May 20, 2025 • 43 mins
Working with high-achievers and entrepreneurs, there are definite differences between these men and the general population. These differences require a unique approach when it comes to sex addiction recovery.
Sex addiction is a process addiction, meaning that guys have become addicted to thought processes. To recover, men need to discover what thought processes they have become addicted to. For successful men, these thought processes are generally not as sexual as you might think.
Typically, high performers are drawn to respect, admiration, accomplishment, and superiority. While great traits for becoming financially successful… they can cause problems in relationships.
Daniel Gowan, Certified Sex Addiction Therapist, and I talk about our experience working with high-achievers and how their recovery will need to look different.
If you are a high-achiever struggling with sex or porn addiction and you are looking for a group of like-minded men to recovery with, visit our website here: www.successfuladdict.comIf you live in Texas and are interested in working with Daniel or one of his therapists at D2 Counseling, you can follow the link here: https://d2counseling.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
In this episode, Daniel Goen and I talk
about
recovery
specifically as it applies to driven, successful men.
There are so many aspects that make recovery
harder for high achievers and entrepreneurs.
Lot of them cultural,
a lot of mental. We talk about all
of that in this episode.
You are listening to the sex addiction podcast
(00:21):
for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and entrepreneurs.
This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and
recovery principles specifically to the mindset of the
high achiever. I'm your host, Roland Cochran, founder
of The Successful Addict, a recovery group for
high achieving men struggling with sex and porn
addiction. For more information about joining our group
or attending our next retreat, visit successfuladdict.com.
(00:44):
And now enjoy the rest of the episode.
I'm here today with Daniel Gohen. Daniel, this
is a exciting topic you and I are
gonna dive into. I think you and I,
I really enjoyed when we first met because
we see eye to eye on this. Two
different approaches, but, to get to the same
objective. And I think we we share this,
(01:04):
and I like the direction that this conversation
is gonna go because I think it's very
applicable to the high achiever and the entrepreneur.
That all said, I I do think it's
very difficult to or impossible
to ask the high achiever to stop being
a high achiever for the sake of recovery
or anything else. And I think, you know,
the more that high achieving successful males can
(01:27):
understand,
you know, their divine design, what they've been
called to do because there is a very
real element of this,
DNA
drive with inside of them to, bring something
important to the world,
but that can be corrupted. So I think
I wanna I think you and I are
gonna kinda bob and weave in between,
why it's so challenging, especially in 2025 and
(01:49):
then The United States Of America to,
stay focused and do do what you're sent
to do. You know, I think it's very
common that we look at these men and
a lot of their behaviors as,
egregious, disgusting. We can't believe that they did
these things. You know, I think if though
if you stop and kind of zoom out
and really look at the environment that these
men are growing up in, it actually makes
(02:10):
a lot more sense than it doesn't make
sense. Now I'm not excusing the behaviors. I'm
not saying that they're not disgusting. I'm not
saying that they don't ruin families, that they
don't ruin your soul and, you know, bring
us to a a low place. I'm not
saying that. What I am saying is these
things make a lot more sense and it
makes quite a bit of sense especially for
high achieving and successful,
men. So, you know, where I'd like to
(02:31):
start this conversation is,
you know, in your opinion, as you're working
with guys like this,
where do you where do you see it,
begin to go wrong? What's what's kinda like
the first if we were to rewind all
the way back to maybe their teenage years,
what's that what's that, like, first deviation from
self that really
sticks with them and actually
(02:53):
further,
kind of, I guess, grows the chasm as
time goes on?
Yeah. One of the things we mentioned when
we were getting to know each other is
my mentor was Pia Mellody, and she was
the one that kinda developed the theory that
explains everything about human development.
And one of the things she talks about
is tied directly right back to
attachment theory of how well we are connected
(03:13):
with other people in our family when we
grow.
And where there are I mean, we're all
raised by humans, and so it's it's not
a thing of where we blame the parents,
but the reality is is that we deal
with the impact of what happened to us.
And I look at any addiction really or
any behavior, as pain management. And
so people will move into the area where
(03:34):
they get relief from the pain that they're
in or
distraction from,
something that's uncomfortable. If that's, you know, that
can be anything from over exercising
to,
drugs and alcohol to use of sex to
shopping or
or workaholism. You know? I mean, I get
tremendous relief out of, staying busy in business
(03:55):
and so forth like that. Make good money
with it, but there's also a price to
pay with relationships, with family, and so forth.
So, you know, what I look at is
when we look at somebody's history and we
get down to some of the stories of
what actually happened,
what we find is is that there has
been a natural occurrence into something that does
create this pain management, this relief.
(04:17):
And if it works, it works. And and,
you know, I don't get judgmental about what
it is that people use.
The most of the stuff is centered in
the lower brain. And and depending on what
the circumstance is, depending on what other circumstances
have happened, that's that predicates or will actually
predict what is
(04:37):
the comp compensatory
or the,
the pain management's gonna look like. And so
I'm never surprised by by what people use.
And and by the way,
one of my big experiences is as people
get a handle on one of them, like
whack a mole, it's gonna come out sideways.
One of the biggest we've seen one of
the biggest
(04:57):
influx of clients coming in around sex addiction
treatment, for example, have been recovering addicts who
have been overt from alcohol for a long
time, but they've got down final frontier and
they're willing to finally even look at that.
Mhmm. Yeah. It's a, you know, and I
wanna clarify for everybody listening because a common
a common misconception amongst high achieving men is
(05:18):
that you don't have negative emotions,
that there's that your life's amazing and there's
nothing you're escaping from. And I get that,
you know, why? Because I thought that too.
So when I got first got into the
sex addiction space, you know, I'm I'm working
through the the Facing the Shadows workbook as
we probably all do. And,
I'm reading a lot of it and I'm
just not resonating. I'm like, nah, I'm not
coping. I I don't consider myself a bad
(05:40):
person.
You know, it's and I'm reading it and
I'm just like, no. No. No. No. That
they got the wrong guy here. Here's what
I here's what I've learned though, and it's
exactly what you just said.
If you look at my behaviors, primarily, they
were around getting attention, validation. I wanted I
wanted to be wanted. I wanted women to
want to be with me sexually. I wanted
men to wish they could be me. Right?
That's my primary addiction. So it's all about
(06:01):
proving that I am the best, superior, impressive,
admirable, whatever it is. So think about it
though.
It's easy to say, oh, no. No. No.
I'm on a quest for for admiration and
respect. You know, there's nothing wrong with that.
Right? So that is easy to say. However,
why would you be on that quest? Right?
And that was where I started to realize,
okay. Yes. Maybe I'm not escaping
(06:23):
the traditional negative pains of hating my job
or hating my life or being unsatisfied with
my career because men in my position,
aren't those things.
However, why would I have to compulsively because
it was compulsive. There's no doubt about that.
I'm violating my value system. Why would I
compulsively
engage in these variety of practices? And to
(06:43):
your point, Daniel, it's not just sex.
If you look at if you look at
it, I wanted people to want me, wanna
be me, admire me, worship me, in all
areas. I wanted them to want my body.
I wanted them to want my money. I
wanted them to want my car. Right? So
if you if you if you reel it
all back, it's really still the same thing.
I must you know, and this is the
(07:04):
only psychological explanation. I must not feel
admirable,
respected as as I am without doing these
additional things
to get
the validation that, oh, okay.
That person looked at me, so I must
have a good body. That person gave me
a thumbs up to my car, so I
must, you know, I must be this, superior
(07:25):
accomplished male in my in my area.
So I just wanted to highlight that as
for everybody listening. You know, we're talking about
pain avoidance.
You know, the pain to me was, do
I matter? Am I impressive? Am I admirable?
Does anyone care? Am I accomplished? Right? So
it's me with this self doubt
going on these ventures to make sure that
(07:45):
I can prove to myself and everybody around
me that I am in fact these pieces.
That's pain though because
in the absence of the attention, in the
absence of the women staring at me, the
men admiring my car, if none of those
things were going on, would I be okay?
And Daniel, the answer, back then, you know,
pre recovery was no.
I was not okay. I needed I did.
(08:05):
I truly needed those things. If you told
me, hey, Roland, you can't you can't buy
nice cars anymore. You can't, all of your
you know, you get a monthly allowance and
you can't have anything over your your bare
minimum needs,
that would have been very unpleasant news and
I would not have wanted to hear that.
I I very much was dependent on
getting this external validation and respect and respect
(08:26):
and admiration
from people in my community. So I just
wanna be very clear. Just because you might
not think you're coping in the traditional sense
doesn't mean that you're not coping. Coping is
a coping means that you're doing a you're
doing practices
to try to fill a void. Right? And
that void can be as simple as a
lack of respect, admiration, and importance. Right? But
(08:47):
the other thing I wanna make sure you
wanna talk about is, Daniel, how much of
that though is
biological? Right? How much of my quest for
those things from my community
is part of my DNA and kind of
my calling? Right? You know, I often
I I again, I do wanna bring this
topic up with you because I think you
and I share this.
You know, there there is a lot of
(09:08):
me that wants to make an impact.
And so how do I find this balance?
Is it simply just not doing behaviors that
violate my morals and values? You know, kinda
help the couples who are dealing with this
problem. Because there is. There's this you know,
my wife, you know, one of her big
things was, are you keynote speaking just so
you can get your dopamine hit? And, I
had a hard time answering that, Daniel, because
(09:29):
I couldn't tell.
Yeah. Well and I think there's an overlap
that I'm not sure we ever fully get
to the answer to that.
