August 23, 2024 • 52 mins
Today we talk with Mike Berliner and Anu Seppala about their book, Russia to America: A Guide to Ayn Rand Homes and Sites. We cover Miss Rand's journey from Czarist Russia to the United States and the homes and business offices she lived in/used during her remarkable life.
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Show notes with links to articles, blog posts, products and services:
- Russia to America: A Guide to Ayn Rand Homes and Sites
- 100 Voices: An Oral History of Ayn Rand
- Night of January 16th
- September 2 (Change Your Life. Read Atlas Shrugged)
- Bosch Fawstin's drawing (print), September 2
- Greenhorn
- Richard Neutra
- Hollywood Studio Club
- Cecil B. DeMille
- Ouray, Colorado
- Podcasting 2.0
- TrueFans
- Frank Lloyd Wright
- The Fountainhead
- Perfect 36
- 36-24-36 (measurement)
- "Why I like Stamp Collecting"
- Ayn Rand: A Sense of Life
- The Music of We the Living
- How Music Saved a Life: Ayn Rand and Operetta
- Emmerich Kálmán
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Blair (00:08):
Good afternoon and good evening, ladies and gentlemen.
Today on the secular foxhole podcast, we havetwo guests, Michael Berliner and Anu Sepala.
I hope I pronounced that correct.
They are the authors of a compelling book
called Russia to America, a guide to Ayn Randhomes and sites.
Mike, Anu, how are you doing?Well, great, great.
(00:32):
How were.
How were the photos obtained?
Did miss Rand have many of them herself, ordid you.
Did you and Anna Anu scour the archives, so tospeak?
Mike (00:43):
Anna, you want to start with that? Hoping you could hear me?
I guess we've lost her.
Blair (00:49):
Yeah, probably.
Martin (00:50):
She's online, but I don't see any wavelength, so we.
Mike (00:56):
I'll go ahead and answer that yes to everything we had.
We did scour the archives, but there are about150 images in the book, and just 30 of them
are from her own collection of photos that sheeither brought with her from Russia or were
(01:17):
sent to her by her family.
So 20% of the.
Of the total.
And the rest are.
Are either images that we took of archives,items, took people in LA or in Russia or New
(01:37):
York, of the buildings, the houses that shelived in.
So there's a big variety.
I can't tell you how distinct from the
archives, but probably well over half.
But the vintage photos are ones that of her
family, particularly once that she broughtwith her from Russia when she got out in 1926.
Blair (02:01):
Yes. Okay. Okay. Now, who are or what was the Kerensky revolution in 1917?
How old was she then?I think she was, what, twelve, maybe?
Mike (02:11):
She was.
Well, yeah.
And at that time, Kerensky was AlexanderKerensky, and he was the head of a provisional
government that lasted a few months before theBolshevik October Revolution took over and
chased him out of the country.
(02:34):
He was the last hope for any sort of sanity in
Russia.
It was the revolution that she watched, the
fighting that she watched in 1926, inFebruary, that was the.
Known as the February Revolution or theKerensky Revolution.
And it was anti czarist.
There was a combination of different groups
(02:56):
for different places on this politicalspectrum fighting against the tsar, and it
took place only in St. Petersburg.
It was not a nationwide revolution that far.
And the tsar abdicated.
And Kerensky.
Korensky was her big hero, but she was thatage.
(03:17):
He thought, you know, he was the.
He was the hope for Russia, and he was a
dashing figure, and he turned out to be a realloser, which she recognized pretty early on,
maybe not at age twelve, but later.
That compromiser didn't really have any solid
ideas.
(03:37):
He loved mother Russia, and she met him
actually, in the 1940s at a party when she wasin New York.
And I think he turned out to be even worsethan she thought he was.
So she blames him.
This is in her biographical interviews.
She blames him for not being what he couldhave been.
(04:00):
And he actually thinks that he could haveprevented the Soviets from, I mean, the
Bolsheviks from thinking over, because he wasso beloved that Russia had to fight.
And they do this often.
So I see, I see.
Blair (04:15):
Now, what's, one of the things that I was really surprised at in your book,
Washington, when her family vacationed inFrance in 1914.
Of course, World War one was underway, Iguess, and apparently, the way you have it in
the book, the ocean liner before hers and theone after hers were sunk, but she was
(04:42):
apparently, obviously lucky to be alive afterthe bombing of the shipping lanes.
Mike (04:48):
So that's.
Yeah. You know, when you put that into
perspective, think of all the things thatcould have happened.
Yes.
Not just the bombings, but they were attacked
by bandits in the Crimea, all sorts of thingsthat could have ended her life in a second.
(05:12):
And I think, God, where would I be?That didn't happen.
There would have been no objectivism, though.
You know, it's.
But that's.
I think you named that, that's the scariest
thing that, going through, I guess, that theNorth Sea and the U boats.
Blair (05:30):
So what does that mean? Fortunate.
Fortunate.
Mike (05:34):
Fortunate, yeah.
Blair (05:36):
For the world.
Yes. Now, another thing that I didn't know is
I knew her father was a pharmacist and that hehad bought an apartment building in 1916,
apparently where they came back from.
The Karami, I believe.
Mike (05:53):
Right.
Blair (05:56):
And then that's where she finally gets to America, from that apartment building.
But can you.
Before we get to that, can you.
Her school years, can you describe her schoolyears for me?
Mike (06:09):
Well, uh, we know something.
She talks about that in her, in biographical
interviews, the classes that she liked thatshe didn't do well in.
She said she was particularly bad at anythingthat, that was more physical.
Like there was an art class that she didn'tlike, sewing she was totally inept at, but in
(06:37):
the more academic subjects, she did reallywell and way beyond her peers.
And her favorite subject was math.
Mathematics.
I don't know what they called it over there atthe time, to the extent which her, and was so
(06:57):
good at it that her, her math teacher told herthat if she didn't make a career of math, that
would be a prime.
But I wonder if you can guess why she didn't
go into math.
I won't put you on the spot.
So I'll tell you, not connected enough to thereal world.
Oh, my.
(07:18):
Theoretical math.
It was because she was always on the premiseof living on earth, and she thought that
theoretical math was just too abstract.
And as much as she loved just.
She loved the psycho epistemology of it, orthe epistemology of it, and.
(07:38):
But as far as doing anything with it, it wasamazing.
My own words, more of it, almost an in itself,so.
And then later she.
Under the Soviets, when she went to college,
she had to keep quiet about the importantthings, except for Aristotle.
(08:01):
She was very outspoken, but anything thatbordered on political, as she said, if she'd
spoken out, she would have been dead within ayear.
Blair (08:13):
Yeah, I was just about to come to that quote in the book, too.
Mike (08:17):
Yeah, I knew you liked school.
Basically, she liked learning, but she found
most of it boring and I guess toorationalistic in our terms, as lecturing.
Lecturing to little kids.
So she didn't like that aspect of it.
But she.
The subjects that she liked, philosophy and
(08:38):
math earlier, math she loved.
And Washington was a standout student, but.
Blair (08:48):
I don't think it was nice not to interrupt you, Mike, but I thought her.
Well, I don't know if it was her favorite, butshe majored in history, correct?
Or.
Mike (09:02):
Yeah, she did.
In college.
Blair (09:04):
Okay. Okay.
Mike (09:05):
Yeah. So the math was really high school, which is particularly.
I don't know if she took that.
And we do have her, you know, we have her
transcripts and records, grade reports, allkinds of.
Much of which was found for us by objectivistsor objectivist sympathizers in Russia.
(09:26):
They got into the official papers, I guess theFreedom of Information Act.
I don't know, after the Soviets fell.
Blair (09:37):
Right.
Okay.
Mike (09:38):
Obviously.
And so we have a lot of that information.
I just can't remember if she took any highermath.
I don't know.
She was studying later.
She was taking private math tutorial muchlater in her life.
(10:05):
So she obviously, she kept up her love of itand what it indicated epistemologically and
what you could do with it, but.
Yeah, you know, she was an industry.
Blair (10:17):
Major, and I wonder if those math notes will ever be released someday.
Mike (10:22):
Never seen it.
Oh, I don't think.
Yeah, I think if they existed, we would haveseen them by now.
Yeah.
Don't get me off onto the things that we don't
have.
I don't mind her early scenarios, which I
don't know where they are that she broughtwith it from Russia.
Blair (10:41):
I remember Doctor Peacock saying that there's a box or two missing of her, all of
her possessions.
So I wonder what happened to that.
But that's for another story.
I know that obviously, we, the living.
She must have used a lot of those locationsand statues and things.
And Anu, do you have any idea about those or.
Mike (11:02):
No, not really.
I mean, she did.
She used those.
She used the people, too.
There's a. I think in the Robert Mayhewanthology, there is a chapter.
I think it's Scott McConnell who did thehundred voices, oral history, did a chapter on
the connection of people she knew in Russia,family members, like, connection of them to
(11:33):
characters in we the living, which is afascinating chapter, if you get a chance to
look at that.
As she said, it's the closest she ever came or
would come to an autobiography.
That it was Kira was not the specifics, but
(11:58):
Kira's sense of life approached the world.
Blair (12:02):
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah.
I want to read a quote.
You sort of touched on it earlier, but I'dlike to read it from your book.
This is on page 27, en route to America.
Let's see here.
Where do I want to start?Ayn Rand was finally leaving the country that
even as a youngster, she considered, quote,just an accidental sort of cesspool of
(12:25):
civilization.
I had a feeling because of being in Russia,
that I am simply among the wrong people and inthe wrong environment, and that whichever I
see here is not representative of mankind, endquote.
