May 30, 2025 • 47 mins
Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith join me on this episode to talk about how to create a thriving marriage after infidelity.
There’s a ton of information out there about sex addiction recovery and betrayal trauma. But, what about thriving on the other side?
None of us gets into recovery just to have a mediocre relationship filled with triggers, a lack of safety, and arguments.
You want to THRIVE!
This episode will help you and your partner get there. Matt and Joanna Raabsmith are inspirational leaders in the betrayal healing space. Their work has helped thousands of couples heal from the damage caused by sex and porn addiction.
In this episode, we talk about how couples can transition from crisis to thriving.
Here are the Free resources for couples provided by Matthew and Joanna: raabsmithteam.com/free.
You can find their book here on Amazon: link to their book
Go here for more info about the Renewing Us Program: https://raabsmithteam.com/renewingus
If you’re a high-achiever, executive, or entrepreneur looking for a recovery group designed specifically for successful men with sex addiction, visit my website here for more info: successfuladdict.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Thriving after betrayal. It's one of the harder
things that couples run into. Right? Recovery, you
know, that there's road maps for that. But
again, to come back together and actually have
a marriage that's better than it was before,
let's face it. It's not easy, but there
is a road map that can get you
there and that is exactly what we're gonna
discuss in this episode.
(00:21):
You are listening to the sex addiction podcast
for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and entrepreneurs.
This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and
recovery principles specifically to the mindset of the
high and recovery principles
specifically to the mindset of the high achiever.
I'm your host, Roland Cochran, founder of The
Successful Addict, a recovery group for high achieving
men struggling with sex and porn addiction. For
more information about joining our group or attending
(00:44):
our next retreat, visit successful addict dot com.
And now enjoy the rest of the episode.
I'm here with the Rabsmiths,
which,
for a lot of you probably don't need
an introduction because,
Joanna and Matthew have done a fantastic job
of,
shining light in this space,
bringing hope into this space, resources into this
(01:06):
space.
You guys are a a household name in
the in the sex fiction field. How cool
is that?
I'm trying I'm trying to get my way
there because I do. I I just like
you guys, you know, I'm I'm familiar with
your I've heard your story a couple different
occasions.
And just like mine, it's like,
something about this space that I just can't
I couldn't just be a I couldn't just
(01:26):
be an addict
who recovered and got out. It was like,
man, this is messed up. Like and the
more I was standing here, I'm like, that's
messed up, and that's messed up, and that's
messed up. And then I keep looking, I'm
like, this whole thing's messed up. And so
I I couldn't I just couldn't knowingly walk
away. And so, started this podcast and I'm
happy to have you guys here because,
what we're gonna be talking about today is
(01:47):
more of, like, most of my episodes is
how do we understand this thing so that
we can recover? You know, I think there's
so much of an emphasis on the crisis
phase, and that's why I don't really talk
about that much in my podcast is there's
tons of podcasts out there. You guys have
talked about that plenty, and your your resources
are fantastic for that. So it's like, I
don't I'm not trying to ever recreate the
wheel. I'm, I'm I'm trying to, like, how
(02:08):
do we thrive in this thing individually? How
do we thrive as a couple? So,
and more importantly, because, most of my listeners
are,
executives, entrepreneurs,
business owners of some kind, you know, I,
I always kind of cater the conversation really
to them because we are up against a
really unique set of challenges. So let's dive
let's dive right in. What we were talking
(02:29):
about before we hit record was,
the the
the successful
culture that we have built, especially in America
and what that tee how that kinda tees
us up for failure. Matt, you were you
were speaking to some critical pieces. I'm gonna
actually have you lead off. I'll I'll I'll
add on any that I forgot, but, you
know, as we're talking about
(02:51):
compulsive sexuality, just cheating and fidelity in general,
How does this happen, like, to couples who
seemingly it shouldn't happen to? You know, wife's
super attractive, husband's attractive, they live this really
beautiful life, they live in a beautiful home,
they have access to everything in the world,
and all of a sudden people are cheating
on each other. What the heck's going on?
Yeah. And it happens way more than you
(03:11):
realize. Like, we we
when we first got started, it was amazing
how many couples were coming to us who
were super successful. Right? They were CEOs. They
were running companies. They were doing all the
things they wanted to do. They had everything
in life that you would think, like, you
need to to have the great marriage,
the great connection, and they were falling apart.
Right? They were just coming into our offices
(03:33):
going, like, I I don't know if we
have another day in, let alone another year.
And we'd start to talk about it, and
you would. You'd uncover all this infidelity, right,
all these all these different behaviors. And the
wife's looking at us going, like, I don't
think I can trust this guy. Like, I'm
not I'm not sure that I'm ever gonna
step back into this space. And what's amazing
is for someone to be that successful
(03:53):
in such a in kind of that business
space, in that professional space, and then to
struggle so mightily in the relational space. And
I think part of the reality is there's
just two different spaces, and I don't think
we talk about that enough. Like, it is
different
going into a boardroom than in the bedroom.
Right? It's different walking through
a relationship with a intimate romantic partner where
(04:14):
there's vulnerability. There's a much different dance, and
so many of us weren't trained for that.
We weren't trained for that kind of relationship,
that kind of connection.
And so we lean into what we were
trained. And
most men were trained, like, my sexual appetite
is what I go after. Right? What what
is what I'm gonna go and get, I'm
gonna go have. And if I've got the
(04:36):
resources, then I have access to more of
that. And so that's the life I'm used
to, and then I kinda step into this
marriage relationship, this this kind of more family
oriented relationship, and it's a totally different game.
Yeah. And I think
as
you desire more and more connection and intimacy
in that close relationship, more and more vulnerability
(04:56):
is required. And I think in general, in
our culture,
vulnerability is discouraged in men. Right? Like, from
a very young age, it's kind of drilled
into guys that it's not okay to have
emotions. It's not okay to have feelings. And
I think the more successful you are, the
more responsibility
you then have, the more risk of exposure
(05:17):
in that vulnerability. Right? That you you can
really be harmed. Even your family can maybe
be harmed. Right? And so I think that
a lot of times they've learned to build
a protective wall around themselves for multiple different
reasons.
And Matt said something interesting because I think
it goes along. I had my last guest,
she was talking about this too. She said,
(05:37):
you know, there's conversations that couples aren't having
before they get married. And Matt just brought
something up
that is,
I get why it doesn't come up because,
it's kind of a weird thing to bring
up. But, you know, for the ladies
dating and interested in successful men, which we
know is a lot of I mean, statistically,
we know the number one attracting feature is
(05:59):
income potential, right, and it's just and and
it's been the last research I saw said
that it was growing, that income potential is
actually becoming even higher of a, attractive trait.
But again, for when you're getting with a
guy like that, there are some things to
ask
that seem bizarre to ask. Like,
hey, have, you know, does do does part
(06:20):
of your successful
journey involve
stacking up women as trophies? Like, was that
a part of your high school and college
experience?
And what do you think you're going to
be able to turn that off now that
we're married? I mean, that is a
awkward question to ask your partner because here
you are, you're dating,
(06:40):
he, you know, you're four months in for
to your knowledge, he hasn't cheated on you
yet. And it's really hard to ask, hey,
like, how was this behavior something that you
did? Because it's very common for
outgoing charismatic males to,
chase chase women in high school and college.
And but again, it's one of those awkward
(07:01):
things of, like, how do I know this
is gonna stop? How do you know this
is gonna stop? Yeah. Right? And I think
I think it's a tough question because I
I know how the guy's gonna answer. He's
gonna say, oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was
just college.
But in the end, I I think,
come on. I I run these groups.
It didn't stop. It might have stopped for
a couple years, and then it came right
back. So but I think that's part of
(07:21):
what we're talking about around,
the image of success being set kind of
to your point, Matt, being separate from
a monogamous
committed relationship where we're preserving the sexual container.
I mean, these are these are very, very,
very different discussions. And I would say we
live in a world that doesn't I know
we claim to value monogamy and preserving the
(07:42):
sexual energy, but I like I said, I
don't I don't I don't see that. I
see a world that uses sex for almost
anything but the relationship.
Are you guys seeing the same thing and
what impact have you seen on that with
your clients?
Oh, absolutely. And I mean and it's not
to take the responsibility off of anybody, but
it is to be real about the environments
(08:02):
that we're building. When I talk to the
guys who are talking about the conferences that
they go to, the meetings that they're a
part of, the the ways that deals are
getting done, right,
it's almost always that sex, right, alcohol,
power, all influence, all of these things are
getting melded into one, and they're being used
as a part of the kind of financial,
the business system.
(08:23):
And so
having someone
in that system who has that history, like
you said, of maybe, hey. I'm used to
my my sense of kind of worth or
I'm used to my sense of well-being being
partly attached to who I'm with, how many
people I'm with, how attractive they are, right,
the way that the way that grants me
status. And so if I've got that back
(08:44):
history, I get put in this environment,
it's it's almost an automatic and not remembering
that the habits that we form when we're
young are the habits that we keep unless
we're actively fighting against them. And so it's
not a surprise that we get these cases.
Right? We're not usually, when we hear the
story, we're like, yep. That makes sense. Like,
it makes sense that you walked right into
that trap. It caught you, and then you
(09:05):
didn't get out. Right? And you didn't get
out until she found out. Right? The wife
is now devastated. Right? She's crushed
because even if they didn't have the conversation,
there still was that expectation. Right? And there
was that expectation that said, hey. Wait a
minute. I thought
our life would be different. Right? It would
be separated
from that world.
(09:25):
And that's oftentimes how it's kind of, you
know, kind of shown. Right? Like, hey. Yeah.
I know that's going on, but that's not
what I do. Right? I'm I'm away from
all that when they're actually facing. And and,
Joanna, I gotta ask. Like,
it's it I'm always shocked at how unaware
the women are that this is going on
in male culture. Like,
(09:46):
I can't believe that they're, like, they're they're
so, like, oh my gosh, men do that?
I'm like, where have you been living? Like,
I've known men have done that my whole
life. Do you wanna speak to that? Why
how like, is it something they don't wanna
believe? Is it something like like, how do
how are women so blind to the influence
of this in male culture today? Absolutely. Yeah.
I think we all are exposed to the
(10:08):
culture. Right? But I think there's
the real conversations are so siloed.
Right? I don't know too many guys who
are going around talking to their girlfriends
sharing the details around what's actually going on.
Right? And so it's it's not just hidden
kind of in a relationship. Right? But it's
also hidden in males in our culture. Right?
(10:29):
Like, I know my guy friends had conversations
that were very different than ones they ever
had with me in middle school and high
school and college. Right? And so going, like,
not realizing not being aware what you're not
aware of. Right? And so I think that's
what so many partners in relationship. Right? And
all of a sudden,
they they realize this little bit of information
(10:51):
when they get that little bit, right, that
first discovery day,
all of a sudden, it all starts pouring
out. They realize
how much they didn't know, or sometimes they
were just flat out lied to their whole
life. Right? Like, women are absolutely lied to
when they're told things like
pornography is not a big deal. Right? Like,
(11:12):
it's it's it's it's a habit I struggle
with, and it's okay. It's under control. Right?
