July 12, 2023 • 31 mins
[Episode 30]
Support The Service Center!: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1844427/support
Lesley Wong is the owner and Principal Designer at Lesley Wong Interiors and is a hospitality interior design specialists based in Ontario, Canada. Her guest-first design strategy is focused on crafting customized and beautiful hotel spaces for guests, that are both ascetically pleasing and operationally function for operators. Lesley graduated from the New York School of Interior Design and honed her skills in design and construction with Four Seasons Hotels and Resorts. She has operated her own design firm from nearly 10 years, working with brands including Comfort Inn, Best Western, IHG, and Hilton on creating unique, boutique hospitality environments.
You can connect with Lesley on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/lesley-wong-hotels or visit her website at: lesleywonginteriors.ca
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Host: William C Murray, PhD:
William is passionate about service, the hospitality industry, and human experiences. He began working in the service industry at 14 and has never looked back, gaining experience in retail, restaurants, and major hotel companies nationwide. He is an expert in service, hospitality operations, and management, with over two decades teaching at both colleges and universities across Canada.
William holds a PhD in Management and multiple degrees in hospitality and tourism. He in an Associate Professor at the University of Guelph (Canada) in the School of Hospitality, Food & Tourism Management at the Lang School of Business & Economics. His research focuses on workforce sustainability and the human condition of workers. He has published work in top journals, including Sustainability, the International Journal of Hospitality & Tourism Administration, and the Journal of Human Resources in Hospitality and Tourism, along with being a co-author of the textbook Snapshots: An Introduction to Tourism, 6th Cdn.
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E-mail: william@theservicecenter.ca
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
William Murray (00:00):
Hi there, I'm William Murray. Welcome to the
Service Centre.
Lesley Wong (00:05):
The room in itself can be considered a canvas and
everything you put onto thatCanvas is now part of this piece
of art
William Murray (00:26):
Welcome back to The Service Center, our little
corner of the podcast-scapewhere we look at people,
stories, and insights inhospitality and service. You
know, it's hard to believe butthis is episode 30. It seems
just like yesterday that I satdown for episode 1 with Sarah
Glenn, the CEO of Accor Hotels.
And now here we are 30 episodeslater, still going strong.
(00:48):
A little bit of administration.
Something new here that I haveset up and I wanted to share
with you. Like all podcasts theshow does have some ongoing
costs associated with it. But sofar, I've handled this more as a
labour of love project, bringingyou a couple of new stories and
some great guests every month.
(01:08):
Many of you enjoy the show overa cup of coffee. So in honour of
that beautiful cup of coffee, Ihave opened up the ability for
you to help keep kicking thiscan down the road. For the cost
of a single cup of coffee amonth, and that's drip coffee,
not even the fancy mocha-chocolattes, you can subscribe and
become a Service Centersupporter. Now, do I have secret
(01:30):
paywalled content? No, I do not.
Do I have cool merch? Nope. Butwhat I do have is a microphone.
And so I will gleefully give youmany thankful shout outs in
future episodes - all for justone cup of coffee a month! Go
check out the link in the shownotes. If you'd like to do that.
I would greatly appreciate it.
(01:51):
It would keep the show goingstrong.
Speaking the show, back tobusiness. This is the second
part of my series talking withLesley Wong, an expert in hotel
interior design. To refresh ourmemories, Lesley is a graduate
of the New York School ofinterior design, who developed
her skills in design andconstruction with Four Seasons
Hotels and Resorts beforeopening up her own design group
(02:14):
in 2014. About Lesley Wonginteriors. Lesley brings a guest
first design strategy to herprojects and is completely
focused on interior creationswithin the hotel space. She has
worked with independentoperators and branded properties
right across Canada. Let's jumpback into my conversation with
Leslie Wong. As always, my nameis William Murray and welcome to
(02:36):
The Service Center.
When we spoke earlier, I wasbringing up this idea of of the
servicescape - the servicescapebeing a concept designed by Mary
Jo Bittner and Bernard Booms inthe early 1980s. And Mary Jo
(02:56):
Bittner created a career out oftalking about the servicescape.
The idea of the servicescapebeing that it is the environment
in which services are assembled,in which the customer and the
service provider are areinteracting. But more
specifically, it's the tangiblecommodities. Bitner and Booms
(03:19):
call it "the tangiblecommodities that facilitate
performance or communication ofservice", which is everything
that we're talking about in theenvironment. And these tangible
commodities communicate to ourcustomers, whether we are
providing them with somethingthat's pleasurable, or
unpleasurable, that arousestheir emotions or mutes their
(03:43):
emotions, or makes them create adecision of 'I want to approach
that particular piece offurniture', 'I want to approach
this environment', or 'I want toavoid that completely'.
Bitner and Booms wrote that inthe early 1980s. Just last year,
though, you wrote a piece called'Are you creating a luxury
(04:04):
travel experience' - it's one ofyour blog pieces on your on your
website. And in that piece, youdiscuss how design engages human
senses. That is the non-humanelements are engaging our human
senses, four of them. So, we'llthrow out taste. (Laugh). We
have hearing, smell, sight andtouch. How do these non-human
(04:27):
these design elements impactthis sense? Sensarally?
Sense-orally? I'm making upwords here!
Lesley Wong (04:36):
That's okay!
William Murray (04:36):
Through our senses. I have an English degree
I could just make one. How doesthis show up in design so that
we are engaging these foursenses of touch, sight, smell
and hearing so that we aregetting that pleasure, that
arousal, that attraction?
Lesley Wong (04:55):
Well, you think about it when you go to a coffee
shop. The sense of smell isengaged right away, you smell
coffee and you're like, Oh, Ithink I might like a coffee. Or
you go into a bakery, I think Imight like a croissant.
William Murray (05:07):
I know that designers put the vents for
bakeries at the front. So, Iwalk towards a bakery and I
smell the fresh bread and I ammagically sucked into the bakery
and I will be spending $8 on aloaf of artisanal bread. It's
out of my control. I blame youthe designers.
Lesley Wong (05:27):
But that's an example of how it works. Right.