And then she goes on to say, people told herat her going away party, when you get out,
(12:46):
tell the rest of the world that we are dyinghere, unquote.
Had she remained in Russia and written as anindividualist, she recalled, she herself,
quote, would have been dead within a year,unquote.
But in America, she would tell the world.
Yeah, that's, uh.
Mike (13:05):
That's.
Blair (13:06):
That's profound in my mind.
Mike (13:07):
So, yeah.
That I love.
That's one of my all time favorite quotes.
And although it wasn't by her, tell the world
we were dying here.
Blair (13:15):
Right, right.
Yeah.
Mike (13:16):
And if.
I don't know if you caught when that going
away party was January 6.
Blair (13:22):
Well, 17th, says here.
Mike (13:24):
Yeah. The party was the night of January 16.
Blair (13:27):
Yes. Okay.
Mike (13:28):
Right.
Blair (13:29):
Thank you.
Yes.
Mike (13:30):
And I don't know whether that's it.
Obviously, it's the sports of that, the use of
that in the play, but I noticed that a fewyears ago.
It seems rather coincidental, but, yeah, Imean, that's.
Blair (13:46):
Well, you know, that's.
I mean, she does that because she started
writing at Le Shrug on September 2.
And that, of course, is prominent through the
novel.
Mike (13:55):
Right. But, uh.
Well, it could have been, but, yeah.
That.
That quote, uh, from the guest party is
really.
Oh. Because it was not metaphorical.
It was actually.
We are all dying here.
Blair (14:10):
Yes, true.
Mike (14:11):
And they did.
So, um.
But, uh, that she got out and all that.
I don't know if you've.
I don't know if that story has been in print,that she was in Riga, Latvia, I think, and had
been denied a visa to get out.
(14:37):
And she noticed on the desk of the.
Of the official that she was talking to, sheread it upside down and.
And I think, recognized that there was somemistake, that he was.
I wish I could remember the detail.
Talking to the wrong person or something.
(14:57):
And she corrected it and then got her visa andthat.
Another chance encounter.
Blair (15:05):
Yes, exactly.
Mike (15:06):
Yes.
Blair (15:10):
I wanted.
Is Anu still with us, Orlando?
Anu (15:14):
I am, but you apparently can't hear me.
Blair (15:17):
Yes, we do.
We're just.
I did try to reach out to you a moment ago.
Do you.
In the book, she has a specific emotion uponarriving in America.
Can you describe that or.
Anu (15:32):
I think so.
I know that she didn't put in these words, but
she must have been somewhat emotional forhaving reached the goal of her.
Her travel to America.
When seeing the skyline of New York, which,
since you read the book, you know howimportant the New York skyline was for her.
And that was the first time she saw it inperson after having seen it in many movies and
(15:55):
books.
So I think there was a kind of crystallized
vision of what her future will be where she isnow in America.
So that's my interpretation of it, yes.
Blair (16:07):
Yeah.
Mike (16:09):
She does comment, I think, in the biographical interviews about missing seeing
the Statue of Liberty as the boat came in.
The ship came in, and that was really crushing
to her because that was so much in her mind asthe coming to America that she's gotten here.
(16:33):
And I can't remember why.
Was it in the dark or is raining or something?
And she was the downer of getting to America,but.
Blair (16:46):
Okay, well, she stayed in New York for a while, then she went to Chicago to stay with
relatives, if I'm not mistaken.
And there's another quote I want to read from
some of her family members.
It's quote, we had two little cots in the
dining room, and we had to move out becauseAyn Rand had her typewriter in the dining room
(17:08):
where we slept.
She was just a cousin who came to America and
could hardly speak English.
We didn't know she was going to be a great
writer with great ideas.
She was just another one of the, quote,
greenhorns that grandpa and the uncles andaunts brought in.
But we wanted everyone to live in the land ofmilk and honey, unquote.
(17:28):
There's some nice, nice relatives anyhow.
But again, these photos are phenomenal.
Fantastic.
Now, going to Los Angeles, the Richard Nutra
house.
Mike (17:45):
Nitra.
Blair (17:45):
Yeah, nitra or nutra.
Mike (17:50):
Blair, I was not getting audio for a while.
I don't know if you were on it, but I. But Imight have missed.
Blair (17:57):
Oh, I pulled back from the mic.
Maybe that's my fault there then.
Anu (18:00):
Yeah, I've been getting everything, I think.
Blair (18:02):
All right, I can read that quote again, Martin, if you want me to.
Martin (18:05):
Yes, please.
Blair (18:06):
All right.
From one of her cousins in Chicago.
Mike (18:10):
Yeah, I heard that.
Blair (18:12):
Okay.
Mike (18:13):
Yeah.
Blair (18:14):
She was just a cousin who came to America and could hardly speak English.
We didn't know she was going to be a greatwriter with great ideas.
She was just another one of the greenhornsthat grandpa and the uncles and aunts brought
in.
We wanted everyone to live in the land of milk
and honey, unquote.
That was her cousin.
Mike (18:32):
Right.
Blair (18:33):
Now, sadly, this neutra nitra house was torn down.
Mike (18:38):
Oh, yeah.
I'd actually, Harry Binswater and I went to
that house.
We didn't get in, but it was just a few blocks
away from where I was teaching.
It moved to LA in 1970, and I was teaching at
what's now California State University inNorthridge.
And that, that house, the neutra house, was aniconic house.
(19:02):
And the official neutra volume and books hasthat as the COVID photo.
And it got, you know, and we, Harry and I wentthere and got chased off the property by
whoever was running it at the time.
We didn't.
(19:23):
And that was before he'd gotten to know her.
So he couldn't say, I'm a friend of mine,
ransom.
So we meekly left it and within a few months,
it was gone.
And I met and talked to Richard Nitra's son,
Dione, a couple years later.
He told me that the money to save it had
(19:46):
actually been raised.
And the people that were having it torn down
didn't know that.
And destruction went on.
And he was more awfully.
There's a video online showing the destruction
of the house.
It was an architectural crime.
No, not a real crime.
Martin (20:07):
Yeah. Mike, you have a note in end of the book, of course, that you should respect
the property rights.
And because your book that you have worked
here, Mike, in honor and with all the helpswith photos and how many of these locations,
sites and homes and places could you visittoday?
(20:32):
Of course, respecting property rights if it'sa private home or whatnot.
But you said in the green room that you andAnna have been having, like, tour guide
guiding.
Mike (20:43):
Yeah, I think the number of places you can get into now is probably zero.
Martin (20:51):
Okay.
Mike (20:53):
I don't know what you've been in on it.
Did you take the tour where we went into the
Hollywood studio club?
Anu (21:01):
I did.
Oh, that was the Ari staff tour that you.
Mike (21:05):
All right, right.
Anu (21:06):
You and Jeff. Did I? Yeah.
So I've been there.
But, you know, for instance, a lot of the
photos are from the facades, from the outsidesof the houses, so those you can still see
almost all the buildings in New York.
I've actually taken the photos, and they are
still there, and I never went inside.
I don't think in most cases we even knew which
apartment it would have been okay.
Mike (21:29):
But. But continuing with that, we are fortunate.
All this started back, I think, in the 1990sfor me, long before we had the idea for a
book.
But for some reason, we had all of the russian
(21:49):
letters, all the 900 letters from our familyin Russian.
We had them at our house.
I can't remember why it.
And I shudder to think on something thatvaluable.
And sitting around the house when we had it.
And my play wife Judy, who was a big champion
of the russian lawyers, I think it might havesome.
(22:13):
She paid that and translated.
So we were very interested in that.
And part of it, we realized that we could findout where she lived by looking at the
forwarding addresses on the envelopes.
They were basically sent from her family to
(22:34):
the relatives in Chicago and forwarded to AynRand, wherever she was living then.
So we put together a chronology, and westarted driving around LA to see where she
lived at that point, nobody knew basicallywhere she lived in LA.
(22:55):
And very fortunate.
We actually got into a couple of the
apartments by chance.
Somebody was moving, and they said, we said,
can we come in?Sure, come on in.
It wasn't very exciting, but just the ideathat we'd gotten into the exact apartments
that she'd lived in.
(23:15):
But now I don't even know what's going on at
the studio club, which is a historical site,so you could probably get into the lobby.
And the last time I was there, they no longerhad the display case where they feature her
(23:36):
letter to the studio club, lauding it for whatit did for the young women who come the
Hollywood.
So that's about as far as you could get
anywhere.
The rest of them were just boons are locked up
tight because these days, with the increasedcrime, you can't get into the front door of
(23:58):
these buildings at all.
Blair (24:00):
Again, I think the studio club itself, was that privately funded back then, I mean.
Mike (24:07):
Yes. YMCA.
Blair (24:09):
Okay, that.
Yeah, there you go.
Okay.
Mike (24:11):
Yeah. Or maybe it was a YWC w. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And DeMille's wife, I think.
Wasn't she the, uh.
Uh, the.
The.
I mean, the finance, uh, behind it, on it?You remember what the.
Anu (24:26):
I don't remember that.
Um.
Mike (24:31):
Mill's wife.
I don't remember what it was, but.
Blair (24:34):
That'S not in the book anyway.
Mike (24:36):
Yeah.
Blair (24:40):
Go ahead.
Anu (24:41):
I can mention about one place where if it went in St. Petersburg, Russia, you could
probably get into.
It's the 120 Nevsky prospect address where Ayn
Rand lived as a young girl with her family.
Several years before Russia attacked Ukraine.
It was converted to a private boutique hotel.
