in it it's at 93.7proof.
So it's high, but it's not toohigh of a proof, it's
approachable.
It doesn't hide itself in acocktail, you know.
It stands out generally if youput it in one, but not.
But it's not overbearing at thesame time.
(36:17):
So I love a small batch forvery.
You know I can't tell you howmany barrels go into a small
batch, but we are particularabout how we, how we do our
small batch blends.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Um yeah, because small batch for some people are
10 barrels and small batch forothers are 16 barrels.
Speaker 4 (36:31):
Yeah, there's no definition for small batch.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
So we're not small?
No, a small batch fits around.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
It could be worse.
You could be tiny.
Speaker 4 (36:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
You could do a special tiny batch.
Speaker 4 (36:45):
Yep, tiny batch, yeah , I like that.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Put it in the little 200 milliliters Yep Tiny batch.
Yeah, I like that.
Put it in the little 200milliliters Yep Tiny bottle.
That makes sense there you go.
Speaker 4 (36:55):
You really should be in marketing.
That's good.
Sweet wheat is just soft andapproachable.
It's only 91.2 proof and again,it's already weeded so you
don't have some of those biggerand bolder flavors that you get
from from rye.
It's soft and sweet from fromwheat grain, even when you are
(37:16):
making it in the in thedistillery, when you walk
through the still you know whenyou're making sweet wheat really
.
Yeah, there's a completelydifferent aroma to the place, um
than if you're making 1792 orsome of our other mash bills.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
You could also say on the day that you're doing it
when you're in Barstown with thewinds blowing you can tell the
difference too.
Generations of people havesmall cooks, the cooks that you
guys do.
Speaker 4 (37:37):
Yes, they have Cooks in our dry house happily going.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Also, next time you're doing sweet, we give a
call and come down and do akegger, okay.
Speaker 4 (37:49):
I don't know if that would be allowed, but it sounds
great, we just do it down thestreet.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Yeah, we don't make a lot of it Again.
Speaker 4 (37:54):
A lot of our production is dedicated to our
rye bourbon production becauseit goes into so many different
things, but it is really fun tomake sweet wheat.
It's a great product and we'revery particular about the
barrels that go into it becauseit is a smaller release every
year.
So if some barrels aren't ready, we say, hey, they're not ready
(38:14):
.
All right, it might be a littlesmaller, smaller release than
we want to this year becausetiny had the opportunity to grab
this year's passion.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Yeah, it's real good.
Speaker 4 (38:19):
I mean it's super good very particular about the
barrels that went into that.
So, kudos, yeah, I mean it'sjust it's last year and this
year it just was.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
But this year, like I said, I even picked up a small
batch and compared it and it'salmost like no comparison.
Speaker 4 (38:37):
Oh, I mean again the process hasn't changed too much.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
No, it's not the process, it's what you put into
it and what the flavor.
Speaker 4 (38:43):
It's still the general flavor profile that
you're shooting for.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
But, like I said, there's some aspects of it that
were so rich and dark that thatwas for the bourbon drink, the
bourbon bourbon drinker, yeah,and now it's like I said, it's
kind of like you've opened it upand I'm not your team has you
and your team yep, and you cantell that it is definitely when,
when you pick small batches forme and I drink so much small
(39:08):
batches like they're not alwaysthe one that we're looking for
because of the it's going forthe consistency there's they're
they're not always the one thatwe're looking for because of the
it's going for the consistencythere's they're.
They're not always so, um,complex, right, the complexity
happens in in the specialreleases, but I'm always tasting
people's small batches becausethat is what you sell most of
and it's something, and thatthis year's small batch to me,
(39:30):
it would be something that Iwould like.
After tasting and doing it, Iwould keep drinking it yeah,
that's what I'm saying, that'sgood, whereas you know there's
900, almost a thousand bottlesin my basement and when I go
down I would consider havingthat's in the you know
non-podcasting, you know library.
Yeah, I'm just excited what you, what, what the distillery now
(39:50):
is putting out and that it seemsto be so much more it, it'll be
so much more for everybody.
Speaker 4 (39:55):
Yeah, and that's, that's a goal.
I kind of compare small batchesat you know, across the board
to you know.
I'm going to use another,another Bardstown staple,
haydorn Haydorn Bakery.
I don't know if people thosewho have visited.
Bardstown.
I have eaten a lot of donutholes from 8-Orin's Bakery over
the years but you know it's thatsimple glazed donut or it's the
(40:18):
donut holes Like.
It's one thing that you knowshould be consistent all the
time and you know, if you haveone, you know exactly what it's
going to taste like.
That should be our 1792 SmallBash.
There's no questions that it'sgoing to be good and that's got.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
be that one of the hardest parts of your job is
because you could have blendedfor you that just you're like
wow, this is really good, butit's not the flavor profile yeah
for it.
Speaker 4 (40:39):
Yeah.
So managing flavor profile isinsanely important.
But I've seen, and I'm suresadarik is open to this.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
But, like when you're talking, I what I've seen in
the six years that I've reallybeen into this, the whiskey of
the taste of the whiskey ofeverything has gotten better as
those six years.
And I really think it has to dowith one the.
It's been such perfect Asianconditions in Kentucky over the
last five or six years of thatheat and the cold and everything
(41:08):
that's been happening.
Now this year it might become alittle waterlogged but yeah,
you know, cause there's a lot ofwet.
Yeah, but overall it just seemedto me like Buffalo Trace.
That in itself is there's a lotof.
This year's release has like aton more caramel that to me that
it had in the past, you know.
Speaker 3 (41:25):
So it's the same thing when I'm noticing there.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
It just seems like so if you're on point on the batch
, you don't mind it being alittle bit sweeter or whatever.
Right, that evolution is okay,but you're getting the quality
out of the barrels Correct.
You know most places arepicking like they have to cherry
pick the stuff to age longerbecause they know this age.
Not every barrel is going toage the full 12 years and be
(41:49):
good.
Speaker 4 (41:49):
You know you've got to get those into the I've
already said aside barrels for afew years, 12 years too.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Make sure they don't go into the wrong thing.
That's what you're saying Ithink the amount of barrels that
are really good are superavailable.
That part is just more becauseof the aging and the heat and
everything that's been happening.
I just think I've noticed thedifference.
That's good.
Speaker 4 (42:13):
Yeah, kentucky.
There's a reason kentucky is agreat play stage.
A whiskey those temperaturevariations which we track uh are
, are fantastic.
So I mean it gets hot in thetop of a warehouse.
I mean it'll, it'll approach100, 110 you guys, don't you?
Speaker 2 (42:27):
do you want to?
Speaker 1 (42:28):
I'm sorry do you rotate them?
We do not rotate, you take them.
So you gotta grab them off thetop before all hell breaks loose
.
Speaker 4 (42:35):
Yeah, I mean, and that's kind of where the
blending part comes into it andagain where you know, probably
my biggest learnings have beenover the last couple years
because I did nothing aroundblending and maturation when I
was at MGP.
It was strictly in thedistillery, nothing in the
warehouses, and so I was like Ihave to learn this side of the
(42:56):
process because it matters somuch.
If you have a barrel at the topfor x number of years or at the
bottom for the same number ofyears, those two barrels are
going to be very differentbecause they have not seen the
same temperature fluctuations,which means they haven't seen
the same amount of interactionwith the barrel and the flavor
is completely different.
And then what happens if youblend those two together or if
you blend them in differentratios, or do you take barrels
just from the middle of thewarehouse?
So you know messing and playingand experimenting with, you
(43:20):
know what I call tiers of awarehouse and how that fits into
small batch and the otherproducts.
That has been probably thebiggest learning that I've had
in the last couple of years.
So it all goes back to quality.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
So how involved are you in the warehouse management
side of things?
As far as I mean, are youtaking one product and it's
mostly the top of the otherrickhouse and then, if you need
to do a small batch flavorprofile, maybe a couple from the
sides and maybe a couple fromthe bottom center?
I mean, are you getting picky?
Yeah, we're getting prettypicky.
Speaker 4 (43:54):
So things like foolproof, a lot of those come
from the tops of our warehousesbecause you know, the proof on
that is 125 proof.
And so you know, what you seein our, in our rickhouse, is
that the uh, if you stay in themiddle of the house, and most
from up on top of the hill, ifyou're in the middle of the
rickhouse, it'll stay around 125proof.
If you are at the top it willgo up.
It it's hotter, it's drier, andif it's drier you lose more
(44:16):
moisture than you do alcohol,and so the proof will go up to
130, 135, and 140.
If you're in the bottom of thewarehouse it'll go below a
little under 125.
So we're always looking more sotowards the top of the
warehouse for foolproof.
So in small batch we're lookingat all parts of the warehouses.
We also have warehouses thatsit down off the side of the
(44:38):
hill and those warehouses agecompletely differently than
those on the top of the hill andage completely differently than
the ones that sit to Cathedral,main or New Haven Road,
depending on where you are onthat road and what you want to
call it.
So it isn't just where it is inthe warehouse, it's also where
that warehouse is on theproperty, and so there's all
these variables.
(45:01):
So, yeah, I would say thatthere's a big formula for small
batch.
But I sit down with our folksand we go through our inventory
and say, all right, for thismonth's or this week's small
batch, this is where we're goingto pull barrels from.
Yeah, that seems about right.
Small batch, you know, this iswhere we're going to pull
barrels from.
You know, yeah, that seemsabout right.
Let's do the calculation, yep,okay, and then we pull samples
(45:21):
from a number of those barrelsand they combine those, compare
it against our standard forsmall batch.
So, yeah or nope, that's alittle off.
We should, you know, subtracthere or there.
So we do that with all ourproducts.
So it's a very.
Everyone thinks, oh hey, justtake some barrels and dump them.