And and textiles are a fantasticway that. I'm personally
exploring more and more, youthink of the fuzzy pillow, you
know, you're you see a sofa, thesofa might be leather, which you
know, we know that the the thetouch of leather, but you put a
fuzzy pillow onto it, and that'swhat you want to go touch. You
(05:49):
want to go touch the fuzzypillow because it feels soft and
comforting and fun to runthrough your fingers. The site,
obviously, whether it bestimulating or calming, has an
impact through colour, throughform, through art, really -
which the room in itself can beconsidered a canvas, and
(06:11):
everything you put onto thatcanvas is now part of this piece
of art. And then soundobviously, if you want hustle
and bustle and a lot of noise,then there may be going to Union
Station is for you. But ifyou're coming to a place where
you want to rest and feel atpeace and sort of relax, then
(06:34):
you know, spa music is typicalfor when you're you're getting
massage, that kind of thing.
Something that's going tostimulate that sense of
relaxation, or sound could be,hey, I'm in this really cool
hotel is themed around music.
And it's playing my favouritemusic from the 60s, the 70s, the
(06:54):
80s, right. And I feel reallygood. I feel like I want to
dance a little bit or somethinglike that. So all these senses
are engaged. And I think if wepay attention to them, as a
hotelier, you can really make asuccess of your guest
experience. If you ignore themnow, I think it can be a lost
(07:14):
opportunity.
William Murray (07:16):
I almost think that good hotels, when they get
design, right, it's not just onedesign. And correct me if I'm
wrong, because you're you're theexpert in design here. But it is
almost like you're storyboardingspaces and feelings within those
spaces. So here's how I want youto feel outside of my building,
here's how I want you to feel inthe lobby. If it's a lobby bar,
(07:39):
physically, through design,through the floors, through the
music, through the lights, Iwant you to feel differently in
the lobby bar. I want you tofeel different in the
restaurant. I want you to feeldifferent in the hallway. I want
you to feel different in yourguests.
Lesley Wong (07:53):
Absolutely. And as much as they are different, they
all are interconnected to youknow, through, say one or two
particular colours that carrythrough the whole space, or is
it a certain carpet that runsfrom one space to the next, the
tiles - almost like aWayfinding, even if we might. So
(08:14):
as much as they are separate,they're still interconnected. So
you feel like you can naturallymove through the space.
William Murray (08:21):
We were recently down at the Fairmont Royal York.
And I had spoken to EdwinFrizeell, on the show about the
multi year extremely expensiverenovation that they did within
their their lobby space, therestaurants in the lobby bar.
But as we received a privatetour through that space, what
myself and my colleague realisedwas, we were emotionally being
(08:45):
transported. It was just a fouro'clock in the afternoon and we
were wandering through the lobbybar, and then the secondary
lobby bar, the library, and thenthe restaurant, and then a
private dining area. And thenback into the lobby. They've
segmented colour, style, mood,sound, lighting, and they've
(09:09):
used all of these elements. Theystill tie together, but you feel
like you are in distinctlydifferent spaces.
Lesley Wong (09:17):
It's awesome how that can really have an impact
on the on the mind and youremotions. And I really think
that's key in repeat guestexperience.
William Murray (09:30):
Do you think...
and this is a tricky question,because I know you work with a
lot of operators. Do you thinkoperators appreciate the full
spectrum of sensory influencesthat come at them through
design? Or is this part of theeducational component that you
have to bring as a designer andshare that?
Lesley Wong (09:51):
This is a tricky question to answer because you
don't want to offend anyone. Butbeing a hotelier, many that I've
experienced of hotel ownershipsor management, they are number
crunchers or they look at thebottom line. And they look at
the operation side first, andthat's very important for
(10:16):
running a successful business -guaranteed. But this design
element is a component that canenhance your business plan, or,
yeah, I guess business plan isthe right word. So...
William Murray (10:29):
You refer to it as one of the hotel's greatest
assets.
It is. It is! Because it'salmost like the candy coating on
an M&M. You've got what you needto have to have a successful
hotel. But this layer of thepretty rapping on a gift, you
know, the gift is great, but thepretty wrapping, it attracts you
(10:51):
in and makes you want to openit. And the design has such a
strong impact, it's almost like,we do have to educate hotel
owners. We do have to remindthem that yes, if you invest a
little bit of your capital, thenwhat it can give you is great
(11:12):
reviews on platforms, travelplatforms. It can give you great
guest experience who feed thosegreat reviews, who increases
your your numbers, not onlyfinancially but in reports from,
say the brand that you'reaffiliated with. And it just,
it's almost like it, it lifts itup your bottom line. And I know
(11:35):
a lot of people these days aretrying to buy homes and sell
homes. And we often say, 'Well,you know, you can sell your home
for a million dollars, or youcan sell it for a million and a
half dollars if you stage it!'Right? If you get someone to
come in and make it look prettyand finish off what you started.
And it's a small investment, buthas huge return. Same principle
(11:56):
applies, you know, you can havea shell or a skeleton of a
business, but we come in anddress it up and do the right
things to make it that muchmore, then it's really worth the
investment.
And you have written about thisbefore. Hoteliers is have a lot
of moving parts, they have torun an operation, they have to
(12:18):
deal with guest movement on aday to day, week to week basis.
They have to handle pandemics.
They have to deal with talentshortages. There's a capacity
within the human mind that wecan only deal with so many
things. And so when I say isthere an educational portion of
that, I mean that in the mostcomplimentary way to you, as
well as to hoteliers. Because wedo rely on experts to tell us
(12:41):
those things that maybe we'renot paying enough attention to.
I love the way that you talkabout creating things like
Instagrammable moments, andmaking sure that there are
pieces in your property. Howimportant is that language today
and in using social media andthe visual dominance of
(13:01):
Instagram and Tik Tok andSnapchat as ways of sharing your
design and your brand?
Lesley Wong (13:10):
From me, it's an option that I... well, it's not
an option. It's a must thesedays, because everybody's so
visual, and visual in aninstant, so to speak. You know,
you flip through social mediaand if it catches your
attention, your eyes might layon it for two or three seconds -
more than just flip. So youthink about that in the
(13:34):
framework of a hotel, so howmuch more so then is that
Instagrammable moment, thatsocial media moment, important.
For me as a designer, it's avery visual business, what we
do. And so making things lookgood, and then also function, is
all of what we do.