(25:05):
And there's a guy who was helping us obtain
many photos and who went to the nationalarchives in St. Petersburg when they became
open after Covid, he went there and he sent uspictures.
But sadly, it's out of pounds for anyone withany kind of a conscience nowadays.
(25:29):
But it did look really nice, and it used a lotof the space.
Apparently that had been Irene's fathersmother's apartment.
Mike (25:37):
Is that the one under.
They for a while had a plaque on outside?
Anu (25:42):
Yeah, that's the one.
And then they apparently had to take it off
because there wasn't a permit for it orsomething like that.
Typical.
Blair (25:52):
Yes. Typical bureaucracy.
I'm actually surprised some of these buildings
in Russia are still standing, but I don'tthink Russia has ever really been invaded, so
to speak.
Anu (26:03):
No. And St. Petersburg is a beautiful city.
I took a lot of those pictures in 2004 andfive when I did a couple of trips there.
Blair (26:15):
You can see the modern cars in front of these buildings.
Anu (26:17):
But if it's really modern cars, then it's Mikhail Kratzov, our friend in St. Petersburg,
who's taken that.
But if they look like they're 20 year old
cars, then that's mine.
Mike (26:30):
It wasn't.
It was under siege in, what, 3940.
Blair (26:35):
Oh, I see.
Anu (26:36):
Yeah. For a long time, around 1000 days.
Mike (26:41):
And her sister got killed.
Right.
Blair (26:43):
Gosh.
Anu (26:44):
Yeah. In a bombing.
Mike (26:46):
Bombing rate, yeah.
But. Right.
Blair (26:50):
Yeah.
Mike (26:51):
Otherwise, I don't know.
Did you guess you didn't see any ruins in St.
Petersburg?
Anu (27:00):
No, I didn't see any ruins.
I don't remember it really being damaged, that
it would have been.
A lot of these buildings are much older than
second world war, so at least I didn't see anyin the nineties or early two thousands.
Blair (27:16):
Okay, okay.
What about now?
A lot of, almost everyone knows about hermeeting with Cecil B. DeMille and running into
him, so to speak.
What about.
Is it your Ray?Colorado?
Mike (27:29):
Your ray who?
Blair (27:33):
Anno, did you take that photo or.
No?
Anu (27:37):
No, I didn't.
We found the photo in a collection in the
Eindran archives, Mike.
Do I remember that correctly?
And then we did quite a bit of detective workto find out who owns the photo and who took
it.
And then we wrote to him and he was delighted
to give us the right to use it in the book.
(27:58):
And we sent him a copy of the book.
So hopefully he's enjoying it.
Mike (28:03):
I have a funny story how I came across that when I was teaching, as customary, when
faculty members go on vacation, they'll send apostcard back to the department or department
secretary and we'll put it up on the bulletinboard.
And I was in the department office one day andthis must have been, I don't know, 19 71, 72,
(28:29):
something like that.
And I see this exact postcard, I think, right?
And I know where it was.
Never heard of you.
Right.
But Jesus, all that needs is a rate screen.
That could be golf skulks.
And I mentioned that to a friend of mine, Alan
(28:51):
Gottvel, who knew I ran and he said, guesswhat it was.
I had no idea.
And then after we got the archive material, 20
years later, I found the maps and everythingrelated to Yuretzenhe.
So it was.
Now I have to say that when you're.
(29:12):
We went to vacations.
You're right.
You don't experience what you see in thatpicture, which is obviously from the air.
Yes.
So it's.
You don't get, when you're in the town, youdon't get the feeling that you're surrounded
by these huge mountains.
But that photo is so adult skull.
Blair (29:35):
Yes, I agree.
I agree.
I'm looking at it right now.
It's.
That's certainly a valley, you know, and youcan, you can picture the, you know, the homes
of the, the heroes and protagonists.
Mike (29:48):
And they certainly love.
She and Frank certainly love that place there.
Twice.
Martin (29:54):
I have, I have a note there talking about podcasting and podcasting 2.0.
If the listeners, and if we have permissionwith that photo, as you got permission, it had
been possible to then show it as a chapterthat the listener could say, okay, we are
talking about this.
And then they could see it on their phone or
(30:16):
on the web.
And then you could give credits to the person
who took the photo and if they would be like,adding to what you have done, Arno registered
on true fans, then the person could getsomething for that, like a donation.
So this is amazing how we're talking on audio,but then your imagination.
(30:41):
And also, if you looked at the book and havebeen at Colorado, you get the picture.
And if you listen to, and you could add thatinto the audio, like on a new modern podcast
app, you could really see it.
So this is fascinating, and thanks again to,
you know, the market and developers andinventors and applications.
(31:05):
That was something that struck my mind.
Now, when we're talking about this nice
feature.
Yeah, yeah.
Blair (31:12):
Okay. What was, quote, the residence that never was, unquote.
Mike (31:19):
I knew.
I take that one.
Anu (31:22):
Yeah, sure.
Ayn Rand loved Frank Lloyd Wright's work, even
though not the character of the person itself.
And you may be familiar with the story of how
she had written to Frank Lloyd Wright a coupleof times when she was writing the fountainhead
(31:43):
asking for a meeting and never heard back.
And then when the book came out, Frank Lloyd
Wright did acknowledge that and thought it wasabout him and all kinds of funny incidents,
but they ended up meeting.
And apparently Frank Lloyd Wright was so
(32:06):
impressed by Ayndrand that he agreed to do adrawing, a design for a house for her without
knowing what would be the house's location,which apparently was typically a no no for
him.
And he did that.
But unfortunately, that was the time when AynRand decided that she would rather live in the
(32:31):
city.
And this house was designed to be built
somewhere, I think, you know, maybe close bywhere one of you lives, you know, in
Connecticut, close by the ocean.
But she went back to New York City, and the
house was never built.
There is a beautiful design in the Frank Lloyd
Wright foundation archives, and unfortunately,they didn't allow us to reprint it in the
(32:58):
book, but anyone who wants to find it canfairly easily find it on the Internet or in
the archives.
It's a beautiful building, somewhat
reminiscent of falling water.
Blair (33:09):
Yes, it's striking.
It's very striking.
Yes, very striking.
Now, one of the things I was kind of
fascinated by, in a way, she, apparently theymoved around quite a bit in New York City
itself.
I mean, they had, what, six or eight
residences, and then obviously the building orthe rooms for the objectivist and the Ayn Rand
(33:32):
letter and so on.
But she had a lot.
They moved around quite a bit.
Was there a reason for that?
Anu (33:39):
Or if you look at the times when they moved around a lot, that was earlier, they
were still fairly young, and it seems to bethat they were moving every year, every 11th
month.
So I suppose that they made a year's lease and
(34:00):
then got a better price or a better placesomewhere else.
But if you look at the two last places wherethey lived until Eindran's death, they are
pretty long term.
Mike (34:12):
That's true.
Blair (34:12):
That's true.
Mike (34:14):
Yeah. Places in 31 years.
32 years.
Yeah.
Blair (34:20):
The. So what was.
What was meant by the perfect 36 in one of her
residences?
Mike (34:26):
That was an old phrase for a woman with a perfect figure.
Blair (34:33):
Her man.
Anu (34:36):
Okay. I have to tell you that when I got this question yesterday from you, a blair, I
started looking at it and Google wouldn't eventell this meaning anymore.
And I thought that was pretty sure.
Yeah, I think so.
It's apparently a perfect score on SAt.
It's this and that, but nothing about the
woman's measurements.
(34:58):
I thought that was quite funny.
Martin (35:00):
It is, but we are for the freedom of expression, and this is not explicit, so to
speak.
But the lead to this is like, it's in the
address.
Right.
It's the street number and 36 east.
Anu (35:15):
And the apartment.
Yes, yes.
Mike (35:18):
I don't know what the waste.
They should be.
Blair (35:21):
24.
Mike (35:22):
24. Is that 36? 24 36.
Blair (35:25):
That is it.
Yes.
Mike (35:26):
Yes. That was a.
Blair (35:30):
So that's.
That's.
That's funny.
And cute.
Mike (35:33):
And funny.
Blair (35:34):
Yeah. Now, obviously, there's the famous photo of them on top of the Empire
State Building.
That's one of their trips back to New York
from Los Angeles.
Mike (35:43):
That was the.
Not the Empire State.
That was Rockefeller center.
Blair (35:51):
Sorry. Yes, Rockefeller center.
Mike (35:53):
Oh, yeah.
Great picture.
Blair (35:55):
Yes.
Mike (35:56):
Yeah.
Martin (35:56):
They look very happy, and they look into the camera and hold on to their hats.
Yeah.
Blair (36:03):
But again, so this must have been a real labor of love to put this book together.
Anu (36:09):
It was.
We had a lot of fun.
I have to say that Mike is the best personever to work with.
He's prompt and he's capable, he writes well,he's funny.
Mike (36:23):
If this sort of video, my face would be red.
Anu (36:29):
But it has to be because you are great to work with.
Martin (36:32):
And I know that.
I have to say that.
And we will get you on video, both of you, anddo something, because, of course, this is a
show and tell.
People have to use the immunization and get
the book.
Also, I read it in Kindle and Blair in the
paperback, but I could see opportunities indifferent media with this.
It's like, as I said, a photo album.
(36:54):
It's a gallery, it's a tour guide.
It's so neat and nice in every way.
So great work in doing this, Mike.
Mike (37:04):
Yeah. We're really lucky that, that Ayn Rand was a saver.
And Blair asked earlier about how many photoswere from her collection.
Only 30.
But a lot of the other photos were things that
she kept and we would know nothing about ifshe hadn't kept them.