And this is, you know, it'sautomatically consistent.
There is a lot of work thatgoes into it.
Speaker 1 (45:43):
So I got to with a distilled, a blender blend, one
time for a batch.
So I had 13 different barrels.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
That's cool barrels.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
That's cool, but he had two barrels on the podcast
that he put samples in, right.
Yeah.
So there was two barrels.
One was bland, it was so it waslike the most bland whiskey
I've ever tasted in my life.
And the other one was spicy,super spicy.
And he agreed with me on myassessment of the barrel and I
was like, so why is that inthere?
And he's like, well, you dothis, you do this and all of a
sudden you taste it and you likethe flavor.
But it's so hot that that's nothow it goes.
So then you use that, use ablend barrel, and then same
(46:16):
thing if it's too bland, itneeds to be sliced up a little
bit.
You use a spicy barrel and he'slike uh, you know, I like to
use partial barrels.
I can't, I can't have halfbarrels laying around, but
that's how you do it.
It's the partial ratio.
So, and it's like god, there'sa lender, you need those, you
need the, you need the barrels.
That they all aren't perfect.
Speaker 3 (46:34):
Really beautiful, complete whiskey Single barrels,
you know, single barrels are sogood.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
They all have their attributes, but you can use them
to make the small batch.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
Well, you actually have to have a small batch?
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Yeah, because if you, what would you do with the
barrels?
You know, because it's a blendof everything put together to
make that.
Yep, because it's a blend ofeverything together to make that
Yep, Make it great.
You know, you guys don't seemto have it but a lot of places
well, so barrels like, let'sjust say they don't make it.
You know, I know Orphans.
Speaker 4 (47:06):
The ones that don't fit your flavor profile.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
What do you got to do with?
Speaker 4 (47:07):
those.
Yeah, I mean we have a reallylarge single barrel program here
.
So the size rack barrel selects.
So there's a lot of fun andunique barrels that get put into
that program Okay, which isalways great.
So we don't do tours here.
But the one way that peoplecome on site is for single
barrel picks.
So we take them up to awarehouse see it and you choose
(47:28):
from a number of barrels andsome of them are kind of
standard flavor profile.
You know that rice bites, thatbanana, that butterscotch and
caramel like.
So, yeah, that's classic, I'mgoing to.
There's a lot of them that arelike well, this is, this is
different, this is unique, andso that's the fun part of
picking a single barrel, um, andeven sister barrels.
You know two barrels that werenext to each other.
I would fill it on the same dayand sit in the warehouse for,
(47:51):
yeah, entirety.
It's like how are those barrels?
Like, there is no way.
It's like, no, like here's thedata, here's the sheet, like I
promise you, people struggle tobelieve it sometimes.
I struggle to believe itsometimes.
Speaker 1 (48:04):
Well, that just shows you in the barrel-making
process how important the woodis.
I mean, you know, a barrel.
Those two barrels weren't madeout of the same two trees.
You know what I mean.
There's probably 14 trees inthe thing.
Whatever, and that's the reallycool thing about whiskey it's a
very straightforward processwith so many intricacies?
Speaker 4 (48:24):
Yeah, there's a lot of.
You know.
I would say the whiskey as awhole is starting to do a lot of
analytics around.
You know where that tree isfrom, who, who made that barrel,
how that barrel is beingtoasted or charred, how it's
being seasoned and what are thefinal effects.
So that computer is.
There's a lot of work, you know, and we are not.
We are not keeping our head inthe sand either.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
On there was an irish whiskey brand, not whatever,
but they had barrels.
They had like 14 distillersacross Ireland and they were
pulling barrels from all of themmaking their wines, but every
single blend was documented,with every single barrel age.
I mean, the information onlinewas so crazy and the only way I
(49:09):
can do it is because of computertechnology.
And computer technology isreally, I mean, what Buffalo
Trace is doing to match thewarehouses, that everything's
made on on the new warehouse,down to controlling the
environment, is nothing short ofspectacular.
Speaker 4 (49:24):
Yeah, they do some really cool things over there.
So, yeah, there's a lot ofanalytics and technology going
into it now.
So, and that's just another waythat you know we get to make
sure we make great whiskey.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Right, and plus you're all.
Now we're saying that you'renot going to be at the festival
this year.
Sorry, Yep, so maybe maybe acouple weeks after it's just
made an appearance at Bourbon onthe Banks.
There you go.
Speaker 4 (49:49):
That would be good.
That's over in right.
Speaker 1 (49:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (49:53):
That's a Saturday, one Saturday with everybody
running around.
I'll run around with the kidsstrapped.
To me that sounds good.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
Or learn from the game.
Speaker 4 (50:03):
No, that doesn't happen.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
That doesn't exist.
That's a five or a four, andthey're all in there.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
I'll give you one word of advice.
That's four.
He's pretty sure it's just four.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
Two, you're not outnumbered.
But as soon as you decide to gobeyond that, just for the rest
of your life, you're going to beoutnumbered.
Speaker 4 (50:24):
I'll take that advice .
Thank you, Two each one canhandle it.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
I just remember having the third one run over
and you're just like who's goingto get that one?
I got this one.
Speaker 4 (50:41):
That was just like three different directions, two
people all right.
Speaker 1 (50:43):
Two is it, I don't know.
But you know, I'm not saying,but I'm just like I could try
that it does.
Speaker 4 (50:52):
I could try that it does so everything you know,
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (50:55):
So you heard of Dr Spock.
What does that mean?
It's okay.
There's a couple new thingsthat you guys got going on in
the right eventually right, andso everybody's waiting for that
one.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
So once that's out, we'll have you on for the
podcast.
Speaker 4 (51:12):
Yeah, that'd be great .
Speaker 2 (51:13):
Unless we get to Canton.
Speaker 4 (51:16):
Like.
Speaker 2 (51:16):
I said I have a family up there.
Speaker 4 (51:21):
So every once in a while I drive through that area.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
It'll be like turning back to East Wing, but just
basement.
Speaker 4 (51:26):
Gotcha, there you go.
You know I like that area a lot, like outside, just kind of
northern Ohio.
There's so many little familyfarms.
It's in some ways that thereare some similarities to
kentucky not not a lot, but allthe like very local produce
farms, uh, a lot of farms, yeah,a lot of farms.
Markets, um, but just the justput for everything local up in
(51:47):
that area is always cool.
Our friends own, uh, on aflower farm up in near, uh, what
is the town?
busiris I think, yeah, that'swhere I'm so yeah, so and uh,
and they bought an old, an oldfarmhouse and I think five or
six acres came with it and theydo, you know, you pick flowers
and produce and everything, andthat's that's what they do these
days and that is, and they wereboth, you know, in
(52:08):
manufacturing and corporatebeforehand and they and they
love it, and it's just like,yeah, we we're one of a lot of
people who do this up here andyou see a lot of that down here
in Kentucky too.
People, just they're just sucha great local push and presence
between both areas.
Speaker 1 (52:21):
The only thing I would say that's different when
I travel back and forth is thatthere's a Southern drawl accent.
Speaker 3 (52:28):
Other than that the people are so similar and it's
just like you know, you guys,almost the definition it's part
of the South, it's not part ofthe South.
Speaker 4 (52:42):
And so there's an aspect of the Midwestern work
that is definitely allthroughout Kentucky, you know,
and the people, so I get to goto a lot of nice places so Ohio
and Kentucky and Indiana andColorado and Colorado every once
in a while.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (52:54):
So yeah, indiana.
The only difference betweenIndiana is there's just like way
more agriculture.
That goes on.
Speaker 4 (53:01):
You know when you're, there's a lot of corn right
exactly it's just not.
Speaker 3 (53:05):
You know, ohio have sections, kentucky has sections
but that's not all.
Speaker 1 (53:08):
And then you've got Indiana and it's like not
sections, it's defining, it'snot quite as brash to go.
Speaker 2 (53:14):
So last question all right, so so can't tell you the
number of times I'm having a youknow a tasting or you know a
little dram with friends andthey're like man.
Can you imagine your own jobwas to just sit around and drink
this mattress stiller?
We've talked so many messages,stillers.
I've heard the stories.
Just write to me what youraverage day looks like, so that
(53:34):
they can get betterunderstanding that it's not show
up.
What's your dress like?
Are you over with your clearglass and sitting around and
buying a nice pour out of afour-year barrel?
Speaker 4 (53:42):
That would be nice, I would like that job, but you, I
don't think I would like thatjob.
Yeah, that might get boringafter a while, though.
Speaker 2 (53:56):
I can tell you my, my job is not boring after a month
.
Speaker 4 (53:57):
yeah, yep, yeah, uh, or cirrhosis wanted to.
Yeah, it's um.
You know, I think that'sprobably one of my favorite
aspects of this role is, youknow, I'm kind of the technical
lead in a lot of ways in thestory and also people lead and
so, um, you know, the people inthe stilly and the barrel
operations report, report upthrough through me in the
organization and then, um, but Ireport up through me and the
organization.
But I'm also seen as the onewho has to like, hey, if we're
(54:18):
having issues, well, we're anawesome team, you guys better
figure it out, or you want topush and improve the systems,
you are the ones who are goingto do that.
It's not like we have anotherhuge engineering team that is
making all these changes.
We're the ones who know theprocess and so we are the best
suited to help push the changesand improve the process as well.
So it can be everything from.
(54:39):
You know every morning.
You know we have meetingsbetween us and maintenance.
We have our manager meetings.
You know we talk about.
You know any issues that we mayhave about troubleshooting.
We celebrate our wins, wecensor every single day and then
you know after issues that wemay have about troubleshooting
we celebrate our wins.
We censor every single day andthen you know after that it can
(55:00):
be you know a whole differentgame every day.