And it is amazing.
Right? Because especially in a
relationship, I have two choices at that point.
Right? If I if my gut is telling
me something feels off, I'm gonna ask my
my spouse what's going on, and they lie.
They flat out lie to my face, which
(11:33):
is every single story I've ever heard. Right?
Mine mine included. Yeah. I I I wished
mine was I wish mine was coming clean,
but, it wasn't.
Nope. I've yet to hear that story. Right?
There's always some
piece of deception.
I'm left either
trusting my gut, which is so important for
just my personal well-being, being able to trust
(11:55):
myself and my intuition,
or
and that but that means not trusting my
spouse that I have put everything into.
Right? Like, I had basically tied my whole
life, my whole well-being to this person.
I'm completely,
usually, intimate and vulnerable with this person for
many women. Right? Like, they really are. They're
(12:16):
showing up in the relationship that way even
though their spouse is not. And so the
idea
that in that moment, not trusting my spouse
means I lose that secure attachment. Secure attachment
is one of the absolute base needs we
all have to thrive in life. Right? And
so so many women go, well, I would
rather
keep that secure attachment than trust my gut.
(12:37):
And so they believe the lie, and they
continue on. And so I think kind of
just culturally and then even specifically in the
relationship, those are some of the factors that
play out. When you bring up that that
was perfect segue into my next point, which
was,
you know, when we're talking about
successful
men, they typically,
are with women.
(12:58):
They're with a a certain kind of woman,
and and it and it varies to a
degree. But, typically, I would say together,
there is this there is often a shared,
a shared drive for, hey. Let's get the
perfect life. Let's have the perfect family. Let's
have the perfect vacations.
Let's have let's just get let's have the
vacation house. Let's let's do life perfectly. I
(13:18):
think that and I think that's common, I
think, amongst
high achievers. It's not a dream. It's actually
something that can be obtained.
And so that kind of venture, gets into
this other aspect of,
both, you know, I think I think the
temptation there is,
to look
there's a desire to look perfect. And I
(13:40):
think that introduces a whole,
plethora of of challenges. I think, you know,
I'm gonna I'm gonna speak to the male
standpoint. I think, Joanna, you'd probably be best
to speak to what it's like to be
married and in that environment. You know, I
think for for the men, there's a ton
of pressure and I think with the pressure
comes entitlement. I think none of us men
wanna admit that.
None of us wanna admit that I feel
(14:01):
entitled to doing whatever I want because I
earn money. I I think all of us,
like, no. No. No. No. That's not me.
I'll tell you this. In recovery, there is
an aspect of I built this. Therefore, like
like, you should be you should be thankful,
you should be impressed. And, again, I I
I'm not proud of that. I don't want
that, but I think there is I think
to some degree, because I'm pouring so much
(14:23):
of myself into it, there is this, like,
hey. Appreciate
me, acknowledge me thing. And, that can go
one of two ways. One, your you do
get appreciated and acknowledged for it by your
spouse and by and, again, I don't know
if that validation is necessarily healthy. Or number
two, your wife's like, so what? You may
you you made a hundred k this month.
(14:43):
Like, so, like, you were gone. We are
disconnected. We haven't had sex in, like, three
weeks. Like, you know, to her, it's like,
so I don't care about that. So I
think but that whole challenge is, well, well,
it's like, well, what do you mean you
don't care about? I thought we were building
the perfect life. What do you mean you
don't care about that? Right? It's this it's
this interesting thing about, again, about successful culture
(15:04):
of, hey. I thought we were building something
perfect together, and it's supposed to go this
way. And I think that is another confounding
element. I think it contributes to acting out
and the
progression of acting out. But then I also
think it harms the recovery aspect because I
think when there's this
whole we're perfect, we don't have problems thing,
(15:25):
it really messes with the coupleship because
now it's rather than just healing and and
adhering to sound psychological,
you know, and relational principles,
You're trying to juggle something that has nothing
to do with humanity. Right? Perfection standards,
expectations,
purity culture, ideals. Right? I mean, I constantly
(15:48):
saw my wife. It was like, oh my
gosh. You I put you here,
and now all that's all that's gone. It
turns out that you weren't there. You're actually
someone. So now she's freaking out. But I
think it's a it's a pretty big distraction
because rather than, again, focusing on what we
should be focusing on,
we're
we're kind of caught up in what the
(16:08):
world how mad the world is at what
we did rather than what we are gonna
do as a couple.
Matt, I well, first, Joanna, speak to the
what it's like to be the woman in
that
we are perfect and striving for perfect environment
because that's a it's it's a it's a
it's a tough and distracting place to be.
Yes. Absolutely. And I think so much of
(16:29):
that
if you're in that place,
there's a a high level oftentimes of control
that you feel in your life. Right? And
and you have to hold on to that
control
to be able to continue living that perfect
life. And so for partners,
what is app what is immediately stripped away
(16:49):
from them when they discover what their spouse
has been doing when they discover the betrayal,
it's any sense of control. They feel absolutely
out of control. They feel absolutely powerless,
which I think is
part of why for them that feels so
scary because they don't know what all does
this mean I'm going to lose. Right? And
not only that, but what all what does
(17:11):
that mean about the reality
of this perfect life I thought we were
living? So many of my partners say, like,
we were the couple. We were the couple
all of our other friends pointed to to
say, like, they have the perfect life, the
perfect family, the perfect marriage,
and now all of that is shattered. Right?
I bought into that narrative too, and now
(17:31):
none of it feels true. And that's why
that's part of why that is so traumatic
for those partners. Right? Yes. Entire reality comes
crashing down.
Oftentimes, it went not even day. Like, one
moment,
right, when they discover, like, oh, things are
not as they see. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. Well
said. Well said. And then and, Matt, to
(17:51):
you, like,
how is this confound the because I do.
I see it. It introduces
another ball to juggle when you do not
need another ball to juggle. I mean, the
last thing a couple in betrayal needs is
one more, but you do. You have this
image,
man, you know,
what what's my what's my, what are our
(18:12):
friends gonna think? What do we you know,
it's a it's it's a bigger distraction than
I think
a lot of couples give credit for because
it's especially from a men's, a guy standpoint.
Because I'll tell you this right now, and
I I don't know if I've ever shared
this, so this is very vulnerable. I'm gonna
be completely honest.
When I when this whole thing happened,
I my first reaction wasn't, oh, crap. I'm
(18:32):
gonna lose my wife. My first reaction I
I hate saying this out loud. I can't
believe I'm doing this.
My first reaction was, oh, crap. I'm not
gonna be able to be the guy I
wanted to be. I'm not gonna be able
to go to the after parties after the
conference. I'm not gonna be able to go
to this thing with the mastermind group. I'm
not gonna be able to if if I'm
not gonna be able to flirt because that
was a part of the recipe was, like,
oh, I need to be this, like, guy
(18:53):
who women are just, like, lusting at. Like,
all of a sudden, it's like, oh my
gosh. I'm I'm gonna lose everything
that at from a 14 year old boy
and all the way up from 14 to
34, 20 years,
I've been trying to get the perfect six
pack, the perfect outfit, the you know, and
all of a sudden, it's like, well, now
she's she's she's gonna pull all that from
me. And now, like, so now what all
(19:14):
I have is my marriage with a woman
who doesn't even like me anymore because I'm
a cheat you know, it's like, that was
the first thing that went into my mind.
It was like, man, I should I should
just run. I should just run away. Yeah.
Well, and that's I mean, it's common. I've
had a lot of guys in my office
who've who've said the same thing. Right? Like,
wait a minute. Hold on. Does this mean
everything changes?
And does this mean that, right, my life
is totally different? And I get the joy
(19:34):
of telling them, yeah. It actually does. You're
not gonna be the same. Sorry, buddy.
It doesn't mean it's going to suck, and
I think that's the key. Right? Like,
the life in recovery is a good life.
It is a different life. Better. A good
life. It's much better. Like, I look at
my addict life and my recovery life, and
I there's not a choice. I mean, it's
not a second that I think about that
old life that I want it back. It
(19:55):
is recognizing, though, like Joanna said, there's so
much control involved in high achieving couples,
and part of recovery is recognizing I'm actually
going to have to give up control.
Part of, like, the whole 12 step idea
is that you think you have control over
your life. Your life is so out of
control.
You're going to have to decide if you're
gonna give up control
(20:16):
and really even just controlling the narrative. Now
a lot of times for couples, we found
they're not public in this information, and that's
not necessarily something we we, like, recommend. Like,
hey. Let's go tell everybody. We didn't tell
very many people when we were early on,
but the but the control in the relationship
will be a radical shift. Right? There will
be hard conversations about, hey. What does it
(20:36):
look like to go to a conference now?
I worked with a lot of pilots. Right?
And they're like, what does it look like
to travel? What does it look like to
work for my company
to be what I to do what I
do? Yeah. Can I do that, like you
said, without the flirting, without the partying, right,
without all of the things that led me
to this path that destroyed my marriage and
destroyed my life, can I still have those
(20:58):
same levels of success? And and and
guess what? That is gonna be part of
our our conversation. Because if those things were
a part of what destroyed our marriage, they're
going to be a part of our conversation
going forward. Even if it's my work life,
it's still
affecting my home life. Mhmm. And, Matt, I
it's funny. I've done so many of these
episodes. You guys are you guys will be
(21:21):
I don't know, episode 50, I think. It's
funny, I don't think anyone's
spoke to what you're speaking to, Matt, and
it's and it's I'm happy that you're doing
it. I speak to it on my solo
episodes, but when I'm with therapists, it's not
common that they're very rarely do therapists actually
understand
successful male culture or successful successful men because,
they either they either haven't, you know, been
(21:41):
a massive part of that. You know, typically,
I would say therapists are healers and so
they may or may not be that familiar
with that. But, Matt, you're bringing something up
that is so true. And, Joanna, you touched
on it too.
So much of this have been interwoven, like,
it's like, oh, success now is
partying alcohol.
It is,
(22:02):
you know, flirting. And I would I would
say not just even flirting with the opposite
sex, but, you know, flirting with the same
sex. So, oh, wow. That's a nice watch.
Oh, hey. Wow. I like your you know,
it's it's this you know, so much of
business has turned into, you know, relationship, relationship,
relationship. But more than that, it's turned into
how do we have these how do we
(22:23):
have these, like,
exciting transactional
relationships in condensed little ways? And it's, you
know, these little self you know, what what
do they call it in fight club? Self
or, single serving friends.
You know, it's it's it's that's really what
it is. Right? It's like we get into
involved where every single buddy every single person
is this, like, single serving thing with an
objective at the end of it. And to
(22:44):
your point, that's, a,
how healthy is that culture and, like, you
know, just just kinda watch that and just
make sure it's not not not you know?
I I fell way into it before I
knew I was into it. I I thought
everyone else was crazy for thinking that it
was crazy because I'm like, there's nothing crazy
about it. This is how success works. And
I think that was when people started trying
(23:05):
to rip this from me. I was very
defensive, not because of the acting out behaviors.