So for example, we did aproperty in Thunder Bay. We had
(13:58):
a huge 14 foot by 16 foot muraldesigned specifically for the
lobby so that anyone andeveryone could come in and say,
"Hey, I'm at that really coolhotel!", and here's the
photographic evidence of medoing so. Or it could be
something as simple as inWhistler, we're doing a project
and we have a backdrop and anactual old chairlift that we're
(14:22):
putting in front of the backdropto make you look as if you're
going up a ski hill in Whistler,and it could be in the middle of
summer, right? But all thosethings offer opportunities that
can be missed, because it's freemarketing really, when you think
about it. And that just servesyou well, you know? Hey, I'm at
that really cool hotel with thatthat I saw on Instagram!
William Murray (14:45):
You're getting a pull factor as well, because now
people want to go and be part ofthat moment. They want to have
their photo taken in that spaceand they want to share and talk
about it. So you're creating aguest engagement? Where do you
want to stay? I want to stay atthe property that has X Y, Z!
(15:06):
Oh, I saw this property onInstagram three or four times.
Let's go there.
Exactly. And I think we can'tdiscount that type of traveller.
And I think it depends also towhat age bracket you're looking
at, and what your hotel isgeared towards, which goes back
to your ideal guest. Knowingthat guest and knowing what
(15:28):
attracts them, you feed intothat.
We've gone through the pandemic,and a lot of companies either
just near the tail end of thepandemic, or now, were trying to
figure out what they do withtheir their PIPS - their
property investment plans - andwhere do they spend money,
(15:51):
because now we're in a rebound.
A lot of the rebound that we'veseen in 2020 to 2023 has been
driven by leisure, and peoplejust have that pent up demand I
need to travel! I have all myvacation money just sitting in
bank - letter rip! Hotels, also,though, need to be thinking
about their design for the next,I was gonna say five to 10
(16:11):
years, but 10 years seems so faraway in terms of design, because
things change so fast. Over thenext five years, where do you
think operators should befocusing in terms of design?
Lesley Wong (16:27):
It's a really good question. I mean, the whole
point of hospitality, the wholedefinition of hospitality is
showing kindness or generosityto strangers. And I think let's
not lose sight of that. If youhave guests that are willing to
come to your hotel, and spendtheir money and spend their time
(16:50):
and make memories with theirfamily, or friends, then give
them an experience. Don't losethat human connection! Show that
true experience of hospitalityand keep that connection there.
Because I think that will serveas not only a hotel, a hotelier,
I think it's serves us as humanbeings. You know, we've gone
(17:10):
through the pandemic and we'vehad that disconnect from each
other for two, three years.
Making that social connectionagain, and making it - making an
environment that's conducive togood social connection - I think
it has to be where things go.
William Murray (17:26):
Now, in terms of social connection, from a design
perspective, would you think ofthat more as social spaces and
opportunities for people to makeconnection? I'm seeing increase
in lobby spaces serving associal spaces. I know, even 10
years ago, Marriott was talkingabout reducing the furniture in
(17:50):
their room because Millennialsdid not want to stay in their
room. They wanted to be in thelobby where there was energy and
hustle and bustle. But thesocial spaces? Would you
recommend that hotel? You spenda little bit more time focused
on that?
Lesley Wong (18:03):
Yeah, I think we are social creatures, no matter
what. Yes, there are individualsthat are a little bit more, I
guess, independent. But, for themost part, and again, seeing it
from a guest perspective, if I'mtravelling alone for business,
and I'm, you know, I've been ina crowded convention all day
(18:25):
long, and I've had my fill ofpeople, then I will go and I
will enjoy the peace and quietin my hotel room. But if I'm
travelling alone, or with myhusband or partner, business
associate, maybe we do want tosocialise a little bit more.
Maybe we do want to look atsitting in a common area, but
(18:46):
still maybe in a vignette fortwo. So I think what we're
seeing a lot more now is thoselarger common spaces that have a
lot more furniture, flexibilityand form that, you know, you can
be still in a large room withother people, but not
necessarily in each other's way.
There are things like a communaltable as well, that if you've
(19:09):
got your laptop, and you need tocharge your devices that that's
there and you grab a cup ofcoffee before your your
afternoon meeting, and otherscan join you and hey, you know,
did you see the news, the TV'sup there. Great weather we're
having! Or another storm on itsway... whatever it might be. And
you can interact as much or aslittle as you like. But I think
(19:33):
having those larger open spaceswith flexible furnishing is
something I see as anopportunity coming up that that
hotels may want to considermoving forward.
William Murray (19:50):
I want to pick your brains really quickly. When
a designer comes in and sets thestage, because that's really
what you're doing, is you'resetting a stage for an
experience to be performed,whether it's front of house or
heart of house. And you'reexecuting a vision. At some
point in time, though, you leaveyour you go to the next project,
(20:12):
and it becomes the hotelesresponsibility to maintain that
image. And it's not the General
frontline service staffs. How dowe, and I don't know the answer
to this question, but how do weeducate our front line talent,
(20:36):
about the power of design andhow quickly we can disrupt the
illusion?
Lesley Wong (20:42):
That is a great, that's a great one. Um, I know
that when we go into designing ahotel, we will often just sort
of wander the halls that speakto housekeeping and say, 'Hey,
what do you like about cleaningthis room? What do you hate
about cleaning this room?'. Andtheir feedback gives us
something to go off of. Quiteoften when I'm waiting for the
(21:05):
GM to come and greet me at thereception, maybe he's busy in
the back of house, I'll speak toreception. I'll say. 'Hey, what
do you love about your receptiondesk? What do you hate about
your reception desk? What wouldyou like to see?" And all of
these little conversations addup to a... I don't know what the
right word was... but they addup to pieces of information that
(21:27):
we then take can incorporateinto our design. So I think when
they know that they've beenlistened to, and paid attention
to those team members will say,Oh, yeah, I remember talking to
Leslie and we talked about howthis works, this doesn't work.
And she paid attention andhere's the design response to
that. I feel more engaged, Ifeel more appreciated. Yeah, I'm
(21:50):
gonna personally be invested inmaking sure that my area is
maintained or looked after, orwhatever it might be. I think
that that engagement really goesfar, and make people feel
listened to and incorporatedinto the design.
William Murray (22:13):
The inclusion is very important. And I'm glad
that you said that. When Italked to my senior students,
when we talk about facility anddesign, a term I use frequently
is called Managing the Evidence.