Mondays I try to do a lot offolks on censoring.
Tuesdays can be more capitalprojects and just project-heavy
days.
Wednesdays there's a bigemphasis on maintenance, like
larger weekly maintenancemeetings between distillery
warehouse and our maintenanceteam.
Thursdays generally back toprojects or, you know, catching
up with people.
And Fridays well, today,Friday's podcast day.
Speaker 1 (55:23):
And we appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (55:23):
Yeah, and Fridays can kind of be anything and
everything.
Speaker 1 (55:26):
I'm just glad you're not comparing it to sales day.
Speaker 4 (55:28):
Yeah, no.
So yeah, you know, we're justinvolved in a lot of different
things and you've got to put intravel out there.
No, you know I don't do a lotof traveling for work, and it's
okay.
You know I'll go do visitsmaybe a couple times a quarter,
but I mean, even that's quite abit, you know.
(55:49):
And we do a lot of single barrelpicks here.
You know, I'll maybe do acouple a month, but our team
hosts all of those.
It's people who work in thestore in the barrel, so you
don't have a tour guide.
Tour guides are very educated,but they're not doing the work
today.
This is Brian, our stillmanager.
When he leads a barrel pick,you can ask him about anything
in the stillery and he'll tellyou exactly how it's done in in
(56:13):
great or rusty or awesome.
Who's our chemist?
You know, you want to knowanything.
The chemistry behind the Austinis the guy to talk to.
If you're lucky, I mean, that'sthat.
That's your guy.
So, um, so yeah, there's we.
We do a lot of things here, notlike pigeonhole, which is uh,
which is great.
We don't get bored, sosometimes overwhelming, but we
don't get bored.
So I think think that answersyour question of a typical day,
(56:34):
but really it's more like atypical week and it makes all
the different aspects.
Speaker 1 (56:38):
Like you said, what's one thing about the job itself
is kind of cool, In fact, thatyou have so many different areas
that you're a part of, and ifit needs to be trail shot, you
either find the right people todo it or you know how to do it
yourself.
But you're never bored becauseusually every day brings a
different challenge.
Absolutely, and that's onethat's my man and that's what
keeps me going.
It's just like I've 20 years,I've learned everything and
(57:01):
wherever I need it, I'm going,or there is some days when it's
running nice and you got thecrew going, you just kind of sit
back.
Speaker 3 (57:06):
You're just like hey, take advantage because you know
that there's gonna be,someone's gonna be down or
something's gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (57:10):
But the key to production is just always keeps
running, and that's uh, take,yes, because you know that
there's going to be someone'sgoing to be down or something's
going to happen.
Speaker 4 (57:14):
Yep, Something's going to happen.
Speaker 1 (57:15):
But the key to production is it just always
keeps running, and that includesthe workforce and the whole
team.
Yep, Yep.
Speaker 4 (57:21):
So yeah, it's a great place, so just full of good
people and good whiskey.
Speaker 1 (57:27):
Well, I'm so glad that you got to be at your
distillery.
Speaker 2 (57:30):
Me too, me too, thanks that you might be at your
distillery.
Me too, absolutely.
Thanks for making time for us.
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (57:34):
All right, everybody, we're going to finish this up
wwwscotchburbyscom for allthings scotchy bourbon, but also
check out Facebook, YouTube,Instagram and Instagram Probably
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Youtube Probably work, but youknow you roll.
And also on Apple, apple, apple,apple.
But whether you listen or watchus, make sure you like listen,
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Remember everybody good bourbonand whiskey, have a good time
(57:55):
with good friends and family.
Make sure that you drink spicy.
Don't drink and drive and liveyour life uncut and unfiltered.
And let's try this to see if Ican actually make it work All
right Belly music yeah, two,three, two, three, two, three,
seven.
Speaker 2 (58:12):
Outro Music.
Tiny here to tell you about Whiskey Thief Distilling
Company and their newly openedtasting room.
Whether you are up for afarm-to-glass distilling
experience on the Three BoysFarm in Frankfort, kentucky, or
an out-of-this-world tastingexperience in New Luton, you
won't be disappointed At bothlocations.
Their barrel picks all day,every day are like none other.
(00:24):
Each location features stationswith five barrels, each
featuring their pot-distilledbourbons and rye.
Once the barrels have beenthieved and tasted, you can make
a selection and thieve your ownbottle.
A day at Whiskey Thief, withtheir friendly staff and
(00:49):
ownership, will ensure you manygood times with good friends and
family.
Remember to always drinkresponsibly never drink and
(01:15):
drive and live your life, uncutand unfiltered.
(02:02):
Thank you, we'll be right back,all right, all right.
Welcome back to another podcastof the Scotchy Bourbon Boys.
Tiny and Whiskey here from 1792Barton's with Ross, cornelison
Ross.
It's so good to be back.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
It's great to be here , man, with you and with me.
Thanks for having us yeahabsolutely.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
I've been looking forward to this day for so long.
We've been talking back andforth and it's so cool from the
time I met you at the restaurant.
Scotland Scholar a couple yearsago and it's just like to find
(02:42):
out so much about you betweennow and then.
Learned a lot about meeting youfrom the last time we podcast,
but then watching you on stagesand talking about whiskey and
distilling and everything.
And you know well I mean, thisis well kind of you know we were
(03:03):
just talking about it earlierhow young you are.
It's it's kind of unprecedented, as far as you know, coming in,
but as far as them findingtalent, in my opinion it wasn't
even probably too hard of adecision because of who you are
and how you go about doingthings, just to meet you, if
(03:25):
anybody meets you and and it'snot like you're not out there,
you're out there in town, youmeet, you have your families
here, um, it's lots of thingshappening there and you know
everything.
But it still comes back to thisdistillery.
I mean, what's it like now thatyou I mean you definitely have
(03:46):
your feet on the ground and kindof whatever.
But this is, this is historyright here.
This is part of bardstown yepit's been.
You know it's been under othernames, but it's a fantastic
distillery.
Talk about what that's like toyou know, know.
Now be a part of this.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
One.
It's fantastic, so you covereda lot of things there.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Yeah, I do.
I only have one question yeah,with 17 subparts.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
Yeah, yeah it's.
You know, I've been here justshy of three years now and it's
been a really good journey.
You know, you never know quitewhat you're walking into when
you start out at a new place andI was really pleasantly
surprised.
The team that's present andmakes this whiskey happen every
(04:39):
single day is one of the best,and it's people who have started
the last three years.
It's people who have been here20 years or 30 years.
Um, it's just a really strongteam and I think everyone's very
proud of of the products wemake.
Um, and so to kind of be at thehelm of that team is, uh, one,
it's a little daunting, you know, for for many reasons, but two,
(05:01):
um, it's a really, it's areally great feeling.
So, but, yeah, we've, we've,you know my family, we live in
Bardstown and uh, there is, itis a great, great little place
to live, and, uh and Ray andraise a family.
So we've, you know, we didn'treally know anybody when we
moved here, and now we, you knowwe, we, we know quite a few and
(05:25):
uh, it's great to have thatcommunity, both from you know,
the industry, but also justother friends and neighbors that
we, that we've gotten to knowvery well.
So it's been a.
It's been a really good, uhchallenging it, sometimes just
like any anyone's life, but areally good and uh full of
growth three years here atbarton and in Bardstown.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Well, you mentioned the community and how.
Whenever?
you if you haven't been toBardstown.
You have to get here.
But this is the community wherethe Samuels you know, in
downtown they lived right nextdoor to the Beams the Beams
still live here.
They're talking about, you know, families with eight, nine
(06:06):
generations of people that havebeen distilling and then you're
now part of it.
But you would think if you camehere it might be what would you
say?
Overwhelming.
But when you get here yourealize that the bourbon
industry and the people in thatindustry, they're not arrogant,
(06:27):
they're not corporate, they'redown-home, hardworking people.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Very accepting of who comes into their community.
Speaker 4 (06:37):
Yeah, yeah, you really don't know what you're
going to walk into, but again,it's been an absolute pleasure
and it's been a lot of fun.
I was just in colorado for afew days and, uh, I was at a
store and the cashier, you know,he and I, just you know, I like
talking to people.
We just struck up aconversation and he, you know,
and he has family fromlouisville and he and he used to
(06:58):
live in louisville and he'slike he goes people from
kentucky, you know everyone,everyone just stops and talks
and you know, and is friendlyand chats, he goes you can tell
when people are from variousplaces he goes, but people from
Kentucky.
they're always nice and uh andalways are willing to have a
good conversation.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
So I was like, yeah, yeah, he goes, and that's why
I'm from Kentucky too.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
So, even though I'm not from Kentucky, I'm from
Indiana, but uh, that is.
But that has been justsomething that is so great about
Bardstown.
I feel like I've gotten to knowso many people very quickly
just because everyone does stopand talk and you know, you slow
down a little bit when you're inBardstown.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Well, it's so unique.
Bardstown is like a small towncommunity, and then you've got
Louisville, which is the samekind of history, but that's big
city history, yeah.
And then the frankfurtlexington area is like a
combination of the two, a biggercity, and but you know so,
(07:55):
throughout the, you know there's, there's that common bond
throughout that triangle ofdistillers.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
You know, yep, so there's no place like bardstown.
It's a.
It's a wonderful, wonderfultown.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
So I'm glad I'm here so many reasons so I have
nothing but respect for thecompany you work for, sazerac.
Yeah, everything that they howthey've gone about doing things,
uh, even to the point of howthey're not on.
You know they're one company'snot on the bourbon trail because
they want to.
The tours there were free.
(08:27):
You know that kind of thing.
They have a different wayoverall of producing whiskey,
but the whiskey and bourbonsthat they produce are so
fantastic, you know.