I actually I actually had tried to stop
those before I met my wife. I have
evidence of me doing all sorts of things
to try and stop those. Those I've never
really wanted in my life.
The problem
was the other stuff, the selling out, the
double life, triple life, quadruple life, putting on
a show for people, saying what they want,
(23:26):
suppressing my own needs,
kind of constructing my entire life, buying things
that I don't need. I mean, you know,
I was so into giving putting looking the
way that they wanted me to look Yeah.
That it really opened the door to
why be honest.
Why have integrity? Right? I mean, if if
I can succeed by being
(23:46):
one of these
85 people that I get to choose to
be that day, why would I be one
person?
And the challenge with that is to your
point, Matt,
if you're not one person, how do you
know who you are when you're that person?
And because here's what I realized. Out of
my 85 egos or parts, whatever you wanna
call them, out of my 85 egos that
(24:07):
I have, 74 of them cheat on my
wife.
Mhmm.
That so that's why I would really ask
all the guys listening is, like, I get
it. You're a shape shifter, and it is
a skill. Absolutely. And I'm not asking you
to stop that skill. What I want you
to be really honest is is of those
people that you shape shift into, how many
of them are how many of them how
many of them value monogamy?
Right? The truth is a lot of them
(24:28):
don't. They want money, attention.
They wanna be the best guy in the
room. And so
at a certain point, you know, maybe some
guys will resonate this to some guys won't.
At a certain point, I liked
how I was treated.
I liked the I liked the Roland that
I like the 74 Rollins that everybody treated.
I like how they looked at him. The
problem was he's not monogamous. He cares about
(24:50):
one thing, one thing, and only showing off.
Showing off and looking perfect. Right? And so
I I really appreciate you highlighting that, Matt,
because that's a
that's a
that's a big deal, and I think it's
not getting the attention that it deserves is
how much you know, I've said this before.
Successful male culture is three steps back.
So if you're not if your recovery is
not at least three steps forward so you
can stay neutral, then you are becoming
(25:12):
less sober every day. So, ideally, you would
be taking four steps forward or five steps
forward. But I I think, again, to your
point, Matt, I'm not trying to shift blame
here because, ultimately, we were the ones that
chose to go along with the culture.
Yeah. But at the same time, let's not
ignore
something that we talk about in the sex
education field, which is we are hardwired
for connection. So if you think that you're
(25:33):
gonna not care about the culture and the
majority,
you are. It's why I don't know if
you guys know this. A lot of the
porn porn industries went
the every view
on a video, they assign seven views so
that the number is way higher than the
real number so that guys feel less guilty
watching it because they look at the counter
and they say, oh, a 57,000
(25:54):
guys have watched this in the last six
days. I'm not weird.
Mhmm. The idea is you know what they're
doing. Right? And so which leads me to
kind of the point that I wanna speak
to, which is as a couple standpoint, I
love having a couple on the show because
we get to talk about something,
that that, that's why I love Jeff and
Judy's show too is, like, it's just it's
such a fun thing that we really need
(26:15):
to address because we kind of are talking
about two different issues here. Yes. We are
talking about what guys have led to believe
that has made these behaviors possible,
but I think, you know, the relationship's something
entirely different now. Like,
reconciling
two worldviews,
I don't think a lot of couples have
really thought about that until now. And now
(26:37):
it's like Yeah. Wow. We have to find
two world views
that collide, and they're asking questions they used
not to ask. And so now
times
betrayal recovery. It's like, it's not really about
the sex. It's like, so hold on. You
think that that's, like, the point of life?
Like, that's, like, a well you know, not
like like, now it's like, I don't wanna
be married to you for two reasons now.
(26:58):
One, you're next. I would and I don't
like your outlook. But, again, these are discussions
that shocked me that these weren't coming up
before they got married. But, nonetheless, that is
why I think I agree with what Matt
said. Life in this is way better than
before because you and your wife should be
having these good conversations. Whether you guys end
up staying married or not, This is what
relationship should we talk about. Like, this this
(27:18):
is the stuff. We don't get distracted and
just unsubscribe
from rent everything real and opt into the
world of capitalism materialism. Like, you know, there's
realness here. So I would love to pivot
into that direction because I think you guys
do a really great job of speaking to
that. So I think that's the first thing
is,
how do we reconcile this? You're now we
have a woman who thinks
(27:39):
all that guys who do what her husband
did,
it makes like, guys who do that are
just a monsters, pigs. They have, like, stay
away from them. These are how do you
stay in a marriage with a guy, though,
if that's what
if guys who do this are that? And
I mean, I'm supposed to stay married to
a guy like that. I think I think
it's a it's something that women need to
(28:02):
face head on. Joanna, can you speak to
that? Because really what your husband's asking you
to do is kind of soften your morals
and soften your values is what it feels
like he's asking. When he's asking for you
to kinda change your mind on that, that's
a big ask. Yeah. Absolutely. What's so what's
so interesting is you would assume that that's
the view most of them would take immediately.
(28:24):
And they do about the behaviors.
They do about the choices.
But it is amazing to me how many
partners come into my office going,
but no. But I've I've seen a different
side of them. I know I've experienced something
different. Right? And and usually, we're pretty upfront
about that too. Like, you wouldn't have been
married. You wouldn't have been, like, taken all
(28:44):
the steps together that you have taken.
There is something you've experienced in there, and
that's something that you love. And if he
could show up consistently in that way, I
think that's what those partners want, and that's
why they're willing to fight for it. Right?
If they had never experienced any of that,
they'd be out the door so fast. And
sometimes they aren't. Some I'm like, I'm sure
(29:05):
they are. But the ones who come into
our office are going, wait.
There has to be some
shared values in there somewhere. Yeah. Right? And
so a big part of the healing, the
recovery process for the couple
is rediscovering
our shared values
through this healing process. Process. And so that's
(29:25):
that's one of the the journeys. It takes
a while. It's not like day one. It's
not even, like, year one sometimes. It's a
long journey to get to that place.
But at some point, there does need to
be a reconciling
of these, right, those different world views, experiences,
values,
creating something unified together. Because, like, Joanne and
(29:45):
I, one of our shared values is, like,
embodied experiences.
We want to live life. We are just
we do not wanna sit at home watching
TV,
doing the same thing over and over again.
We we have both shared and talked about
how much a really unique exciting life matters
to us. And so our finances matter. The
success in which we do our business matters
(30:07):
because that feeds into that value. And so
while we don't feel like we're attached to
status
or to something that just makes us look
good, we know that shared experiences makes us
happy. And so we both work hard. We
educate ourselves. Right? We train ourselves to be
good at what we do so we can
go afford the kind of lived experiences that
we want. And so we'll talk to couples
(30:28):
all the time. Like, if you want to
spend a year traveling around the world because
that's the value that you have as a
couple, that's the thing that matters to you,
then then then you can get around that,
and you can talk about how do we
build a life that builds that. Right? And
so so many of these couples, they want
to have a big impact. What what I've
really been amazed when we're working with a
(30:49):
high achieving couple, one of their usually shared
values is a deep impact on others. They
wanna do something significant.
And so a lot of times, we'll ask
them, okay. Is that thing that you wanna
do significant make $10,000,000,
or is it to affect 10,000,000 people, or
is it right what's the thing?
And it's amazing how many of these couples
end up later on in their journey doing
(31:10):
something significant. Right? Either either starting something or
helping to to create a movement.
And that's where we talk about, like, you're
gonna have that better that's the recovery experience.
Right? That's the going, oh, I know what
I was chasing before,
and that was vanity. Right? That was wind.
That was nothing.
Now what we're chasing, we're one chasing together,
(31:31):
and it's having some type of kind of
legacy. It has an impact
that gives back. And even if that impact
is just the betterment of our relationship. And
so I think Joanna is absolutely right. It's
that it's that sense of shared values. And
then I think the other side is that,
is there a willingness
to change? Is there a willingness kind of
like you said, like, to be able to
to to separate some behaviors out and go,
(31:53):
you know what? There's some things I do
I've never wanted to really be a part
of me. I don't I don't necessarily say
that this is the part I wanna go
forward. And if we can agree on that
and boundary that, right, and just say, like,
hey. I like you, but the part that's
out there,
right, having a girlfriend on the side, that
part we both have to agree, he's gone.
(32:14):
Right? Like, he can't stay married to us
anymore. Right? He can't stay a part of
this relationship.
If we agree on that,
then it's really simple about, like, okay. What's
how do we keep him out? Right? What
keeps him from visiting?
And that's gonna be as the guy, that's
gonna be my responsibility. Right? It's not gonna
be my wife's. I'm not gonna put that
on hers. And what is incredible is I
(32:34):
mean, we've seen stories you can imagine in
terms of level of infidelity and brokenness and
things that you go, there is no way
a couple comes back from that. And I
have seen so many partners so forgiving.
Right? So willing to go, you get your
second chance. Right? You get the chance to
make this right,
but only when they can get to those
shared values. I think only when they can
(32:55):
get to that kind of core group. Mhmm.
Mhmm. And and, you know, Joanna may hit
something because I think this is one of
the,
you know, it sounds so great when you
say that. Like, it's like, oh, yeah. The
but the truth is,
you can hold the the these ladies are
holding both. Right? It's like, yeah. We have
this and, like, this is why we're together
and then, but I mean, they they, you
(33:16):
know, the way that this works, you can
hold two beliefs and they can be opposing.
Now rarely are they active at the same
time. You might have a killer evening together
and have this cool date night where that's
not there, and then you she becomes triggered,
and as they're going to bed, it's back.
Right? So I think that's the thing that
couples you understand, you know, and that was
something for it's really tough for guys because
(33:38):
they really wanna see this up into the
right. I know. And,
right, you know, but
it you your wife can hold,
man, we have so many, like, gosh, I'm
so glad we share this together. It's so
fun that we could do that. I would
love to see where this goes long term
and she can hold the same exact value
that says
he likes women who are younger and more
(33:58):
fit than me. Mhmm. Right? I'm I'm, you
know, I need to lose weight. I need,
like and so I think guys, you understand,
like, can you imagine holding those two and
how ugly that one is and how beautiful
this one is? And she can hold them
at the same time. Like I said, rarely
at the same exact time, but, I mean,
you know, she could be thirty minutes from
now. She could see something on Instagram of
(34:19):
a woman who's very fit, and she could
wonder, oh, I wonder if that's the type
of women that he would act out with.
Right? And so I think
there's this,
there's this this battle
that,
you're holding to one ugly reality and one
beautiful reality simultaneously.
And I think that's
I think that's challenging, especially because and and
(34:42):
I'd love to ask you, Joanna, on what
you like, what do you what does a
guy do? You can't tell her to change
her reality because if you do, that is
gonna, like, come on.
I don't know if you dipped your toe
in that arena, but that is I dipped
my toe there a few times and that's
not a that is a bad idea.
But in the end, it it it's not
not true. I mean, Joanna, they they they
(35:03):
can't hold some of these ugly realities about
the significance
of why this happened
and have a good marriage. You can't, like
Yeah. Those do need to be modified.