Max Ward used to say, if thetray table is broken on the
airplane then the engine must bemalfunctioning. We use the
evidence in front of us to infermeaning in services and quality
(22:36):
of products that we cannot see.
So the idea of a burnt out lightbulb can disrupt the illusion,
because the burnt out lightbulb, well, if that's not fixed,
what else is wrong with thedesign?
Lesley Wong (22:51):
Good observation.
William Murray (22:52):
Yeah, that was driven home to me by a senior
That's a very good point. Yeah,yeah. And as much as, I like how
level manager when I was a frontline desk agent. We used to play
a game called 'how many?'. It'sa silly game. But he used to
walk up in the morning at about6:30 in the morning, because I
was on the early morning shift,and he would just say, 'how
many?'. And the question reallywas, how many light bulbs are
(23:14):
burnt out in the lobby. It was amountain property, so it was a
horrible game to play becauseall of the light fixtures were
the like deer and moose antlers.
So there, there might have been800 light bulbs in the lobby.
Every morning, he who just say,'how many?'. And for the first
week or two? I have no idea! Butit didn't take me long to
realise, at the beginning of myshift, I need to look up, pay
(23:37):
attention to the designelements, and put in those work
orders. Because if he's seeingthem, guests are seen.
you use the word illusion, yes.
But that's that's what we do.
You know, we give people a lookand feel that they want to
(23:58):
gravitate towards in order togive them a good guest
experience.
As I study you, as I learn aboutyour design and what you've done
and what you write about, theidea of feeling comes up time
and time again. And I can onlythink that if a guests were to
walk into one of your rooms andnot feel something. I think,
(24:23):
what do the kids - meh?
Lesley Wong (24:24):
Yeah (laughs).
William Murray (24:26):
I walk in and it's fine. You know, it's a
room. I've not been triggered tofeel anything. The elegance, the
romance, the warmth... whateverthe feeling that you're trying
to design. It would be that, Ifelt nothing... that would be
(24:48):
hard as a designer.
Lesley Wong (24:50):
Yeah, there's a real balance we have to strike
between what, say for example,what a brand dictates that they
want in their guestoom. If youare doing a boutique hotel and
you have carte blanche fordesign, then it just soars. You
know according to budget. But,but that's where we really get
(25:16):
to put our personality, ourflair into a guest room or
lobby, restaurant, wherever itmight be. And that, for
designers, is a real thrill. Butit doesn't mean to say that, you
know, your standards, branddictated design plan can't have
(25:38):
personality either. You know,brands spend a lot of time money
and effort, putting in researchputting together these these
guestrooms. And that has to beacknowledged, I think,
William Murray (25:52):
I believe that it's a big bonus that a lot of
brands are understanding, thatalthough we do need to have
brand standards, having cookiecutter rooms based on geographic
region, and culture and localflair, if we don't take those
contexts into consideration,we've just become a commodity.
(26:14):
So, that brand standard with acreative twist is something that
you could you could bring to thetable.
Lesley Wong (26:22):
So, for example, there's one hotel we're doing
and, actually a couple of hotelstonight now that I think about
it, they will say here's ourdesign plan, this is what we
want you to implement, but bringsomething from the area, whether
it be artwork or a mural, orwhether it be something local
(26:43):
that identifies that hotel fromwhere it comes from. Whether it
be the lakeshore views andsunsets, whether it be the
sports arenas that are aroundabout and the history of that,
whatever it might be.
William Murray (26:58):
I don't think guests are looking for that
cookie cutter, one size fits allcommodity bland experience
anymore. And it really does openit up to creating feelings with
guests. There is so much to talkabout in terms of design. But I
want to end with this question.
If I were to invite you in to aroom of young hospitality
(27:21):
students, people who are keenand interested, and ask you
this (27:27):
What makes for good design?
Lesley Wong (27:32):
First thing I think of is to breathe the space. I
think just taking a moment andabsorbing what you're... the
messages that are coming at youwhen you walk into a space in
hospitality. Just breathe thespace. That's how I describe. It
is so key, because from there,you'll learn so much about the
hotel, about the hotelownership, about the brand.
(27:56):
Don't discount the prettythings. Don't discount the
sensory experience that you arereceiving. Breathe the room. See
how you're physically reactingto it and mentally reacting to
it and go from there. Obviously,you want this to be a positive
(28:17):
experience, one that's engaging,and will have repeat guests
coming again and again andagain. You want your hotel to be
that one that people are talkingabout in a positive way guest
reviews. Those are the thingsthat you really need to pay
attention to. And I think forhoteliers coming up, going
through school, and learning allabout this. Don't discount what
(28:41):
design can do for your hotel.
William Murray (28:43):
I am 110% stealing that phrase, by the
way, I will give you fullcredit. Breath the space! When I
take my students out to doproperty tours, I'm going to use
that and just say, 'take aminute, settle yourself, listen
to the messages you're receivingand breathe the space,. And
that's fantastic advice for forjust about anybody, from from
(29:06):
somebody just coming into thehospitality industry and
understanding space, to peoplewho have been around for more
than a couple of decades.
Because sometimes we can assumethat the space is just the space
and we take it for granted.
That's what I was looking for.
We take the space for granted.
Leslie, it's been fantastic tospend some time talking to you
(29:28):
about design, I reallyappreciate all of your insights
in the feelings that you bringtowards design, full circle,
about how your environment hasinfluenced who you are moving
from small town northern Ontariointo the big city in Toronto,
and working with the FourSeasons. And now out on your own
(29:50):
influencing spaces for otherpeople. And now you are the
pebble who is creating ripplesin the experiences for 1000s
upon 1000s of guests that arestaying in hotels that you've
touched.
Lesley Wong (30:02):
Yeah, when you think about it, it's kind of
huge. Coming from the small towngirl to the impact I can have on
other people. It's a privilege,I think and something I enjoy
immensely and want to keep doingbecause it's so enjoyable. I
tell people I feel so fortunateto be able to do something like
(30:24):
that. It's a cool job. There'sno way around that. But like you
say, you have an impact onpeople. And that's that's the
best part.