The family overall Even theirdistillery in Virginia A Smith
Bowman yeah, I mean the stuffthey're putting out there,
family overall.
Yeah, even their distillery invirginia and the top.
You know the all the foamingyeah yeah, I mean, the stuff
they're pulling putting outthere is really spectacular, and
(08:50):
the same thing with what youguys keep doing.
As far as, uh, the finishesthat you and and how you go
about doing it in the sweetwheat, I mean it's like I really
feel that that's a.
They got a good grasp not onlyon marketing but how to make you
making and putting out thewhiskey and
Speaker 3 (09:11):
make it the best possible?
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Is that kind of what you felt since you've been here?
Speaker 4 (09:14):
Yeah, I mean it's the team kind of across the board
from a quality and a productionstandpoint, is top notch,
without a doubt.
And so you know David Bach isover at A Smith Bowman.
You know Danny Kahn he used tobe master distiller here and now
oversees.
You know several parts ofSazerac on the distillation side
.
And then you have Harlan.
You know there is a wealth ofknowledge and experience.
(09:38):
You have Drew Mayville, masterblender.
So there's just they have anincredible team and you know, a
lot of times, you know, youthink you know something.
You got to talk, to talk tosome of those folks like I I
really don't know what I'mtalking about yet just because
they've seen so many differentthings, they've done so many
different blends or trieddifferent methods, uh, be it
(09:59):
from.
You know the grains they'reusing to uh to how they mash, to
how they ferment or distill orage, you know, and the grains
they're using to uh to how theymash, to how they ferment or
distill or age, you know, andthey're always, always trying
new things.
Um, so it's been yeah to to beable to be a part of that group,
um, is something really specialand something I you know I
didn't realize when I, when Ifirst got here, and now the
(10:21):
brevity of that is like wow,like this is, this is rare.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Well, I will tell you .
If you decide you want togarage age a couple of barrels
in Ohio, I will find some space.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
Probably not, unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
I'm just going to put it out there.
It doesn't work that way, doesit?
No, I wish we don't need awhiskey gate, is it a?
Speaker 4 (10:39):
bonded warehouse?
Probably not.
Sorry, I could make it one Okaygotcha, a bonded warehouse
Probably not.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Sorry, I could make it one.
Okay, gotcha, I'll just go,I'll Google it.
Okay, gotcha, no that's youknow.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
And then what's cool about that?
What you don't?
They've done so much that yourpersonality and the respect that
you instantly exude when youmeet you when I met you, there
was no doubt that kind of personthat you are.
You love what you're doing, theyou have the utmost respect for
(11:12):
the industry that you're in.
There's, there's, you know, andthat type of thing.
So I could see you if you cameup with something and everything
, finding out from the otherpeople if they've done it
already, to see if that you know, there's probably not mistakes,
but things that don't work out,Because when you're always
(11:32):
trying new things, that doesn'tmean everything's going to work
out.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
Yes, there's lots of learnings and we try not to
repeat the failed learnings butyes, there's many learnings and
even in the distillery, you know, when I first got here, I was
like, hey, you know, instead ofjust telling people you know
we're going to do it this way orwe're going to do it that way,
you know, you ask the questionlike, hey, you know, I've seen
it done this way in the past atother distilleries.
(11:56):
What have you tried here around?
You know this fermentationstyle for temperature control or
mashing, or what have you?
People are like, yeah, we triedthat 10 years ago.
It did not work.
All right, hey, tell me why itdidn't work.
And we go back and forth.
It's like, all right, yeah,probably don't need to try that
again.
Or like, hey, we should trythis again.
There's different technology orwe're better set up now with
(12:20):
controls or our equipment'sdifferent.
We should give this another shot.
So there was again, that isanother way of just.
You know, you talk aboutrespect in the industry,
respecting the people who havebeen here for a long time and,
you know, have helped make thisplace what it is today.
You know, taking taking theirlearnings and not and not just
thrown to the side and reallyembracing them.
(12:41):
So and again, that's just, thatis the value of having some
people here who have been here along time and using their
knowledge, dovetailing into that.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Since this facility is not open for tours, do you
want to just take a minute andkind of talk about this
distilling facility?
I mean immediately, as we drovein through the secured gate and
there you see a lot ofdifferences.
So, for those of you that havebeen on the trail and you're
used to seeing the shiny columnsstill and you have a little
trapdoor, you can look insidethe fermenter and, yeah, you
(13:14):
know, or you know it, and you'relike this is different, right,
because all your stuff ismassive and up on a hill.
Yeah, so it's an out, it's moreof an outdoor facility than it
is an indoor facility, like youwould see in most places on the
trail.
Speaker 4 (13:28):
Yeah, I mean there's a combination of both.
I mean the original distilleryat Barton 1792 was started in
like 1879.
That was Mattingly and Moore.
So if you ever hear the nameTom Moore, tom Moore was one of
the founders of the distillery.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
And one of the brands you make here.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
And one of the brands we make here, yep.
So and he and he ran until youknow the 1890s and then he left.
I think I've heard so manydifferent variations of the
story, so you know, if someone,if someone, has it written from
Tom himself, please let me know.
I'd love to see it.
But he ended up basicallyleaving and building another
distillery, I think, on theother side of the street, and
(14:08):
then the original distillery,you know, failed and he
basically combined the two andhe ran that until Prohibition.
And then I don't think we randuring Prohibition.
Some people have said we did.
I've never seen any records oranything that said we ran during
Prohibition.
But his son, cornelius, orConmore, ran it after
Prohibition for about 10 yearsand then there was a fire.
(14:30):
So there's always a fire,there's always a fire, there's
always a fire.
There shouldn't be any more.
We have a lot of methods andnew equipment and protections in
place, but after that fire,that is when Oscar Goetz.
He came in, bought the property, built the brand new distillery
and if you ever again goingback to visiting Bardstown,
(14:50):
there's the Oscar Goetz Museumof Bourbon History in town Great
historical spot to seeeverything from so many
different distilleries.
I think George Washington stillis in that museum as well, but
Oscar, he's the one who startedthe name Barton.
Before that it was the TomMoore Distillery and so Barton
(15:11):
Distilling was done by OscarGoetz and he owned it for 40
years or so, and so the nameVery Old Barton, that brand that
is still made out of here.
That was all from Oscar and hisgroup, so I think he was
originally a businessman inchicago, but yeah, and then
constellation owned it for about15 ish years and then sazerach
(15:34):
bought it in 2009, so they'vehad it almost 16 years that's
kind of a quick ownership storyof the place.
but yeah, it's uh, what you seetoday is the distillery from the
forties.
There's, yes, things havechanged, but there's a lot of
parts that are pretty much, uh,pretty much the same.
So some of our, some of ourfermenters a lot of those were
(15:54):
were built in 44, 45.
They are.
They are the fermenters fromafter the fire.
Uh, we, we have some new ones,we had some that were built in
the sixties and then we havesome that were built in the last
, you know, five to 10 years,but a lot of them and we still
use them today.
A lot of them, you know are arethe same ones and it's a lot of
sheet metal and piping, I meanif it's not broken.
(16:15):
Yeah, so they're all carbonsteel fermenters too.
They're not even.
They're not even stainless.
You can check them out later.
But yeah, the distillery it isa historic place and not on the
National Historic Registry butit is historic in so many ways.
So things I try not to thinkabout, but I also try to think
(16:36):
about is just the history ofthis place and honoring that
tradition that it's been a partof in bourbon history and
culture for so many years, right.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
So yeah, I mean it's.
When you come around, uh, youknow one, it's.
It's been a while.
It's not open to the public, soit's definitely.
This is an?
Uh, industrial.
You know, it's a working.
It's all about making bourbon,it's not about show.
(17:07):
And when you make bourbon andyou age bourbon, the buildings
around, even though they arefrom the 40s, they look like
they're from the 1800s becauseof the black.
You know the not.
You know what happens off of.
You know aging whiskey Yep, andBoudinio, yeah.
So you know aging whiskey Yep,and but Daniel, yeah.
So so I mean it's, but it's socool when you're here you feel
(17:29):
like it's been here forever.
Speaker 4 (17:31):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Right that feel.
I'm sure there's days where usfeels like it's been here
forever.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
So, honestly honestly , we we have really good
maintenance team and they havedone an extremely good job of
taking care of the equipmentthat we do have.
And if it's time to replacesomething, you know it's like,
hey, all right, it's, it's timewe will, we will replace that.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
So Right, it's not about like I was saying, it's
not about what it looks likebecause when you're showing a
distillery consistently, youhave to keep up and make
everything shiny and everythingfor the visitors, but here it's
just about making it beproductive and functional at the
highest level.
I'm not saying you're notfixing anything or anything like
that, but even the buildingsjust give you that feel of it's
(18:12):
been here a long time.
And then when we first startedcoming in 2019, the hill where
the rickhouses are on when youcome into Bardstown from Boston,
there was like no One two.
Now the whole hill iscompletely there's a lot of red
capsules.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
And then you know that's pretty much the standard
in the industry at the moment.
Yep, how else are you going toproduce this good stuff without
having it for everybody, right?
Speaker 4 (18:40):
Yep, this stuff is definitely in barrels more than
a couple of days, so you got tofind somewhere to store it.
But yeah, I mean, thedistillery is, even though it's
old, it's one.
Our team just does a good jobof taking care of it, keeping it
clean.
You know it.
I wouldn't, I don't know.
You know people would eat offthe floors, but it's, it's
pretty darn clean and thatthat's just part of good
(19:00):
sanitation practice for abiological process so yeah, if
you didn't keep it clean youryeast.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
That's, that's a whole thing.
Yeah it.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
So you have a 10-second rule, yeah yeah, no
yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
No no no.
But it's.
Yeah, they do a very good jobof maintaining it.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
When they were giving tours, I had taken the tour.