I I don't need think they need to
be forgotten, and I don't think they need
to be forgiven. I think you can go
forward without forgiving and,
forgotten. I don't think you necessarily need to
(35:24):
do those two things. So I don't think
I'm forcing you ladies to do either of
those. I'm not.
But I would say the significance
does need to get turned into a place
that would allow a relationship to happen because
I do think
you if the significance of him doing those
things is
you're he did it because you're ugly. He
did it because he's bored with you. He
did it because he loves he likes younger
women and not you anymore.
(35:46):
He doesn't he doesn't respect women. I mean,
if that's the significance of why he did
this, I don't know if you're gonna be
able to have a thriving relationship. Can you
speak to that, Joanna? Because I don't, Matt
and I, all we can do is be
empathetic and and be in our recovery.
But outside of that, Matt and I can't
tell you what to think about us. And
I think if Matt and I try, your
system says,
(36:06):
of course. Of course, you want me to
change that. Right? It's gonna go. We're gonna
be nice.
Yeah. This is a this is a I
would say this is a, Matt, like, other
couples who have decided to go the distance
with this and they're, you know, rounding year
year 1.5,
year two,
this does start to become the rate limiting
step, which is
I feel like we can't blossom because there's
(36:28):
things that you think about guys like me
and it's and it's and it's really tough
for us to flourish in the way that
we need to. What are Matt and I
supposed to do? Because it really feels like
I I, you know, I felt really powerless
in that situation.
Totally. So I'll kinda speak to the partner's
experience first and then what you should do.
So so what basically, what's going on for
(36:49):
that betrayed spouse is we call it betrayal
trauma. That spouse has been traumatized,
and this is actually a trauma reaction
her brain is trying to do to protect
her from ever being hurt like that again.
And so right? So if you have a
traumatic experience, your brain learns,
avoid anything that looks, smells,
(37:11):
like, sounds remotely
similar to that ever again. Otherwise, right, because
you're gonna be hurt. And so this is
you referred to, right, these trauma triggers, and
it could be any random thing.
Right? It's usually
that partner does not plan it. Right? It
comes out of usually the environment.
Something triggers that pain, that trauma, and it
(37:31):
actually sends her brain and her physical body
experience
right back to the first time she found
out about the betrayal.
And this is not something that they enjoy.
Right? Like, every partner I know would be
like, oh my gosh. If I could get
rid of this, I would, like, just tell
me what to do. Right? And so the
hard reality that both people need to know
(37:52):
is that trauma takes time to heal. Yeah.
Right? This is not going to go away
quickly. It's not going to go away overnight.
Yes. There are things that can help it.
Absolutely.
And so I would say, like, for that
partner getting plugged in with someone who understands
betrayal trauma, understands the way the brain works,
and what that partner can do to be
empowered
over those almost, like, automated reactions their body
(38:15):
is having that include emotions, include thoughts, include,
right, like, my actual physical reaction. Right? And
so
learning to understand that
is so important for that healing process. And
as that trauma heals, exactly what you're saying,
I'm not going to have a stronger reaction.
I may still hold the memory. That memory
may bring me grief, but that's much different
(38:37):
than that, like,
wow. You disgust me. Get away from me.
Right? And the and, like and I mean,
literally, two minutes after we were just, like,
holding each other cuddling, I was feeling so
safe. Right? And so it can happen
that quickly, and it can be very chaotic
and very confusing for both people in the
relationship. And so just, like, normalizing that understanding
(38:58):
for that partner, understanding what they can do
to start to heal is so important. And
I think on the other side, what you
can do is you can educate yourself on
betrayal trauma. So you're not going there. What
the heck's going on with my wife? I
have no idea, and it's driving me crazy.
Right? Like, all of a sudden you could
go, oh, I understand. Her body's reacting exactly
as it should be right now, and I
know she's taking steps to heal that. We're
(39:19):
okay.
Right? And all of a sudden,
it's not about you because what happens is
the guy makes it about him. Right? Like,
why aren't you trusting me yet? I'm doing
all the things in recovery I'm supposed to
do. Right? I get defensive because I probably
placed my value in recovery
on how well my wife is doing or
how good our relationship is feeling. Right? Yep.
(39:41):
Up and to the right. Up and to
the right. Why are why why why are
you why are you sabotaging our relationship? Why
don't you get over this? We're supposed to
be going up and to the right. And
I controlled my recovery so perfectly. I've done
all the things. Right? What for high achieving?
I think that and what can be really
tricky is I take all that success
over here and the identity I built up
over here and I go, well, now I'll
(40:02):
just use recovery instead.
I'll do recovery perfectly.
I'm the perfect model of good recovery.
Why is it my wife Have you worked
with these people before? I can tell, because,
yeah, they do. It's like, next thing you
know, it's like, dude, how are you in
18 intensives? Like, this is insane. Right? Yeah.
Yep. I don't think you can get an
eighteen year chip before year eighteen. I don't
(40:24):
think that's how it works.
And one and one of the things we'll
talk about because this does happen for this
cup these couples especially is
I have to recognize on the on the
kind of husband's side,
even if I've cut out the really extreme
behaviors,
if I have adjacent behaviors and those can
be really easy to miss. Like, maybe it's
(40:45):
when we have a big project at work
or we have a merger that's coming up,
and I kinda start to ghost the family.
Right? I start to just show up less
emotionally present or just less present in general.
Even if I'm not acting out,
that my wife, the signal that she's gonna
get is you started the car. You're in
the driveway. You're on your way out. And
so a lot of guys struggle to see
like, hey. I put those boundaries in place
(41:06):
like you told me to,
but they don't recognize, like but, yeah, it
looks like you're leaning up against that boundary,
right, and testing the fence like the Velociraptors
and t you know, in in in Jurassic
Park. Right? And that's going to terrify your
partner. Right? That's gonna those are that's gonna
trigger her. And so being able to recognize,
like, okay. How do we check-in regularly?
(41:27):
How do we talk about where we are?
Because it's amazing what we found. Couples do
so much better in recovery than they sometimes
need to talk about. Yeah. They a lot
of times, couples have made a lot of
progress,
but they haven't slowed down to talk about
it. And not that kind of, like, get
over it progress, but, like, hey. We're in
a different place. Right? This isn't a year
and a half ago.
But if they if you can get them
(41:48):
and slow down and talk about it rather
than the kind of demands. Right? The, hey.
Check me out. Look how good I'm doing.
And so I think that willingness to kind
of look at that, be aware of that,
and I go, hey. I get it. I'm
doing some of the things I used to
do that preceded some of my acting out
behaviors, but I've, you know, I've made a
call to a guy or I'm doing my
work. Right? I know exactly what I need
(42:08):
to have in place to not go there.
Mhmm. That's gonna create a whole different environment
in them in the relationship.
Right? Versus if she's the one having to
go, hey. Have you called somebody? Right? Have
you been to a meeting? Are you doing
your work? That's when things tend to kinda
unravel. Mhmm. And it's a it's a, I'm
I I Joanna, I appreciate you
(42:28):
going back to basics because I think one
thing I do, especially in this podcast, and
I'm saying this for listeners.
Guys, if you are newer to this and
you rely heavily on my podcast and the
experts that I bring in, you're probably missing
a lot of the basics.
I this podcast was not necessarily designed for
the basics in the crisis stage. I do
like to speak to that because I don't
(42:49):
think we we should ignore it, but at
the same time, if you're a listener listening
to this, what Joanna said, go over and
check I'm gonna have I'm gonna have them
tell you kind of all the different stuff
that they have. But Joe both Joanna and
Matt have a,
robust,
offerings.
A lot of them are free for you
guys to be able to partake in get
equipping yourself for some of us. Because I
(43:10):
think I think one thing Joanna said there
is
even for guys in advance so you guys
are listening to this and you're in advanced
stage recovery, I think we should go back
and reread
the the those some of those books. Right?
Reread you know, I just reread Michelle's,
betrayal bind again because it's like, alright. I
need I need to bring myself back in
this because I you know, it's like sometimes
we forget about that because my, you know,
(43:32):
my wife has had a recent set of
triggers now in our advanced layer because it's
hard for here to it's hard for her
to hear me speak on this because I'm
constantly speaking on stage about this. I'm constantly
and so she's hearing you know, she's reactivated
in a different way because she sees me
shamelessly
speaking to a way that I did and
that messes with her body because it's like,
(43:54):
oh, she's kind of put off by, wow,
he's speaking so detached from this and I'm
and this is so hurtful. Right? So my
point is, I think you brought up a
good point, Joanna. Like, we we gotta be
careful getting too
detached from what we did and what it's
like for her because
part of this whole ecosystem is really understanding
there are two things that are being held
(44:15):
simultaneously.
A deep
immense amount of love for each other. And
then over here, I can't believe
that guys in general would do this. Like,
how gross is this stuff. Right? And,
I would and the last thing I would
say, then I'll have I'll have you guys
kinda fill in on because I know you
guys got some cool stuff that you're cooking
on. I want you to share that. The
thing that I would say that you said
(44:36):
I think was really great was
we have to we gotta understand that there
are
you know, there's so many different states of
reality that you two are gonna be in
and and and and, Matt, you said this.
We gotta be careful not to judge that
that's a slip or a backslide
or, you know, I think I think educating
about yourselves about all this is up into
(44:58):
the right. I mean, that's just what it
is. It's just we're becoming better and better
and better equipped.
But, I mean, the triggers are gonna be
there. I mean, my my wife, you know,
we're into we're in some great recovery, but
my wife is still she still gets haunted
by
this. It's less about me now. It's more
about I hate that the world's this way.
Yeah. But, yeah, there's gonna be a lot
of layers to this as you go, and
(45:18):
in no way is that a backslide. But,
but I do wanna have you guys speak
to,
you guys have free resources. You guys have
some pretty amazing paid resources. I'm pretty sure
there is a is there a new, is
a book that is available or almost available?
Speak to,
speak to all of these things, and we
can include the link in the show notes.
The answer is yes, there is a book.
(45:39):
It's called building true intimacy.
It's really about taking what we learn working
with so many couples in recovery from day
one really to kinda when they were graduated,
we got to kick them out of the
nest
and seeing what it took for those couples
to go from absolute chaos Mhmm. To incredible
relationships. I mean, we were talking marriages that
(45:59):
truly everyone was jealous of because of how
close they were And the kind of things
you're like, if you knew the backstory, you'd
never believe it. And so we really wanted
because when we went through this, the kind
of idea was like, who knows how couples
get there, but good luck. And so we
really have always been passionate about creating resources
that help couples go from a to b
(46:19):
really, really efficiently. Yeah.
How wonderful was that podcast? The Rab Smiths,
for those of you who haven't heard them
speak before, it was just so much passion,
so much energy that they bring into this
field. There's so many couples that they're helping
through a very difficult process. And in the
show notes, you're gonna find three links. One
is for their free resources that they offer.
The second is for their book and then
(46:40):
the third is for their renewing us program.
If you are in a stuck place and
you're looking for help to kind of advance
your relationship,
check out the renewing us program. Link is
in the show
notes. Thanks for listening to this episode. If
you are a high achiever of the sex
addiction and you're looking for a recovery group
full of like minded men, visit successfuladdict.com.