William Murray (30:41):
Okay, how great was it to hear from someone in
love with both design and thehotel industry? Leslie was
fantastic in showcasing theimportance of the intentional
design of space and itsrelationship with great service,
Her work, and really herpassion, is to use the tangibles
of a physical environment as themedium of communication so that
(31:03):
customers can immediatelyunderstand a property's service
nature. Next time you're in aplace be sure to breathe it in
and understand how that spaceimpacts your impressions.
Now, if you enjoyed thisepisode, take a moment and share
it with your network. If youliked it, no doubt one of your
colleagues will also find valuehere. It also helps the show if
(31:24):
you hit that subscribe button,or leave a review. Let me know
who you'd like to hear in futureepisodes. The Service Center
podcast is hosted and producedby me, William Murray, and our
cover art is created by JackDesigns. Thanks for choosing to
spend your time here and Iinvite you back for more guests
stories and service insight onthe next episode of The Service
(31:44):
Center.
Hi there, I'm William Murray. Welcome to the
Service Centre.
Lesley Wong (00:05):
The room in itself can be considered a canvas and
everything you put onto thatCanvas is now part of this piece
of art
William Murray (00:26):
Welcome back to The Service Center, our little
corner of the podcast-scapewhere we look at people,
stories, and insights inhospitality and service. You
know, it's hard to believe butthis is episode 30. It seems
just like yesterday that I satdown for episode 1 with Sarah
Glenn, the CEO of Accor Hotels.
And now here we are 30 episodeslater, still going strong.
(00:48):
A little bit of administration.
Something new here that I haveset up and I wanted to share
with you. Like all podcasts theshow does have some ongoing
costs associated with it. But sofar, I've handled this more as a
labour of love project, bringingyou a couple of new stories and
some great guests every month.
(01:08):
Many of you enjoy the show overa cup of coffee. So in honour of
that beautiful cup of coffee, Ihave opened up the ability for
you to help keep kicking thiscan down the road. For the cost
of a single cup of coffee amonth, and that's drip coffee,
not even the fancy mocha-chocolattes, you can subscribe and
become a Service Centersupporter. Now, do I have secret
(01:30):
paywalled content? No, I do not.
Do I have cool merch? Nope. Butwhat I do have is a microphone.
And so I will gleefully give youmany thankful shout outs in
future episodes - all for justone cup of coffee a month! Go
check out the link in the shownotes. If you'd like to do that.
I would greatly appreciate it.
(01:51):
It would keep the show goingstrong.
Speaking the show, back tobusiness. This is the second
part of my series talking withLesley Wong, an expert in hotel
interior design. To refresh ourmemories, Lesley is a graduate
of the New York School ofinterior design, who developed
her skills in design andconstruction with Four Seasons
Hotels and Resorts beforeopening up her own design group
(02:14):
in 2014. About Lesley Wonginteriors. Lesley brings a guest
first design strategy to herprojects and is completely
focused on interior creationswithin the hotel space. She has
worked with independentoperators and branded properties
right across Canada. Let's jumpback into my conversation with
Leslie Wong. As always, my nameis William Murray and welcome to
(02:36):
The Service Center.
When we spoke earlier, I wasbringing up this idea of of the
servicescape - the servicescapebeing a concept designed by Mary
Jo Bittner and Bernard Booms inthe early 1980s. And Mary Jo
(02:56):
Bittner created a career out oftalking about the servicescape.
The idea of the servicescapebeing that it is the environment
in which services are assembled,in which the customer and the
service provider are areinteracting. But more
specifically, it's the tangiblecommodities. Bitner and Booms
(03:19):
call it "the tangiblecommodities that facilitate
performance or communication ofservice", which is everything
that we're talking about in theenvironment. And these tangible
commodities communicate to ourcustomers, whether we are
providing them with somethingthat's pleasurable, or
unpleasurable, that arousestheir emotions or mutes their
(03:43):
emotions, or makes them create adecision of 'I want to approach
that particular piece offurniture', 'I want to approach
this environment', or 'I want toavoid that completely'.
Bitner and Booms wrote that inthe early 1980s. Just last year,
though, you wrote a piece called'Are you creating a luxury
(04:04):
travel experience' - it's one ofyour blog pieces on your on your
website. And in that piece, youdiscuss how design engages human
senses. That is the non-humanelements are engaging our human
senses, four of them. So, we'llthrow out taste. (Laugh). We
have hearing, smell, sight andtouch. How do these non-human
(04:27):
these design elements impactthis sense? Sensarally?
Sense-orally? I'm making upwords here!
Lesley Wong (04:36):
That's okay!
William Murray (04:36):
Through our senses. I have an English degree
I could just make one. How doesthis show up in design so that
we are engaging these foursenses of touch, sight, smell
and hearing so that we aregetting that pleasure, that
arousal, that attraction?
Lesley Wong (04:55):
Well, you think about it when you go to a coffee
shop. The sense of smell isengaged right away, you smell
coffee and you're like, Oh, Ithink I might like a coffee. Or
you go into a bakery, I think Imight like a croissant.
William Murray (05:07):
I know that designers put the vents for
bakeries at the front. So, Iwalk towards a bakery and I
smell the fresh bread and I ammagically sucked into the bakery
and I will be spending $8 on aloaf of artisanal bread. It's
out of my control. I blame youthe designers.
Lesley Wong (05:27):
But that's an example of how it works. Right.
And and textiles are a fantasticway that. I'm personally
exploring more and more, youthink of the fuzzy pillow, you
know, you're you see a sofa, thesofa might be leather, which you
know, we know that the the thetouch of leather, but you put a
fuzzy pillow onto it, and that'swhat you want to go touch. You
(05:49):
want to go touch the fuzzypillow because it feels soft and
comforting and fun to runthrough your fingers. The site,
obviously, whether it bestimulating or calming, has an
impact through colour, throughform, through art, really -
which the room in itself can beconsidered a canvas, and
(06:11):
everything you put onto thatcanvas is now part of this piece
of art. And then soundobviously, if you want hustle
and bustle and a lot of noise,then there may be going to Union
Station is for you. But ifyou're coming to a place where
you want to rest and feel atpeace and sort of relax, then
(06:34):
you know, spa music is typicalfor when you're you're getting
massage, that kind of thing.
Something that's going tostimulate that sense of
relaxation, or sound could be,hey, I'm in this really cool
hotel is themed around music.