I think that was like right in2020 with Super Nash, and that's
one thing.
You just noted that this one,this was the, this was about
production yep producing and youknow it's just, it's the
coolest thing to go through.
Uh, steve coombs uh, you know,writer from louisville.
He basically talked about howmuch he loved that tour because
(19:44):
you did get the real goodfeeling of what it what, what
people are doing when they're,when their sole purpose is to
make whiskey.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
Yeah, you come in and you see it in 10 minutes.
You can see grain unloading tothe whiskey, coming off the
still and everything in between.
You go into the mill room andsee where it's being milled.
You can go to the mash floorand see our cookers and see how
that's going's going on.
You see the base for still.
You see the top of our still.
(20:12):
You go to our fermenters see,see all the see all the ferment
activity going on.
Um, you go to our doubler.
You can see it, you know,boiling in inside the doubler
from a, from a cyclast.
So, yeah, you and and again,it's not like it's this perfect
tour path.
It is is up and down the stairsthis way, that way, you know.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
And I think that day it was like 87 degrees outside.
Speaker 4 (20:36):
Yeah, probably yeah, and it's like we got up to the
top where the window was.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
You know everybody's Yep, yep.
Speaker 4 (20:43):
It was hot in there, but like you said it's great in
the winter, but it is kind ofcool At like you said it's great
, but what, but it is kind ofcool.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
At one point it was designed somewhat to show,
because you do have, you know,by the, still with the, um, the,
the, what is it?
The use your words.
Oh, my god the big b.
Speaker 4 (21:05):
no, yeah, but where it comes out into the oh the,
the tails box.
Thank you, yeah, you're good.
You're good, you're good,johnny, it was just like it was
gone, it's all right, you guysdon't have a vault though, do
you?
Speaker 1 (21:13):
No, no you don't have to have that.
Speaker 4 (21:16):
No, we have product tanks that are temporarily
holding tanks before we pump itup the hill to our larger
cistern tanks for the barrelwarehouse.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Well, the vault always to me on the tours was
always put in the spirit vaultis for show.
It's made it look so pretty,whereas you guys aren't.
That's not what it's about here.
Speaker 4 (21:32):
Nope, we're just making whiskey, High quality
whiskey, that is our goal.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Just give somebody who's watching and meeting you
for the first time just thebackground of where you actually
came from.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
What's your journey to get here?
Speaker 1 (21:46):
I mean honestly.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Not straightforward.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
But you didn't come from a small place that didn't
make whiskey.
That's true.
That's true.
Speaker 4 (21:56):
No, I've been.
You know, I think.
I think we'll go go back alittle further, back than even
whiskey, and I will still.
I will never forget sitting atthe kitchen counter and my mom
just asking me in high schooland being like what are you
going to do?
Tell me, tell me, what are yougoing to do?
She was throwing out all sortsof ideas and it was over
(22:19):
breakfast and I just rememberbeing like oh yeah, like cereal,
Like cereal is cool.
I, like you know, I can makecereal and it would be cool to
like make it and then people eatit every day.
I can make cereal and it wouldbe cool to like make it and then
people eat it every day.
So you know, like at that timeyou know, honey, bunch of Oats
or Lucky Charms, I don't know,it was probably one of those two
.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
I ate a lot of those two yes they are Absolutely so.
Speaker 4 (22:39):
You know, I started looking at food science programs
, you know, in college and likefood engineering programs, and I
ended up going to PurdueUniversity for bio and food
process engineering Thanks, andthat was and that was a great
call because they have a foodscience program and they have a
bio and food engineering program, so you really could.
You know it's designed to whereyou know you can do things at a
(23:01):
lab scale or at a veryindustrial scale, and the food
engineering side was more, wasmore at the large industrial
scale.
That was my whole goal.
Going to college was to go makecereal, which sounds funny, but
hey, you know what Somebody'sgot to do it.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Yeah, someone has to do it.
Speaker 4 (23:18):
But that, you know, my plans changed and I took
microbiology.
My.
It was my junior year ofcollege and it was just.
It was a mind-blowingexperience because it was just
this whole world that is aroundus, that is in us and, you know,
controls a lot of things andcreates a lot of great products.
(23:39):
Some of them right in front ofus is all done through
microbiology.
And so I said, yeah, I shouldprobably explore this some more.
So I tried everything I couldto get an internship at a
distillery or a brewery or afuel ethanol plant that summer
and ended up not because it was,I was, I was in the spring, um
too late, but you know I stuckwith it.
(24:00):
I said this is superinteresting, I'm going to figure
it out one way or the other,and ended up getting a job at
MGP ingredients in Lawrenceburg,Indiana.
So people are pretty familiarnowadays with MGP.
You know it's now known as theRoss and Squibb distillery.
Yeah, because MGP doesn't justdo whiskey it does a whole
mouthful, it does everything.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Yeah, that's why Ross is as you said.
Speaker 4 (24:26):
It is a wild and cool place.
So you know I didn't realizewhat I was walking into.
I started out as just adistillery shift manager, you
know.
So I'd manage the shift dayshift, night shift, afternoon
shift and I got to, you know, doall the learning or get to know
everything about how adistillery is ran From not just
whiskey, you know vodka or G&S,you know, made a lot of gin
(24:48):
there, but you just ran so manydifferent mash fills.
You ran so many differentfermentations and distillation
processes so you know thingswould change every single day.
So it wasn't just, hey, we'remaking one mash fill.
I got to learn.
I had the opportunity to learnso many different you know
mashing and distillationpractices in a very short span
(25:09):
of time, and so again didn'trealize how lucky I was.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Well, you were at a really exciting time for them
too, because as the NDP startedcoming out, that's right at the
time you were there when, all ofa sudden, all these people were
buying barrels and producingdifferent brands and it just
kind of exploded at that pointright, it definitely did.
Speaker 4 (25:29):
I started there in 2014 and I think so it was the
summer of 2014.
I think that fall of 2014,there was a few huge articles
that came out.
I was like that bottle thatyou're drinking was probably
made at a factory I think theyused the term factory in Indiana
and all of a sudden, it's likepeople started calling me like,
hey, I need more bourbon, I needmore bourbon, and so I was
(25:51):
during.
I was there from 2014 to 18when just this massive boom for
mgp occurred, and so I was.
I was a part of that and thatwas uh, whether whether you like
it or not, I mean it was.
It was a crazy time to be there.
So so I was a shift manager forfor a couple years and then I
was.
I transitioned to more like atechnical role.
(26:11):
I was the fermentationdistillation manager alongside
Ian Sturzman, who is now theirmaster distiller at Roslin's
Club.
So I managed part of theprocess.
He managed the other part ofthe process.
I was more on the front side.
So grain mashing, fermentation,we overlap, but he sometimes
helped manage that, but he wasmainly, you know, fermentation
(26:31):
or a little bit of fermentation,but a lot of distillation, dry
ice utilities.
But you know our pathsoverlapped all the time.
Our desks were next to eachother.
We're always, always talking,and so while this boom was going
on and we were making all thesedifferent mash fills, you know
I was trying to become thetechnical person on all these
different mash fills.
You know I was trying to becomethe technical person on all
these, on all these processchanges, and it was again.
(26:54):
I had no option but to learn.
You know all the technicalitiesand you know I think the
biggest thing that I learned, ina general statement, is what
effect do certain processchanges have on final distal
equality going into the barrel,coming off the still and so
being able to connect.
You know when this changehappens, or when this change
(27:15):
happens, knowing what effectthat will have on final product.
That is a very important skilland something that Greg Metz,
who is the master of, still atthe time.
I mean, he knew if you madethis change or that change, or
if you made this strong of achange, you know it would have
this final effect.
Or you had issues withfermentation?
(27:36):
Hey, this is probably what willhappen.
How do we okay, how do we notmake that happen again?
So I learned so many thingsfrom so many good people in
those four years.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
So when you came here , it wasn't as complicated, it
was a little bit more.
Fewer match bills Focused it'sfocused here right, A little bit
more focused.
There was kind of like yeah,that was like a distillery with
attention deficit All over theplace.
Speaker 4 (28:05):
Yeah, there was a lot going on there all the time and
I mean there's still a lotgoing on here.
But it's funny because, yeah,there is kind of just one system
here.
We do a lot of different mashfills because we produce a lot
of different things for Zazerac,but it is a little easier to
follow.
You know, we can improve thisprocess, or I think we can
(28:30):
improve this process.
So it's been a lot of processimprovement, but also, you know,
using what I learned at MGP andbeing like all right, I know if
we change this, we're mostlikely to see an effect on
distillate quality for thebetter in this case.
Or, hey, you know this keeps onhappening.
All right, how do we make surethat doesn't happen anymore, so
that we don't have that issuewith our distillate?
You know, it was never anythingyou know like major, major
(28:52):
issues.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
If it was, you know.
Speaker 4 (28:54):
CYMTI2 would not exist and people would not be
buying it.
So, but it's all about processimprovement in that case, oh and
people don't realize.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
sometimes it's also about yield.
Like you know, what the yeastdoes and how much it yields is
very important and that'saffected by humidity and it's
affected.
It's affected by so much and bya lot of things.
Speaker 4 (29:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
So your goal always is to make it yield.
You know you can, you canalways improve in those, those
areas.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
Yep, yep.
So making sure you get all thealcohol you're supposed to out
of out of your product is or outof the grain, is very important
, and there's a lot of thingsthat affect yield.
So from the grain you get in,the moisture in the grain, to
how you mill it.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Time of year too right Time of year, I mean,
that's one thing I didn'trealize.
But when you're buying grainand the corn's just been
harvested, the corn's prettyfresh, right, Yep.
And then when you buy grain atthe beginning of the growing
season, that's the end of theyear before.