(47:01):
We provide men with a recovery mastermind group
using four day retreats,
weekly group calls, and daily accountability check ins.
If you wanna achieve long term sobriety and
save your marriage, go to our website, fill
out our application.
If you enjoyed this episode, please pass it
along to a friend in recovery who would
benefit from listening. It is my mission to
get this information
(47:22):
out to as many high achievers as possible,
and I can't do it without your help.
Thriving after betrayal. It's one of the harder
things that couples run into. Right? Recovery, you
know, that there's road maps for that. But
again, to come back together and actually have
a marriage that's better than it was before,
let's face it. It's not easy, but there
is a road map that can get you
there and that is exactly what we're gonna
discuss in this episode.
(00:21):
You are listening to the sex addiction podcast
for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and entrepreneurs.
This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and
recovery principles specifically to the mindset of the
high and recovery principles
specifically to the mindset of the high achiever.
I'm your host, Roland Cochran, founder of The
Successful Addict, a recovery group for high achieving
men struggling with sex and porn addiction. For
more information about joining our group or attending
(00:44):
our next retreat, visit successful addict dot com.
And now enjoy the rest of the episode.
I'm here with the Rabsmiths,
which,
for a lot of you probably don't need
an introduction because,
Joanna and Matthew have done a fantastic job
of,
shining light in this space,
bringing hope into this space, resources into this
(01:06):
space.
You guys are a a household name in
the in the sex fiction field. How cool
is that?
I'm trying I'm trying to get my way
there because I do. I I just like
you guys, you know, I'm I'm familiar with
your I've heard your story a couple different
occasions.
And just like mine, it's like,
something about this space that I just can't
I couldn't just be a I couldn't just
(01:26):
be an addict
who recovered and got out. It was like,
man, this is messed up. Like and the
more I was standing here, I'm like, that's
messed up, and that's messed up, and that's
messed up. And then I keep looking, I'm
like, this whole thing's messed up. And so
I I couldn't I just couldn't knowingly walk
away. And so, started this podcast and I'm
happy to have you guys here because,
what we're gonna be talking about today is
(01:47):
more of, like, most of my episodes is
how do we understand this thing so that
we can recover? You know, I think there's
so much of an emphasis on the crisis
phase, and that's why I don't really talk
about that much in my podcast is there's
tons of podcasts out there. You guys have
talked about that plenty, and your your resources
are fantastic for that. So it's like, I
don't I'm not trying to ever recreate the
wheel. I'm, I'm I'm trying to, like, how
(02:08):
do we thrive in this thing individually? How
do we thrive as a couple? So,
and more importantly, because, most of my listeners
are,
executives, entrepreneurs,
business owners of some kind, you know, I,
I always kind of cater the conversation really
to them because we are up against a
really unique set of challenges. So let's dive
let's dive right in. What we were talking
(02:29):
about before we hit record was,
the the
the successful
culture that we have built, especially in America
and what that tee how that kinda tees
us up for failure. Matt, you were you
were speaking to some critical pieces. I'm gonna
actually have you lead off. I'll I'll I'll
add on any that I forgot, but, you
know, as we're talking about
(02:51):
compulsive sexuality, just cheating and fidelity in general,
How does this happen, like, to couples who
seemingly it shouldn't happen to? You know, wife's
super attractive, husband's attractive, they live this really
beautiful life, they live in a beautiful home,
they have access to everything in the world,
and all of a sudden people are cheating
on each other. What the heck's going on?
Yeah. And it happens way more than you
(03:11):
realize. Like, we we
when we first got started, it was amazing
how many couples were coming to us who
were super successful. Right? They were CEOs. They
were running companies. They were doing all the
things they wanted to do. They had everything
in life that you would think, like, you
need to to have the great marriage,
the great connection, and they were falling apart.
Right? They were just coming into our offices
(03:33):
going, like, I I don't know if we
have another day in, let alone another year.
And we'd start to talk about it, and
you would. You'd uncover all this infidelity, right,
all these all these different behaviors. And the
wife's looking at us going, like, I don't
think I can trust this guy. Like, I'm
not I'm not sure that I'm ever gonna
step back into this space. And what's amazing
is for someone to be that successful
(03:53):
in such a in kind of that business
space, in that professional space, and then to
struggle so mightily in the relational space. And
I think part of the reality is there's
just two different spaces, and I don't think
we talk about that enough. Like, it is
different
going into a boardroom than in the bedroom.
Right? It's different walking through
a relationship with a intimate romantic partner where
(04:14):
there's vulnerability. There's a much different dance, and
so many of us weren't trained for that.
We weren't trained for that kind of relationship,
that kind of connection.
And so we lean into what we were
trained. And
most men were trained, like, my sexual appetite
is what I go after. Right? What what
is what I'm gonna go and get, I'm
gonna go have. And if I've got the
(04:36):
resources, then I have access to more of
that. And so that's the life I'm used
to, and then I kinda step into this
marriage relationship, this this kind of more family
oriented relationship, and it's a totally different game.
Yeah. And I think
as
you desire more and more connection and intimacy
in that close relationship, more and more vulnerability
(04:56):
is required. And I think in general, in
our culture,
vulnerability is discouraged in men. Right? Like, from
a very young age, it's kind of drilled
into guys that it's not okay to have
emotions. It's not okay to have feelings. And
I think the more successful you are, the
more responsibility
you then have, the more risk of exposure
(05:17):
in that vulnerability. Right? That you you can
really be harmed. Even your family can maybe
be harmed. Right? And so I think that
a lot of times they've learned to build
a protective wall around themselves for multiple different
reasons.
And Matt said something interesting because I think
it goes along. I had my last guest,
she was talking about this too. She said,
(05:37):
you know, there's conversations that couples aren't having
before they get married. And Matt just brought
something up
that is,
I get why it doesn't come up because,
it's kind of a weird thing to bring
up. But, you know, for the ladies
dating and interested in successful men, which we
know is a lot of I mean, statistically,
we know the number one attracting feature is
(05:59):
income potential, right, and it's just and and
it's been the last research I saw said
that it was growing, that income potential is
actually becoming even higher of a, attractive trait.
But again, for when you're getting with a
guy like that, there are some things to
ask
that seem bizarre to ask. Like,
hey, have, you know, does do does part
(06:20):
of your successful
journey involve
stacking up women as trophies? Like, was that
a part of your high school and college
experience?
And what do you think you're going to
be able to turn that off now that
we're married? I mean, that is a
awkward question to ask your partner because here
you are, you're dating,
(06:40):
he, you know, you're four months in for
to your knowledge, he hasn't cheated on you
yet. And it's really hard to ask, hey,
like, how was this behavior something that you
did? Because it's very common for
outgoing charismatic males to,
chase chase women in high school and college.
And but again, it's one of those awkward
(07:01):
things of, like, how do I know this
is gonna stop? How do you know this
is gonna stop? Yeah. Right? And I think
I think it's a tough question because I
I know how the guy's gonna answer. He's
gonna say, oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was
just college.
But in the end, I I think,
come on. I I run these groups.
It didn't stop. It might have stopped for
a couple years, and then it came right
back. So but I think that's part of
(07:21):
what we're talking about around,
the image of success being set kind of
to your point, Matt, being separate from
a monogamous
committed relationship where we're preserving the sexual container.
I mean, these are these are very, very,
very different discussions. And I would say we
live in a world that doesn't I know
we claim to value monogamy and preserving the
(07:42):
sexual energy, but I like I said, I
don't I don't I don't see that. I
see a world that uses sex for almost
anything but the relationship.
Are you guys seeing the same thing and
what impact have you seen on that with
your clients?
Oh, absolutely. And I mean and it's not
to take the responsibility off of anybody, but
it is to be real about the environments
(08:02):
that we're building. When I talk to the
guys who are talking about the conferences that
they go to, the meetings that they're a
part of, the the ways that deals are
getting done, right,
it's almost always that sex, right, alcohol,
power, all influence, all of these things are
getting melded into one, and they're being used
as a part of the kind of financial,
the business system.
(08:23):
And so
having someone
in that system who has that history, like
you said, of maybe, hey. I'm used to
my my sense of kind of worth or
I'm used to my sense of well-being being
partly attached to who I'm with, how many
people I'm with, how attractive they are, right,
the way that the way that grants me
status. And so if I've got that back
(08:44):
history, I get put in this environment,
it's it's almost an automatic and not remembering
that the habits that we form when we're
young are the habits that we keep unless
we're actively fighting against them. And so it's
not a surprise that we get these cases.
Right? We're not usually, when we hear the
story, we're like, yep. That makes sense. Like,
it makes sense that you walked right into
that trap. It caught you, and then you
(09:05):
didn't get out. Right? And you didn't get
out until she found out. Right? The wife
is now devastated. Right? She's crushed
because even if they didn't have the conversation,
there still was that expectation. Right? And there
was that expectation that said, hey. Wait a
minute. I thought
our life would be different. Right? It would
be separated
from that world.
(09:25):
And that's oftentimes how it's kind of, you
know, kind of shown. Right? Like, hey. Yeah.
I know that's going on, but that's not
what I do. Right? I'm I'm away from
all that when they're actually facing. And and,
Joanna, I gotta ask. Like,
it's it I'm always shocked at how unaware
the women are that this is going on
in male culture. Like,
(09:46):
I can't believe that they're, like, they're they're
so, like, oh my gosh, men do that?
I'm like, where have you been living? Like,
I've known men have done that my whole
life. Do you wanna speak to that? Why
how like, is it something they don't wanna
believe? Is it something like like, how do
how are women so blind to the influence
of this in male culture today? Absolutely. Yeah.
I think we all are exposed to the
(10:08):
culture. Right? But I think there's
the real conversations are so siloed.
Right? I don't know too many guys who
are going around talking to their girlfriends
sharing the details around what's actually going on.
Right? And so it's it's not just hidden
kind of in a relationship. Right? But it's
also hidden in males in our culture. Right?
(10:29):
Like, I know my guy friends had conversations
that were very different than ones they ever
had with me in middle school and high
school and college. Right? And so going, like,
not realizing not being aware what you're not
aware of. Right? And so I think that's
what so many partners in relationship. Right? And
all of a sudden,
they they realize this little bit of information
(10:51):
when they get that little bit, right, that
first discovery day,
all of a sudden, it all starts pouring
out. They realize
how much they didn't know, or sometimes they
were just flat out lied to their whole
life. Right? Like, women are absolutely lied to
when they're told things like
pornography is not a big deal. Right? Like,
(11:12):
it's it's it's it's a habit I struggle
with, and it's okay. It's under control. Right?
And it is amazing.
Right? Because especially in a
relationship, I have two choices at that point.
Right? If I if my gut is telling
me something feels off, I'm gonna ask my
my spouse what's going on, and they lie.
They flat out lie to my face, which
(11:33):
is every single story I've ever heard. Right?
Mine mine included. Yeah. I I I wished
mine was I wish mine was coming clean,
but, it wasn't.
Nope. I've yet to hear that story. Right?