The,
you know, what I would say is what
brings people to recovery generally is the the
bad results, the the discovery, the,
the DWI, whatever it is around their particular
coping mechanisms. And I think one of the
(09:49):
great questions we get to ask self,
that I'm asking clients when they come in
is, does your behavior align with your value
system? And a lot of people don't have
a value system when they first are asked
that that question. So we go through we
can go through that process
on a values clarification
exercise,
and then we have to get gut level
honest is where am I living my life
(10:10):
outside of those values. And that's a good
indicator to allow people to see
where they're at,
and and what it is they need to
do different. Because I think there's a clarity
that comes and a satisfaction that comes that
comes in life when we align our,
we align our behavior with our value system.
(10:31):
And that's that's where the integrity shows up.
And if I live my life in integrity,
there's a deeper level of satisfaction. And to
me, that's the spiritual connection that goes along
with it. And I don't have a need
to argue about whether that's,
Old Testament God, New Testament God, Buddha, Confucius,
whatever.
If we are living our lives in integrity,
(10:52):
we're gonna have a simpler way. And there's
a there's a satisfaction that comes. One of
the first things that'll pull people out of
their own ego that demands that I be
the focus of attention
is if we can learn to work with
somebody else. And that's a prep that's a
that's a,
that's that's one of the foundational
ideas within 12 step. It's one of the
foundational ideas of most religions is to get
(11:14):
out of self to to minimize the the
I, to minimize the ego, and to make
you bigger to where I can be of
service. Now if we do it just to
get the accolades to your point, it's not
it's gonna be hollow. Mhmm. But that's one
of the things I think that we can
look at is how lasting
is the dopamine hit. Is it a is
it a is it is it a momentary
(11:35):
thing that we get hollow
about five minutes later, or does it provide
a sense of satisfaction longer term? I know
that,
I can win the contest, and that's great
for a day.
When I've built a a healthy practice where
I get to help other people, there's a
deeper level of satisfaction that resonates with me.
And I'm not gonna say that my ego's
(11:56):
outside of either one of those because I
because I think there's a part of it,
that shows up. If if if we're an
entrepreneur, there's some level of narcissism in us,
or at least narcissism traits at some times.
And, so I acknowledge that
the the the
recovery is a process, and so it's one
of those things I continue to look at.
Listen. We don't know what we don't know.
(12:18):
And so I think one of the gifts
of recovery is we continue
in our growth to be curious about what
it is we don't know about ourselves and
remain humble enough to be curious about where
we're being asked to grow. If we can
step into that, look at ego, step out
of that, work with others,
then I think we do stand a better
(12:40):
chance of aligning our,
will with our creators, aligning our behaviors with
our integrity, and I think there's a deeper
satisfaction,
that that that walks with us in that.
Yeah. I agree. I I I call it
self mastery. I I like to call it
that instead of recovery because I mean, it's
really, you know, to me, the the sexually
compulsive behaviors happen in an unintentionally created environment
(13:02):
that allows them to happen. And but I
think that's worth discussing too because, Daniel, I
think, you know, for me,
this really I felt kinda like a victim
of
these behaviors. I I never really remember
wanting any of these in my life. They
they kind of came into my life, and
I don't remember,
(13:22):
and I was ashamed of them from the
beginning. I mean, they were never something that
I wanted. And I I I think that
it's worth you and I speaking to this
a little bit, you know.
Think about it. If you're a high achiever,
part of the definition is that you are
achieving things that are difficult to achieve. That's
that's that's part of the definition. It's why
a lot of high achievers chased just difficult
things to accomplish because society has just said
(13:45):
that's hard to get and then we go,
oh, we feel this kind of internal drive
to go do the thing that society has
labeled difficult. So here's the challenge though, and
this is where things started getting sloppy for
me and my addiction was
society said that sleeping with women of that
caliber was difficult.
So I took the challenge of, well, we'll
(14:05):
see how difficult it actually is. Right? And,
unfortunately, I was married. And so that kind
of introduced
this conquesting. In the beginning, I was able
to kind of keep it on lock and
not cross the flesh line and, you know,
my in my delusion, my my flirting was
not cheating which, you know, in my recovery
is absolutely cheating. But back then, you know,
that was not how I saw it. But
(14:26):
it got worse and worse and worse. But
my point the reason I'm bringing this up,
Daniel, is
there is this very real aspect of,
people who are called to serve and,
you know, be all things to all people.
There is this there is this aspect of
the ego where you're constantly surveying your environment
(14:47):
to figure out what is peep what are
people suffering from? What is hard to achieve?
What is hard for everybody else to achieve
that if I could make it easier for
them to achieve, I would improve their life.
So my point is, you know, there's this
there's this influence of the culture and the
society that we live around us, around their
perceived struggles. And I think that's where
(15:10):
sex addiction, I think, sneaks up on a
lot of these guys is it's we want
we want so much to impress these people,
to help others, to be to to live
an impressive life. And
unfortunately, I I think if you look at
our society, you know, if you came down
and you were an alien life form and
you never had been on earth and you
got dropped off in Los Angeles,
(15:31):
you would notice two things very quickly that
the bulk of people value money
and sex and sex appeal. I mean, it
will become very obvious that that is the
two things that our culture revolves around. So
my my question for you is,
you know, what do we do about that?
Because, I mean, in a way, isn't this
kind of like resting on the minds of
(15:52):
successful men? This this this constant kind of,
need for more money and more
sex and sex appeal. I mean, I you
know, maybe I'm projecting my,
you know, my world on everybody else's world,
but I don't know. It seems like when
I go to all the conferences that I
go to, seems like that's,
in successful male culture. Part of that is
(16:13):
how much money can we get and how
many women can we get, and then we're
just supposed to turn that off when we
get married.
Well, I do I would say that we
are self selective about who we choose to
hang around with, so maybe there's a challenge
for all of us in that. But what
I'd say is I think you're talking about
the difference between leading an unconscious and a
conscious life, and it's it's far harder to
(16:33):
live a conscious life. You know, we've got
the back to the I don't know what
I don't know.
We've got to make some choices about what's
we're going to claim as a value and
then
work out trying to figure out what detracts
from that and what holds us back from
doing that. If our bucket is empty around
the idea of esteem, because that's what we've
been talking about, is the is the core
(16:53):
issue of our esteem or our self value.
Yes. If that's the empty bucket, then we're
gonna have to fill that. The biologically,
the the window closes at about age six
or seven to to have that need. I
mean, the three
the three roles of a parent are to
affirm the child, nurture the child, and set
appropriate limits for the child. And a deficiency
(17:14):
in any of those areas is gonna lead
to problems around,
self esteem and value.
And so if we're left holding that,
if we're left holding that empty bucket,
the we can either chase it outside of
ourself, and that's where the pretty women or
the nice car or the the great shotgun
comes in.
But there's always somebody that's got a better
shotgun. There's always somebody that's got a prettier
(17:35):
wife or a prettier spouse or,
a nicer car, and and that bounces us
over back to feeling one down. And so
in this model of growth, if we can
reparent ourself, if we can turn that focus,
not in a selfish way or
a narcissistic way, but if we can look
(17:56):
at truly what's going on with us and
begin to reparent ourself, to value ourself for
who we are,
to do some self esteem exercises, to do
some self esteem work in group,
in some intensive therapies.
You know, there's some great places around the
country on-site, PCS.
There's some great places where we can actually
get some deep level of trauma work done.
(18:19):
I do a family of origin workshop, and
it's phenomenal to see people come through that
and see that empty bucket start to fill
back up to where they realize they don't
have to chase it outside of themselves as
an other esteem. They can begin to value
self in a self esteeming way, and it
pulls the need off to go focus on
that other stuff, to to go buy the
next rifle or shotgun. I'm I'm a hunter,
(18:41):
so I think of all these quality shotguns
I've seen. But,
or cars or,
pretty pretty people to hang around with. And
so with that,
you know, one of the mantras that I
offer clients is our strengths don't make us
better than,
our weaknesses don't make us less than. They
simply are our differences, and we're allowed to
(19:02):
be human even with our differences.
And so when we acknowledge that, then we
can hang out in that middle place where
we don't have to be one up or
one down, and we can begin to clearly
work on that self esteem bucket. Mhmm. Mhmm.
It's a and I think this is a
great time to pivot the conversation towards
really what you and I focus on. I
mean, you know, to me recovery,
(19:23):
I again, you know, I don't use that
word only because
it comes with this,
stigma in our society of becoming recovered and
and getting this out of your life, and
I think that's a very dangerous thing to
think about when it comes to sex and
porn addiction is, I don't know if we
can get recovered when it comes to
a sexual process addiction. I think there's just
(19:45):
too many biological factors,
you know, realistic human needs and desires that
are kinda baked into us and,
not to mention the our our a very
sexual society that's kind of constantly
pulling you out of recovery.
So the reason I don't use the term
recovery often is it does, you know, it
it especially around like the betrayed partners, there's
(20:07):
this idea of, oh, hey, I'll ship him
off to a sixty day inpatient stint and
he'll come out sober.
That might work for, heroin addiction. That just
doesn't quite work for, sex and porn addiction.
So I think, you know, I call it
self mastery and, you know, my you and
I kind of operate around the same ideology
when we're kind of attacking this this particular
(20:30):
issue. You know, for me, you were I
believe at least, every single person is called
with a unique skill set designed to solve
a problem for a specific portion of the
population.
And,
I think there's multiple,
problems that you're called to solve. I think
if you were in Africa, you would solve
that problem. And if you were in Thailand,
(20:50):
you'd solve that problem. And if you're in
The United States, you're solving a different problem.
So I think someone like you would use
your unique abilities to solve a problem, a
different problem wherever you go, wherever you were
born.