Speaker 4 (29:52):
Yeah, and it's different, correct, it can be
different.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
I mean, you could almost distill different
products with different typesfrom the different times of the
year.
Right, if you wanted to.
Speaker 4 (30:02):
You could, we don't quite set our schedules up.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
like that, not like that.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
But you could.
Yeah, we just do so manydifferent things here and I'm
never, you know, because of mytime at MGP I'm not afraid to
say no to a project, or, youknow, look or be curious and try
new things.
Generally people are on board,but sometimes I have to convince
people a little bit, like Ipromise this won't be that bad.
This will be.
This is for the better.
(30:27):
Let's try this new thing.
Or people come to me with newideas, like, yeah, let's do it,
why not?
We can make this happen.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
So you've been here three years.
It's been in the barrel forthree years, yep, and you're
doing it.
I mean about when do you startusing the stuff?
What's the age point?
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Oh, it'll be a little ways.
That's one of the beauties.
I think of working for a largerorganization as opposed to a
craft distillery.
They have the economics and thecash flow to be able to say,
yeah, we're laying these barrelsup for eight years.
Where a smaller operation, theyhave to have cash flow.
Bourbon's one of the worstinvestments in the planet
because you lay it up today andI could sell it maybe in four
(31:10):
years and then it's not going tobe as good as it would be if I
was selling it in eight yearsand not as good as ten years.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
But the worst thing is it's tempting to sell it at
two, at just the level, andit'll sell.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
It won't be very good .
We've had some two-year-oldburbs.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
There's a lot of stuff on the shelf, not from
here, but from places where it'snot as good, but people still
buy it.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
Yeah, I mean it's cheaper For science.
It's a lot cheaper and it'scheaper.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
And they usually proof it down so that they can
improve the yield from barrel.
And I mean, there's just thebourbonomics of it, right be
here where it's like, yeah, wecan wait, we don't have to,
we're okay with that.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Well, yeah, establishment is not a startup.
It's always a good thing.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
Yeah, to be honest with you, I think that's one of
the crown jewels of the Sazeracformula is they're not pushed.
I mean, if you need to leave it, leave it To be honest with you
.
I think it's one of the reasonswhy the products in general
from the family is so consistentand way above average.
Yeah so, and it allows you theopportunity to play around with
(32:18):
some things and make someexceptional things Correct.
Maybe we should talk about thebrand for a little bit, just a
minute.
You know 1792,.
Obviously small batch isrelatively available across the
country.
Yep, I don't think there's anystates that you don't distribute
to.
Speaker 4 (32:31):
Now that I know of.
I'm not sure, but not that Iknow of Well.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
I go to liquor stores .
In a lot of places I usuallysee small batch.
Speaker 4 (32:38):
That's good.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Okay, but I know with foolproof and sweet wheat,
sweet wheat's been kind of aunicorn for me.
It just doesn't ever seem tohit the shelf and when it does,
it disappears.
And obviously the 12 producttoo is another one that just as
soon as it sits on the shelf,people that know bourbon are
buying that 12 year bottle.
(33:00):
But yeah, maybe talk a littlebit about what the differences
are and why you know I'm curiousto hear about sweet wheat,
because obviously that's myfavorite of the lineup.
But a little bit about what youdo here that makes 1792 special.
Speaker 4 (33:12):
So 1792 as a product Constellation actually started
that back in 2002.
So I don't know if everybodyknows that, but that was called
1792 Ridgewood Reserve and ithad the burlap neck label and it
had the wooden cap.
Woodford Reserve did notappreciate that name, probably
for many reasons, so it was alittle too close.
(33:34):
So there's a quick lawsuit backthen and it quickly became 1792
.
Ridgemont Reserve is what itwas called for a long time, I
think until about 2012, 2013.
That is when I saw the burlapneck label and the wooden cap
and it was very, you know, itlooked like it was from down
home Kentucky and about 2013 orso they did a revamp and that is
(33:58):
what you see today, to whereit's a little more you know.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
You went for a unique bottle shape.
Yeah well, it was a similarbottle shape.
Speaker 4 (34:06):
But it got the gold cap.
It went for a more you knowkind of art deco, refined look
on the neck labels with a lot ofgold features to it.
So yeah, they completelychanged kind of the branding on
it back in.
You know that was almost 12years ago so.
But yeah, small batch is whatused to be Ridgemont or
Ridgewood Reserve and theychanged just to 1792 small batch
(34:28):
.
But 1792 is the year Kentuckybecame a commonwealth state in
in the United States.
So it's paying homage to that.
But pretty much every bourbonthat we make is it's a high rye
mash bill.
So plenty, plenty of ryeoutside of the sweetweed.
The sweetweed is the one weedbourbon.
That is a part of the 1792lineup, which I like.
(34:49):
Sweetweed too, I'm the fan, butI'm a rye bourbon guy.
So yeah, the high rye mash billprovides a lot of, you know,
spice that you normally get froma rye than you do, versus like
the soft and sweet notes thatyou get from a weeded bourbon,
which are very present insweetweed.
But the other part that kind ofmakes it unique.
(35:09):
And every distillery has theiryeast strain.
1792 is not any different inthat sense.
But our yeast strain produces aton of different esters,
infusal oils during fermentation.
One of those esters, the mainone, is called isoamyl acetate,
which is that really banana?
Speaker 2 (35:23):
forward.
Should I say that?
Speaker 4 (35:23):
three times fast.
Yeah, no.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
I don't think I could , but yeah isoamyl acetate.
Speaker 4 (35:34):
So that produces.
There you go, just not fast ina row.
You know if you say it a thirdtime, it's going to appear in a
row, gotcha yeah.
But, it's producing a ton ofbanana notes and that, along
with the rice spice, and thenall the notes that you get from
being in a barrel for quite awhile you know those
butterscotch, dark sugars,vanilla caramel and you have a
really nice recipe.
You have like a bunch of bakingspice, you have a bunch of
(35:57):
lovely banana and fruity flavorsand then you have everything
from the barrel.
So I think in it it's at 93.7proof.
So it's high, but it's not toohigh of a proof, it's
approachable.
It doesn't hide itself in acocktail, you know.
It stands out generally if youput it in one, but not.
But it's not overbearing at thesame time.
(36:17):
So I love a small batch forvery.
You know I can't tell you howmany barrels go into a small
batch, but we are particularabout how we, how we do our
small batch blends.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Um yeah, because small batch for some people are
10 barrels and small batch forothers are 16 barrels.
Speaker 4 (36:31):
Yeah, there's no definition for small batch.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
So we're not small?
No, a small batch fits around.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
It could be worse.
You could be tiny.
Speaker 4 (36:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
You could do a special tiny batch.
Speaker 4 (36:45):
Yep, tiny batch, yeah , I like that.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Put it in the little 200 milliliters Yep Tiny batch.
Yeah, I like that.
Put it in the little 200milliliters Yep Tiny bottle.
That makes sense there you go.
Speaker 4 (36:55):
You really should be in marketing.
That's good.
Sweet wheat is just soft andapproachable.
It's only 91.2 proof and again,it's already weeded so you
don't have some of those biggerand bolder flavors that you get
from from rye.
It's soft and sweet from fromwheat grain, even when you are
(37:16):
making it in the in thedistillery, when you walk
through the still you know whenyou're making sweet wheat really
.
Yeah, there's a completelydifferent aroma to the place, um
than if you're making 1792 orsome of our other mash bills.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
You could also say on the day that you're doing it
when you're in Barstown with thewinds blowing you can tell the
difference too.
Generations of people havesmall cooks, the cooks that you
guys do.
Speaker 4 (37:37):
Yes, they have Cooks in our dry house happily going.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Also, next time you're doing sweet, we give a
call and come down and do akegger, okay.
Speaker 4 (37:49):
I don't know if that would be allowed, but it sounds
great, we just do it down thestreet.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Yeah, we don't make a lot of it Again.
Speaker 4 (37:54):
A lot of our production is dedicated to our
rye bourbon production becauseit goes into so many different
things, but it is really fun tomake sweet wheat.
It's a great product and we'revery particular about the
barrels that go into it becauseit is a smaller release every
year.
So if some barrels aren't ready, we say, hey, they're not ready
(38:14):
.
All right, it might be a littlesmaller, smaller release than
we want to this year becausetiny had the opportunity to grab
this year's passion.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Yeah, it's real good.
Speaker 4 (38:19):
I mean it's super good very particular about the
barrels that went into that.
So, kudos, yeah, I mean it'sjust it's last year and this
year it just was.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
But this year, like I said, I even picked up a small
batch and compared it and it'salmost like no comparison.
Speaker 4 (38:37):
Oh, I mean again the process hasn't changed too much.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
No, it's not the process, it's what you put into
it and what the flavor.
Speaker 4 (38:43):
It's still the general flavor profile that
you're shooting for.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
But, like I said, there's some aspects of it that
were so rich and dark that thatwas for the bourbon drink, the
bourbon bourbon drinker, yeah,and now it's like I said, it's
kind of like you've opened it upand I'm not your team has you
and your team yep, and you cantell that it is definitely when,
when you pick small batches forme and I drink so much small
(39:08):
batches like they're not alwaysthe one that we're looking for
because of the it's going forthe consistency there's they're
they're not always the one thatwe're looking for because of the
it's going for the consistencythere's they're.
They're not always so, um,complex, right, the complexity
happens in in the specialreleases, but I'm always tasting
people's small batches becausethat is what you sell most of
and it's something, and thatthis year's small batch to me,
(39:30):
it would be something that Iwould like.
After tasting and doing it, Iwould keep drinking it yeah,
that's what I'm saying, that'sgood, whereas you know there's
900, almost a thousand bottlesin my basement and when I go
down I would consider havingthat's in the you know
non-podcasting, you know library.