There's always some
piece of deception.
I'm left either
trusting my gut, which is so important for
just my personal well-being, being able to trust
(11:55):
myself and my intuition,
or
and that but that means not trusting my
spouse that I have put everything into.
Right? Like, I had basically tied my whole
life, my whole well-being to this person.
I'm completely,
usually, intimate and vulnerable with this person for
many women. Right? Like, they really are. They're
(12:16):
showing up in the relationship that way even
though their spouse is not. And so the
idea
that in that moment, not trusting my spouse
means I lose that secure attachment. Secure attachment
is one of the absolute base needs we
all have to thrive in life. Right? And
so so many women go, well, I would
rather
keep that secure attachment than trust my gut.
(12:37):
And so they believe the lie, and they
continue on. And so I think kind of
just culturally and then even specifically in the
relationship, those are some of the factors that
play out. When you bring up that that
was perfect segue into my next point, which
was,
you know, when we're talking about
successful
men, they typically,
are with women.
(12:58):
They're with a a certain kind of woman,
and and it and it varies to a
degree. But, typically, I would say together,
there is this there is often a shared,
a shared drive for, hey. Let's get the
perfect life. Let's have the perfect family. Let's
have the perfect vacations.
Let's have let's just get let's have the
vacation house. Let's let's do life perfectly. I
(13:18):
think that and I think that's common, I
think, amongst
high achievers. It's not a dream. It's actually
something that can be obtained.
And so that kind of venture, gets into
this other aspect of,
both, you know, I think I think the
temptation there is,
to look
there's a desire to look perfect. And I
(13:40):
think that introduces a whole,
plethora of of challenges. I think, you know,
I'm gonna I'm gonna speak to the male
standpoint. I think, Joanna, you'd probably be best
to speak to what it's like to be
married and in that environment. You know, I
think for for the men, there's a ton
of pressure and I think with the pressure
comes entitlement. I think none of us men
wanna admit that.
None of us wanna admit that I feel
(14:01):
entitled to doing whatever I want because I
earn money. I I think all of us,
like, no. No. No. No. That's not me.
I'll tell you this. In recovery, there is
an aspect of I built this. Therefore, like
like, you should be you should be thankful,
you should be impressed. And, again, I I
I'm not proud of that. I don't want
that, but I think there is I think
to some degree, because I'm pouring so much
(14:23):
of myself into it, there is this, like,
hey. Appreciate
me, acknowledge me thing. And, that can go
one of two ways. One, your you do
get appreciated and acknowledged for it by your
spouse and by and, again, I don't know
if that validation is necessarily healthy. Or number
two, your wife's like, so what? You may
you you made a hundred k this month.
(14:43):
Like, so, like, you were gone. We are
disconnected. We haven't had sex in, like, three
weeks. Like, you know, to her, it's like,
so I don't care about that. So I
think but that whole challenge is, well, well,
it's like, well, what do you mean you
don't care about? I thought we were building
the perfect life. What do you mean you
don't care about that? Right? It's this it's
this interesting thing about, again, about successful culture
(15:04):
of, hey. I thought we were building something
perfect together, and it's supposed to go this
way. And I think that is another confounding
element. I think it contributes to acting out
and the
progression of acting out. But then I also
think it harms the recovery aspect because I
think when there's this
whole we're perfect, we don't have problems thing,
(15:25):
it really messes with the coupleship because
now it's rather than just healing and and
adhering to sound psychological,
you know, and relational principles,
You're trying to juggle something that has nothing
to do with humanity. Right? Perfection standards,
expectations,
purity culture, ideals. Right? I mean, I constantly
(15:48):
saw my wife. It was like, oh my
gosh. You I put you here,
and now all that's all that's gone. It
turns out that you weren't there. You're actually
someone. So now she's freaking out. But I
think it's a it's a pretty big distraction
because rather than, again, focusing on what we
should be focusing on,
we're
we're kind of caught up in what the
(16:08):
world how mad the world is at what
we did rather than what we are gonna
do as a couple.
Matt, I well, first, Joanna, speak to the
what it's like to be the woman in
that
we are perfect and striving for perfect environment
because that's a it's it's a it's a
it's a tough and distracting place to be.
Yes. Absolutely. And I think so much of
(16:29):
that
if you're in that place,
there's a a high level oftentimes of control
that you feel in your life. Right? And
and you have to hold on to that
control
to be able to continue living that perfect
life. And so for partners,
what is app what is immediately stripped away
(16:49):
from them when they discover what their spouse
has been doing when they discover the betrayal,
it's any sense of control. They feel absolutely
out of control. They feel absolutely powerless,
which I think is
part of why for them that feels so
scary because they don't know what all does
this mean I'm going to lose. Right? And
not only that, but what all what does
(17:11):
that mean about the reality
of this perfect life I thought we were
living? So many of my partners say, like,
we were the couple. We were the couple
all of our other friends pointed to to
say, like, they have the perfect life, the
perfect family, the perfect marriage,
and now all of that is shattered. Right?
I bought into that narrative too, and now
(17:31):
none of it feels true. And that's why
that's part of why that is so traumatic
for those partners. Right? Yes. Entire reality comes
crashing down.
Oftentimes, it went not even day. Like, one
moment,
right, when they discover, like, oh, things are
not as they see. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. Well
said. Well said. And then and, Matt, to
(17:51):
you, like,
how is this confound the because I do.
I see it. It introduces
another ball to juggle when you do not
need another ball to juggle. I mean, the
last thing a couple in betrayal needs is
one more, but you do. You have this
image,
man, you know,
what what's my what's my, what are our
(18:12):
friends gonna think? What do we you know,
it's a it's it's a bigger distraction than
I think
a lot of couples give credit for because
it's especially from a men's, a guy standpoint.
Because I'll tell you this right now, and
I I don't know if I've ever shared
this, so this is very vulnerable. I'm gonna
be completely honest.
When I when this whole thing happened,
I my first reaction wasn't, oh, crap. I'm
(18:32):
gonna lose my wife. My first reaction I
I hate saying this out loud. I can't
believe I'm doing this.
My first reaction was, oh, crap. I'm not
gonna be able to be the guy I
wanted to be. I'm not gonna be able
to go to the after parties after the
conference. I'm not gonna be able to go
to this thing with the mastermind group. I'm
not gonna be able to if if I'm
not gonna be able to flirt because that
was a part of the recipe was, like,
oh, I need to be this, like, guy
(18:53):
who women are just, like, lusting at. Like,
all of a sudden, it's like, oh my
gosh. I'm I'm gonna lose everything
that at from a 14 year old boy
and all the way up from 14 to
34, 20 years,
I've been trying to get the perfect six
pack, the perfect outfit, the you know, and
all of a sudden, it's like, well, now
she's she's she's gonna pull all that from
me. And now, like, so now what all
(19:14):
I have is my marriage with a woman
who doesn't even like me anymore because I'm
a cheat you know, it's like, that was
the first thing that went into my mind.
It was like, man, I should I should
just run. I should just run away. Yeah.
Well, and that's I mean, it's common. I've
had a lot of guys in my office
who've who've said the same thing. Right? Like,
wait a minute. Hold on. Does this mean
everything changes?
And does this mean that, right, my life
is totally different? And I get the joy
(19:34):
of telling them, yeah. It actually does. You're
not gonna be the same. Sorry, buddy.
It doesn't mean it's going to suck, and
I think that's the key. Right? Like,
the life in recovery is a good life.
It is a different life. Better. A good
life. It's much better. Like, I look at
my addict life and my recovery life, and
I there's not a choice. I mean, it's
not a second that I think about that
old life that I want it back. It
(19:55):
is recognizing, though, like Joanna said, there's so
much control involved in high achieving couples,
and part of recovery is recognizing I'm actually
going to have to give up control.
Part of, like, the whole 12 step idea
is that you think you have control over
your life. Your life is so out of
control.
You're going to have to decide if you're
gonna give up control
(20:16):
and really even just controlling the narrative. Now
a lot of times for couples, we found
they're not public in this information, and that's
not necessarily something we we, like, recommend. Like,
hey. Let's go tell everybody. We didn't tell
very many people when we were early on,
but the but the control in the relationship
will be a radical shift. Right? There will
be hard conversations about, hey. What does it
(20:36):
look like to go to a conference now?
I worked with a lot of pilots. Right?
And they're like, what does it look like
to travel? What does it look like to
work for my company
to be what I to do what I
do? Yeah. Can I do that, like you
said, without the flirting, without the partying, right,
without all of the things that led me
to this path that destroyed my marriage and
destroyed my life, can I still have those
(20:58):
same levels of success? And and and
guess what? That is gonna be part of
our our conversation. Because if those things were
a part of what destroyed our marriage, they're
going to be a part of our conversation
going forward. Even if it's my work life,
it's still
affecting my home life. Mhmm. And, Matt, I
it's funny. I've done so many of these
episodes. You guys are you guys will be
(21:21):
I don't know, episode 50, I think. It's
funny, I don't think anyone's
spoke to what you're speaking to, Matt, and
it's and it's I'm happy that you're doing
it. I speak to it on my solo
episodes, but when I'm with therapists, it's not
common that they're very rarely do therapists actually
understand
successful male culture or successful successful men because,
they either they either haven't, you know, been
(21:41):
a massive part of that. You know, typically,
I would say therapists are healers and so
they may or may not be that familiar
with that. But, Matt, you're bringing something up
that is so true. And, Joanna, you touched
on it too.
So much of this have been interwoven, like,
it's like, oh, success now is
partying alcohol.
It is,
(22:02):
you know, flirting. And I would I would
say not just even flirting with the opposite
sex, but, you know, flirting with the same
sex. So, oh, wow. That's a nice watch.
Oh, hey. Wow. I like your you know,
it's it's this you know, so much of
business has turned into, you know, relationship, relationship,
relationship. But more than that, it's turned into
how do we have these how do we
(22:23):
have these, like,
exciting transactional
relationships in condensed little ways? And it's, you
know, these little self you know, what what
do they call it in fight club? Self
or, single serving friends.
You know, it's it's it's that's really what
it is. Right? It's like we get into
involved where every single buddy every single person
is this, like, single serving thing with an
objective at the end of it. And to
(22:44):
your point, that's, a,
how healthy is that culture and, like, you
know, just just kinda watch that and just
make sure it's not not not you know?
I I fell way into it before I
knew I was into it. I I thought
everyone else was crazy for thinking that it
was crazy because I'm like, there's nothing crazy
about it. This is how success works. And
I think that was when people started trying
(23:05):
to rip this from me. I was very
defensive, not because of the acting out behaviors.
I actually I actually had tried to stop
those before I met my wife. I have
evidence of me doing all sorts of things
to try and stop those. Those I've never
really wanted in my life.
The problem
was the other stuff, the selling out, the
double life, triple life, quadruple life, putting on
a show for people, saying what they want,
(23:26):
suppressing my own needs,
kind of constructing my entire life, buying things
that I don't need. I mean, you know,
I was so into giving putting looking the
way that they wanted me to look Yeah.
That it really opened the door to
why be honest.