But nonetheless, I feel as if
when people are not using their unique abilities
to solve that problem for that portion of
the population, I feel as if there's an
(21:11):
emptiness inside of us,
that's just begging to come out. Even if
you like your job in real estate or
whatever it is that you do,
you know, there's a difference between liking the
job that your country has established for you
versus actually using your unique abilities to do
what you were called to do. But I
I I genuinely believe
all problems, all dissatisfaction,
(21:33):
all compulsive issues, all stem from
us being off track, you know, and I
think you and I see that eye to
eye. So where I wanna go with this
with the remainder of this conversation is,
how you know, that that it sounds on
paper, Daniel. It sounds perfect. Right? Sounds, oh,
yeah. I have a calling, and I need
to do my calling.
(21:55):
That is, you know, I I run into
issues of guys who are like, well, I
don't know what my unique abilities are. I
don't know what my purpose is. I don't
know what that population is that I need
to serve.
I don't even know who I am. Right?
So here they are in this very confused
place, rightfully so, because we don't really help
kids figure out who they are, unfortunately.
But where do they start, Daniel? Because I
(22:15):
mean, that's I I think I hear that
all the time is it's, you know, they
want to be on track. They wanna be
themselves. But I think that's a very
I think us saying it in this concise
manner is a disservice because it's it's not
small. It's very big.
No. It's not. And, you know, I I'll
say that the the clarity that came to
me about who I am today
(22:36):
came from a lot of skinned knees and
a lot of,
skin knuckles too. I mean, it it was
a it was really a process to get
here because I didn't end up where I
sit today. This is third or fourth career
for me, and it's through those skin knuckles
that I had to figure out that wasn't
working. You know, that wasn't filling that you
know, my attempt to fill my ego in
that way was not not where I had
(22:56):
to go. And I will say that I
feel very grateful and,
feel somewhat lucky that I've been able to
clarify what my passion is. I've got a
skill set that does seem to to allow
me to make a good living at it
and to work with those others in a
way that, is satisfying to me. I think
that the thing that that that that I,
you know, I nudge people to in my
(23:18):
practice when they ask this question is we
have to get to that root level of
who they are as far as their identity
goes. We've got to look at the empty
buckets that came from,
the childhood,
their developmental stage, and what buckets are they
trying to fill
in maladaptive
ways? I mean,
I'm I'm a believer in it's it's
(23:39):
IFS is the technical term if there's people
out there listening, but it's parts work. You
know? I've been married over forty years to
my wife, and I say this to people.
I say, there's a part of me that
dearly loves my wife. Do you believe that?
Yes. I do.
And then there's and then I say, and
there's a part of me that thinks she's
a complete pain in the ass at times.
You know? Do you believe that? So then
(24:01):
and that's that's true, by the way. And
and so what part of me is really
Daniel? And the truth is it's both. Right?
There are parts of me in both of
these. And it's not that we have to
get rid of all of the so called
bad parts. You know? I've got this ability
to really hyperfocus on stuff. It's great for
business. I see what's gonna come,
and I can figure out if that's where
(24:23):
we need to end up in six months
or in $6,000.
Here are the steps we need to put
in place before we get there. This is
really useful in business.
At the house, they call me controlling for
this. Right? Because I know what that behavior
is gonna lead to in four moves. And
when I offer that to my children or
offer that to my wife,
they typically will roll their eyes. So what
(24:44):
I'm saying is that part of me that
has that very skillful ability in business
doesn't serve me well in my relationships, and
so that it's not that I have to
get rid of that part of me. I
have to pull it back. I have to
find that place where it's actually useful and
moderate that in the right place. And so
it's not that I have to give up
all sense of control. I just have to
(25:05):
work on finding out why did that control
serve me so well in these dire situations
when I was growing up. What do I
need to do to let that part of
me rest a little bit to where I
don't have to use it so much? So
if we can help people, if you and
I can work with people to find out
what's overdeveloped,
what's not working in their life, that's the
better question to ask is what's not working.
(25:27):
And then when we can find out why
they're still doing it, then we can help
them figure out what it is they need
to
cut back on, put moderate on,
not maybe put quite so much focus in.
And I'm still a great vacation planners
planner, but I don't, you know, I don't
make the kids stay to a ten minute
schedule when we're out on the trip.
(25:48):
Yeah. Yeah. It's a you know, I I
I say it this way all the time.
I use I have tons of parts, but
I I use 12 of them regularly.
Eight of them cheat on my wife. Yeah.
So,
and some of those eight, I use to
keynote speak,
to,
brainstorm,
(26:09):
you know, when I'm birthing a a new
concept,
to network and expand my,
the the number of people I know so
that I can grow our efforts and, you
know, and spread the word around the different
things that I'm doing.
And if I don't turn those off,
when he's done networking,
and I continue to be him,
(26:30):
he might
he might
pick up
a chick. He might run to a massage
parlor. He might like you know, that guy
cares about himself and himself only. He wants
to feel good. He wants to avoid pain
at all costs. And he kicks ass at
business for that same exact reason. He he's
so great in business because he's
he's self centered on the plan. And in
(26:50):
the case of,
business, that's great when that's great.
And then, of course, I I turn I
I become my charmer. I become my,
I can't be bothered. I have you know,
I have all these different gears that I
shift into for strategically
advantage,
advantaged,
times.
The problem is, like I said, eight of
them
(27:10):
eight of them were invented before I was
married, so they never cared about my wife.
They don't even know what marriage is. They
they would actually probably rather I didn't get
married because they see it as an inconvenience.
So, you know, I know for a lot
of people who haven't done parts work, they
might be hearing this and thinking, these guys
are nuts. These are schizophrenic people.
But this is truly how it works. I
mean, you cannot come into a room, none
(27:32):
of us are born knowing how to act
in that room. You know, Freud called it
the id. Right? It's the thing inside of
you, the ego, the id. It's the thing
inside of you that says,
hey, I should probably wait till the prayer
is over before I go to the bathroom
as as Freud described it. Right? So we
have this part in us that learns,
I can pee right now. There's no reason
why I can't go pee. However, culturally, if
(27:54):
I was to get up right now in
the middle of a prayer,
this might this is socially would put me
they would consider that I am an unaware
individual, so I'm not gonna pee yet. I'm
gonna pee later, so I don't be labeled
an unaware individual. Now all of this might
hear that and think, well, no duh. But,
again, that is a learned thing that you
start to learn to get, oh, this is
an inappropriate time to talk. So I'm I'm
(28:15):
explaining all of this to say,
you know, to me,
the the name of the game is self
mastery. It's knowing when to turn something on
and when to turn something off because there
are parts of you that do not value,
marriage and monogamy. There are parts of you
that see nothing wrong with viewing pornography because
when you were 12, all your friends were
looking at it. And so when you invented
(28:37):
that part of you, it's like, hey, I
like to look at women and, so does
everybody else. So what's the big deal? Right?
And again, we have these conflicting belief systems.
And for those of you who are still
struggling to believe, Daniel and I, that we're
right, that this is that in fact what
does go on in your brain, this is
why you relapse or slip.
Because one day, you're just you're sitting there
and you're feeling whatever you're feeling, you shift
(28:59):
into that part of you and that part
of you doesn't have an issue with, he's
really good. Again, he's good at business, but
he also doesn't have an issue with objectifying
women.
And so then you objectify women in that
moment because to
that guy's strategy, this isn't really that big
of a deal. Right? And that's where,
again, mindfulness and all these other things are
becoming more popular when it comes to sobriety
(29:20):
because, you know, the name of the game
is self mastery. You know? What how can
you act like you? And then when you're
not acting like you and you're gonna act
like something else,
how can we make sure that that is
actually the most appropriate person to act like
and that he's not gonna do anything that's
gonna violate your value system? Because I think,
you know, a lot of us just being
on autopilot and cruise control,
we're not really thinking about a lot of
(29:42):
this stuff, and it's not until it's too
late that we actually start to address it.
Yeah. And I think you're right. I mean,
one of the things that I think is
hard in new recovery is knowing what to
do different. You know? And, there's the George
Costanza method where you just do opposite of
what your brain's telling you to, and there
may be some truth to that at times.
If my brain is first thought is to
do that, then maybe I need to consider
(30:03):
doing something different because doing that is what
got me into the problem to begin with.
And I think over time,
as we look at and and put ourself
around healthier people,
a healthier therapist, a sponsor, a group of
people, I think that we do get the
influence and begin to make better decisions on
what the behavior needs
(30:24):
to look like. And I I I will
tell you that I think it's it's really
important for somebody that's new in recovery that's
trying to walk this way.
One of the secrets is it doesn't matter
how you feel. You must do what you
need to do to stay healthy. And the
the the feelings will follow.
But we have to take a path and
walk a path that,
is in line with where we're trying to
(30:45):
go to. If we get too far off
the path, it's hard to come back. And
so to to your point that not knowing
exactly where we are, You know, the I
appreciate your point you're making about the terminology
around mastery versus re recovery.
You know, one thing about the word recover
is we are covering ground that didn't get
covered the first time. And, you know, that's
(31:05):
a part of what we're doing as we
make these choices. And, again,
it takes a lot of effort to live
a conscious life because we have to put
effort and thought into even the,
the unconscious choices that that that,
nudge us to make this choice or that
choice. We have to break that down and
do a lot of work. And and a
lot of times, I've gotta have help going
(31:26):
into my brain to figure out what what's
going on there because my brain if you
think I've got bad problems, you ought to
see what some of my solutions are sometimes.
It's it's it's crazy about what my brain
comes up with about what we're gonna do.