And it makes her journey so much more alive tohave her and the luggage receipt from her trip
(37:36):
to America on the de Grasse.
She kept that.
Martin (37:41):
Could that be something? Now, maybe it's far fetched, but, you know,
one of my favorite essays is on the value ofhaving stamp collecting as a hobby.
And she written about stamps, how to collectstamps.
And also you learn things and you getinspired.
(38:03):
So it was fascinating when it was this stampof rand.
And also the first letter, you know how to sayin Swedish, you call it first day letter, but
you get it like this date on it.
And I could see that in the, in the book,
it's, it's lots of that nostalgic thing.
Mike (38:24):
So, yeah, you know, I have to say this.
Nothing, not this book in particular, but
what, what it's full of and what it led to hada big effect on me personally.
I've always, being in academia, had a moreacademic approach to things, and I was
(38:47):
interested in her ideas.
Lastly, I'm interested would be an
understatement, but nothing, not particularlyin her as a person.
And it was just, you know, I'm caught up inthe world of ideas at the university and all
that.
And then in the mid nineties, I had to do a
(39:07):
little research of the cartons of her materialthat Doctor Beacov had down in Orange county.
And in the course of which I, I saw somethings I'd never seen before.
And I thought, you know, people are going tostart using this stuff.
We ought to know what's in there.
(39:27):
So I volunteered.
He actually paid me a dollar, the inventory,all that material, this should be pretty
interesting.
And so I started bringing three, four, five
cartons up from Orange county to where I live.
And it's about an hour away where I lived,
(39:48):
north of where all this material was in awarehouse.
And I put it out on the floor of the livingroom.
And I would reach my hand into a box and justgrab hold of something and pull it out.
And one of the first things I pulled out washer passport.
(40:12):
God, this Iran's passport.
If it hadn't been for this, there would have
been no objectivism.
And that concretized what she had gone through
and accomplished.
And it was just increased, increased with all
the other materials I saw.
(40:33):
And that was when I got interested in her
life.
And that's, I think I mentioned in the intro
to this book, the tagline from Ayn Ray said,to life, more compelling than fiction.
And that had, you know, this is acompromisation of that whole thing.
(40:56):
And then I got super interested in thearchives and finding out more and connecting
this piece of material to something else.
That whole process was not just enjoyable, but
gave me a whole different outlook on Ayn Randas a person.
(41:22):
I met her a number of times, but I can't say Iknew her.
We weren't, not enough to be friends, but thatit was a real eye opener and a mind opener.
When I saw her, like, concretized and allthese things, I reminded of it before.
(41:43):
And we were talking about that photo from theRockefeller center, and she kept the receipt
from that photo, and she didn't keep thingsjust to keep them.
She wasn't a hoarder in that sense, but shekept tons of stuff that were meaningful to
(42:03):
her, like hundreds of notes between her andFrank.
They would leave in the morning to call, orderthe groceries, and I don't remember many the
details, but it's a life, and it's concretizedthat way.
I'm really grateful that she kept so.
Martin (42:27):
Many things and like the quote that Blair was saying about the importance of a
typewriter and did the work.
And I like the photo when, as a cat person,
when she is Frisco in action, where on thephoto, you could sense how it was in my
(42:51):
apartment and so on.
So I have.
If. I don't know if you don't have any otherthings, like regarding the book, I want to
segue a little bit before we wrap up.
Blair (43:02):
I do have one more question, Martin, if I may.
I just want to ask Anu, why did she love NewYork City so much?
Martin (43:11):
Yeah, that's a good one.
Anu (43:13):
I would venture to guess that it's a maybe the best form that human, productive
endeavor has taken on a landscape and, youknow, given a very enjoyable place to live and
thrive for anyone who wants to be there.
(43:36):
And I know skyscrapers held a special meaning
to her.
Blair (43:40):
That's true.
Anu (43:41):
There, not having been any in the.
In Russia or Soviet Union, I don't know, you
know, having lived in New York City myself,there is some energy in that city that is very
rare, if not even non existent, anywhere else.
So I. That would be a part of it.
Mike (44:02):
It really meant America to her.
That was.
They were synonymous almost.
And I. For people living in Russia at that
time, America was like Mars.
And it was manifested in New York City.
What could be more better example of americanfreedom and productivity than New York?
(44:27):
I mean, she said at one point, I think it wasin the interviews for biographical, that she
was in this slightly a paraphrase.
I don't remember it exactly.
She was talking to Frank, said, I was in lovewith New York.
Not just I loved it, but I was in love withit.
(44:47):
And Frank said to me, it's the New York thatyou made up in your own mind.
And she said, that's true.
Anu (45:02):
I think we have that in the book, Mike.
Mike (45:04):
Do we?
Blair (45:05):
I think it is.
Mike (45:06):
Yes, I read it.
And, and that's quoting from.
Anu (45:11):
You're quoting almost yourself.
Yeah.
Mike (45:15):
Is that in the skyscraper?
Martin (45:17):
Yeah.
Blair (45:18):
Yes, I think that's what I'm just looking.
Anu (45:21):
I can't see it right there.
But I.
Mike (45:23):
Hold on.
Blair (45:24):
Let's see if I can.
Martin (45:25):
But I read it in.
Anu (45:27):
Oh, maybe it's in.
We have a couple of skyline.
Mike (45:32):
So America became the world for Mars.
Yeah, that's there.
Martin (45:39):
And this, I must say on a personal, this will give me strength and fuel and
support to visit New York City again because Ihaven't been there since the tragic and the
terror attack and so on.
So I was.
Anu (45:56):
Yeah, yeah, do go.
It lives on.
Martin (46:00):
Yeah. Good. Good to hear.
So. So, Mike, I was, and that could be for
another episode.
You wrote an article, a piece on we were
living and music.
Do you want to, could you connect that somehow
with this book?And also, Rance had future plans of music and
(46:22):
tiddlywing music and some work of art.
Mike (46:30):
No connection pops into my mind, though.
I think she pretty much will.
Stylish.
I think she lived in New York at the same time
as her then favorite composer, EmmerichKalman, and didn't know it.
And I, of course, never got to meet him.
But, no, I mean, maybe there is, but I'm not
(46:57):
seeing it, Martin.
Sorry.
Martin (46:58):
No, that's okay.
But I thought it was very interesting piece
about the music and we were living, and also,as we talked about all the statues and
landmarks and it's fascinating to learn moreabout her life and her career and everything.
So. And thanks again for your hard work.
(47:20):
And do you have any things going on or
something that you want to mention orsomething?
Again, you have to plug the book, of course,and where the listener could get it and.
Yeah.
Reach out to you and so on.
Anu (47:36):
Yeah, the book is available on Amazon, both on Kindle evision and a print edition.
But like Martin mentioned earlier, it is noteasy to read it on Kindle.
It's hard to make the font any bigger.
And I bet the photos are blurry.
So do get it in print.
(47:56):
And it's pretty inexpensive and comes to you
quickly, at least if you're in the US.
Which reminds me, Martin, if you need any help
getting it to Sweden, let me know.
Martin (48:06):
Yeah, I will talk to you.
You know how it is in Scandinavia.
Anu (48:09):
I do know that.
Martin (48:11):
Nordic countries.
Blair (48:13):
Anu, are you over in Europe or where are you, if I may?
Anu (48:17):
No, I'm in.
I'm in southern California, too.
I'm in Orange county, just about an hour southfrom Mike.
Blair (48:26):
Yeah, I know you worked at the Institute for many years, and I did see a
blurb some time ago where you had retired.
Anu (48:34):
Right? Yes. I've been enjoying only life for about
two years now.
It has been quite, quite nice.
Blair (48:44):
I'm glad.
Michael, let me.
On the back cover, you mentioned you there.
It mentions that you wrote recent biographies
of Emerick Kalman and Jacques Offenbach.
Mike (48:57):
Edited, not wrote.
Blair (48:59):
Okay. I haven't been able to find those.
Are they available there?
Mike (49:03):
Yes, they are.
They're on.
They're on Amazon.
Uh, the biography of Emerick almond is called
laughter under tears.
Blair (49:16):
Ah, okay.
Mike (49:17):
And the author is.
Last name is Fry Frey.
And the other, more recent is a memoir thatKalman himself wrote in 1940 and telling
stories about his growing up and becoming animposer and the like.
(49:39):
And that's that title.
That is the unadulterated truth.
I'm not sure that's an accurate title, but youcall it the unadulterated truth.
And he's the named author of that.
But they're on kind.
I don't know if they're on Kindle, actually,but they're certainly on Amazon.
(49:59):
But I don't want to leave without saying notonly was this book probably the most enjoyable
book that I ever worked on at Ari, but workingwith Anu, I don't think we had any
disagreements.
To me, Anu, which is pretty surprising.
(50:20):
It was pure joy to do this.
Anu (50:23):
Yeah, I don't think we had.
And you, given that we really put down.
Put ourselves down to work shortly after Covidbegan and we were stranded at our homes.
It was really a glimpse of another life andsomething positive coming on that was quite
wonderful.
Mike (50:42):
Of course, it took about 1517 years to get it done.
Anu (50:47):
That's right.
But maybe without Covid, we couldn't have done
it.
Mike (50:52):
It's possible.
Anu (50:53):
Yeah. No, thank you guys, for wanting to interview us.
That was wonderful.
Blair (50:57):
Oh, it's our pleasure.
Our pleasure.
I want to.
Martin, did you want to finish up?
And I'll do that.
Martin (51:05):
I think it's all good.