And it's playing my favouritemusic from the 60s, the 70s, the
(06:54):
80s, right. And I feel reallygood. I feel like I want to
dance a little bit or somethinglike that. So all these senses
are engaged. And I think if wepay attention to them, as a
hotelier, you can really make asuccess of your guest
experience. If you ignore themnow, I think it can be a lost
(07:14):
opportunity.
William Murray (07:16):
I almost think that good hotels, when they get
design, right, it's not just onedesign. And correct me if I'm
wrong, because you're you're theexpert in design here. But it is
almost like you're storyboardingspaces and feelings within those
spaces. So here's how I want youto feel outside of my building,
here's how I want you to feel inthe lobby. If it's a lobby bar,
(07:39):
physically, through design,through the floors, through the
music, through the lights, Iwant you to feel differently in
the lobby bar. I want you tofeel different in the
restaurant. I want you to feeldifferent in the hallway. I want
you to feel different in yourguests.
Lesley Wong (07:53):
Absolutely. And as much as they are different, they
all are interconnected to youknow, through, say one or two
particular colours that carrythrough the whole space, or is
it a certain carpet that runsfrom one space to the next, the
tiles - almost like aWayfinding, even if we might. So
(08:14):
as much as they are separate,they're still interconnected. So
you feel like you can naturallymove through the space.
William Murray (08:21):
We were recently down at the Fairmont Royal York.
And I had spoken to EdwinFrizeell, on the show about the
multi year extremely expensiverenovation that they did within
their their lobby space, therestaurants in the lobby bar.
But as we received a privatetour through that space, what
myself and my colleague realisedwas, we were emotionally being
(08:45):
transported. It was just a fouro'clock in the afternoon and we
were wandering through the lobbybar, and then the secondary
lobby bar, the library, and thenthe restaurant, and then a
private dining area. And thenback into the lobby. They've
segmented colour, style, mood,sound, lighting, and they've
(09:09):
used all of these elements. Theystill tie together, but you feel
like you are in distinctlydifferent spaces.
Lesley Wong (09:17):
It's awesome how that can really have an impact
on the on the mind and youremotions. And I really think
that's key in repeat guestexperience.
William Murray (09:30):
Do you think...
and this is a tricky question,because I know you work with a
lot of operators. Do you thinkoperators appreciate the full
spectrum of sensory influencesthat come at them through
design? Or is this part of theeducational component that you
have to bring as a designer andshare that?
Lesley Wong (09:51):
This is a tricky question to answer because you
don't want to offend anyone. Butbeing a hotelier, many that I've
experienced of hotel ownershipsor management, they are number
crunchers or they look at thebottom line. And they look at
the operation side first, andthat's very important for
(10:16):
running a successful business -guaranteed. But this design
element is a component that canenhance your business plan, or,
yeah, I guess business plan isthe right word. So...
William Murray (10:29):
You refer to it as one of the hotel's greatest
assets.
It is. It is! Because it'salmost like the candy coating on
an M&M. You've got what you needto have to have a successful
hotel. But this layer of thepretty rapping on a gift, you
know, the gift is great, but thepretty wrapping, it attracts you
(10:51):
in and makes you want to openit. And the design has such a
strong impact, it's almost like,we do have to educate hotel
owners. We do have to remindthem that yes, if you invest a
little bit of your capital, thenwhat it can give you is great
(11:12):
reviews on platforms, travelplatforms. It can give you great
guest experience who feed thosegreat reviews, who increases
your your numbers, not onlyfinancially but in reports from,
say the brand that you'reaffiliated with. And it just,
it's almost like it, it lifts itup your bottom line. And I know
(11:35):
a lot of people these days aretrying to buy homes and sell
homes. And we often say, 'Well,you know, you can sell your home
for a million dollars, or youcan sell it for a million and a
half dollars if you stage it!'Right? If you get someone to
come in and make it look prettyand finish off what you started.
And it's a small investment, buthas huge return. Same principle
(11:56):
applies, you know, you can havea shell or a skeleton of a
business, but we come in anddress it up and do the right
things to make it that muchmore, then it's really worth the
investment.
And you have written about thisbefore. Hoteliers is have a lot
of moving parts, they have torun an operation, they have to
(12:18):
deal with guest movement on aday to day, week to week basis.
They have to handle pandemics.
They have to deal with talentshortages. There's a capacity
within the human mind that wecan only deal with so many
things. And so when I say isthere an educational portion of
that, I mean that in the mostcomplimentary way to you, as
well as to hoteliers. Because wedo rely on experts to tell us
(12:41):
those things that maybe we'renot paying enough attention to.
I love the way that you talkabout creating things like
Instagrammable moments, andmaking sure that there are
pieces in your property. Howimportant is that language today
and in using social media andthe visual dominance of
(13:01):
Instagram and Tik Tok andSnapchat as ways of sharing your
design and your brand?
Lesley Wong (13:10):
From me, it's an option that I... well, it's not
an option. It's a must thesedays, because everybody's so
visual, and visual in aninstant, so to speak. You know,
you flip through social mediaand if it catches your
attention, your eyes might layon it for two or three seconds -
more than just flip. So youthink about that in the
(13:34):
framework of a hotel, so howmuch more so then is that
Instagrammable moment, thatsocial media moment, important.
For me as a designer, it's avery visual business, what we
do. And so making things lookgood, and then also function, is
all of what we do.
So for example, we did aproperty in Thunder Bay. We had
(13:58):
a huge 14 foot by 16 foot muraldesigned specifically for the
lobby so that anyone andeveryone could come in and say,
"Hey, I'm at that really coolhotel!", and here's the
photographic evidence of medoing so. Or it could be
something as simple as inWhistler, we're doing a project
and we have a backdrop and anactual old chairlift that we're
(14:22):
putting in front of the backdropto make you look as if you're
going up a ski hill in Whistler,and it could be in the middle of
summer, right? But all thosethings offer opportunities that
can be missed, because it's freemarketing really, when you think
about it. And that just servesyou well, you know? Hey, I'm at
that really cool hotel with thatthat I saw on Instagram!
William Murray (14:45):
You're getting a pull factor as well, because now
people want to go and be part ofthat moment. They want to have
their photo taken in that spaceand they want to share and talk
about it. So you're creating aguest engagement? Where do you
want to stay? I want to stay atthe property that has X Y, Z!