Why have integrity? Right? I mean, if if
I can succeed by being
(23:46):
one of these
85 people that I get to choose to
be that day, why would I be one
person?
And the challenge with that is to your
point, Matt,
if you're not one person, how do you
know who you are when you're that person?
And because here's what I realized. Out of
my 85 egos or parts, whatever you wanna
call them, out of my 85 egos that
(24:07):
I have, 74 of them cheat on my
wife.
Mhmm.
That so that's why I would really ask
all the guys listening is, like, I get
it. You're a shape shifter, and it is
a skill. Absolutely. And I'm not asking you
to stop that skill. What I want you
to be really honest is is of those
people that you shape shift into, how many
of them are how many of them how
many of them value monogamy?
Right? The truth is a lot of them
(24:28):
don't. They want money, attention.
They wanna be the best guy in the
room. And so
at a certain point, you know, maybe some
guys will resonate this to some guys won't.
At a certain point, I liked
how I was treated.
I liked the I liked the Roland that
I like the 74 Rollins that everybody treated.
I like how they looked at him. The
problem was he's not monogamous. He cares about
(24:50):
one thing, one thing, and only showing off.
Showing off and looking perfect. Right? And so
I I really appreciate you highlighting that, Matt,
because that's a
that's a
that's a big deal, and I think it's
not getting the attention that it deserves is
how much you know, I've said this before.
Successful male culture is three steps back.
So if you're not if your recovery is
not at least three steps forward so you
can stay neutral, then you are becoming
(25:12):
less sober every day. So, ideally, you would
be taking four steps forward or five steps
forward. But I I think, again, to your
point, Matt, I'm not trying to shift blame
here because, ultimately, we were the ones that
chose to go along with the culture.
Yeah. But at the same time, let's not
ignore
something that we talk about in the sex
education field, which is we are hardwired
for connection. So if you think that you're
(25:33):
gonna not care about the culture and the
majority,
you are. It's why I don't know if
you guys know this. A lot of the
porn porn industries went
the every view
on a video, they assign seven views so
that the number is way higher than the
real number so that guys feel less guilty
watching it because they look at the counter
and they say, oh, a 57,000
(25:54):
guys have watched this in the last six
days. I'm not weird.
Mhmm. The idea is you know what they're
doing. Right? And so which leads me to
kind of the point that I wanna speak
to, which is as a couple standpoint, I
love having a couple on the show because
we get to talk about something,
that that, that's why I love Jeff and
Judy's show too is, like, it's just it's
such a fun thing that we really need
(26:15):
to address because we kind of are talking
about two different issues here. Yes. We are
talking about what guys have led to believe
that has made these behaviors possible,
but I think, you know, the relationship's something
entirely different now. Like,
reconciling
two worldviews,
I don't think a lot of couples have
really thought about that until now. And now
(26:37):
it's like Yeah. Wow. We have to find
two world views
that collide, and they're asking questions they used
not to ask. And so now
times
betrayal recovery. It's like, it's not really about
the sex. It's like, so hold on. You
think that that's, like, the point of life?
Like, that's, like, a well you know, not
like like, now it's like, I don't wanna
be married to you for two reasons now.
(26:58):
One, you're next. I would and I don't
like your outlook. But, again, these are discussions
that shocked me that these weren't coming up
before they got married. But, nonetheless, that is
why I think I agree with what Matt
said. Life in this is way better than
before because you and your wife should be
having these good conversations. Whether you guys end
up staying married or not, This is what
relationship should we talk about. Like, this this
(27:18):
is the stuff. We don't get distracted and
just unsubscribe
from rent everything real and opt into the
world of capitalism materialism. Like, you know, there's
realness here. So I would love to pivot
into that direction because I think you guys
do a really great job of speaking to
that. So I think that's the first thing
is,
how do we reconcile this? You're now we
have a woman who thinks
(27:39):
all that guys who do what her husband
did,
it makes like, guys who do that are
just a monsters, pigs. They have, like, stay
away from them. These are how do you
stay in a marriage with a guy, though,
if that's what
if guys who do this are that? And
I mean, I'm supposed to stay married to
a guy like that. I think I think
it's a it's something that women need to
(28:02):
face head on. Joanna, can you speak to
that? Because really what your husband's asking you
to do is kind of soften your morals
and soften your values is what it feels
like he's asking. When he's asking for you
to kinda change your mind on that, that's
a big ask. Yeah. Absolutely. What's so what's
so interesting is you would assume that that's
the view most of them would take immediately.
(28:24):
And they do about the behaviors.
They do about the choices.
But it is amazing to me how many
partners come into my office going,
but no. But I've I've seen a different
side of them. I know I've experienced something
different. Right? And and usually, we're pretty upfront
about that too. Like, you wouldn't have been
married. You wouldn't have been, like, taken all
(28:44):
the steps together that you have taken.
There is something you've experienced in there, and
that's something that you love. And if he
could show up consistently in that way, I
think that's what those partners want, and that's
why they're willing to fight for it. Right?
If they had never experienced any of that,
they'd be out the door so fast. And
sometimes they aren't. Some I'm like, I'm sure
(29:05):
they are. But the ones who come into
our office are going, wait.
There has to be some
shared values in there somewhere. Yeah. Right? And
so a big part of the healing, the
recovery process for the couple
is rediscovering
our shared values
through this healing process. Process. And so that's
(29:25):
that's one of the the journeys. It takes
a while. It's not like day one. It's
not even, like, year one sometimes. It's a
long journey to get to that place.
But at some point, there does need to
be a reconciling
of these, right, those different world views, experiences,
values,
creating something unified together. Because, like, Joanne and
(29:45):
I, one of our shared values is, like,
embodied experiences.
We want to live life. We are just
we do not wanna sit at home watching
TV,
doing the same thing over and over again.
We we have both shared and talked about
how much a really unique exciting life matters
to us. And so our finances matter. The
success in which we do our business matters
(30:07):
because that feeds into that value. And so
while we don't feel like we're attached to
status
or to something that just makes us look
good, we know that shared experiences makes us
happy. And so we both work hard. We
educate ourselves. Right? We train ourselves to be
good at what we do so we can
go afford the kind of lived experiences that
we want. And so we'll talk to couples
(30:28):
all the time. Like, if you want to
spend a year traveling around the world because
that's the value that you have as a
couple, that's the thing that matters to you,
then then then you can get around that,
and you can talk about how do we
build a life that builds that. Right? And
so so many of these couples, they want
to have a big impact. What what I've
really been amazed when we're working with a
(30:49):
high achieving couple, one of their usually shared
values is a deep impact on others. They
wanna do something significant.
And so a lot of times, we'll ask
them, okay. Is that thing that you wanna
do significant make $10,000,000,
or is it to affect 10,000,000 people, or
is it right what's the thing?
And it's amazing how many of these couples
end up later on in their journey doing
(31:10):
something significant. Right? Either either starting something or
helping to to create a movement.
And that's where we talk about, like, you're
gonna have that better that's the recovery experience.
Right? That's the going, oh, I know what
I was chasing before,
and that was vanity. Right? That was wind.
That was nothing.
Now what we're chasing, we're one chasing together,
(31:31):
and it's having some type of kind of
legacy. It has an impact
that gives back. And even if that impact
is just the betterment of our relationship. And
so I think Joanna is absolutely right. It's
that it's that sense of shared values. And
then I think the other side is that,
is there a willingness
to change? Is there a willingness kind of
like you said, like, to be able to
to to separate some behaviors out and go,
(31:53):
you know what? There's some things I do
I've never wanted to really be a part
of me. I don't I don't necessarily say
that this is the part I wanna go
forward. And if we can agree on that
and boundary that, right, and just say, like,
hey. I like you, but the part that's
out there,
right, having a girlfriend on the side, that
part we both have to agree, he's gone.
(32:14):
Right? Like, he can't stay married to us
anymore. Right? He can't stay a part of
this relationship.
If we agree on that,
then it's really simple about, like, okay. What's
how do we keep him out? Right? What
keeps him from visiting?
And that's gonna be as the guy, that's
gonna be my responsibility. Right? It's not gonna
be my wife's. I'm not gonna put that
on hers. And what is incredible is I
(32:34):
mean, we've seen stories you can imagine in
terms of level of infidelity and brokenness and
things that you go, there is no way
a couple comes back from that. And I
have seen so many partners so forgiving.
Right? So willing to go, you get your
second chance. Right? You get the chance to
make this right,
but only when they can get to those
shared values. I think only when they can
(32:55):
get to that kind of core group. Mhmm.
Mhmm. And and, you know, Joanna may hit
something because I think this is one of
the,
you know, it sounds so great when you
say that. Like, it's like, oh, yeah. The
but the truth is,
you can hold the the these ladies are
holding both. Right? It's like, yeah. We have
this and, like, this is why we're together
and then, but I mean, they they, you
(33:16):
know, the way that this works, you can
hold two beliefs and they can be opposing.
Now rarely are they active at the same
time. You might have a killer evening together
and have this cool date night where that's
not there, and then you she becomes triggered,
and as they're going to bed, it's back.
Right? So I think that's the thing that
couples you understand, you know, and that was
something for it's really tough for guys because
(33:38):
they really wanna see this up into the
right. I know. And,
right, you know, but
it you your wife can hold,
man, we have so many, like, gosh, I'm
so glad we share this together. It's so
fun that we could do that. I would
love to see where this goes long term
and she can hold the same exact value
that says
he likes women who are younger and more
(33:58):
fit than me. Mhmm. Right? I'm I'm, you
know, I need to lose weight. I need,
like and so I think guys, you understand,
like, can you imagine holding those two and
how ugly that one is and how beautiful
this one is? And she can hold them
at the same time. Like I said, rarely
at the same exact time, but, I mean,
you know, she could be thirty minutes from
now. She could see something on Instagram of
(34:19):
a woman who's very fit, and she could
wonder, oh, I wonder if that's the type
of women that he would act out with.
Right? And so I think
there's this,
there's this this battle
that,
you're holding to one ugly reality and one
beautiful reality simultaneously.
And I think that's
I think that's challenging, especially because and and
(34:42):
I'd love to ask you, Joanna, on what
you like, what do you what does a
guy do? You can't tell her to change
her reality because if you do, that is
gonna, like, come on.
I don't know if you dipped your toe
in that arena, but that is I dipped
my toe there a few times and that's
not a that is a bad idea.
But in the end, it it it's not
not true. I mean, Joanna, they they they
(35:03):
can't hold some of these ugly realities about
the significance
of why this happened
and have a good marriage. You can't, like
Yeah. Those do need to be modified.
I I don't need think they need to
be forgotten, and I don't think they need
to be forgiven. I think you can go
forward without forgiving and,
forgotten. I don't think you necessarily need to
(35:24):
do those two things. So I don't think
I'm forcing you ladies to do either of
those. I'm not.
But I would say the significance
does need to get turned into a place
that would allow a relationship to happen because
I do think
you if the significance of him doing those
things is
you're he did it because you're ugly. He
did it because he's bored with you. He
did it because he loves he likes younger
women and not you anymore.