Yeah, I'm just excited what you, what, what the distillery now
(39:50):
is putting out and that it seemsto be so much more it, it'll be
so much more for everybody.
Speaker 4 (39:55):
Yeah, and that's, that's a goal.
I kind of compare small batchesat you know, across the board
to you know.
I'm going to use another,another Bardstown staple,
haydorn Haydorn Bakery.
I don't know if people thosewho have visited.
Bardstown.
I have eaten a lot of donutholes from 8-Orin's Bakery over
the years but you know it's thatsimple glazed donut or it's the
(40:18):
donut holes Like.
It's one thing that you knowshould be consistent all the
time and you know, if you haveone, you know exactly what it's
going to taste like.
That should be our 1792 SmallBash.
There's no questions that it'sgoing to be good and that's got.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
be that one of the hardest parts of your job is
because you could have blendedfor you that just you're like
wow, this is really good, butit's not the flavor profile yeah
for it.
Speaker 4 (40:39):
Yeah.
So managing flavor profile isinsanely important.
But I've seen, and I'm suresadarik is open to this.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
But, like when you're talking, I what I've seen in
the six years that I've reallybeen into this, the whiskey of
the taste of the whiskey ofeverything has gotten better as
those six years.
And I really think it has to dowith one the.
It's been such perfect Asianconditions in Kentucky over the
last five or six years of thatheat and the cold and everything
(41:08):
that's been happening.
Now this year it might become alittle waterlogged but yeah,
you know, cause there's a lot ofwet.
Yeah, but overall it just seemedto me like Buffalo Trace.
That in itself is there's a lotof.
This year's release has like aton more caramel that to me that
it had in the past, you know.
Speaker 3 (41:25):
So it's the same thing when I'm noticing there.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
It just seems like so if you're on point on the batch
, you don't mind it being alittle bit sweeter or whatever.
Right, that evolution is okay,but you're getting the quality
out of the barrels Correct.
You know most places arepicking like they have to cherry
pick the stuff to age longerbecause they know this age.
Not every barrel is going toage the full 12 years and be
(41:49):
good.
Speaker 4 (41:49):
You know you've got to get those into the I've
already said aside barrels for afew years, 12 years too.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Make sure they don't go into the wrong thing.
That's what you're saying Ithink the amount of barrels that
are really good are superavailable.
That part is just more becauseof the aging and the heat and
everything that's been happening.
I just think I've noticed thedifference.
That's good.
Speaker 4 (42:13):
Yeah, kentucky.
There's a reason kentucky is agreat play stage.
A whiskey those temperaturevariations which we track uh are
, are fantastic.
So I mean it gets hot in thetop of a warehouse.
I mean it'll, it'll approach100, 110 you guys, don't you?
Speaker 2 (42:27):
do you want to?
Speaker 1 (42:28):
I'm sorry do you rotate them?
We do not rotate, you take them.
So you gotta grab them off thetop before all hell breaks loose
.
Speaker 4 (42:35):
Yeah, I mean, and that's kind of where the
blending part comes into it andagain where you know, probably
my biggest learnings have beenover the last couple years
because I did nothing aroundblending and maturation when I
was at MGP.
It was strictly in thedistillery, nothing in the
warehouses, and so I was like Ihave to learn this side of the
(42:56):
process because it matters somuch.
If you have a barrel at the topfor x number of years or at the
bottom for the same number ofyears, those two barrels are
going to be very differentbecause they have not seen the
same temperature fluctuations,which means they haven't seen
the same amount of interactionwith the barrel and the flavor
is completely different.
And then what happens if youblend those two together or if
you blend them in differentratios, or do you take barrels
just from the middle of thewarehouse?
So you know messing and playingand experimenting with, you
(43:20):
know what I call tiers of awarehouse and how that fits into
small batch and the otherproducts.
That has been probably thebiggest learning that I've had
in the last couple of years.
So it all goes back to quality.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
So how involved are you in the warehouse management
side of things?
As far as I mean, are youtaking one product and it's
mostly the top of the otherrickhouse and then, if you need
to do a small batch flavorprofile, maybe a couple from the
sides and maybe a couple fromthe bottom center?
I mean, are you getting picky?
Yeah, we're getting prettypicky.
Speaker 4 (43:54):
So things like foolproof, a lot of those come
from the tops of our warehousesbecause you know, the proof on
that is 125 proof.
And so you know, what you seein our, in our rickhouse, is
that the uh, if you stay in themiddle of the house, and most
from up on top of the hill, ifyou're in the middle of the
rickhouse, it'll stay around 125proof.
If you are at the top it willgo up.
It it's hotter, it's drier, andif it's drier you lose more
(44:16):
moisture than you do alcohol,and so the proof will go up to
130, 135, and 140.
If you're in the bottom of thewarehouse it'll go below a
little under 125.
So we're always looking more sotowards the top of the
warehouse for foolproof.
So in small batch we're lookingat all parts of the warehouses.
We also have warehouses thatsit down off the side of the
(44:38):
hill and those warehouses agecompletely differently than
those on the top of the hill andage completely differently than
the ones that sit to Cathedral,main or New Haven Road,
depending on where you are onthat road and what you want to
call it.
So it isn't just where it is inthe warehouse, it's also where
that warehouse is on theproperty, and so there's all
these variables.
(45:01):
So, yeah, I would say thatthere's a big formula for small
batch.
But I sit down with our folksand we go through our inventory
and say, all right, for thismonth's or this week's small
batch, this is where we're goingto pull barrels from.
Yeah, that seems about right.
Small batch, you know, this iswhere we're going to pull
barrels from.
You know, yeah, that seemsabout right.
Let's do the calculation, yep,okay, and then we pull samples
(45:21):
from a number of those barrelsand they combine those, compare
it against our standard forsmall batch.
So, yeah or nope, that's alittle off.
We should, you know, subtracthere or there.
So we do that with all ourproducts.
So it's a very.
Everyone thinks, oh hey, justtake some barrels and dump them.
And this is, you know, it'sautomatically consistent.
There is a lot of work thatgoes into it.
Speaker 1 (45:43):
So I got to with a distilled, a blender blend, one
time for a batch.
So I had 13 different barrels.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
That's cool barrels.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
That's cool, but he had two barrels on the podcast
that he put samples in, right.
Yeah.
So there was two barrels.
One was bland, it was so it waslike the most bland whiskey
I've ever tasted in my life.
And the other one was spicy,super spicy.
And he agreed with me on myassessment of the barrel and I
was like, so why is that inthere?
And he's like, well, you dothis, you do this and all of a
sudden you taste it and you likethe flavor.
But it's so hot that that's nothow it goes.
So then you use that, use ablend barrel, and then same
(46:16):
thing if it's too bland, itneeds to be sliced up a little
bit.
You use a spicy barrel and he'slike uh, you know, I like to
use partial barrels.
I can't, I can't have halfbarrels laying around, but
that's how you do it.
It's the partial ratio.
So, and it's like god, there'sa lender, you need those, you
need the, you need the barrels.
That they all aren't perfect.
Speaker 3 (46:34):
Really beautiful, complete whiskey Single barrels,
you know, single barrels are sogood.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
They all have their attributes, but you can use them
to make the small batch.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
Well, you actually have to have a small batch?
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Yeah, because if you, what would you do with the
barrels?
You know, because it's a blendof everything put together to
make that.
Yep, because it's a blend ofeverything together to make that
Yep, Make it great.
You know, you guys don't seemto have it but a lot of places
well, so barrels like, let'sjust say they don't make it.
You know, I know Orphans.
Speaker 4 (47:06):
The ones that don't fit your flavor profile.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
What do you got to do with?
Speaker 4 (47:07):
those.
Yeah, I mean we have a reallylarge single barrel program here
.
So the size rack barrel selects.
So there's a lot of fun andunique barrels that get put into
that program Okay, which isalways great.
So we don't do tours here.
But the one way that peoplecome on site is for single
barrel picks.
So we take them up to awarehouse see it and you choose
(47:28):
from a number of barrels andsome of them are kind of
standard flavor profile.
You know that rice bites, thatbanana, that butterscotch and
caramel like.
So, yeah, that's classic, I'mgoing to.
There's a lot of them that arelike well, this is, this is
different, this is unique, andso that's the fun part of
picking a single barrel, um, andeven sister barrels.
You know two barrels that werenext to each other.
I would fill it on the same dayand sit in the warehouse for,
(47:51):
yeah, entirety.
It's like how are those barrels?
Like, there is no way.
It's like, no, like here's thedata, here's the sheet, like I
promise you, people struggle tobelieve it sometimes.
I struggle to believe itsometimes.
Speaker 1 (48:04):
Well, that just shows you in the barrel-making
process how important the woodis.
I mean, you know, a barrel.
Those two barrels weren't madeout of the same two trees.
You know what I mean.
There's probably 14 trees inthe thing.
Whatever, and that's the reallycool thing about whiskey it's a
very straightforward processwith so many intricacies?
Speaker 4 (48:24):
Yeah, there's a lot of.
You know.
I would say the whiskey as awhole is starting to do a lot of
analytics around.
You know where that tree isfrom, who, who made that barrel,
how that barrel is beingtoasted or charred, how it's
being seasoned and what are thefinal effects.
So that computer is.
There's a lot of work, you know, and we are not.
We are not keeping our head inthe sand either.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
On there was an irish whiskey brand, not whatever,
but they had barrels.
They had like 14 distillersacross Ireland and they were
pulling barrels from all of themmaking their wines, but every
single blend was documented,with every single barrel age.
I mean, the information onlinewas so crazy and the only way I
(49:09):
can do it is because of computertechnology.