(15:06):
Oh, I saw this property onInstagram three or four times.
Let's go there.
Exactly. And I think we can'tdiscount that type of traveller.
And I think it depends also towhat age bracket you're looking
at, and what your hotel isgeared towards, which goes back
to your ideal guest. Knowingthat guest and knowing what
(15:28):
attracts them, you feed intothat.
We've gone through the pandemic,and a lot of companies either
just near the tail end of thepandemic, or now, were trying to
figure out what they do withtheir their PIPS - their
property investment plans - andwhere do they spend money,
(15:51):
because now we're in a rebound.
A lot of the rebound that we'veseen in 2020 to 2023 has been
driven by leisure, and peoplejust have that pent up demand I
need to travel! I have all myvacation money just sitting in
bank - letter rip! Hotels, also,though, need to be thinking
about their design for the next,I was gonna say five to 10
(16:11):
years, but 10 years seems so faraway in terms of design, because
things change so fast. Over thenext five years, where do you
think operators should befocusing in terms of design?
Lesley Wong (16:27):
It's a really good question. I mean, the whole
point of hospitality, the wholedefinition of hospitality is
showing kindness or generosityto strangers. And I think let's
not lose sight of that. If youhave guests that are willing to
come to your hotel, and spendtheir money and spend their time
(16:50):
and make memories with theirfamily, or friends, then give
them an experience. Don't losethat human connection! Show that
true experience of hospitalityand keep that connection there.
Because I think that will serveas not only a hotel, a hotelier,
I think it's serves us as humanbeings. You know, we've gone
(17:10):
through the pandemic and we'vehad that disconnect from each
other for two, three years.
Making that social connectionagain, and making it - making an
environment that's conducive togood social connection - I think
it has to be where things go.
William Murray (17:26):
Now, in terms of social connection, from a design
perspective, would you think ofthat more as social spaces and
opportunities for people to makeconnection? I'm seeing increase
in lobby spaces serving associal spaces. I know, even 10
years ago, Marriott was talkingabout reducing the furniture in
(17:50):
their room because Millennialsdid not want to stay in their
room. They wanted to be in thelobby where there was energy and
hustle and bustle. But thesocial spaces? Would you
recommend that hotel? You spenda little bit more time focused
on that?
Lesley Wong (18:03):
Yeah, I think we are social creatures, no matter
what. Yes, there are individualsthat are a little bit more, I
guess, independent. But, for themost part, and again, seeing it
from a guest perspective, if I'mtravelling alone for business,
and I'm, you know, I've been ina crowded convention all day
(18:25):
long, and I've had my fill ofpeople, then I will go and I
will enjoy the peace and quietin my hotel room. But if I'm
travelling alone, or with myhusband or partner, business
associate, maybe we do want tosocialise a little bit more.
Maybe we do want to look atsitting in a common area, but
(18:46):
still maybe in a vignette fortwo. So I think what we're
seeing a lot more now is thoselarger common spaces that have a
lot more furniture, flexibilityand form that, you know, you can
be still in a large room withother people, but not
necessarily in each other's way.
There are things like a communaltable as well, that if you've
(19:09):
got your laptop, and you need tocharge your devices that that's
there and you grab a cup ofcoffee before your your
afternoon meeting, and otherscan join you and hey, you know,
did you see the news, the TV'sup there. Great weather we're
having! Or another storm on itsway... whatever it might be. And
you can interact as much or aslittle as you like. But I think
(19:33):
having those larger open spaceswith flexible furnishing is
something I see as anopportunity coming up that that
hotels may want to considermoving forward.
William Murray (19:50):
I want to pick your brains really quickly. When
a designer comes in and sets thestage, because that's really
what you're doing, is you'resetting a stage for an
experience to be performed,whether it's front of house or
heart of house. And you'reexecuting a vision. At some
point in time, though, you leaveyour you go to the next project,
(20:12):
and it becomes the hotelesresponsibility to maintain that
image. And it's not the General
frontline service staffs. How dowe, and I don't know the answer
to this question, but how do weeducate our front line talent,
(20:36):
about the power of design andhow quickly we can disrupt the
illusion?
Lesley Wong (20:42):
That is a great, that's a great one. Um, I know
that when we go into designing ahotel, we will often just sort
of wander the halls that speakto housekeeping and say, 'Hey,
what do you like about cleaningthis room? What do you hate
about cleaning this room?'. Andtheir feedback gives us
something to go off of. Quiteoften when I'm waiting for the
(21:05):
GM to come and greet me at thereception, maybe he's busy in
the back of house, I'll speak toreception. I'll say. 'Hey, what
do you love about your receptiondesk? What do you hate about
your reception desk? What wouldyou like to see?" And all of
these little conversations addup to a... I don't know what the
right word was... but they addup to pieces of information that
(21:27):
we then take can incorporateinto our design. So I think when
they know that they've beenlistened to, and paid attention
to those team members will say,Oh, yeah, I remember talking to
Leslie and we talked about howthis works, this doesn't work.
And she paid attention andhere's the design response to
that. I feel more engaged, Ifeel more appreciated. Yeah, I'm
(21:50):
gonna personally be invested inmaking sure that my area is
maintained or looked after, orwhatever it might be. I think
that that engagement really goesfar, and make people feel
listened to and incorporatedinto the design.
William Murray (22:13):
The inclusion is very important. And I'm glad
that you said that. When Italked to my senior students,
when we talk about facility anddesign, a term I use frequently
is called Managing the Evidence.
Max Ward used to say, if thetray table is broken on the
airplane then the engine must bemalfunctioning. We use the
evidence in front of us to infermeaning in services and quality
(22:36):
of products that we cannot see.
So the idea of a burnt out lightbulb can disrupt the illusion,
because the burnt out lightbulb, well, if that's not fixed,
what else is wrong with thedesign?
Lesley Wong (22:51):
Good observation.
William Murray (22:52):
Yeah, that was driven home to me by a senior
That's a very good point. Yeah,yeah. And as much as, I like how
level manager when I was a frontline desk agent. We used to play
a game called 'how many?'. It'sa silly game. But he used to
walk up in the morning at about6:30 in the morning, because I
was on the early morning shift,and he would just say, 'how
many?'. And the question reallywas, how many light bulbs are
(23:14):
burnt out in the lobby. It was amountain property, so it was a
horrible game to play becauseall of the light fixtures were
the like deer and moose antlers.