But over time, it gets easier, and,
being around healthier people helps me make healthier
choices. Mhmm. It's a you know, I think
(31:47):
the thing that comes up is, you know,
and I'm I'm actually not a religious individual,
but I have studied all the religions. And
the thing that comes out to me when
you share that was, you know, the tree
of knowledge, man. You eat you eat all
those apples, you know, the concept of original
sin, you know, that's what really what they're
talking about is, man, by the time you're
18 years old, you have eaten a lot
of apples and, a lot of us didn't
(32:08):
even know we were eating them. The next
thing you know, you know all this stuff
that,
may not be true. I think that's I
think that's the that that's what, you know,
when you said recovering,
you know, really going back and then saying,
hey,
who fed me all those apples and what
and was that person psychologically sound? You know,
how happy were they? You know, you know,
(32:29):
it's I was raised by a sex addict,
and a lot of guys,
have that same issue whether the guy whether
whether he was diagnosed and went to get
treated or he just
objectified women,
compulsively
and, never tried to stop. A lot of
us are byproducts of an environment that told
us that this is this is what women
are, this is what we do with them,
(32:50):
and this is what guys do with with
them. You know, every single one of those,
you know, success included. You know, the obsession
with money and what money is gonna do
for you. And all of these, you know,
school, parents, mentors,
all these apples we're eating. And then here
you are, 21 years old,
and you're just trying to get a bunch
of money and,
get people to like you. And
it's really sad that that's the objective because,
(33:13):
you know, long ago when you asked the
three year old version of you what he
wanted, he just wanted to to feel great
emotions. That's all he he just wanted I
just wanna feel whole. I wanna feel peace.
I wanna feel connected.
And,
fast forward, you know, eighteen years from that
three year old kid,
you know, you're not even living, you know,
to me, I don't I rarely see people
(33:33):
playing the game of life for peace, wholeness,
and legacy.
You don't see that. And the people that
I do see doing that, no surprise, are
living
pretty amazing lives and they're not cheating on
their wife.
You know, so to me, you know, I
think I think sometimes in this field, we
zoom in too much on the sexual behaviors,
the porn, the objectification,
(33:55):
and those things are differently problematic. I'm not
saying they're not. But I think if we
really zoom out,
it's really not an issue of
being addicted to boobs and vaginas and sexual
behaviors. That's really just not I don't think
that's really the issue here. I think the
issue is
we've all gotten really, really confused around what's
important, what's valuable, and,
(34:16):
sex has gotten intertwined into all of that.
And we're under this delusion that it's going
to bring us some sort of value. But
again, back to your original point, you know,
when you come out of that hotel room
with that affair partner,
I don't know how fulfilled do you really
feel, and I think that's pretty telling. Right?
So as we kind of wrap this up,
I'd love for you to you know, what
(34:38):
would you as your work with this,
if you had if you were gonna speak
to a high achieving guy who was going
to master his parts,
how do how do we begin doing that?
I mean, obviously, finding a great therapist who's
familiar with, maternal family systems.
How else would you recommend a guy begin
the self mastery journey?
(34:59):
Well, I mean, one is I'd offer that
there needs to be a lot of patience
and some self compassion.
You mentioned meditation early on, and I think
that the there's there's some really good work
that can be done internally
with self,
compassion.
Germer and Neff did a bunch of work.
Kristen Neff's out of, I think, UT. And
(35:19):
she has got you can Google her and
find some self compassion
meditations. That is a fine place to start
because if we can get if we can
move towards
seeing ourself in third person and and maybe
seeing ourself with a little bit more value,
it'll give us the opportunity
to see ourselves a little bit differently and
begin to look at some of the different
(35:40):
parts. Again, I'm not judgmental. I don't,
I'm I'm not hypercritical
about what people have done and so forth.
I look at the sex
acting out, the problematic sexual behaviors,
the alcohol, the shopping.
Those are the solutions. Those aren't the problems.
And so if we're gonna get to the
root of this, we've got to go back
to the individual.
And what is it that they're trying to
(36:01):
satiate? What is it that they're trying to
fix, so to speak? And we work at
that root level. The self compassion begins by
acknowledging that we're okay. We're really okay. And
that we,
we've got some stuff we need to work
on and probably change.
But to go at it to where we
we don't have to denigrate ourself on it,
and we don't have to be really harsh
(36:21):
because most of us have a harsh voice
in our history,
and we don't need to exacerbate that. So
that's step one. Step two is I would
find a good,
a good teacher, whether that's a therapist, a
sponsor, a group,
a workshop. I think that I would be
a good book. I mean, that's a good
place to start too is I would start
there and be listening for resources. There's an
(36:43):
expression when the when the student's ready, the
teacher appears. I truly believe that. And so
when the willingness comes up, the universe listens
to that, and
opportunities
will step in front of people to try
to do that. So long as we're sincere
and making an honest attempt,
with some level of open mindedness and willingness
to step into
a different way to overcome some of these
(37:05):
these challenges,
then I think that there's gonna be plenty
of opportunity to step in with other people
to help get some guidance
on where we're growing and where we need
to get to. Yeah. I agree I agree
with that group suggestion. You know, I think
one of the it's very it is very
difficult
to master self without references because a lot
of us are are in this position because
(37:25):
we were really unaware we were really unaware
of what was what we were doing. We
were listening to our own brain. Exact yeah.
Exactly. Right. And and when your world's confound
you know, confined to that,
it can be very difficult to spot why
it's happening. Is it normal? Is it not
normal? You know, we're we're lacking these references,
and I think that's where especially within the
(37:46):
sex and porn addiction field, when you can
find a good group of guys that are
like minded and you can be with them
and, you know, you see yourself in them,
and then they start telling you about their
patterns,
that's when you can start to say, I
do that, and I do that too, and
I also do that. That's that's why my
groups are exclusively for high achievers, entrepreneurs, professionals
(38:08):
is,
guys like that tend to think the same.
And so it's we can make faster progress
in a group of guys with a similar,
mindset. Right? And but it is, you know,
you don't.
If we knew that it was abnormal and
we knew how to stop it, we would
have stopped it. And I think it's gaining
all of these various references. And I think
too within this field, one cool thing that
you see is,
(38:29):
everybody's acting out for a different reason.
And it's,
I think it kinda reduces the shame around
it because I think we're all kind of
embarrassed to admit how we're acting out and
why we're acting out,
but that repetition
of going to
seeing your, you know, dear friends
kind of share these parts of them. To
me, that's where all my that's where all
(38:49):
of my self mastery came from. You you
you can read the books and they definitely
help,
but when and the absence of context, it
can sometimes be hard to apply, you know,
I I I say this about the the
Bible. You know, the King James, you know,
it's in the absence of context,
the book can kinda hear it can kinda
read like, it can kinda it can be
very difficult to understand. But when you start
(39:11):
adding context to each of the,
scriptures,
it starts to make a lot more sense.
You know, to me, the bible, you know,
as somebody I I again, I don't have
a particular religious affiliation. I'm not sure I
ever will. But when I read that book,
I think, man, this has gotta be one
of the best self improvement books out out
there. I mean, it's it's it's pretty solid.
They covered a lot of bases in there.
(39:32):
So, any last any parting thoughts before we
wrap up, and when you're done, if you
can tell men how to get a hold
of you, if they're gonna come to maybe
one of your intensives or events, when are
they? How do they find those? Yeah. You
know, the last thing I'd say is is
that it's a worthwhile pursuit, you know, that
that if somebody's really suffering, there is a
way through this, and and you don't have
to do it alone. That's the other thing
(39:53):
that I think most addictions
lead to is a solitude
and a loneliness.
You know, this is the disease
of the disease of addiction, the disease
of loneliness. It's a disease of relationship, and
the antidote truly is better relationships and connection
with others. And so there is a solution,
and and and it's available to folks. If
(40:14):
we show just a modicum of of,
of open mindedness and willingness, then, again, I
think I think resources will appear. Mhmm. And
so I just wanna thank you for the
opportunity to come on here and share some
ideas with you. And,
I think it's through stuff like this that
find the other people find out that there
are resources through your groups, through the stuff
that you do. I do a family of
(40:35):
origin workshop. It's three days long. I do
it about once a month.
It's probably the most important work that I
do because we get to that gut level
change of how that hardwiring
changes,
that change of the the hardwiring that came
to us in the first five, ten years
of life, and it it gives us a
a pathway of what to do different moving
forward. I'm at d two counseling. We're in
(40:57):
Dallas, Texas. I've, folks from all over The
US and Canada come in for this workshop,
and,
it's really powerful. It's it's ease I say
it's easily worth a year's worth of talk
therapy in that three days to do that.
Yeah. I don't know that. But you can
Google me.
Go to d2counseling.com,
and there's
information about me, about our practice, and so
forth. And I just wanna thank you for
(41:19):
the opportunity to come on here and talk
about,
mastery and recovery, and,
I appreciate the opportunity.
Yeah. It's great. I'll, excited to see you
out here in May. Couple of months, you
and I will be able to see each
other in person. I'm I'm in Sedona, so
I'll I'll drive down to the,
to the symposium.
Yeah. You know, just a quick little quick
(41:39):
little drive for me. Question two, are you,
for people who do not live in Texas,
do you have people in the practice who
are licensed elsewhere?
Yes. And, I carry license in about three
different states, but it's always iffy, you know,
on on who's licensed
where. I don't know that we've got all
50 covered.
If somebody comes in for the workshop, they
can that that works.
(42:01):
For folks who wanna do online stuff, I'm
happy to be a resource for them to
help them track down somebody they can work
with regardless of where they're at. We'll either
have somebody here they can work with, or
I'm well connected enough across the country like
you. You and I can put our heads
together and probably get off your feet. Find
somebody.
Yeah. We'll be a resource for people if
they need to find something. Yeah. Awesome. Thanks
(42:22):
thanks, Danielle. I really appreciate your time today.
You bet. Thanks again for having me.