Of course, if you value this, as listeners,
you are welcome to support us and support ourguests, and we'll talk more about that in the
future, how we could spread the good word andkeep this going.
So please wrap it up, blaire.
Blair (51:24):
All right.
Ladies and gentlemen, today we've been talking
to Michael Berliner and Anu Sepala, authors ofRussia to America, a guide to Ayn Rand, homes
and scents.
Mike, Anu, thanks for manning the foxhole with
us.
Mike (51:39):
Thanks for having us.
Anu (51:40):
Thank you.
Blair (51:42):
You're welcome.
Martin (51:43):
Thank you very much.
Good afternoon and good evening, ladies and gentlemen.
Today on the secular foxhole podcast, we havetwo guests, Michael Berliner and Anu Sepala.
I hope I pronounced that correct.
They are the authors of a compelling book
called Russia to America, a guide to Ayn Randhomes and sites.
Mike, Anu, how are you doing?Well, great, great.
(00:32):
How were.
How were the photos obtained?
Did miss Rand have many of them herself, ordid you.
Did you and Anna Anu scour the archives, so tospeak?
Mike (00:43):
Anna, you want to start with that? Hoping you could hear me?
I guess we've lost her.
Blair (00:49):
Yeah, probably.
Martin (00:50):
She's online, but I don't see any wavelength, so we.
Mike (00:56):
I'll go ahead and answer that yes to everything we had.
We did scour the archives, but there are about150 images in the book, and just 30 of them
are from her own collection of photos that sheeither brought with her from Russia or were
(01:17):
sent to her by her family.
So 20% of the.
Of the total.
And the rest are.
Are either images that we took of archives,items, took people in LA or in Russia or New
(01:37):
York, of the buildings, the houses that shelived in.
So there's a big variety.
I can't tell you how distinct from the
archives, but probably well over half.
But the vintage photos are ones that of her
family, particularly once that she broughtwith her from Russia when she got out in 1926.
Blair (02:01):
Yes. Okay. Okay. Now, who are or what was the Kerensky revolution in 1917?
How old was she then?I think she was, what, twelve, maybe?
Mike (02:11):
She was.
Well, yeah.
And at that time, Kerensky was AlexanderKerensky, and he was the head of a provisional
government that lasted a few months before theBolshevik October Revolution took over and
chased him out of the country.
(02:34):
He was the last hope for any sort of sanity in
Russia.
It was the revolution that she watched, the
fighting that she watched in 1926, inFebruary, that was the.
Known as the February Revolution or theKerensky Revolution.
And it was anti czarist.
There was a combination of different groups
(02:56):
for different places on this politicalspectrum fighting against the tsar, and it
took place only in St. Petersburg.
It was not a nationwide revolution that far.
And the tsar abdicated.
And Kerensky.
Korensky was her big hero, but she was thatage.
(03:17):
He thought, you know, he was the.
He was the hope for Russia, and he was a
dashing figure, and he turned out to be a realloser, which she recognized pretty early on,
maybe not at age twelve, but later.
That compromiser didn't really have any solid
ideas.
(03:37):
He loved mother Russia, and she met him
actually, in the 1940s at a party when she wasin New York.
And I think he turned out to be even worsethan she thought he was.
So she blames him.
This is in her biographical interviews.
She blames him for not being what he couldhave been.
(04:00):
And he actually thinks that he could haveprevented the Soviets from, I mean, the
Bolsheviks from thinking over, because he wasso beloved that Russia had to fight.
And they do this often.
So I see, I see.
Blair (04:15):
Now, what's, one of the things that I was really surprised at in your book,
Washington, when her family vacationed inFrance in 1914.
Of course, World War one was underway, Iguess, and apparently, the way you have it in
the book, the ocean liner before hers and theone after hers were sunk, but she was
(04:42):
apparently, obviously lucky to be alive afterthe bombing of the shipping lanes.
Mike (04:48):
So that's.
Yeah. You know, when you put that into
perspective, think of all the things thatcould have happened.
Yes.
Not just the bombings, but they were attacked
by bandits in the Crimea, all sorts of thingsthat could have ended her life in a second.
(05:12):
And I think, God, where would I be?That didn't happen.
There would have been no objectivism, though.
You know, it's.
But that's.
I think you named that, that's the scariest
thing that, going through, I guess, that theNorth Sea and the U boats.
Blair (05:30):
So what does that mean? Fortunate.
Fortunate.
Mike (05:34):
Fortunate, yeah.
Blair (05:36):
For the world.
Yes. Now, another thing that I didn't know is
I knew her father was a pharmacist and that hehad bought an apartment building in 1916,
apparently where they came back from.
The Karami, I believe.
Mike (05:53):
Right.
Blair (05:56):
And then that's where she finally gets to America, from that apartment building.
But can you.
Before we get to that, can you.
Her school years, can you describe her schoolyears for me?
Mike (06:09):
Well, uh, we know something.
She talks about that in her, in biographical
interviews, the classes that she liked thatshe didn't do well in.
She said she was particularly bad at anythingthat, that was more physical.
Like there was an art class that she didn'tlike, sewing she was totally inept at, but in
(06:37):
the more academic subjects, she did reallywell and way beyond her peers.
And her favorite subject was math.
Mathematics.
I don't know what they called it over there atthe time, to the extent which her, and was so
(06:57):
good at it that her, her math teacher told herthat if she didn't make a career of math, that
would be a prime.
But I wonder if you can guess why she didn't
go into math.
I won't put you on the spot.
So I'll tell you, not connected enough to thereal world.
Oh, my.
(07:18):
Theoretical math.
It was because she was always on the premiseof living on earth, and she thought that
theoretical math was just too abstract.
And as much as she loved just.
She loved the psycho epistemology of it, orthe epistemology of it, and.
(07:38):
But as far as doing anything with it, it wasamazing.
My own words, more of it, almost an in itself,so.
And then later she.
Under the Soviets, when she went to college,
she had to keep quiet about the importantthings, except for Aristotle.
(08:01):
She was very outspoken, but anything thatbordered on political, as she said, if she'd
spoken out, she would have been dead within ayear.
Blair (08:13):
Yeah, I was just about to come to that quote in the book, too.
Mike (08:17):
Yeah, I knew you liked school.
Basically, she liked learning, but she found
most of it boring and I guess toorationalistic in our terms, as lecturing.
Lecturing to little kids.
So she didn't like that aspect of it.
But she.
The subjects that she liked, philosophy and
(08:38):
math earlier, math she loved.
And Washington was a standout student, but.
Blair (08:48):
I don't think it was nice not to interrupt you, Mike, but I thought her.
Well, I don't know if it was her favorite, butshe majored in history, correct?
Or.
Mike (09:02):
Yeah, she did.
In college.
Blair (09:04):
Okay. Okay.
Mike (09:05):
Yeah. So the math was really high school, which is particularly.
I don't know if she took that.
And we do have her, you know, we have her
transcripts and records, grade reports, allkinds of.
Much of which was found for us by objectivistsor objectivist sympathizers in Russia.
(09:26):
They got into the official papers, I guess theFreedom of Information Act.
I don't know, after the Soviets fell.
Blair (09:37):
Right.
Okay.
Mike (09:38):
Obviously.
And so we have a lot of that information.
I just can't remember if she took any highermath.
I don't know.
She was studying later.
She was taking private math tutorial muchlater in her life.
(10:05):
So she obviously, she kept up her love of itand what it indicated epistemologically and
what you could do with it, but.
Yeah, you know, she was an industry.
Blair (10:17):
Major, and I wonder if those math notes will ever be released someday.
Mike (10:22):
Never seen it.
Oh, I don't think.
Yeah, I think if they existed, we would haveseen them by now.
Yeah.
Don't get me off onto the things that we don't
have.
I don't mind her early scenarios, which I
don't know where they are that she broughtwith it from Russia.
Blair (10:41):
I remember Doctor Peacock saying that there's a box or two missing of her, all of
her possessions.
So I wonder what happened to that.
But that's for another story.
I know that obviously, we, the living.
She must have used a lot of those locationsand statues and things.
And Anu, do you have any idea about those or.
Mike (11:02):
No, not really.
I mean, she did.
She used those.
She used the people, too.
There's a. I think in the Robert Mayhewanthology, there is a chapter.
I think it's Scott McConnell who did thehundred voices, oral history, did a chapter on
the connection of people she knew in Russia,family members, like, connection of them to
(11:33):
characters in we the living, which is afascinating chapter, if you get a chance to
look at that.
As she said, it's the closest she ever came or
would come to an autobiography.
That it was Kira was not the specifics, but
(11:58):
Kira's sense of life approached the world.
Blair (12:02):
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah.
I want to read a quote.
You sort of touched on it earlier, but I'dlike to read it from your book.
This is on page 27, en route to America.
Let's see here.
Where do I want to start?Ayn Rand was finally leaving the country that
even as a youngster, she considered, quote,just an accidental sort of cesspool of
(12:25):
civilization.
I had a feeling because of being in Russia,
that I am simply among the wrong people and inthe wrong environment, and that whichever I
see here is not representative of mankind, endquote.
And then she goes on to say, people told herat her going away party, when you get out,
(12:46):
tell the rest of the world that we are dyinghere, unquote.
Had she remained in Russia and written as anindividualist, she recalled, she herself,
quote, would have been dead within a year,unquote.
But in America, she would tell the world.
Yeah, that's, uh.
Mike (13:05):
That's.
Blair (13:06):
That's profound in my mind.
Mike (13:07):
So, yeah.
That I love.
That's one of my all time favorite quotes.
And although it wasn't by her, tell the world
we were dying here.