And computer technology isreally, I mean, what Buffalo
Trace is doing to match thewarehouses, that everything's
made on on the new warehouse,down to controlling the
environment, is nothing short ofspectacular.
Speaker 4 (49:24):
Yeah, they do some really cool things over there.
So, yeah, there's a lot ofanalytics and technology going
into it now.
So, and that's just another waythat you know we get to make
sure we make great whiskey.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Right, and plus you're all.
Now we're saying that you'renot going to be at the festival
this year.
Sorry, Yep, so maybe maybe acouple weeks after it's just
made an appearance at Bourbon onthe Banks.
There you go.
Speaker 4 (49:49):
That would be good.
That's over in right.
Speaker 1 (49:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (49:53):
That's a Saturday, one Saturday with everybody
running around.
I'll run around with the kidsstrapped.
To me that sounds good.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
Or learn from the game.
Speaker 4 (50:03):
No, that doesn't happen.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
That doesn't exist.
That's a five or a four, andthey're all in there.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
I'll give you one word of advice.
That's four.
He's pretty sure it's just four.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
Two, you're not outnumbered.
But as soon as you decide to gobeyond that, just for the rest
of your life, you're going to beoutnumbered.
Speaker 4 (50:24):
I'll take that advice .
Thank you, Two each one canhandle it.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
I just remember having the third one run over
and you're just like who's goingto get that one?
I got this one.
Speaker 4 (50:41):
That was just like three different directions, two
people all right.
Speaker 1 (50:43):
Two is it, I don't know.
But you know, I'm not saying,but I'm just like I could try
that it does.
Speaker 4 (50:52):
I could try that it does so everything you know,
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (50:55):
So you heard of Dr Spock.
What does that mean?
It's okay.
There's a couple new thingsthat you guys got going on in
the right eventually right, andso everybody's waiting for that
one.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
So once that's out, we'll have you on for the
podcast.
Speaker 4 (51:12):
Yeah, that'd be great .
Speaker 2 (51:13):
Unless we get to Canton.
Speaker 4 (51:16):
Like.
Speaker 2 (51:16):
I said I have a family up there.
Speaker 4 (51:21):
So every once in a while I drive through that area.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
It'll be like turning back to East Wing, but just
basement.
Speaker 4 (51:26):
Gotcha, there you go.
You know I like that area a lot, like outside, just kind of
northern Ohio.
There's so many little familyfarms.
It's in some ways that thereare some similarities to
kentucky not not a lot, but allthe like very local produce
farms, uh, a lot of farms, yeah,a lot of farms.
Markets, um, but just the justput for everything local up in
(51:47):
that area is always cool.
Our friends own, uh, on aflower farm up in near, uh, what
is the town?
busiris I think, yeah, that'swhere I'm so yeah, so and uh,
and they bought an old, an oldfarmhouse and I think five or
six acres came with it and theydo, you know, you pick flowers
and produce and everything, andthat's that's what they do these
days and that is, and they wereboth, you know, in
(52:08):
manufacturing and corporatebeforehand and they and they
love it, and it's just like,yeah, we we're one of a lot of
people who do this up here andyou see a lot of that down here
in Kentucky too.
People, just they're just sucha great local push and presence
between both areas.
Speaker 1 (52:21):
The only thing I would say that's different when
I travel back and forth is thatthere's a Southern drawl accent.
Speaker 3 (52:28):
Other than that the people are so similar and it's
just like you know, you guys,almost the definition it's part
of the South, it's not part ofthe South.
Speaker 4 (52:42):
And so there's an aspect of the Midwestern work
that is definitely allthroughout Kentucky, you know,
and the people, so I get to goto a lot of nice places so Ohio
and Kentucky and Indiana andColorado and Colorado every once
in a while.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (52:54):
So yeah, indiana.
The only difference betweenIndiana is there's just like way
more agriculture.
That goes on.
Speaker 4 (53:01):
You know when you're, there's a lot of corn right
exactly it's just not.
Speaker 3 (53:05):
You know, ohio have sections, kentucky has sections
but that's not all.
Speaker 1 (53:08):
And then you've got Indiana and it's like not
sections, it's defining, it'snot quite as brash to go.
Speaker 2 (53:14):
So last question all right, so so can't tell you the
number of times I'm having a youknow a tasting or you know a
little dram with friends andthey're like man.
Can you imagine your own jobwas to just sit around and drink
this mattress stiller?
We've talked so many messages,stillers.
I've heard the stories.
Just write to me what youraverage day looks like, so that
(53:34):
they can get betterunderstanding that it's not show
up.
What's your dress like?
Are you over with your clearglass and sitting around and
buying a nice pour out of afour-year barrel?
Speaker 4 (53:42):
That would be nice, I would like that job, but you, I
don't think I would like thatjob.
Yeah, that might get boringafter a while, though.
Speaker 2 (53:56):
I can tell you my, my job is not boring after a month
.
Speaker 4 (53:57):
yeah, yep, yeah, uh, or cirrhosis wanted to.
Yeah, it's um.
You know, I think that'sprobably one of my favorite
aspects of this role is, youknow, I'm kind of the technical
lead in a lot of ways in thestory and also people lead and
so, um, you know, the people inthe stilly and the barrel
operations report, report upthrough through me in the
organization and then, um, but Ireport up through me and the
organization.
But I'm also seen as the onewho has to like, hey, if we're
(54:18):
having issues, well, we're anawesome team, you guys better
figure it out, or you want topush and improve the systems,
you are the ones who are goingto do that.
It's not like we have anotherhuge engineering team that is
making all these changes.
We're the ones who know theprocess and so we are the best
suited to help push the changesand improve the process as well.
So it can be everything from.
(54:39):
You know every morning.
You know we have meetingsbetween us and maintenance.
We have our manager meetings.
You know we talk about.
You know any issues that we mayhave about troubleshooting.
We celebrate our wins, wecensor every single day and then
you know after issues that wemay have about troubleshooting
we celebrate our wins.
We censor every single day andthen you know after that it can
(55:00):
be you know a whole differentgame every day.
Mondays I try to do a lot offolks on censoring.
Tuesdays can be more capitalprojects and just project-heavy
days.
Wednesdays there's a bigemphasis on maintenance, like
larger weekly maintenancemeetings between distillery
warehouse and our maintenanceteam.
Thursdays generally back toprojects or, you know, catching
up with people.
And Fridays well, today,Friday's podcast day.
Speaker 1 (55:23):
And we appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (55:23):
Yeah, and Fridays can kind of be anything and
everything.
Speaker 1 (55:26):
I'm just glad you're not comparing it to sales day.
Speaker 4 (55:28):
Yeah, no.
So yeah, you know, we're justinvolved in a lot of different
things and you've got to put intravel out there.
No, you know I don't do a lotof traveling for work, and it's
okay.
You know I'll go do visitsmaybe a couple times a quarter,
but I mean, even that's quite abit, you know.
(55:49):
And we do a lot of single barrelpicks here.
You know, I'll maybe do acouple a month, but our team
hosts all of those.
It's people who work in thestore in the barrel, so you
don't have a tour guide.
Tour guides are very educated,but they're not doing the work
today.
This is Brian, our stillmanager.
When he leads a barrel pick,you can ask him about anything
in the stillery and he'll tellyou exactly how it's done in in
(56:13):
great or rusty or awesome.
Who's our chemist?
You know, you want to knowanything.
The chemistry behind the Austinis the guy to talk to.
If you're lucky, I mean, that'sthat.
That's your guy.
So, um, so yeah, there's we.
We do a lot of things here, notlike pigeonhole, which is uh,
which is great.
We don't get bored, sosometimes overwhelming, but we
don't get bored.
So I think think that answersyour question of a typical day,
(56:34):
but really it's more like atypical week and it makes all
the different aspects.
Speaker 1 (56:38):
Like you said, what's one thing about the job itself
is kind of cool, In fact, thatyou have so many different areas
that you're a part of, and ifit needs to be trail shot, you
either find the right people todo it or you know how to do it
yourself.
But you're never bored becauseusually every day brings a
different challenge.
Absolutely, and that's onethat's my man and that's what
keeps me going.
It's just like I've 20 years,I've learned everything and
(57:01):
wherever I need it, I'm going,or there is some days when it's
running nice and you got thecrew going, you just kind of sit
back.
Speaker 3 (57:06):
You're just like hey, take advantage because you know
that there's gonna be,someone's gonna be down or
something's gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (57:10):
But the key to production is just always keeps
running, and that's uh, take,yes, because you know that
there's going to be someone'sgoing to be down or something's
going to happen.
Speaker 4 (57:14):
Yep, Something's going to happen.
Speaker 1 (57:15):
But the key to production is it just always
keeps running, and that includesthe workforce and the whole
team.
Yep, Yep.
Speaker 4 (57:21):
So yeah, it's a great place, so just full of good
people and good whiskey.
Speaker 1 (57:27):
Well, I'm so glad that you got to be at your
distillery.
Speaker 2 (57:30):
Me too, me too, thanks that you might be at your
distillery.
Me too, absolutely.
Thanks for making time for us.
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (57:34):
All right, everybody, we're going to finish this up
wwwscotchburbyscom for allthings scotchy bourbon, but also
check out Facebook, YouTube,Instagram and Instagram Probably
not.
Youtube Probably work, but youknow you roll.
And also on Apple, apple, apple,apple.
But whether you listen or watchus, make sure you like listen,
subscribe, comment and leave afeedback.
Remember everybody good bourbonand whiskey, have a good time
(57:55):
with good friends and family.
Make sure that you drink spicy.
Don't drink and drive and liveyour life uncut and unfiltered.
And let's try this to see if Ican actually make it work All
right Belly music yeah, two,three, two, three, two, three,
seven.
Speaker 2 (58:12):
Outro Music.
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