Thanks for listening to this episode. If you
are a high achiever of the sex addiction
and you're looking for a recovery group full
of like minded men, visit successfuladdict.com.
We provide men with a recovery mastermind group
using four day retreats,
weekly group calls, and daily accountability check ins.
(42:44):
If you wanna achieve long term sobriety and
save your marriage, go to our website and
fill out an application. If you enjoyed this
episode, please pass it along to a friend
in recovery who would benefit from listening. It
is my mission to get this information out
to as many high achievers as possible, and
I can't do it without your help.
In this episode, Daniel Goen and I talk
about
recovery
specifically as it applies to driven, successful men.
There are so many aspects that make recovery
harder for high achievers and entrepreneurs.
Lot of them cultural,
a lot of mental. We talk about all
of that in this episode.
You are listening to the sex addiction podcast
(00:21):
for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and entrepreneurs.
This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and
recovery principles specifically to the mindset of the
high achiever. I'm your host, Roland Cochran, founder
of The Successful Addict, a recovery group for
high achieving men struggling with sex and porn
addiction. For more information about joining our group
or attending our next retreat, visit successfuladdict.com.
(00:44):
And now enjoy the rest of the episode.
I'm here today with Daniel Gohen. Daniel, this
is a exciting topic you and I are
gonna dive into. I think you and I,
I really enjoyed when we first met because
we see eye to eye on this. Two
different approaches, but, to get to the same
objective. And I think we we share this,
(01:04):
and I like the direction that this conversation
is gonna go because I think it's very
applicable to the high achiever and the entrepreneur.
That all said, I I do think it's
very difficult to or impossible
to ask the high achiever to stop being
a high achiever for the sake of recovery
or anything else. And I think, you know,
the more that high achieving successful males can
(01:27):
understand,
you know, their divine design, what they've been
called to do because there is a very
real element of this,
DNA
drive with inside of them to, bring something
important to the world,
but that can be corrupted. So I think
I wanna I think you and I are
gonna kinda bob and weave in between,
why it's so challenging, especially in 2025 and
(01:49):
then The United States Of America to,
stay focused and do do what you're sent
to do. You know, I think it's very
common that we look at these men and
a lot of their behaviors as,
egregious, disgusting. We can't believe that they did
these things. You know, I think if though
if you stop and kind of zoom out
and really look at the environment that these
men are growing up in, it actually makes
(02:10):
a lot more sense than it doesn't make
sense. Now I'm not excusing the behaviors. I'm
not saying that they're not disgusting. I'm not
saying that they don't ruin families, that they
don't ruin your soul and, you know, bring
us to a a low place. I'm not
saying that. What I am saying is these
things make a lot more sense and it
makes quite a bit of sense especially for
high achieving and successful,
men. So, you know, where I'd like to
(02:31):
start this conversation is,
you know, in your opinion, as you're working
with guys like this,
where do you where do you see it,
begin to go wrong? What's what's kinda like
the first if we were to rewind all
the way back to maybe their teenage years,
what's that what's that, like, first deviation from
self that really
sticks with them and actually
(02:53):
further,
kind of, I guess, grows the chasm as
time goes on?
Yeah. One of the things we mentioned when
we were getting to know each other is
my mentor was Pia Mellody, and she was
the one that kinda developed the theory that
explains everything about human development.
And one of the things she talks about
is tied directly right back to
attachment theory of how well we are connected
(03:13):
with other people in our family when we
grow.
And where there are I mean, we're all
raised by humans, and so it's it's not
a thing of where we blame the parents,
but the reality is is that we deal
with the impact of what happened to us.
And I look at any addiction really or
any behavior, as pain management. And
so people will move into the area where
(03:34):
they get relief from the pain that they're
in or
distraction from,
something that's uncomfortable. If that's, you know, that
can be anything from over exercising
to,
drugs and alcohol to use of sex to
shopping or
or workaholism. You know? I mean, I get
tremendous relief out of, staying busy in business
(03:55):
and so forth like that. Make good money
with it, but there's also a price to
pay with relationships, with family, and so forth.
So, you know, what I look at is
when we look at somebody's history and we
get down to some of the stories of
what actually happened,
what we find is is that there has
been a natural occurrence into something that does
create this pain management, this relief.
(04:17):
And if it works, it works. And and,
you know, I don't get judgmental about what
it is that people use.
The most of the stuff is centered in
the lower brain. And and depending on what
the circumstance is, depending on what other circumstances
have happened, that's that predicates or will actually
predict what is
(04:37):
the comp compensatory
or the,
the pain management's gonna look like. And so
I'm never surprised by by what people use.
And and by the way,
one of my big experiences is as people
get a handle on one of them, like
whack a mole, it's gonna come out sideways.
One of the biggest we've seen one of
the biggest
(04:57):
influx of clients coming in around sex addiction
treatment, for example, have been recovering addicts who
have been overt from alcohol for a long
time, but they've got down final frontier and
they're willing to finally even look at that.
Mhmm. Yeah. It's a, you know, and I
wanna clarify for everybody listening because a common
a common misconception amongst high achieving men is
(05:18):
that you don't have negative emotions,
that there's that your life's amazing and there's
nothing you're escaping from. And I get that,
you know, why? Because I thought that too.
So when I got first got into the
sex addiction space, you know, I'm I'm working
through the the Facing the Shadows workbook as
we probably all do. And,
I'm reading a lot of it and I'm
just not resonating. I'm like, nah, I'm not
coping. I I don't consider myself a bad
(05:40):
person.
You know, it's and I'm reading it and
I'm just like, no. No. No. No. That
they got the wrong guy here. Here's what
I here's what I've learned though, and it's
exactly what you just said.
If you look at my behaviors, primarily, they
were around getting attention, validation. I wanted I
wanted to be wanted. I wanted women to
want to be with me sexually. I wanted
men to wish they could be me. Right?
That's my primary addiction. So it's all about
(06:01):
proving that I am the best, superior, impressive,
admirable, whatever it is. So think about it
though.
It's easy to say, oh, no. No. No.
I'm on a quest for for admiration and
respect. You know, there's nothing wrong with that.
Right? So that is easy to say. However,
why would you be on that quest? Right?
And that was where I started to realize,
okay. Yes. Maybe I'm not escaping
(06:23):
the traditional negative pains of hating my job
or hating my life or being unsatisfied with
my career because men in my position,
aren't those things.
However, why would I have to compulsively because
it was compulsive. There's no doubt about that.
I'm violating my value system. Why would I
compulsively
engage in these variety of practices? And to
(06:43):
your point, Daniel, it's not just sex.
If you look at if you look at
it, I wanted people to want me, wanna
be me, admire me, worship me, in all
areas. I wanted them to want my body.
I wanted them to want my money. I
wanted them to want my car. Right? So
if you if you if you reel it
all back, it's really still the same thing.
I must you know, and this is the
(07:04):
only psychological explanation. I must not feel
admirable,
respected as as I am without doing these
additional things
to get
the validation that, oh, okay.
That person looked at me, so I must
have a good body. That person gave me
a thumbs up to my car, so I
must, you know, I must be this, superior
(07:25):
accomplished male in my in my area.
So I just wanted to highlight that as
for everybody listening. You know, we're talking about
pain avoidance.
You know, the pain to me was, do
I matter? Am I impressive? Am I admirable?
Does anyone care? Am I accomplished? Right? So
it's me with this self doubt
going on these ventures to make sure that
(07:45):
I can prove to myself and everybody around
me that I am in fact these pieces.
That's pain though because
in the absence of the attention, in the
absence of the women staring at me, the
men admiring my car, if none of those
things were going on, would I be okay?
And Daniel, the answer, back then, you know,
pre recovery was no.
I was not okay. I needed I did.
(08:05):
I truly needed those things. If you told
me, hey, Roland, you can't you can't buy
nice cars anymore. You can't, all of your
you know, you get a monthly allowance and
you can't have anything over your your bare
minimum needs,
that would have been very unpleasant news and
I would not have wanted to hear that.
I I very much was dependent on
getting this external validation and respect and respect
(08:26):
and admiration
from people in my community. So I just
wanna be very clear. Just because you might
not think you're coping in the traditional sense
doesn't mean that you're not coping. Coping is
a coping means that you're doing a you're
doing practices
to try to fill a void. Right? And
that void can be as simple as a
lack of respect, admiration, and importance. Right? But
(08:47):
the other thing I wanna make sure you
wanna talk about is, Daniel, how much of
that though is
biological? Right? How much of my quest for
those things from my community
is part of my DNA and kind of
my calling? Right? You know, I often
I I again, I do wanna bring this
topic up with you because I think you
and I share this.
You know, there there is a lot of
(09:08):
me that wants to make an impact.
And so how do I find this balance?
Is it simply just not doing behaviors that
violate my morals and values? You know, kinda
help the couples who are dealing with this
problem. Because there is. There's this you know,
my wife, you know, one of her big
things was, are you keynote speaking just so
you can get your dopamine hit? And, I
had a hard time answering that, Daniel, because
(09:29):
I couldn't tell.
Yeah. Well and I think there's an overlap
that I'm not sure we ever fully get
to the answer to that.
The,
you know, what I would say is what
brings people to recovery generally is the the
bad results, the the discovery, the,
the DWI, whatever it is around their particular
coping mechanisms. And I think one of the
(09:49):
great questions we get to ask self,
that I'm asking clients when they come in
is, does your behavior align with your value
system? And a lot of people don't have
a value system when they first are asked
that that question. So we go through we
can go through that process
on a values clarification
exercise,
and then we have to get gut level
honest is where am I living my life
(10:10):
outside of those values. And that's a good
indicator to allow people to see
where they're at,
and and what it is they need to
do different. Because I think there's a clarity
that comes and a satisfaction that comes that
comes in life when we align our,
we align our behavior with our value system.