Blair (13:15):
Right, right.
Yeah.
Mike (13:16):
And if.
I don't know if you caught when that going
away party was January 6.
Blair (13:22):
Well, 17th, says here.
Mike (13:24):
Yeah. The party was the night of January 16.
Blair (13:27):
Yes. Okay.
Mike (13:28):
Right.
Blair (13:29):
Thank you.
Yes.
Mike (13:30):
And I don't know whether that's it.
Obviously, it's the sports of that, the use of
that in the play, but I noticed that a fewyears ago.
It seems rather coincidental, but, yeah, Imean, that's.
Blair (13:46):
Well, you know, that's.
I mean, she does that because she started
writing at Le Shrug on September 2.
And that, of course, is prominent through the
novel.
Mike (13:55):
Right. But, uh.
Well, it could have been, but, yeah.
That.
That quote, uh, from the guest party is
really.
Oh. Because it was not metaphorical.
It was actually.
We are all dying here.
Blair (14:10):
Yes, true.
Mike (14:11):
And they did.
So, um.
But, uh, that she got out and all that.
I don't know if you've.
I don't know if that story has been in print,that she was in Riga, Latvia, I think, and had
been denied a visa to get out.
(14:37):
And she noticed on the desk of the.
Of the official that she was talking to, sheread it upside down and.
And I think, recognized that there was somemistake, that he was.
I wish I could remember the detail.
Talking to the wrong person or something.
(14:57):
And she corrected it and then got her visa andthat.
Another chance encounter.
Blair (15:05):
Yes, exactly.
Mike (15:06):
Yes.
Blair (15:10):
I wanted.
Is Anu still with us, Orlando?
Anu (15:14):
I am, but you apparently can't hear me.
Blair (15:17):
Yes, we do.
We're just.
I did try to reach out to you a moment ago.
Do you.
In the book, she has a specific emotion uponarriving in America.
Can you describe that or.
Anu (15:32):
I think so.
I know that she didn't put in these words, but
she must have been somewhat emotional forhaving reached the goal of her.
Her travel to America.
When seeing the skyline of New York, which,
since you read the book, you know howimportant the New York skyline was for her.
And that was the first time she saw it inperson after having seen it in many movies and
(15:55):
books.
So I think there was a kind of crystallized
vision of what her future will be where she isnow in America.
So that's my interpretation of it, yes.
Blair (16:07):
Yeah.
Mike (16:09):
She does comment, I think, in the biographical interviews about missing seeing
the Statue of Liberty as the boat came in.
The ship came in, and that was really crushing
to her because that was so much in her mind asthe coming to America that she's gotten here.
(16:33):
And I can't remember why.
Was it in the dark or is raining or something?
And she was the downer of getting to America,but.
Blair (16:46):
Okay, well, she stayed in New York for a while, then she went to Chicago to stay with
relatives, if I'm not mistaken.
And there's another quote I want to read from
some of her family members.
It's quote, we had two little cots in the
dining room, and we had to move out becauseAyn Rand had her typewriter in the dining room
(17:08):
where we slept.
She was just a cousin who came to America and
could hardly speak English.
We didn't know she was going to be a great
writer with great ideas.
She was just another one of the, quote,
greenhorns that grandpa and the uncles andaunts brought in.
But we wanted everyone to live in the land ofmilk and honey, unquote.
(17:28):
There's some nice, nice relatives anyhow.
But again, these photos are phenomenal.
Fantastic.
Now, going to Los Angeles, the Richard Nutra
house.
Mike (17:45):
Nitra.
Blair (17:45):
Yeah, nitra or nutra.
Mike (17:50):
Blair, I was not getting audio for a while.
I don't know if you were on it, but I. But Imight have missed.
Blair (17:57):
Oh, I pulled back from the mic.
Maybe that's my fault there then.
Anu (18:00):
Yeah, I've been getting everything, I think.
Blair (18:02):
All right, I can read that quote again, Martin, if you want me to.
Martin (18:05):
Yes, please.
Blair (18:06):
All right.
From one of her cousins in Chicago.
Mike (18:10):
Yeah, I heard that.
Blair (18:12):
Okay.
Mike (18:13):
Yeah.
Blair (18:14):
She was just a cousin who came to America and could hardly speak English.
We didn't know she was going to be a greatwriter with great ideas.
She was just another one of the greenhornsthat grandpa and the uncles and aunts brought
in.
We wanted everyone to live in the land of milk
and honey, unquote.
That was her cousin.
Mike (18:32):
Right.
Blair (18:33):
Now, sadly, this neutra nitra house was torn down.
Mike (18:38):
Oh, yeah.
I'd actually, Harry Binswater and I went to
that house.
We didn't get in, but it was just a few blocks
away from where I was teaching.
It moved to LA in 1970, and I was teaching at
what's now California State University inNorthridge.
And that, that house, the neutra house, was aniconic house.
(19:02):
And the official neutra volume and books hasthat as the COVID photo.
And it got, you know, and we, Harry and I wentthere and got chased off the property by
whoever was running it at the time.
We didn't.
(19:23):
And that was before he'd gotten to know her.
So he couldn't say, I'm a friend of mine,
ransom.
So we meekly left it and within a few months,
it was gone.
And I met and talked to Richard Nitra's son,
Dione, a couple years later.
He told me that the money to save it had
(19:46):
actually been raised.
And the people that were having it torn down
didn't know that.
And destruction went on.
And he was more awfully.
There's a video online showing the destruction
of the house.
It was an architectural crime.
No, not a real crime.
Martin (20:07):
Yeah. Mike, you have a note in end of the book, of course, that you should respect
the property rights.
And because your book that you have worked
here, Mike, in honor and with all the helpswith photos and how many of these locations,
sites and homes and places could you visittoday?
(20:32):
Of course, respecting property rights if it'sa private home or whatnot.
But you said in the green room that you andAnna have been having, like, tour guide
guiding.
Mike (20:43):
Yeah, I think the number of places you can get into now is probably zero.
Martin (20:51):
Okay.
Mike (20:53):
I don't know what you've been in on it.
Did you take the tour where we went into the
Hollywood studio club?
Anu (21:01):
I did.
Oh, that was the Ari staff tour that you.
Mike (21:05):
All right, right.
Anu (21:06):
You and Jeff. Did I? Yeah.
So I've been there.
But, you know, for instance, a lot of the
photos are from the facades, from the outsidesof the houses, so those you can still see
almost all the buildings in New York.
I've actually taken the photos, and they are
still there, and I never went inside.
I don't think in most cases we even knew which
apartment it would have been okay.
Mike (21:29):
But. But continuing with that, we are fortunate.
All this started back, I think, in the 1990sfor me, long before we had the idea for a
book.
But for some reason, we had all of the russian
(21:49):
letters, all the 900 letters from our familyin Russian.
We had them at our house.
I can't remember why it.
And I shudder to think on something thatvaluable.
And sitting around the house when we had it.
And my play wife Judy, who was a big champion
of the russian lawyers, I think it might havesome.
(22:13):
She paid that and translated.
So we were very interested in that.
And part of it, we realized that we could findout where she lived by looking at the
forwarding addresses on the envelopes.
They were basically sent from her family to
(22:34):
the relatives in Chicago and forwarded to AynRand, wherever she was living then.
So we put together a chronology, and westarted driving around LA to see where she
lived at that point, nobody knew basicallywhere she lived in LA.
(22:55):
And very fortunate.
We actually got into a couple of the
apartments by chance.
Somebody was moving, and they said, we said,
can we come in?Sure, come on in.
It wasn't very exciting, but just the ideathat we'd gotten into the exact apartments
that she'd lived in.
(23:15):
But now I don't even know what's going on at
the studio club, which is a historical site,so you could probably get into the lobby.
And the last time I was there, they no longerhad the display case where they feature her
(23:36):
letter to the studio club, lauding it for whatit did for the young women who come the
Hollywood.
So that's about as far as you could get
anywhere.
The rest of them were just boons are locked up
tight because these days, with the increasedcrime, you can't get into the front door of
(23:58):
these buildings at all.
Blair (24:00):
Again, I think the studio club itself, was that privately funded back then, I mean.
Mike (24:07):
Yes. YMCA.
Blair (24:09):
Okay, that.
Yeah, there you go.
Okay.
Mike (24:11):
Yeah. Or maybe it was a YWC w. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And DeMille's wife, I think.
Wasn't she the, uh.
Uh, the.
The.
I mean, the finance, uh, behind it, on it?You remember what the.
Anu (24:26):
I don't remember that.
Um.
Mike (24:31):
Mill's wife.
I don't remember what it was, but.
Blair (24:34):
That'S not in the book anyway.
Mike (24:36):
Yeah.
Blair (24:40):
Go ahead.
Anu (24:41):
I can mention about one place where if it went in St. Petersburg, Russia, you could
probably get into.
It's the 120 Nevsky prospect address where Ayn
Rand lived as a young girl with her family.
Several years before Russia attacked Ukraine.
It was converted to a private boutique hotel.
(25:05):
And there's a guy who was helping us obtain
many photos and who went to the nationalarchives in St. Petersburg when they became
open after Covid, he went there and he sent uspictures.
But sadly, it's out of pounds for anyone withany kind of a conscience nowadays.
(25:29):
But it did look really nice, and it used a lotof the space.
Apparently that had been Irene's fathersmother's apartment.
Mike (25:37):
Is that the one under.
They for a while had a plaque on outside?
Anu (25:42):
Yeah, that's the one.
And then they apparently had to take it off
because there wasn't a permit for it orsomething like that.
Typical.