So there, there might have been800 light bulbs in the lobby.
Every morning, he who just say,'how many?'. And for the first
week or two? I have no idea! Butit didn't take me long to
realise, at the beginning of myshift, I need to look up, pay
(23:37):
attention to the designelements, and put in those work
orders. Because if he's seeingthem, guests are seen.
you use the word illusion, yes.
But that's that's what we do.
You know, we give people a lookand feel that they want to
(23:58):
gravitate towards in order togive them a good guest
experience.
As I study you, as I learn aboutyour design and what you've done
and what you write about, theidea of feeling comes up time
and time again. And I can onlythink that if a guests were to
walk into one of your rooms andnot feel something. I think,
(24:23):
what do the kids - meh?
Lesley Wong (24:24):
Yeah (laughs).
William Murray (24:26):
I walk in and it's fine. You know, it's a
room. I've not been triggered tofeel anything. The elegance, the
romance, the warmth... whateverthe feeling that you're trying
to design. It would be that, Ifelt nothing... that would be
(24:48):
hard as a designer.
Lesley Wong (24:50):
Yeah, there's a real balance we have to strike
between what, say for example,what a brand dictates that they
want in their guestoom. If youare doing a boutique hotel and
you have carte blanche fordesign, then it just soars. You
know according to budget. But,but that's where we really get
(25:16):
to put our personality, ourflair into a guest room or
lobby, restaurant, wherever itmight be. And that, for
designers, is a real thrill. Butit doesn't mean to say that, you
know, your standards, branddictated design plan can't have
(25:38):
personality either. You know,brands spend a lot of time money
and effort, putting in researchputting together these these
guestrooms. And that has to beacknowledged, I think,
William Murray (25:52):
I believe that it's a big bonus that a lot of
brands are understanding, thatalthough we do need to have
brand standards, having cookiecutter rooms based on geographic
region, and culture and localflair, if we don't take those
contexts into consideration,we've just become a commodity.
(26:14):
So, that brand standard with acreative twist is something that
you could you could bring to thetable.
Lesley Wong (26:22):
So, for example, there's one hotel we're doing
and, actually a couple of hotelstonight now that I think about
it, they will say here's ourdesign plan, this is what we
want you to implement, but bringsomething from the area, whether
it be artwork or a mural, orwhether it be something local
(26:43):
that identifies that hotel fromwhere it comes from. Whether it
be the lakeshore views andsunsets, whether it be the
sports arenas that are aroundabout and the history of that,
whatever it might be.
William Murray (26:58):
I don't think guests are looking for that
cookie cutter, one size fits allcommodity bland experience
anymore. And it really does openit up to creating feelings with
guests. There is so much to talkabout in terms of design. But I
want to end with this question.
If I were to invite you in to aroom of young hospitality
(27:21):
students, people who are keenand interested, and ask you
this (27:27):
What makes for good design?
Lesley Wong (27:32):
First thing I think of is to breathe the space. I
think just taking a moment andabsorbing what you're... the
messages that are coming at youwhen you walk into a space in
hospitality. Just breathe thespace. That's how I describe. It
is so key, because from there,you'll learn so much about the
hotel, about the hotelownership, about the brand.
(27:56):
Don't discount the prettythings. Don't discount the
sensory experience that you arereceiving. Breathe the room. See
how you're physically reactingto it and mentally reacting to
it and go from there. Obviously,you want this to be a positive
(28:17):
experience, one that's engaging,and will have repeat guests
coming again and again andagain. You want your hotel to be
that one that people are talkingabout in a positive way guest
reviews. Those are the thingsthat you really need to pay
attention to. And I think forhoteliers coming up, going
through school, and learning allabout this. Don't discount what
(28:41):
design can do for your hotel.
William Murray (28:43):
I am 110% stealing that phrase, by the
way, I will give you fullcredit. Breath the space! When I
take my students out to doproperty tours, I'm going to use
that and just say, 'take aminute, settle yourself, listen
to the messages you're receivingand breathe the space,. And
that's fantastic advice for forjust about anybody, from from
(29:06):
somebody just coming into thehospitality industry and
understanding space, to peoplewho have been around for more
than a couple of decades.
Because sometimes we can assumethat the space is just the space
and we take it for granted.
That's what I was looking for.
We take the space for granted.
Leslie, it's been fantastic tospend some time talking to you
(29:28):
about design, I reallyappreciate all of your insights
in the feelings that you bringtowards design, full circle,
about how your environment hasinfluenced who you are moving
from small town northern Ontariointo the big city in Toronto,
and working with the FourSeasons. And now out on your own
(29:50):
influencing spaces for otherpeople. And now you are the
pebble who is creating ripplesin the experiences for 1000s
upon 1000s of guests that arestaying in hotels that you've
touched.
Lesley Wong (30:02):
Yeah, when you think about it, it's kind of
huge. Coming from the small towngirl to the impact I can have on
other people. It's a privilege,I think and something I enjoy
immensely and want to keep doingbecause it's so enjoyable. I
tell people I feel so fortunateto be able to do something like
(30:24):
that. It's a cool job. There'sno way around that. But like you
say, you have an impact onpeople. And that's that's the
best part.
William Murray (30:41):
Okay, how great was it to hear from someone in
love with both design and thehotel industry? Leslie was
fantastic in showcasing theimportance of the intentional
design of space and itsrelationship with great service,
Her work, and really herpassion, is to use the tangibles
of a physical environment as themedium of communication so that
(31:03):
customers can immediatelyunderstand a property's service
nature. Next time you're in aplace be sure to breathe it in
and understand how that spaceimpacts your impressions.
Now, if you enjoyed thisepisode, take a moment and share
it with your network. If youliked it, no doubt one of your
colleagues will also find valuehere. It also helps the show if
(31:24):
you hit that subscribe button,or leave a review. Let me know
who you'd like to hear in futureepisodes. The Service Center
podcast is hosted and producedby me, William Murray, and our
cover art is created by JackDesigns. Thanks for choosing to
spend your time here and Iinvite you back for more guests
stories and service insight onthe next episode of The Service
(31:44):
Center.
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