(10:31):
And that's that's where the integrity shows up.
And if I live my life in integrity,
there's a deeper level of satisfaction. And to
me, that's the spiritual connection that goes along
with it. And I don't have a need
to argue about whether that's,
Old Testament God, New Testament God, Buddha, Confucius,
whatever.
If we are living our lives in integrity,
(10:52):
we're gonna have a simpler way. And there's
a there's a satisfaction that comes. One of
the first things that'll pull people out of
their own ego that demands that I be
the focus of attention
is if we can learn to work with
somebody else. And that's a prep that's a
that's a,
that's that's one of the foundational
ideas within 12 step. It's one of the
foundational ideas of most religions is to get
(11:14):
out of self to to minimize the the
I, to minimize the ego, and to make
you bigger to where I can be of
service. Now if we do it just to
get the accolades to your point, it's not
it's gonna be hollow. Mhmm. But that's one
of the things I think that we can
look at is how lasting
is the dopamine hit. Is it a is
it a is it is it a momentary
(11:35):
thing that we get hollow
about five minutes later, or does it provide
a sense of satisfaction longer term? I know
that,
I can win the contest, and that's great
for a day.
When I've built a a healthy practice where
I get to help other people, there's a
deeper level of satisfaction that resonates with me.
And I'm not gonna say that my ego's
(11:56):
outside of either one of those because I
because I think there's a part of it,
that shows up. If if if we're an
entrepreneur, there's some level of narcissism in us,
or at least narcissism traits at some times.
And, so I acknowledge that
the the the
recovery is a process, and so it's one
of those things I continue to look at.
Listen. We don't know what we don't know.
(12:18):
And so I think one of the gifts
of recovery is we continue
in our growth to be curious about what
it is we don't know about ourselves and
remain humble enough to be curious about where
we're being asked to grow. If we can
step into that, look at ego, step out
of that, work with others,
then I think we do stand a better
(12:40):
chance of aligning our,
will with our creators, aligning our behaviors with
our integrity, and I think there's a deeper
satisfaction,
that that that walks with us in that.
Yeah. I agree. I I I call it
self mastery. I I like to call it
that instead of recovery because I mean, it's
really, you know, to me, the the sexually
compulsive behaviors happen in an unintentionally created environment
(13:02):
that allows them to happen. And but I
think that's worth discussing too because, Daniel, I
think, you know, for me,
this really I felt kinda like a victim
of
these behaviors. I I never really remember
wanting any of these in my life. They
they kind of came into my life, and
I don't remember,
(13:22):
and I was ashamed of them from the
beginning. I mean, they were never something that
I wanted. And I I I think that
it's worth you and I speaking to this
a little bit, you know.
Think about it. If you're a high achiever,
part of the definition is that you are
achieving things that are difficult to achieve. That's
that's that's part of the definition. It's why
a lot of high achievers chased just difficult
things to accomplish because society has just said
(13:45):
that's hard to get and then we go,
oh, we feel this kind of internal drive
to go do the thing that society has
labeled difficult. So here's the challenge though, and
this is where things started getting sloppy for
me and my addiction was
society said that sleeping with women of that
caliber was difficult.
So I took the challenge of, well, we'll
(14:05):
see how difficult it actually is. Right? And,
unfortunately, I was married. And so that kind
of introduced
this conquesting. In the beginning, I was able
to kind of keep it on lock and
not cross the flesh line and, you know,
my in my delusion, my my flirting was
not cheating which, you know, in my recovery
is absolutely cheating. But back then, you know,
that was not how I saw it. But
(14:26):
it got worse and worse and worse. But
my point the reason I'm bringing this up,
Daniel, is
there is this very real aspect of,
people who are called to serve and,
you know, be all things to all people.
There is this there is this aspect of
the ego where you're constantly surveying your environment
(14:47):
to figure out what is peep what are
people suffering from? What is hard to achieve?
What is hard for everybody else to achieve
that if I could make it easier for
them to achieve, I would improve their life.
So my point is, you know, there's this
there's this influence of the culture and the
society that we live around us, around their
perceived struggles. And I think that's where
(15:10):
sex addiction, I think, sneaks up on a
lot of these guys is it's we want
we want so much to impress these people,
to help others, to be to to live
an impressive life. And
unfortunately, I I think if you look at
our society, you know, if you came down
and you were an alien life form and
you never had been on earth and you
got dropped off in Los Angeles,
(15:31):
you would notice two things very quickly that
the bulk of people value money
and sex and sex appeal. I mean, it
will become very obvious that that is the
two things that our culture revolves around. So
my my question for you is,
you know, what do we do about that?
Because, I mean, in a way, isn't this
kind of like resting on the minds of
(15:52):
successful men? This this this constant kind of,
need for more money and more
sex and sex appeal. I mean, I you
know, maybe I'm projecting my,
you know, my world on everybody else's world,
but I don't know. It seems like when
I go to all the conferences that I
go to, seems like that's,
in successful male culture. Part of that is
(16:13):
how much money can we get and how
many women can we get, and then we're
just supposed to turn that off when we
get married.
Well, I do I would say that we
are self selective about who we choose to
hang around with, so maybe there's a challenge
for all of us in that. But what
I'd say is I think you're talking about
the difference between leading an unconscious and a
conscious life, and it's it's far harder to
(16:33):
live a conscious life. You know, we've got
the back to the I don't know what
I don't know.
We've got to make some choices about what's
we're going to claim as a value and
then
work out trying to figure out what detracts
from that and what holds us back from
doing that. If our bucket is empty around
the idea of esteem, because that's what we've
been talking about, is the is the core
(16:53):
issue of our esteem or our self value.
Yes. If that's the empty bucket, then we're
gonna have to fill that. The biologically,
the the window closes at about age six
or seven to to have that need. I
mean, the three
the three roles of a parent are to
affirm the child, nurture the child, and set
appropriate limits for the child. And a deficiency
(17:14):
in any of those areas is gonna lead
to problems around,
self esteem and value.
And so if we're left holding that,
if we're left holding that empty bucket,
the we can either chase it outside of
ourself, and that's where the pretty women or
the nice car or the the great shotgun
comes in.
But there's always somebody that's got a better
shotgun. There's always somebody that's got a prettier
(17:35):
wife or a prettier spouse or,
a nicer car, and and that bounces us
over back to feeling one down. And so
in this model of growth, if we can
reparent ourself, if we can turn that focus,
not in a selfish way or
a narcissistic way, but if we can look
(17:56):
at truly what's going on with us and
begin to reparent ourself, to value ourself for
who we are,
to do some self esteem exercises, to do
some self esteem work in group,
in some intensive therapies.
You know, there's some great places around the
country on-site, PCS.
There's some great places where we can actually
get some deep level of trauma work done.
(18:19):
I do a family of origin workshop, and
it's phenomenal to see people come through that
and see that empty bucket start to fill
back up to where they realize they don't
have to chase it outside of themselves as
an other esteem. They can begin to value
self in a self esteeming way, and it
pulls the need off to go focus on
that other stuff, to to go buy the
next rifle or shotgun. I'm I'm a hunter,
(18:41):
so I think of all these quality shotguns
I've seen. But,
or cars or,
pretty pretty people to hang around with. And
so with that,
you know, one of the mantras that I
offer clients is our strengths don't make us
better than,
our weaknesses don't make us less than. They
simply are our differences, and we're allowed to
(19:02):
be human even with our differences.
And so when we acknowledge that, then we
can hang out in that middle place where
we don't have to be one up or
one down, and we can begin to clearly
work on that self esteem bucket. Mhmm. Mhmm.
It's a and I think this is a
great time to pivot the conversation towards
really what you and I focus on. I
mean, you know, to me recovery,
(19:23):
I again, you know, I don't use that
word only because
it comes with this,
stigma in our society of becoming recovered and
and getting this out of your life, and
I think that's a very dangerous thing to
think about when it comes to sex and
porn addiction is, I don't know if we
can get recovered when it comes to
a sexual process addiction. I think there's just
(19:45):
too many biological factors,
you know, realistic human needs and desires that
are kinda baked into us and,
not to mention the our our a very
sexual society that's kind of constantly
pulling you out of recovery.
So the reason I don't use the term
recovery often is it does, you know, it
it especially around like the betrayed partners, there's
(20:07):
this idea of, oh, hey, I'll ship him
off to a sixty day inpatient stint and
he'll come out sober.
That might work for, heroin addiction. That just
doesn't quite work for, sex and porn addiction.
So I think, you know, I call it
self mastery and, you know, my you and
I kind of operate around the same ideology
when we're kind of attacking this this particular
(20:30):
issue. You know, for me, you were I
believe at least, every single person is called
with a unique skill set designed to solve
a problem for a specific portion of the
population.
And,
I think there's multiple,
problems that you're called to solve. I think
if you were in Africa, you would solve
that problem. And if you were in Thailand,
(20:50):
you'd solve that problem. And if you're in
The United States, you're solving a different problem.
So I think someone like you would use
your unique abilities to solve a problem, a
different problem wherever you go, wherever you were
born.
But nonetheless, I feel as if
when people are not using their unique abilities
to solve that problem for that portion of
the population, I feel as if there's an
(21:11):
emptiness inside of us,
that's just begging to come out. Even if
you like your job in real estate or
whatever it is that you do,
you know, there's a difference between liking the
job that your country has established for you
versus actually using your unique abilities to do
what you were called to do. But I
I I genuinely believe
all problems, all dissatisfaction,
(21:33):
all compulsive issues, all stem from
us being off track, you know, and I
think you and I see that eye to
eye. So where I wanna go with this
with the remainder of this conversation is,
how you know, that that it sounds on
paper, Daniel. It sounds perfect. Right? Sounds, oh,
yeah. I have a calling, and I need
to do my calling.