Blair (25:52):
Yes. Typical bureaucracy.
I'm actually surprised some of these buildings
in Russia are still standing, but I don'tthink Russia has ever really been invaded, so
to speak.
Anu (26:03):
No. And St. Petersburg is a beautiful city.
I took a lot of those pictures in 2004 andfive when I did a couple of trips there.
Blair (26:15):
You can see the modern cars in front of these buildings.
Anu (26:17):
But if it's really modern cars, then it's Mikhail Kratzov, our friend in St. Petersburg,
who's taken that.
But if they look like they're 20 year old
cars, then that's mine.
Mike (26:30):
It wasn't.
It was under siege in, what, 3940.
Blair (26:35):
Oh, I see.
Anu (26:36):
Yeah. For a long time, around 1000 days.
Mike (26:41):
And her sister got killed.
Right.
Blair (26:43):
Gosh.
Anu (26:44):
Yeah. In a bombing.
Mike (26:46):
Bombing rate, yeah.
But. Right.
Blair (26:50):
Yeah.
Mike (26:51):
Otherwise, I don't know.
Did you guess you didn't see any ruins in St.
Petersburg?
Anu (27:00):
No, I didn't see any ruins.
I don't remember it really being damaged, that
it would have been.
A lot of these buildings are much older than
second world war, so at least I didn't see anyin the nineties or early two thousands.
Blair (27:16):
Okay, okay.
What about now?
A lot of, almost everyone knows about hermeeting with Cecil B. DeMille and running into
him, so to speak.
What about.
Is it your Ray?Colorado?
Mike (27:29):
Your ray who?
Blair (27:33):
Anno, did you take that photo or.
No?
Anu (27:37):
No, I didn't.
We found the photo in a collection in the
Eindran archives, Mike.
Do I remember that correctly?
And then we did quite a bit of detective workto find out who owns the photo and who took
it.
And then we wrote to him and he was delighted
to give us the right to use it in the book.
(27:58):
And we sent him a copy of the book.
So hopefully he's enjoying it.
Mike (28:03):
I have a funny story how I came across that when I was teaching, as customary, when
faculty members go on vacation, they'll send apostcard back to the department or department
secretary and we'll put it up on the bulletinboard.
And I was in the department office one day andthis must have been, I don't know, 19 71, 72,
(28:29):
something like that.
And I see this exact postcard, I think, right?
And I know where it was.
Never heard of you.
Right.
But Jesus, all that needs is a rate screen.
That could be golf skulks.
And I mentioned that to a friend of mine, Alan
(28:51):
Gottvel, who knew I ran and he said, guesswhat it was.
I had no idea.
And then after we got the archive material, 20
years later, I found the maps and everythingrelated to Yuretzenhe.
So it was.
Now I have to say that when you're.
(29:12):
We went to vacations.
You're right.
You don't experience what you see in thatpicture, which is obviously from the air.
Yes.
So it's.
You don't get, when you're in the town, youdon't get the feeling that you're surrounded
by these huge mountains.
But that photo is so adult skull.
Blair (29:35):
Yes, I agree.
I agree.
I'm looking at it right now.
It's.
That's certainly a valley, you know, and youcan, you can picture the, you know, the homes
of the, the heroes and protagonists.
Mike (29:48):
And they certainly love.
She and Frank certainly love that place there.
Twice.
Martin (29:54):
I have, I have a note there talking about podcasting and podcasting 2.0.
If the listeners, and if we have permissionwith that photo, as you got permission, it had
been possible to then show it as a chapterthat the listener could say, okay, we are
talking about this.
And then they could see it on their phone or
(30:16):
on the web.
And then you could give credits to the person
who took the photo and if they would be like,adding to what you have done, Arno registered
on true fans, then the person could getsomething for that, like a donation.
So this is amazing how we're talking on audio,but then your imagination.
(30:41):
And also, if you looked at the book and havebeen at Colorado, you get the picture.
And if you listen to, and you could add thatinto the audio, like on a new modern podcast
app, you could really see it.
So this is fascinating, and thanks again to,
you know, the market and developers andinventors and applications.
(31:05):
That was something that struck my mind.
Now, when we're talking about this nice
feature.
Yeah, yeah.
Blair (31:12):
Okay. What was, quote, the residence that never was, unquote.
Mike (31:19):
I knew.
I take that one.
Anu (31:22):
Yeah, sure.
Ayn Rand loved Frank Lloyd Wright's work, even
though not the character of the person itself.
And you may be familiar with the story of how
she had written to Frank Lloyd Wright a coupleof times when she was writing the fountainhead
(31:43):
asking for a meeting and never heard back.
And then when the book came out, Frank Lloyd
Wright did acknowledge that and thought it wasabout him and all kinds of funny incidents,
but they ended up meeting.
And apparently Frank Lloyd Wright was so
(32:06):
impressed by Ayndrand that he agreed to do adrawing, a design for a house for her without
knowing what would be the house's location,which apparently was typically a no no for
him.
And he did that.
But unfortunately, that was the time when AynRand decided that she would rather live in the
(32:31):
city.
And this house was designed to be built
somewhere, I think, you know, maybe close bywhere one of you lives, you know, in
Connecticut, close by the ocean.
But she went back to New York City, and the
house was never built.
There is a beautiful design in the Frank Lloyd
Wright foundation archives, and unfortunately,they didn't allow us to reprint it in the
(32:58):
book, but anyone who wants to find it canfairly easily find it on the Internet or in
the archives.
It's a beautiful building, somewhat
reminiscent of falling water.
Blair (33:09):
Yes, it's striking.
It's very striking.
Yes, very striking.
Now, one of the things I was kind of
fascinated by, in a way, she, apparently theymoved around quite a bit in New York City
itself.
I mean, they had, what, six or eight
residences, and then obviously the building orthe rooms for the objectivist and the Ayn Rand
(33:32):
letter and so on.
But she had a lot.
They moved around quite a bit.
Was there a reason for that?
Anu (33:39):
Or if you look at the times when they moved around a lot, that was earlier, they
were still fairly young, and it seems to bethat they were moving every year, every 11th
month.
So I suppose that they made a year's lease and
(34:00):
then got a better price or a better placesomewhere else.
But if you look at the two last places wherethey lived until Eindran's death, they are
pretty long term.
Mike (34:12):
That's true.
Blair (34:12):
That's true.
Mike (34:14):
Yeah. Places in 31 years.
32 years.
Yeah.
Blair (34:20):
The. So what was.
What was meant by the perfect 36 in one of her
residences?
Mike (34:26):
That was an old phrase for a woman with a perfect figure.
Blair (34:33):
Her man.
Anu (34:36):
Okay. I have to tell you that when I got this question yesterday from you, a blair, I
started looking at it and Google wouldn't eventell this meaning anymore.
And I thought that was pretty sure.
Yeah, I think so.
It's apparently a perfect score on SAt.
It's this and that, but nothing about the
woman's measurements.
(34:58):
I thought that was quite funny.
Martin (35:00):
It is, but we are for the freedom of expression, and this is not explicit, so to
speak.
But the lead to this is like, it's in the
address.
Right.
It's the street number and 36 east.
Anu (35:15):
And the apartment.
Yes, yes.
Mike (35:18):
I don't know what the waste.
They should be.
Blair (35:21):
24.
Mike (35:22):
24. Is that 36? 24 36.
Blair (35:25):
That is it.
Yes.
Mike (35:26):
Yes. That was a.
Blair (35:30):
So that's.
That's.
That's funny.
And cute.
Mike (35:33):
And funny.
Blair (35:34):
Yeah. Now, obviously, there's the famous photo of them on top of the Empire
State Building.
That's one of their trips back to New York
from Los Angeles.
Mike (35:43):
That was the.
Not the Empire State.
That was Rockefeller center.
Blair (35:51):
Sorry. Yes, Rockefeller center.
Mike (35:53):
Oh, yeah.
Great picture.
Blair (35:55):
Yes.
Mike (35:56):
Yeah.
Martin (35:56):
They look very happy, and they look into the camera and hold on to their hats.
Yeah.
Blair (36:03):
But again, so this must have been a real labor of love to put this book together.
Anu (36:09):
It was.
We had a lot of fun.
I have to say that Mike is the best personever to work with.
He's prompt and he's capable, he writes well,he's funny.
Mike (36:23):
If this sort of video, my face would be red.
Anu (36:29):
But it has to be because you are great to work with.
Martin (36:32):
And I know that.
I have to say that.
And we will get you on video, both of you, anddo something, because, of course, this is a
show and tell.
People have to use the immunization and get
the book.
Also, I read it in Kindle and Blair in the
paperback, but I could see opportunities indifferent media with this.
It's like, as I said, a photo album.
(36:54):
It's a gallery, it's a tour guide.
It's so neat and nice in every way.
So great work in doing this, Mike.
Mike (37:04):
Yeah. We're really lucky that, that Ayn Rand was a saver.
And Blair asked earlier about how many photoswere from her collection.
Only 30.
But a lot of the other photos were things that
she kept and we would know nothing about ifshe hadn't kept them.
And it makes her journey so much more alive tohave her and the luggage receipt from her trip
(37:36):
to America on the de Grasse.
She kept that.
Martin (37:41):
Could that be something? Now, maybe it's far fetched, but, you know,
one of my favorite essays is on the value ofhaving stamp collecting as a hobby.
And she written about stamps, how to collectstamps.
And also you learn things and you getinspired.
(38:03):
So it was fascinating when it was this stampof rand.
And also the first letter, you know how to sayin Swedish, you call it first day letter, but
you get it like this date on it.