(35:46):
He doesn't he doesn't respect women. I mean,
if that's the significance of why he did
this, I don't know if you're gonna be
able to have a thriving relationship. Can you
speak to that, Joanna? Because I don't, Matt
and I, all we can do is be
empathetic and and be in our recovery.
But outside of that, Matt and I can't
tell you what to think about us. And
I think if Matt and I try, your
system says,
(36:06):
of course. Of course, you want me to
change that. Right? It's gonna go. We're gonna
be nice.
Yeah. This is a this is a I
would say this is a, Matt, like, other
couples who have decided to go the distance
with this and they're, you know, rounding year
year 1.5,
year two,
this does start to become the rate limiting
step, which is
I feel like we can't blossom because there's
(36:28):
things that you think about guys like me
and it's and it's and it's really tough
for us to flourish in the way that
we need to. What are Matt and I
supposed to do? Because it really feels like
I I, you know, I felt really powerless
in that situation.
Totally. So I'll kinda speak to the partner's
experience first and then what you should do.
So so what basically, what's going on for
(36:49):
that betrayed spouse is we call it betrayal
trauma. That spouse has been traumatized,
and this is actually a trauma reaction
her brain is trying to do to protect
her from ever being hurt like that again.
And so right? So if you have a
traumatic experience, your brain learns,
avoid anything that looks, smells,
(37:11):
like, sounds remotely
similar to that ever again. Otherwise, right, because
you're gonna be hurt. And so this is
you referred to, right, these trauma triggers, and
it could be any random thing.
Right? It's usually
that partner does not plan it. Right? It
comes out of usually the environment.
Something triggers that pain, that trauma, and it
(37:31):
actually sends her brain and her physical body
experience
right back to the first time she found
out about the betrayal.
And this is not something that they enjoy.
Right? Like, every partner I know would be
like, oh my gosh. If I could get
rid of this, I would, like, just tell
me what to do. Right? And so the
hard reality that both people need to know
(37:52):
is that trauma takes time to heal. Yeah.
Right? This is not going to go away
quickly. It's not going to go away overnight.
Yes. There are things that can help it.
Absolutely.
And so I would say, like, for that
partner getting plugged in with someone who understands
betrayal trauma, understands the way the brain works,
and what that partner can do to be
empowered
over those almost, like, automated reactions their body
(38:15):
is having that include emotions, include thoughts, include,
right, like, my actual physical reaction. Right? And
so
learning to understand that
is so important for that healing process. And
as that trauma heals, exactly what you're saying,
I'm not going to have a stronger reaction.
I may still hold the memory. That memory
may bring me grief, but that's much different
(38:37):
than that, like,
wow. You disgust me. Get away from me.
Right? And the and, like and I mean,
literally, two minutes after we were just, like,
holding each other cuddling, I was feeling so
safe. Right? And so it can happen
that quickly, and it can be very chaotic
and very confusing for both people in the
relationship. And so just, like, normalizing that understanding
(38:58):
for that partner, understanding what they can do
to start to heal is so important. And
I think on the other side, what you
can do is you can educate yourself on
betrayal trauma. So you're not going there. What
the heck's going on with my wife? I
have no idea, and it's driving me crazy.
Right? Like, all of a sudden you could
go, oh, I understand. Her body's reacting exactly
as it should be right now, and I
know she's taking steps to heal that. We're
(39:19):
okay.
Right? And all of a sudden,
it's not about you because what happens is
the guy makes it about him. Right? Like,
why aren't you trusting me yet? I'm doing
all the things in recovery I'm supposed to
do. Right? I get defensive because I probably
placed my value in recovery
on how well my wife is doing or
how good our relationship is feeling. Right? Yep.
(39:41):
Up and to the right. Up and to
the right. Why are why why why are
you why are you sabotaging our relationship? Why
don't you get over this? We're supposed to
be going up and to the right. And
I controlled my recovery so perfectly. I've done
all the things. Right? What for high achieving?
I think that and what can be really
tricky is I take all that success
over here and the identity I built up
over here and I go, well, now I'll
(40:02):
just use recovery instead.
I'll do recovery perfectly.
I'm the perfect model of good recovery.
Why is it my wife Have you worked
with these people before? I can tell, because,
yeah, they do. It's like, next thing you
know, it's like, dude, how are you in
18 intensives? Like, this is insane. Right? Yeah.
Yep. I don't think you can get an
eighteen year chip before year eighteen. I don't
(40:24):
think that's how it works.
And one and one of the things we'll
talk about because this does happen for this
cup these couples especially is
I have to recognize on the on the
kind of husband's side,
even if I've cut out the really extreme
behaviors,
if I have adjacent behaviors and those can
be really easy to miss. Like, maybe it's
(40:45):
when we have a big project at work
or we have a merger that's coming up,
and I kinda start to ghost the family.
Right? I start to just show up less
emotionally present or just less present in general.
Even if I'm not acting out,
that my wife, the signal that she's gonna
get is you started the car. You're in
the driveway. You're on your way out. And
so a lot of guys struggle to see
like, hey. I put those boundaries in place
(41:06):
like you told me to,
but they don't recognize, like but, yeah, it
looks like you're leaning up against that boundary,
right, and testing the fence like the Velociraptors
and t you know, in in in Jurassic
Park. Right? And that's going to terrify your
partner. Right? That's gonna those are that's gonna
trigger her. And so being able to recognize,
like, okay. How do we check-in regularly?
(41:27):
How do we talk about where we are?
Because it's amazing what we found. Couples do
so much better in recovery than they sometimes
need to talk about. Yeah. They a lot
of times, couples have made a lot of
progress,
but they haven't slowed down to talk about
it. And not that kind of, like, get
over it progress, but, like, hey. We're in
a different place. Right? This isn't a year
and a half ago.
But if they if you can get them
(41:48):
and slow down and talk about it rather
than the kind of demands. Right? The, hey.
Check me out. Look how good I'm doing.
And so I think that willingness to kind
of look at that, be aware of that,
and I go, hey. I get it. I'm
doing some of the things I used to
do that preceded some of my acting out
behaviors, but I've, you know, I've made a
call to a guy or I'm doing my
work. Right? I know exactly what I need
(42:08):
to have in place to not go there.
Mhmm. That's gonna create a whole different environment
in them in the relationship.
Right? Versus if she's the one having to
go, hey. Have you called somebody? Right? Have
you been to a meeting? Are you doing
your work? That's when things tend to kinda
unravel. Mhmm. And it's a it's a, I'm
I I Joanna, I appreciate you
(42:28):
going back to basics because I think one
thing I do, especially in this podcast, and
I'm saying this for listeners.
Guys, if you are newer to this and
you rely heavily on my podcast and the
experts that I bring in, you're probably missing
a lot of the basics.
I this podcast was not necessarily designed for
the basics in the crisis stage. I do
like to speak to that because I don't
(42:49):
think we we should ignore it, but at
the same time, if you're a listener listening
to this, what Joanna said, go over and
check I'm gonna have I'm gonna have them
tell you kind of all the different stuff
that they have. But Joe both Joanna and
Matt have a,
robust,
offerings.
A lot of them are free for you
guys to be able to partake in get
equipping yourself for some of us. Because I
(43:10):
think I think one thing Joanna said there
is
even for guys in advance so you guys
are listening to this and you're in advanced
stage recovery, I think we should go back
and reread
the the those some of those books. Right?
Reread you know, I just reread Michelle's,
betrayal bind again because it's like, alright. I
need I need to bring myself back in
this because I you know, it's like sometimes
we forget about that because my, you know,
(43:32):
my wife has had a recent set of
triggers now in our advanced layer because it's
hard for here to it's hard for her
to hear me speak on this because I'm
constantly speaking on stage about this. I'm constantly
and so she's hearing you know, she's reactivated
in a different way because she sees me
shamelessly
speaking to a way that I did and
that messes with her body because it's like,
(43:54):
oh, she's kind of put off by, wow,
he's speaking so detached from this and I'm
and this is so hurtful. Right? So my
point is, I think you brought up a
good point, Joanna. Like, we we gotta be
careful getting too
detached from what we did and what it's
like for her because
part of this whole ecosystem is really understanding
there are two things that are being held
(44:15):
simultaneously.
A deep
immense amount of love for each other. And
then over here, I can't believe
that guys in general would do this. Like,
how gross is this stuff. Right? And,
I would and the last thing I would
say, then I'll have I'll have you guys
kinda fill in on because I know you
guys got some cool stuff that you're cooking
on. I want you to share that. The
thing that I would say that you said
(44:36):
I think was really great was
we have to we gotta understand that there
are
you know, there's so many different states of
reality that you two are gonna be in
and and and and, Matt, you said this.
We gotta be careful not to judge that
that's a slip or a backslide
or, you know, I think I think educating
about yourselves about all this is up into
(44:58):
the right. I mean, that's just what it
is. It's just we're becoming better and better
and better equipped.
But, I mean, the triggers are gonna be
there. I mean, my my wife, you know,
we're into we're in some great recovery, but
my wife is still she still gets haunted
by
this. It's less about me now. It's more
about I hate that the world's this way.
Yeah. But, yeah, there's gonna be a lot
of layers to this as you go, and
(45:18):
in no way is that a backslide. But,
but I do wanna have you guys speak
to,
you guys have free resources. You guys have
some pretty amazing paid resources. I'm pretty sure
there is a is there a new, is
a book that is available or almost available?
Speak to,
speak to all of these things, and we
can include the link in the show notes.
The answer is yes, there is a book.
(45:39):
It's called building true intimacy.
It's really about taking what we learn working
with so many couples in recovery from day
one really to kinda when they were graduated,
we got to kick them out of the
nest
and seeing what it took for those couples
to go from absolute chaos Mhmm. To incredible
relationships. I mean, we were talking marriages that
(45:59):
truly everyone was jealous of because of how
close they were And the kind of things
you're like, if you knew the backstory, you'd
never believe it. And so we really wanted
because when we went through this, the kind
of idea was like, who knows how couples
get there, but good luck. And so we
really have always been passionate about creating resources
that help couples go from a to b
(46:19):
really, really efficiently. Yeah.
How wonderful was that podcast? The Rab Smiths,
for those of you who haven't heard them
speak before, it was just so much passion,
so much energy that they bring into this
field. There's so many couples that they're helping
through a very difficult process. And in the
show notes, you're gonna find three links. One
is for their free resources that they offer.
The second is for their book and then
(46:40):
the third is for their renewing us program.
If you are in a stuck place and
you're looking for help to kind of advance
your relationship,
check out the renewing us program. Link is
in the show
notes. Thanks for listening to this episode. If
you are a high achiever of the sex
addiction and you're looking for a recovery group
full of like minded men, visit successfuladdict.com.
(47:01):
We provide men with a recovery mastermind group
using four day retreats,
weekly group calls, and daily accountability check ins.
If you wanna achieve long term sobriety and
save your marriage, go to our website, fill
out our application.
If you enjoyed this episode, please pass it
along to a friend in recovery who would
benefit from listening. It is my mission to
get this information
(47:22):
out to as many high achievers as possible,
and I can't do it without your help.
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