(21:55):
That is, you know, I I run into
issues of guys who are like, well, I
don't know what my unique abilities are. I
don't know what my purpose is. I don't
know what that population is that I need
to serve.
I don't even know who I am. Right?
So here they are in this very confused
place, rightfully so, because we don't really help
kids figure out who they are, unfortunately.
But where do they start, Daniel? Because I
(22:15):
mean, that's I I think I hear that
all the time is it's, you know, they
want to be on track. They wanna be
themselves. But I think that's a very
I think us saying it in this concise
manner is a disservice because it's it's not
small. It's very big.
No. It's not. And, you know, I I'll
say that the the clarity that came to
me about who I am today
(22:36):
came from a lot of skinned knees and
a lot of,
skin knuckles too. I mean, it it was
a it was really a process to get
here because I didn't end up where I
sit today. This is third or fourth career
for me, and it's through those skin knuckles
that I had to figure out that wasn't
working. You know, that wasn't filling that you
know, my attempt to fill my ego in
that way was not not where I had
(22:56):
to go. And I will say that I
feel very grateful and,
feel somewhat lucky that I've been able to
clarify what my passion is. I've got a
skill set that does seem to to allow
me to make a good living at it
and to work with those others in a
way that, is satisfying to me. I think
that the thing that that that that I,
you know, I nudge people to in my
(23:18):
practice when they ask this question is we
have to get to that root level of
who they are as far as their identity
goes. We've got to look at the empty
buckets that came from,
the childhood,
their developmental stage, and what buckets are they
trying to fill
in maladaptive
ways? I mean,
I'm I'm a believer in it's it's
(23:39):
IFS is the technical term if there's people
out there listening, but it's parts work. You
know? I've been married over forty years to
my wife, and I say this to people.
I say, there's a part of me that
dearly loves my wife. Do you believe that?
Yes. I do.
And then there's and then I say, and
there's a part of me that thinks she's
a complete pain in the ass at times.
You know? Do you believe that? So then
(24:01):
and that's that's true, by the way. And
and so what part of me is really
Daniel? And the truth is it's both. Right?
There are parts of me in both of
these. And it's not that we have to
get rid of all of the so called
bad parts. You know? I've got this ability
to really hyperfocus on stuff. It's great for
business. I see what's gonna come,
and I can figure out if that's where
(24:23):
we need to end up in six months
or in $6,000.
Here are the steps we need to put
in place before we get there. This is
really useful in business.
At the house, they call me controlling for
this. Right? Because I know what that behavior
is gonna lead to in four moves. And
when I offer that to my children or
offer that to my wife,
they typically will roll their eyes. So what
(24:44):
I'm saying is that part of me that
has that very skillful ability in business
doesn't serve me well in my relationships, and
so that it's not that I have to
get rid of that part of me. I
have to pull it back. I have to
find that place where it's actually useful and
moderate that in the right place. And so
it's not that I have to give up
all sense of control. I just have to
(25:05):
work on finding out why did that control
serve me so well in these dire situations
when I was growing up. What do I
need to do to let that part of
me rest a little bit to where I
don't have to use it so much? So
if we can help people, if you and
I can work with people to find out
what's overdeveloped,
what's not working in their life, that's the
better question to ask is what's not working.
(25:27):
And then when we can find out why
they're still doing it, then we can help
them figure out what it is they need
to
cut back on, put moderate on,
not maybe put quite so much focus in.
And I'm still a great vacation planners
planner, but I don't, you know, I don't
make the kids stay to a ten minute
schedule when we're out on the trip.
(25:48):
Yeah. Yeah. It's a you know, I I
I say it this way all the time.
I use I have tons of parts, but
I I use 12 of them regularly.
Eight of them cheat on my wife. Yeah.
So,
and some of those eight, I use to
keynote speak,
to,
brainstorm,
(26:09):
you know, when I'm birthing a a new
concept,
to network and expand my,
the the number of people I know so
that I can grow our efforts and, you
know, and spread the word around the different
things that I'm doing.
And if I don't turn those off,
when he's done networking,
and I continue to be him,
(26:30):
he might
he might
pick up
a chick. He might run to a massage
parlor. He might like you know, that guy
cares about himself and himself only. He wants
to feel good. He wants to avoid pain
at all costs. And he kicks ass at
business for that same exact reason. He he's
so great in business because he's
he's self centered on the plan. And in
(26:50):
the case of,
business, that's great when that's great.
And then, of course, I I turn I
I become my charmer. I become my,
I can't be bothered. I have you know,
I have all these different gears that I
shift into for strategically
advantage,
advantaged,
times.
The problem is, like I said, eight of
them
(27:10):
eight of them were invented before I was
married, so they never cared about my wife.
They don't even know what marriage is. They
they would actually probably rather I didn't get
married because they see it as an inconvenience.
So, you know, I know for a lot
of people who haven't done parts work, they
might be hearing this and thinking, these guys
are nuts. These are schizophrenic people.
But this is truly how it works. I
mean, you cannot come into a room, none
(27:32):
of us are born knowing how to act
in that room. You know, Freud called it
the id. Right? It's the thing inside of
you, the ego, the id. It's the thing
inside of you that says,
hey, I should probably wait till the prayer
is over before I go to the bathroom
as as Freud described it. Right? So we
have this part in us that learns,
I can pee right now. There's no reason
why I can't go pee. However, culturally, if
(27:54):
I was to get up right now in
the middle of a prayer,
this might this is socially would put me
they would consider that I am an unaware
individual, so I'm not gonna pee yet. I'm
gonna pee later, so I don't be labeled
an unaware individual. Now all of this might
hear that and think, well, no duh. But,
again, that is a learned thing that you
start to learn to get, oh, this is
an inappropriate time to talk. So I'm I'm
(28:15):
explaining all of this to say,
you know, to me,
the the name of the game is self
mastery. It's knowing when to turn something on
and when to turn something off because there
are parts of you that do not value,
marriage and monogamy. There are parts of you
that see nothing wrong with viewing pornography because
when you were 12, all your friends were
looking at it. And so when you invented
(28:37):
that part of you, it's like, hey, I
like to look at women and, so does
everybody else. So what's the big deal? Right?
And again, we have these conflicting belief systems.
And for those of you who are still
struggling to believe, Daniel and I, that we're
right, that this is that in fact what
does go on in your brain, this is
why you relapse or slip.
Because one day, you're just you're sitting there
and you're feeling whatever you're feeling, you shift
(28:59):
into that part of you and that part
of you doesn't have an issue with, he's
really good. Again, he's good at business, but
he also doesn't have an issue with objectifying
women.
And so then you objectify women in that
moment because to
that guy's strategy, this isn't really that big
of a deal. Right? And that's where,
again, mindfulness and all these other things are
becoming more popular when it comes to sobriety
(29:20):
because, you know, the name of the game
is self mastery. You know? What how can
you act like you? And then when you're
not acting like you and you're gonna act
like something else,
how can we make sure that that is
actually the most appropriate person to act like
and that he's not gonna do anything that's
gonna violate your value system? Because I think,
you know, a lot of us just being
on autopilot and cruise control,
we're not really thinking about a lot of
(29:42):
this stuff, and it's not until it's too
late that we actually start to address it.
Yeah. And I think you're right. I mean,
one of the things that I think is
hard in new recovery is knowing what to
do different. You know? And, there's the George
Costanza method where you just do opposite of
what your brain's telling you to, and there
may be some truth to that at times.
If my brain is first thought is to
do that, then maybe I need to consider
(30:03):
doing something different because doing that is what
got me into the problem to begin with.
And I think over time,
as we look at and and put ourself
around healthier people,
a healthier therapist, a sponsor, a group of
people, I think that we do get the
influence and begin to make better decisions on
what the behavior needs
(30:24):
to look like. And I I I will
tell you that I think it's it's really
important for somebody that's new in recovery that's
trying to walk this way.
One of the secrets is it doesn't matter
how you feel. You must do what you
need to do to stay healthy. And the
the the feelings will follow.
But we have to take a path and
walk a path that,
is in line with where we're trying to
(30:45):
go to. If we get too far off
the path, it's hard to come back. And
so to to your point that not knowing
exactly where we are, You know, the I
appreciate your point you're making about the terminology
around mastery versus re recovery.
You know, one thing about the word recover
is we are covering ground that didn't get
covered the first time. And, you know, that's
(31:05):
a part of what we're doing as we
make these choices. And, again,
it takes a lot of effort to live
a conscious life because we have to put
effort and thought into even the,
the unconscious choices that that that,
nudge us to make this choice or that
choice. We have to break that down and
do a lot of work. And and a
lot of times, I've gotta have help going
(31:26):
into my brain to figure out what what's
going on there because my brain if you
think I've got bad problems, you ought to
see what some of my solutions are sometimes.
It's it's it's crazy about what my brain
comes up with about what we're gonna do.