And I could see that in the, in the book,
it's, it's lots of that nostalgic thing.
Mike (38:24):
So, yeah, you know, I have to say this.
Nothing, not this book in particular, but
what, what it's full of and what it led to hada big effect on me personally.
I've always, being in academia, had a moreacademic approach to things, and I was
(38:47):
interested in her ideas.
Lastly, I'm interested would be an
understatement, but nothing, not particularlyin her as a person.
And it was just, you know, I'm caught up inthe world of ideas at the university and all
that.
And then in the mid nineties, I had to do a
(39:07):
little research of the cartons of her materialthat Doctor Beacov had down in Orange county.
And in the course of which I, I saw somethings I'd never seen before.
And I thought, you know, people are going tostart using this stuff.
We ought to know what's in there.
(39:27):
So I volunteered.
He actually paid me a dollar, the inventory,all that material, this should be pretty
interesting.
And so I started bringing three, four, five
cartons up from Orange county to where I live.
And it's about an hour away where I lived,
(39:48):
north of where all this material was in awarehouse.
And I put it out on the floor of the livingroom.
And I would reach my hand into a box and justgrab hold of something and pull it out.
And one of the first things I pulled out washer passport.
(40:12):
God, this Iran's passport.
If it hadn't been for this, there would have
been no objectivism.
And that concretized what she had gone through
and accomplished.
And it was just increased, increased with all
the other materials I saw.
(40:33):
And that was when I got interested in her
life.
And that's, I think I mentioned in the intro
to this book, the tagline from Ayn Ray said,to life, more compelling than fiction.
And that had, you know, this is acompromisation of that whole thing.
(40:56):
And then I got super interested in thearchives and finding out more and connecting
this piece of material to something else.
That whole process was not just enjoyable, but
gave me a whole different outlook on Ayn Randas a person.
(41:22):
I met her a number of times, but I can't say Iknew her.
We weren't, not enough to be friends, but thatit was a real eye opener and a mind opener.
When I saw her, like, concretized and allthese things, I reminded of it before.
(41:43):
And we were talking about that photo from theRockefeller center, and she kept the receipt
from that photo, and she didn't keep thingsjust to keep them.
She wasn't a hoarder in that sense, but shekept tons of stuff that were meaningful to
(42:03):
her, like hundreds of notes between her andFrank.
They would leave in the morning to call, orderthe groceries, and I don't remember many the
details, but it's a life, and it's concretizedthat way.
I'm really grateful that she kept so.
Martin (42:27):
Many things and like the quote that Blair was saying about the importance of a
typewriter and did the work.
And I like the photo when, as a cat person,
when she is Frisco in action, where on thephoto, you could sense how it was in my
(42:51):
apartment and so on.
So I have.
If. I don't know if you don't have any otherthings, like regarding the book, I want to
segue a little bit before we wrap up.
Blair (43:02):
I do have one more question, Martin, if I may.
I just want to ask Anu, why did she love NewYork City so much?
Martin (43:11):
Yeah, that's a good one.
Anu (43:13):
I would venture to guess that it's a maybe the best form that human, productive
endeavor has taken on a landscape and, youknow, given a very enjoyable place to live and
thrive for anyone who wants to be there.
(43:36):
And I know skyscrapers held a special meaning
to her.
Blair (43:40):
That's true.
Anu (43:41):
There, not having been any in the.
In Russia or Soviet Union, I don't know, you
know, having lived in New York City myself,there is some energy in that city that is very
rare, if not even non existent, anywhere else.
So I. That would be a part of it.
Mike (44:02):
It really meant America to her.
That was.
They were synonymous almost.
And I. For people living in Russia at that
time, America was like Mars.
And it was manifested in New York City.
What could be more better example of americanfreedom and productivity than New York?
(44:27):
I mean, she said at one point, I think it wasin the interviews for biographical, that she
was in this slightly a paraphrase.
I don't remember it exactly.
She was talking to Frank, said, I was in lovewith New York.
Not just I loved it, but I was in love withit.
(44:47):
And Frank said to me, it's the New York thatyou made up in your own mind.
And she said, that's true.
Anu (45:02):
I think we have that in the book, Mike.
Mike (45:04):
Do we?
Blair (45:05):
I think it is.
Mike (45:06):
Yes, I read it.
And, and that's quoting from.
Anu (45:11):
You're quoting almost yourself.
Yeah.
Mike (45:15):
Is that in the skyscraper?
Martin (45:17):
Yeah.
Blair (45:18):
Yes, I think that's what I'm just looking.
Anu (45:21):
I can't see it right there.
But I.
Mike (45:23):
Hold on.
Blair (45:24):
Let's see if I can.
Martin (45:25):
But I read it in.
Anu (45:27):
Oh, maybe it's in.
We have a couple of skyline.
Mike (45:32):
So America became the world for Mars.
Yeah, that's there.
Martin (45:39):
And this, I must say on a personal, this will give me strength and fuel and
support to visit New York City again because Ihaven't been there since the tragic and the
terror attack and so on.
So I was.
Anu (45:56):
Yeah, yeah, do go.
It lives on.
Martin (46:00):
Yeah. Good. Good to hear.
So. So, Mike, I was, and that could be for
another episode.
You wrote an article, a piece on we were
living and music.
Do you want to, could you connect that somehow
with this book?And also, Rance had future plans of music and
(46:22):
tiddlywing music and some work of art.
Mike (46:30):
No connection pops into my mind, though.
I think she pretty much will.
Stylish.
I think she lived in New York at the same time
as her then favorite composer, EmmerichKalman, and didn't know it.
And I, of course, never got to meet him.
But, no, I mean, maybe there is, but I'm not
(46:57):
seeing it, Martin.
Sorry.
Martin (46:58):
No, that's okay.
But I thought it was very interesting piece
about the music and we were living, and also,as we talked about all the statues and
landmarks and it's fascinating to learn moreabout her life and her career and everything.
So. And thanks again for your hard work.
(47:20):
And do you have any things going on or
something that you want to mention orsomething?
Again, you have to plug the book, of course,and where the listener could get it and.
Yeah.
Reach out to you and so on.
Anu (47:36):
Yeah, the book is available on Amazon, both on Kindle evision and a print edition.
But like Martin mentioned earlier, it is noteasy to read it on Kindle.
It's hard to make the font any bigger.
And I bet the photos are blurry.
So do get it in print.
(47:56):
And it's pretty inexpensive and comes to you
quickly, at least if you're in the US.
Which reminds me, Martin, if you need any help
getting it to Sweden, let me know.
Martin (48:06):
Yeah, I will talk to you.
You know how it is in Scandinavia.
Anu (48:09):
I do know that.
Martin (48:11):
Nordic countries.
Blair (48:13):
Anu, are you over in Europe or where are you, if I may?
Anu (48:17):
No, I'm in.
I'm in southern California, too.
I'm in Orange county, just about an hour southfrom Mike.
Blair (48:26):
Yeah, I know you worked at the Institute for many years, and I did see a
blurb some time ago where you had retired.
Anu (48:34):
Right? Yes. I've been enjoying only life for about
two years now.
It has been quite, quite nice.
Blair (48:44):
I'm glad.
Michael, let me.
On the back cover, you mentioned you there.
It mentions that you wrote recent biographies
of Emerick Kalman and Jacques Offenbach.
Mike (48:57):
Edited, not wrote.
Blair (48:59):
Okay. I haven't been able to find those.
Are they available there?
Mike (49:03):
Yes, they are.
They're on.
They're on Amazon.
Uh, the biography of Emerick almond is called
laughter under tears.
Blair (49:16):
Ah, okay.
Mike (49:17):
And the author is.
Last name is Fry Frey.
And the other, more recent is a memoir thatKalman himself wrote in 1940 and telling
stories about his growing up and becoming animposer and the like.
(49:39):
And that's that title.
That is the unadulterated truth.
I'm not sure that's an accurate title, but youcall it the unadulterated truth.
And he's the named author of that.
But they're on kind.
I don't know if they're on Kindle, actually,but they're certainly on Amazon.
(49:59):
But I don't want to leave without saying notonly was this book probably the most enjoyable
book that I ever worked on at Ari, but workingwith Anu, I don't think we had any
disagreements.
To me, Anu, which is pretty surprising.
(50:20):
It was pure joy to do this.
Anu (50:23):
Yeah, I don't think we had.
And you, given that we really put down.
Put ourselves down to work shortly after Covidbegan and we were stranded at our homes.
It was really a glimpse of another life andsomething positive coming on that was quite
wonderful.
Mike (50:42):
Of course, it took about 1517 years to get it done.
Anu (50:47):
That's right.
But maybe without Covid, we couldn't have done
it.
Mike (50:52):
It's possible.
Anu (50:53):
Yeah. No, thank you guys, for wanting to interview us.
That was wonderful.
Blair (50:57):
Oh, it's our pleasure.
Our pleasure.
I want to.
Martin, did you want to finish up?
And I'll do that.
Martin (51:05):
I think it's all good.
Of course, if you value this, as listeners,
you are welcome to support us and support ourguests, and we'll talk more about that in the
future, how we could spread the good word andkeep this going.
So please wrap it up, blaire.
Blair (51:24):
All right.
Ladies and gentlemen, today we've been talking
to Michael Berliner and Anu Sepala, authors ofRussia to America, a guide to Ayn Rand, homes
and scents.
Mike, Anu, thanks for manning the foxhole with
us.
Mike (51:39):
Thanks for having us.
Anu (51:40):
Thank you.
Blair (51:42):
You're welcome.
Martin (51:43):
Thank you very much.
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