But over time, it gets easier, and,
being around healthier people helps me make healthier
choices. Mhmm. It's a you know, I think
(31:47):
the thing that comes up is, you know,
and I'm I'm actually not a religious individual,
but I have studied all the religions. And
the thing that comes out to me when
you share that was, you know, the tree
of knowledge, man. You eat you eat all
those apples, you know, the concept of original
sin, you know, that's what really what they're
talking about is, man, by the time you're
18 years old, you have eaten a lot
of apples and, a lot of us didn't
(32:08):
even know we were eating them. The next
thing you know, you know all this stuff
that,
may not be true. I think that's I
think that's the that that's what, you know,
when you said recovering,
you know, really going back and then saying,
hey,
who fed me all those apples and what
and was that person psychologically sound? You know,
how happy were they? You know, you know,
(32:29):
it's I was raised by a sex addict,
and a lot of guys,
have that same issue whether the guy whether
whether he was diagnosed and went to get
treated or he just
objectified women,
compulsively
and, never tried to stop. A lot of
us are byproducts of an environment that told
us that this is this is what women
are, this is what we do with them,
(32:50):
and this is what guys do with with
them. You know, every single one of those,
you know, success included. You know, the obsession
with money and what money is gonna do
for you. And all of these, you know,
school, parents, mentors,
all these apples we're eating. And then here
you are, 21 years old,
and you're just trying to get a bunch
of money and,
get people to like you. And
it's really sad that that's the objective because,
(33:13):
you know, long ago when you asked the
three year old version of you what he
wanted, he just wanted to to feel great
emotions. That's all he he just wanted I
just wanna feel whole. I wanna feel peace.
I wanna feel connected.
And,
fast forward, you know, eighteen years from that
three year old kid,
you know, you're not even living, you know,
to me, I don't I rarely see people
(33:33):
playing the game of life for peace, wholeness,
and legacy.
You don't see that. And the people that
I do see doing that, no surprise, are
living
pretty amazing lives and they're not cheating on
their wife.
You know, so to me, you know, I
think I think sometimes in this field, we
zoom in too much on the sexual behaviors,
the porn, the objectification,
(33:55):
and those things are differently problematic. I'm not
saying they're not. But I think if we
really zoom out,
it's really not an issue of
being addicted to boobs and vaginas and sexual
behaviors. That's really just not I don't think
that's really the issue here. I think the
issue is
we've all gotten really, really confused around what's
important, what's valuable, and,
(34:16):
sex has gotten intertwined into all of that.
And we're under this delusion that it's going
to bring us some sort of value. But
again, back to your original point, you know,
when you come out of that hotel room
with that affair partner,
I don't know how fulfilled do you really
feel, and I think that's pretty telling. Right?
So as we kind of wrap this up,
I'd love for you to you know, what
(34:38):
would you as your work with this,
if you had if you were gonna speak
to a high achieving guy who was going
to master his parts,
how do how do we begin doing that?
I mean, obviously, finding a great therapist who's
familiar with, maternal family systems.
How else would you recommend a guy begin
the self mastery journey?
(34:59):
Well, I mean, one is I'd offer that
there needs to be a lot of patience
and some self compassion.
You mentioned meditation early on, and I think
that the there's there's some really good work
that can be done internally
with self,
compassion.
Germer and Neff did a bunch of work.
Kristen Neff's out of, I think, UT. And
(35:19):
she has got you can Google her and
find some self compassion
meditations. That is a fine place to start
because if we can get if we can
move towards
seeing ourself in third person and and maybe
seeing ourself with a little bit more value,
it'll give us the opportunity
to see ourselves a little bit differently and
begin to look at some of the different
(35:40):
parts. Again, I'm not judgmental. I don't,
I'm I'm not hypercritical
about what people have done and so forth.
I look at the sex
acting out, the problematic sexual behaviors,
the alcohol, the shopping.
Those are the solutions. Those aren't the problems.
And so if we're gonna get to the
root of this, we've got to go back
to the individual.
And what is it that they're trying to
(36:01):
satiate? What is it that they're trying to
fix, so to speak? And we work at
that root level. The self compassion begins by
acknowledging that we're okay. We're really okay. And
that we,
we've got some stuff we need to work
on and probably change.
But to go at it to where we
we don't have to denigrate ourself on it,
and we don't have to be really harsh
(36:21):
because most of us have a harsh voice
in our history,
and we don't need to exacerbate that. So
that's step one. Step two is I would
find a good,
a good teacher, whether that's a therapist, a
sponsor, a group,
a workshop. I think that I would be
a good book. I mean, that's a good
place to start too is I would start
there and be listening for resources. There's an
(36:43):
expression when the when the student's ready, the
teacher appears. I truly believe that. And so
when the willingness comes up, the universe listens
to that, and
opportunities
will step in front of people to try
to do that. So long as we're sincere
and making an honest attempt,
with some level of open mindedness and willingness
to step into
a different way to overcome some of these
(37:05):
these challenges,
then I think that there's gonna be plenty
of opportunity to step in with other people
to help get some guidance
on where we're growing and where we need
to get to. Yeah. I agree I agree
with that group suggestion. You know, I think
one of the it's very it is very
difficult
to master self without references because a lot
of us are are in this position because
(37:25):
we were really unaware we were really unaware
of what was what we were doing. We
were listening to our own brain. Exact yeah.
Exactly. Right. And and when your world's confound
you know, confined to that,
it can be very difficult to spot why
it's happening. Is it normal? Is it not
normal? You know, we're we're lacking these references,
and I think that's where especially within the
(37:46):
sex and porn addiction field, when you can
find a good group of guys that are
like minded and you can be with them
and, you know, you see yourself in them,
and then they start telling you about their
patterns,
that's when you can start to say, I
do that, and I do that too, and
I also do that. That's that's why my
groups are exclusively for high achievers, entrepreneurs, professionals
(38:08):
is,
guys like that tend to think the same.
And so it's we can make faster progress
in a group of guys with a similar,
mindset. Right? And but it is, you know,
you don't.
If we knew that it was abnormal and
we knew how to stop it, we would
have stopped it. And I think it's gaining
all of these various references. And I think
too within this field, one cool thing that
you see is,
(38:29):
everybody's acting out for a different reason.
And it's,
I think it kinda reduces the shame around
it because I think we're all kind of
embarrassed to admit how we're acting out and
why we're acting out,
but that repetition
of going to
seeing your, you know, dear friends
kind of share these parts of them. To
me, that's where all my that's where all
(38:49):
of my self mastery came from. You you
you can read the books and they definitely
help,
but when and the absence of context, it
can sometimes be hard to apply, you know,
I I I say this about the the
Bible. You know, the King James, you know,
it's in the absence of context,
the book can kinda hear it can kinda
read like, it can kinda it can be
very difficult to understand. But when you start
(39:11):
adding context to each of the,
scriptures,
it starts to make a lot more sense.
You know, to me, the bible, you know,
as somebody I I again, I don't have
a particular religious affiliation. I'm not sure I
ever will. But when I read that book,
I think, man, this has gotta be one
of the best self improvement books out out
there. I mean, it's it's it's pretty solid.
They covered a lot of bases in there.
(39:32):
So, any last any parting thoughts before we
wrap up, and when you're done, if you
can tell men how to get a hold
of you, if they're gonna come to maybe
one of your intensives or events, when are
they? How do they find those? Yeah. You
know, the last thing I'd say is is
that it's a worthwhile pursuit, you know, that
that if somebody's really suffering, there is a
way through this, and and you don't have
to do it alone. That's the other thing
(39:53):
that I think most addictions
lead to is a solitude
and a loneliness.
You know, this is the disease
of the disease of addiction, the disease
of loneliness. It's a disease of relationship, and
the antidote truly is better relationships and connection
with others. And so there is a solution,
and and and it's available to folks. If
(40:14):
we show just a modicum of of,
of open mindedness and willingness, then, again, I
think I think resources will appear. Mhmm. And
so I just wanna thank you for the
opportunity to come on here and share some
ideas with you. And,
I think it's through stuff like this that
find the other people find out that there
are resources through your groups, through the stuff
that you do. I do a family of
(40:35):
origin workshop. It's three days long. I do
it about once a month.
It's probably the most important work that I
do because we get to that gut level
change of how that hardwiring
changes,
that change of the the hardwiring that came
to us in the first five, ten years
of life, and it it gives us a
a pathway of what to do different moving
forward. I'm at d two counseling. We're in
(40:57):
Dallas, Texas. I've, folks from all over The
US and Canada come in for this workshop,
and,
it's really powerful. It's it's ease I say
it's easily worth a year's worth of talk
therapy in that three days to do that.
Yeah. I don't know that. But you can
Google me.
Go to d2counseling.com,
and there's
information about me, about our practice, and so
forth. And I just wanna thank you for
(41:19):
the opportunity to come on here and talk
about,
mastery and recovery, and,
I appreciate the opportunity.
Yeah. It's great. I'll, excited to see you
out here in May. Couple of months, you
and I will be able to see each
other in person. I'm I'm in Sedona, so
I'll I'll drive down to the,
to the symposium.
Yeah. You know, just a quick little quick
(41:39):
little drive for me. Question two, are you,
for people who do not live in Texas,
do you have people in the practice who
are licensed elsewhere?
Yes. And, I carry license in about three
different states, but it's always iffy, you know,
on on who's licensed
where. I don't know that we've got all
50 covered.
If somebody comes in for the workshop, they
can that that works.
(42:01):
For folks who wanna do online stuff, I'm
happy to be a resource for them to
help them track down somebody they can work
with regardless of where they're at. We'll either
have somebody here they can work with, or
I'm well connected enough across the country like
you. You and I can put our heads
together and probably get off your feet. Find
somebody.
Yeah. We'll be a resource for people if
they need to find something. Yeah. Awesome. Thanks
(42:22):
thanks, Danielle. I really appreciate your time today.
You bet. Thanks again for having me.
Thanks for listening to this episode. If you
are a high achiever of the sex addiction
and you're looking for a recovery group full
of like minded men, visit successfuladdict.com.
We provide men with a recovery mastermind group
using four day retreats,
weekly group calls, and daily accountability check ins.
(42:44):
If you wanna achieve long term sobriety and
save your marriage, go to our website and
fill out an application. If you enjoyed this
episode, please pass it along to a friend
in recovery who would benefit from listening. It
is my mission to get this information out
to as many high achievers as possible, and
I can't do it without your help.
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